The Rewatchables - ‘First Blood’ With Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: January 19, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman join John Rambo in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest to wage war against their pursuers as they gear up for ‘First Blood,’ starring Sylvester Stallone, Richard Crenna, and Brian Dennehy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Happy New Year. Before we get to today's episode of The Rwatchables, I want to remind you that if you're listening on a platform other than Spotify, you can only hear the last 60 days of new rewatchables episodes plus a couple classics as well. But if you want the entire archive, which dates back to 2017 and has over 175 episodes at this point, go to Spotify. All of them are there. You can listen to every episode for free. You can even hear us at 1.2 speed, which is my preferred speed for myself. So there you go. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller, and the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car in Carvana last night

Well, that's cool No, you don't understand It went perfectly, real offer, down to the penny They're picking it up tomorrow Nothing went wrong So, what's the problem? That is the problem Nothing in my life goes to smoothie

I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's lamated. Okay, yeah, that's good, that's close enough.

Carvana. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Coming up. Nothing is over. Nothing! First blood is next.

He was harassed for no apparent reason. He was arrested for no particular crime. It's time to dislike you. Lot. They thought they'd found an easy mark. They were wrong. Sylvester Stallone. This time he's fighting for his life.

Rated R. Starts Friday, October 22nd at theaters everywhere. All right. Kaepleman is here. We are heading toward the 40-year anniversary of this movie, although it's next year or not this year. First Blood, the original Rambo movie, came out in October 1982.

I'm going to start here, Brian Kauffelman. The modern action movie is created in the last third of 1982. Because we have First Blood, which is the movie that puts it all together. And then two hours later, 48 hours. And you take those two movies, and they become the springboard for every sort of action movie innovation.

over the next 10 years. And we're going to be doing action movies for the next couple rewatchables. For me, it starts with first blood. Perfect length. It's maybe an hour, 35, something like that. Unassailable premise. There's about a half hour stretch

in the first hour that is just riveting no matter how many times you've seen it. And then the Stallone piece as well as the 80s popcorn action hero. It all starts here. Am I right? Yes. I would agree with you.

It's the modern. action movie, but I would also say it's the, here's what I would say, it's the transition film. Because this movie's really connected, I think, to like the Roy Scheider action pictures of the 70s, in that this is a action film that's about something. Yeah. This movie's fucking about something that really matters. It's about a couple of things that really matter. And it's small.

It's tight. I think this is the, I would say that 48 hours is the first. And then the Rambo movies take the kernel of this, because what you're really talking about is this. This is the birth of the greatest action star. Because Rocky was about a guy being a screenwriter, a storyteller, a movie star. But this movie is where Stallone announces himself

as the guy who can be along with Schwarzenegger, the biggest action star of the next however many years. I mean, for a long time there, if you just put Sly on a mountain, you have a movie that's going to work. But as a movie, I think this movie is directly tied to the movies of the 70s,

and I think that... A friend of mine just wrote me, and he goes, Gary Goldman, who's a great comedian and great guy, and he wrote me to say, like, does it hold up? Is it like Rocky and Jaws or is it more nostalgic with Top Gun?

And I said, I think it's the single greatest small action film of all time. It's nothing like Rambo. It's about something as important, It's serious as hell, and it's hilarious. Like, you've got Richard Crenna and Brian Denny in Career Defining Performances. Stallone's never better.

It's a 10 out of 10 for me. And you're right, it's short. It's only got a couple of quips. Like, right, the action movies from 48 hours forward are all hilarious. This only has, like, three funny lines. This is from the star. Yeah. So, like, different than, you know, because in Rambo, he's silly.

But in this movie, he's, fucking deadly serious. That's why it's still don't you find yourself getting really caught up? Not just as like a lark watching it. Don't you get super caught up in how unfair this shit is to John Rambo? Oh yeah. Well, you think like you talk about the 70s, there's a specific type of action movie that they're making in the 70s. Like Clint Eastwood, it's like a cop who's out to get revenge. It's the dirty hairy type of movies. It's Charles Bronson.

His wife was assaulted. He's going to go out there and do it. It's always like a guy in a gun and basically somebody getting revenge or some... Nobody had really put it together. The Chuck Nouris movies in the late 70s, early 80s had kind of started to figure out, like, all right, we have this guy who the odds are against him, but he can kick everyone's ass anyway. And then Stallone puts it all together in here. And this rips off an 11-year stretch of action movies where...

Totally. You go back and there's like 30 awesome ones. You know, because Stallone, Schwarzenegger, starting the same year. By the end of the decade, we have lethal weapon and diehard, roadhouse, and point break, and it's just on and on and on, and all starts with this movie. Well, yeah, and that's the great, amazing thing about this movie, is that it is the connector, it's the linchpin, it's the turn, because this movie also follows like the paradigm of Billy Jack, right?

This is a guy who's just trying to mind. It is that thing of a guy trying to mind his own. business, which is like the Western thing too. But Billy Jack is a perfect example, which is a movie that I'm sure we both loved in the early 70s when we were able to sneak in, someone showed like your dad probably showed it to you. But like this guy who is not trying to get in the middle of something, but finally is pushed in a way too far.

And so. Well, you look at the premise, right? Guy gets harassed. Didn't want it. Just came back from Vietnam. I'm trying to find himself. Gets jailed. They crossed the line.

in jail. He breaks out, rides a dirt bike into the mountains, takes out the cops one at a time, ends up in a cave, takes on rats, breaks out again, blows up the entire town, and you're still rooting for him with a minute to go in the movie.

And he's caused, you know, tens of millions of dollars in destruction. You're like, come on, you can get out of this. Because I will talk about why it works. But the first scene in the movie,

I mean, it is perfect. So this movie, as like, just thinking about it, first of all, the book by David Morel is unbelievable. I'd read the book as a kid. A book is incredible. And the opening scene of the movie

where you just see this guy and he just wants to see like his last living friend. And they set it up so beautifully because, you know, you don't hear those names. Like Stallone rattles off a bunch of names in the beginning to the mother of one of his friends, Vietnam, who died. But he rattles off all these names

and you don't hear those names again until that very last scene. with Troutman and him. But the way they set it up, by the end, those names have stayed with you because they're so great, you know, Dan Ford the way, and you remember them by the end of the movie, and you understand what the thing's about.

Plus, dude, all he wanted, all you wanted was something to eat. Yeah. You just wanted something to eat. But Will Teesel couldn't let him have it. No, Will Teasel, great, great villain, by the way. You know, so in college, we have those, one of those colleges

where you have the special classes, you can create the special class on like experimental college or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my buddy Horgs and I, we had this movies professor we liked, and we talked them into a Vietnam's movie class. Love it. So it's just the two of us and him. We'd watch a movie every week.

Oh, like an independent study with just the two of you and this professor? We would watch a movie every week, Vietnam movie. We'd break it down. And then at the end, we had to write this 40-page term paper about all the movies. So in Shockney is we're going through all these movies. and there's a definitive shift from like the 75 to 82, that era movie and then after, was that first blood was one of the best Vietnam movies. Because a lot of them had the same theme, right?

The guys go overseas. They fight this war that America doesn't want. They come back and they can't adjust. So you have movies like Coming Home, The Deer Hunter, you have Boys and Company. What was that? Boys and Company C? And then Apocloops Now, obviously, which is the great reckoning of, Vietnam. People don't think of the original first blood as like just a good Vietnam movie,

but it is. And it all ties together with that scene you mentioned at the top when he goes to see the mom of his teammate who's dead he doesn't realize. And then at the end, when he does this whole speech and he's going, you know, back there, I could fly a gunship. I could drive a tank. I was in charge a million dollar equipment back here. I can't even hold a job parking cars. And that's the essence of the movie. And that's why it's so great. Because it's a about something. Yeah, it's about the way they were forgotten. It's about the way that they were used. And, you know, a second ago, you said Will Teasel's one of the great villains in movies. And it's fascinating, right? Because Will Teasel is a Korean War veteran. You know, we see his Purple Heart in

his valor awards in the back of his office behind him. And, you know, he makes that one veiled comment. You're not the only one with a rough time in Vietnam. And we never hear in the movie if he was Korea or Vietnam, but in the book, he's, he's, he's Korea. But he even says to Troutman, you know, you to the colonel who was the, you know, Rambo's colonel at war, I mean, he says to him, you know, you made these machines. And, and so even the guy who's like the ostensible bad guy, like the real bad guy's Art Galt, right? Teasel's a horrible guy, but he's not pure evil, the way that Art Galt is pure evil. Yeah. And, And even Will Teasel is sort of saying there was something wrong with the way Vietnam was conducted.

