The Rewatchables - ‘Philadelphia’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan are joined by The New York Times’ Wesley Morris as they look to be a part of justice and discuss what that case is really all about by rewatching Jonathan Demme's 1993 drama, ‘Philadelphia,’ starring Denzel Washington and Tom Hanks. Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by a. Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation.

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We record them with cameras and everything. It is at YouTube.com slash Bill Simmons. Usually we put up the new episodes as long as we record them like this one that we're doing right now. Also, we have like six years of episodes all on there.

So you just have to search for the rewatchables playlist and you can find Godfather, Godfather 2, heat, all kinds of ones are in the background there. So go check that out. And you can check us out a week from now.

We're doing the rewatchables cold weather tour Monday in Chicago, Tuesday in Washington, Thursday in Philadelphia, and Friday in New York City. There might even be special posters. The fugitive is coming live in Chicago on Monday night. Can't wait to see all of you there. Coming up on this podcast, Chris Ryan, Wesley Morris, two people that grew up in Philadelphia. So naturally we're doing a movie called Philadelphia. Philadelphia, that is next.

Would you accept a client? I have AIDS. If you were thinking, I don't want this person to even breathe on me. It wasn't a case he wanted. Wouldn't you be more comfortable in a research room? But it was one he couldn't walk away from. Did you find a lawyer? It wasn't just the fight of his life.

When they fired Andrew Beckett. I'm an excellent lawyer. It was everything he believed in. They broke the law. Tom Hanks, Denzel Washington, Philadelphia, rated PG-13. All right, so the movie Philadelphia came out. 1993 was really released January 1994. I am here with two Philadelphiaans.

Chris Ryan. Wesley Morris, first appearance on the rewatchable since courtroom month, the controversial courtroom month. And here we are. And we're back. I'm going to start here. Premier Magazine, which I have the issue with Denzel and Hanks on the cover. And boy, what an issue. They write at one point, the long, unrealized hopes of the AIDS community, therefore, sit quite unfairly on Jonathan Demi's shoulders. If Philadelphia flops, the gates will slam shut.

And Chris sent us a piece that Larry Kramer wrote, too, about how basically Hollywood had ignored the gay community in any sort of big budget way here. And for whatever reason, it was like, all right, fine, here you go. But if this doesn't work, we're not going to do any more of these. Wesley, did you feel that at the time? and do you feel that now? Well, it's interesting. This is an interesting year

to ask this question, but basically, you know, how many movies starring two major stars do we get in a year where the subject

isn't necessarily homosexuality, although that is like one of the subjects of Philadelphia, where people don't get to pat themselves on the back

for having made it the way this movie got made. I think, I mean, yes and no. I think we are, this movie is 31 years old, you know, 30 years old since I guess America really got to see it. Yeah. Or, you know, almost 30 years old.

We got a whole year to go before it's actually reached its 30-year release date. But our anniversary. I don't know. I'm thinking, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the reception, the sort of, the idea that a movie like Maestro, for instance, can be received as a movie that is about Leonard Bernstein and it can be discussed on the terms at which it was made and nobody, none of the salutations for Bradley Cooper involve

how daring and brave it is for an actor to be playing a gay person. I mean, in this case, the gay person also is Leonard Bernstein, and one of the great Americans of the 20th century. Yeah, but so with this movie, I mean, at the time, it was considered kind of courageous to make a movie like this, which is what's so interesting

when you read this stuff now. The thing that surprised me over the past 30 years, Chris, is this became a really rewatchable movie, and I would not have expected that in the theater. Like, there's certain movies you see in the theater. You see like a million-dollar baby, and you're like, I'd never want to see this again. You see this movie.

Never again. Never again. This movie... I can watch a million-dollar baby every day. No, no way. This movie, first of all, seeing Hanks and Denzel at this point in their careers, seeing how it captures a specific moment in America in 1992 and 1993, which whether you like it, whether you agree with some of the stuff in this movie,

it does really capture a certain sentiment and feel. And then there's just some really good scenes. It's really well directed. The performances are good. What else do you like about this movie, Chris? Well, so as far as like when it was coming out, I remember actually when it was made because this was a huge deal in Philadelphia. I know this is now back-to-back Philadelphia movies after Silver Linings Playbooks. So I appreciate you giving us our space bill. but I'm trying. Wesley, like, do you remember there were like daily updates about they're going to be shooting on Chesnut Street?

Denzel Washington is going to be on Broad Street. Like, there was like a real like circus around this because these things didn't happen in Philly very much. And I think we kind of knew a little bit about what the movie was going to be about, maybe not explicitly that it was going to be a courtroom drama. And then, Bill, you're right. Like, it's, it's such a strange film to feel so, it's so attractive to go back to this movie. I think a lot of it comes down to the way it was made by Demi, you know, for me at least. Like, I think this is one of those examples where when you want to, like,

if you were trying to teach directing to someone and be like, what does a director do? I would basically be like, if you watch Philadelphia and imagine it directed by literally any other person, it would be a completely different experience. I mean, Wesley, don't you think that's kind of true? Yeah, I actually was thinking of who else I'd like to see do this movie. And what would be different?

about it based on that person's approach. I mean, there's a whole class of directors I would love to see do this movie who would never do it, right? Like, what would John Waters Philadelphia look like? How about Clint Eastwood's Philadelphia? 88 minutes. Just cruising through.

I think that, you know, I think there's some very, I think the, the deminess of it, there's two obvious aspects, right? There's a general warmth and generosity. that's at work here and the idea

that the villains have to basically be as horrible as Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs, right? Yeah, who would you go? Robards or Buffalo Bill? Who's worse? Well, I mean,

God, that's a tough one. It's really a close call. Charles Wheeler. Get this guy and doctor. Get him out of here. Read your Old Testament. Yeah, I mean, He brought AIDS into our courtroom.

He's just the all-time worst villain. Of course, Dr. Jay loves him. We'll get to that later. Anyway, go ahead, Wesley. But I don't know. Does he love him when... Well, we'll get to them. I just...

I think that one is that that sort of party atmosphere, like they're at least... I mean, the Halloween party that Tom Hanks and Antonio Banderas throw in their loft. By the way, Chris, are those lofts down on

spruce? Are they spruce their like walnut? Like, right? And that Fittler Square. area, but just... I thought that was like what became Avenue of the Arts, but we don't have to get too deep into Philly. I don't know. I like this.

You said there was one thing about Demi was the generosity and all that stuff. But then the other thing is the staring into the camera, dialogue that he did. I feel like he's the best at that. And it's, it really is a pleasure. I mean, I hate to sort of like

express this bias this particular way. But that effect, I mean, it really only works with movie stars. Like that it, you really have to know how to be your character with that

camera operation in your face like that. And the opening shot, I forgot about this, watching this again. I forgot that they're like Dendellan they go one on one. Or opposing counsel in

the beginning of the movie. And I'm like, wait, is this a flashback? What? Flash forward? I don't know. But no, they're opposing counsel. And just the two of them sitting there facing the camera like that, these two very great movie stars in their prime, just side by side, you know, kind of sparring with each other a little bit. It's just, it's just exciting. That scene could have gone on another five minutes and I would have not mine. you know bill one of the things i wanted to talk about in the opening part of the pod is like how i mean we're all kind of around the same age-ish uh and we all had like you know the east coast upbringings or whatever but like i'd be very curious to see what younger people think about this movie because i think that there are elements of it when you're watching it especially the the joe Miller character, the Denzel character, where you're like, you know, this guy goes through

this kind of transformation throughout the film, you know what I mean? Like he's, he's, he is, he is put through like, kind of like this arc. And I wonder whether or not people will watch this today and, and see that for, for what it is or whether they would be like, this guy is actually a bigot. And, uh, I'm curious about, like, how much us being kind of children of the 80s and 90s, like impacts the way we watch this movie. Yeah. Hank said, in that premiere magazine, Hank said this quote that I thought was great.

And I thought I was really astute because he's given this on the set. So they're filming this movie in 93. So this is what he said. This is why he said he did the movie. I read it and saw an opportunity to accurately capture, if we do everything right, what it's like to be alive in America in 1993. You can go back through history and find movies that do that.

Sometimes there are romantic comedies, sometimes they're gritty war epics, sometimes they're sociological treatises. But they hold up forever because they're not just dealing with the cars we drove, but the mental process that everybody uses to survive day in and day out. And that's my hope for Philadelphia that it will last because it tells the truth for its time. And I think that's fair. There's a lot of stuff you can disagree within this movie and you could watch this movie from a 2024 prism and be like, whoa, Denzel, why'd they do that in that scene? holy shit, I hate this guy. But, you know, people were pretty homophobic in the early 90s. They just were.

And I actually laid out, Wesley, I did some work on this pod. I laid out the arc of... You always do the work, Bill. Well, I laid out the arc of... Of how the gay community was treated pop culture-wise from 90 to 97, right? So, longtime companion comes out in 1990. That's a TV movie. And then for some reason, they decide,

this can't even go on TV and it gets released as a movie. And it became a pretty influential indie movie during that, like Sex Lives and Videotape Era. 1999 Magic gets HIV, which is the single most important of the whole AIDS thing because that's like, oh my God, wait, magic. And then it just went to a whole other level. The crying game comes out in 92.

Everyone kept the secret. Philadelphia comes out in 93. And the band plays on as HBO 93. But then right around here is stuff, stuff starts happening. We have the Vanity Fair cover, with Cindy Crawford shaving Katie Lang's face. We have six degrees of separation with Will Smith.

We have Pedro on the real world San Francisco, which was a really, really important character. This is this huge reality show, and there's somebody dying from H.S.B. on it. The Melrose Place Kiss, where Billy, his college roommate comes in and ends up kissing the gay guy in Melrose Place, and they end up editing the kiss

and we don't see it. That's the same year we got the Rosie in Don't ask, don't tell kiss where that was a whole episode where she kissed Merrill Hemingway. Also, don't ask, don't tell itself. Right, so they're making, yeah.

