The Rewatchables - ‘Heat’ With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: August 7, 2017

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan to induct ‘Heat’ into the Movie Hall of Fame. Topics include: Was De Niro vs. Pacino worth the hype? (2:50). Was this peak Michael Mann? (8:25). Was this one of the great ensemble casts ever? (14:40). What were the 10 most important lessons from 'Heat'? (21:00). What was Pacino’s best line? (41:50). Who won this movie—Pacino or De Niro? (52:20). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the rewatchables. We were brought to you by Seekkeek, the presenting sponsor of the Bill Simmons podcast, the easiest way to shop for the best tickets. Thanks to their revolutionary grading system. Download the Seek app today or go right to seegeek.com. We're also brought to you, obviously, by the ringer.com. We are part of the Ringer podcast network. And this is one that Chris Ryan and I did back in December of 2015,

about three months after I relaunched the Bill Simmons podcast. and it was the 20th anniversary of Heat. Chris Ryan loves Heat, I love Heat. We decided, let's do an entire podcast about Heat. And it actually became kind of with the DNA of this rewatchables podcast feed is we want to do movies that we love deep dives. And there is no deeper deep dive you will ever hear in your life than this deep dive that Chris Ryan and I did on Heat. It's actually probably my favorite podcast that I've done in the last two plus years ever since, ever since, I guess, minus two minus years, less than two years, whatever.

Since we relaunched the Bill Sivitz podcast, I love this one. And I love that there's someone out there that loves this movie as much as I do. So here we go. Chris Ryan and I talking about Heat, a rewatchable first ballot, Hall of Famer. It's the 20th anniversary of one of my favorite movies of all time. It's called Heat. It stars Robert De Niro and Al Pacino and about 25 other people that we know and love. it's directed by Michael Mann.

I think it's his peak movie. Chris Ryan is here. We've had many arguments about who liked this movie more me or Chris Ryan, and I think it's a tie. It is my favorite movie. It's your favorite movie ever? It is my favorite movie ever.

I think it's the film I've seen the most over the course of my life. I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping we can record this podcast at BJ's on Alvarado at 2 a.m. But we're stuck here. It'll have to do. How is there stuff happening at Figaro and Flower

but then Venice? At the same time, there's some street name mess-ups in that movie. The great mystery of Michael Mann is the way he collapses Los Angeles traffic on itself. Because that's the whole thing with collateral, right? It's like, Jamie Fox is like, I can get you from LAX to downtown in seven minutes. It's like, come on. It sounds great. So I watched it again last night.

One of my angles on this movie is that 95 was like the last pre-internet year. There was the internet, but there wasn't. Like I didn't even have an email address. I don't think until 96. Some people did. But it was like, you know, the internet for the next couple years started to change how we regarded movies and how we anticipated them and what we knew about them. Yeah, but even as late as the 90s, like Blair Witch Project came out, I went to that movie. I didn't know if it was real or not on that Friday night.

Now if that came out, it would have no chance. Yeah. But when he came out, all we knew was there was a trailer and De Niro and Pacino were in it and they were in the same movie and they were in the same scenes. and De Niro was the bad guy and Pacino was the cop and everyone was in. Yeah. Like just all the way in. You couldn't be more in.

You have to remember where these guys were. I mean, we look at them sometimes now with a little bit of like smiling derision or just like sympathy, but this was them at the top of their craft still. I mean, De Niro was coming off of Goodfellas and Pacino would have this big sort of renaissance in the 90s of the scent of a woman and heat.

So these guys are still big draws and consider the top of their craft. and they had been in Godfather 2 together, but were not in any scenes together in Godfather 2. And ironically, Godfather 2 was like 20 years before this movie. Now it's 20 years since he, but they were never in the same scene. They actually, De Niro played Michael Corleone's dad,

but the young version of him. De Niro, did he win, did he win best supporting actor? For Godfather 2? I believe so, yeah. Right. And that was part of the appeal was, this is awesome. These guys are in the same movie.

De Niro was coming off a really nice stretch where I think Goodfellas was 1990, I want to say, but then he had also had that, like, Bronx tale. And he was pumping out movies, and he was kind of in his post-prime prime. Cape Fear's around there. Cape Fear, yeah, he was on a good run. And Pacino had basically disappeared for most of the 80s.

He came back with See You Love. Scent of a Woman, I think, was 93. He wins the Oscar finally. And unfortunately, he turned into the scent of the woman guy, which carries over in the heat, but I enjoyed it. Yeah. Right. So he had done Revolution in 85 and then he disappears for four years and comes back. He was doing stage. I think he was having some personal issues. Yeah. He goes,

Sea of Love, Dick Tracy, Godfather 3, Frankie and Johnny, Glenn Gary. He's incredible. Sen of a woman, Carlito's Way, heat. Yeah. Nice run. So before Sen. Sine of a woman, there was a little like, oh, Pacino. Yeah. What's going on? Like, De Niro versus Pacino, I did this on ESPN.com in 2001. one of my first big mail brag. I used to call them the Dr. Jack Breakdowns was DeNor v. Pacino. This was like the Bird versus Magic for actors.

It sounds weird to say this now because I don't think anyone argues about actors this way. Well, how few... The track that they followed was very similar. New York. The came out of the 70s. Working in, like, greedy crime films in the 70s with these Hugo Tours.

A lot of New York movies. Yeah, and they were the place where the critical acclaim for the actor was actually met by some box office appeal. Like, they wasn't just... They weren't like, oh, actors love these guys, or like only critics and fanboys love these guys. These were, like, huge movie stars. And both Italian.

Yeah. The Godfather thing obviously tied them together. Combined, they probably made nine or ten movies set in New York. Yeah, yeah. And a little bit mythical off the, off the screen. Yeah, method actors, guys who really weird. Put themselves into their roles. Yeah.

Yeah, nobody could totally get a handle on them. And it really looked like De Niro had won the rivalry. and then The Sense of a Woman, which was a big commercial movie, but also big for Pacino. It was kind of like he laid the smack. Yeah, that was the Rain Man move. He did a movie. He was his Oscar Bay and it worked.

He's great in that movie. It's a ridiculous movie. I don't totally understand Sent of a Woman. Like when it's on cable, it's like, wow, how did this movie get made? It basically comes down to this huge showdown of somebody might have not told the truth about some statue that had been defaced and it's like a whole core. It's ridiculous. Yeah.

But he's great in it. He's amazing. You know, it's also worth thinking about 95 in movies. Great right. And thinking about how, especially for like crime movies like this, you're coming out of a time period where like this is right when Quentin starts to hit. So it's reservoir dogs is I think 92 and, um, uh, Pulps 94. Yeah.

And there are all these movies that are ripping reservoir and pulp off, especially in like the tone. So the tone is really winking. It's very self-aware. It's very like referential to pop culture and stuff like that. So, you know, reservoirs. usual suspects that come out that August. And that was incredible.

