The Rewatchables - ‘Juice’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill SImmons, Van Lathan, and Wosny Lambre get the wind behind their back and go out in a blaze after rewatching the 1992 crime drama ‘Juice’ starring Omar Epps, Tupac Shakur, and Jermaine Hopkins. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love the rewatchables, you know that all new episodes are available on all platforms for 45 days. And then the entire archive moves to Spotify, four and a half years of movies. Well, every year at the start of the year, we like to take some old ones that we've already done and make them available on all platforms. Well, we did that this year. Goodfellas, The Godfather 2, Rocky 4, The Fugitive, Devil Wars Prada, Superbad, Creed, available on all platforms. You don't just have to hear them on Spotify. But we love when he listen on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation.

Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller, and the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand.

It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch.

Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good.

That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana. Pick up these mail. apply. We're also brought to by the Ringer podcast network. You can hear Van Lathen on the Higher Learning podcast, and you can hear him on the Ringerverse, and you can hear Big Waz on the Ringer NBA show, and you can watch his YouTube show for us as well that does basketball

and culture. Coming up, we're going to talk about the 30th anniversary of Juice. That's next. ambition GQ and loyalty What is you scared between truth No killed and silence

Juice Rated R starts Friday January 17th and theaters everywhere All right Van Lathan is here Wosney Lambris here

We're going to talk about Juice which came out 30 years ago and has such a fascinating relationship to the early 90s but more importantly the Tupac legacy because this is the first

film he ever made he jumps off the screen there's a charisma to him that is just completely obvious immediately and he's really young when he made it. Van, you rewatch this a hundred times of your life? I don't know.

All time. What jumps out the most every time you're watching it? It was never tried again. They never did this again. Like this movie is... So this was during the golden era of growing up in the hood

coming of age stories. So you had, you know, Mrs. Society, you had boy, in the hood. You had, even like later on, you had New Jersey Drive. You had every different kind of, but except for maybe fresh,

which you can, which you could argue, has some of the same elements in terms of, it's kind of like a thriller almost as well. This was never really done again, that they took these kind of elements of growing up in the hood,

the brotherhood, the crime, being unsafe in your neighborhood, and turned it, with like, what if one of your homeboys just fucking goes crazy? Which happens all the time. And while I know what I'm talking about, if you think of guys like,

why I'm W. Melly and dudes like that, that happens. But this particular story was never actually told again is one reason why I keep going back to it because it's only time you can get it. What jumped out to you, Wes? Honestly, what jumped out to me was the Tupac of it all. And my relationship with Tupac is a little bit more complicated than you guys as a Brooklyn night, a New York City person.

It's a little different for me, right? But what jumps out is the Tupac of it all. And this being the genesis of the Tupac as character in culture. Like this feels like his sort of his audition tape, right? Like, the character that he perfected on a song, like, hit him up, you see. the genesis of it in this performance. And that's what stuck out to me. It hadn't been perfected.

Its edges hadn't yet been hardened in the way that they would be by the time 1996 around and he, you know, he gets killed tragically in Las Vegas. But watching this movie is like, oh, he's trying this stuff out as far as how he would perform Tupac, the cultural character. So I actually bought the streaming thing. and didn't realize it came with all of these little vignettes and features that they did for the 25th anniversary of the film. And they have amazing footage of him in the early 90s on the set interacting with those guys. And there was this whole backstory with how they made the film, how he got cast in it.

But more importantly, how those guys all clicked together. Like, they really hung out. Like, they were boys. And him and Omar Epps were close. And at the same time, he's kind of working on his first album, which comes out. They're filming this in the night. And the first album comes out near the end of 1991. And one of the one of the vignettes, Omar Epps is telling this story about Tupac comes to the set.

And he's upset because he had read this story about this lady who threw a baby. And I think it was an incinerator. Wow. And he just, he could tell, like, he was really bothering. He was talking about it. And he's like, I got to write something about this. And then a couple months later played him. Brenda's got a baby.

Yeah. And he was like, holy shit. This was that day when he was all, and he talks about like the process of just what Tupac was like on the set, how he would interact with everybody, how he would pull these real life stories into a song. Like he was witnessing it in real time. And, you know, that first album, I think, has been as easily the weakest one of all the albums he put out.

But it's also really interesting, right? He's young. He's trying to figure out. He's trying to these big socially conscious songs, stuff like that. But all of this is brewing in 1991, first time actor. hasn't made an album yet. He just had the one digital underground song. But I think that's one of the reasons I love this film van is like

it's almost like watching footage of Kevin Durant in Texas or something. You're like, oh, oh yeah, remember this? Remember this stage of him? Right. By the way, Waws, I picked up on the subtle Tupac Slander. Cool it. Cool, it was. I picked up on the character that he perfected

and all of that I picked up, that's a coast to coast thing. Wals, we left all of that back in 96, 97, 98. Don't kick nothing back up, I'm not,

I realize this is not the platform. I've seen you go on Twitter as well. I've seen you do this. This is not the platform for me to unpack my complicated feelings about Tupac Shakur, his career, his legacy, etc.

But, yeah, we'll just leave it at that. We'll leave it at that. Well, so I'll tell you. So this is what I'll tell you about what you just said. Number one, the interesting thing about this movie is it came out.

I think it was like 12 when it came out, right? When the movie came out, I didn't go see it in theaters. So by the time I saw it, it had made it to cable. So maybe it wasn't even in 92. Maybe it was a little later on. But by the time I saw the movie, I remember being surprised that Tupac was in a movie because that was still novel at that time. Rappers acting, except for like maybe that's the same around.

the same time, the first picture of Bel Air is coming out. Maybe it's a little bit after. It was like a year after, yeah. Yeah. So that was still not, I'm like, wait, that's still like, this is Tupac in that movie. Like, Tupac is in the movie, the whole movie. And we had, he had, he was Tupac enough at the time for us to actually be, like,

excited that he was in the film. Like, it was a thing that Tupac was in the movie. Because I think that no matter how you feel about Tupacalypse now, and, you know, he made such great work. over time that Brenda's got a baby was just a ridiculously popular, important weighty song at the time. And it was almost like that was kind of the thing. It was a star-making turn for him.

So to kind of figure out that he made it and conceptualize it while he was doing, to me, I think this is still Pock's best role. And so while he was good, it just shows you the artistry, the duality of him, that he was putting on on that screen at the same time that he was making timeless and important hip-hop music as well. So you know, I'm happy you brought up how old you were, Van, when this came out. By the time this foot came out on VHS, in like 1993, I would have been six years old. And while that's important is because my older brother's way older than me.

He's 11 years older than me. So all of my cultural references flowed downward from whatever his tastes were at the time. And so we had this movie on VHS. and I'm listening to Chris and Andy talk about how many on their show, talk about how many shows, TV shows are currently in development between the various streamers, et cetera, et cetera. In 1993 and 1994, if you had the Juice VHS, you were watching that at least once or twice a week straight up.

And so this is part of my like cultural awakening. Like as I'm becoming a sentient being, juice is part of that. And like, I know we're going to get into the hip hop of it all. But juice, what is so amazing about rewatching it is like it is this perfect time capsule of this perfect time in hip hop as the culture before it becomes commodified and becomes this literal commercial entity. And when I say culture, I mean an accepted group of behaviors that people are doing, whether it be how they dress, how they talk, the rituals they perform all of those things. Like this is still hip hop as an actual culture in a way that we just don't talk about anymore, right?

Like, it's not a thing. Well, it's impossible now. Right. It's just... Because it's too big now. Yeah. It's world culture. The internet is so big now that it's five different ways to look at act and dress hip hop.

Even when you look at this movie, it's like an event. There's a little cameo from Queen Latifah. There's a little cameo from Flex. Like, there's all, like, you can tell. it was a big, huge deal that this uptown Harlem story was being told, and all parts of the culture wanted a little bit to do with it. And that is the type of thing that has been sort of, like, it's been categorized, it's been fragmented.

You don't really get everybody coming together like that anymore because the culture is almost like all around us. And by the way, they nailed it. Like, that's the thing. Like, they, we're going to get into some of the things about this movie, but like they nailed so many important details. And again, like as a New York City kid, like as this being a huge part of my influence, right?

Like being like, when you realize to yourself, like I'm a hip hop person. Like this is the music that I listen to. This is the way that I dress. This is the language me and my homies speak. Like when you're realizing, you're becoming conscious of the fact that this is part of who you are, like juice for me anyway.

is a big part of that forming. You know, like, it's crazy. Also, when you go back to 92, it's just, the hip-hop world was not covered in any way. No. And it's really important to make that point, like how underground all this was.

There was no infrastructure at all. MTV wasn't playing the videos. No. The Rolling Stone, Spin Magazine wrote some stuff, but Rolling Stone was ignoring it completely. So everything was word of mouth. Everything was, unless they went on like Arsenio Hall was like, or, you know, maybe somebody to came on a living color.

Other than that, it was just word of mouth. And so, like, they had the Shockley brothers who do basically the score for this, right? That's a big deal in some circles. I didn't know who the fuck the Shockley brothers were when I was, you know, living in East Coast, like, living in, we're going to college in Worcester. I didn't know who those guys were. But a lot of the guys, we knew, like, naughty by nature. You knew that they're on the soundtrack.

Big Daddy Kane, Eric B and Rakim, obviously. But there's some other stuff in there that was really for the people who really love this shit. And that was so smart. Like, they grab Ernest Dickerson, who's a cinematographer for all Spikes' first, I think six movies. They even shoehorned and golly shot in here at some point. Right. This is crazy. And they filmed on location.

Everything's filmed in Harlem. So everything about this is completely authentic. They're not trying to cater to anybody. They're not looking at a big picture going, oh, we're not. should have this. It's all organic coming out of whatever this world was. Plus, you mentioned some of the movies from this era.

This is really, this movie happens because of the success of Boys in the Hood. Boys in the Hood opens up the door for Hollywood to look at this and go, wait a second, black people are going to movies. Let's make more movies for them. We can make some money. There's no other reason. There's no altruistic thing at all. This is all

economic. And they exact. Rather than give you an in the East Coast Boys in the Hood, they gave you a psychological thriller about what happens when the trauma that the kids are living in actually turns one of them heal.

