The Rewatchables - ‘Crimson Tide’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan do not concur, and therefore must stage a mutiny to rewatch Tony Scott’s thrilling 1995 film ‘Crimson Tide,’ starring Denzel Washington, Gene Hackman, and Viggo Mortensen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The list just keeps going and going. Check out all those. Seal the bay! Seal the bay! Crimson Tide is coming up next. This summer. This is the captain. We have orders to launch our missiles.

This is not a drill. The battle for survival. Sir, we don't know what this message means. I've made a decision. We'll be fought by two men. If we're wrong, a billion people are going to die. We are a ship of war. We'll see their duty differently.

We're here to preserve democracy. about to practice. Don't get on the water. Denzel Washington. Do not remove that firing trigger. Gene Hackman. I'm the commander of this ship. Crimson Tide.

God help us all. Rated R. Starts Friday, May 12th. Man, what a satisfying movie. Sean Fantasy is here. Chris Ryan is here. It is the 25th anniversary. Crimson Tide, a movie that had Denzel Washington in it and Gene Hacked in it and Tony Scott directing it.

And was really the tail end of Simpson, Bruckheimer. and all the stars were aligned. There was a lot of buzz. The movie came out. It was great. Everybody loved it. It made a lot of money.

The end. What did I miss, Sean? Wow. We just moved way too quickly past one of the most incredibly enjoyable movies made in the last, I don't know, in the last half century. I mean, where is this on the list of the most fun rewatches that we could possibly do on this show? Chris, this is a longtime Chris Ryan all-star this movie.

I was just saying, Craig, before we started recording that this might be. be the leader in the clubhouse for the movie, I will restart as soon as it's over. Or at least go back and watch some of my favorite scenes right after I finish this movie. It's, I think it all comes down to whether intentionally or not, because it had a lot of different screenwriters working on it. It is a perfect, perfect script. Yeah. Like if somebody was against this movie, I would just be confused. You should put this on the ringer questions that we ask potential hires. what do you think of crimson tide that's good it doesn't matter when it came out it came out in

1995 it could come out right now i don't think there's a single modern advancement that would have affected this movie in any way um it moves perfectly doesn't really drag it's got two iconic actors going head to head in like a real way and i think that was probably part of the appeal for both of them even being in this movie and then tony scott at the stage of his career when he's just like, I'm going to up the degree of difficulty here. I'm going to make a sub. I'll make a sub really exciting. How am I going to do that?

I'll figure it out. And then an all-star cast, like, this is where it gets into Sean Katnip, an all-star cast of just weirdo, famous screenwriters coming in to just work on a scene. This was like the apex of Robert Town. Hey, Robert, I'll wire you $100,000 if you can fix this seed for us. It's the heavy bag of script punch-ups. Oh, man, where was William Goldman? He must have been on vacation when they needed like the one hackman thing.

It's got all the stuff we like in one movie, basically. One thing that's missing, though, there's how many female characters total in this movie? Just Denzel's wife? Yeah. Denzel's wife. And that's it. She only gets to mouth her line. She doesn't actually get to say it.

She's like, where are you going? So, no, it does not pass the Bechdel test. It's the most male movie probably ever made, right? It's got over 100 actors and they're all guys. It's amazing. It's way up there. It does, God, it just feels like it's in a test tube for the rewatchables, though. It gives us a chance to talk about the biggest and best movie stars.

I think Tony Scott is currently the leader in terms of most movies that have been tackled on the rewatchables. Either Scott or Michael Mann. And I think this is Tony Scott at his, you know, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but this is like him at the peak of his powers with what he's able to do as a storyteller. And yeah, we got all that fun behind the scene stuff about who came in to punch up this story.

It's such a fun, propulsive movie. Movie critics always use that pat phrase on the edge of your seat, but I literally was again on the edge of my seat in the second hour of this movie. I was like, holy shit, where is this going?

I've seen it 25 times, but I was still completely locked in. The thing I think that makes this movie so successful if I had to like boil it down. And it goes back to the script is that it's an and then script, not a because script.

Like most action movies or thrillers are basically a buffet line of cool set pieces and cool moments. But even in like really good action movies, you'll have moments where you're just like, well, this doesn't have anything to do with that. You know, like there is not an ABC, D, E.

It's like A, L, R, S. This movie literally, literally nothing happens unless something happens right before it. You know what I mean? Like Hunter and Weps go to a birthday party in the first scene.

That matters throughout the entire fucking movie that Vigo Mortensen and Denzel Washington were at the same birthday party. It comes up like three or four times in terms of character behavior, decisions that they make.

And you could actually teach it in a class. There is like, forget Chekhov's gun. It is Chekhov's every single line and gesture in this movie winds up mattering. You know, if we did the rewatches,

like an award show for the rewatchables. I don't know how we would do that or what the criteria would be and how we figured it out. But I do think Tony Scott would win the first director award. Just consistently amazingly rewatchable. And you know,

you could see why Tarantino had so much affection for him when we did the rewatchables. And speaking of Tarantino, he was the one who pointed out that Tarantino and Tony Scott as like a team, he felt like was the most underrated

team of all the teams. They did four movies. This is the first one. And in each one, as we covered in a previous pod, a different version of Denzel. This is upstart, Denzel. This is respectful, upstart, trying to work his way up, trying to respect authority, but at the same time, a man of real conviction, Denzel. Nothing in common with Unstoppable Denzel, man on fire, Denzel. What was the fourth one I'm blanking on? Deja vu. Deja vu. Deja Ja-vo. Yeah, there you go. So, good collaboration here. And also, there's a Tarantino connection, because he actually is one of the many people who does rewrites on this. So it's Tarantino, Robert Town. And who is the third one? Well, the credited screenwriters, is it Michael Schiffer,

correct? Yeah. So the credited screenwriter is a guy named Michael Schroeder. Steve Zalian. Right. Three of like the top seven screenwriters ever, top eight, top ten. They all have Oscars. Yeah. All of Famers. Denzel's at a really weird point in his career in a good way. He, so he does Malcolm X in 92. Pelican brief in 93, which doesn't go the way people wanted it to go, especially because they had to cut the love scene out because America sucked in 1993 and they didn't want Julian Denzel to consummate, whatever.

Still a big hit, though. Big hit, but frustrating movie. Philadelphia, which, you know, him first. versus Hank's. It's crazy that they're in the same movie, really in their primes. Denzel's character is not aged that well in that movie, but it's a really good performance. Then two years passed and then he rips off Crimson Tide, Virtuosity, Devil in a Blue Dress, Courage, Under Fire, and the Preacher's Wife, all in a row. And basically everything just keeps going all the way through Remember the Titans and Training Day, 2001. It's a 10-year run of just

successful, awesome picks, awesome choices. What do you, Sean, what do you think he was searching for here in the mid-90s? Because it does seem like the Hacklin piece was a big piece for him. I think that this is really the first time that he pursues mainstream movie stardom. This is the end of phase one and the beginning of phase two for him. So he still wants to do something that seems sort of prestigious. And this is a great script and it's a cool movie. But it is a, it's a mainstream action thriller.

It's not, you know, it's not working with Spike Lee. It's not Mississippi Massala. It's not looking for a kind of deeper meaning or a cultural subtext. It's a, it's a down the middle two big stars squaring off against each other, which is, we talked about this on enemy of this date, one of the hallmarks of late Hackman. And Denzel knows that in order to be the sort of the biggest possible star he can be, he has to start taking on more movies like this.

