The Rewatchables - 'Inception' With Jason Concepcion, Mallory Rubin, Sean Fennessey, and Andrew Gruttadaro

Episode Date: March 22, 2018

The Ringer’s Jason Concepcion, Mallory Rubin, Sean Fennessey, and Andrew Gruttadaro dream big and embark on the ambitious task of recording a podcast within a podcast within a podcast to capture the essence of 'Inception,' Christopher Nolan's 2010 visual spectacle starring Leonardo DiCaprio, Ellen Page, and Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Ringer web store here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So, you want to start scoring amazing deals at incredible hotels. Download the Hotel Tonight app now. Rewatchables! I'm Jason Concepcion here with Sean Fennacy. It's me. Hello. Andrew Grudadero. That's it. You nailed it. Woo!

Mallory Rubin. Hello, everyone. We're going to talk about Inception, released in 2010, summer of 2010, the movie about Leo DiCaprio going into the dreams of Sillian Murphy and implanting an idea there to take root. It's a simple story. It's a simple story. It actually is kind of a simple story.

Within a story, within a story, within a story. Mr. Cobb has a job of a workplace. Not exactly. We access people's dreams. There's nothing quite like it. Let's go shake him up. Inception. How do we get out?

We're going to have to improvise. I am impressed. I saw this in the theater. I enjoyed it. I think it's one of Nolan's two really good movies. A director, hashtag, overrated. We agree on that. It's a take, but I think if you examine Nolan's movies,

you might come down on your side of that. I feel that he's slightly overrated. And he often films incoherent action scenes, which work in this movie. Yeah, I agree. There's something not understandable about this movie, which is why this is a good movie for a podcast. Did you guys find that it was actually more confusing to you than ever, rewatching it to prepare for this very podcast? Because that was my experience, which I have to say it was quite distressing for me for various reasons, considering the state of my own brain, my own subconscious, certainly one of them. I think it was like you see it the first time.

It doesn't matter if you understand it. It's cool. It's fun. It's engaging. You're hooked. You see it again and you're like, I'm starting to get this. I'm peeling back the layers, going through the levels. The third time is when you either feel like you've actually made a breakthrough or you're like, this movie doesn't make sense.

And that was years ago for me that point. And so when I returned to it for this, I was like, why am I having so much trouble grasping this? Do I just need more caffeine? Am I officially an old lady? Maybe both? I think both of those things can be true and it can still be confusing. I had a very similar experience. I think the third time I saw it, I was like, I've got this movie in the palm of my hand.

I'm the Lord of Dreams. Freud Jr. I understand everything that he was going for and it's masterfully done. And pretty much every time since I've seen it, I'm like, doesn't make sense, is confusing. Might even be bad, but it's fascinating to watch. I don't know. Might even be bad, but it's still one of his two good movies? Yikes.

I got to say, the most devastating critique of this movie is the meme. where it's, you know, Leo and Cille Murphy, they're at the hotel, and Leo is saying something like, I need to get my, I am in the dream, we need to get my kids back. And then Cillie Murphy says something like, yeah, why don't you just, let's just go get him, fly to France and go get them. And then Leo makes the very confused face. That is the most devastating critique of this movie. That said, yeah, but it's really fascinating to look at.

It is. And I do think that it's interesting that Nolan has. He frames the dream world in this very, it looks like a jaguar ad, a lot of it. Oh, yeah. Like, where are the kind of like the morphing figures and what you would normally think of as the kind of visuals of a dream? It just looks very much like reality with strange things occasionally thrown in. Just in hotel bars. Yeah.

You know, wearing suits. It's almost like a movie made by a director who's been going to junkets for his own movies for years, where he has to keep sitting down and explaining his movies. movie and every time you explain something that is like a creative act you're like I think I have exploded my brain you know uh Ellen Page's character asks questions until like the last five minutes of the movie that's what she's there for yeah she is actually there to do that to teach you what is going on she's like wait so explain this part to me too and like they're in the snow like the movie's about to end do you think you can just build a prison of memories to lock her in do you really think

that that's going to contain her when were you in limbo? How long are you stuck there? How could you stand it? And what about for her? What happened when you woke up? What about your children? Wouldn't it be more effective, though, if in attempting to fulfill that function, she was asking about, like, the mechanics of the world and the mythology and how it works

as opposed to, like, his motivations as a human being? That feels a little lazy. That's an interesting anecdote that we'll get into in half-assed Internet Research Corner. Just the fact that Nolan spent years, like almost 10 years on the script. after realizing that he needed to make the character's emotional motivations central to this story, interlocking story about dreams. Okay, casting what ifs. Kate Winslet approached for the role of Mal.

How do we feel about this? So I went to Marion Cotillard. Yes. And Marion Cotillard is a very different actress than Kate Winslet. Yes. Mary Cotillard often plays femme fatale, often plays sort of a stormy, complicated woman. Kay Winsett plays that too, but there is something very specific about the difference between a French woman and an English woman. And I don't think that Kate Winslet would have been very compelling as the crazed dream wife.

I don't know how else to describe her. Kay Winslet wouldn't scare me the way Marianne Cotillard scares me in this movie. Well, also, Nolan is, well, at least after the fact, going to attempt to rationalize that is not. just his standard every film has the dead girl who allows my leading man to discover his emotional vulnerability? I'm glad we got there early. That's why I'm here. And so she, the casting that he went with that they went with, I think, allowed him to at least

pretend that there was something more complex and complicated going on there with that character. Well, also that, doesn't that also seem like one of those, like Chris Ryan producer voice, if you put Kate in the movie with Leo, they give you an extra 20 A million. Definitely. Exactly. Okay. For the role of Ariadne, considered were Evan Rachel Wood, Emily Blunt, Rachel McAdams,

Emma Roberts, Jesse Schramm, Taylor Swift, and Terry Mulligan. Is that real? I don't know. Look at what Sean's face is doing. Oh, my God. Well, if confusion and gobsnacked idiocy is the pursuit there for Ariadne, then perhaps that would be. I think Ellen Page is perfect, right? Ellen Page communicates this sort of like intense intelligence,

but also sort of like wide-eyed vulnerability, right? That's what that character needs. That character is named, all these characters are named after relevant, historical, or mythological or whatever figures. But her character in particular is named after the figure in the story of the minotaur who helps Theseus get, defeat the minotaur. Great stuff. You know, there is something that is.

like almost clinical and like scientific, almost like a nurse and you need someone who is not quite so powerful. I feel like Evan Rachel Wood is almost like too tall, too beautiful, too imperious for a role like that. I think Ellen Page is good. I don't like that that's her character name

and I like it even less after you just explained it to me. Wow. I agree. Because for like a movie that is in essence a riddle and a puzzle, I don't actually want the clues to be that on the nose, especially if the other character are named.

