The Rewatchables - ‘Manhunter’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan come out of retirement to search for the Tooth Fairy as we revisit Michael Mann’s ‘Manhunter,’ starring William Petersen, Brian Cox, and Dennis Farina. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love the rewatchables, we did something cool. Every single action movie we've ever done, we put on a Spotify playlist, which you can search for, just search for the rewatchables action, or go to Spotify. Dot link slash rewatchables action. And you can see every action movie we've ever done laid out. We're doing this for sports movies, comedies, best 1980s, 90s movies. But this will be the first one. So if you've missed anything over the last four years, you can find it right now on Spotify.

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If you want to see anything from the last 60 days, you can get that on any platform. But the last four years, as we head toward 200 movies, only available on the Spotify archives, which are very easy to find. And you could also find, as I mentioned, top, all of our action movies on Spotify. dot link slash rewatchables action coming up your hands are rough chris they don't look like cop's hands anymore man hunter 35th anniversary next somewhere between dreams and reality lies the key to a killer's identity you want to know how he's choosing them don't you hunting in that dangerous place his FBI agent will graham what is it you think you've become

The more deadly the dreams become. Man Hunter. Starts Friday at a theater near you. Check local listings. All right, Chris Ryan is here. Sean Fantasy is here. 1986 was when Mainehunter came out. We're basically celebrating a 35th anniversary now.

It is the second theatrical Michael Man release. We have quickly run through almost all of the Michael Man movies. This is the last one unless we decide to do Ali or Black Hat. Chris, the ending, the Enigata de Vita, to me, that is like heroin in your veins. I can't imagine a scene that you would like more than that. We're going to get to it in a second, but why do you love this movie? Where does this rank in the Michael Man rankings for you? This is top three.

It's some, I mean, heat is in a class of one, and then there's jockeying between Manhunter and collateral for two for me. And then Miami Vice, Miami Vice is my mistress. You know what I mean? Miami Vice is the lady I go see, even though I know it's really bad for me. Right. No, this movie, and I really want to talk about, you know, Manhunter in relation to Silence of the Lambs a lot,

because I think there are kind of like two sides of the rewatchables coin. Like, Silence of the Lambs is this really, in comparison, brisk, very entertaining movie, I think, and it is like incredibly well made and well told. There are parts of Manhunter that are kind of inscrutable. Like there's parts of where you're like, I don't know what part of America this is set in. But it is so poetic. It is so beautiful.

And it bore so deep into you that you can't. You're like Willow Graham at the end of this movie. You're like, I got cut deep. Fantasy? Well, I think it's obvious that it's a brilliantly made movie by a person who's completely obsessed and it's a movie about obsession. And so it's fascinating in that respect. I'll say it's fun to be on this episode with you guys. Bill, your love for this movie confirms for me that you have the soul of an artist.

This is an artist's movie. It's a really fun serial killer movie. It's a good cop movie. But it's, I mean, this is a, this is like an art piece surrounded by serial killer stuff. And I'm sure we'll talk about the colors and the music and the sound. But I mean, this is a really sophisticated, kind of strange movie that also has all the hallmarks of like an entertaining rewatchable. It's a cool movie to talk about.

So you're saying it's an artsy-fartsy, English-lit kind of in college. Somebody's in my dorm room at 3 o'clock. It's a real choice from Reality Bites likes Manhunter more than Silence of the Lambs move. It is. It really is. For me, it's really hard to separate this movie, and I mean this in a positive, happy way from Miami Vice. Because obviously Miami Vice is one of my five favorite shows ever. It's equally as influential as Manhunter is.

And it's basically happening simultaneously. Michael Mann does the first two seasons of Miami Vice, basically. He puts his style, his vision. He's pushing the envelope in all these different ways. And the lead guy in that is Sonny Crockett, who easily just could have been in this movie as Will Graham. Like, they have different jobs, but they're very similar. There's even stuff kind of ripped off for Miami Vice.

Like he's got the one son. He's on the water. He's got to put his family away because they're in danger. There's these little things. And then they use, there's six people that, were in influential Miami Vice moments in this movie. So there's overlap all over the place. He's got the Miami Vice, the Sonny Krakit stubble, Will Graham. Same thing. He's kind of breaking down emotionally a little bit. It's just to me, this is like he took all the stuff he was

doing on Miami Vice. He blew it out. And he made this incredible movie. And I think one of the reasons I'm surprised that took so long for us to do this is this movie was way more influential than I think I realized. It invents all of this stuff, right? Like, what is an action thriller before this movie? Basically, thief was about as far as you're pushing the envelope, but for the most part, movies were either action, where they were horror. This is, I don't know what this is. This is a new genre, but then, like, you think about the forensic profiling and all, and this becomes a huge part of not just TV and movies, but podcasts, true crime podcast, things like that. I don't know, Chris, was there anything like this before this?

So I think that this film is largely credited with popularizing, popularizing, not serial killers per se, but this type of investigation into serial killers, this criminal profiling, this deeply empathic way of trying to think like a killer. But when you say popularizing, though, the movie didn't do well. That's what's so weird about it. It becomes this fanatical cult movie that leads to all these things, but also didn't succeed. Which I think is why five years later

you can make Sons of the Lambs and people are like, this is great, I never seen anything like this. And it's like, they do a lot of like the criminal like investigation stuff in Manhunter. A lot of this stuff where he's walking into rooms

and he's just like, you wanted them to see you. Like when you first watch this movie, you're just like, what the fuck is happening? I do think that there are some precedence for movies that have like this kind of tone. Like there are a lot of Charles Bronson movies

from the 70s that are like, action thrillers. And then there's some Bert Reynolds movies that are action thrillers. Clint Eastwood movies. Clint Eastwood movies that are action thrillers. But they don't have this tone. They don't have this like

sort of like monomaniacal kind of crazed sense of like everyone is kind of coming apart at the seams. Like it's so high tension. And every single person that you see in this movie and obviously especially Will and the tooth fairy and this like duality between the profiler and the investigator. Like something that is this cyclone.

logical was really rare. And it's funny that the way that the profiling stuff became popularized, because even though it is in many ways exactly the same and in the case of William Peterson, like literally he played a guy who did this job later, the tone of that stuff has nothing to do with this. Like, to Chris's point, Silence of the Lambs, even though it features some of the same characters, is a totally different universe in some ways. So this kind of stands on its own to me, too.

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned Bronson. The movies that I was thinking of that came out before this that have DNA that we're trying to get to here but are just not as well made or anything, tightrope with Clint Eastwood, where he's in New Orleans, which is for the people listening, kind of an interesting movie. It's on HBO Max. It's definitely one of the weirdest movies Clint ever made. I think that and Play Misty for me are probably the two wildcard weirdo movies he made. But in that one, he's investigating this person who's strangling prostitutes in New Orleans.

Charles Bronson made a movie called 10 to Midnight. Good movie. That I think is actually a good horror movie. It's with Lisa. My girl, Lisa Albacker, is in it, who eventually tried to seduce Axel Foley and Beverly Hill's cop couldn't pull it off. Axel just wasn't interested. She lied on the bed.

He was too into Jimmy Russo. Yeah, he was still a morning, his lover, Russo. But that movie's got a lot of the same elements, right? Serial Killer on the Loose. It's a little scary. But it's this, what he does in this movie and how artistic it is, it's a real achievement. And what's interesting is he's doing the Red Dragon book, which was a monster book in the early 80s, 1981, I think. And he's trying to adapt that, but really stayed true to the book.

And I think what was horrifying for me was when they did Red Dragon, which is the reason we're doing this podcast. It was on TV the other night. And I was watching it. I'm just like, why the fuck did they do this? why did they make this? Why would they remake Manhunter 16 years after Manhunter when Manhunter was a masterpiece,

which led to me to watch Manhunter again and then text Chris. And Chris was basically like, I've been waiting for this text my whole life. But we might as well talk about Red Dragon now. Was Red Dragon a violation to you, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that people have to understand,

we talked about this a lot with Silence of the Lambs, is the rights issues with this Thomas Harris universe are so complicated and involve probably like five or six different De Laurentices that one person owns Lector and one person owns the Clary Starling story. And then there's like, so there's a lot of different stuff and there's a lot of people exercising their options, making sure they're making movies before like the rights expire and stuff like that. But Red Dragon just sucks. It's a Brett Ratner movie. They took basically a perfect movie. And no matter how good anybody in it could possibly be, it wasn't going to be manhom.

I just really want to say quickly before we get more into this. Another dope movie for people to check out that I think has is a little bit of a building block going into Manhunter is another William Peterson movie called To Live and Die in L.A., which comes out in 85, William Freakin directed. One of the great cop movies of the 80s. I really hope we do it on rewatchables one day. It's a little bit more kinetic and verity than Manhunter is, but has some of the same amazing Wang Chung soundtrack. So deep, like, out there, new wave soundtrack, great villain in Willem Defoe. And a great kind of like the only way to understand thief

is to think like a thief. I'm going undercover thing from William Peterson. That led to one of my favorite Adam Carolla jokes when I worked with Corolla where he would, he had this pitch where it was like, to catch a serial killer, you have to become a serial killer. And then it would just be this show about this guy who was a serial killer because he was trying to catch other serial killers.

But to live with that in LA, there's an interesting Michael Mann-William Friedkin thing, which came up in the internet research. I was just do it now. Michael Mann was so mad about to live and die in L.A. He sues Friedkin and actually has a plagiarism. You've stole from Miami Vice. I'm suing you.