And it's funny because you could make the case that on the, back half of his career. He takes on too many movies like this and maybe not enough Malcolm X's, but he clearly made a choice here where he was like, I need to find commercial filmmakers and work with them because he's best known here for Glory and Malcolm X. And he makes movies like Ricochet, but he hasn't fully committed to this idea. And this is the start of the new Denzel. Yeah, he finds his otor for those kinds of movies. It feels like Denzel Washington is somebody who is really comfortable with a certain caliber of filmmaker. And Antonio Scott, he kind of found his, the action version of maybe the Spike Lee on the drama side, the person that he

really trusts. To take it back to Tarantino when I was watching this last night, I was thinking back to the Muso and Frank scene and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood with Al Pacino and the way that he kind of talks about the hurdles you have to clear as a movie star and the ways in which you can slip too. But I was thinking so much about this is a movie that you do to show that you are the next Hackman. You go through Hackman, you go through the guy to be the guy. And I think that even in the movie itself, I would love to know the notes that Bruckheimer and Simpson gave about what these characters were allowed to do to each other. Like, he's allowed to be this racist, this much racist, but not totally racist. Or Denzel's allowed to, like, beat him psychologically and mentally, but he

never punches him. He never, like, physically harms Ramsey. You know, like, there are these rules that the script seems to play by, that the movie seems to play by, and I wonder if a lot of that is tied up in the persona of the movie stars. So Denzel defeats Wesley Snipes. Market corrects them completely by around 93. It's basically those two going toe to toe for all the same parts. And then from, I would say Philadelphia on, I would say he's the first pick for basically any,

first of all, any movie where they're looking for a blackout, actor, but then movies like this where you, and we'll go into it with casting what ifs, it's all the A-listers. And I still feel like if he's not the first pick, he's one of the first names discussed. I think there's, by 95, it's very clearly him and Hanks. And Russell Crow's coming, you know, in a couple years. Costner has kind of already happened. And I'm trying to think, is there anybody else?

What's Cruz doing? Cruz and Will Smith. Will Smith hasn't happened yet and Cruz. Yeah, I guess so Cruz would be the third one. And ironically, this is a cruise part, the Denzel part, but it's a completely different performance and trajectory. You know, but it would be the, he would have definitely a few good bend it up a little bit, been a little more brash.

There would have been, that guy would have been more sarcastic. I actually think this is one of my favorite Denzel performances of all of them. He really, he plays it all perfectly. the thing he has with the respect, but what he can do with his eyes at the same time where it's like, I'm following the order of how my job is, but I don't really feel this way deep down inside.

He's one of the few guys that could pull it off. You know what I mean? It's a subtle face performance movie because Hackman is the same way. There are two guys who do a lot without saying a lot. And Hackman's self-regard early in the movie the way that he is sort of philosophizing and then looking at Denzel's face every time

Hackman goes into something and then later in the movie, right before they have their showdown, the subtle insinuations that they're communicating to each other with very little dialogue is amazing. And there's great dialogue in this movie and it's a fun talking movie, but the impact of the tension, I think, is all built around Hackman knowing how to, how to just very powerfully deliver how angry he is about something without saying a word. You could say that the first hour of this movie is like one of the best workplace movies ever made, you know, just the amount of stuff that gets communicated in the officer's mess scene when they're sitting talking about Von Klauschwitz or just anytime they're doing a walk-and-talk

and Gene Hackman is giving him kind of like, man, fuck you look. Like, because you're, I can, I can feel you defying me even if you're not explicitly saying it. I was really struck this time by how quickly it goes bad. There is actually not very, they don't have, they don't spend very long on Hunter and Ramsey getting along. They pretty much go wrong right after that first dinner. And you can even see seeds of it before that. You can see seeds of it and would like,

oh, am I reading this right? You went to Harvard? You know, everything also, with it being Washington, it has a layer of racial tension in there. And they aren't really afraid of it, but they also don't explicitly say it. Yeah. That three minutes when they're waiting

to see they can fix the radio or not right at the end, which I know we'll talk about later. Everything Denzel and Hackman do in that one part where it's like, all right, I guess we're going to wait two minutes. Denzel sits down. He's been hitting the face twice. He's so fucking mad, but he's trying not to be mad.

And, you know, in the wrong hands, that would have been such a bad scene. He would, like, the Denzel character would have stared down Hackman or done something too. He's so subtle about it. Like, it's almost kind of awkward. He doesn't want to stare at it.

him too long, but they clearly are sizing each other up. And he's just, everything about it is really good. I was actually surprised that he didn't get Oscar attention for this. Because it does feel like this was, like what's a 1960s movie? Like the Kane Mutiny, 1950s like that era. Like it does feel like it could be that kind of movie. Like it easily could have been a stage play. It is also right out of a historical playbook.

two really famous submarine movies in the 50s. And Run Silent Run Deep is very similar to this movie. Tarantino, I think, added references to this and as part of his punch-up. The Run Silent Run Deep is Clark Gable, who's about 15 years older than Bert Lancaster. It's very similar in the dynamic. The roles that those two characters in that movie play, the sort of attempting to upend the power but not directly confronting the captain of the sub. And I mean, the other thing to consider here, and I know that the Oscars doesn't always get it right,

but there are not a lot of movies that are led by two two-time Oscar winners. And this is a rare moment when you get a mega showdown. Like there are no movies that star Tom Hanks going toe to toe with Daniel Day Lewis. They just don't exist. So you very rarely get this. And then the subtle thing, and I couldn't think of another example of this, maybe you guys can. you get a Jason Robard scene at the end of the movie, and you've got three two-time Oscar winners

toe-to-to-to in one scene. I couldn't think of one other scene in movie history that featured three two-time winners. How many Oscar winners are in the beginning of enemy of the state when Jason Robarts is that scene? It's like him and John Voigt probably. Did John Voight ever win an Oscar? I don't think so.

I thought he won for coming home. He did. Did he? Okay, how he won for coming home? No, that's a really good point. Sean, this is essentially like what would happen if they made a submarine action movie out of the heat diner scene. I mean, they never shy away from the confrontation at this movie.

And that's something that I think, you know, some films would be like, let's tease it or we're going to save it for the third act. And they just let these guys go at it for the entire film. You're right. It really does feel like a stage play. And then you add that it's Tony Scott right at that point in between the like sort of 80s and early 90s stuff he was doing that was gorgeous but kind of classical in his presentation to right when he's starting to crank the dial a little bit and he's just going to say, you know what? Every time we see Vigo Mortensen, you're just going to see fucking red light. That's it. And he's just cranking all the smoke coming out of all the hallways and everything is running up and down stairwells in this movie. And you can really see him starting to put

together the style that will come in for Enemy of the State and Man on Fire and the movies coming after it. The mid-noughties did have, it's a little like what happened with the NBA a year ago where the two guys would team up. And the, the, the, the, there's this movie era here, like around 93. And I think it almost starts with Hanks and Denzel, but then it's Denzel and Julia. They, they made, it would be this pair and that would be the sell of the movie. Even interview of the vampire was like that. It's like, Cruz, Pitt, you know, and, and I don't, it kind of faded away.

But then I remember when the departed brought it back in 06, it was like Scorsese, Damon, DeCaprio. I was like, all right, I'm in. I'm done. Just say that, I wonder why that doesn't happen as much anymore, why you don't have like these two gigantic stars who are just like, fuck it, let's do something. I mean, it's certainly the reason Ocean's 11 did so well.

They had more than two in that one. But to have the awesome poster is like half the battle. We don't have movie stars like that anymore. We don't have, I mean, what is the equivalent? We do have Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans in the Marvel movies together, but they don't carry the same weight that something like Hackman and Denzel carry. And Denzel had spent the last 10 years basically building his resume and emerging as one of the best actors of his generation.

And then he gets to go toe to toe with, where's Hackman in the conversation at this point? You know, I mean, he's really, he's in the top five. It's after Unforgiven. So he's really still on his victory lap there. We gave him a lot of love. So here's the Oscars for 96 for the 95 movies. This was the year Braveheart won. Best Picture and Best Director

Has not aged wonderfully for a variety of reasons but especially like We were talking about whether we should do Braveheart for the rewatchables and we all kind of voted no It's like eh It's like a two or three scene movie

It's like the battle scenes and one or two other scenes It's not like a let's fire a brave heart It's an NBA Jumbotron movie I think became its legacy Best actor Nick Cage leaving Las Vegas Our other nominees that year were Richard Dreyfus, Mr. Holland's opus. Yeah. Yes.

No, don't make a face, Sean. See, that's why we're not inviting you to the Mr. Holland's Opus rewatchables. Wow. You're not going to be in that one. Is that a one for us? I invite solo. Sad to miss out on that one. One for Bill?

Anthony Hopkins and Nixon. Inexplicable. Sean Penn, Deadman, Walking. And then the guy from El Pistino, say his name, Sean. I'm not going to attempt it. Massimo Trioisi. Troisi. Troisi?

So, best supporting actor, Spacey, usual suspects. James Cromwell and Babe. Ed Harris, Apollo 13, Brad Pitt, 12 Monkeys, Tim Roth, Rob Roy. This movie just got shut out. I mean, also, 95 is a really, really, it's a bad Oscars year historically. because the movies that came out that outlasted this movie, Seven and Heat and Casino and... Oh, yeah, Heet.

