The Rewatchables - ‘Primal Fear’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

The job of The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan and Sean Fennessey is not to talk, it is to sit there and look innocent. The guys kick off Courtroom Month on ‘The Rewatchables’ by revisiting the 1996 mystery-drama ‘Primal Fear,’ starring Richard Gere, Laura Linney, and Edward Norton. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know, journalists, insiders, all of whom can break down the hottest topics in entertainment to tell you what's really going on. Listen now. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly. The all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment, fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller.

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Sweatpants, Bill is here. Sean Fantasy is here. He hosts the Big Picture. Good for you, Bill. How did you do a Harrison Ford Hall of Fame on the Big Picture when he has like 20 Hall of Famers? Is it just like the baseball Hall of Fame where everybody gets in? It wasn't ideal trying to pick 10 movies.

And many people have told us we failed. So I don't know how we did it. We barely got it done, yeah. Chris Ryan, what are you up to? You still working? Yeah, you know, I mean, not quite summer break yet. We did some James Hardin stuff on the Ringers, Philly. special. A lot of bear stuff on the watch.

We've been covering the bear all over the place. Are we still publishing the watch? Really good show. Wow. Wow. How exciting. Chris and I will be watching the Idol together. The Idol finale. Yeah. We're going to Plato's retreat and we're just going to put it on the big screen there. Our own fireworks are going off on Sunday night. Will you guys be? We're the last two fans of the Idol.

Will you be wearing clothes when you watch together? Sweat pants. My name. You can breathe a little bit. Yeah. My name is Bill Simmons. I have an exciting announcement. This is a theme month. It's courtroom month. Coming up next, primal fear.

I didn't do this. You've got to believe me. I don't care. I'm your attorney. You are a master at putting the victim on trials. A victim in this case. He's my client. I won the death penalty.

He thought he discovered the truth. All the hard evidence is pointing towards him. I don't think he did it. But he never imagined. You're just feeling you're not telling me something. How dangerous the truth could be. Richard Gear, Primal Fear, R-rated R. Special sneak preview Saturday, March 30th, and Seleck Theaters.

All right, guys, July is going to be courtroom month for us. We're doing six movies. All of them have been in a courtroom in some way. The courtroom is involved. Yeah. It's a theme of the movie. You make the courtroom sound like God. Well, to us, moviegoers, we kind of love the courtroom.

And it's been a thing that's Hollywood has moved away from for whatever reason. Primal Fear, the movie we're going to talk about in a second, is right in this amazing courtroom kind of run that we had in the 90s. Sierra, what happened in the courtroom film? They're on TV now. They're on TV. Law and order ruined it? I was watching this and I was like, oh, this is the night of.

Like, this would just be the night of in 2020, you know, if they were making it or something like that. Like, if you were like, we have a really cool idea for a legal thriller, it's got this incredible star-making role. And that was Riz Ahmed and Night of. Yeah. It's just like they would just do this on HBO now. You know me to tell you what happened to it? Yeah.

They did a lot of them and probably too many of them. Like this specific year when Primal Fear was released, I counted seven courtroom dramas or comedies. That's a lot. And you could make the case that they were overweeting the legal profession? No, I think we'll probably talk about why there was such a boom in this kind of storytelling. I think OJ Simpson and Court TV is a huge part of why this stuff blew up in the way that it did in the 1990s. What happened with them?

The Jews? Yeah, yeah, interesting story. You should look into it. 2003 yards. And then did some TV, right? Yeah. Something really kind of funky happened. Oh, I didn't follow that.

Yeah. So because of that, I think, there was an even greater interest in court. Also, I think it's fair to say that true crime, documentary, and podcasting, has kind of obviated a lot of our bloodlust for these kinds of stories. So I have John Grissom. Grisham? John Grisham. Or Marquis Grysum.

son John Grism. Yeah, okay. John Grism? Big Vaughn Grissom is actually Marquis Grissom's son. To me, it starts there with that and presumed innocent. With the Scott Thoreau book, and then Grisham.

Yeah. And those books, and it just unleashed this new modern version of, and all the stuff started to trick into movies, and it starts with presumed innocent, and it just keeps going. We get a few good men. That becomes a monster. JFK, my cousin Vinny,

Then the next year, the firm end pelot can brief come out the same year. The client, just cause, primal fear, time to kill. Devil's Advocate, 97, the Rainmaker, liar, liar. What were some of the ones that didn't make it? They were not successful? You said there were seven and 97. I don't even remember the seven. I mean, I can give you the list.

Primal Fear, the Crucible, which is kind of a courtroom drama when you think of how it's You count sleepers as a courtroom drama? I do. I have sleepers here before and after. Ghosts of Mississippi, Night Falls on. Manhattan, The People versus Larry Flint. It's a pretty long list. So I think it was those books and then OJ.

And then post OJ, it was like, man, legal movie? Yeah. And there's other dynamics to it. It's always a great spot for elite actor. Oh, yeah. There's great star parts. Yeah. Because it's probably, it's theater.

You just get to walk around and monologue. What's a better star part than being either a defense attorney or a prosecutor? Yeah. It might be the ultimate job for a movie star. That's an interesting question. It's the closest thing to actor. But detectives really good, too. It is.

I'm chasing a case, and I've got some demons of my own. But you don't see a lot of lawyers. Like, even Paul Newman in the verdict, who's, like, a raging alcoholic, is still, like, pretty good at being a lawyer. Like, you don't see a lot of lawyers that, like, I don't talk very much. Like, detectives do sometimes. I think one thing that the Tarot and Grisham books did that these movies picked up on is it also made the lawyers detectives.

It was the lawyers in the cases who were solving what had happened in the case. which is unusual as opposed to the cop or the PI. So by like putting those two jobs together, the guy who gets to figure it out and then give the speech to the jury made it like the ultimate star part. Bill, did you ever think about going to law school? Only to be a sports agent.

I had a sports agent run there. Interesting. Before I realized that I had a chance to maybe get paid to read sports columns. Who were your guys? Did you have sports agents? I was just like, you know, I could be a good sports agent.

You were looking at Falc. Yeah, we know what players to target and I could just be in the room. room and it's not too late, man. Well, I haven't ruled it out. Yeah. You know,

we could talk about that later. Did you consider it? No. I didn't have the grades, but I also didn't have the discipline to like read all that stuff. Yeah. We've done a couple courtroom movies

that are ineligible for courtroom month, including the verdict and a few good men, which was I think the first non-sports movie rewatchable we ever did. Yes, it was the first rewatchable we did. Like, called, it was the inaugural rewatchable. The verdict has my favorite courtroom scene ever, which we discussed in detail. His closing.

The jury wants to know, can they go over what they were asking? And Jack Ward and just looks up to the sky. That's though, that's the top for me. There's been some great just moments. And they have some of the same beats, right? Where it's like the lawyer kind of going rogue with the, like, in prime. affair. He has the guy plead the fifth. And the opposing side has to like do the compliment. Bacon does that a few good men too. And they cross-examination. Kendrick, man, that was something.

So they have like, he's got the foes on the other side, but there's always some sort of relationship. Like either they dated or they were drinking buddies or they were softball. So he got that. They always have the scene where the other side is like, he's got a lawyer. Who is it? Yeah. This guy can't have a poor lawyer. No, he got Chris Ryan. C.R. What? So they have that scene.

They have the scene where there's the guy sitting in for the testimony who maybe you don't want to fuck with, but the lawyer doesn't, maybe I'll start pushing the envelope and then the guy starts getting mad, which this movie has. We have the... There's always a moment where the judge is like,

I'm warning you, counselor. I have that. I have the I'm warning you doubt. Or in my chamber. members now. That's another good one. We have, there's always the phone call with our hero where he's like, what? And then we go and it's like a dead body.

We have, our IP, Joey Pinero. The judge, when they go, be careful, counselor. Shredding on very dangerous ground here. Like, I started to think, you know, the writer's strike right now, they're fighting about AI. And one of the reasons of fighting about AI is because you could take 10 of these scripts and just pump out, courtroom drama with all the beats, right? I mean, there are some very recognizable tropes, yeah. I mean, the other one that I love from all these movies is there's always something like

in Primal Fear, it's the South River Project. Yeah, the side thing. There's some complicated investment scheme that doesn't actually matter towards the end of the movie. It's just a B story that they felt like give it some meat. In the firm, it's like the Cayman Island mob, like hiding their money and taxes stuff, but it's really about whether Mitch is going to get away from the firm. and so I like the South Ruther project here where it's like we got to get to the bottom of this

with Mandy from Scarface yeah um they also have the one where the guy goes to see his client he's like I need to see my client alone that's always in there yeah um or the guy coming back because he's mad at the client for some reason it's also like when that happens there's often a moment where the lawyer is like I'm trying to save your life don't you understand that and the defendant's like you're not trying to save shit you know you've got to work with me yeah not against me. There's another one in this movie where the key witness in this case, the psychologist, is

embarrassed by the opposing side and a cross examination. There's always one of those. Or it's like, we thought this was going to help our case and it destroyed our case. Right. Well, and then the hero is either like gear in this movie. Whereas like, ladies man, a little scummy. Or we have like

the up and coming. This is my first case. And that this is going to be the thing. He's going to learn a lesson. Yes. Or it's the Paul Newman in the verdict. Yeah. This is his last Chalachy doesn't care.

He's always just doing plea bargains. Can't wait to get out of. Yeah. There's always a lesson. Even in time to kill where McConaughey plays Jake,

but you know, he's taking this case, but ultimately he learns a lot about how the other side lives. Race and the state that he grew up in and just had to be a better person.

Right. It's funny that they're all morality tales because they're like the scumiest movies ever. This is like such a scummy movie. That's what makes it good. Yeah, it's great. It's really so fun. Be careful, Counsel. Shredding on

dangerous ground here. So then, well, let's talk about gear first. Okay. Our guy. Trying to think how many rewatchables we've had with gear. We've done Gigolo. Jigolo. We did Wesley and I did the Diane Lane Affair movie.

Unfaithful. We did Pretty Women. Did you do Runaway Bride? No. I don't know if we've done that yet. For some, for some reason that, you know, everyone's trying to figure out why we haven't done internal affairs yet. I don't know what we're waiting for. I think Christmas Day. Did you release your Nice and Road Dampi pod yet? Has there ever been a better scene where somebody's riding somebody who's not their husband while on the phone with their husband? It's like camera reveal. Oh, you're riding another guy. Oh, okay. Speaking of scummy movies,

I actually rewatched Internal Affairs like a few months ago. Yeah. Yeah. That movie's going for it. It is immoral. So, Gear, one of the weirdest careers where he's, we talked about a little in the jiggleop pod, he's smoking hot, officer and a gentleman, now he's like, you know, flames are actually coming off of him. And then he goes into one of the great droughts of all time,

which Goldman wrote about when he wrote his essay about Pretty Woman, where they're just trying to get anyone but Richard Gehr, and he's like the 28th choice, a little like how you're going to end up with Robert Covington. and Terrence Man, Marcus Morris for James Hardin. Okay. It's like, wow. And then Terrence Man turns into, you know, a superstar.

