The Rewatchables - ‘For Love of the Game’ With Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Mallory Rubin take the mound for their final game as they rewatch the 1999 baseball classic ‘For Love of the Game,’ starring Kevin Costner and Kelly Preston. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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slash health. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer podcast network. We've had this podcast for, I think, seven years at this point. We've done almost 350 movies. You can find a lot of them on our YouTube channel.

Ringer movies, please subscribe to that for full and partial episode. and all new episodes are going on there as well. You can also search for old episodes on Spotify and Apple, wherever you get your podcasts. Back in 2019, we did a special movie series for Luminary because we were celebrating the 20th anniversary of 1999, a really great movie year,

and we did a bunch of podcasts, rewatchables podcast about that year with a couple special categories. One of them was for love of the game. I did it with Mallory Rubin. I kind of love this movie, even though it's a flawed rewatchable, which we dive into on the podcast. But we figured since Kevin Costner's having a rough summer,

you know, we'll harken back to one of the movies that made him the sports movie goat. So this is For Love of the Game. We taped it in 2019. It's a really good pod. I gotta say, it's a good one. Me and Mallory talking Costner could do it,

could do basically his whole movieography with her. Anyway, for Love of the Game is next. Here we go. Universal Pictures presents. How do you like to be kissed? How does this work, Billy? Little boys, buy cards with your picture on them. They buy those for the gum.

For love of the game. So are you my mom's boyfriend? I'm not sure. But you've slept with her. I really have wanted to do this movie for a long time, for love of the game. It is the most flawed sports movie probably ever. It has 50 minutes of maybe the best baseball movie. ever.

Okay. And it's also being suffocated to death by a terrible rom-com. One of the worst love stories ever told. It's crammed down your throat. It's way too long. It didn't make sense at the time. And yet, it is a classic rewatchable because when you're flipping channels and you can go, oh, I'll just watch the first inning.

Right. Oh, here's the eighth inning. Oh, the ending. And you can kind of navigate around all the other stuff. My first question, should they just show this on cable and cut out all the the Kelly Preston scenes. So she wouldn't exist. It's just a baseball movie.

There's no love story at all. If there's no Jane, do we still get Heather? The masseuse? No, the child. Oh. I assume we'd get the masseuse no matter what. Sorry, you might know her as freedom. Freedom?

Is that her name? Her fake name. She's now at the orchard spa. I have a... I can't wait to talk about Bob Kraft 75 times during this podcast. Let's do it. I do think that, inarguably and irrefutably, Kelly Preston is the worst part of the movie.

Oh, my God. She's so bad. But I don't know if you have a movie without the bad part of the movie. Like, I think that even though the baseball stuff is really good and the love story is somewhere between hard-to-watch and actively repellent. depending on which moment you're consuming, it all feels like the seams on the baseball. Like it wouldn't hold together somehow without it. Like you need every one of those stitches to maintain the structural integrity of the original design. You could maybe take out 20 minutes to Kelly Preston?

You could take out a solid like 40. I think that's all there was. I wish that were true. This movie is like two hours and 15 minutes. It's really long. It's unbelievable. It's really long. And somehow there's not enough baseball, and you could have actually added more baseball and taken out the color president.

She's really bad. Not to spoil casting what-ifs, but allegedly this was supposed to be a net betting and she canceled. And I do think... That's a tough alternate history to think about. It's really brutal. It's like finding out Brady was supposed to be the QB, and instead it was Marcus Marriota. Oh, my God. This was Koster's third baseball movie.

That's right. It's a trilogy, even. I have a feeling he in a weird way regards this with the same love and respect as he did with the other two because when I did the podcast with him, you know, he really threw himself all into this. He's in his mid-40s at this point. He was pitching day after day after day after day. He told a great story on my podcast about needing a little help from the Yankees trainer. And then the last day, we're going to run that story at the end of this podcast. The last day when he really had this long shoot and he couldn't feel his shoulder anymore.

And he's like, can you give me this stuff you've never given me before? Right. The stuff you're afraid to give me. And the guy's like, sure, you're going to growl at some people. And he did, but he got through it. Hilariously, this was 1999 during like the height of the steroids era. When the Yankees had, I think Clemens was on there at that point, but had a whole bunch of suspects. So anyway, hero performance by him.

It is. And I'm sure that you're right and that the movie is very important to him. I think that's clear not only in watching the film, but in all of the stories that you here around it. Field of Dreams and Bull Durham are two of the absolute best and most important sports movies

of all time. Boulderham is my second favorite movie of all time, period. They're just in a different class. And that actually is a little bit hard to forget as a viewer. You bring your Kevin Costner

baseball movie history with you to this experience. Now, I really like the Costner baseball. ease of this film. Like, I would happily watch the five-hour extended cut of him just changing into his uniform in the locker room. And the infamous cut full frontal shower scene that I expect we'll be talking about at length. Well, did you believe that, though?

Because that when we do half-ass internet research, that seemed like 20% asked internet research. I don't know. I'm ready to discuss that. I have thoughts. You have thoughts? Well, he was a legendary. He was a legendary. healthy.

That's right. How do we get here so soon? Carrying his own Louisville slugger. Spy Magazine had a mid at its best, mid at his best photo spread with a whole bunch of pictures of, it was like Jimmy Stewart and Koster of them in like slacks and things popping. Yeah? Yeah.

So anyway, do you think that's why he wanted the photo spread? Or not the photo spread, the uncutts, scene in there? Maybe so. And get it out? He's proud. Let that horse out of the barn? The steeple of Billy Chapel's church, you know?

I loved Costner in this movie, and I love Billy Chapel. And what's funny is he actually was really criticized in this movie. He got a Golden Raspberry Award. He got a worst actor. It's tough. How does that not go to Kelly Preston? Okay, I have a theory about this. I think that that is less about this movie in particular.

and more about the moment in time for Kevin Costner when message in a bottle also existed. Oh. That's a tough movie. So it's the wrong. Wait, you're anti-Message in a bottle? One of my least favorite movies of all time. Oh, my wife loves that movie.

Now, to be fair to the movie and to Carrie, who I admire and respect, I have not seen that movie since I saw it in the theaters when it first came out, so I'd happily revisit it. When you were like 14? Yeah, well, as you know, I'm a little. For 12? Long time Kevin Kossner admirer.

13. Yeah. I've studied his career closely for quite some time. Maybe I'd feel differently about message in a bottle now, but I think most people hated that movie. And the fact that these came out so close together, it feels like it was a part of assessing his acting at the time. It was the tail end of the Koster run.

He was the biggest star in the world for a couple years there. Waterworld happened. Big comeback with Tinkup. Late 90s, he's moving into close toward, late 40s, age 50s looming around the corner it becomes harder and harder to make a movie like this

where you're a professional athlete. He's even probably three, four years too old. He's playing a guy who's 40 in this movie. It looks like he's 45, 46, but it doesn't matter because he's slinging heat. He said he threw like 85 on my podcast. That's incredible.

And I actually believe it. That's amazing. And he had a couple different arm angles. Like he was over the top. He was doing a little sidearmed. He was throwing curves. When he buckles Sam Tuttle's knees on the strikeout looking pitch.

The arm action on that throw is so fun to watch as an actual baseball fan thinking about how a pitcher changes the release point, changes the angle, what the spin is, especially when he knows it's going to hurt to do it. I did find myself thinking a lot about his repertoire and how that would have changed maybe after the hand injury, which I assume, I assume that the bulk of this podcast will be about sawing. his hand open and the full frontal scene we didn't get. But there's one moment when he's throwing a fastball. You can see the scoreboard in the back. You can catch the velocity. It's 89. And this is post-injury, post-hand injury, and we know he's also got a nailing shoulder. He's at the end. But we also know that he's saying to Gus, I'm going to throw harder here than I've thrown in quite some time. So presumably he's been giving, he's 89 is probably on the high point of what his velocity would have been in that season. So you assume he's throwing like 80s.

Well, they showed his stats. He'd thrown over 200 innings. The stats are horrible at here. 111 strikeouts and 98 walks. The strikeout to walk ratio is... I don't even know what current pitcher has that. Very concerning. Somehow his IRA was under four.