But that was almost, you know, a referendum on crime movies because it's, you know, the guy who you don't expect to be the villain is the villain. Right. So he comes. And I remember it was that December. I think I was on Christmas break from college my freshman year. And there was this huge blizzard in Philly. But I remember going all the way to the theater in this blizzard and being like one of ten people in the theater because it was almost shut down. And immediately just it felt like a completely different experience than those other.

kind of more, those more like ironic, not even ironic, but those more like postmodern films. This was like so confident and rooted in a place. And I had never been to Los Angeles. And that's the thing about heat is an incredible Los Angeles. Very good element. And collateral is almost like the LA sequel of it. Yeah, exactly. It's just, it was, it felt different.

It was so long. You know what I mean? I don't think that there were a lot of like three hour crime movies at that time. Yeah. And I don't know what I would. There's definitely 25. minutes to cut out of this movie. Yeah, there's entire plot lines you could have gotten rid of.

But that I think has a little bit to do with the fact that, so I didn't know this until recently, but this was an, he was originally a pilot that. I never knew that. And it's on YouTube. It's called LA Takedown. And it was apparently, if Brandon Tarticoff and Michael Mann had agreed on the actor. The lead actor. They would have just made a show.

By the way, I never heard of again. There was some dude, Adam Plank or somebody like that? Yeah. Scott Plank. And if they had just agreed on this, he had, he had. never would happen. It just would have been a TV show like Miami Vice. The other thing with the Michael Mann was also in his prime. Oh, yeah. So he's coming off of Manhunter and Last the Mohicans.

Yeah, and I idolized that guy. Yeah. And Miami Vice. Yeah. Well, he'd first done the Jericho Mile, which is the greatest TV movie of all time, in my opinion. And for me, a top 12 sports movie. And I don't even think it exists anywhere. But it's, if you have a chance, watch the Jericho mile if it's somewhere, then goes and does Vice. It's unclear how much. how involved he was in Vice, but... I think for the aesthetics, he had a lot to do with it. Yeah, he did the pilot. Yeah, he hired all the people.

He hired Don Johnson. Yeah, he did all that stuff. Crime story. Last of the Mohicans, which has not age great, but in the moment was really cool and kind of subalica. It's pretty romantic, but it's, you know, it's funny. It's like, it's not unlike the Revenant, which we got a chance to check out.

Yeah. And it's, you know, 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago, he's doing a lot of the stuff that Interretude winds up doing in the Revenant with these sweeping shots of these like hand-to-hand combat battles on the frontier. It's pretty incredible. It's actually Jeremiah Johnson, Last the Mohicans and the Revenant. And they all kind of speak to whatever the era was. Yeah.

The Last Mohicans was basically that kind of post-MTV video, lots of driving music and lots of scenes with no dialogue. Yeah. And up until he, his like directing is very painterly. It's very, it's not still necessarily, but it's just, it looks like a moving like landscape painting. And then when he goes to heat, it starts getting a little bit more handheld and a little bit more gritty. And like it looks a little bit more, it's not quite digital, but it feels like very like modern.

Yeah. I used to go. So like I'm living in Boston for the whole 1990s basically. And that winter of 95 was one of my worst winters. I think I've ever had in my life. Like I'm between girlfriends since I started dating the wrong girlfriend. I'm at the Harold. I'm getting buried.

I'm doing covering all these high school sports. It's this monster. blizzard year. I think we had like 10 blizzards that year. My cars just keeps getting towed over and over again. It was just miserable. The Celtics are awful. All the teams are awful.

I think the Patriots, it was, I don't, I don't, the Patriots might have come on that year. That might have been the one silver lining. But just, I love going to the movies. It was like, there was the one thing I had is I'm going to go to Somerville Theater. I'm going to see a movie and I can't. So the heat's on the radar. It's like, oh my God. This is the highlight of my month.

And it was a Christmas movie. Yeah. December 15th, like, this is great. I can't wait to see this. And it was even better I thought it was going to be. I stumbled out of the theater. I didn't even know what to do. I think that there's a couple of scenes in there that were unlike anything we had seen before.

So that opening heist with the trucks. And it's like the way that they build up to that where you start and the credits are rolling and you're like, why is this guy stealing an ambulance? And why is this guy buying a detonation equipment from like a Home Depot in Arizona? And, you know, you meet Wayne Groh at the food stand. And he's officially Wayne Groh. right? I don't think he has a real name. No, I don't think.

You think he goes into a bar now? I hope he has like a much different. Yeah. And you get slowly starts and Seismore's like, don't, you know, stop talking, you know. And that first, uh, that first heist with the trucks and with the, uh, with, with the cops coming in like the chain across the road, flattens their tires.

And it takes your breath away and that's like a 25 minute sequence. And they did it for real. It wasn't CGI. It was like they knocked down the truck. I remember the sound. And you could see it when the DVDs came out a couple years later. Like the way they did the sound in the theater, you almost had a heart attack. That's the same thing with the machine guns and the bank robber scene.

It's just like it's cacophonous. Like it's cool. And you can, it almost feels like how that would sound on those big avenues down in Figueroa and Flower and Fifth Street where it's just like you could imagine the echo going off like that. Well, that was, so DVDs kind of came to prominence in the mid-90s. And I remember I had started bartending in 96 and like one of the first things. things I bought was a nice TV and a DVD player. And Heat was in that, I can't remember when it came out.

That was one of the first DVDs that just, like it was an experience. Yeah. And now it'd be primitive. Everyone's got awesome setups now. But that bank robbery scene, you know, also in your living room, he had decent TV. The picture's clear. It was the first time I ever felt like I was at the movies at my own house. And of course, I was stoned out of my mind.

So it was like freaking out, like eating sourpies. patch kids and just watch it. Well, because it's also an action scene that's on the level of anything like diehard or lethal weapon, but it has none of the fakeness to it where there's like guys saying funny lines to each other or you see it coming from a mile away or it's like, well, he's got to fight this guy because this is the second command of the bad guys and the second good guy has to fight him. It's none of that stuff, but it's just as cool or, you know, it's just as exciting as predator or lethal weapon or diehard. Well, I'll go further. What 15 minute action scene is better? That's a 15 minutes scene.

It might even be 20 minutes. Yeah. But like if I'm flipping channels and that's about to come on, I'm done. Yeah. If we're within a half an hour of that scene. Yeah, it's like, all right, I'm going to stick around. That's the other thing about Heat is that it came out at a time, and you've talked about this all the time, but the way that these movies would insinuate themselves into your

life through cable. Yeah. And Heat is a movie that has all these huge, these distinct parts that you're like, I'm just going to, I'm going to watch until this happens. I'm going to watch until Jeremy Piven shows up or I'm going to watch. until Henry Rollins gets thrown through the door. And you can, you know, you watch it in these 35-minute chunks. It almost felt like a long television movie or something like that

that you could watch over a couple of nights. It had like a second and a third life because DVD helped. But then, as you said, like the cable channels really took off in the mid-90s and you have a whole package. Yeah, it's a three-hour thing. Yeah, it's a three-hour thing. Yeah. And you jump in whenever you want.

And there were a couple movies like that. Like the fugitive was like that. Yeah. I think the fugitive had a second life. it was so easy to jump in and out of that one. But the heat, you know, it's long. It doesn't help from TV purposes. It has not translated to TNT or any of those.

