The Rewatchables - ‘Rachel Getting Married’ With Bill Simmons, Amanda Dobbins, and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

It’s the second installment of F’ed Up Family February and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Amanda Dobbins, and Wesley Morris will be your harbingers of doom for the evening as they revisit director Jonathan Demme’s 2008 family drama, ‘Rachel Getting Married,’ starring Anne Hathaway, Rosemarie DeWitt, and Bill Irwin. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic magazine on tech culture and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud, tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly. Creative Studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process,

Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car on Carvana last night.

Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch

would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's lamated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on. Pick up fees may apply. The rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer

podcast Network. You can find the big picture with Amanda Dobbins and Sean Fennessee on there. You can find Wesley Morris's podcast still processing on another podcast network, but he does it with Jen and Wertham. And this will be the second installment of Fucked Up Family February on the rewatchables. Last week we did Ordinary

People. This week, Rachel getting married. This is a very dysfunctional movie. It's next. We are gathered here to celebrate love pure and simple. Rachel is pure, send the assembly. Oh my God! You look great.

Oh, no, I'm so fat. Stop it. No, you... I would swear to God that you were peaking again. No, I can really see Rehab has done wonders for you, Kim. Oh, darling. Is your sister behaving herself? I'm Shiva the Destroyer and your harbinger of doom for this evening. It's going to be perfect. Oh, God! La Haya!

It's getting classed of them. Oh my God. Oh, my head. We all of us. And this is how it is in heaven. And may all of your ups and downs come only in the bedroom. Okay, Amanda Dobbins is here. Wesley Morris is here.

We're going to talk about installment number two of Fucked Up Family February here on the rewatchables. The weirdest idea we've had. Rachel, getting married. married, this is a very dysfunctional movie. It hits so many of the signature of fucked up family staples. I made a little list

for you too. These these are just, you know, possible things that can be in a fucked up family movie. Drugs. Yep. Horrific parenting. Divorce.

An accidental death or murder? Mm-hmm. A suicide attempt. A little dark. Needing to get away from someone who triggers a past trauma. sure infidelity child abuse an untouched dead kids room yes and someone pulling away from a meaningful hug as if they are being dipped in acid this movie i just listed 10 things this movie hits one two hits seven of the 10 Wesley this is one of the most dysfunctional movies I was just a couple

of those that would have made this movie even better or good at all to depending on where you stand on this. I made you watch this, Wesley, recently. I told you we were doing this. You were surprised. But what was your take on the rewatch? It's still thin. It's still thin.

It does not have, there's like, I was thinking of what movies this is like that are better. And why this one feels so weak in terms of like the dramatic juice that's underneath it. And I think it's principally because there's nothing underneath it. I mean, you know, the trauma is not enough, right?

And the family history... Jonathan Demi's priorities are just different from Jenny Lumet. Jenny Lumet is the person who wrote this movie and Jonathan Demi directed it. And I just feel like he just doesn't want to do this family drama stuff. He does not believe in FFF, you know? What do you think? Yeah. I mean, this was excruciating to rewatch, which is the point. And I actually think is the strength of the movie. I mean, this movie is a hundred minute argument for never having a wedding. Just don't do it. This is what happens. You know, and like when I had my own wedding, I had some reservations, and this is pretty much why. And I think Wesley's right that Jonathan Demi is still resisting all of the mess and the melodrama of this movie. He wants this family to be.

okay. Does anybody else in this family want to be okay? Interesting question. But I do think in the moments when they're all working through it together, it's very obvious and tough to watch, but also memorable. And, you know, I carry a lot of these performances with me, which is just a horrible way to go through life. Why do I carry them? I was about to say. I know. I got to let them go. We need to talk. I know. I know. I do think that it captures something, maybe not real because it's so over the top, but memorable. But man, was I hiding under the blanket a lot while watching this? So I'm more on the Amanda side.

I really like this movie, even though the last 30 minutes, I'm still not sure what happens. But we'll talk about that when we dive into it. I think the performances are really good and really unique. There's a diversity to this movie that for 2008, I, I think was ahead of its time in a lot of different ways from just the cast to the music to some of the choices of the people that he cast. And then our girl Anne Hathaway, she's just really good in this movie. She's really affecting.

She creates a character and sells the hell out of it that you're invested with, even though I'm not sure she's a good person. But, you know, the fundamental question is, how do you move on after you've done something atrocious? How do you live with yourself? how do other people live with you, which are themes that are really interesting for a movie. But ultimately, Wesley, I was thinking about Succession

when I was watching it this time because Succession, the most dysfunctional family we could have in a TV show unless you want to go Game of Thrones. Succession is at its best always when there are these big functions, right? Weddings, anniversary party, a 50th, whatever, or this last season.

Why am I blanking on the lead sun? Ken. Kendall, Kendall throwing himself the birthday party. It was always at best at a big function because at a function it can go different ways. Different characters can move in and out. The dysfunction can really rise up because everyone's supposed to be on their best behavior.

I think this is the most dysfunctional wedding movie that's been made. But you know more about movies than me. Is there another one that dove into this, the whole concept of a wedding weekend and all the things that can go right and wrong? I mean, I don't, is this? the celebration about a wedding? Is that a wedding movie or is it a birthday party movie? I can't remember

now. I can't remember. Um, you know, their wedding. Okay, first of all, I just want to say it, just back up because you and I have talked about my favorite, um, it's not a genre necessarily, but my favorite event in movies, which is the party sequence. Yep. It doesn't matter how good or bad your movie is. If you have figured out a way to make a, make a party sequence, whether it's like a cocktail party or a birthday party or a wedding where like a significant portion of your screen time is being taken up by the gathering and co-mingling of people, I am in.

A hundred percent. Graduations and reunions you left out. Those are, and reunions now are back, like yellow jackets, force fed the reunion episode in. But yeah. Holidays also.

You're right. Yeah. Right. But you've got it. It's got to occupy. I mean, it doesn't even have to be narrative necessarily, right? It's just an event, like it's a little Robert Altman movie in the middle of your Preston-surge's comedy. And if you're lucky, the Sturgis is the, the Altman is the flavoring and the Sturgeon, the Sturgeon.

The Sturgis is the pot, right? And I just like what happens when a good screenplay and a good director meets good casting and good acting. This, Rachel getting married does not have, not all of those things work well enough for me. And I think part of it is everybody, the thing that irks me about this movie is everybody's trying so hard. There's like a, this is, this to me struck me. Now, I forgot where this movie was set. It's set in Connecticut. I don't know where in Connecticut, probably in the Hartford area.

No, Stanford. Stanford. Okay. That makes sense. All right. There's something about the sort of the self-congratulatory whiteness on display here. And there's something about how happy everybody is to be getting down and okay. And like the saris and the kente cloth and the line.

Here's a line that I had to just write down because I couldn't believe it. Where is it? Don't you think they were parodying that, though? No. I can't tell. Jonathan Demi making a parody. No. Did you just meet this man?

He doesn't do parody. This is 100% coming from his heart. And I'm not here to laugh at it. I'm just saying it just struck me. It just struck me as the earnest, the over earnestness of it. The line is, do you want any of this sog paneer? Yes. That's an actual line.

Like, this is not a satire, Bill. There's no way that these people are being made fun of because that's not the spirit. That's not Jonathan Demi's presiding mode as a filmmaker. He's a humanist, and he is treating these people as human beings. I think there is something about the sort of, what I can only describe is, oh my God, multicultural interaction that this movie is very proud of

Because the movie, this is Demi in his late, it's late period Demi. And the movie he had made maybe two years before this. Oh, wait, maybe it's six years before this. The truth about Charlie. Yep. Which is like a real, I actually love that movie quite a lot. And it's got a lot of this energy in it, right? Where it's a bunch of different people from different places sliding around a plot for two hours.

And in that movie, it kind of, like, that felt like a referendum on what the movies needed to be doing more of. But that movie was also about these black people. It was about these different black people in Europe. None of these people is American. Well, none of the people in the truth about

Charlie is American, except for Mark Wahlberg, who's the one person who seems like he doesn't belong in the movie. And I love the spirit of that confusion of people and conflation of places and cultural ideas. This to me feels like, Like, I went home with somebody I went to college with for the weekend.

And this is what happened. I think he tries to get to some of that with the music, which he's very proud of. Like, in a lot of the research of it, he loves music. Amanda, why do you and I find this movie so rewatchable? Because I know with my wife, there's a stretch of about, I would say, 45 minutes of this movie that if I'm passing through, I kind of have to watch. And for some reason, I love the rehearsal dinner and the toast, even though it's one of like the six or seven most awkward scenes. probably ever in a movie. But I love it for some reason.

