The Rewatchables - ‘Margin Call’ With Bill Simmons, Ryen Russillo, and Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Ryen Russillo, and Brian Koppelman are left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of capitalism after they rewatch the 2011 financial drama ‘Margin Call’ starring Zachary Quinto, Kevin Spacey, Paul Bettany, and Jeremy Irons. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week. You hear from me, Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazding, Lambrey, Van Lathan, June Lippman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes. Airplane takes. Oh, yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly.

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem?

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood?

Is this table wood? I think it's lamated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana. Pick up fees may apply.

Coming up, Ryan Rosillo is here. We don't bring him on. He's too powerful. He's too potent. People still talking about his performance on The Town podcast. It was like four years ago. It was like your version of John Cazale and Godfather 2 or something. It's just in the ether.

And then Brian Coppulman, our friend who demanded we do this movie, he's going to explain why after. It's coming. Margin Call. It's next. Don't miss Margin Call. Is that figure right? The best Wall Street movie ever made.

You cannot be doing what you're thinking of doing. Be first, be smarter, or cheat. Margin Call. Own it today. All right, Rosillo and Coppola are here. There are three ways to make a living in this business. Be first, be smarter or cheat. Coppola, you demanded we did this movie.

You said you've watched this movie more than any movie of the last 15 years. Why? Yeah, so 2011 it comes out. So what is it, 12 years? Yeah, in the... In the 11 years since, I guess, this is definitely the movie I've watched the most. Well, I think it's a bunch of different things.

I mean, I'll tell you, but I'm curious, what do you dig about it? Simmons, what do you dig about it? I dig that it's more of a horror movie than a drama. But it's one of those. It hits that rare zone, and it's a little bit of a dark comedy, too. But it's really a horror movie. It's a thriller, but it's really a horror movie. That's what I like the most.

Yeah, right. It's the modern, very bad things. Like, maybe like, it's like very bad things. for the generation that exists now on on on on wall street and and yeah it's a most of the characters in it maybe there are two who aren't could probably would fail the sociopath check test right yeah i mean most blatantly with set right uh and it's funny that then he went on to you know play something like that later rusillo what do you love about it then i'll tell you what what it is that makes it so fucking incredible to me. They're no heroes.

You're rooting for no one. And I think when you're explaining a story that way, you know, one of the rules that would pop up, you'd be like, well, who am I rooting for? You're like, you're not rooting for anybody. Like, everybody exposes themselves. But I also think, as you mentioned, you know, you guys agreeing about it being a horror movie, I always think of that liar's poker effect from Michael Lewis where he writes this book about no one really knows what the hell's going on.

We're all kind of full of shit. I want to get out of the business. And instead, Solomon Brothers got more applications than they ever had before after that. So I think people watch this movie and most of us would be like, oh, my God, what a racket. And I think there's a lot of other people who are like, wait, it's just cyclical and everything sort of works out. I'm in. It's also a movie about very smart people who understand what it is to have a moral center

and choose to ignore that moral center. and people who saw a calamity coming, didn't warn other people, made their own escape, and in fact, their escape triggered the calamity sooner and in a bigger way. And by dint of the fact that they're smart and they're good looking and they talk in a clever way, people around them in the world of the movie mostly like them. and none of them take personally, except for one of them really, the horrible mistreatment by everybody else. But it's also fucking hilarious somehow. And I think it's so true to what happened. Look, I think that I love Michael Lewis. I'm a gigantic Michael Lewis fan. I love the book,

The Big Short as a book. But the movie The Big Short, to me, doesn't really equal this film in letting us understand the psychology of the people who really like loose this thing on the world. Also, as a filmmaker, it is J.HC. Chandor made a movie in very few days with a shoestring budget that has some of the best acting performances. every single person to me in the movie destroys it, crushes it. And I think it's career best for some of these people. And so, you know, I'd also make the argument

that maybe the Zach Kinto character and Tucci's character have the possibility of redemption in the future. They're not evil. And that's fascinating too, because I can root for them to save their souls. do you guys not find that you can root for those two characters to save their souls? I think Tucci's gone.

Zach Kinto feels like there's a chance. I think Penn Badgley there feels like there might be a chance too. The younger people you feel like they might be able to get out of it. Yeah, but his head is already like he's evil though because it's just so funny. He's the worst person in it, I think. Yeah. I know, but he's young. I just feel like young people, they can always be redeemed somehow.

I think when you're a Stanley Tucci's age, you are who you are at that point. Yeah, but one of the many, I mean, there's a million brilliant, lines in this. But just by having Penn Bagley ask if Tucci's house is paid for so that then when they give the speech to each other and Will's like, you know,

and then Tucci goes in because that's the other part of this is that ultimately everybody gives in. Right? The last moment when Bettene, when Paul Bettney, who clearly does have empathy for Tucci can't help himself. He turns around and he goes, nice house. I hope you're, you know, the last line he says to him when he's

standing by the car. It's so it's it's just so deeply fucked up yeah i think that pen badgerly's character is the worst you know asking how much everybody's making but but also don't you think um in a way one of the things that sums the whole thing up like that just stands in for the whole movie is when simon baker is shaving and he just won't even like once he the guy knows he's being fired that guy's dead to him all red. Doesn't not, he won't waste a second of sympathy, empathy, understanding. He won't even pat him on the shoulder. Nothing for the weakness of crying in the bathroom and asking if he's getting fired or telling he's getting fired. It's so puts on its feet the whole fucking ethos

of like Wall Street, right, in a way, right in that moment. It's just like, yeah, you're already, I've made that trade. You don't exist to me anymore because I made that fucking trade. You're gone. And he just sits there looking at his handsome face shaving. So fucked up. He's so much worse than pen badgill to me. I, Irons is the worst character in this movie, in my opinion. But I think the Simon Baker characters, he's just, there is no, he doesn't have internal organs. He's just awful. See, I always took the pen badgely character as all of these guys were like him at some point during whatever journey they were on. And then you could kind of go in all these different directions. But to me, he's like the most blank slate in a way. It comes in super

ambitious. He just wants to make a killing. He's obsessed with what things cost and what people make. And I don't know how he is going to turn out 20 years from now. The Simon Baker character, those are the people that make it. Right? As the bodies are just falling around them, he's shaven in the bathroom. Who do you think is the worst character, Rosilla? Well, I think it's funny that you guys picked Jeremy Irons, John. I didn't say that. Oh, you didn't? That he's the worst character.

Bill said it. I'm just listening. I haven't weighed in yet. He's in charge, so you can argue that he's the worst, but it's also hard because he's my favorite character. No, I'm saying he's about the worst human being, not the worst character. I'm talking to human beings. Yeah.

Right. I know what you're saying there. I just liked it even when you think someone is going, like, is there's some redeeming quality and I wouldn't blame any of them. I don't blame Spacey for making his decision. I don't blame Tucci for making his decision. I don't blame Baker, you know, his character's name is Sam in that. Like I don't, I that's this is exactly how it works. I'm not saying it's right, but it's what everybody would be. Hey, guess what? Your options are going to be worthless if you don't play ball and you've got a family. And you've got all these different things. So I mean, everyone is bad. It feels like everyone is bad

because they make these decisions, but these are the decisions people usually would make. And maybe Seth is just Penn Badgley's character. Maybe Seth is just, maybe Seth's just giving voice to what maybe these other characters would have, to your point, Bill, like would have thought or would have said. But the way he's constantly just asking about himself and trying to measure himself and the money to me makes him the next generation

in a way he's the T-5,000 of the, these guys and he's going to take these lessons and become colder. Because you could see he's going to become, he doesn't, he doesn't look at Simon Baker with hatred. He looks at Simon Baker with awe. Like, he wants to be Simon Baker shaving himself, you know, Jared. He wants to be Jared, right? And so, so for me, he's, he also doesn't say, he's not, you know, as a character like Bettney, who clearly does career best work here, like is the most compelling, fascinating, charismatic human being in this movie. To me, that Bettney's character...

Will, right? Yeah, well. Oh, yeah, Will. Paul Bettany, who plays Will. By dint of the fact that he's hilarious and honest about who he is and never forgets that he's playing this game. I don't know in a way he becomes like my favorite

he's my favorite too I think I thought he was really good in Match Point with no not Match Point what was the he was in one of those tennis movies was it Wimbledon

you know I never saw that movie he was in he was a tennis Pirates and Beautiful Mind obviously he's great and beautiful you know he's great and beautiful mind and Tucci is incredible yeah well you mentioned the cast I think that's one of the things

why this movie is so rewatchable everybody's throwing like 98 miles an hour. There's no weak link. Even to be more who's basically playing the lady from Disclosure 15 years later after a couple of firings and she's got some business miles on her and she's seen some things, but she still kind of knows how to play a little bit of chess. I even think she's good and it's pretty understated performance. There's not one performance I don't like in this. And there's, what are there, nine people that have speaking characters if you include, or speaking parts that include the lawyer. And there's nobody.

you would be like, ah, I wish that person wasn't in it. Even for like the recasting couch, I couldn't even come up with really an answer for, oh, if you switch this person out for this person, it would be way better. I like movies that catch people at awesome points of their career and they're also thrown 98 miles an hour. Who's your favorite performance, Priscilla?

