The Rewatchables - ‘Cruising’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: November 8, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan and the New York Times’ Wesley Morris put on their aviators and leather jackets to rewatch William Friedkin’s ‘Cruising,’ starring Al Pacino, Karen Allen, and Paul Sorvino. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Still making it? You're still making the watch, right? Mondays and Thursdays. Oh my God. You can't find still processing Wesley Morris. That's on another podcast network. Different. I mean, every podcast network,

because the New York Times doesn't have one yet. Yeah. Yet. But you're a ceremonial part of our whole world. Thank you. It is naughty November. We flew your ass out here to do three movies with us. And the first one is a little movie called Cruising.

Yeah. It's coming up next. A New York City detective in search of a killer is about to disappear into the night. What he sees. What he feels, what he discovers will change his life. Al Pacino, cruising, rated R. Starts this week at a theater near you.

All right, two controversial late 1970s movies. One was The Warriors, which we've already done on the rewatchables, about gang life in New York City. Fictional comic book, fable in a lot of ways, but it just caused complete chaos in the world. the city and there's all kinds of great articles that you can go read online about that. Then there's cruising

a William Freakin movie, which was about a bunch of murders in a gay underground area of New York City. The meat district? Meat packing. Meat packing. They weren't truth in advertising.

A writer got a copy of the script before they started making it, alerted everybody. They're protesting this movie the entire time it's being made and by the time it comes out. Everybody is convinced, oh my God. And yet here we are 42, 43 years later. This is a really good movie.

It really is. It's really good. It still holds up. I mean, holds up. It is withstood, predicted, transcended, descended, descended. I don't know. It's shockingly not, not only not terrible, but, like, right in some ways

and just endlessly fascinating. Yeah, I mean, it's so full of ambiguity and it's so full of style and it's so full of sexual anxiety. I feel like I'm losing my virginity again. Like, we've talked about this day a lot. We did. And now it's here, and I don't know

what to do with my hands. I feel like you got the handbrake on a little bit. A little bit. We were going to do it this summer for 250 and I started watching on an airplane and quickly realized, oh, I can't watch us on an airplane. Well, let me, so this is the first thing I was going to ask you guys.

Does this movie shock you? Yes. There are a few things in this movie that I cannot believe. Short of John Waters or Kenneth Enger. Like, I would not, I can't. The, the filleting, the nightstick. Yeah. There's a shot in this movie.

In the club scenes, I mean, I guess I should, I'll, I'll just say this now. there is a real care in being in these S&M clubs. It isn't like, I mean, who's the randomest person I could pick? It's not like Clint Eastwood made cruising and went into these clubs and was dismayed by what he was seeing. This is a movie that is not only curious. The cruising for anybody who doesn't understand what cruising is, it is basically the experience of looking at a man essentially. to tell him you want him

and hoping that the odds are in your favor that he will look at you the same way back. It's about eye contact. It's about looking at a stranger and just like telling him with your eyes that you want to fuck him. And he, if things go well, will do the same to you.

And there's a lot of cruising that just goes one way. But in this movie, every time the camera looks at one, one of these guys, the guys look back a lot of the time. It is, that's not dilatantism. Yeah. This isn't tourism. This is actual erotic engagement.

This is human beings sizing each other up. A hundred percent. For two hours, including Al Pacino playing Steve Burns, our lead character, who goes into this world and pretty quickly something starts to change. And I think that's why this has been such a fascinating rewatchable. There's so much ambiguity in this movie. And I kind of still don't know what happened. Well, it's intentional and some of it's like a product of like, I mean, honestly,

some of the protests that were happening around the movie wound up like ruining a lot of the sounds. So they're using different voices for the killer at different points in this movie. Freak it himself has been like, I don't really know who kills who in this movie. They made them edit some stuff too, right? There's probably like 35, 40 minutes missing. 40 whole minutes of missing underground sex footage. I mean, underground club sex. Freakin is described as pure pornography.

Yes. That's the 40 minutes that's missing. Yes. So you go this late 70s, New York, because this movie's filmed in 79. And we've talked about this a couple times on the pod, but just New York is kind of depraved from starting with Death Wish, which I think was 74, where it's like, what's going on in this city? We need a vigilante to help save us from everything that's going on. And then it just kind of goes through. And then you have like the...

When's taxi driver? 76. 76. Warriors is 79. Hardcore is 70. Hardcore is 79. 79. Yeah.

And then like Prince of the City and cruising are right around here too. Yeah. Cruising's February 80, but it's really filmed all through 79. So you have that version of New York and this Times Square and it ties into like what's going on

with the porn scene and just the punk scene is starting to take off and there's just all these layers that are happening in New York. And then you have like the Woody Allen version of New York. Yeah. Which is like this beautiful.

Here's a wide shot of the park. And it's just happy. And these two things are happening. People are film for them. Arguing online. That's it. Yeah. What's the Woody Allen 80?

What's 80s? Is that Stardust Memories? Is he? I don't remember. He does. Many of it's Annie Hall in Manhattan. That's late 70s. 77, 79.

Yeah. And then I think Star Duss Memories is Broadway. Danny Rose and Star Dess Memories. So like, while the culture is like in the present moving forward, Woody Allen, who was in the culture moving forward in some way, hits the 80s and is like, you know what, rewind. Right. I mean, for most of the first part of that decade, right?

Like, Stardust Memories, Zellig. Yeah. Radio days is 87. Yeah, he's going backwards. He's going backwards. Han and her sisters is in, you know, even something like, no, Hannah and her sisters, that's basically. 84, isn't it?

Yeah, that's 86. September is 80. When the late ADC starts getting dark. I mean, like, he spends the first, he spends most of that decade in nostalgia land with Ronald Reagan, honestly. Right. Right. This was one of the first major studio movies ever to present any form of gay sexuality on screen.

And actually, I researched this because I was like, I wonder what came before. You mean openly gay. Just people being. sexuality, yes. People being gay and being in the environments where you would go meet other gay people. And the identity is not in crisis either. No, it's not about...

It's established. Right. This is not about... This is not coming out stories. These are going inside stories. And I think that one of the... These are penetration stories. One of the criticisms of the movie,

especially at the time, was that it was a... It was looking through gay life through one lens and that it was just like all gay people love being in the mind shaft, basically. But I don't even think within the case

of this movie, that's the case. You know what I mean? You get characters like Ted. You get all this diversity of characters in it.

But even the cops know there's a line that Paul Sorvino has. I wrote it down because it really struck me as, you know, they're not in the mainstream of gay life.

They were in, they're into leather and S&M. Like, it's clearly drawing a line and saying that this is a, this is a subculture

within this, dominant gay culture. And at some point, when the killings continue, the mainstream gays are like, you got to solve these S&M murders because nobody is safe. And we, in the mainstream gay life,

we like to go. We go to the, well, we don't know that. I've got leather. I go to the eagle sometimes. Yeah. I want to get my eagle on. Well, it's a little like Dom or 10 years later, right, when there's all these murders and nobody really cares because he's murdering a bunch of people that aren't

Like if he was in sororities, killing sorority students. Sure. Treated a little bit differently. Right. We are in a weird, like, back to murdering gay people moment, though. Yeah. Like, I mean, not, I mean, in the culture, like, we're revisiting all of these dead gay people, courtesy of serial killers, which I find fascinating.

So, this was based on a 1970 novel by a New York Times reporter, Gerald Walker. Which freaking had a very antagonistic relationship with that book. I think he was basically, like. who gives you shit? Like this book is it's based on this book but I don't like the novel. And he didn't want any part

of the movie for a while. And then there was some unsolved killings in gay leather bars in the 70s and a couple of Village Voice articles written about them. He found out about this

police officer named Randy Jorgensen who had gone deep cover like Pacino's character does in this movie and the wheels started turning and he decides I'm going to do it.

Here's what he said. Now, Friekin, he's a little like our guy Schrader. Like, not shy about giving interviews. No, he's a good quote. He's been in. Like, he'll definitely, he'll go there.

But he said, cruising came out around the time that gay liberation had made enormous strides around the general, among the general public. It also came out around the same times that AIDS was given a name. I simply used the background of the S&M world to do a murder mystery. He was based on a real case. But the timing of it was difficult because of what had been happening to gay people. And then going forward, he says, now it's reevalued as a film. It could be found wanting as a film, but it no longer has to undergo the stigma of being an anti-gay screed, which it never was.

So that in some ways gave a little juice to the movie because it was so controversial. But I also think it's a better movie than the controversy. And I think the quality of the movie has now transcended the controversy, it feels like. 100%. Yes. I mean, for one thing, I think it's way more interested in. fair to humane toward and and invested in this particular aspect of gay culture.

Yeah, right? And it was also showing something that you had to go to a Kenneth Enger short avant-garde movie to basically experience. It was Jack Smith, Kenneth Enger, somebody doing something on the Lower East side, some Friday night, you know, I mean, there was an avant-garde. guard film scene that had some of this in it.

But the idea that you'd have a major director with a major star, major star, turning themselves over to it, right? And again, it's really important to say this. That camera is invested. Oh my God. Yeah.

In looking at all this shit. And not only that, I don't know if you guys have this experience, but like, and parenthetically, James Franco, apparently was also curious about this too because he did, you know, he took Interior movie, that missing 40 minutes,

he made a documentary with I think his name is, is it Travis Walker? Yeah, but it was like, it's like a kind of doc, it's like a faux documentary, but it's also like, yeah, neither here nor there, you learn too much about what James Franco

might be like as a filmmaker to like want to like stay with it. But I think the point is that this movie is really, invested in what that experience is like. And I was watching it thinking, what was it like to shoot that, right?

Oh, my God. Because while these protests... He really gave into it, right? He was just like, let's go in, I want this as authentic as we could possible. This is the thing that's the best about these naughty November movies, almost uniformly, is that they're not shot in a place,

they're shot of a place. The thing that jumps out at me about cruising, and it was the same as when I was living in New York, even though New York was a much different place, than it was in 1980. But the sensation in New York is, I can be in a diner on one block, and then three blocks over,

I can be in a basement getting high out of my mind and partying, and there's, like, these guys have been in here for two days. Like, the way that life lives on top of itself in New York City is unlike anywhere else, and he gets that. Even the opening scenes of the first scene of the killer walking across the street in the meatpacking district

and it's just descent, dissent, going down, going down into the darkness. That happens in the city. It doesn't have to happen in leather bars, but it happens in this feeling of like Chinese place, then gay bar, then dry cleaners, then like Whole Foods. It's like that still exists.

