The Rewatchables - ‘Rounders’ With Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: September 11, 2018

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey set off to “go play some f*cking cards” and relive the 1998 poker classic ‘Rounders,' starring Matt Damon and Edward Norton and directed by John Dahl. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly. Here's what's going on at The Ringer for the next couple of days. Every Sunday night on The Ringer NFL show, Robert Maze and Kevin Clark will be breaking down everything you need to know from the full slate of games and will be ready for your Monday commute. For even more NFL content, Roger Sherman is writing about the week one NFL winners and losers. And lastly, you can read Kevin O'Connor's take on the most underrated NBA offseason editions on our site, The Ringer.com. You know what cheers me up when I'm feeling shitty? Rolled up bases over Kings. Watchables coming up. Rounders right now.

The last two years, Mike McDermott has been doing the sensible thing. But his best friend just got out of jail. I can't believe you still know someone called Worm. He's like my brother. Domesticated yourself for this girl. And need someone to lean on. I need money. I got to put some scratch together, man.

I consolidated your outstanding debt. 25 grand and still running. What I did was go partners with an old friend of you was. We do what we used to do, man. You find the games, you scout them. I sit and I mop them up. Michael McDermott. I knew you'd be back.

Last night, I sat down at that table, and I felt alive. My blood was bubbling. My skin was tingling. I was James Colbert in The Magnificent Seven throwing knives. Hold on there. He's a chief. Right now, he's ruining your reputation. If you don't hips my money, then you are of mine.

I vouched for the wrong guy. Matt Damon, Edward Norton, John Turturro. John Malkovich, Gretchen Mall, Fomka Jansen, and Martin Lando. Rounders. John Fentacy's here. Yes. I'm here. We've been circling this movie for a while, and there's a reason to do it.

It's the 20th anniversary of Rounders, which has belatedly become one of the best sports movies. It is a slow burn movie, and it kind of has a slow burn that doesn't happen anymore, but happen in the 90s a lot, where movies could kind of come and go and people could miss them, and then they would start gaining a run. ironically, because they were rewatchable. Yeah, I think also you were very responsible for helping build some of the cult of this movie, right? You wrote about it in your column. I remember you did a curious guy column with Brian Coppulman and David Levine.

That was after it took off, though. Yeah, that was like, what, probably 06, something in that time? I did a movie quotes. I used to hand out movie quotes as NBA Awards, and I had been at page 2 for less than a year. And in spring of 2002, I handed out Rounders quotes. and I remember when I did it, I told my editors I was doing it, and they were like Rounders.

Like, it was one of those. It wasn't, I think I'd done Top Gun the last time I'd done like more big movies. And I was like, no, rounders is, I feel like it's a thing. I feel like it's, all my friends watch Rounders. Like, it's happening. Did it have like a TBS run or was it HBO?

What was it on that it made it shot it into the jet stream of consciousness? It was just in the cable. You know, it's actually a really good cable movie. There's not like sex. It's not super violent. There's only some swears and that's it. So it's one of those things that could run on T&T, but could also run on the HBO thing.

For me, I saw it on a date with my wife. I liked it. I didn't love it. I thought the poker stuff was hard to understand the first time you watched it. I also didn't know that much about poker. Yeah, we should talk about that. Yeah.

And so I didn't get, like, all of a sudden, he was up $60,000. I didn't get the Oreo tell. I just missed things. And I had this illegal cable box. lived in Charlestown that we got from again in Big Al. And they would run the pay-per-views and you'd have like, you know, 20

paper-view channels. And each week the movies would change. And all of a sudden, so it was like Channel 112 would be Rounders and it was just on constantly. So you'd be like, oh, it's 8 o'clock. Oh, I'm halfway through Rounders. You would jump in. And Rounders quickly became super duper rewatchable. And within about four or five, I was like,

I'm in. I love this movie. I think I had a very different experience with it. because I didn't see it in theaters. I was becoming obsessed with Ed Norton at that time. This is kind of right in the middle of the Ed Norton moment, but it comes right after Goodwell Hunting. And it was just before I went to college. So I didn't see it.

And then I went to college. And like many people who live on the East Coast and go to college, I got really into poker when I got into college. Yeah. And if Rounders was on TV all the time, and the World Series of poker was just starting to creep into the consciousness on ESPN at that point. It had been on that network for a long time.

This is pre-Christ Money. maker. Yeah. And we're talking October 98. Yes. That's when the movie comes out. I'm in college about a year later, year and a half later. And I don't know.

It's just, it's, it's so addictive and it's so rewarded the rewatch. Like most movies, if you rewatch them, they become like a family member where you can kind of hear them off in the distance and you can quote the lines. And it feels like nice to be around. But this is a movie that if you pay attention every time, you get a little something new. Yeah. Which I think that's why they made it the way that they did. I think that's why they kind of just throw you.

you into the lingo, they throw you into the world. That first scene, if you don't know anything about poker, if you're just Jack and Jane Doe, and, you know, Mike McDee starts talking about the turn and flopping the nuts and all the phraseology that comes into the movie, you must have been so confused. Because they're not, they don't hold your hand in any way, and that's actually what makes it so good. Right. And that's what leads to the slow burn. When I saw it, I just didn't know a lot about poker. And on top of that, there hadn't been a lot of poker stuff in movies and TV. You know, you look at a movie like Maverick.

Yes. Which is actually kind of an underrated movie. I love Maverick. Yeah. I don't think it gets to credit. It deserves the Jody Foster, the sex tension with her and Mel Gibson. I'm not sure it was there. But for the most part, really good, well-written movie, William Goldman.

But for the most part, there just weren't a lot of poker scenes. And when you saw cards and movies, it was usually the bad guys playing cards in some kitchen. Yeah, I don't know how much you want to talk about the hands in the movie rounders right now, but if you look at the hands that come in movies before this, and even after this, and I'm obsessed with poker hands and movies, they're all ridiculous. The Cincinnati Kid is kind of one of the great poker movies of all time, but every hand in that movie is absurd. It's like, I've got four kings and another guy's like, I've got four aces, you know, in that in Maverick, there's that great, hilarious, so over the top scene at the end between

James Coburn and Alfred Molina and James Garner and, you know, Coburn says, like, I've got two pair, eights and eights. You know, like, everybody's got four of a kind every time. And that's just, if you play poker, that's not poker. I've had four of a kind maybe 15 times in my life, and I've played a million, two million, 10 million hands. It just, it doesn't happen that often. So this movie was one of the first times, especially the more I got into the game, you

felt like even though some of it is fantastical and ridiculous, there was real attention to the specificity of the game and what it could actually be like to be in a hand. And the dialogue of it. Yes. How people talk at the table. I went from not playing poker ever and going to Vegas, probably starting in 94, 95 and going twice a year, maybe. Going to Foxwoods a couple of times to play Blackjack never even occurred to me to play poker.

