The Rewatchables - ‘Ocean’s 12’ With Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Amanda Dobbins

Episode Date: March 5, 2020

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Amanda Dobbins thought they all agreed to call it "the Bellagio job" before they rewatched ‘Ocean’s 12,’ the third movie in our Flawed Rewatchables series, starring George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Matt Damon, and Julia Roberts, directed by Steven Soderbergh. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Look, it's a no-brainer. Go out and get the insurance you deserve. Get State Farm, like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Get a quote or find an agent at StateFarm.com. Sean. Do I look 50 to you? This is the rewatchable is Ocean's 12.

Yeah. I want my money back. The money that you friends stole from me. $160 million with interest. I'm not the only person in the world looking for oceans 11. Huh. We need a job. We need a high-paying job.

Well, now we're too hot to work anywhere in this country. Where are we going? What are we stealing? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great day when I get to podcast for these two. It's Sean Fennacy, Amanda Dobbins. I'm Chris Ryan.

We're here to do the rewit. Watchables, Oceans 12. A flawed rewatchables. Is it? Well, we're going to get into that. We've been given this assignment, should we choose to accept it. I feel like this podcast may explode in our hands. Let's talk about Oceans 12, released December 2004, three years after Oceans 11, directed by Steven Soderberg and written by George Nolfe. Shot by Soderberg under a assumed name, a stage name.

Is it the Peter name? Peter Andrews. Yeah. And scored by long-term Soderberg collaborator David Holmes, this Southwark. soundtrack is full of bangers. It was budgeted at $110 million, and Soderberg would later call it one of the biggest budgeted stoner movies of all time. It made $362 million worldwide. And we're talking about this in terms of it being a flawed rewatchables, I think, because it was received rather tepidly when it was released in 2004, and there are a lot of reasons for that.

You mean critically? Yeah. I think critically, but I think that also like the, if you want to get into the sort of fan reacts. I think that a lot of people were like, that wasn't, that wasn't Vegas, bro. As we have learned on podcast, we should always trust the fan reactions. What fan reactions were you on the boards? I was, so funny you should mention that.

I did go to some boards. I did go to some like early Quora style, like Yahoo Answers type responses to this movie. That's really where you look for the truth. In 2004, I'm sorry, did Quora exist in 2004? Well, whatever that version of it was. So it's like archived. Yeah.

Like web. Like web. Archive. I just got the sense that people were like, there are a lot of flaws to like the logic of this movie and to, you know, the heist and stuff like that.

I have some theories about why people felt like this was flawed, but I don't want to start off on that foot. We can get into that. Let's talk about why we love this movie. Amanda. Perhaps no one has built a higher condominium building on Ocean's 12 corner than you. That is true.

We, the three of us did a soda bar, Soderberg podcast maybe a year ago now. And it was in my top five Soderberg. I love this movie for several reasons. The first being, I think this is actually one of the great sequels. And this is a sequel about sequels. I mean, it's right there in the plot. Yeah. They got to do another job, but it's got to be bigger. And now there are two villains instead of one. And they got to figure it out. And I think because it is Soderberg, it's very smart and commenting on the process of of making movies and also what we expect from sequels. And, you know, to your friends on the fan board's points, it is absurd at times.

I mean, you know, I don't recommend that you try to steal a Faberge egg based on the heist in this movie. I don't know that it's going to go well for you. Yeah. But that in and of itself is like a comment on, I mean, sequels are always ridiculous because you just have to keep, like, anying up and doing more over-the-top things to, like, keep the plot going. Sure. In addition to that, and that's just like smart movie shit. That's why Soderberg is still number one in my house.

And then number two, I mean, this is just like a movie as pleasure principle. Absolutely. And it is also very specifically Amanda's pleasure principles. And I do also think it's really maybe even more than Ocean's 11 movie as Star Study. Yeah. Because obviously in the first one, it is about the charisma of everyone involved and the cast but they're kind of discovering that chemistry and that hang in real time. And this is like, oh, you want to hang out with some movie stars in Europe?

Here you go. Yep. Sean, why do you love this movie? I think because I don't have to think that hard about it. I think it's sort of the opposite of a lot of what we do on this podcast and a lot of other podcasts we do. It's just kind of a lushe, jazzy, goofy, euro, very, very Euro movie-influenced movie. and even though the stakes are ostensibly Danny Ocean and his band of Mary Thieves

might get murdered by Terry Benedict, it never even really feels that way. It never feels desperate. Yeah, the stakes are serious. Yeah, it never feels like there's going to be any real consequences. Yeah, and I think that that might have been held against it in the past,

but as you turn the movie on at 9 p.m. on a Monday night, 16 years after it was made, it's much better that it isn't this tense ball of anxiety, that it is actually just a really a, a fun hang you said last night when we were talking about it you just you love to hang out with this movie which i thought was such a smart way of describing the feeling that it gives you it's like a friend you know it's not it's there's no the tension is so modest that it's easy to return to which is obviously

the literal premise of this show um i have always been baffled by its it's um complicated reputation i think it's like pretty easy to understand right on its face it's really uncomplicated that's the whole point of it what about you chris i think that I think it might be his most achingly beautiful movie. I think the first hour of it, especially the Amsterdam stuff, is some of the most gorgeous stuff I've seen in a blockbuster aimed movie. And I think he kind of agrees. In 2014, he told Huffington Post in terms of shock construction,

cutting patterns, the use of music. From a filmmaking standpoint, that's the best of the three. So he is very affectionate towards Oceans 12. Now, in the promo run for Oceans 13, there was like a kind of fun gag going on where a lot of people were asking Clooney about this, but that Soderberg had apparently said, Ocean's 13 should have been called the one we should have made last time and that it was somehow a correction for 12. But to me, going back, I find 12 to be perhaps the most rewarding of the three. I think one is like perfect and then goes in like a box somewhere where you're like, there's nothing, you can't improve that movie. there's nothing wrong with it. They captioned lightning in a bottle.

But 12 is kind of messy and has loose ends and untied shoelaces. And I kind of love that about this movie. You know, I think it's really, really kind of European for a Hollywood movie. 100%. Yeah. It's like got this enwi and like kind of like jet lagged, depressed. It's like if Jean-Pier-Melville had a sense of humor. Yeah.

That's what the movie is. It's like the way that the movie is made and all this stuff that you said that he is proud of, the cutting. And there's so much Zoom. and the grain in the film, but even just the atmosphere that he creates, the setting of the movie, the hotel room hangouts

that are happening throughout the movie. Yeah. It is, it is, Your Honor, it is Oceans 11's European vacation. Like, that is what the movie really is. And I think that, like, the, obviously, for whatever reason in 2004, this didn't occur to me.

But it's like the first hour, this movie is stoned out of its mind. Like, that Amsterdam vibe of them is, feels very like, It's literally what if we raised the building? Yes. That's literally the plan and then they do it. So, yeah.

I think that the other thing I would point out about this one, even though it has that weird kind of sometimes like sort of longing or wistful feel to it, is that these are movies about friendship. And for as much as I think that the Oceans movies are sometimes viewed as Soderberg's one for them that he would do, like the ones he would do so that he could make Che or he could make Solaris or whatever. he told having to post for all of their

fizzy, frothy surface, the subjects, you know, the subjects of these movies are things I take very seriously. Anybody knows me will tell you

that my friends are really important to me and being good at my job and trying to be better at my job is really important to me. What a cool idea

for a trilogy of blockbusters. It does make me think though that the thing that differentiates the two movie is the first two is that the first movie,

which is clearly a job for everybody involved, feels like a heist. And the second movie is a grift. It's a conman movie. It's not a heist movie in a lot of ways. And we are the marks in a way. Because at the end of the movie, we're like,

everything you saw was this a show. Yeah. Okay. So, why don't I make the case against this movie? I was going to say, I think some of, we have to do some devil's advocate work. Otherwise, it's going to be three people just celebrating one another's love of something. Okay. You two made you the devil's act. All right.

I will make the case against Ocean's 12 as a flawed rewatchable. You're not making the case against it. You are identifying some flaws while appreciating. I am method acting an Ocean's 12 hater right now. I went on the boards last night to practice. But I've constructed my entire life to not meet people like the person you're about to play. Well, Amanda. Okay. I'm not getting paid enough for this. My name is Briss Brian and I hate Oceans 12 and this is why. On initial

viewings, it can seem contrived and bored with itself. And it seems like a sequel to the Ocean's 11 press tour rather than Ocean's 11. I love that. It's got lots of meta jokes about Hollywood spilling into the movie for better of force. Oh no. God forbid we have thoughts. Briss talking.

