The Rewatchables - ‘Rain Man’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey got the rose bushes, they definitely got the rose bushes. They rewatch ‘Rain Man,’ the 1989 Academy Award winner for Best Picture starring Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Fantasy football is back, and you don't want your team to suck. My favorite fantasy football punishment I've ever heard is the last place guy had to spend 24 hours in a waffle house, and every waffle he ate was one hour off of his count. I want numbers. How many did he end up eating? 12 waffles and 12 hours. I'm Danny Heifitz. I'm Danny Kelly. And I'm Craig Horlebeck.

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Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. The rewatchables is brought to you by a fan dual sports book as well as The Ringer and The Ringer.com. A wonderful website. You can hear Sean Fantasy on the big picture. You can hear Chris Ryan on the watch. He's still cranking it out as well as the answer on the Ringer NBA show on Fridays. Coming up.

Did you fart, Ray? Did you fucking fart? Rain Man is next. Nominated for eight Oscars, Rain Man. Of course, I'm an excellent driver. Rainer. Never touches steering wheel when I'm driving. Do you hear me?

Yeah. Do you hear me? I don't have my underwear. What? Dustin Hoffman, Tom Cruise, Rain Man, from the director of Good Morning, Vietnam. All right, Chris Ryan is here. Sean Fantasy is here.

We did a couple of recent movies recently. We did Super Bad in Argos, so it's time to go backwards. What better choice than Rain Man, which is on Netflix right now. It is just the definition of a rewatchable movie with a ton of rewatchable scenes. It was also incredibly successful.

I'm going to start here. I'm older than you guys. The most important actors, when I became a true movie fan, which was somewhere in the mid-80s, when I wasn't just watching movies but really started to think about how everything related to each other, choices, stars made, directors, that's probably as I'm heading to college. The four most important actors, as the first time I'm like, who really matters here? It was Nicholson, De Niro, Pacino, and Hoffman. Those were the four.

And then there was the Newman Redford Eastwood group where it was like those guys are massive stars. Elder statesmen. Yeah, they've been around. Maybe their best work might be behind them, I'm not sure. And then there was Brando kind of hovering over everything. And those were the eight. I bring this up because this was Hoffman,

became with Rain Man, the first guy and the only guy, to have top billing in a movie that won three different movies I won Best Picture Oscars. Midnight Cowboy, Kramer versus Kramer, Rain Man, and they're all basically 10 years apart. I feel like he's slipped the most historically out of everyone in that Nicholson Drenner-Puccino group. Fantasy, why is that? Well, I noticed something when I was reading about him to prepare for this, which is that he's been nominated for seven Academy Awards, and all seven are for best actor. And that's unusual for an actor with his pedigree.

with his history because those guys tend to transition very elegantly, especially someone who looks and acts like Dustin Hoffman, into character work. And then in their character work, they end up getting that late season best supporting actor kind of thing. And he has done some of those parts, but they have not hit in quite the same way that, say, a Jack Nicholson might, the way that he could just drop into a few good men in the 90s. And then you were like, boom, I will never forget Jack Nicholson. So even though he's been in stuff like, I think he was in Meet the Parents and he's been in some comedies over the years. He's been in some No Bomb Back movies. He just hasn't had the same 2000s that I think those guys have had. What do you think, Chris? I think he's also,

I mean, by all accounts, like a difficult actor to work with, right? Like he's a very exacting, very demanding actor. And if you're kind of going to just use somebody for a little role or a smaller role, it's like, is it worth it? Is it worth the, is it worth the, is it worth the, trouble of arguing about the script and like going over these things and like coming up with motivations for every little thing when you're like, hey man, I just need you to come in off the bench and just sink this and then count your money and go home. We don't have to argue about this scene or that scene. So he's like Sean. You're saying. Get in and get out. It's really fascinating to look at this. This is a guy who basically has 30 years of cultural relevance. So by the time

you're the period of time you're talking about, he still goes on. to be in Dick Tracy and Hook and Billy Bathgate, which at least when I was young, were like the big premiere magazine, like, I can't wait for this movie to come out, even if they had very, like, varying returns. But you have to really sort of stand back in awe. When you start with the graduate in 67 and you look at the 70s he had, and then in the 80s, he is essentially a movie star. You know, he's like a big, big, like leading man movie star in the 80s, but maybe he was a product of his time, which is what I think a lot of this podcast is going to be about is how they just don't make them like this anymore.

I went back, as you know, I bought up the first like five years of premiere magazines, figuring they would come in handy from time to time on the rewatchables. And it's this amazing era. It's kind of the last era of the old school profiles where there's a lot of quotes in there. Like, wow, can't believe they went there or can't believe he said that. So they wrote for Rain Man because Rain Man came out, I think, in December of 88 as an Oscar movie. And it's a loaded year, which we'll get into later.

And then in the February issue, they do with Big Hoffman profile. And the theme of the profile is basically, is this guy too big of an asshole? Is this affected him in ways that it doesn't affect every other actor? And it basically litigates all the issues he had in the 80s because there's one section where it's like, all right, so he goes just his IMDB for the people listening, the graduate, which is one of the iconic 60 movies we had, Midnight Cowboy, which he splits the Oscar vote with John. Boy, and then John Wayne runs for True Grit, which is an incredible Oscar travesty. But, you know, you go through the 70s, all the classics, we did all the president's men, Marathon Man will probably do at some point. Kramer versus Kramer, we haven't done yet.

Tutsi, which is an amazing movie and a legendary behind the scenes kind of battle mess, all that stuff. And then he basically doesn't work for five years. He does a TV movie. He was doing Death of a Salesman, right? Yeah, Death of a Salesman on TV, and then does Ishtar in 87, which bombs. and is a fantastic bomb. It's actually probably a little underrated now as a movie.

It's not as bad as like Bonfire or the Vanity, some of the other ones. But he kind of needed Rain Man. But in that premiere thing, they're talking about he was almost in the yellow jersey with Michael Chabino, which was a Tour de France movie in 1984. He was almost in a movie called The Ditto List. He was almost in Not a Penny More, Not a Penny Less. He was almost in Random Hearts, which is about an Air Florida disaster.

He was almost in an Elmore Leonard novel called LaBrava. He almost did a Harry Truman biopic. He almost did a movie called Diamonds. I don't even know what it is. He almost did a movie called 1968 with Taylor Hackford. And then he committed to Dead Poets Society and it didn't happen. So this is in six years and the recurring theme over and over again is like, this guy's a huge fucking pain in the ass.

He commits to a project. Now you have to litigate it with him. Who's the director? What's the script going to be? What is his character? and what's interesting, Sean, he's kind of like the guy in Tootsie. It seems like that was actually him, except he's an A-plus Lister, and the guy in Tootsie was a struggling actor, right?

Yeah, I mean, he's like a product of the post-Brando generation of guys, right? Where he's just really meticulous, really specific, probably incredibly abrasive and difficult to deal with on a day-to-day basis, but also very powerful. And I guess picky. It sounds like he was pretty picky, even though if you look through the 90s, maybe he looks a little bit less picky after he wins his second Oscar. Some of those movies are not very good. But I don't know. He has a difficult to define quality that only could have come out of that period of Hollywood.

Because he's not conventionally handsome. He has this kind of like nebishy awkward sensibility. And yet, he feels right in the middle of these movies in the late 70s and in the late 80s. He just, it feels, maybe it's just because I was born and he just felt like a part of the cultural wallpaper. But seeing Dustin Hoffman in a movie, even a movie that like does not have a huge cultural reputation these days, like hero. You know, that was like a, at the time seemed like a big deal. Yeah. And now there's not really much conversation about a movie like hero.

But you were just like, well, yeah, Dustin Hoffman is as viable as, as Tom Cruise is. He's as cool and as relevant and as interesting as Tom Cruise. You might look back at that now and see that, like, that might seem kind of crazy. but back then it made sense. He kind of, the person who I often think about in tandem with Hoffman is Daniel Day Lewis, because I think that there's a world in which Daniel Day Lewis is more prolific, but has a lot of misses. And I wonder whether or not if Daniel Day Lewis's work ethic applied to more movies

would create more weird failures, you know, like more like, oh, he tried to, you know, learn how to play basketball left-handed so that he could play, you know, he could be the coach. Is that in the Ben Simmons story? No, but just like, I know, seriously. But like, Hoffman, I think, bestows any movie he's in with a level of credibility. And you're just like, okay, I got to check this out for the performance, because I just need to see what Hoffman does. And if he's chosen to do this movie, chances are it's going to be really important for the rest of the year and that there's going to be some sort of significant acting going on in this movie. And, you know, he's, he's somebody that is so,

you can tell that there's so much computing going on, like, behind the eyes. Like, he's just, like, this intellectual dynamo when he's acting. And it's, it's a kind of performance that I don't really think that there's, like, a corollary now. Like, I don't think, if you were trying to think of, like, who is today's Dustin Hoffman? I guess that's sort of a question about what happened to the movies in general. But there isn't really somebody who is, like, like relentlessly intellectual, like maybe, I kind of feel like Downey sometimes is like that, but Downy has been in Iron Man. Downy and Zodiac is a good example of like, that would have been a great Hoffman part.

Exactly, right. I think the Deplas brothers have been trying to do Dustin Hoffman for 20 years and probably falling short. What Chris is talking about is a stamp of approval thing that I think was so important to me growing up where it felt like if Nicholson, De Niro, Prichino, or Hoffman did a movie there was a weight to it that mattered. And Brando had this too. I think Redford had it for a while,

and then he really started, he kind of went off the wagon in the 80s and started making legal legales was kind of the end of it for him where it's like, all right, you're going to start doing this stuff. And Newman really protected it for a while. I think he has the best track record.

Yeah, he does. It was like if he made a movie, Eastwood had it, and then somewhere in the 80s just started cranking them out year after year, and then all of a sudden he's making the rookie with Charlie Sheen. That one's not good. Clint's cashing him in.