And within two months of rounders in the legal cable box, it became like, hey, I'm going to tell me my girlfriend, I'm going to go to Foxwoods. I'm going to be back at like four in the morning tonight. What? To play Blackjack? No, I'm going to go play poker. By yourself? Like suspicion?

like I'm cheating. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to New Hampshire with some mistress I have. But I just wanted to play. And it's an infectious movie. I think I asked, I did a curious guy with Coppomen and Levine in 06 after the movie had blossomed. And it was like the poker boom was that the biggest reason this, like Chris Moneymaker, was that the biggest reason this movie belatedly took off. And he said it was that, but it was also.

the whole cam. Yeah, yeah. For the whole cards where before you watch poker and you can see it in the Johnny Chancy in this movie, you'd no idea what the guy's hat. They're just studying cards

and you can't see. But once they put the cameras in, poker became fun to watch. So that happens right as Rounders is taking off. And the irony of Rounders is it didn't do well. It had Matt Damon after a monster, monster movie where he's an A-plus-List

celebrity all of a sudden. It had Ed Norton in this really nice run that he was having is one of the best under 35 actors we had. It had John Dahl. It had Gretchen Mall as like getting buzz as like a little potential siren. And one of the all-time and Harvey Weinstein. One of the incredible supporting casts in movie history.

Yeah, Malkovich. Malkovich, Titoro, Martin Landau, tons of that guys all throughout the movie. It's a sports movie. It came out at the right time. It was like October. It felt like a time it should have come out. And it had the MerrimX machine at its all-time.

time. Yes. Cloud. And it just seemed like there was a lot of ads for it. It seemed like it was going to work.

And it didn't work. And I think for Coppulman and Levine, they were the guys that wrote it. Brian Coppman, David Levine, we have a long

relationship with Copman, obviously. They had immersed themselves in poker. They both got into it. They both played satellite tournaments. They really learned the lingo.

They put all this detail and care to it. And I think they're still bitter about like, Miramax just pulled the movie after three weeks. they had no idea

and then belatedly it made money and then by 2003 it made so much money on Blu-ray and DVD all that stuff Yeah there's a case that it was five years too early but there's also a case that it was right on time Yeah there needed to be this stake in the ground And there needed to be this cultural touchstone

for all these players who got obsessed with the game to reference I mean I know that Brian and David are fully aware of how obsessed pros became with the game and how much they talked about it And then how much jerks like me in college were obsessed with the game and quoting the movie over and over. I'm still quoting that fucking movie and playing home games now.

It's hard to play poker and not think of scenes and lines from the movie. It really, it's almost like if every basketball movie ever made was just one basketball movie. And if Hoosiers was just the only basketball movie ever made, we would constantly reference Hoosiers.

Yeah, and there have been other poker movies that have been not bad. Like, Lucky You came after this. And, you know, there were a handful of others. But, like, this is, this is actually bigger to poker than Hoosiers could ever beat a basketball. There just wasn't anything that was this true and useful and fun to watch.

I think it came out at the perfect time, but it probably didn't feel that way at the time. And this goes back to a little slow burn thing because you saw it with swingers, you saw it dazed and confused. This would happen every year. There would be some movie that slipped through the cracks. It would belatedly gain steam

and would have this kind of word of mouth network. Have you seen it? Actually, it happened this three years ago with John Wick. It did. It was like John Wick came out. It was like Keanu Reeves, whatever. It was good. And then it had a run.

And then it became a thing. And it led to John Wick too. So I guess it can still happen. I think you're explaining the DNA of what makes a great rewatchables episode, though. Because there's either Jaws, which everybody agrees is perfect and we love it. And it'll be in the canon forever. But for the most part, I think the most fun movies to talk about, the most fun movies to do this show on. And some of our most popular episodes are movies like this.

The movies that people are like, God damn it, I have such a relationship to this movie. This is a great one. We should mention only 65 on Rotten Tomatoes. Insane. The reviews of this movie are weird. The reviews, David Anson of Newsweek murdered it. Peter Travers of Rolling Stone didn't really like it. Nobody liked it.

I went back and I was reading some of the reviews last night, variety. All these people were like, eh, it's fine. It's all right. I see disappointing. Could have been better. Weirdly, Roger Eber. I was just going to say, I think Roger Ebert liked this movie, as I recall. Three out of four.

Nice. My guy. You're going to denigrate him again? It's about time, Roger. It's about time you had a good opinion. And this was in a run where Damon has one of the great three movie, like just for characters slash rewatchability slash how unique the character. were, Goodwill Hunting, Rounders, talented Mr. Ripley.

Can I give you my theory on this stage of Matt Damon's career? Please. So Matt Damon is a very handsome and accomplished, young, exciting movie star, and he keeps getting cast essentially as the same guy. And this character is called Matt Damon is lying. In all of his key roles in the beginning of his career, Goodwill Hunting, this movie, courage under fire, especially the talented Mr. Ripp. he's just dishonest.

And it's because he's got this baby face. He's got this innocent affectation. He left out school ties, which was like his breakout rules. And he's evil in school ties. He's evil. But there's something like so naturally likable about him as a movie star actor that if you cast him as somebody

who's like a little bit scummy under the surface, it's really effective. Yeah. And producers and directors like clearly saw this in him and kept putting him in this position to be like a little bit untrustworthy, a little bit might make the wrong. choice. That's where the attention comes in movies. And he's been able to kind of change that over time, something like The Martian. He's just like a good guy and we root for him. But at this stage,

I love that Goodwill Hunting Rounders, talented Mr. Ripley trifecta, all Miramax movies, all handpicked by Harvey Weinstein at this time. But they really got how to put him in a great role. What was the Grissom movie he did? Rainmaker? Yes, the Rainmaker. That was the only one where it just felt like. like he was off. He hadn't learned how to just be Matt Damon yet. He had to have that little edge that you're talking about.