It's starting to seep into even guys like Teasel that Vietnam was a fucked up situation. You put these people like this John Rambo into. And so it is very textured and layered movie. I would say to you, just for the sake of this, because people will get up in arms about the best Vietnam movie thing. Apocalypse is its own thing. It's one of the best movies ever made. And for me, it is the best Vietnam movie by far. But in that next group, I think you have Stanley Kubrick's movie with the incredible

private pile thing. You know, I think that movie's stunningly good. And I think Deer Hunter is incredible because those performances and what it's about. And then I put Rambo right. And I know a lot of people don't agree, but I put first blood right there. like right in that grouping of the next best after apocalypse now. Yeah, I don't think it's the best movie, but I think it's a way better movie than people realize.

And I do think it belongs in the conversation with some of these other ones. Like, you watch Deer Hunter now, and Deer Hunter's got some incredible performances. It is really long. It is slow. It's long. It's methodical. It's a movie that I think, like, if we ask producer Craig to watch it, afterwards he'd be like what just happened why did you watch it but if you watch it there's

incredible actors there's great scenes but it's long it's a chore it like yes oh yeah dude same for coming home coming home is like not that fun of a movie to watch 10 times oh coming home is not a rewatchable movie no a deer hunter the thing about deer hunter is that i would say this to you i would say anyone who's like at all serious about films deer hunter's really important because i agree If you even think about, if you even think about like the scene about the boots, like Levine and I have said the thing about the boots to each other, thousands of times in our lives. Like, you have to have, you know, like you've got to bring your own boot.

Like, you got to have your boots. So like the, there are things in Deer Hunter that I think really last. And I think the sadness. Well, hold on that point, though, the brotherhood of the guys before and after. Yes. That's why that movie's great. It's these guys, they're just these dudes in the small town in Pennsylvania. they go hunting, they get drunk, you know, but they're, they're bonded, and then the war completely

splinters it. And the way that it's, um, look, First Blood is a, even though it's a tragic movie, and that's, this speaks to why I think it's a transitional movie, because First Blood is all about that sadness, but it's a super fun fucking ride of a movie, whereas the Deer Hunter is a fucking bummer, as Vieda was, right? It's long, it's a slog. You don't really know where you are. Deer Hunter parallels, as does Apocalypse.

Now, they kind of parallel the fucking war, whereas First Blood, it gives you a lot of visceral enjoyment along the way. First Blood is so fucking entertaining and fast, and it's lean, right? Man, there's no fat on this movie at all. No. Well, I had talking about Vietnam movies. This is the movie, because it ushers in action movies. I think it ushers in modern action movies.

It also ushers in the Hollywood stage of Vietnam movies. And what I mean by that is Hollywood saying, hey, Vietnam, this is some fertile ground for us to make movies that could actually make money and pretend they're trying to say something. Or in some cases, really do try to say something. But also, people will come see this. We can actually make money. So you're talking about uncommon valor. Remember that one with Gene Hackman? Yeah.

Missing in action, one and two with Chuck Norris. And I like two more than one, but both of them are good. But that same kind of theme of the guy, they have to go back to, there's still people there. We've got to save them. Yeah, I don't like those movies at all, but sure. Platoon, which was incredibly successful. Full Metal Jacket, which I think the first hour of it is probably the best Vietnam movie. That's the Stanley Kubrick one I was mentioning, is full metal jacket.

The first hour of full metal jacket, I think, is in the conversation for best hour of Vietnam. I don't know why I just forgot Platoon, but Platoon is right in that grouping right after Apocalypse now. Yeah. Casualties of war? Great. Not as good, but great. And born on the Fourth of July. So those are one, two, three, four, seven, eight plus the two missing actions.

Those are ten Hollywood movies where they're trying to be like, these are our new war films. We're not doing World War II anymore. We're not doing Korea. now we are in Vietnam and this is this will be our kind of war proxy and uh i don't know i still feel like first blood put put the pieces together about as well as any of them um i have a question about stalone yeah because i love stalone obviously from rocky and we have rockies in 76 rocky two is in 78 and then he puts out nighthawks and he puts out victory which are two movies that i really like. I love Victor. I think the last 25 minutes of victory is in the conversation for best

25 minutes sports movie stretch ever. But I think the perception is that he needed this first blood movie to break out of the rocky mold and become an A plus plus plus plus lister. And I think I agree with that, but I do feel like he was an A plus plus plus lister anyway, but this cemented it. Is that fair? Well, let's, if we go through it, like, victory was not considered really a successful outing. So we may have liked things about it. And obviously, I loved Fist. And because you're ignoring Paradise Alley, you know, and so he, which, you know, like Paradise

Alley, right, you don't know a bigger wrestling fan than me, but I didn't like Paradise Alley. I wanted to love it. I didn't like it either. I remember being very sad that it wasn't good. and then and then fist like was worth seeing but but as a 12 year old i could barely hang on to what was happening i remember seeing nighthawks in the theater uh and what does cobra come right after the cobras and cobras later this right cobras so after we do this we yeah we move into rocky four rocky three rocky four well it was a weird he needed this movie because yes rocky three

was huge but people thought okay he's amazing in the rocky franchise i mean sort of the way sometimes Hollywood thinks about Vin, right? Which is in Fast and the Furious, VIN's worth anything, but in other things, it's more challenging for them. I'm a huge fan, and I think Vin can win in the right role any time. But, like, the perception was that. And then staying alive didn't help. So First Blood was the one thing in the middle of all that that I think separated it out. And I think what you're really talking about is that before First Blood, before Rambo, right? So Rambo, he has a couple of bombs before Rambo. Reimstone is, the biggest bomb in the world and so is staying alive.

Like, there are bombs of an order that you can't even imagine now for a huge star. He didn't, he didn't act in staying allowed, but yeah. But here's the thing with Stallone in 82. By the end of this year, he's the biggest star in the world. Sure. Because I think up to that point, it was Bert Reynolds, Clint Eastwood kind of passing it back and forth for five years there. And I think the box office and whatever the cue rating, all the stuff they look at,

those were the two biggest stars in the world. and Stallone puts out Rocky 3 and he puts out First Blood and I think they were two of the top five biggest gross of movies of that year and also starts a new franchise that people, you know the sequels are coming after the first one

and now he's the biggest star in the world and ironically Schwarzenegger's still two years away and then Schwarzenegger grabs it and they go toe to toe for the next decade. Do you think that people knew the sequels were coming? I remember being surprised that the sequel was being filmed because there was a, because First Blood seemed like such a contained thing,

and Rambo is going to jail at the end of it. And like now, of course, we think about sequels. But then I don't remember thinking, I wish there was going to be, I just remember the excitement when we heard there was going to be First Blood, too. I remember freaking out that it was coming because the movie,

I'd you know the movie was just so overwhelmingly great and also I have a funny story of the way I saw that movie I my parents took us on a trip to England and the night we got to England it was like this big deal like our first time going to um Europe you know as kids and so it was like a big deal trip in high school like wow we're going to England and my parents got tickets to see phantom of the opera and so we get there and that next day or whatever the first day we go see Phantom of the Opera and I hate it so much that I beg my parents to let me leave. And they're like, this is the hardest ticket. This is everybody wants. Sandra Lloyd Webber. And I'm like, you know, I'm 15 years old. And I'm like, this sucks. I'm sorry, but I can't. This fucking blows.

And so the next day, my dad's like, all right, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to go see this Stallone movie called First Blood. And he's like, you want to go see a word of England. Like, we got to go see Big Ben. And I was like, no, we got to go. We got to go. So we go, my whole, I make my little sisters and my parents come with me to go see First Blood in some little tiny movie theater. We're supposed to be like seeing museums and the sites in England because I wanted to see it so bad because I'd known the book. And I remember when it ended my dad looking at me even and just being like, yep, there's not, we couldn't have spent the better two hours. Like this was the best out because and we were, it was like the movie, the theater wasn't filled. I don't know the you might, I don't know how Big Salone was at that moment in England.

but the theater wasn't filled. It was the first week the movie was out. And, but like the middle of the week or whatever. And I just remember being in England and forcing my family to go. And then it living up, you know, usually that story ends with everyone being like, you're such a schmuck. But instead, it ended with everyone being like, all right, that was fucking incredible. I'm so glad that we did it.