Which, remember, is not what you get in Boys in the Hood. What you get in Boys in the Hood or Men's Society is those kids' response to their trauma. It's how they look at it and them trying to weave through it. What you get now is someone, and even in the first scene of this movie,

the first scene in this movie, it sets it up. this movie shows you that the rest of these kids have parents to come wake them up. Like Rahim doesn't need anybody to wake him up, right? Because he's the leader. Yep. Everything is like everything is under control for Rahim. So Rahim is actually up before everyone going to charge you to get in the bathroom. But people still care, right? The only person that didn't have somebody to come get them up in the morning was Bishop. And Bishop got himself up. Bishop then looks at his mom. He has to go in there and look at his dad.

That's every morning for him. And then he gets harassed every morning for him. So, like, when one of those characters can't either rise above or survive and they just go bad, which that happens, dog. Like, I mean, like that, like, it happens. We all know it happens. Some people just crack. And then they get to a point growing up in South Bad Rood, you know guys that are doing things just because they're trying to survive. And then some of your homies get to the point to where they just like to hurt people.

You know what I mean? It happens. And I don't think they, and I think that was a zag for boys in the hood. Listen, there was a guy in my neighborhood growing up who's, because in your neighborhoods, there are guys you don't call them by their name Charles or whatever. You call them by what we at the time called tag names, nicknames, A.K.A.s, whatever. This, this homie's nickname was Hellraiser, literally. And, like, you know, there was this, I did it like, yo, this is a guy who's, like, kind of teetering on

the edge, right? And I remember, you know, I had moved and years later, I'm reading in the news that somebody killed a cop in my neighborhood. And it was this dude. And it comes out that he's got these, like, mental health issues that went undiagnosed and untreated. And like, he's gone through all of these things. But like, these are the kinds of these things happen, like actually happen in your neighborhood. And, you know, another thing about this movie that I think is really important for people to understand. Like, if you visit New York City today, if you go to Harlem, if you go to Bedstay, if you go to Fort Green, if you go to a lot of these neighborhoods, they used to actually be scary. They actually were dangerous people. And I think this movie

catches New York City at the tail end of dangerous New York. New York is one of the safest places in the world when you considered the amount of crime with the amount of people. Like, it's literally one of the safest places in the world now. But back then, in 91 and 92, New York was still, you know, that sort of taxi driver, that sort of hellscape, New York is still there. Well, they tell, and one of the Vignettes, they told this story about how Tupac, who was really like this by all counts. Like, he would just see somebody on the street. He'd see some mom pushing a stroller and go over and give her money. And so he was trying to be friendly with everybody when they're filming.

And then somebody stole Julie from his trailer. And all of a sudden he had this giant bodyguard. outside and they were trying to find out as they're filming the movie, who stole the jewelry? And it's just this era of this early 90s where, as you said, like it's the end of this New York City era before it's heading into something else. It's also the start of this hip-hop culture era where so many things are happening all at the same time, 90, 91, 92 that eventually kind of form this entire generation.

But it's still in the infancy in this movie and you can feel it with all the different choices. the fact that Tupac's unknown in this movie, the fact that Omar Epps, how many, like, movies has Omar Epps been in that people can name at the top of their hat? He's like 17 in us. The first time I ever saw him. The first time I ever saw him.

And he's special in this movie, by the way. He's amazing. Like, by the way, there's a whole, we have this conversation later, Hollywood's reluctance to really give black performers, is what I would call prestige cinema, like kind of how it is now,

kind of we didn't have, there was, at that point, either you were, to get to that next level to where everyone's going to give you the award show credit and all of that stuff,

to really be propelled like that, it was either spike or bust. That was really it. There was nobody else you could go to to kind of get that. Now, you have a couple of different filmmakers out there that can,

you have Steve McQueen, you have Barry Jenkins, you have a whole bunch of people that can kind of deliver that type of stuff stuff. And because of that, there is actually a whole string of unappreciated black performers. People that can really get down, that really, really, really can get down. And, you know, Omar Epps is one of them. I'm not going to put them on the, in terms of just chops on a level of like a Denzel Washington and stuff like that.

But also, the reality is that his career got stunned by the fact that after a while, you can only play the young dude. coming up fighting the whatever the system in the world for a couple of times like he played this guy all the way up into higher learning

then he needs more roles you know what I mean and it just weren't out there not quite yet yeah got love of basketball yeah that was like the most interesting post higher learning role

he probably had so you mentioned the lack of kind of opportunities all that stuff one of the most interesting things about this movie that came up in the research

they had the script for eight years wow And at one point, I think the Donner company had it, and they were trying to make it funnier and trying to make it more, you know, and Dickerson was just like, he co-wrote it with somebody. And he's just like, no, wait, this is the movie I want to make. So, Boys in the Hood happens. Do the Right Thing Happens first. Then Boys in the Hood.

Boys in the Hood happens. Now everybody's looking for movies like this happens to have this script. Boom, we're off. We go. But the fact that it took eight years to make kind of says everything you need to know about what it was like in the United States. Then there's a boom. All these movies do really well.

We find a bunch of directors, actors, things like that. We talked on the Higher Learning Pod van about there's this, what if, I don't know if you know about this was, but Tupac was supposed to have the Omar Epps role in Higher Learning, and then he went to jail. And he couldn't be in the movie. So then it ends up being Omar Epps. It would have been a really important role for him. Poetic Justice was a really important role for him.

That was a mainstream movie, and Janet Jackson was an, A plus Lister at that point. And it was John Singleton. And that was kind of, I think his, I personally think that was his best performance in a movie. But, you know, we talked a little on the higher learning pod, so I don't want to repeat it. But Wask could give his take.

Like, I do feel like there was a real actor in there with Tupac that if he doesn't get taken away in 96, I think there's some stages and some moments and some roles that would have really mattered. And I don't even know who is on that corner after he dies. who was getting those parts that he should have gotten because he was such a unique force of nature. I just don't think you could have been like, well, so this person got the,

I don't think anybody would have gotten the parts. He was kind of a unicorn. Yeah, I think it's obvious that the talent is obvious. Like his ability to light up a scene is so obvious in that with time, the craft part would have came with it. Right. Like it would have caught up to the charisma and the obvious star potential.

Like, like, it's impossible to watch this guy on screen and not think to yourself, like, star, straight up. Like, his, and you could feel the people that are in scenes with him, feel it too. Like, they feel his gravity. They feel the force of nature when they're in the scenes with him. So, yeah, like, who knows what could have happened? And I think, you know, what Bears mentioned

and you can't say it enough, like, Pock was 18 when he made this. He was 24 when he died. Like when I was 18 years old, guys, this might surprise you. I was a shithead. Like, I didn't know shit about shit. I was an idiot. Like, the idea that he could have this level of command of his talent at 18, you know,

to deliver this to people. It's just insane to think about. Van, I agree with absolutely everything wise just said. With that said, here's Tupac's IMDB. from 91 and 96. Juice, poetic justice above the rim. The last three movies he made, bullet, gridlocked, and gang-related.

He's moving into this straight-to-video stage of his acting. And I don't really know how to reconcile it because I didn't like those last three movies. I don't really understand what happened. I know he goes to jail. He's one of the biggest musicians in the world. There's lots of reasons for it.

I'm sure he wasn't like, sifting through scripts and things like that. Maybe he took his eye off the prize. But it is weird that his career just goes, the arrow's pointing down when he does. So I push back. So first of all, we have to look at the roles. So let's do this.

First of all, let's look at who Pock should have been movie-wise, right? Because remember, Pock should have been in a midst society. And then Pock should have been also in higher learning. So he would have been in all of those movies. Now, think about who he would have been. in each movie. It means to society, Pock was going to play Sharif.

Sharif was going to be the guy in Man's Society that was talking sense to everyone, right? That was talking sense to everybody. The opposite of what you got from Bertie, from Bishop, and even a little bit of what you got from Lucky, right? Yeah. Then let's look at the other role.

In Higher Learning. In Higher Learning, he was going to be playing the Omar Epps character, if I believe, which is a track-ass that's struggling to kind of make it and who is trying to become who Ice Cube is

who is essentially Tupac in that movie, right? The revolutionary and stuff. Okay, so then let's look at the roles that he took, a parsing out bullet that was made a little bit for it. Let's look at who he plays in both Gridlocked and gang-related. In Grid-locked, he plays an addict

who is trying to get back on the straight, right, across from Tim Roth and and Thandie Newton. Thandie, I know you're listening, somewhere, love you, across from Tupac and Fannie Newton. And then let's look at the other role that he plays in gang related. A cop. So what you saw more than anything in those roles was Tupac starting to take

chances in the way people viewed Tupac as an actor because some of the other roles that he was going to attempt to take those chances didn't come to fruition. So by the time it gets to 96, right? And actors do this. By the time he gets to 96, Tupac cannot be bigger than a bigger star. By the time he gets to 95, Pot cannot be a bigger star. So he really doesn't need to go do any movie to do anything other than the test himself, right? He is solidified.

Hip-hop icon. Biggest rapper in the world, him is Snoop Dog, right? And big at that point. So what I look at gridlock and gang related, it's not that he was taking misses, is that he was taking chances because he was actually. trying to round out his acting career. When I first saw him in Gridlocked, I was like, wow, that is the movie where I'm like, yo, this is not in any way the same Pock that we had seen before.

And then for Tupac to play the police, and then for him to play the police in the next movie. Unfortunately with Jim Belushi. With Jim Belushi, who actually is the big time criminal in that movie, Pock is kind of of a patsy in that film. He was trying to prove something and trying to step outside of his comfort zone. He did eventually come back to what it was that made him Tupac,

but it was his attempt to actually go and be a real actor. Those roles to me are how we know that Pock took it seriously. I wish he had his version of like an eight mile type movie that kind of blended him in real life versus

like some character where you could take some liberties with it. I guess poetic justice veered into that a little bit, but I would have enjoyed that. Like, could he have been good with Woody Harrelson and Money Train? Like, actually, yeah,

I think I would have enjoyed that. So there's a lot of forks in the road. In the vignettes that I watch for this, which I really enjoyed, Tupac described juice as a modern-day Cooley-Hai. And he said this, like, really, really convincingly. Like, that's how he felt.

