The Rewatchables - ‘Fatal Attraction’ With Bill Simmons, Mallory Rubin, and Wesley Morris | The Rewatchables

Episode Date: August 20, 2019

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin and The New York Times’s Wesley Morris hop up on the kitchen counter to rewatch the 1987 thriller ‘Fatal Attraction,’ starring Michael Douglas, Glenn Close, and Anne Archer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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VUDU.com slash rewatchables. coming up. I will not be ignored. That's not how she says. That led to an evening. We attracted to each other at the party. That was obvious. If you're on your own for the night, that's also obvious.

A mistake. He'd regret all his life. And where's your wife? And you're here with a strange girl, being a naughty boy. I don't think having dinner with anybody's a crime. I've got to see you. He's got to stop. No, it's not going to stop.

It's going to go on and on. She keeps calling me apart. Hello. Every time Beth answers the phone she hangs. I'm scared, Jimmy. You play fair with me? Do you have an affair with her? I'll play fair with you.

I don't want to lose my family. How could you do that? Attraction. I guess you thought you'd get away with it. Well, you can't. All right, Natalie Rubin is here. Wesley Morris from the New York Times. Wow.

Hi. He's here. Hi. We're doing 380s movies with you. This is a dream coming true. We're putting this one up this week, and we have. Two other ones. Three of the iconic 80s movies. Didn't mean to go backwards with you,

but sometimes you got to do it. This one I've been dying to do with you. This is my dream team for fatal traction. If fantasy was here, I feel like he would be silent judging us. I don't know if he could handle this. He wouldn't have been able to handle it. We have a lot of stuff to go in.

What would the judgment be? We're going to have to break down the sink scene. There's some stuff that it's going to get uncomfortable time to time. I want to go frame by frame on the sixth scene. Frame by frame. God bless you. I'll start here. God bless you.

my wife, we watched this with my daughter, which I'll get into a couple of days ago. I'm already concerned. My wife said the moral of the story is don't cheat with a crazy person and don't bring your dog into it. Very upset about the dog, which I want to get into. That's the moral of the story according to my wife. When this movie hit, it tapped into a whole bunch of adultery themes. And in my opinion, really scared a lot of people. Oh, my God.

I think this movie affected more relationships than any movie ever made. I'm going to start there. Oh, negatively. Or maybe positively, like, you stop the cheating. Well, Glenn Close famously has said before that people keep coming up to her throughout her career and saying, thank you for saving my marriage. Like, thank you for scaring me into being a morally guided, principled partner. Yeah.

It's your worst case scenario for my partner slash spouses away for the weekend. This person's eyeball on me a little. little bit. I'm just going to go with it. What's the worst thing that could happen? Right. This is the worst thing that can happen. This is the worst thing that can happen. Because I can say, as a person who has been to many, a book party, by the way, it is done a- I didn't know where that was going for a second. Done a lot of flirty, flirty. And, you know, I always look for a ring. And, you know, what's funny is she doesn't have any girlfriend, so we don't really know what the sex in the city version of fatal attraction is. But, like,

there's no friend to be like, didn't you say a ring or anything? Maybe she just She had to She knew, she knew There's a whole speech Yes, exactly There's the whole speech When they go and have that great,

Wait, what do we do? What do we set this thing up a little bit? No, let's go big picture And then we'll hit some of the scenes. So what I think is fascinating About the effect this movie had Was that The Time magazine cover doesn't,

It's not a cheating is bad It's the thriller is back Is when Michael Douglas and Glenn closed on the cover of Time magazine in like the fall of 87. It is a real embrace of the return of a kind of movie that that previously really had sort of gone out of style. Or I would say graduated from one genre, well, one area of American culture, which was teenagers being killed for having sex to adults made to suffer once again post-Hitchcock, but in a Hitchcock way, for having sex. and a very sexual movie. Oh, yeah.

They had struggled with late 70s, early 80s, trying to figure out how do we do this in a mass entertainment way. Right. And then this movie's like, we figured it out. We're making this a thriller, and it's also going to ooze sex. Yeah, but the interesting thing, though, is that Glenn closed the year before Fatal Attraction was in Jagged Edge, which is not quite the same movie because, you know, the conceit is,

it's more, the contraption is different, because it's set, it's one genre that gets invaded by another genre that didn't quite exist yet, right? Do you see Jagged Edge? Never see Jack. Oh, yeah. Jeff Bridges, may or may not have killed his wife. Glenn Close defending him as the lawyer. Yes.

Right. And then falls for him. Which is a movie that has now, that sort of plot has been happened in, what, 40 movies? Yes, yes. This was one of the better versions of it, though. Right. And the only point is that Glenn Close had clearly. there was a determination on somebody's part in her life

that she was no longer, she had three Oscar nominations at this point just basically for playing your mom. You're like, your light of my life, glow of all glows, mother. Let's go through that. Because she's Jenny Garp and World Accord in Garland. Yes. Which is one of my favorite characters. She got nominated for it.

I love that movie. It's flawed, but I'm a huge fan of it. And she's great in it. And the book, she's such a key character in the book. And nobody really know who. Glenn Close was, does that. She's in the big chill. Yes.

Great movie. She plays really the only one who seems to have a moral center in that movie, other than Kevin Klein, who's moral center is, I get to sleep with your friend because you slept with my friend. Right. Right. And then she's in the natural. She's the lady in wait, which we did a, I mean, we did. Barn sex. From barn sex to synx sex.

What an arc. So this was a good. casting, whoa, Glenn Close is going to play a crazy permed killer? So many of the stories around, there are a ton of casting, what if, for this movie, for all of the roles. Including for Dan, but mostly for Alex and a lot of the stories around Glenn Close's casting, it's kind of fascinating how candid everybody, including Glenn Close, is about whether people thought she was right for the part, specifically because of her sexuality and whether she could bring that irrepressible eroticism to the role.

Nobody thought that she could and she was determined to convince them, which is fascinating. Who are the people? We're getting into that. Okay. Because I actually, this is. We have a whole plan. Here's the thing about me and my movies.

I don't really know anything. Yeah. I don't know about how they get made. I don't know who didn't get cast. I know some things. But with this, I don't know anything. So I'm going to learn some stuff. So you read the same stuff I read.

The underlying theme of it was, we didn't feel like she was sexy enough to get this part. And her trying to prove to the producers and the casting people, I'm actually, I can be sexy. Totally. And I think what's so interesting about that is, first of all, it's not subtext. It's not something you have to parse their comments to sort of find it on earth.

They flat out all say it and are not embarrassed about saying it because it was really a foundational part of landing on her for the role and then making the movie. And also, I think to your point, Wesley, about whether you know that or have read up on it, it kind of doesn't matter. Because when you're watching the movie, it's going to be your first thought.

When you see her, it is. It's actually just better to admit that. Would you have sex with this person? Is that the question? Not, I wouldn't put it quite that. Would you risk your family? What is the question? It's a little surprising that the chemistry between them

is going to be that all-consuming that he's going to be willing to either upend his life or not think about whether that would upend his life. It's just a surprising pairing, but that's what makes it ultimately so compelling. Like, I'm not criticizing that. It's a compliment. She does a good job at being like a little bit of a force of nature. And his character... She's not just a bombshell.

That's not the point. She's intense. And his character is kind of a wimp. He's the guy who like can't get his umbrella open when he's outside. Oh my God. That's a great moment. And he's eating a bag. He's got cheese on his nose. Impudence comes in many forms.

And he's about to hook up. with his wife and she no you have to walk the dog first comes back the kids in the bed like he's just like typical american man who can't totally get his shit together right and then here's glenclose smoking a cigarette with her crazy perm just like eye locking him his wife's away yeah and he just kind of gets caught up in it which by the way has happened in a million movies this was this does it probably the best well it does it the best because there's no subtext right there's There's no, it's not like it has all of the Hitchcock devices with none of the Hitchcock intellectualism, right? None of the sort of psychoanalysis.

There's a very sort of blatant scene at some point where she watches Dan and Beth and Ellen in their new country house, which we can talk about later, sees this, witnesses this scene and goes and pukes. That is not subtext. That is straight up just this woman's emotions are on her sleeve at all times. Let's audible just slightly to something you created in a great line piece that I've stolen from you liberally since. Okay. The From Hell movie trope. Oh my God.

So this movie created the From Hell character. Yes. Which is like the dot, dot, dot from hell. Which then we saw with sleeping with the enemy, the husband from hell. Yes. Hand that rocks the cradle. The nanny from hell. Pacific Heights, the tenant from hell.

Yeah. Internal Affairs. The cop from hell. Oh, yeah. The temp. The temp from hell. The crush. The teenager from hell.

Yeah, they start getting desperate at this point. And then they're just doing, what was the one with Ray Leota, domestic disturbance, the stepfather from hell. Yeah, so everybody, and then they kind of ran out of people from hell. Mark Wahlberg, the My Daughter's boyfriend from hell. Oh, fear, yeah. And then it kind of came back with Gongro, girl. But you love from hell.

Oh, my God. One of your favorite movie tropes ever. And this created, I would say, 40 movies. Well, but I would say the thing that you, it's kind of like, this is the Julia Roberts of the blank from hell genre, right? Like every attempt to re duplicate, to like to get another Julia Roberts going. Right.

It's just an embarrassment because we all have to admit there's only one Julia Roberts. Yeah. And there's, like, this is the, and I, we're going to talk about this, but why this movie is impossible to duplicate has so much to do with these intangible properties. But everything to do also with people sort of misunderstanding

what about this movie as a mechanical, as a mechanical device, why it works so well. Why do you think it works so well, Mao? The animal crime? No, that's, that's tough for me. As you know, spend a lot of time thinking about poor Whitey. Poor Whitey the rabbit. Even Quincy, who, thank God, is ultimately okay, but it's like, Dan, can you go home and walk the dog? The dog's just reading really wire up.

Fuck it. Come on. Take care of your animals. This time, I've watched this movie maybe 25 times. This was the first time I was actually like, oh, God, poor Quincy. It's awful. He's been in the house this whole time. He really has to go. It's terrible.

Who's feeding him, who's walking him. Why does the movie work so well? I think because it allows you to largely guiltlessly, and let's put an asterisk on that and return to it, consume it on multiple levels. You can just have fun with it. It's really entertaining two hours. Pretty crisp. Moves well the whole time. There's not a dull moment.

There's never, there really isn't. Particularly impressive, considering that the bulk of the film takes place in the same settings with the same people, kind of having the same conversation. Just like a slight evolution of it. But if you want to spend a little more time thinking about it or engage with it a little more deeply, then there's a very rich and deep emotional, spiritual and psychological text that you can parse for Alex, for Dan. for Beth, poor Ellen. Oh, Ellen. I mean, what's the rest of Ellen's life like after her bunny was boiled and a person was murdered in her home while she was watching her parents screaming down the hall?