Subway. Yeah, there's a mystery of, what's that building? There's no sign of that one. Well, enclosures, right? Yeah. Like elevators, subway cars, basements. I mean, so much of nightlife used to just,

be going into hell-oriented circumstances, right? Where you just truly never knew what was going to happen at any moment, and it was thrilling. Yes. Whether you were going to watch a porno, see a stripper, it didn't matter. You were, you didn't know. I mean, getting on the subway, you didn't know. You didn't know anything. Your life could end at any moment.

It was kind of exciting. So many fucking hilarious nights in New York City before like Uber in Brooklyn where you would just be like, I don't know how I'm going to get home. Yep. Yeah. I may just walk across Brooklyn. No, anybody. It's one in the morning.

It's January. I'm freezing. I'm drunk, but let's just see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this movie has that energy. Before September 11th, I mean, you know,

I mean, this is still not, this is still the case. They're just alternatives for me. But like not being able to get a cap as like a 22-year-old, you know, because they would not stop. They still won't stop. To this day, I mean, it is still a thing that happens. But like it was a, it was you don't even have to like have this conversation.

Right. I'm going to have to get a white person to hail the cab and then jump in it. There's a seediness to that late 70s, New York that you can really feel. And there's a whole bunch of shit going on, right? Like there, you go back to what was when they had the cop strike in 1976 during the, what was the Ali fight in Yankee Stadium? There's no policeman at the thing. The blackout in 77.

Times Square is just this. lurid red light discreet all time off the rails on and on and on and there are these different pockets and then by the 80s it starts to shift a little bit the this guy Nathan Lee for the voice oh Nathan one of our great critics so he he started riding for this movie in the 2010s of course Nathan Nathan Nathan Nathan Lee is I mean Nathan is teaching now I believe yeah but I mean he was the most dangerous critic of anything in the United States for about five years. And just to go back and read what he was, like, what he was advocating for. Yeah, he gets on the, and arguing against. He gets on the train with this movie in like 0708, right? Nathan. Yeah. Yeah. So he, maybe that's one it was. He said,

cruising is a lurid fever dream of pop perfumes, color-coded pocket hankies, hardcore disco fraudage, and crisco-co-coated forearms. Nowadays, when the naughtiest thing you can do in a New York gay club is light a cigarette, it's brain. And let's admit, pretty fucking hot to travel back to a moment and getting your ass pot in public was as blasé as ordering a Red Bull. He's true. The Red Bull goes up your butt. So anyway, things start to shift with this movie, I would say, maybe 12, 15 years ago.

It also was on a lot, which I think is interesting. Isn't the kind of movie you'd be like, oh, this is, it's 9 o'clock on cinemax today, and cruising is on. But I think, you know, there's a whole bunch of reasons we can. decode for that. But I think one of the main reasons is you can jump into this movie and still not be totally sure of what happened. Like, did Pacino kill Ted?

Right. Was Pacino gay? Did he realize he was gay early? Was he bisexual even before he took the cop roll? Are there multiple killers on the loose? How many killers do we have? What's the future of him and Karen Allen? When he looks in the mayor at the end, is he excited that she's wearing the killer's clothing,

basically? And I think Freed can have- Great ending. Such a good ending. Great ending. I think Friedkin just stumbles into some of this just because of the editing was such a disaster for this movie. But then it belatedly leads to all these great things.

Yeah. I love the ending. I love that. I don't know what it means. I think the music. And then the fact that it doesn't just end with his face, we go back to the harbor. Yeah. The harbor again.

So it's like, does that mean there's going to be more murderers? Are we getting on cruising two? Let's talk about Pacino. Yep. Pre-wilderness. About to go into the wilderness. 72 to 78. Serpico, Godfather, Godfather,

2, Dog Day afternoon, Bobby Deerfield, and Justice for All. He's one of the biggest dramatic actors in the world he could get any part he wants. From 1977 to 79, he turned down Han Solo and Star Wars. He turned down the lead part

in close encounters. What? He turned down the lead part in Apocalypse now. What? And he turned down the dad in Kramer v. Kramer. Oh my God. God! And the movie he really wanted to do was Slapshot.

But George Roy Hill said, you can't ice skate, I can't have you in Slapshot and did Paul Newman instead. So he's just... Wow. He's zagging. Solo. Yeah, he's hard zagging from 77 on. Crair versus Kramer.

Yeah, Kramer versus Kramer. Wow. So somehow he sees cruising. Do we know? Why did he turn down some of these parts? Do we know? Pacino is fucking weird. idea. I mean, there's also, like, to some extent, there's the William Goldman, like, all parts get

offered to Robert Redford and Al Pacino first. So maybe it's a little bit, like, I can't do all these. Even start the process, you have to send it to Tom Cruise kind of thing. But, like, you know, I could see him. He was probably above the Dustin Hoffman on the ladder. He's getting offers probably before Dustin Hoffman. He's going, they're going even with De Niro. Yeah. Yes. And then nobody else dramatically. And then Newman and Redford are kind of over here, and Eastwood's here. Slice Stallone's like, I guess, here. But he's coming, he's coming closer to Sly, right? Because all these things are going to converge in the 80s, right?

In Nottie November. If you're... If you're making a movie, if it's an awesome director, or if it's a movie that has a chance to maybe get an Oscar, whatever, Pacino's going to be one of your first cause. He chooses this movie. It's weird. I love Pacino in this movie, but I'm also don't think this. is one of the best Pacino performances. So you know what I think the trick of this is,

is that most people, or at least most of the movies that we've done, the rewatchables without Pacino, the director clearly is insorseled with, like, they're enamored with Pacino. Yeah. Freakin is not.

Yeah. And so Pacino is kind of part of the furniture in this movie in a lot of ways. And there are much, I mean, when Stewart shows up about in the beginning of the third act of this movie, yeah.

Freakin seems way more interested in Stewart than he ever has been in Steve, right? And so I think that there's like a element of which part of it was I think Pacino showed a lot of trepidation throughout the production and was like a little bit like what the fuck is going on. Especially they're protesting. They're protesting. They're protesting. He's probably like, what did I do? Why did I decide to do this? Right.

But then I think also like Freakim has been very candid about like he's just like they're like, oh Al Pacino doesn't talk about this movie. And he's like, well, that's good because he's not very eloquent. Like, they have a pretty hostile relationship going forward. And you can kind of see that on screen. He's not treated like a movie star in this movie, really. It takes him... He doesn't show up until the first 20 minutes, I think. I think 20 minutes have passed.

I think I wrote it down. A lot of times past before Petino shows... The Harbour, the killing, and Paul Sorvino. Yeah, Sorvino. And then finally, he calls Pacino in, and it's not even... It's mostly a Paul Sorvino scene when he calls Pacino in. Freikin said he was disappointed with Pacino's lack of professional.

during the shoot said he was often late and that he didn't add any ideas to the character of the film. I would, I mean, I did not direct this movie. I don't know if you guys know that. I did not direct cruising. But I would disagree with what we get anyway. There's a great moment where Sirvino, Paul Servino, who's the police captain, lays out what the situation is. And he's like, you know, why did, this movie is fascinating for two reasons. One is very, very, very, very deep, and the other is just like plot orientating, like an actor figuring out how to play this part. Yeah. Servino lays out the situation. Men are being killed in these S&M clubs.

This is not mainstream gay society. This is a fetish situation. And this killer's fetish seems to be guys who look like you. Yeah. And I'll get to that in a second. But the other thing is that when Servino lays this out to him, he's not like, fucking. you, man, what do I have to do it? Why does it got to be me?

He says, yeah. He's like, I'm your man. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. And the reward of getting his shield or whatever the promotion is that he wants to get is kind of like... He didn't even care. Yeah. And think about how he I mean, we can save some of this stuff

because I don't want to jump all over, like, rewatchable scenes and stuff like that, but how does Paul Sorvino introduced this job to him? Remember? What's he said? He says, do you ever give it your cock suck by man? Oh, yes. That's the opening line.

He says, you're joking, right? You're joking, right? Yeah. I mean, there's, but we already know. I mean, I'm sorry, I can't believe we've been talking about this for 15 minutes. And I have not said, what the fuck is going on with the NYPD? What?

Like, this is, I have had my share of police. officer-oriented sexual encounters. I'm just going to put that out there. I have some very complicated feelings about those people. Yeah. But this movie also shares my feelings. Yeah. It's fucked up.

I mean, it was, to think about what they're going to do seven years from now in the Central Park Jocker case, I mean, what they've been doing throughout the entire... Watch persons of the city! The Forests of the city is just we own the city. Yeah. Fucker Stonewall. Yeah.

Anyway, the idea that that energy is being captured in this movie that is also about that world where the corruption here is sexual among the police officers, right? It isn't about burying cases or... Unbelievable. Right. They're like, hey, what they would then call transvestite person, get up here in the front seat. You know what you got to do. And these guys are like, give me a break, man.

Like, really? And they're trying to get Paul Sorvino to do something about the harassment, sexual assault that's happening. And this subset of this subset of the gay community. Right, right? These sex workers who are essentially being assaulted by police officers who want to get off on that sex. The Pacino piece. So he plays the first, like, what, third of the movie,

a little like Michael Corleone in the first hour, Godfather's Three. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he's just kind of like a little mealy. And then he starts kind of finding some sort of confidence. The line between professional achievement and sexual curiosity, it gets completely blurred when he starts lifting weights. Yes, that scene. Yeah.

That's when you're like, are you building your body up because you think this is what you're supposed to look like as an undercover detective in this world? Are you building your body up because you were in this place and you notice all these guys are quite in the morning? Well, it all culminates with the dancing scene, which is the greatest minute of the, movie and maybe the early 80s.

It's so fucking funny. He goes for it in a way. How many times did Pacino go for it like that? It feels like it's happening in real life. It's the thing you have to say about it's like that whole scene, those bar scenes, feel like they are alive. And he feels like, I mean, for whatever freaking was feel, you know what I think. Here's my, here's my Freakin versus Pacino theory.

Okay. I think that Friedkin got there. I think Freedkin knew he was interested in a world and in an atmosphere. And he happened to have this great actor. And I don't know what he thought Pacino was going to bring to this part, but Pacino brought something else.