It really has to be movie cable because on T&T, it's four hours. Or they'd have to chop 40 minutes out of it or whatever. But what struck me when I watched last night, so many people in their prime or their post-prime, and not just the Niro Puccino and Michael, man, but like it's seismic. best movie. It's Val Kilmer at probably his most interesting.

I don't know. I think it's his best movie, but... It's still movie star, like, super attractive Kilmer, but you can see his faces aged a little bit. He's got a little bit more gruff in his voice, got like a little bit more character. Because he was, you know, when you see Top Gun and you see Kilmer and Cruz, I don't know,

it's hard to tell. Like, those guys were like neck and neck in terms of their, oh, these are the next two big movie stars. And he kind of brought Kilmer back. Yeah. And then there was like a couple year window after that were, you know, the best analogy was you'd think you would have thought like a Johnny Depp type of second act for him. And he had the Michael Douglas movie, the Lion movie that he made Dr. Moreau, which was, and all of a sudden, he made the blind movie.

The shadow. Was that the, the saint? The saint was the thing that he was going to make a big, that was supposed to be his sort of entree into like a franchise or something like that. You're trolling me right now. I know. I love the saint. The saint should have been a franchise. But it wasn't, you know what I mean? And it's like, the saint was great. Yeah. And then you see, different things that he probably I mean, who knows what happens if he's in Hunter for October or if he's in any one of these movies. I think he was a

super weirdo. Kilmer? Yeah. I mean, even in the 90s, I think he was too weird. Yeah. Chuck Closterman has a great piece he did like Kilmer. When he was full weird. Yeah. But I think he was always weird. I think that hurt him. Like Johnny Depp's weird, but not in a way where people are afraid to hire

him. Yeah. And Johnny Depp obviously has found the five people who understand his weirdness and they just happen to be like Tim Burton and Gore Brinsky and they make multi-million dollar movies. I found you and Sean. So you have De Niro and Puccini. You have Kilmer ever. Oh, yeah.

You have the birth of John Voigt as all of a sudden becoming a character actor. Yeah, and it launched like his whole character thing. You have five guys who became the guys that weren't their names. So West Studi is basically Last to Mohicans bad guy. Yes. Buffalo Bill from Silence of Lambs, Ted Levine. Great.

And he's like so, he's so cool in this movie. He's like, were shimbing fat person? You don't know what pain is, lady. You have Bubba Gump. Michael T. Williamson. You have Wayne Groh. Who's just Wayne Groh. I don't even think he has run in.

He's now signing eight autographs as Wayne Groh. Now I'm going to go super, super, super, I-M-D-B dark on your hair. Silent Rage guy. Who's that? Brian Libby. From Silent Rage. He's in Shawshank.

He plays one of the, one of the buddies in Shawshank. He's the bad guy. in Silent Raid. He's one of those guys. He's a great that guy. Who's he in Heat? He's one of the cops. Oh, wow. He's in the Pacino team. So there's a couple other guys. There's William Fitchner, who's in Armageddon and a bunch of 90s stuff. He plays Van Sant, the money, like the money laundering guy.

Tom Noonan. Tom Noonan. Internet. Yeah, and he's the one who invents the Internet. You know, why he's like, his stuff is just out there. Telcom. It's just out there. All you know is grab it. I can grab it. 13.9 million. It's true. That movie and Sanjovoke in the dead invented the internet. Yeah. Hank Azaria.

Yep. Dennis Hayesberg, who went on to become the president in 24. Jeremy Piven with no hair. Jeremy Piven is just a one-off scene? I couldn't tell, is that considered a cameo or is that really all Jeremy Piven could do at the time? That was it. Yeah. He's in like PCU, right?

Yeah. He doesn't want us to remember he was in that movie because he did not have the Ari-Hare. Yeah. Dr. He'll thyself. He doesn't have, he has not yet gotten the Ari-Hare. Two incredible cameos. Henry Rollins wasn't even a cameo. He was in like five scenes.

He's like a key part. Nobody remembers who Henry Rollins is now, unless you're like in our age range. But Henry Rollins had to run there with MTV, The Liar Song, and a bunch of them. He was in that movie with Christy Swanson and Charlie Sheen, the Chase, right? And then Tone Loke. Oh, yeah. Which is that cameo is not age well from a who the hell is that guy perspective. Right.

In the moment, it was like, hey, that's Tone Loke. I love all those scenes, the one at the chop shop, and then he goes and sees Tone Loke at the, at B.J's on Alvarado at 2am. Yeah. And then four women. Ashley Judd, peak Ashley Judd. Absolutely. He's never looked better in a movie. I've never liked her more in a movie.

Diana Venora never totally made it. Stage actors has done a bunch of different stuff. But he's actually, I love their relationship. She's really great. Yeah. It shouldn't work in every scene, but it's actually good. And it's messed up. Natalie Portman, second movie ever.

Right, right after the professional, right? Or right before it? And you could have, if you're talking about cutting down the movie, maybe take out every Natalie Portman scene. Right. So we mentioned L.A. Takedown. And I think that you feel, it feels like sometimes like the Dennis Haysberg, plot line and the Natalie Portman plot line feel like television plotlines.

Like if you're on episode nine of the season of heat, you're like, okay, yeah, let's find out why like the Natalie Portman character is depressed or how it's going for this guy being a short order cook at a diner. But in the movie heat, it feels a little bit extraneous. Although I think that one of the things that this film does really well is show how all of these people's lives just kind of intersect it with this, this like perfect moment for all this stuff to happen. Right.

Yeah. And the last female, Amy Brennaman. Yeah, Judge and Amy. Incredible Amy Brennaman run there in the mid-90s. NYPD Blue, she's great. Yeah. I immediately had a crush on her. I was like, I'd love to meet her and marry her, if possible.

Then she was in this. Yeah. She left NYPD Blue to make movies? And I think that she just wound up doing judging Amy for a few years. Is that right? Oh, you left out a key one. Which one? Daylight was sliced alone.

Oh, right. How dare you? And now she's had a comeback with the leftovers. I always liked her. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about her relationship with Neil McCauley, because I always find their meat cute to be really weird, where it says like they meet in that bookstore, you know,

and she walks by them and then they see each other again at the diner, and she's just like, what's your book about? He's like, medals. It's not exactly like the stuff that Tinder dreams are made out of, but they really wind up hitting it off. Should we just go to the lessons? Yeah, sure. Let's do some of it.

We can do tangents off. the lessons. This is one of the lessons from heat. Never fall for a guy who starts courting you by saying, lady, why are you so interested in what I read and what I do? That's it. Walk away. That's not making yourself emotionally available.