Oh, it's Jeremy Irons, it's John, okay? Because you're 47 minutes into the movie, and this is what I love. Like, you know how sometimes, You know, you're watching it, whether it's a pilot or it's the very beginning of the movie. And it'll be like, you were an all-American, man. You could have been in the NFL if it weren't for Afghanistan, but the sawmills closed. Your wife left you, but I've known you since I was six.

You're like, all right, relax. Relax on the intro of the information of this character that I'm going to take this ride with for however many seasons or two hours or whatever. And they go like 47 minutes in the movie. And you're still not 100% sure what exactly the problem is. you know there's a problem. It's always a little difficult explaining this stuff. Brian can speak to this, you know, as well as anybody, considering billions and all the different moving parts of trying to make sure the audience can still understand what it is

the hell that you're doing because, you know, just so many of us don't quite get it. And Irons plays it perfectly and being like, explain it to me in the most simple way possible because that's who I am. I'm not here because I'm smart. I'm here because I can tell. And that scene is my favorite scene. And when he goes to Spacey and says, as they're trying to figure out what they're going to do, it's like, do we sell our position?

All right. And Irons has already made up his mind. He already knows what he's doing before the helicopter landed. And when he says to Spacey, if I made you, how would you do it? And it's like, like we're not, this isn't a negotiation. We're just talking out loud. So I love that he's the most powerful, but he presents himself as the most normal. But he had clearly already made up his mind reinforcing why he was in that chair in the first place. That's so funny. I do not. See, I think he never like the most powerful of those people. I don't think there's one second that he's letting anyone believe he's not the smartest. Or what a trick that is to go, listen, I'm not the smartest guy. When you're the guy flying it on the, it's a move. That's what I'm saying. You've seen that move. Skipper used to do that at ESPN. Oh, yeah, I'm from North Carolina. I don't explain it to me. It's like, okay. That's always a red flag when somebody says that.

to move. And I think all those people in that room understood that, look, he choppers in. I also love the fact that he and Simon Baker, the way that they're fully put, like the tie is right and the suit is right. And these guys are presenting themselves as professionals at every minute, which is such a part of the con of Wall Street in general. Sam lets himself be more, you know, rumpled. Spacey, and just when we're talking about good people, bad people, and how they're, why J.C. Chandor is such a gifted writer and director, you know, that moment with Kinto and Spacey that sets up the end of the very end of the movie, when he asks about his son, and the way Spacey answers that, and the interplay between them, you understand.

that this guy has sacrificed every bit of his humanity for his job for 30 years. And to the point that in the whole drama, he never once thought of his kid who's going to get fucked by this across town. And Zach Kinto goes, he's nice, you know, he's a nice person. And space goes, yeah, well, he's got that. And you, you're like, normally, if someone says to a dad, I mean, Bill, you know, you're, you're, your kid, and with no reason to, like, your kid's very nice, you're like, oh, what a great thing to say about it.

I'm so proud of that fact. And you can tell that to Spacey, it's almost a defect that the kid's nice or that that's all the kid is. And I found that moment to be incredibly intense and every time I see it, it's kind of crushing, you know? And it makes the argument that Sam might be the worst fucking dude in a weird way because he knows better at every turn.

He's the only guy where you know he knows better at every turn and he's just taking the money because he's, spent at all, you know. Is everybody struggling with the decision that they all predictably make, the only part of the movie where I was like, would a bank care this much internally? Would there be this much debate? Would there be this much conflict? Especially when you're looking at somebody like Spacey's character, which is kind

of the financial game of whether you're an investor or somebody who works at one of these places, where you're hoping when your time is up that you're avoiding this. I mean, because this can wipe out everything. It can wipe out anything for anyone just to. having put in their retirement together. Think about people that, you know, had different kind of... What do you mean would they debate it? Wait, what do you mean would they debate it? Would there have been this much moral dilemma in a real financial institution? I think it's such a short window at time because it's the movie, but you're really talking like,

what is this? Three hours in the middle of the night, four hours when they're actually like debating. I think I would look at it like this. Sam presents it as a moral dilemma, but it's a career dilemma. It's he's dare, he's dare, destroying the thing that feeds them. He's going to, every single person on his floor, those products that those people sold, those disappear and they're gone forever. And those people are all out of a job. And then the people, what Jeremy Irons knows, and this is one of the most significant moments

when he goes, you let me worry about that. What John knows is, don't worry, in six months or a year, greed will get the best of everybody again, and I'm back in business and everyone will forget the fact that I fucked them over. Spacey is worried not about whether he's a good person to do this. What he's worried about is when he keeps saying at what cost, I don't interpret that to mean at what moral cost. I interpret that to mean if we put these toxic assets without and we just dump them on everybody else,

we're never going to have people to be able to do business with us again because we'll have fucked them over and they will know we're the scumbags. And Jeremy Irons does you care. Ryan is like, yeah, yeah, but what you don't understand. And it's when Bettney goes, they don't lose money. Like, this is what's so dark and fucked up is the, yeah, they're presenting it

in a way where you could see it as moral. And it's really just like Spacey's character doesn't want, and I think the way they're tipping it off right from the beginning is, you know, he's sitting there and you see at the beginning. We're down to 33 people. It's miserable.

He doesn't think there's any hope. But he claps it out when he walks out there, which is one of the greatest moments in the movie. One of my favorite moments in a movie in a long time. What an incredible actor's choice. And it shows you that he will put his own principles and his own sense of the world just behind him instantly to keep making dough. I mean, that's how I interpret it.

I'm just one guy in this, but that's how I interpret it. One of the things I love about the iron speech at the end, it reminds me like when Riscilla and I, when we talk about some of the NBA stuff sometimes, how things are cyclical, right? When Minnesota, the new owners took over and like, oh, here we go. Here comes a dumb, splashy trade. where they try to make some noise and then they go and they trade everything

for Rue de Gaubert. When Irons is going through, he does the thing, it's certainly no different today than it's ever been and he just starts listing the years. It's like 1637, 1797, 1797, and he rips off these 10 different cycles

and he goes, 1987, Jesus, didn't that fuck me up good? 92, 97, 2000. You just think like, how do we not realize that this is going to happen over and over again?

Ricillo, did you, you'd like to deep dive shit? Did you ever do like a full-fledged 2008, read every book? Yeah, I've read all that. You did that, right? Yeah, I mean, that's what I had for, and I know we'll get to the categories later, but what's aged the best is exactly what both of you were talking about, the cyclical nature, which is what Irons is telling you and why he's so confident. It's like, no, no, no.

You can have your hangups, but like, this is actually how it works. like the next bad things coming in the movie and in real life. Like it's happening. And that's why that final scene with Spacey is part of that comedy that you guys are touching on because Iron just sitting there with a steak by himself, top floor, great view. Spacey sits down and he's serious. He goes, you know, I'm starting to feel better about how everything happened.

Like it's an hour after the bell is closed. And he's presenting like, you know, this wasn't that bad. What we did today wasn't, I'm feeling better about everything. Have a seat. Grab a soda water. And also, you know, Sam is all doughy and puffy and clearly like irons. It's so clear. Irons hasn't eaten.

I mean, he hasn't eaten a thing until the bell closed. He's got Simmons post-2014 discipline on the diet. And, you know, he's just not eating until like the end. Because like, oh, no, we got to finish this mission. And then he's really fucking like carnivorously enjoying it and letting his body fill up with the protein and ready to go kill again. How did this affect billions or did it? I think, look, the other, as I've told you, like Wolf of Wall Street's the other movie I've

probably watched the most in a way and both, I think, understanding the psychology of a certain, even though Wolf's about a guy much less successful than any of these people. I think neither thing directly affected billions in that. in story or anything like that. But in a way, I think margin call may be reaffirmed that the way Dave and I thought about these people as we'd met them was pretty much like the way a lot of them are. And that JC saw it that way as well was, yeah, really, I think probably cool to us. obviously hedge fund's different than an institutional bank.

And I think it definitely was something that made doing this hedge fund story make more sense as opposed to trying to do a story about a bank because J.C. done it so well. I would say that if you borrowed anything, it would be this movie doesn't speak down to the viewer. It's like you either catch up or watch it a second time and you'll figure it out the second time. Oh, super inspiring. It's a great point, dude. It's a great point. super inspiring in that way, that he just told his fucking story and was willing

to tell it and not overly explained. Look, I think that and the speed, I'd say, I didn't think about this till now, but I'm sure that the speed of the movie, meaning how fast they talk, also gave us confident,

even though we've always done, like if you know all our stuff, like we've always done that, but the way J.C. was willing to do it in this terrain, I'm sure it was part of it, which is you don't stop, you don't slow down, you just fucking go. And also, like, as we're talking about this as heavy as it is, if you haven't seen it and you're listening to this, the movie's hilarious. It is darkly hilarious. And, like, worth watching for the absurdity and the kind of, like, these people are carnivores

when it comes to money. They're just, they just need it and want it and we'll fucking do anything for it, you know. I was thinking there's a certain type of, and I really think it's this century, and maybe it's even the last 15 years of, there's a certain type of movie. It's like an office thriller almost. We have this.