Clueless and, I mean, it's a really good movie year. It's a really good mainstream movie year. And we're celebrating some of them with 25th anniversaries this year on the show. And, like, Toy Story came out this year. There's a ton of stuff that has so aggressively outlasted, Il Postino and, you know, Braveheart. I mean, Apollo 13 is a good movie. That's a legit nominee.

Sean, is this also a case of like kind of classical Oscars thinking where a movie that comes out in May just has like a really hard time making noise like that? Maybe. I think that they just don't take movies like this seriously. We take movies like this really seriously on the show and the Oscars is just never going to take. I mean, Tony Scott just doesn't make Oscar winning movies, which is part of the reason why we're always relitigating them on this show. I recant my should have gotten an Oscar nomination because I forgot he came out this year.

Hey, Chris. Yeah. I had coffee with my. Callie a half an hour ago. What did we do with the reheat? I can't wait. We'll have to have a guest. We have to have a third person this time.

A couple other things about this movie. Denzel, once upon a time, he was asked, who are the most talented actors you've ever worked with? Gene Hackman was one. Angelina Joe Lee. Dakota Fanning. Really? Tough beat for Tom Hanks in the goat conference.

conversation. Denzel's like, eh. Well, he only named people who could not be fully compared to him. No one from his generation, two women and a screen legend who's got 20 years on him, which is a very, that scene, we know Denzel is very competitive.

You know, he's an he was athletic guy, love sports. He would never dare put Brad Pitt's name in that conversation. He would never put Hank's name in that conversation. Chris? You can get killed walking your doggy. Okay. motherfucker.

Sorry. So Denzel apparently not only took this movie because Gene Hackman was in it, but said, quote, he wanted the opportunity to be in there jousting with a master. It's so crazy how this is a recurring theme

and these rewatchables we do. Like every younger peer, Gene Hackman would have had is like, I just want to be in a movie with that guy. It's weird that he, doesn't get, I don't feel like the respect, like the way people talk about Brando, you know, and that level.

I'm not saying he was as good of an actor at Brando, but he's just never mentioned when we're talking about the greats, which will probably change when he dies. And everyone will be like, oh, my God, Gene Hackman was so great. And it would be this whole posthumous, you know, everybody going nuts about Gene Hackman for six months. Yeah, he doesn't do a lot of image maintenance. Obviously, he's pretty private. He's not courtside at Lakers games.

he doesn't do a lot of lifetime achievement award circuits kind of thing so it's really just the work with him he doesn't i was reading a bit about him last night and there was an interesting interview with owen wilson about working with him on was it behind enemy lines is that the movie that they made together yeah um and he Wilson said that hackman was one of his heroes and he really made that movie because he wanted to work with him and he he made an interesting point that i'd never really considered before about certain actors which is that jean hackman never does an accent he never changes his hair. He never wears prosthetics. He never transforms. And he still has the credibility of not just the movie star, but of a great actor. It's very rare that those big stars are

also considered great crafts people. And, you know, like Cruz, I think Cruz is a great actor, but we think of him primarily as a movie star. But Hackman, for whatever reason, his rep is, that guy is, he's a legendary performer. And I think that's part of the reason why. He's like, he maintains the Hackman quality, but he doesn't have to go out of his way. He's not showy. And he doesn't do the maintenance that Chris is talking about too.

I mean, he doesn't do interviews. Like, there's so few interviews with him. We don't know anything about his psyche, what he likes. We only know the movies he made. And he doesn't do that with the roles he chose either. I mean, he didn't play like a Nixon. You know what I mean?

Like, he doesn't do the flashy historical figures or people dealing with, like, illnesses or anything like that. Like, he's always just kind of played these ragged, guys and whether or not they were generals or sheriffs or private detectives or cops or whatever. Like he just was always himself. It's a really good point. Sometimes he'll grow a mustache. Yeah. That's well I have a Gene Hackman mustache in there.

So this had one of the best Wikipedia one sentence openers I've ever read for a movie. Crimson Tide is a 1995 American submarine film directed by Tony Scott and produced by Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer. Okay. Where do I donate my bone marrow? Sounds awesome. Then a little bit later in the same paragraph, there's political turmoil in the Russian Federation,

which ultra-national has threatened to launch nuclear missiles at the United States and Japan. The story parallels a real incident during the Cuban missile crisis. I'll bite aboard a Soviet rather than U.S. submarine. Great premise. How do we steal the Cuban missile crisis? and make it so it happens on an American sub where there might be a mutiny. Like, you just pitch that in a room.

People are like, here's 25 million. Go make this. Try to get whoever. Here's a list of A-list stars. Try to get two of them. We'll load the rest with that guys. We'll go get Tony Scott. We're done.

We're good to go. There's a really good cast in here. And I don't know who my favorite, oh, is. But I think it's Gandalfini, but don't sleep on Vigo. Oh, yeah. Some good early Vigo in this. Hey, we can't go a second further without talking about Daniel Van Bargan as Radchenko. This is, Van Bargan, not his first time on the rewatchables, man.

Lieutenant Nilsen on Basic Instinct. Oh, yeah. And we have a little George Junza. We have the guy for Bronx Tale. Lilo Brancato Jr. Yeah. What an IMDB for that guy. And then we have a whole bunch of people.

Oh, a little Rick Schroeder. We'll get into him later. Steve's on. We have a favorite of Chris, Hans Zimmer. Chris said it was his favorite Hans in a previous podcast, narrowly aging Hans Gruber. Won a Grammy Award for the main theme. And if you'll notice, if you listen carefully,

it's this, the music from this movie has been used a lot over the last 25 years. Most notably in football games, playoff games, ESPN profiles. Hans Zimmer's cleaning up. If he's getting royalties on all the times, this has been used for sports, he's doing very well. The movie made $157.3 million.

Raj, he's coming back. Three and a half stars. This is the rare kind of war movie that not only thrills people while they're watching it, but invites them to leave the theater actually discussing the issues. Does it? I don't really remember that part.

Did you guys, Did you guys have a lot of really thoughtful conversations about nuclear sub captains after this? Yeah. Don't be a crazy racist, war-happy submarine captain, I think is the big takeaway from this movie. My big takeaway was, that was fucking awesome. Should we just go back in the theater and see it again? Guys, I don't know who needs to hear this, but we need to have a conversation about our sub-captains. Captain Ramsey taught me to be weird.

I'm just trying to have the conversation, okay? Chris, if you staged a mutiny of Sean, how would it go? Who would you get behind you early? That's a great question. Would you go to Mallory right away? Or would you go under Mallory and then try to get her later when she's checkmated? No, well, I think what would happen is if I was trying to stage the mutiny, I would go to Mal and then I would be like, Mal, thank you. And she would be like, thank me.

Fuck you. Oh, man. Why aren't there more mutiny movies? What's more fun than a mutiny? It's the best premise you can have in a movie. I mean, this movie is very closely modeled on Mutiny on the Bounty, on like the original version and the 60s version and the two characters, the two captain figures in those movies are very similar here to Denzel and Hackman's characters.

I mean, it's not a remake, but it's really close in terms of the way that they shape the structure of the whole thing. It's a fun sports movie. premise if they did it like for the the NBA players playing in the pandemic and we had two sides and I don't know just throwing ideas out. I would like to see this with the NBA players union somehow. This would be like if Alvin Gentry shanked Steve Kerr or something, you know, from the bench. That's the version of this. Oh, a coaching thing. Phil Jackson, Doug Collins. That's right. It's a good Josh McDaniels, Bill Belichick. Oh, yeah. The old man's losing it. Tom, what if I can get

rid of Belichick, would you stay? And then Dante Scarnacia is the chief of the boat? He's George Descenza. He's Robards. Yeah. All right. Let's go to the, we'll take a break then. We'll go to the categories. Hey, if you like movies,

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reviews and previews about TV things that are happening. I did one this week. I broke down to Fennie Jacob with Amanda Davins. That is a new Apple TV Plus show, and it is enjoyably bad. It stars Chris Evans. It's not really good. I still like watching it. Can't really explain it.

But if you want to listen to that and hear all the different shows we talk about, it's probably between six to eight shows a week. You can subscribe to TV concierge exclusively on Spotify. Back to this podcast. All right. Most rewatchable scene. I don't know. I didn't know how to do this.