What way? This is not meant to last. And that's how their courting starts. Why does she like De Niro? I mean, talk about having. I think she's lonely. She's like from Kentucky and she's just like working as a graphic designer. I can't believe I know all this about like Eidi,

Eadie, the character. But she's working as a. graphic designer in Santa Monica and she says that the city is kind of lonely and that's when Neil's like, I am alone. I am not lonely. You know, remember that? And they just kind of hit it off. I don't know. He goes up and shows her the algae, the way that the sea looks like algae at night or whatever. He talks about going to Tahiti and he has that whole speech. And they just, they're two crazy kids in love. Well, that was a minor lesson for me. This is one of the major lessons. There's five major lessons in heat. And this is lesson number one and something I hope

my daughter remember someday. Never fall for a guy with no furniture. That's really good point It's great Yeah He's like I'll get around to it You're gonna get around to furniture That makes me nervous Why don't you have furniture

You don't have a TV So you think not having furniture Is a bigger deal Than falling in love with a guy With a reckless And debilitating gambling habit Like the Val Kilmer character has At least that's something

No furniture is like nothing The guy can be gone tomorrow And Ashley Judge shoes It's just like he comes home He's just robbed this This bank bank truck and he's just like, oh, sorry, baby, I had to pay off some deaths. You know, I had the game.

I took a wash in the Super Bowl and she's just, it's so mad. Well, that's, you brought up the Netflix and it struck me last night. This would have been the greatest 10 episode Netflix series of a lot time because we never see the Val Kilmer Gambling problem. We don't have the scene where he drives to Foxwoods and loses $58,000 and three hours playing high stakes black check. He drives out to Arizona to get the detonation stuff for the truck. down his way back.

You know he stops at Marung? No question. I want to see Valcomber. I want to see him on 7th Street get killed by the last ace coming around the corner. I'll get the money tomorrow. You better.

I want all those scenes. We didn't get any of those. It was just like, yeah, he has a gambling problem. Does Val Kilmer? Is he the toughest guy ever to have that haircut? Yeah. In that movie, the blonde. It was really the only area

you could have gotten away with the haircut and been a bad guy. Yeah, like it's a holdover from the late 80s. Nobody's told him that he doesn't have to tuck a gap t-shirt into baggy jeans with a blunt. Because if you see that guy now, you're just like, I bet that guy does not rob banks. Well, now he would have a bunch of tattoos, right?

He'd have some crazy haircut with like, whatever, and he'd have piercings and a bunch of tattoos. Like, oh, I get it. This guy robs banks. But you watch that movie there, and it's like, is this guy like in the fabulous Baker Boys with Jeff Bridges? Yeah. Let's see, what's going on?

Yeah, from a Netflix standpoint, the stories that would have helped the most, the cook, Dennis Hayesbert, totally in that. Natalie Portman would have been great. Yeah. I don't know if she belongs in this movie. What's Natalie Portman like at school? What school do you think? Like she's, what is she going to? She's going to Santa Monica High? She's going to Harvard. No, she's going to a private school, but she's bounced around. Yeah. She was at the center for a year. She got kicked out.

She's smoking weed behind the bleachers. Yeah, no question. Telling everybody there's stepdad's a cop and that she's, it's okay. No question. Yeah, so you have that. You have, I would have like to know more about Van Zand. Yeah. And his whole business and John Voigt. All we hear is like Cayman Islands offshore. He's like, get me the spreadsheets for the Cayman Islands offshore. That's true. Cayman Islands was a big.

Huge. Huge. Huge time for the Cayman's. Yeah, a lot of movies are Cayman Islands-y. So if they said the heat is going to be on Netflix, they're remaking it. Okay. It's going to be 12 episodes. They're blowing out the movie.

Michael Mann's involved. He's doing it. So we're starting with same premise, cop and bank robber who are basically the same, except for one central difference. I mean, it doesn't have to be Netflix either. Amazon Prime, Hulu. I don't know if HBO now has made a commitment to doing like a 12-episode giant. They'd probably just have it on HBO.

But let's say one of these places does this. Would you be excited or would you not be excited? If it was a straight remit, I think that there's parts of heat that I think would be very interesting to see in the modern world. 2016 heat. Right. So here's the thing, though. I think that all of these kinds of movies that involve surveillance or investigations

are ultimately much more interesting without the internet and without like, oh, we can just read his emails and find it. Like the departed is the right at the edge where like they're tracking guys based on their like Motorola or their Erickson brick phones. Remember in the part of like it's all this stuff in the pocket with the phone and they're triangulating it? Heat doesn't have any of that. It's great that they actually have to follow these guys around and watch them with

night vision cameras. So I'd really like that rather than we're just sitting in a truck and we're like reading all these guys text messages and emails and everything like that there's a little bit it's like almost feels like cheating so i wouldn't want that that's part of the problem maybe that would be part of the charm you remake it in the internet world where you have to make it so that we're we're not old school oh man it was better when there's but i still don't know if like i enjoyed you know like for instance this season of homeland is fine but it's pretty boring to just watch a bunch of people do stuff on computers no matter i'm out yeah that's why i'm out yeah so i just i would rather

he'd stick to the streets and get off the net the homeland broke my streak of I fell asleep during the first four episodes. Which, it would have been a DiMaggio, like, 56 fall asleep run. All right, so I have some more lessons. When you're robbing an armored truck, don't call anyone slick. Yeah. Good to know. Yeah.

If he just doesn't say slick, nobody ever catches these guys, Tom Seismore. The one sort of unbelievable thing is the way that they did slick. They hung down on slick. This entire criminal conspiracy is like, you run slick through the back. database, you're going to get the phone book back to it anyway. And then of course, they say slick at BJs, you know? And it just, it totally gets Seismore's character. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little, but you always have reaches in these kind of movies. Yeah. Never leave a living witness. Yeah. Good to know. Apparently. That's the way to take out most of the

witnesses. Just keep going. Just get rid of all the witnesses. Don't take out 80% of the witnesses. Why leave one or two? Do you want to talk now because we're talking about that, that, that witness's thing is what gets Wengro in trouble, right? So he kills a guy and then De Niro feels like... He's making a move, man. He's saying, I had to get it on. I had to get it, man. He's making a move. You have a lot of problems with Wengro's escape in the parking lot of the diner. So they're about to kill Wengro and cop car kind of drives by slowly and Wengro somehow

Spider-Man's out of there. I don't like the whole diner scene because, first of all, when De Niro is repeatedly slamming his face and it's a table, I feel like the other customers would have been more upset about it. They stare them off. They kind of look over, but not. There's like, yeah. Yeah. And then they all leave together.

It just seems like somebody's calling that into the cops. So let's say you and I are at a diner and we see that happen. We see one guy slam another guy's head into the table four times. Right after a huge armored truck robbery that had four dead cops. Yeah. Which was ex, which was perpetrated by four guys. Is your move just stare straight ahead of me? Chris, let's start talking about the Celtics.

Is it we're getting up and leaving? No, you just, you don't move. You just stay there. You don't move. Okay. So they go out and Neil, who I think is a really smart, thoughtful criminal. Definitely. Very good at what he does.

Really good. Just always makes the right move. Starts beating him up. They have the trunk ready that's wrapped. The lining, which is great. You see that trunk of the lining? You're in trouble. People have put a lot of thought into your murder.

Hits them a couple times. Cop comes around. And Neil De Niro just kind of loses track. a way and grow. He's like a safety. Like he loses Odell Beckham on the 84-yard pass. Yeah, but it's not even like, just keep your foot on him. It's like if three defensive backs look the other way while they're supposed to be looking at Odell. Just put your foot on him. He's right underneath you. What are he doing? It's a much shorter movie then. Yeah. I guess. To me, that and then in the bank scene, the amount of Pacino's combing down

the street for 10 minutes. All they're doing is walking from the bank to the car. Valcomers walk from the bank to the car. It's like a mile long, even though it's 50 feet away. Yeah. And he's just walking and then Pacino's gaining another block and another, he's getting out of the car with his gun. And Falcumers are still making the 10 steps. Yeah.