And whatever it was Al Pacino was bringing, he was private about, maybe he was confused about what this part was. But I also think he had an understanding that this guy was going to go on some kind of journey. and I'm probably closer in my orientation to this guy if I'm making him straight. But I'm obviously muddying that water

the minute he says, I love it. And so what he's acting here is like a release, right? So by the time you get, it's not a, it's the metaphor, the dancing is both the metaphor for sex. And for this guy, it is the sex, right? it is it's not going home and getting tied up because I think that well we can talk about that yeah but I think I would come up later the way the way the way the dancing works in this movie and his his letting go because you see in the opening shot in the club there's that great tracking

shot across the room and these guys are having a great time right it's not like seedy dirty you know Crisco covered arms that are like you actually do see in this movie And you see what happens. There's a shot of a Crisco arm, and there's a shot of a guy on a, like, slinged up, laid out. A guy, it's Bruno Kirby. Is it literally Bruno Kirby? It's literally Bruno Kirby. No way!

What? Yeah. That's Bruno Kirby. Oh, my God. Do we ever see his face? Yeah, we see him kind of react to the Crisco arm. My God. Yeah.

You guys didn't know that? I did not come across any of my research. I've read a lot of freaking stuff. this week. Bruno Kirby. I sat with the credits. I'm like, oh,

there's, Mike Starr. There's, yeah, William Russ. Like, no, no, some other power, powers boo,

Powers booth. Powers Booth. Ed O'Neill. Yeah. Like, tiny shot. It's Brno Kirby. That was Ed O'Neill. Yeah,

first movie. It was Ed O'Neill. Oh, Bruno Kirby radar. Holy, holy, he is ever. I think he was, thinking got him on the

IMDB map. Anyway, the dancing sequence, I feel like that's the moment where both the actor and the character are like, I don't know when they shot this, what in what sequence they shot it.

But you can see in real time, because this is also the kind of actor Pacino is, right? Like, he's an in-the-moment kind of actor. And this was the moment where he's like, I know these people are protesting, but I've been with these guys, this whole shoot. And these guys, these gay guys that I'm with are totally down to do this movie.

I got to remember that. There were way more of those people that were in the movie than probably protesting. And I'm going to let go. Yeah, so he. Then he kind of flips the switch and moves into the stalker part of the movie with the killer. Yeah. And his energy totally changes.

So it's a good Pacino performance. It's just a little weird because I think in the first half of the movie, I think he, as you just laid out, was really trying to figure out. I don't really know what this character is and then belatedly got it. Lots more Pacino coming up. $11 million budget for this movie made 19.8. It was a hit. Our guy Roger Ebert, two and a half stars. said it's well-visualized,

said it did a riveting job of exploring an authentic subculture that has a fairly high level of genuine suspense from beginning end and then seems to make a conscious decision not to declare itself on its central subject. What does Fried can finally think his movie is about? Let's tackle that after the break. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help.

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Is it just a murder mystery to him and he got to, because I think he looks at it as like, this world's fascinating to me. I'm going to make a movie. I'm going to dive into this world, but it's really a murder mystery. But I think it's the world that he likes. I think he really liked doing a crime film set in this world.

I think he found it visually compelling. I think this is a guy. who likes to roll up his sleeves and be in the world that he's making his movies in, and I think he thought it made it a really interesting backdrop for this mystery. Yep. That's, I think, a safe assumption. What I think this movie is about, and what I think is going on here is that when you're exposed to certain stimuli,

ideas about what side of a professional thin blue line you're on or what your sexual orientation is, get a little distorted, you know? Because, like, you're almost so stimulated by what you're a part of that it changes you a little bit or that you realize that you have a capacity for experience that you didn't know

that you had in the beginning. Now, I don't know if freaking saying that, but Pacino's performance is really saying that, and I feel like that's, he chose ultimately what to show Pacino going through, and it's such a quiet performance and it's such like a introverted performance. We don't get a lot of speeches about,

other than the scene at the subway platform where he's like, basically, I'm burning out. But this doesn't seem like there's a lot of internal resistance from Pacino's character as he starts this slide. And then when he essentially becomes what he's hunting, where he's basically stalking Stewart, he's basically gone all the way over onto the other side in a variety of different ways.

But not necessarily sexually, right? Not necessarily. This is the corrupt. And I think that's Freakin's interest. If you think about the way the French connection works, the way the Exorcist works, To live and die in L.A. He is really interested, the Guardian. Sorry.

We won't bring up the Guardian. But to think about what his interests are as a filmmaker, there really is, I mean, you know, and we're thinking about things like law enforcement and the clergy, right? These sort of highly regulated sort of role-backed. process oriented. Yes, where, like, there's a culture of behavior, and then there are people within this culture that are transgressing it, right?

You know, French connections about this racist cop who is trying to, like, solve a murder, but, you know, will basically harass, humiliate, embarrass any black person, I mean, because that's what we're dealing with in that movie, who gets in his way. The Exorcist is really, I mean, you know, there's a thing that subtext,

text is about, which is about like, it's a movie about divorce. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a movie about what happens when two married people get a divorce. What happens to the kids? Well, Satan is what happens to the kids. Yeah, my mother's scox and hell.

But this movie is, I kind of love this because it's only got one idea. And it's law enforcement. It's the police, right? This movie is about the police. There is a night called precinct night at the club, at one of the clubs, precinct night. Pacino is not welcome on precinct night. He gets there and they assume, like, well, let me get the exact irony right here. He is an undercover cop going into the world of S&M on this one night he gets there and everybody in the club is dressed like a cop.

He encounters the bouncer who was like, yo, what's going on? What? Are you a cop? I had this for best quote, this is policeman night. You have the wrong attitude. I'm going to have to ask you to leave. He's not cop enough to be a fake cop. Yeah.

Right? And so there is this way in which he's not adequate enough to be doing anything. Like what kind of cop was he before he went on? ground. And what kind of like doing parking tickets? What kind of sexual partner was he before he went on the ground? Right. Like there are all of these things that Freakin is playing with

and he's dressed. His idea of an S&M get up is black and blue. It's a black, it's a blue dress shirt with a black t-shirt and I think black jeans. Or a black leather. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Like, and the cops in these

days are wearing leather. That was the uniform. They were dressed for S&M. Freed Cane French Connection 71, Exorcist is 73, and at that point, it's the biggest filmmaker alive, pretty much. Yes. Exorcist made a kajillion dollars. And these are two massive best picture winning, best picture nominated movies,

great performances. The made a shitload of money. Hugely lucrative. It doesn't do French Connection too. As disturbing now. Yes. As they were when they were released. This is, can we talk about that? Yeah.

How is that achieved? Like, what is that? I don't know. Your French connection is 51 years old, though. Is it having your movie look like it was cut with a butter knife? Yeah. Like, that's what they used to splice all these shots together? I don't know, but every time I watched the French connection two years ago.

Yeah. And I could not believe the immediacy. That car chase is no joke. Oh, my God. But neither are the arrest scenes. They're infuriating for how heartless Popeye Doyle is to the people in those clubs. De Palma, I watched the... a documentary about him for six years ago to prepare for another one of the

movies we're doing. And he's talking about how he hates car chases because he's like, Friedkin, I mean, after French convention. Why would you even have a car chase? And he has one in blowout, right? But it's not like, it's not that long. Yeah. But he was just like, Frid can ruin car chases for the rest of mankind for movies.

We could ever have another one. I think he ruined car chases in possession. He gets two. Yep. Yep. Well, so then he does Chris's favorite sorcerer in 77. Sorser. Dude.

The Brink's job in 78 and then cruising in 80. And then does... You know what his next movie was? It was three years later. I'm not going to remember. It starred Chevy Chase. Oh, yeah. Deal of the century.

Oh, okay. That's not what I thought you were in. You were going to say flesh or something? As you know, whenever I see anyone from this era, when I see an actor, director, or whatever, and the wheels just come off for them. I'm always assuming

cocaine is probably involved. There's a decent bet. This is like the height of the cocaine era when decisions and things just start good way. But this isn't also, this is when New Hollywood ends. Like, these are a lot of... The number movies,

it's the end of new... The support structure for the kind of movie that he wants to make is over. He can't get them fun anymore. But, you know, disappears shortly after cruising anyway. 8-48-89.

Is he pretty much just goes and does theater? There's a little Tony Montana, when he gets out of Dutch. But, well, I mean, we'll keep going on freaking because I have a theory about, like, what happens to everybody from the 70s by the time you get to 83. But go on. Well, who is contemporaries at the time? Scorsese.

Scorsetor, yeah, but Spiebler? Yeah, but Spilberg. Coppola. Blows it out of the water. Right. Spielberg. Well, Spielberg's, yeah, kind of even, I guess, like, he's over there. They're in two separate leagues in some ways.

But I think one of the things that happens is all of the sort of excesses of that like the excesses of the 70s were all about like they were in the world of the movie somehow. Do you know what I mean? Like it wasn't about spending on the movie. It was about the limits these characters are being pushed to by a piece of screenwriting, right? It was about what are these characters that are going to have to be acted

by these great actors that we have? What are the limits of these people going to be? Whereas by the 80s, the limits were really about budgets. They were about rosters. They were about what stars could be paid to do X, Y, Z, F, what stars were willing to do. Yeah, right. Could guarantee a commercial response.

Yeah, like Michael Douglas probably isn't making cruising in 1989. Well, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, isn't basic instinct as close as we're going to get? Right. Well, fatal attraction. I mean, we're, I mean, we're...

But he gets to be a heterosexual. man in those movies. That's true, but I think I don't think anybody was offering him the opportunity. This is the thing. I think all of that perversion gets made metaphor in the erotic thriller. Yeah, it's like how can we

take everything that's happening in these movies and distill it down to do like a hot blonde and a cop who's like on the edge. I mean, yeah, Karina Longworth's you must remember this podcast, spent an entire you know, 12 episodes, 11 episodes, 11

episodes dealing with what was happening in the 80s and with sex. And one of her conclusions was that a lot of what the erotic thriller was was an AIDS allegory. And I'm interested in that. I think that

and I'm not saying she's not reducing it to only that, but that's one of the things that she surmises this happening. I think what's interesting to me with the 80s is that all those great actors, like I mean, I think that each great actor from that decade

from the 70s has they peak and explode. Dunaway does Mommy Dearest. De Niro does Raging Bull. This is 80. These are both 81, I believe. Pachino does Scarface. That's 83.

Nicholson does The Shining. That's 80. These people get these parts and they lose their minds. I don't know what it cost them, but they are not the same for a significant period of time. Right. I mean, maybe, maybe. But, but, but, but it's different for him though, right?