The whole movie is rewatchable. the first Hackman Denzel meeting have that in there when Hackman compares horses to high school girls. It's aggressive. Yeah, horses. They're a fascinating animals. Gum as fence posts, but very intuitive. In that way, they're not too different from high school girls.

They might not have a brain in their head, but they do know all the boys want to fuck them. They both know everyone wants to fuck them. Like, do they? Is that really horses are aware of that? Is that weird? They kill horses if recurring theme with Hackman's character of this. But that they're laying each other out. They're feeling each other out.

Denzel's playing it perfectly. But it's, he's, it becomes very clear to him like, oh, this guy's one of these guys. Keep my guard up with this guy. Next one, Hackman and Denzel again. The, the semi-confrontation post-fire in the bottom. The missile drill. The unexpected kitchen fire. Followed by Hackman running the missile drill.

And deads out and like it. That's when they start going. That's when the sparring really begins. I don't have any problems with questions or doubts. As I said to you before, I'm not seeking a company of kisshasses. But you've got something to say to me. You say it in private. And if privacy doesn't permit itself, then you bite your fucking tongue.

Are we clear about that, commander? Has it bell, sir. Those sailors out there are just boys. boys we're training to do a terrible and unthinkable thing. If that ever occurs, the only reassurance they'll have that they're doing the proper thing is going to derive from their unqualified belief in the unified chain of command.

That means we don't question each other's motives in front of the crew. It means we don't undermine each other. It means in a missile drill, they hear your voice right after mine without hesitation. That's kind of a Bill Simmons move, I feel like, to call the missile drill while the fire's going on, you know?

Like, that's the Bill Simmons 7am text. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Where's this podcast? You know, that's what, that's, get on, get on the move. Emergency pod after an earthquake. That's Bill. That's the Kauai pod. This hurts.

And that's true. Yeah. But guess what? It was the right idea. Sometimes you got to run the missile drill. Next one is Denzel talking to, to, uh, the guy, Danny Nucci about Silver Surfer, which is so clearly a Tarantino. Hey, Quentin, here's a suitcase of money.

Just can you write? Just a pop culture type scene. And I don't even totally understand what's going on in that argument. It's a little dated, but I enjoy it. I like all the nuances of it. Well, I said that the Kirby Silver Surfer was the only real Silver Surfer. And that the Mobius Silver Surfer was shit. And Benefield's a big Mobius fan.

He's got out of hand. I pushed him. He pushed me. I lost my head, sir. I'm sorry. Ravetti. You're a supervisor. You can get a commission like that.

Do you understand? Yes, sir. You have to set an example leaving in a face of stupidity. And everybody that reads comic books knows that Kirby's silver surfer is the only true silver surfer. Now, am I right or wrong?

You're right, sir. Then, the blow-up scene when Denzel relieves hack them. That's the one. Cobb, arrest this manner. Get him out of here. The operating procedures governing the release of nuclear weapons,

we cannot launch our missiles unless both you and I agree. Cob, what are you for? This is expressly. why your command must be repeated. It requires my assent. I do not give it. And furthermore, you continue upon this course

and insist upon this long. It requires my assent, I do not give it. And furthermore, you continue upon this course. It has, it has, when he gets relieved, the get Lieutenant Zimmer in here, which apparently was an homage to Han Zimmer. They named the guy Zimmer because they knew Han Zimmer

was, he must have sent them an early track of thing. Everything about it is great. sign me up for mutiny coming to a head scenes all day on the rewatchables. I'm in every time. Great overlapping dialogue where they're just like basically doing their speeches at the same time. And like, it's so good. And furthermore, you continue upon this course and insist upon this launch without confirming this message first.

I will be forced. Chief the boat. By the rules of precedent. As captain, commanding of the U.S. Alabama, I order you to place XO under a six-S. The Navy regulations. I say again, I order you to replace. command under arrest under charge of mutiny.

How tall is Hackman, do you think? 5-11. They do some camera stuff with them where sometimes they try to make it seem like he's taller than Denzel in the scenes, but I feel like in real life, they're probably pretty equal. When he hits him in the last conversation, Denzel's standing on like the platform of the of the con and Hackman's standing below him, but when he hits him, it kind of like, it looks like he's leveled with him.

So I don't know what Tony Scott was doing. He's definitely up to some camera chicanery in that. I think all the top, top gun Tom Cruise stuff must have fucked him up where he's like everybody's got to stand down these Apple boxes or Tom's always got lifts or whatever, you know? They do a good job in this scene too where they, he does like little a couple quick cuts to everybody kind of watching

because there's a moment when this is happening. If you're just in the sub, we're like, holy fucking shit. Like what is happening right now? It's the whole thing. It's the whole thing is that... Everybody's just kind of paralyzed watching it. It's don't disagree with me in public. And like that whole thing, like, I mean, when you know that that scene happens, when you go back and rewatch it, it's really interesting that Denzel starts, Hunter, as soon as the fire happens, Hunter starts saying publicly, like, why is he running a drill right now?

And he kind of starts in a weird way. Like, Hunter never totally, like, respects the chain of command there. Like, I obviously am like, like, agree with Hunter. But, like, he does start, like, chipping away. him in public pretty early in the movie. X-O Hunter, are we sure he's good? Yeah. Are we sure he had a point?

Coming up next! I had that coming up later. I have a whole Hunter take. Should I do it now? Yeah. But you got to do it as coward. Can I do it as Will Kane? Coming up next, I'm going to tell you

why Hunter was actually in the wrong. Listen, you're in a sub. There's a chain of command. And it's the military. That's it. If you're going to question the lead dog, you can't do it with one other person around you. It's a complete mistake.

He's doing it in a room with other people. It's like the one rule in any military movies, don't do that. So he's going to lose Hackman from that point on. It's a done deal. And it's weird that he's so methodical in the first 30, 40 minutes of the movie, sizing everything up and kind of soaking it in. And then I think that's a misfire by him. personally. Let me ask you this. Do you think that Hackman's character purposefully draws out

that that approach from Hunter? Like, in all of the insinuations and comments that he makes, and then that debate that they have about the necessity of war, do you think that he's actually trying to get him to defy him? Because he likes that psychological game. Well, he does, it's the whole problem of when he explains the Von Kloschrist's thing, and he's like, they didn't, they didn't want me to know why. They just want him. me to pull the trigger. And every time Washington is asked to do something, he does kind of ask why. He asks why they're doing a missile drill right after there's been a fire. He asks why we can't go up and get the message if we know that there is half a message up there just to confirm it.

And he's got all this, he's got answers for everything. But Hackman is like, I am, I am singular in my pursuit of following this order. But here's what does it make sense. Hackman hired him. He wasn't foisted on him. So it almost would have made sense if they had added a scene near the beginning where Hackman wants to hire somebody else. And they're like, no, no, you're going to hire Denzel. He's a guy on the rise. We got to get him in there or whatever reason they would have wanted to do where it's

established in the first 20 minutes. It's like, this isn't totally Hackman's guy. Because then it would make sense why he's testing him. I don't understand why you would test somebody that you hired and you want to succeed unless year a deranged racist maniac, which maybe... Well, it does seem like time was of the essence there. Because Radchiko was fueling his birds, baby. Yeah, that's true.

Limited time. That scene's awesome. It's just really great. Everything about it, the music, the way it's directed. Next one is... It's a little hacky action movie, but I still like it when they're fighting the sub. Something gets fired at them. They fire back.

They hit the sub. Classic Tony Scott. Everyone cheers with like the crescendo of the music. And then it's like a pause that's like, wait a second. They were able to get off footboard torpedo. And then it hits him. There's water coming in down below. Things start dropping.

Our guy George Zunza's like down to 18,000. 175, 17. And it's just like, just you got me. got me with this. You got to have a scene like that in every submarine movie. There has to be a moment when it seems like the sub is going down and you have to save it. And even still, I was like, man, are they going to go down? Like, I couldn't remember what happened when I was watching it.

They cut it really close. And that is, I think, when the movie, right around then is when the movie goes to real time pretty much. Like the last hour of the movie is pretty much an hour on the submarine. So you really feel that drop. And of course, I'm sure what you're going to say next is the bilge bay scene. Yeah, I have, well, as part of that scene, that's Seal the Bay and Rick Schroeder. Really going for it. Really going for it.

Now seal a goddamn bay before we all go down. Some would say this is how he got NYPD Blue. When they're like, hey man. Some might say, yeah. Say, hey man, check out, check out his work. And I got an early cut of crimson tie. Look at him in the seal the bay scene. Next scene is Vigo versus Gandolfini versus Zimmer.