And he was too pure at that time too. I mean, that's a movie that really should have worked, right? That's a Francis Ford Copeland movie. It's crazy that he was Tom Ripley and Mike McDee like in the same year, basically. Yeah.

And Will Hunting basically the year before that. Yeah. Those are, you know, Will hunting and Mike McDee definitely could have been cousins. Some crossover. Yeah, there's some crossovers. I love Mike McD.

I can't think of anybody else I would have wanted as Mike McDee. I think... Was anybody else on the board? I mean, we always go Leo versus Damon. Yeah. I don't know if Leo was on the board for this, but Leo as like being friends with worm

and I don't... He could not have done this in the early part of his career. Not innocent enough. There's always that Cheshire cat grew in with Leo. You know, he always knows a little more than the other guy in the room. I don't know. Do you think Damon and Ed Norton

could have switched parts? I was going to save this for probably unanswerable questions, but I'm going to just throw it out there now. Norton, 100%. At this time, I was like, like, Ed Norton is the new Marlon Brando. I really thought he was the most important actor who had come along in 10, 12 years. That, we, our opinions may have changed about that over time.

Damon, no. I don't, I think it would be fun to watch Damon be a sleaze ball. But Norton is the embodiment of filth and dishonesty, you know? He's just, I don't think, I think actually Ed Norton is probably more irreplaceable than Damon. Directed by John Daw. Mm-hmm. who compliment and Levin really pursued and tried to get.

Yeah, somebody who understood, I think there's like a real noir element to this movie. And John Dole obviously gets that. Yeah. I wrote that this movie actually made me start playing poker in casinos against people who were missing teeth. That it was life-altering in a useless way. That just means you're playing poker in a casino. Right. The people sit in a poker table in casinos is a grim scene.

I think what I, the stuff that I like as I've now watched this movie, it's in the hundreds. It really is. It's like it's been 20 years. I've seen at least chunks of it in the hundreds. I don't know if I've watched it start to finish 100 times, but at least 30 to 40. At least twice a year.

It is the definition of a rewatchable where you're flicking channels and it's on. Every kind of section of the movie you can come into. So in the beginning, if it's starting, it's like, oh, cool. Mike McDee's going to lose all his money. I'm in for the full ride. Three stacks of high society. Let's go.

If it's, oh, he's springing worm from prison. Oh, they're going to go to that weird house and worms going to hit on that girl. I'm in. And now you go a little later. Oh, his girlfriend's about to move out. Let's go play some fucking cards. It's about to happen. And it's just, it's, you can jump in.

It's probably six different sections. You just come in. This is a bold claim. I think this might be my favorite movie of the last 20 years. Wow. I don't think it's the best movie. I don't think it's the best movie. But it's the movie that might make me the happiest.

I hadn't rewatched it in the way that I rewatched it this week in a long time, which is to say like locked in. And as I was watching it, even the stuff that isn't believable or it doesn't work as well, I'm sure we'll spend a lot of time on Gretchen Mall. I was still just so happy. It just made me so calm and excited at the same time, which is so rare. It's classic. So when I did the page two piece,

And at that point, you know, you're feeling it out, but I was pretty convinced that I was right on this one. Sent it out in the world and just got so many. I fucking love that movie. Yeah! Rounders! Exclamation point. And I was like, oh, okay, I was right.

Yes. But I didn't know for sure. But so that, I wrote that spring 2002. Moneymaker happened the next year. And, you know, by that time, Coppiment and Levine had gotten tilt, and they tried to do that ESPN show. show that didn't work mostly because of ESPN's fault.

It was just the wrong channel for it. I actually think that show could have worked. I remember you making that argument a lot that it was like that show should have been on HBO. That was like a persistent note that you were giving in the world. Well, it is interesting that nobody has tried to do rounders the TV show since. I bet they've been offered. I wouldn't be shocked if they've been offered. I'm not saying with Coppomen and Levine, like do it wherever.

A poker show. I think the stuff I like the most about this movie after watching a million times is, you know, like when they go to Atlantic City. and they show up at the table and all the dudes from Chesterfield are there. And they say, oh, welcome to the Chesterfield South. It's all those little nuances of just these fucking losers that are just really good at this one thing and they know how to run a game

and they have like respect for each other. They don't really want to take each other's money. Let's just basically molest the tourists and take their money. It's a little like working at the ringer. Yeah. There's a lot to go through here. We should probably, we should probably hit the categories

because there's just a lot going on. There's so much. I literally just copy and paste the entire page of quotations from this movie because I couldn't know how to pick stuff. It does have about as many quotes as we've had for, we haven't done some of the classics yet. This movie is up there for classics

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Go to Lisa.com slash rewatchables ships direct to your door in a convenient box with free shipping and free returns. Enter promo code rewatchables at checkout. And you're done. Lisa.com slash rewatchables. promo code rewatchables, L-E-E-S-A.com. All right. The most re-watchable scene of rounders.

I have five. The opening scene. Mike McDee loses his history. shirt. I'm going to go on because I don't think you have the spades. You're right. I don't have the spades. I need to discuss that scene with you. Okay. Number two, Mike McDee's poker comeback. Let's just play that because it's just fucking unbelievable. You know what cheers me up when I'm feeling shitty? What? Rolled up aces over kings. Is that right? Yeah. Check raising stupid tourists and taking huge pots off them. Yeah. Stacks and towers and checks I can't even seal.

playing all night high limit hold them into taj where the sand turns to gold fuck it let's go don't tease me let's play some fucking cards let's play some fucking cards gets me so fired up the guitar riff I'm just like I'm so ready to gamble it's like in swingers when they're when they're about to hit Vegas I hit me in Vegas Vegas you know what the thing is though it's a little bit of a of a cheat and you know because you and I played cards on the same night earlier this summer. Yeah. And I think you remembered

what it's actually like to play cards. It's so bad. It's so slow. It's slow and boring. People are terrible. You're all Joe, everyone's Joey Kinnish. No one's Mike McDee.