So what is it? I have an impersonal answer for us and a personal answer for us. I'll start with the impersonal so we don't have to do our psychology immediately, which is, I think that this is a really key Anne Hathaway performance in terms of understanding her and her career and also what happens to her in like a pop cultural sense in terms of people thinking she's a little too extra. and she becomes like a lightning rod in like the, I think it's like 2010, 11,

around the time that she's hosting the Oscars. And these qualities that I think make her an incredible actor, but are definitely a lot. And the extraness that she is bringing to this character, which is like very squirmy and uncomfortable throughout a lot of it is what makes the performance good and is kind of a thing that she can do when she's allowed to that some other,

like a lot of directors, don't let her do and that sometimes the world at large doesn't want to see. I think also as as children of divorce, we watch this movie. Okay, so here we are three individuals. I'm a COD, baby. We watch these people come together and try to make like a normal family event work. And it never works. Like it never.

And I basically have anxiety about every. family event now because I'm like, oh, God, how is it going to go wrong? Like, what's the thing? And this portrays like 45 different ways that it can go wrong in a way that is like ultimately implausible because there's so much tragedy all piled in together. But I think we like that other people are making just like a way worse mess of it, you know? That's a good, because it's all through the dad. The dad's the proxy at all this, right? He's got this like really crazy, artificially happy energy. Can I make you say, Wesley?

Can I make you a meatloaf sandwich? And he's just super happy. But lingering underneath it is just this incredible amount of pain. And it just pops out a couple different times. Even like after the wedding, when he hugs, who I can't, I can't wait to talk about Deborah Winger. Like I literally can't wait. Oh my God. When he hugs Deborah Winger.

I only watched her through your eyes, by the way. Oh my God. I can't wait to have that. But yeah. So Amanda, we see it the same way. Anne Hathaway going back to her. So after she does all the princess stuff and whatever, 05. Hey, hey, hey, hey, princess diaries.

My daughter's in. I know. I get it. I get it. I'm mad because I had to sit through them for like two years. Sure. O5, she does havoc where it's like, whoa, what's this? Interesting movie.

Brokeback Mountain. She's the wife. She's got a bad haircut. Oh, all right. Bad in that movie, but we forgive you. It's not your fault. The haircut was unrecoverable. Devil wears Prada.

Breakout. We've done that one on the rewatchables. Coming Jane, I don't remember. Get Smart. Rachel getting married, Passengers, and then 2009 Bride Wars. And now she starts edging toward that part that Amanda was talking about. The Oscars is coming. Where's that Jake Gyllenall, that really, really good Jake Gyllenhaal movie that I can't remember the name of it. Love another drugs. Yeah. That's after. Yeah. That's after. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And doesn't get enough credit for it. I think this was this was the peak of Anne Hathaway might be our next great actress.

Whatever, whatever was on first take for movies, whoever movie Stephen A. Smith was. Shoutdown takes. This was Ann Hathaway's 08 peak. And Wesley, a little similar to the Gwyneth thing. And now we both love Gwyneth, I think, more than Ann Hathaway. But where there's this fun stretch, or there's just so much potential for, oh, my God,

where's this going to go? And I don't love where we ended up. I'll be honest. Well, you know what's funny that you mentioned, you mentioned Gwyneth Paltrow, and Amanda sort of alluded to this a little bit, but like there is a real active contempt for people who want it, right? And Anne Hathaway, even more than Gwyneth Paltrow, wants it. And unlike Gwyneth Paltrow doesn't have, I mean, doesn't have a, doesn't want to have a plan B, right? doesn't want a thing to fall back on

in case the acting thing becomes too fraught, too stressful. I think that Gwyneth Paltrow was also operating from a trauma that we did not know about that we now know about with respect to what was going on in terms of the machinations of her career with Harvey Weinstein.

I think Anne Hathaway's her desire for not being liked. That's a different thing. But for just wanting to, like, her craving the work and her like her thrill

at being working and being in movies. Her commitment, I guess, I guess it's commitment, but the commitment never recedes into the character. So there's like an eagerness even when she's playing a bitch, right? And she's just going to give you

the most she can give you as whatever it is she's doing. And that's sort of what I love the theater kid. Whatever part of Anne Hathaway is a theater kid, that's the part that I feel like is dominant in her. And I think she is bringing up for people a personality trait that they don't like. Who else does that? Or what other actresses are in that world?

There's no star I can, I mean, you'd have to go back to the 50s and 60s to find people who had that. Maybe Sally Field. But Sally Fields thing was different because it could, she, no, Sally Field. Well, I mean, it's so funny because Sally Field has the, you like me, you really like me awards moment. And Anne Hathaway has the,

it came true awards moment when she finally, which I remember the first lines of both of those acceptance speeches. So I think it's an apt comparison. But even within it, you know, Sally Field is like directing out towards the world of you like me. And Anne Hathaway is just like, here is my dream

and I'm finally holding my Oscar. And we did it. It was not my favorite Oscar. I'm going to asker's speech, even though I truly love Anne Hathway. Also, I mean, she won for Les Miserables. What are we doing here? Don't get me started. I forgot about that one. It's awful. So I'm going to talk about Jonathan Demi, but we'll take a quick break. Come back. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty

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Every Sunday from April 12th to May 10th, we're running free sessions at the Boys and Girls Club, New Rochelle, for all children. Tap the banner or visit clinickids.com to learn more. That's Clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is a registered 501C3 nonprofit. Okay, Jonathan Demi. one of the weirdest IMDBs, I think of any director. In the 70s, he's just doing B movies, Roger Corman stuff.

Roger Corman, yeah. He does Melvin and Howard and then Swing Shift, which are four years apart. Then has this really fun, Something Wild, swimming in Cambodia, married to the mob stretch, heading into the 90s. And then out of nowhere, Silence of Lambs, Philadelphia, he wins two straight Oscars, which has this distinct directing style and this ability to pull great performances out of whoever he's working with. On top of making you root for these people you were surprised that you're rooting for,

on top of like the close-ups, he does that cool thing where the person always feels like they're looking into your soul as they're talking. And then it's just like, okay, what's next for this guy? And then he doesn't work for five years. And then he does Beloved, which a movie, I don't know. I'm not sure a white person has directed that movie in 20. 2022. And then the truth about Charlie, I don't know. The Manchurian candidate, he does that for some reason. And then this seems like it was his way of kind of going back to his roots a little bit,

that late 80s kind of weird movies. What am I missing, Wesley? Wait, what was the other Oscar for? What was the Philadelphia Oscar for? I thought he won. Didn't both of those win for best movie? No. No. Oh, no, Hank's one. Hank's one. Hank's one. Hank's one. Oh, yeah, you're right. Philadelphia didn't win. Yeah.

I mean, it was controversial because it wasn't even nominated for Best Picture. Right. Or I don't know if it was how controversial that was. But Demi won for Silence of the Lambs. Definitely one for Silence of the Lambs.

There's one picture too. So I screwed that up. And actress as well. Silence of the Lambs ran the table. Right. He was, he was, but your point is just that

he was hot. He was, like, this is a person who'd been around for a while who had peaked industry-wise, right? And he had come up with a form. And, you know, he had come up with a style that was, that was unique and now very copied.

And the thing, the one thing I would mention is, like, you talk about performances. He can get great performances out of all kinds of different people in all kinds of movies. Like, the best thing that's talking heads have ever filmed is a Jonathan Demi movie. Yes. Stop making sense. You know, the great Spalding Gray, the canonical Spalding Gray imagery is all from swimming to Cambodia. Wait, is that, that's the one, right? Yeah.

You know, I think that he, for a while was, you know, even to the end of his career was a great director of all kinds of actors, especially people. I think that the thing about Beloved is that I think that movie is misunderstood, right? I mean, if you just sort of, if you don't focus on the fact that a white man was making the film and that, you know, that's the person Oprah Winfrey picked. I don't know. I don't exactly know what the deal was

in terms of how it wound up being Jonathan Demi. But this was a Tony Morrison book that was written by, the screenplay was written by white people. you know, Oprah Winfrey picked the director. And I think some of the acting in that movie, Oprah Winfrey is, that's some of the best acting she's ever done. Kimberly Elise and Thandie Newton in that movie, two of the best performances,

I won't say I've ever seen, because I've got to really qualify that. But if I'm making a list of 200 great performances in American movies, I'm definitely putting. quoting Kimberly Elise and Thani Newton in that movie. And, you know, there are some other Jonathan Demi performances. I would put Dendell in Philadelphia on that list, you know.

Danny Newton in The Truth About Charlie, he's a really good director of Rosemary DeWitt in this movie. Yes. Yes. So I screwed up my post-orical thing they did. It was the Silence of the Lambs, which ran the table on everything. Yes. Yes. That was the one.

somehow he didn't get nominated for Best But he did have the best actor in two straight movies Yes So my apologies But yeah This was kind of the last gas for him And he passed away in the middle of last decade But I think this is

You're omitting Ricky in the Flash Oh I forgot about that! Well I think Merrill Street You know, Merrill Street will take any opportunity to sing Which you know But she wanted to do that as well What are your Demi thoughts Amanda? Stop Making Sense is probably my number one demi movie weirdly just because of where

I was in life like I was too little to see Silence of the Lambs when I first came out so that the fixation the performances that Wesley was talking about and there is also something like Stop Making Sense is really meaningful to me in a way that is probably like parodic of me you know of like there is like this earnest like self-satisfied energy to some of the talking heads, artistic stuff that you can almost see in like the wedding sequence of Rachel getting married. Like I see the two connecting. That doesn't mean it's not like hugely meaningful to me.