It'll be a long podcast. Cobb? Like Dom Cobb? Dom Cobb. Right? So this is, like, okay, when the werewolf in Harry Potter is named Lupin, I understand that I'm supposed to be thinking about the moon and the story of the boys raised by wolves and connecting those dots, but other characters in the world have names that are equally,

at least initially seeming obscure and are really clues about who they are and what their backgrounds are and what role they're going to play in the story. She's like the only one. So you spend the whole time thinking, well, what does this name mean? Why is that her name? Why is that her name? I've never heard of someone named this. It's crazy. It just also sounds absurd every time another character says her name. Sounds like you guys need to do some book learning. That's definitely true.

Also, a character in this movie is named Mal. Is that a familiar name to you? But that's not how they say it. Mall. Mall. Yeah. Maul. Like, I'm going to maul you with these kitchen knives that I will use and wield as claws.

Her name is not spelled, her full name is not spelled the same way yours is. I know, but I didn't even realize her name was supposed to be Mow. It's supposed to be Mall. Yeah, but I thought it was mall, like a different name. That was like a really distressing discovery for me. You must understand the origin of your name, right? Well, as I've shared with you, my dear colleague and friend, once as a young child in Hebrew school, I spent one year in Hebrew school because numerous people in my town growing up were Jewish and they were getting rich having barn bat mitzvah.

And I wanted that. I wanted that money. And so I asked my parents to send me to Hebrew school. I could do an aggressive year of tutoring, tutoring, catch up, memorize my Haftor and Toron, which is what I did. And one of the assignments I had to do in that one concentrated year was like an origin of my name, both my Hebrew name and my actual proper name, my English name. And Mallory is like, it's a bummer, guys. It's a bummer, guys. It's a bummer, guys. I can't remember exactly all of the specific wording, but it basically meant like unfortunate, unlucky German soldier.

Let me read it to you. It is a name derived from the French word, Malur, meaning misfortune or unhappiness. Wow. So that's a bummer. Thanks, Mom and Dad. Very tough. They got it from family ties. Okay. Joseph Gordon-Levitt plays Arthur. But that role was also offered to James Franco, who had to turn it down because of scheduling conflicts. JGL has a kind of blankness that works in this case. He really does. I actually like that so much about his character. Yeah.

That he's like deadpan and meaningless. What's happening? Cobb's drawing fissure's attention to the strangeness of the dream, which is making his subconscious look for the dreamer. For me, quick, give me kiss. There's something interesting, Nolan, when the movie came out, cited that each character in the movie represents like a figure in the filmmaking process. And, you know, obviously Dom Cobb is the director because Dom Cobb is styled to look exactly like Christopher Nolan.

Arthur is identified by Nolan as the producer of the movie, which is interesting because there are definitely times in the movie when I don't totally know why Arthur is there. And I think that that is the reputation of some producers. It's like you're meant to be there at the beginning of something, but then once that thing gets going, your role is sort of superfluous. Arthur does do a lot of times, but he also is not considered like an artist. And remember the way Dom or Ariadne are like the artists of the movie. So it's interesting. And then finally, Don Johnson for the role of Peter Browning that was taken by Tom Berringer, which I like.

Don Johnson has a ruined, as a ruined man quality that I think would have worked here. Tom Berringer, it was shocking to see him in this movie and realize that that is Tom Berringer. So Mal gave you a personal anecdote. I'll give you a much shorter personal anecdote. I think Don Johnson would have been fine. Browning is not the most essential character in this movie. However, Browning, played by Tom Berringer, in this movie, looks exactly like my father. Wow.

Exactly. And my father would get Tom Berringer for years. But in this movie, dressed in a suit, his hair, just that shade, the sort of like vague sweat. The like, I've been eating too much meat, smoking too many cigarettes in this life. And, you know, no disrespect to my dad. But he looks exactly like him. And it's actually disorienting. And it makes the movie somewhat hard to watch.

Because also Browning's character, especially when he's portrayed by Tom Hardy's character, Eames, is asking Killian Murphy all about his father. So there's this like inversion that is mildly upsetting for me, I would say. If Peter Browning in this movie like pulled a policeman's benevolent union placker, parking placard out of his suit, would you just have to leave the screening? I would try to dive into the television and hug him. I've always pictured your father with a prominent muster. No, no. He has a goatee from time to time. Ooh.

Okay. Most rewatchable scene. Now, this is tough because so many of the set-piece action scenes are interthreaded in that dream-like way. Like, where does one stop and where does one begin? So I guess we could go with the ski heist, the dream within a dream within a dream. The hotel heist, the dream within a dream. And then the L.A. and the rain heist, the dream. I also like the training scenes with Ariadne, where they basically explain the movie to you.

and then Dom and Mall in limbo is heartbreaking stuff. What do you guys think? Mel, when you watch it again, what were you like, I'm in my zone. Yeah. Give me those snowmobiles. It's designed as elaborate. There must be access routes that cut through the maze, right?

I mean, certainly the most emotionally gripping scenes for me are the Cobb and mall scenes. Yeah. whether it be the elevator memories or the limbo, the train reveal, which I quite like and find quite sad. We can get into that later. But in terms of sort of the sheer kind of captivating nature of what makes this rewatchable, it's amazing to me that just every single thing in the scene is white. And the idea, you as a viewer, are supposed to be able to say, all right, well, the guy. that I'm rooting for and are paying attention to.

They're in white and there's some just light dusting of gray on the outfits and the bad guys. They just have more gray on the outfits. And that's how you're supposed to tell them apart. All the guns are wrapped in like gauze or painted white. The avalanche is extremely fun. I love when they, the rope. Yeah. The rope trick.

Very cool and fun. It doesn't really have like the emotional weight of some of the other scenes. But I think it feels like a relief at that point in the movie. Also like you're trying to track so much. and stitch it together in your mind. And that is a point where it just kind of feels like pleasant to engage with the way he's chosen to put the story together.

You know, the color choices in any Nolan movies are interesting because he's colorblind and that simply must affect the way he chooses to present his films, right? Yeah, you don't see a lot of red or green or, you know, it's not a lot of primary color. It's like almost everything is like slate colored or night or like pure white like you're describing,

which is interesting. I wonder if that's specifically because his palate is limited. Yeah. The thing I like about the snow heist is it's one of the few parts of the movie where there's some humor in there. Yes. There's the part where Sillian Murphy, like the first kick happens, they miss it. And Sillian Murphy delivers that line like, can't someone up a beach next time and then, you know, pushes whoever it is off of him. I forget who.

And it's like, oh, that was funny. That was good. And also Tom Hardy throwing an explosive onto a truck and then doing a thumbs up. It's really funny. That's also, the scene does have arguably the most moments that make you go. Like, that makes absolutely no sense. And that's one of them, just like looking at the explosive in your hand for a solid 45 seconds instead of choosing to maybe deposit it off to the side.

