The Rewatchables - ‘Kramer vs. Kramer’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

In our fourth installment of F’ed Up Family February, The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin cannot eat ice cream until they finish rewatching Robert Benton’s 1979 Best Picture-winning drama ‘Kramer vs. Kramer,’ starring Dustin Hoffman, Meryl Streep, and Justin Henry. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love the rewatchables, did you know you can get the entire archive only on Spotify? We've done, I think, over 220 movies at this point. You can get the first 45 days of pods wherever. After that, entire archive dated back to 2017, only on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment, fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines?

Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car on Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly.

Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this tablewood?

I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. The rewatchables is also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where you can find the Ringerverse podcast House of R with Mallory Rubin. You can also find her in the NFL show from time to time. and Sean Fantasy, you can find him on the big picture, his movie podcast. So there you go. Coming up. She couldn't stand me, Billy.

She couldn't stand me. Kramer versus Kramer is next. Smile. That's it. Here's going. Here you go. Is this terrific? Kid, I'm leaving you.

What's this some kind of joke? Here are my keys. There's money. Don't you dare. You put that ice cream in your mouth and you are in very, very big trouble. you, Billy. We're going to be okay. Wow.

I want my son. You can't have them. Okay, keep it going. Keep it going. Kramer versus Kramer rated PG. Now playing at a selected theater near you. All right, it's the fourth installment of F-D-Up Family February. We are doing Kramer versus Kramer, one of the most successful dramas of the past 50 years.

One of the saddest movies, it is a divorce movie. That is why we were making this a COD podcast. Sean Fantasy, Mallory Rubin, myself, all children are divorced. Sorry to Amanda Dobbins, that she couldn't be here. She just had a baby, but she's our unofficial fourth for this one. Sean, I am going to zag in a way that you didn't expect. We're not going to talk about divorce to start this. This is a movie that won five Oscars was nominated for nine.

It won for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actress, Best Adapted Screenplay. It is the peak of Dustin Hoffman's career. it is the breakthrough moment of Merrill Streep's career, who's only the greatest actor or actress that we've ever had. It is a movie that has no sex, no action, no violence, and no comedy. It is basically a conversation situation movie. Sean, is this the most successful conversation movie ever? I haven't really had a chance to prepare for this question, Bill.

It's a pretty big one. That's a big one. Is it the most successful drama ever? Well, it was the number one movie at the box office in 1979. Do you mind if I read you some of the other movies that were released in 1979? Go. Here is the top 10. Number 10, the Muppet movie.

Perhaps you've heard of it. Number nine, the James Bond film Moonraker. Number eight, the jerk, which was Steve Martin's breakthrough, the number one stand-up comic in America. Number seven, ten, one of the most beloved sex comedies starring Beau Derek. Number six, Apocalypse Now. Number five, Alien. Number four, Star Trek the motion picture, the first Star Trek movie.

Number three, Rocky, two, the sequel to the Oscar-winning sports movie phenomenon. And number two, the Amityville Horror. That is an insane top ten. And the movie that made at least $20 million more than all of those movies that year is Kramer versus Kramer, a quiet domestic drama. So I had that in my back pocket in case you disagreed with me. On top of everything else about this movie, the fact that it looked,

all of these other amazing movies in 1979 in the eye and just made more money than all of them. It's amazing. It became a bigger deal than all of them. You have an iconic war movie, an iconic horror movie, an iconic comedy, an iconic sports movie sequel.

You have a movie that made Bo Derek one of the biggest stars in the world overnight. On and on down the line, and somehow Kramer versus Kramer was the number one movie. like, if you told me research in this, what number do you think of it? I would have said, like, number 11, number 15, number 20. No, number one. And now, on top of everything, it becomes the greatest divorce movie of all time, which is what we really care about here. Our new normal was just a burgeoning

trend back then, the early days. You know, why, how maybe, could a movie about divorce, a movie centered around conversations? The old Tyrion Lannister, you know, the greatest tree of the world is story of conversations in elegant rooms, right? Like, how could that be? It's because whether or not you have experienced this exact thing, it taps into something universal, which is family. Parenthood, marriage, relationships, lost family, found family. Like, the divorce story is so impactful and lasting in this movie because it is not just focused on the people who are involved in it directly. It's about the toll it takes on everybody in every day. thing that a moment like that in your life touches.

And then the foundation that you have to brick by brick work to rebuild with yourself and with other people. This is an incredibly painful movie to revisit. Incredibly painful. I'm looking forward to processing all of our feelings here today. It's also an exceptionally well-done movie. It is. It's about as well acted as you're going to get.

I don't think it drifts really at any point. You could argue maybe the first 25 minutes could go a tiny bit faster. But for the most part, it knows what the story is. It's got the classic arc of the guy who is one thing when the movie started and then evolves into something else. It does a lot of stuff without, I mean, there's scenes where there's no dialogue at all that advances the story that I just don't really think we see in movies anymore. Now movies, you have to have your hand held and get walked through. stuff. And this movie has no interest in doing that. And it catches two of the best actors, really ever at the same time. And producer Craig at the beginning of the podcast was saying,

he thought the kid won the movie. So you have that too. You have one of the great child actor performances ever. I think for me, so let's start to get personal here. Okay. Great. This movie comes out in 1979. My parents told me they were separating in December of 78. What? Yeah. So this movie comes out. How old were you? I was nine.

Okay. And this movie comes out. The little kid is named Billy. Yep. I honestly don't remember if I saw it in the theater or if I saw it on HBO after. But, you know, when your parents get divorced, it's one of those things where unless you're talking to other kids whose parents got divorced, like they understand. But if nobody did, they don't think.

it's, they're like, why was it so traumatic? Your parents get along. It's like, you don't understand. When you're the kid, you think it's your fault. And that's what this movie really taps into smartly, that there's that great scene when Hoffman's in the room. And he realizes that that's why his son's having so much trouble with this, that the son thinks mom left because of him. But that's little kids.

They don't know any better. They don't have anyone to talk to. This is also like before therapy or any of that stuff. And you could just have the weight of the world on your shoulders with all this. So anyway, the fact that this movie came out right after my parents got separated and eventually divorced with a little kid named Billy, who was like two years younger than me. Roots for Boston. It was fucking weird. Did you, when you saw it, did it make you feel better about your situation?

Did it help you better understand it? I don't remember. My bet is that I was probably, it probably made everything probably worse. Right? It's like too close. It's too personal. especially like my situation, not to go too deep, but like a year after my parents got divorced, my mom met somebody and she moved to Connecticut.

And it was a little bit of the same situation of where do you want to live, who do you want to be with, although the kid in this movie, he's not in that situation as much and he's a little younger. He doesn't have the same control. But it's, you know, at some point, part of the thing with divorce is you feel like you're picking between your parents at all time and how your parents leverage that against you, which I was lucky enough by parents, really do it too much. But Mal, like when you're when you're in between and you can be a pawn in whatever angry game is going on, that's when it can really go sideways and horribly, I think. Absolutely. I am also a child of divorce. This is like an AA meeting. Tell us your story, Mallory.

I think I will share my story with you now. But I will say before that, that one of the things I was really reflecting on watching this movie now to prepare for this chat with you both today is that one of the reasons I think this is so lasting and this is a movie that stays with us is because we grow with it and it grows with us and your perspective, the perspective that you bring to the movie changes as you grow. Like when I first watched this movie, I watched it as a child of divorce through that perspective, the kid's eyes, right? And I still do, I think, to an extent, like that's part of what remains really so affecting about it. But now I also watch it as a married person, which is a completely different, completely different experience to bring to.

And it actually really changed some of the response I had to the characters. Sean, you just had a baby, which I have no doubt you will talk about at some point today. I have no doubt also that that changes the way you watch the movie, right? So whatever that perspective is, whatever your specific relationship to divorce or to these characters is, there is just something so incredibly touching and moving, but also very, very difficult and challenging about watching it. It's never mockish. That's also part of why I think it's really lasting because that tenderness and impact comes

without this really heavy-handed quality and build a your point about like the quiet scenes. I think that was what I was maybe most struck by other than just the strength of the acting and the performances rewatching it is like the deafness of the shorthand. inside of the story and the progressions. Like the two French toast scenes, the breakfast scenes, the fact that that second one is silent, the little ways that they just interact and move around each other or around their home, the fact that we go from Ted closing the door when he uses the bathroom after Billy that first morning after Joanna leaves to the door being open and their parallel routines developing

like in harmony with each other. Nobody's talking about the fact that those changes are a part of their lives. we just witness them, we observe them. And so we feel really like we have traveled that road with them. And if that is a road that you have traveled yourself in any way, it really hits and really lingers. Like my parents split when I was three years old. So I was very young like, like, like Billy. And I in fact texted my mom last night to ask her to confirm the timeline because I was like, was I two and a half? Was I three and a half? When exactly was this? And I said, also can you remind me when we first watched Kramer versus Kramer? Because it is a movie that my mom

showed me and that we watched together, which is kind of like a fascinating experience to have gone through as well. So it's just, you know, and I, my husband is also a child of divorce, which makes it very interesting to watch the movie together. I think we both believe that sometimes marriages don't last if people get divorced, but that doesn't make it an easy thing just because it is a real thing. So very emotional journey, no matter how many times I see it. I remember I went back to school, I think after fifth grade, heading to sixth grade, and one of the girls in the class that I heard your parents are getting divorced. And I was like, first of all, how do you know that?

And then second, like, super ashamed. Like, I think divorce has probably a slightly different meaning now where it's a little more common than it was back then. And I think that's one of the reasons this movie hit the way it did and why it's not inconceivable to me. that it was a top 10 grossing movie, that it's number one is inconceivable to me. But, you know, like we see a lot of times with movies that hit, if you're taking people into this world

that's never been hit in a movie before the right way, and in this case, it was divorce. I don't, Sean, what were the other, like, what was the history of divorce movies heading into this movie? It could not have been that exciting. There certainly wasn't like a deep dive relationship movie like this about a divorce.

I think it was like the first one. I'm sure there have been other movies about divorce. I can't think of very many before this off the top of my head. I did think about this quite a bit when marriage story came out and I talked to Bound Back about it a little bit. I think one of the other signature ones is shoot the moon from 1982, which is sort of right in the aftermath of this one that is a pretty honest rendering of like a relationship coming apart.

But there's not, there were not a lot in the 60s. A lot of those films were about like maybe a woman was abandoned or by a man or it was a story about infidelity or just about like an acrimonious marriage. But very rarely did you see something that was like practically about what happens when people split and they have a kid. And that's really, that's all that this movie's really about. A reconcilable differences with Drew Barrymore, which is a really good movie that has just been erased from all the streamers for reasons that remain unclear Sharon Stones in it. That's a divorce movie where she actually files for emancipation. So it's like a little bit

of a comedy. But I think it hits a lot of this too. There was kind of of a divorce, broken marriage run that I, you know, this movie, ordinary people, there was a movie called Making Love about the husbands decides he's gay with Kate Jackson. Yeah, yeah. That was like a pretty radical movie at the time. Yeah, Harry Hamlin, Michael Ankeen, Kay Jackson. So there was a lot of like relationship gone wrong, relationship gone sideways. Woody Allen was obviously doing weird variations of that too.

You also had, in the 70s you had the movies like the promiscuous, promiscuous single woman where it could go sideways like a commisker good bar which is an insane movie to watch. That movie is nuts. Yeah, that movie is insane. The sexual politics of it are crazy.

I know. It's really crazy. But I think people felt like the politics of this movie was crazy when it came out to some degree. Like, wow, the mom's going to abandon her son and then try to get him back. I feel like she was way more of a villain in this movie than me.

Maybe in 2022, you're watching that character completely differently, right? I think the way that you understand it now is very different for sure. I mean, the movie definitely loads up the sympathies for the Hoffman character. And, you know, movie is developed by a male producer, written and directed by a man, starring a book, from a book written by a man, starring a very powerful movie star who had to be compelled to participate, who was just coming off of a divorce, who is notoriously emotionally complicated in Hoffman. And so obviously so much of the movie

is shot through the prism of like masculine frustration in the face of a broken marriage. But it's a little bit more complicated than that. You know, like the Merrill Street character does things in this movie that I find unforgivable and painful being a parent now. Now I'm like, I literally can't understand some of the things that she does.