Briss as in the Jewish tradition of severing the young male member. Okay. Everybody seems tired and jet lagged. And in the first movie where it was all clean lines and clear motivations, Terry Benedict stole Danny

Ocean's girl, and now Danny Ocean is going to steal something from him. Ocean's 12 is kind of convoluted. It brings in a debt that they owed to Benedict. It brings in a game of wits with the Night Fox. You bring in Isabelle Lahiri. You also have Julia Roberts in there, but then there's this whole thing with Lamarck and the game and the escrow and what's happening with that. And it's just confusing.

And then at the end of the movie, you find out that essentially the last half of the film was a play, was like not real and everything that we had gotten so invested when, like, how are they going to get the coronation? and how is this going to happen, was all essentially a bait and switch to confuse Toulor. So I think that that is what you could say about this movie. I have no emotional conviction in what I just said. I don't believe it.

I think that this movie is only flawed if you have a limited appreciation for what movies can be. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you're watching this movie to design your own heist, I understand how you would want your money back at the end of it And because you need to pay for your legal fees because you're in jail because it won't work. I get that. And I guess people do watch movies different ways.

If you watch movies as, you know, wanting to be with these people, which it is, it's a hangout movie. And it's a movie and it's a Europe movie. And if you were interested in any of those things or just looking at beautiful images, it couldn't be better. If you are going to be quite literal about the mechanics of robbing fancy things, you know, tough. And, you know, even the stakes of, they're robbing a Faberget egg, like a thing that doesn't matter for a reason. Sure. The heist doesn't matter within the context of the movie. But I guess.

I think I've thought about this a lot and why I'm not harshly critical of movies like this. And I am harshly critical of movies like Inception. This is just personal preference for me. But with a movie like Inception, which I was very critical of on this show, the tone of the movie demands that you take it seriously. Absolutely. And if you don't take it seriously and you don't try to engage in the lore building and the logic of the movie, then you're not really getting what they're trying to do and what the filmmaker is trying to say in a lot of ways, which is this really grave emotional set of dramatic circumstances. This movie just does not care about that. I mean, there are some emotional and sentimental moments. Catherine Zeta Jones's reunion with Albert Finney and even just like rusty kind of reckoning with this stage of his life where Dan, Annie was reckoning with it in the previous film. So it's not that it's completely a lark, but it mostly is. And because it is, whether the heist logically works, like, I really just don't, do not care.

It's just not meaningful to me in terms of the execution of the story. It is a clever movie, which is a word that I have found often bubbles up when people don't often enjoy that. I enjoy that purposely because there's nothing I like more than like someone telling me that I'm smart. that's my greatest flaw. But not everyone responds that way, and it is a little meta, as you said, and it is a little, I guess, like, the unkind word would be self-satisfied. Naval gazing, whatever. Yeah.

And I understand that that is not a tone that everyone seeks out. I think also if you resent self-satisfied Hollywood in particular and the glamour of movie star lifestyle, part of what I think is appealing about it for the three of us is it is really just fascinating to watch movie stars engage with their own personas in real time in a constructed reality. There are other people who these are people who are critical of the Oscars who are like these self-important blowhards get on stage. And that was a critique of the movie was like, I can't believe they shot in Lake Como

like George Clooney couldn't even be bothered to like leave his summer home. Right. And Soderberg hilariously was like really annoyed because he was like, that's actually the Sconti's home. We didn't shoot in Cluny. He's home. Yeah. And he was just like,

these pricks couldn't like look that up. But I think that that was, you know, those distinctions or whatever. I want to talk a little bit about the movie stars that we've alluded to. As Sean said that this movie essentially inverts the central relationship,

I would argue, of Oceans 11, which is Rusty and Danny, making Rusty the sort of vulnerable one, the one who's going through it. And Danny, I mean, I honestly feel like Danny is hardly in this movie.

I agree. It's true. It's really noticeable. Yeah, I mean, we can get to him, but, like, to me, like, this is just, like, it's wild how funny and good Damon is in this movie. I also agree with that. But he is pretty much the second banana in the movie, and Rusty is, like, the star. Let's talk a little bit about 04 Pitt, but let's talk a little bit about this performance. What do you think of Brad Pitt in this movie?

It's pretty overwhelming. I'm sorry I'm just, you know, it's been a long season of me talking about Brad Pitt while trying to be a performance. professional respected person in the world not respected at all. I don't even know I said that I would like to be. Self-respecting? Yes, thank you. I really like the buzz cut. Yeah. I noticed last night, I think the fashion has actually like come around or I think what's funny is that in 2004 he's supposed to look completely ridiculous. The line where they're just like you dress like a jule. And you know, the leather coats, which are like definitely the thing that everyone goes to Europe and buys and then it's like, oh, I got this leather coat in like Florence or whatever, or still not

with it. Because you want to dress like Trevor Howard and the third man. Everything else you can see on the men's runways right now, which is, it's great. Shout out to Brad Pitt. This is like, this is peak charisma, Brad Pitt. He's not even really doing anything else. And I think maybe some of the negative response to the movie is that he is, it's such an internalized performance.

you know, that charisma is kind of like going inward. I mean, he's the biggest star in the world, right? Yeah. At this moment, right? Yeah. And he's, Troy, Oceans and Mr. and Mr. Smith. Yeah.

It's peak cool guy and also a little self-effacing. Yeah. With all of the hotel stuff. And I find it just immensely appealing. Damon was not going to do this movie. He wanted to back out. He was like, you know, there's conflicting reports. Some say Damon wanted his part to be bigger.

Some say he wanted his part to be smaller. But he was essentially. coming off of a born movie and was like, I'm exhausted, can maybe I skip out on this one? I'm really glad he did not. He's essential to the movie. He's the funniest part of the movie. And he's the only truly desperate character in the movie, and even though it's a life and death circumstance theoretically, because he's so insecure.

And it's such a genius trope to reverse someone who is so naturally handsome and charismatic and turn him into a lioness, you know? And Soderberg does it over and over again, you know, the informant and contagion. And he keeps using, and came behind the candelabra, he keeps using Matt Damon in this way. In this reversal of fortune way. And I think it's mostly because not only do you need a character like that to cut Danny Ocean and Rusty Ryan, but you need a character like that to cut George Clooney and Brad Pitt. Yeah. There has to be someone cutting against that.

And just the line readings are amazing. Just when he wakes him up on the flight to Europe. That's awesome. He's just, what are you doing? What are you doing? And that obviously was written as like a self-referential moment to what you were describing to the idea that he didn't want to do the movie, but he needed a more integral part in the heist, aka a more integral part of the movie. I'd really like to play a more central role this time around. Right.

I feel like I'm ready for that. And I wanted to know if I could. I was wondering if I could maybe come to the meeting and help you guys negotiate. He and Pitt have fantastic chemistry in this. They found a new level. And I really enjoy it. It's dynamite. I mean, like, the meta moments start from pretty much the second the group are back together.

And we can talk about all of them. We can get into the categories, though, I think. Sure. Okay. So let's take a quick break. We'll be back. We'll get into the categories. Today's episode of the rewatchables is brought to you by Simply Safe with Home Security.

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the best home security system. Check it out today at SimplySafe.com slash rewatchables. Get free shipping and a 60-day risk-free trial at S-I-M-P-L-I-Safe.com slash rewatchables. SimplySafe.com slash rewatchables. All right, guys, we're back. Oceans 12.

Let's do their most re-watchable scene. I think we've gone through a lot of like whatever the flawed part of this movie is, but we can save any other discussions of that for what's the worst. Most rewatchable scene, I will throw some nominees at you. The 12 reunion. Danny, it was one job that we did together,

so I don't know where this whole proprietary stance comes from. Scott Khan, really good in this movie. You told me that your wife said that he called it Ocean 11. Now, who decided that? I'm a private contract. It was a collaboration that moniker is insulting. Yeah, I mean, Danny, it was one job that we did together, so I don't know where this whole, like, proprietary stance comes from.

It seems a little possessive. One could make the argument that because it was. Also breaks a couple of times. But you can see they use takes where he like cracks up at Elia Gould and walks away. The breakdown of the Vanderwood heist and Damon being like, do we have to call him a freak? Hey! What? Do we have to use that term?

What term? Freak? I mean, the National Institute of Mental Health estimates that 5.6% of adults develop agoraphobia at some point. Whatever. I'm just saying. I mean, we... I don't think we need to be the kind of organization that labels people. I'm not an organization. What, would you call Emily Dickinson a freak? Are you hosting a telethon? We don't know about it.