Also, Leo just sniping people with perfect accuracy. It's a dream, guys. That part I'm fine with, yeah. What about you, Grita Dara? I think the training scene in Paris or Dream Paris is pretty incredible. Hey, almost everything else is here, too. Who are the people? Projections of my subconscious.

Yours? Yes. Remember, you are the dreamer. You build this world. I am the subject. My mind populates it. You can literally talk to my subconscious. That's one of the ways we extract information from the subject. How else do you do it?

Even watching it, re-watching it, when he's like, do you know how we got here? Right. And you're like, oh, wait, I don't know how we got here. That's like a pretty masterful thing to do. You mean the initial, like, the exploding newsstand? and then they're all holding in on itself. Yeah, and when he's explaining how the dreams work and how they are operating within these dreams,

I think is actually really well done. Sean? I think the zero gravity fight scenes hold up really well. That stuff is actually really good. I was rereading A.O. Scott's review of the movie, and he compared it a lot to The Dark Night, which came right before this, and he's a little dubious of Nolan, as I am.

And the thing that he identified is, like, he's basically been able to make his career on being arguably the very best person at set pieces. And things that just make you go like, oh shit. You know, the truck flipping over in the dark night, for example. For me, the zero gravity fight scenes are the sort of thing where, like, I have no idea how he pulled that off. And I try to figure out how filmmakers do things when I'm watching movies now more than ever. And I don't, I have no sense of how they did that. There's a moment where like Joseph Gordon Levitt like slides up to the top of the ceiling like a spider and then down again.

I'm like, what the fuck? A hundred foot long rotating corridor. That's in half-ass internet research. We'll get to that. What age the best? This is interesting because this movie is not that old. For me, it's Tom Hardy not wearing a mask and speaking with a normal human voice. Because it's like, where has that been?

I'd like to see that. I don't have a lot of choices for this because it's hard to pick a thing from a movie this recent. Oh, I also like JGL in a suit. I'd like to see more of him in a suit? This is a difficult one. I mean, it's only seven years ago. There is something interesting about whether a movie like this could have been made even now. Yeah.

So the fact that there's a $150 million movie about dreams is kind of exciting to think about. Like, I just don't think that there's a studio that would have ponied up for this. Well, put Kate Winslet in the book. That's true, yeah. And set it on a boat instead of in a hotel. Yeah. But that's interesting because, like, at its core, I mean, it's certainly like it's emotional. It's philosophical.

but it's actually kind of like a fantasy story. Yeah. Right. And there's more money going into that than ever. That's true. It's just often packaged differently. Maybe give this a Y.A. label. I was going to say give it a dragon.

Then put Taylor Swift in it. And then we're cooking. Some magic wolves. You put those in there? Give me a little ghost. He's got time. You can dream anything. That's the other thing is this is a sequel-ready movie.

It really is. I don't really like, I'm not a fan of the like, we have to do a sequel, but you could do a good sequel to this movie. But you can't. That's the thing. Because then it undoes the power of the ending. If you think the ending has power. You want to wait for that?

It's supposed to be an unanswerable question. We will get to that. I think Jason and I agree on the... Guder, any thoughts on what age the best? I think Sean said it with the set pieces. That gravity scene is pretty incredible. The fight with the one guy in the bedroom where JGL grabbed the gun at the last second

And just the way the guy falls is really abrupt and stunning. And the way the gun tracks their movements across the room is constantly falling towards them, falling towards him and then slides right into his hands at the end there. It's great. So is it not a problem for you guys? Okay, so why are they rotating? They're rotating because the van.

Right. In frame level one is flipping and moving. That's not a problem for you guys. That is not a kick. Like, they should just all be awake at that point. That takes me out of. like that logic flaw is really distracting. Define the kick for people, and for me too, because I'm a little confused about it.

I think I can argue for this, but do you want to explain it and then I'll argue for it? So the kick is the mechanism by which the dreamers are brought out of the dream into a state of either awakeness or up into a shallower level of the dream. And the way to do that is by creating the sensation of falling within the dream somehow. So, like, you know, early in the movie, Arthur kicks over Ariadne's chair, and that's how, like, um... Right. He kicks a chair. Right.

And she wakes up. Now, here's how I will... This is a good note. Here's how I will argue for the initial kick not waking them up. They're under the influence of extremely powerful sedatives. And they are three levels at that point down in the dream. And the way... They're two in the hallway.

Two in the hallway. Right. But they needed to synchronize the kicks on all three levels in order to bring them up. In order for their plan to work. Right. I don't think the movie ever convinces us that the kicks have to be synchronized for them to wake up. It's that so for them to have had the proper amount of time to complete the mission at every level. Right.

It's a math problem. So the physics of it, as we understand, is just like when Arthur says at level two, how am I supposed to pull off a kick without gravity? Right. It's literally you have to be able to make the subject feel that sensation of falling. If you're in a car crash and your van is rotating down a hill, you probably feel that. There are also just multiple, like, what appear to be intentional close-ups of the characters who are under swaying, like powerfully. Like, they're in the wind.

They're moving. And we're led to believe in various other points in the story that that motion would serve as a kick. It's really disorienting. It's a great note. How many of the people in this movie do you think understand this movie, you know? Because Nolan is very famous for bringing like an astrophysicist onto the set of interstellar to help unpack quantum physics. But, you know, is there a Freudian psychotherapist on set to help explain dream levels and like sort of like the veracity of some of this stuff? Because the science is like so high level and so bunk at the same time.

There's something so magical about just being like, I'm going to get this exactly right. and I'm the most full of shit you can be while making a movie. Right. I had what age of the words, just dreams in general. Movies about dreams. Especially in the context of, you know, a filmmaker that is not that visually interesting all the time. You know, I don't know if you remember the 1984 movie Dreamscape. That is truly a wild film starring Dennis Quaid.

I mean, it's like a really, it's a very 80s movie. But at the same time, that's kind of like what you imagine a movie about Dreamscape. dream should be. And Nolan put together a movie that at times just looks like an ad for suits. Let's move to Half-Ast Internet Research Corner. This is always a fun portion of the podcast. Nolan first pitched the film in 2001 right after Memento, but realized he didn't have the experience to helmet production of this kind of complexity.

And so he went and did the Batman movies for experience and also to hone the script. his original treatment is 80 pages, which is like script length. Sean, you had known better than I. Yeah, I mean, that would be an 80-minute script, an 80-minute movie. I think that makes sense because this movie is convoluted. So it takes a lot to explain it. And usually when you're selling a movie,

you need to clarify specifically what the movie is about for producers to figure out how much money they need to spend to make the movie. So I'm not surprised. Also, you know, I think we know that Nolan is like pretty in love with his own ideas of things. and it's no surprise that he would go to extravagant lengths to clarify. This is also notably one of only two original stories that he's ever told. And so he usually adapts comic books or novels or things like that. And I guess Dunkirk is a real-life story.