And then we had Ross's lesbian ex-wife on friends where his ex-wife leaves him for another woman and they're having a baby and we're dealing with that. Priscilla Queen of the Desert comes out. So things start shifting and it leads Wesley to Ellen coming out in 97.

So I think from 90 to 97, that's, I think, the arc. What else would you add? I mean, there's all the, like, obviously gay stuff, right? That you, a lot of which you mentioned, I'd add to that Madonna's Truth or Dare. Hmm. I would add the sort of underground American independent cinema of the, like, the early 90s. Gregoraki.

Gregoraki, yeah. And Tom Kalin and Todd Haynes. What about Angels in America? Angels in America comes out I think is 93 Yep, as a play first Rent is from that From that period

I think You know This was a period in which You know I mean Angels in America Being the single Greatest

Work of Performance Art about AIDS I would say I mean it works As literature It works as theater It works as politics And you know

The other I would say I'm put alongside that you know, the work of Marlon Riggs, which also was being made during this time, and Isaac Julian, experimental, black, gay male filmmakers. This period

that Philadelphia comes out in, this is, the ground is fertile. There are lots of, you could not help but be aware. House music, by the way, is as close to mainstream as you could possibly get.

Rupal's supermodel happens during this period. Wright said, Fred's, I'm too sexy. I mean, there is even Millie Vanilli is during this period, right? We had a Maple Thorpe Renaissance in the early 90s? This was the height of the culture wars, right? Yes, like late 80s, early 90s, these fights over sexuality, the representation of sex, the sex that people were or were not having. Madonna's sex book is during this period.

her erotica album. There's just a lot of things happening. Well, and then coming out of the 80s with Reagan and Bush basically refusing to acknowledge AIDS at all. And then like, we did Beverly Hills Cop where we thought, our consensus was Axel Foley was probably

gay in the movie, but everything was wink, wink. Right, right. But that's where we're coming out of into the 90s. So the idea that Hollywood, after what, 12 years of AIDS being a national crisis, especially among

18 people. Yeah. You know, from I guess Rock Hudson making it, you know, being or finding out the Rock Hudson had AIDS to Mazik Johnson holding a press conference to thinking he had HIV. Yeah. The idea that this movie would come out in 1993, the first full year of the Clinton administration, made by Jonathan Demi, the guy whose previous movie was the best picture winner in a major kit in 1991 and 92.

Well, but it was also super controversial with the gay community. Yeah. Right. But this is an apology for that in some ways. Yeah. He basically says that in the research. Oh, good. Okay.

At least he notes. He says it without saying it, but he's like, yeah, that's definitely a reason I did this movie. This movie, to me, is the vogue of AIDS movies, right? everybody in the arts community was dealing with this at a less commercial level, right? Everybody whose lives of being affected by this disease and the crisis around it and the culture that comes out of it,

it's in the work, right? There are two major works of the American stage that feature AIDS as a plot point, right? That feature the crisis as a cultural, political, philosophical consideration. And so here comes, you know, this movie with these two movie stars about this one guy who's nothing like, by the way, any of the people, these guys are not a radical. This guy is not an activist. He is not ostensibly, you know, he's not queer when queer met, queer meant in like the 30s. Now, now queer is like synonymous with gay. I mean, queer in the 90s was a radical reclamation. Yeah. Of a political circumstance, right? you were queer against the norm, the mainstream. And so here comes this mainstream movie about a corporate lawyer. A guy from Lower Merion who went to Penn.

Yeah, right. Importantly, not in the closet, right? Just not out at work. And you have these two stars. And he's in a relationship with somebody. And he's in a relationship with Antonio Bandaris, who at that point was one of the, one of the hottest younger actors in the country.

Like to me, like, one of the things that was really important for me when I saw this movie in 1993, 94, whatever, was like, I just hadn't seen a lot of gay relationships represented like that in a movie, right? They're not like, hey, these two are gay. And it was just they were in a relationship. And even seeing something like that, like for people like me and Chris in 1993, like,

where was I seen that? I was living the East Coast. The only gay person I knew is Michael Don. you know, and it wasn't like I had a lot of insight into this whole world and, you know,

I went to this movie thinking, all right, Tom Hanks, Denzel and Tom Hanks is going to die in the end. But I got a lot more out of it just because I was really interested in the world we entered.

Do you remember seeing it the first time, Chris? I don't really remember seeing it the first time. I know I saw it in the theater. It was like, it was such a huge sensation at my,

I remember my dad was like covering it a lot at the time. It was like this and 12 monkeys like with some sort of like, Philadelphia of film Renaissance. I remember it being kind of part and parcel

with some of the very like mainstream popular culture acts of reckoning slash you know. Curiosity. Curiosity. I mean like I'm even thinking about like

I think I've talked about this before but I remember like when like Pearl Jam did unplugged and Eddie Vedder wrote pro choice on his arm like during the last song and it was like that seems quaint now maybe or like that idea of being like making publicly confrontational art and it's still like acceptable

I mean like it's telling like they're doing it during their acoustic performance like it was unplugged it was a really like you could process that but that's like almost like what Philadelphia was too where you're like oh I'm seeing this thing that I've never seen before but I'm also getting it in a package that's very digestible

do you know what I mean? And I think that that is the line that this movie kind of walks is like and you can kind of see some of the stuff that got cut out. There's the bones of things that aren't in the movie. But this movie is essentially

like, we're going to give you this pretty important story, but we're going to package it inside of a courtroom drama because everybody loves courtroom dramas, right? Everybody loves Tom Hanks. And we can put the problem itself on trial,

which I think is allegorically important. What do you think, I mean, we could do this for the, this could have been in what stage the worst, this could have been in the weak link of the movie. Denzel's tactic of, asking different people who are on the stand, are they gay?

And some of the stuff that he says and does in some of those scenes is probably the craziest part of this movie. At the same time in 93, it kind of made sense. In 2024, I'm like, man, that was an interesting choice. I'm not sure they would run that back. But what did you think of that, Wesley?

I mean, I understand as a legal, it's, you know, all of the, you know, the great courtroom dramas always have like a rogue lawyering moment. A guy zagging. Yeah. Right. Like, I'm going to do this unorthodox move and you'll just have to go with me as I step out onto this, on this, on this, you know, walk the plank, basically. But I'm going to jump and I can swim. It's going to be fine. The sharks won't get me because I'm a good lawyer. And I think that move essentially is ironic to me because as refreshing as it is in the moment, in the context of the movie, the movie, the movie, really doesn't want to talk about

what the movie's actually about, right? The movie doesn't want to, it's two big settings are the courtroom and the law firm. Yeah. And I just feel like you never get a sense of what this guy's, like,

non-work life is like. You never have a sense. I mean, the only thing we know about their relationship is that Antonio Banderas is there for him in his, in his darkest, lowest, moment unconditionally. And the Tom Hanks

fucked some dude in a movie in a porn movie theater that they made up, by the way. The Stalian Showcase. Chesnet Street is not where they I had a lot of questions for the Stalian Showcase later. They have two theaters,

three, what was going on? I mean, I know Jason Robarts isn't he actually isn't in the closet because he's like all this the crazy stuff happening on Chestnut Street. I'm like, sir, you're a block away. Yeah, one street over. just do it again, try it again.

I just don't know. I feel like there's a lot that this movie doesn't want to deal with because it thinks that taking the moral high ground is satisfying enough. And, you know, in a lot of sense as it is, but it also feels like it too is afraid to be the thing that Denzel in that courtroom, in that moment where he kind of flips the script on Bradley Whitford,

first is trying to do. Yeah, because he makes it about two things. He makes it, instead of being a solely a case about whether or not this is an AIDS discrimination case, this is a case about whether or not this is homophobia that's on trial and that these guys resented Andy for not being forthcoming, even though Andy's just like, I never lied, you know, like, it's just that this is who I am, but I never went out of my way to obscure it. Well, the same premiere magazine that has the big feature of this,

there's also a shorter piece about Will Smith because Six Degrees of Separation is coming out. We got to get into it. Let's do it. So the first paragraph of it is talking about how he wanted to do that character. If you haven't seen Six Degrees of Separation, which I think is a great movie. He plays this hustler.

He hustles this family into thinking he's Sidney Pottier's son. And turns out he's just a street hustler and the character's gay. So he said he wanted to play that character, and then he said, my first impression was going to be the most difficult thing I ever had to do in entertainment. And then it says his second reaction was more to the point,

oh shit, he's homosexual. So then it says, he called Denzel to get his opinion. Terrible famous story. Danzell said, white people generally look at a movie as acting, they accept the actors for who they are and the role is separate. But black people, because they have so few heroes in films,

tend to hold the artist personally responsible for the roles they chose. Washington told Smith that while I thought Paul was a good part for him, he also had some words of caution. You can act all you want, but don't do any real physical scenes. In other words, Smith says Washington told him, don't be kissing no man. So this is coming at the same time as Philadelphia, and Denzel is in the movie that's supposed to be,

look, this is 30 years ago. I don't mean to throw Denzel under the bus, but that was the way people thought in 93. Yeah. Also, I read that piece. piece, right? Like, that piece made an impression

on me. I was, what, 17 when that movie came out? I mean, and I, 17 when I read it, I was probably 18 when the movie came out.

But, like, I remember reading that thinking, oh, yeah, this is, this is not good. I mean, yeah,

what if Will Smith was making out with Anthony, Michael Hall, or whoever in six separation? Probably, probably not good for screw.

But on the other hand, why would, I mean, I remember thinking this as a teenager. Like playing it out of your head. Why would Denzel be telling Will Smith not to be seen make it out with a man? Like, what's the rationale behind this? Like, you couldn't handle it, but also it's in the, like, the movie kind of, if you see six degrees of separation, you know, the movie kind of wants that connection to happen. Well, they edit it so that for people that don't know, he goes to kiss the guy. and they do this crazy edit

and you don't see it because he clearly just didn't want to do it. But that was, the reason we're bringing all this stuff up is that was the climate that this movie came out. Hank said last year, or in 2022, he said the film would not get made nowadays with a straight actor in a gay role saying audiences wouldn't accept the inauthenticity

of a straight guy playing a gay guy. And then he said, he said rightly so for that. But then he said one of the reasons people weren't afraid of that movie is that I was playing a gay man. So with that said, there was, this movie did have some backlash, Chris Ryan. You sent us the Larry Kramer piece, which was one of the great old school scathing essays about it. From the Los Angeles Times and he was just like, fuck this movie. Out Magazine called it Maddenling closeted and went after it.