She was kidnapped. Yeah, I mean, what does this movie look like in 2019 if it comes out with the way people overreact to everything? Everything's the same in this movie comes out? Are you making it for 2019? No, I'm saying this version comes out in 2008. I have an argument for like doing this in 2019, but we can talk about it. that later. Um, I actually don't even think it gets greenlit. Yeah. I really don't think it gets

made. I think it's... Really? You don't think it gets greenlit. I mean, for any number of reasons. I would just say it's basically, it's less fatal traction and it's more gone girl. It's about Alex, not Dan. And it's about... And I would argue that this would maybe be, if not an improvement, at least also a compelling way to parse the story because a lot of the things that you would have to change to make the movie in 2019 probably stem from the what's age the worst category, which we'll get to, obviously. But it would just have to be a more nuanced exploration of who she is and why she's like that. It would have to be.

But there was criticism of that at the time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Think about that. People criticizing anything in 1987. Yeah, I mean, I was impressed rereading all this stuff about how Adam and Glenn Close was that this had to be a human being. And it seemed like she was really attached to this character

in a way that she still keeps stuff from the movie and still talks about it. And I think it's still really conflicted about... It doesn't serve it with her. Doing the end, the ending, which we're going to get to later. But they changed the ending of this movie. And I think it really bothered her. I would say, with all due respect to my favorite actress, Glenn Close.

Really? Your favorite actress? I used to when I was a kid, I had a notebook, and I used to rank every week my favorite actors and actresses. By gender, which I don't know that I would do now. Born to blog. Born to be a Grantlander. I would rank them every week. And most weeks, I would just rate Glenn Close automatically. Whether I had seen her in a movie that month or week or not.

She was just number one, number one, number one. I also loved her. And I think that the thing about the ending is, is that the movie isn't the hit that it was with a different ending. Because you couldn't, because part of the sale of the movie was the ending. It was her standing, it's like in the trailer,

she at some point is standing in the bathroom with Anne Archer. And we can talk about Anne Archer at some future point. I would love to. I mean, it just, it just sort of, a different ending. I know, I know. My eternal life.

I mean, Ann Archer. To me, it's like a Penny Hardaway, you know, Tim Tebow's 2011. Just wondering why she didn't make the Hall of Fame? I don't know what happened. It's astonishing. I don't know. But I think that the ending is what makes her a star, right? I mean, the whole thing makes her a star.

But there's something about, like, the movie selling her out and her being on board with at least the selling out of the character. is it. She wasn't on board with it. Right. Well, I mean, but she shot it, right? Like, I mean, I'm not saying that she... Sounds like it took a lot of convincing, though. I think it sounds like she fought it for two solid weeks. But she's in...

But she's in... She did it, though. As a performance, she is in that moment. Oh, yeah. And I think as a testament to how good she is, I mean, most people... I mean, I don't know. I can't speak for most people. But I have been devastated by the deaths of two, quote, villains, unquote, only twice in my end.

entire life. This movie and misery. There are the two movies where the putative villain dies a horrible death and I am devastated for said villain. And everything to do with that has to do with the woman giving

the performance. Totally. And Glenn Close it's funny because you only ever see Alex alone maybe two or three times. And And every time you see her alone, Dan is somewhere in her line of vision, right? Except for when she makes the phone call to get the phone number after she's been dialing and dialing and dialing. And she calls the operator and calls information. My place for yours.

Remember calling information? Yeah. Yeah. And she's calling information. And do you know what's a rate? Like, this is the weird thing about this movie. What is a raid around her as she's making this desperate phone call to the operator to get this new number? It's like, she's got a glass of wine going.

Yeah. She's got a bag of half-eaten Oreos. Doritos. There's a pint of Hagen-Daz. That's Tuesday night for you. It's a normal evening in the Ruben-Levin household, folks. That's the judgiest thing in the whole movie. That's the meanest shot in the home.

Like all of those things? I will say we weren't worried about anyone's feelings in the 1980s. No. So a lot of the arguments that would have come out of this movie, especially now in the hysterical Twitter era, Nobody was even thinking that way. You went to this movie and you're like, oh man, that guy made a mistake. Wow, he's really going to pay for it.

I hope he can save his family. It was like Jaws. Like at some point when you're... Oh, that's a great comparison. The audience is watching this and Glenn closest now the shark and Jaws. And Michael Douglas says, we're a shiter trying to get his way out of it. Yeah. I think...

That's a disturbingly great comparison. I think nowadays there would be this whole mental health argument that sprung up for it. Yeah. But I also think her killing the bunny would... work against her in some things, too. It would just be more complicated and people being so upset that she killed a pet. Terrible. And people care about pets more than human beings.

Well, that was a thing at the time, though, too, right? Like, I mean, people were actually, when he puts, when she throws acid on his Volvo, I can remember in the theater as an 11-year-old kid, he puts the bat, the rabbit down near the acid. And everybody in the theater's like, oh! I know. Dad, pick up the cage. Breathe it in the fumes. It's very alarming. I was more upset about the Volvo.

I really, I like those early 80s. Vos. We're really nice. But this is a big of two car, two destroyed cars. Can we talk about Michael Douglas' incredible 1985 to 97 run really quickly? Yeah. You know how I feel about Michael Douglas.

This is a 12, 12 and a half year run. Romance in the Stone, Jewel of the Now, fatal attraction, Wall Street, Black Rain, War of the Roses, basic instinct, falling down, disclosure, American president, Ghosts in Darkness, the game. Strong. Nobody had a better sense of reading a script in the bathtub at 11.30 and being like, oh, this will be a hit. I'll do this one. Like, his batting average was the highest.

Well, maybe Tom Cruise, but I don't even think Tom Cruise had a batting average like that. To know what projects to do? Oh, people are like this. I'll do it. And then it was also like, who's this competition for those 12 years? This is for the imperiled American male. Well, what's interesting to me, I'm actually writing it. I've been, I don't, I know I've told. I've told. you this. I've been struggling for like 18 months on this Michael Douglas thing that really is not, should not be that hard to do. In your book? No, my book. My book has nothing to do with Michael Douglas. I'll be interesting.

No, it's, I've been struggling with, I just wanted to write a very quick, simple thing about Michael Douglas. I watched all the movies. I determined, here's what I determined of Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas is the, is Tom Hanks, we sort of romantic, like we have this idea, this is classic American, right?

classic American delusion. We hold up Tom Hanks as the person, like as our every man, as the person that we actually think we are. But if you think about it, and not too hard, actually, Michael Douglas is the person we actually are. We actually have been. He's never the nicest person, the best person, the most decent person.

Even when he's the president of the United States of America, he's still kind of, I mean, he's not an asshole, but he does a dickish thing to Sydney in the American president that's not cool. He does a good job of being complicated. Right. But he, but here's the thing.

He's not acting. Like, you know how some actors will act the complication? Like, if you give Daniel DeLois the part, he'll be acting. I mean, this is to take nothing away from how great Daniel DeLews is. But Michael Douglas has an effortlessness

that, you know the scene in fatal attraction? where he goes over to Alex's house and he chokes her. And then there's a shot. I know. He chokes Alex. And she's on the floor. I think he said it so casually.

Right. Well, I mean, that's the sort of pernicious thing about this movie. It's a thriller. And there's a shot from the floor up to his face. Yes. And he, I mean, I don't know how, this is not acting at this point for him. He is. He wants to kill her.

He wants to kill. But not only that, but it's that. Some found it look he has like, oh my God. What am I doing? Well, the other thing is when she comes to his office after the suicide attempt. In the leather trench coat. And he kind of sees her and he has it. Those shoulder pads.

That coat. And the way he handles that scene, that's why Michael Douglas had such a great run. Because he can be the guy who just strangled you, but he could also be the guy as like, oh, fuck, hey, let's go in my office. Let me give you your post-suicide attempt hug. Yeah, okay, please never come here again. Well, to Wesley's point, he's, the reason that that shot of his face stands out so starkly

is because that is one of the only moments in this movie, despite all of the oddities and horrors at play, where it feels like he has moved beyond the bounds of normal behavior, whatever normal would look like for him or for any person. Like at the end of the day, even when he's transgressing, it's a thing that people do, right? It shouldn't be, but it's a thing that people do. something that is relatable.

And he's a movie star, but he's relatable. He's smarmy and gross and you kind of hate him. But you're also sort of drawn to him. Oh, my God. You're more than sort of drawn. Yeah, he's magnetic and repellent all at once. So Michael Douglas, attracted to him. Would you have made out with Michael Douglas?

Never personally, to my taste, my mom, like a top two or three movie stars. Same for my mom. Up there with Harrison Ford. Huge with the moms. Harrison Ford, Michael Douglas, and. Richard Gerey. Harrison Ford was the guy you married. Michael Douglas was the guy he had the affair with. Well, this is the thing about Michael Douglas' stardom, right? Like, he could either be a lawyer, or he could be an electrician. It could go either way. Or he could be Gordon Gecko.

Or he could be, right. I mean, that's sort of more than he could be the bad boy cop. See, I always felt like when he was trying to be the bad boy cop, like in Black Rain, even basic instinct. It was like him trying to push against the, I'm kind of the toothless, imperiled America male who things work out. Right. But even his obsession with Catherine Chamele, with Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct, is that same kind of vulnerability where he's crossed a line and he has a moment in his persona where he's like, oh, shit, I think I'm in some territory that I did not understand I was in. That's key, though, because for him, the oh shit moments tend to stem from a place of self-preservation. Yes. not a sincere moral insight. Oh, no.

At all. And that's part of the appeal. That's part of what makes it interesting to watch. The great thing about him and women, though, is that he has never taken apart with a woman who didn't always have some upper hand. And what he needs as a star. And what he needs as a star is a movie that's on his side. Because he's such an interesting star because he doesn't need as a star to win.

any scene or any fight because he knows, and he understands the misogyny of the movie-making apparatus, he knows the movie's always going to have his back. He knows no movie he stars in is ever going to let the woman have the last word, except for The War of the Roses, which their friend directed Danny DeVito. Well, and then it's funny, Goldman wrote a whole chapter about Ghosts and Darkness, a movie that he was really attached to, and then Michael Douglas became involved. The one movie he shouldn't have made.

And then he decided, I'm going to be the star. Now, this was 12 years into his epic run. And that was the first time he's like, I'm actually, let's cater the movie to me. Right, right. Instead of this movie works. Yeah, he just was miscast. I had this written down.

We might as well ask it now. We don't have on Michael Douglas in 2019 or do we? Who is it? No, there's no Michael Douglas. Have we had one since? No. Who should have studied, you remember Will Smith? I was just about to say Will Smith could have taken this turn.

Will Smith? Yeah. I mean, it didn't happen, obviously. Will Smith had other priorities. Who would you have wanted to be Michael Douglas in 2019, now? This is tough. Like, could this have been Chris Evans if he didn't go to the superhero around? No, no, he's too typically leading man.

We'd also, I'm sorry, this is perfectly obvious to say, but we don't have sex anymore. We don't have sex. Nobody's fucking. There's no fucking. Have you watched Euphoria? I'm sorry. It's all happening on TV, man. Okay, but it, uh, but, yeah.

