The Rewatchables - ‘Mr. Holland’s Opus’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

Episode Date: December 29, 2020

‘Mr. Holland’s Opus’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan take a seat in Mr Holland’s music-appreciation class to rewatch the 1995 drama “Mr. Holland's Opus,’ starring Richard Dreyfuss, Glenne Headly, and Jean Louisa Kelly. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, if you love the rewatchables, we move the entire library to Spotify. Every rewatchables podcast that we've done since 2017, we've done almost 175 episodes at this point. You can find them all exclusively on Spotify. And if you want to hear everything from the last 60 days, including this one and next weeks and whatever, everything from the last 60 days is available on all platforms, including a couple of classics, too, like the Godfather and Old School and Jaws. But if you want to hear the entire library, go to Spotify, and you can listen to me at 1.2 speed where I really thrive. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation.

Built for today's creative process. Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car on Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly.

Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch.

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need a knock on wood. Do we have what? Is this tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. We're also brought to you by the ringer.com and the Ringer podcast network, where we are cranking out all kinds of podcasts as we head toward the last week. Thank God. Thank God.

Thank God. Of 2020, check out the Ringer NBA show and the Ringer NFL show. If you love football and basketball, on you want to get ready for this NBA season that just started or the NFL season that's about to hit the playoffs. Check out the big picture with Sean Fantasy. Check out The Watch with Chris Ryan.

Check out Bachelor Party with Julia Lemon. Check out all of our pop culture podcasts, including binge-boated with Mallory Rubin. Go to the ringer.com if you want to see all the podcasts we have going. Coming up. I want to talk to my son. Mr. Hollins Opus is next.

Critics are calling Mr. Hollins Opus one of the best pictures of the year. If you have the passion, and you want to do what you want to do, a flat out wonderful movie. You love music and you made the kids love it with you. Winner of two Golden Globe nominations, including Best Actor for Richard Dreyfus.

It's in your head. It's in your heart. And Siskel and Iber give it two thumbs up. Come meet your son. The best of the best. Richard Dreyfus. Mr. Holland's Opus, rated PG. Snake preview Saturday, January 13th. All right, Sean Fantasy is here.

Van Lathan is here. What a up. And we're going to talk about a complicated movie that I think we all love, that has a lot of issues, but ultimately, it came out 25 years ago. The anniversary was this month, and I think the reason I like this move, let's go positive to start out. Sure. I really like following the three decades of a teacher. I think teachers are the most underrated people that we have in America.

My father was a teacher and eventually became a superintendent and spent 33 years in the same school system. and when he had the retirement dinner, it was a little Mr. Holland's opacy, and you have all these different people passed through your lives. So I think that's why I love this movie the most. So we'll go positive. Sean, why do you love this movie the most?

Ooh. Well, it's an all-time mid-90s Disney-created drama that just plays your heartstrings like Hendricks play in the National Anthem. It is like every 28 minutes they throw a scene at you that probably will make you cry

and just manipulate the show. shit out of you, and I love that. I'm also, I have six uncles and aunts who are teachers, and my mom worked in a public school system for 25 years. So, you know, these are the most important people in your life for the first 18 years of your life other than your parents and your siblings. And it's a good testament to that. I do have a lot of negative comments, but I'll save those in the lead van. Say the good stuff. What do you got, Van? Yeah, like, first of all, any movie that spans time, like, I love movies that span time that, like, take, one character throughout the decades, you know?

Like, you know, the butler is that same old magical Negroes service bullshit. But the cool thing about the movie is that it spans time through one character. And it's interesting to do it with teachers because the interesting thing about teachers is that we don't think that they have lives. There's such benchmarks in our lives that I remember Doc Walsh at McKinley High School telling me that, hey, when you leave, there'll be other kids that come in here. there's another van, like, almost like that scene in the matrix where the guy goes, hey, Neo, I've seen you before.

And she goes, yeah, I've seen you before. And then, like, afterwards, you leave and there's more people coming in. We've never had, I hadn't really never seen that. Like, you think of teachers, but, like, they have to, they go on to these kids and then they're gone, but their lives kind of are still there. And I liked watching that. I really specifically liked watching it in the rewatch I just did of it. Yeah.

It's funny. There haven't been nearly enough movies. about teachers. And usually when it's a movie about a teacher, it's always like the dangerous minds kind of movie, which we did on the rewatchables. Or, you know, it's usually a teacher going into a school that's, you know, rough kids or underfunded or whatever, and they become the same year. Stand and deliver types. Yes. I'm with Van. I love when movies span over time. And interestingly enough, Forrest Gump, the year before, did the same thing. Sean and I did that. I was one of the first rewatchables of the first year.

Same kind of thing where you fall through, get the little montage that tells you, oh, we're in the 70s now. You're playing Jackson Brown, the Pretender. I know what time frame we're in, and it just kind of goes. Haircuts change. And Dreyfuss is really good in this movie,

and he ends up getting nominated for an Oscar. And it's another kind of movie from the 90s, Sean, where it's like, we need the one star. Got to put him on the poster. It's going to span some time. We're going to have a couple of Oscar scenes for him. A little supporting thing. And the kind of movie, they don't really make this movie anymore.

I feel like this would be now like an ABC show. It would be a C. It called Mr. Holland's Opus. It would span a season. It would be 13 episodes and they'd cancel it. Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why they don't make movies like this. But one of them is, I think it's a baby boomer movie. You know, and there's this big arc of baby boomer movies.

It kind of launches with the graduate and Easy Rider and you get MASH and then American Graffiti. where we all meet Richard Dreyfus, basically. And then Jaws, more Richard Dreyfus, close encounters. Kramer versus Kramer, the big chill, baby boom, force gump. And then this is kind of the end of an era of these kinds of movies where they're capturing the lives of these people that are born in the 50s and 60s in America. And they are basically controlling the narrative of what the country is.

Like this is a movie that's ostensibly about a music school teacher. But it's also trying to be about like reveling. And the revolution and John Lennon and all of these vast themes. Vietnam. Vietnam. Yeah. And, you know, it's doing it somewhat lazily by just showing us images from those times. But it has, like, a lot of ideas on its mind, whether it's executing them perfectly all the time, I'm sure we'll talk about. But that's one of the reasons why I don't think we get these movies anymore is because the baby boomers are moving out of the center of driving culture now. They are entering an elderly phase of their life. And they're no longer dominating the way that they used to. Yeah, they shouldn't be driving anything. It's time to get those licenses back from the babyovers at this point. Yeah, you know what I mean? Dreyfus.

So, Jaws and close encounters come out, and I'm a little kid. And Dreyfus is in both of those. I know nothing. I just assume he's one of the biggest actors in the world, right? And then he gets nominated for the Goodbye Girl. He's in a bunch of Oscar stuff. Did he win for the Goodbye Girl? He did.

Yeah. And he just seems like he's like, It's like De Niro Puccino-Dreyfus. I don't know any better. And then has this really weird career. It's ravaged by cocaine. We'll go into those stories later. Where he loses years of his career to cocaine stuff.

Then has this weird comeback with Down and Out in Beverly Hills. Oh. He's the narrator and Stand By Me, he's in Tin Man. He's in Steakout, which is a really, really good buddy cop movie in the 80s. He's in Let It Ride. He's in What About Bob with Bill Murray? And then just kind of has this whole resurgence. And it culminates with.

another stakeout, which anytime you make a movie that's good enough to be a sequel, that's great. But then the American president, which we recently did, he's Bob Rumson. And then Mr. Holland's opus gets nominated again. This was a really good career. And yet, should we be looking at him?

Like, we look at an athlete, like a David Thompson where it's like, oh man, think about if the cocaine hadn't happened. This guy, was he as good as the Pacino-Denero level to you, Sean? Well, I kind of want to know what Van thinks, because he has two phases, right? He has that five-year blackout

period where we just basically don't see him in a movie. He's barely participating in Hollywood. So he has, I don't know, I mean, who's an athlete who had a huge first half and then a huge second half, but like a messy middle. What's the see, didn't really have a huge first half. The guy, remember that

because it all got fucked up, remember the guy that got all the tattoos for the Tampa Bay raise. Oh, Josh Hamilton. Josh Hamilton. Yeah. But kind, but maybe kind of not, though, because it ended badly for him if I do remember. Josh Hamilton was a huge, huge prospect, completely derailed it. And then once he got his chance, came back and was the man for probably about,

what, four or five seasons there or something like that? It's Dwight Good and if Dwight couldn't, when he had the comeback, if he had been awesome. It's like if the second part of the Dwight Gooden thing was great because Jaws and Close Encounters are still two of the biggest movies of all time. And he's in both of them in a significant way. Jaws is probably one of the five or ten most important films ever made, in my opinion. No question. So, Van, what's your Dreyfus take?

