The Rewatchables - ‘Groundhog Day’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Issa Rae

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and actress and writer Issa Rae tell us if we can expect six more weeks of winter or an early spring by rewatching the 1993 classic ‘Groundhog Day’ starring Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the rewatchables is brought to you by State Farm. Around here, we love talking about movies that we watch, rewatch, watch again, because they're that good. It's the thoughtful details, the little thing. So the movies don't have to keep us coming back. Here's the deal. When it comes to insurance, we can't get enough for State Farm. They have all the details.

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We're also brought to you by the ringer.com and the ringer podcast network where we just created another new podcast exclusive for Spotify called TV concierge. A little 12 to 15 minute breaks down. of TV shows, seasons, new upcoming shows. I'm going to be on there this week, breaking down, defending Jacob, a new Apple Plus show that is just horrible and enjoyable as well.

It's enjoyably horrible. So I'll explain why this week. So go check that out. And speaking of podcast, behind the billions, we kind of relaunched our recapables feed with this. We found Brian Coppillman and David Levine, two guys who know a little bit about billions since they created it and they run the show. So it's a little bit of a director's commentary of them talking about billions.

Speaking of TV, we have a special guest on this episode of the rewatchables, Issa Ray. And if you're not familiar with her work, first of all, you should be ashamed. Second of all, Insecure, which is her show. And it's fantastic. And might be my wife's single favorite show. It is on HBO. You can catch up on all the episodes on HBO.

or the HBO on demand, however you get your HBO. So it's an awesome show. I highly recommend it. And it's great to have her on. So here we go. Coming up. Phil?

Phil? Groundhog Day. It's next. Columbia Pictures presents, I may be having a problem. Bill Murray. I'm reliving the same day. Over and over.

In a story about a weather map whose living life worked like there's no tomorrow. Don't drive angry because there isn't. I am an immortal. I have been stabbed, shot, frozen, electrocuted. Your God. I'm a God.

I'm a god. I'm not the God. Groundhog Day, rated PG at Theaters Friday. All right, Groundhog Day. Sean Fantasy is here. Special guest for at least the first two-thirds of this podcast, Issa Ray. You picked this movie. Why did you pick this movie? Man, this is my comfort movie.

It's the movie that, you know, anytime it was. on like TBS or TNT, whatever it was. I was sitting and watch it. I've loved it since the third grade and it's relevant as fuck right now. Sean, it's the ultimate pandemic movie. Every day is Groundhog Day. I had no idea. I had no idea.

It made me feel really bad about myself though because I'm not pursuing any self-improvement right now. Wait, was this your first time seeing it? No, no, no. I've seen it many times, but I don't think I ever realized just what a, you know, just how bad it can make you feel if you're not trying to teach yourself the piano right now. How many times are we going to get this chance to be trapped with this much time on our hands? And at least Bill Murray's character puts it to good use. I don't know what I'm doing

with it. Yeah, that's true. I mean, he had a long way to go. So he started out real dickish at the beginning. So he, yeah, he had a journey. So we had agreed to do this probably like two weeks ago. And then the Atlantic wrote a whole piece about it probably like four or five days ago talking about how It's become the ultimate pandemic movie. Oh my God, I missed that. Yeah, and how everybody is kind of in Groundhog Day and you just kind of, you don't know if it's Wednesday or Saturday. And you're just wearing jogging pants and, you know, you barely see anyone and how this became the perfect movie for that. And I hadn't realized that until I read the piece.

Then when I watched it last night, and I was like, this makes sense. Now I need to read the piece, but, I mean, we have consequences. obviously. I mean, this is a dream scenario to like, if I could live life this way and keep repeating a day that I fucked up, like, that's ideal. That's ideal. And then, you know, it's like, it's like it would be like a game. Like you'd level up to the next day. And, you know, I think for someone like me who always, like it's terrible with comebacks or procrastinates, like I would have those opportunities to just chill until I get it right. Sean, is this one of the most ripped off movies of the last 30 years? You know, I was talking about this with someone last night. I feel like this idea has now moved firmly into the TV area, and I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but we usually do a category in the show called Could This Work as a 10-episode Netflix series.

And there already has been a Netflix series that uses this exact idea. And, I mean, it's so reusable because it lets us stay with the same characters and see the same experiences so we don't feel out of sorts. We don't feel like we're missing some sort of timeline. So many TV shows get so caught up in having five plots going at once. This is just the most easily refillable idea you could ever have. So, you know, you can't blame people for wanting to use it now and again. I mean, my daughter who watches every rom-com and every teen drama, there was, there's even a teen movie.

I fucked with that teen movie. So I was like, why do I like this so much? And it was because of the Groundhog Day element. And there's horror movie too. What's that one? They made two of them. Happy death day. Yeah.

And then they made the sequel and it just gets ripped off time and time again. Interesting moment of Bill Murray's career. So he goes from obviously Ghostbusters is might be the most successful comedy ever in 1984. Right. Then he kind of tails off a little bit. It starts doing like he makes Razor's Edge. But from 88 to 93, he makes sense. Scrooged, which I think, I don't know where people stand on that.

I'm not a huge fan, but I think it did well. Was Scrooge before or after Groundhounds Day? Oh, it's five years four. Yeah, so it's 1988. Does Ghostbusters 2? Does Quick Change? And then it's like, all right, what is Bill Murray going to be like as a 90s movie star? And then he figures it out.

It is, what about Bob in 91? It is Groundhog Day in 93. And I actually think, would you say Groundhog Day or Ghostbusters? will outlive him as a movie. Groundhog Day hands down just because of, you know, I think Groundhog Day, one, stands the test of time where graphics are concerned. I feel like Ghostbusters is going to suffer from CGI,

and I haven't rewatch that as much. And Groundhog Day is a feel good movie. And I would say, like hearing that Scrooge was before this, feels like Scrooge really laid the foundation for his role in, in Groundhog Day. Yeah. What do you think, Sean? Yeah, that's a really good point.

I feel like you couldn't have this movie without Scrooge. The high concept comedy that has really human stakes and doesn't feel as crazy as the premise seems on paper. You know, the idea for both of these movies is so bizarre and so high concept. But you're always just kind of with, you're always just with Phil Connors. Like when he's an asshole, you're with him. When he's evolving as a human, you're with him. Like, this is a real. guy, even though it's totally absurd. So I definitely think it's Groundhog Day. I think the other

reason it's Groundhog Day, too, is because there's this whole culture of philosophy and analysis that has grown up around this movie. I mean, this movie is taught in postdoctoral thesis classes. You know, it's a, it's Buddhists have adopted this movie because of what it means to their spirituality. Like, it is a, if you choose to see it this way, it's a very, very deep movie. Now, I don't think that that's the kind of movie they set out to make, but it's so adaptable to, to, different people's different points of view. And that means it has a chance to live for a long time. You know, I got to say, watching it again last night,

especially the parts when it gets dark when he has like his little suicide run, things like that. And it's really well made. And I do wonder, like Harold Ramis was talented enough that I do wonder if that spiritual side of it was one of the reasons he wanted to do it in the first place. In research, it does seem like it was one of the appeals. What would happen, you know, if you just had the same chance over and over again to just get better at life. And when would you break?

And even when the writer Danny, I think his name is Danny Rubin, they adopted the five stages of grief. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. As the premise of it. So when you think about that, so maybe this movie, Issa, a little more spiritual than maybe it got credit for in 1993. Yeah, I think that's what struck me about the rewatch specifically was having experienced those stages myself of grief. Like, I didn't go through a suicide run. But going through this, like I had my bout of depression two weeks ago where it really set in that, oh, we're stuck in this. And, you know, I identified with that.

And I think to Sean's point, I think right now I'm, I started in the stage of productivity, like, oh, I'm going to be able to finish all the projects that I didn't do. And I think now I'm back at that stage just because I see an ending point. But it is more personal as opposed to initially when it started was just like busy, busy be, you know, just vapid work. And so I think that spiritual elements I have yet to tap into. But I think that this movie watching was my kind of therapeutic moment. And I felt in touch with something new during this phase. What was your stage where you punched Ned in the face?

Did you punch any? Let me tell you. Lots of arguments have gone down during this pandemic, for sure. I'm going to give you my brief history with Bill Murray. Please. So I turned 50 this year. Saturn at Live, which I did not watch the first couple of years because I was too young. But I think like the fourth season, they started running the greatest hits episodes in normal time.

And that was so it was this fourth year, the last year of Belushi, but that was when they ran the sketches. And it was like, they're just running like cheeseburger, all that stuff. So I started watching it season five. And that was after Belushi and Eckroy left. Bill Murray was like the only star on the show, male star on the show at this point. He's in every sketch. So he's kind of like, all right, that's my guy. And then he's in Caddyshack, which was, I think, one of the first R-rated movies I ever saw.