It's pretty dark. It's fucking with punishment, right? And there's no... That's not in the poster. Nobody, nobody, nobody is embodying sex, right? Nobody is, nobody is accidentally... Michael Douglas is not the embodiment of sex or sexiness. He's up...

The thing that makes him, like, such an appealing movie star is he is always taking parts that put him in, in environments that normal men find themselves. You know who it is on TV? Not in the movies. I will not go so far as to say it on the movie star level, but it's Dominic West for TV. Oh, God. I like it.

I like it. Literally, the affair. Oh, my God. That's an impoverished man's Michael Douglas. We should mention Adrian Lynn, the director, because you talked about it nobody has sex anymore. That might be one of the reasons Adrian Lynn isn't exactly red hot these days.

He dabbled. This is my mom's favorite director, which should tell you a lot about my mom and my relationship with her for a reason. Her favorite movie ever is nine and a half weeks. I don't know what to tell you. But she, he made that movie. He made this movie. And then Unfaithful with Diane Lane, which.

Indecent proposal. Indecent proposal. Yeah. He dabbles in the I shouldn't have sex with this person, but I did. And now I'm dealing with the ramifications of it. It's a big Adrian Lint theme. Yeah. And a personal favorite of Mallory's.

The thing sexy also has said was inspired by a real moment in his life. I mean Yeah, that's out there That's fascinating Also, but think about Just to talk about The excellence of this movie And like the kind of person

Adrian Line is like where he Is it line or Lynn? It's line Okay, my bad I didn't notice I thought it was Lynn So he Adrian Line

Yeah But the thing about him is He's not very deep Right Like and so He came up in this In this TV commercial Making era

Right? Like he and the Scott brothers, Tony and Ridley. Yeah. They, these are not sophisticated, like, thematic or ideological or sort of moral filmmakers. They're just really great, not just. I mean, it's so much of what's great about them or can be great about them when they

are great, is they're really great about understanding how to build sensation and, like, to, like, build pleasure and build a movie that is going somewhere to, to make you as happy or as like to get the most out of an audience as a movie can get. Do you think he cares about morality? No. I mean, well. My take would be not really. I think he just cares more about conflict.

He also made that Lolita, that Showtime Lolita with Jeremy Irons and, oh, God, what was that? What's the woman's name? Dominique Swain. Dominique Swain. Oh, look at you. Yeah. I said Adrian line's name wrong, but I got Dominic Swain. Big Lolita scholar over here.

This movie got a lot of Oscar nominations. Yes. Best picture actress, supporting actress, our girl Anne Archer, director, screenplay, editing. All the right ones. All the right ones. This shocked me. It was the highest grossing film of 1987. Yep.

It made $320 million. $14 million budget. Yeah. The best actress that year, just going through this quick. Share! Share wins for Moonstruck. Share! Glenn Close.

Holly Hunter for Broadcast News. It's the best, best actress. Merrill Street for Ironwood and Sally Kirkland for Anna. I don't remember that movie. Yeah, she's Sally Kirkland. That is a murderous route. Share winning that. I don't know if that would happen again.

I actually think Holly Hunter would win again if we did that over again. No? I don't know. I feel like everything worked out the way it should have, right? Because. And yet Glenn is still waiting for her Oscar. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's tough.

So Roger Ebert. Oh boy. Two and a half stars. Oh, boy. What's his issue? He said, Fatal Attraction is a spellbinding psychological thriller

that could have been a great movie if the filmmakers had not thrown character and plausibility of the wins in the last minutes to give us their version of a grown-up Friday the 13th. I knew you would like that take.

Interesting. That's fair. So how many stars does he give it if they don't change the ending? He said it's a shame that the film's potential for greatness was so blatantly compromised.

Give it three stars, Roger. It's a fucking good news. Settle down. Settle down with your blatantly compromised. Let's take a break and then I want to talk about one of the most famous reshot endings ever. Hey, everyone knows about the risks of driving drunk.

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You get arrested, incur huge legal expenses, possibly even lose your job. So what can you do to prevent it? Plan a safe ride home before you start drinking. Destined that a sober driver, call a taxi. If you know somebody who's been drinking, take their keys. Arrange for them to get a sober ride home. We all know the consequence of driving drunk. But one thing's for sure you're wrong.

If you think it's no big deal, drive sober or get pulled over. All right. So I'm not sure how many people know this. I feel like a lot of people do. I didn't know until the laser disc came out. And then somebody wrote about it. And then I think he just said laser disc. Laserdisc.

Was that what's called? Yeah, of course. I just haven't heard that word in a while. I think, I want to say Showtime ran the movie and they ran the deleted ending after. And it was the first time I'd seen it. And it was like somebody took the top of my head off, took my brain out and spun it around and put it back in. So they spent $1.3 million reshooting it. And why they reshot it was the original ending.

And you can see it because there's the seeds of it in the movie. When he goes to kill or he decides not to and she comes at him with the knife. Right. He disarms her of the knife. Touches it, gets those finger prints all over it. Close up of the knife. And then what happens. Also, the Madam Butterfly plot, which is overt foreshadowing for the ending that they originally filmed.

So what happens, she kills herself with the knife and makes it seem like Dan murdered her. The police show up at his house. He's like, what's going on? They're like, where were you last night? He was like, I went in Alex. What happened? She's dead. You don't think I killed.

did you? It's like, well, yeah, actually, we do. The apartment was a mask. Your fingerprints are over here. We kind of think you might have murdered her. Oh, man. And then the wife, the great A. and Archer, runs up to the attic to find somebody's phone number, sees the play me, Alex tape that she leaves in the car, puts it in, plays it, and it's Alex saying, I'm going to kill myself if you don't, blah, blah, blah. She grabs the tape, runs out, and we're supposed to think he got off. Right. The test audience just saw that. And they were like, what the fuck? Right. They wanted her to pay.

No. Yeah. I hate this. You have to fix it. But we're a capitalist punishment society. Like, the only justice that we feel is served in a movie like this is to, like, be able to cheer for the demise of the person we think is the villain. But at the hands of who? That's the thing.

They wanted the wife to kill her. She dies in both endings. It's about who's in control. It's about the capital punishment part is the thing that I'm talking about. Alex's choice to kill herself is not satisfying because we are bloodthirsty people who want moral justice. And the only moral justice in a scenario like this is for Anne Archer's character, Beth, the wife, to do the killing. FYI, cheering in the theater when I saw this. Yeah, I can't believe.

Chearing when I saw. That's sort of what upset me the most, right? Because I did not feel what the audience felt. I mean, I did. Was sobbing in the theater. I am. Like, that in misery just opened tears. And I can remember feeling so alienated from the response to Alex's being shot.

Right. And I just was like, there must be something wrong with me. So Glenn Close said she fought against it because she thought her character would self-destruct and commit suicide. She fought against it for two weeks. She said I wasn't playing a cliche. I was playing a very specific, deeply disturbed, fragile human being who had grown to love. but she does agree that the film would not have been as successful

because she thought it gave the audience, quote, a sense of catharsis, a hope that somehow the family unit would survive the nightmare. Do you agree with this? I just think it's fascinating to consider it from all three primary characters' point of view or to look at each of them as a lens.

Because Alex is the most consequential figure to consider, but it's also about Beth and specifically about Dan and the fact that audiences cared so much more about Alex being punished or having to pay than about Dan having to pay. When he cheats and threatens his family, we'll obviously discuss Alex's psychology and behavior at length over the course of the podcast, but put that aside for a second, still has no interest in taking responsibility for the fact that he impregnated her, breaks into her apartment,

he said you'd pay. Breaking an entry for the abortion. What a guy. What a guy. I'll get you a check right now. Breaking and entering physically abusive. Breaking and entering twice. Yes.

Assaults her, etc. This is not a person that audiences should be running for. That's alarming. This is what I'm saying about the big. It's a tough one. This is why Michael Douglas never really had to be afraid of taking risks, right? Like, he never had to be afraid of taking a risk because he, I don't know if he understood this. but, I mean, he's a person who grew up in the movies.

His dad has Kirk Douglas. Like, he knows... Well, he was also a really legitimately successful producer. Yes, yes. He also understands what makes a successful movie. But I also think that just the inherent misogyny of the movies and the inherent misogyny of this culture make it really hard to think about the idea

that Dan might also have a mental illness, right? that Dan might also be crazy. And it isn't just that this alleged crazy woman is making Dan crazy. But there's a part of Dan that gets unlocked by this affair that previously had never been accessed by all of the niceness and like, what is the, what would the Ethan Allenness of the life that he's built with this other woman? And I think the thing that's so electrifying about that moment where he, they see each other at the party,

he's a mark in some way, right? This is like a press, this is the beginning of a Preston Sturge's movie that takes a terrible turn into Hitchcock. They meet at this party. She's clearly,

she's obviously very, very smart. She's throwing it out there. Right. Well, I mean, think about what she wears to the party. She's definitely the hottest dressed woman at this party. I was going to say the hottest dressed

book editor in a long time. And ever, right, ever, ever, ever, ever. Not exactly a Lolita industry. But if you think about, Think about what Beth, Beth and Hildy, her best friend, who's played by Ellen Foley, who was really a thing in the 1980s, and it's just wonderful. Anyway, she and Hildy are trying to figure out what to wear it of this thing.

What do you think Alex's conversations were? Nope, got this. Showing up in whatever, whoever made that dress. I think that there's just something about that woman needing to connect to something. And she knew, like, in the way that I have, I know. is a person who's picked people up. I kind of know. Oh my God.

Yes. I'm, I can kind of, for my purposes, I can tell what, what I'm going to get in some ways. Or like what I want or what I think is happening with this person. And she sees this dude sits next to him. Smooth,

but not really that smooth. Oh, no. A little awkward. And she's like, this is somebody. I could ding, ding, ding, ding. Can definitely control a little bit. Again, he has cream cheese on his nose in the second meeting.

She couldn't have done this to Clint Eastwood. She could, I mean, it would have been an interesting challenge given, you know, Clint Eastwood having made Play Misty for me, which is a movie that comes up in the conversation around fatal attraction. But so to tap that theme from within the movie into the theme about how audiences perceive the ending, it's the same idea. Control is the key in all of it. Because the reason that people preferred or the audience wanted this ending and not

the one that was originally filmed, is because it allows you to basically say, okay, if I made these mistakes, I could, my life could continue. My life could continue. I could close that. This is because men control Hollywood. This is written and directed by two men.

I just don't. It's like, thank God. It ends with, they're in their nice little house in Bedford. They show the picture of the two of the kids. The last shot is the family picture. And it's like, thank God that lady's out of our life. Right. This was a blip.

This was a blip. I don't think it's a total blip for Anne Archer because I think about three weeks later they're at dinner and she has two glasses of red wine and really lays into him and maybe throws a glass of wine in his face and then they probably go on a hiatus. Right, because interestingly, like she is blameless in this, right?

Like another movie, like a more hateful movie would have also blamed her for, I mean, it's true that if you were making some kind of feminist, argument. Like she doesn't work. Her job is homemaker and mom. And she spends

a lot of time in her family structure, right? Don't you dare besmirch anything about Ian Archer in this movie. I can't. It's not possible. It's not possible. She's an absolute icon. The most traumatizing thing for this movie

for me is that anyone cheating on A. That was so upsetting. What are you doing? He won the lottery. She's incredible. She's incredible. about her killing Alex, right? Yeah. Is that she is perfect. She's the perfect wife.