So, like, I'll never forget the experience of seeing this movie for the first time. So he had 82. He had Rocky 3 First Blood. in the 85, Rocky 4 and Rainbow 2. And I remember, so First Blood has this whole extra run because HBO, really everybody started to get HBO around 83,

somewhere in there. I remember we got it in 82. But I think by 83, 84, HBO was a go-to place, especially if you love movies. And there were only so many movies they had. And First Blood goes in the rotation on HBO and gets this whole other rewatchable life because it's like, oh,

he's about to break out of the jail, I'm in, I'm just going to watch. And I remember they got the rights to Rambo 2, but we didn't know they were like, we have this big movie where we're premiering on whatever day. I don't remember if it was like New Year's Eve or whatever, but they didn't say it was Rambo 2. And the reveal was it was Rambo 2. It was like, oh, my God. Because, you know, the whole infrastructure of how to see a movie was so much worse back then.

Oh, totally. Movies would just come and go. You couldn't even find them. But, yeah, I'm now wondering if that England thing was like my second time, and that's why I made my parents go that I knew. But my memory is seeing it the first time is there. Yes, I don't remember. We didn't get HBO. So I didn't get HBO until I was like back from college or something, somehow where I was.

So I didn't have that experience you had. I had video, maybe I watched on Betamax. I'm going to give you the best actor for 1982 for the 83 Oscars. Ben Kingsley wins for Gandhi. Dustin Hoffman nominated for Tutsi. Paul Newman nominated for the verdict. Peter O'Toole nominated for my favorite year. I'm good with those four.

I think maybe Paul Newman should have won, but I'm good with the four. I wouldn't have done the Kingsley Gandhi again. The fifth spot was Jack Lemon for missing. Yeah, I'm a fanatic for that movie. Those are the right nominations. That's exactly right. Stallone has no case?

No, none. No case. Come on. When's the last time you watched missing? I watched missing last year. Who else? It's un-fucking-blood. Okay.

All right. Have you watched missing? Go watch missing again. It's fucking insane. I'm just checking. It's insanely good. A couple other things. And Kingsley's good.

Come on, Kingsley's so good in that. One's last Gandhi conversation. I got to take up Chris Ryan. Like, if Ryan were here or Sean, I think they would be big Kingsley defenders. So I have to like, I think I have to take the geeky sort of, it was really hard what Ben Kingsley did in that movie.

Position that like Ryan or Sean might take. Paul Newman should have won. The screenplay, you mentioned this was based on a book, bounced around for years. We'll get to it later. It was considered a curse project. And they end up making it. There's some good stuff about that later.

But I'm going to do this now. We could do this later in a wood stage the best. But let's do it now because we're talking about the sequels. I think this might have been the smartest action movie decision anyone's ever made. In the script, Rambo kills himself in the end. And at some point, first of all, test audiences, didn't like it. They filmed a couple different endings. They tried one with the test audience where he died. And they decide, no, actually, let's not have him kill himself. We end up with, I don't know

how many more Rambo movies, slide grabs the action movie, belt, the sequel's coming. And the lesson is don't ever kill your hero in an action movie, because you never know. You just never know. Fast and Furious at the end of the first one, if Dom dies in the car crash, don't kill your hero. Don't kill your hero. Just don't. This movie, $50 million. budget made $125 million domestic. It sold 76 million tickets in China, which was the highest ever until 2018 for an American movie. You mentioned it was based on the 72 novel,

the same name by David Morel. There are three people on the screenplay, including Slay. Ted Kochf directed two other movies he did, North Dallas 40 and Weekend at Burdies. Weekend at Burdies. I know. I know. North Dallas 40, though, No, the first one, the original version of that, man, I loved it in the theater as a kid. Good movie.

Because the cursing in it and stuff, like the fact that you got to go see that was a bit, I had to really convince my parents to get me into that movie. That's a good football movie, yeah. That's a good one. Do you think kids today miss that? Kids today miss out on that whole R-rated. Producer Craig doesn't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, that movie's 40-year-old.

Do they miss out completely on trying to argue, though, to get to go to see an R-rated movie? Like, I feel like because of TV, like, do you remember what the arguments you had to mount, like the appeals you had to make to go see an R-rated movie? I had to do a lot to get to go see one of those movies. You just get the PG movie and then sneak into the R though. That was pretty easy. Yeah, you could sneak in or I had a friend who was an usher finally at a theater and he would let us in. But it was a wait.

But what was nominated for the screenplay? Because this, we may have an argument here that we should have been nominated for an Oscar. What were the best screenplay noms adapted? Do you know that year? All right. So Best Adapted. Missing, your favorite movie. One for Best Adapted.

Costa Gavris. Deserved it. Yeah, what else? The other ones were the verdict. Sophie's choice, Victor Victoria, and Das Boot. I would slide this in ahead of Victor Victoria, actually. Though, that's not probably a popular opinion right now. But I would...

Not a classic. So, Ted Kochiff, does anyone have a weirder trio of hits than Weekend at Bird News, North Dallas, Forty, Rainbow? I say no. Morel's book had the Rambo character killing many of his pursuers. In the end, they decide that he's not direct or responsible for anybody's death. And then they did film the suicide scene, but they opted to turn himself in.

Here's what shocked me. Mixed reviews. People were kind of lukewarm on it. One person who wasn't lukewarm was Roger Ebert, three stars. Didn't like the ending, but said Stallone wrote a very good movie, well-paced, well-acted, not only by Stallone,

but also by Crennan, Brian Denny. And then he said, although almost all of First Blood is implausible because it's Stallone on the screen. We'll buy it. I disagree with that. I don't think it's impossible. I feel like this could have happened. I couldn't agree with you more.

It totally could have happened. I mean, I don't know if the contained explosions could really happen in real life. Like, stuff just explodes throughout the movie. And it's just like one end, it's just like one building or one place that explodes. But I remember that the reviews were mixed. You got to remember that after Rocky won, the Rocky movies got some mixed reviews. too. People felt like Rocky, I know you've covered this, but people were mad that Rocky won the best picture, and there was blowback on Stallone. Well, didn't it beat Network, though?

Or didn't it beat Network? All the president's men and stuff, right? Yeah, that's tough. No, so people were mad about it winning. And, you know, remember, Rocky 3 didn't get like great reviews, right? Neither did Rocky 4. People had issues with the Stallone sort of thing, really. after Rocky. Oh, God. It beat all the president's been network and taxi driver. Right. Yeah.

People think it's one of the all-time travesties. Yeah. I got to say, it's not great. We're going to take a break and then we're going to do the categories. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda.

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Intuit ERP. If scaling your business feels like start starting over, you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI-Native ERP solution that consolidates, migrates, and automates, all in one place. Learn more at intuit.com slash ERP. All right, most rewatchable scene. Man, I try to narrow this down. Rambo escapes from the jail. I watch this with my son in the first like, I don't know, 10 minutes, he's like, Dad, this is so slow, this sucks.

I'm like, all right, just wait. And then when they're trying to shave him, you're just going to shave your partner. Take it easy. Take this, Mitch. Don't move. I don't want you to catch your own throat. And he just cleans house.

Yeah, the roof grabs the guy in the motorcycle. The motorcycle thing is the greatest. Does the Jared Goff Happy Feet dance? Yeah. All of it is so good. And then hops on the motor scooter and drives off. And the movie's off.

It's like, wow, what's next? Where can we go? I can watch this over and over again. And Stallone says in the research, like, some of the stunts they did, the stunt choreography wasn't exactly done really well. And there's like the bike and the car that go flying over that bump.