But Hoffman really did have this. And Sean mentioned Hero. Hero's a bad movie. But the fact that Hoffman was in it was like, I'm going to give this a chance. Hoffman's in it. And that's a really hard place to be. So you think about the guys now. And really it's like Daniel DeLewis might be the only one who still has that.

Where even people like Brad Pitt, who I think have made some really good choices, he was in some fucking stinkers. Like those movies he made with Angelina were bad. You know, and I think it's just hard to find those. I think Leo has the, you know, he almost never. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Leo's good. He almost never misses.

He's one of the very, very few people. But, I mean, Hoffman went on to miss a lot too. You know, that's the thing. It's impossible to keep a steady streak of no L's. And he really, but I mean, in the 2000s, he's vanished, really. He's done a bunch of Kung Fu Panda voiceover work and he's done some supporting parts. But it's got to be the asshole thing. So this premiere thing, this, the piece was long.

This was like an 8,000 word piece. There's one section. I'm just going to read it to you guys. This is Peter Biscan writing this. What about the rumor that he uses people, sucks them dry and discards them, that he's ruthless? Hoffman seems preternaturally sensitive on this issue.

In 1979, the New York Times, an otherwise glowing story mentioned that three years after spending several intense months with the Washington Post reporter in preparation for his wrong all the president's men, Hoffman could not remember the reporter's name. after reading the story, Hoffman told the Times writer he was physically sick over it.

Hoffman complains to me that in New York magazine, Marie Brenner wrote that he has walked past screenwriters who have written movies for him without recognizing them. The article appeared five years ago. He's also upset about a profile of him in GQ. Quote, I'm shell-shocked, he says. The guy says I wear my shirt on button to my navel. He's thinking of Robert Goulet.

I don't do that. You never get used to it. They never write about my work. I didn't do anything bad to that guy. they hate you going in because you're successful rich. It's so hard for people to imagine being a movie star, but you feel the way anyone else would, when the shit gets kicked out of you,

it's the whole pieces like that. And you read and you're like, oh, so you are an asshole. Like he kind of can't hide it. Yeah, but you know what? And that's the recurring theme with them. There's also, that was a different time period for that kind of journalism

and the relationship between media and stars where stars did let you in. Yes. And like they would let you, like, in those profiles are like, Peter Biscan probably spent like a week with Dustin Hoffman. Oh yeah.

I mean, like, it's not like, I got 25 minutes on the phone with this person or we had an hour long interview while he was also getting his photo taken for the magazine and we discussed a pre-agreed upon set of topics with the publicist. They would just like be like, I'm at Dustin

Hoffman's house and he's had two drinks and now he's really unloading about a GQ profile from a year ago that hurt his feelings. I mean, they would never let that get past the goalie now. Yeah. Well, and with reason probably because you could go, there's some good ones. Like Premier had

some, GQ and Esquire had some. People magazine weirdly had a lot of good ones in the pop culture universe in the late 70s, early 80s, stuff like that. But there's one other piece in here. So this is how he's picking Rain Man

when he decides he wants to do it. And he meets with the writer and Martin Breast, there's like multiple screenwriters and directors attached to this. And Moro said the meeting lasted three hours. Midway through Dustin's scene and relaxed, began regaling us with own tales of working in a mental institution. Suddenly he took over, stood up, started doing these characters from his past.

Every hour in the restaurant was on him, I was thrilled. All I could see were bright lights for Rain Man on the way out to the parking lot. Dustin said he would do the picture. He said, at the end of my career, I'm going to be remembered for two roles. Ratso, Rizzo, and Rain Man. He wanted to start immediately. He didn't want this to be one of those. pictures that got all screwed up because that was his backstory. I would argue the Kramer from Kramer

versus Kramer should be in there too. And the graduate guy actually because he's been remembered for more than that. Absolutely. Benjamin Braddock to me is the signature part for him. But it's funny that it plays out this way because all those parts in the 60s and 70s that made him so famous, the graduate, Midnight Cowboy, Little Big Man, Straw Dogs, Popillon, Lenny, all the president's men, all the way through Marathon Man, Kramer versus Kramer, all of these characters. almost none of them are sympathetic. Almost all of them have these huge problems or their assholes or their complicated figures, and that's obviously a hallmark of that period of Hollywood filmmaking.

Rain Man is one of the first times in a 20-plus-year career at this point where you have total empathy for the character that Dustin Hoffman is playing. It's not surprising that he won an Oscar for it because it almost feels like he finally gave the audience a chance to love him. You know, Rats O Rizzo, he's a damaged, guy who does bad stuff. And even in precedence, which is like the movie star turn,

you know, right? Like, Redford's the movie star in that movie. Carl Bernstein's character is the one who's like doorstepping people and going, cutting corners and smoking in elevators. Yeah. I mean, he's the, he's the foil to make Redford look that much more waspy and beautiful and, and like straight and narrow.

Well, there's not to step on. casting what ifs, but Ovitz, Michael Ovitz is at like the peak of his powers at this point. And he sends Hoffman the script. He's the one who sends Hoffman the script. He's thinking Hoffman's going to play Cruz, the Cruz part.

And then Hoffman reads it. And he's like, no, no, I actually like this part, which leads to the Tom Cruise piece, Tom Cruise piece of this as well. Do we think we hit Hoffman hard enough though? Because I thought that was an amazing stat that he's the only guy who had top billing

for three best picture Oscar movies. I would have thought multiple people had done that. Like if we were talking about this in like NBA terms, you'd be like, wow, this guy was the best player on three different NBA finals teams. That's something. So he's Kauai Leonard? Yeah, or what Kauai Leonard maybe was trying to achieve.

But I'm trying to think what movies he didn't make that I probably would have liked. Like, could you've seen him in The Godfather? I think it would have been weird to have him in there, right? If he was Michael? Maybe. He just doesn't, I don't think that would have worked. Oh, he could have been Fredo, though.

He could have been a great Frado. Could have been a good Fredo. You're right. I think the other thing, too, is that for many, many years, this movie was the last movie to be the number one grossing box office movie that also won best picture. And that's also... That's a Titanic, yeah. And that's a testament to just how unusual his version of stardom was and the kind of

period of time that he kind of came up in through the late 60s, until the late 80s when he was kind of at the peak of his powers. But I don't know. I mean, it's also some of it is happenstance. Like some of it is just luck that like Midnight Cowboy winning Best Picture is still one of the craziest things that's ever happened. It's still inexplicable to me. That movie won a best picture. Yeah. So they bring in Cruz and this is another 80s thing where they kind of learn from some stuff that happened in the 70s. All the President's Men is a good example of which is get two giant stars. We have a good project. Let's get two giant stars. Starting in the mid-80s, this becomes

a way they really start trying to get movies made. And Cruz was involved with the color money, which we're doing later this year on this podcast because it's an anniversary coming up. And he works with Newman, and Cruz now moves into this stage where he's like, I want to work with great actors, great directors. He teams up with Hoffman. This is a big deal. Cruz was in that kind of mid-2000s LeBron stage still. What they don't realize when they're making Rain Man is that he has already made cocktail, which was just seemed like it was a one-man show, all right, we'll release this, try to make some money on it.

And six months before, Rain Man comes out, cocktail becomes like a borderline summer phenomenon. Wasn't a great movie. We did that one on the rewatchables as well. And Cruz kind of ascends to A-plus. I mean, he's already probably there with Top Gun, but we hadn't really seen him just. be able to carry kind of a bad team, which he does. So now it feels like, holy shit, Cruz and Hoffman are in a movie.

And everybody had to see it. And then it turned out to be awesome. I remember seeing this one in the theater when they touch heads at the end, which was really emotional and still is emotional. But the theater is like people were like fucking sobbing, you know. And they just hit it out of the park. It's this rare time where let's get two giant stars and the movie will be good. We got a great director.

the story's good. Everybody went to see it, and it won all the awards. That doesn't happen. My sense of things was that they really wanted to team up to. I don't know if that's actually true, but it seemed like they were really passionate

about working together and making this happen. And it's funny because Cruz, similarly, a lot of those early parts in his career in the 80s, he's playing these kind of like impetuous, unlikable kind of, you know, wannabe superhero type guys. And in this one,

it's like almost like a passing of the torch. It's almost like Dustin Hoffman is like, Okay, you be the dick who learned something at the end of the film. You know, that's totally the mold of this movie. Yeah, you know, there's also, I think the hallmark of this movie is, it's relative lack of sentimentality compared to the way it would have been done in years after. I mean, if you sort of draw the through line between this up to Forrest Gump, you know, like several years later, like the amount of like kind of Hollywood that they

slather these kinds of movies, like these sort of self-realizing. epics on. They just make it so, so sappy after a while. So it's like pretty amazing that the person who would be the biggest movie star in the world is like, I will ostensibly take a backseat to Dustin Hoffman and play a pretty irredeemable person until the very last two minutes of the movie, essentially. And even in that last scene is still trying to keep to keep Raymond, you know? This is in the running for my favorite cruise performance. He's incredible in this. I think that he's obviously always been such a savvy actor,

but I think it's almost like it was, it's culminating in this moment where we talk about how this movie actually doesn't work without him. Obviously what Dustin Hoffman does is incredible, but that like that second seat, if you don't, if you're not riding with that character, if you're not waiting for that character to have that moment at the end,

if you're not waiting for that kind of desperation that he has in his voice when he's talking to Barry Levinson when they're doing the evaluation at the end of the movie, if you're not with him on that, the movie falls apart. And as incredible as Hoffman is, as consistent as he is, as empathetic as he is, it's really Cruz's movie, in my opinion. That was a big Goldman take, and we're going to be litigating it at the end of when we do who won the movie, because I think Cruz's part is weirdly harder than Hoffman's part. You know, Bill, you mentioned seeing it in the theater,

and it seems like if you look at the week-by-week box office for this, it really was a word-of-mouth movie, and it really is a product of a time when movies would get a little bit of a longer runway in the theater and have a chance to kind of develop a reputation while still in theaters. Because I don't think that this movie made a ton of money its opening weekend. I think it was that first weekend of people

then told all of their friends, you've got to see Rain Man. Well, there was also, I couldn't believe what a murderer's row December 88 was. It was released right after Die Hard Twins and Who Framed Roger Rabbit. It was released right before Tim Burton's Batman movie.

and right before the sequel is to Lethal Weapon and Back to the Future in Ghostbusters and somehow made more money than any movie in 1988. I mean, it was released at the tail end of 88, but this movie crashed for the reasons Chris just said, you could have the slow burn drama back then. Now it would all depend on basically that first weekend. I mean, now probably this is, I'm guessing, a Netflix movie.