I think Michael Clayton. Shattered glass, which I think is really good, I think is like that, where it's just, it moves a little bit differently with a different pace and it feels like a thriller, but it's not like there's chase scenes,

anything like that, money balls like that, high-flying bird, that weird Soderberg movie about the basketball agent, the assistant's another one, but it does feel like a relatively modern thing. There's another good one, if you like this movie that I really, really like. It's not as good as margin call, but really good is the company men, which is Affleck and Chris Cooper and Kevin Costner and John Wells made that film. And that company men's like this too, and I think really good, like really good.

What's, Riscilla, what's your favorite out of all the office thrillers? Are you a Michael Clayton guy? No, I love Michael Clayton. I'll admit, like the first time through, I was like, what the hell's happening here? You know? Yeah. Because it was like, all right, this guy's like, you couldn't know what to believe necessarily with the guy that Clayton was trying to save.

I mean, I don't know if the big short counts in this. I don't know if Wolfel Wall Street because, you know, it reminds me a little bit of when they do the penthouse closing scene with irons. and Spacey. The shot is similar when it's the first time with DeCaprio and McConaughey. And that McConaughey scene where the best way to not tack down to the audience is kind of explain it where he's like, it's all fake. It's a who he goes, you know, he goes, if you make your guy and a little bit of money and then

he takes it out, that's a problem because now it's real. Yeah. And we can't leave the best idea. We can't leave out boiler room either, you know, because boiler room really informed Wolf Wall Street because boiler room was the fictional version of Jordan. story and Ben Younger did do it first. Ben Younger, you know, Oliver Stone did it first, but Ben Younger went after this in a way with, again, like limited resources and, you know.

I wish there were more of these. It feels like we're about 10 shy of the number we should have been at when you consider how important Wall Street is just in life. You know, we try to put it on TV every Sunday night for you, Bill, best we can, you know, little movie every Sunday. There's going to be some Reddit thread script that's been out there. on on the GameStop stuff. It's happening.

You imagine there's probably some kind of Bitcoin scam deal that's out there. But again, these are not easy executions. Like again, with the big short, you know, McKay has talked about it. Like people are you nuts? Like you read this book and then this is going to work. And, you know, a lot of people, it's just different. Because, you know, if you explain margin call and say, hey, it's a lot of characters.

It's about the financial crisis. It takes over. It's a space of 24 hours. I don't know if that's the quickest. elevator pitch. Or the most convincing unless your resume is incredible. Yeah, and everybody sucks.

You'll have no heroes. You won't root for anyone. But what's fascinating about this movie indifferent from those other things than all the other things we mentioned pretty much, except Big Short, is these people, by the laws of our land,

are not criminals. And yet, they are. And that is also like, this is a crime movie with no prosecutable crime in it. None of these people went to jail after this happened in real life. They just didn't go to jail.

You know, Jordan went to jail. Like, those guys went to jail in Wolf. That's about criminals. This, there's not, you know, Michael Clayton has murder in it. What's such a hard thing to pull off is, yeah, you hear about drugs in this movie, but nobody's doing blow in this film. Nobody's assaulting anyone. Nobody's sexually assaulting anyone.

Like, this movie is, plays like a crime thriller, but there isn't a crime. And Kinto, being at the center of it, like, you can't write off what an incredible thing Zach Kinto does in this movie. To play somebody that smart and a decent, you know, he is clearly wrestling with this. That character is clearly conflicted. He's conflicted. He's loyal, right? Nobody else is.

He over and over says, of course, building off of Mr. Dale's work. Like, he is trying to stay loyal to this guy that gave him his shot. And yet, he kind of is the person who rings the bell that starts the destruction of the financial world. It's so textured. It's just really fucking amazingly textured. Let's take a break. There's one more topic I want to hit before we hit the categories. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

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Save at Whole Foods Market. One more topic I was thinking about watching this again last night, whether this would have been a TV series in 2022. And I saw it and I looked at all the 2011 movies. And I realized this was like the pre, this was kind of the end of the pre streaming era. Some of the movies that came out there are margin call, money ball, limitless, contagion, the odds of march, drive, warrior, young adult, win-win, blue Valentine, and the company men. I'm not sure any of them get made in 2022. Or if they get made, they're pitched as a TV series, and that is how they get made. I don't think any of those, maybe with the exception of limitless, but I also think limitless just would have been a TV series.

and eventually it was anyway. I just think this is like the end of an air and what's interesting. I remember this because I saw this. I rented it video on demand. I was home. And I was like, wow, that movie's out in the theater and I can rent it.

This is amazing. This actually was the first movie that released in the theater but also did VOD at the same time. It made 5.4 million in ticket sales, but it made 10 million in video and demand sales. And it set off the era that we're in now where, you know, some of these indie movies,

they'll try to release them VOD expensive and they'll also be in the theater. But I do feel like there's some sort of end of the air. Do you see that, Riscilla? Like, there's some sort of end of the era with this, 2011. And then we start moving into House of Cards and now we're making TV series as much as we're making movies.

I think Brian should answer this question before I should. Okay, you answer it, Brian. Yeah, you know, well, I think what you said is true that unless there were huge movie stars, in them or you found a way to make them for nothing. It would be hard to get them made. I don't think it would be impossible. Like this cast, you probably would have had to put Clooney in the Jeremy Irons role

and then it gets made now as a feature. But otherwise, I think you're right. I hadn't thought about the era thing. I do remember being on video on demand as well as in theaters. I loved it. I remember being really skeptical about it because it felt like my and Levine's kitchen in a way

that someone would do this kind of thing and then I remember watching it and just being just completely fucking blown. I just became such a big JC fan and I went and saw all is lost like the day it came out and I watched the most violent year the moment it was available.

Like that guy became one of my favorite filmmakers instantly. Yeah. Limitless gets made because it's a big conval. concept movie. Right. You know, and especially Bradley Cooper now is a big star. Well, this was produced by Zachary Quinto's, Zachary Kinto's production company. Yeah. And it was pretty hard to get made. And they had, they basically, you mentioned it

earlier, they made it in 17 days. And they had this whole work visa thing with Jeremy Irons where they couldn't get them a work visa. I'll go into it later in the half a certain research. But they had to cram all of the scenes in the space of three days. And I actually think it helps the movie because everybody looks haggard because they're doing these 20, you know, 20-hour shoots and he's doing all the scenes. So it actually, I think, is reflected in the performances. You know what's amazing is that so I, J.C. wrote me this morning. I asked him just one or two questions. And also Billy said he really likes listening to your take on his stuff always.

Oh, good. I love Triple Threat. Triple Threat is great. He loves your taking a stuff. but he said that he wrote the script basically in four straight days and never edited the scenes afterwards, really.

Oh my God. He said he'd had it in his... So he's going to go take a walk. He said he'd had it in his head for like a long time. Like the ideas of it. That's fucking crazy. Four days? What's the fastest script you ever wrote?

No. Three months... Like to really... Rounders was... Rounders was three and a half months for the first draft after we'd outlined it and stuff. And that was bad, you know, we were just writing two hours a day. It's hard to do. I mean, TV, like episodes of billions, I've written in, Dave and I've written episodes of

billions in two days, three days, because we know who the characters are and we know how they talk. But no, here's, here's, he said he wrote that and he said he said, almost no editing to any, any scenes. And that's just amazing to me. I'm sure he added stuff. And, like, you know, I know that Spacey and he found the clapping thing like on the day. But that speech, I got the script.

And that speech is just exactly the way Spacey does it. Now, clap it up and all that stuff. That's what Kevin Spacey brought to it as an actor, you know. And obviously, J.C. dug it on the day and they went with it. But writing the thing in four days and shooting it in 17, it makes sense to me that something's either going to be incredible or horrible if that's the way it shows off, you know? Yeah. Hey, wait, so it took him four days, and I looked it up a little on JC too, his father's investment banker. Did, do you know, I'm asking a question that I have no idea if you know the answer to. Was he having his father, like, double check kind of the story arc of how

that would work out, or did he actually work in the field at some point to understand? He knew people around it and around the field, and, um, and he said that the Tucci and Kinto characters were inspired by a friend of his, who was a grad student at MIT in any. engineering, but got roped into the financial sector by a huge signing bonus when he graduated from MIT. I think he was around it. I mean, I know just the way you just vet it out with people. Like, you end up having people that you can run this stuff by. Well, it said in the research, it said he had made a bunch of real estate investments in New York City, and that's what got him kind of interested in this world, plus the son of an investment banker. So he had a

couple different things, at least to get the brain going, and then you just start doing the research, you start talking to people and all that stuff. This movie got nominated for Best Original Screenplay, which I'd forgotten. This movie had a $3.5 million dollar budget made $19 million. Our guy, Roger Ebert, three and a half stars, said, excellent cast can make financial talking and compelling dialogue. He said there's no larger sense of the public good. and just keeps going. He loved this. I thought it was interesting. It had a Netflix run, and it's still on Netflix. But there was a time when it was Netflix main screen for a while.