I saw stop making sense in college and I was like, oh my God, like the world is changing. And then the other thing I would say is I had time to watch one extra demi movie yesterday. And I obviously picked married to the mob. So, you know, that's where we are. So those two documentaries he did, there weren't a lot of people trying to make entertaining documentaries in the 80s. And I remember both of them were on a lot in the like HBO kind of world. And it's not making sense.

There only been a couple really ambitious music documentaries like that, right? Where, you know, Scorsese obviously did them. But for the most part, they were usually like concert films that were shot a certain way. And that one was like what? That one actually had like a real angle and a real bent. And I thought accentuated the artist and brought the artist up a level, which is so hard to do. Well, the reason that you don't really think of it as a concept. movie is because you never see the audience.

Right. Like, the genius of the movie is there are no cutaways to the audience. And so you have, I mean, that's sort of the problem of Rachel getting married. It's like, it's all cut away to the audience. And, you know, and the people you've come to see, like Robin Hitchcock, I don't, why is he playing in her wedding? Because that's the kind of wedding this is, you know? But so, yeah, it's not making sense as just one of the great pleasures in, in a American filmmaking, period.

This is what Time Magazine wrote about Demi in 2008. When exactly did Jonathan Demi loses sense of humor. Back in the 70s and 80s, he was the best or at any rate, the most promising young American director. He had a taste for American Eccentrics for the vagaries of Life in the American Road and a talent that extended beyond fictional features to concert films. Documentaries in their day, Citizens Band, Melvin Howard, Something Wild, Merri than Bob, had about them a sort of humane nuttiness in a...

ability to catch the fun and shrewdness of ordinary of hard-pressed folks without ever patronizing their goofiness. He was the most pleasure-loving and pleasure-giving of directors. Is that Shickle or Corliss? Who wrote that? Shickle. Richard Shickle. Okay. It's not wrong, but I think it kind of misunderstands that whatever the trade-off there would be, right? It's that Richard Shickle is assuming that Jonathan Demi has lost something in his shift away from, like, human comedy to human, human, humanness, right? Human tragedy in some ways, right?

Like, he goes from, I mean, the last of those movies, something wild is the shift, right? It's the literal, it's the tonal shift where you think you're watching one movie. And then he just turns the record over, and it's something else, right? And married to the mob is a little bit of the same thing where like the indulgence there is that you think you're watching this sort of zany comedy about a bunch of, about a, well, I don't know, you think you're watching a mob comedy

but it turns into like a romantic comedy about a woman finding her purpose in life. Which is, like, I mean, I mean, Amanda. One thing about him was that Amanda, he seemed like he was an incredible influence on this whole generation of directors. I think he's somebody that gets brought up a lot over the last 20, 25 years because he was doing something different that stood up. Yes.

I mean, I think Paul Thomas Anderson in particular is just like that. That's my guy. That's the number one guy. And yeah, it's also the different things that he actually did try in his career. Because as you said, it's a weird IMDB page, but he did the Roger Corman movies. He does, you know, married to the mob and something wild, which are like off-kilter, classics genre recognizable with

you know big movie stars then just absolutely lands like the silence of the lambs Philadelphia era is like almost the most interesting anomaly in the career because suddenly he's just like smack dab in the middle of the Oscars being like yes I have made

your 90s like studio drama for adults things that we complain about that don't get made anymore which they don't really but so I think the range of things that he tried. And then also, it seems like, there's a humanity to Rachel getting married, which, as Wesley pointed out, like, maybe doesn't even match the script itself, but is pretty evident

in all of his work that it just seems like people really responded to. Like, this is a person who is, like, trying to engage and is, like, fun to, likes to work with. Like there's like something hopeful in all of these, except for maybe Silence of the Lambs. Even that, even that has its hope, right? Yeah. Like in a weird way, the idea that Hannibal Lecter is, well, I don't know, loose in the Caribbean.

I'm a little nervous about that myself. A sense of connection, maybe, in all of these. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. He's also gravitating to big stars at great points of their career, which I think in the research of this, like he sought out Anne Hathaway for this movie. He clearly thought, like, this is somebody I want to work with right now at this point and really lobbied for her.

But you go back to something wild, right? He catches Melanie Griffith at a really good time in her career, you know? Silence of Lambs, Philadelphia. He's working with some of the biggest stars we have in the early 90s. And even in 1998, like the beloved, Oprah, that's, is that peak Oprah, late 90s? It's Oprah's imperial period, basically. You know, during which Oprah Winfrey used all her power to get a Tony Morrison book filmed

and people just were, they were just ready to like have it not work, right? I think that Disney didn't know how to sell it. I don't know why Disney even, they wanted to be working with Oprah Winfrey, but they didn't know how to make that movie work. It shouldn't have gone out in 2000 theaters or whatever that opening weekend was,

whatever that opening weekend number was. It was just set up to fail. Yeah. And, you know, it's not, I don't think the Beloved is a filmable book because so much of it is metaphor, so much of it is interior. And the minute you make Beloved a physical, the minute you turn Beloved into Thandi Newton, no matter how great Thandie Newton is in the movie, you do have a symbolism problem, right? Because you don't want to make an effects movie because you've got these great actors. but really, I mean, Beloved is, I can't believe I'm going to say this,

but like, Beloved is kind of, if you're going to make a movie, it's CGI. It's something, Beloved is an entity, she is an idea, she's also a physical embodiment, but there isn't, it's too literal-minded that movie.

And there wasn't enough. And Demi himself is such a like, like physical human connection and the idea that you would, you would have a person sort of be disembodied in the way the beloved necessarily is. It just doesn't exactly work. The other thing about Demi and his lack is alleged, like, loss of humor is that he is, his humanism extended to nonfiction filmmaking beyond music, right?

I mean, he made The Agronomist. He made Man from Plains about Jimmy Carter. The agronomist is about, you know, about Haiti and, you know, Haitian politics to some extent. this was a man who you know his liberal his liberalism his interest in people

succeeding his belief that you know a person like Jimmy Carter has sort of been misunderstood by history and here's an attempt he's kind of right in a work in nonfiction

to like remake the case yeah that sort of thing that that instinct is what is guiding some of his late filmmaking for better and for work And I think that a lot of where his heart was was in this literal idea of people coming together in space and holding it and sharing it.

Like the plots of these movies at some point stop mattering, right? The truth about Charlie is only interesting. It's exciting because the plot is the movie can exist with this plot, but it exists very much beside its point. and the things about Rachel getting married that are most interesting to me are the ones that seem the least the least written and the most improvised. Yeah. And there are ways in which he knows what he's doing. To your point about satire, I want to point us to moment number 4-4-4-4. Okay.

Which is when Rachel and Kim and the mother and the step, sorry, Rachel Kim and the Bill Irwin character, Dad, and. and Rachel's husband who's played by TV on the radio's Tunday out of Bente which I'm saying wrong

I'm sure they're all in the living room and they're going to talk about what they're going to begin to talk about what happened and there's a moment where they all they have a conversation

you get the gist that something terrible has happened and all of the white people in this conversation exit. And at moment 4, at moment 44, 44, because I got the timestamp, Anna Devere Smith looks at Tunday and gives him a, these white people are crazy. It's not quite that telling her eyebrows don't go up, but you know that something is passing between them

that is about two black people being in a space, with white people or white people are doing their thing, right? And like what is left for us to do but share this one second of screen time connecting to each other? It's an amazing moment and it happens exactly once.

The rest of it is Demi's multicultural party. I mean, not the rest of it, but the rest of the time. Right, right, a lot of it. So Ann Hathaway, nominated for Best Actress, did not win. Our winner was Kate Winslet from the Reader. This is a very, very strange

Oscar year, even within the weird Oscar years of the late 2000s. This is the year that the Dark Night doesn't get nominated. Everyone's losing their minds. Heath Ledger wins. This is the Oscars that changes the movies, right? This is when they added the categories. The five nominees, Slumdog 1,

that will last long. Benjamin Button got nominated. Frost Nixon, which I liked. Milk, the Reader. Those were our five. And that's what spawned. Change. Kate Winslet, I texted Wesley.

I thought the reader was the darkest porn movie ever made. I just out of nowhere texted him like 10 o'clock one night just to freak him out. But Kate Winslet wins. Ann Hathaway nominated. Angelina Jolie nominated for Changeling, which is a weird movie. Melissa Leo Frozen River and then Merrill Streep in Doubt. Pretty action-packed category.

But Winslet, there was a moment where it seemed like Hathaway had the Oscar and then Winslet, everybody decided it was her time and that's what happened. Screenplay was written by Jenny Lumet, as you mentioned earlier. She was a high school drama teacher. She wrote four earlier screenplays.

This was the one that produced. It's your classic. Kept plugging away. It finally happened. $12 million budget made 17. $15.5 million. Wait, is she, is Jenny Lumet, is Sydney Lumet's daughter? Yes. I believe so, yes.