Then he's in Stripes. Then he's in Ghostbusters. And he was just like this icon. And then, you know, he kind of tailed off there in the 80s for a couple years. And it kind of missed him. And I think he had to figure out what his Bill Murray in his 40s kind of movie on-screen character was like. And he figures it out.

And what about Bob and Groundhog Day? but then has this other section with Lost in Translation, which I feel like has to, when you consider the whole Bill Murray, like the arc of him in movies and Lost in Translations, the last piece. Because I actually,

Sean, should he have won the Oscar that year? I forget who won instead. I don't remember losing that in the category that year. It was Oscar worthy though, right? Yeah, I always thought his Oscar snub was Rushmore. Thank you.

That's what I was trying to think of, Groundhog Day is, I mean, one of the reasons why Groundhog Day is so important is, I think if you're, if you're like me, if you're in your mid-30s, Bill Murray's introduced to you as Dr. Peter Vankman. He's like, he's the guy from Ghostbusters. Wisecracking, cool, gets the girl, very funny, very slick, a lot of side comments. And then over time, you basically like watch him evolve into a slightly more dramatic actor. And he doesn't do it right away. He takes his time and he takes on these like hybrid movies. What about Bob? and Quick Change and Groundhog Day, the movies you're talking about, Bill, those are hybrid movies. Those are dromedies. They're effective, high-concept dromedies. And then over time he gets, he starts working with Tim Burton. He starts working with Wes Anderson. He starts working with Sophia Coppola, Jim Jarmish.

He starts working with all these much more high-minded, sophisticated indie filmmakers. But he still has that, like, that ineffable Bill Murrayness. You know, he has like a presence as an actor and as a comedian that only he can do. and he makes you feel safe because he reminds you of the 70s and the 80s. But you can see him kind of changing over time, too, as a performer. Like, I think that he doesn't really get to that place if he doesn't do this movie, which is one of the reasons why it's such a huge movie for me personally. Because he's really like, he's one of my guys.

I have season tickets to him, as you would say, Bill. Right, right. Well, it's interesting. So many comedians try to figure out the drama side eventually. Because you have a shelf life when you're a comic. He, I think, has probably navigated it. the best. But I'm sure, Issa, that must be something you think about in your career, right?

Because you're in this comedy that's really funny, but you're not just going to do comedies for the next 40 years of your life. You want to try to do different things. Like, do you think about that stuff at all, career-wise? All the time, especially just, you know, as I write, you know, I think my experience, I think comedy is rooted in everything that I do. And I think, you know, obviously Bill Murray also brings humor to every single role. I think that's just a,

a natural part of him and I think that's the way of life. But I think about that frequently of just, you know, how to get to that level. And, you know, I obviously want to train and do my best to make it feel real. But his career is definitely a blueprint in that sense. Yeah. And there was also a cult of Bill Murray off the screen that starts to build in the 90s. The legend of Bill Murray. Yeah.

And really kicks in, I would say, late 90s into the 2000s where, and it was weird. It was early internet. But it was like people would have these Bill Murray stories. And you would never know what was urban legend, what was real? Or it was like, yeah, my friend lives in Chicago. They're having a party and Bill Murray showed up. But was there until five in the morning. We're like, what?

That can't be true. But then what was the piece? Was it GQ? They ran the piece where it was like all these. different anecdotes of Bill Murray crashing into people's lives, then it became a book. But it really was happening that whole time. It wasn't urban legend. He would just kind of wander into people's lives.

That sounds exactly like he did in the movie. It felt like that movie changed his life, honestly. I think that that because I also think about filming that movie was a groundhogs day. Like I think about the mechanics and the grid of how they would have had to shoot that. And if they're shooting in one location, you're doing that scene. a bigillion times and you're doing it for that specific, you know, arc a a bigillion times. You're doing multiple takes to get it right for that specific art a million times. And so like you're living that constantly, scene by scene day by day. Like every piece,

every set piece was its own 12 hour, 15 hour day that you're reliving. And I love that about it too. Well, I was watching it last night wondering, you know, like they filmed the Ned Ryerson scene. Did they just film all of them in one day? Or did they decide? In the research, I couldn't find the answer. They had to have. I mean, I guess to save money, they would have had to do that. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I never read anything. 2004 Oscars for the 2003 movie year. That was the Lord of the Rings year, Sean. A weird one. But nobody, no Lord of the Rings actor is one best picture, though, right? Who won best, or one best actor. You know who did?

Sean Penn, Mystic River. Oh, I see. Is that my daughter in there? I don't know. After 17 years, I think there's a Bill Murray case. I was never 100% happy with Sean Penn's Boston accent being from Boston. I was like 80% there, but there was like a twinge of New York in it. So, I don't know.

Let's talk about some interesting behind the scenes stuff with this movie. Drama. That didn't really start to come out until the 2000s. Tell me everything. Bill Murray having marital problems at the time. Who was he married to? Somebody that he got divorced from finally in 1996. A citizen.

A citizen. A non-famous person. Okay. So he was just kind of unraveling a little bit and apparently it was obsessing about the film but acting belligerently on the set. So Harold Ramos said, he told the New Yorker, quote, at times Bill was just irrationally mean and unavailable. He's constantly late.

What I'd want to say to him is just what we tell our children. You don't have to throw tantrums to get what you want. Just say what you want. So apparently he would call Harold Ramos constantly. A lot of times early hour in the morning. And eventually Ramos sent writer Danny Rubin to sit with Murray and kind of be the Murray whisper, which made Murray upset. And then they had a bunch of arguments, including one where,

Cordon Ramis' daughter, he uncharacteristically lost his temper, grabbed Bill Murray by the collar, and shoved him against a wall. They ended up not speaking for 21 years after this movie came out. And there's this famous New Yorker profile written about Harold Ramis. And Bill Murray, the writer calls him and says, hey, can you talk about this? And he's like, let me think about it. And he calls him a week later. He's like, yeah, I'm not going to participate. But then near the end, when he gets sick, Bill Murray, that kind of rallies back and I think they made up.

No. Why are you ruining this for me? So he was the dick the entire time. He was the talent, like on set. I think it part personal life, but probably part, as you said earlier, like filming this movie must have been really weird and hard. I think all of it maybe drove him. Sean, how much were you aware of that until really? recently. Not until 30 minutes ago when I read the Wikipedia page for Groundhog Day before we started

recording. And I was blown away. I seem to remember there being a story about this right after Harold Ramis passed and people talking about, you know, the way that his life and Murray's life intersected and this partnership that they had. And I didn't realize that they had grown apart, but they had mentioned that he can't, they sort of reunited near the end of Ramis's life. But I didn't realize it was because of Groundhog Day, which is so shocking when you think about what this movie is about and the way that it's reckoning with the idea of loss and how to use the time you have wisely and what it means to build a relationship and to be bigger than yourself. Like, those are the big core ideas in the movie and the fact that they fell out after.

I mean, these are the dudes from Stripes, you know, like they really did a lot of work together. And it's really sad that that happened. It's honestly kind of shocking. It almost feels like it's absent of self-awareness for this to be the place where that thing happened. But it might be because of exactly what Eisa said, though. It might be because doing a movie like this would be so, like, emotionally and intellectually hard, so difficult to, like, just do the same thing over and over again, to be having

these conversations all the time, to be, like, examining some of this stuff. Murray obviously was going through some shit in his life. But maybe he just pushed Ramos too far with how much he wanted to explore it. Well, I wonder if there was also, because a couple of people have said this, that Harold Ramos was so important to Bill Murray's movie career. Almost every big thing that he was in, Harold Ramos was involved with, and that Murray started to resent the insinuation that, oh, he needs this guy. Is that conceivable to you if you're a star,

but your best stuff is always with one director that eventually you'd want to break away from that? I think there's, of course, I mean, on the ego side, you'd want to see what you can do on your own, especially if people make comments like that where, you know, you should essentially be grateful to someone for your work. I am of the mind that if you do great work with someone, keep on working with them. But of course, naturally, you're going to want to spread your wings and see what you can do on your own. But the resentment, I mean, it's Hollywood. If people, if you hear it enough, if people are amplified, everything feels amplified. So I'm sure some resentment was built up as a result of that. How would you work,

Bill Murray into insecure if he said, hey, I love the show I want in. Work me into an arc. We are very cautious of celebrity cameos because, like, it's Bill Murray. You're going to point that. You're not going to see any character that he does. But that's a lot of pressure. Come on. If he called, you wouldn't at least have a writer's room session, try to figure it out?

We would, for sure, try to figure out. Oh, you know what? He would be in our show within a show. We do shows within a show every season, and he would be a perfect guest for that because all of the insecure cast would undoubtedly watch whatever bill is in. So $15 million budget for this movie made $70.9 million. Every time in the rewatchables, we try to figure out what Roger Ebert thought, because sometimes he nailed it and other times it's atrocious. This time, controversial performance by Raj, three stars initially. 12 years later circles back and was like, I miss this.