And I don't know if it was my preferences where the algorithm's like, dude, you know you like this movie, you should click on this, or whether Netflix gave it a run. But I do feel like this became a way bigger movie after 2011. Rasella, don't you think this movie's bigger now than it? I don't feel like this movie was a thing. thing when it came out. No, I didn't feel like a thing. And maybe I, you know, I just missed it. You know, you kind of think back like, where I was at. I remember the artist was the big film that

year too. And then 2011 was a massive, massive film year when I went because I was going back and looking at all the nominations for everything and this. And I feel like I missed it when I know that I like these movies. Because I mean, the company man is up there. Ben Affleck's wife kills me in that movie though, even though she's right about everything. But like, hey, I'm out of work and you want me to sell my Porsche and I'm a deadbeat at the golf course. And you want me to list the house. Although Affleck's Kid has probably one of the best jumpers I've ever seen in a movie or TV, which is completely, maybe we'll do that a different time.

Sure. This is definitely a movie that got lost, and then when people found it, they were like, why wasn't this a bigger deal? As opposed to so many of the other movies you do on this podcast. I got a good joke. I mean,

I got a pretty buttery jumper, to be honest, I got to go look. Yeah, I got to go sick. Yeah, but if you put yourself, have we seen it?

He did a TikTok recently, and I got to say it, it was like one of those old school 70s jumpers. Not a lot of air on the jumper, but just like quick release, boom. A little bit of a line drive. I liked it. No, Affleck's kid, though,

next time you see company men, I'm serious, it's nice. Wonder what happened to that kid. I love that they made sure to make the kid be good. That's great. I love that. I hate when someone in a movie

who's supposed to be good at sports isn't drives me insane. Which is kind of the irony of Affleck as the dad, because he is not, even though we all love him, he's not the most athletic guy. I just picture that that kid in the sequel goes to BC,

gets kicked out, is at Fitchburg. Then he goes to therapy. Let me just say, Matt's a good athlete. Matt's a good athlete. Matt's a good athlete. But Matt can throw and catch

and shoot a basketball. Matt can play sports. I like the Fitchburg call, Riscilla. Categories, most rewatchable scene. I tried to narrow it down. Are you kidding? Brian, when you got the list of the categories, you go, wait,

are we doing this in a month or today? No, no, we're going to zoom through. I'm ready for Bill to do it. I'm so ready. Just get in the car with me. We'll have a nice little drive here. Most we're watchable scene. Eric Dale gets laid off.

Bettney says goodbye. Shoulder slap. Gives him the zip drive. Be careful. That's just a great five minutes. I was just in the middle of a lot of shit right here that I think somebody needs to take a look at. Eric, listen. They're telling us everybody needs to get out of here.

Just leave this stuff. And while we appreciate your concern. this is not your problem anymore. My favorite part is the Bettney's shoulder slap, though. It's such that douche. Hey man, hang in there and he just hits the shoulder. It's an incredible moment. Are you being friendly or is this adversarial?

What is this? Who wants to get slapped on the shoulder? I liked all that stuff. The Betney explaining the model to Spacey after Kinto and Badgley have kind of summoned them in. And Spacey slowly realizing what, it means. Wait a minute, what am I looking at it? Looking at this figure here. Whoa, is that? Yeah, and that would not be a bad day

for us, historically speaking. Is that figure right? I don't know, I can't be sure. Where's Eric Dale? We shut his phone off. Of course we do. Yeah, so I called his wife who says he's not home. Yeah, he's probably crying some fucking beer son. Yeah, it was. Where's the kid that did this? I sent him out looking for Eric. You think he knows he knows he's done? I don't know. What do I know? Get him back here. Get him back here. and we can get into Kevin Spacey later, but he's really good in this movie. And just everything he does in that scene is really high level.

All right, let's talk about the balcony scene. Yes. Not today. I mean, that's the scene. Right, that's the, yeah, that's the scene. This is probably the best bettney scene of his career is on the balcony. He's all the sudden sitting on the balcony and they're all like, is this fucking guy going to jump?

And he tells them, you know, the feeling that people experience when they stand on the edge like this isn't the fear of falling. It's the fear that they might jump. And I almost like want to pause the movie. It's like, is that, that is true? Wait a second. You're right. That I've never heard anyone summarize that movie.

And then he does the whole how much money he has left after taxes. How did you spend it all? That was quite quickly. You know, you learn to spend what's in your pocket. Two and a half an hour and goes quickly. All right, let's see. So the tax man takes half up front. So you're left with one and a quarter.

My mortgage takes another 300 grand. I sent 150 home for my parents, you know, keep them going. So what's that? 800. All right, 800. Spent 150 on a car. About 75 on restaurants, probably 50 on clothes. I put 400 away for a rainy day.

That's smart. Yeah, as it turns out, because it looks like the storm's coming. Still got 125. Yeah, well, I did spend $76,520 on hookers, booze, and dances, but mainly hookers. 765? It's just, it's, it's out of control. Yet he sends 150 home to his parents just to keep him going. Yeah, that was nice.

Okay, I want to jump in here only because there's a dynamic here that I'll share with you. My first job at AA baseball, I made 12 grand. I was told I'd make 30. So 18 in commissions after a week. I was like, this math is so off. There's no way this is true. And the guy's just sort of shrugged at me. Like too late now, you live in Trenton, motherfucker.

Right. So that was a good time. And then when I ended up at the zone, local radio, Boston, five days a week, 25K. And I will never forget how dumb I was. This is how dumb I was. Because he's like, your paycheck's going to be a thousand bucks. And I thought paychecks came every week.

It was every two weeks. So I'm like 50. All right. Pay some bills. maybe get some nice button downs. And they're like, Dickhead, you get paid every two weeks. So I was like, oh, I'm making $25,000. There was a guy there that then took me and like another board op along for his financial ride,

just like Will does in this scene. And he was telling us how $150,000 actually goes pretty quickly, while I'm stealing leftover food from Bertucci's that Eddie Aalman would have delivered to the studio, so I could eat dinner that night. And the dynamic was very different. Because as soon as the guy explaining how 150 grand went pretty fast to me and another guy that were basically a level above food stamps, we're like, fuck that guy. Where when Will does this speech, they're energized. They're motivated.

Like Penn Bagley's like, yes, I want to waste 75,000 on hookers, booze, and dancers. So there's no animosity because they know what they've signed up for in that world where normally that speech would be a total turnoff to anybody in the workforce. it's really great and pen badgely you see when that that strip joint scene where they're just at the strip joint because that's what kind of you're supposed to do with the job they have and they're like how much you think she makes yeah and they just started to turn it a financial thing j c paces him asking and in the big short the awareness that of like the dancer's income is on everybody's mind that i and that felt really true to me also though isn't uh the two Tucci Bettany scene at the end, one of the most rewatchable scenes, too?

Yeah, I have a few left. Oh, okay, go. Oh, good. I thought you were saying that was it. Okay, keep going. I have the first iron scene. Yes. He does the biggest bag of odorous excrement. He does that one. What you're telling me is that the music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history. of capitalism.

And then when they talk about the music stopping and he has that speech, just play the speech, Craig. You care to know why I'm in this chair with you all. I mean, why I earn the big bucks. Yes. I'm here for one reason and one reason alone. I'm here to guess what the music might do a week, a month, a year from now. that's it

nothing more I'm standing here tonight I'm afraid that I don't hear a thing just silence but then it goes into

the Irons versus Spacey thing where it's like is Spacey gonna take this guy on and Spacey's doing the thing that I always love in a movie, the guy who's the subordinate who knows he has to stand up but there's a line you can't cross where you want to be I don't know

you don't want to be defiant but you really want the guy to rethink the decision that he's making without making him be like fuck you get out of here and he just he kind of nails it it's really good plus those two actors those are two unbelievable actors

they both won Oscars and they get to go toe to toe a couple times in this movie but I love that scene so I got that one part two of Irons versus Spacey I have too Whereas the Yeah It does the you are panicking

Look I just don't think I can walk in there Knowing what I know And put the hammer down on these guys When did you start getting so soft Sam Fuck you soft You're panicking If you're the first out of the door

That's not called panicking Do you agree with that Rosillo If you're the first out the door That's not called panicking Bank maybe both votes, no. Fair. And then I got for the last one,

the Spacey tries to quit. And that's that long iron speech. And if people want to live like this, their cars and their big fucking houses, they can't even pay for it, then you're necessary. All the stuff in there. Any other scenes you would throw in there for most rewatchable? For me, the stoop.

What the fuck is this? Well, I would imagine it's the firm's people. What? don't want any loose ends. He fired me. Fuck them. Fuck them. I totally agree.