Lena Horne's granddaughter. Yes. So I wanted, we're going to talk about that in a minute. And then, um, and then our guy, Roger Ebert. Four stars. Really? Wow. Okay.

Talk. Speak to us. Quote, I believe the film's deep subject is the marriage itself. How it unfolds, who attends, the nature of the ceremony, what it has to observe about how the concept of family embraces others and how our multicultural society is growing comfortable with itself. I do I know, Roger. Roger. I know.

I know you're going to like that. No, no, no, no. Actually, I'm Jesus Christing because I actually think that is a beautiful way of seeing it. He saw something in this movie that I don't see. But when I read, when I hear what you say, Bill, about what Roger wrote, it's in there. Like, I believe that, I mean, I think in some ways it's Roger giving Demi the benefit of doubt in some ways and he's looking past a lot of stuff. And the party stuff, I will, I'm going to admit something to you guys that I've never

admitted before. Okay. Because it does haunt me. Okay. This is the only film review I have ever written that I feel like I didn't tell the truth. The only one. It's the only thing I've ever written that I felt like I was lying. What was the fake truth you told?

I wanted to accuse. this movie of being liberal bullshit. I wanted to accuse it of being satisfied with gathering these people together and doing nothing with them once they're there. Yeah. Of basically, you know, using Anna Devere Smith and, you know, giving, making, making,

fuck, I got it. Hold on. Let me get this guy's name exactly right. because you know what's interesting about Anna Devere-Smith I actually think how she's used in this movie is really really interesting in a good way because they don't give her the scene where it's like oh all right here's the scene that explains why she's there she's in a lot of the scenes but she's very careful not to intrude

because obviously she showed up pretty late there's a whole bunch of baggage going on and she's just trying to be supportive. But she's doing a lot with her face. And there's that one scene when it really falls apart and it cuts to her. And she's like just broken up by it. And I feel like she has an impact on the movie with nothing to work with, which is a really hard thing to do as like your seventh character.

Welcome to your great stage actress, Andrew Smith. Bill, I think I agree. I have a lot of questions about Carol. I think that's the character's name. And I have like a tremendous number of questions about Sydney's family. because Sydney is the groom's character, right? Tunday Atabin Bay is... Tundi Atabin Bay's family who are like present to Wesley's point

because we are, you know, the movie is making a big show of this gathering and this union of these families. But it's the question of whether the movie is doing the work to make you have the questions about these people or do you have the questions about these people and characters even though the movie isn't really acknowledging that? or serving them. And I think, I do, I agree with you, Wesley, that it's like a, it's the latter.

I just think this is a movie that shouldn't have any questions. That's the thing about this genre of movie. The movie has answered all the questions before you get there. This is not an existential crisis movie or style of, of storytelling, right? This is about people working out their shit with each other. Yeah. And there's years and years and years of stuff underneath it. But once you find out what actually is going on,

it's so much darker and deeper than this movie is prepared. Like, give me ordinary people any day in a weird way, right? Because that is a movie for as overwrought as it is, is willing to like swim in those currents. I'm going to push back a little bit because this is fucked up family February. So the movie does two things that I think are important for a movie like this. One, the question lingering over it is, can you be redeemed after you drive off a bridge and kill your little brother because you were high?

What are your next 20 years look like? And how does your family deal with you when the whole concept of a family is, I'm sticking up for you because your family no matter what happens, right? So that's the worst case scenario of what could happen. and they have to deal with that and hang over it. So you have that. You also have the sister relationship. And as both of you know,

I love sister dynamics and movies and TV shows. I feel like it's the great unexplained because you have competition, you have older, younger, you have all kinds of things going on. And you have... Because you clearly don't have... I know you don't have a sister.

Well, I'm an only child. Yeah, I'm fascinated by a sibling stuff. I am also fascinated as an only child. I agree. So you have this whole sister thing where this, I mean, she ruins her sister's wedding weekend, right? She ruins the weekend itself.

She ruins the pregnancy announcement. The pregnancy announcement happened. She gets mad because she feels like she was trying to undermine whatever. And then on top of it goes missing and has a car accident and comes back with a black guy. And what does the sister do when she sees her? She becomes a sister. Yeah.

Like she's like, I have to fix this. Yep. I don't know. That resonated with me because my dad has six brothers and sisters, and they've had a lot of dysfunction over the years like all families do. But the concept of the family always wins. No matter what happens, they're always there for each other. And that, to me, her re-embracing her after all that happened and be like, let me give you a bath, let me try to fix this. I thought it was a really important scene. But unfortunately, it's the last important scene of the movie. After that, we go to the wedding and basically it's

Jonathan Demi having a concert. I have some notes for Rachel, the character that I will bring up during nitpicks. I mean, I just have some questions about what she's learning and her psychology degree and how it might be applied to situations in her own life. But whatever. The thing to me that is interesting about this, that sense of like this family does, they still have to be a family. And you can feel Jonathan Demi in particular just being like wanting to make it okay. Like wanting to make all of these people and this family, like still a family. And it's going to work out even though they clearly have no idea how to talk to each other. They clearly are not past this tragedy in any way, shape or form. And like, frankly, they probably never will be. I mean, so much has happened. And so it's like this moment in time of a very messed up family, like sort of trying to make it work and getting more. moments of not being a normal family, but at least being functional and being to each other

what you're describing, Bill, like in the bathtub or like in the dishwasher scene, etc. Or the scene when she, when Deborah Winger is hugging the two daughters because Rachel wants a hug and she's, and they won't look at like their faces are so close, but they won't look at each other. That's an amazing. That shot is amazing. It's amazing. That's two actors really under, I mean, what a great, that's the best shot in the mood,

like after Anna DeVier Smith, looking at the time. I'm talking Wesley into this movie. Wesley, you're coming around. But let me say something about, there's a really important point to make here about Demi style, what I don't think is missing from this. This movie, this is the second movie I think he has shot this way. It does not look, it is not made in the voice of his previous movies. Or like, you know, it's made in this middle era for him. Or what sadly is his late era. But what at the time seemed like his middle era.

where he's doing a lot of handheld work. Yeah. And his, there's a tension between his loose, kind of, a kind of amagardism in independent filmmaking style with, you know, the kind of dog, and dogma urges where there's just not a lot of stable camera work, a lot of handheld stuff,

versus, you know, the sort of more formalist way that his cameras worked in something like Silent to the Lambs or Philadelphia. and there's something about being up in everybody's faces in this kind of improvisatory atmosphere where I don't know how many takes they did of things I don't know how faithful they were to Jenny Lumet's script but there is something about the

the sort of unrefinedness of this movie it's not raw and I think it should either have been rougher or way more mannered. It's not really capturing what for me feels like life on the fly. I have an answer for you in this. Okay.

And this came up in the research. Okay. He was obsessed with the live music part of this movie. And this is something, and I'd watch this movie, I'd watch this movie a bunch of times that never really noticed this.

There's no actual score in the movie. It is all people playing music during the thing. And in the research, he was like obsessed with this. And to the point that the actors would get annoyed because there was constantly music as they're trying to act. But if you actually watch carefully in each scene,

there's always somebody playing music somewhere. They're outside, they're rehearsing or during the actual wedding. And I think that was a big part of why he wanted to make the movie was the music, which is weird. He does not care about this family shit. He just doesn't care. He might have cared about the music more.

Right. Oh, I'm not kidding. That scene where Anne Hathaway I'm going to say Anne Hathaway and not Kim. She's like, can you make this music stop? That's a real take. She got mad at the music. That was actually Anne Hathaway saying that and they kept it.

Yes, it's amazing. And Anna DeFier Smith, of all people, has to go outside and tell these musicians who are much closer to her people than Anne Hathaway, I would say, is to Anna DeVier Smith. And like to tell these musicians, you got to keep it down out here. Do you mind for a second?

All right. We have to take a break and we got to do the categories. We're way off schedule. Yes, sir. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity.

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Call 1-800-500-545-977. or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Coming back, we don't have most rewatchable scene for fucked up family February. We've decided it's called most gripping scene. Okay. Even that is in this movie straining. Most gripping slash dysfunctional scene. Right.

Oh. There's a clear winner for this one. Yeah, there's a clear winner. Just some nominees quickly. Kim finds out she's not the maid of honor. Why is Emma the maid of honor? Why am I not the rate of honor? What does that mean?

Because I wasn't entirely sure when you were coming or if you'd even make it. What, I wasn't sure if you'd have time for a fitting. It's a sorry. You take a bolt of cloth and you wrap it around yourself a bunch of times. Jesus Christ, I've been home for a day. I can't get a straight answer to anybody.

What are you talking about it? I'm talking about dad offering food every two seconds. Oh, you know, dad offers Irish hunger strikers food. No, no, it's not even about the food. He has to know exactly where I am at all times because he's never resolved his own trust issues. That's odd. You know what? Shut the fuck.

All right. Blow me. Okay. I just love when sisters fight. I just give me that all the time. Just like so much stuff gets drenched up from when your kids basically. But that all seems really good. That friend also is a really good, annoying blonde friend.