Because this is the ultimate late career Dreyfus movie. So he is, to me, he is one of the probably top 10 beloved actors for me ever. Wow. Because I used to watch Down and Out in Beverly Hills, like with my mom. Yeah. And the movie is such a delightful film. It's a romp, but it's such an amazing, like when the little Richard died, I posted a clip from the movie, talked about how much I had watched the movie when I was a

kid. And like he, when you look at that back half, because I saw Jaws and close encounters later, right? He just, my whole young life, I was born in 1980. He started just killing it. Yeah. And then you get to what about Bob? And to me, by the time Mr. Holland's opus comes, I look at him and I go, oh yeah, if he's in it, I'm going to watch it. Um, and it's weird. I think that what happens is with actors like Richard Dreyfus is he never was in a movie that made him cool, which is the difference between Stakeout was the closest was the closest

The difference between him and Pacino is There's still a part of Al Pacino and Robert Excuse him Al Pacino and Rob De Niro is like There are characters that they played And we wanted to be them Yeah And that goes a long way with a fan

That's kind of the thing that Leo has That's the thing that Brad has You know that goes a long way And he was never that guy He was always he always brilliant But like I don't you don't watch Mr. Holland's opens And go damn I wish that was me You know what I mean?

so he never really captured us like that. That's such a good point. I feel like the Mount Rushmore of white guys who emerged in the 70s is Pacino, De Niro, Nicholson, and Hoffman. Those are the four guys who you're like, these guys dominated the decade. Dreyfus is probably fifth,

not quite on the rock. And the reason for that is he's not conventionally handsome. He's not even really that charming. He just seems really smart. And directors would often cast him as like their avatar in movies, George Lucas casts him essentially to be an American graffiti, him.

You know, in Jaws, in many ways, Hooper is Spielberg. He's the brainiac. He's the guy who's using logic and ingenuity to solve the problem. And he kind of feasted on that for 10 or 15 years in Hollywood, where directors would kind of grab him to be stand-ins for their vision, which was really smart. And Mr. Holland's Opus is kind of like a continuation of that. But he's not a matinee idol, not a cool guy like you're saying, man, you're never like aspiring to fill his shoes. So it's a really unusual career. So he's basically Dan Marino.

You said he didn't make the Mount Rushmore of the 70s actors, which was, you know, no shame in that. The four guys you listed were unbelievable. He did make the Mount Rushmore for legendarily difficult star actors. It was basically him and Dustin Hoffman in the finals. And I think that was a big part. You know, Dreyfuss was pretty open about the cocaine stuff. But he was also really really, hard to work with. I think he had that reputation and super difficult. And I forget what movie it is in the, it might have been the competition, the one he did with Amy Irving or whose life is it anyway. It's one of those two where he's just off the rails. And I remember, because I always loved Dreyfus. And then when I really got into movie stuff in the late 80s, early 90s,

reading the books, reading different things, it was like, oh, Richard Dreyfus was an asshole? I had no idea. And I think that was, unfortunately, his reputation. So some of these movies that he picks later on, culminating in Mr. Holland's opus, the irony is he's playing this beloved school teacher who's also kind of a prick, which let's just get into it. So I've seen this movie a lot. It's very rewatchable. One of the reasons it's rewatchable is the first 35 minutes are not great. You could actually get it done in about five minutes. And the movie gradually gets better as it goes along.

And the last half of the movie is incredibly rewatching. watchable. It's really from the moment Terrence Howard shows up, the movie's just good from that point on. But every time you watch it, you notice stuff about Mr. Holland, where you're like, wait a second. Troubling things. Which is funny because in real life, you probably have these teachers and professors that you idolized when you were a kid or you thought they were great. And now you look back and you're like, wait a second, that guy was kind of an asshole to me. I didn't, I didn't realize that. So anyway, I'm going to call this section, are we sure, Mr. Holland didn't suck. Just some points. Wife tells him she's pregnant.

No reaction. Ends up making her cry. That's his reaction to I'm pregnant. Has to be uprated by the principal and the football coach to start caring about his high school kids. Two separate scenes of people being like, hey man, these kids, they need you. Can you think he'd be nice to the kids?

You're a teacher. Yeah, you're a teacher. Could you teach? Right. Cool. Wasn't there for his child's birth, not interested. Wave just in the hospital alone, pumping the head out. It's not like you, Cal Ripkin, and the streak is on the line.

You know what I mean? Like, it's not, let's put this in context. Not there for the child's birth. And it's not as if. He was doing driver's ed. Right. It's not as if you're like going to, a mission to Mars, Martian style. Like, you're doing driver's ed in the summer dog.

Come on, Mr. Holland. Come on. didn't want to pay for a private school for his deaf child. Not interested in that. Nah, let's just put him in public school. He'll be fine. The whole cold thing is, wow. I just got to be honest.

We'll talk more about it. Spends way more time with his school kids than his real kid, to the point that his deaf son finally has a tantrum about you just care about your school kids and not me. It's like, ah, fair point. Develops a crush on his high school student, writes Rowena's theme about the high school student, then lies to his wife as when she catches him and claims it's a Greek goddess. not realizing that his wife's going to go to the play and see that the lead of the play is Rowena.

You dumbass. Almost runs off with a high school girl. Intermittently and consistently mean to his deaf son assumes his deaf son won't understand why John Lennon's death was a sad moment and tells him this. You wouldn't understand. You wouldn't understand.

Like he says it. Won't help his deaf son understand music to the point his deaf son throws the tantrum. And then I picked this up in the internet research. grows a mustache and it's like one of rule number one if somebody's lip reading is it's much harder for them to read your lips

if you have a mustache. Mr. Holland doesn't fucking care. He's rocking his stash. Van, was Mr. Holland a fucking asshole? He was. Okay, good. I agree. Of course he was. He's easily the most self-centered, likable

character in a movie that I can remember. Like Mr. Holland, okay, first of all, let's put this into context. It's not like Mr. Holland was like in the Who or the Beatles or something like that and he got kicked out. He didn't leave a real music career. He said himself it was bar mitzvahs and weddings and things like that. Right. Dude, you tried it.

It didn't work. Go make a family. All right. Everything that happens that's not centered around him, he makes it seem like he's doing somebody else a favor. Like his wife is pregnant. He puts a crib together. They have a baby. He goes, well, maybe we should get a house.

She goes, do you mean it? Yeah. You fucking need a house now. You got a kid. What you got the kid in the middle? Like you put Cole under a stack of Stevie Wonder Records. Like you, like you need a house, dog. And don't get me started with the thing with Rowena.

Weird. He even does the trope where the wife is sleeping. And he comes in with his tie half off. Like he gets bonus points for not having sex with the high school student. I miss that one. No, dog. You're not supposed to do that. And you kissed her on the cheek. What's wrong with you? By the way, that's very, I remember even watching this movie this, back in the day, my mom going, ooh, he nasty. Y'all don't see this? Because we went, we all went the choir of my school, went to go see it in theaters. And my mom saw this. She's like, that's not,

no, he was nasty. He was trying to get with a little girl. It's the biggest edit that they should have edited in the movie. He shouldn't have, they shouldn't have had a moment where it seems like she thought they were going to kiss. Take that. out. You're not helping the case for Mr. Holland. Rudy for him as the movie hero. It's like, oh, is he going to kiss her? Oh, thank God. He just kissed her on the cheek. It's like, she's 17. Come on, Mr. Holland. Sean, what do we leave out? The mid-90s were wild, man. Like, beautiful girls, the professional, all these movies with these middle-aged men. I was about to say, that was kind of an era.

What about Lolita? Lillita was another one, right? Dominic Swain? That one was really crazy. That was kind of an era there. And it was like, there was a whole era where it just didn't seem like people cared about it that much. When a movie is being made, hundreds of people are involved. There are dozens of executives

who have awareness of what's going on in a movie. It's not like 11 people make it and they're like, we have this beautiful vision and we're putting it on screen. Like Disney paid for this movie. And they put it in theaters and it features Richard Dreyfus almost kissing a 17-year-old on the mouth.

It's just super weird. And running away with her. Almost. Almost. almost. I think it's like a perfect movie about a person with narcissistic personality disorder. Like he's just a complete and total narcissist. But he does have like good sincere feelings inside of him.

And he's trying to do right. And it actually shows that this guy actually only had so much love and attention to give. And he never knew where to put it. When he was supposed to be putting on his kids, he wasn't putting it on, you know, his students. He wasn't doing that. When he was supposed to be putting on his son,

he wasn't doing that. He takes advantage really of his wife and her, time and doesn't really seem to respect her very much, which sucks. But that kind of makes this the perfect baby boomer movie. Like this is, this is what that generation is kind of known for, that we're kind of trying to evolve out of this way of seeing the world where it's all about me, me, me. And it's a great example of that. In addition to that, I'm curious if you guys think he is a failure as a creative person. Like, in addition to being a bad person, is he a good creative person? No, I don't think he's a failure as a creative person at all. And I think that's

kind of one of the big takeaways of the movie is he created so much. He just didn't create what he thought he was going to create, right? Like, he still made amazing music and they played it for him at the end. And like when they say, I know it's corny, but when they say, we are your open. It's like, we are your, like, we cannot begin to appreciate teachers that much, as much as we should. Like, he's looking on that stage and his life probably means way more than what it would have meant if he had had one number one head or something like that or been like as far as the actual impact. And I think the movie creates a lot of value in that.