Because he, he's not giving himself over to these parts, right? He had a production. I don't know. I just watched eyes wide shut. I don't know. It's not the same thing. If you guys watched that movie lately. There's, it's not the same. Look at where Fade Dunaway is performance wise at the end of Mommy Dearest. Oh my God. Or Nicholson is at the end of the shooting. You're right. These are people who, who have given themselves over so deeply that only choice they have by the end of the movie is to die.

Right. The performance can only culminate. And Nicholson almost goes to start doing supporting actor roles. Right. He's got the terms of Endearment now. You know, like I'll do... Reds. Yeah.

I'll show up in Pritzie's honor, but I'm really making it because I want Angelica. He's didn't make a movie. You know what I mean? Right. I mean, these people are spent doing these parts. And I think Spicino, in a weird way, was kind of saving himself for what a diploma would ask him to do in Scarface. And I don't think

Freakin Freakin really was interested in this role And it wasn't really trying to get Pacino To be pushed to do anything So Pacino was kind of Probably left to his own devices in cruising In a way that I don't I don't think that I think he likes to be directed

Right he wasn't ever really working with like He didn't do a lot of movies with so-so directors He worked with a lot of his parts Were some of the best Let's do the categories I don't know if this is most rewatchable scene or memorable scene, whatever we want to call it. The first time, well, the Servino laying out for Pacino is good.

Just like the... Yes. Yeah. So why me? Well, frankly, all of the victims appear to be the same physical type, which is to say they all look like you. Late 20s, 140, 150 pounds, dark hair, dark eyes. I see.

I want to send you out there to see if you can attract this guy. How well? Lucas and Vincent were not in the mainstream of gay life. They were into heavy leather. S&M. It's a world unto itself. I don't know how much you know about that sort of thing. It's an important instance.

He pulls up the crew, and there's like all the pictures of the guys. They all look like him. It's very well done. Nice to have serving, you know? Yes. A staple. Does he always had a limp? No, I think he limps for this movie.

Oh, he gave it to himself. There's an interesting theory. Like, one of the things I read was about, he has a limp because it's a limp is a sign of like compromised masculinity compromised masculinity? Compromise masculinity Right yeah yeah yeah so that's why

he had the limp because this movie's all about masculinity Yeah yeah somebody there's I forget who wrote it But somebody goes deep on like this this is a movie about masculinity Oh 100% And Schrader has all these deep deep deep deep things he's trying to do in there that everybody Oh Freakin? I'm freaking yeah yeah I mean I believe that that's 100% true And I think that just thinking about like the gay men you aren't seeing in this movie, right? All these guys, I mean, to quote a gay liberation anthem, these are macho men, right?

These are men who were the fetish, it's deeper than the masculinity being a fetish because the way that the power is working, it's about dominance. And, you know, the people who were upset and offended by the idea of a movie depicting gay life or having a movie to, like, conflate violence in gay life was kind of missing a huge aspect of what the S&M scene was, right? I can see it, though, from their vantage point because... Oh, of course. Like, there's one movie. There's one movie. Really?

This is the one movie with gay people. It's going to be this. I get it. Of course, of course. But it's still an awesome movie. And yet, like, you're talking, you're showing, I mean, this is, I was making this point, I was talking about a little bit, Bill earlier about this a little bit. It would be like having the first explosion of black life in film be the South Central movies, right?

Where like nobody's denying that this is not part of what we call the black experience. I mean, black exploitation in some ways was about that, but in a different way because that wasn't a genre and it was about, a lot of different things and a lot of things sort of got, can be put in that bucket and classified as black exploitation. So it's, I mean, I totally understand, you know, this is why movie like Boomerang was such a big deal because like,

finally we're seeing middle class black people. Right. Be rich and glamorous. They're playing billiards. And work for corporations. I think that there is an understandable, there was an understandable frustration that what you were seeing was not

representative of the whole. and the whole should be seen before the part to get seen and I morally get that and yet so rewatchable scenes okay we have that one

that's when he goes the first gay bar scene where we just go in there and it's like oh so we're really doing this we're getting it in there I suggest you try an ostrich feather of the small of your back I have this next sequence

called Pacino hits the scene Flape lewd, as the French say Which includes him making stopbys at the ramrod and wolf's den We have the Powers booth scene which is incredible The Hanky code Where Powers Booth Power's ass booth is laying out the Hanky code

Blue Hanky means blowjob Right Left or right What are they for I like blue hank in your left back pocket means you want a blowjob. Right pocket means you give one. The green one left side says you're a hustler.

Right side you're a buyer. The yellow one left side means you give golden shower. Right side you receive. Red one, please. You see anything you want? I'm going to go home and think about it. I'm sure you'll make the right choice. And then it ends with he lays it on it.

Sheena goes, I'm going to go home and think about it. But not. But he leaves. And guess what? He does think about it. Yeah, and he comes back with a hankie. He's got a yellow hanky and he's told off when he's like, I just like to watch.

And the guy's like, are you fucking kidding me? Take the hanky out of your pocket, MF. As a hanky wearer myself, not for sex, but for sweat. I have been approached over the years like I don't have it today because I can't believe I left at home, but I'm a chronic handkerchief in my back pocket.

Now that, so ever since I rewatch cruise, I mean, I rewatch cruising a lot, but ever since I rewatched this time, I feel like I've noticed a lot more casual hankies in the world. It's like when you have a dog, you all of a sudden notice all the food that's on the sidewalk. Like, I was, I've like,

now, like, every time in a coffee shop, I'm like, yeah, blue hanky. Yeah. Like, maybe it's just like a fashion statement. Yeah. You don't know. Yeah? You don't know. I mean, I will. Well, Zay, as anyone said, gentlemen, it's just for sweat.

Just one child. Nobody said to, if you'd like to watch, take that hanky out of your pocket, asshole. And that goes right to Pacino lifting weights. And we're like, oh, we're doing this. We're on. Here we go. Oh, my God, Bill.

Yeah. Hiding in plain sight. Yes? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The more you watch this movie, you're like, oh, he's definitely, he's decided. He's going in.

He's going a little more than undercover here. Is there a way? He's diving in. Maybe I should save this. If we're going to come back to Pacino's performance. Yeah, we'll come back. Okay. All right.

Because, like, just don't let me forget to ask you guys a question about that very transition. and what else it means given the other thing I said about what the case is actually about. Go on. I have Pacino Dancing. Which also wins the Pursuit of Happiness Award

for Best Needle Drop. And we're going to talk about the music in a second. Oh, so that's your next rewatchable scene is the Pacino dancing scene. Why do you have another one? I like the entire dressmaker kill sequence. The guy who's like, okay.

And then he goes out and goes to the movie theater. Oh, yeah. And it's basically like a little Hitchcock movie. in the middle of the... Yeah, that's good. Pacino telling Sorvino he's in trouble is awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't think I can handle it. That's all. I don't know. It's just things happen into me, you know? I don't know that I can handle it. I want you to know that it's not because I'm afraid or anything.

It's just stuff going down. I don't think I can... I can deal with it. I need you. partner and you can't let me down. We're up to our ass in this. And I'm counting on you. Things that happen to me, you know?

I don't know if I can handle it. And Servino's like, cool. Can you tell me, can you give me the updated? Like, he just doesn't care. He doesn't care about him as a human being. But you can see this guy's like, he's going through something. Yes.

I like when he gets the yearbook. I like mystery stuff where we have to solve stuff. So he's like he gets this yearbook and he's going through and all of a sudden he sees Stewie. Yeah. And then he gets the flashback. Don't call him Stewie. Doesn't like that.

He doesn't like it. Then he starts tailing him. The final showdown. How big are you? Party size. What are you into? I go anywhere. I don't do anything.

That's cool. Hips or lips. When he tails him to the park, the benches, the way Pacino is carrying himself, way he steps on the thing, all of it is just, um, it's just a great showdown. It's like an old school fucking showdown between the killer and the cop. And I don't know he followed the rules.

He did not. He might have committed a crime, but you know. Yeah. But don't worry, it's the NYPD. He'll be fine. And then the ending. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, just having Karen Aller, of all people you know who at this point is like innocent you know Marion

yeah put on because is a Raiders 79 or 80 Raiders is 81 81 she hasn't done Marion yeah

um no we have her she's the animal house at this point okay yeah yeah and there's just

something so extraordinary about the movies like we don't know what happens when he goes back out into the room like when they're

having sex he's something somewhere else like well what about that one when they're having sex and he's like hearing the music from yeah yeah yeah yeah oh this guy's gone yeah yeah and i think you know i can imagine a world in i mean i totally get the protests right like this is a movie about like about a straight guy going into our world and what his experience is like but i actually think that there is real value in the journey this guy goes on he couldn't have been what the character is in the book also to racist cop.

Right. The most disturbing thing in the movie, which you didn't say from the most rewatchable scene, possibly because I wouldn't call it rewatchable, but I think it's definitely the moment for the movie where I'm like, wow, well, this fucking movie is so

bracing. Is the interrogation scene. Oh, yeah. Ever see a knife like this, Skip? I see him every day and I give them out where I work. Do you have one like it? What do you want from me, huh?

You're a lion son of a bitch. Where is that, Bill? I had it coming up later in a couple spots. Because, I mean, I don't know how rewatchable it is either. It's not rewatchable. What do we do with that? Yeah. Because it's not camp, right?

It's not camp. It's fucking terrified. It's scary. Yeah. It's not sexual. And yet again, what the fuck is going on with the NYPD? Because they had to have a conversation. Right?

Yeah. Because you don't know what you don't. Bring in the shirtless cowboy guy. Yeah. Right. Shirless, he's wearing a chalk strap and a cowboy hat. He's standing behind a door the whole time, waiting for his moments. And that's my favorite Pacino moment in the movie, non-dancing version.

Is him being like, what did you do that for? Right. Because he's basically like, I'm a cop and they're making it real, but what's real? You know, we don't know. Is he actually? And why are they invoking all this, like, you know, like the sort of sexual power in this? It's such a 1950s way of. trying to get it the truth too, which is like we are going to subject you to the thing that

you seem to be most in denial of. What'll make you tell the truth? A six foot three black man in tight ass underwear. And is he wearing a cap? Cowboy hat, right? Yeah, cowboy hat. And that's it, right? And sunglasses. So is the insinuation going to be this guy's waiting for you in your cell if you don't play ball with us now? I think it's supposed to just be like you have left. You have left. You've left. Yeah. Like what's happening

in this room and then they're essentially talking about advanced torture. You know, they're like, but Chris, let's just see what this for a second.

What's the ball thing? It's not, they could have just like straight up water border this guy if that's their MO. Yeah. It is an S&M get up.