Upset to four stars and writes, tomorrow will come whether or not it's always February 2nd. All we can do about it is be the best person we know how to be. The good news is we can learn to be better people. There's a moment when Phil tells Rita, when you stand in the snow, you look like an angel. The point is not that he has come to love Rita. It is that he has learned to see the angel.

Raj. Okay, Roger. Raj. dialing it up, but Sean, how do you feel about I missed that last review? Give me a do-over. This actually was a four-star movie. I don't know if I agree with that. So most of the time, I think this is kind of a cheap move to be like, oh, I screwed up. I actually have to correct the record. This one is forgivable for a lot of reasons. One, it's basically the premise of the movie. Rewatching the movie is the premise of the movies.

Two, I think all of us would agree that the more times you watch this movie, movie, the deeper it seems, the more it seems like is there than we originally got. I think a lot of people went into the movie expecting a kind of silly Bill Murray movie. And so they almost treated it that way. You know, they didn't really, they treated it as like a romantic comedy. Ultimately, that's where it ends up at the end when he and Andy McDowell get together. But if you watch it over and over again, it gives you more. So if, if Raj needed to watch it over and again to get more, I think that's only a good thing in this case. There's also the unfairness of comedies. Like to your point, being kind of tinged with this idea that they can't be taken seriously,

that they can't be held to the same level as dramatic movies. And I think there was a dismissal there early on to say, oh, it's Bill Murray being Bill Murray. He's being funny, you know, as opposed to looking at the writing and the amazing directing and I guess the overall construct of the film. And that's, you know, the Oscars are really the only way we have to assess the impact of a movie year to year.

And this is a big thing for William Goldman, one of my favorite writers, one of Sean's favorite writers. he would write about the movie industry and just be like, why do comedies just get the shaft? Like, he thought there's something about Mary should have been a best film nominee for 97. He was like,

that was one of the best five movies of the year. You can't tell me differently. Why don't we recognize this? And I think Groundhog Day is a good example of the rewatchability of it, I think is when people realized it was great. I remember seeing this in the theater in Massachusetts

and thinking it was really, good. I didn't think it would be a movie we'd still be talking about 27 years later. I think there's certain comedies that just the nuances of it, there's a rhythm to it. And after a couple times, they're like, oh, shit. You know, whereas a drama, I think, hits you the way the first time is going to be probably the most powerful. All right. So we do some categories. And then you have to go, Issa. We have 20 minutes here. We may be able to get some stuff done. Let's do it.

Actually, I'll have one more thing. I was going to save this for the end for probably unanswerable questions. Let's do it now. How long was Phil Conner's there? The big question. Everyone, I answered this in a mailbag on ESPN.com in like 2002. And I think I fucked it up. I said 27 months.

There's no way it was only 27 months. I really, it was a huge miss by me. Harold Ramos says, initially he said 10 years on the DVD. Damn. Then he told her report. Porter, I think the 10-year estimate is too short. It takes at least 10 years to get good at anything and allot him for the downtime and misguided years he spent.

It had to be more like 30 or 40 years. So I'm going to say 18 years. I thought about it last night. That's my final answer. What do you guys say? What do you think, Issa? I mean, to get good at piano, which is what I'm, like, he was killing that piano. He's like Ray Charles at the end of this movie.

Yeah. I guess I'm just going to go slightly above Bill and say. 20. All right. So 18 to 20. Sean, what do you have? Well, the Buddhists say it's 10,000 years because that's how long it takes your spirit to be reborn.

I'll go slightly under that. I'll say 32 years. 32 years? 10,000 years? That's what they say. Damn. So he starts, like, he starts trying to win Andy McDowell over. That's got to be at least six, seven months.

He becomes the press. That's insane. No, six seven months? No, I'm saying the first time he tries to win her over. Then he becomes depressed. He probably spends another three, four months trying to kill himself. It just doesn't work. And then, you know, when he starts like learning different languages, how to be an ice sculptor, how to play the piano.

You could tell me that was 60 years. Like, how long does it take to learn a language? My mom's been taking French for seven years and can barely speak it. So I don't know. I don't know the answer. I wish there was an answer. I wish somebody who made the movie had just come out and be like, oh yeah,

it was 38 years. We've talked about it on the set. I think it's because they changed it. You know, I think Ramos changed his answer a bunch of times and that confused people. Like, and it sounded like the studio wanted the filmmakers to say, oh, it was two months.

That way, like, audiences could deal with the, like, the shape, the scope of the story. But the filmmakers didn't want to do that, but they also didn't want to settle on a time. So Ramos says 10 years on the commentary. And then a few years later, he's like, actually, it was more like three decades. And then the co-screenwriter is like,

actually, I was thinking more like a hundred years. Like, and nobody really lands on an answer, which is part of what makes it such a fun movie. It's like a great movie to debate in that way. It also makes me, it always makes me wonder, what is the one thing that I would spend the most amount of time on? Like, do you guys have one thing that you want to conquer in a circumstance like this?

I thought the piano was a smart, choice. Musical instrument for sure. Yeah, musical instrument, I think, would be my move. What would you, what would you say, Issa? Ice sculpture? Absolutely not. I hate the sound of ice sculpture would not be on my list.

Definitely not. Yeah, piano would definitely be on my list. I was also intrigued by the bank robbing scheme. I mean, it wasn't a bank robbery. It was like stealing money. But I think I would just try a hand at crime just to see what I'm good at. They said in the research, they did talk Ramos. and the writer talked about how dark do you want to get?

Did you want to have torture, murder? Like how, and they decided there was a line they didn't want to cross so it could have. That's wise. I don't think it would have rewatchability. You know, I was already very hesitant in the parts where he was taking those two drunk guys along. And I'm like, these are their lives. Like, you know, now they have to die in this dimension. You're cool.

But whatever, whatever scenario this is, they're done. All right. Most rewatchable scene. I'm going to give you a bunch of. choices. And if I missed anything, throw it in. First one, Phil wakes up on the second day and it's the same day and he's wondering what the fuck is going on. Morning. I'll have to see the groundhog. Yeah? I think it'll be an early spring. Didn't we do this yesterday? I don't know what you mean. Don't mess with me, poor job. What day is this?

second groundhog day it's really good bill murray in this in this whole stretch where he's just kind of like am i imagining this and then he kind of you can see him being like maybe yesterday didn't happen and i dream that but then he starts realizing oh all these same am i having deja vu just how he's navigating that i i think they do a good job um the next one ironically you should just mention this the uh when he goes drunk driving with the two-town I'm not going to live by their rules anymore. I notice that. You make choices and deal it with him.

I actually like how he just snaps and he screams. I'm not going to live by their rules anymore. And he's just, he's driving on the train tracks and ready to fight the police because he doesn't know how to handle it. But isn't that just the third day? I think it's like the fourth day. At the end of the third or fourth day to snap like that is, this is already a pretty damaged dude is my takeaway from that. That he's taking those dudes lives in their hands, you know, it's crazy.

And even on the second day, I was very impressed with how prescient he was, you know, when he goes by the door and he's like 100% chance of departure tomorrow. And then the second day, he was like 80, 90, whatever it was. I was like, you know already. So, yeah. Next one is when he really starts flipping around. He kisses the lady in the breakfast place, the old lady. He punches Ned Ryerson in the face.

Phil Connors, Ned. He eats a 200-pound breakfast with a bunch of desserts, just horrifies anything to be that. Don't you worry about cholesterol, lung cancer, love handles? I don't worry about anything anymore. What makes you so special? Everybody worries about something. That's exactly what makes me so special.

I don't even have to floss. That part's really funny. That's my dream scene. And I tried that cake move when I was in the fourth grade. Didn't work out. Didn't work out for me. I almost choked. I'll try it again.

That might be happening for me in the pandemic at some point. I'm going to snap and just have 12 different desserts. I've had a few bad nights like that. A few dark times digging in the pastry crates. Next scene is when this is really the first time he realizes he kind of likes Andy McDowell. Now, he might not have a lot of options since he's living the same day for 40 years. But when she's telling him all the things she wants in a man, He's kind, sensitive, and gentle.

He's not afraid to cry in front of me. This is a man we're talking about, right? That whole scene is just really good. Next one would be the first... What's Andy McDowell's name in this movie? I'm just... I have... Rita. Rita. All right, sorry.

I'm just going to call her Andy. The first Andy McDowell-Fill date that actually goes well where they have the snowball fight. And the kids are whipping the, in the research, it said, Harold Ramos told the kids to whip the snowballs at Murray because he's kind of mad at him. So if you watch the scene, like, those kids are like throwing fastballs. Murray's getting mad and like whipping them back. Did Rita actually fall? That was my, because it seemed like it was intense and it felt like she tripped.