So it's not shocking that he would kind of go the extra mile to clarify what the heck's going on in this movie. Explain to us what a treatment is. It's essentially like a long synopsis. It's a lot of stage direction and plot summary that kind of clarifies. what a movie's going to be. There might be scenes in it. There might be specifically like this is going to be a highlight of the movie. This is a big set piece in the movie and it'll have some more detail. But it's essentially the tool you use to get a production company or producers to sign on to partake.

So when he's pitching it to producers at that point in the process, do you think he's already saying, I have a scene where Cobb, who's the director figure, yells at Arthur, who's the producer figure about how he fucked it up, how he didn't do enough research to tell them that the projections would be there armed against them. That is a very notable scene. It's definitely self-reflexive. I think so much of this movie is self-reflexive. It kind of hurts to think about it in that respect. It makes me like it a lot less.

Because of the time when the original script was written, the movie was influenced by those kind of early aughts, late 90s, mind-fuck films like The Matrix, Dark City, the 13th floor. And for the hotel dream within a dream scenes, the filmmakers constructed a fully rotatable hallway to create the illusion of dream physics. It's originally supposed to be 40 feet long.

Grudeau 100 feet long. and the corridor was suspended along eight large concentric rings that were spaced equidistently outside its walls and powered by two massive electric motors. That's how they did it, Sean. Okay.

Can we pause just to talk about something for a second? The worst opening clause of any sentence in the universe is let me tell you about this dream I had last night. But I do want to know from you guys when you dream, do you dream in a kind of close reality because one, I do not dream often, in fact, maybe once a year. I never remember my dreams.

So that's a strange thing. But when I do, it is hazy, it's very foggy. There's not this, like, precision that Nolan has in his vision of the dreams. There's no all-white mountain. There's no, like, glass crystal at the hotel bar. You know, these very specific notes. There's just a man who looks like Tom Barringer. Calling out to you.

If I'm being honest, I'm certainly being chased by someone, and I don't know who it is. But honestly, do you guys dream so cleanly, so clearly? Rarely. In the dreams that feel portentious or that I wake up in the middle of, yeah, that's pretty clear. But it fades quite quickly into the haziness of my memory. I used to remember my dreams all the time, like almost every day. Even multiple times per night, if I would wake up in the middle of night, I'd remember the dream I just had. If I went back to sleep and woke up again, I'd remember another dream.

Loved it. now again I'm just fading. My brain is turning into a jello mold more and more with each passing day. So it's less common. But I do still remember my dreams with some regularity. I would say they often reflect quite clearly my state of mind and what is going on in my life or what I would like to have going on in my life. And in terms of the specificity of the environment, it is quite clearly supposed to be a real place. Like it will be like, I would be like, I am at the office or I am at my home. And in the dream, it feels like it is my home or the office or wherever it's supposed to be. But then when I wake up later, I realize that it's actually a completely different physical space. It's not the same at all. But it feels like it's the right place when I'm in the dream. Andrew?

Yeah, I dream in like parallels to places that I've been recently. Right. And they aren't clearly brushed. So, no, I don't think I would, I dream of glasses of water or bars like that. I also dream somewhat cinematically, though. Wow, what a brag. I know. Just like Chris Nolan.

Somewhat cinematically. Yeah, like actual movies playing in my head that I'm not even a part of. So in that regard, I guess Inception makes sense to me. You're not a part? You're not in your own dreams? No. No, I'm literally like, I'm not like sitting down and watching something happen, but it's literally just playing in my head. This is a metaphor for your work, I think.

Yeah, it probably is. Do you guys have ever dreamed that felt portentous in the way that it would alter your behavior in real life, such as an inception type plot? I don't think I'm quite so paranoid. You know, I think, like, paranoia is the driving feeling of this movie where you're never quite sure what ground you're on. Right. I don't have that. Like I said, I do often feel like I'm being chased for some reason, which is probably just like some,

maybe some class anxiety that I have. But I don't understand how people have like the notion of vividness in general. Yeah. You know, and the portentiousness, I don't make that connection. And I don't make that even the connection that Mallory is talking about where she says. It purely reflects what's happening almost in my day-to-day life. I dream about people in my life. Right.

Specific people in my life. What about wolves? Yeah. Sometimes. Okay. Sometimes. Certainly my cat. It was like my dire wolf.

Oh. Pete Pastaweight, who played the elder Fisher, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2009, died six months after the film's release. And he also plays a character who is dying of cancer. Yes. That's strange. It's quite eerie to watch later after learning that. Best Heat Check Performance by a Role Player. This is an exciting category.

Tom Hardy as Eames. Lucas Haas as a no. voted member of the pussy posse who was only cast as Nash as a favor to Leo, we assume. The work of MC Escher. These are just my own candidates. Do you guys have any? I like Lucas. Lucas Haas being in this is incredible.

It's the best. It's a flex of incredible proportions by Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah. And just like, good for Lucas, you know. Good for Lucas. You know, just saying yes and just continuing to hang out with Leo long enough to be in a Christopher Nolan movie for five seconds. Right. Get a check. Get that check.

Yeah, he got checks. Check. Check. I mean, he's probably had multiple checks because of his friendship with Leo. Sure, but Ed, how many shooting days do you think Lucas was involved in? He's in two scenes too. Right. He's dragged off.

He's dragged out of an elevator. Is that one day, you think? It's probably like a week. Yeah, I think it's a week. The scene, because the initial scene that he's in in the room and it's his dream. Yeah. That's probably you're dealing with like. the looming.

They're on a train for a second. The rioting crowd and the distance and you'll eventually have to discuss the fibers of the carpet. I think that's complex. The experience of it is as worthy as the money because he gets to go up to people in bars, maybe women, and say, sure, why not? I play the architect in Leonardo DiCaprio's new movie inception. Yeah. Right.

Which is true. As David Blaine is riffling through cards in the background. Mal do you have any candidates for this? Well, I like another one that you, that you. that you have on your list here, and I don't think just read aloud, but I'll borrow it from you. Sure.

And we can discuss it. The idea of dorm room philosophy. It's it. Well, because I didn't include it because then I started thinking, is it more than a role player? Is it the whole point? Is it the whole point of the film?

Well, I wanted to bring it up not to actually answer the prompt, which I will not address, but rather to redirect and ask you guys, do you have like a clear sense in your mind, when you think about the movie of when in time you saw it. Like where you were in your life,

where you were in the world, what you were doing, what you were thinking, etc. When I saw Inception? Yeah. I was just some basic bro living in New York going to the movies. Sounds right. Here's why I ask. I had a truly bizarre experience when I went to rewatch this two nights ago.