Perfect. Just like, what are you doing here? Thank you. Why is she making the sari's? Whatever. We'll put that. We don't even. The saries. Jesus Christ.

The saries, I have a lot of questions. Do you don't have any questions? They're all being answered. by the fact that they're in the movie. You know what the answer is. But still, I was like, wait, what? Why is this annoying blonde woman making it? Anyway, yeah.

The next one. So I'm combining these. Deborah Winger shows up for the rehearsal dinner right into the speeches and all of those speeches. And the way that's filmed, you can actually see the camera once. The handheld thing, he was so into the table's weird, right? It's not like one long table. It actually curves around.

I have been it that way. I've been at that wedding. Oh, my Lord, that is some real community, unitarian. It's really. I watched this over the holiday break with Zoe, my daughter. Didn't tell her anything. And we get to the speeches, and I'm just kind of watching the movie through my daughter. And there's like speech, speech, another speech.

And Zoe starts talking. She's like, no, Kimmy, don't give a speech. Don't give a speech. Don't do it. Don't get, don't. And then all of a sudden, she gets the mic. And so it's like, no. She doesn't get the mic, Bill.

She takes the mic. It takes the mic. Takes the mic. And so watching Zoe watch that, I really had a good time. But yeah, that is like when she grabs the mic and the demeanor of the room changes and they're cut into Bill Irwin and they're cut into Deborah Winger and they're cut into Rosemary DeWitt and all them have those thin smiles of just complete panic, trying to pretend they're together,

but like, oh my God, where's this going? That seems amazing. The point is I spent a lot of time apologizing to people who were pretty much perfect strangers. So I would very much like to take this opportunity to not only congratulate my extraordinary sister, the future explorer in matters of the mind, thank you very much,

and her adorable impending husband on the occasion of their unprecedented. incidented nuptials, but also to apologize to said extraordinary sister, Future Explorer, Matters of the Month for what? I don't know. Everything. And I really mean that, Rachie. It's perfect and also so uncomfortable.

So uncomfortable. Like pull the blanket over your head. You're dying as you're watching it. I watched this again. And I was surprised. I was dreading it, actually. I was dreading it. I was dreading it.

But I think the other thing that I was dishonest about when the movie came out originally was I felt maybe I don't remember this for a fact. But I think that I know one of the punches I pulled was that I so loved Anne Hathaway that I just wanted everything about this movie to be better than it was for her in a way. And watching that speech now, I just felt like, You have seen worse. You've seen worse. And it's not as quengy.

But it's the dread at the table versus the actual speech. The dread is what makes that scene. Yes, the dread I had even. But, like, the speech itself is actually not that bad. It's fine. Yeah, it's a little reminiscent of euphoria. I don't know if you saw euphoria yesterday, but. I'm an episode behind.

They have the intervention for Rue, and she just turns on Sidney's character, Cass. And it's very, very similar of like, oh, no. Like you're just like dying as it's happening. It's believably bad. Like you have been to a wedding that's like it's maybe two steps beyond how uncomfortable it is. But God,

you've been to a wedding where you know like the sick speech in and as soon as the person starts talking, you're like, oh no. Oh, here we go. Here's like the uncle with some, you know,

some bad sense of humor. It's just. Did you guys have that at your weddings? I didn't, but I've been to some doozies. I've been to weddings where a best man got heckled to give up the mic. Like basically, people turned on him. Like, give up the microphone.

How many weddings have I been to where the maid of honor wrote a poem? More than two, you know? Or other bridesmaid sang a song? Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's the worst. It's a different kind of bad, but there were no poems at my wedding. Next scene, the post-rehearsal group fight that ends with Rosemary DeRitt just being like,

all right, I'm pregnant. No, it's like you're not happy unless I'm in some kind of a desperate situation. You have no idea what to do with me unless I'm in crisis. Why am I the only woman to say this shit? You know, you are so much more evolved in your suffering. I'm not, who is talking about that? Your suffering is not the most important thing to everybody. Who is saying it is?

I have a life. I'm in school. I'm getting married. I'm... What? I'm pregnant. You are pregnant now? Are you serious?

Oh my God! What? All time. It's really... I'm going to drop the mic with the pregnancy. It's... Halfway getting bad. That's not there.

Wait a second. That's so unfair. And everybody falling for it too. That was the, I mean, quote, falling for it. It's like great news, but. The dishwasher scene. Yeah. Yeah. Can you guys talk about that?

Yeah, talk about that. Well, I have some nitpicks that I'll save for later on the dishwasher scene. Sure. Actually, I'll just do it now. Storage in general. Yeah. Just people bragging about being good at filling a dishwasher is like one of the weirdest things I've ever heard in my life.

Like, who would ever brag about that? But seeing the Ethan plate, oh, Wesley's raising who said, I do pride myself on my dishwasher. I've gotten to fights with people at parties about how they're loading the dishwasher. Well, maybe it's more real that thought. It's such a fun scene.

Everybody's involved. It's a good way to get the groom in. Everyone's having a great time. And it's, hey, let's get him some more dishes. And all of a sudden, there's the Ethan plate. And it ends with Ian Hathaway alone in the kitchen, just broken again. That is a brutal.

It is. Brutal scene. That scene also captures something that I always think happens in other families and larger families, because, again, I'm an only child. But where you're all thrown together at some point and then you become fixated on something really small, like, you know, whether like some dumb house thing or like a game of cornhole or something that the family is the dishwasher. Yeah.

My sister and I still fight about. Wow. Who knew? Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, I'm proud of the dishwasher in general, my situation, my ability to load it. But my sister and I specifically, we've been fighting for almost 20 years. Because we never had a dishwasher as kids, and my sister is still holding on it that pride of washing dishes by hand. I'm like, you have a really nice dishwasher now.

Load it! Right. And that's our fight whenever I go home to her house. But Amanda, you were saying, sorry. Yeah, just that to me, this is like the close before. the Ethan plate reveal. That's like the closest that they get to what I in my head think of as a functional family. You know, like of everyone crowded around it together. Like it's good spirits. It's like really stupid, but everybody's buying in. That's like what you're supposed to do.

And then it comes crashing down, which makes it like doubly sad in addition to just the brutal reveal of the plate. We have the rehab speech, which is intense and long and a good job by her. We have the post-hair salon when it's revealed she was making up stuff in rehab and the sister freaks out. Oh, yeah. And then she goes back at the sister. Who do I have to be now? Who do I have to be now? I mean, I could be Mother Teresa.

It wouldn't make a difference what I did. Did I sacrifice every bit of love in this life because I killed our little brother? It was an accident. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Kimmy. I'm sorry.

And that's when the dad finally breaks and just starts crying. And that's when we get the end of it. That scene's really intense. But not as intense as this next scene, which I just wrote down. Kimmy fights mom. Mom, why would you leave a drug addict to watch your son? No, you were good with him. You were the best you were with him.

Listen to me. Listen. Well, I did it. Let you to kill him. sweetheart. Mom. You are not supposed to kill you. I mean, come on.

This scene's unbelievable. This is like, it's just, there's almost no way for the movie to recover after this scene. No, no, of course not. We can't kind of come back from it after this, right? No. But to me, this is the problem with the movie, right? It peaks with that scene. No, not only that, Bill, but like, it's so much darker than.

then then then then then demi will let it be yes like he does everything jennie lumet screenplay tells him to do but this needed this needed like a trash a trashier director you know what i mean or it needed like i don't know who the right person would have been but it needs somebody who either has a real interest in family drama dynamics or it needs a person who just wants to see sensational acting, like act all over itself. Like David O. Russell? Yeah, oh my God.

That would be out of control. Yeah, maybe. But he wouldn't be interested in the family part. That wouldn't be, like, there'd be some other aspect of the, he'd have to build something in that wasn't just this family tragedy. But Demi isn't interested in the family tragedy. He's interested in, like, getting past that, in the healing, right? And he wants the last shot.

He wants the last shot of Rachel. Everyone's gone and she's watching the band and things are okay. So this moment with Deborah Winger and Ann Hathaway, what? It's so deep, right? And you can- You were good with him. Oh, my God. You were the best you were with him.

It's so brutal. It's really, I mean, this screenplay, it's just not a good screenplay. I don't. We're doing five movies for fucked up family February, and that might be the most intense 90 seconds that we have. Last thing I had was just mom leaves the wedding early because we have the hug. And it's just clear that these people are damaged

and they're not going to be coming back from it. What do we have for most gripping slash dysfunctional scene? I have Kimmy and Deborah Winger in the fight because that's like I've never, you rarely see something like that in a movie. Ditto. Ditto. I mean, I would make the case for the toast.

Yeah, the toast would be the backup. Like the iconic one, but I mean, I can't really argue against Wesley made a good point, though. Or one of you made a good point. The speech, I wish it was a little better. I think that would have pushed it over the top. It actually needed to be a little funnier or something. But Demi's much more concerned with just the reactions than anything else.

All right. Next category. What's age the best? Rosemary DeWitt, who didn't get nominated for this. who I just root for... Unbelievable! Yeah, didn't get nominated. I root for her in everything after this. I thought she was great.