She's utterly tolerant. She's sweet. And unlike a lot of these movie wives during, well, in the 80s, it was interesting because all the movie wives really were sexy. She's sexy. And it's not like, it's not a mystery. It's not a mystery about why they're together, right?

I mean, she obviously represents some ideal. But there's something kind of seedy and, and Michael Douglas. has a quality that is not Ethan Allen at all, right? You know, she made that whole. There's no reason for him to stray. None that we can see at least. Well, I think actually there is a reason, though.

He's kind of a loser. Well, but in terms of what- He's not cool enough. He's like he can't believe he can get this book editor at the bar who's interested in him. I don't know. That's the real reason. It's a class issue.

I think there's, I feel like he doesn't, we never meet anybody in his family. Because I think that like- Oh, you think he married? And Michael Douglas in movies never has parents. He has never had parents. Partly it could be because, like, the only thing you're probably thinking about Kirk Douglas. But I also think you would have to be able to explain how that person who looks like that

winds up. You just can't find parents for him. Wait, we're way behind schedule. We got to get to the categories for 45 minutes in. Oh, my God. Categories. Most rewatchable scene. Mallory's sink-sex scene go.

Come on. I mean, this is obviously the winner, right? Well, we have more scenes, but... We can talk about all of them, but... You keep going. She was texting me freeze-framed pictures from the six-sex scene. Come on, break it down. Break it down.

You love the meticulousness of how they put the plates in the sink. What was it that really got it for you? It is so weird. and riveting. You're like, I cannot believe what I'm watching. The things that they are doing. Oh, the water. Yes.

The water. So, right. Plops her down on the sink. She turns on the water. Reaches behind her, turns on the water. There are dirty dishes everywhere. She basically creates a bidet in the sink. It up a little bit.

Splash in the water, getting clean, then changes the trajectory of the water, brings it around the front, and starts putting it in his mouth, hydration during sex. And the look on his face, the look on his face during all of this sex. Michael Douglas makes the best sex faces in the history. Like, he could teach a pornography class on, like, just reacting to having had hot sex with women. Yeah, he's very comfortable. Are we supposed to gather in Archer maybe not the most excited? sex, the Beth Gallagher character.

But we never see them have it, so we don't know. But clearly Alex Forrest has unlocked something in this person. Yeah, in the, this is a separate. Dirty dishes and water. Separate sexual sequence. But the elevator blowjob. You know, she's like, have you done it in an elevator before? And he's like, well, not no while.

You need to do this some justice. She is like, have you done it? Have you ever done it an elevator? I'll bet you have it. And she, like, so much, that's great. That's great. So much about what's great about Glenn Close in this movie is physical. The way she understands and can command her space within a frame,

the way she closes that elevator gate is so hot. Also, one of the things I love about it, the whole sequence from the dinner where they basically discuss calmly, rationally, whether they are going to have an affair. Can I just read you some of the dialogue? Animalistic nature of the sex scenes themselves? Like that juxtaposition is really stark. I don't think having dinner with anybody as a crime. And then she says, not yet with a laugh.

S subtle. Was that the one, are you discreet? Yes, that's the same conversation. Me too. It's actually great, right. Yeah. I had that written down as a rewatchable scene because... That's great.

So it's a complicated scene, too, for the rest of the movie, because she's basically laying it out there. We're both adults. let's have some fun, no strings attached. So when he says that later, it's actually like, that scene does set up. She's going. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Let's have fun tonight and there'll be no repercussions. There is an understanding that they enter into. That's what the tension stems from. It's an unwritten contract. Yes. The fact that he is basically stupid enough to believe that that's possible, to think that you could do that and that there wouldn't be

any consequences that you could just walk away. I think this is why Michael Douglas characters never have any parents. It's because, I do, I think it's because, like, you would just understand that the father probably, there would just have to be some explanation that the father would give to a Michael Douglas character about the situation a Michael Douglas character was found himself in. And I think in this movie, the dad would be like, let me tell you about something that happened in 1979. Yeah.

There is the great moment when he visits Beth. the hospital after her car accident. And the dad's father. I had that rind out for Wednesdays of a business. She's wearing it. Yeah. That would have been me. That would have been me.

Now that my daughter's dating, I plan on having that look at a lot of people. Back to the sink sex. Yeah. She's feeding him the water. Back to the sink sex. This is why we couldn't invite Sean. Pouring it on to herself. Pulling her shirt over.

We're getting a little bit of like a wet t-shirt or wet white blouse action going on. Pulling her shirt off as it's drenched. then they move. There's the great like, let's kind of walk as we're fucking worried that they're going to fall. You're worried about their safety. They make it to the bed eventually.

And then there is the absolutely iconic post-coital conversation where she complements him on the sex, clearly satisfied, and he says, and I turned on closed captioning to make sure that I had this correct. Oh, thank God.

Thank God. Like, yeah, yeah, I wrote that down. He's so happy that he... What does that even mean? I think it means that if he had not brought her to climax or the sex had not been good, then it wouldn't have been worth it to have the affair. But he feels good about himself as a man. He feels validated as a man and a sexual partner in that moment.

I undemended this movie and didn't realize I on-demanded the ovation TV version of it. Oh. So they're about to have sex. And then all of a sudden they're in bed and I'm like, Oh, no. Wait a second. There's an airplane version is? Yeah, there's an airplane version out of the bed.

Why even watch? Which is probably the one I should have shown my daughter. Wait, can I just say one thing about just... Or sync sex? Well, just that whole sequence, right? Because it isn't just... Think about the thing that she unlocks in him. And think about the contrast we're supposed to experience with his life with Beth.

which at this point is what, like 10 years old, maybe a little bit longer than that? He says how long they've been married. Nine years, I believe. So she, they, they meet at that party. They meet at that meeting. She tells them about the bagel. His umbrella won't open.

She gives him the umbrella. She goes, I know a great place. What do they do? How do they get to that restaurant? They fucking sprint. She is such a physical person. And it's irresistible. Even when she's sitting still,

there's something about, like, her gravitational force. It is pulling him in. So after that, what do they do? They go home. They cut from the restaurant when she's like, we're too consenting adults. I don't see what the problem is.

I don't know what the deal is. Let's just go home. They do it. They go home. They're doing the thing on the sink. He picks her up and like grabs her ass and carries her into the bedroom. When they're done having sex, he unpeels himself. It's like it's not, it's like no post-coital you've ever seen.

He has unpealed himself from her. And the look, like the demented, look of bliss on his face. It's just classic Michael Douglas. Then she says, How much energy do you have? How much energy do you have MF? Because we're going to go salsa dancing right to F now.

We're going out. And so she's like spinning them around in some salsa club. And he is having the, he's like blown away. Then they get home and he's like, oh. No, she blows them in the elevator. Oh, the elevator. Right. Then the elevator, that great closing of the gate, she gives him the blowjob.

They get too hard. front door and he's like, I gotta go home. I'm totally wiped out. And she's like, the fuck you are. Get in here, yo. And she brings him back in. It's like, his mind is blown in so many ways.

And the thing that is annoying to me about this movie, the one thing is that because I've been, I've been Dan. I've never cheated. But I mean, I have been a person who just wanted to extract myself from a situation that I've like wrung every last drop out of and have nothing left to give. And the thing about Alex is she's got boundless energy, right? And she is,

she is insatiable not just sexually, but for life. This is a woman who has an appetite for being alive, which is why I really don't buy the Madam Butterfly dismount. That's fair. I feel like both those endings are a disservice to this character. And the thing that makes her so seductive, not just to Michael Douglas, but to the world. Glenn Close became a star. in this part because the performance is full of life. He likes going close. We have to keep going. Another rewatchable scene.

That was as riveting as a synch sex. Oh, my God. The second date at the park with the dog, he calls her, I got to go to work. I got to walk my dog. And she says, bring the dog. I love animals. Yeah. I'm a great cook.

It's great. It's great. Maybe the most painful foreshadowing in cinematic history. So he decides. this person he had a one-nighter with, his wife is still away, she's staying in the country for an extra day. What could go wrong?

I'm going to bring my dog. My white lab, Quincy, on my park date with this mistress that I met 24 hours ago, my wife thought this was a bigger violation than the cheating. Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah.

She was like, if you ever cheated on me, first of I'd kill you. But secondly, if you ever brought, like Willie, to Willie over to the lady's house. Then I would like mutilate you and kill you. The cheating is obviously unforgivable, but the justification for the cheating is,

you know, the mind and the heart or not the body, basically that it is just about the fix and the thrill. That's why he wants to get out of there so quickly because once you stay beyond that initial thrill, what is it? It's just real life. Anybody who's married knows that the thrill is very, very temporary.

Talk about a blip. The rest of it is just eternity. Right. But when you bring the dog, when you bring your work, you're bringing your life, the heart of your life into this other person's realm. And then there are no more boundaries. Then you've lost the ability to say this was just this one moment in time. So a couple other key points. You mentioned Glenn Close's sneaky athleticism in this movie.

Yes. Great arm. Whips the dog, like a little sidearm, but like with some velocity. She should have played Catch in the Natural at the end. No, no, it's for real. And then he falls down. Yeah. And she thinks he's having a heart attack.

Incredible, sprinkling form by him. Like, really. No, this is really good athletic form is. The physicality of this movie is. So then she makes, he makes the, uh, the heart attack thing. And then she said, my father died that way. Right. And he's like, oh, I'm sorry.

And she's like, no, just kidding. He's alive in Arizona. I'm out right there. I'm like, that's weird. I'm done. But, yeah. I'm cutting off all. Crucially, that was the lie.

Right. But that was weird. Just a weird moment. Next rewatchable scene, Alex finally getting possessive after the second sleepover where she's hanging out in the bed and her breasts are out

but then there's a side angle where the sheets are over there and some bad editing. But she starts getting mad. She kicks them. And you get out! Taring the shirt? Then leads to

Dan, I'm sorry. And then it's like, oh, she tried to slid a wrist. Wow. This is now, this is now turned. Yes. Tough. That is a really, really compelling and frightening five minutes. Yeah.

Do you believe? Here's the thing. It seems abrupt by her. Yes. I was just going to say. Somebody who's that confident. Is that much going on and then just quickly. But who knows?

The wrist slitting just, I mean, even to my 11-year-old self, I'm like, oh, I'm watching a movie. I don't know. I think that's where, again, what does this movie look like in 2019 or what would it have looked like if it had been approached a little differently then? And again, I love the movie. It's incredibly entertaining. But that's a moment where you're like, I just need to better understand who this person is and what is actually going on. Is there a mental illness? It seems so. What is the mental illness? At that point, there's a mental illness. Well, but one of the things that's

fascinating about it is that, you know, Glenn Close talks about how she took the script to multiple psychiatrist to make sure that the things that Alex was doing seemed true to form. Again, the writer. My favorite actress. Just putting, like, just. Very diligent. The writer basically. James Dearborn is though.