I don't even know if this is in the theaters, right? Who's making dramas like this with two big stars? doing this conventionally. Well, there's, I can't imagine. It's out of fashion to make a movie about someone with a disability or, or something along those lines. Like, that's, that was such a huge part of this wave of Hollywood movie making. There were so many films about people who were terminally ill or who were battling through something in their life and actors kind of transforming themselves. That was such a hot

awakening, sense of a woman. Oh, I have all of them here. Yeah, I mean, there's I had this in Woods Age the worst. We could start this now, but you had, you know, Forrest Gump obviously was another huge success. But you also had the regarding Henry. Harrison Ford has to get shot in the head to become a good person.

You have Nell with Jody Foster where she's like, No, no, no, no, the bottom game. He's speaking some weird language they made up. Sent of a woman. I AMCAM was when it really goes off the rails. It goes off the rails in the late 90s with I AMCAM and at first sight

with our guy, Val Kilmer, where he's a blind guy who falls in love with Miris Servino, but yeah. And the running joke by the time we got to the early 90s was like, this is how you get an Oscar nomination. Do some sort of disability, something's wrong with you, special needs, whatever it is. De Niro and Awakening's, which I thought,

I got to say, I thought in the moment, Awakening's was bad. That's a movie that has no cultural cachet or legs at all, but got nominated for multiple Oscars and really took Oscar spots away. from better movies. It's frustrating and look back and watch, but this work. This worked for years and years, which is why

they kept doing it. I mean, there are tons of examples, and some of them are incredible, and some of them have not aged well. You know, the Fisher King is still a great movie. What's Eating Gilbert Grape is still a great movie. There are examples that are really compelling, and then there are others that feel My Left Foot. Yeah, my Left Foot, another great one. Amazing.

But you can always, you always know the intention behind it. You always know that there is a very particular showcase for someone to get an Oscar. And the thing is, and Chrissy point this out with the box office, right? Like this movie built and built and built and built. It's like second or third highest weekend

over a course of like 15 or 16 weekends is the weekend after the Oscars when it wins the best picture. It's a time when a movie could have been out for three months and then the Oscars would air and then the box office would shoot up again. And that still happens occasionally now, but it was much more,

happened much more often. And it's a big reason why movies were released in December was because of its ability to give these movies this long shelf life. So, I mean, those kinds of showcase movies, they don't happen as much anymore. Also, just because I think there's like a sense that they're culturally insensitive, you know, that there's, we haven't quite sorted out now how to portray people with disabilities by letting people who don't have those disabilities show up on camera. It's a very, um, naughty subject.

It was a naughty subject back then. Did you guys get a chance to check out Pauline Kale's review of this movie? No, give us the highlights. She really let the chopper sing, but, Oh, no. But it was essentially one of her points is like, I just don't understand why an autistic person didn't play this role. Like this entire movie is built, is like basically like to make Dustin Hoffman feel good about himself from playing this part.

And it's like a real pan. I mean, I guess that's late period, Pauline or whatever, but she really gets after it. She was as feisty as my mom after like four chardonnese, near the tail end there. They really, really dropping swords left and right. Yeah, there's a great line in that review that's like something along the lines of,

you know, of course it's making people cry. It's wet kitsch. That's what she described it as wet kitsch, which is a dagger. But on the other hand, it's like, even now you watch this movie, it is emotionally affecting. It's hard not to get wrapped up

in everything that they do in the movie. It's also like our idea of what sentimental is is completely perverted now because this movie is way closer to like the last detail that it is. To like, you know, I am Sam or something. But like it gets, once you ran it through, you know,

so many iterations of probably like studios executives being like, no, there needs to be a moment where Charlie realizes he's wrong and does something amazing to correct what he's done. You know, that wouldn't have happened. This movie is a notes meetings triumph. When you think about how many directors and screenwriters they went through, It was in double figures if you combine the two numbers. And then fundamentally just trying to figure out what was the tension between these two brothers.

And then apparently by all the research, Hoffman was the one that unlocked it. He was basically like the tension has to be that Cruz cannot reach this guy. And he's probably never going to be able to reach this guy. And that's what the tension is as they go on this road trip. And once they had that, the movie kind of took off. But it took three years to get there. Isn't it amazing when movies like that when Best Screenplay, too? The idea of almost all of Ray's dialogue being stuff that Dustin Hoffman observed someone else saying and then put in the movie and then that is credited to two different screenwriters who wrote two different scripts in a movie. It's fascinating.

I want to talk about the Oscars, but we'll take a quick break here. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns a unlawful. unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play.

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vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9-9 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Okay, so one of the reasons we're doing, Rain Man, highest grossing film released in 88, nominated for eight Oscars. It won Best Picture, Best Original Screenplay, Best Director and Best Actor. Hell yeah. That's not a long list of movies that did that. Weird, you. year 88. So an incredible year of like entertaining movies, but when we're talking about the Oscars, it gets a little goofy. And I don't know if we've talked about it before. Best picture, Rain Man wins. The other four nominations were accidental tourists, dangerous liaisons, Mississippi burning and working girl. It's insane. I think you might knock out everything but

dangerous liaisons out of that if you did it again. I like working girl. You think that would still get it? Well, I think it's... Amanda would say yes. It's less likely that it would get it now because movies like that are not recognized. You know, this is the Fish Called Wanda Year. This is the big year. It's a year where most of the best movies

were these kind of like comedy, dromedies. And the idea of... You got diehard this year? Diehard, yeah. But like Mississippi Burning, accidental tourists. These are movies like nobody cares about it anymore. I don't know if we cared about accidental tourists even then. Best director Levinson wins.

He beat the directors from Fish Called Wanda. Last Temptation of Christ, Corsese. Marty. Mississippi Burning and Working Girl, which was Mike Nichols. Best actor, Hoffman wins, beats his old roommate, Gene Hackman. We'll talk about that later. Tom Hanks and Big. Eddie James Almost and stand and deliver.

And then Max von Saito and Pele of the Conqueror. I think I remember in a past rewatchables, maybe it was Bruce Willis and Diehard. We came up with somebody who clearly should have been the first. fifth best actor for this in 88, and it was not Max von Saito, who should have been nominated as the good Nazi victory, which we talked about a complete ago. The best supporting actor, Cruz was not eligible. Now, I would argue Cruz probably, I think both of the guys should have been nominated. And you could argue Cruz is better in the movie than Hoffman is. But Cruz gets

shut out because he's in it too much to get a supporting actor. But honestly, this is probably, This part's the closest he was going to come to, I think, winning an Oscar, other than Magnolia, right? Born on the 4th, right? Eh, some bad wigs, beards, over-act... There's a lot of overacting in that movie. I don't know. That's not my favorite cruise performance. You like a Morcia?

I think that's, like, really some of the best work he's ever done. Because it's him... It is very, very big. It's a very big performance, but it's a story that I think is really worthy of him being that big. Like, what Rockovic goes through is really, really wild. I think that's a... amazing movie. But it is one of his few real chances. To me, it was always Jerry McGuire. Jerry McGuire was the kind of movie. It's actually quite crazy that he did not win for Jerry

McGuire because that is a crowd pleaser. It's a story about something. It's a story about family. It's a story about a guy who in almost every Tom Cruise movie, he starts out here. He's kind of a low life, goes on a journey, learn something important about that journey and then becomes a better man on the other side. Plus, it's entertaining. It's funny, et cetera. Yeah, his transformation in Jerry McGuire takes place so much earlier in the movie. Like, he's a good guy for so much more of Jerry McGuire compared to Rain Man, where he's like a good guy for the last scene, you know? Chris, are you ready to run back Jerry McGuire at some point?

We did that so early in the rewatchables. I don't even think we had the category. I don't even think we had the categories yet. I remember we spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how he got back from Arizona and time for the parents. For the book club? Yeah, the book club beating. So I was still going on at three of the morning.

but yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that. We should mention Barry Levinson, important piece of this. His 82 to 88, Diner, The Natural, Young Sherlock, Tin Men, Good Morning, Vietnam, Rain Man, just rips that off

in six years. It's pretty good. Incredible. Yeah, great run. And this movie is really, really, really well crafted. There's good music touches in it, and it just moves.

It feels more normal now than it did in 88. Like, it really felt advanced in 88. Some of the stuff he did, the way he used the soundtrack. You remember that 80s were cheap. You made a movie like this in the, you know, in the, you know, 1985, you're going to have the cheesy montage scene with like the

Pointer Sisters and it was just going to go sideways at least twice. And it just doesn't. I am, I want to put together a master supercut of all of the LA title credit sequences where it's just like a song playing as we see multiple shots of downtown Los Angeles and the smog. And then, you know, it's like for some reason it's like an eight minute title sequence where we're seeing. It would be like 28 minutes. Yeah, it's great. There's some good stuff like...

But I love the Iko Ico use in this. That part's great. There's that one part when it's really falling apart for Cruise and he's in the hotel room trying to figure out how to save it and it cuts and there's some cameras. And all of a sudden they're on the highway and it's like, do do do do do. It sounds a little like the ER soundtrack actually.

I always felt like the ER soundtrack ripped it off. But it's just there's a pace and a feel that this movie has that I think is one of the reasons that's so re-watchable. Hans Zimmer on the score. This is his first solo, big Hollywood score. Our guy, Hans. Our dude Hans.

25 million dollar budget made $355 million. That's astonishing. In 1988. Cruz wraps up 88. He had the number one movie of 88 and number nine. Cocktail. Cocktail was the number nine movie of 1988 of all movies released.