You would have thought during the steroid era, that's like a 60RA. I found myself wondering, did he change? Was he a four-seamer pitcher before? Did he change to a two-seamer when he lost some of the heat? Was it always a fastball curveball guy? Did he have a slider at some of the? other point? Did he have a cutter? I wanted to know more about what he threw and how he threw when he was great. Well, my assumption is he's basically a little Jack Morris-ish. Because they say he starts

game one of the 84 World Series. That's what Jack Morris started. He's at the tail end of his career. So it's almost like, what if Jack Morris had just stayed on the Tigers? And had been a little better. And been better. Because we hear... Jack Morris crossed with Greg Maddox, maybe. I was going to say Tom Clavin. Yeah. But Maddox would be a perfect, a perfect alt there too, because I I think the overall stat line for his career to justify the, like, he's a surefire Hall of Famer. He's a shoe in for Cooperstown framing that we get. You probably at that point in baseball history, 99, he's got to be at 300 wins, right? Well, he says he's on a date with Kelly Preston.

And he says how many years earlier. And he said he's already lost 141, which is a lot. So then you add the other five seasons. 134. So he's close to 200 losses, which means. If he was a good pitcher, he'd have to be close to 300. I feel like Vince Culley would have said that during the narration, though. Maybe.

300 game winner, Billy Chapel. He says that he's pitched 4,100 career innings. Yeah, so how many games is that? We're also in Glavenish territory there. So let's say he does six, six innings per start, 41. So it's like 650 starts. But even in this season, the bad season, when he doesn't have it anymore, he's got before entering this game, so before he throws a perfect game, which is obviously a complete game,

He's got two complete games on the resume already. I think he's going deeper than six innings in most of his starts. Right. Right. Well, he said 30 starts, 211 innings. That's actually like pretty good. He's going seven innings every start. Yeah.

So Glavin, 4,413 innings. Oh. That's a lot. That's a lot. So, 103 losses, 305 wins. I think this is a good comp. Somewhere between Jack Morris, Tom Glavin. So it's Jack Morris crossed with Tom Glavin.

but with an anaconda in his pants. That's our cup. I love it. And they look like a very handsome movie actor. He looks great. I'll save that for nitpicks about whether he needed to try this hard to find a girlfriend, Billy Chappell, most famous pictures of his era. I'm eager to discuss this. Stopping on the side of the road to pick up blondes, broken down cars.

One of my unanswerable questions is how many women is Billy Chappell slept with? So I look forward to discussing this. Okay, great. We should say directed by Sam Ramey. Yep. This movie has a really good pedigree, which I think is why people were disappointed. It had a good director.

It had a good cast. Costor, baseball, Yankee Stadium, Vince Scully. There's a lot of things going on. $46 million it made on a $50 million budget, Roger E. Rick gave it one and a half stars. And he said, quote, it's the most lugubrious and soppy love story and many a moon.

Of course, producer Craig loved it. Loved it. Maybe it's the fact that I just watched Never Been Kiss, but yeah, I did enjoy this movie. That's true. Whatever movie he watched next after Never Been Kiss is going to be great. Craig's a little lugubrious. I haven't heard that word in like 10 years. That's a good word. The kicker to the Roger Ebert review on this movie is an all-timer. Can I read it allowed to you? The ending is routine. False crisis, false dawn, real crisis, real dawn. Only a logician would wonder why two people meet in a place where either one would have the slightest reason to be. Thinking back through the movie, this line is amazing.

I cannot recall a single thing either character said that was worth hearing in its own right, apart from the requirements of the plot. No, wait, he asked her. This is backwards. It's really she asks him this, but he asks her, what if my face was all scraped off? It's basically disfigured that no arms and legs and no brass. something else can't read my handwriting. He wrote that in a review?

Would you still love me? And she replies, no, but we could still be friends. So again, he has that reverse. But still, I mean, that is just iconic. He hated this movie. That scene he mentioned is one of the worst montage scenes in the history of movies. It's a four minute. We're falling in love.

We're spilling our feelings to one another. And it just is an atrocity. It's really rough. I want to get to the categories because I think we can cover a lot of the movies through the categories. But I will say, I don't remember a movie quite like this movie where the lows are like comically, really horribly low. And the highs are pretty great. Like there's a couple moments in here that are among the best sports movie moments of any sports movie. I really believe that.

Yeah. And they're all a little buried. like little Easter eggs in a bunch of shit. And I think that's why I'm so fascinated with this movie and I keep re-watching it over and over again. Like the Mickey Hart scene when he saves the no-hitter is fucking a chill scene every time. I've seen it like 90 times. It's awesome. It's great.

And yet five minutes later, there's Kelly Preston Battener's eyelashes over dinner asking what he's feeling. Yeah. It's so weird. In that sense, it does sort of reflect the experience of being a sports fan, I guess. Like, it's very much anchored in extremes. And sometimes you're going to really loathe what you're forced to suffer through. But it's going to feel like it's worth it for the moment when it all clicks. And I kind of like that aspect of it.

Though, again, I don't really think that's the intention of it. I just think that's the very charitable read that you can choose to have if it's a movie that you enjoy returning to. It is, like you were saying before, though, a prime candidate for a re-edit. Because even if you don't change the actual structure of the movie, movie, and I think that the structure of the movie, despite the flaws of the love story, is really smart. If you just recalibrate it, and also if you recast it and you change a little bit of the dialogue, you could have an incredibly compelling movie because the basic ingredients, the basic recipe, which is sports story specifically baseball story, veteran facing his own

mortality through the lens of the end of his career. And sex and love as the catalyst that unlocks not only how he processes his career, but what the purpose of any of it really is and what the nature of achievement and human connection is, that's Bull Durham. Yeah. It's all there.

It's kind of the Bull Durham sequel. Yeah. It's just they got it like four degrees wrong. Well, all the ingredients are there. After the perfect game, and he's back in this hotel room, and he calls and shows an answer and just starts crying. It's a pretty moving scene. Yeah.

And the movie should have ended there, and instead he goes to the airport, and it goes on for another, five minutes and it's excruciating. As we've talked about when we discuss the natural infield of dreams and as I look forward to discussing with you one day when we finally do Bull Durham, the key to a great baseball movie

is the poetry and the literary flair that's injected into every second of it. This movie just doesn't have enough of that. Because it's a rom-com ultimately. But a rom-com that for inexplicably has some of the best baseball footage ever. I mean, they really like, they nail it.

They nail the Vin-Skgoi part. The VIN stuff is incredible. They nail the crowd. They nail the realism. of him. John C. Raleigh as the catchers, maybe a little shaky, but we'll get to that. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's.

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Find your season at experienceGR.com. Categories. Yes. Most rewatchable scene. Okay. The first inning's just really good when he goes out there and goes through those first three and then Sam Tuddle comes up and he's got the backstory with him and Sam Tudel moves in on him and he throws at him like,

It's just from when he's warming up and the guy's like, I'm on a bench Gus, play the other guy. He's like, no, it's just me and Gus today. All the way through, that's just really strong 10 minutes. Me and Gus, nobody else. Hope you hear me. Jesus, Billy, you tell me how to run this team? No. But today, it's me and Gus.

I never ask you any other time, okay? Good. Glad you agree. Can't argue about this right now. I've got to warm up. some great J.K. Simmons, manager Perry, action in this movie. Oh, yeah. Nominal mustache.

Tiger's fan in real life. That's right. Yeah. What I love so much about that sequence and really all of the baseball action in the movie, it is brilliant giving us direct access to his stream of conscience. Yeah. Which I should say I've not read the book. This is based on a novel.

But as I understand it, that's how the novel is structured. very much stream of conscious. Now, I don't know if that means it's like Finnegan's wake, but baseball, or if it's just that we get a lot of access to what's going through Billy's mind at a given moment in time. But knowing and seeing what he's thinking, what he's feeling, what he wants the other player to know, what he wants to withhold from his opponent, is thrilling, like the chess game that baseball fans always like to think about. And you talk about it a lot with like a manager and how you're going to manage the game. And how you're going to manage the game, but just to see what the pitcher is processing and how he's thinking in the

moments where it's, you know, don't throw, think. That stuff comes later, obviously. And then you think of like a corollary where Crash is going to say to nuke in Bull Durham, you know, don't, it's the opposite, right? And like the subtleties of when as a baseball player you need to shift into a certain gear, I just love having direct access to that stuff. It's awesome. The tunnel ad bat is probably the best example of it. And then you get the other side of it with the birchat bats because that's someone he admires and has real affection for it's like I'm going to miss you most of all scarecrow. Yeah. The tunnel stuff like what a great reason not to be a Yankee.