Yeah. I have a quote from him about this. He doesn't view Alex, his creation, as mentally ill, which I just think is wrong. Well, you know whether he sees her as then a woman. Right. Here's what Alex is. This is 32 years ago, though. Alex is emphatically.

not a monster. She is a sad, tragic, lonely woman holding down a tough job in an awkward. We're going to talk about the career thing. Oh, my God. Alex is not a study in madness. She is a study in loneliness and depression. Now, I would argue that those things are not mutually exclusive. And I'm sorry, they're also mental illnesses. Look, we don't have to litigate this one. No, no, no, but the thing that 80s did do that I think is really part of the sort of the movie's sort of long-standing misogyny project. I think the thing, the 80s phase of it, which is women who work who also can't do anything else because it makes them crazy, like going to work.

Look how sane Ann Archer is. Not all she does is make homes and raise a child, but that, like, she's rational and sane and loving. There's nothing crazy about Anne Archer. And the thing that springs her in the action, the thing that springs her in action is the threat to her home. Right. When he puts her on the phone and he's like, this is the line.

This is Beth Gallagher. If you come near my family again, I'll kill you. Do you understand? That was a really good Aunt Archer. Beautiful. Like, that is, that is the thing that that woman who has no, no professional career, that's her livelihood that Alex is fucking with. Next rewatchable scene, Alex's real estate stop by.

I like how this is shot. Incredible stuff. Yeah. It's really good with this. with the camera on Michael Douglas kind of walking in handheld, which was a little inventive for the 80s. Not a lot of people were doing that handheld moves in. Like a lot of this movie is handheld.

That got a huge gas from my daughter. The tension in that moment is palpable. Our daughter watches with us, but I fast forward over the sixth. Again, why watch that one is like, oh. Yeah. Oh, this went up a notch. Whoa.

Is it all going to unravel right there? How will they all react? Does Beth sense it? He goes back to her place. Right. So I would group those scenes together. Brinks in. The iconic I'm not going to be ignored, Dan.

Leading to the I'm not going to be ignored, Dan. An amazing moment. True. But why? Because whether or not you are sympathetic and empathetic toward Alex, regardless, that's a moment where you have to take her seriously. Right. And it's important that as a viewer, you do that.

If you want to rue for her, you're like, fuck yes. You will not be ignored. Take command of your life. make him accountable. And if you just view her as more of a cartoon villain or this cartoon depiction of a deranged woman, which again

is not how I personally perceive her, but I think is how plenty of people do, then you're like, oh shit, that's scary, that's a threat, that's something that he is going to have to reckon with. It's just such a perfectly effective line of dialogue. There's no way out at that point. That whole speech is kind of a,

it's kind of a feminist speech, right? Because I won't allow you to treat me like some slut. You can just bang a couple times and throw in the trash. Yeah. Chef's Kiss. That is. I mean, she is aware of the power dynamics. And I think that, I don't know.

This movie is so fascinating because it's not that it's confused. It just isn't fully developed, right? Like, all of the properties are there for, like, the thing that Gone Girl takes to, like, takes way over the line, right? And, and. Here we go. We're not talking about Gone Girl. Slander. Yeah, we don't like your Gone Girl takes.

Well, listen, I'm just throwing that out there. Yeah, you're banned from Gone Girl, where you watch this. I do like, as an entertainment, I think it's great. We don't want to hear your Gone Girl Thoughts. No, no. Anyway, I do think that this movie, like, like, one more pass could have rescued this movie from, not, it could have been the exact same movie, but with, like, a little more Alex goes to buy some milk time. or Alex, like, has a girlfriend time.

You know, like... Or doesn't, and then we better understand that whole in her life. Yeah, totally. Next we watchable scene, the bunny scene. Oh, my God. It's just... No. It's one of the most memorable...

That's literally the number one pick for Never Watch Again scene. It's one of the most memorable thriller scenes ever. It led to 30 plus years of jokes about boiling bunnies. People are still making the joke. Yeah. It's just, it's going to live on forever. Unlike poor Whitey. Anyone who acts crazy anyway.

Uh-oh, watch out for your bunny. It just became a trope. But let's talk about the genius of the construction of that sequence. It's great. There's a lot of the, there's a lot in this movie that is just like sort of like

tweaking your, it's like a joke on what it is. There's a literal pot that boils. There is a kettle that goes off. Yeah. There is, she takes the kid to a, the scene. The roller coaster.

We got to hold on. Anyway. Yeah, we're getting to that. But just that sequence where they come home and Ellen and the dog go one way, Beth and Dan go into the house. Well, also, like, going into your house that only you live in. Right. And there's a pot boiling in the kitchen is just a terrifying.

And Archers' face when she first sees the pot. It's like, what is this? Why? Yeah. The three people that live in this house were all just in the car. Yeah. Why is there a pot? And then the bunny and

Poor Ellen. Ellen's still in therapy. Do you know that they used a real bunny? Oh yeah. Really? They did. A dead one, thank God. But they went to a butcher and got an actual bunny

to boil. And it stunk. And that's part of why. What Anna's his face looks like? She can smell it. So my daughter, my daughter who likes every movie did not like this movie

because of the bunny. And was so upset by the bunny thing. And as it was unfolding and little Ellen's running to the cage and Zoe started going, Oh no. Oh no. No. Yeah, it's tough. It's very tough.

It was one of those for a minute and a half. And then was like, why did you make me watch this? And just was devastated. It's perfectly constructed, though, because there's a juxtaposition between Beth's finding the pot and Ellen's finding the empty cage. It's great. And the energy of that and like the ramping up of the suspense is just, I got three more rewatchable scenes. Dan tells Anne Archer.

I just really like Anne Archer in this movie and especially her performance in this where she's like, remember that lady? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And she's just, you just feel so bad. And she's still kind of with him until the she's pregnant. And then she's like, all right, what the fuck? And loses it.

But I just think she's really good in that scene. Any threat to the family. Yeah. That's the pregnancy. Ellen gets taken is really well done and really nerve-wracking. That's an upsetting. jarring. That's another juxtaposition sequence.

It comes a little less tough to defend Glenn Close with that one. I mean. The child kidnapping? Putting a six-year-old on a roller coaster. Yeah. It's all tough to defend. She broke into their home and murdered their pet.

Why? That is easier. But I mean, I actually would love to sort of think about what the point of that was. Of the kidnap or the bunny. Yeah. I just think she's out of her mind. There are two sides of the same coin. It's that it's all about what the family unit represents.

Right. Like her, Her ability to sort of get in there and mess with it. The one thing that he won't give her. It's a power. It's a power thing. Yeah. Poor Alan.

The new ending is really compelling and it's really good. Oh, it's great. What about the... What about before we get there, the car ride with the tape? Play me. Hello, Dan. Are you surprised? This is what you've reduced me to.

I guess he thought you'd get away with it. you can't. Because part of you is growing inside of me and that's a fact, Dan, and you'd better start learning how to deal with it. Oh, I don't... You don't like that? That's not rewatchable for me.

That makes me so uncomfortable. I love that. It's so... It's so suspenseful. That's one of the best. This is a thriller. Okay. I'll give you that one. I memorize a lot of this movie as good. It makes me unhappy. But that speech is just...

I mean... So what's most rewatchable? You're going to see your kitchen sink I want to say the sink sex I do think it actually is the ending which is pretty wild that the in arguably the most iconic

moment of the movie the ending the knife the tub the bullet is also the thing that people hold against the movie that's wild yeah no I mean I think if there's something about the ending

because all And also, you know, again, like the Hitchcockness of this movie is all on the surface. Yeah. Right? The devices, all of Hitchcock devices are right on the surface and all of the sort of psychological subtext of a Hitchcock movie is there. Except, you know, the psycho sequence that he's taking from for this bathroom murder is, it's great because, well, I mean, as movie making, it's great.

Because, you know, she pops out of the water. So you've got a horror movie trope in a sort of psychological thriller context. and it's like she's not dead, but she is, but she is now. It's also definitely a scene that whether or not you've seen the movie, you know exactly what happens in that scene, right? And the psycho thing that it's an homage to is another one. Like there are only so many moments from a movie where you know exactly who the people are,

exactly what happens and exactly how it plays out, even if you have no sense of the rest of the film. I don't even know what the most rewatchable scene is. I don't either, actually. I don't have one. This whole movie's rewatchable. It is. What's age the best?

Hydration during sex. Dan has to slightly flustered. Just everything Michael Douglas does with this guy, I just like. I think it's a good character. I get him. He won the Oscar that year for Wall Street, but I wonder. Yeah. What a year for him.

Anne Archer? I have her written down just as What's Age the Best? I have Anne Archer's 80's hair. Oh. The parms in this movie. But her hair works. The most of the mid-80s hair is really, really bad and kind of reckless. Even I was watching Beverly Hills cop the other day and Lisa Elbacher, who I love, Jenny Summers.

Even her hair, it's like you just wish somebody had talked to somebody about, yeah. It's too much. But Ann Archer, it actually, I thought it looks great. There's a softness to it. And there's a scene where during the real estate drop by, where Alex is leaving the house and you're a Are both hair is in the same scene. And you're just like, I don't know who the stylist was for this movie, but keeping Alex all in white, everything Alex does and wears is white.

Except the initial black dress. Except the inciting black dress. So they said, didn't they say in the casting, she just showed up and her hair is normally like that. It wasn't intentional. Going close. She has that crazy. My daughter has hair like that too, where if she isn't straightened it out, it just

goes nuts. That was what was intentional about it. She has talked about this, letting it go wild because she felt that it would fit the character and be an expression of that sexuality and that rage. It's great. It's great. Their house in Bedford is spectacular. The real estate in general. That is like in, if you're going to live in the country and like, you know, that part of Connecticut or that part of New York, like that's like the house you have in your head, the big front yard and just wait, pick and fence, all that stuff.

I love the early 80s Volvo. I love that car. Nice safe car. Good one if you're like 17, your first car. My first car was my dad's hand-by-down Volvo. You could crash that thing and just bounces off a wall. It's fine. 260,000 miles on that I think.

Those cars were great. When Beth gets into that car accident, is she driving a Volvo? She's in a Honda Accord. Okay. Yeah. Another great car. The Boiling Bunny joke has aged the best because we've been 30 years out of that. The meat district, which was really like that.

The meat packing district. The meatpacking district. Yeah. That's where Alex lives. It really was. There was just meat and it was a weird place to live and it became, in the late 80s

became like this real estate slash bar inefficiency place that people started to go to. And I remember going there with fake ID when I'm 18 and we're like, what is this place? And also the movies figured out

that like you, you as a viewer would feel this way. Yeah. So many movies wound up there. You know, with the sweaty streets and... I have the dads, you're such a fucking asshole face to Dan in the hospital.

It's just the best. And then just seeing Playland in a movie made me happy. I had a lot of good times of Playland. I think the most rewatchable scene, if I had to pick one, though, it'd be her in the elevator, I think, is great. Because it mirrors the sequence where she's in the parking lot and walks away, which is something just out of the Matrix. Yeah.