I think she tripped. And then he says, I'm just amazed how you can start a day with one expectation and end up with something completely different. And she says that and he says, no, actually, actually it's not going to be that different. You couldn't plan a day like this. Well, he actually could. He has all this knowledge now and he's figuring out basically how to craft the perfect date, which is something in real life nobody's ever figured out the perfect date. If you ask me what my most perfect date was, I would have no idea.

The most perfect date is not perfect. It's just kind of happens. It's imperfect. Yeah. I mean, Tarita, this was like a rant. It was one day where in the morning she thought he was the biggest dig in the world and then, oh, we just hung out. But it still seems improbable. I'll wait for that. That's some of the best art, though, is usually how imperfect the dates are. Absolutely. I mean, that's certainly one of the themes of your show, right? It's nothing ever goes that well. Nothing ever goes the way you thought it was going to go. And everything's flawed. Everyone and everything is flawed. Next scene I have is Phil getting every jeopardy answer right. What are the finger lakes? Jim.

What are the finger lakes? Correct. The South American Lake brings into the smaller lake. What is Titicaca? Followed by this whole sequence, this by the way is my personal choice. He gets every Jeopardy answer right. The people are just stunned. He's snapping on camera about, I wrote Surly Phil about Groundhog Day.

He's just laying into how awful it is. Everybody's horrified. This is pitiful. A thousand people freezing their butts off waiting to worship a rat. What a hype. They used to mean something in this town. They used to pull the hog out and they used to eat it. You're hypocrites.

All of you. And then it's the sequence of him destroyed the alarm clock. Day after day. He's just beating the hell out of it. I like that version of Darkville. And then, you know, I got to say like when he finally loses it and he has the run of suicide attempts, the movie making is really good in that stretch. And I'm not sure Harold Ramos gets enough credit for how good of a director he was.

Like that, like the movie shifts tone, which is really hard to do in a, you know, a not so like comedy. But all of a sudden it becomes like a drama for three, four, minutes there. It's that scene when he's on the tower and he just drumps and everything's filmed really well. I just thought that part's really good. And then the ending obviously when he wakes up and she's there would be the other scene. Anything I missed? Just about that scene that you were just talking about, Bill, I feel like one of the best parts about it is the movie basically transitions from him attempting to seduce Rita and learn everything about her and perfect their potential relationship. and then at some point he gets too aggressive and too impatient and it goes awry.

And then we get that montage of him getting slapped in the face, which is cut to that music perfectly. And then it transitions into this deep depression, which leads to all these suicides. And I totally agree with you. Like it's very, very well done and very carefully told. You know, like you could see a world in which they shot the movie and they thought they might have had something different on their hands. It doesn't necessarily feel like that segment of the movie was specifically on the page. and they kind of found it by shooting like tons of different scenarios

for his character to be. And I don't know if that's actually the case, but it is like a feat of movie making to be able to go quickly from smarmy asshole in the first 30 minutes of the movie to romance, like real romantic comedy, romance, you know, where he's like orders the vermouth and, you know, recites French poetry

and he starts trying to find all these little ticks in Rita to just like one of the, is this like one of the darkest, evocations of suicide, like in a mainstream movie. There's not a lot of examples of something like this. And it's all in this little 25-minute package in the movie. It's pretty incredible. Any additional thoughts there, Issa?

Yeah, I have to say, like, that, that, I mean, the efforts to help, you know, the homeless man. I think for me, always stood out to me and just, you know, his conclusion that no matter how hard he tried, like, this was inevitable. This part of this man's journey was inevitable. And I felt like that was also dark and, you know, obviously fueled his depression as well. But this movie, I think what also makes it so effective specifically is the fun and games portion. Like it is, you know, in thinking about the construction of a movie for the Save the Catway, like you have an entire movie dedicated to fun and games for the most part except for that stretch. But it's just so enjoyable to watch that over and over again.

So I'd say that my favorite part has to be to watch him learn and wise up and, and, you know, be the better person. And Ned getting punched in the face. Every time. Every time. Ned? Perfect. Sean, what do you have for most rewatchable? I guess I'll just, I'll go with the, like, the transition from light to dark and the groundhog heist.

I feel like we didn't really talk about the, the stealing of the groundhog, but that's also a great sequence. That's a good one. I'm going to skip ahead to casting what ifs here just because I think this is important. Harold Ramos, who do you think he originally wanted for this role? It wasn't Bill Murray. Think of the time, 1993. Eddie Murphy? Tom Hanks.

Oh, Eddie Murphy would have been. Tom Hanks would have been great. I mean, Bill Murray is great. But Tom Hanks would have been. I knew Hanks was up for it, but you clicked something with Eddie Murphy. That would have been really interesting too right around this time. What is this time? Like boomerang time?

What's 1993 for Eddie? It is like. Two years after boomerang, yeah. Or one year after boomerang. So Harold Ramos decided Hanks was too nice. And then the other guy who turned it down was Michael Keaton. He thought the idea was too confusing. And then really regretted it ended up being in multiplicity with Harold Ramos and Andy McDowell.

She was like, talk about picking the wrong horse. Wow. The Eddie Murphy thing is a fascinating one, though. I wonder if by 93, I don't feel like he would have wanted to be this part. But I think in the late 80s, he absolutely would have wanted to be this part. Like mid late 80s, I think he would have done it. By 93, after Boomerang, he'd kind of shifted into that, I'm going to be a good guy. Yeah, I'm going to be a good guy, serious actor.

My kids are going to see these movies. Oh, that's right. He does nutty professor pretty soon after this, right? Yeah. But I think like 1990 range This would have been a really, really good Eddie Murphy And he definitely would have brought a different energy to it Nadi professor was this art

It was the reverse of this arc I feel like he would have killed Grand Honte Because he was a dick, you know When he became hot, he was this dick person Yeah But yeah That's interesting Eddie Murphy and I think Michael Keaton actually would have been really good

I think he could have navigated the whole The dick parts The Smarmy Assall part followed by the the being, but Bill Murray ended up being perfect. There's one of the weird casting, what if,

Andy McDowell, for some reason, almost didn't get the role because they were going to give it to Tori Amos. That's the choice. And then they decided to play it safe with Andy.

But there was a whole Toriamos groundswell, who, as far as I know, has never actually been in a movie. Well, wasn't this, was Andy's big break? Or what had Andy done before this?

San Amos Fire. Oh, well, just kidding. But that was like eight years earlier. I think sex lies in videotape is probably Sex Lides of videotape is a big breakthrough. Yeah, yeah. But that's a few years before this, and she hadn't really done a ton of romantic comedies,

and then she kind of just becomes a romantic comedy star. You know, Four Weddings and a funeral comes shortly after this, and that becomes, like, her lane for a minute. I have, we're moving to what stage the best. I have her in what stage the best. I think she's really good in this movie, and I'm not. sure who else I would have wanted in this role because she can't overpower Bill Murray.

She's got to, she's almost like got to be a prop, right? She's got to be sweet. And I don't know if I would have wanted somebody to try to do more in the role than her. What do you think, Issa? I strongly disagree. Let's hear it. I felt that way since, since watching it. I always felt like, you know, she's cool, but she just felt I wanted someone to be able to play

off of Bill a little bit more. and re-watching it now. She's like I always toast to world peace and then you, like she's not the catch. Like I was so irritated by how. Oh, that's great. You know, like, who do you think you are, girl? She was just almost too, too pristine in a way where it felt like I wanted him to crack her and bring her down. You know, and I hate saying that because obviously women empowerment, but she was, she was annoying as well.

felt a little bit like a female character written by a man for the record. Thank you. That's what it felt like. And this is no, in no way, a reflection of Andy McDow. It was just the character felt like not a prize. So I thought,

I thought that character was intentionally pristine. But it wasn't in a healing way, I guess. It didn't feel, it didn't feel real to me. I think you're both right. Like, I feel like she is. I think she's hot. It worked for me.

Is she, though? She had some crazy, like, you know, I know it's the early 90s, but she's got some 80s hair. There's just a lot of, it's what I grew up with. All right. Why, who would you have cast instead, Sean? Not Tori Amos. Susan Sarandon. All right. You're right.

Wow. You think about this movie with Susan Sarandon. That's fair. You know, putting a little mustard on the fastball back to Bill Murray. playing off each other, you know, the age is right. You could buy her as a TV producer as like an ambitious young woman. I don't know. That just, I would, Susan Serenna in the early 90s is my favorite too.

But she always feels older to me. I mean, I love that. But I can't imagine her Andy McDowell's age and not looking. Yeah, in 93, I think she's probably too old, right? How old is Bill Murray at the time, though, you know? Like, maybe they should be closer to the same age. What would Meg Ryan have been like in that part? Very sweet.

So blonde. Let's say Eddie Murphy's the lead. Who is the actress if it's Eddie Murphy? I'm trying to think 90s. Who was popping? Like, I can't even think of white actresses popping in the 90s, much less. Like, what are they going to do? Get Whitney Houston?