So two of the top ten, pretty impressive. Our guy, Raj. Is he like, you've changed it to Raj? Like, Raj. Well, now that we've done a podcast, now that we've done the Siskel and Iber podcast, I feel like we're closer than just Roger, now he's Raj. Roger Ebert, three and a half stars. Rain Man is so fascinating because it refuses to supply those questions with sentimental

but unrealistic answers. This is not a movie like Charlie in which there is a miracle cure. he really liked the stuff Cruz did in this movie as well. And then, um, do you guys, can I tell you what Pauline Kale's lead was for her review? Yeah, give it to us. Rain Man is Dustin Hoffman humping one note on a piano for two hours and 11 minutes. That's the first line. She wielded a dagger, man.

Unbelievable. And you want to know why Dustin Hoffman was so but-heard about the beating. Poor, poor Dusty. Goldman would put this this popped up in his books and essays a bunch of times he always used this as the example of you think this one person is the star of the movie but it was really the other guy and he was just really passionate about like the Dustin Hoffman part was easy I think the real movie people are like come on is it that's one note he's just doing it over and over again whereas Cruz is doing like Michael Kane said this a similar thing he was like Cruz

cruises the harder part. This is one of my favorite screen performances. Categories. Most rewatchable scene. Charlie hears about the will when they're reading it to disappointed. I got rose bushes, didn't I?

I got a used car. I'm sorry, son. I can see that you're disappointed. Disappointed. Why should I be disappointed? I got rose bushes, didn't I? I got a used car, didn't I? What's his name got?

What'd you call him the... Beneficiary. Right, right, beneficiary. He got $3 million. But he didn't get the rose bushes. I got the rose bushes. I definitely got the rose bushes. Charles. I definitely got the rose bushes.

I mean, those are rose bushes. There is no need to go. To what? To be upset? To be upset? If there is a hell, sir, my father's in it, and he is looking up right now, and he is laughing his ass off. If there was a hell, sir, my father's in it. He's looking up at me.

That one's good. I love, I'm going to combine Charlie meeting Raymond when Raymond goes. to the car, and then the second scene, which I absolutely love when he's touching his stuff. This is definitely not a weekend visit, Vern. He's getting anxious. It's okay, Ray. Vern. Oh, this is an unanswered visit, Vern.

Put it back. He's not to touch the books. We get to see his room, and he's got the uncut sheet, and all the different things, and Cruz is just wreaking havoc in it. That's a really well-written scene. The breakfast scene, the 246. toothpicks, but there's four left in the box. Hmm, what's this mean?

Save that for later. There's a lot more than a two two-tex room. 246 tall. You change. Ray, how many toothpicks are you? 250. Pretty close. Come on.

Let's go, Ray. 246. There's four left in the box. The combo of Ray and Charlie go to see the doctor, the explanatory scene, which is very 80s. I'm sentimental about it, even though they would never do it like that now. It goes right into the phone booth when he's calling, and Hoffman farts in the phone booth and Cruz.

Did you fart, Ray? Did you fart, right? You fucking fart. Did you fart? Did you fucking fart? How can you stand that? I don't mind it. How can you stand that? The bathtub scene, which is a little forced,

but really good and really well acted. And Hoffman said in the premiere magazine piece, Levinson and I just hit it off. There's a key scene where Tom finds out that I'm the rain man. We did the first take. Levinson said, that's it. Tom and I said, what? But we trusted him.

By that time, we'd seen the rushes pretty quick. So that was the first take that they pulled up that scene. And if you go back and you read some of the stuff with him and Tootsie, Hoffman was like a big rehearsal guy. Yeah. And Levinson was more of it. If we got it, we got it guys. so they somehow navigated that.

But the Tootsie stuff's really fun to reread. Four more scenes. The breakfast where the card counting scheme is hatched. I'll just say the last 45 minutes of this movie is my favorite part. From the moment he realizes he might be able to count cards with Raymond Babbitt, followed by going to Vegas, which we'll talk about later, whether that's the greatest Vegas sequence we've ever had in a movie. The Vegas Blackjack section.

Eat my own queen, Ray. There's Losson. there's lots of them lots and lots of them hold on here hold on here for a second I'm going to double down I have a lot of thoughts on that

coming up later is that the number one reason why you wanted to do this movie I kind of feel like that must be right because you just went to Vegas that and Hoffman Chris we wanted to talk Hoffman because we'd never really done it

two more Charlie lets Ray go to Walbrook and that whole scene and the head's touching and my main man Charlie and Barry Levinson being weirdly really good in that scene

and then the ending at the Amtrak this is really good I'll see you soon yeah one for bad two for good but two for good

yeah she's good stuff most rewatchable scene I'm going with Vegas I love the blackjack seven minutes unassailable it's definitely Vegas

Vegas it's yeah it's an instantly iconic movie scene. I wonder what movie stretch led to more people teenagers and in their 20s

deciding that they just had to go to Vegas because Swingers was like this too, right? And Swingers even references Raidman in Swingers, but you just watch that seven minutes and that's as good as Vegas is going to go for anyone and you're like, I just need to be part of that. The real Vegas,

you know, it's chain smoking and just the most impressive group of people you ever see and grinding away at tables for seven hours. This is like the Hollywood Vegas. It's great. For CR, it was when he saw leaving Las Vegas, and he was like, that's where I need to be. That's it.

He's just spend more time there. Perfect place for my chronic alcoholism. All right, so we're all going to Vegas because we can move on. We got to do, we got to hit that Vegas scene later. What's age the best? You mentioned Hans. The score. The music.

Music's great. Great 80s score, great use of Iko, Ico, and the two pieces that Hans Zimmer do are awesome. Chris, what are your Hans rankings right now? Wow, that's a big list. Gruber or Zimmer 1? Oh, in that sense? I thought you meant his best scores. Yeah, Gruber is pretty problematic.

I'm going to go Zimmer number one. Zimmer 1, okay. Probably the best action movie villain of all time, though. What about Hans Christian Anderson? Where is he? I was never a big consumer of his content. Oh, interesting. Never subscribed to his pod.

Morewood's age the best. Charlie Babbitt's 1983 Ferrari. Just really admire that one. 400 I. I like when he says when I was a kid, I always thought the Rain Man would save me. It's like he kind of filed that one away for later. It's like, hmm, a little foreshadowing.

I like asshole Cruz is age the best for me. where is the stuff like, he's like, shut up, he's answering a question from a half an hour ago. He's just such a dick. Yeah, when he's like, when Susanna's like, I don't want pepperoni, he's like, large pepperoni. He's such an asshole. There's different shades of Cruz being a dick, right?

Like in color money, he's like the cocky dick. Same thing with Top Gun to some degree or Days of Thunder. This is more he's just straight asshole, which I enjoyed. I have a quick question about the hotel scene. Because Bill, maybe you know this. better. But was there a time in American life where you could call room service and just kind of freestyle what you wanted that way where he's like, I want enough beer for two people and the closest thing you've got to tapioca pudding? Like if you do that today, they'd be like, sir, look at the

fucking QR code menu that you have. We have four things. And read it exactly back to me. Morewood stage the best, there's a weird Bonnie Hunt cameo. Speaking of Jerry McGuire, as the wager. It's like really young. Sally Diggs. This is a really hardcore Vegas note, but I don't know if you've kind of freeze on when they look out of the Caesar Suite for Old Vegas, the old Vegas trip.

There's like a holiday in across the street. Like none of the casinos are there. If you go to Vegas now and you look across the street from Caesars, it's like, I can't remember, I think like Venetian might be over there or whatever is on that side. there's like big giant

infrastructures. Back then, it's like you don't even know you're on the strip. I just enjoyed that. I think you see Barbary Coast, which is no longer there.

But Barbary Coast, I think is like the Cromwell now, but that's the first thing you see when they're looking out out of the... You were a big Barbary Coast guy, right?

Me? Yeah, spent a lot of time there in the 80s. The smoke alarm scene, I didn't put that in most rewatchable because it's so disturbing, but that seems really good.

It's just like... kind of harrowing, and that's when you realize how this is probably going to work out. Him getting stuck in traffic and the bathtub and the smoke alarm all three times, really good, like tension, anxiety building sequences. Yeah. The concept of an autistic savant in a movie TV setting, I think is age well, because we've seen people go back to it, where it's somebody like they just have this one talent that trumps everybody else

and you kind of have to try to unlock it. It's been a recurring thing. crash in the sex scene is it's fucking weird but it's it's it's really i can't believe they got away with it i almost it's also coming up in what's age the worst but i can't believe they wrote that in a script and we're like here's what's going to happen in scene 23 and then it actually kind of works it's just like the degree of difficulty was like a 9.9 right he just wanted to see what was on tv yeah yes Sean, your Valerie Galena thoughts, because I have her in what stage the best? Hey, Bill, for once. You're not going to back the truck over Valerie Galena.

Great in this. She's good. I mean, I don't know why she is no longer like a presence in American movies. She still appears in a lot of European movies, but, you know, the queen of hot shots. And she was in a couple of other American thrillers in the early 90s. And then she would just pack it up and went back to Italy, I guess. I don't know. She was in the portrait of a lady on fire. I don't know if you saw that one, Bill. She was very good in that movie. But she just has not been in a lot of American stuff.

She's great in this movie. Just think if Tarantino had cast her as Bruce Wilson's girlfriend in Pulp Fiction, that movie might have made it. Wow. Save it for the Pulp Pod is my take on that. Oh, my God. Another would say, these two are my favorite Wood's age the best. The hangover's parody of Rain Man.

Yeah. And now feels like the addendum to this movie where they just like, played all the same notes and it's really good. And then finally, my pick for what's aged the best, the Rain Man Suite, that's like a real thing that has aged beautifully and we'll go on for the rest of eternity as I'm in the Rain Man Suite or I'm winning so much money. They might give me the Rain Man Suite. It's just, that's going to live on forever, it feels like. We went to Vegas for Summer League, I want to say, three or four years ago. Yeah, like three years ago. Oh, they gave us the Rain Man Suite. And they gave us a suite. I don't know if it was the Rain Man Suite, but it sure felt

like it. Yeah. High ceilings, massive open space, multiple rooms. We did pods out of there and everything. And it was pretty crazy. I felt like we hit movie royalty. Yeah, massage chairs are usually a key to the Rain Man suite. The only other one I have for What's Age the Best is Cruise is 88, where the cocktail Rain Man and all of a sudden he's the biggest under 35 star in the world, then it's not close. I got to say, you're missing the biggest What's Age the Best. Let's hear it. Qantas. Still no crashes. Still no crashes.