Like, it is, it is an, it is an embodiment of that culture coming to abuse these people. Like, they think,

this is what you like, right? Don't you like it when a guy with no clothes on and a cowboy hat comes out and beats you up? Is this what you need to tell the truth? We can do it again. Like, it's such a, like, they, how do they know to do this? How do they know to do this?

I have the dancing scene. I have the dancing. The dancing scene. Most rewatchable scene of the 80s. I love the showdown right into the hospital, right into the ending, but I really love the ending. I think the ending's fucking great.

The ending is really good. It's so cool. I love how he shot it. I love the shaving. Her standing with all the costume. Shaving scenes are always great. There's always like, there's a lack of,

the husband, there's always hiding something with the shaving. There's always like some sort of symbolism. But he doesn't get all of it off. Doesn't get all of it off. He doesn't get all of it off. And I hate to be this person.

I hate to do it. But it's shaving cream. It's the closest we get in this movie to come. Oh my God. Do you what I mean? I'm serious. I thought that too. I mean,

I just feel like there's no way. I thought he was going to be discreet. It's like, it's the closest thing we got to come. But he doesn't, he doesn't remove it all. There's a version of this where he,

like, they just freaking, like, wants him to shave all of the shaving cream off, but he doesn't. It's such, it's mostly still there. And he likes it.

Wood Sage the best. The killer is just really creepy. Or killer. Nice job. 70s killers, man. Stu is just springing it. He's got a creepy face. He's got different voices going on.

Well, they are literally different voices. Like, one of the guys who gets killed is eventually the voice for the killer. A lot of it seems very purposely dubbed. Yeah. It's bad. It actually is bad in a way that makes it scarier in some way. Yeah, I don't. I just.

And it feels when you watch it, that part is the most like 70s B-movie. Because in the hind-house shit. Yeah. When Pacino does the who, here, I'm here, and the guy's just like very funny. And it's like, holy shit, one of these guys is about to die. The music

is unbelievable in this movie. I kept track. So, we got Willie DeVille. He's got two songs. He did the moment and pulling my string. The cripples. There's a John Hyatt, Spy boy. Spy boy! There's supposed to be a bunch of germs, but he only used

one. Madeline von Ritz, germs, but he picked a good one. Rough trade. Lion's share? Yeah. the vibe of these songs and it really catches this kind of punk era from 79 to 81, right? It's really interesting that this is not a disco movie.

Right? Because... No, it's like, got some funk, but it's not. The first song, the first song we hear is a song called Lump by... Oh, shit. Mutiny.

Mutiny, yes. And that is the only funk song we hear. There's one kind of disco laden song that's really like a rock song. That a woman sings. We only hear mostly men sing this music and it's

mostly punk. I think the music really helps this movie. Like I actually it's one of those things you don't notice because they're all songs you don't, they're not famous songs. No. But the totality of them. It just gives the film of an air of legitimacy. It's a gritty

kind of punk disco. I don't even know how to describe the genre. Post-punk, no wave starting in 80, in 81, 80. Like that's like right as that scene is emergent. You could feel like the strokes were influenced by, certainly the, like this exact kind of music.

Yeah, I also think that, you know, it's meaningful that this is, this movie was being shot at the same time that the disco sucks, Inferno happens.

You know, like that happens during the filming of this movie. So like, the stakes were high for people, for gay people, um, and black gay people, especially of whom there are,

virtually none in this movie. But that's not the movie's fault because they... I wasn't there in the S&M leather scene in 1979, 1980, but like knowing how gay clubs work in general, I'm not surprised that there wouldn't have been. There's one gay guy at one of the bars against a wall at some point. But the only real black male sexuality we see

or the only like implication of it is in the torture... In torture man. Yes. I like having Karen Allen and movies in this era. I don't think she's got a lot to do here. Apparently a lot in the cutting room, cutting room floor.

Yeah. But I really liked her apartment. I had that in what makes it best. I have New York City apartments. And the fact that this is back in an era where, for whatever reason, so now when you watch a movie or you, especially when you watch TV,

those just reuse these sets. And a lot of scenes get written to happen in the same indoor spaces so that they can reuse these sets. he shot in real apartment buildings and real people's apartments and it's like, you know, Al Pacino's going one direction. So he's not going back to the same places over and over again. So it's like Stewart's building feels like a New York City apartment building. Yeah.

You know, like him being on the sort of balcony outside Stewart's apartment and kicking in or removing the sort of side slats of the window fan, I was just like, this is fucking the most New York shit I've ever seen. I can't believe this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also just the way that leasing worked in those days, right? We're like, I know a person who knows a person,

and the woman who owns this building is really strict about her tenants. Right. But she's in control of what- Don't put all your gay porn bags in the trash. She wants to sell them. It's just fascinating that part in New York. Also, you know, to stick with what you're talking about, like the clubs, the cockpit?

I had that. So we have the anvil, ramrod, wolf's den, the cockpit, the eagle's nest. The eagle. We have an unnamed policeman bar and unnamed American flag bar. Yeah. Those are our bars. Those feel right. I mean, there's a real, I mean, there's a real overlap between where our movie stars wound up, right?

Because all of that, all that S&M leather shit goes right into American. action movies. All of it. Oh, interesting. All of that macho energy, it's all of that body work goes right into Stallone in Schwarzenegger and, and

who's a third prong that I'm missing? And eventually the Crisco goes on the Rock and Fast Five just his body butter arms whatever the fuck's going. If only the movies would let somebody put a Criscoe on their forearms. Do they make Chrisco

anymore? Yes, they do. Martino Perry's Mercedes I have as a what stage is the best really nice car. Just parks it right in front of this place. He makes it like the U-turn and I'm just like, that's not a parking spot. I'm like, you know what? It's New York.

The, uh, we mentioned the movie's feelings on police. Yeah. Which is, I think, I've aged pretty interestingly. I mean, not inaccurate, but like it really is picking up on something that is just native to an aspect of policing, which is that there is a deep

psycho power play stuff. Lawlessness among the law enforcers. Yeah. I like when Ted's describing his play and he says, it's boy meets boy, boy loses boy, boy ends up with analysts. They don't make romantic comedies

like that anymore. I don't know if they ever did, Ted. Just grinding out that rent money. Ted, almost there. She's got to work on that seven scene. Poor Ted. Yeah, that's all I got other than my guy James Remar for what's the age of the best. Yeah.

James Remar. He's a Ted's boyfriend. That's James Reh. I was that guy I knew I knew. James Remar! This is the year of the air of Remar. Warriors. 48 hours.

48 hours. Yeah. I mean, banging through. Oh, James Remar. And also really going for it, right? He lived in my neighborhood for a while and there was a couple times I would text Chris. Like, Remar's here. Should I go up to him?

I was afraid to go up to him. Think about what this was like for all those actors to be in this movie with Al Pacino. Yeah. We're like, you get to like come on to Al Pacino and like possibly have sex with Al Pacino. You get to cruise Al Pacino. Yeah.

Like, you get to share scenes that we're talking about gay shit with Al Pacino. Michael Corleone. It's one of the most famous actors we have. It has to have been wild. Any other what's age of best? The arc of Pacino's costumes

throughout the movie. So it starts out, he's just wearing like tan khakis when he goes and meets with Sorvino the first time. Then the first night he goes to a bar he basically is wearing like a blue work shirt.

And he's just like, okay, I'm trying to, black jeans, blue work shirt. And then I think the next scene he's doing his eye makeup. Yeah. The next scene, it's like, it's just,

he keeps adding these pieces to the point where now he's like showing up for cop meetings wearing studded leather belts. And it's just like the way that kind of tracks his

exploration. He goes over to see Karen Allen at one point and she doesn't go, wait a second, what's going on here? Yeah. I think that there's so much signaling happening to us.

Yeah. And it's like, I think, but that's one of the cool things about this movie is that the first time you're watching this, you're not picking up no, I would say. Half of a lot of it.

Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but this is the, the criticisms about the, like, what was left of this movie once everything was, you know, centered out of it. right is that now we don't know where this movie stands yeah on what on murder yeah on

homosexuality like what is it that you want alpuccino to say at the end i everybody i have an announcement to make this whole this whole place is out of order yeah i have been to the gay clubs of new york city the mine shaft is out of order he shouldn't have done that when they wouldn't let them in the policeman part. I'm taking a flame throw into the mind chat. I don't look the part. You don't look the part. Let's take a break

and then we got to hit some more categories. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game

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Enjoy free shipping on all U.S. orders over $75 plus free returns, exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, so the Dent of Thieves Benny Hanna Award for scene stealing location.

Oh. I really like the diner that they go to. Oh my God. Look at you. Stop it. It's the eagle. Come on.

It's the scene in the eagle, which is still there and still, you can still see that. The eagle still happened? Is it still in the meatpacking district? Do they move? It's like 20...

I just kidding. Is there anything in the meatpacking district that's not $20 million? Like, no, they still have that spot. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, it's still going on. Chris, what do you got

for the Great Shot Gordo award. I got a couple. There's one that's like a great freeze frame Gordo which is Puccino silhouette walking into the 712 bar under a bridge somewhere to go meet Sorvino.

And it's just like fucking New York, man. What a town. You know? It's like it's just going into this bar at like 2 o'clock. You can see the water behind him. But I also had the wrestling magazines at the guy's feet. Oh, when they're about to do it. In their first

kill when it's just their boots next to each other. Yeah. And all the magazines are spread out at the bottom and they're just all wrestling magazines. I just thought that was so awesome. I like the shaving shot. I thought it was great shot gaudery where in the mirror you see her starting to put

this stuff on. Did you have one? I do. I think it's the other big sex montage. I think it's on precinct night. You get a big montage on precinct night, right?

Like, that's where you see the Crisco. That's where the Crisco on the forearm. I think that's the sequence where the night stick gets sucked, right? Like, I, I think that's a great shot. It's a painting, right? It's a moving painting. If somebody had just painted that and hung it in the museum, you'd be like,

oh, extraordinary. Extraordinary. And the idea that it's moving, and again, that they're interested in... Tonight at the Whitney, Precinct Night. The Butch's Girlfriend Award for a weak link of the film. I never like it when the Butch's Girlfriend Award actually goes to a girlfriend. I know.

See, I'm not going to blame her because we know stuff got edited out. For me, it's... Isn't it Ted, actually? Oh, that's interesting. I mean... I think for a character... He's a necessary character. You need a narrator.