I don't know if I agree with that. I feel like juice is... I thought he was like De Niro and taxi driver where it's just like, all right, this guy's unraveling. Oh, I like that. That's good. Before our very eyes, like it starts off where it's like, all right, something's kind of off with this dude.

Yeah. And then he just devolves into an actual serial killer. Well, the Cooney High, you know. I don't see the Coolly High. Yeah. Yeah. But you know why that does resonate though, Bill? like way back, I want to say like very early on in the pandemic,

a friend of mine asked me to go on their podcast to do movies that he called white canon. Meaning movies that straight up only white people think are classics. The first one we did was Big Lobowski. Like if you walk into like a barb- I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Like, man, fuck your friend, bro. I'm going to be mad with you.

You can tell him I said it too. Because if they're like, I'm black and I love It is not that you can't be black and love the big Blyboski. It's like nine out of ten black people do not think the big Lobowski is a classic. And if you talk to white bros, like everybody agrees like this is a fucking classic.

Never seen it. I think something like who. Yeah, right. No, I honestly have never seen it. Bill, you've never seen the big. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, why? This is the type of shit that you need to say in the interview

process, Bill. I can't be a year, a year and a half, two years into a contract with you and then have you say something like this. How on God's green earth have you not seen the big, are you just off the coin brothers? What the fuck are we doing here? John, get Sean on the phone. I have an answer.

What's the answer? I'm saving it. There's some movies that I've saved. I haven't seen Avatar. Still haven't seen it. Saving it. There's a couple that I'm just like at some point. I'm gonna be like

Tonight's tonight And that's it So I have the DVD Yeah I've still never seen Big Lebowski I know I'm gonna like it Big Lebowski was in my college suite With four of the white dudes So like yeah I've seen the movie

Like a trillion Like it had it was like That's not even part of your choice But what I was trying to say is that I think what Park was trying to say What he's making the connection is like I think Cooley High is in the black can Yeah right like juice is in the black cannon

You understand what I'm saying So like I think that's That's the sort of connection that he was making when it comes to certain cinema that, like, to just holds special meaning to a community of people, right? Like, I would imagine, you know. Yeah, I think you're right. I think he's basically saying this was a movie for us.

Yeah. Like the way Cooley High, when we were growing up, Cooley High was a movie for us. So there's a 1992 entertainment weekly piece. And it's all about juice. And it's basically about the strategy of juice. It's really interesting to reread.

Quote, Hollywood coming off a year in which a record number of black films were released. Movie companies are looking to repeat the success of Boys in the Hood in New Jack City, which gross $56,000, $47 million, respectively. Quote, studios finally realized the dollar potential of making black films, says Hyman, who is producing juice with Neil Morris. They were two producers. They cost so little to make, and they don't have to bring it $150 million to be considered a hit.

And then, it's a good thing, too, says the 40-year-old earn a sticker sin, because there's an untapped wealth of black stories, and now some of them will finally get told. And I do think that was the case for a couple years. But by the late 90s, I don't think that was the case anymore. So what happened, Van? Why was this a, I don't want to say a fad, but why was this like a four or five-year run and not just the way it became?

Because when something doesn't grow, it dies. And that's just the way the world works. So actually in the late 90s, you had another mini renaissance of black films that was like into the early 2000s. That was amazing. Remember, you had to wood. But it was a different run. Yeah. It was like it was a different, right?

Because they took it. It moved largely. There were some baby boys in there. But it moved largely from the hood now into college class. Professional class black people. Yeah. So you had. It was like the different world stage of.

Sure. Yeah. Sure. You had the wood. You had brown sugar. You had loving basketball. You had the best man, which was the crowning achievement of all those movies to me and brown sugar. You had the brothers.

And then you had some other ones that were around that same time, too. You know what you didn't have in that whole time? You didn't have a moonlight. You didn't have a Bill Street. You know, you didn't have a movie that, broke through that made Hollywood go okay we have to

continue and keep this going and at the same time because television wasn't as wide and expansive as it was now you didn't have an insecure you didn't have any of those things and the creatives behind those right whereas now Barry Jenkins is a household name

Steve McQueen is a household name all everyone is a household name the harder they fall all of these movies like that you didn't have those movies like captivating the culture in a way that made Hollywood stay there. So when things went a little bit cold, things turned a corner. And at the same time, something else happened. You had a brand new crop of white actors come into the game.

You're Matt Damon's, your Ben Afflex, you're with Paltrow's, your Mereysovino's, all of those people who they got it immediately. like right off the bat like they burst onto the scene with that type of acclaim and their films became sort of like the opposite of what those films were

I'm good friends with Tay Diggs and Taye will talk about this because remember his first role is how Seller got a groove back when he comes out he said on my podcast back in the day he goes well I looked at Matt Damon and it was like well that's what I want to be

like I want to be Yeah, I want to do all the movies and I'm killing all of these roles, but I want to be Matt Damon. I want to be on a cover of Vanity Fair. I want all of that. It wasn't there for them. Yeah. And you know what, too, the problem, especially for black actors is like, you see how you mentioned Steve McQueen and Barry Jenkins and, you know, all of these black directors and filmmakers

whose projects are always considered to be prestige projects. Whether they make a shit ton of money or not, like people, there's a weight that people are associate with the projects they made. In 1999, it's like, yeah, Spike is his prestige black director, but there's nobody else, right? Like, so if there's no black prestige directors to put you in their film, we know the white prestige directors ain't doing it and making you the star. And so, you know, and on it goes.

Well, and you also had a whole new generation of younger directors, all of whom happened to be white, Fincher, Paul Thomas Anderson, on and on and on. And by the way, all of those guys. like incredibly talented in their own right. But remember, you had a couple of guys, like Half Pliny comes out. Christopher Scott Chiroe is a thing for a second, then he's not for a second. And when I say it didn't grow, I'm not in any way saying that that was the fault of the black creatives. Those movies are fantastic.

Brown Sugar to me is a fantastic, nearly perfect movie. I love that film. It just didn't get put in the same. it doesn't get put. Obviously, you're not going to compare brown sugar to Goodwill hunting in terms of what it meant to people. Or even, like, there's no black to big chill. I keep saying that, right? And then something else happens around 2003, 2004, 2005. Tyler arrives. And when, don't do them like that while. Like, don't do them like that. When Tyler gets there, there is no longer a need to really invest

into some of the stories that we're talking about because black film and black film making was solely defined by Tyler Perry for seven to eight or nine year period. And that's just a fact. For better or for worse. It is what it is.

Well, in the Entertainment Weekly thing, it talks about how Dickerson was just pigeonholed as Spike's cinematographer forever. It's crazy because nowadays, especially how unique and distinct those movies where studios would look at him and be like, who filmed that?

Let's give him a movie. They just weren't thinking that way in the 80s. It took him another eight years, and he's fully grateful for Spike, all that stuff. He did, she's got to have it, school days, do the right thing, Mo Better Blues, Jungle Fever, he's finishing Malcolm X as he was making this movie. $5 million budget, made $20.1 million.

Not bad. Roger Ebert, three stars. He loved it. Quote, one of those stories with the quality of a nightmare in which foolish young men try to out macho one another until they get trapped in a violent situation, which will forever alter their lives. And he said something that I thought was pretty cool in that review

where he says like Ernest Dickinson is a cinematographer and usually when they get their chance to direct, it's all style, right? Like they're trying to show you stuff. But he was like, this movie is about story. It's about these characters. It's about these, their circumstances, which I thought was really cool of him to say. All right, we're going to take a break

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Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. All right, categories, most rewatchable scene. You mentioned the opening scene earlier. I had that down. I love the kids waking up in the rooms. I think it's so smart. I think it's so hard to introduce all these different characters the way you do that, where they just immediately feel distinct. Like even...

obviously watch this movie a few times over the years. Like, even I like how they decorate the different rooms. Oh, my God. It's, it's, look, Bill. There's a lot of time thought and care put into it. It's crazy because, like, and I'm getting, like, sort of chill bumps, even talking about it right now. Like, when I'm sitting on my couch and watching this as somebody who used to live in an apartment building in Brooklyn, New York, like, I could smell it as I'm watching it. I could see the, like, the chip paint.

I could see that, like, pit. the busy elevator. Like, I felt like I was there. And what they did with with Q's room, like how compact it felt in like the pole, it was just perfect the way they executed that. And another thing that, and I know Van is going to feel this,

when they start off the movie, first of all, Raq Kim is ramen as soon as the movie starts. I think it's just a signal to everybody who needs to know, like, no, we're doing this shit right and they show you the record playing and it says Def Jam recordings

which again one of the most important record labels in the history of the culture in the history of rap music and it was at a time where like when you were buying the record it was kind of off spec it's like all right this is Def Jam

on the freaking final I'm gonna trust these guys I'm gonna trust these they already got me and you talk about the Shockley Brothers and all the stuff that they did with like Public Enemy etc.

etc. But like just seeing that record spinning and seeing Def Jam's logo on it, I was just like, wow, they nailed that. Also how they did the opening credits even before that scene we just talked about where the credits look like a spinning album. And it's really slight. You almost don't even notice it, but everything, the credits are so stylized with that song. It's really one of the better. I added in What Stage the Best, I might as well mention it now. And then leading into all those kids waking up. I love the kids in the bunk bed with the one leg hanging out. over. It's just, and then the Tupac,

you see Bishop, like, staring at whatever the fuck's going on with his dad. Like, who knows? Yeah. And you're like, oh, so he's from one of these houses. I guess he was, my guess was he was like a Vietnam vet. Yeah. ETSD type of thing.

Or he was, or he was on something. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's kind of in that same vein. The reason why I like that scene so much is because that reminded me of my crew. Like, every time you went to somebody, house, these are guys that you really knew, but everyone had their own little ecosystem based around, and obviously, you know, that's true for everybody. But for me, I remember

going to my home boys in and Emmett's house and seeing them in bunk beds, both of these guys were like 12, 13, 14, like 6, 263. I used to be like, yo, how are they doing this? You know what I mean? Like, how are y'all living like this? Like, you don't have your own room. You live up there with your brother the whole time. And be like, yo, you bless you got your own room. I'd be like, yeah. So, and that just kind of told the story. And really, that's the kind of scene. At the end, there's a certain

sadness that sets into you about this movie about how everything that these kids are going through and everything that they have to go through. And when you go back and you rewatch it, that scene to me is setting them up for them at their most normal. They just waking up. So that's definitely the scene that I love them. And the

subtlety of it where Tupac says, Bishop says, hello to his grandmother. His grandma. And then he goes, you know, slides the five bucks in his dad's pocket, which it's unsaid, but it's like his mom ain't around. You know, like, we don't know where his mom is, but she's not in the crib, which like, again, they're setting you up. They're telling you so much about these characters without, you know, expository.