Yeah. It was a tough era for actresses. Early 90s. Like, we weren't like swimming. Didn't really start to heat up until the mid-90s. Yeah, Sandra Bullock was too young at that point. Too young, but she would have been great. Julia, I think, was too big of a star at that point.

I don't think she could have been like the, that's kind of why I guess I didn't want that much from the Andy McDowell role because I didn't feel like it was it was her movie. She's just kind of the prop. All these people are props in his Ground Dog Day would be my case. Morewood's age the best. Phil? Phil? Phil? Hey, Phil?

Phil Connors? Phil Connors? I thought that was you. Hi, how you doing? Thanks for watching. Hey, hey. Now, don't you tell me you don't remember me because I sure is heckfire remember you.

Not a chance. Ned. Ryerson! Needle-nosed Ned, Ned, the head. Come on, buddy. Case Western High. Ned Ryerson, I did the whistling belly. button trick at the high school talent?

Ned Ryerson, man. Are there, like, words I've committed to memory more than needle-nosed Ned, Ned the head. That poor guy. I can't imagine what Ned Ryerson's life is like in real life from this movie, where people just for the rest of his life must see him, be like, Phil? You know him as that. Yep.

Yeah. He's been in a couple of things. He is that guy. He's that guy. $1,000 for the first piano lesson kills me when the teacher just grabs the kid and shoves her out the door. She's like, we're good. And the lingering on the slow walk is my favorite.

That poor child. Phil tries to save the homeless guy day after day. We mentioned that really, but I love that. This is the Michael Shannon cameo, his first movie ever? Just noticed that for the first time. He was overacting like shit. Yeah, he was. He's coming up in a later category.

Any other what stage is the best for you? I mean, the entire premise. I think just waking up, especially now, this is, this is as Atlantic is mentioned as we talked about the perfect time. And I think that arc of redemption is, is the best part of the movie. All right. You have to go. You have a hard out. This was so fun.

This was fun. I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. We're going to do, we do, so you'll do can't hardly wait with us down the road. Oh, because I, y'all, y'all saw that choice. That was the other one you want to do. We haven't done that one yet. I'm happy to rewatch it. I haven't seen it in so long. One of my favorites, too.

We loved having you. You ruined Andy McDowell's performance in this movie. That's all right. That's all right. You ruined my perception of Bill Murray in this movie. So thank you for that history. We're evening. Thanks for coming out. We appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Thanks, Isa. Take care.

Hey, let's take a quick break to talk about some of the stuff we have going on here at the Ringer. We are going all in on this. MJ documentary, including my podcast, is back to three times a week. And each one is going to have some sort of MJ theme until we are all the way through this documentary. Also, TV concierge. That is going full speed, exclusive to Spotify and behind the billions with Brian Coppillman and David Levine, Sunday nights breaking down the last episode of Billions.

They're qualified to do it because they run the show and they created it. And then you can check out a lot of other great pods that you probably know. about, but the big picture, the watch, some of our pop culture stuff still going strong. Hopefully when the sports comes back, we'll be able to unleash even more sports stuff. And I hope you're listening to our podcast on Spotify because they have an incredible app. You can adjust the speeds, easy to use, picks up right where you left off. It has a whole bunch of things going on. So check all that out.

All right, back to this podcast. All right, we're back. Now it's me and Sean. You know, Issa slandered Andy McDowell, and the more I think about it, it just hurts my feelings. Wow. You waited for her to go, though, before you really shared this. You know, we took a break. I had to change the batteries of my Zoom 6.

I'm not sure I'm not sure I needed anything more from Andy McDowell other than just to be like this pristine kind of boring girl that he falls in love with just because he's reliving the same. day 100,000 times. I think if she's too awesome coming out of the gate, it's, it becomes more predictable. I think part of the movie is that he's so bored. He ends up talking himself into her as like the perfect person. I'm not sure she was. I think that it makes sense when you use her as a as the kind of the premise, the device to make him a better person. I don't think it makes sense that a smarmy weatherman from Pittsburgh would fall head over heels with this

this like kind of like dull lady. Like she's just not that interesting and she, Annie McTal is beautiful. But I guess my question is is she intentionally uninteresting? Possibly. I think to your point about what's good for the movie,

it's good for the movie to let Bill Murray be the major star. The total focus point of the movie. But for Phil Connors, I don't I just want a little more heat. Issa throwing out the Eddie Murphy thing really made me think this really would have been an awesome Eddie Murphy. I think it's an awesome 80s, Eddie Murphy, though.

I think by the 90s, I don't know if he pulls it off in the same way. Or you could argue boomerang, then this movie, and now it's like we're talking about the Eddie Murphy Renaissance. I don't know. Eddie's my guy, as you know. I love Eddie. What's age the worst? The, I'm Your Weatherman theme song at the beginning is really terrible.

I'm your weatherman. It's just awful. I don't know how that happened. Was that song written for the movie, you think? I couldn't figure this out. It was. Not only was the written by the movie. It was co-written by Harold Ramos.

Oh, no. Yeah. It's just bad. Do you remember that you would have like, that felt like one of the last movie themes that was written specifically about the lead character in the movie? You know, like a lot of the 80s movies we do on the show have these up and down, you know,

like a lot of the sports movies have these kinds of theme songs is that directly relate or comment on the character's journey. Yeah. This one is like so tacky though. And the sound of it just feels like the early 90s in a bad way. Like the early 90s could have been, it could have been cool, right? The early 90s are like, they're grunge, they're West Coast hip hop. It's like Beck.

There's a lot of cool stuff happening in the movies. But this movie is kind of capturing like a small, corny town in Pennsylvania. So maybe it was the right pick. it feels too late 80s to me. I mean, a lot of this movie feels like it easily could have just happened in 1989 and it would have almost made more sense. Like even Chris Elliott being in it.

It's like a very 80s decision to have Chris Elliott in that part versus, you know, he's almost like the cliche choice for that part. And he's good in it. For me, that this is where I think I first saw him. Because I wasn't watching Letterman in the 80s, so I didn't really know him as a comic figure.

But I think for a lot of people, and then he goes on to do like get a life and there's something about Mary. And I feel like there's this was this was ground zero for Chris Elliott for me. I was like, oh, who's this fresh young face? Meanwhile, he'd been doing comedy for 10 years. Another would stage the worst for me, which is also in picking nits. They never have the scene exploring why he just didn't stay up all night. They never have the scene where they try to explain, well, wait a second.

Has this guy exhausted every alternative to try to get out of this day? The most obvious one would be just stay up all day. What happens if you stay up till 601 a.m? Does it just go to the next day? Or does your body just naturally have to shut down every day because you're living groundhog day? Never explored. There's a 100% chance that 13-year-old me, which if you can imagine was even more annoying about this stuff than I am right now, was hardcore pushing that picking nits to my friends after we saw this movie.

And they were like, just shut up and enjoy the movie. That was the take. You know, if I would tell my mom that, she'd be like, just to spend disbelief and stop being an asshole. But you're right, though. Like, even to this moment, we want like a logical explanation. There's no explanation for anything in the movie, though. We never understand why he goes into the time loop. We never understand anything about what happened to him other than it just being this sort of like,

this teaching lesson. It's very similar to like It's a Wonderful Life You know movies like that That have these like These devices in the film That teach a character a lesson And that's ultimately

You have to think of it as like a fantasy I'll just say this My daughter who just turned 15 Who is the least nitpicky TV movie person On the planet She likes everything Questions nothing

enjoys all All content To a fault Even she after this movie says, dad, why didn't he just stay up all night? Wouldn't that just solve this? I'm like, wow, if my daughter is picking nits on a movie, that's a pretty big flaw.

So maybe they filmed the scene and cut it. I don't know. Other than that, I don't have a lot of what's aged the worst for this. I actually think this movie has aged really well. I think it's timeless in a way that is incredible. It doesn't need cell phones. It doesn't need the internet. it doesn't really need anything.

You could basically make this movie right now. And I'm not sure really anything's different other than him looking at his phone. Yeah, there are a couple of small little things. There's the moment when he's trying to get out of Punxatani on that first day. And he says that all the long, he hears that all the long distance lines are down. And he says like, what about the satellites?

Is it snowing in space? Yeah. And if that happened right now, obviously, you wouldn't do that now. You wouldn't have that. But I think, I think you're right.

And I think the small town aspect of it makes it seem like it's crystallized. than Amber. The one thing, has Groundhog Day aged well? The whole idea, the cultural idea of like we wait for this Groundhog to tell us whether there's more winter. I feel like since I moved to L.A., I don't even think about winter. Like, I don't even know what that is anymore. So, it's a good point. But I do remember being a kid and like kind of caring about whether the Groundhog saw a shadow or not. Now I don't even, I don't give a fuck. So what's aged the worst as global warming has ruined Groundhog Day? I think that's fair. I don't, because there's no continuity or logic to the seasons anymore.