Loses the lawsuit. They somehow stayed friends. And then Friedkin was one of the people he thought about for Hannibal Lecter. It's a classic 80s. I don't know if there was cocaine involved or what's going on. Fantasy, what are you going to sue me, but we stay friends? Come on, man. to somebody and stay friends and then try to cast them in your next movie. The mid-80s are off the

rails. I don't want to spoil the end of this pod, but I do have my lawyer waiting outside your door, Chris, to serve you as soon as you're done recording. It's really funny, though, because I feel like the arc of the Thomas Harris novels and the way that they're adapted is you have this great legacy all the way up till Rad Dragon. You have three different filmmakers, all with three very specific spins on the story. You've got, obviously Michael Mann kicks it off. Then you get Jonathan Demi, the late great Jonathan Demi. Then you get Ridley Scott with Hannibal, which is a controversial movie

and not as good as those other two movies, but does have a lot to recommend it. And I think it's kind of an interesting rewatch in light of having seen these. I started watching it again last night, and I was like, wow, this is, it's actually the most Tony Scott-esque, Ridley Scott movie in a lot of ways.

And then you get Brett Ratner. And Bratner just sucks. Like, he's just not a good filmmaker. And so aside from the fact that Manhunter did something, like, and really invented a subgenre in so many ways, the idea of revisiting it feels like, just such a wasted opportunity. And there's so many great people in that movie.

You know, Bill, that cast is so stacked that it's hard to understand why they did that. Yeah, Hoffman is playing the reporter in that. And it's just, it's like wasting a vintage Hoffman year where he could have been making six other movies that he probably would have gotten nominated for an Oscar for and instead he's in that crap. Hopkins is now 11 years older than he was in Silence of the Lambs. but it's a prequel to Silence of the Lambs, including the doctor Anthony healed, who's 50 pounds heavier and 11 years older,

but it's supposed to be earlier. And the whole thing is like, why? Why did you do this? Ed Norton's doing this weird William Peterson. I don't want to be like William Peterson. And in a lot of ways, to me, it made me like Manhunter more. I really rebelled against Red Dragon.

So just quickly on the style stuff, it really starts with vice, which is weird. There's this movie called Thief of Hearts that I don't think even exists. It's with Stephen Bauer, who is Manning from Scarface and David Caruso, and there are these two thieves, and they steal somebody's jewelry, but they steal the lady's diary. I think I told you about this movie, and Stephen Bauer reads a diary and decides he's going to try to win this woman over. But the style of that movie, and then to live and die in L.A., and then this movie, visually something's happening that I don't feel maybe risky business in 1983 a tiny bit. But other than that, when you're talking about like mainstream bigger movies that also

try to look cool, am I missing anything else? Because risky business was another one where there's just scenes in that movie that just moved differently than an 80s teen movie. I think it's worth mentioning Blade Runner, right? Like, I think Blade Runner is probably the most. usually rich studio genre movie that like people had seen at that time. Like I mean, obviously there's lots of other examples. But that is like, you know, I feel like we talked a little bit about Blade Runner and Thief with Thief. Blade Runner is like a real page turning moment.

We're in a new decade now. We've got new, like there is a different vision for what the world could look like in these movies and it's bringing in all this stuff from German expressionism and shit. There's this really great man quote. I just want to drop for people because I think it kind explains what we're talking about here when he was talking about Manhunter and he said it bores me to present the events of the story in a realist style my approach instead is to conceptualize the elements of the plot taking into consideration the various torments of the human spirit my aim is to exteriorize the spiritual in the expressionist manner and this always leads me to reject realism now i think he eventually embraces realism for later in his career especially with mohicans like even though it's deeply

romantic, but like, he comes back to realism. But this movie is not realist. You know what I mean? Like, in the way that silence is, I think, very realistic and very human. This movie is way more about the construction of compositions and frames to, like, show you how people are feeling when they won't tell you. Well, that first scene. On the beach.

Which, you know, and we talk about this sometimes on the pod where the TVs couldn't properly show how cool some of this shit was. And you had these TVs that were square forever or not clear enough. And now, 10 years ago, the TV's ran in a shape or whenever it was. That first scene now on a widescreen

if you have any sort of an HD type of situation going on, it's so fucking cool. It's really amazing. Farina's sitting one way toward the ocean. Peterson sitting the other way. He's got the cheesy gray cut-off t-shirt that I know Chris owns.

And there's that, they're sitting on that piece of driftwood. And the way man shoots it, it's just like, it looks like the most beautiful place on earth. You could be in St. Bartz, you could be in Mexico. You can be no idea where you are. It turns out we're in Florida. But just, it's so striking. And right away, you're like, whoa. And if you remember, Red Dragon starts with Will Graham going to meet Lecter.

It's the story that he tells his kids. Yeah. We never see that scene in Manhunter. to whether we should have or not, but it just starts with violence. Manhunter doesn't have violence until the end. They intentionally withhold all the violence, which I think Sean's a really smart decision and pretty unique. Totally meditative movie in so many ways. That opening scene, what I thought of when I was watching it last night was in the insider. There's a scene near the end of the movie when Lowell Bergman is fighting to get the story on the air.

He's on the beach. I guess he's in the Hamptons. We don't really know where he is. And I remember, remember when we talked about this on the pop, we were like, why the hell is he at the beach? Like, why is, like, did this actually happen? Did Lowell Bergman have a summer home? Or did Michael Mann just want to return to the infinite and the nothingness of the ocean? Like that, he goes back to it over and over and over again. You know, we see it and we saw it in thief. Same thing. James Kahn with his family on the beach. Like that is a space of salvation for him. Yeah, Neil talking about the algae. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And heat. Over and over again. He has these, he has these tropes. He has these themes that he

loves. And I mean, the quote that Chris shared is why I'm like, I'm ribbing you guys about this being an art movie. I mean, listen to the way Michael Man talks about this stuff. Like, this Thomas Harris book is a pretty good book and it's a really good page turner. But I wouldn't say it's like a sophisticated work of art. It's pop fiction. And in the pop fiction, he pulls out these super heavy themes and makes this meditative movie that you're describing, Bill. So it's a really unusual circumstance. Yeah, he does some stuff with the cameras. The way he shoots the scene the first time he goes to see Lecter. Yeah.

With the weight and the bars. But somehow the angles of Lecter, but then the other side of Will Graham, it's exactly the same angle. I don't know how he does it. If you want to know, like, you could teach that scene in film school. Because if you watch that scene, if you don't know what's happening and you just watch that scene, you don't know which one of them is in jail. You don't know which one of them is behind bars because every shot of Will Graham, he's closed in by the bars from Lecter's perspective. So Will is caught. Even though Lecter's in jail, Will's the one who's caught.

Will can't escape this guy and this guy's voice in his head. And he knows that he has to basically embrace that if he wants to catch the tooth fairy. There's a lot of mirrors and glass and William Peterson staring into a mirror. and then the killer finally breaking the mirror with his fist and using the piece of shards. And then Peterson running through the giant glass door slider in the key scene. But over and over again, it's, you know,

he really tries to make the point of Will Graham is actually kind of losing it. One of the most of it, I didn't have this in most rewatchable scenes, but that really effective scene in the grocery store with this son. Oh, yeah. I got that scene.

That's my most. Yeah. Yeah. Here's what happened to me. I kind of lost my mind. It's just matter of fact, telling his son this whole story in the serial album. Is that how you tell Ben about

Grantland? You guys are walking? You guys are walking through Gelsons. Yeah, I'm like, so Roger Gaddell. And he's like, how did you get fired from the SPN? He's like, actually, I didn't. I didn't get fired. It was a mutual. But here's the thing, Roger Gendell,

and maybe I got carried away. I kind of lost my mind, the Patriots. Yeah, so everything that's laid out, everything that's shot, the way he does this story, the fact that you can watch this movie nine times and then the tenths time

see three other things you didn't really notice you could argue this is the best movie he's ever made I personally I'm always going to be loyal to Heat but from Venet's point of like how artistic this is it's either this or Heat I would say right I mean as not the I'm not the man expert that you guys are I still think Heat is the most purely enjoyable movie that he made

it kind of hits every theme it's really exciting. There's big action set pieces. You've got romances. You've got these two iconic actors going against each other. But this is like the concretization of the Michael Man thing. You know, like all the ideas that we talked about in Thief, this is where he's like, this is who I am. Now, I'm not as big of a Miami Vice fan, so I know that a lot of that stuff was being forged like you're saying a couple years earlier, Bill. But you couldn't put a movie like this on network television. You know, this is something that is way beyond that, both kind of intellectually from a violence perspective, I mean, the Tooth Fairy is a, you know, a pretty fucked up character. That's a very intense serial killer figure in a movie. So I don't know if it's, and I don't even know if it's necessarily the most rewatchable of his movies because there's so much of it that is just Will Graham staring at a screen. I think that the first two-thirds of it are incredibly rewatchable. I think once you get into Francis Dolarod's dating life, it slows down a little bit.

Yeah. You know, I think just as a rewatch, like personally, like there's a very much. like personally like there's a version of this movie that's just nine minutes of pure ferena that I think is maybe the best American film ever made. It's just fucking Farina being like, get me a chopper, the next thing's smoking. Then there is like the Will Graham and the FBI doing the hardcore investigation. And then there is an hour of like, what would a serial killer's first date with a blind lady look like? And like just kind of like once you get to Innegada de Vita, it gets back ramped up again.

But I think in rewatchability terms, it's more of like a once every two years thing for me, even though those are like going to church. Man, he first of all got the rights, but then he started talking to this incarcerated serial a killer named Dennis Wayne Wallace, who was a paranoid schizophrenic who'd become obsessed to the woman he met briefly and started killing other people to save her and was convinced that Anagata de Vita had special meaning to him. And that's how that song ended up in there. but Mann really threw himself in this like he does with anything.