And that's kind of how it saves sort of itself in the end. Also, it's interesting that you say the baby boomers seen because the whole time I was watching this movie, the big chill kept popping up in my mind as if I could see him in that house with those people. Totally. Like, you know what I mean? So it's just interesting to watch a film about someone who has to come to terms with the fact that the.

amazing life that they're living is somehow different than the amazing life that they didn't have. I just love films like that. You hurt my feelings when you said it was corny when the governor said, look around you. We are Eropis. Because I think he's achieved a success far beyond riches and fame. Look around you. There is not a life in this room that you have not touched. and each one of us is a better person because of you.

We are your symphony, Mr. Holland. We are the melodies and the notes of your opus, and we are the music of your life. I actually thought that worked. That was all in. No, it did work. It did work. I got to say, I had this at what stage the best.

I'll do this now. Dreyfus nails the I'm trying not to cry. Yes. I'm holding an in-face. I don't know. know if anyone's done it better. I think it's the best. Yeah, he bites his lip, drops his head down. Three, four different times of the movie, he just completely crushes it. It's amazing.

And then when he's doing the conducting at the end, he's still like, he's still doing it. I don't know if he practiced it in a mirror or what was going on there, but I don't know. It totally worked for me. And I'd be really, it was written by Patrick Shane Duncan, directed by Stephen Herrick. I'd be really interested to know if Mr. Holland was intentionally flawed, they had this whole master plan where it's like, and in the end, he's going to be a good guy. And we're going to see adult Cole come back and he's going to be talking to him. And he's going to have your car. And we'll be like, oh, he made it. He's actually a decent guy now. Or if this was just unintentional and they didn't realize how flawed he was as they made the beats of the movie. I have no idea.

What do you guys think? I had the same question in my notes, was do they know that this is probably not really a good person? Like, is there a level of self-awareness about the movie that they made? Or is it like a reflection of a lot of people who work in the creative fields who feel stymied by the systems that they work in? And if it is, then maybe it's not as self-aware as it wants to be. I don't know. I think the thing that makes me know that it was unintentional is the William H. Macy character, which is so intentionally cast to make Mr. Holland look better.

Right. At least he's not that guy, right? At least Mr. Holland is fighting for things that we all wish we could be artists and the arts and things that would all make life easier and better and more beautiful. So in that was his saving grace. I think his faults are put there so that he can kind of rescue himself in grandiose ways. like I gotta be honest with you. I don't know why this particular time,

maybe just because I'm a little older. The beautiful boy scene destroyed me. It's really good. It leveled me this time, and I'm not sure why. But you can't get that. You don't get that scene unless he's a dick to his kid for a little while before then, you know?

So I think that's kind of the way the movie works. That's the dynamic by which it works. Well, then the scene when William H. Macy, when he pays off the college to accept his kid on the... Oh, no, that was real life. My bad. So Dreyfus, this is one of the weird best actor years of all time. 95, which we've covered...

I'd say we've done at least 15 movies from 95 on the rewatchables this year. And it was a really good movie year, and everybody just missed everything. Like, this is the year. Heat comes out in Casino and all these different, really fun movies that, a lot of which we've covered. We saved Casino.

We've left like 10 on the table, but we've done a ton of them too. And the best actor category ends up. Nick Cage wins for leaving Las Vegas. Not sure if that would happen again. That's a fantastic performance. It's just Nick Cage. I just think if we're retroactively litigating it, I don't know if we talk ourselves out of Nick Cage having an Oscar.

Maybe not, but that is legitimately a gutting, calling. Yeah, fantastic film, yeah. Who do you think is better in that movie, him or Elizabeth Shoe? I think it's her by a pretty wide margin. I think she's really good at that movie. But she's fantastic, yeah. Yeah, that will not be on the rewatchables that movie. So he wins.

Dreyfus gets nominated. Anthony Hopkins got nominated for Nixon. Sean Penn gets nominated. Yeah. Sean Penn got nominated for Dead Man Walking. And then Massimo Troisi for El Pasino. Crush that pronunciation. Nice job.

Thank you. And meanwhile, we have like 12 other great actors who were in a movie that year. that if we redid this, I'm not sure anyone gets nominated other than Nick Cage. I don't think Dreyfus would get nominated either. Hard to say. This was like the capper to his big 80s to 90s come back because he had not been nominated since he won for the Goodbye Girl.

And the big reason I'm sure he didn't win is because he already had one in his pocket. But on the seven rewatchables, I made my case for Morgan Freeman. I feel like that's the underrated performance from this year. That's the person that holds that movie together. When we think back, we think, oh, Brad Pitt's Superstardom and Kevin Spacey coming in at the end. but Freeman, that was the one that I was like, this is an amazing, amazing piece of acting that he's doing. But there's probably like five or six more, you could say,

we're worthy that year. He, one of those two has to at least get nominated. That's like incredible. Wayne Grove, supporting actor. Wayne Crowe. Oh, my God. Treo. It's hard to believe.

Henry Rollins. Yeah. Really good cast in this movie. I like Glenn Headley in this movie more than you. I agree that she never really, you know, that this easily could have been, I don't know, Francis McDormand and maybe it's a little more interesting.

But I thought she nailed the couple scenes. And really, the big scene she nails is when she figures out Rowena's in the program and does that kind of look up and it's got the light. All of a sudden, she's looking super old and just has this look like, oh my God, my husband is in love with this lady.

William H. Macy, great flat top. Olympia Dukakis. Yeah. I've always enjoyed, kind of just underrated her whole career. Still magnolias. Jay Thomas. Oh, yeah.

This was, I mean, in all time, Apex Mountain, no mystery here. This is the Jay Thomas Apex Mountain. We're right off of the Murphy Brown Love and War moment, you know, where he was like on TV every week for seven years, Jay Thomas. I liked him. He was good. I was very much. Gene Louise and Kelly, who plays Rowena, Alicia Witt, early. She goes on to do a bunch of stuff.

And then our guy, Terrence Howard. And I just want to do this now. because I know we're going to get to, we can do this in what stage the best, but let's do it now. Terrence Howard's so likable in this movie. And he's just young and handsome and charismatic. And I was watching it going, can we do his career over again? Like, are there, is there a different way to do this? Could this guy have been like, you know, one of the big, could he have been Will Smith?

Like, could he have had been in some of these movies? Could he have carried big-ass movies for 20 years? he has a lot of off-the-set stuff and had a lot of issues, but I just think he's really good in this movie. So there's a performance that sets the tone for Terrence Howard's career about four or five years after that.

Remember the best man? Yeah. When he comes into the best man and he plays that sort of sly, smooth, anti-hero, rabble-rouser type guy, they never let him out of that.

He played that for the rest of his career. He played that guy because it's so... And even though the way he actually talks and the rhythms of his speech and the way he actually is and who he is in real life, it just was too in his DNA. And so he never got to that point where he got to try it.

Even when he got the big Marvel look to where he was very likable in that film, it got fucked up. Pushed him right out. Yeah. He had a little moment there where he's in Dead Presidents and Mr. Hollins opus

and then Sunset Park right after that where in a row, you're like, oh, we have a new guy, a new dude. And then he didn't really do all that. I guess he did Players Club a few years later, but didn't really do a lot for until he got to Best Man, which you're right. I feel like he basically got typecast after that movie.

Is Tan Towers'Haw and Players Club? Yeah, yeah. Who is he in Players Club? He's really good in Crash, which I think is a movie that actually takes too much shit now. It should not have been nominated. Did it win? Did it win the Oscar?

Yeah. That's a tough one. But it's not like the worst movie that's ever been made. It has good performances. It's just the overall big picture theme is bad. It's not interesting. But there are good actors in that movie doing good stuff. It's just the movie itself is a little dicey.

Yeah. And then, I don't know, hustle and flow was when I think people thought, oh, it's going to happen. And then I think he had a lot of issues. So anyway. Yeah, he got a he got a, he got a, he got a, he got a, he got busy and hustling flow. Van, how do you feel about... I completely blanked to him in Clayers Club.

I don't remember. There's probably too much ass in the movie for me to remember anything. But anyway, go ahead, Bill. How do you feel about somebody thinking it was a good idea to have a scene where the music teacher, Dorky, Mr. Holland, had to teach the football player wrestler

how to dance in a montage scene? I have several issues with that entire thing. I have several issues. You wouldn't do that now or do it later? It's up to you. Let's do it now. Let's do it now. First of all, of course, he is the best halfback in the history of the school.

I can look at the school and tell that he is the best halfback that they've ever had. Okay? Before then, I can tell you what, they probably had a folk hero at halfback. A glue guy, a guy who goes that extra mile. And after this, they probably had a speedster. It's probably Gil Sayers to the whole damn school. That's right. And of course, that guy couldn't make the grade.

Why would he? Right? Why would that guy be able to make the grade? He can't make the grade. We got to teach him how to bang on the drum and get him the dog. The whole thing bothered the shit out of me. I'm sorry. I know that there are people that are going to be like, hey, it's Van doing it.