Little timing issue for me on that one. But that's part of the thing that's really interesting. They actually almost do that scene in real time. I mean, yeah. So what's another lesson you have there? After you steal Barabonds from a criminal, don't try to sell them back to him. Can I add a little bit of a footnote onto that? Yeah, please do.

Don't do the resale in an abandoned parking lot or abandoned drive-in parking lot on Centinella. You're right. Yeah. Maybe just a little bit more public. Well, like MacArthur Park, I don't know. Maybe that's a little dangerous. But you just, if all you're doing is a simple exchange, maybe don't do it in the most remote place possible. Yeah, I didn't like that one.

There's no better threat than I'm talking to an empty telephone. Oh, my God. If I call you and ever say that, just run. Because there's a dead man on the end of this line. It's a dead man on this line. Great, De Niro. De Niro's never, I think this and Goodfellas were his two best, I'm just pissed off and I want to wrench somebody's neck faces. Yeah.

He just had it over and over again. When you're criminal friends, your buddies, your compatriots, when you're planning something with them and they tell you, one guy says the bank is worth the risk. And the other says, for me, the action is the juice. Wait, so you got to give this a little bit. Finish the lesson. Those aren't good reasons to rob a bank. I need more. The action is the juice.

It's like, well, why is it worth the risk? It's like, well, why is it worth the risk? Yeah, that one. Because he's got to pay off his gamblers and get Charlene back. Yeah, so I want more info from him, Valcomer. And then Tom Seismore is like, for me, the action is the juice. It's like, so you're a complete psychopath? Well, okay, but here's the thing is that the funniest part about that scene is that Neil's like, look, you've got T-Bonds, you've got real estate.

She takes good care of you. You're all set up. Why does De Niro know so much about his financial portfolio? Right. He's just like, I didn't know you worked at Northwestern Mutual. And then the best part is that this is like, piece. If you want to pinpoint the greatest moment in Tom Seismore's acting career, it's right here where he takes like a solid 10 seconds of beat,

and then he blinks 50 times. And he goes, for me, the action is the juice. Yeah, and he's dancing in the ring with De Niro and his pride, too. You can tell he's feeling it. He's like, I'm going to show my 10 seconds. I'm showing this scene to my grandkids. When I die, this is going to my obit reel. This is it.

The action is the juice. Going right at De Niro. He told his girlfriend the night before. De Niro and I are going head to head. Yeah, the, that's another slight stretch here. Yeah. I think Neil is too smart to rob the bank when he knows there's that much heat. Right.

I just think he's like, you know what, guys, what's wait a year? We'll get the heat off us, then we'll make another move. Well, this guy, he's got to get out of town with Eadie. Right. They have to go on vacation. Doesn't have enough money? Just going to New Zealand. How much money do you need to go to?

He lives in New Zealand. Part of it is that he has a lot of money tied up in some other job, right, that they tried to do and that it didn't work out. So he had paid all up front for that. And then I think that, you know, he's not spending money on furniture. And apparently he's not in T-Bonds in real estate. Oh, this is a good one. This almost could have been a major lesson, but I had as a minor lesson. Don't stay in the car patiently waiting for your psychotic criminal boyfriend if he mysteriously entered a massive hotel without giving you.

you a heads up. And 10 minutes later, everyone is pouring out of the hotel and dozens of police cars and fire engines have arrived. I'm going to say just drive away. And you're on your way to the airport. Have you ever... You're on the airport. I think in two times of my life, have I ever been like, I need to stop on my way to the airport and both times have been for nicorette patches. But both times were pretty sketchy when I did it. Like, I think that my Uber driver and my wife were both just like, this is insane. We're on our way to the airport. Hey, what are you doing? Yeah. Juliet, our friend Juliet loves these movies where the women have terrible choices in men, basically.

Yeah. And that the whole movie is centered around. She shouldn't have picked this guy. She should be with this guy and said that's like the Robcom Foundation. He's like, you can leave now or on your own. You take, do you take this, you know? Nobody's ever had a worst choice in a man than Amy Brennan in this movie. Oh, it's really bad.

I don't care if you've just moved to L.A. and you don't know anyone. Because at least the Diane Vinora Al Pacino, like they just so fully know where they are in their lives together. And it's like, you know, Amy Brennam is really in for a surprise. She's watching the news. And it's like, yeah, the biggest bank robbery, disaster of all time. 20 people are dead. Neil comes strolling home. She's like, did you do this?

He's like, ah. It's a book about metals. That's why I needed it. Yeah, she should have run. All right, here's the major lessons that I have. Never fall for a guy with no furniture. We covered that. don't let word get out on the street that it's okay to steal your stuff.

No, never, never. I got to say, I feel that way myself. Well, here's the thing. What are you going to do about it? Oh, I might do something. Are you going to send me and Sean to a drive-in on Sentinel? They may do something. Package of T-shirts.

Nobody's stealing stuff from Bill Simmons. Never fall for God, no furniture. You know the risk. You don't have to be there if it rains, you get wet. Yeah. I actually think that could, that's a great high school senior yearbook quote. Yeah. I already graduated by the time he came out.

It's a good fortune cookie. Yeah. If it rains, you get wet. It's a fact. Know the risk. If you can do something, do it. It might rain. You might get wet.

If you have a regular life that revolves around barbecue and ballgames, your life sucks. Yes. That's awesome. Can we talk a little bit about like the domestic life of Vincent Hanna here? because my favorite parts of this movie are one of my favorite parts of this movie. When he comes home after various long days at the office and by long days at the office, I mean like investigating murders and major robbery homicides. And he comes home and he's just like,

I'm sorry if the chicken got overcooked. It's such a great line. And she's just like, I'm okay, whatever. And then the best is when he comes home and Ralph is there. Yeah, Ralph. And he goes, I'm very angry Ralph. You can lounge around here on her sofa. and her ex-husband's dead tech post-modernistic bullshit house if you want to,

but you do not get to watch my fucking television. It's amazing moment. And it's such a shady television. And he takes the TV. Yeah. Shut up, Ralph. Sit out. It's,

and she's like, this is what I have to do to get closure. I have to demean myself with Ralph. I'm wasted on Prozac and alcohol. I'm stoned on grass and Prozac. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, that is a messed up relationship.

Babe me, Braderman, in De Niro, actually, I feel better about that relationship. Yeah, it's healthier. A lot less baggage. So, and the last one, obviously, the famous one, and a great lesson for anything in life. Have no attachments, have nothing in your life that you can't walk away from in 30 seconds if you spot the heat around the corner. What I love about this, first of all, great advice for a criminal to another criminal. They work the title of the movie into the signature quote.

It's not like spotlight. The heat. Yeah, heat. You're right. Spotlight? Spotlight. Because this is a Corolla bit, but when movies shoehorn it in, and Corolla sometimes thinks they came up with the title before the plot.