But I do understand, I think, the way that she's feeling and that she feels like she needs a sense of relief and escape and a better understanding of herself. So it's not, it's just not a clean movie. That's the thing that's great about the movie is it's not like, like you said, Bill, it's not this handholding thing that we would get now where it's like, here's the bad guy, here's the good guy. There is an ethical quandary at the center of this movie, which is like, what is more important maintaining your family and your family structure and the sanctity of your child's health and well-being or yourself and your own health and mental well-being. And it forces you to confront

that question in a really serious way. It's a pretty powerful movie when you try to understand it from every single character's perspective. I think also the, well, I'm sure spent a lot of time talking about Ted's perspective and Joanna's perspective, but one of the things that is such an essential ingredient in the movie is Billy's perspective. Because like talking about, you know, stories centered on divorce or broken marriages that came up before, if you think about something like the original scenes from a marriage, which was early 70s, right? In TV miniseries, but the theatrical release as well in the compressed form, right? I was really struck when the new adaptation of that, the recent HBO Mac series, came out,

to go back to the original and see that like the children are non-entities in the story. The fact that their parents' relationship has fallen apart around them, they're like there as lines of dialogue and set dressing and almost like props. They're not real people and matters of consequence in the dynamic of a life. And so like when you're identifying Sean the aspect of yourself and that betterment or like pursuit of your own happiness and whether you have to balance or how you balance that when it comes to the expense of the most important thing in your life, your child, the way that the movie allows us or works to, establish some empathy for Joanna, some understanding for Joanna, while also, like, Ted has to work

his way toward that, too. When he starts off, it's not like he's a great guy who we love and are rooting for. He's completely self-involved, totally obsessed with his own work and his own career. And so he basically has the opportunity, the luxury of focusing on his own happiness and own success in a way that his partner never could, right? And so it's essential that that dynamic is established. Whatever side you come down on whoever you end up rooting for or thinking was right or wrong. I think that's probably a largely shared stance at the end, particularly given the ultimate culmination. But Billy's love and Billy's response and the pain that he has, like, one of the scenes that I have no doubt will talk about when Ted is reading him the letter. And I think that's the

other thing, like for us and probably many other children of divorce, I think about a moment like that and what it might be like to watch that movie without having gone through that and thinking, what would he be thinking as like he's five and a half in that scene early on? Would he be aware of what was happening? Would he be processing it? And it's like, yes, right? Now, there's a lot that you reflect on later and think about in a new way, but you do know what's happening. You do know what it means when one of your parents isn't there with you every minute of every day anymore. And that element of Billy is so prevalent in the film and it's just essential. I just don't think the alchemy of the movie works nearly as well and stays with us without that. I for years thought

the mother was kind of evil in this movie. I think the more I watch it, and I come back to this movie a lot just because I just think it's so well done. It's hard not to get sucked into it. But look, I think abandoning your kid is the single worst thing a person can do other than than murdering somebody. But I think I see it from her side. I think her feeling was like she was in a black hole and it was going to end with her just jumping out the window. And she had to get away because I think she thought she was going to die.

So it almost had nothing to do with the kid or anything. And it's a movie where you kind of have to watch it 10 times before you fully get it. And I think that's one of the best things about the movie. The characters are perfectly sketched out where I don't agree with that. the choice she made at all. But I kind of get it the way she explains it. And I wish she didn't feel that way. And she, and of course, Streep, if it's any other actress, you're not in.

If it's Kate Jackson, we'll talk about some of the casting what-ifs. It's just not going to get there. But she is, I mean, honestly, you can see her breaking. You can see her completely unraveling. You can see how much pain she's in. Even when she comes back and when she's in the courtroom, you can feel like the amount of pain she has in a way that's like unique to her. I just don't think any other actress, Sean, is there any other actress that could pull off that part that way? I honestly don't think

there's another one. I probably not. I mean, I think her performance is really what separates the movie from being basically just a TV movie with a great Dustin Hoffman performance in the middle of it. You know, it's like the story itself could be really boiled down to something a lot less elegant and a lot more like movie of the week. And the fact that you even attempt to understand where she's coming from, despite the fact that they basically force you to watch Dustin Hoffman become an incredible father for an hour, I mean, that's really what the bulk of the movie is this guy learning to be, learning to care for his son in the right way.

That is, and then you, all of your heart goes in Dustin Hoffman and Billy's direction. You're like, God, these, this team, this pair of people are so meant for each other. Like, their love is so powerful. And then all of a sudden she shows back up in the movie and you're like, get this woman out of here. Like, she betrayed these two people I've fallen in love with. And so the fact- Have her in the window in the coffee shop. Like she's a horror movie monster.

Yeah, exactly. She's a psychopath. And when they have that first sit down, I mean, we couldn't wait to talk about the scene specifically. But when they have that first sit down where she's like, I want him back. And he's so rageful. And you're totally with him. You're like, you're right, man. She fucked you over.

She left her son. She doesn't deserve anything. And the movie kind of, you have to see more and more and more of her and more of Streep's performance to better understand it. But the movie does pull some punches and make some complicated decisions. I feel like we should kind of unpack the ending a little bit when the time is right because it's very debatable that, I mean, the movie would probably would not be concluded the way that it today, the way that it is concluded in 1979.

I mean, you know, just generally though, like, I don't know when I saw this movie, but I was probably, I think I was 10 and 11 when my parents split. My parents split. They tried to get back together and then they split again. The two most vivid memories of my childhood, bar none, are my parents sitting me down to tell me they're splitting up. And then my parents sitting me down two years later to tell me they're splitting up again. It's violently traumatic. And you people hear COD say that and they're like, get over it clown. It's a big deal. And it becomes like a, it becomes like a rallying point in your life where you're like, better understand yourself through this thing that happened. And it makes you both more sensitive

and more calloused. You know, you're kind of like, I can take on anything. I'm very strong. I have a very hard exterior. But also, you're like, I feel things very deeply. And so be careful what you say to me because I won't forget what you said. I'm very mindful of the things that you're doing right now. And so this movie like really, really taps into that. You can see every conversation that Hoffman is having with Billy. Billy is feeling it. Like he is really processing the wisdom, the negativity. you know, when he's angry at him, that's a scary thing for Billy. He's like, you're all I've got and you hate me. And that's like, that's so complicated to be in that position.

So the movie is just incredibly artful and complex in a way that so few movies, even in the great 1970s American cinema, it's still kind of like is a cut above most of the stuff that we saw. You know, there's another piece about like she left, right, which is part that I could identify with because when my parents got divorced, it was probably more of my mom's side than my dad's. side. They get along great now. But you feel like, especially when one parent finds somebody and the other doesn't, you feel this attachment to the parent. Like, well, now it's just us. Well, you're not,

you're not going to lose me. And that movie taps into that really nicely where they become this team, right? So when she comes back, it's not just that. It's like you don't, you don't deserve this person. You don't deserve Billy. You don't deserve to get him back. You ditched him for 15 months. Fuck you. It's more, it's more like you're breaking up these two, these two that they're a team now. And that's why when Jane Alexander's on the, on the stand. And that lawyer keeps cutting her off. Yeah. And she's like, Joanna, they're beautiful together. You should see them. And you're like, thank you. Somebody saying this. You know, you're rooting for it. One of the many tear jerker moments of this movie, Mel.

So many. Oh, my God. I mean, I'm a absolute blubbering mess watching this movie. I've probably seen this, I don't know how many times I've seen this movie, like dozens of times. I, I find it as, as gut-wrenching every single time. And actually, like, I think when I watched it a couple years ago, it was the first time I had seen it in a while. I actually watched it when marriage, when marriage story came out. And, uh, almost couldn't believe, like, how it just hit me like a house. It's like, I've seen this so many times. Why am I responsible? this way. But, you know, it's impossible, as Sean was just saying, I think, not to think about your own life and the way that something like this kind of defines and stays with you in ways

both good and bad. Like, I feel, you know, personally fortunate that my parents were able to, like, maintain civility with each other and are both present in my life and my sister's life and that I'm very close with both of them. But even that, you watch a scene like Billy, when Joanna asks for the visit, right? And Sean, see the lawyer calls up and says she's got, you know, you got to let him see his mom. And that moment when Billy runs to her and the score kind of like surges and there's this euphoric, joyful energy.

And it's such a potent and poignant moment and a reminder that for Billy, for that child, He loves both of his parents. He wants to have a life with both of his parents. And the fact that his parents, like in one of the most agonizing moments of the movie when Ted finds out that he's lost, initially says, well, you know, money is no object, anything that we have to do, I won't accept this, right? And it's only when his lawyer tells him, well, Billy will have to take the stand. Billy will be the one who suffers next that he decides, like, that's not something

that he can abide. That's not something that he can tolerate because that's the entire point to protect his child, to not cause him any more pain. And, you know, you think about that all the time. Like, how can you be there for one of your parents and support one of them without the other one feeling like that's, that's some judgment, right, or some indictment of what you have with them? This is like an eternal balancing act across, like, life. It's unending. There's no expiration date on that. I mean, at least that's how I feel about it. And, It was so interesting because, like I said, I texted my mom last night, and my mom's the one who showed me this.

And I'm very close to my mom, but I'm, you know, very close with my dad. And so many of the things in my life that are, like, central to my life, sports, literature, fantasy stories, those are things that when I would go to my dad's every other weekend and the four days a month that I had with him. And he was very present. He would come to soccer games and everything. But those were the things we spent our time doing. And I, when I take time now to reflect on it, I'm like, I built my entire life around those moments with my dad. like how does my mom feel about that? You know?

And like when I texted her about this, I was kind of like, what is her response to this question going to be? I told her we were talking about the movie I asked when she first showed it to me. And she sent like the sweetest note about how I was making her really nostalgic to think about watching this together

and like having the opportunity to talk about some of this stuff together and then asked if we could set a time to FaceTime this weekend. And, you know, I don't think that that's necessarily like everybody's experience with it. But I now as an adult, you know, I'm 35 now. Like I said, I'm married and I'm trying to think of it more that way. Like, what lessons can I glean about how to try to be like a more present person in my own life and my own marriage?

And should I ever, you know, have a child for my own family one day? But you grow with the movie, like I said earlier. I a little different than my parents. My mom really resented that my dad became a big character in my columns. And would bring it up after a couple glasses of wine and take it. take shots about it. And she was like, I don't remember your dad there when I was reading to you your entire time. And the whole reason you're a writer is because of me and that's my side of the family. But you never put that in your columns. And so, yeah, that sounds a little bit like my

experience, too. I definitely was a little bit of a political football at times between my parents. I don't think I ever watch this with either one of my folks. I don't know what they would think about a movie like this. I always felt like whenever something like about divorce in popular culture came up. They both got a little tense. You know, they both got a little like, I don't want to Mike to be confronted with this with my kid, you know? That's an Irish thing, though. Very much. Very much so. There should be, the Irish Kramer versus Kramer would just be no dialogue at all. Yes. And people getting bombed from 1934. A big explosion and nobody talking about it the next day. Yeah. It's, it's tricky. I mean, I don't, I'm, you know, Bill, you're really close to your dad.

Mal you're really close to your dad. My dad and I get along very well, but I was really, really raised by my mom. You know, my mom, especially my parents split, you know, she, she was a single mom with three kids and the arrangement actually at the end of Kramer versus Kramer that they announced that he's going to have to abide by. I know this is true for you, Mal too, because we just talked about it, but that was the exact arrangement that I had, which was every other weekend, half of holidays, you know, I knew all about my parents, like alimony and child support. Like, I knew all that stuff. My mom was very open with me about a lot of those things. So I felt like I had a lot of access into the, like, not just the emotional damage and complexity of this stuff,

but the, like, the very practical, kind of legal nature of splitting up. And so when you're watching the movie, too, you can't help but think about this. Marriage story does a really good job of this, too. But showing you, like, the legal setting is very destructive, and it really pits people against each other in a way that is so awful. And the movie also does a careful job of that. I don't think it's the most accurate rendition of the way that, you know, family court works. Yeah.