I can't help him. I am who I am, baby. It bothered me. The one guy, I didn't see another dude. Another, there was no more color in the movie, basically. And the one guy out they put in it in. And by the way, they like, they did a weird black thing. is in, okay, they said, hey, he's a halfback that has no rhythm.

Makes no sense. Makes no sense. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Being an athlete is all about being coordinated. The idea that fucking 50-year-old Richard Dreyfus needs to teach Terrence Howard how to dance is insane. It's insane. I don't know when I first noticed it in a major way and a major what are they thinking way, but probably around time number nine, we're like, wait a second.

Why can't the half-back dance? Yeah. Yeah, and by the way, I'm not saying that all football players can dance because a lot of them can't. But what I am saying is they can keep the beat with the drums, dog. They can keep the beat with the drums. Was he adopted? Like, was he one of the draft stories that we see where it's like, you guys see these draft stories and you guys love him? Where it's like a family from middle Tennessee or something like that.

And they're like, hey, we didn't know anything about Jerome. before we adopted him. We just looked and saw a seven-foot-tall, 12-year-old, and he looks like he needs a good home. Like, you know what I'm saying? So, but I don't get it. There was a cultural disconnect for me right there. So the whole thing.

But Terrence Howard, impossibly good-looking, charming, everything in the entire movie. Well, the movie set in Portland. Okay, well. There's no sense now. Yeah, there you go. $31 million budget made $106 million. Not only did Dreyfus get nominated,

the arrangement for Mr. Holland's opus, the actual song that they play at the end by Michael Kamen, won the 97 Grammy. Oh, wow. Roger Ebert, three and a half stars. I mean, no surprise. This is like right in his wheelhouse. I won't read the different quotes,

but he wrote a whole thing about how important teachers were to do that little thing. All right, we're going to take a break through the categories. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy,

seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu, chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. save at Whole Foods Market. Most rewatchable scene, our first category. I think one of the issues with this movie is we don't even have a rewatchable scene

until like the 35 minute mark, and then they start coming through. I would say the first one is when he breaks through with the redhead. Because you start rooting for the redhead because she does that whole thing where she goes, he's like, you know, this isn't for you. Don't play the clarinet. And she lists all the things that everyone in her family is good at. And she's like, I just want to be good at something. It's just a good scene.

It resonates. And then he finally breaks through her there. I like that part. Because it's fun? That's right. Because playing music is supposed to be fun. It's about heart. It's about feelings and moving people and something beautiful and being alive.

And it's not about notes on a page. I could teach you notes on a page. I can't teach you that other stuff. Do me a favor. Pick up your clarinet. and play with me. Okay. Uh, the football coach

yelling at Mr. Howland. Dwin, come on. I need him. A kid doesn't wrestle. It's not the end of the world. For him it is. If he doesn't wrestle, he doesn't have anything else. It's not about wrestling. I care about the kid.

Bill, how am I supposed to keep a kid in the band if he can't play an instrument? You teach him. You're telling me that you cannot teach a willing kid like Lou Roy. to bang a drum or something? I tried. No, you teach you.

I tried and I can't. Well, then you're a lousy teacher. This is your fucking job. You're supposed to help kids. Teach your music, you dick. Follow by the montage, which I kind of enjoy, even though it has the ridiculous thing where the halfback has no idea how to have any rhythm.

The whole Cole finding out he was deaf, subplot, I think is just really well done. That sequence is good. The parade and she looked. That's when the movie starts. to get like legit good. And then she tells him in the kitchen

and of course he's a dick about it. No, no, he's fine. Cole, Cole, cool. And the kid's just playing with toys. And then cutting to the classroom and he talks about Beethoven, that's a scene that shouldn't work. That seems excellent.

Yes. He tells that whole story. That's his best acting in the movie, in my opinion. When he is telling that story and he wanders off and they're trying to get his attention in the classroom and he's thinking about, you know, the relationship with his son. That part is really great.

He would lay down on the ground next to the piano with his ear pressed to the floor. And he would pound the keys with his fingers in order to hear his music through the vibrations of the floor. Mr. Holland? Mr. Holland? If he couldn't hear, how would he even know what the notes were? Mike, if he never heard a seat, how do you know that's what he wanted playing? Children was born dead. Shout out to the kitchen scene. I want to talk to my son.

Just because Glenn Headley, just going for the Oscar nom. She's really good in that scene, though. I don't know if anyone would have done better than that. I really like the stretch when the principal, Olympia Dukakis, who's great, tells Mr. Holland she's retiring. Mr. Holland, of all the teachers here at John Fennedy High School,

you're my favorite. That's the first time he breaks out the, I'm trying not to cry face. I'm just going to test this out for later when I really need it. And it goes right into the 70s montage with Jackson Brown. And it does the whole,

oh, now we got a little John Lennon. We've got to Vietnam. We've got some Watergate. Let's go through the... It's just really good. It works. All right, Rowena, problematic character. She's fucking great in this movie.

She's really, really good in the two songs where she sings. The first one, when they're doing rehearsals, They're like, what the hell is that? And it's just this person with this perfect voice. But when she sings someone to watch over me the second time, after he said to her, What do you think the girls really feel?

I don't know. You have to know. Or you can't sing it. This song is wistful, Miss Morgan. It's about a woman who is alone in a very, very cold world. And all she wants more than anything is to have. have someone a hold her and to tell her that everything's going to be all right it's about it which is actually really good advice it's one of the few times we see him teaching correctly um and she's really

belting it out and she's looking at him and he's getting emotional and they're having this moment and the wife figures it out as creepy as the whole thing is it's really good it's really uh a well-done scene and the voice has to be, she has to have an awesome voice and she can't lip sync and she performs that song and I think that's why it's good. Yeah. I know you want to say something, Van. You got something. I can tell you. Something's brewing over there. It is. I wonder though if some kind of way, if some kind of way that scene was some kind of, because that was during the time of Sonny Bono and Cher and all of these things and there was like, I wonder if they were saying something with that because there's no way that there's no way this is not college you know

there's no way that there was nobody that just went you guys think that maybe it would be cool if we didn't have him like almost leave his wife for one of his students like it you know because there was a there was a time there where I feel like things there were people looked at that kind of thing maybe differently I don't think it was that time I don't know But I'm just saying it's, it was so jarring to me now. I think part of his Gene Louise A Kelly, who plays Rowena, is like 24 in the movie. And she looks 24. Right.

She doesn't look like a kid. She doesn't look like a kid. You know, she looks like an adult. And she's beautiful. And she's obviously a great singer. And so the movie is trying to conflate these two things and almost like make you forget that you're in high school. It is trying to almost in a way make you feel like you're there in college or something

where it would be somewhat more acceptable. But on paper, it's straight up creepy. And also she represents something. She represents the part of him that he hasn't been in a long time. She represents someone who's going to leave this small town behind and go to New York and do all of these things. When they're talking together in the cafe. She has dreams. His dreams have already been kind of destroyed.

And he tells her, hey, you got to go for it. And he's saying that because he wishes that maybe he had done it. So he might not even be in love with her as if, as much as he's in love. with his former self, which she represents to him. I think the frustrating thing with the Rarina plot is that they actually could have done it correctly. There's just a couple tweaks that, you know, she could have represented all the stuff you just said without it kind of drifting into a place that shouldn't have drifted to. But I did Google.

I hope I got alert on my Google, but I did Google. I was trying to figure out what the age of consent was in Portland, Mr. Holland. Did this? Well, I was just curious. and with Snowden, everybody's got your shit now. I was just going to say that. FBI is knocking on your door right now, dude. I googled Portland Age of Consent, 1980.

1980. And it was 16. So I think that was Mr. Hollins' defense. He was like, hey, man. It was 16. In Portland. Yeah, it was 16. I bet you they researched that.

I bet they probably did. Yeah. So I thought that was a key fact. Do I regret Google again? Probably. Next we'll watch the scene, the beautiful boy scene, which Van said is just, it fucking works. It's good. And the fact that Dreyfuss's voice isn't good actually really helps it.

Beautiful. Personal fact about me, I am largely named because of this song. This is a song that John Lennon wrote for his son, Sean Lennon. And the song didn't even come out until after John Lennon. Lenin died. And this was one of my mom's favorite songs. And this is like a huge song in my life. Like I heard this song all the time growing up.

So you can imagine the emotional relationship I have to this scene, which is like absolutely pummeling. Like every time it happens, I'm totally not. You can knock me over with a feather when it plays. So wait a second. The song came out after John Lennon died. Yeah. I didn't learn that until this morning either.

And it. So does that mean Mr. Holland shouldn't have known the song? Because he sings it in the thing after John Lennon dies to his, was there enough time? I don't know because it came out in 81. I was born in 82. It was like a big song in that period of time. And I don't know.

You're right. Maybe that's a what's picking nits, I guess. Two more rewatchable scenes. Mr. Holland talked to the football coach when he finds out he got laid off. And this is right before the big ending scene. And he says, you work for 30 years because you think that what you do makes a difference. You think it matters to people. but then you wake up one morning and find out, well, no, you've made a little air there.