And then, but I think that the initial conversation they have about what, like, where she basically lays it all out for him. That is a great scene. And he has to react to it. And she has to be very, for lack of a better term, sane. What else do you have for what stage is the best? Anything else? Just in general, the casting.

I think especially given the fact that there were so many. Tell me who else was up with the fire. There are so many. Like really an astonishing number of people in contention for these roles. The fact that they landed on Michael Douglas and Glenn Close and Ann Archer is just the chemistry there is perfect. It's hard to imagine the movie. with anyone else. So I'll just do casting

what ifs now. They did not want to cast Glenn Close. The producer Sherry Lansing and Stanley Jaffe Oh, Sherry. Both had serious doubts

that she could be sexual enough. Right. So she let the hair go wild. Clicked with Michael Douglas. Which I don't think it was that hard to click with Michael Douglas.

He seems like a walking erection for about 15 years there. So Sharon Stone. What? Audition for the role of Alex. but got passed over. Thank God.

Because if they're in this movie together, we don't get faced against it. It's a good what if. I did not know that. It's a different kind of movie. I actually think the character needs to be older. Sharon Stone was in her 20s still at that point, I think. Yeah.

It has to be. It doesn't work with, it has to work with a person who's Michael. Like, think about this. This is a thing doesn't happen now. Like, the version of this movie now is like Harrison Ford and Emma Stone. Right. Like, these two people are the same age.

Yeah. And that real are very close in age, it really, really matters that they're peers. Who else? Who knows if this is true? But apparently Sally Field, Kirstie Alley, and Emma Thompson were all considered. Whoa. Emma Thompson's a good one. Elizabeth's a shoe?

I didn't believe that one. I looked that up. She was like 22 when that came up. Sally Field. This is why it's half-ass internet research. Sally Field could have done it, but she couldn't have done it with Michael Douglas. I don't think she could have flipped the switch and been. crazy like.

Carrie Fisher? She was Sybil! I mean, Carrie Fisher would have been injured. We're doing a number on mental illness right now, but she was, she, Sally Field could definitely have found one of those civil personalities to do Alex Forrest. Do you know my Sally Field take?

No. What is it? Sally Field and Smoking the Bandit. Oh, this is mine. Top five. Hotest ever in a movie. Oh my God, ever. Ever. Ever. Ever. But she walked in right now, I'd be like, I'd see you guys. I'll see you guys later. But it was a Bert Reynolds thing because she, nobody ever brought

out of her ever again. Oh my God. She was great. This one's going to floor you. Turn down the Dan Gallagher roll. Christopher Reeve. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I don't see it. I don't see it either. No. Never really felt like a huge sexual thing with Christopher Reeve.

Here is the thing. Like, it's not a moral movie. It's not a movie about the struggle about whether to have the affair. Christopher Reeve would have needed a scene where he's like really thinking about whether to have the affair. It's not like that. It's all spontaneity and it's all like... Physicality. Like split second rationalization. And Michael Douglas can do that with just one reaction shot.

You don't need a scene. He can do it at the table. Considered for the role of Beth Gallagher, but did not get it, Andy McDowell. Yep. Did you see the rumor that... By the way, she ended up being Ann Archer's market correction. Yeah. Your favorite thing.

She took all every... Every Ann Archer part. She should have been in sex lies of videotape instead of Andy McDowell. Oh, yeah. That was it. Yeah. I don't know what happened. Ground Dog Day could add Ann Archer.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Shortcuts. Oh, my God. That might be the Ann Archerist, not Ann Archer part of all time. Yeah. Huh. Market correction.

Another great. That's a great. What about Brian De Palma signing on and then not wanting to do it unless they got rid of Michael Douglas? Yeah. So they chose Douglas. Brian DePama. And John Carpenter was the next choice. That's amazing.

But thought it was too close to play Misty for me. And didn't like the ending, which they ended up reshooting anyway. Oh, well, can I just say, like, while we're talking about didn't like the ending, the thing about Adrian Line doing this and DePaulma not doing it is think about the reason these movies, all of the movies that came after this movie don't work. The reason they don't work is because think about the number of violations that it has to have, that it like has Alex Forrest do. And another, and all the other

from hell movies, there's like two things that are wrong that like she does that like mess with the audience. I still think the Volvo's worse than the bunny. Oh, come on. You get a bunny anywhere. But let's just start. It's a living creature. It's a part of their family. Come on. She slits the risk.

She kicks him out after basically saying that she's disappointed that they can't hang out anymore and he has to go back home to his family. She drops in and makes the real estate visit. The Volvo and acid. She leaves him the play me tape. Also, just throughout all of this, constantly showing up at his office, calling him, trying to get his number after he changed him. Kidna- follows him home to the house. Kidnaps the kid, boils the rabbit, and then shows up at the

end. You have like nine to 12 incidents by which you can root against this woman if you are so inclined. Of course. And no other movie in the history of of the blank from hell movie has given you that much grist for just either exasperation, suspense, or just... First of all, I really don't appreciate your slander of the From Hell genre, since he gave a Sleep in the Enemy, single white female and that rocks the cradle, three of the greats. But think about the... Sleep in the enemy, the first 25 minutes, I will stand by for the rest of my life. Laura!

Laura! Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is an amazing movie. Oh, Patrick Brum. But I do think that I just feel like the reason this one works in the way that it does is

as you pointed out and I hadn't really thought about they stack the deck and there really are only three locations for this movie pretty much. Hold on. We got to do what's age the worst but one more brick. Hey, have you heard about the new Netflix original series? The Dark Crystal Age of Resistance

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You'll be happy for this one, Mallory. Dan Gallagher, Hall of Fame, terrible pet owner. Here are some of his sins. Left the dog alone for 18 hours. I mean, it's unforgiving. I don't have a dog. Is that bad? He has jail him. He's at work.

He's at work. Late meeting on a Saturday, right? Leaving in the rain, goes to get a drink with Glenn Close, leads to him sleeping over and being there. I'm going to say 18 hours, that dog was alone, minimum. He lives so far away from where her house is. Even if he left his house just for the Saturday, because it was a Friday meeting or a Saturday meeting.

Saturday meeting. It was a weekend. It was a Saturday. So let's say he leaves this house at three. He's still not home before like, I don't know, 10 o'clock. That dog's alone for 18 hours. Awful. Took his dog on an overnight date with a mistress.

Terrible. Is that really bad? Yeah. Dogs know. Dogs have parents. There's that great woman when Quincy is looking out the window at the birds and he's like, you can just tell. He's trying to communicate with the outside world.

He knows. That's a great observation. My dog Willie, the best dog we've ever had, Willie. He sniffs new people in the house. Like, he's just curious. We were joking, like, if I had done this on a date, wrong, Willie. Willie would have done, like, a lot of sniffing of Glenn Close.

It would have ruined the mood. Dan Gallagher fed the dog spaghetti and meatballs for dinner. Listen. That is like, hey, can you have diarrhea for four days in our house? This was an outrage. Because he... Adam and I... Pause the movie and talk about this.

Spaghetti and meatballs. Who does that? I spend so much more time thinking about what my cat eats than what I eat. Can I tell you? His diet is so important. You know what struck me about that moment? But it was a cover-up. Right, right. Beth left Dan the spaghetti in the fridge, so he had to get rid of the evidence.

And he didn't eat it that he wasn't there. But not only that, but think about, like, I don't know what Anne's deal is, but I'm going to guess she just opened a jar. But no offense to her, because it's 1987. It was just about convenience stuff. A little ragu. I feel like she's probably a great cook. I don't know.

She's perfect. She is perfect. She maybe did make the tomatoes off from scratch. I think she made it from scratch. But like what an F you to whatever labor she put in to making that meal. He just dumps it in that bowl. Or does he put the ball on the floor? And then the last thing.

He puts it on the floor so that the dog needed. That is not healthy for a dog. No, that's diarrhea for four days. Then the last end was putting the bunny right next to the car. That's burning acid smoke. Hey, here. I have some acid. It's so upsetting.

I mean, the only thing that brings me peace when I think about the cruel end of dear sweet Whitey's life is that maybe... Maybe. Going out quickly like Whitey did. And we should know it. I don't want to get too graphic, but you can see when the lid opens that there's blood. So we can presume that Whitey was killed before wasn't boiled slowly alive. What kind of diseases is Whitey getting from being exposed to that acid fog? if Whitey had lived.

Terrible. More wood stage the worst. She, Glenn Close just lightened up the cigarette in the office meeting. Oh yeah. That was weird. That was like, well, she...

At some point she stopped smoking, though. Did you notice that? Right around the time of the Oreos, the wine, the Doritos, and the hog and das, she's not a smoker anymore. Do you think it's because she's pregnant? Yes! I do!

Oh, she knew right away? Yeah. I think it's because she's pregnant. Interesting. I didn't notice that she stopped. I had another one stage of where Glenn Close is smoking. I just couldn't. I mean, Tom Cruise is the worst movie smoker of all time, but Glenn Close.

She had other things to focus on, turning on the sink. This one aged the worst, just because she says at one point, I'm 36 years old. This might be my last chance to have a child. Well, now in 2019, you can be 48 years old and have a child. I got to tell you, I heard that. And I really, I could feel, like, physically inside my biological clock ticking as I heard that. I could feel it. That was a bad moment that I did not enjoy.

Like you like in like the way we thought it. The way we thought about pregnancy in 1987. 38. She had 10 seconds. She had 10 seconds to have this child. Elementary school pickup security in the 1980s. Oh my God. What was that?

Hey, I'm here to pick up Ellen. Oh, she's gone. No. Some crazy lady with a perm picked her up. Alicia. Where's Ellen? She's gone. So everybody in the school knows that Ellen is gone.

Everybody. All their parents, teachers, administrators, students, everybody knows that Ellen's gone. This is a real indictment of whiteness, by the way. This is a straight up indictment of whiteness. Like, just some white lady came together. It's fine. It's all right. Unbelievable.

That was brutal. The old school phones and slinging phones down and hanging up and having an operator just feels like it was in the 18th century. Landlines. I would just say the absence of technology, of modern technology in general, has really aged the worst. You put a doorbell cam up. You put a webcam up once and you've got her. When Dan goes to the police officer and he's like, well, you know, I'm not asking for me. I'm asking for a friend, my client. And the officer says to him, well, you've got to basically

catch her. Today you do that in four seconds. You have the bunny on camera. Or somebody is sliding into your DMs instead of calling your landline where your wife is answering. If you had cell phone and email, her craziness would have been, you know, pretty pretty easy to track. Right. Like, she's just got a Facebook account where it's all there. And then

the last thing I had for What's Age the Worse. This movie did completely rip off Play Misty for me. Which is a really good movie. It's probably one of the first rewatchable movies because it's like 1971. I watched it two years ago. I was like, this is good.