There's a little bit of parallel with him and Will Graham where I think man finishes this movie, and that doesn't do that well. And you look at his career after this, it's a bizarre IMDB because he's out of Miami Vice. He basically helps launch crime story, directs like one episode of that. Then he does LA Takedown,

which was a TV movie that eventually became Miami He, or Miami Vice, which he, he basically says now was my trial test run for what I want to do heat. But it doesn't make another movie until Mohicans, which was Fall in 92. So we have this guy who made this incredible movie that I think has become one of the most respected

cult movies of the 80s, maybe even the 80s and the 90s combined. That doesn't work again for six years. And I wonder, like, Chris, you're the number one Michael Mann expert, but did the lack of success of this movie maybe send him in a tailspin a little bit? I'm not sure in terms of his personal, like, relationship to filmmaking, but I think that he's somebody who is only going to make the movie he wants to make.

And we're kind of in this zone right now with him, where five years ago he made Black Hat. He was supposed to make a Ferrari biographical film, but I think that the Christian Bill Matt Damon movie also happened. There was like a bunch of competing Ferrari movies at a time. So that never really got anywhere. I think he was supposed to make a Vietnam miniseries for FX. I'm not sure what the state of that is. it was the Mark Bowden book in 1968. And now I think

he is working on, although I don't know if he's directed every episode of this Tokyo crime show for HBO. So he's like working on stuff, but I think he's somebody who does not make something unless it's exactly what he wants to make and he gets control over it. And so you

will have five or six, seven year gaps here like you do before he gets to make Mohicans. Now when he goes back and makes Mohicans, he gets a huge budget, he gets Daniel Z. Louis. He moves to the mountains in North Carolina and everybody loses their mind on the set because he's got them pretending like it's actually the colonial era. But like, you know, he's something, he's not like the most prolific guy. Sean, do you wish he was like Soderberg where in like

1989 he just made 48 hours, the 48 hour sequel, just spent four months on it, moved on, just crafted it and just kind of kept going? Well, I do think it would be fun. We talked about this with Spike with Inside Man. It would be fun if he took a genre gig. If he just took a gig where he was like, what I will do is take all of my skills on a script that I didn't write and see what I can do with it. I do think one time it would be neat if he did that. I mean, have we talked to, have we mentioned luck and his involvement in the TV show luck? Right. That's another thing that he did that was short-lived and I think he only directed the pilot but was a producer of that show that also was in many ways an amazing show. And obviously the circumstances

under which it didn't continue were unfortunate, but for horses, yes. Yes, for horses. And I do think he's directing multiple episodes of Tokyo Vice that show you're talking about Chris. So that'll be exciting to see. But I don't know, how can you not respect a guy who's like, I only want to do what I want to do? And the only thing that matters to me is making my best version of that thing. There's so few people

in Hollywood who can operate that way these days. So I dig it. That being said, would have been cool if he made Halloween 5? Yeah, it would have been fucking awesome. Right. It's, you know what a good comparison for man's filmography is, is Ridley Scott's. where Ridley Scott makes a movie every 14 months, basically, and some of them are good, and some of them are not so good.

And then sometimes the not so good movies wind up being really good when you rewatch them or way better than you remembered them. Michael Mann is just like a closer to like once every four or five years he's going to get something off the ground. It's like, would you rather have the Ridley Scott career where you have some real valleys here and there? Or would you rather have the Michael Mann career where people freak out every time it's an event when you release something?

I guess Black Hat, not so much. Well, that's been the sad thing about the last 10 years is that public enemies in Black Hat were just a disappointment. You know, they just were not up to par with the rest of his stuff. And so if you're only going to get two movies every 10 years and those are the two movies you get, it is a little bit disappointing. There's a Black Hat click out there on Twitter especially, where they like, sometimes I get tweets that are like, here's what you don't understand about this masterpiece. And I'm like, is this how I sound to other people when I talk about Miami Vice?

Black Cat we might end up doing it on this podcast. It's going to take me five more times to understand what happened in the first hour and a half. And once I solve that, Manhunter's like that a little bit too. It's confusing unless you've seen it 10 times.

There is some, especially when it just basically shifts the last third of the movie. All of a sudden, you're in a different movie. And it's like, well, wait a second. Now I'm with the serial killer, which I can't really remember seeing. The other thing we should just mention

before we take a break is the serial killer in this movie is unlike any serial killer, any killer we've had in a movie. It's just nobody was like this. It was people wearing masks. It was horror franchises or it was Jack Nicholson in The Shining,

losing his mind. This is just like a fucking weirdo. The first time we see him, he's got the stocky mask over two-thirds of his face. It's absolutely terrifying. And then we get to see him in a normal life having a job. he's six foot five

he's a fucking freak and Tom Noonan is so good at this guy that I actually think it hurt his career it was impossible to see him and not think of this guy and even like when he pops up in heat you're just like Tom Noonan

like he yeah this happened a little bit to Ted Levine too with James Gumb where it was just like the role kind of overpowered how you watched him and anything else right

yeah but it's not like you it's not like Tom Noonan was going to play Lloyd Dobbler they mean. Like Tom Noonan is an odd looking dude and he looks like he's like six, five. I'm not sure how tall he actually is. Yeah. And, you know, I think he was always going to be more of that like New York or Chicago kind of underground art scene rather than... You would have said that about Peter Boyle though and then Peter Boyle ended up doing 10 years of everybody loves Raymond. Yeah, I mean, I guess if Tom Noonan had been in like a king of Queens, like I guess I would have been proved wrong. Right.

Damn it, why didn't we get that? Season 9, episode 5, he just loses it and starts killing everyone on the show. We should just recap, like, Tom Noonan in the Affleck part in the way back. But the other thing is, aside from him, you know, seeming like such a freak,

this is really one of the first movies I can think about that considered the psychological history of a serial killer because of what Peterson's job was that he explains like this guy was likely abused. this guy comes from a difficult upbringing, which has created these violent and distorted tendencies. And, you know, sometimes you would have like a character at the end of Psycho come in and kind of like briefly explain what's going on with a villain to kind of like put an end cap on it. But this movie, it kind of creates like empathy for the most awful person in the world. And that also was kind of unique in and of its time.

Yeah, there's a couple different points. I mean, Joan Allen wanting to touch his face. then them sitting, he's like, hey, let's have a date. I'm going to take the blind girl back to my house. I'm going to watch some home movies of the next family. I think I'm going to kill. But she won't know because she can't see. He gets so excited watching it.

She gets turned on. She feels as pheromones. They start going at it. Then we see him crying in the bed because he's had this emotional moment. Then she's on the deck. He walks out. It's basically like, can we order some postmates? want me to get an omelet.

It's turning into this domestic thing. I have 150 questions about that date. Also, how did she walk out on the deck when she was blind? They're in C. Lewis. Where is there a deck? Right. Good point. But then it all leads to him in the car waiting for her.

Semi creepy, but like, you know, he's trying to turn his life around in the relationship. And the car starts pulling up and he has that weird smile he does. Oh, my God. Where he's like, oh, she's here. And then he sees the guy get out of the car and he just flips and that's it. But you do feel like kind of invested in the guy. It's really weird.

I don't know how he pulls this off. There's no other serial killer where I'm kind of like rooting for him to get the girl. It's the exact thing you were just describing Bill because he bifurcates the movie and the second half of the movie is essentially Dollar Hides movie.

You get the same experience that you got with Peterson where you're like, we meet this guy, we see that he's a little bit damaged. But hey, who knows? Maybe he's into some weird. shit like serial killer profiling or serial killing. Let's just see where he comes from. Let's learn a little bit more about him.

Let's see that he's in a relationship with a woman that makes him seem more human. And he gives as much time and as much of the movie's energy to that character. And because he does that, obviously, the tooth fairy is a psychopath and should be killed, set to the beautiful sounds of Iron Butterfly. But he just, he creates this sense that it's like, we deserve to see as much of this guy as we deserve to see of William Peterson, which is so cool. But you know what's funny about everything you laid out, which you laid out perfectly except for one part?

We meet him with the stocky mask on, and then he sends a guy on fire on a rolling chair down a parking lot. And then we come back to him after that, and we're like, oh, I hope this guy figures it out. Nice if he had a girlfriend. I'm like, what are we doing? It's like a Jedi mind trick. Tough day for tabloid journalism.

Freddie is not the greatest ambassador for the media. So this movie, $50 million budget, made $8.6 million. Barely made even half of it. Mixed reviews. I couldn't find a Roger Ebert Manhunter review that was in the moment. Now, maybe my research skills were not great. But unfortunately, I could not find his take on it. I'm guessing belatedly when he did like his, your guy, Sean, he would go back and

revised history about how I felt about movies if they became cool. So maybe he liked it retroactively, but I couldn't find anything. Coming up, we need the categories right after this. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com and to your license plate or VIN and get a real offer down to the penny.

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diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Before we get to the categories, I looked it up during the break, and Roger Eber gave Red Dragon three and a half stars. What? Very, very flatteringly about it. It's unclear if you ever saw Manhattan.

Most rewatchable scene. The nominees, the opening. scene with Peterson and Farina. If you can't look anymore, I understand. I'll try to run a game down on me, Jack. If I really didn't need you to come back, I wouldn't ask.

This guy's on a lunar cycle. I have three weeks and a few days until the next full moon. We have a better chance to get him fast if you help. It's pretty much everything you want from a scene, Chris. Was anything missing? Yeah, this is how you talked me into doing the ringer.

Maybe Embed shooting threes from in the distance. Cgi-I'd in would be the last piece for you. It's a piece of Driftwood. It's William Peterson and Dennis Farina being Chicago is shit, even though they're in Captiva, Florida. And it's just like immediately, the thing I love about this movie, Siles and Lambs brings you into this world very well

because Clarice is the fish out of water character, right? So like she's brought into this world that she's just, and you're being introduced to it with her, with Will Graham, he's recovering from this world. So you're always playing catch-up with these characters. And this scene is great because it's just like, you're like, what happened to Will Graham that he's so fucked up that he needs to just be super tan

hanging out with his wife and kid in Captiva. And the Farina thing just completely draws him back in. Well, also, it starts out in the happiest, lightest, bluest place you could ever be in. And then at about the hour, Mark now, it's just darkness everywhere. Everything is dark. Every room.