No. Everyone has to grind to make a little bit of money and have even a modicum of fun. But this movie makes it sound like you're getting a jet engine and you fly down the tarmac. And every hand is Four Kings versus the full house. Exactly.

It's just not that way. Yeah. When we play poker, you just put your AirPods in. And you don't interact with everyone. My favorite thing to do, my favorite thing to do in my life is to get in my car, drive all the way to Vegas, and then just sit at a poker table for eight hours, not talk to anybody in play.

That is the most common thing I can do. All right. So that's second, the Johnny Chan scene, which I didn't know any poker players. I kind of remember Doyle Brunson, didn't know anyone else. And then Johnny Chan, who's one of the big winners of this movie. 100%. That scene's amazing. Everything about it's awesome.

I love the fact that the Russian lady has just intimate familiarity with World Series of Polar Helens. Oh, look at the patience. That's a classic. I'm sorry, John. I don't remember. Amazing lines. Mike and Worme trying to win everything back. I've gone on runs like this before.

And then finally, the final scene, Mike McDivers, Teddy KGB. Those are five fairly iconic to legitimately iconic rewatchable scenes. What is the most rewatchable scenes? into this movie, Sean Fantasy. Couple of runner-up nominations. Yeah. The judge's game. I love the judge's game.

Just Mike Meaty putting people on hands. Every movie like this needs a moment to show you how smart the lead character is. This is a perfect example of just like when he points out the hands of every single judge in the room. And then Judge Maranacci is like willing to give him a clerkship because he put him on one hand in one game. I don't even know what they're playing high-low stud maybe in that room. And then the other nomination is the scariest scene. I think one of the best made scenes in the movie, which is the trip to Binghamton

and the card game with the police officers. The municipal workers. Yeah, that's a really, that shot of them getting their ass kicked after they've been caught when, you know, Norton's doing the mechanic stuff. It's pretty amazing stuff. Really cool, like, really tension filled.

In a movie that, like, the stakes are always kind of up and down, you don't really know, like, how dangerous is grandma? What is KGB really going to do? And that scene when those cops are kicking the shit out of them, that's really good. my favorite scene the most rewatchable scene I think is the opening scene because I think it's a testament to it drawing you in

and I love the soundtrack and I love Mike McDee rolling in with 30 grand and getting the three stacks of high society and sitting down to play and starting to explain the game and the kind of nuances of the game you know voiceover has become like a real no-no in movies over the last 20 years you know where I stand I hate voiceover

but in this movie it really works It's really effective, and he's voicing over the first 10 minutes of the movie, basically. I have one quibble, and I'm going to go into it right now. That final hand between him and KGB in the opening scene. Mike McD is holding Ace 9. KGB, of course we know, is holding ACEs. The board comes down, and I think it's Ace 9-8. And then another eight comes, or excuse me, another nine comes, given Mike his full boat.

also giving KGB his boat and then there's a rag on the river. KGB is so sure of himself that he's won that he just shows Mike his aces, drops the cards on the table, and walks away. But there's a chance that Mike McDee could have been holding pocket nines giving him four nines,

beating KGB's boat. I've never heard anybody talk about this. You're talking, this is the opening scene. The opening scene. How did KGB, he was so, sure that his boat was better than Mike McDee's boat, but Mike McDee could have had a story. It's just one of those very random card

things. You should have saved this for picking this. I just, I can't get it out of my head since it happened. It's like, if Mike McD had four nines, then what happens? KGB has to like come back to the table and it's awkward? That's just, it's, that's the only thing about the movie that really bugs me. He just looked at his face. Mike McDee's face?

Yeah, he's just devastated. Yeah, he read his face. He doesn't need to see anything else. He read his face. That's what I thought. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I would still want to see the cards. My favorite scene, the most rewatchable scene for me, is Gretchen Mall moves out of the apartment. But not the moving out part, just when they get to that, the apartment. All the stuff's gone. Ed Norton does the woman or the fucking rake speech. And then Mike Bitt these wheels are turning

leading to, fuck it, let's go, let's play some fucking cards. The music, it gets me so fired up. It's great. It's almost like a sports movie scene. That's my favorite scene. I love all these scenes, though. What's age the best? I don't know if this is the greatest opening line in movie history, but it's certainly one of the most memorable. I would like to see that list. What's the greatest opening line in the history of movies? The first line of this movie is, listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you are the sucker. It's a fucking great way to open a movie. So good. I don't know. What do what is the best opening line in the history of movies?

That list has to exist on the internet somewhere. I don't know. That's a really good question. Maybe this sounds like a column you can work on over your vacation. Thanks, Bill. Another thing that's what's age the best. And so again, the category is what's age the best? So as the years go on, how has that helped this movie?

There's billions DNA in this. We all have billions at the ringer. And you watch Rounders and it's almost like watching Tracy McGrady on the Raptors. You're like, oh, yeah. Oh, remember Chay T-Mack? Yeah, I felt like that was going to keep going for those guys. So what are, what are the, what are the billions aspects? The pop culture references that I felt like Buckner going into Shea. Yeah. All those like little subtle throwaway lines that became kind of one of the reasons we love billions. Signatures. Yeah. Yeah. And then Malcovich, too, obviously in season three. The Malcovich, yeah. You just mentioned that

scene when, when Mike McDee loses the 30K, the Mike McDermit face. I think the face he makes is one of the best acting moments of Damon's career. I fucking just lost my shirt. That is the face everyone makes when they get destroyed in poker, blackjack, or, you know, you split six sevens and you just have all your blackjack money in the table. And the dealer deals themselves to six car 21. And you just, the life sinks out of your body and you're just in shock. It's a great face. In poker in particular, I'm not a big blackjack person, but in poker in particular, that feeling when you.

hit a big hand and you're so deluded with euphoria about hitting the hand, you don't realize there's a better hand out there. And then when you see that it's been cracked, is the most crushing, non-important thing that can happen to you in life. It sucks so much. I hate that feeling. So I totally identify with that. Well, there's a sports fan element of that where, you know, like if Marco Bell and

Ellie had made the three in the corner against the Celtics and instead of accounting as a two, like those, or like the Case Keenom pass. And that's when you make the Mike McDee face. Yes. The Mike McDee face is a face. All the throwaway poker lines have aged beautifully. I just love all of them. The flop, the nut, all that shit.