Oh, I want to talk about him later. So two things shouldn't have worked and worked anyway. One is that he's talking to himself on the mound the whole time, which nobody would ever do. I love it. And it works perfectly. And then the other thing is if this was in the wrong hands, and I think Costner probably had a big part of it, but this also could have gone badly just the things he was saying to

himself. Right. And it's all sounds realistic and you feel like you're in there with Greg Maddox. The first scene's good. They did a really nice job with Yankee Stadium making it seem like it was full and just kind of the magistrate of that stadium. I don't think the new ones is good personally. Yeah.

No, I agree with that. You definitely feel like you're in a cathedral and, of course, you get the VIN line at the end to that effect. The other thing that I like about getting to hear Billy Chapel talk as he's pitching is that on one hand, the movie is anchored around flashbacks. So you're getting his life story. But you're getting the wrong parts of it. So hearing the things that he says as he's pitching,

that's how you get the baseball history. Like that's how you learn about these relationships that, frankly, I think we all would have rather spent time actually seeing unfold. Like, why are he in Birch so close? Yeah. What's the heart of that bond in that relationship? It was one minute where he's moving out and they just cut away. I'm not going to carry any books.

Like, where are the pillows? So I like that we got a little bit of that in that fashion, but I wanted more of that. Second most rewatchable scene. The masseuse sequence is incredible. Literally one of the best things ever put to film. It's so good. They must have cut it out, but if you see the movie enough times, she starts working on his left leg, and he kind of looks down. And it's like, oh, this is happening.

And then the next scene is the doorbell rings. He goes down. Kelly Preston, his response is great. Yeah, I just want you to know whatever happens the next five minutes that my heart left when I saw you. It leapt in my chest, much like my boner, left off the massage table, mere hours ago. And then that girl, she comes down, she's on the second floor, the bassoos, wear a towel. That needs a hairdriar. She's in the, like, cut off t-shirt in her underwear, and she's got wet hair because she's just showered.

It's pitch perfect. He's in those hysterical pajama pants. That scene is on my list, too. The way that she's like, haven't seen you in a little while, right? So we know right away they have history. And then this is, of course, right on the tail end of Billy inviting Jane down.

Yeah. And she rejects the offer before eventually showing up. So he immediately, his instant move is to go fuck someone else. Like instant. He's a no time wasted. Professional baseball star. I love it.

It feels very true to life. Yeah. Also, true to life that he would have a masseuse in Florida that's like kind of his go-to. Absolutely. And the second, the second that he stretches out on the table and she comes in, she grabs a little lube, little ointment, a little massage ointment, and just immediately starts working her way up the leg. Like there's no subtlety about what's happening. But the cut from that shot of her hands moving up his leg to the close up of his face with his arms. behind his head and he's just like...

Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously he's... Fabulous. The happy ending and the massages. You can either get it over with the beginning and then enjoy the massage. It's a happy beginning. Or save it at the end.

He's a happy beginning guy. Billy Chappell. That was the original title for the movie. Amazing. Another rewatchable scene. Notice Kelly Preston not in any of the rewatchable scene so far. Billy realizing he has a perfect game is fucking great. He just throw whatever you.

you got, whatever's left. The boys are all here for you. We'll back you up. We'll be there. Because Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now, right this minute, because of you. You're the reason. We're not going to screw that up. We're going to be awesome for you right now. Just throw. That's a good one, yeah. And he looks at the scoreboard and stops and then Gus comes out. And this John C. Riley's really only really good scene in the movie. He's, it's complicated for him in this movie. And he was also a never been kissed, which an absolutely historically bad performance by a great actor.

He's not much better on this, but that scenes really good, though. We don't stink right now. We're going to be awesome for you. It's a nice little over the top, but it's good. My only thing with that is I know that the premise of the movie is how, distracted, Billy is, as he'll go on to say to Jane at the airport, this life achievement is unfolding and he's just thinking about her. You just think a great athlete would know he had a perfect game going.

Yeah, I think he'd know. He's 18 years into his major league pitching career. As we hear from Vin as won every award, we can assume he's a Cy Young winner based on that. He's going to be in the Hall of Fame. I think you know that maybe the one thing you haven't done is this. And I also think you realize, though there are a couple moments between innings where he, like, pulls his cap down over his eyes and like a Pearson meeting mid-inning nap. Maybe he's just a little out of it, but no one's sitting near him.

No one's sitting near him. They've moved away from him, as is a standard baseball practice when a perfect game or even a no-hitter is unfolding. He would realize that his teammates were, had shifted into that gear. I'm not totally against it. It's fine. I think you're really into it and you just kind of don't realize. Okay.

Do I think it's, do I think it would have actually happened? No. Sure. He's contemplating his existence. I think they needed it. I think they needed to do it for that scene. I actually thought it was more unrealistic that J.K. Simmons comes out after he throws a couple of balls, after he realizes he has the perfect game. And he warms the guys up.

Yes. And then he's like, I need this game, Billy. It's like, you're 64 and 97. You definitely don't need this game. Billy Chappell has a perfect game going right now. What are you doing? That was. That was bad.

That's absurd. Even before the game even starts when Billy's warming up and his manager tells him that he's going to play a different catcher. I had that for a nip-pick, yeah. Because he's... This is maybe his last game ever as a tiger? He needs the at-bats. Like, he needs to up the likelihood of getting...

Gus isn't hitting? One single in the game from your backup catcher. Are you kidding me? That was bad. The next rewatchable scene, the... I love you, Mickey Hart. I love you, Nikki Hart. So I've tweeted about this movie a couple times over the years when it's on.

And I'm always surprised how many people love this movie. They could have done a better job with the Mickey Hart catch. It still really works well. Like, it's funny. It's not like he has like a hugely important role. No. But you would have, I would have put like the best athlete possible to really make like a great catch. Yeah.

And it's kind of like he runs up, almost like the guy in the naked gun when his head's about to go over the wall. just kind of stumbles over and jumps up. But that whole scene's great. The tip to the cap and how they set it up earlier where Billy gave him the whatever and it all came around. And then J.K. Simmons, I love you, Mickey Hart. Just really great chill scene. Yeah, I love that.

And I really love the prior scene that builds up to it. The obvious Jose Cansego homage with the ball hitting Mickey on the head in the first place and then bouncing into the stands. There's no wall that's that side. of Fenway. No all that size of the Fenway, right? It's bothered me for 20 years. Yes.

There's no part of Fenway that has that well. The locker room conversation between Billy and Mickey after that, don't want them make a joke of you, don't help them make a joke you. That's a great moment. And I think that, again,

because we're missing a lot of Billy's specific baseball history, something like that is really important because it shows you why he's a good teammate. It shows me why people root for him and why someone like Gus would be tethered to him for that long or why someone like Birch would have this bond with him

where they're still going golfing together even though they're not on the same team and they're helping each other move and all this stuff. Like, he is the kind of guy who's going to make you feel like you're worth believing in. Guess that looked pretty funny out there today, huh? Probably end up on ESPN or something.

A lot of shit ends up on ESPN. I don't think it's very funny, Mick. I don't call, Mr. Chappell. There's a bunch of cameras out there right now waiting to make a joke of this, Mick. So you can either stop giving a sense. sound bite, do the dance.

You can hold your head up and walk by, and the next time we're in Boston, we'll go out there and work the wall together. Don't help make a joke out of you. By the way, that should have been the movie. Yeah. All that stuff was the movie. And the fact that Mickey Hart, they set it up earlier where he strikes out in three pitches looks terrible.

And he's clearly the dude who had the ball bounce over his head and he hasn't really made it. Probably had like a Byron Buxton type of five-to-a-prospect kind of guy who never panned out. So you drafted him five years in. I probably did. I probably drafted him. But maybe that catch turns his career around. Leaves the possibility.

Next rewatchable scene. I really love the Mickey Hart scene. The signing the baseball between the eighth and ninth innings. It's great. The whole setup of it, they really let it breathe. I love when he signs eight. We don't know what he said. The guy starts to walk away and he kind of stops and does the turn.