Best supporting actress. I can't remember. Okay. Penelope Cruz for Vicki Christina Barcelona. Okay, yep. Then we had two people from doubt, Amy Adams and Viola Davis. Yes, obviously. We had Taraj P. Henson in Benjamin Button.

Oh, Taraji. That's right. Yeah. And then Marissa Tomey and the wrestler. Who's really good? Oh, that's five. That's five. It's pretty good. I mean...

I'm picking one person from doubt. But doubt is, yeah. Two nominations. It did. It did. They're both fantastic. They're so good in it. But that movie is just like engineered for all of us to get supporting actor, actress. All right.

Wesley, knock one out. Out of those five, who's leaving? Oh, don't make me do that. Yeah, I'm making you. For Rosenry, I do love. I mean, uh, wait, who was the fifth person that we just said? Merceda Tomey and the wrestler. She's really good at that.

Yeah, that's really great. kind of career. I don't want to do it. I can't do it. I can't make Taraji P. Henson Lee. Can I call on? I'll cut Amy Adams.

No! Yeah, I'm cutting Amy Adams. No. I'm cutting the Alex Smith of movies, Amy Adams. No. You can go 10 and 6 with her, but you can't win a playoff game. Amy Adams. Listen, she's going to bounce around some teams.

She is going to win the Super Bowl someday. No. One day. Morewood's age the best. The music, I think they do do a good. good job with how weird the music is. It's definitely memorable. I don't know if, you know, I don't know if I've seen anything

like that in the movie. I love that they say the title in the movie. We have somebody give a speech. That's a great. I really, I did like that. I did like that. That I did like. The rehearsal speech is the trumpet guy. When he's, everything's so happening, he's like, let's give a little shout out to our guy, Ethan. Oh my God. And he, all of a sudden

the dead brother is being brought up. And it cuts Dan Hathaway who's just like you could just see the life lever body. That seems incredible. Sydney's song at the wedding is really good. It's beautiful. He has a beautiful voice. It's almost like that guy should be in a band. Oh, it is. Wait, but it's just Neil Young, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just, okay. It's just a good performance. I like it. He has a beautiful voice. It is also funny. He does a great voice. At this TV on the radio. Yeah. I know. I know. I know. I know we all know that.

But this moment of the TV of the radio like phenomenon, like, you know, and him being in it, it's very, it's fine. I do have to say just really quickly, just to my point about like the things that kind of irked me about this movie, his name is Sydney, right? Yeah. Like, it's not for nothing that this guy is coming to dinner at this, like, at their house. His name is Sydney. Right.

Okay. It's a bit much. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Or, you know, or it's a tribute to her father. It's either way, something, something's going on here that's kind of under-examined. It's either Sidney Lumet or Sidney Poitier, but somebody needs to work some stuff out.

That's all. I have one more Wood Sage the best for you. My girl Deborah Winger. One of my favorite careers, one of my favorite Google deep dives. Yeah. Over her career, she turned down Raiders of the Lost Ark. What? Fatal Attract.

action, broadcast news because she was pregnant, and Peggy Sue got married, and a league of their own. I forgot about a league of their own. I forgot about a league of their own. She dropped out of league of their own. And was supposed to be in Romance in the Stone, but had an audition with Michael Douglas and apparently bit him. That's on the internet. And that didn't go well either.

So those are six movies that she was almost in. What? I'll repeat them. Raiders in the Lost Ark. Turned it down. Fatal attraction. Turned it down. Broadcast news.

Jim Brooks wrote the part for her. Not in the movie. Pegasoo got married, League of Their Own, and then bit Michael. She was going to be Gina Davis' character in a League of America? Yeah. Yes.

This is amazing. And furious that she cast Madonna and was out. She's like, I'm not, I'm not, you're not making a real movie. I'm out. Deborah Winger. The casting of Debrosey. Leslie, where is your Deborah Winger

New York Times piece? your essay about Deborah Winger. Where is it? I mean, how does it not exist? It's got to come. It's got to come because... Come on, Amanda.

We got to get them to do this. I know, I agree. I love, you know, I don't love her. She doesn't do the thing for me that she does for you, Bill, because, well, I mean, you're straight. That's part of it. But I also think, I also think there's a really important thing that happens because, you know, I saw Urban Cowboy at a young enough age to be confused. about what to do about these two people.

And I didn't know that I didn't have to choose, so I chose both. But John Travolta and Deborah Winger in that movie, if you are the right enough age, it is overwhelming. Not the chemistry between them, but just the sight of them that young and that sexy and that sexual.

To the point of violence, that movie's violent in like a way that would not fly now. Like there's like some real domestic violence shit now. Yes. Yeah, I mean, she has urban cowboy. She has officer to gentleman, which became a phenomenon. And then in terms of endearment.

And she's in the catbird seat. She's the biggest young actress we have. Well, so Wesley, it's interesting because I come a little bit later to Deborah Winger. And so part of when I started seeing her in movies is I know that she made some interesting choices, didn't get along with people on sets. And you know, you always wonder about these, like, stories. And every time it's always the woman, not with her, who is like having the headstrong. If you guys want to just like, just Google Deborah Winger, like People magazine, 1987, 1990 or whatever, it's, uh, there's some content. It's really gripping. And she went after Richard gear. Oh,

she went after Richard gear like a really aggressive way. Yes. It's and like whatever she and Shirley McLean had going on in terms of endearment where they literally would have. How about this? She feuded with Linda Carter and Wonder Woman. She was Wondergirl and got out of the show because she hated Linda Carter. I love Deborah Winger. I love that she hates everybody. So if you know that the casting of Deborah Winger in this role is also amazing.

And to me bringing all of that to this figure and this mother who is just like clearly just not there for it. Like I think it's pretty smart. There's this. Wesley was the guy who of course invented the market correction one of my favorite theories of all time there's this whole world where if Deborah Winger

is both easy to work with and just goes in a different direction basically gets a lot of the Diane Keaton parts as she gets older like maybe becomes Nancy Meyer I know that Amanda don't let this break your brain she she becomes Nancy Myers's muse like she ages in because

she looks great in this movie and I don't know how old she was Just about to say when she shows up, took my breath away. Yeah. And she's probably like, I don't know, maybe she's 50 at this point. Yeah. Something like that. But she looks great.

But there's, and she disappeared. She didn't make movies. She left Hollywood from like 95, 2000. She was out. She let Arles Howard take over. Yeah. I'm in. I think she's fascinating.

I love her in this movie. She's only in like four scenes, but you just feel her in every second. What's age the worst? We've talked about a lot of this stuff already. I don't, the original maid of honor, who's so annoying, I thought weird casting with that one. I don't know why they didn't get a better actress.

I don't know why you guys found her annoying. I agree. I don't know what her. I found her annoying, but I thought she was supposed to be. Maybe, you know. Oh, she's not? I don't know.

I think they had to deal with a maid of honor at a wedding in this capacity. I think that there's something, I mean, the actor's name is Anisa George. Yeah. And I think that there's just something about her that we don't like. Because this is not that kind of movie.

Nobody is becoming a different person. That's not what Jonathan Demi's about here. He's not about people becoming different people to play these parts. He's about finding something in you that we can work with here. Any other what's aged worse for you two? I mean, I wrote the sorries down. But that's the sorry standing for a larger issue. Yeah.

The multiculturalism as a bad. of goodness. You know what I mean? There's something about the like, Rachel Sidney, Rachel Sidney, Rachel Sidney, and having that guy, what's that actor's name who is like the Unitarian Minister? Yeah.

That actor who's been in so many things whose name I now cannot remember. The guy who's leading the orchestrating the division. He's one of those guys. He's definitely of those, like that guy, that guy. I have an incredible casting, whatever. for you. It's going to change everything you thought of this movie, Wesley.

Or what your conceived notion is. I'm still recovering from all the Deborah Winger's casting what ifs. That could just be a separate pot. Yeah. No Holly Hunter with that. I mean, just imagine like Catherine, Catherine Hepburn, Kathleen Turner. Yeah. Oh, crazy.

Crazy. Go on. The role of Sydney played by the guy from TV on the radio. Tunday Island Bay, yes. originally offered to Paul Thomas Anderson. So there goes the Sidney Ponyer theory. Out the window.

I mean, they could have. It doesn't matter what they meant to do. It only matters what Sydney is functioning like in this movie. So he couldn't do it because he was doing post-production of there will be blood and he was. Oh, well, then it works out well for everybody. Really weird. He's never been in the movie. I like to see that.

I would have liked to have seen it too. He doesn't have a lot to do, so it's not like it would have been a hardship. It kind of changes the movie in like 19 different ways. Yes. Yeah. You definitely, it definitely is obviously less black to the extent that it's black at all. We don't have the song at the wedding. Like, it does a lot of stuff.

Yeah, that's really it other than Demi had wanted to work with Ian Hathaway for five years. Sorry, to screen. He was like, I want to work for it. But he does this, right? Melanie Griffith, he gets. My hero, Michelle Pfeiffer grabs her in the late 80s, perfect Michelle Pfeiffer sweet spot time. Over and over is grabbing people right as they're about them. He's got good taste in, he can see things in people.