It's just great. And I feel like I actually understand the lingo, partly because of this movie. And then the final, what's aged the best for me? Damon and Norton at really fun times of their careers. We mentioned the Damon movies. Norton basically arrives with Paramal Fear. He does American History Acts, which is one of the most interesting actor performances of the last 25 years. Quite a movie to go back to now, too.

It's got some interesting tension. He transformed himself in a lot of different ways and has never really been that guy again in a movie. I guess 25th hours, a combo of that guy, a touch of that guy with a lot of worm crossed with some life experience. So he does those two. He is rounders. and then he has Fight Club, which is another one of the most interesting movies the last 25 years.

Those are four like, oh, geez. There's two others that you skip in there, too. Everyone Says I Love You, which is second movie. He works with Woody Allen on a terrible musical. And then The People versus Larry Flint, I think he was nominated for an Oscar for that. So.

That movie has an age well. I haven't seen it in a long time, though. I remember liking it. I remember liking it. And it's actually that movie kind of set the template because there are two guys who wrote that. I think Larry Krasuski and Scott. Alexander are their names. Those are the guys who wrote the OJ Ryan Murphy Show and they wrote

Ed Wood and they wrote all these biopics over the years. And that has become like a replicable thing on TV now. And Larry Flint was one of the first movies to do it in that style that like big picture, like clever, fun but controversial biopic story. Man in the Moon was like that. Yeah, there was this bio-pick run. Yeah. Those movies don't, they don't really make those movies anymore. I don't think they make money. Yeah. Or their 13 episode things. It made me think though, the Damon Norton, the point of their careers they're in. And this happens with like basketball too. You just have these talent kind of clusters.

And you go back and you think about 96, 97, 98. You just had a lot of great fucking actors. Yes. From, yeah, I would say if you're doing the fantasy draft, I think Leo, Damon, and Norton are probably the top three or three of the top five. But you also had Brad Pitt in there. Yeah, Affleck is obviously at the same time. who I think kind of gravitated toward these big picture popcorn movies right away

and wasn't really ready to explore the acting part. But, and then you had like, you had like the school ties and you had dazed and confused. You had these big feeder movies. You had Vince Vaughn sitting there. Nobody knew what kind of career he was going to have. I don't know. It was just this really fertile time for movies. Weirdly, no black actors.

It was all white actors. I don't know why. No black actors who really went to the stratosphere. I mean, Hallie Barry, I guess, at this time, starts to emerge. Yeah, I'm just talking about actors. Yeah. I mean, Clooney too. Clooney in the mid to late 90s is really when he gets really famous.

I mean, and then I would have, by the way, if we were doing this 20 years ago, I would have said Matthew Perry was going to be in there. Yeah. I mean, there were some others. Walberg emerges at this time. Will Smith. I think this is right when Will Smith really takes off. Oh, there you go.

Will Smith. Perfect. Yeah, Walberg had boogie nights. Yep. And then, God, there's one more in there you made me think of. A TV. Matthew Perry. Oh, Jim Carrey.

Jim Carrey, yeah. It was a, this is when... I would say that's one of the best talent clusters we had, because all those guys are like 35 and under, basically. They, yeah. I mean, if you're talking like 93 to 99. Yeah. Because you think about, like, the Godfather,

where Brando and Pacino and those guys have talked about it, where they're at Pacino, James Con, Duval, John Cazale, they're all on the set and they'll idolize Brando. And they have this whole budding generation. De Niro's part of it. And then that becomes a generation. Right. I don't think we think of the 90s that way, but we just had a lot of dudes that went on to stuff.

I think a lot of those people don't get, a lot of the people that were talking about don't get credit as actors. They get credit as movie stars. And this is when the movie star system kind of came roaring back. Yeah. And it was like the cover of Entertainment Weekly was the most important place to be. And this was when Jim Carrey was getting $20 million a movie. and that was a huge story. And people like, the system was still built

to make somebody like Matt Damon succeed. Yeah. And he really went for it and got it. Ed Norton took a little bit of a left turn. Ed Norton always made interesting, odd choices. Like, right after he makes that little string of movies in the mid-90s, he directs his first movie Keeping the Faith, which is kind of a strange comedy

about religion that a lot of people like, including The Ringer's Juliet-Lidman, but I didn't love. And he makes the score, this weird heist movie with De Niro. and Death to Smoochie and then 25th hour and 25th hour

was probably the best movie he made of the 2000s. I agree. That's one of my favorite movies. I felt like he had five or six of those. Yeah. Yeah, he had some good ones. I don't know what happened.

The illusionist. That was a cool movie. I like the illusionist. Yeah. But he never really had the Al Pacino or like Gene Hackman career that I wanted him to have. Yeah.

And maybe he still will. he's obviously still working and making movies. What's fun about Worm is just it's such a unique to him character. I don't know how many people could have done it. It's almost out of the John Cazale of 1970s where kind of this lovable scumbag. Like I feel like John Cazale could have done that, right? There's certain actors who, it's like that guy's scum, but I'm rooting for him and I'm not positive why. There's a little Frato and Worm.

A little bit. Yeah. Anything else age the best for you? I think the movie like looks surprisingly cool and not dated for 1998. Yeah. It's also a pretty good New York movie. I found myself trying to figure out. Oh, that's good.

I like that New York age the best. Yeah. Like it still looks like the New York that I remember that I think of when I think of it. I found myself trying to place places as I was watching it and what was real and what wasn't real. And, you know, the Chesterfield is obviously based on a club, I think, called the Mayfair. Yeah. those guys used to play out all the time.

And I was only in a room like that one time when I was living in New York, but it is what that room looked like. It was like a slightly nicer red leather version of the room, the private room that I played in. And so it just, it kind of has like that seedy but exciting New York City feeling. I think one more thing I forgot to mention was Russians as villains, as age the best. That's really good. 1998, the Cold War had been ended eight years earlier. Russia was in a free fall in a lot of ways.

But now in the last 20 years, Russian, much more villainous, much more believable that, you know, you have these dudes, this underground network. Oh, yeah. A little more villainous. Roman and Maurice and Teddy KGB in the whole group. What's age the worst? Gretchen Mal is the stereotypical wet blanket girlfriend. This was a staple in the 80s and 90s, especially in sports movies of one of the ways to kind of undermine a character, give him some tension. You just had a girlfriend or a wife who didn't believe in what he was doing, basically.