I fell asleep and then actually rewatched it yesterday. I had a conversation with my husband Adam as we were about to rewatch it. And he asked, when did you see this for the first time? And I said, I was in college. Right. You know, and I was thinking specifically about this idea of, like, having these discussions about the meaning of life and the nature of reality and what your dreams mean and whether it really even matters. And I was so sure that I had discussed this in my dorm room with my friends, Alison Kassas, Suzanne Grasel, David Shapiro. Wow, shouts to them, et cetera.

This is a big podcast for those guys. This movie came out two years after I graduated college. Just none of that is true. Why do I think that's true? I think you're in limbo right now. That's like so scary to me. Take your totem out now. I might need to make one.

I think it's your chapstick. It's the chapstick. Hold on. Let's knock it over. I won't touch it. I don't know. I found that really strange. Seriously, I was certain I had seen.

this in a movie theater in Syracuse, New York and discussed it with my peers in a college setting. That is not true. I had been living in New York City as a professional for two years when this movie came out. I think that that's actually the problem with this movie. Right. Because this movie is so the literal version of hits blunt once, you know? Like, it's just so base level, I'm a little stoned, you know?

Or it's like, imagine a world where you're in a dream and then you go to another dream. and then you fight a man in a hallway and then you're in the snow. Like, it's just so... Yes. It's so silly when you describe it in its basis terms. And it feels very much that like the first time you partake and you're like, I can see the whole world in front of me and I understand everything. But you don't know anything.

You're a complete fool. Not familiar. I've never done drugs. Okay. That's not what I wasn't playing. Sean, Andrew, any Dian waiters? I don't know if he fits the bill, but Hans Zimmer? Good one.

I just feel like he's more than a role player. Great. Yeah, which is why I... Incredible theme music for this. Right, yeah. Obviously, a very influential score. But he, like, dominates the movie. He does.

He takes over scenes where I had to literally turn my computer down because it was hurting my ears. Yeah. He's quite loud. He's an important player. He might be bigger than Dionne Waiters. Wow. That's an interesting. That's a good one.

And I like it. There's a couple of candidates for me. I think the only time that no one's ever used the phone. pop song is the Edith Piaf song. Jeanne regret Rien. No, Riyan de Riyan,

regret to Rian. And that's really strange. That usage is really strange. It's also really strange because Marion Cotier played Edith Piaf in a film, La Vian Rose, and then cast her in this movie, and then the song is

playing over and over again. That song plays, I think, over the closing credits of La Vian Rose. And so that's strange. But I think Hardy is the heat check. There's a really good story about Hardy in this movie, which is he was sort of just coming up as an actor when he was cast in it. I remember seeing, this was the first time I'd seen him because I hadn't seen the previous films.

But he thought that he was cast by Nolan because of his performance in a movie called Bronson. Yeah. The Nichol's a Skinhead movie. Yeah. Where he's a British criminal and he's a madman. It was a very acclaimed movie, but a small movie. And when he got to the set, he realized that he was cast. because of his performance in the movie Rock and Rolla,

which is a bad guy Richie movie. Yeah, that's where I first saw him. Yeah, I think that's sort of his big break for most people. He's a handsome man. As many have been. He's extremely handsome, but I like the idea of Chris Nolan sitting in a theater watching rock and roll.

There's something fun about that. No pat out. Tom Hardy, what a path for him since I was, you know, watching this again. I'm like, why isn't Tom Hardy one of the biggest movie stars in the world? Yeah. He should be Mel Gibson in 1989. Yeah.

He's really charming. And then he went from this and he went to a kind of like one for them, five for me formula. And now he does like zero for them. And I will be in a TV show that only Chris Ryan watches about the Dutch East India Company. Shouts to Taboo Island. Okay. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. Today's rewatchable is brought to you by Google Assistant.

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slash rewatchables or text R-E-W-A-T-C-H-A-B-L-E-S to 500-500 to start your free trial, 30-day free trial. That's audible.com slash R-E-W-A-T-C-H-A-B-L-E-S or text rewatchables to 500-to-500 to start your 30-day free trial. And now back to the rewatchables. We're back. Apex Mountain. Who reached their peak in this movie? Here's a short list that I have, Christopher Nolan, Joseph Gordon Levitt,

cinematographer and longtime Nolan collaborator Wally Fister, Tom Hardy, Sulean Murphy. Those are just my candidates. Feel free to pick your own. Sean. Let's go Wally Fister. Wow. Who went on to become a filmmaker in his own right

and not a terribly successful filmmaker, in my opinion. But I think that the scene that Andrew noted earlier, which is the first time we see Cobb sort of showing Ariadne, how this works is pretty masterful, mind-blowing stuff. You're like, oh, my God, we're really in the hands of somebody who knows how to blow your mind. And a lot of that is how a movie is shot. It's not just how the movie is conceived.

You know, a movie like this can be conceived by any stone or in a dorm room, as we've discussed. But actually pulling it off and watching a building fold on top of another building to resemble an M.C. Escher painting is pretty high-level stuff. Saying like the cinematographer is the winner of this movie is not the most interesting opinion, but I think it's kind of true because I'm a little dubious of this movie. I like it. Andrew? I think it's JGL.

Yeah, where's he been? What's he doing? What's he doing besides like commercials and stuff? He's got, what is his company? Hit record. Hit record. Which I don't know anything about. I think it's an app.

I could be wrong about that. I'm sure it is. I decided not to Google it after seeing the commercial ones. But yeah, he addressed. up is Edward Snowden for a second after this. He was Lincoln's son in Lincoln. Oh, that's right. He had with a great mustache.

He wanted to be his own man, similar to Sillian Murphy. But yeah, he's not in much, a looper, I guess. Yeah. Where he had prosthetics on his face. And Robin in Dark Night Rises. But not really. Yeah, so called, maybe Robin. Right.

But yeah, and I think he's actually really good in this movie. His kind of play with Tom Hardy is really funny. And they're kind of like, they're buds, but they also rib each other. Right. It's beautiful. When we take him a level deeper, his own projection of Browning should feed that right back to him. So he gives himself the idea. Precisely.

It's the only way he will stick. It has to see himself generated. Eames. I am a man. Your condescension, as always, is much appreciated, Arthur. Thank you. I have JGL, too. He's great.

He's great in this. He's very good. Unintentional comedy. I struggled to find candidates for this other than the movie writ large. And by the way, I like this movie. Let me just say that. I like the movie. But unintentional comedy, I guess, coherence?