Certainly not. It does show you like what happens when families get thrown into these environments. Yes. It captures the sense of that being really the ugliest arena of war possible. Yeah, the three stages of how horrible divorce is is one, the actual breakup. Because ultimately nobody has ever had a 50-50 breakup. It's always one side wants a little more than the other. So there's always going to be some stuff with that.

The court piece of it, you know, there's two moments with this court thing. One was when she, the lawyer brings up how he got hurt in the jungle gym, the little kid, and quotes the dad, this thing that the dad that Hoffman told Streep, you know, in this really, I don't know, kind of a nice moment that they were having. It was like, this thing happened. I was really, and then he uses it against her. And then the same thing with her, when his lawyer is hammering her. And they kind of make eye contact Streepin Hoffman.

And he's just like shaking his head like, you were a good mother. You know, it's, but man, you bring that stuff up. That's brutal. And then the third piece is what Sean just mentioned about the kid kind of going back and forth between the two sides, right? And if that's, and I was lucky enough, that didn't really get used in a negative way. And my parents got along. Like by the time I was in college, all my parents and my stepparents, they would all come for

my birthday dinner. My people on my floor would make fun of me. Like, oh my God, those four parents are here. But that can go the worst out of anything when if the two parents hate each other. Yeah. And now the kid is being used as the pawn and the hate. That's where, that's how you get really fucked up divorce stuff, which I don't think happen to the three of us. Yeah, no. My parents didn't hate each other. I think it was always just a little tense, you know, and, it being a little tense means it like it could go sideways at any point. But I also wasn't an only child. You know, I had siblings and my siblings and I really counted on each other to be able to talk about this stuff, to kind of figure out how to feel about it. And also, frankly, to hang out together

because that's one of the interesting things about this movie. It's really about, and Bill, you probably relate to this the most. It's just him and his dad, you know? It's not like me and my brother and my sister are really tight. And so when we would go to my dad's house, we'd have each other too. You know, it wouldn't be like we have to forge this relationship with our one parent. And I assume that you must have clicked with that when you were watching it too. Oh, yeah. I mean, I live with my dad. It was just me and him an apartment that looked very similar to actually the apartment that they have in this movie.

And it was when I was in sixth grade and seventh grade. And, you know, my dad would come home at 5.36 o'clock. I was home all day alone every day, whatever, after school, just trying to figure. Do whatever, watch TV, read books. But, you know, we went to Celtic games and all that stuff. Then the weekends, every other weekend you go in the other place. And then when I moved to Connecticut with my mom, it switched. And now I'm going to Boston and, you know, every.

But yeah, I think the one-on-one time is actually probably better. It probably brings the kid and the parent closer. But I'm not saying it's normal. It feels like it's more normal now. I didn't have a lot of friends who were divorced when I was a kid. So similar to you, like you were saying, I didn't really have a ton of people I could be like, isn't this really weird how like I'm just not hanging out with all of you guys like every other weekend? Like all my friends were doing stuff. You know, I was like, so I just missed one fifth of my social life like from the age of 10 to 20. And I was like, for whatever reason, I couldn't get over that. I was like, this just doesn't seem like the right way to do things. Like you guys should be forced to live in the same town. You know? But that's not the, that's obviously the opposite of divorces. People are like, I want to have my own life the way that I want to have it. So it's, the movie is really good at, like, looking at all of those things in micro too.

It basically makes you look at the very small decisions that go into the way that all of these people are going to be forced to live for the rest of their lives. It's really kind of an amazing accomplishment. Let's take a break. And then a couple more things to discuss about this movie. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it. with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty, limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch,

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All right, so some stuff with this movie. You want to talk about Meryl Streep a little bit? Married to John Cazio, who has the greatest IMDB of all time, or not married, engaged. His IMDB is the goat. It'll never be topped. It's the equivalent of just somebody being in five NBA seasons and being on five NBA champions and then retiring.

He doesn't retire. He dies with cancer. but he's dating her and she's in love with him. He's dying as they're filming the Deer Hunter, which looking back at that cast is pretty crazy. And she becomes kind of, oh, this is one of the hot young actresses. Watch out for her.

Then in 1979, she does The Seduction of Joe Tynan, which is a movie that you cannot find anywhere, and I would love to see again. But I don't, I think all copies might have been destroyed without all the political thriller. I bought a blue ray for $2,99 of this film recently. It was just issued on Blu-ray like six months ago. How was it?

It was the only way you could see it. It was pretty good. I had seen it before on TV many years ago, but Alan Alda underrated, you know? Yeah. So she gets Alan Alda still at it is like when he could lead with movies. She's in Manhattan with Woody Allen and then she's in this movie. And that's it. She becomes Merrill Street.

This was the star making. I mean, she's in the number one movie of the year. this polarizing character. What am I missing? What am I missing with the early Merrill Street Park, Mel? I think that, you know, the Oscar performance is obviously notable. I mean, the movie was nominated for nine Oscars, right, one five, as you said. And it had a couple nominees in the best supporting actress category, right?

And, you know, I suspect over the course of the podcast, today we will talk a bit about the Streep Hoffman off film dynamic and all of the accounts. Should we just do that now? It's like the elephant in the room over this movie. You want to go ahead. So you can start it. So numerous stories, numerous places that you can, pieces that you can Google, read for more information. I think the Michael Schulman 2016 Vanity Fair piece is certainly essential reading on this front. There's a Carol Buckley, New York Times article from 2017 that is pertinent, among others. But, you know, there's a series of stories that Merrill Street has shared over the years about things that transpired while making the movie.

That Dustin Hoffman slapped her as they were filming a scene, that he did not tell her that he was going to throw the wine glass into the wall and shatter it, you know, coating her hair and glass, that he, you just mentioned Junk Sale, that he would, you know, in essence, leverage that name and his death and that pain by mentioning him between takes on set to try to make her, to make her more upset, to unsettle her. upset. And that it was an incredibly, as those examples I think illustrate, noxious and unpleasant environment that she has spoken about over the years.

She also gave a 1979 time magazine interview and said that Hoffman groped her breast the first time they met. So you had all this stuff up and it's not awesome. Now he is famous method actor. Famous asshole, Sean. I mean, is that like top three of all like the A-list actors, like probably top three with the reputation of quote-unquote difficult who actually succeeded? Yeah, I mean, I think his version of difficult is particularly alarming. And so some of this stuff is pretty messy and unfortunate. And, you know, Hoffman has been like a very controversial figure pretty much since he first landed on the scene because he's so intense.

And he has this very defined. we have to live inside of the character's approach to doing this work. You know, he's obviously literally, as you said at the top of the episode, like one of the seven or eight male screen performers ever. I mean, he's like hugely decorated. Almost every movie he made in the 70s is if not a great film, a fascinating movie. He was really daring in the kind of parts he took on. He's played the great parts.

You know, he's in Death of a Salesman. Like, he's kind of done it all. But all things being equal, he just seems like a prick. and like, I don't know, like, how do you watch that with the performance? I mean, in many ways, it helps the performance. Does that mean, it was the right thing to do? No, it wasn't the right thing. I mean, it's crazy some of the things that he did and could be perceived as at least tolerable on a film set in the late 70s.

Things have changed a lot. If you saw a story like this today, it would be the biggest crisis in Hollywood for a month. Yeah, the slap scene. So she told the New York Times this in 2018, quote, this was my first movie. It was my first take in my first movie. and he just slapped me. And you could see it in the movie. It was overstepping.

I don't actually remember her getting slapped in the movie. But it must have been a scene that they picked where he didn't slap her, but she was probably still a little rattled by that. But yeah, it's not awesome. Different times back in the 70s. As Shod said, I think if any of this happened now, I think people would lose their mind.

But even when you watch the Oscars of the different wins, Like, she was cordialed in him even at the Oscars, you know? And I think a lot of, there was a lot of weird behavior in the 70s and 80s that people just kind of go, ah, you know, it's Dustin being Dustin. But that just would not fly now. The thing that's interesting about it, too, is because this has now been true for basically almost 45, 50 years with Merrill Streep is consummate professional. The most can withstand any BS performer of all time.

And they talk, you know, Benton, the director and Stanley Jaffe, the producer, they all talked about how through all of this, she was hyper professional, that she was only about the work, that she never let this affect her personally, or at least didn't show that to the people while they were making the movie. It's kind of amazing to think about this was not a super seasoned actor. She was like she had worked on stage and she'd appeared in a couple of movies. But for this huge part in this big movie with one of the greatest living actors and then to have all this wild shit, to have her dead lovers, name berated at her to motivate her to give a performance. That's wild stuff. I mean, that just, that just seems kind of evil, honestly. Hoffman, you mentioned his 70s. So the movies he made right before this, he did the All the President's Ben Marathon Man combo in 1976, which Sean and I were talking about if there was the Oscars category of who just had the best year. That's a good example.

of the Hoffman 76. I think he probably takes it. Straight time in 1978. Agatha in 1970. I don't remember Agatha. What was Agatha? It's an Agatha Christie adaptation. It's like a story in part about her. It's about her, the 11 days she disappeared. Came and went. Then Kramer versus Kramer. And then he doesn't work for three years because he's doing Broadway stuff and comes back with Tutsi, where he plays the difficult actor, which I think was kind of part of the joke of him. being the guy in that movie. And also it's famously difficult on the set of Tootsie. Right.

Streep, I mean, Jesus. She goes from Kramer versus Kramer to the French lieutenant's woman, still of the night, also directed by Robert Benton, which is a bizarre movie. What is that? On Amazon?

It's on one of those. It's really weird. Roy Scheider. I don't even know how to describe that one. And then goes into that, Sophie's Choice, Silkwood, out of Africa, heartburn.

And she's just off. She's winning Oscar. and doing the whole thing and one of the great actresses. I mean, she is the greatest actress. I don't even know what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean, her arrow went up and his went down until Rain Man, basically.

Yeah, pretty much. $8 million budget made $173 million. So there's a thing about, Sean, people thought this was like the unofficial sequel to the graduate? Yeah, I was going to ask you about this. I don't know if I see that one. I don't know.

It seems like a strong. stretch. Well, Mel, I'm curious what you think. Because, you know, the idea is that, obviously, at the end when, when Ben and Elaine are in the back of the bus, and they've just gotten married, and then there's the what now sensation that kind of summarizes the anxiety of late 60s, early 70s, kind of baby boomerdom. And then cut to 10 years later, you got married. You had a kid. You have a job. You're a professional person. You have responsibilities. You have frustrations and anxiety is an ambition and you're still asking yourself what now. And so in that way, I get what people mean when they say that. But I don't think Benjamin is Hoffman's character.

I don't think they're anywhere close to it. They're not really similar at all. So I don't see it. And Elaine is, I mean, nothing really like, like Merrill Street's character. So like I guess kind of spiritually, I know what they're saying, that this is like from the end of one decade to the end of another. It's a reasonable point. But when you think about it in an impractical terms, it doesn't work for me. What do you think, Mel? Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned this because I was curious to ask both of you about this too. It struck me as odd as well. You know, and when you hear, when you read or, you know, there's the making of featureettes and all of these places where you can, you'd see Benton and Jaffe talk about how Dustin Hoffman, despite all, you know,

of the casting what ifs that we'll go through and the other people who were actually talking to them about the role, the person that they actually specifically penned the script for. Like the role was written for him. That was who they wanted to play. And, you know, people, like some of the people say this about movies and sometimes it's apocry. But it like seems sincere in this case, right? Yeah. And one of the things that's kind of feels like a disconnect between the characters and the films in terms of this like corollary or continuation that they're trying to establish. I'm always struck by how across the movie, but particularly like in the trial and the hearing sequences in the courtroom, it just doesn't seem like these people were really ever that in love with each other. Like we never really quite that enamored of each other. You know, it's like, well, we were married for a year before the kid

and then seven years, you know, this eight-year marriage. Well, was this not the longest relationship of your life? Like, they can barely even remember being together, right? So, like, I find that disconnect makes it too high of a barrier for entry for me to kind of like buy into this Hollywood tail and yarn because you think of that trice in that romance as being this kind of like all-consuming thing that you're going to blow up your life for and I never really feel that with Ted and Joanna. However, the part where I do see it more and think that it makes a

little more sense is the idea that the role that Hoffman is portraying could be become iconic, could become this archetype for a time in your life and the way that you think about relationships at a time in your life, right? That this would become the defining portrait of a certain type of interaction with another person. But it's a little weird. I'm halfway there with what you just said. I think, I think, no, I think there's, I think there's pieces of it. I do see the relationship between the movies, but I don't think it has anything to do with Hoffman. To me, it's like the graduate, and one of the reasons it hit so hard was it was, you know, these two eras that one era was ending, the other era was beginning just in general. And where Hoffman's character was going and the fact that he didn't know where he was going, it was okay.