Fuck them. So come back. Take the money. You'll be home by five. Otherwise, they're going to fight you on everything. They're going to fight you on your package. The options, everything. I think that the stoop scene, you've been waiting and waiting for Eric Dale to talk to Will,

the life that they didn't, that the sort of romance of the other choice he could have made. And, you know, Tucci. When Philip Seymour Hoffman was alive, I would have said, like, Tucci and Phillips Seymor Hoffman were like the two people I didn't get to work with who I most want to work with. And it's true, like, you know, I'm a fanatic for Big Night. And I just think Tucci is always has humanity. Even when he's like this job, that part in someone else's hands. But Tucci just makes it, you really can see this guy's has almost a poet's soul,

despite the fact that he's this guy whose job is to risk manage so everyone can make millions of dollars and who obviously overspent and all that stuff. And there's something in that scene and like Ryan pointed out because it ends with that moment with Bettany fucking him on the house and was set up by Penn Badgley asking that question. It's just kind of beautifully constructed. And I've watched it many times just to as an act. I mean, the acting is just what a difficult thing to do. like the performances.

And they shot that on the first day of shooting. That was the first thing they shot. Wow. And it's hard to believe because the whole movie builds to it in a way, right? But I love that scene. I wonder when J.C. figured out the mechanism of having the phone turned off, which is completely realistic because it allows Tucci to be missing and it's all, you know, in credit, there's no stretch whatsoever.

It's very minor. I wouldn't call it rewatchable, but it's perfect. It's when Tucci's being let go. And anyone who has ever gone through a layoff, I got to act like, is it always women? Is it always women that let you go because they feel like that way it's a little softer? And her hand movements, because they're not really listening to him, her hand movements are perfect. And when they push over the retirement guide and it's a sailboat on the cover, that scene didn't need it.

It would have been fine without it. That extra stuff like that be like, let's have a sailboat on the fucking cover of like, hey, you're done here, is perfect. Oh, that's another movie that goes in the categories up in the air, which is one of those kind of movies. yeah, you're right. I love it. I love that movie. And that has those guys, that has that too, doesn't it? That kind of thing where you, you, it's like the first 15 minutes. Ryan, I agree with you totally about the hand movements. When she gestures to the security guard. And instead of pointing, when she does that weird thing with her hand, she's amazing. That woman's great. She does it twice. And then it's like, it's like the two women don't know they're next to each other.

And they actually don't even know that you're just another guy in the line. And it's, it's supposed to be so warm. And yet it's the coldest thing. And, you know, everybody's a little worried about how you're going to act. I mean, it happened to me once at the local radio station and you walk in. You know you're done. And they're like, hey, how's it going? And I'm like, hey, can I just leave? And they're like, there's a security guard.

I'm like, I have a couple books. I don't want anything here. I want nothing. I'm out of here. But, you know, granted, they're preparing for the worst with every one of those transactions. And that nailed it. And they were both. All three of them are perfect.

Tuch doesn't even have to do anything because they dominate in there. As a screenwriter, you only find out you're fired because some guy, another screenwriter calls you and is like, hey, do you still have that script that you were on your final draft? You're like, why? And they're like, because I got hired to rewrite you. So if you could, could you send it to me? Like, you just, they don't tell you. Oh, my God. Yeah, they don't tell you.

That's rough. All right, I got, I got Bettney in the balcony. It's my favorite scene. That's way worst. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're right. I got Bettney on the balcony as my most rewatchable, or the iron's first scene would be my two choices.

What do you have compliment? Yeah, those are the two, and I think irons on the, I think really for a rewatchable, there's so many dynamics in that scene when he says, you know, stand up and talk. The conference room scene, yeah. The conference room scene. I also like scenes.

There's a couple TV shows that do this, including billions. when we just get a lot of the best characters just all in a room and we get to just hang out in the room with them for six minutes. It's really smart. Riscilla, what do you have for most rewatchable? If I added one more thing to that, it would be Will selling off his positions

and they do a really good job of telling that story over the course of a trading day. And it's really shot well, too, because it's not on him. It's on the room, work, and the phones, the pricing. It's very easy to follow. Not saying that this is some super complex story that they're trying to tell there.

But it's just cool. It's just cool. The one guy you limey fuck hangs up on him. And at the end, to just approve the point, they're like, hey, I got him at 65 cents. And Spacey's like, done. And he's like, that's $131 million loss on this one trade. And he's like, do it. Really good storytelling.

What's age the best? We mentioned the cast. I like saying Demi Moore in movies like this. I just like Demi Moore. I feel like she had a really nice run. And I like when people who were A plus listeners and then it faded a little bit when they just get used coming out of the bullpen to throw, you know, throw 20 pitches in the seventh inning. We mentioned the speak to me as you might a young child or a golden retriever.

It was a brains that brought me here. That's one of my favorite bullshit tricks that powerful people use. The financial district's sad strip joint hangs are always good. Those places down there, they're never nearly as exciting as you think they would be. The last iron speech was unbelievable. You mentioned the 2008 and all the content that came out of it after. So 2008 is obviously aged the worst because it's unbelievable that it happened, but it's also aged the best from just a storytelling standpoint.

It was one of those things in the moment it felt like a big deal, but then the books, the movies, the magazine articles, the documentaries, everything that came after, it was just, I just felt like we captured it correctly in all these different ways. It's just a pretty impressive body work all over the place. What else would you have? I love just a movie that takes place in one night. Like a nighttime, I love, when I was younger, I used to love shooting at night,

and I still, there's something about just like a thing that takes place, huge, massive decisions being made when most people are asleep and unaware. It's a great metaphor for, like, the whole thing. is that we're all fucking sleeping. And these people are making these giant decisions that are going to fuck us up when we wake up because they're up all night thinking about how to fuck us over.

And I think that's lasted incredibly, like that's, you know, in a way. Well, and there's always, they always throw in the custodian at some point in some way. In this movie, I had that in what stage is the best too. Just incredible use of the custodian

in the elevator, just trapped in the middle of that fight between Simon Baker and to me. It's just like, staring straight ahead trying to stay out of it, I thought was good. I think it's really smart. Also, speaking of the, to me more, what you said, you know what else's age is the best? Not like the way that they made her three-dimensional character. Like in the beginning of the thing, you think that they're going to position her just as this, you know, this woman who wasn't cool to, and they don't, like, by the end, you realize she did, like, go to Jeremy Irons.

Like, not, as she says to Tucci, not maybe in the way. Like, she tried to get in between the. these things, but she was going to get crushed like everybody else. There was nothing she could do, really. And I thought that's nuanced and good, that they gave them that last scene, you know, the demean, Tucci scene, and that they're human to each other is very cool. That it's played very real, right? In a movie, you might just have those two people just cursing at each other the whole time when they're there, but they don't. They just kind of like, yep. What do you have, Vricelho? Any other, what's age the best?

Goldman's share price, 50 bucks a share, 2008, hit 426 this year, closed to 340 today. There's a lot more depth to the Goldman conversation about a bank that made the right calls prior to 2008. Their position would be, hey, we paid everything back and we paid interest and whatever and what we did wasn't necessarily illegal. But they were a bank that had a lot of mortgage-backed securities that they got out of ahead of a lot of other people. They didn't get prosecuted. Well, I know what their argument would be, and I don't know enough about it to claim that I understand it all. I just would say I was trying to do something a little different

with what's age the best, and there you go. Yeah. I think I would throw in Penn Badgley, too, who became just a massive star from you, which I think is... Is he, like, too creepy post you now? Because he was so good in it? It's hard to take them... It's one of those roles where you almost can't unravel the real person from the role.

it's like Anthony Hopkins and silence of lambs. I could never recover from that with him. Great. The second season of you pushed it a bit towards the end, but I thought that that show did about as good of a job as I've seen on a TV show using social media and all the different technology to make it feel like it wasn't being, you know, like you almost have to do it all the time now

when you're telling stories because it's such a dominant part of our lives. But I just really like the way they did that. That's not what we were talking about, so keep it moving. And Zach Kinto, right? I mean, you have to, I think we have to say, like, that guy really, with this movie, put himself in a different place than he was in before that, I think.

What was he? Was he heroes? He was Spock and Star Trek. Yeah. He was done Spock. There's some credibility that this movie brought that he didn't have. But then this movie, he's suddenly like, you know, I don't know, you just want to work with,

like, as a, I would work with that guy in a heartbeat. I would love to work with that guy. I think he's just like an incredible actor and so smart. Such good choices. He didn't bring him in when Damien Lewis was leaving. I mean, he was sitting right there. He could have called him. It's true.

I definitely have called Zach Hinto in my life. I feel like part of this podcast is becoming a pitch to Zach. Zach. Season nine. Zach knows. Zach knows. He's aware. You know what, though?

I'm sorry, but like when we were talking about the heroes thing before, if you had to probably sell it on him, it's him. but then at the end, it's like, hey, you did all right. You know, so it kind of all comes back to the same ending with different lanes. So, yeah. The Denna Thieves Benihana Award for Scene Stealing Location. I like when the stoop for Tucci, I think that street is just really cool and great. I love that.