Like, what would you select as an unintentional comedy moment? I'll just throw it to anyone who's got one. Lucas Haas. Yes. That's very good. That's very good. Also, the moment when Leo comes back from limbo, when he's still on the plane, he has a look on his face and he looks just like Chris Ryan in McLeithism video. That part is hilarious.

Those are the only two I have. I don't really get why he can't see his kids' faces. What's going on with that? Why is that a thing that he can't see? Right. is there something on their faces that is like upsetting to him? Like that's one of those things where it's like this will be an incredible cinematic trick when the moment when they turn their face at the end of the movie will know something has changed.

But like that's just kind of movie bullshit. You know, like there's a lot of movie bullshit in this movie. And there's a lot of the best writing about movies is always about how movies are our dreams. You know, they are, they start as images in people's minds and somehow these people pull these images from their mind. They put them on screen. And so if you use that as the movie, pretext for seeing every movie, you realize that movies are just nonsense, right? And if you accept them on their face, then you will appreciate them more. However, there are specific choices that are made in movies. Like, I can't see Philippa's face for some reason.

Right. That, like, doesn't make sense. It's not about anything. It doesn't mean anything to us. And it's just there to trick us. I don't believe what I'm about to say, but I will offer it up as a charitable possible explanation. Okay. One of the things that we have to accept as viewers to buy in is that, that there is a difference between a projection and a memory. You have to believe that to understand why he is basically corrupted as a person in this world, why he can't be trusted, why he can't trust himself. And so that is a memory.

Like, Mal, Mal, she is a projection. She is part of his subconscious coming to attempt to tear him down, to get him ultimately to succumb to his own will. She's a reflection of himself, his own version of her, which is part of him. That moment with the children not turning around, we have to believe to understand the rules that he's playing by or that the world plays by. That is the last moment from his former life. That is the moment when everything changed for him when he had to make a choice. And he chose to flee. And he did it before he looked at them or let them look at him, I guess, because if they looked at him, he wouldn't have had the strength to go away.

And so the fact that they don't turn and basically behave freely is because they are not fragments of his mind. They are a real moment in time that he is playing over and over on loop to torture himself. I could theoretically be convinced of that if you were also willing to agree that in real life, Maul looks like Artie Lang and not like Martin Quoteer. Is that also possible? Because if it is, then I buy it full stop. All right. Unanswerable questions.

I mean, you're like, you know, where do you want to start? The entire movie is Dom dreaming. What part of this is real? Is he dreaming at the end? Is this where we're going to do theories, too? Let's do theories. Let's go with some theories here. I mean, does anyone have a particular fascinating theory?

You're a fascinating theory. You're jumping at the bed here. Yeah, I can't wait. Well, I had never thought about this until reading Christopher Ryan's, piece on The Ringer.com. Nice. I should all read it. And it's the theory that, okay, so there's a larger class of theory about just the whole movie being cop stream, which we should talk about at length and separately.

But this specific slice of that theory is that Ellen Page's character is there to try to get him to admit to a crime, to admit to the murder, to Mal's murder. So that the entire movie is his dream and that she is there sent by his father-in-law. Michael Kane. By Michael Kane. Who just has a completely different accent than his daughter. I guess we're supposed to assume he was British, moved to Paris, had a child there, raised her and she had. This is a Christopher Nolan, a Jonathan Nolan issue. We'll get it to that later.

There's no reason for that to happen, just cast a French actor instead. But okay, that he hired her, his student, or a person who was pretending to be his student, to go in to Cobb's subconscious and attempt to find out if he did in fact kill Maul. And that that specifically is why she is incessantly asking questions, constantly asking questions. She's the interrogator. Not actually just to serve his audience avatar and attempt to figure out what is going on, but because she is actually taxed. with the mission of piecing together, what happened? What do you think? She's also still the audience, though, surrogate.

Here's why. Christopher Nolan keeps killing wives in movies. Yeah. It seems like he doesn't know why. Yeah. And so she's like, maybe if I write a character who's trying to figure out why, then I don't know, that theory sounds like poppy cock to me. I think that theory is more interesting than this movie.

In many ways. That said, yeah, I don't buy it, but this is, this movie was consciously designed to allow theories like this to propagate. Surely, right? I mean, the ending, listen, the movie ends with, so Dom Cobb returns home, we think, he takes out his tone of him and he spins it. He's watching it spin. and here's his children. He turns, he sees them. He goes to them.

Camera remains on the totem. It wobbles and then cut to credits. This made me angry and it still makes me incredibly angry. Because, first of all, I mean, if you want to argue that, what Nolan's trying to say here is that it doesn't matter whether it's a dream or not. He's back with his kids. He doesn't care. I think that it doesn't matter should never be the message of a movie or of a movie. of something you sat through two hours of.

It should not be, this thing you care about doesn't matter, guys. Doesn't matter. I would have endless, and I don't want to sit here and tell Christopher Nolan how to shoot his movies, but like isn't the better ending that, okay, Dom comes in, he spins the totem. He hears his kids. The camera follows him out there and then cuts. You don't actually see the totem wobble or anything. Now that is the message of the family.

He's back with his kids. Who cares what the totem? He's back. He's in a place he wants to be with the people that he loves. How did you guys feel about this ending? I have to say I'm shocked. This has never happened. I have a totally different read on it than you.

I want to hear it. This is going to be painful for me. We're usually so in sync. It's true. I think it's not only okay if the takeaway is it doesn't matter. I think that's the point. I think it is too. And that's actually pretty compelling to me.

the idea that the nature of your own reality is either so unclear to you or so painful to you that your entire existence becomes about either combating it actively or attempting to warp it to basically circumstances that are more palatable for you. And the thing it made me think about is my all-time favorite line from Harry Potter, which I've shared with you many, many, many times. And I apologize to Sean, who does not like Harry Potter for now mentioning it twice on this podcast. I wouldn't say don't like him. Okay. I just think you're crazy. There's a big difference. I will try to set up the scene as quickly as possible, but it is when Harry has sacrificed himself.

and is in his mind's rendering of King's Cross, not King's Cross, his mind's rendering of King's Cross. It looks sort of, like there are intentional deliberate mistakes, right? Much like the way there are kind of intentional deliberate mistakes between Harry and his father, a very compelling idea. And he's having a conversation with Dumbledore. And at a certain point, he asked Dumbledore if it's happening inside of his head or if it's real. Like, is this in his imagination, right?

And Dumbledore says, of course it is happening inside your. head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it isn't real? And that's like the coolest idea in the world. To me, that's why we... I don't know, that's hit blunts once again. Yeah, give me it. Pass that piece pipe. Like that is to me why that is like the idea that I respond to most in stories, period.

Like, that's why I actually love to consume the thing. Forget my own life and how I'm conducting it. Like the idea that I could fall so fully into this other. reality that someone else is built is really, really exciting and compelling to me. And so the idea that you could maybe make that for yourself is very interesting. Let me just defend myself for one second. It's really the wobbling of the totem that bothers me more than anything because it's such a filmmaker's, aha, I have tricked you.