Like, apparently the first take of that, the guy got hurt, the stunt driver, because it went too high, it landed and he had, like, a back injury from it. The bike thing is freaking amazing. That's one of those things where that, again, like that movie influenced so many filmmakers, I think, little moments and actors, like,

think about, when you talk about the, this is the modern action star, like that moment when Stallone is figuring out how to take the bike, think about those actor instincts like that little happy dance thing as he sort of cat he just sells that so fucking hard bill it it's i find that to be like this there's a reason stalone became what he became not just the writing obviously he's one of the greatest sort of figures in the second half of the 20th century in film and he is like underrated somehow i think stelone is underrated like you look at that

sequence and with no dialogue what he is able to he doesn't speak and when you think about what he's able to pull off. We are bonded to him, man. And Caruso helps a lot, which I'm sure we'll talk about, but we are bonded to Stallone and to John Rambo from that sequence. And I agree. That scene is one of the most rewatchable sequences in movies. That from the moment he's arrested to the moment he gets on that motorcycle is as good as action filmmaking can possibly get, I think. I actually, I checked the clock the second time I rewatch this over the last three days. It's about 30 minutes

from him about to get shaved all the way through to him hanging off the cliff and him getting away and then him breaking off. It's 30 minutes. Just that whole long section and then when he starts wiping out people,

that's a whole separate thing. But it's just, it moves so fast. It's all believable. And the stunt is really, really good because they were probably not following protocols with certain things. The way he's riding the motorcycle, I don't know how that dude survived because it was like wet. He's flying through gas stations, all that stuff. Anyway, that was the first one. Well, you're talking about a guy who got in the ring with Ernie Shavers and let Ernie Shavers actually punch him in the gut.

Stallone took a lot. Right. I mean, he tells that, like, I think Stallone went to the hospital because Shavers in practice and they were considering having Shavers play the Mr. T-Part in three. You know, he sent Stallone to the hospital. So, like, Stallone was willing. Yeah. Well, he goes to the hospital in our next rewatchable scene,

which is Rambo in the cliff. You have evil art with the black eye. Like, you hold that helicopter steadyer. I'm going to kill you. And then Rambo looking and you're like, wait a second, how's he going to pull off this jump? And he does the jump. He jumps into the tree.

And Stallone apparently performs. to stunt himself for the bottom third of the fall and broke one of his ribs on the tree branch. So then had a broken rib the rest of the way. But I think that's, that's got to be the first time somebody did something like that in a movie. It's been replicated a bunch of times ever since.

I know I'm Butchin Sundance. They jump off, but it's not, this was harrowing and this was been ripped off for 40 years ever since. Like this kind of moment, like, wait a second, he's not going to jump. Is he? Yeah, he's jumping.

Also, I mean, you're, we have, I had never seen a human being look like what Stallone looked like hanging from there, right? Like Butch and Sundance are just regular. I mean, they're the most handsome guys, I guess, in the world. But physically, from their bodies, they're just dudes, right? What Stallone's doing when he's hanging on that cliff and throwing the rock and shit, you're also just looking at this thing that looks like a war machine, Bill. They, like, crafted a huge.

And like, yeah, Dolf Lung with their guys later who, who, augmented in a certain way. But Sly at that moment just actually looks like a fucking war machine. And it's the most compelling thing. Yeah, the fall, like you believe, this is I guess what Ebert was getting at.

You know, that fall when he's like, oh, Jesus, all that shit. And he falls. Because of what he looked like, his physicality, you do believe he could survive the fall somehow. Like, you buy into it all.

Also, we learned a valuable lesson. Jump into the tree, not the water. Jump into the tree. Jump into the tree. It might work out correct as long as you don't get stabbed. That seems really good. I also love when he throws the perfectly timed rock

where he's like, he's like Yassie O'Puyig from deep left field, throws the 300 foot cannon, somehow hits the helicopter right in the glass, and causes the thing and art to fall to his death. The next one. Wow. Rambo now he's mad. It's nighttime.

Caruso and the gang are in the mountains looking for him. There's dogs. Caruso's like, does the, we're not hunting him. He's hunting us. Let's do some hunting. Hunting. We ain't hunting him. He's hunting us.

And then Rambo just one by one starts taking him out. He's got the cool thing with the wood, wood stuff sticking out. Each guy takes it. He got that going very quick. I will say he built that. He built that thing. very quickly. I had that in picking nits. He's got a lot of stuff going on it. At one point, he's covered in mud the next time he's not, he's wiped, he gets the haunch, handstrings.

And he gets the haunch, he gets the haunch of the bore going pretty quickly too. Yeah, true. There are a few of those moments, but it's amazing. But, and then there's one more most watchable, right? I have a few more. Okay, good, go. Roll them. I really like Troutman's first scene. God didn't build Rambo. I made him. I have a possessed God in heaven to make a man like Rambo. God didn't. Greg Rambo. I made him. Who the hell are you?

Sam Trotman. Colonel Samuel Trotman. Look, we're a little busy this morning, Colonel. What can I do for you? I've come to get my boy. Your boy? I recruited him. I trained him.

I commanded him in Vietnam for three years. I'd say that makes him mind. The whole thing in Will Teasel's just in complete disgust. And Troutman clearly knows, like, this is not going to go well for basically everybody, but Rambo. Come on, that's when Troutman says, Hey, things will make a belly goat puke. That's good. The rats are great.

The rats in the theater. I don't think it's the same, and no matter how your big TV is at home, when it's on the 50-foot theater, and he's going through, and then you see the one rat, and you're like, uh-oh. And then it goes,

and all of a sudden there's six on his back, and it's just, you're like, ah, get out of there. Stallone said Rats are calm and friendly unless there's cold water So you had to make another trip to the hospital Because he got bit and scratched by the rats And he had to get a tetanus shot

And then two more rewatchables When he escapes When he jumps on the thing Goes into the Jeep He's like Look at the road That's how accidents happen Which is funny

One of the only why ass lines, yeah. Blows up the gas station. Oh, that's great. And then the ending, Troutman, dispission is over, Rambo. It's over, Johnny.

It's over. Nothing is over. And he does the whole thing. And it's actually really good acting from Stallone. It's like shockingly good. For all the shit, Stallone, people making fun and some of the bad moments he's had in movies over the years. I think he's really good in that scene.

Do you find that scene rewatchable, though? See, I don't find that scene so rewatchable. watchable because it's very emotion. I agree with what you're saying. I'm flagging it. Okay, let's flag it. Fine. It's a great scene.

My most rewatchable is Rambo escapes from the jail and goes to the cliff and all that. I just, all the way to the cliff, I think is great. I think, honestly, you almost have to cheat. There's like a 30-minute re-watchable stretch that just has to be the most rerachable. I think if you're just going to nail the thing, the jail to the motorcycle, if we're keeping it to just one scene. But that sequence, you're right. Right. And I think for me, that and the Troutman, Troutman's entrance as someone who loves dialogue and loves Richard Krenna, because the other Richard Krenna Flamingo Kid, which she knows a movie I fucking love, is the other movie where Krenna just blows the world away. And like, that guy was so valuable. And I'm sure you'll, you know this, but because I forget who it was. I didn't read it right now. But someone else was supposed to get that part until like the day before. Richard Krenna only got that part the day before.

I'm sure you have that in the cast and what-ifs. But, okay. But, I mean, to come in and just nail that shit the way Richard Crenna did, unbelievable. What's age the best is our next category. The premise is just unassailable. I love the music. It's a great score. And then when he plows through the cars near the end and it does the

da-da-na-na-na-da-da-da- like the happy. But the score is way, way up there. really good. I couldn't agree with you more. I think there are a few things that have aged the best. Oh, I have more. Go. Lay them on me. All right, I'll lay them up. The whole concept of PTSD with a hero in a movie was still pretty new. And now I think we've seen it a million different ways. But in this case, to see it in a movie like this where I'm 13 years old and I'm like, what's going? Why is Stallone having a moment here? What's, what's, what's, what's burning inside him.

Like, I don't know. This is kind of how I learned about PTSD. Though I think, it's interesting. I think that the only filmmaking technique, and I was thinking about this, because I watched The Five Bloods recently, which is an amazing Vietnam movie.

And actually, it's not of that era. I don't know if you saw it, but it's spectacular. And Spike, I think, did the flashbacks better. I was just saying, the PTSD flashbacks as a filmmaking technique with like that yeah for me as a

filmmaking technique did not age very well like but so I agree that the idea of PTSD I met more than the monologue at the end yeah perfect I think that's perfect keep going what else Caruso early Caruso with a terrible haircut as

but kind of sneering and you could see the foundation he's also an officer and a gentleman right around the same time and he was somebody to watch from this point out I have Caruso in a few different categories here that we'll get to because, yes, I agree with you. But like the, how about just like police brutality as a thing that was not really the, the, you might have cops being like in dirty hairy movies like certain cops being bad to other cops or then or cops being like vigilantes.