And then I love the corporate dining room when Irons is eating his steak, which would be my vote. Just perfect. Just this big, empty, awesome dining room with views of the entire city and one guy eating by himself. It was everything I wanted. The Coppomen, you picked this, the Great Shot Gordor Award, this is named after Gordon Willis. For most cinematic shot,

what do you have? Well, there are so many of them for what they had for like the budget they had. Yeah, 17-day shoot. I mean, you kind of have to go with the digging at the end, right? I mean, you kind of have to go with when they opened the movie up

and there's the, you know, with the lights coming from the house and, you know, I mean, a light coming from the car, right? He's got it set up where the light from the car is all the illumination on Kevin Spacey digging in the dark, the ditch. And also, you know, that he referenced it before. I think that's the moment cinema, from a cinematographic standpoint, that's the moment. What do you think? I think I would, I like the scene with Demi Moore is, I like when people stare out of windows and tall buildings in New York City and they're under some sort of, they're

having some sort of crisis. I just think it's going to work every time. They're just kind of looking out and they can frame it a certain way where you can see the person in the city. The Butch's Girlfriend Award for the weak link of the film. This is rare. I don't think there's a weak link in this film. I couldn't find one. There is no, you know,

Rashid Wallace playing 35 minutes in Game 7 in 2010 finals. There's no anything like that. All the actors crush it. So actually, I don't have it. What's Age the Worst? We got to start with Spacey. Spacey brings, I don't want to go into the whole Spacey thing, but he just brings a certain baggage with his old movies down.

It's just the way it is. He's creepy. He's also an incredible actor, and at some point you lose yourself in the movie and you stop thinking about it. But that first 10 minutes with him is always uncomfortable because there's just some super weird shit with him the last four years and some bad stuff.

And it's hard to separate him from whatever, the performances. In this case, I actually think it's a different kind of Kevin Spacey performance. He's playing a variation of nine different Spacey guys, but there's like a softness to it that I thought was pretty interesting. I have an idea for who could have had that role instead later, but anyway, I had to mention that. And then I do think Big Short hurt this movie a little bit because it was so successful. And if Big Short never happened as a movie, I think this, movie probably it's less culty and probably a little bit bigger from a rewatchability cable standpoint. But Big Short kind of swallowed up a little bit of the oxygen around this story.

So I think those would be my two. Do you have any, Riscilla? I want to stay with the big short part of it too because, I mean, look, JC's writing this before. And I think what he's trying to do, and he does it well, it's just a problem that, you know, three or four years later, the big short part of it. But it's that overnight driving through the city pens like these people have no idea they have no idea they have no idea and it's a really cool like I like that he's like because he's like yeah it's kind of right and just walking to do in your life then when mackay did it with that montage that was kind of silent in the shots and the iPhones coming out on all these different things like I just thought the way I mean this isn't fair so maybe I shouldn't even do

this comparison but it was it was one of those things where I think the big short sold that so much more. And that's kind of the way McKay was going to shoot it. And with the budget and a yes to every single possible thing, but I think it was like a minor part of what margin call was. But it is that like, anybody that isn't invested in stocks and all these things, you're kind of like, well, how did you lose all your money? How'd you? You don't get it. Like, shit will happen. And you wake up and you go, what the fuck just happened? And that's a, you know, horrifying reality to a lot of people that woke up the next day. Coppum and any what's age the worst for you?

No, you nailed it with, you nailed it with Spacey. It's really, it's disconcerting. You watch it and you're like, on the other hand, he is playing a fundamentally morally bankrupt dude. So like, it dovetails. Ron Burgundy Flute Award for Best Time for a P-break. As soon as Penn Badgey is crying, I can hustle out of there for about 75 seconds. not missing much. You're missing some crying.

There's some shaving. I like the shaving. The shaving matter. It's fine. I like the shaving, but I get it. If you got to satisfy the category. It's 75 seconds. You could spare it.

Was this the right title for the movie, Riscilla? I love this question because I wonder if the title hurt in that. It was like, wait, what is it? Whatever? Like, what if you had just done something that was just called pigs? And you're like, what's this? It's like, oh, it's pigs. It's about Wall Street. And you went, whoa, okay. You know, like something that really put the banks and the cross hairs apart, you know, aside from like a title that's just like,

hey, this is what happens. This is the technical term, even though, you know, it's a little, little different in the execution for it. I wonder if they had been like way more aggressive and way more negative about the topic if there would have been more interest of like curiosity of like, what is this? What if they had called it biggest bag of odor? excrement. And that had been the title. Would that have done it for you? I don't like margin call the title. I think it's a bad title. And I don't think a lot of people even know what a margin call is.

I don't think it really explains anything for the movie. It's not really, it's not the most central kind of two words that the movie's about, even though I know it's a piece of it. I don't know. I just feel like we could have cop on what should have been named? Sell, sell, sell. Oh, that's pretty good. Exclamation point or no? Like David Gray had an album called that. It's a credit to David Gray, but sell, sell, sell.

That feels like that's what that's what it's about. And that's who those guys are. And, you know, that's, but I didn't mind margin call. But again, I'm steeped in this crap as a writer. So I'm interested. You know, I mean, I know you know what it is. You know, but I understand how it can be distancing. And like something like sell, sell, sell might have been more immediate.

One more break and then we'll hit the rest of the categories. All right, what do you have for best quote? If I gave you the F, it isn't the fear of falling. It's a fear they might jump. If you're the first out of the door, that's not called panicking. I could give you three ways to make a living in this business. Be first, be smarter or cheat. Any other candidates?

Come back, take the money, you'll be home by five. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's... I like that one. Let's use that. That's pretty awesome. Because that's kind of what the whole movie is about. Does Stephen A. Smith thought of us take a, I'll start. I just like this movie more than the big short. I don't care. That's where my heart is.

And I think this is a better, more satisfying, more rewatchable movie. And I know I'm probably in the minority now. I don't care. I mean, you know, I agree with you. I said it. I agree. I said it. And I agree. It's a crazy take according to what most people would think. I think mine is that I think this is one of the 10 best movies of the last 15 years. What do you got, Roussel? This comes out in 2022,

Demi Moore is Jeremy Irons, not the scapegoat. Oh, interesting. They have to, there's no way we don't have a hero. That it's all men and that it's one woman and she's the head that rolls. I don't think that's how the story plays out today. I think you're right. I don't even know if that's that out of a take.

I don't know if Brian was... I think that's 100% how it plays out. Agreeing or you were shaking your head there, so I don't know. Well, I'm not... It depends. If it's about the financial crisis time, there wasn't a woman running one of those banks. So I understand what you're trying to say.

I completely understand what you're saying. I don't actually think so, and I think that take is more of a 2020 take than 2020. Okay. It's the hottest take on your hottest take. Yeah. I have some good casting what ifs for you. The Jeremy Ironswold was originally offered to Sir Ben Kingsley.

Oh, close. He had other projects, couldn't do it. Also, Tim Robbins. He had to refuse because of other obligations. And same for Billy Cruttup. And I don't know what part it would have been, but those were the two that they wanted that couldn't do it because they were busy. And then Carla Gugino was supposed to play the Dummy Moore character.

and at the last minute had another project that ran long had to. I mean, she's had the worst career luck, I think, of any good actress in the last 20 years. There's like 10 stories like that about her. So Demi Moore stepped in pretty late. And then Merrill Streep's daughter, Grace Gummer, had a scene where she played Zachary Kinto's ex-girlfriend. And the director said there was poor directorial work during the shoot. And they had to cut the scene out of the film, but you can find it on the DVD. they just didn't like how they shot it.

And, you know, when you're filming something in 17 days, you're not going to go, you're not going to bat a thousand. So there you go. What do you have for the Ruffalo-Hanna-Rubeneck Partridge Overacting Award? Any overacting in this movie for you guys? I didn't see it. I was looking because I always looked for this category. I never want to not hand out this award,

but I just, I felt like everybody was pretty understated. Yeah, I mean, even though they're big, sometimes it's earned because of the stakes of the situation. So yeah, no, I don't think so. I think the performance is kind of no perfect. I agree, man. When you were asking about the P break, I'm like, there's not really a spot where I get up here.

Yeah. And the same thing goes for the overact. Because sometimes I don't look for it. And then when I look for it, I'm like, how did I not see it originally in some of the other movies or TV shows? You're like, oh, wait, actually, you know, it almost bums you out because then you're like, all right, now I'm noticing it because I was looking for it. it. I look for it. I don't see it. I don't see it. Every one of these people, like, even like we've

mentioned casually Simon Baker, well, Simon Baker's perfect for what he's character's supposed to do. I mean, he just nails it. You know, every one of these, I don't want to leave any of them out because they are so good. Best that guy award. So the guy I play is Ramesh, who's the, like the executive lawyer. His name is Asif Manvi. He's great. I've seen this guy all over the place. I never knew his name until I looked it up to see what his name was. But he's, he's definitely that guy. He's popped up in a bunch of stuff. And I never knew what his name was until I looked it up. Dan Wheaters Award is tough for this because you have like seven or eight people who were all in the movie around the same. And I just don't, there's not that one person who comes in for

like McConaughey and Wolf of Wall Street. There's not that one person that comes in off the bench. Mary McConnell at the end is the wife but I wouldn't give it to her so I'm giving it to Bettney I just we got to capture him somehow even though he's in a lot of the movie I still feel like there's a Dion Waters field there

Dion Waders feel to him so I'm gonna do that all right recasting couch the thought experiment for you guys Tom Hanks in the Spacey role first of all here's my case I don't think Hank's played enough characters like the Spacey character in this movie

and maybe that was a choice when you're like, you know, modern day Jimmy Stewart, maybe you want to gravitate away from people like that. But I think if that's Hanks, you're processing the movie a little bit differently because you're just always going to instinctively root for Tom Hanks and thinks he's staying for something good. And at the same time, this guy was not good.