It was Emily Dickinson. Yeah. And, you know, would you call Emily Dickinson a freak? I just don't think we have to be that kind of organization. Yeah. They just put like a Robert Altman scene in the middle of this movie where there's like 18 different overlapping dialogue parts and there's like, it's fun to watch it with subtitles actually because you can see. like pit mutters like don't touch my food a couple of times to people which is a great nod towards the the food thing that goes throughout these movies um the matsui meeting with robby coltrane uh just absolutely i remember also when i saw this the first time watching that and just being like

this is fucking incredible that they're just doing a five-minute scene where no one knows what each other is saying um and damon's doing the lyrics to cashmere is incredible oh let the sun beat down upon my face stars to fill my dreams I am a traveler in both time and space to be where I have been Kashmir

Is that your idea of making a contribution? We hadn't even started We didn't even got into the terms yet This close to losing that I don't even understand what happened in there What did I say? He called his niece a whore A very cheap one

What? She's seven He currently confined to bed with a wicked case No God I'm telling you that I love the banter at the waiting at the train station to leave. Just all the like, how old do you think I am? Yeah, dude, we know Rusty's not 50. I think I'm 50 years old.

Let me ask you something. How old do you think I am? 48. I think I'm 48 years old. 52. And the way that they handle that. You put a man in a handbag. Yeah.

That's right. That's right. The Amanda Dobbins Memorial pick for Vincent Cassell's introductory montage. Just film on location. Just always film on location. That's all I ask of anyone making a movie ever again, film on location. Thank you. Rusty and Danny getting drunk on red wine when Danny gets woken up at 1130 and they watch happy days in Italian.

Yeah. You know, I talked to the doctor by getting that tattoo removed. But given its location, he advised against it. That guy doing potsey is unbelievable. That guy doing potty is unbelievable. Bruce Willis in the hotel. I mean, the entire test comes to Rome scene. Yeah, tests coming to Rome.

I think that the entire Julia Roberts from the hotel to the museum, but the Faberjay theft sequence is incredible as well. But the Bruce Willis coming in breaking the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh wall of this movie. Hey, Jules, that reminds me. You know, I've been meaning to call you since the last time the girls and I were down in town. Oh, it's so good to see you. So relaxing. Sorry, I'm messed.

Anyway, Tallulah left her SpongeBob blanket in the Red Casita. Okay. So what I want to do here. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Thanks, Bruce. And just their interaction and Glenn Snackwell and everything that's going on. Bruce, Glenn Snackwell, publicity.

Everything that's going on with Damon and that. Tallulah Spongebob. And, you know, we could throw in, uh, Marcus. The Night Fox Capoeira dance and everything. I think you have to. Yeah, all that stuff kind of goes into the last sort of 25 minutes before the final, like, Lamarque and Lahiri stuff. But those are the ones that I have. Sean, you have any other ones to add?

I thought the reintroduction to the 11 at the beginning of the movie is pretty great. Yeah, Lord Benedict is coming through and catching all of them. But even before that, before we see him approaching the people, essentially Danny in the bank and opening that way and kind of creating that similar, like, Thomas Crown Affair energy at the top of the movie. And you think it's going to be one kind of movie and then it doesn't become that kind of movie. Like him deciding not to rob that bank or whatever it is that was going through his mind at the time is almost like the pivot for the movie. You know, it could have been one kind of grittier American tale. And then it becomes this much more international extravaganza.

It's also a nod to the beginning of out of sight with the bank teller. And then Rusty visiting Tover Grace. Yeah. It's also my list. It's so unbelievable. I really like Eddie Jameson's stand-up comedy in the Matador suit. What is he like when he's just like he's the modern man alienated? It's unusable.

I can probably get 20 minutes out of it. I mean, I think that there's also something about the self-aware, self-effacing little touches that come through the movie. It's a memory movie in a lot of ways and it keeps putting title cards up on the screen and saying six days ago, you know, this much money. It doesn't make any sense. Those timelines don't add up. But I do like the one in particular when. the Night Fox is explaining the story of Lamarca and the American businessman, played by Jerry Weintraub, was a producer of the movie.

And then he brings the whales in in Oceans 13. Exactly. So all of the little, like, it's much more of a flashing moments movie, also Cherry Jones. Yeah, that was the last one I was going to add. And that moment in the truck with Matt Damon. I'm really proud of you. Thanks. We both are.

You told Dad. You told Dad. I'm sorry. Great. I'm going to be dining out on this one for months. One of the funniest moments of the movie. It's fantastic. Yeah.

I love how she's just like is chewing gum when she comes into the jail cell. She's like, I want that one first. Yeah. What were some most rewatchable scenes for you, Amanda? So I have a couple runners up. The Matsui meeting is just if you had to give someone, what, four or five minutes of these movies and just be like, here is what it's about? It's a pretty good distillation. Yeah.

When I was watching last night, Clooney is amazing in that one because he just, doesn't move. He's just sitting there not saying us. It's, and it's so good that deadpan look. Yeah. And obviously, Damon with the comedic timing between the cashmere, it's really good. And then also on a similar, just a good summary of these movies, it's like the Pitt and Clooney watching Happy Days. Sure. I watched this with my husband last night. This is the only time he's ever done this. I was 10 minutes in and he walked in. He was like, oh, started over. I want to watch the whole thing with you. And he'll never watch the rewatchables with. me, which is just, this is a great rewatchable.

But we got to that scene, and he was like, this is a really beautiful movie about male intimacy, which says everything that you know, need to know about my husband. And anyway, but I thought that was true. It's a lovely little scene about friendship and hanging out. It's like a perfect thing that Rust is just like, well, that's too bad. You're awake at 1130. Like, that's like what any person would probably say. And he's like, come on.

Yeah, let's get you drunk. But it's also the inversion of that five minutes later when Rusty is bearing his soul and Clooney is just so tired. Yeah. And not paying attention to him at all the way men will often do when another man is unburdening his soul. It's really smart. But those aren't my scenes. I know. What's your scene?

My scene is the whole, the test goes to Rome. Let's talk about this. Yeah. This would be my pick, too. I wasn't in four weddings. I remember when this happened. when I saw this the first time I was kind of like someone had this idea

and this is why they made the movie they were like wouldn't it be funny if we did this and then it's like we should probably just put a movie around this it's like one of the best whiteboard throw something at the wall and see what sticks things that I've ever seen executed in any other

way if it had been handled in any other number of ways it completely undoes the entire project like not just this movie but any of the movies. And yet when you watch it, you are like, I just took six hits of nitrous. I cannot believe how elated and fun

this whole bit is. It's reminding me a little bit of what Curb Your Enthusiasm does, which obviously is a show that I'm obsessed with. And Curbier Enthusiasm frequently casts very famous people in very small roles. But it also, because it takes place in Hollywood,

casts real people as bad versions of themselves. So Ted Danson is a character on the show. as Ted Danson, but this season, Vince Vaughn is on the show as a guy named Freddie. And there is an absurdist premise to that that is really fun and feels like so uncontrollable. You know, movies are so predictable in so many ways and so standard and so designed and so they're working so hard to make audiences feel safe so they don't leave. So they don't turn it off. They don't walk out of the theater.

This is a real, like a genuine risk. Now, it's pretty daffy and screwball and in a great. spirit and it's people that the three of us love doing these things. So it's not, we would never walk out of something like this. But it would be confusing to some people and it would be too meta. And I think when Bill wanted this to be a flawed rewatchable, I think specifically the meta aspect of this story and these sequences, some people just didn't like or turned against our thought was, as Amanda was saying, self-satisfied. I personally have the exact opposite relationship. There's two reactions to this. You either watch this and you go, holy shit, this is the

most delightful thing I've ever seen, or you immediately switch your brain to the other side and say, so wait, if Tess looks just like Julia Roberts, and that's a thing, does Danny look just like George Clooney? That's exactly what I think in the Kirby Enthusiasm Universe. I'm like, is Vince Vaughn in Hollywood while Freddie is also here in the show? Someone explained to me how these, and that's where Inception comes in. Does line us look just like Matt Damon? You're on the message boards with Chris now.

Because Julia Roberts exists in this universe, and we know that Adrian Brody exists in this universe. Yep. But Matt Damon and George Clooney and Brad Pitt don't. I don't know. I'm just saying that... Guys, let's call in George Clooney. George, come on in. Probably one of my all-time favorite movie scenes.

I'm not doing anything. Please don't. Yes, you are. I'm not doing your low character. All this time, I'm like, hey... You're supposed to be the whinness of this group and not the person on the message board. You are supposed to bring positivity. and we can work this out and we don't have to train a cat in that amount of time.