And in general, I don't think it hit with the gay community in the way maybe Demi thought. The Larry Kramer piece was you can go find it online. really an old school hatchet job, which I kind of like nobody writes those anymore. So he really was like so bad. He also gets like a couple of things wrong about the movie. Oh, yeah. Just like I'm like, oh man, Larry had a no fact check clause.

Right. I think you saw it once scribbled some things down and just banged it out. But yeah, the point of all this is it was such a fascinating time in America for this movie to come out. And the movie, not to go ahead, but the movie made like over. $206.7 million. Larry Kramer said this movie wasn't going to make money. He had a $26 million budget

and made $206.7 million. It was the ninth biggest movie of 1993, Wesley. I just want to stay with the Larry Kramer piece for a second and just talk about Larry Kramer, right? Larry Kramer being the apotheosis of AIDS activism

in the 80s and 90s, you know, a major part of Actup whose logo does appear in a protest outside Philadelphia City Hall, where the trial is taking place, wrote, you know, one of the seminal texts about the gay experience, the novel faggots, wrote the normal heart, the play, and was really desperate to get our presidents, our governmental agencies to acknowledge the depth and profundity and, you know, like cultural

desecration of this crisis, right? Like, I mean, a lot of great work came out of it, but I mean, a lot of people who made great work died. And what Kramer really, really wanted was for the government to work harder to find a cure, to get treatment to these people

sooner than it was getting the treatment done. David France made, you know, I think the definitive movie about this era called How to Survive, of a plague. And it's a documentary who's not many

for an Oscar a few years ago and it's just a masterpiece of archival assemblage, basically. And Larry Kramer is a significant part of that film. But this editorial or film comment

as Los Angeles. As the Los Angeles Times puts it, is, I mean, he is right, like, this is functional film

criticism, right? Like, the screenwriter may have met Robard, Steenbergen, and Washington all to be scumbags.

but at least their parts are written. They're more animated than anybody gay in the movie. Hank's, his lover, and his mother are in a silent film. All their dialogue put together couldn't cover... This is what he wrote. Yes. Hank's character is an utter cipher. I couldn't tell you anything about him.

Opinions, beliefs, or whatever, or whether he's even gay. Tom Hanks does not act in this movie. His makeup does his acting. I haven't seen so many changes hinged on shades of Max Factor. Wait, sorry, I wouldn't get this right. I haven't seen... so many changes hinged on shades of max factor since James Cagney in Man of a Thousand Faces. Now, Larry Kramer, what was Larry when he died?

Was he in his 90s? Yeah. He had a lot of, he had decades of references, but also decades of anger. And I think his criticism to this movie, writ small and writ large, are legitimate. Yeah. They're true. We'll take a break and we've got to talk about Demi and Hanks and Denzel. If you thought HBO's euphoria was intense in high school, saddle up.

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vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. All right. So to capture the moment with the three principles of these movies, Demi's coming off, Silence of the Lambs, which won every single Oscar they gave out that year. I think it won 45 Oscars, 52 Oscars. I can't remember the exact number. Really interesting career up to that point, like he did music videos, the Talking Heads movies, something wild, swimming in Cambodia, married to the mob. But then I don't think anybody realized he would make two of kind of the defining early 90s movies. He wrote it with

this guy Larry Nice Swainter, Nice Swainer wrote it. And they were talking about how they really wanted to do something about in this world and do something about AIDS,

whether that came off of the silence of the lamb stuff, who knows? But the writer says, he said, quote, terms of endearment was a good model for us

because although Deborah Winger dies, you don't say it's a movie about cancer. It's about a mother-daughter relationship. What we were looking for was that second thing. And that's how they ended up in the courtroom. I thought that was an interesting way to frame it, Chris, because this is, it's an AIDS movie, but it's also a courtroom movie, but it's also, the thing I think I like the most about it is it's a

family movie. There's not that many scenes with the family, but the family scenes hit the hardest. Yeah, and it's kind of like the family and this movie while being pretty angelic and there's not a lot of tension within that family, but you can draw a straight line between the family and this movie and the family and Rachel getting married. You know, like, Jonathan Demby had great reverence for the family and, like, is able to cast people with faces with seemingly, like, emotional connections to one another that feels really authentic. Yeah. He kind of peaked with this two movies stretch, Wesley. Then he did, he bounced, like, did a lot of commercial stuff. And I just think, it seemed like he

had a great, really fun career and just did the kind of shit he wanted and was not in that camp of I got to release a movie every year. I still feel like looking at his IMDB, he's like three movies short for me. I just wanted more of him and, you know, he had the career he had, but I just wish he had done more. He's worship, though. Oh, no, I get it. But the thing is, it's like, it's like looking at a basketball reference page of somebody and they play like nine seasons. And like, man, it would be nice that they played 14. Yeah, it's just like also, I think movies changed. Like he hits his peak right when, like, you can make $200 million with Philadelphia. And he makes beloved after this.

And, you know, I mean, like, I, there's plenty of stuff he did afterwards I liked. But we already did a bunch of them. Like, we did Rachel, Silence of Lambs is one of the first ones. Rachel's getting married. Rachel, that one we did, like maybe we did that for fucked up February. That's right. Fugged a Family February. Wesley, what's the kind of movie or what is the specific movie you wish he had directed?

because I think he had a really outsized influence on some of the directors who were in their primes now. Like Paul Thomas Anderson, specifically, it's like this guy was the biggest influence, him and Robert Altman, were the two biggest influences I had. What else would you have wanted from him?

I don't know, just more. I think that, you know, I think that toward the last phase of his career, he got simultaneously more ambitious, technically and formally, but also really squishy.

I mean, I think, I mean, Rachel getting married is not one of my favorite movies. I think there's a lot left on the table in some ways in terms of how much darker and more complex that movie could have been. It felt to me like there was a bigger, deeper, more febrile movie underneath the one that got released. And I think his interest in gathering these people

and having a party, sort of that took over what was actually really a movie about damage and, you know, interpersonal trauma versus something like the truth about Charlie, which he made, was that two years before Rachel getting married? Yeah. And it is maybe my favorite demi movie after Stop Making Sense. And partially that's because he didn't have to do everything that he did. does in it, right? Like, it could have been a straight-ahead caper movie, but instead

it's sexy, it's funny, it's got all these really great, interesting to look at actors from different parts of the world, all converging on this caper plot. He just cast the people who he liked and not necessarily what the box office would respond to.

Tandy Newton had the great 90s that nobody really, the great late 90s that nobody quite appreciates because the movies weren't hits. Yeah. Beloved, she and Kimberly Elise,

and Jonathan Demi's version of Tony Morris's beloved, like she and Kimberly Elise give two of the, that's some of the best acting I've ever seen anybody doing anything. And I don't know how you play Beloved the way Tandy Newton plays her.

But Jonathan Demi, again, is very good at directing actors. And he can get an actor to do pretty much anything, especially if there's material there for the actor to kind of work with. But I love Truth About Charlie and I think that if he had made more,

if he had been interested in like, I mean, I'm going to use this term because that's what it felt like the truth about Charlie wasn't the most genuine, legitimate, earned way, but like multiculturalizing old Hollywood text, because that movie is a remake of charade

with the Stanley Donan movie with Audrey Hepburn and Carrie. Grant. And I just, he's so interested in non-white people, non-white culture. You do that of Rachel getting married too. He had she married. But that's kind of the problem with the movie

though in a weird way. It's like they, that feels so ornamental to the matter at hand. Yeah. And none of those people have anything to do. It's a little bit like Kramer's complaint about Tom Hanks in this movie, which I mean, I'll get to like what I think is really going on there later. But I think he's just so good at throwing parties. I would have loved to have seen him make more of those, particularly because a lot of them are, like,

he didn't really do period pieces. Well, can I tell you what? Can I tell you what my favorite demi movie is? Sure. It puts the lotion on the skin again, or it gets the hose. I thought for a second you were going to say married to the mom. That's what I thought he was going to say too, Chris.

Don't you hurt my dog, lady! Iconic director. Hanks, we've talked about the Hanks run a bunch of times because we've done a bunch of these rewatchables now, Chris. League of their own, Sleepers in Seattle, Philadelphia, Forrest Gump, Apollo 13, Toy Story, that thing you do, he directs, saving Private Ryan, you've got Mail,

Toy Story 2, the Green Mile, and Castaway. Yep. All in nine years. It's why he's the goat. Sean Fantasy can fuck off. And then catch me if you can's right after that, right? Yeah, it's two years later. That's just like a, that's a nine-year movie career,

and he went from being the guy from Bozum Buddies, and then, oh, the guy from Splash and Big. I like that guy to, oh, my God, why did he do Bonfire of the Vanity's? Is he going to be okay to ripping off the best nine years? But I think this was the most important year for him, because Sleepless in Seattle, rom-com, huge hit, and then he makes this movie and gets his dramatic chops.

And he goes back-to-back with Oscars, right? Back-to-back with Oscars. not a small thing because he wins Forrest Gump the next year. Do you remember what you thought of them casting Hanks in this movie at the time? I mean, this movie gets made because of that, right? Like, he's the biggest movie star in the world. Like, if he doesn't do this,

I don't know if this movie actually gets made or in what kind of... It was the big swing celebrity actor era where they all had to do some sort of part where something... The character had something extra that stood out. And then that culminated in, unfortunately Jody Foster and Nell, which was the worst version.

Maybe Sean Penn and I am Sam. That would be a fun month because I'm really reaching for the Oscar month. And then it was perfectly parodied in Tropic Thunder with Ben Afflex, whatever that movie with the fake trailer for whatever. Ben Stiller, that fake movie with the special needs character where he'd parodyed all that stuff. Bill, have you been enjoying True Detective Nell country? Hey, listen. we got one,

are you probably have seen more than one episode. I've seen one episode and I'm all in and leave, leave JF out of this. I love it.