I mean, it's super dated in a lot of ways, but it's Clint Eastwood just, Clint Eastwood's a DJ. He has some caller who likes him, who starts falling him. He hooks up with her. And then she just starts ruining his life. And it's actually, it's good because it's Clint Eastwood. Right. It's one of the only times he's kind of disarmed by a, usually he could just be like,

I'll pull my gun out, I'll shoot you. Right, right, right, right. But so that's why I like it because it's this weird side of Clint Eastwood. Plus he directed it. It's got great Monterey shots and Bay Area. It's good. But it's 50 years old though. It's old and it felt old

like probably almost immediately. And it doesn't have any of this It doesn't have any of the like Sort of modern pleasure of like that Fatal Attraction is a movie about what it's like To be these people in 1987. Yeah. It is very much of a piece with 1980s movie culture

In terms of how single women are represented and how married men are represented in a city. I'm curious, have either of you seen the original short film? No. Diversion. There's more. Well, this is an adaptation of the screenwriter's original version, which I believe was a... Oh, it's because the credit is based on an original screenplay by James Deirdon.

Yes, so it was a British, like, made for TV movie? I think I might not have that right, but it was like a 50-minute version of this story. So I'm curious how, and it was years before earlier in the decade, how much of the plot is the same and how much was amended for this movie. What else do you have for what stage of the worst? Anything? Only stuff that we've talked about already. Just Dan's behavior and him not getting more, being held more

accountable and being more culpable and then just the representation of what actually is going on in Alex's life. We have a double winner for the best that guy, aka Joey Pantzel word, and the Saul Rubenek, they knew, overacting word. Both goes to Stuart Pankin.

Oh, Stuart Pankin. Michael Douglas's heavy friend. Yeah. Who's just dialed up for 90 minutes. The dinner sequence. The bowling, everything's just big and loud. Stewart Banking. It's so funny. And they're at dinner and it's just like a laugh riot.

I love the way he brings the overacting ethos into the whisper scene in the law library. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. The Dean Waders Award winner is going to surprise you. Okay. Quincy, the White Lab. I thought it was an amazing performance by him.

That's a great one. You're going to pass over Ellen. I think it's Ellen. You're going to pass over. Ellen's in a lot of the movie, though. So is Quincy. So is Quincy, actually. He might have more screen time than Ellen.

Okay. I'll consider Ellen. I think, Bob, maybe they can share it. They're asking a lot of Ellen. Quincy's given everything I want from a white lab. They're just, I've never had one. They're just these kind of dumb, loyal dogs that just like. Quincy's wonderful.

Hey, oh, we're going to the park. I don't care who. I'm with. Hey, spaghetti and meatballs. Cool. They don't judge. No. He was judging. He knew. You think he knew? Oh, yeah. Did you ever stop to study the decorations in Ellen's room? Oh, no. I've never done that. What's disturbing? It's just a lot of like a lot. There's this very exaggerated. In the new house, there is this, there's this like. Illustrated, like, it can't tell if it's a doll or like a self-portrait of her, but it's hovering over her and bed. It's like a long, rectangular. It's very upsetting. Yeah. I noticed that, but didn't.

put a lot of thought into it. Concerning. Half-ass internet research. We've done almost everything. A rich text. We've hit a lot of it. Glenn Close said in 2008, men still come up to me and say, you scared the shit out of me. Sometimes I say, you saved my marriage.

That's interesting at cocktail parties. This film was released in 1987, which coincidentally, according to Chinese zodiac, is the year of the rabbit. That's right. Oh, shit. Initial title was Diversion. Oh, that's bad. For the scene when Dan pushes Alex into the bathtub, Close had to be dunked underwater more than 50 times.

And. No. Resulting in ear infections. No. And eye infections. No. Yes. 50 times?

What is he? David Fincher? She was injured doing this. I would have gone with maybe four times. God, there's just, because you only get that one shot. We're like, terrible. Oh my God. It gets worse.

When he's dunking her. It does get worse. During the reshoot, she suffered a concussion when her head smashed gets a bear. And what happened? She was rushed to the hospital, discovered she was actually pregnant with her daughter. Yes. Oh, Annie was conceived during fatal attraction.

This is upsetting. This is not great. That's crazy. Still the winner of who was mistreated the most in this movie was the dead bunny. Awful. No, not that, worse than Glenn Close. She got an ear infection.

She didn't be taken to the hospital. That's very upsetting. At least the rabbit is dead. And then Michael Douglas was filming Wall Street at the same time, which I was, I'm always stunned when actors can do two movies. This is wild. So did you read that he, like, alternated days of the week for which set he was on? Is that true?

What an actor. Can that be true? Is that possible? That brings us to Apex Mountain. This was Michael Douglas' Apex Mountain. This movie comes out same year as Wall Street, and he wins the Oscar for Wall Street, and he's never been better and had more power or anything.

No. This is the peak of an awesome career. Glenn Close, I'll let you answer that one, Wesley, is the number one Gliss Close fan. Apex Mountain for her here? Apex Mountain. I mean, in terms of like her commercial, it's the biggest movie she's ever.

been in. It's not the best performance she's given. There's any number of candidates for that. I would say the next year, the year she lost the Oscar to Jody Foster for the accused, that I think film performance-wise is her great movie performance

and dangerous liaisons. But I mean, she... You know my feeling about that one. No, I don't. It's an Oscar travesty. You mean that it didn't win anything? That it lost a rain man? Her not winning for dangerous liaisons? Oh, yes. Is outrageous.

Her not winning. She, with all due respect to Jody Foster and the accused. She was, Jody Foster really good in the accused. But, but Glenn Close. That was one of those.

You left the movie theater and you were like, Close to Malcovic. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Glenn Close. I remember where I saw that movie.

We left where we were like, what just happened? That was amazing. Also, the best last, like in terms of a performance closing a movie, that is one of the greatest performances to end a movie I can think of.

Apex Mountain. Anne Archer, not just for her career, but for my love, other than my daughter and my wife, maybe my third favorite female ever. Maybe Mallor, maybe your third. Thank you. Top five, just what a performance. What is incredible.

You know why she was so easy to market. She lost to Olympia Dukakis, by the way, which, I mean, to be fair, oh, come on. That's your winner. I love you, Anne Archer. But Olympia Dukakis and Moonstruck is... This is Beth Gallagher. Oh, my God.

Yes. If you have a come, they're a moment. FM there again. I'll kill you. Do you understand? Do you understand? It's like this weird English accent. I love the way that she like puts on her like evening moisturiser in the mirror. That's actually the kind of the sexiest moment of the movie. Great underwear.

Isaac's nodding. Yes. Great underwear. But the other thing about like, think if they had switched parts. Think of they had switched parts. If Glenn close. The movie doesn't work. Because you're like run away with her.

She is so. Captivating. No, no, no, I'm with... Apex Mountain, Bedford, New York, I say yes. I don't know. Psychotic female villains? Hmm. It's the movies.

There's so many to choose from. It's definitely, it has its coaching tree now. You know, a lot of other movies are in this mold and in this template. And I, you know, to your point earlier, maybe not, maybe that's not a good thing. But it definitely continued to inspire a generation of a... Well, I think it's only not good because... the movies that deal with this as a character, as a personality trait,

don't have the sophistication to really do it. And the actors aren't good enough. Don't put smart chain that rocks a cradle or single way to know. With all due respect to the, well, Jennifer Jason Lee, I would say, understood. That movie was good. She was on a different planet. Also in the running for Alex.

Right. According to one of the many rumors, according to one of the many rumors. The more names that keep coming, there clearly was only one choice. I mean, there are 60 names. It's, like, if you were like, you know, Bet Midler was up for, I don't know, like. She might have been. Right, but Glenn Close is the only person.

She had no competition as far as I can see. We got to move. Pickin Nits. What about, what about Apex Mountain for the director? What do you think? He had so many hits, though. I mean, yeah, it's the best movie he ever. It's the best movie as a movie.

He was nominated for Best Director. Had ever made, yes. And this was. This was also just a, it was on the heels of nine and a half weeks. So it's like the closest concentration of his best films. What about really cool elevators where you have to like pull them down? Is it this or is it unfaithful? It's this.

It's this because she had complete command over that elevator. I just, I can't get enough of that shot. Like just meme that when you've got something, when you've got this, just have Glenn Close closure elevator gate. Thinking about this movie and the meme generation is like pretty exciting. Yeah. There would be some incredible. Great ones, yep. Picking Nits. Oh, boy, there are a lot.

Let's go. At what point should Dan have realized that Alex might be a lunatic? Here are the five nominees. During their first drink. At the dog park when she lied about when she was like, oh, my dad died that way, I'm just kidding. The hissy fit when she tried to leave. The unfortunate suicide attempt or the M. Butterfly invite at the office. At what point on that checklist is he like, oh, God.

Because I'm going with the dog park. Well, he claims Madam Butterflies. That would have been like I'm out. That's weird. Remember the story that he tells about Madam Butterfly? The Madam Butterfly story, like, the thing that sort of bonds them to each other in some ways is that this opera means something to both of them. That's the, like, he mentions a parent in this movie. And his father took him to see Madam Butterfly.

Again, this is set up for the ending that we don't get because in the most of the most of, moment where we see her cutting her throat, the opera is playing against that moment. So I think it's, again, it's a hard part of the movie to talk about, but it's the, it's the wrist. Yeah, okay. It has to be. Well, that leads me to the next one. Because that's the dress at the party. I'm sorry. It's the dress at the party. Because it's too much. Now, I know it's the 80s and we've got, like, remember how we were really into Japanese culture in 1980, in 1980s, like sushi was fascinating, sumo was fascinating,

we loved, like Sony was fascinating. The Japanese culture, we were so into it. Like the Japaneseness of Blade Runner. Yeah. I think there was something about Glenn Close at that Japanese exercise book release party.

It just was too much. I think there's like an excess to that character that might be attractive, but it's definitely like, I'm at least thinking about like my exit plan. Make a red, Make a red flag note here.

I just have some questions about the risks and, like, you don't have to go to the hospital for that? I just, that part was confused. I think you would go to the hospital. You probably go to the emergency room, I'm guessing. You would, but I think that they, I mean, does the degree that we know they talked about it? I think she, like, he couldn't go, right? Like, I think there was just like a risk involved or something. He says to her, you'll go to the doctor.

Right. That's on the, yeah, that's the next day. Glenn Close is smoking we covered. This always gets me with thrillers. People who keep a clipping book of their worst moments. Yeah, that's a movie device. Hey, my dad died. Let's put that in there.

And here's a shot of me when I was in jail. Right. It's like who keeps a scrapbook of anything that's not positive? Well, serial killers and psychotics, right? I mean, in the movies, they're the only people's keeping scrapbooks. By the way, anyone who keeps a scrapbook like that, I would at least do a double take. He's well past the double-takes by that. He's in her apartment trying to find proof that, yeah.

What happened to Alex's job? She's a book editor and it just kind of stops working basically and hangs out. That's a great unanswerable question. It seemed like she had a pretty good job. I assume a lot of this was happening on the weekend. Because my guess. The whites in her eyes and the bath. Terrible.

Oh, yeah. Really bad. Terrible. What else did you have? Terrible. I can't get over this. Even though I understand it. Beth wants to stay in her home.