You need him to give him, like, here's the state of play. And he's like, I don't go... I don't cruise. But here's what's a... happening. I have, and this could go in what stage the worst, too. The whole, the sting operation with that guy when they go to the hotel room. The St. James Hotel stuff? I really just

super confused by that scene. He's all tied up and he's like, you're too early. Well, I think that the implication is almost like he kind of wanted to get it on with this guy and then have them come in. He wasn't, he never at any point was like, okay guys come in. Like there's never like, I know that the

microphone breaks down or whatever, but he's pretty upset when they come in the door even though he's tied up. I just don't understand it. Can I just offer you a very stupid, please. Like, the metaphor brain that I've got right now is just like, this is NYPD premature ejaculation. Right? Like, you couldn't wait three minutes.

All you need to do is wait three minutes. Yeah. But here y'all come. Yeah. Way too soon. Right. And then you're going to torture us for your fuck up. We got this mess.

We got to clean it up. Nobody gets anything out of it. But he's kind of trying to trap the guy, right? He brings all this stuff. He needs him to pull a knife out. Right. And he doesn't, and obviously he doesn't have it. I think that scene's really confusing.

It's confusing, but I kind of like where it winds up in some ways. What's age the worst? So, you mentioned the pro wrestling magazines in the first victim's hotel room. Why are the drive-by shooting in the WWW? These are great times for WWE. Colcogen and Andre the Giant? I don't know. What did they do?

Wait, they did what they needed to do. Excuse me very much. Stu's sentence that Sorvino decides on, you could be out in two years. Eight years. You'll be out in three. He's like, what?

He'll be out in three? Eight years. That's the maximum. I didn't get that. Also, does Sorvino have that? Is he not DA? Yeah, what is he a judge? That's the deal.

Well, wait, maybe there's a, I guess he doesn't determine the pleas. No. Right, no. It's ridiculous. We mentioned the killer with the dialogue being dubbed, which I think they're trying to say the killer, I guess he's using his dad's voice at some point,

but I also think it's true what you said about how they had to redub some of the scenes. Yeah, I think maybe once they did it, once they were like, what if we were a constant, like what if we did this throughout the film to create this disorientation? People don't really know. I think I mostly like it,

but I also want to put in what stage is worse. You mentioned James Franco. They released 2013, him and Travis Matthews, released interior leather bar of film in which they appear as filmmakers working on a film which reimagines and attempts to recreate the 40 minutes of deleted and lost footage from cruising.

I don't know why this happened. Who thought this was a good idea? It's a good example of Franco just flying a little too close to the sun. This was peak, I mean, you would have to go back to that period though. It was like they're filming this is the end that year. Franco's really feeling it.

He's like, I'm going to do this. He's an adapt Faulkner. Nobody can stop. And somebody at some point nodded and we're like, here's some money. That's a great idea. Who was going to that? Even Chris and I didn't go to that. It's only 60 minutes.

It's fine. You're not missed. But I do, I do. Can you imagine one of the six times we hang out of year? You're like, when I go see interior leather bar. I have an idea. I think that there is something about Franco, who at that point would have been, there was all this speculation about what James Franco's sexuality.

Right. And he was having a little fun with it too. Right. And I think in some ways, he was messing with anybody who was curious to know what James Franco gets into, right? Is the thing he's into here

what a great actor was experiencing while trying to figure out how to play this part as a heterosexual? Because I don't know, have you guys seen Interior Lover? I have not. The tension is basically,

the tension is basically this actor they hire who's very handsome and also, like, you know, Al Pacino-like, but gorgeous. He's nervous as a heterosexual about taking this part in this James Franco movie that they all think is going to be. I don't know what they said. Some guys did know what cruising was, that it was a reference to cruising,

but what is his experience going to be? And can he find a way as an actor to approximate- That's what the interior leather bar is about. Okay. Can this guy who's playing this Al Pacino part? have a greater understanding of what Al Pacino might have faced as a straight person

among all these gay people. It's kind of absurd and yet like they actually do film something and it's beautiful. It's too modern but like the point is to imagine what it might have looked like

had Freakin been able to keep the footage which by the way does not appear to exist anymore he said it got burned in some fires destroyed. Yeah. Anyway. There's a newspaper one point

that says homo killer on the prowl, which I think was realistic for 1979, which is kind of crazy. That's kind of jarring when you see that. Any other what's age the worst? Yeah, I got one. This takes me really out of the movie when I'm

watching it. When Al Pacino goes and meets Stewie in the park, there is so much blocking of that scene so that Al Pacino can seem as tall as him that it is fucking hilarious if you look for it. So Stewie is sitting on that bench

and Al Pacino stands on the bench and is about the same height as Stew and then when you walk away Al Pacino is walking on an incline so that he's as tall as Stewie and it's just like one of the most like obvious non- Tom Cruise standing on a

peach box kind of moments where you're just like this guy is 5-5 and it's real Chris Paul listed as six foot energy. That's a good one I'm looking for that when I watch cruz again in two months. I think the dialogue in that first pickup scene where the ostrich feather stuff.

I never been done it with a Martian. All it is is anal regressive. You know, what else he says? I'm an ego. I'm here to be worshipped and adored. It's just so, it's such bad, it's such bad psychoanalyst,

you know, talking through these characters, dialogue writing. Terrible. Terrible. But it works. he takes the guy home. Next category is, was there a better title for this movie?

No. No. No. Think about, sorry, can I just say I NG? Jarens in general, I'm not into. I don't think this is officially a Jarend because there's no object. Oh my God. I forgot for what's age the best.

What? What the fuck is up with all these Noddy November movies having the sickest title card sequences? Oh, yeah. Cruising slowly coming across left. Amazing. Amazing. Like all of the ones. It's picked.

But the cruising the title but also the title card of cruising, you're like, it is, yes. It's cruising. It's like sleek, sleazy, sexy.

Cruising is cruising. It is literally cruising as a sort of nautical situation or as a like vehicular situation. Now every title card just looks like Fantasia or something but like these are like horny fucking title cards. Yes, yes.

Great title. Stephen A. Smith, how does take a word? I don't know if you guys prepared one, but I do have one. I do have one. Go ahead, you go. I'll do mine after.

Let me tell you something, Kendrick Perkins. Paul Sorvino sucks at pool. He has this meeting in the bar. And he's like, hey, Steve, why don't you come meet me while I'm shooting a couple of racks at the 7-1-2 bar? He makes one shot. And then the rest of his pool shots are just like him knocking the cue ball into like clusters of balls on the, and Steve's never like, you fucking practicing or something? Like, he's getting any better than it? All it does, he knocks the cube, he knocks the...

He makes one shot. I think it's actually, he knocks the eight ball. And he's just messing around, but it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in your commanding officer. This is a movie TV thing that's been going on for 50 years. They just don't care if the actors can actually play pool. Yeah. And they're holding the stick. They're holding it like...

Like when Julia Roberts is a Mystic Pizza, she's actually making some shots. It was clear that they worked with her for weeks. It does... The only thing I like about that is that of the... these movies of like the late 70s and 80s, especially cop movies when there's any undercover cop stuff. I just wish we as a society could go back to Bill needs to see me. And it's like, okay, where do you want to meet your office or you want to do a Zoom? And it's like, no, meet me at a bar in like city of industry. Yeah, where I'll be shooting pool. Yeah, I'm going to be

shooting pool by myself in the back. There's seven other people there. Um, do you have one? Why, do you have one? I have one. Go ahead. Let's hear it. Okay. I'm going. I'm going. out on Friday night. I'm at the Eagle. There's like a thousand guys there. Yeah. Like a thousand guys. Is this 1979 or right now?

It doesn't matter. Okay. It really doesn't matter. Okay. There's a thousand guys at this bar. Is there any scenario in which I pick Al Pacino?

No. There's no scenario in which I pick this version of Al Pacino. Pacino. I just don't do it. And why not? He looks sad and tired and unhealthy. And covered in nicotine. And scared. Yeah. I'm not sure he's showered in a few days. Yeah. It's a grab you look to him. I just, I mean, the thing I do love about this movie is that nobody is handsome conventionally in it. Yep. There's one guy. There's the, and even he, because this is a movie about Al Pacino. Yeah. Right? This is a movie about a bunch of guys.

guys who look like Al Pacino. The killer's fetish is Al Pacino. Yeah. And every single guy who is supposed to look like Al Pacino is hotter than Al Pacino. Like, I don't believe that any of these people... That this bar is now electrified by... None of these people are responding to Steve's energy.

They're responding to Al Pacino's. Right. And I'm telling you... Good how to take. I'm skipping Steve every time. Right. Yellow hanky or no? I don't care what that hanky's doing.

This leads to my hottest take. This would have been the greatest Tom Cruise part ever. I was wondering if you were going to have a breakout moment. Now you got it. This is everything I would have wanted from Cruz, circa like 1993. God, Jesus. He's going under the dancing scene, the weightlifting,

him throwing himself into the whole scene and the anvil. You could argue that he did make this movie. movie and that's what Top Gun is. But yeah. Fair. I mean, fair. Yeah. Or legend. How many Tom Cruise movies would you trade to get Tom Cruise in cruising? A cruising remake? Oh, shit. What year

would have been the best Tom Cruise? Easily. What year would have been, what year of Tom Cruise would have been the best Steve Burns year? Oh, I mean, it's like... Like 89? 99. Yeah. Later, you're going Eyes Watch Shutter? Eyes Watch shut. I was, eyes watch shut.

Because the thing Al Pacino does have going for him here is our investment in him. Right. Like the reason we, the reason the movie made the movie, the movie was a hit because people wanted to see what Al Pacino under these circumstances. About Jerry McGuire. No. No. No. Because think about the kind of authority, the kind of like, he was simultaneously in eyes wide shut unaware of what was happening, but kind of down for whatever.

ever did happen. Right? He's Fidelio Curious. Yes. I watched the whole movie last week. Did you? Oh. And?

I check in every once in a while to see if I'm ever going to understand what happened. Do you think we need to do a reshut at some point? We did it for rewatchful that night and that. It feels like the key to the movie is the Lili Sobieski character. For whatever Kubrick is trying to tell us. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like those two scenes are the key to like this Jeffrey Epstein world that

Kubrick's trying to tell us When did we do that? I don't know. We did it like four years ago. I still can't figure it out. Casting what ifs. So there's one really good one that

Richard Gear was... Oh. He was signed. He was like ready to go. Oh. But no. But no. But no.