She's fantastic. She's good. She's great. Leave her alone and like we should just do a whole conversation about her some other time.

Well then we get the Denzel in 1992 to 2001 stretch. Bill, can I ask a question? Yeah. Between Bonfire of the vanities and Philadelphia, what was Tom Hanks up to?

And besides Lupus in Seattle? He took a year off and then did League of their own and that started the run. Because there had to be some other movie after Bonfire that would have because there's no way this movie gets made without some other kit. I forgot about, I forgot about

League of their own because this Well, as you know, he was in a bird and magic battle with Michael Keaton there for nine years. Yes. I would say it's a... And it felt like Michael Keaton had the upper hand big time after Batman and then the Immortal Pacific Heights and it just felt like he was in the driver's

and then Hank's pulled it back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because Keaton won it more than I think his capacity, his talent and range would allow for him. I mean, Pacific Heights is a classic example of it. A movie's so bad and he's so miscast in it that I think they just... Be careful, Wesley. I don't like your tone right now. Because it's on the rewatchable schedule for 2024.

Guess what? You're not invited. I can't wait to hear it. I know. There's other people who might really like that movie. It's like me and Chris, for example. I mean, have that it. So I'm glad you clarified that

because I knew there was some big hit that had to explain how this movie got made and a leak of their own is basically it. Well, Denzel is coming off of a movie called Malcolm X. And he rips off his own 1992 to 2001 run, started in Malcolm X, which just, I mean, he makes like 20 movies. I think I like 18 of them.

finally culminating in Training Day in 2001. So he's going on his own ripping on. I'm not even going to list all the movies. There's too many of them. But he's ripping off his own run here. But yet we cover this in the Pelican Brief pod, which Pelican Brief came out, I think a couple weeks before this movie.

Yeah. Where he picks Julie Roberts and Tom Hanks. Julie Roberts is the biggest actress in the world. Hanks isn't the biggest actor in the world, but he's in the top like seven or eight. And this is the last time, Wesley. that Denzel is in a movie where he's not the lead. It never happens again.

Yeah. But as it turns out, you guys, I don't know, I guess we can get to this later during the categories, but I mean, he is the lead of this movie. I 100% agree. Oh,

this is like Jody Foster being the lead of Sounds of the Lambs is the Hopkins. He's the main character. Yeah. This is a little bit, I mean, all right, so we do this now? Can I bring this point up now?

Go ahead. I think this movie is very important. I think it's important politically in a way that Larry Kramer doesn't have time for. And I understand why he does not have time for it. I think that it really does do a thing that I think politically was necessary to get this country to the place that it currently is on gay people, gay marriage, gay rights, etc. I think it helped. There are a number of things that had. I mean, I think that whole 90s era.

So it helped more than Melrose Place, you think? Well, we can joke, but I think that like the Mel, I think all of those cultural events, whether they were scandalous or not, from Melrose place to Ellen to Gregoraki and Tom Caitlin. Pedro Zamora. Yeah. You know, Dennis Rodman doing what Dennis Rodman had, you know.

That's a good one. I should have put that on my list. his gender exploration there was so much happening during this period and I think that I mean the reason I'm saying that Philadelphia is the vogue of this

of that moment even though Vogue is probably also the vogue of that moment but I mean for Hollywood this is the thing this is the watershed essentially that if not if it doesn't open a floodgate on a lot of movies

about you know books actors aren't coming out of the closet. You get a lot of movies about gay life and gayness that aren't explicitly tied to AIDS, but you also get a lot of AIDS movies. You get things that don't make a lot of money like Jeffrey and In-N-Out. You get these stories about people and their sexuality. In-Out's a good one.

Directly linked to this movie. They don't necessarily happen without this. But my point is this movie really makes a different. family destroying, like culturally alienating, interpersonally alienating experience, both being gay and having AIDS, palatable in a way that culture is

sort of one of the aims of art and culture is trying to do. Like this is swimming alongside in a very fancy boat. All of that cheap, dangerous, radical art that's being made on the margins of American mainstream popular culture. That also

was moving the needle, scaring the shit out of people and getting them to really reconsider their political and personal positions on this moment. And I think what Philadelphia does is it really in the cheapest but like I think most

sincere possible way. I don't feel cynically about this movie at all. It ties it up in a bow and it makes it really okay to literally love your gay son, right? Which is a thing

that a movie four years before this turned into a joke, right? Like, Heather's kind of jumped the gun. I don't care. I love my gay son. Yeah, right. I love my dead gay son. Right. Right. I love my dead gay son.

I think this movie kind of resets the emotional temperature on an issue that people really weren't. Like, you were, what we were talking about earlier, it was an interpersonal crisis, right? Yeah.

Like, families didn't know what to do. And so to make this movie about this straight guy who agrees to take on this case involving a gay man with AIDS who was fired because he had it is a very meaningful

thing for straight people. It is a meaningful experience for straight people to go on this journey, but I don't want to short change what it is like to, quote, have an ally in this, on this journey.

But the idea that this guy is a straight black man is not insignificant, but in a weird way, Denzel is so good in this. And the part is written to his character's sympathies, right? Like, he's the one on the journey. Tom Hanks is literally in the side car

this trial, right? And everything that this movie is doing is asking people to try. From having Bruce Springsteen be the first voice you hear. It's a petition. To having Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington as the stars,

to having it be a courtroom drama. This movie is just like, hey man, just give it a shot. Just try. Try to be like a better person. Try to be a little bit more understanding. Try to be a little bit more sensitive. And it's,

so that's who it's being directed to, too, is to the people who have to try. It's not a piece of insider art in that way. way. It's like, it's not a piece of like confrontational art that's like you're going to have to understand like, this is my experience. In fact, it's almost entirely about Denso-Washington's experience in this movie. It's all about the things that Joe is thinking and the things that Joe is experiencing. I mean, honestly, we don't really get like, to Wesley's point. Like,

there's not even a lot about like what kind of lawyer Andy Beckett was. We see him win one case and we see him get a case. And then after that his life falls apart. They skip the getting sick. they skip whether he fucked up they skip all of that this is Joe the character's movie so you know who disagrees you to the guys Denzel Washington for a new magazine 30 years ago

because they asked them if this movie was going to really change stuff and he answered people don't change much one of the smart things about this movie is my character changes maybe eight degrees at the end he's still pretty uncomfortable with Andy's world hey that world was different for me too

but however one comes to terms with homosexuality, this is the world we live in. I mean, what are you going to do short of wiping folks in it? It's like what Rodney King said, can't we all get along? It can't get any simpler than that. So yeah, I hope Philadelphia makes a difference.

You pay $7 and eat your popcorn. It's only a movie. It ain't going to change the world. I didn't read that in a Denzel voice. I could have. But I'm sure we'll talk in some capacity about Hank's winning the Oscar and the Hank's Oscar speech,

which directly leads to in and out. but is something I hadn't watched in a while, so I checked it out last night before we recorded. And I forgot that, you know, it's like the streets of having part and like the high school drama teacher part or the kind of like the things everybody remembers. He actually goes out of his way to be like,

basically Denzel had the most on the line in this movie. Yeah. Denzel had the most at risk. And he's like, he was an incredible partner. But like, that was pretty astute and pretty candid. You know what I mean? To just be like, Denzel had the most to lose in this movie.

You know what I mean? Well, we should talk about our guy. I mean, the cast on this movie is filled with that guys and people who became bigger actors and people who are already good actors. Jason Robards. I made by Jason Robards character Hall of Fame. Let's do it.

I mean, Ben Bradley was his apex. Ben Bradley was unbelievable in all the president's men. Charles Wheeler. He's Howard Hughes. he's Frank Buckman in Parenthood The movie Parenthood Oh Frank Buckman, yes!

And then Earl Parcherge in Magnolia Oh yeah Just like fucking elite awesome characters Five great performances He's Hanks was the last person Who won back to back Oscars And before that

Jason Robards was the last person Who had won back to back Oscars But there's something about him I don't know if there's an actor like this now that he carries some sort of weight where he could be the patriarch of a family he could be the guy who's the editor-in-chief

of a newspaper during the single most important time in a newspaper's history. He's the guy in this movie who's just this fucking racist, whatever. Anything that ends with an ist, guy who runs a law firm, he was a great villain. He was also a guy who could be in like,

what was that baseball movie? Like Angels in the Outfield, he was in one of those. There's just nobody like them. I just wanted to shout out Jason Robards. I like them. Not only that, but it's funny, the movies, of course, they crystallize a person's personhood,

and they kind of trap you a little bit. And so to me, Jason Robards is always like a crusty old man. Yeah. But, I mean, also one of our great stage actors, and, you know, if you go back and find some footage of him doing anything on a stage, or like old TV movies from like the 60s, for instance. He's just, I mean, he's also really handsome. I mean, he had a, what I would say is a 50s actor face, basically.

Right. Yeah. And it was. That's what they say about Chris. They say I have a 50s actor face. Okay. No, I don't know. I'm just throwing that out there.

So best picture that year was Schindler's, fugitive, piano, remains, and then the name of the father. I don't know who are we bumping anyone from that oh god no I mean not I'm actually okay with the group director was Spielberg Jim Sheridan Jean Campion Ivery and Altman and Altman was really uh I would say a career nomination is that is that maybe a player or is it shortcuts no shortcuts shortcuts shortcut I like shortcuts but I don't know that that movie versus Demi in this movie I'm not sure the Oscar wins were Hankwin's best actor. Springsteen won Best Song. Also nominated for screenplay.

Neil Young nominated for Best Song and Makeup as well. Roger Ebert, three and a half stars. Philadelphia is a good movie, sometimes more than that. And the Hank's performance, which, after all, really exists outside the plot is one of the best of the year. Sooner or later, Hollywood had to address

one of the most important subjects of our time, and with Philadelphia, the ice has been broken. Raj, not bad. Right, we got to get to the categories because we're going to be on schedule. Most rewatchable scene. Springsteen and Philly for like four minutes with the opening credit. Chris, did you just like put on a smoking jacket and have like a Marlboro Red as you watch this? Honestly, it might be my opening credits Apex Mountain.