It's dark outside constantly. And then at the end, it comes back and all of a sudden the sun's back out again. I don't know. It seems intentional. My favorite part of that scene is when Kim Grease's character starts walking towards Farina and Farina says, hey, Molly, and she just looks at him and doesn't say anything. But that hangs out with him. And they have dinner?

Yeah. Sean, who was Dennis Farina for New York? Who was the real-life cop turned actor turned the funniest person to watch in any movie ever? Yeah, that New York didn't have that version, right? No, you know, I was texting with Chris last night about Farina, because obviously we're both obsessed with him. Can I tell a very quick Farina story? Yeah.

So I interviewed him in 2011 before I came to work for you, Bill. And we got on the phone. I was working at GQ at the time. And I wanted to have the interview where he was like, me and him are going to talk for two hours. And I'm going to get the whole life story. and so I opened with a very obvious question about him, you know, working on thief and then crime story. And I was like, can you just like, let's start from the beginning. You know, like, let's start.

When did you meet Michael Mann? And he goes, ah, Sean, I'm not telling that fucking story. I've told that story a hundred times. God damn it. I'm not talking about it, okay? And I was like, so rattled. Oh my God. Totally.

I would have just drowned myself. I was so all throwing off my game. And then the rest of the interview, we just, I think we just. talked about the movie that he was promoting, which was not at all what I wanted to do. And he was a powerful dude. Wow. I mean, he was a real life former cop. And you're a guy who grew up in a family of cop, so we're still somehow intimidated by him.

Well, I thought I was going to be able to relate to him. I thought I could throw a little New York on the voice, and he would relate to me. And he was like, listen, you fucking clown child media member. I don't respect you. Go read the papers. I had this in what stage the best, but we can do this now. This is really, this is the free innocence is all happening here. It starts with Miami Vice where he's Lombard, which is one of the five best episodes.

He's this kind of evil crime boss that then pops back up in the last episode of season one where he starts working with Crocket and Tubbs. And that episode's amazing. He's amazing in it. And you just see him in that. And you're like, oh, it totally makes sense. This guy would be in some really memorable movies. Goes from that to Manhunter.

does crime story and then everything peaks with Midnight Run which we'd cover and the Rwatch was before but then he's been in other ones like he was in out of sight

he was J-Lo's dad and that and he just keeps popping up and it was always great to see him and I'm with you there's a unicorn they needed to make

there's no Boston version of him they needed to make 10 more Elmore Leonard movies for him just and put him in every single one of them love him and get Shorty yeah

love him and snatch he's just a great crime movie figure plays a great cop plays a great villain. Sidney, shut the fuck up. Get a cream soda, do some fucking thing.

More rewatchable. We might have to do the midnight rerun. I'll come down. Was that just me and you when we did that? Yeah, I think so. Maybe we just do the midnight rerun and we invite two other people and just break that down again. I could easily run that back. Next rewatchable scene. We'll go to the victim's house.

Yeah. Intruder cut Charles Leeds' throat as he was rising, then shot Mrs. Leeds. Bullet entered right of her navel and lodged in her lumbar spine, but she died of strangulation. Moderate elevation of serotonin and marked increase of free histamine level and gunshot wound indicates she lived at least five minutes after she was shot. All her other injuries were post-mortem. Direction and velocity of bloodstains on East Wall indicate arterial spray. Even with his throat cut, Leeds tried to fight because the intruder was moving to the children's room. which is such a harrowing scene and nothing happens,

but the whole time you're convinced, like the killer's somewhere in there. The way they do it, it's so unsettling. And then he's doing the weird William Peterson thing talking to the recorder. He's a bathroom. I think he went in here. He's just like muttering to him.

He's intermonologuing it, basically. What do you like about that scene, Chris? Well, it's how I break down tape when I watch basketball. I sit there with a tape recorder. I'm like, Danny Green. But why did he want that corner? three.

Matisse Stuybo. He was tired that night. He was playing the passing lanes. Just always sees the passing lanes. Like nobody else. That's good. You should do it that way. I think that's how you should watch basketball games.

And just like upload that as the answer. Actually, I got to be honest. If you told me that's how Rasillo watch basketball games, I wouldn't be shocked. Oh my God. You still had a little recorder who's just muttering comments into it? Corner action coming off a pin down.

I bet he's tried it. Look, the thing is. is that, like, even in 86, but if you're watching this movie for the first time now, you've seen hundreds of movies and TV shows where, like, this is the best cop. This is the best investigator. It's hard to, like, actually make that seem to be the case. You know what I mean? Most of the times it's like, this guy's hard driving. He'll do whatever it takes. But Will is actually showing you how he is going to put himself in the, in the mindset of the guy who did this crime. And it really comes to fruition when he, you can tell he's holding back a little bit.

And it really comes to fruition when he goes to his hotel room. Yeah. Next one, Graham versus Lecter. I call this Graham versus Lecter one. Yeah. Like the Ali Fraser one. You want to know how he's choosing them, don't you? I thought you might have some ideas.

Why should I tell you? You get to see the file in this case. And there's another reason. Pray tell. But you might be curious to see if you're smarter than the person I'm looking for. Then by implication, you think you're smarter than me since you caught me. No. I know.

that I'm not smarter than you. Then how did you catch me? You had disadvantages. What disadvantages? You're insane. We talked about at the top, but all the shit they do in this scene is out of control. This is really one of the great, this is one of the best Michael Man scenes. Just period. In any movie he's done, culminating with, if you don't think you're smarter than me, then how do you catch me? You have disadvantages. What disadvantages? You're insane. That exchange is unbelievable. And Lecter's like, ah, good point. I, I am insane. You're right. So, like, the Brian Cox thing, man, I personally, I understand, like, it's sacrilegious. Hopkins is Lector. Like, Hopkins is so incredible in silence. I'm not taking away from that. There's something a little bit more. Yes, Chris. Just fucking go for it, man. I had this up for later, but just do it now, man. He is, he's at once scarier and more realistic as Lector. When he says to Graham, when he goes, dream much will, I'm

You fucking kidding me? That is the scariest thing Lector says throughout any of these movies is when this dude's like, I own your head. How about smell yourself? Yes. Smell yourself.

Just throwaway line. Hopkins would have... Look, Hopkins is amazing. It sounds like Lambs. We did that as a pod. All of us thought that's a tour divorce. We all thought he should have won the Oscar. Cox is...

There's stuff Cox is doing with the Lector thing that is just less cartoonish. and creepier. I think fantasy, you're on this side, it sounds like. 100%. I mean, it's, it's, they're basically two different characters in a lot of ways. The Cox character, I read that man told him to play him like an English schoolboy,

which he does. He's like, he's mischievous, but not in a playful way, in a dangerous way. Like he might hurt you. And Lecter is scary, quote unquote, scary. But there's something, it's become too, it's become too much of a pop-cultural load-faring force.

The Fava Beans and Kanti, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Cox is doing something where you genuinely think he might, he might send the Tooth Fairy to kill Will Peterson. Like, you know, that could happen. The other thing is that with Hopkins, and once it becomes kind of calcified as the performance that he's giving

and everybody is sort of like doing jokes about it, you can't really separate the legacy of the performance, but the performance itself, the Cox version of Lecter is a guy you wouldn't be shocked to see it like a restaurant. You know what I mean? Like he seems like a guy

who is incredibly smart whereas Lecter, you're like, if you spoke with Anthony Hopkins's Hannibal Lecter once, why would you think he was anything else but a serial killer? Yeah, it's a good point.

I really like that scene. I think that scene's awesome. I don't know what the top five scenes of Michael Mann's career are, but it has to be on that list. Well, there's another one coming up that's in the top five. too.

The airplane scene I have as a rewatchable just because that's in the wrong hands in the mid-80s that scenes a disaster where he's on the airplane, dream sequence

and it goes from the dream sequence right to the photos of everybody with their eyes cut out and the little girl sitting next to him like Bobby, like that scene is weirdly terrifying.

But just imagine I'm in that seat in the aisle seat with my daughter next to me and all of a sudden there's this fucking weirdo with all these photos. How do you explain that after? But hey, sorry about that. So I work for the FBI and try to catch this guy. But I like that scene. Can't believe FBI is flying Will Graham coach all over the country to track a serial killer. Especially since every line Freina has, it seems to be like bragging about whatever piece of airline. He's guys, I got the Lear Jet. It's gassed up. We'll get you there

in an hour. Right. The killer torturing Freddie. We have to put his real. It's not going to win, but it's just we have to mention that scene. Do you see? Look at the screen. William Blix, the great red dragon, and the woman clothed and the rays of the sun. Do you see? Yes.

Mrs. Leeds, do you see? Yes. Mrs. Jacoby. Do you see? Yes. The next family as they will look when I go to visit them. Do you see? Yes.

Really good. In Red Dragon, which I finally stopped watching because I got mad, but I did get through this scene when he's torturing Philip Seymor Hoffman. I got to say, Philip Seymorhoffin's amazing in that scene.

He's like completely terrified, horrified, and Ray finds he does the tattoo thing with his back, which they do not have in this movie, and I actually thought it was effective. That's what made me stop watching it because I kind of enjoyed the scene. I'm like, what the fight? No, you're not, no, Brett Radner, no.

And I just turned. it. The tiger scene? Oh my God. So good. Joan Allen blind petting the sedated tiger and Noon is in the background

making the same face that Chris made during the Philly special during the Super Bowl. This head tilted back. That scene's just really cool and it's a real tiger? Yes. I did some research to see

if animals were harmed in the making in this film or whatever but apparently you can sedate. tigers like that and just do it. Michael Mann, not a great history of animals. With animals? If he comes on the re-reheat, we're probably not going to bring up animals to him.

The Will figures everything out scene, which is corny, but I still like it. When Jack's watching all the films. Yeah. And Jack, he figures out the films. And he's just like, and it takes them, it just feels, I had this in picket, and it might as well do it now. I just feel like you're the best at this.