Is he or Martin Vale, you think? Yeah, Terrence Man. So Gear has internal affairs and pretty woman. He's suddenly the hottest, you know, lead actor other than maybe Costner and Hanks. And then it's another drought after that. Then he has a, it goes off the rails again for him. I get the impression he's pretty picky and pretty old school movie star and then he's got a lot of thoughts on this character.

Like, I watched a couple of the making ofs for Primal Fear. And it was a lot of interviews with producers, but not gear. And the whole, all their interviews were about, here's what Richard wanted. Here's what Richard wanted. Yeah, I mean, I think actually he and Norton share that

where it sounds like for, he may have learned it from gear. For as coveted as these roles were and for his, like, hotly, you know, is such a hot property. It sounds like they redid a lot of it in both in the rehearsals leaning up to the movie. So after Pretty Woman, he's in,

I mean, this is a pretty rough run. You know what the funny thing in this in this period you're just describing here after Pretty Woman is I remember with final analysis and Summersby, he was like a real big premiere magazine. Like, it's the summer of Summersby. We can't wait. And it was just like, oh, okay.

Like this one kind of like. So that one bombed. He was at Mr. Jones, an intersection in first night. He's basically 0 for 5. The best thing he did was in the, and the band played on, which is one of the best TV movies ever.

He played the choreographer in that, and he's fucking awesome in that movie. Well, Craig was asking us before we started, like, is Richard Gere a good actor? Which is an interesting conversation. Well, you said, I think the truth, which is like he's great at being Richard Gere, which for a certain kind of movie is what a movie needs. I think he's a good movie star. Yes, exactly. But he's not a bad actor. No.

He's not like short-to-neager, you know. Richard Gere pretty much. He's got three variations of Richard Gere. Like, not in Days of Heaven. He's not doing Richard Gere. There's a couple of films where he's doing something different, but for the most part... But he's kind of always a smug, beautiful prick. Yes, agree.

My favorite Richard Gear is the Internal Affairs, Richard Gear, where he just leans in a true villain. He kind of does that in Breathless, too. I prefer Marty to Interfernerals as a character, I guess. The best Richard Gear character ever was Officer and a Gentleman, though. Yeah. And he's not... Mayo! He's very likable in that movie, though.

He is, but he starts out completely unlikable and becomes, you know, we'll do that. one at some point on this podcast. Will you carry me out of the podcast studio when we do Officer and a gentleman? Love will lift us up where we belong. Gear as a person is, you know, complicated, has a lot of thoughts, a lot of political ideas. There's a lot of, there's a reason why his star has fallen in the last 25 years. But I wonder what it's like to be a movie star where you know that your best character is, as Chris said, a smug, beautiful prick.

Like, he must have a self-awareness of the fact that he's only getting scripts. where that's what people want from him? Yeah. That's so strange. Well, this is what I love about this movie, is for as much as this movie obviously hinges on a twist in the performance of Norton, the movie is memorable because it's a movie star willing to get absolutely fucking dunked on at the end of the movie. Yeah.

And most movies and with some hint of redemptive heroic act on the part of the lawyer, or on the part of the movie star hero. and you always I was going to think back to the once upon a time in Hollywood conversation with the Al Pacino and Leonardo Caprio and he's just like, and then you find out you're getting your ass kicked by this younger guy on TV and you're bad guy

and it's like that's this moment for gear it's like you and Rahim but by all accounts gear was the one who was like he has to lose like he has to lose to Aaron Roy whatever you know what I mean like he has to walk out

and the last shot needs to be this guy has been decapitated. So Norton talks about this in one of the interviews. Norton gave a lot of interviews about this movie. I think he did a ton of interviews around Motherless Brooklyn where he did like long pod interviews about including my career. I was more excited about it until he went on 27 other pots

than it felt a little less special. He was on mine as well, Bill, sorry. Right. He was on the Philly special too. But he said the ending, the ideas were as bad that he should punch out the kid. You should realize he's going to nail him.

You should have a recorder on him, be busting them, all these things and all this was like this terror. And Norton said, Richard was the one who really stood firm, almost to the point of refusing to do anything else. He was like, did anybody just see what we did here?

He was kind of pointing at me and he was like, this is how he used me to the best effect. I'm slick. It's a body blow. The last shot of the movie is me standing with my shoulder sagging, punched in the face. That's it.

Oh, I do love that last shot. Yeah. And Norton said, he's like, this is not, I need to come out on top. I need to win my character. And that's why I made the, I think that if this is Tom Cruise,

I think Tom Cruise needs to win, you know? Like he walks out and it turns out he has a recorder. I think Tom Hanks needs to be like, I will give up my career in the law and break attorney-client privilege for this, to like put this guy away, you know? It's not, that's not what gear does here. No, it's interesting, though,

is that most of these movies in this era do have these kind of bummer endings. You know, there are Cruz movies where you feel like, you know, he over, over- But even at the end of the firm, it's like, you know, their family is almost destroyed. And he's still a lawyer. And he beats the mob and he beats the mob.

Except the mob kills him 10 minutes after the movie ends. It's a very, very strong point. It's a dueted scene. David Strathrin is cut to pieces. So you think if gear was in castaway, he ends up like, he has no redemption at the four corners at the end? No, he's standing outside Helen Hunt's house just like, fuck. And then the police comes and arrests him. And then that's the end of the movie.

Ed Norton, this is a famous young actor movie that Damon talked about in my podcast once about how everyone wanted this part. They auditioned 2100 people for it. And it was like one of the parts. It's funny, like that era where you had all these great class of actors. And they were like the school test parts, the scent of a woman part. There was this part. Like there was a couple of them. but this was like the big part.

And Ed Norton says he found out about it from his friend. Connie Britton. Yeah. You're queen. Sean Fenthesies. Queen Elizabeth. I can't imagine knowing Connie Britton at 20 years old. That must have been really exciting.

Did you see the other wrinkle to this? I can't believe he acted. I just would have just been following her around. The reason she told him about primal fear is because one day, like, they were neighbors in New York. And she was like, I have this audition for an indie movie, but I don't know if I'm going to go. And he's like, no, you should go to it. You should go be in a feature. Like, you should go do movies.

And it was Brothers MacMullen. And so she does Brothers McMullen and she gets brother, and she like gets a little bit of juice going. And then down the line, she's going for the more tyranny part in Primal Fear. And she's like, you should really read for this. Yeah, she says, she tells Ed Norton, they're seeing people for this role

and I have the spookiest feeling it's made for you. Almost how Connie Britton was made for Sean and Brothers McMullen as the peak of anything he ever wanted. I'm trying to not say too much, honestly. It's a little painful for me to think about it. When you saw that movie, did your brain explode? Well, you can imagine on Long Island it was treated like we finally had our mean streets.

We were like, thank God, someone has decided to put the Irish-American experience on screen on Long Island. I actually always thought it was a little over-ed. I loved related to this movie. I always loved She's the One. That's a movie that I dug a lot, which is... That's on our rewatch. The same year that this was released

and also stars John Mahoney. And has the all-time smoke show cast that anyone's ever assembled in a movie. That's to talk about that when do the pot. Norton said, comes in, and his audition, he gives the guy the stammer, the stutter, as a way to make him stand out. And apparently...

In case you couldn't tell they needed to name the character, Aaron Stampler. All right, guys. He stammers, we get it. He said the audition tape had, much notoriety that it got him cast in a Woody Allen movie and he got cast in the people versus Larry Flint before the movie Primal Ferry Van Open. This is what Ed Norton says.

People made a big deal out of that. It was sort of like the Nirvana demo tape, my screen tests on it. Elite quote. Yeah. It went around and I was like, why has everybody seen this? Why am I hearing about people seeing it at parties in Hollywood and shit like that? That's what I say. What a fucking flex.

I have about the Hollywood Perspectives pod. You can't really hear it anymore, but it's kind of like the Nirvana demo tape. It's floating around out there. Craig, you should do this with the first fantasy football pilot. People are like, yeah, people in the fantasy football community, they knew about the pilot episode. The demo tape episode. It's a good concept. But this turns into the Nevada demo tape.

This turns into like the Ken Griffey Jr. Upper Deck rookie card of like modern acting. It's like, oh. He's just like. I don't want to get ahead of S.A.S. or any of the other categories. But I mean, very strong possibility that barring maybe like, Orson Wells and Citizen Kane that this is the

great announcement first part for a movie actor. And the thing like you're saying is that he, because of the way things worked back then, he basically comes out of absolute nowhere and there's some really interesting journalism about Norton at the time

where he's like intentionally obscuring his biography and like facts about his life and talking about himself too much so that kind of some mythology starts to build up around him and because of that tape, he winds up getting cast in these movies so that within two years, he's in five of like the most important movies or whatever.

And you're just like, ah, I guess this guy is just like the actor of his generation all of a sudden. That was how I felt when I was a teenager. I was like, this is my guy. This is at this turn in my life in 1996, 14 is when I'm going movie crazy. I'm reading every magazine. I'm like, oh my God, a new Milosh Foreman movie at 14. And this is the person I identified as like my Pacino, my De Niro. He didn't totally become that.

But you could make the case at that time. It was obvious that it seemed like he was going to be. His first four years are incredible. Everyone says, I love you, came out, I guess, before Primal Fear? Is that possible? I don't think so. So IMDB screwed this up. He goes, primal fear.

Everyone says, I love you. The Pupilvers, Larry Flint, American History X, Rounders, Fight Club. Have we done, we did Fight Club Rounders. It's like, John Cazale is the greatest IMDB of all time. This is probably the greatest. to start to an IMDB just from a rewatchable standpoint. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, everyone says, I love you isn't good. No, he's five for six. But he's in a Woody Allen movie. Yeah. Which is crazy.

He went from not acting at all to like, hey, Woody, where do you want me to stand? Right. And he's, I mean, he's nominated for his first role.

Nowadays, he's in two of those movies and they're throwing a suit on him. Like a superhero suit. He put a suit on eventually. He was the Hulk. and that was kind of when things flipped a little bit for him. I think what happened to his career is an interesting conversation. I don't know if it's one weird.