It's really nicely done. Yeah. brings it up to the owner's box, perfect writing, and the owner's, all really good. Tell them, I'm through. And then that leads to them running out for the ninth inning. And J.K. Simmons going, Jesus Christ. Just a really good Jesus Christ for him. And Vince Scully doing his old Vince Gully thing.

The best. We'll get to him. But that whole sequence, really nice. The ninth inning, great. Yes. Ken, Wreck it. The no-hitter. Racket is a great moment.

The no-hitter outs are getting more and more absurd. We have a guy at third baseman doing a Brooks Robinson down the line. I don't. I will quibble with the nature of the final play, the final out. Do you want to do that now? Sure. It's absurd. Omar Veskel and his prime on all kinds of PEDs couldn't have made that play.

No one makes that play. You can make it. You can't go to the ground. You can make it, but you have to stay up. Right. You can't dive. Shortstop can't dive on the second base side. Get up and gun the guy out by two.

steps. Also, like, he looks like a spry runner, right? So cast a different batter than someone who doesn't look like a fat guy. Yeah, he'd be able to maybe leg it out. But more so even than that than the improbability of what unfolds, I just think from a storytelling perspective, and maybe I'm wrong here, maybe this is just too obvious and too cliche, it just has to be a strikeout. Right. It has to be. Like, the whole movie is about this one person and this one moment and the pinnacle of achievement being totally inextricably intertwined with regret. And the nature of baseball is such a perfect vehicle for exploring that because it is, in theory, a team exercise that is so often an individual pursuit.

And it just had to be a strikeout. It just had to be. It drives me crazy. Would you have had him hits the glove and the guy's safe at first and doesn't get it? It's a good sliding doors. I kind of like that. I think it's better if you do. doesn't get it.

Yeah. That's interesting to me. I like that. But the perfect game actually happening is an incredible scene. Despite quibbling with the nature of the final out, the whole scene is amazing. I mean, the Vince Gully lines are fucking incredible in that part of the movie. Incredible. Two homers down the right field line that go foul.

Yes. Steve Lyons wisely just steps aside for the end. We hear Steve the first couple innings, and either they only paid him for one day, or they were like, hey, man, we're good. Vince Colley. We have Vince Kelly. We're good. Can you go now? You don't think he pulled his pants down on set. He might have. He did a first base that one time.

Might have. Any other rewatchables for you? I have a few. I don't think you're going to like them because they are scenes that involve Kelly Preston. They're eliminated. Let me make my case. No. Let me just try. No Kelly Preston scene is allowed to be in rewatchable.

You can put them in what stage the best. I want to nominate them as rewatchable specifically because they are engrossingly bad. Okay. Okay. Now you wouldn't be over. So there is something hypnotic about how absurd

these scenes are. I have three of them. Okay. That's great. You quickly talked me to it. Like, you just can't believe what you're saying. One, the first dinner.

Yeah. Okay. The exchange about the notebooks in her bag is so hysterical. I was laughing. I watched this last night with Adam.

And we were both laughing so hard at this part that I had to pause and rewind the movie because I realized I had missed the next few lines because I couldn't hear it. So I was laughing so hard. This one is my article on lip gloss for Elle magazine. It's just incredible. I do like the part where he is basically like, yeah, of course we count it numbers. That's all we do in baseball. That part's good. But that's a great quote.

It is. The reason that this scene will live in infamy. Yeah. is the how do you like to be kissed line. How do you like to be kissed? Yeah, that's tough. Which is... That's never been said in a movie, and there's been a lot of kissing in movies.

How do you like to be kissed is not a thing that you say to another person. I think you might say it, but I think it's at like an orgy. So if that's the thing about it is, again, it's, horrifying and so awkward, but because it's Kevin Costner saying it, I'm sorry, there's something like kind of irresistibly sexy about it. And I'm just watching it thinking, you know, the way that it plays out from there is nonsensical because she ends up holding up a piece of paper later that says yes, which is not an answer to the question that he asked in any way. Obviously, it's to the unspoken question of do you want to go home with me. But like, I just want

her or any person across the table from Kevin Costner in that moment when he says, saying, how do you like to be kissed to say, let me take my pants off right now so you can find out. Yeah. You know? Like, there's only one way to answer that. So that's one of my nominees. Do you think he should have given a toast?

Here's the happy beginnings. Probably so. Maybe that's their wedding toast. The next one, sawing open his hand. This sequence. That's an almost rewatchable sequence. It's so bad that it is. And then she doesn't get in the helicopter with him?

Not only did she not get in the helicopter. And she's somehow upset. She feels aggrieved. Well, of course she does. Because he's like, I need trainer as the most important person for me right now. Fuck you. Even though you just packed my oozing mauled maimed in snow. And in your nightgown drove me through snow bangs at risk to your own life to the hospital

and then stood in the middle of the hospital into your pajamas and shouted Isn't this America? By the way, that of all the bad Kelly Preston scenes, that's probably number one. The histrionics in that scene are absolutely... I'm guessing Annette Benning doesn't play it that way. Iconic.

And then the way that she is standing, the way, like her physical posture, her facial expression when the helicopter is pulling away, there's something like almost like, I don't want to be too mean, but there's something like gala mask about it. You feel like you're looking at like Smeagle become Ghal and Lord of the Rings and like she's like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, my precious.

It's just unbelievable. I could watch it 50 times in a row and never get tired of it. And then my last one, the fight that they have, when he smashes all of her makeup, horrible scene, awful. But the way that he's, she's like, her whole point hinges on the fact that he can't drive himself. Yeah. And then he says so stoically, so seriously. I'll hire somebody to drive me. I just think for the unintentional comedy of that moment alone,

you have to nominate that scene. It's pretty good. It's a really good case. Now, we should mention Kelly Preston that you did a nice job. It was pretty hot coming out of Jerry McGuire. Yeah, of course. That was what, three or so she gets for love of the game two years later. I think she might have had a kid at some point,

so it wasn't acting for a year or something. But really had momentum. And she was somebody, the kids from my generation, she was like a god to us. She was the best-looking young actress of the 80s. Yeah, beautiful woman. She was secret admirer. She was in mischief.

And it was always one of the, her and Sharon Stone were the two where it's like, why aren't these people bigger stars? What are they doing? What's Hollywood doing? She can't act. And, you know, it turned out to be a problem. It's great looking, though.

I mean, she was really great looking. Gorgeous. Also seems very sweet. So going into this movie, it wasn't really apparent that she wasn't maybe a great actress. Right, but you find out immediately. The first scene. You know, you find out. I mean, that park scene to start is like, what is happening?

She married John Chavolta, but her husband before that, you a heat fan? Sure. She was married to Wain Grow. Oh, my God. Yeah. For how long? For a couple years, I think. Wayne Grove.

Oh, I wish Chris Ryan were here right now. I had to get it on, man. So I say for most rewatchable, I really like the Mickey Hart scene. That's probably like, that's just going to get me every time. I think the first inning is really, really underrated, though. The same title of bat is awesome.

It's great. I'm going to go with the ninth inning, sealing the perfect game, mostly on the strength of, Vin and the commentary on baseball history. Yeah. Which I love. Great Vince Gully.

What stage the best? Clear the mechanism. I still use this. Great. That's great. So good. Sam Tuttle. All of it.

Sam Tuttle, the perfect Yankees villain. The fucking asshole. Everything I wanted from this particular character. And then, if I didn't hate him enough, bunted to try to break up the perfect game. What a cock move. the fucking dick. Oh my God. What a coward.

If we had the internet in 1999 like it is now, he would be like, oh, he would have been destroyed. We're a jerk. Violating the unwritten rules. Perfect game. You can't lay a button down there. You just can't. You can't.

What's age the best? Brian Cox, John C. Riley and J.K. Simmons. Brian Cox, who would become Logan Roy, 20 years later, playing the Tiger's owner, seems almost like a different person. Oh, yeah. Completely. but really we should mention with J.K. Simmons

so this is the height of Oz which was a show probably a little before your time but it was a big prison show and really pushed the envelope and he played Vern Schillinger who is Nazi like what's that

Aryan what am I saying Aryan? Aryan you like Aryan Brotherhood? Yeah brotherhood guy Thanks Craig I'm not that guy

from succession. No, you know, Greg was ready to supply that for you, wasn't it? You know, in prison, they have the skinhead groups. And he was like the lead one.