But I don't know, man. This is one of the first times that you really saw in a movie in a popular movie. The idea, in a popular movie, the idea. The police acting inappropriately. that the cops treated this person like shit for no real reason. And then I think John Rambo 1.0, too, sort of like that original version of Rambo has aged very well. I also have Will Teasel when they find out Rambo's alive and they tell him

and you see him slowly stand in the office. It's really good. Just a nice little image. Amazing. I like the dumbass weekend National Guard guys posing for the picture in front of the wreckage is really funny. Well, I got to go back to the drugstore on Monday. All that stuff is great. I for years have done deep dives on the guy who played Clinton Morgan. Because I don't understand where that guy, like, I don't, he's Timothy Stack's brother. Timothy Stack,

who's been on a bunch of shows. His brother is this guy, Peter Stack, who played, it's Clinton Morgan. And I don't know how that guy didn't get in like a bunch of Bill Murray movies. He disappeared. I don't know why. He's great. hilarious. Rambo's saying they drew first blood, not me, they drew first blood into the Wauki-Tocke. Well, look, John, we can't have you running around out there, waste on friendly civilians. There are no friendly civilians. Well, I'm your friend, Johnny. I was there with you knee deep in all that blood and guts.

I covered your ass more than once. Seems like bailing you out of trouble is getting to be a lifetime job for me. There wouldn't be no trouble except for that king's shit cop. All I wanted was something to eat. Well, you did some pushing of your own. on, John. They drew first blood, not me. Look, Johnny.

Let me come in and get you the hell out of there. They did you first blood. Great call. As you know, I love when they say the title in the dialogue. But you're right, that is aged, as has, you know, why are you pushing me? But that has aged perfectly the first blood thing. I think in retrospect with rounders, you needed worm to say to Mike McDee's something like, you know, we're just a couple of rounders.

Like, when you can work that title and into the dialogue. Yeah. It's a fair point. Maybe in rounders two, maybe. I mean, we get the word in once. We get the word in once in the movie, round in again. But you're right.

You're right. You're correct. It's just, it's just the cherry and the ice cream Sunday. Last one. What stage the best? I love any time the credits and it's like the producers are Mario Casar and Andrew J. Vagina. I'm not convinced those were real people.

I think they just sounded like powerful foreign producers that might not have actually. existed. Can I be honest with you? You just did your own, these are my readers. Because you're right. But you were just became one of your readers suggesting that that was an amazing moment. I agree with you. Those guys get such a great crazy point to make that maybe those weren't real guys. They were just put on the end of all these different action movies. Mario Casar and Andrew G. Vagna, why did he need the middle in this show? Were there other Andrew vaginas that he was fighting against? I know what happened to those guys and everything, but people should be, like, yes, can I just tell you?

I remember those names, too, but this is long before I started noticing that shit, I was, you know, 16 or 15. But those guys were just, you knew it wasn't exactly the mark of quality when they were on the movie, but it was like a movie that you and your friends were going to watch and then act out later. So good. It's a great point, Simmons. What's age the worst? So apparently the first rough cut was over three hours. Stallone said it was so bad it made him and his agent sick. Stallone decided he was going to buy the movie and destroy it

because he thought it was going to kill his career. And then they heavily re-edited it and it was cut down to 93 minutes. Okay, I never knew that. I love it. I love it. I'm okay with the 93 minutes cut, but if they, if I, 103 minutes, I could have gone with 10 more minutes of him in the jungle, just figuring stuff out.

Like maybe one more wild boar getting killed, a couple other things. I caught one of these cuts last night when I was watching it again. When Teasel is being told that they were rough on him. Yeah. They cut out, you can feel they cut out a lot of stuff because he just goes, they were pretty rough on him. And then that state cop goes like, those assholes! And he says it's so big that you know that used to be like three paragraphs of everything they did to him. And it just got cut.

It just got cut out of the movie. You can feel those things. You know what else? Can I say one other thing that's aged really well in the movie? That's a weird thing, but for filmmaking people. Yeah. And it's really awesome. There are these little tiny moments of sort of like real life that give it so much credibility in the movie.

And I'll give you two examples. One is when you go down in the jail, they're like painting the jail. Like there's no reason for that. There's like a ladder up and they're painting the jail. And the other is when that guy's supposed to be on the radio, it's a great thing. If anyone listen to this, like, wants to write shit. Like, they're in the tent. They're supposed to be, everyone's supposed to be on high alert.

And Will Teasel and Troutman walk in. And the guy who's supposed to be monitoring shit is reading a magazine. And Will Teesel's like, come on, put the magazine away. And it's so credible to me of, like, what would really be going on. And it's not played for big laughs or anything. But it just makes you believe that you're in a, as this crazy shit's happening, it makes you believe you're in the real world of the movie. And there are little.

touches like that through the whole thing that I think just are great. Well, it's like when that guy says he has to go back to the drugstore on Monday. That was another one. Yeah. You're right. They do a lot of good stuff. Another would stage the worst. The scene when Troutman and Will Teasel end up getting a drink together at the bar.

Come on. It just feels so forced. It makes no sense. Wise Troutman. He's just like, I'm going to have a scotch and soda. And then Will Teasel is like, hey. Hey, buddy. It's just, I don't know.

I would bet you that in that scene, so here's what I'd bet. I would bet that in the long version, Will Teasel told him about his own war service. Well, so that was another what's age of worse for me, because in the book, a big piece of the tension between Will Teasel and Rambo is the Korean War of Vietnam War thing

because the Korean War people look down on the Vietnam War people. Right. And I actually don't know why they didn't tap into that. I think that would have been an easy thing to do in this scene. Because, yeah, we went to the Korean War. That actually meant something. This Vietnam War is a piece of shit.

I bet you that it's like, I bet you. He's like, I went to war. It sucked. I came back and I'm a responsible man. And your guys come back in there. Like, I'm sure that was in there. But for me, I love that scene because you get these two actors who will talk about, I hope a lot more.

But, you know, Danahee is absolutely one of the greatest American film actors. Just period. Like, one of the greatest of all time. And so you got these two. Wow. That's a strong statement. Well, think about, think about Silverado. Just think about everything Denny he's,

has he ever been less than amazing in anything you've seen? You know, Denny he was just, think about him in a cocoon. Like anything Denny he was in, he was like the best thing in it for 50 years. And like never a movie star, right? They never made a move like once or twice a thing. I got to interview him for page two when he was doing the season of the Brink movie.

I never met him. They sent me to Winnipeg and I was furious and it was like minus 30. And I ended up interviewing. him in the trailer and it was basically a podcast, but I recorded it. I used as transcript. I bet it's on the internet. What was he like? But I really, I really liked him. But what was funny was I was really ready to talk first blood. And it was clear he didn't like Sly. I was like, what was he was like? He was like, oh, he was nice. But he had like 10 minutes of Chris Farley material. But Sly it was like a one sentence throwaway. So it was like, oh, I heard a great story the other day

about Denny. He toured the end of his career. He showed up on a friend set and the friend had planned this whole thing. This is when Denny he was getting old toward the end, but still the best actor. And my friend had, I guess, set up a whole thing where Dejee was supposed to walk across the room and turn around and get this guy's face and Daddy just sits down in the thing. And he goes, I'm an actor who works sitting down now. And they're like, no, no, but he's like, I'm sitting right here. Let's figure out how we're going to do the scene. And he just wouldn't move. That's great. And the guy ended up saying, you know, it was a great scene. But yeah, at a certain point, he's like, I sit down now when I act. So this is the number one, what's age the worst thing for me. By the way,

this isn't even a what's age the worst. It's just an interesting point. There are no women in this movie? We have a woman in the beginning. And then after that, it's just dudes for the next hour 25. I think she's the only person of color in the movie too. Yeah. Well, we are in like this where are we in like Oregon or somewhere? But it's both things, right? It's like she's the only person of color and the only woman in the whole movie. This is the what stage is the worst. And this is, it gets me every time. It's a long road.