Next rewatchable scene when they steal the vinyl from the store is we're still in the feel good part of juice before it turns. He's pretending to hit on the lady Beyond the counter so his guys could still I enjoy it. I know you're sexy. Thank you. It's a nice go-to for you in mouth.

I like it. You like it? I'm going to get another one. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm going to cover up the whole front. When are we going out Saturday? Oh, no. Sir?

Sir, can I check that newspaper? Sir, can I call you tonight? Wait a second. Sir? Sir, where are you going? By the way, the one gold tooth that she has, very specific to that era in the 90s where, like, and, you know, somebody might have one on the, one cap on the fang,

or they might have it on the front tooth, but that was, or they might have the, like, joint that just goes in between the gap in your two teeth. Like, that, that felt very error-specific. I thought that was cool. You know who changed that in Louisiana? Pee and them. When P&M came out, if you didn't at least have three,

if you need at least have three goals across the top you was broke. A lonely goal. You couldn't just have a lonely gold. They called it a lonely gold. That's what the was lonely gold. Pee and them had to have, you had to have the whole girl. You know, of course it went crazy after that.

Next scene, Bishop's, his big juice speech, the spit coming out of his mouth. A little altercation. Somebody gets thrown into the pictures. You guys broke the vase. We're going to have Craig play some of that speech, but you gotta get the ground beneath your feet, partner.

Fuck you, man. Yo, chill. No, fuck chill. Check yourself, cute. You gotta snap some collars and let them motherfuckers know. You'd have to take them out. Anytime you feel like it. You gotta get the ground beneath your feet, partner.

Get the wind behind your back and go out and a blaze if you got to. Otherwise, you ain't shit. You might as well be dead your damn self. Trying to tell me I ain't shit? I ain't trying to tell you shit. I tell you shit. I tell you. you ain't shit.

And the wind at your back, he's Langston Bishop. Like, he was like, he was like, I never realized that's on my, on this rewatch. I'm like, yo, you got to get the ground at the feet and your wind. I'm like, Jesus Christ, like, this guy is a poet. So, yeah, like, it's a good scene, man. One of the better charismatic Tupac scenes. Also, like, I just like scenes when you have this group and we've already become attached to them in 20 minutes and now they're not getting along and it's like, come on guys.

Work this out. Come on. No, come on. Bro, I always get into stuff like that in movies. I'm like, I sometimes, I'm such a nerd, movie nerd. Sometimes if I'm feeling bad about the fact that they're not getting along, I rewind it a little bit. And just like relive the good days with those characters. Like, you guys were just chilling and it's obvious that after this little fracas, after he tells Bishop, after he tells Q, he's not shit, that they'll never be friends.

again. Not like they were before. Like they'll never be friends again. Another cool thing about this scene is still is making them grub. Still is feeding these cats and like they're put like he's so perfectly positioned within the crew as sort of the baby face. And like the puncher bag, the innocent and like he just, you know who he reminded me of? Bobby Bacalow. Oh yeah. Like his position within the groove.

reminds me of Bobby. He's always taking insults, but he's the sweetest guy, obviously. And he really cares about these dudes. He's nurturing these dudes. It was like really touching to watch him be in the kitchen cooking up. He's like, what? It's bacon and eggs, man. Shit, good as fuck. And I just, I just love that. Very tender. The chemistry with the four guys was genuine. And they said in the stuff they made about the film, like part of it was they all auditioned at the same time. They didn't expect to get it. They all ended up getting. it and they just kind of knew each other from the additions. So they actually hung out.

So when they're hanging out, like in some of those scenes, they were actually friends in real life. Like Tupac was their legit friend. And you can tell from the way they talk about them and some of the stuff, it was really interesting. Next scene, Mix Master, the Master semis. Got to say, man, I don't know if I had seen anything like that in a movie. Because I saw this in the theater.

And I don't, that was a world that I'd just never been in. living in Massachusetts. So, like, what is this? Do they have these? I have a small... Do they televise these? I have a small knit to pick and we're going to get there. Oh, you want to hear the...

Oh, no, yeah, save it. Save it. We're going to get to that on picking nits. It's very small and minor, but it's very important. But I promise you guys, as I'm watching it in the crib, and I'm watching these guys cut and do their mix. And I was in the crib, like, oh, that! It was crazy.

So, like, yes, that scene is absolutely in my most rewatchable scenes. And I personally know people. who the genesis of them wanted to become a DJ in their life was watching that scene, which has to be the case for like scores of people around the country and around the world watching that scene, watching them at that battle with that crowd and all of that. That's an incredible scene.

There have been other movies that, like, portray people as DJs, but never another movie where you felt like DJ was going to be a kid's way out of all of this shit that he was going through. Yeah. Well, in the research, Omar Epsych really did learn how to do this stuff. That's why it seems authentic because he could actually, by the time they film this stuff, he was at a pretty high level with being able to do it.

I should have mentioned the lead-up is like the appetizer of this scene when he plays the mix that he made for Queen Latifah and she's listening to it. And kind of the way she reacts to it is really fun because now we have this 30-plus year history with her, but she's into it, and she's into it in the right ways, and they're both kind of jamming, but they're not talking to each other. I, I remember this was just when we, with so, so interested about Quinley Tifa, this is, she did, she did things the opposite of way of Pock, but she didn't just come on the screen with this huge big role. She picked at it. Remember, she had, she had one scene in Jungle Fever, very funny scene. She popped up here,

she would pop up there, and then all of a sudden, Queen Latifah was on a television show. So we were just getting used to seeing her on screen because like Quillotiva was one of the biggest lady rappers ever at that point. You know what I mean? And she went super, super up. But like we were just getting... So seeing her there

made that scene feel more authentic. Because you know she knows what a good mix is. She also, she had a jersey connection with Dickerson. You know, because she was Queen in a Jersey basically. Yeah. And Tretch pops up in the movie. Obviously, he's a Jersey

guy. I'm pretty sure that was that was another Jersey connection. Flavor unit as well. Next one, I got three more, the police interrogation. What do you seem so nervous? What are you nervous about? Because we're three niggas in a police station. Doesn't matter

what happened. If y'all want us to be guilty, we'll be guilty. If you didn't do nothing, then you got nothing to worry about. Of course. Of course. The way they cut that in Q going, if y'all want us to be guilty, we'll be Like just there's some really good subtle stuff. What are you nervous?

What you worried about? He was like, we're three N-words in a police station. Yeah. Like, are you serious? The you write, I am crazy scene, which that's when Bishop goes to a whole other level. And then the last 10 minutes, I'm just looping in. Just the chase and...

I think you're missing one scene. It's the scene where the gun is introduced. Yo, I think we should plan to see. another time. This nigger's scared. And nobody's scared, man. I just told you how to DJ Saturday night. Fuck that shit.

We're going Saturday night and that's it. I hold on to the gun. Why should he hold on to the gun? Because I already got it, motherfucker. Just let him hold the gun, man. It ain't worth starting to show. How that the nigg can be acting stupid, you know what? Shut the hell up.

You can feel the weight of like, this is going to change everything. And like the way it's framed, it's that, like, like, this is that. set like they're all circling the gun. Yeah. Right? Almost as if it's like a newborn baby, but like the opposite. It's like they're all circling it. And it's in the center of the frame.

And it's like, this is going to change everything that happens in these guys' lives going forward. And like that scene, because basically that's when everything flips. The moment that gun has introduced, everything flips. So that scene watching it on the couch and like all over. knowing where everything is going and like to watch it in the moment where they're like, damn, let me hold it. Like, oh, this is nice.

Like, oh, the wonder and amazement when that gun is introduced. That scene is everything for me. And then Bishop ends up taking it. Yep. I got, he saw his opportunity at power and he literally took the power from him, took the juice. One of the scene I have is the blizzard robbery scene. And I'll tell you why. Number one, I lived through that.

like I actually lived through when I was 13 seeing one of my homies walking up the block and like saying yo I'm like I'm leaving he's like I'm on my way to the circle K I was like I just left the circle K bro whatever he goes up there he robs the circle K like I'm like I live through that and number two

that that scene is very important because are you talking about the bar robbery I should have had that in there I thought I had that. Like that scene is very important because it's great. Number one, there's a turn there. Think of how quickly they went from,

there is no way we are going to help this guy rob this place. Two, we are going to go rob a place. Yeah. And I don't want to overstate this, but even the best kids that you know that comes from a deprived circumstance is only a couple of choices away. way from ending up completely different.

I mean, we all are. But the fact of the matter that Rahim then goes and sees his girl getting in the car with special ed, another rapper, right, getting like, so all rapper kind of going, getting in the car and Bishop feels a certain way. And everybody feels a certain way. They feel it down. They feel it just that quick to make those bad decisions. Like Bixion says, it only takes one wrong move to fuck up your whole Wikipedia.

And they had the example right there. with Blizzard, and they still went down the same road because that's where their environment was taking them. And I think that scene kind of sets it up from where they were to who they became. And again, I can't stress this enough. Like, robbing culture, stick up culture. Like, that was a very prominent thing in New York City. Like, you know, we have this term in New York called respect the jokes, meaning you are always

around the corner from being robbed. So keep your head on a swivel and be. mindful of that chain snatching purse snatching all this crazy shit that just used to be a part of life in new york city like the idea that a woman's purse is going to get snatched these days like that's that doesn't come up right but like back in those days it was it was omnipresent right like i have an uncle who got shot in the ass in his building elevator getting robbed and he didn't move from the building okay do you understand that do you understand it like that was so freaking part of it. And so that scene

is just like, this is what's out there man for these kids. Dope scene. Funny. It's funny in like a dark comedy kind of way. It's really funny. Eric Sermon getting robbed. I had it in what's age the best, unfortunately. I had it in the wrong category.