Right. And had this whole kind of crazy relationship with this guy Beecher who he ended up like, there was like a big Beecher rape. And this guy was like an evil, Hitler loving rapist, basically. Right. And then in this movie,

it's like, hey, he's your good nature manager with Tiger's mustache. Incredible range for J.K. Simmons. In the movie, seeing in the theater, it was like, oh my God, that Schillinger. He's the manager?

Like, it was inconceivable. He could ever be another movie. Now he's been in a bunch of movies. What's age the best? Bob Seager's Against the Wind. Really nice use of it. Such a great song. Wonderful.

Seems like yesterday. Good music in this movie. But it was long ago. Yankee Stadium was great. Yes. Vince Gully. I mean, this is... So, is this movie even released

if it doesn't have Vince Scully? He single-handedly takes the baseball scenes from a B to an A plus. That's a great question. Like, imagine if this was Tom Bresnahan and Steve Lyons. Oh, my God. That's a great question. Sean McDonough and Steve Lyons.

Or just anybody in Steve Lyons. Craig and Steve Lyons. Wow. That's really interesting. He really makes it. He's so good. It's everything you'd ever want to know about Vince Scully. It comes out in this movie.

He's absolutely. I mean, I have something about him in basically almost every category, you know, best quote, half-ass internet research, but I love the fact. So he did this interview with the LA Times in, right when the movie was coming out. And one of the questions was about how much freedom he had with his lines. And like he, I guess you never, you never know really what is true and what is apocryphal with stuff like this. But it sounds like he had a lot of freedom to basically amend his lines of dialogue. I think he just ad-lived. Yeah.

Because that's what he does when he did baseball. games. Like, he could just do everything. I mean, and he's called multiple perfect games in real life. Yeah, he drops the Don Larson card. He does drop the Don Larson card. That's like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's pretty good. He's such a flex. I love it. He's absolutely

outstanding in this. I just put this next one in for you for what it says your best. Shirtless Costner. I know that meant a lot to you. It's important to me. I think we have Costa as a baseball player aging the best, and then Costner in various states of

undress aging the best. The moment when he's changing in the locker room. And you get, you know, first you get the tidy, whitey shock, he's taking off his hands. And then you think, oh, is it over already? Because he sits down and he's continuing to change, but he's still wearing his, his

button down. And then, no, it doesn't. It's not over yet, Bill. It's not. It continues. He takes off his shirt. It's just the perfect spattering of chest hair. It looks fabulous. Still. Great dad bodd action on him. And you think then is it done? But it's not, because then he picks up his glove and he smells it so sensually like he's smelling a woman

and then he takes his hand and he licks it and then he's rubbing the glove and it's just so overtly sensual and sexual I find it invigorating to watch. He has the glove, how would you like me to lick you? Yeah, how do you like to be kissed? It's funny because they really they really push his sexuality side

And Kelly Preston is treated like she's Amish in this movie? See, I don't even think we see her in anything that remotely resembles being sexy. And I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know if she had just been pregnant or like there were there was some sort of card. They were afraid to play with her because she'd been naked her whole career. Like that was part of her card. That's interesting. You know, we get the moment where she says kind of the opposite, which is like, I don't like to wear sexy underwear.

It's not comfortable. She's sort of deliberately portraying her sexuality in a different way. And I actually kind of like that. Because I think that, again, I wish, you know, we get the masseuse. I wish we had learned a little bit more about Billy's sexual exploits beyond that. But you can, you can assume, you know, especially because of her anxiety, the way she keeps bringing up the idea of a groupie. And he says later how much that bothers her. That he's just like regularly sleeping with all of these women and that she is supposed to be a little bit different from the type that he normally goes for.

And so I think that's. Stale and boring? The one time she looks great is the art museum scene when she's got like the different boyfriend It's like, oh yeah, you're smoking hot Why aren't we taking advantage of this in this movie? I think she looks good at all movie Well, she got outflanked by the masseuse

The masseuse was like a 10 to one underdog in that matchup Another one age the best I love his relationship with Scarecrow It's good. It's really nicely done. It's not too much of it. It makes sense. It's a baseball theme that's like a real theme of like small market team.

And this guy, quote unquote, sold out. But he really didn't because he's like, that's my family right there. Early player empowerment. How many money do we need? Yeah. Well, it was great. A lot. I like that guy too.

He was very chilly Davis-ish. And his name was Davis something. Birch. Right. Yeah. But it had like a very chilly Davis-ish vibe. I like the autograph scene for what's age the best when he's arguing with Kelly Press on the sidewalk

and a couple people are coming up to him and he's just signing for them as he's in conversation. People, they always mangle autograph scenes and TV and movies. And that was like actually how it goes where you just have these people gawking at them and he's got to deal with that but he's really like trying to make this point to her and he's like, ah shit, I got a sign.

I like how they did that. That's funny. I kind of had it as like a what's age the worst because it's just hard in the digital age to allow yourself to think that that could play out that way. But we could put that in What Stage is the Worst? I think it's both. But I think that's what it was like in 1999, though. You wouldn't have a private conversation like that with your fans.

Somebody would be like holding their phone. Right. That's on TMZ 16 minutes later. John C. Rallies, we don't stink right now, speech I kind of enjoyed. And then that's all I got. Any other What's Age is the Best for you? A couple more small ones. Yankee fans sucking and being asked.

Absolutely, an all-time theme that we should return to for eternity. Yankee fans are losers in this. The hecklers at the stadium are, you know, caricatures, but it's very amusing. The airport bar guy, though. Save him, we're getting to. Quietly, I think, so you could see Gus's stats on the jumbo. You could? I was looking for that.

What were they? He's hitting 184, Bill. Oh. And I'm going to throw this out there. I'm going to throw this out there as a sudden. what's aged the best, I think that Gus and the Tigers were early in the pitch framing value movement. Oh, wow.

Despite, don't worry about Perry wanting to sub them out in this game for someone who can hit. Let's not think about that. Let's ignore that. He's out there. Earned regular playing time, despite hitting 184, must be a good framer. Call in a good game. I like that. Gus Sinski, ahead of his time.

I think that... By the way, we should mention... I keep saying we should mention, I'm doing a podcast. It doesn't necessarily seem like John C. Raleigh was catching any of these balls from Costner. Yeah. They had a couple close-ups that was clearly like the close-up of John C. Rowley catching, but it was a clear stunt double that whole game, I feel like. I think that's fair. That's reasonable.

I allow him to not be the person actually receiving high 80s fast balls from Costner or his body double. The arrangement that Billy and Jane initially have that one end up blowing up in their faces, I like, as we talked about a few minutes ago, the honesty about Billy being a dog and what his sexual appetite would have been like. You think Verlander said that to Kate Upton? That sounded perfect.

Maybe, you know? That just felt very true to life to me, so I liked that. And then lastly, again, even though the love story is so painful, I do think that the flashback structure as a storytelling mechanism is smart and has aged well. And it's, I would rather have that than a narrator. Yeah. I'm anti-narrator, unless it's for the Shoshanic redemption. My favorite movie of all time.

A great one. A great one. What's age the worst? Oh, we didn't do. So what did age the best? I'm going to say clear the mechanism. It's, I really want to say it's Vince Gully, but I just, I have to be true to myself and say, Kastner.

as a ball player. Okay. Love it. Love it. Wood's age the worst. Kelly Preston, I described her in a column five years ago as a one-woman movie momentum tsunami. Oh, my. Yeah.

Wow. She's really bad. What's age the worst? He stalks her at one point? I have that on here. He's just standing in the rain, staring at her through a window. Like, what's happening? Not only.

You're a Hall of Famer? You can get laid by anyone? What do you do? I wrote this down as Billy watching Jane fuck Ian through her window. There are two silhouettes behind the drapes. She's in there with a man. That is aged the worst. Terrible.

The weird daughter runaway plot in Boston? Awful. It's awful. My daughter's missing. She's in Boston. She can't get in. You have to go there. Most of my nipis are about that.