That's a huge win for them. They still have never had a crash? They had some propeller crashes in the first part of the 20th century, like prop jets, but not since we've gotten commercial, baby. How many times have you flown Qantas, Chris? No, I've done Air New Zealand, but I've never done Qantas. I know one's Australia, one's New Zealand, but that's as close as I've gotten. What's age the worst?

we mentioned the Oscar Bate run of regarding Henry and all those movies. Just when you look at the totality of all those things, it's like, come on, everybody. Ray crashes the sex scene, also putting that here in what stage is the worst? That's just weird. It somehow works. I'm going to say probably one and a half too many. Lenny, I can't get to these cars? Can we talk a little bit about Charlie Babett's business?

Yeah. I want to, can we do this in unanswerable? questions or do you want to do this now? No, let's do it. Whatever you want. I just need to understand a little bit about the economics of this. I have a great spot for it later. Liddy, we got to get those things off the lot tomorrow. I don't know what's going on, but it's five minutes

too much. It's like, I think they just like fucking gave Oliver Stone an eight ball. And we're like, can you just write two scenes for us where this guy's importing Lamborghini? We just did a couple wide shots of a lot of expensive cars being kind of lifted that they probably got from Dunn's.

Simpson. Here's my pick for, well, no, I have two more. What's age the worst? The stigma of card counting, I feel like really starts in this movie. These guys are just playing cards. And I don't feel like the casino is turning on the overhead lake because they're up, you know, 72,000 on a Thursday night or something. I don't think they're winning enough money. If you're up 80 grand in 1988, what is that now? It's like 400K. I don't know. It didn't seem like they had enough chips in front of them.

I'm also dubious of any scene where somebody's winning and just a crowd gathers behind them. Crowds in Vegas do not gather behind random people winning at a table unless it's like Tiger Woods or Charles Barkley. It's just not happening. Never seen it. You would have to be betting a million dollars a hand on Blackjack to get a crowd behind you. You're not getting it doing one for bad, two for good. I'm sorry. Sean, any card counting thoughts?

well, it's not illegal. And so them being asked to leave after winning that amount of money, which is a large sum of money, but certainly not the largest sum of money than anybody's ever won in a casino at any given time. The likelihood of them being called into the manager's office for that just seems ridiculous.

I mean, it's usually much more in the millions range when things start to get a little hinky there. 100%. So that's weird. But otherwise, I don't know. So wait, it's not illegal, but it's looked down upon? Like, what's... They don't appreciate it, but you can count cards.

I mean, there's no... There's no rule, like law that says you can't count cards. You can't do it if it's like you have the buzzer in your wrist or something. Right. Yeah. And the casinos eventually, if you're just crushing them over the span of like six months, they'll figure out a way to get you the hell out of there. But one night thing, no.

Yeah. No way. But this is what's age the worst. And I think it cost him an Oscar nomination. Tom Cruise trying to smoke cigarettes. Jesus Christ. Thank you so much. It's the montage of him with cigarettes.

in this movie. Listen, if you guys, the weirdos out there who make YouTube clips, if you guys want to retweet from us from our rewatchables account, which I think has over 50K followers on it, if you really want to make a clip that we're going to retweet, do the

montage of cruise smoking in movies. He holds cigarettes like... It's offensive. I can't believe all the things that he was so great at learning, he learned how to fly a plane, he learned how to flip pool cues and, you know, play nine ball.

He learned how to drive a race car. All through the years, Tom Cruise, so good at learning things and smoked a cigarette like he was an idiot. He's obviously a chain smoker. Like,

he's a guy who's importing Lamborghinies in L.A. in the 80s. Yeah. So he smokes fucking cigarette. He's lighting the next cigarette as he's finishing the last cigarette. But he smokes like four cigarettes in this movie.

Always at a diner. Always as if he's holding like a tree stump in his hand. He's like, what is this thing in my hand? He's holding it like kind of, I can't even describe it. I can't even nobody intervene. Not smoke or smoke all the time.

Where's Hoffman? Hoffman's right there. He played Carl Bernstein. He smoked through the entire movie. He couldn't have given him advice. It's really, really annoying. It's one amazing how outraged you guys are about this. Also, he learned how to do a backhand spring for the firm.

We forget about that. It's incredible gymnastics work. Listen, One of my passions in life is bad smoking in movies or television shows. And Cruz is way up there. And it's clear that he never had a cigarette at any point in his life. And I don't even think he wanted to hold it. So he would hold it kind of sideways.

And like Chris said, you would see him in the diner. You'd always see him lighting it. He never smokes it. It's just kind of dangling. Anyway. His body is a temple. It's always been a temple. That's a huge thing for him.

So of course he doesn't out of smoke a cigarette. We're going to take a break and do casting win-ifs. Okay. CAA wanted Dustin Hoffman and Bill Murray to be the stars of this movie. With Hoffman playing Charlie

and Murray playing in. Murray goes on to make his rain man and what about Bob, right? I mean, it's pretty similar. It's obviously a different tone. Yeah, better lane for him. Yeah.

Probably. Paula Wagner, who is an agent at CAA, and this became a CAA of its package. package deal thing. They had Tom Cruise there. She eventually went to become his producing partner. She said, let's make Charlie the younger brother and we'll get Tom in it. And then it turns into this big thing of everybody's like, wait, what the fuck? He's like 20 years younger than Dustin Hoffman.

Maybe even, I don't even know how many 20 plus years. That's ridiculous. These guys could never be brothers. And then they're kind of like, ah, fuck it. And that's how played out. It is. We have it in nitpicks, I'll just do it now. I mean, it's ridiculous that they're supposed to be brothers. Well, I mean, it's like me and Chris, you know. Chris and I could be brothers. He's 20 years older than me. And, you know, we've been making it work ever since. Fair. Martin Bress, Spielberg and Sidney Pollock were all circling this film at various points. Sydney Pollock's funny because him and Hoffman like, legendarily despised each other in Thutsi. But he really was kind of involved in this movie for a little bit. And then the reason he's the connecting. He's the one who's like

gets Levinson to read it, and then Levinson's like, I'll do it. And then the reason Levinson actually acts in this movie is because our guy, J.T. Walsh, was supposed to be the psychiatrist and had some sort of conflict and couldn't do it. So Levinson had to step in last second. J.T. Walsh says J.T. Walsh, as Markinson. As Lieutenant Colonel Markinson? Markinson's a ghost. What if he was, what if he did this?

There is no Markinson. what if he did it as happy Kikindale from Blue Chips? We owe it to him. Yeah, we did Blue Chips before we had all the categories. That would have been hands down. Oh, my God. Mark Rofalo, whatever we call the award now thing. Best that guy, I kid,

the Joey Pants Award. There's a lot of nominees, but there's only one winner. It's the Blackjack dealer at Caesar's Palace. Yes, yes. Nick Mazzola, who also plays the war dealer in Vegas vacation and the dealer in casino and in real life he was a blackjack dealer. Amazing. That's amazing. What a great IMDB page for him. Yeah. You're like I'm in fucking Vegas vacation, Rayman and Casino. I love that Scorsese was like, we need a realistic dealer. Who is that guy in

Rain Man? Hey, get me that guy's name. Call him. Maybe he's available. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word. I mean, this is why we love Tom Cruise. Tom dials it up. Yeah. guy who's selling cars for him in that opening car scene, Lenny also is the nominee. But Cruz has a couple, he brings out the whole Tom Cruz overacting playbook, which is why we love him so much. The scene in the desert when he's just punching air and screaming and yelling, and it's just a lot of good

cruise. Him in the Missouri hotel room while they're waiting for the rain to stop. And he's just like ranting and making phone calls and just like can't get out of their room and goes and gets some fish sticks and cuts them in half. It's like, there, now it's eight. Four fish sticks. Huh? It's supposed to be eight fish. Eight? There's eight. Take a shower, right? It's great. The, uh, the Jed Nelson Award. What is, what is this a word again? Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Yeah. Sorry, I'm not as sharp as I used to be. Jed Nelson Award for, for the who seems like they're in a different movie.

I think that's Lenny in every scene. The whole car scene is just another bad 80s movie that's happening concurrently to the Rain Man movie, and I don't really know what's going on over there. The Dan Waiters is Valeria? Valeria or Valerie? I think it's Valeria. Valeria.

She eligible, or is she in the movie too much? I think she's in the movie too much. She's in the first half in every scene of the first. She's like the third lead. Yeah. All right. So our nominees are Main Man Vern.

He's good. Or the blackjack dealer. I'm very happy for you guys. Congratulations. What about Levinson? Or Levinson? That's who I had. Okay.

Berry Levinson's the winner. And then like knowing that he was kind of improving to get under Cruz's skin in that scene is amazing. Can we talk about Dr. Bruner right now though? Sure. What's Dr. Bruner's deal? Why is he so intent on getting Raymond? back. Because he made a promise to his father 20 years ago. Yeah, but why is he so loyal to this guy

Charlie's dad who, by all counts, was the biggest fucking asshole whoever lived? Doctors typically aren't just like, oh, this guy got kidnapped. I guess that's just a bad break for me. Usually they're like, they're pretty persistent in like, but he has this weird, like, dour moralizing going on with Charlie that it's like, what's this guy's fucking problem? Just like some, let it go. It's his brother. Just let it go. Yeah, it's weird. So you're pro-Charlie Babit kidnapping. That's where you're showing up. A million percent.

100 times. I totally agree. He got cut out of like a $3 million will. Chris, if you were kidnapped by your long-lost brother, I would say go with God to your brother. That's what I would say. Yeah, they're brothers. Recasting couch. I wanted more from Iris the Hooker.