I thought it was more like the Frank. You're the Glenn Snackwell. You're the Linus. Because you would say we don't need to be that type of organization. Sure. That's true. That's true. Okay.

From now on, no more flaws. Yeah. No, it's just not about this scene, which I think your point is right, is that you do have to bring a ton of extra knowledge to this scene to actually get what's going on. Or at least every joke. You know, even when Matt Damon is like at the end recounting the plot of The Sixth Sense to Bruce Wells. And he's like, I knew when he was at the restaurant. He's like, oh, you picked up on that. You know, and it's not like they say the Sixth Sense.

You just, there are so many things that you have to know. And I understand that that is off-putting to some people. And I get it. We three are obsessed with this stuff. And I am obsessed with movie stars. And I am obsessed with movies. And I, you know. You know that Julia Roberts is.

husband's real name is Danny. Yes. So that that joke lands super fucking hard when they make it. Doubly funny and doubly confusing. Yes. Just part of the bit. And using Tallulah's real name. Exactly.

His daughter's name. Marcy is actually her publicist. Yeah. Yes. And they're setting it up throughout the movie of, oh, you just can't say that, never say it, that she looks like the other person. And then they're setting up all the jokes about being in romantic comedies, which, you know, I find, like, so funny.

I, so as people who consume. all of this and are sort of like the exception nerds, but for this type of movie, I just find it, I think it is self-serving, but it also serves the audience that is me. And I loved it. The thing that makes it,

the reason that the nose plays, so to speak, in this scene is Damon and Roberts's reaction when Bruce Willis comes in. Yeah, I almost... It's fucking incredible. They're just like,

Damon, I want to like Tony Romo this with like a telestrator. Damon's face when Bruce Willis walks in, he goes like, oh! He's just like, he's like so excited to see Bruce Willis. And Julia Roberts's face is like, I love you. Bonjour. Oh, is literally, I actually think it might be some of the greatest American acting I've ever seen. Because she is a woman pretending to be Julia Roberts and Bruce Willis is greeting her as if she is, is Julie Roberts, but she is this woman who's like, holy shit, the guy from moonlighting is walking up to me.

Right. And she's just thrilled. I genuinely wondered whether they knew that it was happening until he walked on because she is so delighted and surprised. So they apparently went through like 23 different versions of how to play this. Good for that. They rewrote and rewrote and rewrote and I'm sure a lot of it's ad-libbed anyway. But it is amazing. And then credit to him, Willis is just like so good in this. He's nails. Yeah. It's amazing. It's perfect the way they he plays it. Nice to meet you, Glenn. One of my favorite little moments in this scene, which speaks to the veracity that we're talking about, about every choice that they made, is when Glenn introduces himself, and then Bruce gets flustered and he's like, you dropped Marcy?

You fired Marcy? He fired Marcy two weeks ago in town. You told me I should go with Marcy. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Tell what happened with Marcy, Glenn. There's a story? Yeah, always a story with Marcy.

Marcy, that old thing. It's a thing. It's such a surprise. You should sit down. I'm with the studio. Marcy is still very much in the picture, sir. Which is a real thing that happened. Yes.

You know, there are publicists that are working from the studio. There are personal publicists. There is a fine line. Usually when you're on a European tour for a film, you're working with the studio publicity. It's like the level of specificity in the jokes and in the delivery is so perfect. We're looking to come really strong off the baby. And they're all enjoying it.

Like, you know that these are people who have had to put up with versions of this nonsense and they're clearly having so much fun roasting everyone. I mean, when Damon's in the car and he's like, we have suffered some personnel losses due to something and just like doesn't

know what to say. And see me, he's just clearly making fun of every single person. He's supposed to be in the way. He's getting killed for his accent in the movies in the first one. Just killing Julia Robert, killing Tess, quote unquote, for her accent. She'd be like, you've got to elongate the vowels. And he's just like,

Doing the most, like, I think these cockney is actually pretty amusing, but I think some people with that actual accent. Shades of Dick Van Dyke. Yeah, right. So obviously, Julia Roberts Hotel scene gets most rewatchable scene. But the entire Julia Roberts' test experience in the movie will go most rewatchable. I will say, we talked about it a little bit on the first one, I sort of don't really get the Julia Roberts aspect of the first film.

Like, I feel like she's really underused in the movie. And maybe there's a case for that, like, just a dollop. of her goes a long way. But this movie really utilizes her mega charisma in a great way. Well, now, because she gets to be a part of the gang. She's the 12th. It's Ocean's 12. And I think, you know, I don't

want to jump ahead, but I think we will talk about Catherine Zeta Jones in this movie a lot. And I think in these movies, you only want to spend time with the crew. That's it. And so when she gets to be a part of the crew, she has more time to shine and they get to have her be the greatest movie star of all time. She's not even trying. That's where she's just watching him mix the paint at the beginning.

It's so good. It's the disdain and the frustration and it's tremendous. Too much ox blood. Yeah, it's so good. It's your paint. What's age the best? The look, sound and feel. It's actually like Sean said in the beginning,

I think it's as much a background movie as anything else. It's great to look and to listen to and just doesn't demand a lot in the brain. I just want to say also, we don't probably, we've done a bunch of pods about Steven Soderberg movies about his top five. We did a lot of since 11. Probably don't talk enough about David Holmes' contribution to the legend that is Steven Soderberg. He's done numerous films with him. And especially these movies and Haywire, they're great nods to like 70s Italian crime soundtracks and Goblin soundtracks and Morricon sans stuff.

But like he's so fucking good at making these movies cool. Like he is essential to these movies. I completely agree. I don't have anything to add. Like I don't know where they would be without. Right. And his style is flexible. Sure.

And also the found music they pull, the sort of the Italian orchestrations and some of the pop songs that they pull and some of the re-recorded pop songs. The one, the third man zither type music that they play at Isabelle's mom's funeral. Yes. When Rusty is watching her from the tree is like from some 1970s Italian crime movie. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, what a get. Other what's age the best, Lake Como and Vincent Cassel's life.

style. Just the fruit smoothie is elite shit when he comes out. He's just got like a giant platter of fresh cut fruit. Do you aspire to that? I would love to live a life where not only is fresh fruit always around. Okay. But I don't have to think about it's procurement, it's freshness or its disposal. Right. It's just there for you. I love when I see people's houses and there's just like fruit in a bowl, fruit here, fruit there. And I'm like, god damn it. You know, every time I go to the store, I'm just like, am I really going to have six apples this week or three apples? this week, like, probably not. And then when I get them, I usually throw them in the fridge.

So it's like they just kind of, like, are hidden anyway. So nobody knows about my fruit. This is an amazing emotional excursion on this podcast. I agree with you. Is that weird? No. Do you guys have anything like that where you're like, I wish I had a life. I just buy fruit.

I just do what you're describing. Yeah. And I have a fruit bowl in my home. I know. I eat a lot of fruit. Like, I know you eat an apple every day. Yeah. But no one else does.

They do now. Yeah. But like, you eat an apple in solitude. What you got to do is, In solitude? You make me sound like a sociopath. What we need to isolate here is also like we like fruit as actual sustenance and things you're eating every day and fruit as a colorful addition.

I mean, as still life. You know, it is like a, it's been in paintings for hundreds of years and now it is like a sign of, I find it very beautiful. But also aspiration that you can just have like an opulent bowl. Right. Like a beautiful like wooden bowl of like or of citrus. Yeah. Right.

Which I have often aspired to. I've even tried to grow citrus trees at my New York home in order to get to that place. But yeah, you do have to keep them in the fridge to keep them fresh if you're going to use them. This has been Spotify's newest podcast, the hottest fruit. Okay, so Lake Como, pits performance. Just pits whole, like, I'm going through a lot, you know, but like also I'm still the most charming guy in the room. Right. All of his like freeze frame facial expressions, pre-meam, but still great.

you know. The phone still, the one when he realizes the phone is stolen. Yeah. Yeah. So his line deliveries are incredible. I actually would have watched Rusty Ryan hotel owner as a movie.

Sure. Maybe we can save that for a question that comes later on the show. Damon's Thirst. Just an incredible vibe from him in this movie. Like in the first one where he's like, I'm trying to get out of the shadow of my dad kind of. Like, you're like, okay, it's fine. but, you know, this is like a great idea for the third person

is to give him like this thirst. I love the idea of him also just in this stage of his career, quickly pivoting from caving in the skulls of terrorists in Bucharest in the born supremacy and then going straight to this movie. You know, that being the jump, that's also a sign of somebody who knows what they're doing. And even if he didn't really want to do this movie in the first place. Let me see where he was in 04.