I think he's one person who I think probably is been both propped up. I think what he does for the material that he does, like when he's in 25th hour or whatever, and the things he brings to these movies, it's still amazing on a pretty regular basis. No doubt. But it does sound like if you're going to do, a movie with Edward Norton, you're going to get the full

Edward Norton experience, and he's going to want to be very deeply involved with, like, the writing, the editing, the, whatever. Except he still does, he has a small part in the new S. Anderson movie, and he's awesome. Yeah. He's kind of like a Tennessee Williams kind of character, but he's only in three scenes.

Right. He's like that in Budapest. I mean, he's like, great. I feel like his last 20 years should have been more impactful, and I'm not really positive what happened. Because you go, You go into 2000s. He's keeping the faith, the score, death to Smoochie, Frida, Red Dragon.

But then he's in 25th hour, and he's fucking amazing in that movie. Yeah. I would say that's probably his best performance, right? That or American History X. Or Fight Club. I mean, the next year, he's one of the stars of the Italian job, which is a huge hit. So it's still moving for him. Even a few years later, the illusionist, you know, made by friends of ours, really good movie.

I think it's really more like Down in the Valley and the Painted Vale and these movies where he starts getting more involved as Chris is saying and he starts having a bigger idea as a producer and he wants to be a writer-director at a certain point. He might not have care too. I think one of the things with him is

he had a distinctive face and I wonder like you know something like Nicholson had a distinctive face but maybe it just gets harder to work over and over again he's really good in Birdman. He always he'd pop up He's really good in Born Legacy like he Yeah, he popped.

He pops up every couple years and like, wow, that guy's fucking really good. I forgot. Yeah, he jumps off the screen. He's an amazing actor. He's, but he's like a 70s actor, like you said. He likes to transform a little bit. He likes to take on complicated character parts. Hollywood's not really as welcoming towards those kinds of roles.

There's a reason he only basically works now with, like, Wes Anderson, Ina Ritu. Like, he works with a very short list of people that he feels comfortable with. He did get nominated like seven years ago for an Oscar. It's not like he hasn't done anything. Would you rather have Matt Damon's career or Ed Norton's career? I would rather have Ed Norton's because I think Ed Norton is like, considered a, like, a greater actor. But it's interesting to consider the two of them.

Matt Damon had the benefit of having a franchise and born that basically he could always return to for the course of a decade. Matt Damon's been way more successful. And, yeah, I mean, Matt Damon's been much more successful. What's interesting about the later part at Norton's career is he never had like that he's against Leo and the departed kind of role. He's come close a couple times. Like Birdman, it felt like Birdman was going to be the absolute biggest movement.

And we were doing Great on that year. It just felt like that was going to win every Oscar and be the biggest movie the year. And then something kind of flipped with it where it didn't do quite as well as everybody thought it was going to do. Keaton didn't win best actor. It felt like it was going to be like Silence of the Lambs winning over there. That's true. Didn't totally get there. But it won best picture, made $100 million.

The critics loved it. And he was nominated. You know, although that whole cast was nominated. Weirdly not that rewatchable. I was not a huge fan at the time. Yeah. It's like a fun one-time experience. I wouldn't watch it like.

It's a cool parlor trick. Seven, eight times. It's so funny, though, when you look back, he plays Aaron slash Roy. He plays Derek and American History X. He plays Wormon Rounders. And he plays the Fight Club guy. These are four, like, really distinct, different characters.

They're iconic. And we're still talking about those first four roles today. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, there's a fucking Rounders poster in the bear. Like, it's like he is, he, in sort of like. There's not just a Rounders poster. They take the closing credit song for season two and got it back on Spotify.

So kudos to those fucking guys. That's a great song. That was the most excited text message I've gotten from you in 2020. I thought that song was gone. I thought you were to be more far up for Bruce Hornsby, to be honest. That's the song that opens the season. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. We haven't really talked about the bear.

We haven't. And I don't feel like I'm on your bear text. It's like you and Greenwald and somebody else. Whatever. wait hold on i don't i'm not sure if we should move on from that whatever man it's got some cool bear text going on these are with the two premier tv podcasters of their era here

you know and there's a little bit of a cold war going on i didn't do anything i actually don't i don't have a bear text bill if it was if we had a bear text you'd be on it all right norton gets nominated i don't want roy to come out you know shut the fuck up Noron gets nominated for this movie

along with James Woods and Ghost Mississippi. Yeah. Byron de LaBeckwith. That was your favorite performance in the year, right? Armin Mueller Star and Shine. Armin Mueller Starr? Armine Mueller Star. Yeah. Stahl. We're getting an R.

Armine Mueller Stahl. Stahl. Yeah. He played Jeffrey Rush's Father in Shine. Shine. Get that movie the fuck out of here. Macy and Fargo. I'm signing off on that. And then Cuba Gooding Jr. wins for Jerry McGuire, which I'm okay with all these years later.

I love Rod Tidwell. Rod Tidwell was an amazing character. Great performance. Awesome Oscar. So I'm okay with it. I thought I'd be madder when I, because I think Norton's amazing in this movie. I thought the same thing. When I cracked it open, I was like, I can't wait to see this bullshit.

And I was like, oh, yeah, these are largely pretty good, you know. I think we talked about it on the McGuire pot. You can make a case Rod Tidwell is the greatest sports movie character of all time. He's in the running. The problem with that the whole situation is that Jeffrey Rush wins for Shine and that's Cruz's Oscar.

Like that's a that's an anomalous moment. That's why I hate Shine. That's why we don't acknowledge it in the rewatchables. Fuck off, Shine. This movie has a ridiculous cast including Laura Linney, Andre Brower.

Francis McDormon. Might have won a couple Oscars later in her career. This year. Yes. She's in Farron. She's in Fargo. And she's just like a shrink in this movie. Mori Tierney.

Love Moratirney. Went on a date with her sister once. What? Terry O'Quinn. Wait a second. How to go? Rob Mahoney. Oh, no, that's John Mahoney.

You're just blowing past every good moment here. You're like... Alphrey Woodward. Did you go on a date with Alphrey Woodward's sister, too? Where are we getting into... That would have been great. I would have loved that. I went on one date and I took her to the Celtics game.

And... Of course. I mean, this is incredible. At halftime, she got up, she thought the game was over, and I was like, this probably's not going to make it. She's very cool, though. Was it Deirdre? Yeah, Deirdre Tarney.

I went on one date with her. Did she come into the bar or something? Like, how'd you meet her? Can't remember. Okay. Don't really remember a lot from the 90s. What could have been? You could have been on the set of news radio.

When was this? Was she like, my sister, Mora, is going to be in this private film movie? Moore was already famous at that point. Oh, interesting. $30 million budget made $102 million. Primal fear. Pretty sick. That's how we used to roll.

Used to be a great country. Our guy, Raj, 3.5 stars. Way to go, fucking Ebert. He's killing it. This plot is as good as crime procedures get, but the movie is really better than its plot because of the three-dimensional characters. He loves plot and three-dimensional characters.

So that review is really interesting because he throws all this praise on gear, but it's a real relic of newspaper writing because he's trying really hard to not give way. The end in the movie. How good Norton is and what the ending is in his review. And it's like, you know, it's service journalism. It's also, it's kind of, this was

a huge word of mouth movie. Because when you just see the, like, marketing materials and the post, first of all, the poster's just gear standing alone. The marketing materials, I think, largely, like, obscure a lot, well, especially the twist at the end. But it was like, it was,

I remember this being like, you've got to go see this kid in this movie kind of thing. Here's the tagline of the movie is, sooner or later, a man who wears two faces forgets which one is real. But that's on the poster with gear. And you think that that's about gear. Yeah, it's about him being shallow. And by the way, it is about him. It is about it. Because he's, that's one of the cool things about this movie is both people are two personalities. Yeah. I don't really know which person. Gear kind of settles into the second personality by the

end, but the first personality is the fucking asshole talking the reporter and arrogant guy who's banging the lawyer and just is just not a good guy. I think he's John Mahoney puts it, ballinger. Ballinger. Yeah, last time bawling was used in a movie, I think. You have a little bit of like older man from Chicago energy. Pick up your little handbag. Destroy the tape.

You cock sucker. Let's take a break. And we'll do the categories. This episode is brought to you by Two Good and Company coffee creamers. How'd you take your coffee, piping hot, ice, strong, frothy. But if you love rich, creamy goodness and delicious flavor in every sip, try two good and company creamers. They're made with farm fresh cream and real milk.

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Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-997-9 or visit Zepbound. com. Most rewatchable scene. I think the opening credits into the big banquet scene is really good. Yeah, great scene setter. And Adorns in the boys' choir,

which, you know, they kind of stick that in. We have Laura Linney hawking on her first cigarette. We have, it was a one-night stand, Marty. It just lasted six months. Great line. Good writing. Come on, let's go find a bar. I can still smoking.

Thanks for the invite. But I don't like one-night stands all that much. It is my great honor. We saw each other for months. It was a one-night stand, Marty. It just lasted six months. Everything. It just sets up everything.

He's walking around like a smuggled little asshole. He thinks she's going to bring her home that night. And he's like, I'm king of the city. I can stroll into this benefit late. I can shake hands with the monstein year. I'm standing in front of a table. Yeah. The post-murder scene, Chase, is pretty solid.

It's cool. Some helicopter shots here. this movie's not afraid to dive in the helicopter shots. It's not. Every 20 minutes, it's like, hey, let's go above again.

It's very unfussy and unsophisticated in a good way. And, like, hoblet, the directors just made a lot of TV. NYPD Blue history. A lot of saying elsewhere. And just like...

That scene feels NYPD Blueish. It does. The chase in particular of the apprehending the suspect thing where it's like almost like documentary style, like a helicopter shot overhead. I don't know.

It's like a very simple style filmmaking. It's perfect for movies like this. I love, I was going to have this later, I'll do it now. I love when there's a chasing in the train and somebody has to run in front of the train. And then the cops are looking under the train. And it just, I always think like this is, you could get away this way. Like what he, the move is to hop on the train from the other side.

Being completely covered in the archbishop's blood is a, it's tough. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough. But he should have jumped on the train. It was going pretty fast. Make a move. but did Aaron Did he want to get caught?

Did he want to get caught Is really the question. Yeah, good point. I just wrote down I don't have any of these as a rewatchable scene but I really like the gear versus lini scenes

I just think they're Yeah, there's a couple of like basically recurring scenes Yeah It's like the McDormand Norton interviews They get sprinkled throughout All that stuff's good

I don't know And all the liny scenes Can I throw another one Yeah That's a courtroom movie's trope that I love is the main lawyer briefing his two underlings on like the case and they're like, you gotta be kidding me.