More than anything else. Like if the camera goes with him to his kids and you never see it wobble or any of that, then it's about that. It's about him being in that place. That relationship. The wobble is just feels like such a fuck you to me. It's like when you retweet somebody and just write like boom on top of it. Yeah, it's just like, gotcha.

Dunk. It's not just a prompt though. It's not just a like admittedly heavy handed but ultimately like fairly effective way of saying this is the question you should be asking. It's more like scratching your chin and saying what even is reality man. But that's fine. But isn't that fine? Isn't that actually what the movie is about? Isn't that okay?

We were all talking about it, so it wasn't a sense of fact. And that's why it's rewatchable. I think it's interesting that we're all kind of suspect of a lot of the ideas in the movie, but it is reproductive in a way. You're always kind of returning to try to get to the bottom of some of the feelings and the ideas in it. I don't know. Do you like the ending? I do in terms of like a movie making tactic because I do think it's a good troll to get people to continue talking about your movie. And I don't think Nolan has, Nolan comes down either way on how you're supposed to feel.

I think he's literally just like figure it out yourself. Right. And in that way, I don't really like it. But it's effective and I have to respect it. I respect the hustle for sure. Let me ask you guys a more material question about the ending. So Saito played by Ken Watanabe is a captain of industry who has hired Dom Cobb to go. to go into Fisher's brain, convince him to break up his company so that Saito's company can thrive.

That is essentially what the transaction is here. In exchange, Saito says to Cobb, I can clear your record of accused murder and allow you to return to the United States and be reunited with your family. What? Part of the game is Saito being able to cancel a murder charge? So Cobb is on a plane with Saito. They go under. They go into Fisher's dream. They go into another dream.

They go into another dream. Their plan works. The extraction inception plan works. They're still on the plane. And while they're on the plane, Saito makes a call 20 minutes before they line. And then they land. And he hands the passports to customs. First of all, that's not what customs looks like.

That's my other. I got a whole other problem with that. But he hands it to customs. And they're like, welcome back to the states, Mr. Cobb. I'm glad you're here. What the hell is going on? on there. It's that easy for Saito to just erase a murder charge?

Who is this guy? Also fly the kids to France. Well, yeah, I mean, that's definitely... True. Paris is dope. Paris is great, guys. Also, they don't clarify whether his wife's mother believes that he did it or not.

She begrudgingly puts his kids on the phone early in the movie. But she seems to be very disgruntled with him because possibly he murdered her daughter or for some other reason. I don't know. what that is. Wait, but so do you guys think Dom is dreaming? No one answered that question.

That's a great. I think he is dreaming, yes. I think he's dreaming. Here's the take. Don't give a shit. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean, that's unfortunate, but I do think that I do think it's a dream.

But it isn't unfortunate. That's a good thing. That he doesn't know? He's so at peace because of this reality that's taking place either actually in reality or in his mind that he now doesn't care. It's a good thing that Sean can say it doesn't matter. Right. It's a good thing that like any person who consume the film can process it in a totally different way.

Like I think that's actually cool. Yeah. I don't necessarily want hyperactive like moralizing and messaging in every story. I definitely like it sometimes. But I think it's nice to have a little bit of room for interpretation. And so if you think, okay, the point of the movie was actually like the plan. and they did it and it worked and that somehow Sado has the power to pull off that phone call, even though presumably then he would also have had the power to take down an opponent on his own.

That seems reasonable. That's my point, right. But, okay, it worked. They did it. And now Cobb has returned home and can live his life. You can think that. And that's like totally fine. Consume it as an adventure story, right?

Or you can think that he is forever lost in his own limbo, either by choice or just because he went too deep. and that he doesn't know that or is choosing to ignore that reality and that that's also okay. I do like the meta reality of Christopher Nolan making a movie about a guy who looks like Christopher Nolan who gets so lost in his own stories that you can't see as kids. Well, and can't tell what's real or not. Like, isn't that sort of the, well, okay, pure creation is actually a quote from the movie, right? Pure creation. And like, so we're talking about a filmmaker who is understandably totally captivated by that idea. I'm going to, I want to make, I want to create purely, and I want to make a story about people who want to create purely.

And one of them might get so lost by that that possibility that he actually loses the ability to tell what's real or chooses to stop being able to tell what's real. Isn't devoting your life to making movies kind of like in a way choosing to stop totally living in reality? And again, I think that's great. Unless you're a documentarian. Sure. Best quote. Some good cana. Eames, you mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.

Yeah. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah, that's it, really. Should we even do the rest? Cobb. I don't like that quote. Can I explain why? Sure, tell me.

Wow. Sorry, guys. It's just delivered really well. It is, yeah. His line reading is great. He's fucking hot. I love him. That part's all.

He's wielding a grenade launcher in his arms. It's extremely phallic and I'm a huge fan of it. But it's kind of. It's confusing. It's confusing in terms of who controls the rules in the dreams. Yeah. It's not his dream level. Well, and he's not the architect.

And so who is in control of what at what moment? How does his forgery actually even work? Right. Like, what are the rules? What are the rules? We are never really led to full clarity there in a way that is actually pretty annoying. This is the concern of a serious consumer. of fantasy. You know, you guys are expert at this and you're interested in the logic of it specifically.

It actually didn't occur to me. I was much more interested in like customs and how customs works than how Eames got his hands on a grenade launcher. Though you make a good point. I mean, I feel like every six minutes, there's a moment like that where you're just like, wait, what? Well, because that quote, the substance of what he's saying implies that any person participating in that particular reality can change it at any moment. And we're sort of led to believe, not sort of, we are led to believe that the fact that Cobb consistently corrupts the reality around him is a big problem, and that you're actually like not supposed to do that, right? And that it's a fundamental flaw in who he is as a person.

So severe as that flaw that he actually can't be trusted to build the worlds anymore. But can everyone change things? That's what that implies. Interesting. Overall, there's a lot of things in this movie. Overall, there's a lot of things in this movie that just happens because the movie says they can have. happen? But that's bad storytelling. Oh, I fully agree.

Like, DSX Machina after DeaSX Machina is bad. Like, I need a new gun here, so I'm going to suddenly clarify for the viewer that you can just make a new gun is bad. What if he just pulled that gun out of the back of a truck, though? We don't actually know. Dream a little bigger could just be like a subtle, like a jacket.

That's also like one of those things where it's like, okay, like why stop at a, why stop at a grenade launcher? Where's the laser gun? Like, where's the gun that just makes everyone disappear? True. That's another question about the dreams in general. I feel like they actually could be a little more creative.