It's like what? Who's giving out Billy Chappell's direct line at the stadium? Can I call right now for her? judge and get them on the phone? Should I save my nitpicks about that scene or raise them here? Save them. Save them. Then the experience of J.K. Simmons as Vern Schillinger is age the worst, just because

now he's J.K. Simmons. It was much more fun to watch this movie when he was a crazy rapist. What shortstop could have made that last play for the 27th out, Omar Visckel, Ozzie Smith? Yeah. You go in any middle infielder here? Any infielder period? Oh, you say you say Robbie Elmer? I was just thinking a shortstop.

It's one of the great plays anyone's ever made in a baseball game, and somehow the guy's still up by three steps. It should have been closer. The play of first half. It should have been like a half step. Bad job by Ken. I don't think he makes the Yankees. Oh, no way.

They're like, what the fuck, dude? The ball hit the pitcher's mitt. He's going to double A immediately. It bounced ten times. The shortstop came across. Dove and threw you up by three steps. He's not on the playoff roster after that. Any other what's aged the worst?

The obvious one is cutting the full frontal, just a terrible decision. That is a miscarriage of justice and a crime against humanity. If they hadn't cut it, you would probably own this movie in Blu-ray DVD and on Amazon streaming.

Yeah, I'd always have a copy of it on my iTunes or Amazon to boot up anytime I needed to look. The New York Mag write up on this that has the quotes from the studio executive, one of the quotes is, do we really need to see Kevin Costner's penis? And the answer to that question is yes, we do. I don't understand. What are you talking about? Of course. Another what's

age the worst, I would love for you to tell me. I really, really would love for you to tell me that I'm wrong about this and that I'm misinterpreting what happened here. Please tell me I'm wrong. I've never wanted to be wrong so badly. The players on the airplane holding up numbers when Billy brings Heather on the plane, are they joking about how young she is and pretending that he's dating her? Oh, what were the numbers? It was like 16, 13, 11. Oh, that was how I perceived that again. I would love to be wrong.

I hope I'm wrong. If that's what that is, that has not aged well. Well, I think they're making statutory rape jokes, but know that she's, that it's not a thing. I think that's just baseball yuck, yuck stuff. Not aged well. Not aged well. I enjoyed it. Billy threatening to murder,

to murder Jane on the end of the phone call fight. Tough. He's like, wow, when I don't want to kill you, just a little light murder threat at the end of a phone call. Tough. OJ was still in the ether, late 90s. You thought maybe he could get away with it like OJ did. Oh my God.

And you know what? Because Bill, I love baseball. And on the heels of our recent argument about Mike Trout and what an MVP is. I feel that Brian Cox, owner Gary Wheeler's curmudgeonly speech and lament

about the sad state of baseball and how the modern movement has ruined the game has aged poorly. Because I think progress is a good thing. I have thoughts on that in the later category. What's age to worst? The answer is Kelly Preston.

Casting what ifs. Annette Benning. Almost played Kelly Preston. That's age to worse too because God forbid that happened. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner.

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aka the Joey Pants Award. I don't even know who is Sam Tuddle in this movie, but he's a good that guy. I've seen him in other stuff. Michael Papa John? Papa John?

I looked this up because he was my pick too. Spider-Man, the longest yard. Jurassic World. Also, apparently, actually a baseball player, I think. What a coward bunting in a perfect game. Jesus. How about Dominic Lombardozzi, the tow truck guy, Herc from the Wire?

Oh, yeah, and the guy from Entourage. Yeah, the Deuce, Boardwalk Empire, Ray Donovan, all of them. That's a better one. Let's go with that. Because he's, he, that's a great that guy. The Saul Rubeneck, they knew award for most egregious overacting. This is easy. Yeah, Yankee fan in the bar.

Oh, you're going Kelly Preston? It's got to be Kelly Preston. I mean, the Yankee fan in the bar is a great pick also. that character does not need to be in the movie. You can't smoke in a bar, now you can't talk either. I have no idea what movie he's in, but it's not the movie I wanted to watch. It's brutal. I don't understand the point.

He yells that the guy was safe when he was three steps out on the last thing. It's like, this guy's just an annoying jackass. The way that he shouts, oh, this guy's a bum when, like, at that point, 80 people are around him sharing the kind of beautiful, uniting experience. An incredible airport sports experience. That's experience that you, if you're lucky, you get like three times in your life when something brings you together with your fellow man. And he's just like, this guy's a bum. You have any peanuts? Very tough.

You could have cut out all of the airport scenes and just had Kelly Preston walking to the gate, decided not to go. Yeah. And watching it. And then cut to her one other time just praying for the last one. And this is the same movie actually better. Better yet. Have her board the flight, go to London, and never be heard from again. They should have a deleted scene.

When we see him in his beautiful brown outer coat and his bag, and we realize he's going to find the masseuse after all that time. Yeah, I wish he ended up with the masseuse. The reason that it's Kelly Preston, though, in addition to everything you've already outlined, the opening scene is so spectacularly bad that that alone would be enough to carry it, but the hospital scene, which we've already discussed, but the speech. What do you think the rest of that speech is? could imagine her shouting absolutely anything in that moment.

It's like the antithesis of any great baseball movie speech. Like, have you never shucked a peanut on the third baseline? Like, it just is so ridiculous. Nobody knows he's a baseball player. The only way it made sense is if he was so annoyed by how she was yelling that he's just like, can you just let me bleed to death? I just want to die. Just kill me.

Half-ass internet research. Oh, Dan Waiter's Award. I forgot. Oh, man. Who'd you have for Dan Waiter's Award? So this was tough, but I had two picks. One, I think you can make the case for J.K. Simmons. So that's who I picked.

The mustache, the way he's chewing. He's got, like, a little bit of a Terry Francona. Like, you don't know what's in his mouth. You just know that it's probably some combination of, like, foul, gum, tobacco, seeds. Maybe he'll give a press conference one day and say he found a, tooth inside of it, that kind of vibe. And then I feel less sure of this pick, but I think you can make a case for Jenna Malone, Heather, the kid.

The moment when she says, so are you my mom's boyfriend on the plane and he says, I'm not sure. And then she replies, but you've slept with her? Like, anytime you're in a movie and you basically say, but you've fucked my mom, you're automatically in the running for the Dionne Waiters Award. That's one of my rules. I think it's a very fair candidate. And I also would say, after this movie, I thought she was going to be a really good actress.

I know. Her career didn't match the promise of this thing. But I agree. I thought she's good. I would vote for JK, but that's a good runner-up. The next category, half-ass internet research. I got to be honest, I really didn't do a lot of research for this one. I have a few. I've done most of them already, but I have a few I can run through. Not sure how much we need to do. The on the full frontal scene again, so it's supposed to be a shower scene where you see Kevin Koster's penis again for reasons that remain unclear to me. This is not in the movie. So there are conflicting reports about why. One of the stories is that the studio wanted to maintain the PG-13 rating.

The other story is that it tested poorly with audiences. Again, in that New York mag piece, the studio exec was quoted as saying, the audience giggled at Kevin's penis. I just refuse to believe that that's true. I refuse to believe that that's true. Giggled because it was smaller than they thought it was going to be. That's the implication here. Or it was bigger than they expected. Maybe.

Like maybe it was like nervous giggling. Maybe. Maybe. Like you think you're going to buy a regular hot dog and then you realize you can get the foot and a halfer for just an extra buck. You want to cotton candy, but you ask him to spin it for another 30. seconds in the machine, fatten that up. And Costner was reportedly furious about them cutting the scene. So that tells me it was healthy.

It gets got to be. Says that the studio lacked, quote, real courage. Well, if he really cared about it, he would have leaked it to some magazine or website. I know. So good. A few other things. I don't know if these are true. Costner wanted Vin to be the announcer.

That was. I saw all these. Here's the thing about the Half Fester Internet Researcher this movie. It's not a meaningful enough movie to even have stories. And I feel like people make some of the stuff up. Almost all of them about this movie

are about real baseball figures playing baseball figures in the movie, which is not super interesting, I guess. Yeah, like this dude who barely was a major leaguer for more than four years was the pitching coach. I like the idea

that Kossner has to convince George Steinbrenner to let them use Yankee Stadium because Steinbrener didn't like the idea of the Yankees losing in the movie. That one's kind of fun. Yeah, that's a good one. Plus, it was during an era when the Yankees were pretty dominant.