But like face-off's a good example. They have a whole scene where Chavote's like, face off, face off. He just keeps repeatedly says his title. This one very subtle, but the movie's called Heat, and it's about the heat around the corner, and it's about the decisions you make and whether, how much do you care about somebody when you're a criminal? Yeah.

Is it, who should you be loyal to? Like, if you remember, the heat's around the corner with him and Valcomer and Valcomer gets shot, technically he should have listened to himself and left, but he loves Valcomer. This is another example of why this can't really be remade. It's because that concept of leaving everything you have in 30 seconds and vanishing, I think only the best greatest criminals could probably pull away of that. You'd have to be planning to do that for quite some time. Because like, even if I had interest in doing that, even if I was like, I'm going to walk out of this place

and I'm going to be gone in 30 seconds. Don't do that. I'm not going to do that. But I'm just saying, I wouldn't be able to do it. There's too much of a digital footprint. People would just be able to go into my email and be like, oh, you bought a plane ticket to Phoenix. Yeah.

You know, like you wouldn't be able to, I think that back then you paid for things and checks and cash more. You know what I mean? It was a little harder to track your money. I don't know. It just seems like it would be impossible to even pull off the basic premise of this movie now. You feel very safe and content about the fact that this movie is confined to a specific era and now can't translate to it.

And it's timeless, though. It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel dated, but I don't think that you could do it with a lot of the stuff that's happening now. Everything leads to, at the end, the heat is around the corner. Yeah, and it's a... He's got 30 seconds to decide

whether to roll with Brennerman or not. And unlike when he left Valcomer or when he kept Valcomer and saved them, he leaves Brennan behind. Right. Now, do you think he's leaving Brennan behind because he has to, you know, he's getting chased,

but do you think it's because he wants to keep her safe? I think he's just like, this lady's a loser. If she's still here, chaos in the hotel, like, I gotta get rid of her. I don't want to raise kids with her. Man's, like, view of the end of this movie is very telling because he was like, this guy winds up dying

with the person who, the only person in the world who truly understands him. Are you okay with the hand touching at the end? Yeah, I think it's amazing. I think it's an incredible moment. I think it's incredible that happens at LAX where all these plans are taking off and landing and it's like departures and arrivals.

and I think the music is amazing at the end with, I think it's a great end credit. The movie track. And it's very, I find it very moving in a way of way. That's another, that's another thing that could never happen now is nobody's just stumbling into an area where airplanes are taking off and landing with machine guns. We're just like, we're just going to go running across runways. Does Pacino catch De Niro? Let's, let's talk about that.

No, I think there was. That was really unlikely. There's Pacino's working on two packs a day. There's no, you know. Yeah, he's been up for two days. It's impossible. And De Niro had a really good head start. The reason why this should show in the movie theater every once in a while,

because a couple of these scenes are amazing. And the scene that doesn't hold up on your normal TV versus in the theater is that airplane's in. And the planes and the lights from the planes. The music is so loud. The noise. It was just such an incredible ending. It's like God smiling over the water or something. I can't remember the name of the Moby song, but it's really, really beautiful.

It's a great ending. I don't have really lessons as much as I have questions. Enduring questions from Heat. I want to know where the guy is that did the Pacino's stunt work when he comes running through the door and tackles Henry Rollins. Oh, yeah. Because there's a shot of him, and it looks like Joe Jaravicious. It's like all of a sudden, Pacino is 22 years younger

and is running slant patterns for somebody. And he's just like, come over, he jumps over in Ottoman and just tackles Henry Rollins. And then it's one of the great all-time cutaway. this is a stunt guy with a wig and then it cuts away and Pacino is like I got you you son of a bitch like holding him right um the other one and this is one of the weirdest parts about the movie is has anyone in the history

of American pickup basketball ever interrupted a pickup basketball game to ask where you can get a loaf of bread which is what Val Kilmer does at the end when he goes to Charlene's apartment and she's just like gives him the hand gesture that says the cops are here you remember that? Big, big flaw in the movie. And he goes up to that pickup game. Those guys are playing in the dark.

first of all. And he goes, hey guys, hey guys, they all stop. Like, it's not like where they're like, we're playing basketball. You can, like, hang out for a second. And they come over to the gate. He's like, where can I get some bread around here? And they act like it's a totally normal question. Oh, good question.

When is the last time anyone's ever asked you, where can I get some bread? Gluten free? What are you looking for? A sourdough? That's true. Yeah. That seems very flawed because there's a massive manhunt for these people that destroyed downtown and murdered all these cops.

They know he's coming to see Ashley Jedd. They know what he looks like. Yeah, he got a haircut. It's not like he gets a haircut. It's like a facial reconstructive surgery. It's not bad. He's also limping because he's had his clavicle shattered by a bullet. Yeah.

He's limping. He looks in pain. Gets out of his car and they're like, yeah, let him go. He checked out. He checked out as Val Kilmer. I'm going to do so. Oh, you have more? No, no.

That's pretty much. Those are my two main questions. Do you have some more lessons? No. What I do have is some Pacino lines I wanted to do. Okay. Give me all you got. Give me all you got. By the time I get to Phoenix. This can't be karaoke. That scene is my favorite scene in the movie, actually.

It's incredible. The chop shop scene when he's just like, did you fall in love last night? I'll settle for that. You fell in love last night. I'm okay with that. He's still in set of a woman mode for the first hour of the movie. You can tell him that's all improv too because the two other guys. in the scene with him or just like what the hell

is going on? Chino's onset for today. Don't waste my motherfucking time! I enjoyed that. You can get killed walking your doggy. Is that with a good one?

Who is he talking to with that scene? I can't remember. Is that Hank Azaria? It's one of the two black guys. Oh yeah, right? Yeah, yeah.

Who was the other black guy? One was Tomloke. The other was somebody I didn't really recognize. I think it was Ricky. He was a comedian back now. I think he was like on deaf comedy, Jan.

Shut up, Ralph. Sit down. What we got. What we got. Ricky Harris. Ricky Harris. Right. The end when he thinks De Niro's gone.

What we got? Bon voyage, motherfucker. You were good. There's like, there's a couple of scenes where like it feels like they didn't quite get the chronology right because there's a bunch of scenes in a row where Alpuccino's like eight hours, eight hours and they're gone to get a new exit plan. They like these keeps talking about their exit strategy and like they're out and he's just like, he keeps being obsessed with this.

And it's like, if you stopped worrying so much about whether or not they were able to get plane tickets and just pursued them. I think you would have caught up. Let's go after him. All I am is all I'm going after. Yeah, I love that. Good line. Yeah. Really good line.

I am what I am and I do what I do. And then the best one, only because of the pauses, which were vaguely reminiscent of Pat Summerall doing murder, she wrote. Because she's got a great ass. And you got your head all the way up it. I don't understand. That seems incredible. That is pretty amazing. Azaria has no idea what is going on in that scene.