It's up there. It's up there with like Goodfellas. It's like. What was your favorite thing about Philly in that scene? We were like, oh. You know what? I love it when the guy throws up the deuses. I love it when like the can, like I love the fact that it's not making it like

the people are interacting with the camera, that people are waving to the camera, that people are like throwing up peace signs and like, I just love the fact that it almost feels like a documentary for a second or a whole movie. I have a confession for you guys. As you know,

I'm a giant Springsteen fan, although it's cooled off over the last few years just because he was in my life for basically my entire life. I think Streets of Philadelphia is one of his best songs. And I don't think that's a common, I think people always go, no, no.

And then there's like, the deeper you get in the spring. People are like, no, no, his best song ever is for you. You know, it goes psycho the way it does with everybody, because they're just tired of, like, the usual song. But Streets of Philadelphia is just a really good song. I think it's one of the best 90s pop songs anyone made, and I don't think it gets credit for that.

I would just say I want to, because I'm going to try to find a way to conjoin these ideas. Chris, I'm going to sing a song to you. This is what came to mind as I watched that opening title. I think Chris knows what I'm going to do. Move closer to your world friend. Take a little bit of time. Anyway, that is the Action News, Channel 6, Action News, WPBI theme song, played it every day. If you're from Philadelphia, you know inside and out what that song is doing.

And the opening bit of that every action news broadcast is this great montage of the city. Yeah. And the opening of Philadelphia, to me, is basically the action news montage. Yeah, is an extended version of the action news opening credits montage. And I love it. Quickly, rip it through rewatchable scenes. You mentioned Hanks and Denzel facing off with the cameras on them.

I really like the scene when Andy calls his mom just to check in. Yeah, she's in the kitchen. And she's fighting off tears. But just, you know, I think she's amazing in this movie. It's also a great way to let us know, like, how severe. Andy's situation is without actually explicitly saying it. But also that he's out and she knows that he's sick. It does a lot in 30 seconds.

And then that goes right into him becoming a senior associate, which is like, it's coming to the office, got this fancy awesome office, we're all smoking cigars. This is an old school boys network. And they tell him he's going to be a senior associate. And then it's the, hey, what's on your forehead, pal? He's like, oh, it's a racquetball injury. Andy going to Joe's office

That seems amazing The handshake And then it's like I have AIDS And then Denzel just kind of backing up Self-consciously And then watching the stuff he touches in the office How many lawyers do you go through before he called me Nine?

And then it fades back to how he gets fired Where he has no idea he's going to get fired And ends with Hanks Denzel doesn't want to do the trial, Joe. Hank leaves And they just kind of kick back Philadelphia. and he's got the pen hat on and he's just like, looks like the most

I'm at the end of my rope, I don't know what to do with my life. And they stay on it for a while. See, Larry Kramer's like, Hank doesn't do anything in that. I actually think he's unbelievable in that scene because he's doing a lot by doing nothing. This is probably my favorite scene in the movie.

But Kramer's point is as written. You just, I mean... Hank says has to do everything, yeah. He has to do everything because it's not on the page. Josie and Andy at the library with the shitty library guy. Who's one of those guys. I don't even know what that guy's name is.

Tracy Walter, he's just in everything. Yeah, he's in everything. And they started reading the discrimination lot together. Really good. Dr. Jay's cameo. Which we'll get into later. I have a lot of thoughts and research on that.

What a shock. Dr. Jay, just an unbelievable moment for the Sixers and him. And then they go into the alley and they start talking about, all right, how are we going to fight this? case Robards, does he frequent those pathetic bars on chest on street? And it's just, they go in like villain hell. And he brought AIDS in our office, in our men's room. We ought to be suing him, Bob. I want to know everything about his personal life. Does he frequent those pathetic bars on

chestnut? Right. What other homosexual facilities does he go to absolutely? What deviant groups or organizations does he secretly belong? First thing in the morning. Wait a minute, Bob. What is it? Let's make a fair settlement offer. This whole tragic business behind us. Bob. And they brought AIDS into our offices, into our men's room.

They brought AIDS to our annual cotton-tale family technique. We ought to be suing him, Bob. It's so pain to me. Jason Robards is, I mean, he turns himself over to the part, but like, this is one of our the greatest stage actors ever. this country's ever had. And you basically have him twirling a mustache in the bowels of

the Wakobia Center. Yeah, I mean, it's great. I really like the opening arguments, but as you know, I like all opening arguments of movies. I'll watch all of them. Mary Steenbergin comes in. She's like, fact. And she does think, then she's like, fact. Andrew Beckett is dying.

Fact. And just all the way that's laid out, Danelle's speech is fun. I like all the courtroom stuff in this movie. The opera scene. That probably won Hanks the Oscar. Maria Callas singing La Mama Morta. I'm life. Heaven in your eyes. I'm going to give this the Great Shock Order Award now, Chris.

It's fine. puts the camera up, red. Tremendous job attack Fujimoto. Was it, go on the opera scene? I just, I object. Okay. I object for pretty much one reason. Dear filmmakers of the world who are making movies about gay people in crisis,

find another color to shoot your gay person. All right. Great Shot Gordo Award for rape. Jesus. It is a very handsomely done scene, right? But was there no, did they talk about what it would mean to shoot it in red? all the conflations that just come up with that one color it's just so I mean I just don't I don't like it I don't I'm never comfortable with the signposting when it's meant to seem like the characters in hell so you shoot him in red so I've been

trained that's in kind of film language right so that when it's applied to a person who I know the people who made it don't think this person should go to hell, is not doing anything evil or depraved. Is red supposed to be the color of passion to me? Is red supposed to be the color of radians? See, that's how I took it as the passion, because it was like his passion for life and for opera. And he's trying to explain to Joe, like, I might be dying, but I want to live.

And here's why, because stuff like this moves me. I would just say try blue. Andy's testimony, where they flash back to the spot, bossing and they're making the gay jokes. And then he's like, are you a good lawyer? And he's like, I'm an excellent lawyer. Not every time, but occasionally you get to be a part of justice being done.

He's like, oh, that's cool. All the stuff about like how he idolized Charles and like cutting to Robards while he's listening to this guy. The Hank Stenzel testimony is great. And then it goes to the evil steam virgin cross-examination. Have you ever been to the Stallion Showcase Cinema on 21st Street? Boom. Yes.

I've been to that theater three times. What kind of movie is they show in that theater? Gay movies. Gay pornographic movies? Yes. It's like, oh, and they're cutting to Robards, and he's just so disgusted. And then it leads to the lesion scene,

which is, you know, a little manipulative, but pretty effective. Again, like, who is this movie for question? Like, I'm watching this with two brains, right? Yeah. I'm watching this with like what it's like what it's like do we have to watch this movie with my parent, right? Like at least my

mother. I don't think I didn't, I don't know if my dad saw I definitely did not see it with my dad. And you know, you can just, I don't know if other gay people have had this experience, but you can feel people kind of relaxing a little. I mean, not at that particular moment. But like a scene like that is, I mean, it's a demon. It's also a warning to anybody

else who is like, you know, this is what it looks like if you, if you don't already know, this is a version of what it could look like. Where do you stand, Chris? To me, it's more of like a courtroom gimmick. It's good lawyer. It's just like, it's like the redirect. It's like when Cruz grabs the guidebook off of Kevin Bacon's desk.

It's like, give me the mirror. That's what Andrew says at the end, or he says like earlier in the movie, he does a, that was good, good cross-examinate. Yeah, I like when people congratulate each other in courtroom scenes. It's always good. Charles Wheeler's testimony. Evil, evil Robarts. Read your Bible.

And then the ending, which is just... Celebratory in some ways. Well, Denzel going to the hospital to see him. And the movie does a... Demi does a lot of, like, small things. Like, they're clearly talked to the doctor and they're finding out that Andy's going to be dead soon. And they see him like, hey, but you can tell their mind's another place.

He goes in, has that moment with the oxygen mask. And then the camera just stays there And the family says goodbye to him One at a time Oh, the brother, the brother. The brother breaks down, like the mom, It's just, that seems unbelievable. And then Miguel finally says goodbye

It cuts to the Neil Young song. This is one of the saddest Last 10 minutes of a movie. I think that exists. Can I just, is that your whole, is that everything? That's all for rewatchable scenes unless you got anything else.

I, I gotta say, the best scene in the movie to me, is the one where he comes home to the wife and gives his whole homophobic tyrant. And he finds out that Aunt Teresa is a lesbian. That scene, to me, is the realest scene in the movie, right? Interesting, okay. Because, first of all, it's private, right?

There's not a scene for anybody else. It's one of the few moments in which nobody's performing for anybody else. And this man gets to be who he fully is with his wife and his newborn daughter. You have a problem with gays, Joe. Not especially. Yes, you do.

How many gays do you know? How many you know? Lots. Like who? Karen Berman. My aunt Teresa. Cousin Tommy, who lives in Rochester. Eddie Myers from the office.

Stanley, the guy who's putting in our kitchen cabinets. Aunt Teresa is gay. That beautiful, sensuous, voluptuous woman. as a lesbian? Duh. Since when? Probably since she was born. Meanwhile, she's cooking dinner,

but who's wearing the apron? Well, he goes on this homophobic tirade. Right? He's in this apron with a bottle in one hand and a drumstick, a giant turkey drumstick in the other. And there's something so I have this uncle.

I have been friends with this dude. Like, in some cases, the guy turned out to be gay and I want to ask a question about this later. But I think that scene is so good because it's lived in. Yeah. Denzel seems

so comfortable in his bravado about how right he is. And then the wife, like his, like the way his face falls when he finds out the aunt's gay, he just can't believe it. This fine voluptuous woman is wasting herself on

other women. The list of people she goes through in the whole show. He's like Eddie Myers from the office. Like Eddie Myers!