And I don't know. I think it would have worked. What do you think, Riscilla? Totally would have worked. I think Hank's greatest strength. There's two scenes that I would think of, even though Captain Phillips is in my all-time favorite because I still have no idea what that accent was.

was when he's being rescued and they're cutting the stuff off of him and he's just sort of in shock. Yeah. And he has that moment where it's ultimate sympathy for a character. And an even better version of that is castaway where, you know, there's just really so many simple, awesome things in that movie where, you know, there's seafood out for him, the crab legs and all that kind of thing. But, you know, when he's when he's on the plane, he's just sort of like scratching his knee or whatever. He plays those human moments so well that him struggling with this dilemma, he would have been better than Spacey because I just think that's what he's the best at.

And it may have been a little weird to not root for him, even though I think everybody kind of understood his dilemma. You were still more sympathetic to Spacey's character than you were the others because he was showing you how much he was struggling. And I think even the dog part of that probably helped with some of the audience too. Yeah. Koppelman, what do you think? Hank's in the Spacey role.

You're like having trouble right now. Because he doesn't, the essential nature of who Hanks is on film, he doesn't play sleaze. Like he's not sleazy. And like underneath this character is the fact that he's a Wall Street salesman. Yeah, he loves his dog. Hanks would play that shit great. Look, Hanks would be great, but I don't know that that little moment when he makes the speech, at the end, and then he's like, he kind of drifts away

when he's like, we've done good work here or whatever. And it's like, he can't even bring himself to sell it. Like, that's not, Hanks would deliver that totally. I mean, Hank's the best, but he would deliver that just totally, he just would have delivered it, I think, differently. I think, like, Russell Crow could have played that part in the insider version of Russell Crow, and it would have been kind of fascinating. Put on 30 pounds.

Yeah, if you wanted to, like, sort of. added a jersey accent for no reason. I'm wondering why, why did Russell Crow bring a jersey accident into this? What's going on? But that's why Irons, because we, we, it's just why we have all English judges on every judge show because we somehow defer to them being right

when we are being judged because they sound different. And I think Irons having an accent just helps. It just helps because it's weird. It doesn't, I don't know what it is. Yeah, there's some sort of presence with that dude that's really, distinct. The class found Buelo movie,

which is like the all-time example of that, but there's just the way like his legs crossed, the way he smokes and just like, he just wouldn't want to go cross-country with Jeremy Irons.

That's awesome. It'd be a tough. It'd be tough heck. Half-ass internet research shot in 17 days. More than 80% of the action was shot on the 42nd floor of one-pen plaza,

which had been vacated by a trading firm. It was so hairy getting Jeremy Irons' work visa that they got a couple of U.S. senators had to get involved. It was all during Fourth of July weekend. And in the closing credits, they actually thanked the Jeremy Irons visa miracle team. You could see near the end.

That's awesome. And then this is a real nitpick, but Eric Dale made a mathematical error when he was talking about the time saved by the people using the bridge. He said $559.9. thousand, 20 days, but it was actually 5.5,090,200 days. That's on the internet. This is why we do this. He was way off. He shortchanged himself by 10 times. Apex Mountain. I think the only one I would

definitely say yes to here is Kinto, right? Because he produced the movie. He's one of the stars. He's in with all these great actors. And it felt like he was moving to another level and that. And then that, after this worked, I think it had a chance. Other than that, these are all actors that, would you say Paul Bettney? You would? You'd go for him to? I think so. I think it made him, I think it jumped Paul Bettney to the top of a lot of casting list, then whatever decisions he made. But like, I think that he showed in this movie how charismatic he is and powerful. And it's like, yeah, I think he became a true leading man. And I'm a huge fan of his, but I think he became like a real leading man. I'm a fan to this movie. Would you say Wall Street movies? I would probably say no

for Wall Street movies. Which raises the question, what's the answer? I don't know. If you're Kintone, you've played Spock. Right. You know, that's kind of, he's so good at it too. And he's terrific. And, you know, again, it's like you don't want to dump on it. I mean, for Irons, the guy won an Oscar 30 years ago. Yeah. He's got all sorts of television stuff that I'm not even, I'm not even as locked in on some of the awards that he's gotten for all that. And I don't think you can go Simon Baker either. So this one's pretty tough, but with Bettney, I mean, is he better in a beautiful mind? Well, he's, I mean, he's in the Avengers franchise.

And I think that's, it's got to be something tied to that if you're going Apex Mountain. I mean, his whole generation of all these people know him just from that. Yeah, and JCs continue to make great stuff. like all his loss got nominated too in categories. So I don't think, maybe JC in a way because it's like the launching. That's the answer. JC is a good run. Yeah, that's good.

Jay Cander became, you know, he went to, he became an A-list director in one 17-day plus four days of writing. You know what I mean? The fact that he pulled this off, people are green lighting, whatever your next time is. He's an A-list director. That's it. Best racehorse name? You have a race-horse name from this movie, or is it just Margin' call?

I can see Margin'all winning the Kentucky Derby. I mean, a racehorse called John Told is pretty good. Oh, that is good. I like that. Picking Nets. The cancer-stricken dog and the shovel,

it's a little much. It's dialed up by about 27%. The symbolism of it. Although that shot, I think, is the prettiest shot in the movie. I get it. I'm just saying it's a little doubt of. Although that's the prettiest shot in the movie,

it's the one thing in the movie that I, the dog obsession. I know why it's there, but maybe on the sixth day of writing, J.C. would have changed it. Simon Baker's character is named Jared Cohen. Cohen. That's one of the worst.

You totally don't look like the name of your character, name choices. That's the LaVon Kendall Award. Right. I can almost make that an award. The Simon Baker as Jared Cohen Award. I don't know what he looks like, but he definitely doesn't look like a Jared Cohen.

I wouldn't have gone with that. And then, listen, I don't know enough about the whole financial world, but I just, I find it hard to believe nobody had any idea that they were over leverage like this. It's this kajillion dollar company that has all these assets and- They do touch on it, though. I mean, when- No, I get it, but it's just like in my head. Yeah.

These things were built, these tranches were built in a really, I mean, Ryan's read all this. These tranches of these securized mortgages were built in very, very commonplace. confusing ways to almost everybody. They would call something AAA, you know, like they would just call something AAA, but it wasn't. It was AAA for this bunch of shit. And so like they, and worked and worked and worked and worked. As you know, dude, from Big Short, like the only like five people, real, Michael Berry, the reason he made a billion dollars was like all these banks didn't believe him.

But see, I think that's another side. That was what was so great about Quinto's character is that these are all the people in charge. These are all the people are making this money. It's a good mechanism, too, to tell you how successful everybody's been, his pen keeps asking over and over again. But I do think that that was very real. It's like, wait, what did we do? Like, what, I don't, I don't think everybody knew how screwed up the stuff was despite the title and, and however long they had been there. Not everybody. I get it. I just don't know enough about it. And I obviously, it makes sense because this is why we had all of this content from this era.

but it's just, I just can't believe. That's part of like the magic of these movies and these books is that you're going through it with them and you're like, I can't believe you guys are just finding out that, like, how did you not know? Totally. Totally. I don't want to act like nobody. The one, if we stayed on this, would you still been able to sell a piece of paper at 65 cents on the dollar at $359 after you'd spent all day calling the entire town and asking if they want to buy your position? Again, I don't even know the answer to that. Or would everybody have stopped taking your calls by 11 a.m.?

Any other picket nits? You got any? No? All right, moving on. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black cast or untouchable, if you could have another crack at this. I did think long and hard about the prestige TV version of this. And could you do it where each basically do a 24 style like Kiefer Sutherland,

that show? and just do it where it's a 13-hour, 13-episode show, and it's just 13 hours of the margin call. That was an intriguing idea. Maybe season one takes you from 4 in the afternoon through 5 in the morning or something like that. I personally wouldn't touch it, but the TV angle is semi.

I could see Apple making the splashy version of this. Anyway, you guys are down on that? Casey thought he could, I mean, no, I'm just thinking, like, hard for me to answer that one. I mean, you know. Yeah. I mean, in a way. But I'm saying could you do it about, like, could you do an actual TV show about a two-hour? You're saying about that night.