It's the best 10 seconds of Pacino's career. I want to know if that was in the script or if Pacino ad libid. Even if it is, the delivery is so on Pluto that, like, you know that nobody in that scene knew it was coming. Do you think, is Azaria just overmatched by the amount of acting talent in the room? Or was he playing a guy who's overwhelmed? I think he's playing a guy who's overwhelmed. I felt like he was overmatched in the Pacino scene. He was kind of like, oh my God, this guy's a maniac.

What does he play again? Like a suit salesman from Vegas or something like that? He's having sex with Ashley Jed? Yeah. Oh, we have a couple more things here. There's a flip side to that coin. There's a seven second pause. What if I got to take you down?

Incredible. Just incredible. Has there ever been a better? I'm rooting for the bad guys. And I don't know why, but I really want the bad guys to getaway movie than this movie. Yeah. All these guys are bad guys. They've murdered cops.

They just shot armored truck security guards. They're all taking hostages. Yeah, they're taking hostages. They blew up a truck. And he's like, see that's, hey, slick. See that stuff coming out of their ears? They can't hear you. It's like, these are horrible guys.

And I'm like, come on, get away. Just keep shooting. You'll get out of there. Come on, Val, get them. Yeah. Tom Seismar grabs a little kid in the park as like a shield. I'm like, oh, good move, good move. That's also a moment where Pacino makes that shot to save the kid and kill Sysmore.

Risky. It's probably one of the greatest, like, long-range shots in, like, American combat history. And he just, like, drops the gun and goes off running towards the supermarket where Kilmer and Pichino is not even a high-five to anybody or anything. It's 480 yards away. Yeah, I can't remember. There have been other bad guy movies, but this is the one where it's, if you really take a step back. The bank robbery scene is very crazy because you think that they're just. trapped. And I don't, I, you know, this is another reason why in 95 there wasn't as much

information about movies going into them. So I don't think I even knew how long the movie was. I thought the bank robbery scene was going to be the last scene in the movie. Right. So you're just kind of like, I guess this is it. And then it's like, oh my God. They got away and now it's another hour of them running. And then DeNaro's in the car and he's like, and he's like, what's Van Zand's address? And where's Wayne Grove? Yeah. And Danny Trao. He goes to Danny Trao's house. It's like, oh, we're going to go find Wayne, bro. This is a special bonus. Wayne Grove needed to be in Honolulu by then, though.

Like, if you've ran it out that crew, you're on the first plane to Thailand. You cannot stay in Los Angeles. Are you pro or con him hunting down Wayne Grove? Oh, absolutely pro. Are you pro or con Wayne Grove just randomly murdering a young prostitute? So what's up with that plot line? That's another television plot line. I think it was really they needed the Pacino hug with the mom.

Yeah, and it gives and it shows like the, I mean, I mean, I thought that that actually did a good job. You're talking about, like, sympathizing with the bad guys. Like, that actually does a good job of showing, like, you know, just how destructive these guys are, you know, and even though you can appreciate, I mean, the thing that's so cool about this is, and a lot of Michael Man movies are about this, is they're about the minutia of work, right? Yeah.

So they're about the process and the details that go into the solving or the setting up of crimes. And that's what's the best part about, like, after the truck robbery, and there's this awesome shot where it's inside of the car. car and Pacino rolls up and gets out. And he doesn't even talk. All his guys are coming up to him and being like, this guy saw that. They're the fingerprints on this.

The detonation device is exotic. And he doesn't even have to ask. He's just pointing and nodding. And you can just, you just immediately feel like you're working with them and you're learning so much, even if, you know, it's a movie. But that's the thing that's so incredible about this movie is it's attention to detail.

Well, I agree with everything you just said. And I thought in that, I think it was the Rolling Stone thing. was out that came out to sick. Yeah, it was like Michael Mann as told to thing. I felt like Michael Mann felt this way about the movie, but it was good to hear him say that. So here's this quote. If you track the movie from a storytelling point of view, who are you supposed to empathize with at the end of the film? You want Bob to get away and you want Al to get Bob. I love when people call De Niro Bob. I can't do it. I just call him Robert or De Niro. So you want Bob to get away,

you want Al to get it Bob. Both are true simultaneously. And the two fuse, there's a fusion in the end of the two men in this perfect counterpoint. It's not complicated, but it has complexity. It's ordered in symmetry. And so the way that these stories are told and how these lives are opposed against each other is maybe why we're still talking about heat. So I think he went in that movie. And he's like, I want to create a movie where ultimately the audience, there's a chase scene at the end. Yeah. And the audience is rooting for both guys equally. Yeah. And I'm going to spend two hours and 35 minutes getting to this point. And I think a huge part about the way the movie makes you feel at the end is the fact that it ends with those guys holding hands,

instead of Pacino gets De Niro, and then all the cops come, and Pacino and Diane Vinora have like a quiet moment where he's just like, I guess he finally felt the heat. You know, it's like, it's not, it's not Pacino's movie. It's both of their movies, and I think that you're left with thinking about their relationship,

how they were similar, the one way they were different, which is one guy is trying to protect people and another guy doesn't care about protecting people. and even though they're the same in terms of their dedication to something and the way that that thing defines who they are, like it's really, it's a lot deeper than that.

It makes me really does make you, it makes me quite emotional when I watch the end of it. Does it make you emotional that I ruined his whole 30 seconds heat around the corner thing because he did go back for Val Kilmer? No, I was their hypocrite. I never really thought, Neil.

I thought you got away with the heats around the corner. Why are you going back to get Val Kilmer and a shattered clavicle? Yeah. Just start running. You have a bag of money. Just go. We didn't talk about the diner soon. Yeah, let's do it. So there's an, the interesting thing about this is that when Michael Mann and Art Linson decided that they were going to make this movie and they decided that they wanted to offer it to Pacino and De Niro, they did it. They had that conversation at the diner that they wound up shooting. Kate Manalini's. Yeah. Is that? Now defunct. Right. Right. So that was like a very cool little. So Kate Manilini's, it's on Beverly Hills. It's in Beverly Hills on Wilshire. And they had a big poster of the two of them face. to face.

Okay. But remember there was a whole internet legend in the 2000s that they weren't in the same scene when they filmed it. Right, that there's like over the shoulder shots or whatever. It's like they never, they couldn't stand each other and all these different reasons for it. And meanwhile, the end of the movie, they're in the same scene for the last 10 minutes. They're holding hands like, I'm pretty sure they were okay with each other.

Yeah. The whole narrative. I don't know why he chose to just show the two angles of De Niro's face with Pacino's head in the background and then vice versa. But he never did the wide shot of them. and I kind of respect it. You had to have had a reason. It's an incredible scene.

The movie's leading up to it. You want it to happen. You don't know if it's going to happen. In the theater, I'm like, are these guys ever? It's almost like in basketball. You get like, let's say LeBron and Kobe had actually played each other in the 08 finals. The 909 finals are like, are these guys going to guard each other? It's like, oh, they're guarding each other.

Oh, here we go. I thought the brilliant part about that scene is that the conversation is weird. Like the cover, like, when the guy is just like, I have these dreams, everybody I've ever worked, like these cases I've worked, they're looking back at me with eight ball hemorrhages. It's like, and Entonero's like, oh, I have that, I have a dream where I'm drowning or something like that. And he's like, they're analyzing each other's dreams. And then they have that conversation where it's just like, I will not hesitate, you know, blah, blah. But there's something about how idiosyncratic the conversation is that's perfect. If they just sat down and started yelling at each other and doing all these big shot lines, I think it would have been a little bit distracting.