Like, Danny Newton is another one of those people. Like, he just knew. How about Hopkins? Anthony Hopkins, same thing. I mean, I don't know how he got cast. Who's older, but yeah. Right. But he did it.

He saw something. More words. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pantsel word. So the guy who plays the best man who has sex with Ian Hathaway, his name is Matthew Zickle. And this was the biggest thing he's done. He was pretty much, I don't know say no name, but just wasn't a lot of stuff. But that's easily a part that could have been Ben Affleck or whoever. What else was he in?

He's not really in anything. This was like the peak. He's got it all, though. He's good in this movie. Yeah. I was saving him for another category. But I guess people are allowed to double up, right? Yeah.

He's, that man is very sexy and does a good job. He's a good recovering dude. Hard to resist. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for overacting. I love Bill Irwin in this movie, but he dials it up a couple times. His energy is like almost too crazy. I do wonder like, Amanda, would your brain have broken if this was Steve Martin as the dead? Oh, my.

Yes. But that, that doesn't work. because I would trust Steve Martin to be able to get it together a little bit. It has to be somebody you have no baggage with. Yeah, you're right. D. Ann Waiter's a word. Bill Irwin. Bill Irwin, I agree.

It's too much. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing how bald he is here. Yeah. Well, aren't they all supposed to be? Like, I mean, you could say that. Again, you guys, this is my thing. It's too much, too much, right?

Like, it's like here, it's like as though Demi's instruction was, you guys, we are dealing with some heavy shit here. There's some real heavy shit. But what I want us to focus on to every one of you, whether you're playing the fiddle, you're serving drinks, you're the father of the bride, the mother of the groom, we're all here to celebrate this wedding. Just never forget that. Diled it up. Never, never forget it. No matter how bad things get, we're here for this wedding. Jonathan Demi as like the nightmare wedding planner of this wedding. And just in general, like, is it interesting read?

Dionne Waiter's Award for Best Heat Check is obviously Deborah Winger. I think she's in three scenes. Yeah. Shout out to Sebastian Stan, though, for just being the crazy guy at the beginning for a minute and a half. Yep. Now he's Tommy Lee. All right.

I'm really proud of this for casting couch next category. I've recast the maid of honor. Okay. with Sarah Paulson. Okay. Yeah. That's a good one. Slightly brainier.

Nice time of her career. Okay. Yeah. I don't even know. Do I know who Sarah Paulson is at this point? Yeah. Sarah Paulson, yeah, because she was in the Studio 60 show, the Sorkin show. She was Matthew Perry.

I really know who Sarah Paulson is because that's when I fell in love with her. Yeah. Okay. I stand by the first eight episodes of that show. I got her confused on that. that show with Amanda Pete. I don't know how, but I did. Amanda made a face that when I said I stood by the first eight episodes of Studio

60, you made a face that was either I'm going to throw up or I'm glad somebody said it. My heart's open to it. I against every instinct and, you know, piece of knowledge in my body, we'll always have a soft spot for Sorkin. So it's not my Sorkin that I know, I know. You know what, I'm working on it. I would love your support. You have my number.

I just, I have a lot of questions about being the Ricardo's and it's third act that we could discuss it another time. Is that movie going to get nominated? Yeah, I think so. Oh, my God. What happened this year? I don't even talk about it. Yeah. It's over, Bill.

It's just, it's over. We're done. It's rewatchable for life. It's over. Yeah. We're just in the past. For life. Yeah.

Have Fass internet research. This movie was originally called Dancing with Shiva. Yeah. Oh! But you can't. It gets worse and worse. You know what? I should have said this about the toast as well. So this is one year after Michael Clayton.

So you can't even do the like I am, you know, I'm Shiva reference after the Michael Clayton speech. I'm sorry. No. But that should tell you everything to know about this movie. It's true. Like it is a total. I was going to say it's set in Connecticut, but for me, it feels like Jamaica plane.

Like in Boston. This is, this is JP. This is like Cambridge. where I lived for a long time. And like the vibe here is just like good white people just, I don't know how to explain it. It's just there's something kind of off about how like glad everybody is to just be getting the fuck along and having this party about like, you know, all of like just all of humanities here.

I can't explain it. I'm doing a very bad job of articulating a thing that I. I lived with and in for a long time. And watching it, like, crystallized in this movie in this way that strikes me is very, very sincere and very true, but also as drama, very false, right? I don't know. It's just so weird, but, but, but like, what's it called? What, give it up for Shiva?

Dancing with Shiva. Give it up for Shiva. Shout out to shout out for Shiva. Would be good. Dishwashers scene was based on an. actual event involving Sidney Lumet and Bob Fosse. I've no other details. Wow.

Wow. So I'm the Bob Fossy in this scenario, it looks like. Apparently. Here's what Demi said about music. Demi said, for the longest time, I've had this desire to provide the musical dimension of a movie without traditionally scored music. We have music playing live throughout the weekend, but always in the next room, out on the porch or in the garden.

So that was his whole thing. And then he had Robin Hitchcock play a wedding guest who played a whole bunch of stuff. And there's, if you care about this stuff, there's a whole bunch of stuff about it. So Ann Hathaway did complain about the music interfering with the scene they were doing. And Demi said, tell her to do something about it. So she actually got mad in the scene. And then that's what actually happened. Robin Hitchcock said, my memory of the whole thing is of being at a real wedding without the alcohol.

A lot of it was shot in real time. and the result was the whole thing seemed as if it really happened. The music is very organic, not manipulative. So they really did. I think that's why, Wesley, I think it's why you're wondering, all right, why wasn't this more focus? Because I think Demi really wanted the last half hour to play out that way. I get it. That's what's in the movie.

I mean, that's what the movie feels like it is. All the stuff with like, it just felt like the wedding was the point in all of the, all of this like real deep family. There's another version of this movie where there is no wedding, right? The wedding is called the fuck off, right? And we deal with this stuff because I got to say, the thing that does not ring true to me as a Negro is the scene, the movie doesn't have the capacity for this. But, you know, Jenny Lumet is the stepdaughter

of one of America's greatest Negroes, Lena Horn. And there's something about, this family still like in no point does the future mother-in-law pull him aside and say, girl, listen you know, I know the pain that you're dealing with

and I mean, I just want to I just want you to know that I hear you and you are so. I mean that's not a black woman's job right? But if we're talking about merging families and knowing that you're going to have to spend the rest of your life with these people in this way

I think there's I don't know there's just something about the idea that there's no scene between the black people of this wedding and everybody else or like Kim specifically

one of my picky nits was like this movie's better if that's the scene when you drop the Anna DeVar Smith bomb which you've been holding for 90 minutes of like is this person going to have a big scene or not And then at the end, you have the scene with her and Kimmy, and this becomes this mom figure that she's obviously needed ever since whatever happened with Deborah Winger. But that just would have been a good way to at least circle the movie back and have some sort of moment.

I don't know. What do you think of that, Amanda? I just also from the perspective of the WASP family, which I know like someone. And I guess this family is not totally a WASP family and frankly is not repressed enough because at some point, you're just, not going to behave this way around other people. Like, you know, better. You know, you do the fight in person, which they mostly do, I guess, you know, it is when everybody comes, comes home. But at some point, it's like a wedding. You're supposed to just, you know, lock all of your feelings and problems in a box because you don't do it in front of other people. So, you know, I don't know.

Again, I have a lot of questions about Rachel's psychology training that perhaps we could get to in picking this. All right, Apex Mountain. Anne Hathaway, I'm going to say yes. Yeah. I think this was about as much juice as she was going to have career-wise. Now, you could say the Oscars is like her most famous moment, but I think it's all going great for her.

And I would have bet on multiple Oscars for her at this point. Now, she has one, one. Rosemary DeWitt, yes. Jonathan Demi, no, obviously. Wedding movies? No. Amanda? No.

Absolutely not. No. Give me. Father of the bride, four weddings. in a funeral, my best friend's wedding. Three movies in the 90s. Great. I was trying to think of a fourth.

What's the Mount Rushmore? Those are three. I mean, is Godfather a wedding movie? Godfather one. I was going to ask. I'm thinking of wedding scenes. But the Godfather opening,

that is pretty important. I mean, it's like 25 minutes. Opening of the Godfather, yes, yes, yes. Bill Irwin, Apex Mountain, yeah. Wait, what? What is Bill Irwin's best thing? Why are we putting him on a mountain at all for this? Wow, just whatever.

Bill Irwin. He can, like, leave him on the stage. The next thing I have on this is fucked up years for people named Rachel. Because we have Rachel's getting married and Rachel Ucatel from the, from the Tiger Woods scandal. Oh, both 2008. Two Rachel's, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

And plus, Jennifer Anderson, who played Rachel and things have gone sideways at this point with her, Brad Pitt and Angel de Jolie. I don't know. Yeah, it's pretty tough. Connecticut weddings, maybe. Picky Knits. So wouldn't the police... Isn't she going to jail for killing her brother for like a few years here if she was high? Like I didn't understand that part.