I felt like that could have been a great one-seen part. I was thinking Marky Post, who's tragically just passed away, but was one of my favorite. one of my favorite 80s ladies. I thought that could have been a good marquee post. She got a little 80s hairdo, maybe a little mulety, but broke out a cocktail dress. I just thought Iris didn't get there. More from the actor or more from the scene?

I think the scene I thought that was a good scene for an actor, like a hot 80s actress who just was could have clicked with Cruz when Cruz comes over. He's like, oh, what's going on here? That was kind of a lost scene because they kind of saved money. But I would have gone Laura San Giacomo. Oh, even better. When are we doing that movie? By that movie, do you mean?

Sex Lise of Video Tate. Oh, sex lies of videotape? My mom's favorite movie ever. Would your mom do the pod? No. The one I was trying to see if she would do with us is the Big Chil, her favorite movie. Yeah. And she was like, no, I don't do podcasts.

She came on my 50th birthday pod. It's still one of the great episodes of your podcast. One of my favorite conversations I remember would you have. I try to tell her. It's not like she has a lot going on. Would she do it if Greenwald was on? She does like Greenwald. What if me, Chris, and Andy wrote a handwritten letter to her,

asking her to do the Big Chill with you? Maybe she'd do it with the three of you and not me for the Big Chill Pad. She has so many thoughts. It upsets her so deeply that Glenn Close lets Kevin Klein have sex with Mary Kay Place. It's like a 15-minute riff for her. Does she think it's because Glenn Close is still high on cocaine in that scene when she allows her? Half-ass internet research for Rain Man.

During filming, Hoffman and Cruz called this movie two schmucks in a car and constantly worried that it was going to work. All of the principal photography occurred during the Writers Guild Strike in 88. So they kind of wing the fight. final scene apparently because they didn't have writers on here. Do you think it works? Like do you really like because you mentioned that the one one for bad, two for good. That line is great. That's a great way to send it off.

But like do you feel it's a little surprising to me that it won best picture because it is a little bit unsatisfying at the end. You know, most of these movies, they would, they would have what Eber was talking about. They would have this kind of like sapy payoff where Raymond, you know, hugs Charlie and he's like, I'm staying with you, but they don't do that. Like, do you guys feel that it works better that way? I think I'm a bad person to ask because I in the 80s was just going back and forth on Amtrak between my mom and my dad's house. So I'm always going to be any sentimental Amtrak scene. I'm just, it's going to get me.

I think the card counting is supposed to be the climax and the Danumae of the movie and the thing that brings them so close. And it obviously saves Charlie's debatable business in the first place. But yeah, Sean, like it's just such a time capsule to see a movie like that where the ending is just. just like it's not really a victory, it's not really a defeat. You kind of in the back of your head, it was like, is Charlie really going to go visit this guy in two weeks? Did you really change? You know, I kind of like the ambiguity of it.

I think now if they made the ending, after the card counting, I think Raymond becomes some sort of Marvel superhero. Like there's some mass they pick up in the suite that gives him superpowers. And then he becomes this autistic superhero. If there was another, If there was another level to this, it would just be like, the last scene would be Raymond and Charlie, like, driving the Buick on the driveway of Walbrook. And it would be like, see, they're still, like, they're still buddies now. And, like, he goes and visits him.

And Charlie didn't immediately go back to Los Angeles to a crippling Coke addiction and being assassinated by Italian importers. Lenny. Lenny fucking kills Charlie Madden. Chris's notes were Lettie's bullet-ridden body is the last scene. Cruz comes back to a murder. Not every movie can be directed by Michael Mann. It turns out Valeria Galino is actually working for the Naples Mafia. Lenny's dad. We have 20 minutes to get out of town.

So when this movie appeared on airlines, they deleted all the airline accident scene was a goner. There was no sign of it except for Unquantis, where they left it in. Can you imagine a time in like American history where you could like be at the airport choosing the flight you wanted to get on? Instead of being like, hold on, I need to make an 11 hour phone call to this airline where they give me a $50 voucher. That was up to through the late 90s. I remember multiple times just going to the airport when I was dating somebody who didn't live in Boston and just being like last minute hopping on a plane. That really happened back then, not happening now. Hoffman thought three weeks in this movie was a disaster

and told Barry Levinson get Richard Dreyfus, get somebody, because this is the worst week of my life. I guess when we were talking about assholes, I guess Dreyfus, we probably should have mentioned it because I think he was kind of like Hoffman on steroids in the asshole department. It's funny that Hoffman's like actually punish Richard Dreyfus by putting it in this.

That's amazing. This role that I hate. This movie was originally written by Barry Morrow and Ronald Bass. Morrow created the character Raymond after meeting a real-life savant named Kim Peek. And they kind of went from there. And then I really liked the, I feel like we talked about this before,

but I want to do it again. So Hoffman beats Gene Hackman for Best Actor, Mississippi Burning. And if you go watch the Oscars, he goes and hugs Hackman because, and then talks about him the acceptance speech. The reason is, so Hoffman's in the pasty to play house,

in the 60s, moves to New York, looks up his old playhouse classmate, Gene Hackman. They move in together into Hackman's one-bedroom apartment on 2nd Avenue and 26th Street. Hoffman sleeps on the kitchen floor. Eventually, Hackman persuades Hoffman to go find his own place with their mutual friend, Robert Duvall. And Hoffman moves in with Robert Duvall on West 109th Street in the Upper West West. side. This to me is like the documentary, only probably the three of us would watch, but I'm just so

fascinated by the Hoffman-Hackman. This is our first original screenplay series that the three of us are writing, is these three guys living together for one year in New York and the late 60s. It's unbelievable. There's no parallel to this. Who do you think was the worst roommate? This is like, this would be like LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo all being on the same AAU team when they were seven years old.

that's the only thing I can even think of or like Randy Moss being on the same high school team as like Tom Brady and LeDaney and Tomlinson it just makes no sense I don't get it three ornery insanely talented weirdos living together is just a fascinating all of whom have multiple Oscars and are legends of the screen

if you had to choose one of the three just full stop their career just as a movie fan would you rather have to do Val would you rather have Hackman or would you rather have Hoffman? That's a great question. I think I would probably go Duval. Wow.

Yeah. I'm Hacking 10 out of 10 times. I'm going Hackman too. I also think Hackman was the most liked out of those three guys with other actors and stuff. Oh, Duval's not like a big popular guy? I don't think like Hackman was. Like Denzel literally did a movie because he wanted to be in a movie with Gene Hackman. And then same thing for Will Smith.

Like, we have, in pods we've done, there was evidence, like, the only reason they took those movies was to work with him. So, yeah, I would say Hackman. Hackman actually did what Hoffman never did, which is that he won his second Oscar, but for a supporting part in Unforgiven in the 90s, which is one of those things that, like, Hoffman always kind of struggled with. Which out of those three guys, which three would be the most fun to hear them tell stories about movies they did for two hours? Because that might actually be Duval. I think Duval. Yeah. I agree. Godfather's stories for like an hour.

Yeah. Or he's like his day of doing apocalypse now. Yeah. Should we give Duval, Hackman and Hoffman a like a smartless style pod? Would they do that? Well,

they're all about 85 to 90 years old, so I'm not sure how good that show would be, but maybe. Gene Hackman's just crushing Jags tape. Renegate season two? Maybe Gene Hackman would do a Jags pod for us. He's like a big Jaguars fan, right? I don't think he'll do anything with us.

because we accidentally killed him off from Grantland and then made up for it. Did you see the photo of him recently, though? There was a photo of him. He's thriving. Yeah, he looks great. I watched, don't ask why, but I watched the replacements

when I was in Hawaii. Yeah. And it's in the running for top five Hackman performance for me because it's just so clear that he did all of the scenes in one take and it was just like, that's going to be the take you're going to have to use. And I just love it. But it's like all cliches and it's a lot of like leaders lead, things like that.

It's great, great hackman. Apex Mountain. Actually, let's take a break and then we'll do Apex Mountain. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big, let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Viori, I got to say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably going to see me wearing some Viori. Sunday performance joggers that they have, it's made with four-way performance

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I'm going to say no, but I do think you could make a case. ADA was his Apex Mountain. It's right before the Scientology stuff, Nicole Kidman, and we don't have a lot of backstory with him. He's just cranking out awesome movies. He's the biggest under 35 star in the world, and the arrow is just pointing up as harshly and greatly as it can point up.

I still think it's 96 for him. That's what I think is well. It's Mission Impossible. First movie he ever produced. He's the star, launched the franchise, and McGuire.

I agree. Chris? No, I think I'm going to go with what Sean saying. Yeah, I agree. Hoffman, I think it's Kramer

versus Kramer for him. Did we say that once upon a time? Yeah, I think we did in all the President's men. For Hoffman. I think he decided it was Kramer versus Kramer. Yeah.

You don't think it's outbreak? Sphere? All right, I have some good ones for Apex Mountain here. People's Court. I don't think it ever got better. Late 80s, it's crushing it, prominently featured in Rain Man, the number one movie. The 4.30 to 6 p.m. daytime TV block. Yeah.

People's Court, Jeopardy will of Fortune. I talked about this on my podcast yesterday about institutions and how Jeopardy, all the work we did with Jeopardy and, and like, the real story with Jeopardy beyond the host stuff is, like, how much longer could this be an institution? institutions come and go on TV. People's Court was an institution for like eight years. I wanted to ask Craig if you'd ever heard of the People's Court before because that's something that growing up was, like you said, it was built into the fabric of the culture. But now, Craig, did you even know what that was?

Like vaguely, like I've heard of it, but not really. I mean, Judge Judy kind of came through. Judge Judy took it, yeah. She did. Five minutes to Wapner, four minutes to Wapner, or whatever it was became an actual thing people used. to say. Barry Levinson, I'm going to say yes. Yeah, I think so.

This period for sure. Yeah. But he won best director. Yeah. Number one movie at the box office. Here's the other Apex Mountain possibility for him. I really do think he was the key person other than probably being Connor for 30 for 30. Really? If he didn't agree to do the 30 for 30, I don't think we could have gotten 30 directors.