It took you two months. to figure out maybe this dude was watching different home movies of the families, and that's how maybe we should go check out who manufactured the home movies. You're the Michael Jordan of criminal profiling this took you two months? I don't know. I will say I had been backpocketing that scene to talk about. That's how Chris breaks down tape, and then Chris got way out in front of it. Like I had an M.B. joke all lined up, and then Chris just jumped right in there. It's tough. It's really tough. I do like that scene. It's not the best scene. But, and Peterson, we'll litigate Peterson in a second.

Then the ending, which is going to be my pick, where the movie just completely goes haywire. It's an unbelievable five minutes, and that's my pick. So tell me if I'm crazy. You didn't say the scene that I was going to say. I mean, the Lecter Graham first cell scene, that's like in a class by itself. My most rewatchable scene is definitely the note relay that the FBI runs, where all the different experts work on the note, and they're running up and down the hallways. and he's like, you're so sly, you're so sly, but so am I.

And then they have like the conference music. That thing is, that is incredible watching like all of them marshal their 1980s tech to figure out what's the missing text in between these two pieces of toilet paper. Scale counts on coarse sides of the hair match the blonde hair found in the Jacobes. That note was written by your man. Aside from the hair, three blue grains, dark flex, went to Brian's end. The grains are commercial granulated cleanser with chlorine. from the cleaning man.

Several particles of dried blood, but not enough to type. You like the conference room because it's basically the prototype for 15 years of CSI shows. That's right. That scene with Chris Elliott becomes, what, 300 episodes

of CSI, basically? Yes, that's such a good call. It's true. What do you have for most rewatchable, Sean? It's got to be Lecter and Will Graham. Graham Lecter 1? Yeah. I like the ending.

The last thing. I really like the last 20 minutes of this if it's on, I'm just watching it. You're such an artiste, man. The ending is so interesting. Left back bill. Weird montage, you know, new wave cutting and editing.

Like, it's really odd. You know, I think one of the reasons why the movie is like not a hit is because while it is a kind of exciting ending, it's weirdly unsatisfying because it's very artistic. It's very unusual. Him running toward the slider window,

whatever the fuck that is, and his and uh... dollar hides head jerking up and then you just see him like slow motion like he's like rich eyes and running the 40 yard dash and he goes through

what if he jumped through and he just was like that was metal and he just bounced off it I was thinking that there could have been an amazing naked gun movie basically just parroting every part of this movie where he's running in boom bounces off it all right what's age the best

we mentioned the blend of cutting edge forensic science and criminal profiling. Look, this just didn't happen before. I remember, I think I was in college, maybe right after. Somebody wrote a book called Mind Hunter. Remember that? And it became like a best, best, best seller.

And it was somebody did this for a living and it was like how he broke down. And I think I read that. But it was one of those times where I read the entire book in one sitting. I was just like, and it was like, what is this world? I'm so fast.

And there just wasn't a lot of stuff out there. And now all of a sudden, it's the opposite. There's a glut. There's documentaries left and right. There's podcasts left and right. There's 17 different CSI rip-offs. But I got to say, until the mid-90s, there just wasn't anything. So you just kind of glommed onto this stuff.

But Manhunter was at the forefront of it. Chris, I have Red Sevens heartbeat as what stage the best. Do you have a counter? No. I mean, I don't think so. Heartbeat, heartbeat. So this is gonna feel my heartbeat. Do you think that Demi saw this scene and did goodbye horses off of it?

Do you think he was inspired by the vibes of that montage for the goodbye horses team? I feel like the song call out is the prime mover song, right? That was good too. As strong as I am, that's what the pan flute at the beginning. That's when she's got her head on the tiger. I like the soundtrack in this movie. Yeah, it's really good. The beach house is what stage the best.

Filmed in Sanibel Captiva, Florida, a place that Chris owns a third home in. It's planning and retiring there. The beach house is my favorite artist's house in Captiva. It's Robert Rauschenberg's house. I believe Robert Arsenberg, but it's his beach house. So this is a semi-island off,

kind of, I guess, Fort Myers would be the closest if you're just going by baseball spring training cities. It's off the Gulf. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very small population, a little underground. And as Chris and I were texting about it last night, Chris admitted that he loves Florida and wants to settle down there at some point.

What I learned last night. Chris Ryan, huge Florida guy. C.R., you've done some time down in Florida. What do you know about it? Yeah, that's the thing is, like, I feel like I had a lot of formative experiences growing up, going down to West Palm Beach and then going down to Naples for a little while. Yeah. Well, I feel like your complexion and also, you know, your body, your physical presence is really like,

suited to the beach. Yeah, also, I'm all for business. You know what I mean? Business, keeping businesses open. I told CR, my dream is for my son to go to Rollins so I could just make random Florida trips. It's in Winter Park. It's near the WW complex. I'd be so good with that. My buddy Gus went there. More, what's age the best? Tom Noonan. Lecter's quote, and if one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is. That would have been an amazing senior yearbook quote, that just would have freaked everybody out. It's like the person everyone was afraid was going to commit

a crime in high school has that as a quote. You're like, all right, cool, we're not inviting him to the graduation. The colors. Brian Cox, the fact that Brian Cox then morphed into Brian Cox, and I feel like Brian Cox, I can't think of another actor who over the years just is like, there's like

five Brian Coxes. We have like 1980s Brian Cox. You have like 1990s Brian Cox. So you have like 1990s, Brian Cox. So you have the succession Brian Cox, which has no relation at all, physically looks wise, anything to the other Brian Coxes? He was a great actor. He was able to have like three or four different iterations of his career. There's like a time period where he's like really hammy, like swords and shields and sandals epics, Brian Cox. Then there's like, he's in some incredible. I mean, he's in this, uh, when is,

um, what's that Ken Loach movie, Sean with Francis McDormon that he's in? Like, is that hidden target or like, what's the name of that movie? Oh, geez. I don't remember the name of it. He's in a really cool, like, thriller with Francis McDormann in the early 80s. Like, he's a great actor, man. There's some other people that have had this happen to them, right? Like, John Voigt in the mid-90s became character actor John Voight and was just like it was like he'd been replaced by a different John Voight.

Christopher Plummer, when he became old Christopher Plummer, he just had no correlation to the other Christopher Plummers. But Brian Cox, I do feel like he's had like four incarnations. He has this amazing ability to play both the most, most, evil person on the planet and also like the sweetest person on the planet. You know, his performance in 25th hour is just one of my favorites of all time. Yeah. As the father.

And he's also like he's so creepy in L.I.E. I don't know if you guys have ever seen L.I.E. He's really good as like the like basically like the middleman and the born movies. Yeah. Yeah. With Joan Allen. Mm-hmm. He was graded in shallow how.

No. Chris, what's age the best? The phrase, time is luck. used by Molly when talking to Will. What other Michael Mann movies have relied on a character saying time is luck to another character? Is that in collateral? Does Vincent say that to Jamie Fox's character and collateral? So that was not in my research.

Okay. It was Neil McCauley says it to Edie in here. Gongli's character says it to our guy sunny and the Miami Vice Remed. That's right. I knew I knew it was one of those. Yeah. Three different movies. Michael Mann pulls off the time is luck trope with somebody saying that.

He's the best. He's the best. I love it. I love when he runs it back. He's just like, that worked. I'm running it back. Let me ask you guys an important question.

What the hell does that mean? Time is luck. Sean, it's time is luck, baby. Time is luck. It means when you meet somebody at the right time, that's luck. I don't know. Guess when he stopped using it when he made luck, the TV show. It turned out time wasn't luck.

time sometimes is it lucky. My nominee for What's Age the Best, this is my vote, was the Miami Vice peripheral casting, which I mentioned earlier, includes Kim Grease, who's William Peterson's girlfriend, plays Crocket's girlfriend

in season one in an amazing episode. Chris, at some point, when I'm gonna retire, four years from now, the last six months, I want to just do season one rewatchable as Miami Vice. I'm here for you.

Then I'm gonna retire. I walk off in the sunset after that. Captain Grease plays Crocket's girlfriend, and she's obviously very good looking. She's got a good job. She's got a really cool house. He starts sleeping over there. He starts losing his edge.

That's right. They have a stakeout. Him and Tubbs doesn't show up. Tubbs gets beaten up. Leading to an amazing doorbell rings at Kim Grease's house. Crockett goes to answer it, opens the door slow-mo. There's Tubbs, takes off the sunglasses. his faces all banged up,

cut by the Don Johnson look away. Kim greased. So they used her. Farina, who's the biggest mob boss in season one, Lombard. Michael Talbot, who was on the show, Azido, the Zito Switech, the two goofball cops? He's the real estate agent. I thought I was going to unload this turkey.

Right. Freddie, the reporter, was played by Stephen Lang, who was in the episode Evan, which was considered by a lot of people to be the best Miami Vice episode ever. Crocket's old partner who comes back. That was a lot of good Jan Hammer music in that one.

What season is that? That's season one. Crockett's original partner in the Miami Vice pilot was one of the people in that scene you mentioned when the conference, when they're trying to decipher the letter. That's the guy who sells out Crockett

and leads to the sergeant getting shot. Oh, Jimmy Smith's getting shot. And then last but not least, the Argentinian assassin from Return of Calderon is in this movie as like a good guy he's in one team but apparently there's some history on that guy that we'll get into later so there's six people from memorable Miami Vice episodes

he's got a crew Scorsese has a crew like these guys like they find their repertory company Sean are you going to be in the return of Calderon two-part rewatchables that we do I probably need to revisit that before I can weigh in It's probably been 15 years since I saw it on cable. Where did they used to rear Miami Vice? Was it USA?