It seems like that's a homicide. Negligent homicide? Yes. That's to get dark, but yeah, I mean, isn't she in jail for that? Well, it's not clear how old she is. Come on! So it's at least like, what, 10 years have passed? It seems like 10 to 12 years, which is another...

I had that for an answerable question. How many years between Ethan's death? And they're also, yeah, they're also mentioning like her relapse. So clearly we're not privy to some of like the immediate aftermath in terms of what happened and how she was disciplined or not disciplined. You know, like they allude to a whole host of issues that they just kind of fast forwarded. It's not like her behaving this way is brand new. It seems like it's endemic to the family.

Well, how old do we think she is in the movie? You would say she's like 25, 27? Yeah. So this was probably when she's like late high school? She says she was 16. Okay. So there you go. It's 10 years.

Yeah. So she could have been arrested. I mean, there could have been some issues. Yeah. Or maybe she's a minor. Yeah. Also, freeing Ethan from the car seat wasn't able to do it. Yeah.

But so then she just swam up and that was it. I wanted more info. I mean, it's pretty dark. But I just wanted to know more. I was just very stressed out. I have car seats coming into my life soon. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Yeah. And the succession was the next version of that, right? He couldn't get the dude up. Next picking it, just a lot of music at a wedding. Like, you don't have the money to or you don't want to spend the money on like an actual location, but instead you're spending the money on 75 musicians. It's true. There's not a lot of talking or socializing.

It's just a lot of people playing music. I mean, maybe that's like, that's how they like to jam out. I don't know. Any other picket nits for you? Sure. So Rachel is supposed to be getting her PhD in psychology in a year and a half. And at some point, when Kim is misbehaving, and especially when Kim is like at the salon and it's revealed she made up this story and recovery, you know, because she wasn't ready to deal with something. And the Rosemary DeWitt character is so mad.

But then the Rosemary DeWitt character is like, well, this is what happens when someone's in recovery. And it's suddenly like, captain, I know how to do it. deal with trauma and addiction and all these sorts of things. Did you not put any of that knowledge to use before this point? Like, did you not think anything about the situation that you're creating that this woman is coming back into? Like, do you want to use any of your expertise? And it's not totally fair because I know, you know, psychologists are people too.

And just because you've studied it doesn't mean you can enact it. But I'm just like, ma'am, I think that we're not setting people up to succeed here at this wedding, you know? Yeah, they basically have her when she's coming to the wedding. She might as well be being wheeled in like Hannibal Lecter and silence of lambs with like the metal mask on. Right. I'm just like, if you're trained in this, then maybe you could have thought through some

of the situations. Maybe we didn't all have to go through this. Maybe you would have realized that the maid of honor thing would have set her off. Right. Yeah. Or maybe she's not actually getting her Ph.D. in a year and half. Maybe she's just a bad therapist.

Well, we'd have Wesley's picket nits, but he's disappeared. from the Zoom. He's, he's having a lot of technical difficulties. If the listeners are wondering where he's been, he's been inundated by some electricity stuff. So hopefully he'll be back by the end of this. Amanda,

could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? No, because you need the containment of the wedding. That's, well, and also, I don't know if I want to spend 10 hours with these people. I absolutely don't want to spend 10 hours at this wedding or these people. Would you want to go to this wedding at all?

Oh, I think this would have been. an amazing wedding. Okay, me too. Been like, oh my God, Kimmy's coming? Yeah. This is going to be off the hook. I would very happily be an extra at this wedding, even though I, you know, not clear on the past hors d'oeuvres, not clear on the beverage situation. But yeah, I would absolutely go for the spectacle.

Probably unanswerable questions. I think we had everything. Mm-hmm. Oh, well, how long do Rachel and Sydney stay married? Oh, interesting. I feel like they're together. I think that thing's happening. Yeah, I think that.

I thought they had a good relationship. I like the scene when they're by themselves in the dark room. And I don't know. I just felt like that was like a, I was sold. And then the Anne Hathaway character comes in and then the friend comes in. Yeah, that is a nice scene. But again, I mean, Rachel is not, she tries. She's ultimately a sister.

But she's a little self-involved throughout this movie. She's like throwing a little bit of a tantrum sometimes. And I'm like, listen, ma'am, you created this problem. you know, I don't know. I think you're probably right, but I could also see it being like seven years and then like an amicable, we're going to continue to co-parent

in a supportive way and we're so grateful for this child that's been brought into our life. You know what I'm talking about. I think this would be a good big picture special podcast. How long did these couples stay married? Just like, just go through 20 of them. Can we convince Sean to do this?

I want to come on. Okay, sure. Don't remember Rooney and Cameron Diaz And my friend's best wedding Like definitely didn't last Under two years Under two years Yeah I would have said

Over under's two and a half years I don't think they have a child No She doesn't want to be going to all like the You know minor league baseball locations That might even get an old That would be a good one Did this marriage get an old?

That would have been These two I think stay together Okay Oh that's nice That's beautiful I think Kimmy's probably married Four to five times I'd yeah whether she actually even bothers getting married is the question also but there there's probably a rotating honestly if she does get married I think that's like forward growth for Kimmy so

what piece of memorability would you want from this movie I wouldn't want anything from this movie but I think the the collector's item would be the Ethan plate right that's so messed up though I know it is but it's like it's kind of a I don't know what else you would take from this movie that would even let people know that you had something from this movie. I guess you could say like the something from Anne Hathaway's bridesmaid's dress. I don't know. No, yeah. I like.

It's a weird one. There's some good wallpaper in the living room. You'll never let me actually have the houses in these movies, even though I would absolutely take this house. But so like the living room wallpaper, as they're all just like hurling insults at each other, I was like, oh, that's pretty nice. I would have that. Do you notice Deborah Winger's house and that when she goes to the mom's house,

it's got that old school 70s Connecticut? Like that weird fake stone in the living room, which we haven't seen that much. All right. Who won the movie? Who do you have? In Hathaway, right? I'm going to get Wesley, who's profusely apologizing on text. I'm going to get him to win as well.

It has to be Hathaway. I don't know who else would even be a nominee for this. I mean, Rosemary DeWitt is, I think, underappreciated in this movie and should have been nominated and should have gotten more acclaim for it, but she was not nominated because Wesley's friend, Amy Adams, had to take the spot. I'm ready about Amy Adams.

Yeah, I'm with you. But it's unfair that Wesley's not here to defend himself. She's fine. She's, you know, could she be Matthew Stafford on the Rams? I don't think so. It's been a really tough run the last few years. So a lot of really poor choices. But yeah, I think this is Anne Hathaway

successfully trying to do something different than the Devil Wars product. a, you know, mainstream rom-com-esque movie that she's doing and doing it well. I have a controversial text from Wesley just now. Okay. He thinks Rosemary DeWitt won the movie. Well, I'm open to it. She's really good, but like what comes of it, you know?

Right. I mean, you could give Apex Mountain. I guess it is also Rosemary DeWitt's Apex Mountain, though. You know who she's married to in real life? The guy from office base. What's his name? Ron Livingston. Yeah. Yeah. What a couple. The guy who broke up with Carrie with a post-it note.

Yeah. Jack Berger. All right. So we have two in Hathways, one, Rosemary DeWitt. So we are now, oh, Wesley's back. Rosemary DeWitt wins. You're back just in time right as we're wrapping up. So you have Rosemary DeWitt as the winner? I'm going to say Rosemary DeWitt is our winner. I'm sorry. Like, I mean, she comes out of nowhere. I had never seen this woman before. As you? I think she had been on a season of Mad Men before this. Right.

I remember her as one of Don Draper's love interests on Mad Men and liking her and that, but not really know anything else. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think she went to the movie. That's my vote. Okay. I mean, I think that she should have won the movie. Again, as we slandered you and Amy Adams while you were gone, I'm sorry.

Yeah, we took a couple of Amy Adams. Since your pal, Amy Adams took the nomination. she can't really win. Yeah, it's tough. She just grows Wesley. As soon as I say, Amy Adams, it's like,

Wesley freezes again. This is great. All right, we're going to wrap it up. This podcast was produced by Craig Horleback. Oh, Wesley's back. This podcast was produced

by Craig Horleback as always. Wesley, we can hear you on still processing. Hopefully, um, hopefully with a fast Wi-Fi. I'm back in the studio. So yes,

I'm recording to you guys, I'm recording with you guys at home, but yeah. And then our girl, Amanda, this will be her last time on the rewatchables for a while. Yeah, well. She's going to be having a very active 2022. Good luck from the rewatchables family. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to listen at home as a fan while I rewatch movies at 3 a.m. I hope it is extremely functional, unlike everything that's happening on F-Dup family, February here in the rewatchables. Thank you, Bill. Back next week with Parenthood, the Ron Hap. The Ron Howard, Van Lathen's favorite Ron Howard movie is going to make the case. I think it's my favorite Ron Howard movie too.

Yeah. So there you go. That's next week. Thanks for coming on.