Her life has been disrupted. She wants to end the disruption there. Why? However, doesn't she say, no, no, no, you stay. I'm going to leave the murdered bunny house. I'm going to go. You have to stay in the house that was broken into by a person who is trying to harm us. I'm going to go to the next hotel.

No, I think, no, no. I mean, no, no, because, and I think. This is one of the really great, I mean, to the degree that there's any subtext in this movie, we've talked about this a little bit, but it really is about like the woman being not, the breadwinner is secondary. The prime role in a family in this world is the homemaker. And I think that, like, it's her. It's not letting him take her away from it.

But just, again, this is picking this. This is the category. practically speaking, if you know that someone is trying to come for you, you don't stay in the place that that person just infiltrated. But that's the same sequence as the phone call where she's like, bitch, come for me. And I got something for you. And she thinks that's actually going to work? She believes it. It's a heat check for-Ballagher is a warrior.

Come on. I pick that knit. Some others. Obviously, it's part of, it's a deliberate plot twist to set up the original ending where his fingerprints are on the knife. I get why he has to touch the knife in the scene in the kitchen. It is noticeable. Putting it down on the counter is ludicrous. She just tried to stab you with it.

And then like, let's see a little hustle when you're leaving the apartment after that. You're going to put the knife down. That doesn't make sense. Fine. Let's see a little hustle to get out of the door. I think he's in shock. I really do. I think that like the look on his face, the shot before that is him looking down there.

I just don't think he's super aware, which brings us to our next knit that I'd like to pick. What's the commute? From New York City to Bedford. It's whatever the answer is in minutes. She is driving behind him. It's 50 minutes. Minimum, right? And we're going to Westchester County.

You get off the exit and you're doing back roads for another 20. She is behind him on that road. The whole time. The entire time. And he doesn't notice. He's so into, like he's listening to the tape. Yes. The tape has his attention.

Look in your rear of you mirror. My guy. Come on. I have one. couple more. I do have a couple more. Maybe yours. Maybe yours will be my, I only have one. Beautiful new mom. It's an old home, sure, but a beautiful home. Are these floors made a Swiss cheese? How is the leak? The water that's so fast. It's too fast. It's too fast. It's too fast. It's too fast. I can't believe I forgot to mention that because it's too fast. I don't even own a house.

I think it would take like nine hours. Yeah, no. Way too fast. That whole scene, it's this, this delicate dancer. The choreography all hinges on the precise timing of the water. He doesn't even need it. He doesn't even, that scene does not need the water. Great job by Quincy the White Lab, not protecting his mother, but just licking the bathtub water off the floor. Because White Labs are morons. No, our poor guy is like eating leftover spaghetti. He needs a fresh drink.

Speaking of that scene, how does Ellen not wake up? Like, I'm glad the child is not in the scene ultimately, but she has just been put to bed, mere feet away. So as somebody who has had two six. six-year-olds in my day. Once they're asleep, it's over. Oh, my God. No, it's true.

You can literally drive a truck through the front door and they're not waking up. Screaming. No, they're not waking up. The crashing of glass, a knife on the floor, the sound of, you know how loud it is to drown someone? And then a gunshot? I think seven and under, they're not waking up. She's probably cowering in her bed.

That's why we used to have our eyes wet shut parties after our kids were asleep from like 11 on. It's fine. They're asleep. There's some very weird stuff with time in this movie, not the passage of time, but like specifically it says the clock, I believe in the kitchen says 325 in the afternoon when Alex is making her spaghetti dinner, things like that. Do Beth and Dan well off, right? They have a beautiful apartment. They're moving into this mansion in Bedford. Beth is coming from some real estate. They don't have a real estate broker.

Beth is just greeting prospective buyers alone in her home. Where's the broker? That's a good one. Come on. That's a really good one. No, no, no, no. But, but, but, but she, Alex knows that they're going to move, right? She knows, she knows something is that.

Sure. And the place is for sale, but, and I guess this is a product of the era where you'd be more likely to just welcome someone into your home. Still, where's the broker? I don't want to necessarily cite the specific line, but when Dan is listening to the tape in the car and then listening to it again in his man cave attic, the words are different. The specific line is not there the second time. I just assumed she was repeating herself.

And that's what I assumed. I noticed that, but I just assume. That's strange. I always find it very strange when they go back to her apartment after the dinner, after the dancing, rather, that he's like, do you live here? They've already been there. Is that just an editing mistake? Or is that, like, him trying to be cute and sexy? Oh, yeah.

I think he was being cute and sexy. Didn't work. I didn't make any mistake. Would you have? Well, it's kind of a major thing. But in the reshoot, I don't like the knife. I don't like the knifing of the dress to draw the blood. I don't, I don't believe.

It's to show how crazy she is. She's mutilating herself. I just don't, I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Glenn Close kept that knife. Yeah. She did? Yeah, she's got it in her own stuff.

Whoa. I love, I love you Glenn Close. Because, you know, some people run away from this part, right? Some people are just like, we're almost at the two hour mark, so I got to speed through. Okay. Can the podcast be longer than the movie? We're going to skip over best quote except for, I feel you, I taste you. I think you.

I touch you. Can you understand? understand, can you? I would just have gotten in a car accident. That's it. It's so disturbing. I taste you. Oh, my God.

Can I just say, though, to an 11-year-old boy, like, that kind of, like, psychosis and obsession is so appealing. Like, I think, I think seeing at 11 kind of really changed my life, like, in terms of how I related to a year-old episode Netflix show? No. I vote yes. Absolutely. I think the 2019 version of this movie with modern technology and all the different ways we think about this stuff could be a really interesting movie.

Also, it will give us more time to build up the relationship and the characters in the first place. And then you just understand all of their actions more. I think it would have to be a short, maybe like six episodes. I don't know about 10. 10 couldn't happen. You could argue the affair was basically. Oh, God. Don't you dare.

Wow, we both like that. Can't wait for season. You guys are nuts. You know, they had Fox Green Lid. a television version of this in 2015, and then it never happened. Also, there's a play in London, 2014. Probably unanswerable questions. At what point, I was just putting myself in the Dangalga Roll.

At what point would my wife never have been able to forgive me? I think it was the spaghetti and meatballs for the job. The adultery aside, just that, that just mistreating a dinner like that would have been unforgettable. I think about my sister in that point. part. Like, what, that would have been the thing she focused on for a little bit. Fatal Attraction 2. Mm-hmm.

Growing up Ellen, maybe disturbed and demented from ever her traumatic childhood. Ellen's going to be carrying that for a while. And then we, and now it's Ellen Gallagher. Yeah. Yeah. This is good. I know. Oh, my goodness.

Did this movie launch the Skinimax era? Because this was the plot of a, well, 150 Skinner. There's a real answer to this, which is that, you know, these movies, the erotic thriller, came out of this movie. Well, no, but it was an industrial problem where, please come see the movies, don't go watch porn. Let's put pornishness with a plot. Let's marry that.

Joe Esther House is the king of, you know, this genre, what we call now the erotic thriller. We call then the erotic thriller. And I think the Skinnamaxness, like, you just, you just. just got lower quality versions of this thing. Right. Yes. All your porn. Secretaries.

All your porn. Shannon Tweed comes out of this. I mean, that led to the Gone with the Win of Skinner Max movies, Scorned. Oh, yes. Which is an amazing movie. She has sex with everyone in the family.

She just runs through. I think the dog might have gotten through on Skate, but everyone else. Who plays these parts if they remade this movie in 2019? I thought it was an interesting, unanswerable question. Would you want? What would you want? I would just want Michael Douglas and Glenn Close to do it again.

So you would never do that. Okay. Oh, man. That's a good question. I feel like it would go badly with like Jennifer Aniston as Glenn Close. You just couldn't do it. Because again, the thing that you have to be thinking about when you cast this, and this is why Glenn Close, this is why the fights over Glenn Close were probably so intense.

Like you, you, in the 80s, everybody was sexy. And Glenn Close had never been really given a chance. to be sexy or like to do this kind of overt sexiness. They started remaking these movies with all black cast about five years ago. That's true. And they did it with, there was a Beyonce movie where she's basically an archer. Obsessed. Yeah.

And I forget who was. Allie Larder. And it was kind of the same premise of it. But they just remake that movie. Yeah, no. Yeah. But who would even. What's funny, because we used to talk about this.

when we did podcast at Grantlin about instead of remaking movies, just change, make it all black cast. Or change the gender. Flip the gender, whatever. And they've actually really been doing this.

I just watch one. I watch all of them. I watch the intruder with Dennis Quaid where he wouldn't leave his house. Yeah. Not bad. They left a lot on the table. They left a lot.

I just, I always enjoy those movies. It's like, something's wrong. That really could have been the whole, like the racial homeowner, like melodrama, like splanked.

from hell for her. Well, that's what they don't. They don't consult with us. Any other unanswerable questions for you, Mel? Did Dan become a partner at the law firm after all this? Because they have that celebration dinner. They're prematurely celebrating what they think this lunch with the boss represents. I want to know. I don't think they find out. I don't think Fred Gwyn finds out that any of this happened. Did Dan and Best stay married? Yes. Yes. I think it's too important. I think it's too important to her to not get divorced. I wish that Beth had gone and, you know, followed her bliss, found herself a man worthy, of her, but I don't think that's what's happened.

I'm just as interested in looking the other way, though, had Dan cheated before? You know, we don't really know if this was like a, oh, boy, I've really never done anything like this and never would kind of transgression from him, or if this is something that he just doesn't really think about. I think that he's thought, I mean, the thing that the looks on his face after all of the sex are the, like, this is like a dream coming. I think this was the 80s. You just did stuff and didn't think about the consequences.

I like that your rationale for a lot of. This is, 30 years ago. Nobody was doing cocaine like it was Pez back then. I love Pez. Another one, I want to know who Alex was supposed to go on the date with

because when she's having that first when they had the restaurant. Do you think so? Yeah. I think she made it up too. I don't know. Maybe. It's definitely possible.

It's probably even probable. I think she was... But if not. She's so casual about it though. I had a date. I stood him up. No. Well, but we know that she...

That was the phone call I made for, I don't believe it. I don't know, though. I think that she has... Again, this is one of the question. I wish we knew more. Does she have a romantic life? You know, she tells Dan that she didn't think that she could get pregnant, which would indicate that she's had moments where she tried,

or at least could have. I don't know. I want to know more about that. That's an unanswerable question. How did Alex know exactly where Dan was going to go to rent that car? Oh, good one. I thought about that. I really did think about that. Great follower. There's something to movies where I'm just like, whatever. Hey, last one. Who won the movie? Quincy. Quincy the dog.

It's Glenn Close. Glenn Close. This is an easy one. Wow, we did this under two hours. Barely. Fairly. Traxion. None of us will be ignored.

Barely. None of us. Lizzie Morris, Malo Rubin. Thank you. Thanks to Voodoo. Don't forget. Voodoo, a leading streaming app of the library of over 150,000 titles available to rent or buy over 10,000 titles you can watch for free on their ad,

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