That's the thing. Yeah, I feel like... Yeah. Cobb. And ideas like a virus, resilient, highly contagious, and even the smallest seed of an idea can grow. It can grow to define or destroy you. I like this one a lot.

I don't think that the opening line of a movie can ever be the best line of the movie. Yeah. Because that's something that screenwriters are like, I got one. They always do that. They always kick off with like, this is where I blow their mind. I have a grabber. It's okay. Yeah, the first part of that,

The first part of that dialogue includes something about, like, intestinal worms. That's true. So I think it's set up really well. You think Nolan had a tapeworm? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. I like that one. I do.

I like it. It's obviously, like, very overt. Yeah. Here's the point of the movie. We're going to tell you right away. Like, I get how that is lame. It's good ones. It is also, like, a compelling thing to think about.

I like it. And idea is like a virus. We're back. We're back in sync. Cob and Mall. you're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away, you know where you hope this train will take you, but you don't know for sure.

That's a good one. There's some very good dialogue in this movie. Yes. Very good dialogue. I really agree. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Can we talk about that for a minute? Sure.

Because there are actually two versions of it in the movie and there are different. There are several versions. Like, there are several versions, but her reading, when she's presenting it to Ellen Page as, let me tell you a riddle. Right. She says, don't. What you were just read. I don't know for sure.

But when Cobb is saying it to her, to Maul, when we finally see the limbo, the train moment at the end and all the puzzle pieces click into place, he says, can't. Can't know for sure. And I've always wondered if that was an intentional change or just the way the actors read the lines. Because, like, those are different things. I think. Don't know represents your circumstances in the moment. You are not in possession of all the facts, right? Can't?

It's intentional. And I'll tell you why. because Maul is the projection of his guilt and regret. When Saito says, do you want to take a leap of freight to become an old man filled with regret waiting to die alone? Maul is the regret that he is filled with. And so when Cobb gives his line reading, and he says can't, he's rationally saying, you couldn't know. There's no way you can know. His guilt tells him you don't know for sure, but maybe you should have.

maybe you should have known. I like that. We all die alone. I just want to put that out there. Saito thinks he's got to say the answers to something like, we're not all going to die alone. Nice try, Saito. I have a line that I like.

Okay, this is me planting an idea in your mind. I say, don't think about elephants. What are you thinking about? Yeah, that's good. That's very good. That's also like a reference to a literary thing. There's a book, psychological study called Don't Think About Elephants. So once again, Christopher Nolan, rip somebody off.

I don't read books. All right, who won this movie? Tons of candidates. We can go with Christopher Nolan, as this is arguably one of his two great movies. Leo DiCaprio. I mean, I love Tom Hardy in this movie. I think Tom Hardy being a movie star is good. Who do you guys have?

I think this is a huge win for Nolan, and there are a lot of reasons for that. A lot of people can make money making Batman movies, and a lot of people can make money making Batman movies. Yeah. And a lot of people can make money making movies about going into outer space. And a lot of people can make money making movies about war. And it's really hard to make a movie that makes money that's about dreams. And I think this is like, after this movie came out, it certified Nolan in a way that indicated that he was something bigger than comic books.

The Spielberg of our time. Exactly. Yeah. He started getting that like Master of Invention title. And it also showed that if a studio took a risk on him, that he could pay it back. Dunkirk's very similar this year. There was a lot of people who were like, I don't know, a war movie, World War II,

taking place entirely in France, released in the middle of the summer, and that movie is the second biggest success story of the year. So I think it's got to be Nolan, even though I do think a lot of this movie is just pure and pure poppycock. Like, I just don't understand what's going on. And still, like, I'm still pretty impressed with what he's able to do. Andrew.

I like that argument, but I think it's Tom Hardy for me. Nice. Like Mal said, he's extremely dashing and handsome in this. And it's really the last time we're allowed to see how handsome he is. Sad. His line readings are perfect. Every scene he's in, he's the center of the scene, even if he's not supposed to be. His, like I said, his play with JGL is extremely charming.

His scene in Mombasa is like a great character intro. It's amazing. So yeah, Tom Hardy's my boy. Mal. Well, other than the, you know, medical marijuana dispensaries in Los Angeles, got to follow through on this hits blunt once logic that Sean keeps throwing my way. That is resonating with you. I think it's Nolan, too, for the reasons that Sean said.

It's actually interesting that this is a Leonardo DiCaprio movie that people don't really think of as a Leonardo DiCaprio movie. They think of it as a Christopher Nolan movie. Totally. And it's really about the ideas and the logic or lack of logic and debating the logic that has sustained its place in the culture. So that came from him, from Nolan fully. Yeah, I'm going to zoom slightly out and hit the blunt once and say it's the audience, just for this is like high-level creative movie making in the sense that, in the, in exactly the same way that you stated it, Sean.

This is like really, this is ambition. And it was done in a way that made money, which is not a thing that is happening that much right now. Non-IP movie about dreams. Great. Made a lot of money. Came out in the summer. It was a blockbuster.

Will we ever see that again? Or will we see that anytime soon? I don't know. So I think it's really like the movie-going audience in general. Yeah, it's an interesting point, right? because it's also a fairly conventional movie in some ways. Oh, sure. There's gun fights and there's a villain and it's a heist movie.

It's a noir movie. There's a lot of things. It's a love story. It's a tragedy. He does very keenly integrate all these classic storytelling styles into this movie that is fairly absurd on its face. But, you know, it is, like I said, it's regenerative. We could talk about this for another two hours.

Totally. Yeah. Can you guys clarify what you think his other good movie is for the listeners? True. You each side, do you think there are two good movies? I think Dunkirk. I am not a fan of Dunkirk. Are you going to say the prestige?

No, I think the Dark Night is. I think, oh, yeah. You know, the Dark Night is a flawed movie, much like this movie, but it has moments much like this movie that are like, that really sweep you up and are like, I'm so happy to be at a movie. I'm so happy to be inside of this. You know, I think his other movies are very interesting. I think the prestige and memento are both very good, but I think in terms of

reaching the limits, like the height of his talent, he's skis. grapes at the most of those two. Yeah, see, for me, Dunkirk, it's like to make a movie that comes out in 2017 about World War II that's just about the good guys being afraid the whole time. There's very little bravery in that movie. And the bravery that's exhibited is by, like, normal citizens, not the soldiers. I think that's a really interesting choice to make for a movie in this day and age. Reflective of a moment, perhaps. Yes.

And I really like that movie. Should we bring Tadon to stump for interstellar? Andrew, do you like interstellar? No. Okay, hey, you've been listening to The Rwatchables, Inception Edition, from Mal, Andrew, Sean, and Jason, thanks a lot, guys. This has been fun. Bye, guys.

Bye. See you. It's blunt two times. Yeah, more than once.