Everything has just completely fallen apart. So the ground dog might come out in November now. Who knows? I feel like if you watch this movie 25 years from now when the daily temperature is 111 degrees every day, people are going to think this movie was made 300 years ago. It's going to seem impossible, like wondering about when winter is going to hit a small town in Pennsylvania. It's a great what it, what's aged the worst. A couple categories.

Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. We can conceive when we changed this to the Stephen Tubalowski Award. He plays Ned Ryerson. Phil? Phil?

He's one of those guys. I think he made his name after this movie on self-identifying as a that guy. I feel like he was one of the first guys who embraced the concept and was like, you know what? I'm comfortable being that familiar

face that you like from all of these movies. But this is like, this is his, it's not even his Mount Rushmore. It's like his Lincoln Memorial. You know, it's like a, it stands alone in the, in the hall of, of game for, for that guys.

So you're, you're saying, we might have to change this. I mean, we'll have to check with CR. Okay. All right. I mean, he's like,

he's definitely in the Hall of Fame. The Stephen Tobelowski best that guy award. It's funny because he's such a that guy. He's in single white female, which I'll watch every once in a while, enjoy the premise. And he's the smart, me, sexual harassing person in Bridget Fonda who, like, it ends up being a plot where he's just such a sleazy scumbag. But having the Groundhog Day, Ned Ryerson, you're like,

oh, my, I can't believe Ned Ryerson's doing this. Like, it's impossible to accept him in any other role. He's such a that guy. Versatile actor, Tobolowski. One of my favorite bits in the movie is still when, not when he punches him out and not when he, like, blows him off quickly, but when he hugs him immediately and says, what are you doing today? Can you call him sick? And he just holds him and holds him.

That's just so good. Well, he's also, I think, the Dionne Waiters Award winner for this one. He's not in the movie that much. Too much Chris Elliott for this? He's really funny. Too much Chris Elliott. Yeah. He's arguably the third lead of the movie. What's your take on Rick Ducommon? I wanted more. He was definitely a that guy.

I remember seeing him on like HBO stand-up comedy specials in the late 80s. I have him coming up later. Okay. So I'm going to say Stephen Tabalowski for Dan Waiters, unless you want to talk me out of it. I'm on board. Okay. The Vincent Hanna Great Ass Award.

Because she's got a great ass. I change it from the Vincent Hanna. They knew a word because a couple of readers pointed out, It didn't make sense because Vincent Hanna didn't say they knew. So we had to change it to the Vincent Hanna. Great ass award. We mentioned him earlier, Michael Shannon. He dials it up in the wedding scene.

He's like, I'm in a movie. It's my first movie. I'm going all in. Roscomania. Rosalmania! No way. Thank you, Mr. Counters. You're a real pal.

Oh, this is the best. So he wins that one. And then recasting couch, you just mentioned him. Rick Duccommon? I feel like we could have done better with that part. Think about, let me just throw this one at you. Little Bill Hicks. Oh, wow.

Just a better stand-up comedian. Just a much better stand-up comedian. There's some good ones in the early 90s that we could have inserted in there. And I just don't feel like this was the right pick. That's a good call. You know who crossed my mind when we were talking about it before was Bouchemie?

I feel like Bouchemie might have been a good kind of down on his luck. Imagine him doing the glass half full, glass half empty bit, you know. It's also, it's a Randy Quaid part, but at that point,

Randy Quaid had done that part too many times, but it's, I just wanted more. I wanted a bigger actor in that part. I think they could have splurged on it. Halfass internet research. Bill Murray was bitten by the groundhog either two or three times,

varying reports on this. Whoa. And had to have anti-rabies injections because one of the bites was so severe. in the scene when he steals the groundhog when he's driving like right after they cut he gets bit really badly by the ground dog he's got great chemistry with the groundhog too though you know i love when he's like don't drive angry don't drive angry

well it's i didn't know what what category to put this in but um bill murray and groundhogs probably the greatest greatest connection of an actor and an animal ever he's two iconic movies with a ground dog. That's very disrespectful to Turner and Hooch, very disrespectful. Yeah, but it's Tom Hanks would have to have a second movie with a dog. I'm saying Bill Murray goes two times with the ground dog. There's two greatest movies ever that have had a groundhog. Bill Murray is in both movies interacting with the groundhog. It'll never happen again. That's a, it's a great point. Although in, you know, he's, I guess he's the bane of his existence

in both movies, right? The Groundhog both times. Was there any connection? Like, did they specifically draw a connection to that, Ramis and Murray? Did they talk about how, like, Carl was tortured by the Groundhog? They did. There's, uh, when they were either right in the movie or in the original script, they have the scene when he kidnaps the Groundhog, it actually goes further where he goes in the Groundhog's layer to try to blow it up and they realized it was too close to Katach. I was in the research. That's funny. That would have been too far.

According to Harold Ramos, when he would explain a scene to Bill Murray, Murray would interrupt him and say, just tell me, good Phil or bad Phil, and would play the scene accordingly. I didn't notice this until I did the research. All the clocks in the diner are stopped marrying Phil's predicament. It's not filmed in Punks Tawani, Pennsylvania. It's actually filmed in Woodstock, Illinois, 50 miles from Bill Murray's hometown. there's a small plaque in Woodstock, Illinois, that says Bill Murray stepped here on the curb where he actually steps in the puddle. And then there's another plaque in the building where at the corner that says Ned's corner where Phil was continually accosted by Ned Ryerson.

In the original version of the script, Phil, it just starts with Phil waking up at 6 o'clock and it's Groundhog Day. and we just joined him on the day and the audience is wondering how the hell he knows everything that's about to happen. Howard Ramos changed it after saying he wasn't going to change it but then he ends up changing it.

Interesting premise, but they did the right thing by introducing him as the weatherman. The writer Danny Rubin, this was like his big break. It was like his great idea. He said one of the reasons he created it was he read an interview with the vampire

which started getting him thinking about what it would be like to live forever, what would you do? Then when the script started to change, our guy, Stephen Tobolowski, he said, quote, when I got the part, it was still kind of a mediocre Bill Murray movie. You know, Bill Murray with no consequences, comic situations. It wasn't until we got into shooting that everything turned on its head and it became not only a good movie, not only a great movie, but a classic. Even the ending, they shot 25 takes of the closing scene when Bill Murray wakes up next to Andy McDowell

unsure what the tonality should be. And weirdly, whether they should still be in their clothes or not, having consummated whatever. And they, Harold Ramos asked everyone on the set, including the cast of crew, what the right move should be. And the final tally was like they should stay in their clothes and make it seem like they never had sex yet.

She mentions like, oh, Phil, why are you getting so frisky? You fell asleep last night. It's a little weird. I actually think they should have made it seem like they had sex. So I think the movie is really chased and it never goes out of its way. There obviously is the love scene with Nancy Taylor. I did want to ask you, though, you just reminded me by talking about how they didn't have sex. You know when he dresses up as the man with no name and he goes to the movies with the woman dressed as a maid?

Yeah. Who is that? Who is that woman? Is that woman a prostitute? What's going on there? Seems like a hooker. Yeah. It's an unignaled chooker.

They just dropped that. I'm rewatching the movie a second time. I'm like, have we seen her before? Is she working in the diner? Who is that gal? She's really cute. What's going on here? He dialed up Pucksawani call girl service and just stepped right in.

We mentioned how the Buddhists, they really got into this movie. So do the Hindus, the Jews. All of them found big significance. On the Jewish side, they talk about how Connors is saved only after he performs mitzvahs, good deeds, he's returned to earth, not heaven, to perform more. I had no idea. I got to say, I never really had researched this movie before. I had no idea how religious it was to people.

And that's the biggest reason it's had such an afterlife, no pun intended. Hey, nice job. It's also in Christianity. A lot of people see his experience as purgatory, you know, as being trapped between not being, you know, a truly evil sinner. So not being subjected to hell, but also not good enough. And we know Phil Conner's not really a good guy at the beginning of the movie, not going to heaven and just being stuck and having to go through the stages of self-improvement to make

yourself worthy of heaven. And at the end of the film, he gets Andy McDowell's character to love him. And that is heaven for him. It really does work kind of across faith. It's funny because this doesn't normally happen with popular movies. I think there's certain movies where they make it and they're intending for you to interpret certain things. For a popular movie, it doesn't usually happen. But this is like, you know, with literature, it always used to drive me crazy when I was in high school English or college English.