There's information gathering on both ends. Yeah. And then man tried to make the point in the wrong stone piece that whatever Pacino gleaned in that conversation. Yeah, McCulley slips and seems to say like I'm like, because what does he say like I'm not a monk? The 30 seconds around the corner. Yeah, but he says something where he's like, I'm not, he's like, what are you a monk? And he's like, I got a girl.

Yeah, right. And that gives it away. Right. Yeah. Overrated a little bit, Neil McCauley. Overrated as a criminal. Yeah, but low PR as a criminal. I might have a girlfriend.

I might not. Isn't that the answer? It's a book about medals. Maybe I'm gay. I don't know. I'm a metal guy. I don't know. I don't be furniture.

Who wins the diner scene? I think it's Pacino. I think he's like a little bit. You think he's on the offensive a little? Yeah. I mean, I think that it's hard to say somebody wins because I think that those guys were so dialed into playing the roles. Even though Neil gives something away,

Neil's very cagey. And I think that Vincent is supposed to be like the aggressor and the guy is trying to seduce him into saying something he doesn't want to say. And yeah, so I think that it's Pacino, but it's not because De Niro does a bad job. So it's like a split decision. Pacino wins 115 to 114 in the card, but somebody else had it. 117 to 111 De Niro. And they have to have a rematch.

I wish. I thought De Niro won. Okay. But I'm not attached to it. I mean, Pacino ultimately wins the movie at the end. Because De Niro had no schick at all. Pacino got a little sticky in there. And then at the end, Pacino slightly smiles at the tail end.

Yeah. And it was like De Niro broke him a little bit. Like here we are. Just two guys, Bob and Al. I thought it was fascinating that Michael Mann, like that whole thing he said about how that was basically the scene in the movie is the first take. He wanted the energy of those two going head to head. And I think they didn't do a lot of rehearsal.

I don't think either. Yeah. I don't think they did. Yeah. And he wanted them to just go, boom. Anything else? Do we cover everything? No, I think it's good.

I mean, let me check my list to make sure. Got any more lessons to teach me? Well, the other thing is these guys were never. totally the same after this movie. Took a lot out of them. It's like the 87 finals. I want to look at Petino here. He does a lot of stuff after this

that I feel like is he starts to do a little bit of self-parody and it gets really bad as the career goes on. But after he did his city hall, which is I think like... No, don't. Don't, no, no. Don't, no.

Don't be sort of in deflating the gangster legend a little bit. Devil's advocate. Yeah, pretty sad. The insider, he's great in the insider. It's great in the insider. Any given Sunday, which is his last great moment. You can't really criticize any given Sunday.

It exists in a different plane of existence. He's unbelievable in that movie. Yeah. He's really great. I would say that's one of his four best performances. The whole movie, he's great. And that's it. Then the wheels came off.

So I do think he... Yeah, until 2005. So maybe he did Gantima. The wheels were off in 0-203. Pacheen De Niro kind of gravitated into that weird meet the parents I'll do any movie

just make me an offer stage which I think culminated in 15 minutes with a big Grant Lamb fan Ed Burns He's kind of come back a little bit with the David O. Russell stuff but hasn't done what an amazing performance

by Robert De Niro specifically for God I'm looking here what was from Heat what were the next ones well here's the thing is he had a pretty cool run here. Yeah, he did.

He goes, the fan, sleepers. The fan was awful. Sleeper's not bad. Marvin's room. Awful. Copland. He's good in Copland. Not a huge role.

Great and wagged the dog. Yeah. Jackie Brown, he's phenomenal in. Unbelievable. And then, of course, this is a movie. We could do a complete other podcast about this movie, but Ronan. Oh, you know how I feel about Ronan. Also one of the first great DVDs.

One of the all-time great came to please. One of the great chase scenes ever. It actually has a couple great chasing. Ronan is actually the last one. Ronan is literally the last. I think somewhere around, he was making too many movies. And somewhere around that time, it stopped feeling as special

when De Niro was in a movie, and I'm not sure when. Yeah. And now it's like pretty much when he does a David O. Russell movie, he's pretty good. But otherwise, it's just kind of crap. Both of those guys had rigged it

so that when they released a movie, I remember when Sea of Love was coming out. I was like, Pacino's back. Oh my God. Yeah. This is amazing. Yeah, because that was when those guys would take like two or three years in between the movies yeah and now denaero's making like

the only person who does that now is daniel lewis yeah heat too did you see it still hot heat too what would the heat still around the corner denair's not dead denier just passed out was fine he was like hey i'm here still what's going on edie saved them they blood transfusion he made it oh what about heat two natalie portman's character as a cop now oh oh i would see that she's chasing belcuma man directing natalie mortman as a homicide detective in Los Angeles and she comes across someone, maybe it could be another, a female bank robber.

She falls in love with Neil's son. Neil Jr. Neil Jr. He had a son, we didn't realize. With Danny Trehouse's daughter. It's, uh, yeah,

I would see Heat too. Yeah. That'd be a good one. Would you reboot it with any actors who you think would be good at squaring off against each other? Who would be the two you'd want to put up? So who is the modern equivalent

of the Heat Diner scene? I don't think there is. I don't think anyone means as much of this generation as De Niro and Pacino met in the mid-90s to people who love movies. I think the two guys who are up there, I think, would be, for me, would probably be Downey and Denzel.

Not on the De Niro-Puccino. No, of course not. But in terms of like movie stars who have acting chops, who would be really interesting to see the two of them square off. I think Downy and DeM. Who wouldn't be Downy and Leo?

Can't we argue that Denzel is kind of, But I still think that when Denzel really grabs the stick shift, it goes. You know, it's like, yeah. I think he still has incredible moves. He's getting, like, in flight, he's still like, oh, Denzel's an incredible actor. Daniel de Lewis and Downey? No, I feel like it has to be like guys who feel like that you'd see them on Wilshire.

You'd see them on Figaroa. You'd see them in it. Oh, that's an open challenge to Daniel DeLuis. I mean, of course. You don't think I can do that movie? You don't think I could do it? I'll do it. He would probably move to Los Angeles for two whole years and working at an abandoned driving.

Just to feel like he knew what it was late there. I'm working at an old blockbuster on Fairfax. Don't you tell me what I can and conduce are. I'll do whatever I want, Chris Ryan. All of our accents now are Larry Mow Jr. Exit. I give it a thousand thumbs up. Yeah.

I think it's, I don't think it's aged at all. It has it. There's nothing wrong with this movie. Great. Like even Pulp Fiction, I feel. feel like has aged a tiny bit. And some of those movies from the 90s, this one has not. This one could be released in the theaters right now.

Heat 2, Natalie Portman coming to theaters in 2019. Would you rather have Heat 2 or Netflix 12 episode Modern Heat? Heat too, because I want the big screen experience. I want the same thing. There you go. Yeah. Chris Ryan, pleasure. Happy 20th anniversary, my friend. Thank you.

You too.