Here we go. What do you have from those rewatchable scene, Chris? I actually have one that goes straight into what age

the best and it's my favorite scene is when he finds out he's been promoted. It's the one when they bring him in and he comes

into the office. It's, I think it's the cigars. Of the POV head-on camera shots that Demi employs that are,

he uses it in so many different ways. sometimes it's to confront people, sometimes it's to make you feel like you're being confronted as an audience member. And in this case, there is,

you immediately know that there is something off about the partners. Like the way that he's shot at a distance, and it's like, Tom Hanks is sort of performatively being like, oh, right! And like clapping and like kind of glad handing and stuff. And I'm like,

but the shoe is going to drop. You can tell that something is going to happen when you, so there's something about that scene and also like just like the wood paneling old boys club shit that is just like really well rendered. And there's like a huge like strain of that in Philadelphia like racket club culture.

Oh yeah. I mean it kind of rhymes with that one of the greatest sequences in any movie I've ever seen in trading places. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. That great banquet sequence which is just like a feat of

comedic like formal blocking and shot making. and just human choreography. It's just amazing. So that's my favorite, Bill, just because I think it's a great example of Debbie using his camera.

And I always like going back to him. My most rewatchable scene is Dr. Jay's cameo. And then I would have him go in to see if Joe will take the cases number two. We'll take a break. You've got what's age the best. We're behind schedule. The playoffs are here,

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18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to by LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Well, marketers know the feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's not such a great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bullspend.

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And it was probably some of the best stuff Banderas has done, even though it's not like the greatest written character. But it's that, I don't know, I just liked it. Hanks's Oscar speech Chris mentioned that it led to an actual movie in and out. I think that's aged pretty well. I have a bunch of others. Do you have anything, CR? What do you got? I just really love the fact that at the end of the

callus scene, they leave Andy alone. Like Denzel leaves. Joe's like, I gotta get out of here. Because in any other director's hands, they would be like maybe a soft fade out or like, we'll like have this be. We're going to end it on the climax of this guy like almost becoming an

angel. And instead they're like, ah, it's awkward. You sang. You're like, you know what I mean? I'm going to go now. And like, now you're alone after your party. And that's just, that's real life. And that's why I like Jonathan Demi.

Wait, I have a question, though. This is how you know the movies about Denzel because we don't see what you just talked about, Chris. We just assume that's what's happening. We're never alone with Hanks. Right? We're never alone with Denzel. There's a last shot of him as Joe leaves.

And there's a last shot of Andy, like, alone in his kitchen, basically. Right. And when he leaves the lawyer's office, it's always an exile, though. Or like at a particular He's in a hospital bed. But that scene after the aria,

the great moment is when Denzel leaves the apartment. He's like, he feels uncomfortable. I gotta get out of here. He's gonna cry or something and he doesn't want Annie to see him. So he gathers up his stuff

and he leaves the apartment, gets to the steps to go downstairs, and then stops. And he turns around with his Halloween costume and his, you know, his lawsuit.

The Jackman's Halloween costume is, he goes as a lawsuit. He's about to knock on the door. And then he has this great actorly moment where he is adjusting himself,

pulling up his pants. Like, what is he going to do? He doesn't do it. But what did he turn around? What did he intend to do in turning around and not knocking on that door?

My interpretation was he just felt like the guy was in such a vulnerable spot. Maybe he shouldn't have left. Yeah, And was going back. Oh, no. Where are you going with this?

I don't know. No, no, no. I'm not going there. No. But I do. You think he was like, Miguel looked pretty good in that Navy outfit. But where's Miguel in that moment?

Like, Miguel's not there. Miguel's taking a bath. I just wonder, I don't think that he was going back for sex. I just think that. That would have been an amazing take. You saved that for Stephen A. Smith-Hiss hot. That's right.

Anyway, I just think that's a great moment for Dead Town, even though it comes at the expensive thing alone with Tom Hanks. Morewood's stage the best. The sense of family in this movie, which we talked about earlier, I love how he uses a couple of Silence of the Lambs people in this, including Charles Napier. Yeah. Who last was seen in Silence of the Lamb,

getting handcuffed to Hannibal Lecter's cage, and then getting clubbed to death. It's my impression. to him. All the Philly rich guy stuff I really enjoy like this. It's a little trading place as this. These guys definitely

knew Randolph from Baltimore. It's real. That aspect of Philadelphia is real. The fear of lesions, marks, and sores in the 80s and early 90s, I thought was captured accurately. Hank's getting blood work

done when he looks at the dying guy for a split second, and that's all they do to be like, this guy's, it's not going great. Like, he sees kind of the future. I thought that was well done.

Andy's gay movie theater mustache is fantastic. Great job by Hanks. I don't know if he's ever, does he ever had a, what other movies does Hanks had a mustache in? That's a great question, Bill.

I mean, you always ask the right ones. No, there's another one. And it's like, he's got a little bit of a purport to do. He kind of looks like Gabe Kaplan. Oh,

but you know, I got to say, I'm not really, I don't find, I mean, Tom Hanks is, not a boat floater for me. Yeah.

As a physical person. I mean, he's one of my favorite human beings. No, it's the scene where he goes to solicit Denzel to be the lawyer. And he's got a little stubble. I've never seen him look like that before. He's got a little stubble in the baseball cap on. And I'm like, yeah. You're in.

Like, I don't like the word cute, but like Tom Hanks is looking cute. And that's, you are the same person who said bearded O.J. Simpson was the most handsome man, whoever lived. One of the greatest takes of all time. I stand by that. Oh, Jesus.

I love, for what stage is the best, I love jury deliberations and verdicts just in general. We cover this in courtroom, but I love, there's always the guy in the jury who's like the leader of the jury

and he's like, it's a great twist too because you think the whole time that guy is like, yeah, I'm team Robards, and then he sits down and he's just like, if I got my pilot

and my $350 million plane, and it's like, oh shit. Yeah. And then would somebody please explain that to me like I'm a six-year-old? I also love verdicts. I mean, the best one ever is Jack Warden reacting to the verdict and the verdict. But the brother turning around and doing the holy shit face to Denzel, like that whole one, I love that part.

Robarts as a villain, we mentioned, Joanne and Woodward as Andy's mom, fantastic. Springsteen, this is one of only two songs. the other was Carly Simons let the river run from Working Girl to win an Oscar Golden Globe and Grammy

for a one by one artist and then last but not least Robert Ridgely is one of the evil lawyers I was waiting I was like how do we get like an hour

into this and the kernel has it come up Charles Wheeler says you have a great big cock may I see it that's what this movie needed more of honestly but like in the

flattening of cinema history it's almost impossible to watch Philadelphia if you've seen boogie nights because originally... You can't. You can't. Any other words? The best for you guys?

We can move on. Good. Kid Cuddy Pursuit a Happiness Award. Needle drop. Opening credits, Springsteen. Chris, did you have anything for Big Cooner Burger? I sure did, Bill.

Thanks for asking. It's famous Fourth Street deli, which Denzel goes into to grab a sandwich before he goes to the law library. They have the best cookies in America. Oh, great. Denny Thieves Benny Hanna Award, scene stealing location.

Obviously a random 76ers. a Orlando Magic Game in 1993. Congrats to everybody for that. The Butch's Girlfriend Award Weeklink of the film. We already kind of covered this, but just did Denzel go too far in the cross-examination? It's like him asking Bradley Whitford, he was a pillow bitter, a rump roaster, all that. Like, I feel like they might have dialed that up a little too much. But it does lead to, in this courtroom, justice is applying.

And then Denzel, I think I was going to ask this later, I'll just do now. Is this the most Denzel moment of his career when he goes, with all due respect, Your Honor. We don't live in this courtroom, do we? I don't think anybody, that's like, is that the, is that the number one Denzel line? No. I mean, I guess, I guess, the number one Denzel line.

What's like the best of you just take one line? No, I'm not even saying proud of. I'm saying, what is the most Denzelie line he's ever delivered? Oh, ever, ever, ever? Just in a movie. I think probably Kong. Kong and got showing me. Kong ain't got nothing on me.

Plymouth Rock didn't land. I mean, it's, there's some, he's an extremely quotable movie star. Yeah. For a person who does not improvise. I was trying to think like Jay Farrow's doing Denzel and S&L. We did really good. He is not doing Philadelphia.

No, he did that with all due respect, Your Honor. Like that was one of his Denzel's. Um, what's age the worst? Oh boy. They have three homophobia scenes with Denzel. Mm-hmm. Too many or too little?

I mean, if I'm Jonathan Demi and I understand my movie to be making a political point and we want to see this man on his journey and we're doing the classic Hollywood thing of having a person who is guilty of the thing writ small that the movie writ large is about

in this case, homophobia and you know, in racism, in movies about racism the side that the main guys are racist but he's not as racist as the institutions around him. Yeah. Right?

Denzel is not as homophobic as the law firm, right? And so he has to go on this journey from like hardcore homophob to, I'd hug a gay guy with AIDS. You have to believe that. I would cut out the bar scene personally.

The bar scene, but the bar scene doesn't work, I don't think. I don't think you need it. I think the movie is the same movie. But if you're Demi and you see how good Denzel is in each and one of those scenes, Don't you? I mean, like the drugstore scene. Drugstore scene is good.

I mean, he's like, the scene is fucked up, but it's true. I have been gripped up by dudes who, I mean, in Denzel's case, it did not seem like he was trying to come on to that dude. And that is not necessarily how it normally goes. You get way more cues than that. That guy really overstepped. Yeah. You know, I have also been gripped up by the Denzel's of the world. Not actually Denzel.

But, you know, you catch up, you catch something, and the guy catches you catching him, and he wants to murder you. So there's a kernel of truth in that scene, and Denzel is playing the thing that really happens, even though the screenplay doesn't want that to be the case. One other, what stage is the worst, they cut out some Hank's Bandera scenes,

which I guess are on the DVD edition, but that's where they chose to strip the movie was that. And it feels two scenes short. What else do you got, Chris? I think that there, is some stuff like missing from this the courtroom drama aspect of it. And I think that the the layup that seems to be like at the end where it's just like, yeah, of course we're going to we're going to sigh with Andy in this as the jury.