Vigo's big scene Fico's great in this great Figo I don't know where you guys staying on Vigo Complicated relationship Okay My wife went out of her way

To be like Whoa What a fucking babe Because he's so young And you're not used to seeing him Now used to see him As like Aragorn And Lord of the Rings or whatever

And he's very baby faced In the movie But I think he's pretty great He's like He's the pivotal character In the movie He does It is notable

That his accent Is popping a couple of times in this movie because there's like, if I were like on the submarine with him, I'd be like, what are you Amish? Like, what do you is? Like, he has a couple of Dutch like kind of like little, little accent flourishes. This has Chris's favorite line. You don't put on a condom unless you want to fuck.

Rachenko is fueling his burst. Now, why do you think he's doing that? Why? You don't put on a condom unless you're going to fuck. I have that tattooed on my back, actually. I remember when, uh, when HR had to talk to Chris. be like, stop motivating the rigor and poise by yelling that at him.

You can't do that anymore. Hey, should I blog about this? No, no. You don't log into WordPress unless you want to blog. And then it also has the disa mutiny, Peter. There's only two sides to a mutiny.

There's a lot of like Denzel just where he clearly just like, hey, can I have a couple just Denzel lines. Just throw me a couple. A couple like that could potentially be in a high school yearbook. I like all this. How do we feel about Zimmer?

Matt Craven? He's going to come up and recasting couch later. I think him and Rocky Carroll are perfect together as kind of like these guys who run up and down the hallway with envelopes. It's just like such a great bit. It's a really weird pivot for Rocky Carroll, who to that point I knew as Joey from Rock. Remember rock on Fox?

Yeah. And to see him in uniform is really weird. But you know, those two guys, then they get paired off on NCIS for years and years. I mean, they've been catching checks off of those shows for 15 years. Shout out to my dad, who's so delighted right now that NSIS came up. Two more rewatchable scenes. Hackman takes the boat back. includes an iconic

extra second and half stare by Denzel at Vigo. Just stares right through him, gives him a little extra and then walks away. And then the final confrontation, which I'm going to pick as my most rewatchable scene because there's so many pieces. Includes Hackman hitting him. Hackman just taking off the,

I'm not going to be a racist sign. He's just like, fuck it. I'm just going to become an awful person. The God help if you're wrong, if I'm wrong, we're at war. God help us all. God help you if you're wrong. If I'm wrong, then we're at war. God help us all.

And then the three minutes of them just kind of staring at each other, waiting for the radio thing. And then the drama of the final message being revealed, which I like how they did it where you actually don't, they're verifying that it's true, but you don't know actually what happened. This is a pretty unassailable seven minutes of greatness for, What do you got for most rewatchable?

I think my most rewatchable is actually is the first mutiny because it's because the overlapping dialogue because they're fueling their missiles. We don't have time to fuck around! It just like it just gets so torqued up. And I know the Lippon-Zall, it's on her stallion scene is kind of the famous one.

But I love the way that those guys go after each other in that first mutiny. I agree. I feel like that's definitely my favorite part of the movie and it feels like the whole movie turns on that scene. But even the moment, right before you see that it's going to go haywire when Ramsey is like Mr. Hunter, I've made a decision.

I'm captain of this boat. Now, shut the fuck up! And as soon as Hackman yells, you're like, whoa, what's going on here? And the movie just completely changes. We're all very well aware of what our orders are and what those orders mean. They come down from our commander-in-chief.

They contain no ambiguity. Mr. Hunter, I've made a decision. I'm captain of this boat. Now, shut the fuck up! next time I like mildly push back on something in a Zoom meeting, you should do that. I will totally go along with it. When I'm like, do you guys want to put this pot out on Tuesday?

Chris, I've made my decision. Now, shut the fuck up! What NBA owner is the most likely to have yelled that at somebody? Tillman Fertita. Oh, yeah. Mickey Arison? Oh, Mickey Arison's a good one. Yeah.

What's age the best? Just some classic Tony Scott moments. like the clearly somebody challenged them like I bet you can't make a really captivating two minute montage of a sub going into the ocean and Tony Scott's like challenge accepted calls Hans Zimmer he's like can you give me some fucking awesome a sub slowly descending into the ocean and disappearing music because I've got something special plan I don't know how he makes that interesting I'm trying to think of like three directors ever who could have made two minutes of a sub

just disappearing into water. It's a possible. Probably Spielberg and McTiernan. McTiernan showed it. He did hunt for October, which I hope is a rewatchables one day. And then Spielberg is probably the only other guy who has that idea of how to show space

and make you feel both claustrophobic, but also understand like you're in the middle of the ocean like that. I think the big key to that, and if Spielberg did it, he would use John Williams to score it. And Tony Scott gets to use Hans Zimmer's music to score a, giant metal machine moving down into the ocean, which you're right, Bill, could have been so

boring, and he makes it riveting. Good. Just classic 90s, Tony. In the first Denzel hackman argument, Denzel rattles off another Denzel line. In my humble opinion, in the nuclear world, the true enemy is war itself. He's got like seven of those. He clearly, maybe he pushed for 20, and they maybe negotiated it down to seven, but some great ones there. Vigo, when he knows he's going to refuse the launch, they cut to Vigo. It's just bid cigarette. I know Chris love that. So many guys crushing Marlboro Reds on this fucking boat underwater.

I mean, like in 95, I know that like there were smoking sections in restaurants. Yeah. There doesn't seem to be a smoking section of this submarine. No, no way. I just want to give George Jenza's IMDB because he keeps coming up. The highlights include Deer Hunter, No Way Out. He's the wheelchair guy, basic instinct who we covered, Crimson Tide, and then OG Law and Order.

The lowlights include he's in about 200 TV shows, and he was the co-lead and the Rape of Richard Beck with Richard Crenna in 1985, TV movie. It's an actual TV movie. I encourage you to watch the trailer. It's really disturbing. Yeah, the rape of Richard Beck. So his career is all over the map.

Is that one that you've seen, or did you just kind of start YouTubeing George Zunda? I was looking at his IMDB and I was like, what the fuck is this? And went and found it. Can I read the plot summary of the rape of Richard Beck? Yeah, let's hear it. Richard Beck played by Richard Krenna is a police detective who believes that rape victims are, quote, asking for it. When he himself is raped by two male suspects, he comes to question that belief. Wow.

It's a what's age the worst. Yeah, that movie actually happened. If you go on YouTube, there's a two-minute trailer of it, and it's fucking bad shit bonkers. So it was May 27th, 1985, Bill. So should we do a 35th anniversary rewatchables? Listen, as we've discussed many times in the rewatchables, there's just an incredible amount of cocaine going on from like 80 to 86. And it fueled a lot of bad decisions. Is that one for Bill?

Is that one for Sean? Like, I just got to, I got to keep the staff. That's right here. That's one for nobody. As Chris mentioned, another what's age the best. The last 60 minutes is basically in real time, which I think you could have argued might have inspired snake eyes with Johnny Depp. And it's so great with Weps doing the clock.

And it's just such a great, yeah, visual cue. And then Sean, another what's age the best, you mentioned just robards, uncredited, just comes flying in off the top rope. Incredible. And just throw it 100 for, like, Like 90 seconds. Yeah, it's good.

Any other What's Age the Best? My What's Age the Best is actually also what's age the worst for me. But in terms of the way it's used in the movie, I'm going to say, What's Age the Best is the EAMs. Because it's great to have a message that three people have to read out loud, you know, that they all have to confirm and concur. And you've got to take it from one guy and run it down the hallway to another guy.

It's like a great, like, the only other thing is like the Hudsucker proxy where the letters go flying up the tubes where I could think of something that was so cool cinematically. But that being said, it's disturbing to think that that was what nuclear holocaust was hinging on was whether or not this email came through

their radio tower and three guys got to like crack open a thing to concur. So I thought it was, but I thought in terms of cinema, like the EAMs were really awesome. And jumping off on that, I think the thing that's aged the best is the opening title card

and the closing title card and the fact that, you know, the movie opens with the three most powerful people in the world are the president of the United States, the president of Russia, and the captain of a U.S. nuclear marine submarine. And at the end of the movie, we learned that on January 1st, 1996, a captain of a nuclear submarine no longer has the authority to fire a nuclear bomb. And when I watched a making of this movie, and you can imagine how Bruckheimer and Simpson sold this movie to the studio, but,

Bruckheimer almost word for word in the featurette says that opening title card. And you can see that that's how he titillated the studio to get excited about the movie. He's like, ladies and gentlemen, do you know who the three most powerful people in the world are? And then they're like, well, who, Jerry? And he's like, I'll tell you right now. Number one, the president of the United States. Number two, the president of Russia. And number three, a nuclear submarine captain. And he's like, all in his selling zone. It's great. And Don Simpson's like, and I'm number four. I was going to say Dodd Simpson's like

Flowing in nine lines. Is that really true the top three in 95? Well, they changed it. I would have put David Stern in there. What's aged? What's age the worst?