But he knew he was leaving this era that was basically over, right? Kramer versus Kramer does capture something that was going on in the 70s where, you know, there was just a freedom to either, I don't want to stay married to this person, I'm out. I want to start having sex with people and go into nightclubs and doing stuff. I'm going to do it. I'm going to try more drugs. I'm going to, you know, take whatever chance.

There was kind of a chaos to 77, 78, 79, which is in a lot of the movies, you know. And even something as generic as somebody going through a divorce, like I just don't think they would have made that movie. years ago. And I do think this was a common theme, like people who just got married right out of college and looked at each other at age 28 and were like, eh, you know, in the 40s, 50s, 60s, you just stuck together anyway. I think, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think the ages of the characters is kind of important because obviously Hoffman is older than Streep, but Streep when she was shooting the movie was 29. So that leads you to believe that she's 21, 22, 23 when she had a kid.

Yep. That's young. That's really young. And that's one of the of the things that starts to radically change in the 80s and 90s, too, is people are starting to wait a long time to have children. I just had a kid. I'm 39 years old. Like, we waited, I've been with my wife the whole time, my whole adult life. We waited 18 years together to have a child. So, let's bring in Mallory's mom to ask when Mallory's going to have a kid. Malar, come on in. Come on in, Mallory's, Bob. Oh, God. I'm sure she's crafting the text message as she's listening to this. But that age point is a great one because it's also important to keep in mind when you think about to sequences where Joanna talks about her career and putting that on hold.

Like, you would be at the dawn of all of that, the beginning of all of that, right? And it's the thing that Ted then got to build and, like, again, luxuriated and boast about the Burberry 37 short jacket that he looks so beautiful in, right? And again, not to be clear, like not to minimize in any way the beauty of having a child. But Joanna did her life, the thing that she had worked for. was put on hold. And to hear her say in the courtroom that Ted told her that she couldn't get a job

that would make enough money to cover a babysitter would be like a, that would be a terrible thing. Also, she said she went to Smith. So it's like, oh, so you were at, you actually went to a really tough college. Yeah, she's in the art department and Madame Wazel. Like she, she, you know, was doing her own thing.

One more thing. If I could just circle back to Streep for one more moment because Sean, you just noted how, you know, how young she was. and Bill you ran through how early in her filmography this was. There are a lot of stories around the movie about how adamant she was

about the character and needing to flesh the character out and make it a little bit less of the one-note villain like, oh my God, how could you possibly work your way toward any empathy for this person? And I think that especially given what we just outlined

about the nature of the interactions with her co-stars and on the set, that's like a pretty remarkable thing for her to have the conviction to push for. I just think that's awesome. Not awesome that she felt like she had to, but awesome that she did. Well, apparently the book character was way more villainous. Yeah. And I think she pushed them hard on making the character at least more sympathetic. But the big thing was they let her rewrite the courtroom speech. Right. And I don't think she changed that much, but they say, everyone who was around it made a point of saying,

like, whatever she did, that was like, it's almost the perfect kind of two-minute monologue that you can have in a movie. Speaking of the Oscars and Streep, what a year. This is a really good Oscars. 1980 Oscars. Kramer versus Kramer wins. It beats all that jazz. Apocloops now breaking away in Norma Ray. It's not nothing. You could argue. Do doing it again, Alien should have gotten the normal race spot. 100%. Best supporting actress, Merrill Street wins. She beats Jane Alexander.

She beats Barbara Barry and Breaking Away, who's great. And that's a great movie. And Breaking Way is another one that easily could have slid in that best picture spot. Love Breaking Away. Great movie. She beats Candice Bergen and Starting Over, who's awesome in that movie. And that's like one of my favorite Boston movies. Another divorce movie, by the way.

That's right. And then Merrill Hemingway and Manor. Manhattan. Pretty good category. Problematic character all these years later, but Merrill Hilley's good in that movie. And then Hoffman beats Jack Lemon, Al Pacino, Roy Shider, and Peter Sellers. And the big loser is Roy Shider for all that jazz, because that's an awesome performance. And he probably wins, what, 70% of the years? It's hard of every three he's winning for that. It's hard to say in the 70s because it was so competitive in all the winners you look at and you're like, wow, this is heavy hitter time. But he was only nominated twice and he never

won and he was one of the great stars of the 70s. That performance is one of the greatest in the history of movies, him kind of basically playing Bob Fawsey. So it's tough, but also, you know, he's going against, he's going against Hoffman. It's brutal. Like, he's probably looking at, well, I don't know if he's alive, but when we got to the stage where like Forrest Whitaker's winning for Last King of Scotland and those type of performances, like, oh, my, really? Really? Really? You mentioned in the still of the night just a couple of years later. And that's kind of where it starts to go downhill for Shider as a mainstream leading man, too.

So he didn't have too many more bites at the apple after that. And then at one for Best Screenplay as well, it beat Apocryptu, and Little Romance, and Norma Rui. And then Benton went for Best Director. He beat Fawsey and Coppola and Peter Yates and Edward Molarro. All things being equal,

if Francis Ford Coppola had not completely dominated the 1970s with the godfather, the conversation, the godfather part two. You got to say, like, I don't, and knowing what we know about what it took to make apocalypse now. That's the one that's the, I agree with it.

It's a little tough. Like, I like Robert Benton. He's one of the most important screenwriters in the history of movies. He wrote Bonnie and Clyde with his partner, David Newman. He's a hugely important dude. He made some good movies.

Directing Kramer versus Kramer is not a greater achievement than directing Apocalypse now. It's just not. It's shocking. Kramer versus Kramer was one of my favorite movies of all time. It's shocking to look back and realize the Coppola didn't win best director for Apocalypse Now. Shocking. He does do an awesome job in that movie directing it.

It's just like Apoclops now. Beautifully directed. Yeah. There's some good stuff. Like even when he talks to Billy about that, you know, he's going to live with his mom and he's going to see him every other Wednesday. But the way that shot with whatever that, like, weird jungle gym thing, was and the camera's far.

Like he has a lot of moments like that. We're like, oh, this is, this is good. You're not just nail in the wilderness in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he, he sought out Nestor Almenros who shot the movie, who shot like many of the most important French New Wave movies and then started to work with Terrence Malik. He's one of the most decorated cinematographers of all time. Like, is a very artfully made movie.

But to your first point you made, Bill, You could do. Basically, you are directing performance and then two or three scenes the way that they're blocked. Like when Billy falls off the jungle gym, that's like out of a horror movie. You know, like your heart skips a beat when that scene happens because it's so well done. But there are not a ton of moments like that in the movie. Really good job with the running in that scene, how the camera just falls them for like three blocks. Unbelievable. Our guy, Raj, who's on an all-time bender on the rewatchables, just week after week, just absolutely crushing it. Maybe fucked up family. was his wheelhouse. Is he COD?

I don't know. Is Rod's COD? Maybe. Four stars. Quote, that's what makes Kramer versus Kramer such a touching film. We get the feeling at times

that personalities are changing and decisions are being made even as we watch them. It's a long, glowing review about this movie and all the things he liked. As you know, Raj loves plot and character.

He does. You got those two things in there. Rodgers. As happy as a as a clam. I'm happy for him. He's like a drunken sailor with positive takes on the rewatchables lately.

It's awesome. You know, really ever since we gave him the narrative podcast, Francisco and Iber one, he's been on fire with the rewatchables, just totally coincidentally.

We're going to take one more break and do most rewatchable scene. All right, so I don't know if this is most rewatchable scene, most gut-wrenching scene, best scene. Some of these scenes are not rewatchable.

Joanna leaving You guys eat Ted I'm leaving you Ted Keys Here are my keys Here's my American Express card Here's my Bloomingdale's credit card

Here's my checkbook I've taken $2,000 out of our savings account Because that's what I had in the bank When we first got married What's this some kind of joke Here's the cleaning Here's the laundry ticket You can pick them both up on Saturday

You have to pick them up on Saturday You have to pick them up on Saturday I've paid the rent I paid the con ad bill and I paid the phone bill so. Or you really pick your time, I don't like that scene.

They're all so painful. We need another label for this just like we did for ordinary people. My American Express cards on the counter. Here are the car keys. I took $2,000. That's what we started out with. And he's like, what?

What's going on? He is so, it is such an effective foundation for the rest of the story. Even before the actual leaving scene, we have the contrast of her saying goodbye to Billy. And like to talk about the direction

and the cinematography again, look at even just that opening sequence where when the camera's on Billy, the clouds are behind him. He's bathed in that light. And when it's on Joanna, she's just like shrouded in darkness, right? Yeah.

You cut to Ted. It's just boastful at work. Cut it up with Jim O'Connor. Stay in late. Let's go get some. Pups. And he is so preoccupied, just with his own stuff, his own life, that as his wife is telling him, she is leaving him, he quite literally is not aware of what she is saying to him and what

is happening. Honey, please, I can't hear, right? Because he's on a call. And when she finally does get his attention laying out the cards and everything you just said, Bill, he can only see it in terms of how it affects himself, which like in some ways, I think is like a human response, right? That would almost be your instinct. What does this mean for me before you think about everything else? But he says, boy, you really pick your times. You know, I'm sorry. I was late. I was busy making a living, all right? And when the, we get to that

hammer moment where the elevator door is closing and he says, Joanna, please. And she says, and I don't love you anymore. It's just fascinating scene construction because that is, such a devastating, cutting thing to say and cutting moment. And it's just like an afterthought. In that sea of despair that defines

the scene, it's like priming us for just what a barrage of gut punches await us. Well, and on top of it, the kid has to wake up the next morning. Yes. And the mom's gone. But before that, Margaret comes

to check on Ted, which is, I think, another Do we consider that a continuation of Joanna leaving or its own scene? Hmm. Nah, that's its own scene. That's an amazing one. This movie really gets better as it goes along, I think is fair to say. The silent breakfast routine with the two of them. I like when they make the French toast too and he's fucking up the French toast.

But I wouldn't consider the rewatchable. But this is probably like, what, 15 minutes later. and we just see them making breakfast and it's like, all right, they're a team, here we go, just putting him, handing them the bread. It's just really good stuff. They're like so out of sync. The making French toast scene though is like really important

because it is. It's actually like a very generous portrait of how hard it is to be a mom. You know, like all of these things that Merrill Streep's character does every morning that come to her so naturally because she spent the last six, seven, eight years raising this kid. Dustin Hoffman doesn't even really,

he can't manage badly making French toast while talking to his son. He's making it in a glass. Yeah, he's making it. By the way, I screwed up the silent Pete. This was when they have the entermins and he's got the cereal and that, and they got the newspaper.

I don't know. I like how they did that. But that's why the French toast scene matters too because it's not only the bookend with the French toast scene at the end, it builds to like that Entemines moment, where as I think Sean what you said, it's a great point about,

especially because it's against, it's literally playing against moments like Ted's saying, did you know that all the best chefs are men, right? Like, you're having a good time. And that portrait of what it means to raise a child. The routine that Billy and Joanna had, the thing that came before is not what's going to work for them, ultimately.

And they're so unpracticed and so unsure with each other. and that false bravado mixed in with the tenderness of like wanting to provide and wanting to help but not knowing how. And then just like the horror show of like the milk and it's like an omelet around the toast and the spreading disease everywhere across the kitchen. Like they doesn't know even how to make his own coffee. Billy's like, that's too much coffee. It's these measuring stick moments inside of the movie that allow you to see how they have actually grown and move forward together. And I love that first French toast scene. It's a great one.