It's like they don't show what's going on. Like I mean, like they don't like there's this illusion that Bradley Whitford has like basically sabotaged Andy with the with the file that he clearly leaves on his desk. but it's just very unclear about like what happens in that whole thing and then also like how the partners came to the conclusion that they needed to get rid of Andy who up until that point was really just like working from home basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I just think that and I think that there's actually a shot in the trailer where Andy is at the office running around looking for hard disks like trying to find the file and it just seems as though that part of the movie kind of got cut out. It doesn't affect whether or not I think it's a good movie or whether I like it But as a courtroom drama, I think it's a little flawed. It becomes a little bit more about a public opinion about homosexuality. Yes. Can I just say real quick another thing along those lines, Chris?

We have not talked about Anna Devere Smith's two scenes to this movie, but, you know, one of our great monologous, one of our great monologist, one-woman's show artists. Anna DeVier-Smith plays one of the, she's frequently in Jonathan. She's the paralegal, yeah. And she is promoted to be head of paralegal services. great job for a black woman. It's only, anyway, we don't even get into the truth

about jobs at that company. But at some point, she's on the stand and the very subject comes up. Like, you know, she is experienced and been made to feel

uncomfortable in her workplace. And at some point, Mary Steenbergin is like, but ma'am, like, explain to me how this discomfort is stopping your, like,

a miraculous assent up the ladder of this company. Like, what does this have to do with anything? And in real, like, art life, Anna W. Smith would have had a 90-minute monologue about what Mary Steenberg is failing to realize about what it's like for a black woman at this law firm. And that

earring story that I just told you, that's the tip of the iceberg. And it doesn't have to be about somebody calling you the N-word. But instead, she just sits there and she goes, well, it's not as simple as you're making it sound like it is. Case closed. That's it. I just feel like that would, that scene would definitely get some great playwright to rewrite it, including Anna Devere Smith right now. I had her coming up later. Was there a better title for this movie? I don't think so.

I actually really liked the title. So the original title was People Like Us. That's better. Really? Sounds like a sitcom. It's true. But I like it. People like us.

It sounds like, we're people like us. Best quote, faith is the belief in something in which we have no evidence. It does not apply in this case. I thought that was solid. Stephen A. Smith,

hottest take award. I didn't really have one for this one. I think we covered stuff at the top. C.ard, do you have one? I kind of sold out on it in the first part of the pod, but I was just going to say that this is Denzel's movie, and it's Joe Miller's movie. And the idea that it's like,

Tom Hanks' best actor, I get it, but it was really like, it's about Denzel Washington's character. Ding-Ding, ding-Ding, ding-Ding. Casting what-ifs? Wesley, I'm glad you're sitting down. Daniel DeLewis was offered the role of Andrew Beckett, turned it down. Wait, did he say why? I think he did in the name of the father instead.

Yeah, okay. Fair. I mean, that part is a part. Our second choice to play Andrew Beckett. Hold on. The market correction police have walked in the door because the second choice was Michael Keaton. And he said no. He said no?

And he turned it down. And from that moment, the Hank's keeping flip happens. Oh, wow. Yeah, tough one. Apparently, Bill Murray and Robin Williams were considered for the role of Joe because they wanted somebody to be comic. Yeah, somebody a little more funny, and they decided that's a bad idea. Once Denzel want to do it.

John Leguizumbo was offered the role to Miguel and turned it down to play Luigi in the film Super Mario Brothers. Hmm. Springsteen's first choice for a contribution was Tonal of Love, which had already existed. There's one more casting what if that is psychotic. What did he got? It was James Woods for Charles Wheeler. Oh, wow.

That actually would have been pretty good. That would have been terrifying. That would have been unbelievable. Yeah, so Springsteen was like, here's this old song I have ton of love with them. He's like, how about make a new fucking song, buddy? So he did that. One of my favorite brusses, though, not to be that Bruce guy, but like that. Tonal loves a great.

Ruffalo Hanna Rubenac Partridge Overacting Award If you want to be unkind It's the it's the Maria Callistine There's not a lot of other examples In the movie There's not a lot I'd say Robards

Danny McBride Award For Playing Yourself Honorable mention South Palantoneo as a reporter Outside the courtroom And then our winner Dr. Jay Who we're still getting to later

How Best that guy award Ridgley, Castle, Dowd Napier, Bedford Lloyd, Annadvere Smith, is that guy to some people? But I would say it's the brother who Denzel turns around and Hanks's his brother. He's one of those guys.

I still don't know what that guy's name is. John Bedford Lloyd. That's who that is. Okay. Also, just shout out Chandra Wilson from Grey's Daddy. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Putting on his makeup in the apartment. Wait, Ann Dowd, really, I didn't. I was like, I know her, I know her, I know her. and then I just watch the credits and I'm like oh my god it was hand down holy cow

okay Dian Waiters I think Robards is in it probably too much so Anna DeVare Smith I think this is her spot I think she's good at this movie I is

I don't totally know about the character but she's got two scenes and she nails both of them and comes in hot I think that if I I don't know whether this is because I know it's Joanne Woodward but because I know it's

Joanne Woodward I'm like it's fucking Joanne Woodward for two scenes. So that was my D-on Waiters. That or Mayor Ed Rendell? I think she's in it too much, but yeah, if she qualifies, that's a good run. I'll give it.

Recasting Couch, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really touch anyone in this movie, at least in the major parts. Half Ascent internet research, the events of the film were borrowed from attorneys Jeffrey Bowers and Clarence Kane. Both of them had AIDS discrimination things.

That's where they got that. Hanks lost 30 pounds. When Steamburgeon says, I hate this case. That's something she actually said to Demi about how much she hated playing this character and he's like, who's that in a scene. Bob Seidman,

who that character was played It's Ron Votter, right? Ron Vaughner. B-N-W-T-E-R, yep. Who is HIV positive in real life and they had a whole insurance thing trying to get him. The U.S. military uniform

in the Halloween, that Halloween party was an obvious at that point there was the total ban on gays and lesbian serving the air forces. Demi wanted to do this movie because one of his close friends, an illustrator, had been diagnosed with AIDS,

so that's what he cared about. And that's it. Apex Mountain. Oh, boy. Denzel, no. Hanks, probably Forrest Gump. But we're close.

We're close. Forrest Gump, though, Chris? I don't know so sometimes I'm just it's like the 92.95 is Apex Mountain. Are you saying it's just like the year that he is in or like the moment that he is in? I love that we're 323 movies in and we still haven't figured at Apex Mountain. When did he have the most juice ever? Here's what I'll say. He doesn't miss for three straight years. Yeah. And it's just like so like the actual plateau of Apex Mountain is huge. So it's like it's almost like four mountains. He's just like he's just like he's, like a zip lining on Apex Mountain to the next Apex Mountain. He's in a Rockies range of Apex Mountains right here. Demi, it's either Silence of the Lambs or this.

I think it's this. Yeah, when Hanks gets up there and he says, like, thanks to Jonathan Demi and actors who are in his movies, like, they are attached to Oscars. Like, he basically is like, this dude is like the Oscar Whisperer. What do you have for Bandaris? Probably not

this. No. I mean, first of all, he was already at a different Apex when he left Almodivar to come do this stuff, right? Yeah. Like, he was already a star in Spain. Anybody who went to an art house in the U.S. I think it's before this. It's probably like early 90s.

Yeah. I mean, delivering dialogue into a camera, Apex Mountain. I think they had on shots. Yeah. I think they had odd shots in this, yeah. Springsteen, no. But Springsteen, Springsteen used in movies? Has it ever been better?

Springston used in movies, sure. Yeah. gay 90s movies I don't know No It's like we had a few good ones Philadelphia movies Probably not

Evil Robards I don't think he's ever been more evil No this is This is definitely He couldn't He couldn't do better than this Cartoon homophobia Has there ever been done better?

Oh I mean does Philip Seymour Hoffman in talented Mr. Ripley count Oh It's pretty good. I mean, I feel like that really tripped a lot of censors for me. Tommy. Yeah.

As a peeping. Chris, was this Apex Mountain for the Stallion Showcase Cinema on 21st Street or no? If only it existed, right? I mean, we've done so much good work on this podcast about the combat zone. Pickin' Nets. Would 10 lawyers really run away from Andrew's case? That's what Larry. It's like a great case.

Larry Kramer was like this is like a home run case. I wrote that down before Larry Kramer. Okay, you beat him to it. It just seems like the layup of layups, this case. The guy, you know, whether you could say like concealing AIDS is a good defense for the law firm, I'm going to say no. But I just feel like somebody would have taken that case and been like, you know what, this seems like a good case. We'll make some money on this one. And he ends up having to get Denzel.

I had an issue with that. How would they know that Andrew went to the gay movie theater, specifically. How do they research shit like that? Private Investigator talks to his friends, talks to... How's that going to come up? But that's like also a whole missing piece of this movie, right? Yeah. What, Wesley, have any nipicks? I mean, the whole relationship between Andy and Miguel, right? Like, I just feel like the movie wants you to have sympathy for the idea of gay people, right?

It doesn't want you to truly experience, like, the gay people as human as defined by the gay people. It wants you to experience gay people as tolerated and tolerable, right? It's like, it's kind of, I mean, this movie to me is doing the same work that Green Book is doing, right? It's not as reprehensible as Green Book, but it is, its aim is similar. Right? Yeah. But the reason this movie is sort of, the reason I don't mind it as much

is because it is a movie of its moment and it isn't nostalgic. It is really set in the present. And it is trying to do good, contemporary political work without ever having to really be political. All I'm saying is that that relationship comes at the expense of

the details of that relationship, basically. I mean, you just, you want more of what those people are like with each other. And the movie can kind of claim we're keeping their relationship private because it's it's kind of like the family when he's just like some bad, some, some private stuff, some uncomfortable stuff's going to come out about me in this trial. And the entire family is just like, you're the best. Don't even worry about it. We don't care. I love it.

What a family. But it's like, and I think that there's just no tension on the Andrews side of things at all. It's just like everybody is completely supportive. Would you have thrown a brother-in-law in there who's kind of side-eyeing Andy? Yeah. Don't hold my son. Well, it would be more about like the lifestyle or, you know, you never supported me. Why are you supporting me?