But when he goes, I'm going to rob these guys. It just kind of walks up. What's going on? I'd never seen that in a movie in a movie scene before. It's nuts. Yo, and it's like, it's like, yo, by the way, just completely cordial with Q. Yo, what's up, Q? Yeah, how you doing, man?

It's good to see you, man. I'm right, man. How's your crew? Yo, they're outside waiting. Yo, what's it with you? Yo, when you got parole, man? Yo, man, I just got parole the other day, man. That shit is cool, man.

I hope you're taking care of yourself. Wear it up. Come on, man. This blitz. Of course, I'm taking care of myself, man. It's nice to see you, man. Yeah, pardon me for a second. I'm about to rob this place.

All right, everybody. Put your hands in the ass and face the fucking ball! Oh, shit. Don't look at me, God damn it. Hey, yo, Q, you want a piece of this? No, man, I'm right. Yeah, you want in on this? Not nervous.

Hey, like, not nervous at all. Staying there, casing the joint. Hey, hey, it's a stick up Q. You want it on this? He was like, no. No. Well, I love that scene. Just quick, in the last 10 minutes,

the chase up, somehow we always end up on the roof in the early 90s with these movies and we end up on the roof again here. But there's a lot of drama. What I didn't realize is there's an alternate ending. Wait a minute. The roof thing, hold on for a second.

The roof thing just blew my fucking mind. Thanks. That's why I'm here. Wait, wait, hold on. I just thought about, maybe it's just New York with the roofs. Above the rim, of course. I mean, the roof.

New Jack City. What's his name gets killed on the roof? even a boomerang they're up there on the fucking roof what the fuck is going on in the roof like the roof thing just kind of bloop yeah and they stop fucking with the roofs now nobody hangs out in the roof

maybe it's because you don't need permits for roofs don't need permits because we all we all getting drunk and having a fun time on the roof but like no the roof was a big deal you don't need permits it's hard for people to interfere with the filming all that stuff but so

I'll do this now we could have done this in half a center research but The original scene was Bishop, here's the police sirens. And he's like, I'm not going back to jail. And he basically pulls his hand away from Q and drops to his death. No scream, nothing. And the test audiences didn't like it. They didn't want Bishop to decide his own death.

They wanted, you know, they just wanted a different outcome. So they had to re-loop it. And Tupac came in and Dickerson tells this whole story about, they're so mad they had to do this. He didn't have the juice, no pun intended, to fight the studios on it. They had to do it. So he said, Tupac, when he does the scream, when he's falling, he's like, I don't want to do a real scream. I want to do a half-ass scream.

And Dickerson's like, yeah, do a half-ass scream. So when he does the scream, it's like, ah, he doesn't even, like, fully commit to it. Dickerson hates it. And you can find the alternate scene. It's on YouTube. And it's better. And Q is way more upset. And it just works better.

And Bishop controls. It's more believable of something that Bishop would do, by the way. 100%. Bishop controls his own destiny to the bitter end. But by the way, Bill, um, shouts to my man Mitch Marchand, who's a TV writer now, but he's the guy at the end of the movie says, you got the juice now. No. Yeah, that's my man. Shouts to Mitch.

And I know that's one of your favorite things when they loop in the movie title. Oh, they do this a couple times. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love it. Most rewatchable scene for me, I got to say it's the Mixed Master Sam. Really? I fucking love it. Every time. Every time I just want to be there for another 20 minutes. That's my personal most entertaining favorite, but I love the speech. I love the Jewish speech. And I also love the opening scene. That would be my top three. What do you have,

Van? I got the robbery scene as my most rewatchable scene. It's the one. that I, if I, because it's the one scene in this movie that if I don't see it, even when he goes, you know, he shouldn't have done this, but even when he goes, everybody take off your clothes. And you first, because you look good. We used to, we used to say that all the time in the crib. That's one of my favorite scenes in the movie for sure. You had the same ones? Mix Massacre, the gun scene, and of course, you know, the scene at the locker with Omar Epps, Tupac, has been meaned to. death at this point.

What the fuck are we doing? How on earth did we, was, thank you for being a friend. I thought that's what Bill was talking about with the, with the juice, whatever, because I get that soliloquy confused with the soliloquy in the crib, but the scene at the locker

where, you know, he shuts the locker too much is standing there. Like, that has been mean to death. And, you know, the part where he says, partner. Yeah. Yeah, and by the way, and by the way, there was something going on on the internet a couple of weeks ago that was like, take one actor from one movie, keep that actor, make the rest of the cast Muppets.

And my choice was keep Tupac in Jews and then make the rest of the cast Muppets. And it's just because of that scene. Think about like Kermit shutting his locker and then Tupac is right there to kill him. That's the scene where he's as crazy. That, to be honest with you, that's. scene might be the one scene of Tupac's single greatest acting of his entire career. I have that in What Sage's the Best.

Okay, cool. No, just like... I can't believe I didn't think of that. Just the locker shutting and his face there and how menacing he seems for that split second is like, I think, one of the most iconic images from the movie. What's Age the Best? We mentioned the Jews theme song.

Opening credits by Eric B. and Rekin, not the worst thing you could start in early 90s movie. Impossible. The concept of of juice. So it's interesting. There seems to be a school of thought that this movie created the word juice as a thing, that it did not exist in the way that we've been using it for the last 30 years. And this movie created that. And I got to say, I deep-dived it and it seems legitimate. It does seem like it started from this movie. I couldn't find a case of it being earlier than that. That's so interesting because like pretty much any time aside from OJ, which for obvious reasons is like orange juice or whatever, but like aside from OJ, whenever I would, whenever somebody would name themselves or have the nickname Juice, I assume, you know, they were associated with I'm the shit.

Like I got it. I got the juice. That's why juice is in my name. So the idea that it originates from this is kind of, that's kind of crazy. What do you think, Van? Do you think the movie started it? Evidence seems to be that it did. Started what?

We never say that where I'm from. We don't be like, yo, that only got the juice. The term juice being used that way. I haven't really heard it that much. But here's the thing, no. I'll be honest with you. Like, it started, I don't know. I get what it means.

But look. But I haven't really. That could be a New York thing. It is. It is a New York thing because of the juice crew, which was. I'm aware of the juice crew. A rap collected. But again, it's like, we got the juice.

Like, we're the, we're the dopest crew. We're the juice crew. Like, you know, of course, Big Daddy Kane, M.C. Shan, Marley, all of these cats. So, yeah, juice was around, but I think the movie sort of put it out there. Maybe it blew it up. Yeah. Another would stage the best. Juice World, very near and dear to my heart.

He named himself Juice World. because of this movie, this was his favorite movie. He watched it over and over again, which I had no other. That's a piece. Quincy's Room, we talked about earlier for, but it kind of redo it for What Stage the Best? Giant Malcolm X poster. Two turntables strategically placed perfectly.

The stop sign that he drew the cue in there, so it says stop with a cue. I thought that was great. A couple other posters in there was great. How low to them? ground his bed is. Like, as if he's, like, basically sleeping on the floor. Like,

this room is so perfect, bro. Like, that's the ward deserving shit the way they constructed that room. Like, it felt so lived in. It really did. What seems the best just the concept of scratching. Like, I feel like that's

gone out the window and every time it's brought back in a movie. It's, it's like a movie TV. kind of premise. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, as a movie TV thing, yeah, but it's got to be coming back now at the vinyl resurgence, right? It's not. Like, I was just on the thread a couple of days ago when my my homies, with two my homies, one's a rapper and one's the DJs, like, yo, I need you to come up to the, to the studio and do some scratches for me. So it's still mixed into the music. Obviously,

B-boying and all of that stuff is not as top of mind as it was then, but as long as there is hip-hop, scratching will always be a part of it. It's just not. It's more underground. It's more underground. Now, the DJs, and that's something else that happened. When I thought of the word DJ in 1991, I was thinking, are we going there, then? I'm going to be real with you.

When the word DJ popped in my head in 91, I was thinking, Red Alert, Kid Capri, you know, all of these guys, right? But now when you think DJ, it's changed, right? Paris Hilton is a DJ. Paris Hilton, Calvin Harris, Steve Ake, Steve, what's his time? Polly D. Polly D. Like all of those. So it's like that has changed as EDM has sort of taken over that title a little bit.

And by the way, there are some guys in within that structure who are insane as scratching, right? Like somebody like DJ A track who's like a world famous DJ, but he's literally won DJ battles. Kamenair's a great musician. Mark Rons is a great musician, yeah. But yeah, scratching is just, it used to be DJ used to, DJ used to be. defined by how good you cut and scratched records. Now, obviously, it's evolved into something different. But, you know, this movie made me nostalgic for that time, for sure.

Another would say, The Best, Queen Latifah. We mentioned her earlier. But really, really fun to see young back when she was a little more underground. Right. Now she's the equalizer. The music, we mentioned a lot of people on it. Didn't mention EPND and Too Short. but just in general

I think it was one of the first big soundtracks Any other what stage the best for you guys? Yeah I think just golden generation Golden era hip hop is just You just can't be like Hearing Big Daddy Kane I don't know That just will always do something for me

Just like the New York hip hop head Whatever shit That's in my DNA that does something for me Bucket hats I still wear bucket hats There's a bunch of bucket hats in this movie Yeah he likes bucket hats Which I love.

And 90s apartment parties in New York City, that, like, this was a thing. Like, a lot of people couldn't scratch together the money to get a hall for a Sweet 16 party or, you know, a birthday party. You would just have the party in your crib. You would move all your furniture into one bedroom, right? And you would just have it open. And that last scene where they crashed that apartment party like that, was so true to form. That was stuff that happened all the time in New York when you lived in an apartment

building. For me, it's an era of something. The 16 Sam era. I call this, like, this is from like maybe 88 to maybe Pulp Fiction. When Samuel L. Jackson was 16 Sam, he would pop up for really no more than six scenes in a bunch of these movies. He's in four or five scenes in Jungle Fever. in four or five scenes in this movie.

He's in a scene and coming to America. Good fellas. Goodfellas. He pops up a couple of times. Like, to the point to where you just start to know who he is because he's in all of your favorite movies. And then he was still kind of in this era and like even post-Polpiction because then in Fresh, I think came out the same thing.