Yes. This was during their four and five years run. They did win the pennant that year. Yeah. Of course. This isn't really like half-hast research. This is just a fact. But a little nugget that I do like

is that Billy at one point is reading the Killer Angels. He's got books in his hand at a few different points. He's reading The Killer Angels, and that, of course, is written by Michael Shara, who won a Pulitzer for it. And he is the author who wrote the novel in which this movie is based. style is like when there's like a little nod to the creator.

I do think they put a lot of time and thought and energy into this movie, which is what makes it so crazy that they miss the Kelly Preston scene so badly. It's tough. Do you think they have any chemistry together? I think Costner can have chemistry with whoever. He can have chemistry with anyone. I was looking for the name of the masseuse, but I can't find it. Do you have the name?

I don't, no. Yeah. I think he can flip the switch. We saw it at the Grantland Party. He could have just waved over Any woman at the party And it was over Any anyone at the party

Yeah Pickin' Nits Oh we got to do Apex Mountain No one, right? Can I make the case for Vince Gully? You can, I'm prepared to refute it Go ahead. I was ready for this.

I'm ready. I'm not saying he's done some unbelievable baseball games Incredible career Yeah But all of those baseball games Have come and gone They're just buried either, you know, on MLB classic games or whatever.

This movie became the best ongoing evidence of how fucking awesome Vince Scully was. It's just on cable all the time and be like, oh, man, I love Vince Gully. So I don't know if in the moment it was his Apex Mountain, but it's become as Apex Mountain. It's like the last document for how fucking awesome Vince Gulley was because he doesn't announce it anymore. I think that while that is a... compelling argument. Thank you. I can refute it easily.

First of all, as you yourself said, nobody watched this movie. Right. It made no money. But it's been on cable forever. And I'm sure nobody watches it when it's on cable. Because it's not very good. No, that's not true. No, because it's always on cable and they wouldn't put it on cable unless people are watching it.

So I do think people are watching it. They're just filling like a three-hour time block. But you can do that with any movie. They put movies on that people watch. Then, in addition to having such a long and storied career, has enjoyed the modern media digital renaissance. So he's been reborn in the internet age. You can easily get a clip of him of any call, any famous call, our top 10 list. You're going to have a Twitter thread with all of his best calls, an MLB playlist, any of it.

You can get it all at any time you're going to see a highlight of historic play. You're going to hear him. That's the voice they're going to choose. So he is actually one of the voices of baseball history in real life. And as people move away from the game and away from caring about anything but either their own team or their own fantasy team, a figure like Vince Gully becomes such a rare thing that... Why are you trying to sell me on Vince Gulley? I'm with you.

What does this have to do with Apex Mountain? Because the real moments that he has to have more power than the bullshit in the movie. But what moment, what moment though? Well, 1999. he's at the peak of his powers. He's still, like, he's aged into the old guy. He's still way better than anyone who's doing it. He's already called all these great games.

So if you're just a kid today, you're probably going to say him, like, naming Kershaw's Curfball Public Enemy Number One, something really hip and fun like that. But here are just a handful of some of the calls he's responsible for. The Kofax Perfect Game. Sandy Kofax, whose name will always remind you of strikeouts, did it with a flourish. He struck out the last six consecutive batters when he wrote his name in capital letters in the record book, The K stands out more than the OVX. Local game. Nobody saw it.

We didn't have a sports setter back then. Don Larson's perfect game. That's good. I'll accept Don Larson. Do you know what he said about Yankee Stadium? Do you know how he described it? He said it was shivering in its concrete foundation. That is like biblical.

That's incredible. He called Kirk Gibson's Dodgers 88 World Series game one home run in a year that has been so improbably, the impossible has happened. Wouldn't you say he caught on the radio? But it's his voice. I know. Hank Aaron breaking Babe Ruth's home run record. If you're going baseball moment, I think it's got to be

Gibson's Homer in game one. Incredible. So he's responsible for some of the handful of most important moments in actual baseball history. Just has to matter more. He's calling the Mickey Hartcatchers. It was really great. Pick of Nits. Billy's stats, 30 starts, 8 and 11, 355 ERA, 211 innings pitched. 98 walks, 111 strikeouts.

Yeah. I just can't figure out the ERA with the other totals there. And also the 30 starts 2-11 innings, but only two complete games, is just mystifying? The strikeout to walk ratio is the thing that I'm hung up on here. So he's just seven innings every game. There's no nine-inning game, and then he never gets shelled in a game. It's just seven innings. It's very puzzling.

This goes back to how the ringer should be a sports consultant for all sports movies, where we could have been like, hey, man, fix those numbers. Tigers were 64 and 97 And yet J.K. Simmons is approaching this game. Like things might turn around if they get a win. It's ridiculous. Ridiculous. The high numbers on the Yankee jerseys?

Oh, yeah. That's a good one. It's like number 60, number 68, number 72. It's like terrible. John C. Riley running around the bases. Yeah. Just go wide shot with the stunt double. He rounds third base

Like he's on ice It's tough It's brutal Gus So Sorry I'm sniffling Are you sick? Do you have a cold?

I'm a little sick Oh my God Oh no It's starting at the ringer Fall colds God damn it Chappell spent 19 years with the Tigers

18 Right This was his 19th season He had 10 5 rights I have this down This is This is actually an unforgivable. Unforgivable. You cannot.

I want to trade you the Giants. Too bad. I have my 10-5 rights. You cannot. That scene's over. Anchor the plot of the movie to a looming trade that he could veto. He has a no trade clause. He has the 10-5. It doesn't make any sense. Awful. Such a bad job by them. It makes a bad job. And then I just think the movie should have ended when he was crying in his hotel room. Instead of having him go after her? Yeah.

Because you don't, you want to leave it open to the imagination whether or not he does or because you don't want him to. Better any. Sad instead of happy, though. As I told you, I would have had him not get the perfect game and I would have had him crying in this hotel room. And I would have had Kelly Preston in Russia or wherever the fuck she went, meeting some dude named Vlad within a day. In your ideal version of the movie, you know how she makes that joke about the plane crashing when the person at the help desk tells her that it's delayed because of the mechanicalist. and she affects a terrible British accent for a second there to mock her

and says that you don't want to make the crash. Do you want the plane to crash in your ideal version of the movie? No, I want her to land in Russia and then some Russian guy asks her how she likes to be kissed and it works the second time. Played crash on her bed. Any other picketts? Got a feel.

So we talked earlier about the Boston daughter rescue scene. On what planet? In what universe? What a mother who is so panicked about her runaway daughter's state of safety and well-being make a joke in the middle of that conversation? She says when he asks what her name is, freedom. And he says, freedom? And she says, scared you, didn't I? It's Heather.

What is that? That is weird. You're calling him. Your ex, by the way. You're not together. this moment in the movie. Yeah, you dumped him after the happy beginning. You are estranged, but you are in such a state of terror over your child's wellbeing that

you call your ex. And you make a joke about your kid's name. It's ludicrous. Also, Heather, freedom, is not in any random city. She's in Boston where her father lives. Are we really supposed to believe that Jane would not know. anybody else in the city where her baby daddy lives that she could call instead of a guy she's not actually seeing anymore?

It's a problem. That's ridiculous. Also, the hand scar. I'm really hung up on this. This was a career-threatening injury, okay? Yeah, it should have been... He had to be medevac to another hospital because this was such a severe wound. It looks like a really bad paper cut.

the scar. It's like maybe three quarters of an inch. one I have from New Year's Eve, 1993. I just... Opening a champagne bottle. Yeah. His hand is... I didn't have to be medevac to the hospital that night. His hand needs to be like a ruin after what happened. So that's a knit. I actually would have gone with the finger dangling.

Oh, but then he can't come back from that. Can he? He shouldn't have come back from this other thing. He said he couldn't feel the baseball. It's true. It's true. Gus, you mentioned Gus. Gus Sinsky. wearing a tiger hat in a New York hotel. Yeah.

It is ridiculous. Gus was like borderline brain damaged. Like the concussion protocol wasn't an existence back then? He plays him like he's got like a 72 IQ. Why would he be wearing

the hat of his teeth? Even when he goes to bed, when he passes out at the end, he gives him a water and he's just like, You're the cream in my coffee. I thought about that sequence too because his fingers are in the water. Like he's going to piss his pants in that bed for sure. Billy's like, what a great friend.