Something. Chris, you have any in the nitpicks? No, they're all like really like minor like things about the case. Like I always drives me crazy to watch this movie. And Andy's secretary is like, Yeah, sure, Andy. I'll check for that. Like, that highly important document

that may determine the future there's law firm. Like, I'll get to that. And then, like, she's the one crying on the stand afterwards. Yeah. Jamie couldn't find it. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV,

all black cast are untouchable. What about a late 90s sequel where Miguel uses the windfall from the verdict and he opens a gay sports bar in Philly? Let's just work shopping. Ooh. And then Danny DeVito

and the crew. crew coming in. It's a prequel to it's always sunny in Philadelphia. The sequel to Philadelphia is the prequel it's always study. I like that. I really,

I'm in. I honestly would, like, I would have watched a couple more Joe Miller movies. I also, I would have, you are speaking.

Speak. Yeah. Now Joe Miller. Now he's taking on disabilities. Or Joe Miller takes on corrupt cops or whatever. Like, and I think also like a, you could probably.

Or could that have been a TV, like a mid-90s TV. TV show, like an NYPD blue spin-off where it's like Joe Miller. Joe Miller as a title. Yeah. Yeah. But you understand that this is the problem with the movie.

Is that we're more interested in Joe? Andy's dead. And we're out here trying to get Joe some more work. Yeah, Joe's the TV guy. Joe's about to be better called Saul. Yeah. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trail, Catherine, and Steve Buscemi, Sam Jackson,

J.T. Walsh, Byron Mayo, or Philip Baker Hall. Do we add Robert Ridgely to this character? That's, I mean, or is too much of a monkey rich. The shopping list is getting really long. Do we ever take people off? I don't know. Who should take off?

Is Harling Mays on this now from flight? Oh, Harling Mays is on this. Yes, this will be better with Harling Mays? Wow. I would love just one moment of seeing Sam Jackson play Joe Miller. You know, that's what you would have him do? Yeah. It's a different movie.

Are you a punk? Yeah. But in 1993, he could have been the doctor who explains AIDS. And in that great moment, is like, it's okay. I mean, I'm going to give you a test. Just so you can have your peace of mind. And then Del is like, yo, I'm not on the D.L. That's not what this is.

When he's like, I don't ask what you do in your personal life. It's like, Denzel's like, uh-uh. No, we're not doing that today. I feel like we could have worked J.T. Walsh and Philip Baker Hall into into law. A law firm. For sure. Yeah.

really easily. Just want to ask her who gets it. Well, Hank's got it. Probably in answerable questions. So obviously I became obsessed with what Sixers Magic game was that. The play they show is a Tim Perry post-up. So Tim Perry was in the Barclay trade,

which was summer in 92. For Hornacek, yeah. I don't know if you remember that trade, Chris. Jim Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Langford, Charles Barkley with no draft picks in it. Wow. Tough one. Early 90s NBA.

Shit like that. Doug Moe takes over. I don't even know what the equivalent of that trade now would be if the Celtics traded Jason Tatum for like a starting guard who was an all-star and two bench guys. Yeah. We're like, that's the trade, guys. That's it.

My dad never recovered from that trade, by the way. I mean, many Philadelphians didn't. I mean, they're fine now. It basically took until Iverson. For as much as I like Johnny Dawkins and Hersey Hawkins, it took a while. Yeah. Yeah, if the Celtics traded Jason Tate him for Austin Reeves, Rue Hatchamora, and Jackson Hayes. And they're like, that's the trade, guys.

Crucially, and all of those guys have like nine-year contracts. It wasn't like, oh, we can get off of this in a second. But go ahead. How did you figure out this was the magic? So it was the 92-93 season, and it was Orlando versus the Sixers. Sixers were 26 and 56th and their first post-Barkly season. Orlando is 41 and 41. Shack is not on the floor, but that would have been the first Shaq season.

And we know they're filming the movie during that year. So there's three Orlando at Philly games. But Greg Kite, former Celtic, is on the floor. Oh, my God. How did you do this? It's like a long before I shot. So I went out basketball reference to box scores. Great Kite did not play in the January 18th, 1993 game that Philly won an OT by six.

So that's out. November 18th, 1992, Orlando wins 1.20 to 110. Kite played 14 minutes. and then in April 15th, 1993, Philly plays, they win 101.85 and kite plays. There's a crucial thing,

though, that you can see the scoreboard at the top of the scene. And it looks like it says 46-54, and there's definitely 106 left, so it's first half. So it went back, the halftime of the 11-18 game,

the score was Orlando 56, Philly 46. This is fucking Jim Garrison in front of the zone. a pruder film. I mean, it's a beautiful mind is what it is. Tim Perry misses the post up and they're at 46 points. So I don't

think they score again and then Orlando gets one more hoop. So the answer is November 18th, 1992, Orlando wins 121-10. Shack had 29 points, 19 rebounds. And the only thing really unclear about this is why Charles Willer was so into

the game. Yeah, he's like, yeah. He's like, yeah. That's how you know. The Sixers sucked that year, you wouldn't be that excited. So anyway, I figured out. This is the equivalent of him thinking all the gay bars are on Chestnut Street. Right. Yeah.

Do you have any other probably in answerables before we keep going? No. I don't. You answered every question I have. Best double-featured choice with this movie. I'm going with, and the band played on, the HBO movie. Came out the same year, and I think it was important for different reasons. Especially Richard Gear playing, obviously a Bob Fawsey type of.

playwright. He kind of vindicated the movie. It's Matthew Modin. It's an awesome movie. If anybody listening hasn't seen it's on HBO, you can find it on the Max app. But I would put those two together. What would you do, CR? Probably the HBO adaptation of Angels in America just because it's something that people can

see and it's incredible. It is like a of a piece, but a much different treatment of this issue. Wesley liked that choice. I love that choice. I would go with the Canadian avant-garde experimental musical Zero Patients. Oh, there you go.

About the beginning of the AIDS crisis. So we're covering that actually in March because it's Canadian avant-garde month. We just need three more. It's got great songs, including 5, 4, 3210 patients about, you know, it's a very good. The Indian Red Zawantanao Award for what happened the next day. Did Joe become like the biggest lawyer in Philly? Does Joe start, does Joe represent Dr. J moving forward? That's a great question

Because Jay looked at him like Oh wait Are these guys bad? Should I not be in this box? That's the look he was giving When Denzel left. Chuck, what's going on? I forgot to cover that in unanswerable questions.

Who did after Jay? Who did they have around him Where it's like, hey, Jay, can Can we read the script? I know they asked to be in the movie and you're going to pop in and you get a line But can we read the script to make sure like you're not on the side

with the virulent racist? Well, it's Dr. Jay. and then Ed Rendell's also in it. They have a couple of like real, like Philly people in there. Yeah. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie?

I thought Hanks' his pen hat would have been a good one. I would like to go back to hard discs. So I would love to get one of the hard disk. The hard disk that he has his brief on. Gentiles coats. The coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. If you're making a real life cameo in a movie,

make sure you know what the plot is. And then who won the movie, guys? Denzel Washington movie. Denzel. Not Demi? No. No. This is a great Denzel movie.

Just Denzel. How many Denzel rewatchables movies has he won? I think he's undefeated in movies. Did we give him Pelican Brief or did we give Julia Roberts Pelican Brief? I think we gave Grisham. Grisham. Yeah. Definitely Denzel wins this.

It's not even. to me, it's not even close. Well, Denzel now moves up the ladder. He was tied for fourth place for most rewatchable movies by a single actor. But Hank's also moved up the ladder. So we'll have to do the scoreboard. I have to calculate it.

But I think Denzel is undisputed number four now. Are we getting close with Philly catching Boston in rewatchable's locations? And are you aware that you're doing that? Was not aware. silver linings blow out or yeah

trading places trading places creed rocky this well we did we did rocky three rocky four

those guys all the rocky movies are under the Philly umbrella but I'll just even throw that under one Rocky

like we're getting pretty close to Boston if we're not already past it well we're even for the rewatchable store

we're going to Philly and not Boston and I have some Boston people in my life who are absolutely furious but I was like we're going to go back

we're going to do Goodwill Hunt thing in Boston with Rissillo, and it's going to be great. So they're getting their own trip. But, but yeah, Phillies, it's funny when you mentioned earlier about when they were filming Philadelphia there and you remember that, it was like, that was like a specific 1990s thing. Because we had that when they filmed blowout with Jeff Bridges and Tommy Lee Jones.

Like, I was living in Boston that year. It was blown away. Blown away, yeah. Living in Boston, that was like this huge deal. Oh my God. Jeff Bridges is here and Tommy Lee Jones. Jeff Bridges,

you think you're better than me. Hey Jeff, what are you going to be here? But they were filming all over Beacon Hill and Back Bay and it was like the biggest thing that ever happened. That in the real world Boston,

which didn't go over as well because everybody hated those guys. But yeah, it's pretty funny when that happens. All right, Wesley, anything to plug? Yeah,

I'm just, you caught me in book mode. I'm not going to like. You've been in book mode for like 10 fucking years. Jesus Christ. I'm almost done.

I'm almost done. Book mode. My decade with Wesley Morris. CR, anything to plug? You still doing content? Yeah, we're doing true detective recaps on Sunday now. People can check it out on the watch.

Did you cover the Jody Foster standing up sex scene yet? Wait a minute, you guys. You guys are farther ahead than I am. Spoiler alert that? You spoiled it for Wesley, but it's by Monday, people, have seen it. The rarely

seen standing up sex scene. You don't get those on TV shows and movies anymore. Oh, God. All right. Topic for another day. This podcast was produced by Jesse Lopez and Craig Horlebeck. Craig is at Sundance right now. Could not join us because

he's with Matt Bellany. They're doing a live episode of the town. So check out that. And we will see you next week on the rewatchables and we are a week away from the cold weather tour. So can't wait to see everybody out there. Thanks, Wesley. Thanks, Chris. Bye, everybody. Thanks, Bill.