Where could you watch it? It's on Hulu right now, I think, or one of those. Yeah, but it was on one of the cable channels. Yeah, when I was a kid, it was on, I think it was the USA Network. Is it either that or like TBS? Yeah. Yeah. For the people out there, if you want to get deep dive, if you're bored after 14 months of pandemic stuff,

you've run out of stuff, watch the Miami Vice pilot, then fast forward to return to Calderon, which is two-part. Just watch those four. It's probably, I would say, three hours total. And if you don't have a good time, I don't know what to tell you. Still never been a network television show like it. There's really nothing to compare it to. And Crockett, Don Johnson was the most overqualified person who's ever been on a show like that.

I actually found out when I did the research, because I was curious to see if they looked at him for Manhunter. There's one thing in there about how the studio might have wanted him for it. But he tried to leave Miami Vice after season two to make movies. and then they ended up like overpaying. Yeah, they're back at the truck. He was basically out. Any other what stage the best for you guys?

I mean, I just want to, we've talked about it already, but Dante Spanati is the cinematographer here, and he worked on a bunch of Michael Mann movies, and this is the work he does here is incredible. Like Molly and Will, writhing around in total blue light in that house, they shot that during the day, but then gelled everything so that it looked like it was night,

but that the water had sun sparkling on it, It's just like next level, genius shit. Sean, does anyone ride for cinematographers more than Chris? He loves him. Sean. He loves the shots. I love the shots too. Blue in this movie, safety.

Green searching on a quest. Red, danger. Anytime you see those colors, that's what he's trying to tell you. It's very simple, but very effective. He wears a green tie when he goes to see Lecter for the first time. Yeah. How does this cinematographer rank against your guy Gordo? Ooh.

Tough one for you, Chris. I mean, that's, that's a Sophie's choice. I don't know. Gordo or Dante? I don't know. Jesus. Yeah, noosh. Do you think Will Graham is the quintessential 80s cop?

Like, has he aged the best as, who's your number one 80s cop? Crocket. I still have Crocket in my advice. That's the, that's the, to me, that's the pinnacle. I still got Crystal and running scared. Those are good, too. And Jack Cates, as are a rassable semi-referable. racist cop for 48 hours.

My favorite vaguely, he's not like a, my favorite cop of the 80s is still Jack Walsh from Midnight Run. And Jack Walsh, yeah. Yeah. This would be a good special episode. Sean, you might have to invite me on the big picture. You want to do an 80s Cops episode? Man, just do the 15 best cops ever in a movie, movie TV show.

Sean, would your dad have notes on that episode? Yeah, he would say, as usual, anytime I've ever watched any cop-related piece of entertainment, And he's like, that's bullshit. That's not how it is. It does not matter what it is. It could be as brilliant as homicide life on the street or as humorous as midnight run. You'd be like, that ain't how it is. My stepmother was that way with ER and Gray's Anatomy and basically any hospital show because she's an OBG way.

And it's the same thing. So, no, we don't do it that way. But the thing is, like, if they ever made a TV show about like a digital media company, we would hate it. We would pick apart every piece of it, right? Think about the wire. The wire is the most acclaimed show of all time. We watched the first four seasons. We were like, well, this is modern Shakespeare.

Fifth season journalism, we were like, yo, this season sucks. Yeah, fuck this is. This is super dumb. No way this would happen. All right, we're going to take a break to the rest of categories. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce, and some very tasty, limited time flavors.

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Visit Spectrum.com slash free for life to find out how. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. All right, what stage the worst? So the title was originally Red Dragon and then a lot of people had issues with it. man wanted to keep it. Dino D. Larentas, who I don't know if he was

in a feud with Mara Ocasar and Andrew Vajna at that point, or whether they all got along. That should be a ringer narrative podcast, just trying to figure out who all these people were. Those guys definitely hung out in Cyprus. You know, like whatever happened, like those three guys. Or in a boat and grease, something

like that. Yeah. So year the dragon came out in 85, produced by DeLorentis it bombed, and that made DeLorethus say we can't do dragons, so that's how they end up with Manhunter. I got to say belatedly, I don't mind Manhunter, but Red Dragon makes way more sense as a title, I think. All right, so not showing the Lecter Graham incident.

Red Dragon starts with it, and it's actually a really good scene. And it's really the only case for watching Red Dragon is just for that scene. On the other hand, we talked about why it's so important there's no violence in this movie until the end. I guess where I landed is, I wish there had been the scene filmed, not in the movie, and now available on YouTube, that we could watch. where they have the actual Lecter,

William Peterson, they just, they have the whole thing and they both shoot each other. I think I would like to be able to watch this on YouTube. I just don't think that's what this movie is about.

So like the opening shots of this film are obviously from the perspective. It's post trauma. Yeah, but it's about the psychological trauma and the psychological scars that are left behind by violence as much as it is violence,

although it's certainly that. And I just think that will, Will being in this state of like, I'm trying to recover from this is much more interesting to me than watching like a fresh-faced Will Graham get cut to pieces and then winds up in Captiva and then gets asked to come back. You get everything you would need from that scene in that scene on the driftwood on the beach where Jack's like... Well, that's why it's a smart cut. And that's why Brett Ratner looked at it and goes, hey, we should have those guys fight.

I just wish it existed. I wish there was like some sort of take. You want the optionality. Right. It was just where they filmed it and it didn't work. I just would have been able to like to watch it. Another what's aged the worst for me is Lector's prison cell in silence of the lambs. Age is the worst after you watch the Manhunter prison cell,

which I think is weirdly more effective. They make it in Silence of Lambs. They really try to make it spooky. It's like a medieval dungeon. Yeah. Yeah. Which leads you to my next one's age the worst. I think I would have included Miggs in Manhunter as a cameo.

Maybe he could have thrown his body fluids at Will Graham. as he was walking out. Maybe he's like Freddie Lowndes' photographer. Right. Miggs, I think it's a miss that Miggs wasn't in here. And then here's my last one's age of worst. 16 years later, William Peterson and Tom Noonan would meet again in the CSI episode, Abra Cadaver.

It's great stuff. It's a thing that happened. Tom Noonan and William Peterson reuniting on Abra Cadaver. Why did that have to happen, Chris? I don't know. Couldn't Tom Noon have said no? CSI's pretty good for procedural, though. Those first few seasons are pretty good.

Any other what stage yours for you guys? No, there's a lot of behavioral stuff, like smoking in elevators. That's kind of gone by the wayside. I loved it. Yeah. I wish it would come back. Casting what ifs. De Laurentis, he wanted Richard Guillermo, Mel Gibson, and Paul Newman.

Man cast Peterson after seeing footage from To Live and Die in L.A., probably as he was suing William Friedkin. Hannibal Lecter, John Lithgow, Mandy Patankan, William Freak, and Brian Dennehy all considered, and apparently they talked to Denny He, and then Denny He recommended Brian Cox. So I watched an interview with Cox about this, and I've never seen this before, but Cox in the interview was like, yeah, you know, they were talking to Lithgow and Denahey, and I was the right man. Like, it was weird for him to be recognizing the fact.

Is it a he check? Yeah, a little bit. And it was also, he's equally kind of. Zanguine about not getting Silence of the Lambs. He's like, because him and Anthony Hopkins have the same agent. And they were like, yeah, and then my agent called me and said, Tony was up

for this role of Quigley, and I was just like, well, that's fine. And I'm just like, yeah, then you fucking missed out on like a billion dollars. Yeah, seriously. I got to say Lithgow would have been interesting. I'm happy where we landed, but I think Lithgow and he ends up basically doing it on Dexter,

and that was one of the best one season seasons we've ever had. I was going to say raising Kane. I feel like in Raising Kane, he's basically doing it like five years later. Yeah, Lithgow could have done it. So David Lynch almost directed it and did not like the story and backed up. And then I love this one. A then unknown, Ted Levine came to the rap party to visit his buddy William Peterson, his old friend from the Chicago theater scene. The Steppenwolf Boys

had a chance meeting with Michael Mann that led to him being cast in crime story and eventually becoming James Gun. So there you go. And then showing back up in Vincent Hanna's squad and he... I feel like we should have the Hater hotline where anytime James Gumm is mentioned, we can just get Hater to come on for 10 seconds and just do GUM. Shri big fat lady. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award.

I mentioned the Argentinian hitman on Miami Vice who played an FBI SWAT team member. His name is Jim Zubiana. He was the Southwest Pistol League champion. Man became fascinated by him because of how fast he could draw guns. That's how ended up in this vice episode. So he's a nominee. There's a bunch of that guys in this movie, and it was 35 years ago. So it's tough.

But is Chris Elliott now count as a that guy for anyone under 35? I think he's Chris Elliott. He's pretty famous. That's how I feel. But do you guys think Stephen Lang is at that guy? I think he is. I personally do. Yeah.

I mean, I think everybody on the FBI, in that FBI, B.I conference room has that guy, like, you know, Dan Butler, who plays Jimmy, the, the prince guy. But yeah, I mean, Lang, Lange's pretty big now. I mean, he's in Avatar, right? He was in Avatar. Yeah. So, like, he's been, so he doesn't count. Yeah, Avatar was pretty big. You know, even though he was the, and also, if you look at him in this movie, you would never be able to tell that he's Freddie from, from Manhunter versus the villain in Avatar. Yes. We could go with the guy I had who was Crocket's first partner in Miami Vice, and then he's in this, that's, that's guy, he is like to me a classic that guy. He's been in a million things. I don't know what his

name is. I didn't even look it up. Vincent Hanna, give me all he got a word. Sorry, Peterson has to win this. He dials it up a couple times. And there's a couple moments that I think are a little bit too big for him as an actor, to be honest. I have been picking hits. I completely fucking disagree. Well, I'm just going to come out and say it. Okay. We have to fight about it. What, where do you think he's overdoing it when he says, you son of a bitch? You wanted them to see you. You're like that stuff? The scene when he attacks Freddy is just not great.