The theme for first blood, which comes on at the end after it turns to Ben Hill. It's so bad. I'm going to play some of it right now for everybody. What is this? How do they end the movie with this? I can't slam Dan Hill. It's a long road.

This is where we part ways, Simmons. this this is that a song that should have been in first blood what are you talking about dad hill wrote and saying sometimes when we touch the most confusing and important ballad of my childhood yeah i couldn't tell me you understood that song when you were a kid and i'll tell you you're a liar i had no idea what that meant hear the lyrics for it's a long road it's a long road when you're on your own and it hurts when they tear your dreams apart and every new town just seems to bring you down trying to find peace of mind could break your heart. It's a real war right outside your front door, I tell you, out where they'll kill you, you could use a friend where the road is. That's the place for me.

Where I'm me in my airspace. Where I'm free, that's the place I want to be because the road is long. Settle down, Daniel. Couldn't they have just given us like a foreigner or something? Here, now look, you're looking at me. So you see, I don't have anything in front of me. I'm not reading anything. Yeah. I'll just say the opening of sometimes when we touched is you asked me if I loved you and I choked on my reply, I'd rather hurt you honestly than mislead you with a lie. Come on, Dan Hill. Whether Dan Hill was good or not is a separate discussion. I just know he should have been in this movie.

I'll just say maybe a Canadian cheer. If you want me to take your side on this, I'll say this. There's no reason an American movie like that should have a Canadian sing in the end song. Great point. All right. We're going to take a break. Come back with casting what ifs. It's only getting every customer's order right.

It's only a point of sale system connected by Spectrum Fiber Power. business internet, helping you track hundreds of secure transactions. And it's all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based customer support and local technicians. It's only everything. Get business internet advantage free, forever, when you get four mobile lines from Spectrum. Visit Spectrum.com slash free for life to find out how. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. Casting what if? So initially, they almost made this movie in 1975. The producers wanted Steve McQueen. Then they rejected him, they considered him too old to play a Vietnam veteran from 75. They also kicked the tires on Chris Christopherson.

Intriguing. And then it went in a turnaround. The rights got shot there, all that stuff. Finally, they started making it. For Denahey's part, they approached two Academy Award winners. Gene Hackman, Robert Duvall. Both of them turned it down. They would have both been incredible.

Well, let's talk this out for a second. because I'm with you. I love Brian Denny. Gene Hackman, as Will Teasel, I think the movie's better. I got to say, I think it goes up a level. I think you don't get untouchable.

I think you don't get the Clint Eastwood movie then. Unforgiven? I don't think you get him an unforgiven if he does this. All right, so you're saying I can't get him an unforgiven if I get him here. So I'm better off with Dennyi. He never played the same part twice, and that's the same part, basically. Okay, fair. Duval would have been good.

Incredible. I do think Dennyhee's body, though. The way Dennyhee uses his body made it a big deal. They offered Colonel Troutman to Lee Marvin, who turned it down. Then they hired Kirk Douglas. And Kirk Douglas quits on the set over a script dispute. And there's some crazy research about this. I don't even know what's real or what's not real.

But Douglas wanted the film then like the book did and had this idea that Troutman could turn into Rambo at the end. and the film ended with Troutman driving off wearing a headband with Rambo tied to the front of the car and then Stallone and the director were like, we're not doing that. So Douglas quit. I don't know what's true or not true,

but Douglas definitely quit. Yeah, and then they hired, they hired, they hired Crenna like in 24 hours. So although Kirk Douglas is one of the greatest movie stars who ever lived, like, you know, I don't actually think he's better for this movie than Richard Crenet because what you get with Richard Crenna is

the total enjoyment of every line. He says, like, Richard Crenna is having the best time you've, like, ever seen anybody have in a movie. He just decided that Colonel Troutman being back in action and being superior to everybody was like the happiest

that Colonel Troutman ever was. So every fucking line, this guy's amusing the shit out of himself. And it's totally entertaining to watch. Yeah, he's almost, it's almost like Chevy Chase. like it's just ripping on people left, right. But even when he's watching, but Will, Bill,

even when he's watching, what he's watching after they're sure they've killed Rabbo. And he just kind of shrugs his shoulders to himself, Richard Krenna, because he knows the smoke, he sees the smoke, nobody else can see. It's pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. Yeah, he looks out with that little smirk on his face.

Next category, best that guy, I can't the Joey Pants Award. So Chris Malky's in this. He's also in 48 hours two months later. I'm not positive Chris Malky's of that guy because he might be Chris Mokie. He's been a lot of movies. I think this guy is that guy.

So one of the cops that's chasing him, when Stallone builds that thing with the wood that slams into the guy with the six wood pieces right into his waist, that guy was one of the sidekick cops on Miami Vice with Don Johnson. Right. He was either Zito or Switech.

I can't remember which one, but he was on that show for five years. So I'm giving that to him. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for best overacting. I say this with all due respect, but Sly's last monologue, he dials it up. He's really going for it.

It's Caruso. You think Caruso overacted? Oh, but I love Caruso in the movie. I just thought like he was Caruso. But, no, he's so, think about Caruso on NYPD Blue or on the, you know, CSI thing. And he always plays everything cool or tough.

And here, Just that, I knew there was something about that guy. It's a very, I mean, he just sells it everything so hard. For me, I think Sly earned it because, like, he's quiet the whole movie and he finally explodes. I'm not going to argue with you, though. I just, for me, it's Caruso. We each have nominees.

I had Caruso as one of our two finalists for the Dian Waders Award. It's either Caruso, who, his part's really a nothing part, but he stands out because he's just good at acting. or art the psycho assistant sheriff who from from the first moment is just the embodiment of evil is that we're going to shave you yeah he said clean him up so clean him up yeah man he that guy's that guy's intense and i think he's the yeah because also you know why he's only in like eight minutes of screen time and he hangs over the whole movie yeah like he's out of that movie by the he's only been in the movie i had a seven eight minutes total on him and by the end of the movie, you're on Stallone's side because of how bad that guy was.

Recasting couch, you're not going to like this. Just what? Just the thought exercise. We're going to walk through it. So Richard Crenna, I agree he's good in this movie. And I do like Richard Crenna. But I was trying to think, could there be a better actor than Richard Crenna in this movie? What about Roy Scheider?

But if you want to, I think that what you're going for there is really James Garner. James Garner? James Garner because I like the fun So Roy Scheider would have been more intense but I think you need the fun I think you need the light

I think you need someone with a light comic touch underneath the like William Devane could have done it William Devane That's a good one too I like William Devane

From the same marathon man From the Marathon Man era Half Fast Internet research You know The Knife World There's a whole knife world out there, knife fanatics. They really like this movie. There's a 2011 article in Blade magazine

where credits given the Rambo franchise for revitalizing the cutlery industry. Stallone was really maniacal about the knife that he used. He picked it out. He was really important to him. And Blade magazine, they really appreciated it.

So when Stallone makes the we didn't talk about when he makes the coat from that piece of canvas he found in the woods, which is great. There was not a movie prop. That was a real piece of rotten canvas that was found by the film crew. And Stallone kept it and still has it.

So Stallone in the jail escape scene after he gets upstairs, when he sweeps the guy's leg and then elbows the guy, he actually legit broke the guy's nose. Oh, no. Lester. I didn't know that.

So when Lester comes up. back later, he's got the two black eyes and the band-aid-ed over his nose. It's because he actually has a broken nose. The motorcycle scene, I mentioned. The stuntman representing Sheriff Teesel suffered a broken back. The first take, he went so high that the car landed and his back broke. In the DVD, there's a DVD commentary, which I did not listen to, but you can find out some of the takes in there. Stallone compares Rambo to the monster of Dr. Frankenstein and Colonel Charles.

Troutman as the doctor, that Rambo was a war machine monster created by America to do its bidding. That was how he saw the rainbow character. Stallone asked for $3.5 million for the role. Mario Casar and Andrew G. Vajna told him he could have $2 million and they made it up for him with TV sales. There was a Brian Dennyi controversy? What is it? During the promotion of this movie? I don't know.