He's only in the couple of scenes that one, but Pulpiction has already come out. So you're like, God damn, they got some. Samuel L. Jackson. So that is a distinct period in movies that like that age is the best every time I think about it before he was Samuel L. Jackson and he was just that guy. He went from that. No one ever goes from that guy to being that. And like I hadn't watched a movie with 16 Sam in a while. So that's age the best to me. Yeah, I'm with you. It's funny. Like the same Jackson era is basically these three distinct eras that are just completely different from one another where it's like, Vancey, you would see him in these movies.

I love that guy. But you never thought he was going to lead a movie. And Pulp Fiction completely changes it. And then he goes on that run from that. And then kind of moves into wherever he's been the last 15 years where he's just kind of like America's house guest in a good way, right? He's just he can move into anything. It's totally realistic.

He's in commercials with Charles Barkley and shit like that. It's totally realistic when he's in comic book movies. Like there's no unrealistic. speak to be Nick Fury. Yeah. What's weird is. Snoop Dog is kind of moving into this territory, too, where it's like, like, what is an unrealistic place to see Snoop Dog at this point?

Culturally, he already is that. Yeah. Like, Samuel Jackson is that in movies? That's not a place where Snoop don't fit. Yeah, I guess the last piece would be like, could he be like a real actor in a movie? Probably not. But he could be a cameo in a real movie. Anyway, all right, we're to take a break and then do what's age the worst?

What's age the worst? I got to say I don't have a lot for this I had the I had the fact that they kept the original ending and I have the story for this Tupac was saying it was BS Dickerson says yeah it is it's BS Tupac turned to Dickerson

he said well I got a scream and Dickerson said yeah and Tupac said could it be a half-ass scream and Dickerson said yeah give me a half-ass scream maybe one day I'll be able to put it back the way it was, and that's how they did it. And that was it. But I think that's the biggest.

Other than that, I think this movie is a perfect snapshot of what a movie like this would be like in 1992. I wouldn't change anything. I mean, if you wanted to go through with the final tooth comb and comb out all the stuff, that's probably about it now.

Yeah, but that's part of the charm. Yeah. There's just nothing that's just completely out of pocket in this month. Oh, I got one. I got something that's aged the worst. and I have to talk about this because we never talk about this

so there's another person that's in this movie who is very famous for being in the music industry during that time your home girl from Invogue I'm struggling to find her name is that Terry from InVogue or no that's not Terry Cindy Haring Cindy Haring from InVote

I had some stuff on her later Okay Cindy Heron from Invoke she's in this She's a divorcee Perfect Woman Yeah Rock in the cradle Yeah she's yeah so she's So Cindy here from in Vogue

Cues in high school I had that So I have this in picking nets This is just glossed over She's a working adult nurse Yeah what is happening Working nurse And by the way her ex-husband

Comes into the situation And makes fun of her about it Because it's inappropriate A lot of liquorish pizza vibes Going on Yeah I had that in nip-pix. I had no idea why she's with Q.

It's like, well, this guy has no money and he's in high school. Sounds like my next boyfriend. Well, I'll be honest with you. Q's handsome guy. Maybe she's just getting it, Bill. Sometimes people get it. She's transition. Casting what ifs.

They went for unknowns only. We did have the following people audition for Bishop and did not get it. Darrell Mitchell, Tretch, MoneyB, Donald Faison. Wow. A couple of them who are in the movie. Donald Faison, quick cameo. He said something slick, which was unnecessary. He was like, oh, you haven't been in.

Yo, so perfect, by the way, like his Donald Faison's sort of cameo. Because we're watching Q, because this is the first time we're seeing him in school. And they expertly make it so that he can't remember. remember his locker combination because he hasn't been in school in so long. Right. And then Donald Faisal goes, can't remember it because you ain't been in school

and forever. Like that, because like, I'm like, damn, like, oh, really this dude just back in the swing of things in school? But he's not. He's straight up like lost. He's like, damn, what is my combination? That was cool.

Tupac got the role. He accompanied Money Bee for Money Bee's audition. And it's, there's two different stories. Some people say Tupac asked to read. Other people say Dickerson was like, hey, why don't you read? He asked for 15 minutes and came back

and blew everybody away and the rest of his history. And then Cindy Heron's in it because Dickerson had a crush on her from InVogue. And decided her worker in the movie. And in those vignettes, they're all talking about how much, how in love all of them were with her

and how mad they were that Omar F's got to do scenes with her. She was ridiculously hot. Super bad. Ridicously hot. But I can't, man, all the kids go back and watch a video called giving them something he can feel. The remake from the Sparkle movie by Vogue.

Oh, yeah. They were top TV. By the way, they had big songs. They had like five or six, like legitimate songs. Yeah, I forgot. I went back. Yeah, and Vogue was huge. Remember they were all, What a Man with them?

But they, Vogue was, they were a huge girl. Never going to get it. Never going to get it. Yeah. Best that guy, okay, the Joey Pants Award. This is sad, but I think, I think Rahim, the guy the guy who played him, I think

Rahim, I think he becomes I think he becomes that anytime I saw him and anything else, I was like, hey! Rahim from Jews. He did become Rahim from Jews, but the reason why he's not a that guy to me, Bill is because culturally,

like, I don't, I didn't know a woman growing up who wasn't obsessed with the guy in that movie. But did they know his name or they know him as that guy who was Rahim and Jews? Yeah, but he was, He was a cultural, I'm sure in the streets of New York, I don't even want to, I can't even imagine the type of tale this guy got after this movie came out.

Because every woman in my life was in love with this dude in that movie. So I think, so I think here's the thing because he comes up, he shows up in Renaissance Man. And then he comes back on girlfriends. In the grand scheme of things, he probably would be of that guy. But to me, he is definitely not that guy. Do you know his name? Khalil Khan. Okay.

Do you think most people would know it? Not most people. Not enough. It's like one of those things to where, it's like one of those things to where would you know Bianca Lawson's name, only in a certain, I think also that guys can kind of be, they can be cultural things to that guy.

I think he's probably more well known. Blizzard might be that guy too. Blizzard might be that guy. But no, no, I'm not saying that Khalil is not a that guy. I'm just saying that like a lot of people. He's at the upper tier of that guy. I think the cop, Detective Kelly, Michael Bald Duke, Bataluko.

Yeah, he's a Italian homie. Yeah, he's that guy. That's who I had for that guy because he was making me laugh with that mustache. And he had a shit grin on his face, the entire interrogation. That was cool. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for either bad overacting or we know this is the leader of the Puerto Rican gang. Yeah. You can't do worse.

in this guy. I don't know what he's going for. Like, is he brain damage? What is happening? I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted to stir the pot last night while I was watching it, be like, Pac could kind of qualify for this award. Oh, he dows it up. Yeah, he thousand. He's going, you know, 110.

But this, this scenes where Rodames looks like he's about to make out with Pock. It's really weird. He's so crazy, bro. His face is insane. He's going so crazy. He's out of control. I laughed several times. This guy's going nuts,

like the whole time. This award might need to be named after Rodamez, man. Because he, yo, from the moment go, you could tell he was like, nah, I'm about to make myself into the next brando with this shit. Well, you know, it's funny. It doesn't land. In these vignettes that they have accompanied it,

they show these behind the scene stuff. And he's acting totally normal and he's interacting with everybody. And so it's clearly, going for it with the performance. It does not work. No. Can that's your question, Bill?

Before we move off to that guy, before we move off to, would you consider Jermaine Hopkins of that guy? The guy who plays Steele? For some reason, I feel like he's Jermaine Hopkins, because he was in Lean on Me and I knew him from different things. I didn't feel like he was pigeon old by the one movie. Okay.

I like Lean on Me. Jed Nelson Award for the person who feels like they're in a different movie, which we don't always have. this category, but I feel like the adult nurse and her ex-husband, it's just we're in a different movie for like a minute and a half. Where these people come from? What happened to my four guys?

You know, avoiding school for the day? And how does he even know this person? It's all very strange. The Dionne Waiter's Award. I really wanted to give it to Sam Jackson just because it's so fun to just throw it. But it has to be Queen Latifah. It just has to. For me.

Like, those are the only two people who are eligible to me. I went with Sam Jackson because his very last scene is, like, really funny. Like, super, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, part-jackjackson are in that very last scene. Yeah. So, for me, it was Sam Jackson, but he's in, like, a bunch of scenes with Queen Latif is in, like, you know, she's at the club, the competition, and the audition, and that's it. So, for me, it's Sam because his scenes in the movie are very memorable,

memorable, right? It's like he says, you know, when he says, I've known a lot of killers since they was kids. And advice to the young actors out there, Sam never made every single little bit in part he was in. He nailed it. He nailed it as the sick-up guy coming to America. Stax was memorable, even though they killed my boy in his underwear,

all of that stuff. And in this movie, he's just cool. Even the snappy-nappy-dug-out scene. We used to say that all the time. I'm saying for me. You know, Bill Hader told me that once about Saturday Live, that the guys who really succeed or the ladies who really succeed on that show are the ones that even if they don't really have a good part in a sketch

and you're just like the waiter and you have one line, can you crush that one line? Or if you're like the fourth person and you're basically there to like laugh at somebody else's whatever, are you just crushing it constantly? Sam's kind of like that, no matter what he was doing, he crushed whatever it was. He crushed it as he was Gator in Jungle Fever. And then I was thinking of Mo Better Blues. So he was in all of these Spike movies. He was Gator in Jungle Fever.

That is actually a fantastic performance. He's only in a couple of, you remember in Jungle Fever where he says, I don't want to have to go knock some old lady over the head to go get my money to get my crap. But I'll do it. You know I'll do it. And then he starts singing, you know I'll do it because I'm a crackhead. Like that's just like. He just committed to every single role.

His wife's in this movie, too. The famous Latanya. Yeah. She's one of the moms. Oh, interesting. Recasting couch. Look, anybody to be the Puerto Rican gang leader who was a dead actor. Listen, could I-Uzamo?

Yeah, or essay Morales. Could he play a little younger or whatever? Let's grab somebody, but I know we can do better. Half Asternet Research. I'm just going to read you this paragraph from the Entertainment Weekly piece. Tupac Chikor is lying on the sidewalk being kicked by members of the Repito Mueira, the Death Express gang.