You're expendable. I should be laughing. It's really good. I think a lot of people over the years have probably felt that way, right? I thought I mattered more. I thought what I was doing was the real thing. Oh, I'm expendable. That scene just really works.

I think the last hour of this movie is excellent. And then the ending, just a home run. What's that noise in the auditorium? Hmm, let's go see. Oh, it's 500 people. including everyone I ever taught. Oh, they're going to play my opus. This is great.

Oh, here's the governor. All of it works. I always think of it as Dirk Diggler's mom has shown up to play clarinet and Mr. Holland's office. Like, what the hell is Dirk Degler's mom doing as the governor? I'm good at stuff. I'm good at stuff. I'm not just saying.

I'm getting things you don't know. I'm going to do something. I'm going to be something. You don't know what you see. I have. I have the ending is the most rewatchable. If we're close to the ending and I'm flipping channels

I'm watching the last 15 minutes of this. What do you guys have? I got the beautiful boy. Yeah, beautiful Cole. That's an amazing scene. What's age the best? We mentioned movies where people age over the course of a few decades.

I like when Mr. Holland gets confronted multiple times about Carymore about the students. I always enjoy these movies. You talked about the baby boomer movies where they always have people being pissed about rock and roll. Like it's this dangerous thing. The faculty is mad.

Mr. Hollins teaching rock and roll. I just like that that was a real thing. Young Terrence Howard and getting the Vietnam callback and going to the funeral, not realizing who died, and then seeing the parents, the call back to Terrence. It's just really effective. Mentioned Mr. Holland, explaining it as seeing someone watch over me. I thought his conducting skills were really believable.

I wouldn't know how you learn how to do that. Yeah, I don't know how you go to, you get out to the Walt Disney Concert Hall a lot, Bill? I just think he looked like he knew what he was doing. And I don't, unfortunately, there wasn't a lot of internet research for this movie. I'm guessing he must have studied with somebody to figure out how to do all of it.

Have you been studying tape of Gustav Dutamel and his work in the L.A. Phil recently? Maybe that's what it was. I enjoy the deaf sign for asshole. Oh, that's great. When Cole goes at him. And then I think the title is maybe the best title ever that easily could have doubled as a porn title

if you're just saying Mr. Hollis opus. It's a great title. If they did the porn parody of it, they don't have to change a thing. It's still called Mr. Hollins Opus. What else do you guys have for? No, it would be called Mr. Hollins O-Face. Oh, by the way, Sean, that's so good.

How did they not make that? If this movie came out of this, they probably did make it. It's not too late, guys. We can still call it. We can call browsers, you know, it can happen. Right. Let me Google it because I'm already screwed after I googled age of consent in Portland, 1980. Google's like, what the fuck is wrong?

Is this guy? 1980, Portland age of consent. Literally, there's some fucking analyst somewhere to win. Is it like, whoa. Watch this guy the next week. This is God. This would be a great fall for you, Bill. Like, you've accomplished so much and you went down because of this single.

Google. I just wanted to know. Let's try to defend Mr. Holland. Bill's in Guantanamo Bay like, guys. It was for the rewatchables. I had to. I had to figure out what the screenwriter was thinking. What's age to worst?

This movie's 143 minutes long. Long is shit. 143 minutes? God damn. Ideally, maybe 117 max. 118? That sounds perfect. It's way too long.

25 out? Right. Ugh. Another one's aged the worst. The entire bus station scene. Everything about it. I have questions include her parents were interested in taking her into the bus.

She's leaving right after the play. There's a midnight bus from Portland to New York City in this small tiny town. How many people are on this midnight bus on Saturday night from Portland, New York City? Is it packed? Hard to get tickets? There's an issue for me.

I thought they were in upstate. New York. No. That's what I thought. But like when you said that, I'm like, yo, she got a, she's going to be on the road for the next two months. She's stopping at every Arby's from here to Manhattan. It's going to take a long time. She's still on the bus. Was this the last day of school? Like, what was going on here? No. Not at all. Why does she have to go right away? Many people go study, you know, dramatic arts in school. How about graduating? Yeah. How about graduate? And she says to him, no, I'll never go if I don't do it right now, which is always the worst thing. excuse in a movie? Is she running away from home? What's happening? Maybe. I mean, maybe there might

be some deep down Rueina stuff that maybe she's trying to get away. Her parents wanted her to stay and take over the family restaurant. Oh, right. And she's trying to get away from that. But that still seems like something that you could probably do after graduation. You don't have to, you know, you can get your diploma first. And then the, uh, the almost kiss is just a complete unforced error. It makes me mad. Yeah. Such an easy cut. Just go to the bus station. She'd be like, hey, I'm not going to, with you. I'm old enough to be your father. But I, you know, I think you have a really special talent. Here's my friend. I played in a band with him. I told him, I told him and his wife, you're coming. And I think you're going to kill it. Good luck. Here's my thing about the kiss.

First of all, obviously don't kiss a 17 year old. No brainer. Secondarily, it's a really long kiss on a weird part of her face. That's like not her lips, but not her cheek. And the camera, is on her face while he's kissing like the side of her mouth. And it's just awkward. Like it's, there's nothing romantic or like fatherly or anything about it. It's just weird. And it draws more attention to the weirdest part of the movie.

Yeah. And also I, I find it very hard to believe that he would then go out and have these feelings, take that action and then name that after her. I just feel. like that whole part of it is just weird. It's like your girl goes to your text and she goes, oh, I see that you know a woman named

Sandra Garcia. Is this the same Sandra Garcia that you name that fucking painting after? You know what I mean? It's just such a big, huge thing that nobody would in that position would ever do. Maybe it would be called brown-haired girl or something, but it wouldn't be her name. So I had that as the next wood stage the worst. Mr. Holland as a potential adulterer. Names this song after the person he has the crush on,

which I guess the other title was School Girl I'm in Love With. He decided to rule that one out. Then the stammering explanation that Rorino was a Greek goddess, I don't know where he came up from that one. And then immediately says, hey, you're going to come to the play this weekend. You fucking moron. The play has a program. What are you doing?

What are you doing, Mr. Holland? This makes no sense, bro. Like, I almost broke my shit. This makes no sense. Hey, when should we come to the program? Hey, you know what? I wish you, but there's no reason for you to come to this one. I don't see why.

This one's kind of like, you know, football players going to be messing around. Yeah. But this one, you skip this one. No, he says, come the first night. I would have loved, this is one of the movie. I wish I had a button on my, I always wish this.

But I'll tell you guys right now. Sometimes I wish I had an all black cast button on my remote to where in mid-movie, you could change a movie to an all-black cast. I wish I had it. Do you know why? Because I would have liked to see the ride home from Mr. Holland and his wife

as played by Danny Glover and Angela Bassett. On the way home where Angela Bassett in the same waiting to exhale away goes, you fucking that bitch, ain't you? I know you fuck, you know what I mean? the whole, I would have liked to see that because there's no way. It's just so weird that he did that. Well, here's the thing, though.

You know, this is kind of like, this was kind of what marriage was like during this era, right? Where you had this one kid, you weren't there for your wife's childbirth. You didn't, you know, he's just in charge of everything. She can't even, like, get the kid to a private school. He might be having something going on with the high school kid. she can't even confront him about it because it was just, I guess, the era? I don't know.

It's certainly something that in 2020 would seem a lot otter. I think there would be a lot more communication. Yeah, in addition to it being a generational thing, let's not lose sight of the fact that Mr. Holland is a piece of shit. Just never forget. Well, I have another piece of that. Anti-Sign language.

I've never heard of that. So, John Lennon dies. his deaf son and it's like, hey, what's the matter? Mr. Holland goes, John Lennon died. You wouldn't understand. It walks away.

And it's just brutal. It's like, you fucking asshole. Why would you say that? You wouldn't understand. You can't hear. You wouldn't understand what a good musician John Lennon was. It's tough.

There's some tough Mr. Holland moments. I don't know why we... That is by far the funniest thing that you have been sending to us by a text message since we decided to do this movie out. Any other what's age the best for you other than the 90 things we've already mentioned?

Best or worse? I mean, what's age to worst? Yeah, sorry, what's age the worst? Well, okay, Mr. Richard Dreyfuss's career? I mean, this is like the last thing that he does of consequence, which is really weird

because he's nominated for an Oscar for this movie. And if you go through his career after this, and you know, like you said, he had been in, what about Bob? And he had been in a bunch of movies in the early 90s that were successful. And, you know, he shows up as, like, Dick Cheney and W. W.

Yeah. You know, Krippendorf's tribe and some shit like that. But why did his career basically nosedive after this movie? So I have some good half-fast internet research on that. Okay. Because he's young in this movie. He's only 49. Yeah, exactly.