The moment we got him to commit to do, and I told him this on the podcast, the moment he committed, all of a sudden we could get other directors. Because it was kind of like, it was like, who's going in the pool first? And then he went in and it made it easier. But doesn't that make it your Apex Mountain? Maybe it's my Apex Mountain with Barry Levinson. One thing I would say, just it's not Apex Mountain in the traditional sense of like the most, you know, juice that you ever have. But the fact that a couple of years later, he pretty much invents modern TV with homicide.

Right. The pilot of Homicide that aired after the Super Bowl. he's I would say most underrated behind the scenes career huge career it's in the if you're having that conversation he's in the running like he's at least in the semifinals for guys from the last 40 years or girls very hit and miss filmography though

yeah but I'm saying like the movies that he did in the 80s combined with the impact he had on TV it's but not not mentioned you know there's no Barry Levinson conversations It's true. You wouldn't be like, hey, on the big picture today, we're doing two hours on Barry Levinson. Maybe we should.

I don't know. He's made a ton of great movies, and he's balanced it between this very personal, you know, Baltimore stuff, Avalon and Tin Men and those movies, with these, like, more Hollywood jobs that he started taking on in the 90s. You know, I think the personal stuff is usually his best stuff, but...

Well, we didn't mention Diner. That creates the template for a movie that pretty much everybody tried to rip off. It's true. For the next 20 years, the dialogue in that movie became a thing. He was an Oscar-nominated screenwriter even before all that. He wrote Injustice for All in the 70s. You know who wins the most underrated tournament? Kasden.

Most underrated, like, behind-the-scenes guy? Yeah, I think Kasden wins. I got to say, I watched Grand Canyon again recently, guys. Holy shit, what the fuck's going on in that movie? What a... Kazan did... Isn't he accidental tourist, though? He is. Yes.

Same thing to me. Highs and lows for me with Kazan. When we spin off the rewatchables and do white privilege rewatchables, Grand Canyon is going to be the first movie. It is mind-blowing. It's like, oh my God, I'm in the wrong neighborhood. What are the first draft picks for white priv rewatchables? Bonfire of the vanities. Glory.

Yeah, right up there too. Yeah. Yeah. There's this weird era in the late 80s where it's like an entire premise of a movie could be well-to-do white guy drives into the wrong neighborhood in L.A. This was the thing that would happen for like four years. Very strange. It's bonkers. I mean, Mississippi Burning the same year as a movie told through the eyes of all the white people.

Yeah. It was pretty prominent at the time. Yeah, that movie is not age well. Moray at Pex Mountain. What about our girl, Valeria Galena? I say hot shots. I say hot shots. Okay.

Road trip movies, no. No. But it's a great road trip movie. They shot it sequentially, so it's like they did it. like in the right way. I made a little list of road trip movies. Let's hear it. Can I share them?

What's here? Easy Rider. Thelman Louise. Almost famous. Blues Brothers. Midnight Run. Planes, trains, and automobiles. Smoking and the Bandit.

Dumb and Dumber. Toys Tommy Boy. And that's all I got. Road trip. Road trip. Okay. National Amphals vacation? Road trip is age.

fantastically. It's so inappropriate. It's right there in that whole American Pire era, but it's a really funny movie. There's a lot of them, though. I mean, they even, what was that Galapinacus movie where they tried to tap into it and didn't pull it off? Doodate. Yeah, due date. It was like, we've got this. And it was like, nah, not really. That's in the CR Hall of Fame, though. Yeah. It's a great downy performance. How about handheld TVs? Oh, yeah. These were a thing for like three years. was like, I can hold my TV and take it anywhere. Well, they're a thing now, too, with our cell phone. Were they really called...

Were they called watchmen? Because he calls it a watchman at one point. That's what they were called. Sony Watchman. Huh. And it could be like, I can take it wherever, and I can get one of the three local channels, basically. Who's on first?

Apex Mountain. Not Apex for Who's on First, but maybe last 40 years, Apex. It kind of brought it back. The 1949 Buick Roadmaster, yes. Quantus Airlines, yes. Yeah. This is the Apex Mountain. They're still throwing the no-hitter.

Jesus. Wheel of Fortune, no. Caesar's Palace. So they go to Caesars and Hangover, too, right? Yeah. Cesar's is having big fights during this stretch, too. There's not a lot of competition yet.

still the greatest gimmick we've ever had for a casino in Vegas, in my opinion. I know Sean will never forgive them for botching New York, the New York, New York, casino, which is so cool from the outside and just so grim on the inside. It's not ideal. Caesar's still my favorite. I would say yes for that. Blackjack, no. What's the Apex Mountain for Blackjack?

You in 1996? Probably me, me and Jacoby in New Orleans in 2000. 2013, 7 in the morning, the whole casino behind us. Cincinnati, I think you could make a case because you have this and then you have the Reds in 89 right after winning the World Series. Apex Mountain for Cincinnati. You know, big red machine? The Big Red Machine is bigger than this?

You know what else happens? The Bengals make the Super Bowl in 89 too. Boomer, that's right. It's a lot of shit going on with Cincy back then. How about WKRP and Cincinnati reruns? There's just Cincinnati's really I'm the present this year. Great job by them. Yeah, right before the.

follow the Rust Belt, you know, and we just completely hollowed out the center of our country with the destruction of Glass Stegle. March shot, P. Rose. Yeah. That's right. Peak of the nasty boys, right? This was Dibble era? Yeah. Chris Sabo?

This is the last one for Apex Mountain, and it's specifically for Chris, because I know it's going to make them laugh. The Apex Mountain of road trips happening because the main character is afraid to fly. Midnight run. Right next to each other.

These things go down. What a gimmick. Wait, when do they bring you this back? Every five years, this should be the thing. Now, I can't fly out.

I guess we're going to have to go on the road. I would just say one last Apex Mountain is 97X, bam, the future of rock and roll. The 97X has never topped it. Great point. Pick of Nets. Come on, guys. A 1949 Buick Roadmaster going from Cincinnati,

to L.A. So they drove like 35 miles per hour across the country and he's like I can get there in three days, right? I think it's like 30. If you're on 35 miles an hour, what is that? Like, Craig, can you look up how far Cincinnati is to Los Angeles? I'm going to say it's at least 2,000 miles. If you're going 35 miles an hour, 35 into 2000, yeah, maybe. I guess if you're driving like 18 hours a day. But they lose an entire day sitting it out in Missouri. They just sit in Missouri for... Yeah, it's not happening. 2,173 miles, according to Craig.

Good guess, Bill. Yeah, 35 miles an hour. Whatever it is, but they're not on like the... No way. The interstates. Stops, hotel rooms. This one's for Sean. Charlie passes through Vegas

with Raymond. At that point, you're now... Especially at night, you're a four-hour drive if you're going... five miles an hour and if you're going 35 miles an hour, maybe it's eight. Why not just, you got to get to L.A.? Why not just go all-nighter through L.A.? Why are you stopping at a hotel room getting breakfast the next day? Like, you're close. You're 240 miles away at that point. I'm glad you mentioned this. I think Raymond has some sleep issues. I think he needs to be in a bed.

Oh, yeah. It's good. It's bedtime. It's out at 11, you know? Can't do all-nighters with Raymond's, you know, got to have the bed in the right place. Do you think he was thinking like, I think Raymond ever fell asleep in his seat. Oh, and Charlie goes back out. I got it three more hours. Probably. Just keep going. All right, here's another one.

I have some great nitpicks for this one. This movie's been up for 31 years. How does Ray burn the waffles that badly? I've never burned toaster waffles that badly in my life. It's like a forest fire. 1980s electrics were a little bit more sensitive, you know? He puts two waffles in the toaster, and it's like the Malibu fires.

What happened? It's unbelievable. The whole kitchen's full of smoke. There are people with horses down on the beach. Brody Jenner has to leave his house. Like, what is happening? So Ray, we get to Vegas and Ray's routine now is no longer matters or is a factor. He no longer has to watch Wapner Wheel of Fortune.

He no longer has to have to go to bed a certain hour. Now that we have Blackjack, we're all good with all of this. it's a legitimate gripe I think the logic of the movie starts to fall apart a little bit that being said anybody who's been to Vegas knows transporting time vanishes

when you're in Vegas yeah Raymond literally probably is no idea of time he doesn't see the sun he's got the recirculated air he's just like oh it must be like 330 forever here very fair

we mentioned the age difference between Charlie and Raymond how you think they're they're trying to pretend maybe he's 20 years older it feels like they wanted to be more like 10 or 12 because you know they have a photo of him when he's like it looks like he's like 18 and maybe the kid is like five or six you know they have that little that little

um i don't know how they photoshop very suspicious i feel like there should have been a sister middle middle sister why did charlie run a bath with ray in the bathroom who takes a bath in a crappy hotel with your brother in the room? Like, who's the bath for him? Why was the bath so hot right away? He starts a bath. It's 230 degrees. Can you move over Raymond? I'm going to make my 230 degree bath. This is one of your best nitpics of all time. Why did he take a bath? Because that scene is the skeleton key scene of the whole movie. That's where he learns that he's the rain man. It's where he learns like the origin of the trauma and almost certainly why Raymond was sent away and at the same time, I completely agree with Bill.

What the fuck's going on there? Why is he taking? Who's taking the bat? Is it Raymond or Charlie? Baths were huge in the 80s, though. I just feel like people would be like, I got to relax by getting into a bath. Not in like the Missouri Hotel 8. Like, just take a shower. So weird. Why did they drive through old Vegas on the way to L.A.? That whole part, did Charlie like veer off? It's pretty hard to like, I know it looks good, but it's it's such a weird... There's so many shots where it's like this... This shot was either done at dusk or dawn.

Yeah. In this movie, it's not a lot of like... It's 2 o'clock. He does basically ways for streets and highways that would look cool in the movie. Yes. So it's like... Now, I mean, there's a million terrible Nevada highways

he could have gone down. He said, no, we're going to drive through Old Vegas. We mentioned no way the casino gets that pissed about them winning 89K. And then my last nitpick... again, right in Chris's wheelhouse. I just feel like cocaine should have been a little more involved in this movie. I think they were afraid of it.