A handheld camera focuses on a pair of black boots ferocially kicking away at Chikora's ribs. After a few takes, he finally comes up for air. Look, I'm not getting paid enough for this shit. This padding don't do Jack, he yells. I want more money. Why does the biggest motherfucker have to be beating me? Juice's prop master runs over to assuage

the bruised ribs of the star by taping more foam and padding under his sweatshirt. We had to reshoot this scene to make it look more really nervously explains. Dickerson kneels over the actor with words of reassurance. You're doing great. We've almost got it. This is an actual thing that happened.

They patted Tupac and kicked him, and he got really mad at everybody. How's there not video of this? It probably is. It probably is, man. Wriss and peace, Pop. Pock was a character, man. Also, Hopkins was nursing a bullet wound while filming the movie.

He told the filmmakers he had a football accident, but then they found out the real story that he had had a skin graft and he'd been shot and he was healing for the movie and he said I was healing during the movie that role was meant for me. Wow. The juice poster

Tupac's holding a gun and they airbrushed it out. Took it out. They were worried there was a real fear in the early 90s. Fascinating time for when they're releasing movies where they were worried about these kind of movies inciting violence. And this was all the studios.

they just don't want any sort of negative shit show. So they take the gun out and Dickerson's going crazy about it. They're pointing out other movies that have guns like Stop or my mom will shoot all that stuff. And they're like, fuck it. No, we're not doing it. Paramount Pictures just overruled everybody. And some of the original posters are out there. You can find them and they're like huge collector items.

Amazing. Yeah. Tupac wanted to stay in character so much he would aggressively ask everybody to call him Bishop when he was like really wanted to get into a scene so he's doing the method acting. I mentioned Epps learned how to spin as a DJ. Dickerson, the movie came initially

because he interviewed a bunch of his cousins' friends who lived around that area and just basically wrote down the best stories. When Bishop killed, the gang leader, the guy was accidentally shot in the neck with a blank and there's like a powder burn you can see in this scene.

Oh, wow. Did you know Omar Epps had his own singing group at the time called Vision? I did not know that. I did not. I read an oral history that Omar Epps was a part of where he said when they first got the script because it's interesting, Bill,

you said it was eight years old by the time it was made. He said when they first got the script, a lot of the dialogue was like 70 shit, like Jav, Turkey. and all kinds of ridiculousness. And they were like, no, you guys say it in your vernacular, which, thank God. Like, these dudes actually sound like guys from the streets of New York when they talk. And that goes a long way in this movie and making it feel so authentic.

The vision group, Queen Latifah loved Omar Epps. And he played them in tape. She loved it. And they ended up going on tour with her after the movie. Oh, wow. Homer Apps had a whole music side. Did not know that. I always love springing information that Van,

who prides himself on knowing everything, that's been surprised. Yeah. The dedication at the end of the film for Janet and Tamu is a personal dedication by Dickerson. Two people were killed. Janet was Dickerson's fiancé. And Tamu was a production assistant involved with the production.

It was murdered in Brooklyn after the film was in post-production. So that's what that meant. And then the DJ announcement at the end of the movie during the end credits came about during the test screenings because the audience want to know what happened in Q. And basically they make it seem like Q's has his mixtape played and he's on his way to becoming a professional DJ. So there you go.

Apex Mountain, Tupac, no. Ernest Dickerson, this is an interesting one. I don't really know the correct answer because he was the cinematographer on basically all of Spike's most important movies of the first 10 years of Spike's career. It's hard for me to think that's not. So maybe it's the fact that Malcolm X was coming out as Juice, same year, Juice is coming out. This has to be the Apex Mountain for him.

So the combo of that? So this is what I would say. This is the deal. This is going to, people are going to be mad at me when I say this. Juice is my second favorite Ernest Dickerson movie. I am unattached at the hip

to one of the worst movies ever made. And the movie is called Tales from the Crip, Demon Night. Oh, my God. I'll be honest with you guys. I love, literally, one of my top 10 favorite movies of all time. the best Billy Zane performance I've tried to make Kalika watch this movie

so many times she hates it she doesn't understand why I love it so much tells him to Crip Demon Night I know that's not his Apex Mountain this would have to be his Apex Mountain but also remember that he was very very instrumental as part of the creative team of the Wire as well

Yep So you know I don't know how you would do it It's tough if you ask people what Ernest Dickerson was known for or the biggest thing that he did would probably be Juke, but then if you brought up the wire, they would probably say that the wire,

I mean, he can't take credit for that, but he's had a long career. So probably, it's probably juice, but he's got some things that you can't have a combo of, yeah. Juice with Malcolm X. Same year, I think has to be. It has to be, yeah. We put out an excerpt from that Tupac book

on The Ringer back in June, and I was reading it, and it functions as a bit of an oral history. and the cast and director was talking about the two producers on the film, like those cats would go on to produce shit like the Fast and the Furious franchise and other crazy blockbusters. And that type of thing didn't happen coming out of this for Ernest Dickerson. And I think the point that she was trying to make like this might have been his career peak.

Like you know what I'm saying? Like the critical acclaim that this got, it was a modest commercial success for sure. So that might have been his career peak. Khalil Kane, Rahim, definitely the peak of his career. And Jermaine Hopkins too. Yeah. I had Neil Moritz on the BS podcast

four years ago when one of the Fast and Furious movies were coming out. And he told a whole story about how his version of how Tupac was cast in this thing. He does not get Apex Mountain for Juice because he goes on to be one of the producers

for the most successful action movie franchise. Maybe ever? There's been nine Fast and Furious movies at this point. Oh, Fast and Fier. Oh, he's the original film guy? Yeah. Yeah, shout out to them over there.

I got something to go with those guys. Apex Mount, Cindy Heron, abs of fucking Lutely, between this and EnVogue at the same time. Great job by her. Yeah, for sure. I looked through her up. She got married.

She had four kids. She's basically out of the business. But late 90s started having kids got domesticated. She was done. It was over for Invogue, probably around 97 or 90s. Yeah. Yeah.

They became a legacy. And that's another thing about, especially black music back in those days, if you had a five-year career, you were considered a veteran. Whereas, like, it's just a given. If you have, like, a big hit or two now in music, like, you have so many fans and you're able to pinpoint them in such an exact way so that, like, your touring apparatus can sustain itself afterwards, like, the idea of a five-year career in and just flaming out when you you have number ones on the R&B or hip hop or dance or whatever charts.

Like that doesn't exist now. If you achieve that level of success, your career is going to kind of sustain itself for a decent amount of time. Back then, man, if you was a rapper who was out for five years, I'm telling you, you were like a big deal, you know. And then, of course, like people like Ice Cube and LL, like they had prolonged careers in the spotlight. But, you know, we mentioned Kane and Rock.

their peace were like two or three years. Yeah. And then they were just like to the back burner. We started calling them quote unquote old school rappers. And that used to be the case for these R&B groups as well. So she was smart for getting out of Dodge. Well, you also had a couple of the mainstream gigantic artists sucked up a lot of oxygen too. Yeah.

That was the other thing. As always is the case. Yeah. Especially when Pock and Biggs are doing their thing. Yeah. That seems swallow up. And then Sleep Dog is in. I mean, Jesus Christ.

It was the biggest rapper in the world. What an era. Omar Epps, this was not as Apex Mountain. But I do have a question. Is this the Apex Mountain for Omar Epps characters named Quincy? Because he's done two. He did juice and he did love him basketball. How does he play two guys named Quincy?

I'm going to say love and basketball. He's who's Quincy, yeah. Was this the Apex Mountain for the Mix Master Master? I think it was. Yeah. Never to be heard from again. All right, here's a great one. Apex Mountain for the Omar Epps.

I'm so fucking mad at you. I'm crawling out of my skin face that he's made in a bunch of movies, right? Oh, I got to go with higher learning. I think higher learning's the answer, right? Because Remy, man, when he's looking at R-Gar-E-I-Gar-Larning. He did that weird thing. He bulge his eyes and his face would kind of shake. In higher learning, he just couldn't be, yeah, he does that a lot of movies.

It's like his move. It's like his He does have a lot of movies Signature move Yeah but it's got to be Higher Learning for that one though Apex Mountain for scratching In a film

I was just saying the whole era Nah We're talking 91, 92 range Like basically The scratching thing is a super huge deal Until the introduction of Cerrado Which I think is around like That had to be like

2002, around that time where right now you don't even bring records to your game. It's like all in your shit. It's all digital. So yeah. How about Harlem? Harlem as a movie location. Good question. So before this you had

because hold on, let's think real quick. So you had a rage in Harlem. You had Hulham takes place in Harlem. This is a good movie. New Jack City is Harlem, is it not? I think it's supposed to be Harlem, yeah. I don't know if they say necessarily that it's Harlem,

but I think you're meant to think that it's Harlem. I'd have to think about that. Harlem Knights. You got Harlem Knights. Harlem Knights, to me, would be, that's the most identifiable movie with Harlem to me. Like, I'd say, but as a New Yorker, I would say that it's paid in full.

Like New Yorkers would be tight If you don't mention paid in full As like straight up Harlem is a character Exactly Exactly I'm gonna give you according to Wikipedia Who knows if this is true

But some other movie shot in Harlem Shafed Ooh Superfly Okay It's about to get dicey King of New York Which we've done on the rewatchables

New Jack City Jungle Fever juice All back to back to back Die Hard with a vengeance. Not a Harlem movie, but maybe some of the scenes got... I'm just saying what's on here. Royal Tannen Bombs is on here for some reason. Paid and Full, you mentioned.

There's some 25th hour. And then American gangster, which I don't consider necessarily. Well, it would have to be because that's where his... I get it. Yeah, that's where his... It's about Frank Lucas. But we're going backwards and then. So to me,

To me, it would... It would be... It would be... Harlem's got a lot... Harlem Knights, Shaft. This is a good question. If you ever... Harlem Knights, Shaft, or

painful. Because it's generational. Yeah. It's really going to be generational in that... Shaft is probably the most famous of all of these movies. But damn, that's a tough one. Pickin' Nits. Picking Nits. We mentioned

Quincy dating an adult nurse for the next husband for some reason. So this is my biggest picking net. And look, I understand why they, I understand why they did it this way. Couldn't we have had the finals before GQ gets arrested? Couldn't, just from an entertainment standpoint. Why are you obsessed? From an entertainment standpoint, couldn't we have the showdown and he wins and then the

cops show up? No. We get one more fun scene and then. No, the whole purpose of that scene is the fact that the shit that he's into has cost him a chance to get out of his world's colliding. I get it. But you know what we need for you? Could we again? With the scene?