Because... I think he's too handsome. Yeah. Well, that speaks to his point. But you have to find the sweet spot between those two. Gear wouldn't last 10 minutes. world. He just wouldn't

like they would eat him alive. Like this is the thing that I love about this movie is that nobody, there's no beauty in it. Right? Yeah, I think he's too handsome. The power of the movie is that it's just raw energy. And gear doesn't give any of that.

That's not his... I was thinking young, young Barringer could have been good. Oh shit. Because he was in looking, he's the bad guy and looking for Mr. Goodbar. And yeah, that could, I don't know, he wasn't big enough probably to get this man. You also have to seem like a cop. And Richard Gear, even though his best performance is as a cop,

like, he doesn't seem like that kind of him like Pied Cup. Even though he should win the Academy Word for Eternal Affairs, a movie that we still haven't done? That's his best performance. There's one other casting would have. Yeah. It's not a casting thing, though. Oh.

It's that Spielberg was circling this movie for a while. That's insane. And it's like, if Spielberg directs this movie, I don't believe that. Walter Mondale doesn't win the presidency. Like, I think that if Spielberg directs cruising, Western history is different. Like, I'm not sure what happens.

We still have two Germany's. Umi Goldberg never gets discovered. The Ruffalo Han and Rubinick Partridge overacting award. They knew, and they let it happen. Don't you call me, lady! I come in here, I give these things to you. Give it all you got! Give it all your God!

I treated you like a son! You fucking stab me in the heart. Fuck you. I mean, Skip Lee, just coming in hot from the moment he shows up and just overacting his ass off. Best that guy award. We have, we mentioned James Remar before, but the Joe Spinell Mike Star cop combo is just epic.

They're fucking demons in this movie too. Come up here, I want to show you my nightstick. Oh, man. Just evil that guys. Unbelievable. Joe Spinell makes maniac this. same year. A movie that is not age well.

The Teddy KGB Award for the actor doing his own thing. We don't get to give this out very often, but the I just from shirtless black underwear guy, like I don't know what he's going for. But like Jim Brown and Richard Roundtree could probably turn the part down.

They're on photographs of Jim Brown dressed just like this. Have you seen these? Oh, they're like Like for Halloween? No. For like playgirl or something. I don't know where these films are from. They're like truly like frontally naked Jim Brown and

it is it is the implication that that guy is also a cop. Yes. Okay. Because the great, the one thing that rescues the scene from being like it's never appalling but the thing that makes it more interesting to me is that when you get to the, when he

takes a break, Pacino. Yeah. He goes into the room and the guy's just sitting in a chair waiting reading a paper. And he throws his hat out the window. Yeah. And like he's clearly on the force. He's going through the NBA box scores that night.

But on the Warriors one. He's a Knicks fan. He's all in the world and you know it. Just stop. But the point is what was the conversation like to get him to do it? It feels like that guy's just on call.

It's like, hey man, we're going to have to do that. We got some guys need to shake down. You better get your village people outfit on yo. I'm doing it again. Get it here. It's like really again? I just did it Wednesday.

Dionne Waiter's Award. He's one of the nominees. Bruno Kirby. Powers Booth. James Reimar. I'm throwing Willie DeVille in here because I really feel like this was great for him. I got Gene Davis as DaVinci. Yeah, the prostitute guy.

So this guy, I was like, where is this guy from? Because that guy's, that guy's good. He's in three scenes. And I'm like, where? I know this guy. Dig it, man. He was the bad guy in, 10 to Midnight with Charles Bronson and my girl Lisa Elbacher.

Oh, Lisa Elbacher, your favorite. He was the psychotic killer in that movie. And then he also played a killer in another Charles Bronson movie called Messinger of Death. Oh, yeah. And then he appeared in Fear X. All he does is play really weird characters and scary movies. So there you go. 2002 recasting couch.

I mean, it has to be Adam. It has to be Adam Driver. He's the only. Right? I mean, we do not make... He just signed, by the way. He's in. He's in from cruising.

Who's directing it? Burnthaw. Oh, Wesley. Burnthall. Burnthall. Oh, my God. I mean, because here's the thing. No, say no more, Wesley.

You don't have to make the case for that. I didn't know it was precinct night. God damn! God damn! Half as internet research. Freakin worked with members. of the mafia because they

own pretty much all of New York City's gay bars at the time so they had to condone what a great town I can tell you about that sex when you want to hear about it too

the morgue scene was the first time any movie had ever given or gotten permission to shoot in a morgue and the city's chief examiner

Michael Baden was fired for that decision but went on to become Michael Baden from all the autopsy shows on HBO which I used to love Yeah.

Did you watch those? I get to watch them. I remember. That's a pretty graphic. I love all of those shows. They freaked me out. Karen Al was never shown a complete script. What?

She, her character... What is he? Woody Allen? Her character is not supposed to know what was happening out, but you know, in the movie. So she didn't know? Didn't know. So what did it mean? So what, do you, can we speculate about what it meant for her to pick up that, pick up those glasses and put on that hat?

I mean, she must know. something by that point. Because they're like protesting. I guess something. Yeah, okay. We mentioned the, it was the journalist Arthur Bell who started all the protesting

and at one point they had a thousand protesters marching through East Village. They chaned cruising. You can see some of his articles in the voice archive are incredible. You can go deep dab that if you're interested. The

the Mineshaft would not allow filming. So there you go. Cruising had an X rating initially Friedkin said he took it to the board 50 times he deleted 40 minutes of footage including a lot of graphic stuff and he said that the missing 40 minutes at one point he's like it didn't have any effect on the story

but then there's other times he said it's more clear Pacino might have been a killer at least somewhat in the movie if we had the extra footage so who knows Friedkin's all over the place See I don't I never think that he's a killer I never think he's a killer. But I do think he might have gone home with some guys. Yeah.

I think he might have killed Ted, though. I don't think he killed Ted. Okay. He loved, he actually loved Ted. Well, he's, you know, he wanted Ted's rom-com to make it. Yeah, I don't. See, the thing about this movie that I kind of like, especially from Pacino's standpoint, is he really, I don't know.

I'm not going to say he's fallen in love with Ted, but he's fallen in something. He definitely has a connection with Ted. He's connected to 10. There's a, he got this gay author named John Retchie. Oh. I guess was used as a little bit of a sounding board, and he convinced Freakint to delete when they were pulling a body out of the beginning.

There was a gay liberation slogan. We are everywhere. Yeah, gay John Ritchie, sure. And he's like, you should cut that. Yeah, people will misinterpret that. So there's stuff like that. There's a whole bunch of stuff in there. Did you guys see the disclaimer?

Was there a disclaimer when you watched it? Because I didn't get the disclaimer. Because the controversy at the time also was that there was a disclaimer that popped up at the beginning of the movie. Really? That basically said, hey, this movie is not intended to cast aspersions, doubts, judgments upon the homosexual lifestyle or something. I should have written the exact quote down. But that was incredibly, a lot of people were pissed off about that. Right.

Well, if you care about us, then why are you telling us that you, that you just to tell us you care? What's in this movie? There's an internet theory that Pacino's character is the killer the whole time. And that he's the only one we hear singing the nursery rhyme and he attacks the killer first among other things.

And essentially stalked Stewie. Who really, I guess, in those letters, isn't it? The problem is Stewie, we see Stewie kill the guy. Yeah, right. We see too many other murders happen. I think it's the idea that there might be like multiple murderers happening. Oh, copycat stuff, who knows? I'm not buying it.

Yeah, I'm not buying it either. Also, just the way that, like, desire works when you're figuring out what you want as an adult. Like, you do, I mean, you do do a little bit of stalking. Apex Mountain. Pacino, no, Servino, no. Riemar, no. Freedkin, no. Karen Lenn, no.

What about, um, Chris go? I don't know. Guys using nasal spray? in movies? What about the handkerchief? Well, I'm just talking about the coppers.

It looks like poppers. Yeah. But the guy who comes into the interrogation room and just too swelled and spray. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. Nobody's, I mean, it is the apex for for the S&M leather scene in movies. So I had like gay

late 70s underground something. Not until the gimp in Pulp Fiction. I mean, and even that, that is more of a problem than anything in this.

Right. Yeah. In terms of like, it's, it's, it's, um, decontextualization, right?

That's the fetish. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Best racehorse name from the movie. I have hips or lips. What about party size? Party size.

Here comes party size. That is a really, oh my God. Cocaine. Cocaine. Cocaine. Picking Nets. The killer shooting blanks. Oh.

One of those movie tropes where they always throw that in. because I don't know. It just feels like they're kind of out of ideas when they just whip that one in there. Oh, it's shooting blanks. Yeah, that's weird. The first time he's with Karen Allen, Pacino says,

there's a lot about me you don't know. And it's so overt that I wonder, like, is that just the red herring from Friedkin? I also just kind of wonder, in general, like, where's that couple going? You know, like, how long... Yeah, why does she like him? How long did they get there?

Why isn't she like with a cooler guy? Is he like, I'm going to get this promotion so that you and me can get a place in Long Island? It sucks. Place on Long Island, it's about that apartment. She's like, I think we should cool it off for a little while. He's like, okay, fine, and he just leaves. It's like, go to a bar and meet somebody else. But you know what?

Can I just say, like, the movie has a better understanding of, you know, S&M leather culture than it does have heterosexual relationships. I agree. Like, it is possible to watch this movie. think a gay person actually did me. I'm just throwing that out there. Possible nitpick. Would a serial killer

in the gay community who kills three people be a front-page New York story in 1980? You think it would? I think the New York tabloids love sensationalistic stories. Why did Ted get murdered?

And who did it? I think that you're supposed to think it's James Ramar. right? It feels like Sorvino when they cut in on Sorvino it feels like Sorvino is like oh my God

Pacino did this. Yes. He definitely... Because Pacino's telling him like I'm unraveling this is bad, I gotta get out. There's just no way that he did it.

He's not that far gone. I just, there's no way that Steve Coon. I don't think you can say there's no way. I think it's, I mean, listen, I don't even think Freakin knows

so there's no answer, but there's a word. Like he's super jealous of him. Like he goes over. He almost gets in the fight with James Rebar that time. I just don't think Petino kills anybody. I just, I'm not, I cannot go down that road. Okay.

But I also want to know how Freit can film that sequence and then be like, I don't know who did it. What are they telling Ted is he's, the actor playing Ted is he's lying there on the floor covered in blood? Is Ted like, well, who did this? At least you're not maniac. Right. Oh, boy. Any other picketing? I had the same thing.