That's not a great scene. When he fucking soup-ups is like? He throws him on a car and then he's like, all right, let's go get an orange juice. Like that is just bizarre. I think the scene when he's finally figuring out what happened and that they should go check the... The cans. And he's touching the window. And he's like, ah, I just feel like they needed one.

I just don't understand. If we're in a movie and we've got Noonan Farina Lang, we're going to be like Peterson's the one who's overacting. Well, I had Lang as for the Judd Nelson Award for a guy who's in a different movie. He's in some mid-80s NBC cop pilot just dialing it up. And it's like, you're in a real movie, dude. Michael Mann's directed this. What are you doing?

The funniest scene in this movie is when he agrees to do the interview with Freddie. And Freddie says, how does working on this case affect your sex life? And Will Graham says, mine, it doesn't affect mine, it affects yours. Go fuck yourself. Michael Mann also has a very strange idea of like, like what kind of social lives journalists have?

Because he's like, and then like after hours, Freddie just has like two girls on his arms. Right. This guy is writing like the third story on the front page of like star or the inquirer. You don't think he's like rolling out like that. This was a weird era for them glamorizing the life of newspaper reporters, which was not glamorous.

But there were other movies like that. But Freddie's approach to journalism is completely like kind of, I think, fallen by the wayside. Like I was thinking like what would happen if once we're, once they do like media availability in stadiums again, like you bring this vibe to like the Clippers locker room.

Like, hey, Kauai Lennett, you are news, man. I'm asking you the tough questions. How's your sex life? Dan Waiters Award is, Is Tom Noon ineligible? He's in a lot of scenes. He's in an hour of this movie. Yeah, so I'm going to say no.

Is Farina in too much? I think Farina isn't too much. I was going to say, possibly Joan Allen? Yeah. Because that's kind of a nothing character, but she's really good. And I'm completely convinced she's blind. I believe that she falls for this weirdo. Have there been performances by people where you're like,

I'm not convinced this person's blind? Val Kilmer and at first sight. I was going to say that, Bill. That's exactly what I was going to say. That's not a comedy. I don't know if you guys have seen that. He's so bad in it. Oh, my God.

It's so bad. Listen, we're all in the Kilmer High. That's a tough one for our focus group. That's hilarious that you said that. Have we ever had such a low-key Dion Waders winner? I mean, she's quite good in this movie, but it's a very obviously pretty quiet performance. Oh, wait.

We can give this to Cox. He's in the movie for 10 minutes. Oh, right. Great. Yeah. Cox wins this. My bad. recasting couch.

Chris, you're not going to like this. Are you taking my guy out of this movie? Richard Gear is Will Graham. Give me a fucking break. 1986, Richard Gear. The first day he works in his life will be the, like that, come on. Are you kidding me?

Richard Gear is a cop instead of William Peterson? First of all. I know Internal Affairs. You're going to talk to me about internal affairs now, right? Richard Gear's been good in movies. He just picks the wrong movies. I don't think, I think one of the reasons this movie didn't work was nobody knew who the fuck William Peterson was.

And, you know, like, I think the last 35 of years of his career where he basically, he settles down as a CSI TV actor, like, was he big enough for this part? Did we need, like, a Richard Gear, like, a bigger, more famous actor to be in this movie? Let me see Richard Gear 86. Has a, let me ask you this about William Peterson. Has a working actor ever in his life hit it big? the way that Peterson hit it big in his 50s. He has to wait until, I mean, what year does CSI start?

Like, 2003? 2001, something like that, yeah. I mean, what was he doing in the 90s? He's like the eighth lead in mediocre movies. He just was not in a lot of movies. Chris, you got to come to grips with this one. He came out of the gate super hot with a couple. It was like a little Tyreek Evans kind of start.

I know, I know. 25 and 6 on the Kings as a rookie. Whoa. And then it's like, it really tails off there for 15 years. And then he becomes the biggest movie star in the country. I mean, CSI was the biggest show on television. For the biggest TV star for 10 consecutive years. And now he's going back to it.

They're bringing it back as CSI Vegas with him and him and some of the original people. He's gone back to the well? Mm-hmm. Hmm. Richard Gear, no? Sean, you get a tie-breaking vote. I got upset Bill. 1986, Richard Gear.

Because I think that you're on to something. Now he's coming off of Cotton Club there because that's a big disaster, but I think that you're on to something. I'll tell you what I was intrigued by was when you said Paul Newman was up for this. Like older Will Graham, that would have been pretty cool.

I would have been interested in that. So that would have been right around color money. Who, like, all time, if you could grab anybody from any air and time machine them into this part, I think like 1974 range red, Redford would have been really good in this? Too pretty.

Too pretty? I mean, mid-60s, Brando. Jesus. Oh, shit. Talk about like an internal performance. That's all Brando did. There's also, I think that it would be a different character, but in terms of bringing the cerebral,

really wiry aspect of this character, Marathon Man era Hoffman. Dustin Hoffman, right around that. I don't think he pulls off the opening scene in the driftwood. The guy's got to be handsome for that. What about like 2016 Leo? Like departed Leo? You know who I was thinking about?

Post-Revenant Leo, like right after. He's a little older, still handsome. I feel like if you want to do a modern-day person, you know who would be really good at this, who's really good at performing without talking is Lakeith. He's really great at like... That's a good one. Focused, kind of possessed.

You're trying to figure out what's going on with him. That's really good. I like it. Have five certain research. Noon took up bodybuilding to prepare physically for the part. Stayed in character at all times. I love when people do that.

Stayed away from the cast members. And the atmosphere in the set was tense because everybody was afraid to go near him because it was like this six foot five guy convincing himself he was a serial killer. So Michael Mann, already an intense set because he's a maniac. And now you have this guy who's like, stay away from me. I'm a serial killer set. Sounds like a hilarious set. Cox asked to audition with his back turn to the casting agent.

agents because he wanted them to hear the power of his voice. Michael Mann did the Michael Mann thing. No surprise. Spent all that time with the serial killer or with the FBI behavioral science unit, all that stuff. Sean, do you know how long Enda Gada-Divita is as a song? I want to say, want to guess? Can I guess nine minutes and 42 seconds?

What do you think, Chris? Nine minutes, yeah. 17 minutes and five seconds. Jesus. It's long. It came out in 19. the entire side of a record? Yeah, Iron Butterfly.

17 minutes, five seconds. So raising the question, how many times did the song play during that four hours when she's in there and she's looping over again. They couldn't get permission to shoot on an airplane.

So Michael Mann booked the airplane, got a lot of tickets, and they kind of guerrilla shot it on the airplane with some of the seats they had. And then they made the plane's passengers and crew mollified them with Manhunter crew jackets, none of which are available on eBay I looked.

The pool of blood forming around Nunes' character was corn syrup, but he was lying there so long he became stuck to the floor. Jesus. And was also convinced that he was a serial carer. He was, look at this fucking, get me off this fucking floor. Had to have been terrifying. William Peterson had trouble getting out of the character

after the movie, which we hear sometimes. And then they did the tattoos that they have in Red Dragon. I don't have to use him. Michael Mann said it seemed too corny. Yeah. But there's pictures of... Man putting the tattoos on. Of Noonan and Man and all that stuff.

So there you go. Apex Mountain Peterson. Movie Peterson, I'm going to say yes. I would say Peterson would be CSI. You know, Quentin Tarantino directing a CSI episode and like that being the biggest show on television. Tom Noonan, probably yes. It's just out there.

It's the biggest characters. I'm just grabbing it. It's out there. Michael Mann, no. Joe Allen, no. Fire corpses on rolling desk chairs, Apex? What a day for those guys, huh? Their draft stock went up in Manhunter.

When we finally go back to the office, I'd like to try that with a dummy, because we're going to have a lot of room in the Spotify offices to just roll dummies that are on fire down the campus. I'll alert HR on that one. Thanks. criminal profiling? I'm going to say no. Hmm.

So what is the Apex? I'd say CSIs. I mean, people, like, 25 million people. But they're doing, like, forensic, like, pathological,

like pathology stuff where they're putting together what happened based on, like, how somebody's body is. Like, I think, I mean...

I think... Then you got to go silent. Silence. That's what I was going to say. $250 million and a bunch of Oscars. Yeah. And it got a divita. I'm going to say yes.

Okay. Why not still live it on? When else is anyone ever talking about that song? Well, it's considered like one of the, I mean, it's one of the creation myths songs of heavy metal. So you could make the case that that's its apex? That when it was released, it basically inspired Black Sabbath and Metallica and all of these bands. So I don't, the very little, the little scene, Manhunter. An obscure serial killer drama from 1986 might not be Iron Butterflies, Apex.

Mount. Yeah, Iron Barlify Ply, like, sold out Wembley. But we're like, you guys are fucking losers. Being the last scene of Manhunter is as good as it gets for you. They were a one-hit wonder, though. I did some research on them because I want to see if they had any of their songs. They were one-hit wonders. Sprinting through a window, Apex Mountain, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I think Axel fully getting thrown out of a window is the Apex Mouta getting tossed, but jumping through a window, I'm probably going to go. Sprinting through the window. Graham. Sanabel Captiva, Florida, Apex Mountain?

For sure. It has to be. Yeah. I didn't even know what that place was. Cut off gray t-shirts? Pretty huge in the... CR is going to challenge that tonight. He's going to throw on six cut-off gray t-shirts and take a lot of selfies.

All right, pick a Nets. Let's just go here. How the fuck did he own this house? We were texting about this last night. It's just inexplicable. That's like, even in 1986, that's like a $4 million house. He's a fucking cop.

So there are beach communities in this country where it's like, you know, normal people live close to the beach, right? Like, it's not, like, not every single thing is Miami Beach or Malloo. I guess in the mid-80s, it's more conceivable. Maybe his wife had some money.

You think Molly's sitting on a family fortune? And that's why they have a boat. You know, and they're just thrown around, fuck you money at Publix, buying a bunch of coffee. Oh, by the way, I had Kim Greast and Apex Mountain.