I feel like it's been ripped off in some sequed movies of the growth of the character and you do these little touch points. You come back to the initial thing you saw them struggling with. There's a lot you can rip off from this movie. The chocolate chip ice cream scene combined with the late night scene. I wouldn't say this was rewatchable, but it's definitely one of the best. This is the She Couldn't Stand Me, Billy. They ended up, but don't you eat that ice cream? Apparently they improvised some of this.

Yeah. Don't you dare go anywhere beyond that. Put it down right now. I am not going to say it again. I am not going to say it again. I can't. Ow! Don't you kick me. You're no far going to eat it.

You are a spoiled, rotten little brat. I'll tell you right now I'm a little shit. The little kid's great in this, but, you know, we're heading toward a blow up that finally happens. That part's great. Ted's seeing Joanna. I never stopped wanting him and loving him. What makes you so sure he wants you? What makes you so sure he doesn't want me?

Okay, look, we're going to sit here and back this back and forth like it was for eight years. It's like old times. Well, you can't deny me access to my own. Don't tell me what I can or cannot do. Don't talk to me that way. I have to get into this. Look, you're going to have to do what you're going to have to do. I'm very sorry about this.

Okay, let's just do what you have to do. I got to say, like, knowing that street didn't know the wine glass thing was coming, has given the scene. I watch it differently and almost like, like she really doesn't know what's coming. Like her reaction to it, which there's a couple other moments when she reacts like that

because she's jumpy. That's part of the character. But she just goes with it in that scene. But in general, like that scene is really great, really well acted. I wouldn't want to rewatch it a million times. It's amazing to watch him go from hopeful and almost happy to enraged

and despairing and violent. in the span of two minutes. I mean, it's really amazing. I mean, that's one of the through lines of the movie, right? It's like how unmooring it is to not be able to trust the circumstances around you at any moment. Like, you can never be comfortable in your own life because it could just shatter around you at any point. The, uh, Ted going for a job at a Christmas party. Scramer, you might have asked you why you're interested in a position for which you're clearly overqualified.

I need the job. Let me think about it. I'll let Jack know. you get in time. No. This is a one day only offer, gentlemen. You saw my book, you know I can handle the work. I'm willing to take a salary cut.

The only thing is you're going to have to let me know today, not tomorrow, not next week, not at the end of the holidays. If you really want me, you make a decision right now. That seems really good. It's really well-constructed. He's sitting there. I'm not going to leave. You can kind of see why he's good at business.

And then there's this weird 70s Christmas party going on after where, you know, like, 19 lines were crossed. leading to him finally getting the job. But that seems good. You can tell everybody now, Bill, that's how I got the job at Grantland. That was what I did. It was a big crazy Christmas party.

Yeah, it was December 22nd. And I was like, I'm not leaving until you give me this job. But it's a one-day offer. One-day offer. It expires at 4 o'clock. Joanna sees Billy again, you mentioned. The score, everything, it's short, but that seems excellent. The, and then, I mean, I would really go the run,

this whole run all the way through, but streep on the stand. Billy's only seven years old. He needs me. I'm not saying he doesn't need his father, but I really believe he needs me more. I was his mommy for five and a half years. And Ted took over that role for 18 months.

I don't know how anybody can possibly believe that I have less of a stake in mothering that little boy than Mr. Kramer does. it's got to be one of the best acted four or five minute sequences of her career and probably the last 45 years i just i can't imagine an actress doing better than she does in that scene yeah i've been racking my brain since you first asked that there's not a lot of people who were capable of that like it's funny because like jane fonda is an actress who was like really big at the time who you know is incoming home and they she's talked about for this role i don't know if she is quite the like

emotional powerhouse that Streep is or like Ellen Burstyn or there's a handful of people. It's like a powerhouse but also you feel like they might completely fall apart. Shatter. Yeah. Shatter. To balance both of those. And you know, one of the things was Streep and why I think she's the best actor of my lifetime, you don't feel like it's Merrill Streep. It's weird. She has this ability. I think she has a really distinct face, but she has this ability where you kind of forget it's Merrill Streep after a while. Like, Devil Wear's Prada is like that. You just don't think it's Merrill Street.

Silkwood. Like, sometimes our hair will change and that'll help. But in this movie, it just looks like Marl Streep. She doesn't look any different than she does in the Deer Hunter. But I feel like it's this character that I don't even feel like Merrill Street is a part of. I think it's so hard for actors. Denzel can do that sometimes. Where he kind of leaves Denzel.

Like, Flight is like that. Where he's kind of not Denzel anymore. he's like this drunk maniac that I forgot as Denzel. I don't know if I'm making sense. No, what you're saying is like they disappear into their characters, that despite the overwhelming charisma and power of their screen presence, they, I think the way that they do it is this sometimes works against Merrill Street, especially in the last 15 years. But she makes very simple, but aggressive choices about the way that her character talks

and not just like an accent, but the way that she phrases her sentences. the cadence that she uses to say things. You pointed out that there's something kind of fragile about Joanna. Jumpy. You know, that Karen Silkwood is the opposite. Karen Silkwood is fearlessly determined. And so she speaks with, there's no halting in her speech. She speaks directly and confidently.

And obviously we're just talking about acting here. But with Merrill Streep, like you can, she's pinpointing very specific ideas and choices that lay people can say, wow, that's amazing that she did that. You know, like not all actors are capable of that. A lot of actors kind of skate by on their good looks or they're kind of like it factor. And she's much more intentional with what she does. Denzel does that too.

But Denzel to me is like can sometimes be a little self-parody, you know? Like there's a reason why it's easier to imitate him and for people to kind of mock him in a way because he has like a persona. Merrill's persona is you don't know what you're going to get with me. I might change it up. Yeah, that's fair. I'm trying to think like who could have been Kramer versus Kramer, devil wears

Prada, Silkwood and the fucking Iron Lady. That's just hard. That's why she's the goat. A couple more scenes. And then we'll move on to what's age the best. The Hoffman on the stand. Yeah. Oh, you know, we should talk about

Streep on the stand quickly. the whole the whole monologue piece combined with the guy trying to goad her how it so she the first part when it's her lawyer she's got a confidence right because it's rehearsed this is it here's why I'm doing this and she goes through it but then it flips and this is why courtroom movies I fucking love

because it has that up now this guy's coming in he's not going to be he's not your teammate he's gonna try to get you and she knows it and she's under attack now. And the way she just shifts in that scene from those two personas, I think is really hard to do. I've seen other actors be able to do it. But then you get the Hoffman piece and it's basically the same kind of thing, right?

How he's playing a home game with his lawyer and then the other lawyer comes in. It's like, oh boy, here we go. Guys interrupting him. Didn't. Didn't. Didn't. And you're just like, you're just under attack. And just to watch those two actors go through that whole kind of cycle, I just, I love it.

Yeah. Go ahead, John. I just want to say the Hoffman cross-examination is the fatal flaw of the movie. Go. The cross-examination, the whole point, the effort to make him look bad is by largely talking about his inability to be successful in his career. but the reason he's not successful in his career is because he's taking care of his child. Right. Yeah.

Which in most family court settings would be considered a merit, not a demerit. The fact that he is putting the welfare of his child above all else. And even in the late 1970s when it was important for a man to be the breadwinner and, you know, making an income and everything, this is like a successful guy. He's a guy in his mid-30s who's been really successful in the world of advertising. It's not like he's had 15 jobs in 16 years. Like, he's had two jobs. And a judge would look at that. It's just like it really strains credulity in a movie that is trying very hard, at least for me, to be sincere about what happens when a family comes apart like this.

And every time I watch that scene, I'm just like, this is just such movie bullshit. Like, this just does not pass muster in a movie that otherwise is so, it's not pitch perfect, but it gets it so close to being right all the time. So I just bump on that every time I watch it. I had that as a big nipick as well. I had that coming up later. The combo of what you just said. And that Hoffman at no point when he's on the stand is like, look, she left. Right.

I had to take care of him for 15 months. If I didn't take care of him for two of the days, he's, Billy's dead. Like, sorry. Sorry my career suffered a little. Like, I wanted him to get mad. But the way the lawyer did it where he was just firing questions, like no further questions. Yeah, I'm with you. So I agree.

I think you're right. It's hard to argue. You're definitely right. I'll attempt to make a quick devil's advocate point, which is just that even though like rationally that is correct, I think it's effective emotionally because part of what that entire sequence, both of them on the stand, the couple trials scenes we get, is meant to convey and reinforce is that this stuff's not fair.

It's not fair. and you can say out loud, well, yeah, I miss those deadlines because another kid was biting my kid in class or because my son had a fever and he's, like, think back to all the moments in your life where you're having an argument with someone or you're trying to convince somebody of something

and you're saying things out loud that you're just like, how can it, how can it be possible that I'm not breaking through? But you don't. You don't break through. And this is in the highest stakes possible context for that, right? And when Joanna's on the stand, you're right, Bill, that like we don't get that exact language and exact attack from Ted because it's coming from the lawyer who, you know, quite a piece of work. But I kind of think that's important because there's something to the fact that Ted is like almost unbelievably generous in the back half of the movie, whether it's in the courtroom or.

when he's interacting with Billy, and you never as a viewer forget the moment where, this is in his scene with Margaret after Joanna leaves, but one of the most iconic moments in the movie when he says, you know, how much courage does it take to walk out on your kid? You never forget that that's where you came from, even if he doesn't say it out loud. And I actually think it's, like, important that he is stressing and emphasizing other things because the moments that we get from him in that trial sequence are about him and Billy. Like I think one of the most one of the most moving and beautiful moments

in the movie but also devastating especially on a rewatch because you know it's not enough. So when he says, Billy has a home with me. I made it the best I could. It's like that just sums up the entire thing.

It's like they're just, he's trying his best. It's not perfect. He says, I'm not a perfect parent and there's a part of you watching that it's like, don't say you're not a perfect parent.

Try to convince him that you are the perfect parent. Tell them why the other person isn't the perfect parent. but that's not actually like how he is navigating this aspect of his life because the only way really that he is found to cope is to try to be more honest with himself and Billy about the life that they've built together. So I think it's really lovely, even though it is very frustrating. Well, I'm grouping these next two scenes together. Ted tells Billy. Oh my God.

And then they make the French toast. And Billy's just giving him the bread. and then it gives them the hug and you hear Billy whimpering. That's got to be one of the saddest scenes of all time. Brutal. It's brutal. Oh, my God.

I was watching it last night and I was thinking, like, when that scene happens, Mallor had to get a broom to, like, clean her up. I mean, it's like a squeal that he makes. It's just, it's so sad. There's happy versions of this, too, though. Like, I don't want, I'm reluctant to get too dadcore here. But, like, when he puts him on the,

bike in the park and he's pedaling the bike. I was like melted. I was like, is this really happening? Like, can a movie be this emotionally affecting? Like, it's really powerful when they see them. So it's not just the stuff that is hard and painful. It's like the stuff that is real where they're bonding and he's teaching him how to be alive, how to be a person.

Shows him his office. Wow. Yeah, exactly. What building is that? That's so good. And then the ending. So really it's the last 25 minutes of this movie are just out of control. But the ending and when she's going back up, first of all, the hug

when she's like, I'm not going to take him and you see Hoffman's eyes squint. Like, that's a great scene. But then Joanna asking how she looks and he's like terrific and that look she has on her face. It's just an incredible way to... I would dare say one of the best actual ending we're going to credits moments

that I can remember in a movie. Just that look on her face. It's like the first time he's giving her a genuine compliment probably. You know? Like it's like, I look good, but also like, wow, you've made me feel good person who hasn't made me feel good for five years. It's just, it's such an interesting moment. What, so what? What do you think about that decision then to make her change her mind or see the light or whatever it is? Like, because that's, it's been much analyzed since the day that this movie came out. I'm pro. You think it was a good choice to have her to do that? I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I do. I think because she's kind of a mess.

And she realizes, like, this is actually the best decision she can make, even though she's putting her life back together. But he has a home. And, like, she spells it out. I painted the clouds. You're great with him. Like, she wants to be at, she, for the first time, she realizes, like, I can be additive. But he actually has built something here.