How are we gonna win this? He's like, we're gonna win, you know? So when he's like, he's telling Tommy and Naomi about he's covered in his blood, like he's got the archbishops ring in his pocket and he goes, I didn't say that. I said he had the archbishops ring in his pocket. You know, like he's like, he stole the archbishop's ring. He's like, I didn't say that.

I said he had it in his pocket. You know, like, you're right. The briefing of the case is a great trope. Everybody's writing shit down on legal paths. But doesn't that remind you a little bit of being called into Bill's office? And he's like, I got an idea. We're bringing in Brian Barrett off the pike. And we're like, what?

You're going to do what? A Boston pod? And Jeff's like, we can't make these numbers work. I do have, there's a bunch of McDormon, Aaron scenes, but I do like when she rattles them. Because I like what Norton does, that face he makes for a split second. Where it's like, oh, what's going on here? Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?

Yeah. I just don't. Just don't want to talk about it right now. Why not? Are you all right? No, my head hurts. Okay, I'm sorry. Let me just face this.

Hey, you know what I can do with this thing? Well, how the fuck should I know? Jesus, cool. I wrote down, they find the sex tape. So related to that, I think one of my favorite scenes in the movie is when, when he goes to meet gear at the bar late at night. Yeah, and they have that confrontation, which is like you said, it's part of this, like, three or four sequences.

It's just the two of them talking. They're pre-negotiating. That's the best one of all the scenes. She's so good in that scene. She's really, I mean, this is like a big announcement for her. She'd been in other movies, but you could see she was going to be around for a long time after a couple of those scenes.

Well, you know what scene put her on the map. Shortcuts. My son is better at this than anything you've ever been at in your whole life. That's true. She was a teacher. Aaron turns into Roy. Not nothing. It's like, what's going on here?

I like Brower on the stand. Just, where do your Andre Brower thoughts? Like, do you ever see him in anything and be like, oh, no, he's in this movie? No, he's always... He's batting a thousand. Pushing the, like, he's almost always going to, like, eat some other person's lunch. Like, it's real close. I love that guy.

In this movie where, like, when he's like, fuck, Marty, you want my job? Like, it's like, oh, shit. Like, Andre Brower, Richard Gear, going head to head. That's one of those when they talk about all the kind of, racism and all the weird shit that was going on in the 80s and 90s was like, that's a guy you just point to him, be like, that guy should have had a bigger career.

He should have been more famous. I mean, he is like... I get it. He's... On homicide, he is... I get it. He's homicide guy. One of the great acting performances. When did we have this conversation where we were like, Pembleton is up there

with all of the like bad men of the 2000s in TV shows? Like one of the most raiding TV characters. You could not hear to take your eyes off him. The homicide interrogation scene, watch that. That's like, it's one of my dad's all-time favorite.

When did we have, we did have this conversation, right? Once before we were like, how was this guy not one of the actors in the generation? There's a bunch of those dudes from that. That's why even somebody like in this generation, Courtney Vance was like that for a while too. I mean,

he kind of wound up. Oh, yeah. Like Idrisalba, who I think has had a really good career and gotten a lot of chances, I think if he comes along 20 years earlier, he's just kind of bouncing around because that's what happened back then.

Yeah. Like even, I was going to talk about this later, but, you know, one of the courtroom tropes is the judge is always black, like, almost always. It's like 85, 90% of the time because that was a way to kind of shove some sort of black actor into the cast so you could have more diversity. And it's embarrassing.

Like, nowadays, like either Laura Lenny and John Mahoney or gear, one of those parts isn't a white person. Like, they just would have been more thoughtful about it. Yeah, yeah. I think the... Although we did get Manny from Scarface, which was great. Alfred Woodard is also great in this movie, though. She is.

I definitely wouldn't trade her for anybody. But the Brower thing is weird because it feels like he should have been an Academy Award nominated actor. But he was on Homicide for like eight years. And then he was on Brooklyn 9-9 for like five years. So ultimately, he had a huge career. Like he had a really big successful career for an actor. He did.

But I think he was first in glory. Yeah. So it's like if you look at the through glory, so it's like, Denzel goes up like this in glory. Even Morgan Freeman gets more famous after glory. And he doesn't ever, he doesn't quite get to where they went. I would have liked to have seen him in more stuff like how Yafakota was used in Midnight Run. Where you're almost using what people's expectations and what he's going to be.

Yeah, but that's what point nine-nine is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that took. Yeah. He was like in his 60s.

Yeah. I like that guy. Chris's guy Mahoney on the stand. You little cock sucker. He owed you big time, John. you must have been really pissed off when he pulled out of South River what happened

he just finally said I can't take it anymore he said no you and your investors 60 million reasons to kill him you little cock sucker that's it witness dismissed courts and recess veal in my chambers in it

that's for joy pinier you little shithead start looking for a job start looking for a job that's another that's another Terry O' Quinn yeah um

But that whole gear using Mani's death to just be like, I'm going rogue at Mahoney. Yeah, I love that. That's great. Can I also throw another Mahoney moment in? Yeah. Shaughnessy eating Chinese food

and describing how the city works. How much did you lose when he pulled the plug from South River, John? Let me tell you something. It's a mistake to stick you down in the eyes of the most powerful people in the city. It's not their eyes I'm aiming for.

But just any, Any major municipal meeting and taking place in a Chinese restaurant? Yeah, I love it. He's eating the little egg noodle cooking. Has that guy ever actually been a nice guy in a movie? Mahoney? No, no, no.

Not Mahoney. I'm saying that character, the guy who knows the whole city. The state's attorney who runs everything. Oh, there's 100% chance this guy's a huge scumbag. He's never like, hey, man, I got to wrap this up. I'm coaching a special Olympics team at two hours.

And then afterwards, I'm going to go rehab a building. so I'll see on Monday. Yeah. It's kind of the inverse of the lawyer is a great part for a movie star. Like, high-end politician is always kind of a scumbag. It's good. It's a little, I have thoughts of Mahoney later. Aaron slash Roy in the stand.

The choke scene. I would stab him 78 times with a butcher knife. I would chop off his fingers. I would slash his throat open. I would carve numbers into his chest. I would gouge out his eyes. I swear to God. but that's me.

No further questions, Your Honor. Where the hell do you think you're going? Excuse me? Hey, you look at me when I'm talking to you, you bitch. Mrs. Stampler. Fuck you, ladies. Come in here. That's really good.

Yeah. You know it's coming. I think that it happens. I have some questions about Linney's mind state during that cross-examination. So I had that in what stage the worst when she's like, I would kill him. Yeah. I would rip his eyes out. It's like, would you?

Like, are you going to say that in a crowd of courtroom? It's a little weird. She lost the plot a little bit. Yeah. Wasn't great. Yeah. I like the fact that that, it's okay. There's, I think, pretty much at, like, the final courtroom scene starts at 30 minutes left.

And there's not a dull second for the last 30 minutes of this movie. No. Yeah. I think the last 40 minutes of this movie just lights out. It's going to say that it takes a while to get into the courtroom. Whatever it is. Yeah. When he puts Aaron on the stand and he's, like, covering the microphone.

And he's like, you little bitch, whatever he says to him. And then like he gets and then he sets Linney up to do it. And then last one, which is the winner is the big reveal. Good for you, Marty. What did you just say? What? You told me you don't remember. You black out.

So how do you know about her neck? Well, good for you. Marty. I was going to let it go. You was looking so happy just now. I was thinking, But to tell you the truth, I'm glad you figured it. Because I have been dying to tell you.

I just didn't know who you'd want to hear it from, you know? Aaron or Roy or Aaron. Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, sort of a client, attorney privilege type of a secret, you know what I mean? It don't matter who you hear it from. It's the same story. There never was an Aaron, counselor. It was like we were dancing, Mertie. We're a great team.

So good. You cannot underestimate what a mind-blower it was when you saw the movie. Because there's a critical scene right before that scene, which is they go in Alfred Wardwich Chambers and they decide what the fate of the trial is going to be. She's going to throw the case out. He's going to get reprimanded to the mental institution. He has that moment where he hugs her from behind. Yeah.

And he wants to dance with her. And then the movie kind of like depressurizes. And you're like, okay. Aaron and Roy, he has split personality disorder. Like maybe there'll be one more conclusive moment where he says goodbye to Aaron or whatever. There was, for me at least, as a teenager, there was no level of expectation that there was going to be revelation. There's also a long, it's a weird, I remember watching it early on and being like there's this weird beat as he's leaving the cell where you're like, okay, now the music should start and he should walk out and somebody like, maybe that reporter walks up to him and be like, what did you learn, Mr. Vale? or something like that.

And I'm like, wow, this is going on for like five extra seconds. When's the music going to come in? And then he's like, oh, yeah, tell Janet, like, I'm sorry about the neck. And he stops, you know, and it's like, oh, shit. And when he stops, you're like, oh, fuck. This is so great. This was kind of the best era for these, uh, oh, my God, twist. Oh, my God, twist.

It starts with crying game. Then usual suspects. Yeah. Up until the six cents. Yeah, all the way through six cents and Blair Witch. Yeah. But when we could still keep. secrets. Although I did ruin usual suspects for Jack. I'm still really proud of that. He's been a dick. He deserved it. Wow.

Yeah, this is the big thing. And also, like, a great Norton performance in that scene. Brilliant. This is really, really great. Like, I was thinking of other actors during this era and we'll talk about the casting what ifs. But I think this is the right guy for this spot. Definitely. What's age the best? Horny evil priests. I mean, it's definitely in the zeitgeist now. That's sure. Yeah. I just want to say a uncomfortable Sierra could get. How about priest's sex scandal? Have I missed some news stories or what's going on? Pre-sex scandal cover-ups. They were ahead of their time, the probable fear, like five years ahead.

I like when the Cardinal, when he's at the banquet, and it's about the scenes about Denny, he goes, I haven't seen this many lawyers gathered in one place since confession this morning. And there's like this. Nothing like some good archbishop humor. This is great. I could have gone three more minutes

with the Cardinal crack in one-liners. Mani from Scarface. Just always love this guy. What's your relationship with Manny? I mean, from Scarface or that actor, Stephen Bauer? Just the actor. Oh, he's just a great character actor. You know, I love him.

Thiefa Hearts. Mm-hmm. Fucking lights out. Yeah. Mid-80s movie. Lights out. I love the line in this movie where he's just like, I have my first kiss in that building.

I also got her pregnant. Right? I like a part where, you know, gear goes into the bar and he hears the song that he likes, and then on the way out after he's, told Panera what the deal is going to be. He gives him the CD and he's like, see this? That song you like, fourth cut.