Soutle, but this was a really, really, really awesome big screen movie. And I don't care how big your TV is. It's just not the same. It's to see that fucking sub on a 70-foot screen, just the way it's shot. This one was really great in the theater.

And sadly, they were going to re-release this in the theater. There were a couple 95 anniversary movies that were supposed to come out in April and May before the pandemic hit. But this was one of them. And I actually probably would have gone and watched this in the theater because it just is perfect. Great. And there's a few like that. I feel like Jurassic Park is another one that's like that. Maybe we can get Quentin to do a Tony Scott marathon at the new Beverly, you know,

and pay tribute to his stuff and see his movies on the big screen when we're all back to going to movies. I'm in on that. Another would stage the worst. The guy in charge of saving the world who has to fix the radio is the fuck up from the Bronx tale. That guy, Lolo Brancato. It's just tough. In real life, didn't work out as well. Hackman threatened to kill him.

somebody never sat right with me. It's like beyond a nitpick where he pulls the gun on Vigo and Vigo's like, and then he's like, fuck, you're the only one who knows the code. I'm going to shoot this guy instead. Feels like that would have come up in the report with Robards near the end. Like, is it true? True, you pull the gun on a couple people? Like, that was weird.

I don't know. Sounds like you guys are fine with it. Whatever it takes, Bill. Okay. And then I have this as a Wood's edge. the worst instead of a nitpick. Hackman just going faux racist at the tail end.

I'm still not positive why that happened or if that was the right choice. Would that guy just be that overt about being a fucking asshole and being a racist? Especially when there's black people on the boat. Yeah, he's probably getting egged on a little bit by Gandalfini's character. And that's the thing is like Docherty in this movie,

I feel like on the page is like, yeah, and then Doherty pulls a gun. and Gandalfini adds like, what if I pull a gun and I'm clearly sexually aroused by the fact that I've done this? Can I do that? Like every time he's in a Tony Scott movie,

he plays such a fucking scumbag. Like he's just like greased up and just like, yeah, is there going to be a counter mutiny because that's what's up. Like he just is like a wrestling character. Oh, he's coming up later. Casting what ifs.

Chris, this is for you. because you're the only person I know who might be 95% as excited as I was about this fact. Simpson and Bruckheimer originally offered Val Kilmer, one of the headlining roles. But Kilmer declined. Years later, Kilmer noted it was one of the few films that he wished he had agreed to be in. The role offered Kilmer was never formally specified. So what role was it? Has to be Vigo.

Oh, so you think it was Vigo or you don't think it was Hunter or Ramsey? or you don't think it was Hunter? I think it was Hunter. I think that's why he turned it down is because it wasn't big enough. What's interesting is he could have played every part in this movie except for Hackman.

Like he easily just could have been Crazy Gandalfini's character, right? He could have done all those. Pacino. Yes. Meaning Al Pacino. Yeah. Was not Dan.

Not Dan or Frank Pacino, but Al Pacino was originally offered the role of Captain Ramsey. Hackman's character. Mr. Hunter, I've made my decision. I'm captain of this boat. No, shut the fuck up! I got the nuclear codes

a half an hour ago! This is right in his Vincent Hanna zone where he would have dialed it up to 90. You know who that is? Vladimir Rancenko. Okay, motherfucker. Oh, man. It's just never going to get old.

They'll get old for the audience, but not for us. So then the subcasting one for this was that Brad Pitt wanted to play Hunter when he thought Pacino might be Ramsey. And then when Patino dropped out, Brad Pitt was like, I'm good. So there's a lot of weird variables with this. Another one, Sean, you'll like this one. Warren Beatty was courted by Simpson and Bruckheimer. And it ended up not happening.

another in a long line of Lauren Beatty making someone think that he might take a part for over a year and just flirting with them and trying to seduce them and trying to be seduced and then at the end of the day just saying like actually no I'm good. It's the same thing that happened with the

Bert Reynolds part in Boogie Nights. He did the same thing to PTA. And that I think that's a bigger miss. As much as I like Bert Reynolds at Boogie Nights, I think Warren Beatty would have been credible in that movie. I don't think he would have been good in this movie. I think he would have been too like,

I agree. Cerebral and kind of weird and be like, oh, you're like slippings on or stallions? I don't think he would have gotten a military haircut. Just wouldn't have worked. The next person who passed would have worked, and it's a good what if I'm still happy with Hackman,

but Tommy Lee Jones. Yeah. In the Hackman part. He kind of does this in under siege, though. True. I feel like he could have played most Hackman part. and at least batted 320 with some homers

and done a reasonable hackman. And then, according to a Don Simpson interview, and God knows what he did before the interview, Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise. Conducted at Santa Anita racetrack. Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise were considered for Denzel's part. Cruz makes sense because I think Cruz

was the first phone call for every part like this for 10 years. and you moved on the out of the line. But man, it worked out perfectly. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. There was some talk on the Groundhog Day pod about whether we changed this to the Stephen Tobelowski Award,

Ned Ryerson Award. We were going to convene Chris in. Do we leave it as the Joey Pants Award or do we mix it up? I'm into Toblowski. We can mix it up. We've been changing over to the categories recently. It could be the George Zunzo Award as well. No, he's George Zunzzi.

Senza. Is he? Yeah, he is. Okay. He is to me. To that guys here, Matt Craven is Zimmer. Technically he might be Matt Craven because of NCIS, but I still feel like at this point of his career, he's just that guy.

He was one of those guys forever. And then Danny Nucci is Danny, the Silver Surfer guy. I think that's a better one because I never knew what that guy's last name was, even though he's been in a shitload of stuff. I just know it was Danny. What do you think, Chris? Yeah, the only, I mean, like, I don't know if Ryan Philippi goes in that guy here because it's his first role

and you see him a couple times and you're like, is that who I think it is? And then he's off the screen. But yeah, I'd probably go Nucci here. The Vincent Hanna, great ass award. Who downloaded up the most in this movie? This award now sounds like it's about who has the best ass in the cast. And I don't know the answer to this. that. That's definitely

Philippi. Should we, what could it be instead of the great ass award, Chris? I think I coffee with

McCauley a half hour ago. Half hour go word. All right. I'll change that for future ones. Who dialed it up

the most in this movie? Hmm. I think Gandalfini. Step aside, Tommy. I'm sorry, sir. The Exo order. Fuck the XO. The ship has been

hit and I'm going in to see my captain. Now stand aside. stand aside. I had him for this and I had him for Deanne Waiters. Yeah, I would say that it's a you can really tell

that Rick Schroeder despite having tons of water poured on him is like, I am going to make the most out of closing this hatch. Yeah. But Gandalfini is just a gorgeous porchetta in this movie. He's just like hamming it up.

It's great. It's really fun to watch him belatedly in these pre-tony soprano parts. He's enjoyable in all of them. He was enjoyable in the moment. I think all of us had stock in him. I think from the moment he did true romance, it became clear.

Something was going to happen with him. But it's just fun to have him in movies like this. I think with Schroeder, you just kept waiting for him to go, Chip! Chip! Wake up, Chip! Wake up!

Seal of the Bay, Chip! I have a new... So we agree on Dan Waiters for Gandalfini. Yeah. I think that's the same duck. I have news. We have a new category. We're like 130 rewatchables then.