The answer is yes, because she had Miami Vice. than this. I actually really liked her. She's great. I don't know why she didn't... I don't know what happened with her. I like her and Chud. You guys seen Chud? We would have had her and more stuff. Should they have cut the alternate ending that we all watched?

So, okay, help me understand the difference here. Do you know the specifics between the two ends? So he saves Joan Allen's character. It goes right to back to the beach and him being with his family again. it's almost like a different movie. When you know that that's not, the director's cut has a different ending.

When you watch this shot, it definitely feels like a note from the studio being like, we have to show that this guy recovered fully from this. Well, so for the people listening, the alternate ending does have the actual ending. It's just there's a scene between him hugging Joe and Allen and saying, I'm Will Graham.

And then the next scene is him showing up at the house of the guy, the single girl was watching this whole movie, the next family who's going to murder, Will Graham shows up at the house because he wants to see them. And they're kind of, at first they think he's an intruder. Then he's like, oh, you're the guy who saved us. Hey, thank you. And he's just super weird.

He's got a black guy. And he's just basically like, do you want to come in? No, I just wanted to see you. And then it goes to the beach. I actually think that worked. I think they should have kept it. I totally agree. I thought that was brilliant.

I thought that would have given us so much more understanding of the fact that for Will Graham to get out of the mentality of the serial killer is really hard for him, and that that was something that was, like, torturing him throughout this entire process. And it indicates that, like, there's a moment when he's standing in front of this couple who he has ostensibly saved where you're thinking to yourself, is he going to kill these people? Like, is he going to take over the mission of the Tooth Fairy? And it just makes the movie more complex. It's interesting. I think I would have liked that movie.

Yeah, I mean. Oh, God, Will Graham snapped. He's now the Tooth Fairy Jr. That's it. Any other picket nets, Chris? Yeah, I got one. Has Michael Mann ever been on a fucking first date? Like, we are now pretty deep into his career. And in multiple movies, absolutely brutal first dates. First of all, like, for as a dollar, I'd take in Joan Allen to go pet a tiger.

Neil and Neil being like, what are you, why are you so interested in what I'm reading what I do, you know, like, and his book about metals. And then when they do get along, he's like giving her this fucking weird soliloquy about algae in the water. What are the, so there's some other, let's go with this big romance. And then see, and what about this big romance and thief? So it's like every single time he hooks, like some guy hooks up with a girl of a Michael Man movie, it's like such a journey. I'm into it. Last of the Mohicans even gets a little that's right. He saves her life. And then they just like make out. It's just like, they never have like a normal first date. What about Colin Farrell and Gong Lee getting on this fucking cigarette boat and driving? Oh yeah,

they go to Cuba. Yeah. That's crazy. That's a good one. Yeah, they're never like, you want to go to Applebee's and have like an app plate. You know what I mean? Michael Man's first dates is an amazing podcast series. That would just be great. Each episode is the crazy first day in all this movies. You're a lovely lady, so I take you to a diner and I talked to about metals. Then we get the Learjet flight of Birmingham. We learned in the thief research that the, the, the, booth they shot the famous James Constein was where Michael Mann had stopped with his wife and they ended up getting married. So obviously that was such an awesome first date or whatever date for him that he's now looked at what's the flip side of a bad first date or I don't know.

I am a true blue kind of guy. Michael Man's first dates. I made $150 slacks. Coming up on Tuesday, the launch of Chris Ryan's new podcast, Michael Man's first. States. It's a Spotify original. And we just like make Hyphitz go on Michael Man for states. Hyphids, you have to take a girl to go pet a tiger. A sedated tiger. Next category, could this be remit as a 10 episode Netflix show?

Yeah, it was to some extent with Hannibal. Right. It was an NBC show. Yeah. I got kind of excited for the thought of somebody redoing Manhunter on like HBO Max or Netflix. Have you watched Clarice at all, Bill? I did not. Once I found out Lecter wasn't in it, I was out. It's like, figure it out.

If DC Comics and all of those places were able to figure out the superhero shit, we can figure out Hannibal Lecter and Clarice. What the fuck are we doing? Are we, but like, are we good? Like, I feel like we're good on Hannibal. You know, I feel like... Yeah, I'm good.

We've done enough. We've told a lot of stories. The likelihood of the TV series with Mads Miklsen being good was like one in 100 and it was good. Like, I think we can wrap it up now. We're good on Lecter stories. Probably in answerable questions.

What is life like if Brian Cox got the science of the lambs part? It's kind of like the Laramine-Tuncel trade for movies in the early 90s. Right, right. You mean like, does global warming stop? Like what potentially the butterfly effect? Well, does Brian Cox basically market correct that Anthony Hopkins at that point? Because you could argue Anthony Hopkins market-corrected Brian Cox. Is Anthony Hopkins the star of succession?

that's what I'm saying. It's a fucking sliding doors thing. Brian Cox definitely not on succession because he would have been too famous from Silence of the Lamps, he would run the Oscar. Or does the movie not... And is he in the bear movie?

But does the movie not work as well because it's Brian Cox and not Anthony Hopkins? Right. That's possible. Is he end up in the bed, is he in the edge with Alck Baldwin and the guy from Oz?

So is Hopkins a couple years older than Cox? It feels that way, right? I feel like they're around the same age. is Brian Cox and the father getting robbed of an Oscar this year. Let's not go there. He's amazing. Hopkins is amazing in the father.

Brian Cox is born in 46 and Hopkins is born in 37. So he's got almost a decade on it. Because I was going to say, it's hard from you imagine Hopkins in succession. He's old. He's old. Older dude. Well, on the other hand, that Succession guy is supposed to be super old. Yeah.

84? Any other in answerable questions for you guys? Did Will get paid by the FBI to come back? Yeah, they don't... In these movies, they never talk about salary and nobody seems interested in money. Oh, yeah. I'm going to do this.

It's got... I need 200K if you're getting me for a month. I mean, this is really the worst job in the universe, right? It's just to like sit in the disgusting pits of hell with like the most like evil people. Yeah. Yeah, spend all your time looking at photos of horrifying murder. But you know, back then it's like,

maybe he got paid like 72,000, but he had like a company car, you know? Like it was just like, there were some perks. You think he had a sob? Yeah. My only other unanswerable question is, did you guys think that, um, this is really more of an observation, the home movies are really creepy. Like the home, I think because of the way that we see them in them in Manhunter, they're weird, but like, like, who's filming one of them?

Because like, it's all the family is in it. But like, it's just like this like, oh, it's like a made. Yeah, it's really strange, but like those home movies are very strange. I don't really feel like that was how people were really like, I just got a camcorder. Say hi into the camera for two seconds. Would you rather get knife to death right away with a broken piece of mirror or you have to listen to Enigata de Vita for like five straight hours,

but then you get rescued by Will Graham? Would you rather just get murdered right away? I have some questions about the mirror. So I feel like Dollar Hodge punches the mirror. and then he gets a piece of glass from the mirror. But his hand's fine. And then he goes to the sink and he breaks the glass to get another smaller piece of glass. And then he doesn't do anything with it.

And then it feels like 20 minutes go by, but he's still holding the piece of glass like to Joan Allen's face. And you think he's going to do something, but he never does. Like what is Dollar High doing there? There's some time continuity stuff because they hop on a plane. He's already broken the glass. And he's just, I guess, basically deciding whether to kill or not. Did you guys also get confused about, like, are they in Washington or Atlanta or Chicago at various points? Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to know.

Okay. That's confusing. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I would like the note that he makes Freddie Reed. And then at the end of the season, when the Nets win the championship, I will read that note about James Harden. What do you have, Sean? Can I get that house in Captiva? Yeah, it's great.

Ken, it's eligible. I have the giant piece of driftwood that they sit on in the opening scene. It would be fucking cool. Just put that in the backyard. What is that? I ever seen Manhunter? It's the driftwood from the beginning.

Who in the movie? That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard. Who in the movie? That's the driftwood from Manhattan. Man. I have man. Man. He directs the show.

movie. We didn't do best quote, which I only wanted to mention just because of when Will Graham says, we tried sodium amatol on him three years ago to find where he buried a Princeton student and he gave him the recipe for potato chip dip. And then all the other best quotes are just anytime Farina opens his mouth. Yeah, the Farina Sanz. He's a special one. I like also all the crazy dollar hide, you know, you owe me awe. There's a couple of really good dollar hide lines. He really dials it up in the scene with Freddie. He has some good ones in there. I was going to read the letter at the start of the podcast, but it's actually too creepy. All right. Well, we did The Insider for Rewatchables 99 on Luminary. So now we only have, unless we could do a

Taylor Swift and just redo the insider of this podcast. Every single man. Yeah. Just Yeah, just do we just do the exact same podcast we did Unluminary, but we change our voices slightly. And then Ali and Black Cat and then public enemies. I think Ali is definitely a rewatchable.

I agree. Ali is like worthy of a conversation. Even if it's an imperfect movie, there's so much to talk about. Yeah, if we ever do, especially if we bring back a lot of rewatchables at any point. The first eight minutes of Ali

are flat out, incredible. Among the best things he's ever done The Sam Cook opening of Ali is unbelievable. It's funny. I look at Ali now and I think like that's so clearly an eight episode splashy Apple project where he could have done all the stuff he wanted to do instead of like just trying to condense it into this two-hour movies set with over a 10 year period where I, I, it was just too ambitious. Yeah. We should do that one.

All right. We'll do that one. Michael Mann. The star of the rewatchables. Chris Ryan, Sean Fennacy. great to see you guys as always. We'll see you next time. That's it for the rewatchables. We have a good one next week. It's time to get out of the action genre sphere for one week here. So we're going to do Mrs. Doubtfire next week, which is available all over the place.

It made the second most money of any movie in 1993. It was an absolute monster and was in the news lately. So we'll be doing that one. See you.