And it wouldn't be right to pull him out of this after I've already tried to demolish his life once. So I thought it was authentic. Mal, what's your take? I think it's very, very complex because, Bill, I agree with you about the last shot, that last second, because there's something there about, like, you know, our capacity to still surprise each other after all that time. That's, like, really interesting. In terms of Joanna's decision, on the one hand, it gives us the outcome and the resolution that we are rooting for, that we are rooting for fiercely, which is Billy and Ted being together, staying together, getting to keep making that home. Right. I do think that it undercuts a lot of the work that the movie does. This is one of my like few critiques of the film to have us build some understanding with Joanna and some empathy for toward her.

Because putting Ted and Billy through that and then changing her mind again is. I think like unforgivable. Or it's. the first really good mother thing that she did in the two years span where she realized like it's actually worse for me to now pull him out of this. I've already made the massive mistake. I toned for it. I fixed it. I'm trying to make it right. But now if I compound it with this other mistake. I think there's a generous read though where it's like she is in touch with what he needs and that would be charitable and I think like a kind way to look at it. But I just think again,

it kind of like it undercuts a little bit because it makes her seem like she's just totally still subject to the whim of the moment. I woke up this morning and I felt this way. You know? Yeah. Like one of my, I'll spoil, one of my unanswerable questions is how long until Joanna changed her mind again? Was it when she got upstairs?

You know? And that's part of what I think is impossible for me to shake. So cynical, Mallory. Geez. Jeez. But why wouldn't you think that way? Why wouldn't you ask that question? Yeah.

I mean, I think the ending almost demands you to think about that in a difficult way. I still don't really know. I feel differently every time I finished watching the movie. It obviously does make you feel good for Hoffman's character. And you're mostly with him throughout this movie. And you want him and Billy to be together. But it feels a little inauthentic, I think, to what I would expect in a situation like this. I think there's the other thing it does is like it is the final concluding moment that makes you ask yourself like,

does this movie make sense? Because in a circumstance like this, these two people would just have joint custody. They both live in New York City. They would just have one week with mom and one week with dad. And one week with dad.

Which I think is what the verdict was, right? No, it wasn't. The verdict was every other weekend visitation. And then it was once a week during the week. Once a week during the week. But I think that would be like a more even-handed version of joint custody. Maybe it was too soon for that to be the case,

although, like, a lot of legal scholars who worked in family court have looked at this movie and been like, this movie's kind of bullshit. Like, no judge would render this verdict. Hot take, maybe watch your fucking kid on the jungle gym. You get to keep him. Instead he's got almost impaled his left eye. It's a fair point.

Flirting with the neighbor. Were you interning for Joanna's lawyer at the time of this story? I mean, the kid's on top of a jungle gym holding an airplane and pretending to Zoom. I'm pretty sure I would have been over there. making sure he wasn't going to fall off. That's the other thing is this is also picking nits, but that's on Jane Alexander, man.

He let her off the hook. That's on her. She fucked him on that one. Stop telling your story. Turn around and take care of my son. I had that unanswered real questions. Jade Alexander, good friend? She botches being on the stand.

She almost has the kid and pale himself with the airplane. She was clearly team Joanna for most of the movie and then kind of gravitates to Ted just because she's lonely. You think she was a plant? You think she was like original? Like Joanna was like, what I need you to do is have him fall off the jungle gym at some point. So when I come back, I can reclaim him.

If she didn't have the, they're so good together speech, I'd be out. I would hate her guts. All right, most rewatchable scene, we all agree. It's that holds the courtroom stretch, the two courtroom scenes.

I think half to be. Would you say something different, Mel? I think that's the pick, but I will just note for posterity and for the record that I think that among the scenes I think about most often Ted reading Billy Joanna's letter. Yeah.

And the way that his voice breaks as he begins to realize what he is sharing with his son, the way Billy turns up the volume on the remote. I mean, that scene kills me. And then the run to the hospital. I mean, and the ice cream scene and the screaming match after, which is just so agonizing to watch, but then the beautiful, the beautiful little shared healing session after.

This is a hard one. I think there are a lot of pantheon scenes in this movie, but it probably has to be the trial. Ted, read the letter first before you read it to the kid. Maybe don't wing that, wing the first draft. Yeah. That's a crushing scene, though. It's not like us doing reads for the podcast breaks,

which we're about to go on one, where I'm like, all right, I'll read this and say it at the same time. This is a letter from your wife that just abandoned your son. Maybe give it a test drive, but we're going to take a break on that note. Come back. Sean, what'd you have for most rewatchable scene?

I got to say, I was really kind of blown away by the bicycle thing. I know I got an emo brain right now, but I just had a kid. I was like, new kid energy. I was like, this is so cool. This is going to be great. I can't believe I'm going to get to do this.

What's age the best? Mentioned young Meryl Street. Just fantastic looking, by the way. Beautiful. But three 1979 movies, she's just crushing it. Leaving the 70s on a high. The title? Great title. Agree.

Yeah. Great moment when they say the title. You know how much I love that? Great poster. The poster of them is the happy family picture. Like just they ace all that shit. That's just high level producing. The music, the score at the top that we see the guys playing the guitar.

There's something about Mary style, just for some reason. All of something there. Here's another what's age the best. On what happens live, the Bravo show, Andy Cohen asked Street, Redford, Deeran Hoffman, shag, marry, or kill. Okay.

Yeah. You know, fuck Mary or kill, but I'm probably that to say she's a check. She said she'd marry Redford, shagdnero and kill Hoffman. That's not how you would find on YouTube. That's not what you would say, though, Bill. What would be you?

Bill would kill Redford. Redford's dead. Probably Hoffman's dead too I think I would just Go De Niro for the other two Okay The nude scene with Joe Beth Williams First of all Joe Beth Williams

Soon to be seen in the Big Chill Really funny nude scene though One of the funnier ones I don't know how they rigged it with a little kid I feel like on Twitter That would be a whole thing now I don't think they rigged it I think that's what I mean

Yeah I think he saw it all little kids just standing in front of a naked lady. Yeah, that's not happening in 2012. Incredible experience for Justin Henry. Yeah. Great job by by everyone. Justin Henry, youngest person ever nominated. Yep.

Record still stands today. Eight years old. Unbelievable. There's a case we made. It's the best performance in the movie because it's the highest degree of difficulty because he was freaking seven years old when they made this movie. He's incredible. He's genuinely incredible. My wife was

watching with me last night before she fell asleep and was just talking about how adorable he was. Oh my God. What a little munchkin. They just really nailed it. He even as the little kid that Adam Rich ate is enough haircut where the hair comes all the way down like a bowl cut, but it's not really a bowl cut. It's very 70s. Great stuff. Any other when he's doing the Halloween play, that's so cute. Jesus. Precious. Oh, yeah. Any other what's age the best that we haven't mentioned yet? obviously the divorce genre, which we've talked about already, but, you know, great stuff. Fertile. Fertile movie.

Territorial. Rich text to mine. Shocked, this wasn't on your list, but Billy picking the Celtics over the Knicks. Loved it. Should have been. Should have been what's age of bed. By the way, great taste. He walked into three titles in the 80s.

Yes. We'd have walked through a lot of sadness. Yeah, he made the right call there. And then, you know, similarly, my guy, Billy, he's just reading the comics at the breakfast table. Early, early Marvel fandom, you know, he's ready for the Disney Plus era. Probably running Disney Plus right now. Billy Kramer. Head of original programming for the Marvel stuff.

Any for you, What's Age the Best, Sean? No, I have an important What's Age the Worst, though. Okay. Let's go to What's Age the Worst. We mentioned all the Hoffman Streep stuff. This is, look, whatever, it's 1979. You can only go so far in judging the past. There are zero minorities in this movie.

It might be the whitest movie, I think, that anyone's ever made, and it also made the most money and won all these Oscars. But, like, we don't even get, I mean, how many movies do they go, wow, we need some might, well, we'll make the judge a black guy.

We don't even have a black judge in this movie. It's just zero. It's white across the board. which I'm sure they didn't even notice as they were making it, because why would they? It was 1979. It struck me watching it. It wouldn't surprise me if not, it did not occur to a single person that worked on the movie.

Probably not. What do you have for, what's your big one, Sean? Just that we're doomed to live in a society in which a movie like this will never be the most successful movie ever again. That's really my anxiety is all defined by the fact that, like, it is so crazy how at the middle of culture this movie is. was and how it was hugely influential that people like yourself, if you were a kid, you'd watch this movie and be like, how does this relate to my experience? But then also at the highest echelon of filmmaking, they would say, this is the greatest achievement. And then also, every adult in America was like, let's go see Kramer versus Kramer over Christmas weekend to have fun. You know,

like it's just, this. Yeah, rollicking good time. But it's like this sophisticated, thoughtful, excellently rendered movie. It just, that feels a million miles away. So what year did that become impossible for that not to happen anymore? I'm going to say like 1984. Probably. That's where pop culture is starting to really round

into shape in 1984. I mean, you know, a lot of stuff that you really love, Bill, and that like has been a part of this show kind of steps into that plate. You know, the Beverly Hills cops of the world kind of like start to take the diehards and the back to the futures

and all kinds of movies, Raiders of the Lost Dark, all movies we've done on this. the show. But, and I love those movies too, but there's, I, this, this will probably literally never happen again in, in, in, in, in, in this entire art form that a movie that is this simple and this sincere and this small is the biggest thing to happen in movies. That's just crazy. I agree. What was yours, Mal? Um, I have a few I'll run through them very quickly. One, the appalling bathroom and kids.

kitchen hygiene. The hygiene in this movie is a disgrace and it makes me cringe and shudder every time I watch it. Ted and Billy waking up, taking a piss, can't be bothered to flush the toilet, certainly can't be bothered to wash their hands. And then it's, let me rub my eyes. Let me grab this bread and slash it into the eggs and make you some breakfast. That's what it's like when you're on your own, father and son. Awful. No North Star. dismaying. Dismaying. Okay. A few others.

The bell bottoms. You know, we talked about the fashion as a real high note in ordinary people. The bell bottoms. Tough what's aged the worst here. Milk at every meal. You know, that's really a relic of another age. That's just not a thing anymore. It really stood out watching it.

Good calling. We already talked about this, but John Shannessie's legal approach. You know, I've got some notes for our guy, John Shonnessy, who is quite cruel. to the point where Ted has to say, to the person he's trying to beat, you know, about the person who's trying to beat. You have to be so, so harsh. How about Ted's boss? Jim O'Connor.

Jim's response to Ted's plight as a single parent in the workplace. What's age the worst? This is very tough. But so authentic to 1979. Yeah, but when you watch it today, you're like, I miss my guy I got drunk with. Yeah. Jim, no. It's actually like, it's, it's amazing because it's so consistent across the movie.

like his first response is, sorry that you're going through this, may I humbly suggest that you send your child to live with relatives so that I can count on you to be on time for meetings? We have a big account. And then he goes in the middle of the movie to, you're not getting any better.

You're getting a hell of a lot worse. And he literally says to him, I can't let your family problems interfere with my responsibilities. And then, of course, fires him. That's another great scene, the shame on you moment when Ted is fired. And, you know, the one day hiring,

process that we were talking about before. It's, uh, you're not a lot of vetting in 1979. How'd you get this job, Ted? I told him I wanted it. Told him I wanted it. You would met for two minutes. And then I kissed a stranger at the party. Very tough. You wouldn't have pushed that through on the ringer.com? Someone came to email and was like, I want to be your new football writer. One day offer. I'm willing to take 5K less in my last gig. In 2022, everything's realistic until he kisses the random stranger at the Christmas party. Then you immediately loses the job. It's over.

It's like, and then at 10, he lasted two minutes. He's out. Yeah, you're hired. You're fired. He's just an executive assistant. Wow,

casting what ifs. Holy mackerel. Some dozies. So Hoffman doesn't want to do it. They, like, fuck it. They go to James Kahn. Our guy, Jimmy,

who was probably at the mansion on a bender, probably didn't read the whole script. Joanna, let's cut the bullshit in the mini moves and get on with this big romance. Well, he was concerned the film was going to be a flop. It was literally the number one movie of 1979.