He implied he served in Vietnam and several public statements. Yeah. And then it turned out he was in the U.S. Marines but finished his tour of service before U.S. forces were deployed. So they kind of caught him. I'm not going to hold it against him. And then there's a flashback scene where January, 1981, Penn House Pet of the Month, Susie Pye filmed the flashback scene with Stallone,

where she plays a nude Vietnamese prostitute who makes love to Rambo. Cut from the release, but you can find it on the special edition DVD in the deleted scenes menu. Probably a smart cut. As you know, my rule is deleted scenes. You usually deleted for a reason. Yeah, most often, it's a good thing that they're deleted. I never knew that that existed. I did read about the Denahue controversy, which I guess he didn't admit to.

It's like 2000. Apex Mountain, Slice Stallone, not yet. You would have thought, but not yet. Because 85, he's got Rambo first blood, too, and Rocky 4, same year, which was his apex. Brian Denahey It's an interesting one This is a major, major, major successful movie and he's the number two star

in it and it does set him up for the rest of the decades, so I think you can make a case, yes. Well, him or the guy I guess you don't like that much, Richard Krenna, but I think... I don't like it as much as you. Krenna have, I think definitely for Krenna. Because he basically plays this guy in Rainbow 2.

He plays him in the Charlie Sheen parody movie. Like, he keeps this going. I think Richard Crenna, I mean, yet Deney did after this get to star in a couple of movies, right? Like he'd starred in that movie with James Woods or a couple of them. He became...

Yeah, he's in the FX. Both of them. Those are good movies. Yeah, he, I think you can make either argument there. David Morel, too, because it finally happened for him, and then all his books became bestsellers. Richard Crenno is basically, like, a little too good to be in the Love Boat Fantasy Island,

Charlie's Angels CoJack Vortex But also like You know you look at his You look at his IMDB The same year he makes Fomingo K A movie you love A year later he makes Rambo 2

And then he makes a TV movie Called The Rape of Richard Beck Sure listen, credit I like to work But I would say that it's a really hard There are a lot of TV movies in his IMDB I'll put it that way I would just say it's a really hard That role

Colonel Tripp you think about it What does he have to do? He has to sell you on the whole idea of what and who John Rambo is and what it all means. And he's basically just coming in to do Basil exposition until the very end. And so the way he just chooses to pull it off is, I just say it's a high degree of difficulty part. And he makes it look easy. That's all I'll say about that. And then if you watch Flamago Kid, he's a totally different dude and is amazing in Flamago.

He's really good in that movie. That's my suggestion. Mori Pecks Mountain. Vietnam action movies? Sure. Okay. Hunting Knives? Oh.

Oh. Oh, what a great call. Trying to remember a better hunting knife movie. Well, I'm sure there's one where a bad guy does something with a hunting knife that's pretty amazing that people are going to yell at us for forgetting. But I love it. It's a great, great character in this. Early 80s movie graphics.

How about that? Some good graphics in this. Like the old school, it really feels rooted in 1982. Opening credits. That's all I have for Apex Mountain. I guess Susie Pye, I guess we could put her in Apex Mountain, too, even though she got deleted. Penhouse Pet of the Month in January 81.

Exploding, I think exploding ammo. Oh, okay. Some picking nets. It's unclear when he's taking out. the posse one at a time. At one point he's just covered in mud. At another point, he's somehow scaled this 15-foot tree. I don't know how he got up there.

It's way up there. It's like, what did you like, shimmy up 15 feet? There's some liberties taken. Well, yeah. There are a few, I think. Like the way how quickly he got the haunch off the bore, I mentioned. Also, I'll say. train, not dying immediately?

I have a big knit to pick with the local cops getting to run this mission. Like, the whole department's been depleted. They're all in the hospital except that. Every one of them is basically hospitalized, except for like Danny Heath Caruso and the broken

nose dude, right? The rest of them are super fucked up. I mean, one guy got the full garrot against the tree. Another guy, they probably had to amputate his legs to save him. I mean, it's like a lot of shit that happened. And then the whole thing is the state cop goes, I'm taking this. And then all the Tiesel has to do is look at the guy and go, don't give me your jurisdictional

bullshit, John. And then the guy's like, okay. Like, that's just not the way that would, I mean, you'd have the FBI. It's just not the way that would be run, right? It's just not going to be run by Will Teasel. Yeah, he's not running this. That's all I'm saying. Because we're in like East Bumpfuck Oregon or East Bumpfuck Washington.

Pacific Northwest, it seems like, maybe. And also that Will Tiesel, I'll say another knit is. is like Rambo's obviously wearing a jacket of an army vet. And Will Teasel is like, hey, don't wear the flag that way. And Will Teesel, having been in the army, would recognize, I think, pretty quickly that this guy was a veteran of a foreign war. But never, right? I mean, he would just, he just would have recognized it. But he doesn't.

And the movie doesn't work if he doesn't. So, you know. More picking nits. It never strikes me as anything but dumb when Rambo picks up the walkie-talkie the first time because he hears Richard Crenna. I think he's too smart to do that. He knows they're going to location device him within 30 seconds. Well, yeah, and only along those lines, like the fact what you said about that they found

that tarp lying around to make the jacket out of, I will say it just so happens that every place Rambo was, once he discards a few things because they're not what he needed, he does always find exactly. Like, he needs gasoline. And yeah, the first two things that he opens don't have gasoline in him. Yeah. But the third thing does. Like, it is true that whatever he, whatever he happens to need, it does show up right around the corner. Like, he jumps on the one, one Jeep that has the M-Aid in the back. The pig is in the back of that one particular Army truck, yes. What year was this supposed to be?

Oh, I thought it was supposed to. Is it not the year that it's shot, like 81? Yeah, so if that's the case, like Vietnam ended at 1975. So what was he doing for six years? He's been walking around for, they wouldn't let him, they won't even let him work at a car wash.

So he got fired from a car wash, or parking cars, I guess. They won't let them park cars. I think they should have rooted it in like 1977. It would have made more sense. He's been drifting. I feels like also he might have snapped before this. That's my question.

That's my unanswerable question that I'll ask you. We get to unanswerable question and that's my question. Rambo's refusal to kill innocent people turns out to be his fatal flaw. It's not quite a picket knit, but maybe when he hops on the Jeep, maybe just kill that guy and then you can just drive away. Nobody finds you. there are some incredible daytime, nighttime, liberties taken in the last 20 minutes of this film

where he comes out, it's daylight, he jumps on the Jeep, all of a sudden it's nighttime. Yeah, that's a weird moment. And then when he gives himself up for rest, it's daytime again. So it's at least 12 hours, and it feels like it's 30 minutes. As a filmmaker, I can guarantee you

that those are the spots where there was stuff in the long cut of the movie. There were scenes shot. Okay. they couldn't use them. And now their guess was nobody's really going to be bothered by this. It's what we have to do. And it turns out that's probably

true. Now you can change. So now you can color correct the sky, but you couldn't do that back then. Like now with digital color correction, you could make that problem go away and everyone would. But back then you couldn't, you were stuck. If you shot it during the day, you can't back then you couldn't make it to nighttime.

Now you can, but back then you couldn't. Next category. Could this be remade as a 10 episode Netflix show? You know, my body rejected this, obviously, immediately. But that more I thought about it, I was like, hmm, what would that, what would that look like? You said in 2021, a similar premise, somebody who was in Iraq, he's in a small town. And how would you space out those first, like, three episodes? Well, he gets fired.

You would have to have him working as, like, a short order cook. We'd have to, we'd have way more backstory, right? And he wouldn't be until, like, episode five or six when he's, he gets fired. He actually goes to war with the town. He's a short order cook in this town, and some of the tough guys in the town are being mean to, like, a waitress who works there. And he snaps, the mini snap in the first episode. Yeah. And then he looks at the boss who really liked him, who hired him at the thing, but the guy just shrugs.

Like, look, dude, you know I have to fire you. So then you cut to Rambo kind of like walking down the street to his next spot. Like Bruce Banner for the first five episodes. Yeah. Just each episode is a different location. All right. Yeah, there's some way to make it work. Probably unanswerable questions.

So Will Teasel, does he work again? What do you think? What are his next two years looking like? No, he puts in for retirement. My question about Will Teasel is, does Will Teasel, when he goes home from all this, realize that it was his fault? Right.