Yes. So you start there. I had my Mount Rushmore for Wet Blanket Girlfriends was Adrian Balbo and Rocky 4. Just quits on him. Doesn't even go to Russia. She'd been through a lot. It's bullshit. Okay.

I'm not worried about Adrian. I'm still going to go fuck yourself Adrian mode. Like doesn't even shows up belatedly in Russia and I'm supposed to be excited. Like you should have gone with them. It's your husband. It's going to fight Drago. What are you doing? Okay.

My Rifleiner and Hoosiers. Yeah, this is the number one. Incredible wet blanket. I wrote a whole EAS PIN the magazine column way back when about just how awful she was in that movie. And I have no idea what Gene Hackman liked her, unless she was like sneaky, hot in person. I don't know if this is necessarily a problem of Rounders, but, and I have read you writing about this for many years. I think it's because a lot of men don't know how to write female characters. So what they do is they take their own anxieties and frustrations in their own marriages or their own relationships or the things that bother them about women.

and then they use that as a way to create the tension in their character and be like, this is the person who's really holding you back. Right. And it's like, that's just, whether that's true or not for people, it kind of doesn't matter. But it is why I think you get all these female characters that you're just like, what is this woman doing in this movie? The last member of the Mount Rushmore is Ned Braden's wife and Slapshot, which is a 40-plus-year movie, but tough hang.

Even like, it kind of throws it at Paul Newman in one scene. So here's the defense for Coppomen and Levine. Yeah. And they revealed this in the rounder. back and forth I did with them. Originally, Damon's girlfriend was only supposed to be in three scenes. And he had this other character

that they wrote called Atkinson, who was Mike's best friend from law school. He was a counterpoint to Worm, kind of the alternate path for where Worm could go, a friend he could count on. The studio made them combine Joe and Atkinson and basically boost up

the Joe character to give her more scenes. And at that point, It's like, well, she's not essential to the movie at all. She's just kind of been Worms away. And that's her new up with Joe. Not a great performance by Gretcheno either, but she rallied in the 2000s. Yeah.

Fortunately, but she is just flat out bad in this movie and not likable. Tricky to discuss. This was around the time of the famous Vanity Fair cover where she was deemed like the next new ingenue. I think everybody's like, what? And everybody was like, who is this? I think she had maybe only made like Donnie Brasco at this point. Yeah. She isn't very good.

It's the only time in the movie where I'm like, what is happening? This movie has lost its rhythm. Yeah. So that just has an age way. They fight through it. Another thing that's what's age the worst. The card scene with the judges, which we both really like, I'm just not convinced Mike McDee can stand there for 14 seconds and read everyone's hand.

I know people are brilliant. Coppulman and Levine defend it. They claim they've seen it happen. Let's hear that scene. The fuck you know what we all got. Summer clerkship in your office says I know what you're holding. I don't bet with jobs like that. Let's just say I'll put you at the top of the list if you're right.

Okay. Well, you were looking for that third three, but you forgot the Professor Greenfolded it on 4th Street and now you're representing that you have it. The DA made his two-pair, but he knows they're no good. Judge Caputon was trying to squeeze out a diamond flush, but he came up short, and Mr. Eisen is futilely hoping that his queens are going to stand there.

stuff. So like I said, the Dean's bed is $20. Well, kiss my ass. Keep my ass. All right. So again, he's staying in there for maybe eight to 14 seconds. I'm just not buying it. I've seen people do stuff like this, but never exactly this. And after studying everybody for five to seven hours, not 14 seconds. Yes. Usually you need more time. It does set up that he's a savon.

I can't figure out what game they're playing there, though. I'm sure somebody who knows more about games that are not, because they're not playing Texas Hold'em. They're playing, like I said, Oklahoma or seven-card stud, some game where there's a lot of cards on the table. And so based on the number of cards on the table, you have a better sense of being able to say, this is what this person needs to be successful. The other thing is, we never see the judge's card. So maybe he got a couple of things wrong, but we don't actually know. It just seems like he got everything right. It's a reach.

I'm fine with it. Okay. Martin Landau's character I described as a cross between a law school professor, professor, Confucius, the fairy godmother, and Red Arbeck. That sounds right. I agree. It's not a great character, but also is essential. Needs to be in it.

He only has a couple scenes. I didn't nominate this for most rewatchable scene, but I do love the scene where he tells him the story of leaving the yeshiva. Which time? Which time when he tells the story? When he meets him at the bar and he's pouring him gin, always gin. I really like that scene a lot. You know, movies like this need an old guy.

You always used to say that about Grantland. You need an old guy. Yeah. And like this movie... Charlie Pierce was our old guy. He was, yeah. Yeah. I remember when he left the Yeshiva.

Mike McDee not hooking up with Famkee Jansen is the biggest flaw. Not only of this movie, but maybe of my life. I've been waiting for this. His girlfriend moves out. I've confronted compliment and Levine about it multiple times. His girlfriend moves out. He's got nothing. nothing going on. He's just in his apartment. She comes over because the worms run up a tab.

He's fucking home watching some old world series of poker. And she makes a hard pass at him. And he's just like, now maybe now's not the time. It's inexplicable. It's indefensible. And I hate it. You know the whole theory of the manic pixie dream girl, right? That came out after Penny Lane and almost famous and a lot of movies that Zoe Deschanel made in the early 2000. This like beautiful, sweet, interested in you imaginary female character in a movie who just like is too good to be true that there were a lot of them in this like five to 10 year period. Famke Jansen's character in this movie is the manic poker dream girl. She is like everything that guys that are obsessed with poker want. She's beautiful.

Three years removed. A beautiful crazy Russian? Yes, removed from being a bond girl. She just was a bond girl in one of the Pierce Brosnan movies. she loves poker so much that not only does she work at the Chesterfield but as you said earlier she can recount hands

from the World Series 10 years prior She's like, oh, you're watching Johnny Chinn? This was that even on TV. And all she wants to do is hang out, have sex, probably drink, and play cards. Yeah. And that's what, that's who Mike McKee is.