Tough one for James Con. Oh, Jimmy. Love Jimmy. Al Pacino offered the role, turned it down, said he didn't feel it was right for him. I actually would have loved to have seen Al Pacino in this role. He could have done it. I had coffee with you win a half an hour ago. You definitely would have gotten your yelling on the stand.

He was too busy yelling in his role. justice for all that year. He's doing a whole other, you know. A lot of yelling. It's all car rooms out all in her. John Voight turns it down because he's already in the champ with another divorced mom situation. Yeah, and a little kid. And even more crying.

I still stay at the, the last 10 minutes of the champ are still probably the saddest of any movie. Wow. Chip! Chip! Wake up, Chip! So then Hoffman met with Jaffe and Ben. in a London hotel and changed this mind.

Kay Jackson offered the role of Joanna, she claims, forced to turn it down because of Charlie's Angels, she claims, there's a little, it seems like this might be 80% true, 90% true.

I don't know. I don't know if Kay Jackson, my guess is, it would have been Meryl Streep the whole time, but they apparently offered it to Fay Dunaway, who did the champ instead. Jane Fonda,

mentioned earlier. Ali McGraw would have butchered this. Not a great actress. No. And eventually settled on Streep, who was supposed to play

the Joe Beth Williams role, and then they tried it again, circled back. Wasn't the Kay Jackson story that Aaron's spelling wouldn't let her do it? That's what she claims. Okay.

Who knows? Huh. That would have been a very, that would have been strange. Listen, nobody loves Charlie's Angels more than me. Literally nobody.

Not one. person. I have a lot of respect for the talents of Kate Jackson. This would have been a step up. Safe to assume this is the last time Merrill Streep and Kate Jackson were up for the same part. She's for the same role. Oh, and Gail Strickland was supposed to be Ted's neighbor, Margaret, but got fired after

week before. She was for two days until Dustin Hoffman taunted her on set. Justin Hoffman cleaned her out, sent her past. her pack and Jane Alexander came in, his friend from All the President's Men. She's tremendous, by the way. We did talk about her on All the Presidents' Men, but she's an amazing actor. It's just phenomenal. I think she's the best actress who isn't considered to be in the class of the best actresses, mostly because for whatever reason, she just never had that one iconic part. She's nominated for multiple Oscars, though.

Yeah, but I think she's... Yeah, you're right. People don't associate her. Yeah, it's almost like a female Philip Seymour Hoffman type thing. Not that she was the same kind of character actor, but just kind of was always the friend or the wife or like the 15 minutes where she stole the movie. But people didn't really build movies around her. I mean, she was a theater actress.

She'd won a Tony, but she was nominated four times in 10 years in the 70s. I mean, she's a big time in 1970s. And she does just, you're right, Bill. She doesn't have that public reputation for whatever reason. And then in the mid-2000s comes back and HBO's, tell me you love me. That's right. pretty old gets down

multiple sex scenes what a show she was like late 50s what a show oh my god should we do that for the prestige TV tell me you love me rewatch you and Mal can do

the retell me yeah the retell me so we knew Adam Scott because he was dating for Jimmy Kimmel's show he was dating the assistant who ended up marrying And we always knew him as a struggling actor. And then he got the aviator.

And then it's like, what's Adam's next thing? And then all of a sudden, who's that, tell me you love me, where it's just like prosthetic balls and crazy sex scenes. And we're like, whoa. Yeah. That was also where I first encountered Sonia Walger, who would soon be on Lost. Right. Right stuff from her and Adam Scott.

It's some very disturbing scenes between the two of them. That show needs to come back. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pantser word. As Craig always says, when we go this late for a movie, it gets really tough. but the answer has to be George Coe, who plays Dustin Hoffman's boss, who weirdly was in season one at SNL when they needed older actors. They used to grab George Coe, and he would be in scenes on SNL in the first season in sketches. Old actor things.

He's a that guy, though. He'll always be the judge and Mighty Ducks to me. That's what I think is when I see him. Bounce around. He's been a million things. We're sure it's not Howard Duff, John Shaughnessy? I think he's Howard Duff. Okay. I mean, he was a big actor in the 50s, but like he's got one of the all-time great voices.

I mean, his voice is amazing. Wasn't he on Dallas? I feel like he had a run on Dallas or one of those shows. That's landing. I don't know. I didn't watch those shows. Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for overacting. I just, this movie is impeccably acted. I wouldn't really give it to it. Not going to throw out any nominees? No, not eligible? You can. You can. Go ahead. I think this was hard, but I think it would be Howard Duff.

If we had to throw on someone, no? Sean to see, I mean, that's kind of like his vibe intentionally. Well, I can see why you left him. Right. He has to deliver these kind of like inane moments of intentional drama because he's trying to work the courtroom. So it's almost deliberate. All right, we'll give it to Howie.

Deanne Waiter's a word. Heart to top Joe Beth Williams with the big glasses, getting the nude scene. She's in and out of the movie in four minutes. I would just like to pay special tribute to the job recruiter, though. Oh, yeah, that guy. Three minutes. Comes in hot, gets a little, Hoffman comes at him, gets upset at that as he's making the call. Why aren't we a hot chap?

Yeah, I like that guy. Good call. Recasting couch. Funny you mentioned Howard Duff. I do think this is the one spot. I think the lawyers, they could have gone bigger. you know, James Mason in the verdict, maybe he could have done double duty as,

as Merrill Streep's defense attorney. But I think, I think the Howard Duff, I think that could have been a bigger actor. I always thought of Howard Duff as kind of discount Bert Lancaster. So what if you just put Bert Lancaster in there, you know? Big barrel-chested, deep-voiced guy, you know, who'd be great in a courtroom. That could be the way to go.

Or like a George C. Scott. I don't know who's from that era. But yeah, I think they could have gone more firepower for that one. Half-ass internet research. So the person wrote the source novel was Avery Corman, Jaffe and Benton bought it. The nude scene for Joe Beth Williams was optically darkened to avoid an R rating. I guess they had the technology back then to do that. Yep.

And you've been brightening it ever since, right, Bill? You've been running it through the system. The brightness thing is great. Henry was seven when they started filming the movie, Justin Henry. and did a lot of improvising with Hoffman. I think he was the only person Hoffman. It was nice to. Sean, as in 2020, Kramer v. Kramer,

the only best picture Oscar winner of the 70s that has not been selected by the Library of Congress for preservation. That's interesting. I wonder why. Weird. I'm not sure I understand that. Because I think this is a movie that still resonates for people.

The scene with Hoffman and Streep when he breaks the glass was filmed at J.G. Melons East 74th Street in 3rd Avenue of Manhattan. Not sure if you've ever been there. They have a framed photo of the film. And then this one was a doozy for me. Merrill Street, pregnant. Yeah.

Pregnant when she filmed this movie, which is why she's got a raincoat going on to cover up. But she was like legit pregnant. Yeah, she met Gummer, the sculptor. I think when she was like moving into a new apartment or something, you know, it was like right after John Cazel died. She met him shortly thereafter. Apex Mountain, Hoffman.

I'm going to say yes. It's either this or Tootsie. And I think it's this. I think he grabs the championship belt pretty quickly and swiftly for about a year from Pacino and De Niro. And then De Niro grabs it back with Raging Bull. But I think he takes the upper hand in whatever that battle is for a year here. It's the number one movie in America and it crushes at the Oscars. Like, it can't get better for Dustin Hoffman.

No? I don't know. Did we have this conversation on the Rain Man episode? We did. I think we said it was this. We did. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. It's a very good case for it. Yeah, it's a good case for it. Streep. No. No. Not ready to have her. I don't, I think she actually might be ineligible for Apex Mountain.

She's been sitting on the mountain for 40 years. Yeah, I just feel like she. He just had a condo there in 1976 and just goes up there and everyone's the well. Justin Henry, definitely. Yes. Yeah. Entermans? The baker, the big goods?

Oh, my God. I love those donuts. Delicious. I mean, in my... I used to love the raspberry one. Oh, that's good. Remember that one? Absolutely.

I like a multi-pack. The multi-pack's a great one. You get the crumb donut, the powdered sugar, the cinnamon. Wonderful. feel like the classic crumb cake is just unbelievable. It's like some of the greatest food of all. There's so much goddamn powder on that thing. You know, you look like you. So good. You look like you know, Bobby Knavali and the set of vinyl once you finish a piece of that cake. I'm going to say yes for Apex Mountain because this was the height of nobody understanding

breakfast and what to eat and you just would like grab enterments at the grocery store to either cut the crumb cake or have the powdered donuts and to see it prominently featured in the movie. I was like, this has to be the peak. They had the delicious, the chocolate frosted Entemans donuts, which are wonderful. I still get those sometimes. Those are great. That's great. Is Ennambon's still thriving?

Are they still like the leader in the clubhouse on baked goods sold at grocery stores? They've got to be, right? I mean, you can find Entomins and Amity. I would say yes. I would say they've moved more toward the 7-Eleven area. Divorce movies, I think, yes. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, crowded field, but this is certainly Mount Rushmore, and I think.

number one, right? What are your top three or four divorce movies? It's, you have to do this one, and then you figure out the rest. I still think Squid and the Whale is in there for me. Me too. I think mine's this marriage story of Squidin the Whale. I was just trying to decide if I would say

I like Squid in the Whale more. I think I like Squid in the Whale more, if I'm being honest. Because Squid in the Whale is hilarious, too. This movie's not that funny. It's not. A reconcilable differences is on there for me, but I think I'm the only one who saw it. What about Bye Bye, Love? Jane Alexander, the answer is no, but I don't know what it is. She just-

She just- She just- She just-9, but I think all the president's men is probably her apex. Okay. French toast? I mean, has French toast ever been more prominently featured in a movie? And this was the height of French toast. Starring role in multiple key scenes. I have it coming on picking Nits.

I'll just say it now. There's no cinnamon. I can't shake it. Where's the cinnamon? And then where's the vanilla? Where are the flavors? We've got the eggs. We've got the milk.

We've got the bread. We've got the butter. We've got the pan. At some point we get the pot holder. No cinnamon. Jungle gym accidents definitely apex mountain. Any other apex mountains? I mean, Benton?

You know, like I. Best director, best adaptive screen. play. Yeah. Two Oscars, number one movie of the year. Pretty good.

Pickin'its. We mentioned a bunch of these, but Ted not knowing what grade his son is in is just ridiculous. Awful. I know they put it in

to say how self-absorbed is, but that's ludicrous. The most self-absorbed person on the fucking planet knows what grade their kids in. I can't believe they did that. What grade are you in first?

Like, that's the dumbest moment of this movie. Hard to buy. I can't believe that and cut that out. The Jungle Jeems scene we mentioned just like once you're up there with like an actual object, any parent who's not on drugs is just like, oh, you got to get down.

Like you're going to get hurt. Here's another one. Ted gets fired right before Christmas. It's like December 20th. They're just like, you're out of here, Ted. They're not going to do that in mid-January, his friend. Jim O'Connor. Mercenary.

Jim O'Connor. Fucking asshole. Yeah. we did a lot of other nitpicks. Anything else for you, Sean? No. I just thinking back on that firing scene, it's just a couple of things

are just a little hard to buy in the movie. They're like, they're really trying to create narrative tension so that you get even more on Dustin Hoffman's side. And every time I'm like, could this have happened this way? I mean,

I know the world is cruel, but this way, this seems like a lot. He doesn't want to lose the account. Big account. Got to put Norman on it. No time to waste. Let's keep that in mind.

When I fire you, Mallory, I'll keep that in mind, you know? Yeah. Who's my Norman? Matt, we can't lose Fandul. You got to go. We can't lose Fandul. I like in movies where the spot, the company is always some amorphous company like

Mid-Atlantic's ready to walk. It's like, what is Mid-Atlantic? Is that like a college basketball conference? What is that? What does Mid-Atlantic make? I'll throw out a few other quick ones. The cafe that Joanna is creeping from in the. window has no notes for her.