And then he's listening to it that night. He's unhinged and running scared. Yes. He never really... Never really totally made it. Went out. He was a De Palma guy. He's in a bunch of De Palma movies.

I have some questions because it is the 80s where he just got to like wonder what's going on. Is Stephen Bauer actually like a Latin guy? I believe so. Yeah, Cuban. He's Cuban. I love Stephen Bauer. however, he's my guy. He's like too handsome to be

the eighth lead, but not handsome enough to be gear. You know, like he's in a middle ground. Like, quite often I just sit on the deck and think about how Miami Vice should have gone

like for four more years. You know, they just kept all the five cast members together. They never innovated. They never added nothing. Have you ever show up on Vice? He should have just been on Vice for like, I wish I could just go in a time

machine and just be like, here are my ideas. Here's how we can keep this going. He should have been like this kind of like cop slash dirty on the dirty side. And it should have been the whole season of them trying to figure out who's inside. He just should have been on that show.

You would have wanted Miami Vice. What if I told you like Vice could have gone for five more seasons, but they have to replace Crockett like they did with Caruso? No, you keep Crocket in Tubbs. You replace everyone else around them. The key is that everyone else around them. That's what Cheers figured out. That's what Cheers was on 11 years. They kept adding characters.

He eventually showed up on Breaking Bad and Saul. Bauer. He was good, Eladio. Laura Linney and Mora Tierney. Yes. A lot of history with these two at this point. I mean, this basically jumpstarts of three-decade Laura Linney career. Mora Tierney's, you know, she's in Lara Lara the next year.

She had a really good career. Then peaks in the affair. One of the craziest cable shows of all time. Tierney was on Europe for a while, right? Oh, yeah. A while. She's good in ER, too. After News Radio.

I think the first time I saw Laura Linney was in Congo. I see Congo, 1995. Terrible film. I loved it. Great. New England legend. Yeah. Every guy in the East Coast.

Kind of got a lot of her dap from Ozark the last couple years. That's true. Did you do the hoblet research where he was like, this is my gal? I need a stage actress for this part. Lord Lenny. I was talking about tyranny. Oh, yeah. Linney.

Yeah. Well, she, what happens to her after this? When is the, when is, uh, you can count. You can count on me. That's four years later? Yeah. That's when that happens. I was like Ruffalo's big debut.

Well, she was in Truman Show like the next year. And she plays Carrie's wife in Truman Show. She's really good in Truman Show. You can count on me as like this person is going to be in our lives now. In fact, I would say you can count on me as not altogether dissimilar from like Ruffalo's announcement. And you can count on me as not on like Primal Fear. Right. I got to come up with a theme month where it makes sense to do you can count on me.

Linney month. Or like. Yeah. fucked up sibling months. Yeah, emotionally destroyed month. Kenneth Lonergan Month. You could do Manchester by the sea. Lonergan Month.

Oh, my God. Marguerette? Should we do Marguerite? Sponsored by Better Hope. The, so Damon said he chased the world desperately. And this is, I have this as a what's age the best.

After he didn't get this part, that's what led to him in Affleck writing Goodwill Hunting. Probably you're creating Goodwill Hunting. Although, like, because Damon and Norton and, And to their credit, like, Affleck, all these guys have gotten really good at being like, hey, this was 20, 30 years ago. So, like, let's talk about, like, who was up for one. And Norton has this whole thing with Sam, who did the Isbell Doc, where he talked about he was up for Rainmaker.

He met with Coppola. Damon was also up for Rainmaker. Damon, like, I don't remember exactly the chronology. But essentially, like, Coppola was like, you know, it seems like you're kind of into this, but it also seems like you really want to do American History Act. you should make American History X. And so Norton did that, and Damon got Rainmaker. There's a lot of pave the way for this guy to do. But it's like if Norton gets Rainmaker,

does he make American History X? You know, like... It's not quite on the level of Aaron Sampler, but Damon this year does get one of those parts, because this is the Cartoon-Ur-R-Dier-year, too, where he has that critical scene. The heroin scene, yeah. Or he's recovering.

I've seen C.R. lost 40 pounds to get a job at Grantline. I know. He was a total method actor. He wanted us to be... You look great. He thought it was a... hipster sight, so he just wanted to lose a ton of weight, see if it would work. What else do you have for what stage is the best?

I have a couple of things. One is, there's one last courtroom trope that I wanted to shout out. I'm going to call this pulling an Airman O'Malley in a few good men where he's like, Airman O'Malley's in the court audience. And then everybody who's on the other side is like, why the fuck is this guy here? Yeah. And it's when Marty has the victim of the Archbishop sexual abuse who had filed the complaint against Shaughnessy and

Shawnessy's like looking over at him and he's like why is this guy here? You know, this is like a surprise witness. I also just think the Nathaniel Hawthorne quote really works for multiple characters in this and the last shot. One of all-time last shots. There's a good story

that I liked that aged well, which is that Gear felt like the script is really missing something. It's an adaptation of a novel by William Deal. And I think it was Steve Shagan who had originally adapted it. And Anne Beerman. And Gears like, we need Anne Biederman on this movie. And she had just written three or four episodes of NYPD Blue.

And then she goes on to create Southland, which is an amazing show that was on TNT for a long time. And then she also did Ray Donovan. That was like the last show that she created. And she's got on to be like a big TV writer and producer. But you can tell that she is someone who, like her script clicks the movie into place. Yeah. So identifying her kind of before she blows up. You have any of what stage your best?

That was my one. I'm moving on then. The Kid Cuddy Pursuit Happiness Word for Best Needle Drop. I don't have one. There's no music of it. The Stephen Bauer, the track that he's like, track for.

Yeah, okay. That song, I think, went on to become the theme song to Southland. There you go. Big Cohoon Burger Word, best use of food and drink, the Chinese food. Yeah.

Yeah. Dan of Thees, Benihana, where it's seen, still in location. This is easy. Barleycorn's. The bar grill that they go to, like, four times in this movie. And it's like,

when did we stop as a country where you were, Like it's lunch. I'm going to have a cheeseburger and a martini for lunch. I love the ease with which she says it on the phone. She's like, barley corns, 10 minutes, you know, like she wants him there immediately. Barley corn is a real place? I don't know.

I should have looked at. Barley corns in Chicago? Great shot, Gordor Award, most cinematic shot. Train tracks? Last shot. Last shot? Yeah. Yeah, last shot.

I like also the overhead shot of Norton when he's sleeping in bed and there's like cross-cutting. You know, all the characters talking about him. It was real, but it's now closed. Okay. Oh, okay. Vincent Chase Award, are we sure this character was actually good at his job?

Shaughnessy, what's going on? Not a very good conspiratorial politician. Your name's just on LLC? It's like, what the fuck are you doing? Get into the Cayman's start getting some shell corpse going. How does he not know

Janet Venable is a little bit of a rogue agent here and that she wouldn't follow orders on running this case? Yeah, it's one of those weird, like, we've selected you because you used to be with this guy, so obviously, like, it'll just be like,

you'll steamroll them. It's like, no. The Malley Rubin Award. Did this movie Need a Better Sex Scene? I could have gone for a war on a year. Gere and Lennie could have taken a bath together or something. Jesus. I'm going to shower.

What do you mean? A sauna. Janet, you seem so dirty. Janet. Come on. Let's take a bath. Yeah. Did you get a chance to watch the homemade porno?

I guess that could have happened with those, too. That is a sex scene, the homemade porno that we see. Yeah. We could use a better one. that's a disturbing sex scene I don't like the cardinal narrating now from behind

it's a fucking disturbing the butch's girlfriend award weak link of the film I don't know if you guys noticed this but the reporters in like four scenes and he's a fucking zero Conerman is that his name?

He's just a zero yeah it's almost he's like basically a propped up corpse what also doesn't make any sense I don't understand it He is... Redge Rogers. Like, Marty keeps having him around

after the cover story has come out. And he's just like, Connorman, meet me at the bar. Every part of him's terrible. Like, first of all, like, if we're recasting that, who would you want as the reporter? Like, would it be somebody who seems a little... No, but would it be somebody

who seems a little, like, sneakier? Dana Wheeler Nicholson. Is it a chance? Yeah, right. Chis to put in a diverse character. Like, anything, it's just like, here's this generic, monosyllabic white guy who has no charisma and personality at all.

He's going to be in five scenes. You want like a David Pamer, Bouchemey kind of a person. Boucheming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin Powell, we were going to do? Pollock, I mean. Yeah, yeah. What's age the worst?

We mentioned Janet saying during the errand cross-examination that she would have killed the priest, she would have cut his eyes out. It's like, what's going on, Janet? Yeah, that jumped out to me. Were you watching it this time? I was like, this is a little much in a cross-examination. So when John Mahoney's a bad guy,

I just, my feelings get hurt. Do you consider him a bad guy and say anything? Yeah, kind of. Definitely. And that one is a more understandable bad guy. He's bilking elderly people out of their fortunes. Yeah. He's trying to give Diane the life you wants.

I don't know. I just like John Mahoney. I don't like what he's a bad guy. Yeah. I wish they'd gone with like more of a bad guy, bad guy. He's pretty convincing in this part. No, I know he is. He's really good.

I don't like seeing John Mahoney go heel. He's, well, he was kind of like a full-time healing our lives if you were a fan of Frazier Crane true. You know, like he was kind of the bane of Frazier's existence. Are you a big Fraser guy? I love Frazier. You guys want to watch Frazier? I never really liked it. What the fuck?

Yeah, I didn't really watch it. Oh my God. Guys, I never really liked it. This was John Mahoney's Apex Mountain. I get it. Was being in this movie while Frazier was at the top of the ratings. I never really liked the Kelsey Graham or David Hyde Pierce. Oh my God. The Emmys all fucking jerk-s circling about how great they were together.

That was a classic McBride movie. Is this like, I don't like Troy from reality bites? Like these high-floating assholes thing? Fraser Crane, you deprecise tape. That's why you cruised right by the Nathaniel Hawthorne quote. You didn't want to hear about that. Fraser Crane was the original podcaster. What are you talking about?

He was crushing with the microphone. I just never really watched it. That's disappointing. I'm sorry. Any other words, age the worst? I think Sean is he reminding Janet that she was bawling Marty is an HR violation. That's true. And I'm also glad that we left bawling.

in 1996. Yeah. Are you? This run through the movie too. If you watch, so like he, they get that kid Alex, John Cita, right? And they're like,

he's like, yeah, the archbishop calls it purging the devil. And then Marty goes back to the crime scene and finds the exact videotape because it says sermon purging the devil.