He's young. If you're a QuickBooks customer looking to grow your business without the growing pains, you need the Intuit ERP. Upgrade to Intuit Enterprise Suite in a matter of hours. It's the AI Native ERP from the makers of QuickBooks. Learn more at Intuit.com slash ERP Casting what ifs

couldn't find any Best That Guy aka the Joey Pants Award Jay Thomas is not a guy I don't think so Not to us Could you give that

To Baltazar Getty? Once upon a time Balthazar Getty was not a that guy He was Balthasargetty But I feel like he has Reverted To that guy

Shout out to Balt My homie Why? That's interesting Like that could be a thing I think He could be good with that too retroactive that guy.

Yeah. I'm with that. I like that call. Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for best overacting. Teenage Cole, really dialed it up.

Teenage Cole really went for it in his couple scenes. Deanne Waiter's Award, for me, Roena is really good. As problematic as that whole plot is,

she's excellent. Jean-Louisa Kelly and then Terrence Howard. It's one of those two. I think it has to be Rowena because she's only in the movie for 15 minutes. She's got to nail every song. And if that part doesn't work,

this whole movie completely unravels. Can I give a nod to how OneNote William H. Macy is in this movie? I don't know how we, but we have to acknowledge One Note Macy in this movie. Well, isn't that it's kind of his, he's supposed to represent the uptight crew cut 60s, right? He almost can't have a personality. It works.

I'm just saying, like, this is an interesting time for him because this is around, this is when I'm starting to go, oh, that's William H. Macy, because this is around the same time as Fargo. Maybe Fargo's a little bit before this. The cool. Right. Right after. Yeah. And so, like, this is around the time that it starts to happen.

So I remember watching this movie and then expecting a little bit more out of him. Oh, this is all he's going to do. Okay, cool. He's a year away from, my wife hasn't. ass or a cock in the driveway, okay? I'm sorry if my mind wasn't on the lighting, okay? RIP, Little Bill, little Bill, one of the all-time grades. Think of the movie through his eyes.

Think of the movie through his character's eyes. This new teacher comes to school. He's a music teacher. He's a former musician. He's a complete asshole. He doesn't care about his students. It's William H. Macy's job to get this guy to fall in line. This guy finally falls in line after a decade of not paying enough attention to his students.

And what does he do, but he falls in love with a 17-year-old under William H. Macy's watch. That's a managerial nightmare. Mr. Holland terrorized this William H. Macy character for 30 fucking years. And that's why he got the chop at the end of the movie. It was justice. Oh, my God.

Who are for Dian Waders? Rowena or Terrence Howard? Rowena. Roina, yeah. Yeah. All right. No Olympia Dukakis. No Olympi Dukakis.

She's really good. She's definitely a medalist. Recasting couch. I'm with Sean. the Boogie Nights mom, it's too weird, or is the governor? Joanna Gleason? Shave before you do that. I just keep waiting here to, like, just be an asshole to everybody.

Joina Gleason, who I like. I was going to say Julian Moore, as the governor, would have been a good one. Yeah, that would have been dope. Right point in her career, too, yeah. Have fast internet research. Every person in the film that portrayed a deaf person was deaf in real life. They're way ahead of their time with that. now it's like if you didn't have every character being people lose that would be a whole thing on

I do think that this movie I mean I was you know I was 13 when this came out I do think that this movie did a lot to kind of educate people about what it's like for someone who's deaf like yeah I don't I don't think that's a small thing I think it created like a level of sensitivity there's obviously lots of movies and TV shows about this over the years but when something that is this mainstream that put put something like that so in the center it's actually helpful it's actually the first time I ever considered it really because and it was through the love of Mr. Holland, everything that he, his whole life was built around one sense, really. It's the way he kind of saw the world and the way he interpreted the world and the way the world made sense to him. And then I always thought

it was just like such a nut kick that that's the one thing he can't share with his son. So yeah, it's kind of the first time I looked at it like that. Yeah, it's like if Bill had a son who was blind, but only for the Patriots. He couldn't see the Patriots do anything. the Patriots, do anything. Tom Brady being the best ever, yeah. Half-Fast Center Research, Gene Louisa Kelly did all our own singing and dancing. Interesting.

In this movie, and was a trained singer-dancer actress. She was a little older, as Sean pointed out. Do you know that she is now the first lady of ESPN? I didn't know this. Is that a fact? She's Jimmy Patero's wife. Oh, I didn't know that. I may or may not have gotten in a conversation with them,

at the ESP's one of those after parties late night where I did a 10-minute monologue about Mr. Holland and what a pervert he was. I'm not positive she enjoyed it. Hard to believe you don't work in the ESPN anymore. It was after I left. The Richard Dreyfus cocaine stuff. So I really had trouble finding good research on this.

So I went into, I did a little Richard Dreyfus mini deep dive. His cocaine problem was so bad that he has like legit memory loss. He doesn't remember filming whose life is it anyway. He doesn't remember basically a lot of the 80s. And I guess by the time we got in the 2000s, I couldn't remember lines

and did this Broadway play, I think in the last 10 years where he needed an earpiece for somebody to read the lines and then he got savage for that. But I think so I think like the cocaine really fucked him up. So your answer of like what happened to him

after 95. I think he was fucked up by the cocaine thing. That's sad. I did read that story about him at the old Vic where he needed the earpiece to perform.

Apex Mountain. Obviously, no for Richard Dreyfus, but could we go second career Richard Dreyfus Apex Mountain? Or would you go stakeout or what about Bob? I would say this.

I'd say this too. This is a big, huge, tour de force star-centric film. It doesn't get any better than this if you're rich. your dry fist and turns on the back half of your career. This was a big movie. I mean, when you make over a hundred million bucks in the 90s, that's a legitimately

big movie. I think it was a family movie and most people went. Gene Louisa Kelly, so she was on yesterday for like eight years. I don't know. Probably, I don't know. I don't know which one. Jay Thomas, definitely because he was also on Murphy Brown right around the same time, right? So high school teacher movies.

Wow. So I guess you'd have stand and deliver, dangerous minds. What was the one with Sam Jackson? I'm blanking. 187. 187. There's a whole bunch of them.

It's a gigantic amount that we're not even thinking of lean on me. Lean on me. So the case for this one, I guess, would be that he did get nominated, which I don't know if that's happened with another. high school teacher movie. I'm sure that there's one. No, what James almost did.

Oh, yeah, you're right. So I would say that because that was an important movie. And also, like, there were so few movies with Latino characters and... Plus, the guy was a real guy. And he was a real guy. Yeah. Big Blue Diamond Phillips run there. I don't know.

I would probably go there. Hoosiers? Is Hoosiers count here? I think of him, like, he's like a coach more than that. If we saw throwing the coaches in there, then we're really... Yeah. Then did I not have Coach Carter's in there. The trying not to cry face, I really do feel like this was Apex Mountain.

I don't feel like anybody has ever done it better than Dreyfus. I don't know how he repeatedly pulls it off in the best possible way, where you just feel like he's going to unravel, but he doesn't, but he's whimpering, and it's just, it's great. The song, Someone to Watch Over Me in a Movie. So I think it's this in the finals with the movie, someone to watch over with Tom Barriger and Mimi Rogers. They made the movie with Tom Barringer

Tommy B. So I think that's Apex Mountain because not only is it the title, but they play the song four different times during the movie and then there's a really pivotal scene. I really like that movie. It's a Ridley Scott for the people out there that are just like, hey, I'm out of movies during month 10 of the pandemic. I'm going to move into the 80s and watch weird. That's actually a good one to pull out. I think it's streaming on Showtime

because I was just looking at it the other day and I was like, should I watch this now? Is it Mimi Rogers time? That movie, she's great. I still have my stock from her in that movie. It's a rough last 15 minutes. Yeah. But that movie's really good.

Any other Apex Mountain? Because everyone else, the answer would be no. Unless you want to go Portland, Oregon. Well, can we just talk with Stephen Herrick very quickly? Yeah. Underrated director figure of the 80s and 90s? First movie, Critters. Pretty fun 80s horror movie.

Love it. Next movie, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. After that, don't tell mom the babysitter's dead, a personal classic for me. This man is a legend.

After that, the Mighty Ducks. This dude is a fucking legend. How do we, like, we need to do, this dude is a, I never knew that you're breaking news

right here, Sean Finn. This dude is a fucking legend. Stephen Herrick. He has a resume. I never, never even cared to give a fuck about his name or anything like that,

but that is a legend. run of movies right there. So what happened? What was the movie? Anytime we have a run like that, there's always the movie where the wheels come off. So his next film is another Disney movie, The 101 Dalmatians

adaptation with Glenn Close, which whatever, we don't care about it here, but it was a big hit. And then he makes a little movie called Holy Man starring Eddie Murphy. That was it. Which, by the way, I don't mind that movie, but it definitely was a huge disaster. It was a disaster.

Yeah. We're doing a spinoff podcast called Van defends every Eddie Murphy movie that's ever been made. It's going to be 50 movies. I am the biggest Eddie Murphy fan ever, and there's seven movies I can't defend. But I feel like Van can do it. I'll go there with you with double team, Metro,

Meet Dave, line them all up. Metro, I have defended. I have actually gotten in arguments about Metro. Metro's a good movie. Metro is funny good movie. Metro is funny good movie. Norbin? Pluto Nash can't be defended.