Ma'am, stop pressing your face and hands against our front window. You're scaring the customers. She's there in multiple moments. I think they would probably ask her to leave. Also,

when Joanna first calls, Ted, I know it's been a minute, but Ted does not recognize his former wife's voice on the telephone. Insane. insane though I you know yes who is this Joanna when you look at what he's eating at the spread there he's got the

cheese sandwich and like the tub of either yogurt or baby cottage cheese and then a wine goblet full of soda so he's in a he's in a tough spot I'll allow it and then I think the biggest picking knit that I can't shake even though I understand is required because so much of the movie is set in their apartment are there walls in the Kramer home made of like reinforced lead or something how How does Billy sleep through every single shouting match in that apartment? I don't understand. He's always peacefully dozing when Ted and Joanna are screaming or Ted and Margaret are

screaming or Ted is on the phone and Billy's just snoozing away, slumbering under the clouds. See, this is why your mom is right and you need to have a child. Little kids can sleep through anything until they're about eight. So to me that was completely realistic. Like you can't, you could drive a locomotive through a little kids bedroom once they fall asleep. They're not waking up. Little kids, but not babies, Mallory. So keep this in mind because that's not actually how it works for babies.

Babies? Totally different. Babies will wake up if, like, they hear some footstep from 190 yards away. But when they hit like three, coma. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? So my initial answer was no. And then I thought about it. I'm like, I'm actually, not only is my answer yes, but I think that would be a really intriguing show.

I mean, we just watched scenes from a marriage, all three of us. And there is an aspect of this story that is in scenes from a marriage. You know, like Chastain's character walks out on their daughter. Who doesn't love a family drama over six to eight to maybe ten episodes? I mean, it's wonderful. But what if it was called Kramer versus Kramer? That would be great. They'd do some twist.

Like, they'd make. both of them women or they would do something to modernize it. So it wouldn't just be like the way it is now. You get a whole episode of Ted working on the Mid-Atlantic campaign. So we better understand Mid-Atlantic's place in society. You get a whole episode out in California. We get the Mid-Atlantic headquarters. More importantly, you get Joanna's California Awakening episode.

We're driving up the PCH, two big sir with Joanna. Her first orgasm. We're reading Kerouac with Joanna. Her first orgasm with the bartender at Barney's Beatery. I never realized sex could be like this. Yeah, I'm in on the Netflix show. Unanswerable questions. This is a great one.

It's a very subtle moment. I freeze framed it. The lawyer says, Ted, make a pro-con list. Yeah, great one. Why you want to keep this kid. Yep. Ted makes the list. The pen is covering the top thing on the list. It's one through five. The others are no privacy, work affected, no social life, and then underline, no let up. Yeah. You can see number one in another shot. Oh, you can. What was number one? Money. Oh, I'd miss that. See, this is why Mao's, this is why Mao's mouth. She's the queen of the telestrator when it comes to the rewashed. I love a freeze. frame. The list was fascinating because there's

nothing in the pro column and it doesn't matter because then he just goes and rocks Billy and Billy's the pro. Yeah, the pro is him, of course. You don't hug your kid. Wait until you hug your kid. You're going to freaking die. It's amazing. I hug him out every night. I would have put, I would have had something in the pro

list. Like my guy, Billy, the B man. Just be, just something to even alleged. one with the con list in the director's cut of the extended feature. Six, doesn't like gravy and onions on Salisbury steak. Seven eats ice cream when I tell him not to. You know, it's just

con after con for Ted. Walks in on my naked ladies that sleep over. I mean, in Billy's defense, he was just going to the bathroom. Phyllis is the one who walked into the hallway naked. What's Phyllis's deal there? I mean, Phyllis, put a knit on her shirt. Just put a shirt on. Come on. More than one of my unanswerable questions are about Phyllis in that sequence. What else do you have now? Do we think Phyllis and Ted actually had dinner? Or did we just go right to the sex?

Because there's the whole like, oh, yes, yes, I will have dinner with you sequence. And then we cut right to, you know, they're draped over each other in bed. But if you look at the nightstand next to the bed, ashtray full of cigarettes, there's a wine glass with like champagne. flat champagne or white wine, like, they've been having a party. And so I'm like, what, what did they even bother with dinner? Did they just go right to the apartment and get right to it? I think they did some rails. 1979. Probably a couple of bumps. Probably. But my main unanswerable question that pertains to Phyllis is Billy Centric. You know, we get that. Do you like fried chicken? Fried chicken very much? So do I exchange. I'm, I'm wondering about Billy and his future with,

with his romantic partners. And whether we think like all future dates, after this encounter with Phyllis had to involve fried chicken in some way. Like, was fried chicken just an immovable central object around which Billy's entire understanding of sex and romance orbited after this encounter? Like he's going to KFCs to pick up women? Oh, God. That was good, Val. What do you think Norman's future was with Jim O'Connor after Norman got put on the

Mid-Atlantic account? I think he thrived. I think Norman was ready. Blue skies. Fucking it up. Blue skies for Norman. But what was it that Norman and Hoffman were doing? Because we see him like drawing a lot of stuff and having fruit punch poured all over his drawings.

It's like, was he the Don Draper of this situation? Was he the stand for Mad Men? You know, was he just drawing up the stuff? Like, it's a little unclear. He says, so when he is. recounting to Margaret what happens and giving the famous, you know, I come through the store to share with my wife, what promises to be one of the five best days of my life speech. He says that the vice president told him he would be the next creative director of the apartment. So he says creative director there. But then elsewhere in the movie, we hear him say,

vice president and nothing. So maybe he went from creative director to vice president. Maybe he says this. creative director. But he's working, he's working on the campaign because when he's sifting through his portfolio, he says like, that copy was all mine, that idea was mine, that copy was mostly mine. I came up with that campaign. So yeah, I think he's supposed to be like a Don type figure. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I was thinking a framed thing of the to-do list would be pretty cool. That's nice. That's a good one. I do know right away. For the real fans. Yeah. I want the eye that Billy lost when he fell off the jungle gym. When they call them one eye from that point out?

Oh, my God. I'll take from the same setting as the pro con list, I'll take one of the surrounding items that really helps like make that scene work. Either some of, because he's sitting writing out all the cons and in front of him there's a toy of Billy's. It's a little chopper and it says on the front, rescue. Yeah. It's just so apt. And he's sitting in front, though. of this little museum, right? This wall of Billy's creativity and achievement, all of Billy's drawings.

That's such a great shot. I love that. It shows this incredible progress with him. That's such a subtle thing. It's like his whole life is on this wall. You know, like this is what he really cares about now. I love that. Me too.

So that's what I would want. I would want either the little rescue chopper or one of Billy's drawings. All right. Who in the movie? Tough one, given some of what we talked about. earlier.

It's pretty hard not to say Hoffman. It's pretty hard not to say Hoffman. Because you walk out of the movie feeling like this guy got his son, this actor I've been rooting for the whole time. You had no idea he slapped a woman on the set of the film. It's funny. Hoffman is obviously the answer. It's an incredible performance.

But I think as the years passed, forget about the problematic stuff, because I honestly don't even think many people even know those stories. No, most people don't. Right. Like a lot of people probably found out about. about that stuff. There's a really good, Mal mentioned that Vanity Fair,

Merrill Streep thing, which is just a good piece in general about Merrill Streep in the 70s dealing with John Cazale. I would encourage people to read that if they like movies. But I think as the years pass, for me,

Streep wins the movie because that character has to work, and if it doesn't work, the movie falls apart, and this becomes the pursuit of happiness and some of these other movies where it's like the dad and the sun and it's heartwarming

or whatever you want to be, but it's not, if that's in the wrong hands, the movie falls apart. I think you can take the same case for Billy. Imagine if this is a bad performance from a child actor. Imagine this movie. That's a good big picture episode that John could never do. Worst child actor performances that ruin good movies because it's kind of mean.

There's some really bad child actor performances. Bill, if you want a guest host that episode, by all means. that sounds like a great topic. I got to say, I don't love the kids in Halloween that much. I wanted more from them. Yeah, that's fair. Tommy and Lindsay, I feel like they could have stepped it up a notch with the fucking boogeyman in the neighborhood.

I feel like the burden is a little bit less on them than they are on Justin Henry. Yeah, Crayman versus Cramer. Yeah, he's really got. But your case is really strong, right? Because she'd basically only been in Julia before this. And, you know, then all the sudden Manhattan, Joe Tynan and Deer Hunter and this all come in a 12-month window. and she basically uses this

and springboards into becoming the most celebrated screen actress that has ever lived. She's in, I think, five scenes. Not counting, like, her creeping in the cafeteria. And in all five scenes,

she's like incredible. So I don't know. I think you could make the case, like if this is Kate Jackson, we're not doing the rewatchables right now. Just really quickly, what is her best performance ever? And is this in the conversation?

Oh, my gosh. To me, it's, I think it's this and weirdly, I think Devil Wears Prada, she's absolutely unbelievable in that movie. Sensation. I think it's actually harder to be great in a movie like that. That's just like a pop culture movie where you're playing a part that anybody could play and you turn it into this absolutely iconic movie just because of how good you are in the part where that could have just been anybody, right?

That could have been like Candace Bergen. It's not the same movie. Like, he'd pick anyone in her, Jane Fonda, anyone in her range range. but I think I think those are my two favorite parts for her but Sean I want to be invited when you do the Merrill Street podcast You've never done it

You've never done a Merrill episode I need to be on that one You're invited You're invited I don't know when that's going to be But I wrote an ESPN magazine piece Once about her Where I made the case

That she was the greatest actor of all time And I tried to do it the way we'd do it in sports And I gave this point system for the Oscars and nominations for actress or supporting and then wins. And I came up with this point system that was actually like pretty accurate. This was a while ago. This is probably like 05-06 range. And her point total was just way higher than anyone else.

And I didn't even rig it. But it was just like way, way higher. She had like, I don't know, 52 points. The next person had like 34, you know, is one of those. But yeah, and now she's added stuff since. then. She's had more, many more Oscar nominations since that happened. Yeah, I mean, that's what I was going to say is she's

still incredibly prolific. I mean, she still makes maybe one to two movies a year. And that's so you're talking 15 years later, that's another 18, 20 movies that she's made. So she's got a wild career. I think she, it's a little hard to match that run from like 77

through 86 that she had. That's a very, that's a like a Cy Young pitching records, kind of an unbreakable streak that she had where she just consistently was like at the center of movie culture everyone agreed she was the one she basically did what Pacino was doing in the early to mid 70s or was just like there's really nobody else here um and then you know she did she made a lot of stinkers too over the years she took some chances and made some mediocre movies yeah she did it's funny because when

she's not great in a movie it's kind of shocking which she's one of the few actors you could ever say that about like i didn't think she was good in the post i liked it i didn't i didn't really like her Tom Hanks in that movie. I just thought both of them were kind of off. And it was just surprising. I was like, wow, Merrill. A rare a rare fly ball to the warning track. But we just saw her in big little

lies and I was like, damn, this is like the sequel to Kramer versus Kramer. Like this woman is just so like, why are you doing this? You know, like she elicits that from you so well. Well, we did it. None of us cried. Yeah, I teared up a few times. Did you tear up? I didn't. I held it in.

Should we call your mom until you're having the baby now? Please don't. She's coming in right now. This podcast was produced by Craig Horlebeck, who's getting married and still believes in the concept of love. Yeah. This whole beautiful relationship in front of him. Probably watched us unable to understand why a couple couldn't get along because his relationship is so magical. Craig, don't make Horlebeck versus Horlebeck.

Yeah. That's not a good title, isn't it? That's a bad title. Anyway, you can hear Mallory on the ringer verse, a wonderful podcast feed. You can hear Sean on the big picture. And next week, you can hear on this podcast we are doing the Ice Storm. Me, Sean, and Chris. Mallory might crash.

We'll send her a Zoom link. If she wants to just show up a cameo style, who knows. Yeah. You're putting her keys in the key bowl is what you're saying at the key party. Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Man, I'm going to miss fucked up family February.

Can't wait to talk about electricity during ice, the deuce and don'ts. Mask. It's going to be awesome. All right, thanks. Good to see you guys. Bye.