So in, here's Matt Damon's, Couple of years here. Ocean's 11, 2001. Jerry 2002. When's the Jerry rewatchables? That's, is that flood? You and I live rewatchables on a hike through the desert. Who says no. Born identity, O2. Confessions of a dangerous mind. O2. Stuck on you, O3.

Jersey Girl cameo, born supremacy. So we'd done two born movies and he came into Oceans 12. And these guys are like, you're the nerd who stands over there and talks about Emily Dickinson. Did I tell you guys that I saw Jay and Silent Bob Reboot, which features of Matt Damon performance? Does it really? Yeah.

Two very important performances in that movie, Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. We'll circle back in 20 years to that rewatchables. Okay. Or our Eskooiverse pod. That's right. Oh, boy. Generally, what's age the best is the chemistry of the ensemble. Mm-hmm. So what do you guys think is age the best?

That was the last nominee. I had just kind of this group of people being together, you look at what they've all done in the 15-year sense, and you're just like, yep, still checks out. I mean, I know they accomplished most of that with Oceans 11, but they got them all back. Yep. And then the concept of movies as an excuse for rich people to have vacations, which let's just do it.

Let's do more. That's right. Let's send more people to Europe and then film. E.g. any Adam Sandler movie set in Hawaii. Exactly. Not just Europe. That's what I say across the world. There are many beautiful places that I don't know about that I would love to.

learn about through watching a movie about movie stars on vacation there. I think I would go with the first one that you suggested, the sort of look and feel and the style of the movie, which is very different from the first. You know, the first is obviously it's a remake of a Rat Pack movie. It's a very American. It's a very casino bound. It feels like it's inside of one particular kind of world. And this movie is so different stylistically.

And setting-wise, it's much more like, you know, the Italian job and Rafifi and Babla Flambore. and all of these other movies, these Italian heist movies, but with a slightly different, very Americanized sensibility on those movies. It has the... That was a great choice. It has the, like, mild sadness of expats, of being disconnected. There's...

I'm not going to get into too much shots stuff. No, no. This is a good time to talk about shots. The shot of them coming out of the hotel in Amsterdam, walking past, like, the flower store, and onto the bridge. Right. And then they're talking about... about like 3D printing and stuff and then Clooney opens up his heart and Pitt just walks away.

But if you just, I rewatch that, I watched that, I wound that shot like three times last night. It was just like, and he's going behind the like iron. A big gear. Yeah. The wrought iron like sort of girdings of the bridge. There's like a four second period where you can't see anything. And he just pops up and there they are at sunset and Amsterdam. And they're just kind of like chatting with each other.

I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. What the hell? It's almost like a mockery of the conventions of beauty. in that kind of filmmaking, though, too. You know, like when Cherry Jones removes them from prison, and then it does a zoom, and then it does, like, eight consecutive zooms on the characters.

It's almost, it's, like, such a, like, on the nose self-referential joke. He's so fucking good. He'll just do, like, a handheld shot, and then all of a sudden have 10 people in the frame. It's just incredible. I do think that's really important. I was thinking last night as we watch it. We always talk about, like, they, quote,

like, they don't make them like this anymore movies. And usually we're talking about, like, they don't make an original adult drama, with actors or movie stars where people get to talk to each other, which this is, by the way, this is, they don't make kind of heist movies with this many movie stars on location in Europe anymore. Yeah. But it's rare that the movies they don't make anymore, like look as good as this does.

That's another thing where it's not just that it's like a genre or a type of experience of movie, but like the filmmaking is extraordinary. Yeah. I mean, Soderberg is cited Joseph Losey's Modesty Blaze, John Frankenheimer's Seconds, French New wave Italian crime films. Obviously, there's some Altman stuff going on in here. So you could pretty much just study this movie for days. Just even like the sideways shot of Tess's plane landing in Rome. It's just like, you don't have to do it like that. Exactly. There's so much that you don't have to do in this. Yeah. What is age the worst? So let us do, let us speak now of Catherine Zeta

Jones because I think that there, she is the new addition to the cast. Like Night Fox is just basically the Andy Garcia stand in. The presence of Catherine Zeta Jones also takes, I think it's the most somber part of the movie. It's like the heartbreak of Rusty leaving her. She's pursuing them. She's getting in the way of them being like great, whatever.

And then also like the kind of melancholy ending of the movie is essentially built around Isabel. And I think that your mileage may vary on this. I actually find her delightful in this movie. and find that she has way more chemistry with Brad Pitt than Julia Roberts has with George Clooney, but I could be talked out of it. I think those things are very subjective.

Amanda. Yes. Catherine. So just to speak to the chemistry point, I think that George and Julia actually have plenty of chemistry, but they're meant to be at a different point in their domestic. You know, she's mixing paints and it has too much oxplay. Sure.

Their second three-year anniversary. Yeah. And they're coming. on that. I think even in the first movie, like, they are like, to your point, like, they keep Julia in the penalty box for a lot of that movie. Yeah, well, there's some frost. Yeah. Which is just a different type of chemistry, in my opinion. No, but you and I were talking a bit about this last night. And I think I said to you, she and last night, like, I don't feel that she and Brad Pitt have that much chemistry. But I was actually wrong. And I just wanted on the record that I admitted

that I was wrong about something. It's not. Let me assure you that this is being recorded. Okay. Well, I just want everyone to know what to say. You're on the record. when you're on a podcast. Yeah, I know, but it's more like I want you two to remember it the next time that you try to tell me that I'm stubborn or something. Anyway, I was wrong about that. They do have chemistry. It's just that when you're in the Isabella-Hiri scenes, you're not in the high scene and you're not in the oceans 12. And that's just you don't want to, she's great.

And she's, you know, beautiful and they do have chemistry, but and you just don't really care. You want to be spending time with the other guys. I love the shot of Europol, the speech she's giving. I think that goes into that office. I think that trying to land the Isabel is actually Lamarck's thing

at the Lamarck's daughter at the end of the movie is a little bit of a bridge too far. I think it just is very convenient but I guess it also brings her back to Rusty. I don't know. How do you feel about

Catherine Zader Jens in this movie? I guess I'm just thinking about how I feel about her in general, which is I just don't. And that's not a criticism of her. She's just, she's not well served by the fact that she is operating against not only an iconic collection of actors and movie stars,

but a group of people that got to do this once before. And I mean, her career is just a very strange career. She's worked with Soderberg a lot. She has. I think this is her third or fourth film with him? Traffic, this side effects, and they were supposed to make a movie about Cleopatra together. Yeah, I think, you know, she hasn't made a movie in seven years.

And I think she's a person who is kind of evaporating from the popular consciousness, which is not a bad thing. I'm sure it was her decision to do so, though a lot of women as they get older in Hollywood get fewer and fewer opportunities to make movies. But at this time, she was a really, really, really, really big movie star. I mean, this is just two years after Chicago. So it's interesting to try to wedge and you needed somebody who has, like, weight,

gravitas, a kind of cleverness in her acting persona, which she does. Like, that's kind of how she became a more popular American movie star in like the Zorro movies, and she needed to. to kind of be more playful. So she fits. I'm not personally bothered by trying to stitch her to Lamarck in the movie because I think what they're ultimately what the movie is trying to say is like, we're all crooks and she needs to be a crook at the end when they're all having the party.

As an actor, I still think the best thing she's ever done is that that scene in high fidelity where she's just like so cold and in control of John Q'sack. I still like when she's driving in traffic and she's like shoot him in the head. That's kind of my ideal woman. That's on brand. Okay. So we were kind of mixed there. I found myself quite, quite into her in this movie on rewatch.

Casting what ifs, there really aren't any, obviously, because there's a very established 13 or 14 person cast in this movie, but there was a backup plan if Damon had not done the film. Yes, there was. I do not know if this was a recast or if it was going to be a different character, but Mark Walberg was lined up to replace Damon, who considered backing out of the movie. coming off of a demanding born movie shoot.

Is this a bit? Like, is this real? I don't know. This is like, like, why would this get out? These, when you read the, the promo interviews around this and you watch the videos around Oceans 12,

it's like a fucked up Preston Sturgis movie. Like, they're just doing bits the entire time. They, like, are completely just, like, doing third level inside jokes with each other and pranking. And so I don't know if Mark Wahlberg was going to be this movie? Has he ever been in a Soderberg movie?