Pluto Nash is a little harder. but actually the most indefensible one is not any of those to me. In my opinion, the most indefensible one is the one where it's him and the little girl and the tree. You know what I'm talking about? Oh, the recent one. Yeah, it wasn't too long ago. Yeah. And it was like, um, and I tried,

Mr. Johnson or something. Or something like that. I tried to get through it and I could not get through that movie. I remember I had to watch. I think I was writing a review on it and the review was very, very, very short. My editor's super mad. But I could not get through that movie.

Was it Mr. Church? Was that it? No, it wasn't Mr. Church. It was one where it was like, it was something about, he had to, every time he lied. Oh, imagine that. Imagine that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was fucking abhorrent. But like most Eddie Murphy movies with Eddie's on the screen, you have a good time, baby. This is, it could be your spin-off podcast. Now that the wire way down the hole is finally wrapped. It's been next one. Defending Eddie. Defending Eddie.

It rips through the 25 worst Eddie Murphy movies. It explains why they're classics. I'm with it. Pickin' Nits. We mentioned a couple. We stepped on a few of these. I guess one for me, it hints. Rowena has that scene with Mr. Holland

where they're working on something in the office a little late. About a piano. And then the football player comes in. He's like, hey, Ro, we going? And she's like, I got to go. And it makes you think, like, she's really attracted to her 50-year-old music teacher over like the football quarterback.

Right. Like what the fuck? This does happen. I mean, this does happen. Oh, it happened at my high school. It happened in my high school. Like, it happens. Like, it happened at my high school.

You know, with a person who did not look like a football player, a 50-year-old teacher. Like, it happens. Right. Well, I know it happens. My dad was the superintendent. It definitely happens. It happens a little more often than maybe.

All right, here's my big nitpick. This is one of the biggest nitpicks I've ever had on a rewatchables podcast. So I'm going to set it up there. So Mr. Holland's packing up his office. He's just had the emotional moment with Jay Thomas, the football coach. It's time to go. Cole and the wife show up. Hey, dad, I got the car.

Honking the car. Parking that's basically empty. Come on up. I'm carrying a couple boxes. Hey, what's that noise? There's 500 people in the auditorium. How the fuck does he not find out? I mean, all of that.

I love this scene. This is my favorite scene in the movie. But what were the odds, first of all, that everybody snuck in on time? I have never even seen a 50-person surprise birthday party get pulled off correctly. What are the odds? 500 people from different generations could be in the gymnasium.

And all sneak in there. Where are they parking? How does he not know? How did they hide it from him? So we got that. The governor shows up and gives like a really mean speech. She gives this speech by Mr. Ron and she's like he wanted to be rich and famous.

But he's not rich and he's definitely not famous. What the fuck? It's my worst nightmare. I'm at my eulogy, somebody is like, look, Sean wanted all of these things for himself. You know, he wanted to be really. successfully wanted to be considered a great man, and he wasn't. He wasn't any of those things. But he was nice to me, and I appreciate that. That's fucked up. Right. Then she reveals the band. He breaks out the, I'm trying not to cry face again.

And this band, who I'm assuming has not rehearsed, all these people are shitty musicians in high school who just did it to get a credit, who haven't picked up an instrument in 20 to 30 years. They now launch into this perfect, you know, this could be the Boston Phil Armada. on July 4th. Of the song they had never played. That's right. Because it's the first time anyone's ever heard it.

Yeah. How are they getting all the instruments in? Again, Mr. Holland just doesn't know any of this is happening. It sounds like pitch perfect Aaron Copeland. It's bizarre. Right. The odds of all of this happening,

I'm going to say, are 1,0001. Just all of those beats where they pull this off and actually played Mr. Holland's opus well. A thousand and one, maybe higher. Right. I agree. I agree.

Next category, could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? I actually think that's a good idea. It should be remade, yeah. I think Netflix should do, or one of the streamers, should do a show about a teacher over the course of time, I think, would be a show I would watch. That's a got of each season is a new decade. Yeah. Hey, if you love the rewatchables, you probably love great TV. And if you love great TV, I'm sure you love The Wire.

It's one of the four best TV shows of all time. I don't know where it ranks in your top four or your top five, but for me, it's on the Mount Rushmore. Well, we finished the wire way down in the hole with Van Lathen and Jamel Hill. They did the last episode. It was an awards episode for the last episode of season five. So they did all five seasons, ripped through every episode, every storyline, every winner and loser.

They flipped the show around, made me think about things that, frankly, hadn't thought about. And I watched the show from start to finish, I think three times. The wire way down in the hole, you can find it wherever you get your favorite podcast. It's really good. You can deep dive into it. You can just listen to the first and last episodes of each season. However you want to do it, I would recommend listen to the whole thing because it's really great.

The wire way down in the hole, it is finished, a completed series wherever you get your podcasts. Probably unanswerable questions. Are we sure the final opus song was good? I think it's intentionally done that way to make us. So it's, it is, but it's so kind of wacky with the electric guitar and all of that stuff like that, that you can almost see why nobody ever got him as a musician. Oh, I like that. You can almost see, I think the song ends up being a music teacher's opus. So it sounds to me like the kind of music that you hear when you go to Disneyland.

Like if you go on Soren, which is a ride in which it's a ride in which it's, seems like you're flying in a plane. You like Sorin? I love Sorin. Oh, Jesus. I liked it better when it was Soren over California. I know. That was better.

Not as Soren over the world, I still fuck with it. Wow, did not know you were Disneyland head. We have a lot to talk about, Van. Yeah, of course. But Soren, they have this like triumphant soundtrack that's like ostensibly good, but also kind of cheesy. And I feel like that's the Mr. Hollins' Opus vibe. Triumphily be good, but cheesy.

Yeah. Have you been on this ride? No, but that's, I love the explanation. It's amazing. Another in answerable question. More uptight William H. Mason character. Principal Walters or Little Bill a year later?

Well, Little Bill was working on porn sets. So that in and of itself means he's a little bit more. You know what I mean? Little Bill was working on porn sets. I love this pod as a shadow Boogie Nights pod. It's incredible. Never could have seen that coming. A lot of crossover.

So he at least has to be a little bit more, a little bit looser, going then the principal the principal crew cut would never be on the point set my wife has an ass in her cock in the driveway okay i'm sorry i'm not up on the lighting all right this is why we can't do the boogie nights pot because it would be eight hours great it would actually we should just do a script rating of boogie nights that could be the rewatchable pod we just we just do the whole script wonderful i'm in i'm playing uh dirk digler's mom yeah i have some incredible three more incredible unanswerable questions. First one.

Are we sure the football coach wasn't gay? He was with a different chick every time. Was he? What? Like, I want to hear it. I want to hear it. They have this scene where he's like, why haven't you settled down yet? And it's like, oh, you know, it's like,

but it's this generational movie where they're kind of sweeping stuff under the rug. And I was like, I was wondering, at no point do we see the football coach with a wife, right? I know what you're doing. This is because of the modern dance. Oh. Oh, I didn't even think of that. I just didn't know if they, he was like, it was like a stealth gay subplot that they didn't want to dress,

but we were supposed to figure it out. Right. I don't, I don't think so, but it's interesting. You know, he was in the service. So maybe there was a whole,

you know, that deleted scene from American Beauty type of thing going on. But like, yeah. Who knows? I got to say, Bill, this has just never crossed my mind. And that's why you're an elite podcast. I'm going to go up a notch. Is this a better movie of William H. Macy, after Mr.

Hollins opus, the song, they finished performing it, he goes on stage and says, I've changed my mind. The music program's back, and everybody cheers. And that's our ending. Explain this to me. This is what I need an explanation of. If you know the governor, how can you not get some money unasked to keep the music program going at your school? Look, Gov, I don't need you to come to the school and say nice words about me, Gov. Sort of nice words. Right, sort of nice words. I know the governor.

I taught you, you probably wouldn't be the governor if not for me. So how would you help us with the budget? Like the governor is like your fault at the end of the day. day that we're going through what we're going through. Like, it's a weird thing. She was like, Mr. Hollins, you didn't turn out, you didn't become famous and you're not rich. And I'm not helping with your budget.

I'm not helping with your budget. But this is your opus. You broke, motherfucker? If you know anything about Portland, too, there's no way Portland, a Portland high school is cutting its music program. Zero percent chance. Yeah, you're right. That's a great, that would have been, that's a great nitpick.

All right. These two are really important. would you have invited William H. Macy to the final goodbye? No. Yeah. Why is he there? Why is he in the front row? When they cut to him, I was like, how did this happen?

What, fuck this guy? It's your fault, dog. You ruined everything. You ruined my whole thing. You ruined my whole shit. This was the only thing I had. This was all I had. I gave up.

And why would he want to go? Why would he even want to be there? It's like, hey, cool. Yeah, I'd love to go. I'd love to say goodbye to Mr. Holland after I brutally asked him. Right. Final and answerable question. Is this a better or worse movie if Rowena is at the final opus?