100% his fault. Does he know this was his fault? Does it change the way he looks? Because, you know, a great thing that they threw in, obviously, in post, is when he looks at that other guy in the neighborhood as he's driving around them first morning. It goes, hey, you know, take a shower this week. And you know, this is like something that's really on his mind is keeping everybody in his town in deodorant and hair shampoo and stuff. Because, like, hair shampoo is opposed to other shampoo. Because, like, why did he shout that to some rando in the street in his town?

Hey, take a shower. It's a weird thing. He doesn't want drifters in his town. It's a weird thing. but that guy's not, you know, but that guy he doesn't, he doesn't chase away. For me, the unanswerable question is, would Rambo have eventually blown if Will Teasel didn't push him? Because he tries hard, but he says, why are you pushing me? Yeah.

He doesn't want to blow. But do you think, does he, does this happen? Meaning, Will Teas is a bad guy, abusive, terrible guy, should have had more understanding, doesn't have a lot of empathy. But does Rambo blow regardless at some point? What do you think? I think, yeah. I think he does.

Okay. But I also think Will Teasel did 99.9% of the work in this case. But someone would have. Someone would have pushed him. It would have been like a con air type situation where he's at the bar and somebody hits on his girlfriend and he ends up killing all three guys in the parking lot and stuff like that. Because he, you know, he's a war machine. As we find out in Rambo 2 when I guess we could have put Rambo 2 in what's aged the best. and the worst.

Rainbow 2, he's just getting shot at from people who were like five feet away and just walking toward that. I mean, it's, that movie is comically bad in some parts.

I don't know if this is an unanswerable question or a knit, but it seems to me that Troutman got there very quickly. Yeah. Like, how did Troutman know? It's only been a day,

not even a day, really. It's the next morning. It's the next morning because they're still trying to, like, figure out who this guy is. They'd already sent his stuff to be looked at.

I mean, How does Troutman know exactly where to go and to enter exactly when people were trying to figure out who Rambo is? How does he know to be there then? I don't know if this is unanswerable or nitpicks, but do mountains really have caves as elaborate as the cave in that movie that he's walking through for 17 hours and then finally leads to this perfect ladder that you just go up? Like, does that normally exist? Also, if you could find his way out, why did he spend that first night? like cooking stuff and why didn't he just leave. But yes, I agree with you.

Also, where can we get, how come I've never seen anyone else in life actually wear that hat the Troutman's wearing? Have you ever seen that colonel hat anywhere else? That's like your six-year-old kid on Halloween who wants to dress up like a kernel. That was the outfit that you were. Where do you, like the trench code, like if you're coming in as the tough kernel, is that, why is that what you pick? Like, why do you pick the sort of a feat French-looking,

fucking beret colonel's hat. Two more in answerable questions. Are you a rainbow guy or a Rocky guy? Oh. Because I do feel like you have to be one or the other. I love both characters. No, you got to pick. Can I say Marion Cobretti?

No, I'm a Rocky. Come on. I mean, if you have to pick, you're a Rocky guy. I think there's a bunch of rainbow people out there. Because the Rocky Universe might be. life would be much less rich. Like the Rocky universe up through the Creed movies, like the Rocky universe really, really matters to me. Like, it's very alive to me.

And of the Rambo movies, it's only this one that I care about. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? Well, obviously, you want the knife, right? I want the knife. I want Troutman's hat. Just wear that when you're trying to write. Yeah, just to walk on set. Like, don't you think if I walked on set when

Billions is finally back after this whole thing. Like the first day I walked back on set this year. Just dressed like Troutman. I mean, shouldn't I walk in dress like Troutman? Just like, okay, everybody, here we go. Like, let's go. Who would you cast in 2021 First Blood on Netflix? Michael B. Jordan.

It's not even a conversation. Oh, I like that. It's not even a conversation. It must be Michael B. Jordan. Let's go. Rock and roll. It's Michael B. Jordan. Like, let's go make a movie.

Who is 100%. Who's Will Teasel? You know, it would be amazing. but he'd never do it. If Vin would do it, it'd be amazing. Like, Vin would be incredible because you need a tough motherfucker to play that. Or the Rock.

If the Rock wanted to be a bad guy, that would be amazing too. How about John Ham? I'd just like throwing John Ham and things. Well, no, let's just take another minute on this because there's the perfect name. Who would be the best Will Teasel? How old is Will Teasel now?

Like 52? Let's make him 50 to 55. So he has to be MAGA, right? Oh, dude, it's Russell Kruh. it's Russell Crow. That's who it is. It's Russell Crow. He's, that's, that's, that's Will Teasel is Russell Crow.

Because he's got all the stuff that you want for that part. He's big in the way you need him to be big. He'd throw it. If he decided to do it, he'd throw it around. He thinks the election got stolen? Yeah. Oh, he's, yes, of course. Yes, he's one of those guys, for sure.

Last category is who won the movie? I think it's pretty obvious. It was Slice Stallone. By a landslide. I don't even know who else would be a content. I said it made him a billion dollars long. Long run, it made Sylvester Stallum like a billion dollars. It starts a holy war between him and Schwarzenegger over the next 11 years.

And is it then Tom Cruise who takes it from them? Is Cruz the guy who then takes the sort of biggest star in the world from those two guys? I don't remember the order of how. Well, there's two different things. There's biggest star in the world and there's biggest action hero. Because that action hero belts going back and forth between those two guys. And then is it Eddie? But is it Eddie and Eddie and.

Tom Cruise or the other two at that time, if we're doing the biggest movie star? Is it those four guys? I just don't remember it as well as you do. It's Stallone, Clinton, Bert, and then we get to the mid-80s. Eddie jumps in. Cruz doesn't get there until Top Gunn.

So that's 86. Okay. And then it's all four of those guys for a while. But it's Sly Arnold and Eddie in some order for through the 80s. And then Arnold goes up a level because then he has, he does the total recall Terminator to kindergarten cop threesome in the early 90s. So right up until last action.

Slive fights back. He comes back with like cliffhanger and one other thing, Tango and Cash. But Arnold kind of grabs the belt in the 90s for about five years. But Cruz, but also Cruz is the biggest movie star

during that same period of time. Cruz takes like the Bert Reynolds. Yeah, the Bert Reynolds kind of Clint that sphere. He occupies that part. I'll tell you who else would be an amazing Will Teasel if he'd do it would be Ben Affleck. Oh, wow. Ben could really do that, right?

If Ben wanted to fucking, like, sit in that and have our justification for, hey, my job is to keep my town. I have a job here, and that's to keep my town clean. I could see Ben, because the thing about Denahey is, you could see that the people in his town probably liked him. They liked them. Yeah. You know, who do you think, though? Who do you think could be Rambo? If I'm saying it's Michael B. Jordan, who do you think it could be?

Who else? I think that they have to be black. So you agreed. I think that gives it a 2020's extra layer that it would need. Because I don't think the Vietnam War thing is going to play the same way. And people are also way more educated about PTSD and all that stuff now. So I think you would have to make it more of a racial kind of impetus for how this falls apart. The other possible Will Teasel would be Charlize.

Like if Charlize Theron wanted to be, Will Teasel. A female will... A female will... A female, Willa Tiesel. Yeah, think about Charlize. Because you need someone formidable and actiony and older

who's been through the wars because you do the war thing now, like she fought in the first Iraq war or whatever it is, like she saw some pretty tough action. You could have Charlize play Will Tiesel in a pretty compelling way, I think.

You could also just go chalk and do Costner, because he's played variations of this guy. No, Costner's Troutman. person. Kossner's Troutman. Oh, good call. Do you think he'd wear the beret? Yeah, Koster comes in there as Troutman because he trained Michael B. Jordan. He's got to come get his guy. I mean, that's, that'd be amazing to have Koster. I want to see the movie so badly. I think I might want to make it.

I got to call Levine. I think we got to try to get this thing going. All right. We're done. Brian Koppelman, pleasure is always great to see you. When does Billions come back? You know, we're going to shoot whenever we can. There's this, this, this, Pandemics of pain in the ass. Well, at least the Nix have some promise, finally. Stay safe. All right. You stay safe, too.

It was good to see you. Bye, buddy. Hey, if you love the rewatchables, you're going to really love it this week because we're coming back in two days. We're doing two this week. Second one is The Terminator. You have two days to watch it.

It's on all the streaming services. So there you go. See in two days.