You know what we need for you? This is what we need for Bill. We need a whole mixed master movie. Basically it's like whiplash. Like whiplash. Right. With like whiplash. Call Trayvon.

Just go make it. Just go make you. Or my other thing is maybe this is three rounds. I wanted two rounds of him playing in front of the crowd and the cuts to Queen Latifah. Just say, no one. Come back to it. Not at all mad at this. Any other picket nits?

I have a few here. Yeah, let's go. Pock just straight up snitching on himself at the locker room in the school. Just like in the middle of the day, you're just yelling at this dude, just admitting to a fucking crime. Like, why are you snitching on yourself? I thought that was a bit much. where he hides the gat at the end

where he just puts in between the bricks on it and puts the bricks over it like bro what the fuck terrible hiding spot

why are you robbing your local bodega these people you're in there every day they know your profile they know your voice they know who you are unfortunately that's how it goes

you know like you know some people would say you should probably go at least three blocks up but whatever that was a picnic and my most important knit to pick

and my New Yorkers in the sort of underground whatever scene are going to fill me on this. Way too many women at that DJ battle. I promise you, there are no women at DJ battles, beat battles, these underground sort of things

that you might watch, J-Ruda Damager perform at or Buckshot or whatever. Like, it's straight up a bunch of dudes. Hate it on J-Rue for no reason. It's literally a bunch of dudes with Fidel Castro hats and Army Fatigue Pants and No Girls Inside. That's my number one knit to pick in the whole movie. There was a bunch of beautiful women at that DJ battle completely not true to life.

So my number one knit to pick about this movie, my only knit to pick about this movie, is actually me stealing a knit that my mother picked way long ago. The scene where he goes to buy the gun. He buys the gun from sweets. Sweets sells him the gun, then says, aren't you Lorraine Powell's boy? Tell your mother Jackie said hi. I remember we were watching a movie

and my mama said, don't tell me hi if you just sold my son a gun. Yeah. Don't send you anybody where I'm from, anybody that knows my mama is not going to sell me a gun. Facts. I'm not going to buy a gun from the land.

And there were gun runners and number runners and all of that. stuff. Like, if anything, when she said, are you Jackie Powell's son or whatever? Should have been, does your mama know what you out here doing? That you buying an illegal, does your mama know what kind of trouble you're in? That was the knit that my mother picked. This must have been like 95 or whatever we were watching this movie.

And she was like, ah, that don't make no sense. Ain't, ain't nobody I know going to sell you a gun. So that's a knit. That's a really good dipick. Nice job. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show is our next category. Please no. No thank you. It could be made. I know.

But it probably shouldn't. It gets to a point too quickly. It's like 43 minutes until things go bad, then it goes bad so fast. And again, the fact that this movie is one hour and 30 minutes front scum. Perfect. Perfect. It's fine. Even my son kept his attention the whole time. Probably unanswerable questions. All right. So I became briefly obsessed with Cindy Heron and why she wasn't a bigger star. So I deep-dived it, found out some info.

I was trying to think, like, she was too early. Tony Braxton, there's pre-Toney Braxton, and then there's post-Toney Braxton with celebrities mixing with sports worlds for high-profile relationships. So I was trying to think like, all right, let's redo Cindy Herron's career over again. She's in this band.

She's in a hit movie. Everybody loves her. Everybody's in love with her. Are we, like, matchmaking her with, like, Jamal Mashburn or something? No, because we're going into late 91, early 92 range. What celebrity boyfriend are we giving her who is a professional athlete? Good question.

And so Penny Hardaway, it's too early. He's not in the league yet. Emmett Smith? Nah, too big. I don't think his name is Smith. Also, Emmett Smith's kind of weird. It's got to be somebody who, I was thinking, what about Larry Johnson in Charlotte at that point? Coming out of UNLV?

He's like a baby, though. She's a little older. She's a little seasoned. Yeah. He's like at that point, L.J. was just kind of just coming into the league. Maybe,

but look, I go like, I think, when I think of a woman like Cindy Heron, right, because Donne Robinson's the lead singer of Vogue, by the way, just let you know.

Donne Robinson was the thing of Vogue. I think known player that's not quite a superstar. So what I think is, I think like Brian Jordan is what I have. It's crazy. I think like Brian Jordan

I think it's oh Cindy Heron and Brian Jordan because think about it Tony Braxton was going for stars Like like you know So not Randall Cunningham Or even please you like this Oh Randall Cunningham's a good one Randall Cunningham's a good one Randall Cunningham

Very Christian So she would have to change her place But yeah Randalli Cronet But like think about At the point that Hallie Berry was In her career at that point David Justice

David Justice That's what I'm talking about That really helped her It's smart. Absolutely. Turned not to be that smart. The relationship didn't go right. Yeah.

They broke up because he was having sex with hookers for the people. Yeah. There's a lot of bad shit. A lot of bad stuff with that. You see David Justice now he's a very nice guy. Sometimes he wants to be like, I know you had some dark times. Yeah.

But yeah. So yeah, I think that's what I would think. Or am I missing someone in the NBA? What about like... The David Justice is a good... That's a good lane. Famous but not like incredibly famous, but was on TV in big spots

because I think the big thing back then, 91, 92 is you want to be in the stands. Yep. For big playoff games, right? So if we're going to NBA, you're thinking like Ron Harper. Like, yeah, like, yeah. Hoover Davis.

Xavier McDaniel, those type of people. They're in the mix. Yeah. The bulls are in the mix. We have like the sons, the blazers. B.J. Armstrong. Terry Porter. B.J. Armstrong.

Jerome Cursey. What was the big, what was the big guy from, hold on, hold on. Well, it's a big guy from Seattle that used to shoot the three. Sean Kemp. Oh, no. Oh, Ricky Pierce.

You're talking about debt left shrimp? Oh, no. Not those guys. Dale Lerless. Sam. Oh, Sam Perkins. Sleepy Sam. Yeah, Sleepy Sam.

That's it. That's the answer. Like not deadlift all of those Sam Perkins. Yeah. Cindy Herod's dating Sam Perkins. I like it. That's it. He did it.

What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie, Wes? Well, probably the, the Malcolm X poster for sure. The Malcolm X poster in the room, like, because it's so prominent. And also like, like, do kids do this these days? Like, are high school kids putting pictures of like Bella Hadid in her underwear on their walls in their room? Do you want to come over to my house and look at Ben Simmons's room? Because the answer is yes.

Oh, okay, wonderful. Okay, good. Because, like, I thought that was a nice little touch. Like, you would literally precisely cut out the magazine picture and just nicely tape it on their wall. and it would be collages. Yeah, that era is back. From Jet magazine and all of that stuff. Jet.

But yeah, definitely the Malcolm X poster for me. I would want both of the turntables that it had in this room. That's awesome. Put him next to each other. That's such a good collector's item. Be like, what are those? You see the movie Juice? Kew's room in the beginning?

That feels like that would be worth something. By the way, I've always wanted to scratch records. Always. But how you can watch people do it and not want to? Like, I've always wanted. I've never in life like just scratched the record. I've never just, I saw one of my homeboys, Mike doing it one time. He was so fucking whacked that it made me not want to get up there and try it.

I've never done it before. So I would like to have turntables and scratch records and shit. Last question. Who in the movie? It's Tupac. It's not even close. It's just, I don't even know how anybody else could be in the discussion. It's his movie.

It's his vehicle. It's his like coming out party. It's, it's, this is a Tupac movie more than anything else. It's Tupac, man, for me. I'm a zag. I knew band was going to zag. I knew what you're doing. I knew it.

I know both of y'all going to have Pock. I've always felt like this. It's, to me, it's Omar Epps. Like, to, to. I mean, he does turn it into a legitimate 30-year acting career. No, no, no, not even because of that, because I think Pock would a, I think the guy that would, I think Pock would have been probably, Pock would have been that, whatever. But I think.

The movie gets pared down to the conscience of something. Like, Bishop comes, Bishop goes, Bishop is a storm, but like Q is like a present. And I really do feel like Omar Epps, his, Pop was so bombastic and so over the top as he was in real life, that Omar Epps's performance in this movie oftentimes gets overlooked. Yeah. But he was the Yang or the Yen to that. And I thought he did a fantastic job. I still think this is Omar Epps' movie.

I really do. too. But I understand the case. I think Tupac wins the movie itself. I think Omar Epps wins what comes out of the movie because this lays the framework for 30 years. Before we move on, I do want to mention one thing. Ralph McDaniels is a producer on this movie

and he's a legend in New York City, in hip-hop in general. Nas and his production company about to put out a documentary about Ralph Daniels and video music box. But that's out. Yeah, that already came out. So this guy basically had a public access show in New York City called video music box

where, again, you mentioned the bill. MTV was not playing your video if you were, you know, some of these underground sort of New York hip hop. It wasn't until the chronic. That was the first time MTV even sniffed it. And even if you weren't big enough to get on yo MTV raps like Ralph McDame's and video music box is how people watched your videos Saturday night, Friday

night in New York City and like it meant everything to be on that show and the fact that he was a producer on this movie is a big deal he got to get his flowers. Shouts to Ralph McDames man. Well, I want to let people know that while you might excoriate me over my

Demon Night take, Demon Night has Billy Zane, William Sadler, Jada Pinkett, CCH Pounder and Thomas Hayden Church in the movie and it is a hidden underground classic watch it this weekend. You'll have a lot of fun. Tell us from the Crypt Demon Night.

Hopefully we do it one day on the rewatchable spot. William Sadler Boggs from Shawshank? Yes, dog. William Sadler is the guy in the movie who is like protecting the blood of Jesus. Oh my God, Boggs. The blood of Jesus that they keep in the key.

And like they kind of keep the demons from getting it so that the demons can't unlock demon night. You know what? This is a job for me and Shay. I know that Shea loves this. This is a job for me and She. I'll let you guys say in all that. Was Van.

Fantastic to see you, as always. This podcast was produced by Craig Horlebeck, and we'll see you next week on the Rewatcher.