Oh. Hmm. She's suspiciously not there because Mrs. Holland was like, fuck that. I'm not, we're not inviting. We're not inviting Rowena. She is not invited. I do sometimes like to think of the movie. I do sometimes in the movie think about Rowena's future, though.

Because we never get anything. We assume that Rowena didn't make it. But maybe she did. Did Rowena go to New York and get eaten up by the city? That's a whole movie itself right there. Did she? It's a good, it's a pre, postquil. Post-quel.

Like a sequel, but not really a sequel. Yeah. Can I ask one more unanswerable question? Yeah. Is it okay to name your kid Coltrane, Gershwin, Holland? Like, that's pretty, that's pretty whack. It's pretty un-those. No, that's why Mr. Holland kind of sucked.

Do you think on the way home from the opus he was, they're driving back and he was like that was great. Thanks for it's just so awesome that you were going to and said hey did you invite Rowena or did she no I didn't invite your whore once again

another perfect all black cast button moment like you just press I'm telling you this is technology you just press it shifts all the actors around and all of a sudden riding home I don't know you got Sam Jackson You know what I'm saying? Who is Rowena?

Megan Good? Yeah. No, it's Regina King. What are you talking about? Right. And then you do the whole thing like, oh, so you expected me to invite your whore. Yeah.

Because you're going away from it. Okay. Van, you laugh, but with the face swap technology that is getting better and better, 20 years for now, we might be able to flip that switch. You like the all black cast?

Oh, I think it's great. I think about it all the time. I have an all white cast button too. Like, I have an all-white cast button. Sometimes I think, I'm watching Friday. And I'm going, who would play Smokey if this was an all-white cast? And I wish I could just hit a button and switch it and just take Friday and make it all-white.

Just see the hijinks that would ensue. Is it Seth Rogen? Who knows? I used to have a running joke of my calm about instead of when they make sequels, like when they do the Bad News Bears, they remake it basically with Billy Bob Thornton. and it's the same movie, but much shittier. And I would be like, why don't they just, like, if you're going to remake the movie, make it with an all-black cast.

And then they basically did that with Caddyshack, and it was terrible. They did it with Caddric the entertainer. They did it with, uh, they actually did it with still Magnolias. Like, they actually did it still Magnolias where it was all-black. A couple times it's kind of worked, though. Like, I actually thought the about last night, all-black cast rebake was pretty good.

Yeah. I was still waiting for the big chill. Did you see that one with Kevin Hart? I did see it. I was waiting for the big chill one. The big chill one would be good. They were talking about doing it. The wood is kind of like that.

A little bit. Isn't the wood like kind of like the big chill? Kind of, but like it's more around one specific moment. I want to see that same because one thing that doesn't really happen and it's a tangent. But one thing that doesn't really happen is they make films about the big chill about everybody being. They're very nuanced, a very character-driven. They don't really let us get down like that a lot. Just everybody in the room, all their regrets, all their baggage together.

Let's watch it play out over the course of a couple of days. I would like to see more stuff like that. We could do an entire podcast feed, spin off of the rewatchables, of movies that tried to rip off the big show and it didn't work. We'd be like, all right, today we're covering Indian summer. Summer camp, everybody's back. I fuck with that movie. Wait, this didn't work. I like that movie, though.

I got to be able to. What piece of memorabilia? would you want from this movie? Ooh. Wow. Probably Dreyfuss's mustache. Maybe his mustache. Or maybe.

How about a movie movie used conductor stick from the final opus? Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the sheet music? The sheet music. There's something else about this

that I would want. I will want because there's one thing that proves just how narcissistic Holland is. And it's the fact that he makes himself the drum major of the band. That never happens. Why would a teacher be the band's drum major?

Drum major, where I'm from in Baton Rouge, is a coveted band position. And it goes to the suavest kid in the school. So I won his drum major uniform since he, a 45-year-old man, made himself the drum major of a high school band. Hey, that opus was awesome. I really, that whole thing was great. I'm just curious. Did you ask for Rwina if she wanted to be?

Let you go. Go see your whore. Did he fight the reach out? Had a great ending. Yeah. I have one more thing. She's like I, no,

one apex mountain. We missed. Sean Stockman's solo singing career. Oh, yeah. So, that's weird that he has a solo song on this.

This was a big moment. Sean Stockman does visions of a sunset for the soundtrack. And remember at this time, boys to men was hot like fire. Fire. It's very possible.

Shout out to Sean Stockman, who is one of the four best voices I've ever heard. It's very possible that if visions of a sunset becomes like a number one smashed, unbelievable hit, then maybe he goes solo. But no other boys to me and guys ever really did in that way.

So every time I think about this movie, I think about the fact that, like, that was a big, huge, huge moment. I feel like people always said, Wanié would be the one to go solo too and not Stockman. I really like boys to men. I also like calling me bad.

Shoot me. Who won the movie? That killed me. We've really gone to some special places here. Puggy Nights calling me bad. What the fuck? You've just been waiting to get that one off? Like, that just came out of nowhere.

It was like, yo, I like boys to me. Fuck, I also like calling me bad. Fucking sue me. I thought that was a strong, strong stretch here in the, in the first half of the 90s with multiple guys singing together that gave us some good music. That would have been incredible if at the end of Mr. Holland's opus, when he gets on stage to conduct the final song and it's just, I want to sex you up. And that was his opus. Hey, listen, did boys to men ever get their own episode on 902 and O? The answer is no.

Color me bad. They did. They did. So there you go. Sean, who won the movie? Got to be Dreyfus, right? I mean, this is the caper on his career. Academy Award nominated, and he's great in the movie. Yeah. I think you can make a tiny case for teachers

that teachers finally have their movie that they could kind of point to and be like, hey, man, I put in 38 years. Yeah. You know, at the end, I got to watch. You deserve the chance to make out with one of your students because you put in all this hard work. that might be good way to end it

all right so Sean we can hear you on the on the big picture van I guess we'll have to announce the next thing you're going to be working on other than higher learning because wire way down in the hole is done

but if you love the wire yeah congrats that podcast was awesome I love just real quick thanks to everybody that was involved thanks, Bill, because that was so much fun to do. To rewatch The Wire, thanks to Jamel, man.

It was fantastic. Fantastic. All right. Well, if you want to re-listen to that whole podcast, it's all laid out. You can watch the Wire, and then you can listen to the episode for each one, and then there's winners at the end of every season, the whole thing. I continue to think season five was underrated. Anyway, Mr. Hans Hopis, this was fun.

We will see you in 2021 here on the... the rewatchables. We have some good ones coming up. Once football ends, we're going to stack February, March, and April with some big ones. So stay tuned for that. Thanks to producer Craig, where are you? Yo.

Craig, thanks for another strong year from you. I like the mixture of tiny disdain for some of the choices and then just outright, what the fuck are we really doing this movie? Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm the injection of youth into the show. Yeah, well, maybe next year there will be a couple good ones. I've been working on the list. I'm very excited for some of the choices. So anyway, good to see you guys.

We will see you in 2021. All right, that's it for the rewatchables. Man, we did a lot of movies this year. I'm going to read you every movie title we did, and you can find them all on Spotify. Ready? This is starting from back in January 2020. Here are all the movies we did this year. Unstoppable.

And King of New York, we did both of those with Quentin Tarantino. Chris Ryan and I did the reheat. We did the heat for the second time. Once upon a time in Hollywood did that in front of a live studio audience. Breakfast Club, higher learning, vision quest, oceans 12. Then we did contagion on March 9th. That was right when it started to feel like the pandemic was getting serious. We had no idea.

Godfather 3. Castaway, did that one on March 19th by myself. That was the only self podcast we've done on the rewatchables. The Karate Kid, Fast and Furious 7. Tommy Boy. Total recall, enemy of the state, basic instinct, love and basketball, Ferris Bueller, Ronan, escaped from New York while you were sleeping, gladiator, Groundhog Day, Crimson Tide, Draft Day, Back to the Future, Armageddon, Boomerang, Say Anything, Fletch, the Perfect Storm, San Elmo's Fire,

Swingers, Stand by Me, 25th hour, The Conjuring, Ghost, the Sandlot, Teen Wolf, Last the Mohicans, Bad Boys, Caddyshack, up the volume. A podcast so important, it inspired Amazon Prime to put pump up the volume on Amazon Prime. So there, you can go find it. One of the reasons we did that podcast was you couldn't find that movie anywhere. Well, now you can find it. Forty-year-old virgin cocktail, dangerous minds, usual suspects, unfaithful, easy A, seven. The game, kicking and screaming, the good one, not the welfare one. The Martian, Spotlight. Rocky Four and the Exist. We did that in the same week. The American President, Toy Story, Home Alone, 8mm, Wall Street, the program, Country Strong,

the most polarized one we've ever done. The Born Ad Identity, Can't Speak, and Mr. Holland's Opus today. That was the entire list of movies we've done in 2020. And we have some really good ones coming for 2021. Just trust me. We want this feed the last 10 years. You got to mix it up. Can't do The Godfather every week.

Thanks for listening. Thanks to supporting this podcast. We will see you next week with the brand new rewatchables in 2021. Looking forward to it. Thanks for supporting the podcast.