You never get too old to mix it up every once in a while. This is a category we should have had for a long time. It's a category that won't be in every rewatchables. It's only going to be movie appropriate. It's a category for best performance by a pet, which we're going to name the Brandy rating. Brandy was Brad Pitt's dog in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, the most recent great performance by a pet,

where I thought we would rate when we have a pet, a prominently featured pet, I thought we would rate from a 1 to 10 chewies on how the pet did. So Gene Hackman's Jack Russell Terrier, how many chewis would you give 1 to 10, Chris? For the performance? Yeah, the whole thing.

significance, performance, everything. I had him as a five. Oh, okay, because I would actually go even higher because I think it's like such an odd choice for a nuke commander to have a little Jack Russell dog that it immediately is like there's something a little off about this guy. And everybody just being like, yeah, he takes that dog

everywhere and the dog pisses in the hallways. It's the first sign you're like, is this guy got it all together still or is he lost it? And also like, it's those weird moments like where he just gets, has a mutiny conducted against him and then he comes back and he starts playing with his dog you're just kind of like what's up with this guy? So

I go with seven, seven chewyes. So one of the absolute funniest moments in this movie, maybe the funniest moment in the whole movie is right at the end after we finally get this final EMA and the captain announces

that there will be no missiles fired and Tony Scott throughout the movie keeps cutting to shots of people on the ship and he cuts to Danny Newt. and he cuts to Lilo Brancato. And then the third face that you see is the fucking dog in Captain Ramsey's quarters. And the dog is barking and excited that they're not firing any missiles. And it's hilarious.

It's like a perfect 90s movie moment. The dog is like, I get to hang out with this old man for two more years. So for that reason, we get eight chewies. Eight chewis from Sean. Bill, the one thing I just quickly ask is what are we looking at as like the base line great season from a dog or cat or animal actor. Like, are you talking about the cat and the godfather scene, opening godfather scene? Like, what are we, what's the great animal acting performance that we're judging this

against? Listen, it's a, you know it when you see it as we do each movie. If there's an animal in the movie, we have to, we have to talk. But I think the one thing is it should be a pet. So I think the godfather horse qualifies because cartoon was technically a pet. So much screaming on this one. I didn't expect that. I think if Pacino had been in the Hackman part,

the Jack Russell terror gets to attend because we would have had the Pacino scene where he's sitting there bummed out and the thing and be like, I've got dog piss in the hallway. I've got a crazy Russian threatening to blow up the sub. I got Jim Gandalfini.

wetting his balls off down the hallway. I'm sorry if the nuclear codes weren't ready in time. Bill, where does the Groundhog stand here from Groundhog Day? Does he qualify as a pet? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was probably five chewys. Okay. Because we didn't get any of the scenes where he actually bit Bill Murray.

If we had seen one of those, it might have been higher. Recast and couch, all apologies to Matt Craven. but I wish there was like a famous young 90s actor up and comer in that role. Johnson Riley. Yeah, or Brad Pitt or like Mark Wahlberg, like just somebody who was on the way up who hadn't really made it yet, but it would have been fun to see them in that part. Like, oh, man, Mark Wahlberg's in this? And I don't know who that is.

Honestly, could have been really anybody. It could have been Leo, for God's sakes. Affleck. Damon? Could have been a good shifty damper. in performance. So this is, this is right.

I think he's a little old for Hunter, but maybe he's actually the right age, but this is during Robert Downey Jr's sort of lost years. It's like right after Natural Born Killers. Oh yeah. And, you know, he obviously becomes one of the biggest

movie stars we've ever had in, in the next couple of decades. But this is, this would be kind of a cool moment for him. He kind of missed all these roles, you know, because he was sort of in the wilderness during this time of his life.

I have one more for recasting couch that I forgot to mention earlier. I don't know why Cuba Gooding wasn't in this movie. I think it's a huge miss. I could just see him in the sub. He would have been like kind of semi-comic relief.

Gandalfini definitely wouldn't have liked him. He could have done like two Cuba Gooding things during the movie. I just wish he had been about. Half As Internet research, Tarantino's two scenes were the silver surfer scene and then oh three scenes the Captain Kirk

Star Trek that whole thing which didn't really totally make sense but they went for it anyway and then the dialogue about the submarine films enemy below and run silent indeed so there you go speaking of Tarantino according to the 95 Premier Magazine

article that is not online whoever owns those rights call us we'll buy all the Premier magazine when Quentin Tarantino visited the set Denzel Washington confronted him about his use of the N-word in his films. Tarantino got embarrassed, wanted to move the conversation on a more private area. Washington said, no, if we're discussing it, let's discuss it now.

And then 17 years later, in GQ, Washington contacted Tarantino a few years later, apologized and said he was a fine artist. And Denzel's daughter worked with him on Django as a production assistant. So it all worked out. Sounds super awkward, though. A little bit of a Captain Ramsey XO Hunter situation there. We had mentioned Robert Town and Steve Zalien. This is my favorite one.

Chris, we may have to have you reenact this as Don Simpson. Robert Town received an urgent call from Don Simpson, Jerry Bruckheimer, one night regarding a key seat between Denzel and Hackman. They wanted him to rewrite the discussion on the nature of war between the two characters, sending up a more plausible potential for conflict for the rest of the film. Such was the urgency of the situation that town had to dictate his rewrite over the phone to Simpson and Bruckheimer as they recorded his words. Yeah.

So I have no idea whether Don Simpson called him from Bogota at like two in the morning. But if anybody wants a rendition of what it was like to get one of those phone calls, watch the dinner for five with David Milch that I think they're available. They're like on Amazon and YouTube and stuff like that. The one, it's like Michael Rappaport, Timothy Holofont, Jay Moore and David Milch with John Favro. And Milch tells an incredible story about getting one of those phone calls from Don Simpson about writing Bad Boys too, I think.

He sounds way worse than me. Oh, yeah. Did you think so? That's not a very good bar to set. Yeah. Well, it's just like, I'll send the 7 a.m. text or the 1130 text. Don Simpson's calling you demanding rewrites to be dictated on the phone at midnight. Let me assure you, you're a lot better than Don Simpson, Bill. If anybody hasn't done it,

I would encourage people to check out High Concept, which is a biography of Simpson and the work that they did in the movies that he and Bruckheimer made, which is a very salacious and fascinating book about what it was like to try to make movies in the late 80s and early 90s. Wow, you were doing a lot of cocaine. Robert Mueller in his director, years as director of the FBI, I would often quote Hackman's line in this movie, we're here to preserve democracy, not to practice it. It would be nice if people were quoting it now who are in charge of our country.

Also, your strategy managing the ringer. Yeah, I try. I do my best. There's a whole, I don't want to go down the whole deep dive of the U.S. Navy with this movie, but it's a two-year odyssey. And at one point, they're letting the director and the producers on the boat so they can learn from people.

They videotaped Lieutenant Commander who Denzel based his performance on. Got a lot of inside intel. And once the U.S. Navy found out that the script was actually going to be a mutiny on the boat, they were like, we're out. We're done.

We will have no involvement whatsoever with this. And there's a question of whether they knew the whole time there was going to be a mutiny and just withheld that or whether they came up with the idea later. So who knows? but the U.S. Navy is out on this movie. The little not, what was, who was in Top Gun? I'm blanking.

Was that Navy? That's the Navy, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they were in on Top Gun and so Simpson and Bruckheimer had the relationship and then. Tony Scott has a good response to that particular controversy. When he was interviewed about it, he said, if a mutiny is something that would never happen aboard a naval ship or a submarine, then why is there a training?

session for all for all naval officers in the event of a mutiny. Yeah, why, Chris. What's the fucking answer? You can never be too short. What's the answer? Apex Mountain. Tony Scott. Shit, Bill.

I'm asking. I'm not saying I'm asking. Well, there's a case to be made. It's definitely the career crossroads. it's a hit. It shows that he can work. He starts his relationship with Denzel with this movie. I don't think it's his best film. I don't know.

Do I think it's his best movie? God damn it. I think my three favorites, my three personal Tony's Got favorites, are Last Boy Scout, True Romance, and Crimson Tide, and they come along a row. I think True Romance is the apex, though.

So I would argue for Crimson Tide because it comes off True Romance. the next movie he makes is the fan, which is an apocalypse. It's such a bad idea, and it's ludicrous in every way, but it got made because he was Tony Scott, which makes me think that was his Apex Mountain.

Because in no world should any studio have greenlit that movie that's going to end with a pounding rainstorm and a fan impersonating an umpire and then them fighting at home plate. And the whole thing is just so over the top and so wrong and so bad. I'll never defend that movie. I love Tony Scott. So I would argue that for that.

Jack Russell Terriers. No. Season one of Frazier. Stay with me. Okay. Frazier is still on and kicking ass with a Jack Russell Terrier. And then Crimson Todd comes in. We've got double Jack Russell Terrier mega pop culture things in 1995.