I don't think so, though. It's interesting that he and Damon have a showdown a couple years later in The Departed. That's right. That's right. I don't think he's done the Soderberg movie. Not really his tempo. Yeah, I was going to say. As opposed to doing any more casting what ifs, since we don't really have any. Should we do the

who do you think you are in Ocean's 11 and who are you actually? Sure. Oh, God. Or Ocean's 12? Oceans 12. Right. Right. Okay. I mean, if you want to pick, Isabella, I just want that option for you. Oh, thanks. Okay. I'm Lamarck. I'm just reading the Financial Times on the south coast of Portugal.

Can you start? I really don't have a feel for this. I would like to be rusty, obviously. I'd like to eat all day long and look like that. I'd love to be that cool under pressure. I'd love to, you know, everything that Brad Pitt is, I think it's aspirational. In reality, I probably. see myself more as a Linus

but I'm probably more like Virgil or Turk You know like I think that In my daily office thing I'm probably most like Virgil Casey Affleck's Virgil Also Affleck very very funny in this I'll give you a million dollars

If you don't speak for a month You say that to me? I say things like that all the time Yeah that's the sad thing I mean I don't know who I don't even know who I want to be, I fear at times that you and I are Turk and Virgil. I have some genuine concerns that I imagine myself to be a very thoughtful and important person with pulling off big schemes. Right. But really, I'm just a couple of, couple of dopes. Amanda. I mean, there's who you want to be, which I think probably, I don't know whether you want to, I want to be a rusty or a Clooney. But I think I'm probably

the night fox in this particular situation. You think that you were the. greatest thief in the world? No, because I'm not. I'm not. Ultimately. You want to be the night fun. Yeah, I am a loner who likes to do activities that involves stretching and wants to

I mean, I do yoga, as you know, and wants to be in Europe and wants to be told that I'm great and doesn't play well with others. Okay. I mean, probably. Okay. My fears. All right. Let's go to

in which we can, who's the world's greatest podcaster? Yeah, right. And invite that person onto a boat and invite Amanda onto a boat and let them have a conversation. And if someone decides that Amanda is not the greatest podcaster in the world, will she then set out to become the greatest podcaster in the world, a la of the nightfallist. When Marin asks you, who are your guys? Who did you come up with? Let's see Dion Waders Award. I think this is pretty easy.

Nominees, I have three. Okay. Cherry Jones, Albert Finney, Bruce Willis, Bruce Willis wins. Tell me I'm wrong. Debate me, cowards. Is Andy Garcia eligible for this? Do you think that Andy Garcia should win it more than Bruce Willis, or do you just want him nominated? I just open the, broad in the pool.

Maybe we just wanted to talk about it. I like sometimes with some of these categories, for Dionne Waiters especially, I think that I like to keep it a tight field. Disagree. Okay. I think that misunderstands the whole premise of this show. Yeah. I was just going to say. Not to be the best podcaster in the world on you or anything, but maybe we should have a discussion.

Give me some other nominees. I just wanted to say, Sean pointed out earlier, that the scene where they're kind of rounding up, they're getting the game back together. And that is through Terry Benedict. And Andy Garcia is great in all of those scenes. And especially when he goes to see Virgil and Turk and gives that speech about, you know, this is about honor and responsibility. and about a very special someone and admitting to her in front of everybody that her wedding

and that very special honeymoon trip to EdCon Center will have to be postponed. I like that he's also stabbing everybody with his fucking cane. It's really, I just wanted to mention an honor that work. That scene is no key,

one of my favorites too, where Virgil goes through the entire table. Yeah, thanks. Mullethead. It's like, thanks to Jojo and all the guys who work at the shop and then like pauses on Scott Con. And everybody else.

It's also just one beautiful shot down the table. And you're seeing all of them as he's like thanking his bishop. I think we've overlooked Eddie Izard and Robbie Coltrane. Okay. Okay. They may appear in other categories, but yes. Okay. But you don't think that they're...

So I think that they may be too famous for a future category. For Joey Pants. Yeah. Okay. I mean, Eddie Isard is like an internationally acclaimed comedian. I mean, Albert Feezer. Finney is quite famous. Yes, I agree, but we're not naming him of that guy.

Right. I'm just saying he belongs in the on waiters. Gotcha. Okay. I don't think that they should win. I'm not even really going to quibble with Bruce Willis. I also agree with Bruce Willis, but, you know, there's just something about pacing here. You know, we got to read the awards out and have some discussion before you. You can host Ocean's 13.

Okay. Big barking energy for this category. No one's throwing out Gerowin crab, I see. What about Jared Harris? As Bashers engineer. Fucking amazing. Great stuff. It's just like, that's just fantastic stuff.

And I don't even know, like, that's also just Soderberg on the Jared Harris train 10 years before Chernobyl. You love to say it. 15 years before. I'm still going to give it to Bruce Wells. Apex Mountain. Here are some nominees. Oh, boy. Brad Pitt.

He is clearly pretty miserable around this time. I think his life is starting to become very scrutinized. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He's making movies like Troy, which while success. He does not seem very happy to be in. Mr. and Mrs. Smith essentially blows up his life, but he is very famous.

And if we are talking about Apex Mountain as people being on like a peak of some sort of career power trip, I think you can make the argument that Ocean's 12 is Brad Pitt's Apex Mountain. Some other nominees, Arsenal FC. I thought of this. I was wondering if you would mention this given your Liverpool fandom. I don't mind.

Okay. When you're like a big look for Arsenal. 30 points ahead of Arsenal in the Premier League table. Arsenal can get all the shoutouts. That's why you brought it up. Yes. No, but I would say that I wonder how many like Americans saw that and were like, what's Arsenal and kind of like got into Arsenal that way?

Arsenal also went to the Champions League. Everybody's going to get mad at me. I think they went the next year to the final against Barcelona, which they lost. You think Soderberg made that happen? I think he caught a wave. Just like Jared Harris. He got the wave early with Arsenal. Remember the sort of the afterglow of the Men and Blazers boom when everybody in New York City was like, what I do is wake up at 5.30 a.m. and go to a bar to watch Liverpool play Arsenal like a fucking demon? Remember that was like there were New York Times style stories about that as a lifestyle choice? Do you think it was inspired by this stuff in the movie?

It's possible. I think that this movie brought a lot of European customs to the states. That seems like a lot of credit. The movie is getting. People, their hearts weren't open to the European. he had costumes. Is this Apex Mountain for the city of Amsterdam? Um, what? I mean, just, you know. It looks great. Claim a better movie with Amsterdam in it.

Maybe it's cinematic history. Yeah, cinematic Apex Mountain. I think that obviously, I'm not a scholar on history of Amsterdam. Did incredible stuff with Dykes. Okay. And they did incredible stuff with city planning. The bicycling there is great. Obviously, at the forefront of legal marijuana.

So not the opening of the VATES. and go museum, for example. Did you just Google that? Do you just have Amsterdam facts at your fingertips? So tell me all about it. Tell me all about what's better about Amsterdam than being an ocean store. It's a historical city. Yeah.

Yeah, okay. With elegant design and a deep underbelly. And that's what's amazing about it, which is why it's a great setting for this film. But this film is a piece of Hollywood clap trap. And you're shitting on a thousand years of artistry and architectural brilliance. Let's just say, what about Lake Como in this spot? Because at least Lake Como in the American. It popularized Lake Como in a big time way.

In the American consciousness, because this is also what in the American consciousness. And Americans are idiots. I think Clooney as like magazine cover guy. It's at the same time. Is that when this was happening? Yes. He's bought the house in Lake Como. And now it's in this movie and people are confusing.

Wasn't he dating a wrestler back then? I think that was me. You make it sound like he was dating gorgeous George in the 1950s. Stacey Keebler, I believe, the young woman's name was. I think that was a bit later. Okay. I'm just saying.

I was always, I was always into that couple. I think he was dating, what was the English woman? Snow? Snowden? Wasn't there? Wasn't that his long time, Paramore before Stacy Keebler? No? I'm sure Julia.