That's what he wants to do. Now, the case against that obviously is that one, he loves Joe, yada, yada, yada. Yeah, that really. He's trying to change his life. He's trying to go straight. And Petra, it seems like they had a relationship of some kind before this. And she represents the old version of him.

And he doesn't want to go back. Whether that is a good choice even just for that one night is maybe not for me to say. Rewatching the movie, it's like they should just fuck. What's the downside here? Coppomen and Levine admit it's their biggest mistake in the movie. Great. Maybe they could CGI a sex scene in there for the 25th. Maybe for the reunion, yeah.

That to me is the what's age is the worst, actually. I just can't buy any explanation for them not hooking up. Your explanation, it's fine. You put some thought into it. I did. I did. No, I think he's like, fuck it. I'm having sex with him.

Okay, okay. She's too good looking. She's beautiful. I love family. Great job by her in this movie. Casting what ifs. I only have one. Neve Campbell turned down the role of Joe.

That's all I got for you. I looked for other stuff, but it seems like they were locked in on Damon and Norton the whole time. And there's not a lot of, oh, this almost happened stuff with this movie. Movie would have worked better with Neff Campbell. I agree. Just a better actress. Better actress and a really nice point of her career. Yeah.

Party Five still cruising, post-Scream. She's inherently sympathetic, which is what you need Joe to be. You have to believe that she's trying with Mike McDee to get him to go straight. You have to care about her point of view. And with Neff Campbell, you probably would have. Yeah. The Deanne Waiters Award, it's just loaded this year for this movie. It's sometimes the Deion Waders is a hit or miss, the biggest heat check in the movie.

John Malkovich is Teddy KGB. Yep. Famkee Jansen. John Turturro is Kanish. Martin Landau with only three scenes. He's not going to win, but it has to be mentioned. And the guy who played Grandma, Michael Rospoli, who we're going to get to with the Joey Pantz Award. There's only one answer here.

Yeah, there's only one answer. Pay this man is fucking money. Come on. It's KGB. He's in three scenes? He's in the opening scene. He's in the closing scene. I think that's it.

Is that it? I think that's it. Incredible. So for NBA box score, it's 12 minutes, and he has 35 points. Yep. And I think he has 10 rebounds and 7 box shots. Shout out to Famke Jansen, though. I love her.

great. You can make a case you should have just been Joe and they just should have figured out another Russian character. I don't think we should overlook Kanish either. Kanish has got some of the greatest lines in the movie. He represents, I think, what real poker players, a lot of lifetime kind of poker players are like. Keep grinding out that rent money, Kenish.

The tension between him and Worm is awesome. He's based on this real guy who Koppelman and Levine wrote about in 2014 named Joel Bagels, who was a guy who was clearly like a valet for those two guys. when they were getting obsessed with poker and then started writing the movie. It sounds like a lot of the lines, women are the rake, is his real,

is Joel Bagel's real life line. And, I don't know, Kanish is a great character. That confrontation between Kanish and Mike McDee at the sauna when he won't give him the money. I love that scene so much and stuff they say to you. Can we hear that actually, Zach?

I give you two grand. What's that by you? A day? Nah, I give it to you, I'm wasting it. That's fucking great. You did it to yourself.

You had to put it all in line for some Vegas pipe dream. I took a risk. I took a risk. You, you see all the angles. You never have the fucking stones to play one. Stones? You're a little punk.

I'm not playing for the thrill of fucking victory here. I will rent, alimony, child support. I play for money. My kids eat. I got stones enough not to chase cards, actions, a fucking pipe dreams of winning the World Series on ESPN. You want me to call some people?

Try and buy you some time, I will. place to stay or the truck, no problem. But about the money, I got to do this. I got to say no. I like Kanish. I almost feel like it's not a heat check because he's in too many scenes. Yeah, that's fair.

DeMalkovich is in two scenes, maybe two and a half. He's the ultimate deion. Joey Pants Award. A lot of nominees, a lot of that guys, just in the random poker scenes. But shout out to Lenny Clark, who's now, I think people know it's Lenny Clark. Mark, but back then he was just this guy you only knew if he lived in Boston.

And he's in one of the poker scenes, has a couple lines. That one was good. And then Michael Rospoly, his grandma, I got to be honest, I think I'm in the 99 percentile with this stuff. I didn't know that his name was Michael Rospoli until I looked it up and then did more research and it was like, this was the guy I lost the bakeoff to James Gandoffini for Tony Subrano. The key rispoly fact.

Yeah. And I didn't put it all together that grandma lost to Tony Sparano to. Grandalphini. That's it. It's an amazing what if. And he went on to be Jackie Appreel in the show. He still had a big role in the show. That is a really important part. Consolation Press. It truly, I mean, his guy's life probably would have been completely different. He's a good actor. Grandma's a weird character, though. Not sure what his deal was with Teddy. What was his arrangement with Teddy KGB? There's some questions. I can't understand really, though, how the money stuff works at the end. Like, is Grandma supposed to be upset? Whose money did he lose? Like, did Mike

Do you walk away with his money? Why was grandma upset if he's getting his money anyway? Yeah. He got paid off. I couldn't figure any of that stuff out. I asked how the whole, listen, I don't know a lot about the underworld, but the whole, I took the guy's juice and now it's this. It just seems completely arbitrary. Yes.

It's like, hey, you owe me 15K? It's like, why? Is there some formula that we have to abide by? The numbers to shift around a little bit on how much worm owes to. I'll wait for nitpicks on this one. Okay. Half-Fast internet research mentioned that in the original draft

Joe was only in three scenes. All law school scenes filmed at Rutgers University. Oh, interesting. In my head, I thought it was John Jay that was what was based on. I think they call it like city law school or something in the name of the school. Malcovich acquired his convincing accent

by having a Russian woman read all of his lines first and then mimic her accent. Let me ask you this. Is it convincing, though? I'm just reading what was in the internet research. Okay. In the original version of the script, Mike McDermott was going to make a move on Phil Helmuth. Oh my God.

In the Atlantic City big money game, not Johnny Chan. Thank the motherfucking Lord. I never heard that before. Yeah. Thank God. You hate Helmuth. I don't hate Helmuth. I'm so glad it was Johnny Chan.