And people would be interpreting all these crazy shit out of these books. I'm like, you know, I just don't think the author meant that. Yeah. I think people have been reading the same book for 150 years, trying to figure out all these different things that didn't exist. This usually doesn't happen with normal comedies. And it's funny that I certainly don't think when they made this movie, they intended it to have the religious after effects that it had. I'm sure they, I'm sure it was on the radar. Like, oh, man, we're saying some interesting stuff here about the meaning of it.

of life. But I guarantee they didn't know like all these different religions would be like, that's my movie, Buddhist monks? 100%. The one thing it reminds me of, I know you're not a big, Big Lebowski guy, but the big Lobowski had a very similar thing where people took, they adopted the dude's philosophy of life and his just sort of general approach to everything and literally wrote books about it. I mean, they created scholarship around it the same way they did around this movie. But if you look at everything that Harold Ramos did before this, you know, National Lampoon's Vacation and Caddyshack and Stripes and even Ghostbusters,

which kind of sort of has big ideas, but these are mostly like really direct entertaining comedies. You know, they're not, they're about stages of life, but they're not about ideas of the self or, you know, religion or anything like that. He does kind of sort of start to get into this stuff, though, in the movies that come after it, you know, like multiplicity is clearly the reflection. of somebody who's like, I'm fucking busy and I'm destroying myself and I need help.

It's like a movie made by a guy who's in a little bit of crisis. And I feel like Groundhog Day might have tripped a wire for all the people who made it. You know, it might have pushed them to start to do stuff that challenged their ideas of like what a comedy could be. Yeah. Multipensity.

Polarizing movie. It's all right. One of my roommates in the mid-90s, it was his favorite movie. and my then girlfriend who became my wife at the time, we were just, oh, we always thought my old roommate, Ricky, we always were just stunned that he loved this movie so much. It hit some people in the best possible way.

Other people are like, what the fuck is this? Why did this happen? I don't know what to say. It's fine. It's like it is actually the version of movie that Stephen Tobolowski is talking about where he's like, it's like a down the middle,

mediocre Bill Murray movie. It just happens to star Michael Keaton. Apex Mountain. It's funny. I had this written down, but then we already cover this. Groundhog Day. I feel like this was the apex mountain

for Groundhog Day, but I mean, all the global warming stuff is an even better reason. But I do feel like people cared about Groundhog Day in the early 90s. I'd be like, hey, did it come out? Oh, it's all shadow.

Like, it's so stupid now. Andy McDowellellell I would say yes. Hard no. What would you say? Sex Lise and Videotape. As usual, we're 130 episodes in and we still haven't figured out Apex Mountain yet. I'm not asking what her best performance is.

But she gets to be the star of a green card after Sex Lies and Videotape. So after Sex Lies and Video Tape, they're like, this woman is a movie star. We have to put her in the center of the frame in mainstream movies. And she never, I mean, her career is, I don't want to relitigate it too much, but her career is pretty weird. Like, she kind of vanishes from movies after 1996. Like, so after this movie she does, Four Winnings in a Funeral, Bad Girls, Unstrung Heroes, Multiplicity, and Michael. And then look at the movie she makes from 1997 till now. Like, is there one significant, memorable movie on that list?

You know, Sean, some people want to have kids and raise a family. Maybe that's not okay with you. No, I actually researched. No, no, no. I knew that this would get thrown my way, but she had her first kid in 1986 before she was even in a movie. Who is her famous kid? Margaret Quali from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

So how old is she? She's her youngest daughter. She had her the same year that four weddings and a funeral came out, 1994. So obviously she had multiple kids and was like, I can't. But it's not that she stops working. She just makes bad movies. Yeah, but here's the thing. And we've talked about this a couple times, and this is one of my favorite theories.

I haven't named this theory after somebody, but maybe it should be Andy McDowell. I think because the parts for female leads were so bad. Really up until the mid-2010s, you could even say, they all kind of had a shelf life of these four to five-year careers. Like, we talked about Madeline Stowe when you talked about how you watch revenge for the big picture. And like, every guy loved her in Stakeout. She was smoking hot and she's in revenge and she had this five-year run. And then you kind of get pushed aside for whoever the next person is. And I think that's what made people like Meg Ryan, Sandra Bullock, Reese Witherspoon, they fought off that four to five year. Here's my shelf life where I get to start a three

movies and then I'm going to be pushed aside for the next person. Andy McDowell was in that mix where it's like, okay, you're in a couple. Now you have to go. Who's next? Let's put this person in. And that's just kind of what it was because none of the parts where they're all playing the same part. They're like these, you know, they're props for whoever the male star is. You're totally right. The theory is 100% legitimate. I feel like the actresses who get a chance to outlast that thing. And that's like it's forced upon them by Hollywood because they basically discard women. We got to bring Issa back. Issa, come back.

We need to talk about this. It's a good topic for her. But like she could have transitioned into taking on more interesting supporting parts. Now, not everybody gets a chance to do that. You have to be a really good actor to do that. But I mean, I'm not overstating it when I say she's in a bunch of movies that you've just straight up never even heard of. You know, inconceivable, the six wives of Henry Lafay, the fifth quarter as good as dead. These sound like made up movies.

I watch movies all the time, Bill. You know how much I am obsessed with this stuff. I don't know what these movies are that she made in the 2000s. Sex Lise and Videotape is an amazing movie that we're going to do on the rewatchables at some point. It's my mom's favorite movie ever. I don't know what that says about me, but it says something. That my mom's favorite movie ever is sex lies and videotape. It is just so fucked up and amazing.

and another movie that could come out right now. Oh, yeah. You would just exchange it with like, you know, whatever YouTube clips or the guy would just have an internet server or whatever instead of videotapes. Yeah, sex lies in Pornhub. Yeah. All right, so no free to tell you, babe. So you would say the 70s with Sunny and Share, the Sunny and Share variety of our one of my first favorite shows. I got you, babe, with Sunny and Share's biggest hit.

So that's obviously Apex Mountain, but it's interesting that this movie is where that song lives on. Anybody under 40 doesn't remember the Sunny and Share Variety Hour, but they know the song from this movie. So in a weird way, it's its belated Apex Mountain. How did Sunny and Share feel about this? Because, you know, the song is obviously picked to completely torture Phil Connors. It's that, you know, it's this cloying, obnoxious relic of the late 60s, you know? I wonder if they, did they get the joke? Is Cher right on the joke here?

Oh, I'm sure Cher was pissed off about it. She was a legendary curmudgeon. She had the great Letterman appearance of the 80s when she didn't like when Letterman kept making fun of her and came on and really went at it with them. And like it was like Haggla Hearns. It was really great. That's a good one.

Any other Apex Mountain for you? I mean, is it Ramesses? This movie's a big hit. it gets people to take him more seriously. Probably, yeah. Feels like it, right? It's a culmination of a really great 17, 18 year run,

starting with National Lampoon in the 70s going all the way through. My personal apex for him is the first 20 minutes of stripes. I think the first 20 minutes of stripes is the best 20 minutes of any comedy, any start of a comedy ever. if we're just like, what's the best?

Because usually comedies are always better in the beginning and they kind of lose steam in some way as they go along. So there's really strong competition. Well, Stripes, I think, just turns into a war movie at some point and it gets pretty intense. Yeah, it gets super weird. From him losing, losing, him stopping the cab in the bridge, he goes home, his girlfriend's cheating on him. She's topless.

She leaves. He's got a pizza. The pizza falls over. He's playing basketball. And some reason, dunking, doing the fake basketball thing. They decided all of it is just,

every beat of it is just awesome. So good. We got his stripes at some point. I love stripes. If stripes is held up for under 30 people, I'd be interested to know that. So there's some weird shit in that. A lot of those movies are not streaming.

You know, like is Caddyshack streaming right now? Is National Ampoons Vacation streaming right now? Because if it's not, it runs the risk of getting overlooked. And then you don't have parents showing their kids movies or, I don't mean, that's a big part of this. And like Groundhog Day, we didn't say it, but I mean, it's on Netflix. And if you haven't seen it, it's very easy to watch it. It's an hour and 35 minutes. It's one of the breeziest movies you could ever encounter, despite it having all these weighty themes. That's a big part, I think of this stuff lasting. As far as

Ramos goes, though, it was really interesting. I never, I don't think I took him as seriously as a lot of the people who looked up to him did. And when he passed away, I think it was Judd Apatow, like, had a lot to say about how influential his movies were on him and how the idea of looking at really serious stuff in your life in a comic context, you know, he's in a very rare class of people. Like Albert Brooks is in there. You know, there's only a handful of people who were like, I'm going to look at what the afterlife is.

I'm going to look at what therapy means. I'm going to look at what the idea of good versus evil means. Like most comedies, and Ramos was a part of these comedies too. He was a part of the classic vacation comedy. He was a part of the classic, you know, military comedy. But he was not afraid to dig into some of those bigger ideas. And that obviously had a huge impact on what comedy became in the 2000s, I think. Yeah.