But you have to like freeze frame to tell why Marty picks that tape. So otherwise, it's just like, so Marty just, goes back to the crime scene, and this guy's got homemade porn in his house, and Marty picks the exact right tape, and then a nose to fast forward. So it's a little bit of a...

I had that in the Ron Burgundy Flood Award, Best Time for a P-break. The movie kind of gets a little sloggy. Yeah. No, that gets a little sloggy during that stretch. This movie's in two hours and ten minutes. It was actually, it was originally like three plus and they cut it down. I feel like we could have banged this out in two hours. I agree.

There's some slog. The last 45 is great. was there a better title for this movie Prime of Fear is good what if they just called a butcher boy well there was a movie right around this time was it butcher boy in the 90s or was it early 2000 like a Ken Loach movie it's like Patrick McCabe novel

it's like an Irish movie anyway Mike Lee right Neil Jordan Neil Jordan Neil Jordan 98 97 97 no that's Prime Affair came out 96 I don't think Prime Fear is the

best title for the movie. I think there was a movie called The Band with Two Faces that that would have been an interesting. Yeah, that's right. Kind of, yeah. Best quote, you're worse than the thugs you represent. I was like when stuff like that that gets thrown a movie. Let's take a break and then a hottest take. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee. It earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash

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Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. All right, Stephen A. Smith-Hittus take a word. Do you have one cigar? Marty's whole, like, I just, I'm not sure Marty's a great lawyer. Like, in the opening gambit of defending Aaron is like there was a third man.

and it's like that he's like gets all mad at Tommy and Naomi he's like I'm running a third man defense and I don't have a third man it's like you fucking made the third man up man who made that up buddy yeah well furthermore like let's unpack why Marty wants to take the case

it's a high profile case right yeah the the killing of a significant figure in the community but it's an open and shut case to anybody who knows anything about the case right so there is no case right it's a the district attorney thinks that he's just going to

plead no contest so Like, what does he have to gain from that? It's strange. And then it's like, is he going for this because he sees something in Aaron in the beginning where he's like, I can actually help this person. I think halfway through you start to buy into that idea. But at the very beginning, it's unclear. I never really understood that.

I have a somewhat related one, which is, when you think about Norton's performance, is his work as Aaron Stampler, who is his creation, Roy is the real Stampler? purposefully, actually not that great and a little hammy. So I had a thing, and I also, I was going to mention this in what's age the best, actually, I forgot. Which is that I was, I went back and watched it this time specifically for clues, like to see if there's any other times where there's a tell. Right. And the only time I could really find is when Tommy goes to Aaron slash Roy's room, he's got Absalom Absalom by William Faulkner on his nightstand. and that doesn't seem like a book

Aaron would be able to really get through because I can't get through it, you know? Right. And that was like the only like because you know if you watch Fight Club you can see all these little things where it's like oh wait a second. But I don't know. Like I don't know. Do you think Aaron is supposed to be so duh, duh, duh, because like he basically makes fun of Aaron

in that first interrogation. Right. And Roy obviously at the end of the movie is like, I've been waiting for you to figure out what I've been doing here and he's almost disappointed up until the point when Marty doesn't realize it. But also, even as an. actor, the Aaron character when you know what's happened and you watch the movie again is like, it's, it doesn't totally work. You're like, is there something wrong with this kid?

What's really going on here? And then also, the secondary question related to that is, in his life, was, did Aaron look, talk and act like Roy all the time? I have, this is a major, I had that as an answerable question. Unanswerable as well. Well, it's just do it now. Well, it's like, what would they have had any of the other altar boys to be like, no, actually, this guy. I talked like... Right, and he's a rash southern guy. In the context of Savior House and all that, like he was Aaron the whole time,

what I don't understand is like, what was Roy's plan? Did he like come from Kentucky, go to Chicago with the hope of being picked up by the Archbishop and becoming a serial killer? Or like, at what point does he start to think of this whole thing? Right. And where Linda and Rushmore

his first killings or has he killed before? Is he a serial? killer or is he an abused person lashing out? And what are we trying to say about altar boys? No. I mean, that's come to the four. Here's my hottest take. I just don't say Aaron Rogers is going to be good on the Jets this year.

Did you see the stats? What the fuck is wrong with you? You see the deep stats? What the fuck are you talking about? I have nothing right now. Here's my take. The Mets just wasted $450 million this season. Just let me have this for a month.

The deep stats are pretty unencouraging. Sharp had a lot of stuff out. He had an injury. I get it. On his hand. Because guys who were that old, they tend to, like, really regenerate faster, you know. Let's circle back to this when Joel Embed is down on the ground in about six months. For the next.

On the next. My hottest take a word. My mom's favorite actor is Richard Gear. We know. So I've spent a lot of time. Richard Gear just playing on a TV in my house. Is it Richard Gear in the way that Harrison Ford is Mallory Rubin's favorite actor, that she, just wants to like nail him to the wall?

Or is it like he's a great performer and he should have been Oscar nominated? Did you tell your mom we were doing this? All time. Most just in love of the Richard Gear. And it's funny like his contemporaries in the 80s and 90s, it's, you know, it's Hank's, it's Michael Keaton. Jeff Bridges. Jeff Bridges is a good one.

And then as we get into the 90s. Yeah, he's in all those things. But it's funny to think if you had played, if you just move guys around, like what's Richard Gears Field of Dreams? if he's in the Costa part. Like, that's where the Richard Gear case kind of falls apart, where there's just parts. Costner, I think, could have been in this movie as the lead guy.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But on positive, Richard Gear couldn't have been, like, Maverick and Top Gun? Well, but he's an officer or gentleman. You don't think so? I don't think he could have been Maverick and Top Gun. Okay, that's one of the singular performances.

I don't think he could have been Ray Kinsella in Field of Dreams. And could he have been the dad and sleep a son? Seattle? Well, I think the problem is what your mom thinks of Richard Gear, which is like he's a smoke show. So could he be this bumbling, like, kind of like, yeah, kind of down and out guy. It's hard. Could he have been the Tom Hanks row in Philadelphia?

Yes. You think he would have shaped his head? Well, you know what I actually would have said? I don't think he has enough native empathy. He certainly could do the Denzel part. For sure. Yeah. He would nail that.

that's an interesting question I feel like it's possible that he never really got a chance to do something like that So the hottest take part of this was my mom would argue He just didn't get the right parts And he was in King David

And all these things Yeah yeah But I find I think there's a richer gear aspect to Richard gear That overpowers Seeing him in weird roles That aren't Richard gear type rules

Where it's like He has to almost make sense It has to be a part We're like Oh I can see Richard Gear in that part. But once you deviate from that, that's where we get weird. It's such a strange thing, right? Because he's,

you know, he was in Chicago, like six years later, which is a huge movie. Oscar winner, he's basically the star of the movie and widely praised. And, like, you know, he went on to do, like, a lot of great stuff. It's not, he's not like a, he didn't miss, you know, like, he was one of the movie stars of the 80s and 90s for sure. But, but he was never been nominated, right? I don't think so, no. Yeah, he was almost like an NBA star who ended up with 28,000 points,

but never played, like, in the conference finals. Like Adrian Dantley kind of guy? Yeah, yeah, Alex English. Yeah. He's like Alex English. Alex English is a great one. Casting what ifs. DiCaprio was the original choice for Aaron Murray, and he turned it down.

It's a pretty great what if. He could have done it. Great point at his career, pre-Titanic. A couple years after this boy's life, he's old enough. He could have been totally. convincing as a destroyed 19-year-old altar boy. That people are like, if he's in this movie, something must be coming, right?

No, not that big. He does, he's in like Romeo and Juliet age. Norton is billed like sixth in this movie. Norton's name comes after Alphrey Woodard and the credits. It's brilliant how they frame that. So you're just like, okay, this guy's just like... I think all that stuff is special. You're waiting for something else.

But you don't think any differently of Edward Norton in this movie going into it than you would have of James Marshall being in a few good men. It has to be an unknown for it to work as well as it does. He's already been nominated for Gilbert Grape, right? Yeah. I mean, he'd already been. Norton says, Leo, who's a really good pal of mine, he had passed on it.

Weirdly, that did a weird thing for me because, of course, it's like a once-in-lifetime career shot. But I thought Leo was terrific. I really thought he was one of the better young actors around. I thought he was right about the movie. I was like, this is a mess. That was why Leo passed because the movie was a mess. And they really kind of figured it out as it went along. He added the stutter.

they figured out a couple of reveals near the end and they made it. But that was why Leo passed. I mean, it's tough for me to say Leo would have been worse than Ed Norton. I just think it would have been different. I think there's not that many times in movies where you

get to see like a kind of complete unknown do something like this. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. That was really my hottest take which I burnt in the first 10 minutes, but I was like, I don't know if there's ever been a better debut performance. The Roughlo Hannah Ribodeck Partridge overacting Award. They knew! and they let it happen.

Don't you call me, lady! I come in here, I give these things to you. Give me all you got! Give it all you got! I treated you like a son! You fucking stab me in the heart! Fuck you! Fuck you!

Richard Gere, I mean, a couple times. Yeah. When in particular. There's one time when he's yelling at Aaron. I have a fucking right. I'm Aaron Stampler's attorney. Your little shit. I feel like he's doing that purposefully performatively.

though, no? He does a lot of, he does a lot of piecing. Yeah. Okay, okay. All right. My guy Rick has dialed up a couple times. Do you think living nerve-ending, Laura Linney is overdoing it a couple of times in this movie?

I feel like she might be a little bit of hands shaking with the cigarette and, you know, on the left hand. Best that guy were Joe Spano from Hill Street Blues popping in. He became a that guy for years and years and years. The Alderman? Joe Spano? He's like that cop who goes in. Yeah. Oh, the cop.

Yeah. What about Tony Plana? Alderman Martinez. He was the alderman. Yeah. Good one. Also, just for what it's worth, Lester Holt, CBS.

Oh, yeah. Lester working in Chicago, yeah. They used all Chicago people for this. Dion Waiters, can we just give it to Manny and move on? Oh, is Brower in it too much? I think he's in it too much. Yeah, I think he's one of, I'd say he's one of the five or six stars.

Bauer's in three scenes. Okay, let's go. Who do you have? You have the girl on the sex tape? Yep, enjoyed her work. I really like this. shot's like I go with Linda. Moving on.

I do like the moment when Terry O'Quinn is like, you really drew me off my game. Swipan's Bill is just like dealing right now. Free balling it, man. Yeah, we're not balling anymore. We're just free balling here. What does he say to Laurelini where he's like, start looking for a new job?