It's a double whammy. Eddie versus Bear, who you take it? Chris, yes or no, Jack Russell Terriers. Yeah, I prefer this Jack Russell. Because this Jack Russell Terrier is in a much more, you know, consequential situation than Frasier. Other than that, I don't, unless mutinies on subs,

we could we could say this is Apex for that. Is this Apex Mountain? Is this the best submarine movie ever made? It's this or, I think it's this for Hunt. did it Das Boot like get nominated for an Oscar? Sure,

but like real heads know the deal. I mean, I think if we're talking about rewatchable movies if we're talking about entertainments,

if we're talking about movies that we go back to, I think it's, it's hunt for October or Crimson died. I think every generation gets their chance at this question.

You know, you get Fantastic Voyage is kind of a submarine movie. You get 20,000 leagues under the sea to run silent, run deep.

What's the, there's another one in the 50s that is, that is a really big film. Is Ice Station Zebra kind of? It has elements, but it's not the main focus. It's a Robert Mitcham movie.

Oh, Enemy Below. The Enemy Below is on the list. And then K-19, The Widow Maker, comes after this, the Catherine Bigelow movie, which is okay, but it has Harrison Ford doing a Russian accent. Not exactly what you want. That movie is bad. You think this is better than Hunt for Octoberville?

What year did that come out? 90. I think it performed better, and I think it has a better kind of tail. It just feels more modern to me than Hunt for Red October does. I mean, Huffer October definitely feels rooted in that Tom Clancy, like late Cold War stuff. This feels a little bit more almost closer to like a terrorist story. But I think that the story and plot outside of the submarine in Hunt for October is a little bit more compelling than the one in Crimson Tide.

Like Redchenko, you see for like five seconds on CNN in the beginning, and then the rest of it is just Matt Craven screaming about him for the rest of the movie. I think that the Rameas versus Jack Ryan stuff in Hunt for October is a little bit more rich. But it's pretty neck and neck. Jason Robards cameos. Apex Mountain. Enemy of the state. I like this one.

Yeah, the weird thing about this movie is it's really nobody's apex. It's just people passing through it who are really good, but they certainly aren't peeking. Picking the dog on the sub, like the whole strategy for the dog going to the bathroom, just bug me for some reason. You'd think there would be a real effort to keep a sub safe, no matter how crazy the lead captain is. You know, I've worked with some people who are pretty nuts with dogs who would bring the dog everywhere, but never to this level where it's just like, oh, there's, watch out for the piss and shit, the sub.

Just seemed kind of off to me. And couldn't they have like some low level person walk the dog or like create some little astro turf place to go to the bathroom? Yeah, can you imagine walking down that hallway and there's a Jack Russell Terrier taking a piss and then like four guys smoking Whirlboro Reds?

Yeah. Put me in a fucking torpedo bay and like shoot me out into the ocean. Rough enough being in a sub. Like we don't need to add urine and shit. So I don't know. And then Hackman going full racist. I never fully understood that. but we talked about that already. Any of their nitpicks?

I got a couple. Yeah. What's Steve Zahn's job in this movie? Because for most of it, he spends just like smoking and listening to the radio and then like can't close a hatch or can't screw that pipe shut. So I was just trying to try to figure that out. And the other one was, do these guys learn a little too much of their information from cable news, even for 1995? Like, they find out about it at the Hunter's daughter's birthday party that Redchenko is taking over. and then when Gene Hackman walks in to do his briefing,

they're all watching cable news and he's like, yeah, you guys are probably all up to speed, right? It's like they're watching Richard Valeriani or whatever. Right. They'd be watching MTV, like Beavis and Butthead or something.

Yeah, I just would love to see those guys get a couple of newsletters about this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to that point, why is the only cassette they're listening to Martha and the Vandella's nowhere to run

over and over again? That's pretty weird for a bunch of naval officers. on a submarine in 1995. Yeah, it's getting pretty, you know, Timmy, do you like Gladiator movies down there? With dog piss and shit. Best quote, I think we hit all of them unless you guys have any extras.

I wanted to cite Denzel's pronunciation of Holocaust. Nuclear holocaust. You guys pick up on that? Yeah. I feel like most people just say Holocaust, but he's very specific. He says nuclear holocaust.

HoloCost. I just thought that was weird. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? I think you would probably need to do it the way they did 24, where every episode is a set amount of time on that sub. And I think it would be effective. They may need to fill in a little bit on the Steve Zon character. You know?

But yeah, I would watch it. I vote no. I don't think it works. I think this is the perfect. two-hour movie. Probably in answerable questions. Lomachenko, what happened next for him? Vlad? What was his name? What was his name? Patapago? He probably buys a Premier League team. He buys a Premier League team, leads them to the Champions League. I think he buys West Ham. Doesn't he buy the New Jersey Nets? Isn't that his next move? Oh, my God. That's right. He makes the

Garnet trade. Any other unanswerables? Yeah. Are we sure, this is half nip-pack half-unanswerable? What do we feel like about the last scene where those guys are just like, hey, thanks for standing up for me in there. It's all water under the bridge with the whole nukes thing. I think I would be a little bit more of a grudge holder in that situation.

He also circles back pretty aggressively on his racist analogy. Yeah. He's like, that's a choice. I did a little more reading on that and watch some early YouTube videos. I'm glad you brought that up because I forgot to mention that and picking Nitz. He passes like an unforgivable point with Denzel

that last scene doesn't work for me because I don't think Denzel would be like, okay, cool, man, good luck. Good luck with everything. I'll see you. Thank you. And take care of that dog because he was great. Cool.

And yeah, no hard feelings about the whole racist horse thing that you said in front of 50 people. I'm just going to forget that happened. I don't know. I didn't like that part. I would have actually just gotten rid of it. Also, no hard feelings for nearly inciting the nuclear destruction of the entire world. A holocaust. It was almost a holocaust.

It was. I've noticed when they have movies like this, action movies with Washington as a setting in some way. they can't resist the outdoor shot near the end where the two characters meet again or run into each other again and you get to see Washington in some way. But that one is at Pearl Harbor. That's when they go to Naval Command at Pearl Harbor

as the final scene. Oh, that wasn't Washington? No. Oh, well, there goes that theory. Fortunately, it's the end of the podcast. Nobody's listening. Who won the movie? I'm going to go Washington.

I think he really establishes himself as something a movie star at another level in this one. And maybe one that we're going to be talking about for decades, which we are, because this is 25 years later. I'd like to make a case for Hackman or Scott, but I think Chris is right.

I think it kind of has to be Denzel supercharging into mainstream movie stardom. What about you, Bill, Don Simpson? Don Simpson and Denzel Thai. I had Denzel as well. I thought his part was a little bit harder. Here's the thing, though, and I was saving this for the end. I think without a few good men, I think you could really make a case for Hackman.

But this is two years after what was Nicholson's character and a few good men? Nathan Jessup. Yes, up. Colonel Jessup. There's still some Jessup fumes with the Hackman performance that never 100, that and I love Gene Hackman. It's not a criticism, but it just felt like it was in the Jessup phylum a little bit, that character. And I thought Nicholson did it better. And it did make me wonder if Colonel Jessup had just been the guy running the sub in this movie and that all played out

with Denzel, would that have been a better movie? And the answer is probably, yeah, because I think Jack Nicholson's ceiling was probably 5% higher than Hackman, just in general. But that's why I didn't might to give it to him on the jess of corner it's a very good call in the aftermath of good men there's a lot of similarities yeah i think you could argue who won the movie could have been out pachino that's who won this podcast for sure yeah had had he pulled it off i don't know chris was not even taking bets on that you how much more how much more captain ramsie Pacino as Captain Ramsey could you guys honestly do here?

Could you do like an hour? I think we could probably just do a dramatic reading of this movie's script as Al Pacino. I do think I'd probably blow out my podcast software. War is a continuation of politics by other means.

Von Klauschwitz! Oh, man. Vincent Hanna, the legend. That's it for the rewatchables. Chris, Sean. It was a pleasure as always. And we're dead. The next movie in case people want to watch it before we do this,

Nali Rubin and I are doing Draft Day. I want my picks back. It's long overdue. It's just going to be an entire podcast breaking down the first trade and how dumb it was. But stay tuned for that draft day. It's available on all the streaming services. That was the rewatch. Thanks for listening.