Yeah, like a two-day stretch. Could that be a TV show? I mean, no, the TV show is probably a year later. Yeah. And you go a year later how they became Goldman again, right? That is fascinating. I'll say, yes. How that guy, John told, rebuilt those relationships and became again, like what Ryan just said,

from 50 bucks to 450, that's the show. That's how you do the show with those characters. A post quote. And you can't believe how they got there. Look, I'm interested enough to imagine that I would watch the prequel to all this. But then I'm like, so what? A bunch of people getting approved for mortgages? Those are the first three episodes?

Like, okay, how does, like, why am I watching this? Yeah. And no, you'd be watching the guy. you'd be watching the people who figured out if we take these toxic bad mortgages, but we bundle them together, we can rate them differently and sell them. That's, you know,

that's a fascinating conversation, right? I wanted to ask Brian this, because I know we're almost done, but I don't know if you've set out to write anything this way, but the process of going, all right, I'm going to write 120 pages here,

but I'm only going to tell a story over 24 hours. How different is the preparation for something like that? I mean, I think it is just like, I've done it. We've done episodes like that and you're, you're, yeah. I think it's just about if you have the story to tell. Like once you have the story to tell and you know, then it's about just little, all you need is conflict, basically, Ryan. So you would then have to just know that during the course of that time,

there's different, different vectors where the conflict can happen, where you're trying to do something, but someone's stopping you. And that's what's happening all night long, right? they can't reach it. JC really brilliantly created this problem set, which is, are we going to tell the boss, uh-oh, we fucked up,

we fired the wrong guy, can we get the guy that we fired to show back up again? Can we keep our employees in the dark? Will the guy who was the only guy who can sell it, sell it? So there's these problems and he just brilliantly thought it out, how to throw it. But it's not really a different challenge, I don't think.

If you could have had Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Catherine Hans, Steve Bouchemy, Sam Jackson, J.T. Walsh, or Philip Baker Hall in this movie, who would you have? I will just say, Philip Baker Hall would have been an incredible ad. And you almost could have just worked him in for two minutes, but I don't think he would take stuff off the table in this movie. But he could have played either. Philip Baker Hall could have played either John Told or he could have played Sam, right? I think it's like a new character. I almost think like in the beginning of the movie when they're laying off everybody, he's just, he's just kind of there in the

background. That's the flashback to Sam's father. The flashback to Sam's father. That's Philip Baker Hall. Yeah. Great. Yes. Ricelo, you can only hand out one Oscar who gets it.

JC. I think I agree. Probably in answerable questions. We covered the Spacey thing, what to do with his IMDB and his movies. Any other in answerable questions for you? I didn't have any. What about Wayne Jenkins getting let go and he plays Tucci? see we need Chris Ryan here to be like right instead of Tucci you the couple kids at home and a concerned wife

Wayne Jenkins just I mean that changes the movie too much but how long how long do you think spacey here's my how long you think spacey really stays there that's that's a great spacey stay oh that's a good unanswer well because it's such a great another like seven more years perfect lines in this movie, but when John is like Irons just goes, now I'm going to need you another 24 months. Like, I'm not registering a fucking word or thought or concern that you have. And I'm going to need you another 24 months. And you're going to do it because you're you and I'm me. He goes, you get your options.

You get your options. You get your bonus and your base. We'll stay the same. But you got to give me 24 months. Yeah. But how long does he stay? I think he stays for 10 years. I don't think he ever leaves.

Yeah, I would say at least five. He dies at his desk, you know. Yeah. Yeah, because what are his options worth? So he's going to build him back up. He's not going to leave now. Best double feature choice with this movie. Would you go with Wall Street?

Would you go with the big short? Would you go different errors? Would you just go same era? What would you do, Cappellman? Either Wolf of Wall Street or Sweet Smell of Success. What about you were so? Bright Lights, Big City. Oh.

Third-fifth anniversary coming up. That's a good one. I would go Wall Street. I think Wall Street's a fun mix with this and a totally different movie and yet compliments it. We already did the Andy and Red Zwanthanao Award for what happened the next day. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? Weird question for this one. I couldn't come up with anything, man.

Benny's car. Is it Aston Martin? That's what I was going to put down, but I just felt like that worked. It's eligible. I'll take the Austin Martin. Why not? All right. last one, the Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. What was it, Cappelman? What's the best life lesson in this movie? Talk to your kids. Oh. I would also go with maybe do math a little bit better. It'd be another life lesson. Oh, you know what? I've always wanted to mention one thing,

though, about the acting of Kevin Spacey. I agree with you, all the problematic things. Kevin Spacey is such a detailed and as just an actor, just acting. He smokes a cigarette completely differently depending on what character he's playing. Look at the way Verbal Kint smokes a cigarette compared to the way this guy smokes a cigarette. Verbal Kint grabs a cigarette from underneath and does this really weird thing that hints that he might be European or who knows. And the way this dude smokes, his ritual with how he smokes the cigarettes, it's like very specific.

And you could tell he studied people and thought about it. And I find that amazing. And not in a corny way. Let's stay on this. I always thought De Niro was the Michael, Jordan of this category. I love it. The way he smokes cigarettes, like his Jimmy Conway, the way Jimmy Conway smoke cigarettes.

The way Jimmy Conway throws the cigarette away is incredible. Yeah. The way he uses it as like also he's sizing somebody up at the same time versus like the way Jack Walsh smoked at Midnight Run. I think he's the goat as a cigarette smoker in movies. Pacino's pretty good though. I love it. And honestly, Damon's pretty fucking awesome.

Yeah, Damon's good. Anybody who else is in your cigarette hall of fame or Sillow? I'd say Christopher, Zopranos. Nice pull. Sharon Stone and Basic Instinct really good too. Also, Gandalfini would have been fucking incredible as Sam. He would have been amazing as Sam. Wow.

How many parts could Gandalfini have played in this movie? Everybody except Penn? He couldn't have played Zach Kinto. He couldn't have played Zach Kinto. He couldn't have played. I'm kidding. You're right. Rocket scientists from MIT.

Could he have played irons? Yeah, he was so great. Yeah, that's a good one. Philip Seymour Hoffman's, the other guy who obviously could have played Sammy, would have killed it. It would be incredible. Who won the movie? Not including J.C. Chander?

No, you can give it to him. Him. I think he wins it too because of the degree of difficulty. And sometimes that's what you have to do to launch a career. The fact that he pulled all this off, it's a sleek movie, which it shouldn't be because they had no money and no time to shoot it, but it doesn't look that way at all. It doesn't look cheap.

It doesn't look hastily done. None of that stuff. I was really impressed. I don't feel like any of the actors really vaulted above any of the other actors. But, I mean, you could make an irons case here. That would be pretty good. That would be the other one, I think. I think he's the runner-up.

He's the silver medalist. What do you have, Riscilla? Yeah, I mean, if I have to make a case for irons, I can because every scene is terrific. There's just so many terrific lines that we've gone over and over again. But I just like what JC did here. I liked it. It wasn't wrapped up in a perfect bow. The happy ending is actually the one that no one would ever actually root for.

I like movies that aren't always the most formulaic. And I just think if he was an unproven guy explaining this to somebody else, the person who was established with a tune him out in 30 fucking seconds. What are you doing? 24 hours, margin call. Like what? Oh, 20 people are in it. I'm supposed to care about all these people.

I think what he did. is a very hard thing to execute. And he did it brilliantly. Yeah, I made my wife watch this with me last night. And normally, especially later at night, she's like, I don't want to pay attention. Like, don't make my brain work too much. So when it started and it started to get a little bit dense, she was like, oh, no, is this one of those things? But she actually could follow it.

And I think that's such a hard thing to do with the movie like this. And we mentioned earlier, but the Jeremy Irons being like, can you explain this to me? like I'm, you know, a golden retriever. Like, that was really helpful because it allows, that device allows them to explain it to somebody like my wife who's half asleep at, you know, 1130 at night. Producer Craig, before we go, Craig Horlebeck. Yeah.

Had you seen this movie before? I hadn't even heard of it. Okay. What'd you think? I thought it was fantastic. It was indistinguishable from a TV show in 2022 in my mind. I think if you showed somebody my age, this video and like didn't tell them what it was,

they would have said it was an HBO television show. I mean, watching like the show industry or succession. Like I barely, I couldn't believe this was a movie, and I think if it did get made today, it would easily be a 10-part TV show and this would be like the pilot or something like that. But every movie about finance

is always just about like, you know, the evil nature of the business. But it never fails to make me want to work in finance. And even this movie, like Wolf of Wall Street, Wall Street, Wall Street, street. They all have the glitz and the glamour. Like, this doesn't have any of that. And yet I'm still like, fastened

and I'm like, I'd do it. I'm in. You know what I mean? There's just something about it. I can see Craig crying in the toilet as Simon Baker shaves wondering what his choices work. Well, you wouldn't see it because you'd be getting popcorn then, but yes.

Yes, true. Chris Ryan's just shaving. Ignoring. All right. It was a pleasure. Coppomen. Great suggestion. Fantastic to see you.

Craig Horlebeck, thanks for producing. And we will see you next week on the rewatchables.