Yeah, start looking for a new job. Yeah, he's a good job. Yeah, he's a good deal withers. Plus, it's always fun to see him in any of these movies from this era before he's lost lock. Recasting couch. I mean, the reporter can come up with 200 possibilities that are better than the reporter. It's like, was John Cusack busy to do like two weeks? It's kind of a small part.

I think you just pulled a bill there a little bit. Can we get Denzel and this guy goes two lines? I thought that's a bill now. Is Brandon's not alive? Did he just come in? Could add like Campbell Scott? Yeah, sure. Couldn't have grabbed him for...

Was Olivia Havilland not alive at that time? Connie Britton in the Moritirney role? I know Sean would like it more. Absolutely. I do love moratirny, though. She's got five blinds. I think Moratirney's great. She's like, what do you want us to do next, Marty?

Like, we could just let Moratirondy have that. Have fast internet research mentioned a lot of this stuff, but in the book or the script, there's no stutter. when Roy shoves Richard Gears' character against a prison cell while Gears seemed shocked

because Norton had lived that one he didn't know it was coming and then he also ad libbed the slow clap one of the great movie moments of the 1990s slow cap slow cap is it Apex Mountain for slow cut

flat out of Brubaker Wow immediate Or What Brubaker Can't Buy Me Love What's Can't Buy Me Love? Love, great slow clap.

That does not compete with Aaron Stampler. I'm sorry. I like Can't Buy Me Love. I too watch John television. I dare say Brubaker doesn't compete with Aaron Stamler either. Brewbaker has an entire prison. Brewbaker created the slow clap. Nobody even knew what a slow clap was.

But Brubaker stars one of your mortal enemies. Redford. Listen, I respect the work. I just, the rest of it speaks for itself. It's kind of like Kareem. Like your relationship to Redford, similar to Kareem. The police station where they go to see Stamper, was the same exterior used for

Hill Street Blues where our guy Hablett was the producer and director of a bunch of this. Where are you out on Fallon? Hoblet's follow-up. Not bad. I like it.

It's okay. Some great John Goodman Yeah, movie. Some Elias Coteas. That movie? Apex Mountain. Gear, no. Lorelini, no.

Browers, is homicide on at this point? It is, right? So maybe for him. He didn't win the Emmy for... He won eventually, right? I think he won for Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Oh, gosh.

Not for Pemilton? Nobody else in this movie. Mahoney. Mahoney is on Frazier when this movie comes out. And then the same year is she's the one where he plays the... Oh, you're right. That's good.

He plays Ed Burns and Mike McClone's father. How about multiple personality murderers? That's a good one. I was trying to think of this. I think it might be Apex Mountain for multiple personality disorder. What are the, what's the competition? Sybil. Isn't that, isn't Sybil about a girl with multiple personality disorder?

Psycho? Yeah, I guess Psycho. Psycho. Yeah, geez, psycho. Just hear me out. I think this is Apex Mountain in general for sorted VHS sex tapes. Same year as Pamela and Tommy. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorted VHS tapes became a thing right around here, and it's in the movie. When you would watch the Pam and Tommy tape, would you wear a sweatpants? Best racehorse name, Butcher Boy? Yeah, that's good. Love it. Yeah.

Perfect. No notes. Here comes Butcher Boy. I like that scene when Gears going in to see Stampler, and he walks past the Chicago cop who's like a Chicago cop and the fugitive. You've seen him in a bunch of movies before. And he's just like, oh, butcher boy, huh? And Gier's like, yeah, I forgot his real name.

You're right. Pickin' Nets. I got one. I have three that I'm excited about. You go. Well, the biggest one for me is when they go to barley corns at night and Janet walks in and she goes, Stu, I'll have the usual. And then they just bring her a butt light.

Yes, I thought the same thing. It's like, that's not a fucking usual. That's a beer. But that's a usual for you. That's not the usual. It is a unique drink for it to be usual. is a drink that they know to make because you want this. I disagree with this.

Chris is 100% right. What? No. The usual is not a bud light. Just say bud light. I'll just be like, Stu, can I get a bud light?

Can I get a beer? The usual is like bud light with like a shot of whiskey in it or something. Yeah. And like a lime on top. The usual fur should be like a cosmo or like a or like a... All that the usual indicates is that she's in a bar five nights a week. I don't think it has anything to do with the complexity of the drink.

I disagree. I agree. And you used to be a bartender and you're backing me up. aren't you? If somebody was like the usual, Bill, and you're like, you mean a fucking ice water? Like... You don't say the usual for a beer,

especially like a pretty available beer. Yeah. All right. Just in general, you just say the name of the beer. You don't say the usual for a beer. I guess it's more just that it's meant to indicate something about the character. Sure. Then get a fucking whiskey.

She's a grounded, regular gal who works for the state's attorney. I know she's drinking a liter of Diet Coke before that. I love that. I'm just saying. 20 ounce of Coke. Yeah, it's the scene previous to that. The usual has to be at least a little interesting. You wanted her drinking like an apple martini.

Yeah, well, not something. It doesn't have to be like overly feminine. I just mean like it's a cocktail that this guy's like, oh, I better get started. Janet's here, you know? If you order coffee, you'd be like, oh, the usual. Right. It's just a black coffee.

But what if it was just... I'd rather just say black coffee. What if it was just a neat whiskey? I go to the same coffee place every day and they know what I want, but I always am like, hey, and they'll be like, do you want your regular? Like what you usually get? And what is it?

It's like a light roast with rooms that I can put milk in. So a black coffee. Yeah, but that's different though because a coffee requires variation. But it's like a light roast or a yard. A beer can't be changed. And it's also a large.

They know it can have a lime in it. Could be served with water. Nobody puts fucking lime in Bud Light. They have Bud Light lime. What are you talking about? In 1996? I'm just, I'm not going to die on this. I really don't care about this at all whatsoever.

It's like it's in the movie for a reason, is my point. I understand. But when they. Bring her the Bud White. I'm like, this is the prop guy not thinking this through. To me, I guess all that it indicates is that she's like a civil servant and she just drinks Coke. Make it a weirder beer then. Like an international beer.

Yeah, make it be an answer. Put a shot of whiskey in it. Yeah. Well, I'm sure that there was a product placement reason for the beer being in the movie. This has been a year long losing streak for you in the reality. Dating back to the Hank's Cruz argument. I've just been killed on pods lately where people are just like, you're wrong and you suck. And I'm like, what the?

No, but you're very. I think you could have just been like great. point CR. And to your credit, you don't, you can't. I am just being honest. In the same way that I was being honest, you should say the usual and then just have a bad take. And we'll know it's coming. I honestly am thinking of retiring from this medium. I'm dead serious. I'm just not into it. Oh, come on. I'm really not. Wait, I'm going to lift you up with this. Why didn't Richard Gere just use an insanity defense?

Why did we even have this movie? Is there a better picking it than this? It's a great take. you do this whole roundabout complicated way to get where we could have just gotten? No, but they didn't at the time when they made that But it's really, it's very Missoula

of Marty Vale to be like, what if I did this really elaborate third man defense? But he didn't have the Francis McDormand interrogation in front of the camera, which is that's when things flipped. That's when it's clear

that Roy is around. How about insanity defense for I stabbed a guy 80 times I was covered in his blood and I carved his eye. out and then Gears responses there was a third guy maybe I mean that goes back to what I was saying where I was like I don't know why he took this case yeah and it's like his whole thing is like don't you

think that's possible that someone else was in the room and they're all like uh that's actually one other thing that you always hear in these movies when you were doing the tropes which is you always have a lawyer say I just need one juror right to think there's reasonable doubt you always hear that I love that yeah see he's trying to make it up to me because he knows that I'm feeling low he's trying and back me publicly. I always back him publicly. My God. You have the best takes.

Everyone knows that. The only thing worse than getting dunked on is being patronized. What else does this show to say that thing? Cool reference, bro? Cool reference. You always have the best references. Sean couldn't rape a fly. All right, here's my number one picking it.

This just in general drives me crazy in movies is the, omnipotent cigarette and the person just not smoking this. It's a really weird bit. It's out of control in this movie. She smokes it when she starts. Doesn't you say at the beginning I thought you quit? Does he?

Yeah. She says like cut down. If we did a batting average. Well, she gets scolded for smoking in the indoors everywhere, yeah. But never actually smokes. If we did the batting average of how much she actually smokes versus holding the cigarette, it's like 0.0.035.

Because Lennie didn't smoke. I think she's not a smoker. And they're like, no, no, your character has to smoke. My experience is that most actors that you see are smokers, personally. Or a lot of them are. In real life, you mean? Especially of this era. Right.

Who did we say we did this on another pod? Who was the worst smoker? Was it Cruz? Yeah, but he's obviously not a smoke. I mean, Cruz is the worst everything. But there's been some bad smokers. And then there are the smokers where you're like, well, that one was already lit, like, before the cameras were rolling. Wow.

peaking with De Niro and Goodfellas, like the all-time. It's a great cigarette smoking we've ever seen. Yeah. I was really happy to see Jenna Ortega smoking the other day. In real life.

Yeah, it's cool. It was cool. Who was the one you loved? What was the one we did where you were just going nuts? Oh, Edy Falco in a copland. You were going to throw it all the way for her. Yeah.

And then the other one I had was by the way, so when people watch, if you ever watch this movie, just watch all the Laurel Lenny's smoking stuff. We could cut a YouTube clip of just her doing this with the shake. And then we mentioned the other altar boys. Not one other altar boy,

Brink coming on the stand. Here's Bobby. He was an altar boy who worked with Aaron. I think the idea of... Bobby, did you ever have an idea of... Is it possible that they were afraid of Aaron? I would have loved to find out in the stand. Was it where any of the lawyers could have been

testify because you're afraid. Alex is trying to disappear. Yes. Alex is trying to get away. Any of their picking nets? I think you're, why didn't they not consider the insanity defense is incredibly strong. Thanks. Sequel, prequel, prestige TV, all black cast are untouchable. I was trying to think of this as a prestige TV.

I think it would be good as a miniseries, like a four-episode thing. It's like you're the night of thing. Could this have been like a seven-episode HBO show? I also would be like they would have to send out only the first couple of episodes because I just don't think people would be able to help themselves to be like, make sure you watch on the fourth one tonight.

Big, big twist, you know. Well, they probably blow out the Manny part. Yeah. Yeah, the whole... In Mahoney's character and real estate. Yeah. I think maybe like a CBS-style prequel sitcom called Young Aaron. I think it would be fun.