This is really your corner. Yeah, but it's, he never really had to pay attention to that until you had to pay attention to that. I was paying attention. He was, it was. A man of impeccable taste. Right. And good for him and good for everyone who.

was involved and got to visit Lake Como, which is something I still have not been able to do. So no judgment. I just don't remember. Any other Apex Mountains before I give it to Amsterdam as a city? I mean, you're really stretching out here. Should we say, all of humankind? Is this Apex Mountain for planet Earth? I think you could make an argument that for a certain kind of silk shirt, it's Apex Mountain. Yeah, so I wanted to talk about Brad's shirts. Okay. You mentioned it earlier. His clothing and whether it's like a joke and there's the jiggle-a bit in the movie. He's wearing at one point.

a shiny, a sort of eggshell colored shirt that no living human should wear except for Brad Pitt. Yes. The kind of purple tint one? No, there's, well, maybe the shine

puts a kind of like gleam on it. Do you see Brad Pitt in movies and think, I want to do that? Like, I want to look. Dress like that guy? Not just like I want to be handsome. Like, I want to get his clothes. I want to cut my hair that way. Because on the first Ocean's 11 podcast, said, George Clooney, my hair idol, the person who went in movies, when he's like really cleaned up and looking debonair, I aspire to that.

But in this movie, Brad Pitt is doing everything I don't like. He has a shaved head. He looks so gaudy and stupid. He's eating all the time, but he looks immaculate. Yes. You don't like eating all the time? You know I don't. Yeah. Yeah, but I didn't know if maybe you were like. except not if I have my fruit bowl, which you aforementioned. Yeah, I don't think that this is like, let me just go ahead and say this for the record. You don't have to state that it's for the record. He's recording it. Do you want a stenographer to come in? I know.

What I mean by that is I want people to hear me and pay attention. If you take anything away from this podcast, take away this. Wait, Craig, delete this. Starting now, delete. Go ahead. Oceans 12 is not a how-to manual. Okay. It's don't plan your heist this way.

And frankly, unless you're Brad Pitt, don't dress like Brad Pitt in this movie. I just, it's there. He is art. And that is, fashion is art. That is existence as art. It's much like they're fruitful, okay? We're just all getting to enjoy it, much like we enjoyed the cultural history of Amsterdam and Lake Como. Anything else for Apex Mountain.

This film? Yeah, in this movie. What else is Apex Mountain? Microorganisms. Amanda, did you have any nominees? I don't think. so. This is like a takeoff time for Damon, but I don't know if, I mean, he is coming off born. I think it's

around that, but I wouldn't necessarily call this movie. I think him cutting Fomka Potent's hair in the first born movie is his Apex Man. That's true. Confused Fomka Jansen with Franca Potenta. I did. Good get though. Thank you. Hey, by the way, for Dionne Waiters, I fucked up because we didn't talk about Toe for Grace. Mm. Mm. For one scene. Girl. I love her, man. I love her, but she is driving me crazy. I can't sleep. I can't work. I quit the show. I totally phoned in that Dennis Quaid movie. That movie I did with Dennis Quaid. I phoned that in.

Okay, so Apex Mountain Brad Pitt. Let's just say that. Okay. Joey Pants, Jared Harris as Bashers Engineer. Cherry Jones is Linus's mom. Robbie Coltrane as Matsui. Are all three of those people too famous? Possibly. But in 2004, I don't think so necessarily. Well, okay. Point of order. For the record, whatever Amanda would like it to be. Does Joey Pants, do we talk about it in the moment? Or are we talking about it all time? Sean, that's a great question.

Because you're right. Cherry Jones, even, in the last 15 years, has somehow become, obviously she was a playwright and stage actor and was an accomplished person, but not in the popular consciousness as much as she is now. Had she done doubt? I don't think so. I think that is 2008. Oh. And she's in the play doubt, but not in the movie. Merrill Streep took the role, right?

Man, I don't know. That's a good question. She had. It was 2004, the play. Part of it is like... I think part of it is that you want the person you're giving Joey Pants to to always be in that Joey Pant zone. You don't want them to jump out.

So Joey Pants never really made a Chernobyl. You know what I mean? What was Robbie Coltrane's detective series on the BBC? Remember it was like on A&E? for years. I watched it all the time. It was good. I can't remember the name of that show. It's like the Frickforder murders or whatever. It's like what all those things are. Sounds right. I thought it was one guy's name. Downchester? Cracker. Cracker. Yes. You watch that? I liked Cracker. Yeah. Big angle file. Am I missing any Joey Pants is though? No, it's that thing where

every single... Joe and crab, I guess. Yeah, but every single person just becomes like tremendously famous. It's true. Or is already tremendously famous. Yeah, I can't think of anyone. I'm going to give it to Cherry Jones. I think that's fair Linda Partridge They knew overacting award Did we change the Do we change

Give this soon as It's Pacino And heat Oh Time to reach in your bag Did I have a specific line from it? Yeah it was when he's at He's sitting across the table

From that guy and he's like By the time I get to Phoenix He'll be rising He'll probably leave a note Right on the door Give me all you got Overacting award dedicated to Al Pacino's

performance in heat You did that just Remember I kind of I knew I was gonna do it And I was just kind of trying To set you guys up You know Amrini this cool

Okay motherfuckers Practice at home No I've just done two fucking 500 minute podcasts on heat I know the entire movie I'm like I'm just like Leonora decaprio

floating around the pool being like, you know, bring me some some wavos. But there's just no opportunities beyond these podcasts where you get to do this. I do it all the time. To whom? That's what I want to know.

Let me tell you something. You haven't aged a day. You are a master. Don't ever change. I don't really find anybody to be overdoing it in this movie. The point of this movie is that everyone is underdoing it. So I don't really know what to say.

I guess like, is Albert Finney overdoing it with those red pants? Is he overacting? I don't know. It looks great. On the boat? No, and he's like waiting for her, and she's wearing the red dress, and he's wearing the red pants. We don't hear Wynetrabs speak, but I can see that he's overdoing. Sure.

Okay, Jerry Wynetrobb. Okay. Half-ass internet research. The Ocean's 12 story was taken from George Nolfe's honor among thieves, a spec script that at one time was going to be made by John Wu. Nolfi rewrote the movie to fit the ocean's characters. This is not uncommon. The second best diehard movie was the same thing. It was Simon Says, and it was just about.

some other shit happening and they're like, let's make this a diehard movie. We read it. Peter Fonda filmed a scene as Linus's dad, but it was cut from the movie and he was replaced in the role by Bob Einstein, aka Super Dave Osborne, aka Marty Funkhouser, in Oceans 13. Speaking of curb.

Soberg, I bet, is a curb guy. No doubt. Well, I guess we never would know. We've never seen it on the diaries. I mean, but I guess Too much below deck. That is true. He didn't watch the

most recent season recently, I think, because I don't think it was on the culture diary. Shame on everyone who doesn't watch Curb. Movies referenced in Oceans 12, an incomplete list. Sixth Sense. In Good Company, the Dennis Quaid movie, Taufer Grace is referring to, Miller's Crossing. Explicitly referenced. Obviously, cinematically, any films are referenced. It breaks my heart every time. That's exactly what I feel when I watch that scene. Johnson Turo begging for his life. Recasting Couch, is there anybody that you would slot in as Isabel Lahiri, Amanda?

No, because I think the, and I don't want to say the problem, because I really enjoy it. But the issue is not Catherine Zeta Jones, but the fact that this character is having to do a lot of work that doesn't relate to the Ocean's 12th. That's my stance. Angelina Jolias isabella Heary, better or worse movie. Noisier, certainly. I'm not sure if it's a better movie. My suggestion was going to be Rachel Weiss. Little Young in 04?

How old is she in 0. She wins an Oscar a few years later, right? For Constant Gardner, so. Yeah, the Constant Gardner. Great movie. Great movie. I mean, I like the Julie of it all just from, it's early for the meta text of that. But, you know, kick it off a bit.

Okay. And they do have chemistry, so. Picking Nits. I already said mine, which is explained to me if Julia, if Tesla looks like Julia Roberts, are the other guys doppelgangers for their Hollywood lookalikes. I mean, we need to get Soderberg in here to explain, and George Nolfi to explain himself. You guys seen George Nolfe is the Adjustment Bureau? Yeah, the hats.

Yeah. Yeah. You remember that? Do you have any picking nits? Yeah, I have a couple. Oh. Well, here's just one thing I don't understand and maybe you can explain it to me, or maybe someone who understands technology.

I just, how do you identify someone from a random bootprint that you're just finding on the street? that's, I don't believe that's what happened. Well, she identifies the boot print and then she's like, and then we got the credit card and then we were like, it's nails on. But how are you linking the boot print to the Nelsso lot? It is also in the intro scene, which is great, which is the flashback and Brad Pitt comes in. And Catherine Zeta-Jones says that she's about, she has a break on the Bulgari case and they found a really good left boot print. And they cut to Brad Pitt's boot, which is like. worn down in the exact way she's describing and they put in the he's just like,

whoops and slides it under the chair. I just don't really understand. I don't understand that technology. Yeah. I thought the implication was that they got Frank and Frank dined on them somehow. Oh. Like wasn't it that they got Frank because Frank was going to the nail salon and he used the credit card on them?