I think he's, I think him, Ivan Reitman are, it's funny because their worlds collide a couple times there. But John Hughes, probably the big three from the 80s for comedies. Yeah, I think that's right. For how many paths they crossed and the whole thing. I fucking love stripes. You know, we call this podcast the rewatchables, as you know, if you're listening to it. My generation, I think, was the first rewatchables generation because up until the mid-80s, you couldn't really re-watch stuff. I mean, you couldn't even

could barely get videotapes for anything. And by mid-80s, the VCR culture starts. We get more cable channels. But by the time I got to college, we all had the same six or seven movies that we had seen a hundred times. Stripes was one of them, Caddyshap, Caddyshack Animal House, 48 hours, Beverly Copp. It was a list that was under 20. And all of us had seen those movies a million times. So like when I went to Holy Cross when I was a freshman, we thought it would be on our hall, we thought it would be funny to give everybody a nickname. And Jack O, who's a legend on the BS pod, has been out a million times. His nickname freshman year was Ox because of Stripes. Because he had a crew cut. He was a little pudgy. We just

started calling him Ox and he hated it. And then eventually he became Jacko. But that's like Stripes was so influential that it was literally, we're in college and we're giving somebody on our hall is named Ox. Can I share a very brief Jacko observation with you? Yeah. My mind was blown last week when you had Jacko on your show and he had the proper mic and audio rig and I heard his voice in clear fidelity because I have spent the last 10 years listening to his voice over a phone on your podcast and it was like a different person.

I was like, who is this stranger? This isn't the Jacko, I know. It's crazy how you build a relationship with a sound. Well, he, and he's got one of the great voices. So the real audio equipment really, really banged at home. Anyway, that was a huge tangent. Picky nits, why didn't he just stay awake? I think we covered all the picking nits of this movie.

I don't really have a lot. I was wondering if, so if he commits suicide, does he just wakes up immediately the next day? or does time pass? Like, what actually happens there? Oh, shit. Oh, you just broke my brain. Okay.

Okay. I mean, I got stuck thinking about stuff like this. I have a leak in my brain. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what happens. Do you wake up immediately? I don't know. I couldn't really figure that out.

And does that count as like a full day? If you wake up it, if he did, like, how many times do you think he killed himself immediately upon waking up? So, like, he kills himself at 7 a.m. and then just wakes up the next day. So conceivably he could bang out 10 days in a row in like five hours. Exactly. Best quote.

We mention a lot of them. I like when he goes, you know, people like blood sausage too. People are morons. He sees a shadow. He doesn't see his shadow. It's nice. People like it. You are new, aren't you?

You know, people like blood sausage too. People are morons. Nice attitude. It's a good one. There's so many in this movie. I have a really, I have a hard time, like, even making a list. It's also, it feels like one of the all-time Bill Murray writing stuff on the fly to reply to characters. Like, he's the all-time comeback guy in movies.

And I, I don't know. This is a great, great version that. I have a couple that I do like, though. When he's at the bar and he's like, I was in the Virgin Islands once. I met a girl. I was in the Virgin Islands once. I met a girl. We ate lobster, drank pinocoladas.

At sunset, we made love like Sianos. That was a pretty good day. Why couldn't I get that day? Right. Do you have a Bill Simmons Hall of Fame Day? Like, what's your day that you would want to have over and over? I don't know. You and Bill Russell chopping it up about the NBA?

That was a great day. That was the highlight of my career. There you go. Yeah. I don't know if I'd want to. Relive 10,000 straight days with Bill Russell, though. I'd have to think about that. Fair enough.

Probably unanswerable questions. We hit the big one. I guess the only other one that I have is, what's the next day for Phil Conner's like? I'll tell you what it's like. It's a huge letdown for Rita when she realizes that Phil does not know everything that's going to happen and isn't saving people's lives and playing the piano beautifully and being the absolute genius of the world. Or has he gained so much knowledge, know-how, intelligence that he's actually

able to parlay that into a whole bunch of different things? Does he become basically the Dosecci's guy? So I've thought about this. So I think that one thing that we're not accounting for, because that's like the lesson of the movie, right? It's that if you get enough chances, you can become a fully realized human being that is decent and skilled and thoughtful and romantic and all of these things that we aspire to in our lives. But it's not really accounting for the insane trauma of new experiences that he's going to have to cope with. If he's been doing this for 10,000 days, what's it going to be like when he has to

have something that he doesn't know is coming? He might be, he might immediately have PTSD. So new experiences would actually throw him up. I would say he would be so excited to have a new day every day that he would, just be delighted by all of the uncertainty. I don't think it would be a PTSD thing. I think he'd be like, this is great. It's February 4th.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that he and Rita stay together? No. Oh. Because at some point he tells her a, so I lived the same day for 38 years. And that's why you love me so much. And she's like, this is weird. I think I'm going to sleep at my friend's house today.

Yeah, that's reasonable. And then it's just, that's how it puts out. Who won the movie? I would say Bill Murray. 100%. I think this is like the pivotal role of the back half of his career. What would your top five Bill Murray performances in a movie be? Would this be no one?

You're spoiling a big picture podcast for sure. We could still do it. This is on the short list. Hmm. Let me just give me. one second to think about this. Definitely. Go ahead.

Stripes one. Ground hug day two. Ghostbusters three. Caddyshack four. I'm sorry. Even though it's not a quote unquote Bill Murray movie, Carl is so fucking funny in that movie. Yeah.

Carl brings me so much joy. That's why I had it four. And then I go, what about five and then lost in translation six? And if Caddyshack can't count, then lost the translation becomes five. So I just, I rewatched Kingpin like a month ago. And actually, I didn't even really rewatch it. All I did was watch all the Bill Murray scenes on YouTube because I went into a Bill Murray

rabbit hole. This was even before I knew we were doing this. I just was, I just got excited about Bill Murray again. And everything Bill Murray does in Kingpin is is a rock solid gold. It is like some of the hardest I've ever laughed in a movie. And I'm like, I'm totally down with Ghostbusters. and Caddyshack and those are some of my favorite movies ever made.

Obviously, this is in the conversation for favorite movie in the 90s, Groundhog Day, which is something that maybe it's a little too big to talk about it at this point. And I love Rushmore, which I mentioned before, which I think is like the logical next step

on this movie. You know, in retrospect, this probably gets nominated for an Oscar, right? I think so. It was added to the National Registry you know, in the Library of Congress. like 13 years later, not even that much later. I think pretty quickly,

and in part because it had a long HBO shelf life where it was on TV every day. I mean, this is one of those movies that firmly falls into the classic rewatchables category because of how much access people had to it when we were younger. I think it was very quickly people realized that it was a more sophisticated

and cool movie than what Stephen Tobolowski described as like, you know, the mediocre Bill Murray comedy. Well, here's the list. Schindler's list wins, the fugitive, in the name of the father, the piano, and the remains of the day. Serious Oscars that here. That's a big year. Yeah. Best, it's interesting, Philadelphia not nominated.

Really? For best picture. Yeah, because he wins for best act. Tom Hanks wins for Philadelphia for best actor. Wow. That's shocking. he beats the best actor category that year is tom hanks philadelphia daniel de lewis in the name of the father lawrence fishburn what's love got to do with it anthony hopkins the remains the day

leon nison schindler's list you also have tommy lee jones wins for the fugitive and uh holly hunter beats angela bassett and uh in best actress my girl stocker channing at six degrees separation she's in there too will smiths and their best supporting actor There's a lot of great performances in 93. So Grand Dog Day shut out over the across the board. It's kind of amazing that the fugitive and the remains of the day were in there over Philadelphia. That's shocking. Sean, I don't know if you know this, but we're going to run on that content soon.

Uh-huh. Nothing might be back in a month. Yes. I'm getting two weeks of MJ content. I'm then probably redraftables. and then I'm probably done after that. We might have to just redo every Oscars as a gimmick this summer. I'm ready, man.

You know I'm ready. We just start with 1975 and just go. 75 is the greatest collection of Best Picture nominees of all time. Or 72? We start with the Godfather. We might just have to do it as a gimmick. I don't really know what else we can do if sports doesn't come back. We're in a lot of trouble.

We have to make as many things as we can into sports. That's what I've been doing. For me, every Wednesday night, Survivor is sports. That's how I think about the world right now. It's smart. It's smart. Well, this was fun. Thanks to Issa.

That was great having her on. I wish she could have stayed the whole time, but she's super fucking busy these days. So we got her for 45 great minutes. Hopefully she'll come back. Sean, pleasure as always. And we'll see you in the next rewatchables. Thanks, Bill. That's it for the rewatchables.

Thanks to Issa Ray. Don't forget about Insecure. It's on HBO every Sunday night. You can catch up on all the old ones on HBO Go or HBO On Demand. We are coming back on Monday. We're on a good run right now in the rewatchables. Coming back on Monday. It's going to be a Crimson podcast.

It will be my only hint. All right, fine. We're doing Crimson Tide. It's going to be awesome. See you Monday.