It's suggested that there's a lot of cocaine happening at Charlie Babbit imports. Charlie Babett Motors. I feel like at Vegas maybe Charlie dials it up a notch. Yeah. In the first scene, when he's talking to Lenny, he is flying high. When he's talking about the emissions and how he's going to, you know, how he's going to take five grand off the deal and that whole scene. Tom is humming.

This movie is pretty hostile to climate change. Like, he's just real dismissive of the EPA in this movie. Wow. Yeah. Are you canceling Rain Man? Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? No. Probably in answerable questions.

Was a high-end card to every service a 1980s idea or an idea that actually worked, Chris? No, it's a 1980s idea. What's the, what is like the economic ceiling for a business like that. So let's say like he does pass the EPA emissions and he can deliver those four cars. Like what's he clearing after over, after he pays Lenny, right? He's already cutting people $5,000 discounts for the delays anyway. Like by the time he actually gets these cars to the to the Mike Ovitz's and Don Simpsons of LA. Like how much is Charlie Babin actually making off this deal? He's paying like 13 people. Yeah. It can't be allowed. He's bribing,

Environmental Protection Agency agents. I just want to point out it's 1127 a.m. Monday as we're taping this and Sean just yawned. That was the yawn of somebody who just had a kid within the last five weeks. I recognized the yawn.

I told Sean if you have a baby it's like... I can't believe I'm on this fucking Zoom listening to these dipshits talk about a 1980 Lamborghini team. I told Sean, I told Sean it was... I told Sean it was... I told Sean.

it was like a torn ACL when you have a kid and we just saw it right there. Normally he would be so engaged at our high-end, hard-delivered service tonvo. Now he's just yawning. This is it. Sean's peaked. Apex Mountain for Sean two months ago.

Give us a little director's commentary. What were you just thinking when Bill and I were on that jag? He was just thinking about 3.30 in the morning last night as somebody threw up on him. So, okay, here's the thing. One, whatever you guys were talking about, I wasn't listening.

Two, when I was watching Rain Man, I was thinking that this movie is a lot like watching after a newborn child. Like, Charlie can never not be looking at what Raymond is doing, otherwise he's going to walk into oncoming traffic. And the same way when you have a kid, every single thing you do is like, that's like having a kid. But watching this movie, I was like, man, this is like, if I can't get up to go pour myself a cup of coffee because this child might fall off the couch. And that could be terrible. So it is, the movie is a weird parable for like responsibility.

Right. Well, just wait until your kid can start rolling around on the floor and reaching toward electric socket. Having a kid is like importing some Lamborghinis, you know, and then they're just like, they're on your books. The thing is, though, I'm going to be bringing my daughter to Vegas very soon. We're going to play one for bad, two for good. If we had a category of which part does Chris wish she could have played, it clearly would have been Lenny in this movie. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

This is actually like the Lenny character in this movie is so close to Pantiliano and Midnight Run. Like you just would want him just being like, Fuck you! Oh, you know what? That would have been such a better answer for the recasting couch. Joey Pants as Lenny. Yeah, that's good. It's a way better idea.

Plus, we would have had a little cruise. You're telling me to go fuck myself. They're telling me to go fuck myself. Plus we would have the cruise, Guido the Killer Pimp reunion. Yeah. That's what they should have done. I changed my answer. All right, what piece of memorability do you want from this movie?

I'm not allowing you to pick the 1949 Buech Roadmaster. Why? Because it's too easy. Give me your second choice. Mine is the 1984 uncut top sheet from Raymond's room,

which I was admiring. It was like, oh, the 84. Get that Ted Klusinski card? Hmm. What else is... All the Reds cards? What's in 84?

Like Ryan Sandberg? Who are we talking about? I think it might have been like a Roger Clemens and Dwight Gooden might have been on that one. I was squinting trying to see it. We should get Gio in to analyze that. 85.

It was 84 or 85, but maybe it was 85. It was somewhere in that era, but it was a nice one. Cruz's sunglasses is pretty killer in this movie. Yeah. Great sunglass run for Cruz. We probably should have brought that up a little sooner, but he really reinvented sunglasses and movies. The King of Raybans.

All right, let's do it. Who won the movie? I would have said Hoffman for a few years, but I actually think it was Cruz. I think Cruz wins the movie. I'm not even doing a zag. Like, I really genuinely think, wins the movie. So not only do I agree with you, I also think that the movie is Cruz's story.

Like, when you're watching the movie, I think you're like, oh, this is about this guy's journey and his sort of transformation. Yes, which is why he wins the movie. Plus, after this movie, it leads to the next 29 years of Tom Cruise or however long. Like, this was his first, like, really adult part. I know Top Gunn is an adult technically and cock. is technically an adult, but it's like kind of of the young upstart, same thing for color of money. This is like he's an adult. And you could see like, now you could see where his career is going after this movie.

We're sure it's not Barry Levinson? Hmm. Best picture, best director, number one movie of the year, cements him in the firmament of 80s and 90s filmmakers. But what's the next best Barry Levinson movie after this?

The next best movie. Like the next best movie he makes after this. But that's exactly the point. Oh, so you're just like, he wins this movie and this is as good as it gets, right? Yeah. Yes.

I say no, only because I don't think people think of this as a Barry Levinson movie. I think they think of it as a Hoffman-Cruz movie. I think that that's true. But if you took this movie completely off out of Dustin Hoffman's career and out of Tom Cruise's career, remove it.

We probably wouldn't think of them that much differently. Maybe Hoffman a little bit. I think Cruz needs it. Do you? Because then Jerry McGuire becomes even more important for the Cruz Great Part legacy where he's just a movie. Cruz has a movie star. This is a movie star role for him. And one of the reasons I think he wanted is like, all right, take anyone from the last 20 years, who pulls this off?

Leo, Damon. This is a good Damon part. I think it might actually be like a better Affleck part because he's a little bit more of a blowhard Yeah, he could play a blowhard a little bit better But is it like, do you want to see Chris Evans as Charlie? I like Chris Evans. He could do it.

He would have been fine. Who else? Brad Pitt? What about like a E. McGregor or somebody like that? You know, somebody who in the 90s had that kind of energy. That edge?

Yeah. Young Clooney? No. Jake Gyllenhaal? Bruce Willis, right at the exact same time, moonlighting Bruce Willis here? He's too, like, no, I feel like he's too old. Michael Keaton.

Michael Keaton would have been good in this. You're right, that's a good one. Hank would, I wouldn't have bought Hanks as a chain-smoking dick, which was really the problem with Hank's career, even though he's one of the greatest actors we've had, but there was a specific type of part you couldn't buy him in. Bonfire of the Vanities was another one. She's like, I just don't buy you in this part.

William Hurt. Not nice enough. Kevin Klein. Maybe. Too nice. Oh. What about like punchline era Hanks? Do you think that works?

I just think he's too nice. Edward James almost. How about Sean yawning? So I vote Cruz, Chris votes Cruz, and Sean votes Levinson? I'm just trying to mix it up here. You know? I mean, I want to hear.

what you really think between Hoffman and Cruz. I think Hoffman wins the movie. I think the Raymond character became such an iconic figure in the culture and he's so correlated to it. I think the kind of Brainiac movie podcaster part of us is like, it's Cruz. You know, if you think hard about the movie, the movie falls apart without him. But to the public at large, I mean, he won best actor. He was the lead, the number one figure, the title character in the biggest movie of the year. He started a wave of other actors trying an actresses trying to win Oscars by emulating his strategy. He's the quintessential autistic savant character. I mean, I think to me, the sort of like, let's not overthink it answer is Hoffman. The let's think way too hard about it is Levinson. The smart answer is what you guys are

suggesting. All right. He seemed dissatisfied with that. What happened? I really want a Cruz to win. I feel bad. Cruz needed it. I think he's going to be okay. He can't win the Oscar. He can't win who won the movie. It's just such a rough run for him. You know what I was thinking about? So we haven't had a Tom Cruise movie in three years because of COVID. Yeah. Because his movies have been pushed back. And this is the longest period of time in our lives since he came on the scene that we haven't had a Tom Cruise movie.

We've never gone three years without a performance from him in a movie. Reacher 3? You want Reacher 3? I love Reacher 1 and 2. You can tell it's killing him too. Him not being out there. Yeah. Yeah, he's dying.

Yeah, he's trying to get two of these Mission Impossible movies. movies done once. I guess they're not going to shoot them concurrently now. But I mean, I knew he was in trouble when he showed up at Wimbledon. I knew that's when he was really starving for affection and attention. That video of him going to see Tenet in theaters when it came out and like getting all fired up about it, that was that was the first sign of his public thirst. Here's what I want though. I want Cruz to move into the zone where he is like he is passing the torch down. The same way that Paul Newman did did for him. I would love to see Cruz

because he was supposed to do it with Renner and Mission Impossible and he just essentially was like actually I changed my mind I'm going to keep making these movies but I would love to see him make a movie in which he actually was the elder statesman in the film rather than like always

the center of attention he's he's LeBron though he's like I have to be at the center I have to be the full crime Anthony Davis Jeremy Runner in this metaphor he's like you can only generous to Renner you can only be in my movies

if you're in clutch or if I'm superior to you. And if things don't work out for two minutes, we're trading you. I think one thing he knows is that there will never be another Tom Cruise

so he's going to be Tom Cruise for as long as he can. You know what, Sean, you're fucking A-right. There's never going to be Tom Cruise. It's the smartest point you've ever made. What a fucking icon. Cocktail and Raint Man in the same year.

Jesus. Tom Cruise. Love that guy. All right. Chris, Sean. Thanks. This was produced by Craig Horlebeck. I'm not sure what's coming next week,

but we'll try to alert you at least a dare to before the pod. I thought that was slick, the Instagram story. Just tipping people off. Yeah, tipping it off. Well, this is on Netflix if you want to watch it, and then you can listen to the podcast again. We'll see you next week.