Just him in Kentucky. Just Aaron and Crickside, you know? That would be fun. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treo, Catherine Hahn, Steve Buscemi, Sam Jackson, J.T. Walsh, or Philip Baker Hall? God damn, Roy! I didn't know I was representing a supervillain. Time, big boy. Man, let's go watch the One Shining Moment highlight reel in 96 Kentucky Wildcats featuring Ron Mercer and Tony Delt. You think Aaron was a big cat's guy?

When did you put that together? That's not bad. That's a good team. Yeah, Petito. That was a good team. At first, I was like, this is too easy. Yeah. Just putting together the cop and the criminal,

but then you really close the loop with Patino. Well, I was like, what was going on in Kentucky in the mid-90s? You think Stampler is a huge hoops head? Just elevated yet again. Just one Oscar who gets it. I mean, Norton only was the only. when I got nominated, I would vote for him. Pretty weird for

scummy trash like this to get nominated for any Academy Awards. I enjoy it. Probably an answerable questions. I have two good ones. Is Ed Norton the greatest multi-personality actor ever? He had this, fight club, and the Hulk. There's three. Yeah.

Does anyone have four? No, I can't argue. Anyone got nominated for an Oscar for one of them? Excellent. Who's competing against him? Excellent take. Thank you. Off that one. What do you think that says about Ed Norton? That's a good question. And he sees a multiplicity of personalities

within every character. Is this movie better if Aaron's alter ego is in Roy, but it's worm from Rounders? And he turns into Roy and he's being like, let's go get a game. I got one lined up an hour away. The Country Club, yeah.

Yeah. You know what gets me and they takes, he takes him in Atlantic City. And it just, the movie turns into Rounders every time he's Roy. I think about how far away Aaron is from Worm. What a great actor. What a great actor.

That's what I'm saying. Those first four, man. Best double-featured choice with this movie? I had a, I'd spotlight. Just because of the, you know, the abuse scandal stuff. I was going to say rounders, but I just, I couldn't think of a better one. Did you skip probably unanswerable questions? I did, too.

Do you have any? I have one. What do you got? Do you think it would be cool? Yeah, because we're always looking to iterate here. should I create a character called podcast Roy and I'll tell you how it works Bill, start talking to me about James Harden.

Chris, let's go to have James Hardin. Shut your mouth, you little girl! But maybe like every pod Bill just keeps pushing and pushing and pushing. He's already giving you a few moments like that. And then podcast Roy comes out. Podcast CR? I like it.

Yeah, I had Spotlight or another one was Widows. Another good Chicago crime movie. I feel like this movie, one of the reasons why it's so fun is it's in this great lineage of 60s movies like this, like anatomy of a murder, where a very similar thing happens where there's like a revelation to the lawyer who tries the case about what the defendants were actually doing. That is like, it's part of a story. Like the novel too is part of this like long lineage of these kinds of movies. So that would be a good one. The Indian Red Zawadena Award for what happened the next day.

I think Aaron Slash Roy gets out pretty soon. Yep. Becomes an NBA insider, becomes Adrian Wojurowski. It's funny you should say. I had, would Roy become a Chicago sports radio guy? I mean,

that's all related to his interest in the wildcast that year. Is Adrian slash Woj similar to Aaron slash Roy? I'm going to say yes. Wow. Yeah. It's interesting.

Adrian, interesting take. You shut your mouth, Windhorst! I could just see Roy really killing Jay Cutler. You know? That era. This guy's a disgrace.

Shut your mouth, Culler. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? I'm going to go with the rarely scene. I don't know if I'd want anything from this movie, even though I really liked it. I'm about the Cardinals' fingers. The fake fingers?

That's a pretty great shot. It's like, is it showing slashing? Yeah. It's pretty brutal. Maybe Laura Lenny's cigarettes? Yeah, she's not using them. What was she smoking? I think Benson and Hedges or Virginia

Yeah. Yeah, the Virginias. That's another one. They're kind of making a comeback in the idol. The Slims. A comeback, you say. Well, supposedly the weekend has Cartet Blanche to smoke whatever he was.

I don't know if you caught that. He did. Do you think the weekend screwed that up or the character screwed that up? Well, it's like a perfect little microcosm of the question of the show, which is, are they in on this joke or are they not in on this joke?

Right. Well, this will be recorded. This is going up after the finale. I guess we'll know the answer. I don't think we will, to be honest with you. The finale. But we just skipped to the last episode. Only see R and I'll be watching.

The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. I like if you want Justice, go to a whorehouse. If you want to get fucked, go to court. That's a little... On the nose. A little on the nose for the first line of the movie. Yeah. What about just invent a second personality and you can kill anyone?

I was bipolar the whole time. OJ should have thought of this. This is a good note for podcasters too, but a small piece of advice. Don't use the word heinous in a courtroom. Half the jury won't know what you're talking about. Yeah, that was good advice. Who won the movie?

Norton. I think Gears wonderful in this movie, and it doesn't really work because he's practically in every frame, but Norton makes it like a rewatchable and a special. Do you think Richard Gehr could have been in Braveheart? He was in first night the year before the first night, the year before this movie came out. Yeah.

And I think the people spoke on that one. They did. Did you know who directed First Night? Mike, no, I don't. John McTiernan? Do you remember? No. Jerry Zucker, the director of Airplane. Do you think that Richard Geard could have been Jack Ryan?

Ghost. I do. Do you think he could have been Vincent Vega? No, I don't. But that's interesting. Gear in a Tarantino movie is interesting. He seems like Tarantino would be like, I always liked Richard Gere

and I just could never find the right script. That's Chuck Closterman that you're doing right there. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, Chuck. He loves, Quentin loves the breathless remake starring Gear from the mid-eighth. My mom's favorite movie ever. Is that true? Yeah. I was just going through this in my head

and the roles that I most want geared to have had, Clooney just took them all. Oceans, out of sight. Oh, why wasn't Gear and Ocean? Wow. Gear got market corrected in the 2000. The Clooney Market Correct Gear? Holy shit.

Fuck. You didn't even have that good of a career. He did, though. This is an emerging Bill Simmons take. Oh, that you're like... I mean, the directing career is one of the worst directing careers. Yes. Anyone said.

We need, like, a rich text to break this down, really. Like, well, I don't know what a good Clooney movie is for. You guys have a perfect storm. I think Clooney kind of took over from gear where he just had a couple big movies and then mostly bombs. I think it's because you're not an oceans guy. Yeah. I am an ocean's guy. How am I, I'm not an oceans guy now?

I got oceans, out of sight, descendants. Yeah. What about from Dust Till Dawn? That's the real test of the Clooney Head. I like it. I like Dustal Dawn. Movies fine. Craig, what did you think of Primal Fear?

I like courtroom movies, I think, more than probably the average person my age. I think in general, the courtroom might be the best setting, the best location for a scene. Might have the highest ceiling. Like, the best courtroom scene, I think, really, really brings it home. I don't think this was the best court room I've ever seen going back to like the verdict Fair enough

I heard you guys have spent four hours last night and two hours on this pot I'd just like you to know you wasted your time idiots I just had trouble with like believing gear wanted to do this to be honest the whole time

Not the character sorry Martin I didn't understand his motivation why he would want to do this case and I thought that affected the whole movie I think like with Newman and the verdict We didn't talk about that Why did he want to do this case?

We did. That was Sean's point. But why ultimately, if you had to make the case... I think he just wants to be in the spotlight. Yeah. I think he's obsessed. He's in the middle of the magazine profile. He's trying to become...

Yeah. He's trying to become a high-profile lawyer. It's just the actual details of the case don't align with what the very savvy high-profile lawyer would do. I also... I can't believe this made $100 million. I know it was the era. But just imagining if this movie came out now and it's like...

Chris Pratt and Sir Sharonin solve the murder of the Chicago Archbishop in theaters June 12th. I'll tell you what, we're going to find out because there's a movie coming out at the end of this year called Juror Number 2 directed by 92-year-old Clint Eastwood starring Nicholas Holt and Tony Colette

that is a pure courtroom drama with a twist and it's got a great premise and movies like that never come out anymore. And Clint made it in 48 hours. I saw a photo of him from the set. He certainly looks like a man who is in his 10th decade. Also, I hate to say this, but I think the slow clap was lame. Oh, come on, Craig.

What the fuck. Get the fuck out of here. Craig, it sucks. Oh, my God. Did you know the twist before you watched the movie? No, I don't have a problem with the twist. The twist was great. I thought the specific slow clap ruined it.

And I don't know if the slow clap has been ruined over the years and that it's a trope now. But to me, I'm like, the slow clap is. So you didn't know the twist. I'm devastated by that take. The slow clap is hacking. Jackie to me. Jeff Chow of the ringer. We probably say,

good for you, Marty at the end of like every fifth meeting that we have to get. Oh, I got a sandwich day. And Jeff will be like, good for you, Marty. And then Chris says,

shut the fuck up, Jeff. You crying like a little girl? Couldn't kick your own ass. Before we go, my son had some notes on this is the end. He listened to the entire podcast.

he didn't understand what Apex Mountain was Did Ben and Zoe How hard to believe To the pods? No No Okay They can't take me seriously

In any format Does Carrie listen to the pods? No Okay Yeah They have that in common with Phoebe Yeah They're around me every day

They don't need my takes So none of your wives Listen to anything you guys do No Eileen will listen to movie drafts But I think mostly for Chris But he said Get rid of Apex Mountain

and we should have ranked the actors instead. That was his, that was his, that was ranked the, this is the, this is the, that generation. I was like, what do you mean rank the actors? It's like, yeah, you should just, like Danny McBride would have been first. In that movie, that's a fun exercise. Yeah, but you can't really do that in like primal fear. You can't do it in primal fear, but I did think for ensemble movies, that might be a good category to add. Like, we actually just, Ben Simmons ranked the ensemble.

Yeah, the eye of the attention span of a mosquito. This is for me. is the first step in Ben taking over the pod. Every time he and I are like, hey, we have somebody do some of the rewatchables. You're like, who the fuck is this? And it's like, Ben's just like, let's rank guys. And it's like, this kid's a genius. Hey, Sean, good news.

Meet the old boss. It was the new boss. Listen, he's a creature of YouTube. Who's the guy in YouTube who does the basketball stuff for TikTok? The guy, the guy traded? I don't know what you're talking about. Trident. He loves trading.

He just ranks guys. Trident is just like. Best five slam dunkers right now. C.R. Meet your new boss. Troiden. Troiden. Troiden and Ben.

Detroiton and CR show is going to be great. It's going to turn this place into GameStop. All right. This podcast was produced by Craig Horlebeck. Thanks to CR and Sean. We are going to be back next week with another courtroom movie. That is going to be from the same decade. That'll be your hit.

Okay.