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe she just knows his shoe size. Is the implication here that Brad Pitt was a size 14? No, I think it's just that she's like, she's, she mentions that the bootprint was found at the Bulgari job or whatever it was. And then I think there's, and the implication is like, she finds this size 14 magnum boot and then runs a check on all magnum boots bought in Amsterdam

in the last week and links it back to a stolen credit card that had been used at a nail salon, which had to have been frank. But she also knew that Rusty was there watching her. So, like, that's probably... And this is a larger nitpick, which is just her knowledge base in general. She knows both everything at nothing at all times. She's just like, the night fox was here, but also I don't know the night fox.

his name or what he looks like. I'm just like, ma'am, it's 2004 and you work at Europol. Like, I think you have some scans of some, you can track a boot print. You can probably find him. It's a good point. And Danny Ocean finds out who the night fox is in like four hours. Right. And she knows that they raise the roof because she's the daughter of a master's thief, whatever. She can tell that the Americans were here. She clearly understands a lot about thieves, but also nothing about thieves. Well, that's because her heart's in it, you know. Yeah. Her heart's in the way. That's true. Do you think we should delete this pod because of that No, and I just, I have one more thing in the famous, like, the Capoeira scene, which I think is like a visually very memorable piece of this movie, but he just like gets hit by like 45 lasers.

He gets hit by so many lasers. He does. I think that he looks very graceful and it's very impressive. And this is probably where I learned about Capoeira's, but. Did Vincent Cassell do any of that work? I did not see that in my research. He does it at the very end. I think he looks nice.

I think he's definitely training when they show him doing like, the close-ups of him doing that. I don't know. I don't think he did the entire. Where do you guys stand on Vincent Cassell? Open? I'm sorry to that, man. No, I don't know. No, I like him. You got no take of Vincent Casal. I feel like I get 60% of him in English-language movies. I don't feel like he's as a motive as he could be, as he is in his native tongue. I see. Kind of like reading things in translation sometimes.

You're like, what am I missing here in crime and punishment? When do you think we'll do the irreversible rewatchables? Best quote. This is probably the category I'm most looking forward to. Are you hosting a telethon we don't know about? This is made my favorite line of the movie. Look. Look. It's not my nature to be mysterious. But I can't talk about it and I can't talk about why. Rusty?

That precede. That follows my favorite part when he says, if you're going to ask me a question, give me time to respond. unless you're asking rhetorically, in which case the answer is obvious. Yes. Hey, can I ask you something? You ever notice the task? If you're going to ask me a question, give me time to respond. Unless you're asking rhetorically, in which case the answer is obvious, yes.

Okay, can I ask you? Yes. Thanks. You ever notice the test looks at the same thing like that. Ever. Seriously. Not to anyone, especially not to her. Wait, why not?

Turk. Come on. He's one guy and he's French. Linus. train a cat that quickly. It's an all-time one. Linus, Bruce, Glenn Snackwell for publicity. In Rome.

Bruce, Glenn Snackwell. Publicity. Hey, I'm a big fan. Thanks. Very huge. Great. You fired Mars. My favorite.

My absolute favorite moment in the movie. Linus, we're looking to come off this baby thing strong. We're looking to come off this baby thing strong. You know, that little statue on the mantel starts smirking at you after a while. You know what I'm saying? Not really, Glenn. No. Sorry.

And Bruce Willis, doctor, you might want to call the rice patty now. Any others? I mean, I wasn't in four weddings. I think four weddings in a funeral. She wasn't in four weddings and a funeral. I, I wasn't in four weddings and a funeral. Just protect your fake baby. And then the follow-up to that, which is just protect your fake baby.

Yes. It's a very special moment. Yeah, I think, I mean, the thing is, is an interplay movie. And it's obviously hilariously constructed, but it does feel like you were saying during the Julia Roberts scene. It feels like they're kind of riffing in real time. So some of the lines are memorable, but it's just an energy. You want to be inside of sequences, not single sentences. What is Casey Affleck?

It just hurts, you know, because I thought we had all agreed to call it the Bellagio job. It just hurts, you know, because it seemed like we all agreed to call it the Benedict job. I mean, that's what we called it when we were doing it. If you wanted to call it something else all along, then... There's also a good line when Scott Con in that scene is like, he doesn't have any money, and he's like, well, you've obviously never tried to create something from Scott. Could this be remade?

What's the best quote? You guys got one? Mine's the four weddings in for a row. Okay. I think Glenn Snackwell is pretty up there. Okay. Definitely my favorite. Bruce, Brent, Snackwell.

Bruce, Glenn Snackwell, publicity. Could this be remade as a 10-0? episode Netflix show, get the fuck out of here. Probably unanswerable questions. Wait, wait. Would you watch the ten heists of the Night Fox as a Netflix series? No, I mean, sure, but like, I'll watch anything. But like, I think, yeah, I mean, like, I guess so.

Is Stephen Soderberg directing it? Is this like his bounty law where he's, like, doing this? Where are the? I would just, I would much rather watch a 10 episode. Different European city every episode. Yeah. Rusty running the standard is what I want to watch. That's really, separates you and I?

Probably unanswerable questions. This has kind of come up otherwise, but how did Danny get all the biographical details about the most mythical reclusive thief in the world, the night flux, when he was just like, his name is Toulor, he's done all these jobs, here's where he lives. You think he just had a Wikipedia page?

I guess it's like an underworld connect or whatever. Yeah, that's what it seems like, because they keep talking about how you broke rule number one, which is you don't get out the thief. So maybe the underworld helped him out. Yeah. Who won the movie? Hmm.

I think you can make the case for Pitt. I think you can make the case for Damon. And I definitely think you can make the case for Soderberg. I think for me it's either Damon or Soderberg. Because those are both in the moment when you're watching it, the Damon stuff just jumps off the screen. And he almost wasn't going to do it. So in that sense, like the risk paid off.

Given the way that you suggested some of the Apex Mountain winners, I think perhaps the long-term health of our global population could have won the movie because of this film's existence. That's right. That's right. Our democratic process here in the United States of America. Is this movie responsible for Obama winning in 08? I mean, Europe is definitely a contender for winning this movie.

Yeah. I like that. I like that. I like that. I like that. Should we go Europe? Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, right before the fall, too. You know, just this thing started to come apart.

I want to say Soderberg because I feel like the first. First movie is a movie star movie and this is a director movie. I think that it's really snazzy. I think it's just like there's no wasted shots. It's gorgeous to look at. There's so many inventable things going on. He does so much stuff that's just like always in service of the story, but really, really fun to watch. And the reason I rewatch Oceans 12 is stuff like that.

So I'm going to go Soderberg, but I respectfully allow you guys to disagree. You allow us to disagree? As host. Oh, as host, so you've been judging and correcting. our opinions this whole time. That's how this works. Look, I'm going to go with Craig and we're going to record a full pot about the history of Amsterdam

and why Oceans 12. Have you been to Amsterdam? No. Have you been to the Rikes Museum? Oh, boy. You started this, by the way. Have you seen the Night Watch? Chris Ryan started this. The Night Watch? Extraordinary painting at the Rikes Museum. I haven't been to Amsterdam. I'll get your shit together next time you make a podcast

on Amsterdam. Okay. Am I right? I guess so. Who won the movie? For real. Jesus. I think the emotional sanctity of humanity emerges at the end of this film. I wouldn't do this to you. If you were hosting. That's not true.

You definitely have. I thought Amanda's Europe idea was very good. I feel like we kind of had, did we give Italy in the movie? We also said Italy let one talented Mr. Ripley. It's a theme among the movies that I love on this podcast. Did you film outside in Europe? Ding, ding, ding. All right.

So, Soderberg, Europe. Co-winners. Sorry, Brad Pitt. Sorry, Matt Damon. You know, Brad got his All these guys have Oscars, too. We did not talk about Clooney almost at all in this podcast. He's hardly in the movie.

And it's okay. That's okay, right? I think we talk about George Clooney a lot on the Rangor Podcast Network. I'm a big fan of George Clooney. George, weirdly entering a similar space as Catherine Zeta Jones. It's been a long time since he made a movie. He's got a movie coming out on Netflix this year.

I think it's called The Night Sky. You think it'll ever be a rewatchable? If I had to guess? Yeah. No. But I still love them. Okay. Cool.

For Sean, for Amanda, I'm Chris Ryan. This has been the rewatchables, Oceans 12. Thanks so much for listening.