You left your buddy with a glass of water that he's going to spill all over him. Great job. Why did he pour it into a glass instead of just handling him the plastic bottle? Just put it on the nightstand next to him. He's going to pass out. I'm so hung up on that. It doesn't make any sense. And how is he that much drunker than Billy?

I don't know. I don't know. It's so weird. the while I agree with you that in general the Yankee Stadium stuff is great and the crowd stuff is great and the overhead shot that we get right before the game not a sellout I don't buy it

they're going for a pennant clinching win and they didn't make enough fuss about the pennant clinching win yeah I don't throw in the line of Steve Lyons being like wow if they don't get this I don't buy that at all I was confused by the sequence where Billy is eating

bread and milk in a glass Is that a thing people do? I don't know. Maybe it is. I'd love to learn more. Same person who asks of how they like to be kissed. Anything's on the table with that guy. That's really strange.

I also just don't buy that Jane wouldn't have just gone for some goodbye sex at the hotel before heading to London. I just don't buy it. Because she was a completely non-sexual person. But sex was a huge part of their relationship. Was it? Yeah.

We never saw her in anything less than 10 pounds of clothes. They hook up the first night and she gives her whole, I don't screw like that speech. And then, of course, there's the iconic discovery of the flashlight in her bed that he thinks is a vibrator. Oh, we get a lot of the sex movie. They fuck in her apartment with her kid like three feet away. The masseuse stayed in his life was my takeaway.

Even if they got married, the masseuse is still getting called twice a year. I believe it. My last nitpick is just that, you know, we're allowed to believe many times from the opening montage onward that Billy's father played a really meaningful role in his life. Yeah. When he is describing his father to Jane, one of the two descriptions that he gives, two of his father, two, to show how much this man meant to him is that he was, quote, very tall. Like, I know Billy Chapel's not a poet, but come on, my guy.

That was tough. I found the masseuse's name. What is it? It was Laura Cayoiet. K-O-Yet. It's been a lot of stuff. Big, long IMDB. Like, IMD-X?

IMD-B-Read? Regular old IMDB. That's great. Good for her. Best quote. I like Sam Tuddle. I can't think of a better reason not to be Yankee. Sam Tuddle.

I can't think of a better reason not to be a Yankee. That's a great one. We count everything in baseball God. That's all we do. Give me two more. We don't really need to list 20 quotes. There are very many good quotes for this movie, candidly. My picket would be a Vince Gully line.

And you know, Steve, you get the feeling that Billy Chappell isn't pitching against left-handers, isn't pitching against pinch hitters, he isn't pitching against the Yankee. He's pitching against time. He's pitching against the future, against age, and even when you think about his career against endings. And tonight, I think he might be able to use that achy mold on. arm one more time to push the sun back up in the sky and give us one more day of summer. That's beautiful.

That is chill-inducing. What's the line about the chapel and the cathedral? Billy Chapel has pitched a perfect game. The cathedral at a Yankee Stadium belongs to a chapel. I don't like that one, actually. He forces that one, but I still like it. I don't like that one. I'm pro.

All right. What else? What are other good quotes? You mean it doubles as a flashlight? The vibrator joke, very funny. I enjoy that one. That was good. We've already gone way too long on this movie.

Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? No. Please no. That'd be more Kelly Preston. If it was a 10-episode Netflix series, we'd have to get like literally three full episodes that were just Jane presenting increasingly horrific scenarios for the would you still love me if.

Oh, God. What if I had three nostrils of? Probably in answerable questions. How many pitches did Billy throw in that game? I'm going to say like 120. He had 9Ks, only 27 batters. A lot of long counts. Interesting.

He's like 120 to 122, I'm guessing. His arm's about to fall off. Yeah. It's pretty high. I like that. That's an interesting one. What are his career stats? We already kind of did that.

I think he was a 300-game winner and Vince Gowie forgot to tell us. Had to be. So Brian Cox, he says, I was going to leave the team to my kids, but they don't even like baseball. Everything's changed, Billy. The players, the fans, TV rights, arbitration isn't the same.

The game stinks. I agree with you, Brian Cox. Come on. Great call. You called it. It's 20 years ahead of his time. The Tiger's owner of this movie, Gary. How's this an unanswerable question?

It's not. I just want to make you mad. The unanswerable part is when did you lose your mind about realizing that progress in baseball was a good thing? I think he saw everything that was coming. He should have been like, Billy, in the future, baseball is going to be localized. And we're going to give the MVP to a guy who's on a 73-win team.

It's going to suck. Get out now. How many times when you were re-watching it, did you find yourself wanting him to just reach over to Billy? You know, we see in the newspaper headline, I'm going to tell him his father, I'm going to take care of him like his own son. You know, they're very close. Didn't you want him to just grab his head and say, you're my number one boy? That would have been great. Logan Roy.

Oh, man. Who won the movie? You could make a case for Vince Gaw. I'm just going to say it. My two picks were Costner or Vince Scully. And I guess it's tough to argue for Costner, given how much he took for it. But I just love him unapologetically. I just do.

I love him as well. And I think the fact that he had to take PEDs to keep going just to give a good enough performance. He wins it. But honorable mention of Vince Gully. It's a great Vince Gulley. How many women do you think Billy slept with? We didn't get to do that for unanswerable questions. Oh, that's a good one.

Thousands. How many thousands? Thousands. He's playing for 19 years. And he is famous. He's on the word for six months plus spring training, which is a boondoggle. Spring training is just a free-for-all. The way that he engages in that initial deal-making conversation with Jane,

it's very clear that he has setups everywhere he goes, right? Yeah. Obviously. So that's actually an argument for keeping the number down. That's what professional sports is actually really like. Yeah. Yeah. When you're pulling over on the side of the road to help some lady that's car isn't working, you're just a walking boner.

How do you think he sawed his hand open? Do you think he was thinking about the masseuse and got distracted? Failed to clear the mechanism? That was a borderline nipick to me. If I'm pitching, I'm not doing anything that's jeopardizing my hands. It's tough. And I'm like, hey, you know what? I'm not going to have near my hands a saw.

That's up there with like burning yourself, ironing your shirt with the shirt on or tripping over the deer meat that you were carrying. Well, Craig, did we change your mind on this movie being great? You still love it? I'm a sucker for baseball movies. They just get me. I like it. So are we. But did you see the love story in the movie?

Preston's tough. Who would you recast? Could you recast somebody that would be better? Well, Annette Benny would have been really good. That was a good point in her career. That would have been great. I think you could recast with literally almost anyone. Yeah, how about any actress in 1999?

You guys also didn't do the 1999 award. Oh, what was the most 19-19? 1999 thing about this movie. Damn, I forgot. Good call, Craig. I think it's John C. Riley playing a Game Boy Color in the bus. I had this as an unanswerable question.

Was what game is he playing on the Game Boy? I consulted my husband Adam, who's a video game enthusiast, and he thought that the most likely thing was Pokemon, which had come out in 98. It was a big thing. I like to think that Gus is a Mario guy. Maybe a Kirby guy, like a purist, a Game Boy Purist.

So 99 was really full-scale all like Madden and all those types Like all the sports games I don't know I don't know if that rang 1999 to me The Game Boy? What other elements of it are 99? The Tidy Whites very 99 I expect to see a man

An athlete of Billy Chappell's Stature and Calibur wearing a form fitting black pair of boxer briefs Not tidy whities So that felt very 99 to me There was no internet in this movie, which felt 99 to me. Yeah. I think if they do it differently, instead of the magazine pieces, maybe they're running blog posts.

She must have a cell phone, right? Because she calls the tow truck from her busted rental car. So there's some technology. Actually, I know what rang the most 1999, that people love baseball. That's tough. Tough look for baseball. That Billy Chappell could have actually been a star that people recognized at airports. That you could shout, is this not America in a hospital?

Because baseball is so important and people would listen. They'd make this movie now with Mike Trout walking through the airport and nobody recognizing him. Now be it. For love of the game. Tell them we're through, Bill. All right, that's it for the podcast. We're coming back with a brand new one on Monday night.

And I'll give you a hint. It's a movie directed by James Cameron. I'm not going to tell you which one, but you've probably seen it a few times. So there you go. This podcast was produced by Craig Horlebeck. Again, go to Ringer Movies, our YouTube channel, subscribe, and you'll get full episodes, partial episodes, all kinds of stuff.

But that's it. Enjoy the weekend. See you here on Monday.