I mean, the same... These are also possibly unanswerable questions, but it's just like... All right, we'll hold them. Okay. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all blackcast are untouchable. I mean, this is clearly an untouchable. It belongs to... Oh, I have prestige TV.

But you couldn't. This so belongs to the late 70s. I don't know how you do this. I think a six-hour version of this is actually like really interesting. Where is it being set? What year? I mean, I would be open to them just setting it in 1980 again, like, to end to have it. Or 2022 Adam Driver's setting.

I think that there's an extent to which, like, he's obviously deeply fascinated in this movie with depicting the, like, the theater of, like, these nightclubs and stuff. But I think there's a version of this movie that you could do possibly in a long form, like, TV series, where you're showing a little bit more of his psychological transformation over the course of this sort of. experience that he's having. Like he's late for his fantasy football league. Instead of it's just like, I'm putting on eye makeup, I'm lifting weights,

and now I'm dancing, you know, like... Yeah, I think to Freakin's point, the thing that kind of still keeps this movie fresh, shocking, interesting,

ambiguous, is that it isn't actually about... all the abouts are... they're not coherent, right? I don't even think he totally cares. He just wants to go into this world and get weird.

And I think that means that the movie will never, it's in a specific time, but it's also timeless. And I don't think you get anything. You don't get anything out of being over. But obviously, like, the undercover cop who goes too far is, like, one of the most repeatable and beloved tropes that we have in, like, crime movies. But what would it mean in that to do it in that world? In, like, 2002, the cop would just be gay.

Yeah. You would just have a gay cop. go undercover to try to find or bisexual or no he just would be you just get a gay cop

there are plenty openly gay cops but that takes out all the ambiguity this is why you don't bother doing it yeah you're right we don't need to do

I think that like what if you got a mainstream gay cop like right like a person who's just not in the scene at all right like there is a journey for a gay character

to go on right the provocative thing is like who you cast is Steve in this remake, you know what I mean? You want to watch a character go on a journey, but you also want to watch a star go on one too. Yeah, that's why it's like, do you put Chris Pratt in there?

Oh. I mean, that's... See, I mean, it's interesting that you put it that way because I think, you know, there was a period where like you... I mean, who would you have cast to do, like, you know... For female cruising? I mean, I'm not...

They're like So Gorni Weaver. Oh. Right? Sigourney Weaver goes on... Interesting. We're going to take the meeting. 9 o'clock Friday? If you did it now, like Bradley Cooper...

Yeah. Right? You put Bradley Cooper in this world and see what a movie star like that figures out. How to act. We don't need to do Wayne Jenkins. Just one Oscar who gets it. Probably Freakken. I'd say Freakins.

Unless you want to give it to Willie DeVille. Wait, what? Willie DeVille. He's the guy who wrote the song. He's a guy... No, no, no. I know who Willie DeVill is. I'm voting for Willie

probably in answerable questions Sorvino clearly knows something at the end of the movie what is he he has that look first he sees Joe Spinell and then they're like yeah this guy the guy lives a couple of thing John Forbes has been here

for a couple days and Servino just kind of looks into the distance so does he think Pacino might have killed this guy I mean that gets into Zwanteneo Award is like is the next day Servino's like, where the fuck is Steve.

You gotta come back in. Yeah. Party size. Just! What a line. Is that an actual line or was that a Pacino ad lib? I don't know. Was party size in the vortex at that point?

It is phenomenal. How big are you party size? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, wow. Best double feature choice for this. Oh, what were your unanswerables? Oh, it was just,

Like, did Steve ever go through with any of his hookups? Because a couple of the cruising moments, he's like, it's ambiguous as to whether or not goes home with the guy. I think, that I think, did happen. Did he hook up with Ted? Now, see, when you raise that possibility, I'm still not open to murder, but I'm open to the boyfriend flipping out.

Yeah, it's Raymore. Raymore's, like, controlling this guy is, like, you have to go work at IBM so that I can just do my thing, right? Best double-feature choice for this movie I would vote for the Warriors first then cruising I would do that as a combo I think I'm really going in

at that point into these worlds Well because cruise the war Like I said this to you earlier But like cruising Is acknowledging the energy In the Warriors Yeah The Andy and Red Zouantene Award

For the next day Guessing Pacino and Karen Al Don't get married Well it's like how long Does you make or keep the leather coat on like a month and a half. She's like, she's really hot. She's like, no, you keep that on.

Keep that on. God. But I think they break up. Steve, what's with all the handkerchiefs? Steve? Steve, why are you covered in blood again? What's going on? Steve, why are you covered in shaving cream again?

What's going on? What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I like the aviators. Aviators are cool. I would not pick the humongous dildo in the first victim's briefcase 19-inch dole-th. I like the boots and the socks

before they do it with the wrestling magazines on the floor. Those are some great boots. The aviators would be cool. There was just this huge Hollywood auction. Four-day auction of all these props, one of which was the Shawshank Bible, which I thought would go for like 75K.

I don't know. The actual Bible that had salvation within with the hammer cut into it. How much did it go for? It went for over $300,000. With the hammer, it was $432,000 all in. I did not think of the number you were going to go to. We had the one piece of memorabilia.

Actually, people really want memorabilia. And everything is like 15, 20, $25,000. It's crazy. I think it's prop store.com. I'm not doing it as an ad. It's just you can go look at some of the items. They had one of the castaway volleyball. They had one of the boogie nights paintings, but not the one I want.

Oh, yeah. They're the other one. The one she's working on, not the one that's already up. that's the one I want. Right. So these are auctions and you kind of like... People grab them from the set.

Yeah, it'll be like... That's how they... One of them was the... What's the thing when it's like action? The thing they snap. Oh, the Clapper? Yeah, the Clapper.

They had like, you know, the clapper from saving Private Ryan with Spielberg and Janirsch Kermitsky. Oh, wow. That went for like $80,000. Matt Damon's another one that you would like... For this year? Yeah.

Like, maybe even Affleck. I think Affleck would be great. I'm always going to be able to be talked to those two guys. You put Bernthal in my mind. I can't get that. I know, no, no. I'm just offering more. I'm just offering more.

He owes this after the American Gigolo show. Bernthal is definitely number one, but Affleck is a good number two to me. The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. I just feel like there might be better ways to becoming a detective. Maybe just take some smaller cases and you hope you get promoted. know if you need to do this. But what if... I'm going to dump my life

and go undercover and lose my mind. What if this is like... See, the thing that I like about this is the lesson actually might be... I'm assuming this is a good Catholic kid from some part of New York. Yeah. Who probably had, you know,

like anything interesting about his sexuality repressed by whatever his church-going situation was. And this job was a gift from God. Hmm. You know?

Like... So maybe take the job. Take the job. Oh, 100% take the job. I also think like, you know, like the,

the pathways to advancement and like relative enrichment and that, in that like an environment is probably not great. So he's probably just like, I mean, that is the pathway to advancement,

right? Like, right. In the NYPD of 1979, 1980? I mean, he went the right way. Who won the movie?

Friedkin? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think, I think, freaky. Yeah, I mean, like, the nerve to do it and the nerve to, like, to care, right? Like, he actually cared.

Like, blue chips. Cared about the basketball scenes. Went got all the best basketball purse with that era. I mean, you're not kidding. The real coaches, like, when he's in, he's in. He's in. He knows how to make a movie feel real. Method directing, is that a thing?

Because I think that's the thing all those movies have in common. Yeah. Is that they're so in their moment. And I don't even mean their historical moment, their time moment. He didn't do any period pieces. Yeah. Right? He was an actor who really liked being in the American moment.

That's how I would be as a director. Yeah. I want to be here. Right. No one of the movies about right now. I don't think there's a director who's more here than free kid. Right. I'm not going back in the 1300s with Game of Thrones.

The 1200s with House of the Dragon. But you're speaking my language, Bill. No, I'm serious. I think that like art, and this is a totally different conversation, but the thing that makes this movie so good and so watchable is that it was in its moment.

And we are not doing that anymore. We're not making movies about what it's like to live in 2022. And none of the movies ever feel like a place. No, there's no place. They don't care about place. Freaking cared about New York. He cared about this subculture.

He cared about like these men and their sexual interests. And the only way to get in there as a probably straight guy is to have an avatar go on a journey, not to observe, as he says, but to, like, participate. Immers.

Right? Yeah. And the movie's immersed. And the thing that makes Freakin' such a great director when he was at his best was that he did what the great, like, method actors did. Yeah.

He shot it in the real places, and he's dancing around in his apartment to the... He didn't want up to the germs. Anything. And that is the thrill of this movie. It's real. It feels real. That's it for Not in November.

No, in November's just started. So for episode two. Yeah. Got two more coming. Very excited for next week. You feeling good about this project? Four person pod for the third one. Produced by Craig Coralbeck, as always.

we didn't get Craig's two cents here yeah Craig we didn't get your two cents I don't think this movie was sexually explorative enough explorative yeah for what we get you know the final scene when Steve Burns goes and confronts that killer yeah and he's using all the new lingo like he like knows how to speak in that world now I don't like that you never get to see any of it I don't think you you really get to see his like anguish about his heterosexuality with Karen Allen if you're not going to show any of any sex scenes or anything like

that at least show like him struggling with this. I just don't think they went deep enough with Pacino in the world. I agree. I mean, I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree. Craig wants it naughtier. No,

but here's the thing Craig doesn't realize is the 50th time he watches his movie. The ambiguities. I really do. When we do the recruits. Yeah. I mean, I also wonder if what it's like to watch this movie when like, unlike us, like, we did not grow up with all the porn that people can see. Right.

Right? This would have been like a shocking thing to see. Bill tried, but... Because you would not have been... Like, you can't pick up your phone and just look at a bunch of naked people. Yeah. Well, that was the Noddy November. Dressed to Kill, which we're not doing as part of Noddy November, but...

Which is just wild. I mean, that's another one where it was... It just, everybody goes off the rails here for three years. But Craig, is that, like, do you feel like you've seen it all in some way and you want the drama to be about something else? Maybe, I'm sure I'm desensitized a bit, and maybe the fact that this was in 19... You know, you just couldn't do that in a movie. And I don't know what was in those 40 minutes and maybe adding some of that.

I mean, he definitely shot it. The thing that he was definitely filmed. Yeah. Yeah, and he was using the real people. There was not a lot of actors. No, I mean, it was the customers. He got people in the scene, in the leather scene, to do it.

And so. Yeah, there you go. All right. See you next week on Nodd in November. Thanks, Wesley. Thanks, Chris. Yeah, thank you.