Helmuth is one of the great characters in sports history, in my opinion. One of the great figures in the history of all sports. He's certainly polarizing. It's like Skip Bayless Cross with poker. I live for guys like that, not because I like him or think he's a good man. I do think he's a good poker. You're just glad he exists. It's amazing he exists.

He makes poker so much more interesting. To this day, he's still, at the World Series this year, he pulled some wild bullshit where he called a guy out for no reason. Like, that's great that that's happening. That kind of drama is good. I'm pro-hielmuthy, too, and I find him annoying. I think Johnny Chan is just one of the biggest winners of this movie. When we do who won the movie, he's like in the top four. because he won the World Series of Poker

during the time nobody gave his shit. Twice. Twice. His name is incredible. It's like the perfect poker name. We could sit in a fucking log cabin in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota for a year and not come up

with Johnny Chan as a poker name. It's so good. Johnny Chan. Poker is a sport full of people with amazing names and amazing nicknames. So that's part of it. But two, you're right. He's like the Muhammad Ali of boxing.

He like stands alone in the poker world. Because of this movie. And if they make the movie 10 years later, it's Phil Ivey. Yes. And Phil Ivy gets this Johnny Chan spot. 100%. Who is the guy who loses to him?

Eric, uh, Eric Seidel. Eric Seidel, one of the absolute greatest poker players of all time. Huge loser. Seidel's still playing professionally, still making shit loads of money in cash games. I don't care. But he looks like a fucking yokel in this movie because Johnny Chan pulls his pants down. He must hate this movie so much. He must.

Seidel is, hey man, Sion Runners. He's just like his teeth are gristling. A Counting Crow song at the end, not on any album, not even on Spotify. I think we know how Copplin feels about Counting Crows. Baby I'm a big star now, which is actually a good song. I was making a Counting Crow's Spotify playlist because we're coming up on 25 years. I want to have Adam Duritz on my pod actually and just dive into some of these songs. Let's go.

You're going to tease that right now? Yeah. He's invited. Come on anytime, Adam Duritz. Sweet. Baby I'm a big star now. Really no record of it anywhere. It's on YouTube.

I'm looking at it on Spotify. It's on Spotify? Yeah. Where? It's on Saturday nights and Sunday mornings. Oh, I'm just terrible. I can't find stuff. Well, anyway, it never made a Count of Crows album,

and it's one of the best 20 songs they've made. It's a good, nice little ending. Great song. I like the double meaning of baby. I'm a big star now. Oh, yeah. Matt Damon and Edward Norton played the $10,000 buy-in Texas Holdem championship event at the 98 World Series Poker in Vegas.

Matt Damon had pocket cake. was knocked out by pocket aces by Doyle Brinson. No kidding. Is that a true story? It's half-ass internet research. It's on the internet. Wow. Yeah.

For those of you who don't, one of the great little tidbits... Doyle Brinson's like the Bill Russell of poker. Yes. One of the greatest players of all time. One of the most famous hands of all time, 210 is the Doyle Brunson. In the opening shots of the movie,

I think when we're seeing Mike McDee's house when he's pulling the money out of kind of all of the safe spaces he's found. One of the places he pulls it out of is a book, and that book is Doyle Brunson's Super System, which is a book I read when I was 18 and devoured, and probably doesn't make as much sense for poker strategy, but is a really cool thing if people are looking to learn more about poker. Brunson writes about it really well. You know my rule, if you have something named after you, you've done something well. He's a poker player who has a hand named after him. But he won the World Series of poker with 210, which is amazing. Not one of my

favorite hands. Let's take one more brick. Let's talk about all the great ringer podcast network stuff we have coming this month. Football heating up. Ringer NFL show five times a week. Ryan Rissillo every Tuesday night. Dual threat. College football and pro football. Against all odds with Cousin Sal.

Gambling stuff on Wednesday. If you like gambling, if you like rounders, if you like poker, that's happening. We had the Ringer MLB show heating up with the baseball playoffs coming. We had the Ringer NBA show. It's back. We have a bunch of pop culture stuff, ranging from Larry Wilmore to Dave Chang's show, to House of Carbs, to The Watch, to all the great stuff on Channel 33, to binge mode Harry Potter.

And we also have our music podcast on Shuffle, which I went on last week to tell the kids to get off my lawn. We have a slew of podcasts. You can check them all on the ringer.com slash podcasts or on Apple podcast or on Spotify. Just put in Ringer. Things will come up. Don't forget about my podcast, too. Bill Simmons podcast, three times a week.

So yeah, we love doing the rewatchables, but we have other great stuff for you to listen to as well. Check it out. All right, we're back. Apex Mountain. I'm excited for this one. Yes. Matt Damon, obviously not. No.

Because the movie wasn't a hit. It did make me wonder what Matt Damon's Apex Mountain really was. Did we do this in the Goodwill Hunting episode? I can't remember. It's interesting. I think. Probably that firstborn movie that just made. makes a shitload of money and establishes himself as the A-plus franchise, whatever.

That's a good call. Ed Norton. I don't think this was his apex amount. I think Fight Club was because at that point he'd had a body of work and Riders was getting some buzz. But we're close. He's on his way up the mountain. Also agree with that.

Gretchen Mall, definitely not. No. Probably the notorious Betty Page for Gretchen Mall. That was her big comeback. Johnny Chan, 100%. Yes. No way. 100% yes.

Johnny Chan won two World Series of poker in a row. This was his third title, basically. He wins two, and now he's immortalized forever in this movie as pulling the greatest poker move. Look at the patience. Look at him weighed out his guy. Oh, my God. It's like, what's better than that?

Doesn't he have the exact same hand that Mike sucks out Teddy KGB with? I think he might. Isn't it the wheel? John Tortoro, no. I don't know what John Tortoro's Apex Mepard. Mountain is. This is a great character, though. I think this is the same year that he does. It's got to be some Coen Brothers. Yeah.

Jesus, which is pretty incredible. That's quite a one-to-punch as like, because he's one of the great supporting actors of all times. Maybe that's maybe the Rounders Lobowski combo. It's probably Barton Fink is probably his Apex Mountain. You know, that's a few years before that. It's an iconic movie. He's the star. You're not a

Barton Fink guy. Malcovich. I'm not a Coen Brothers guy. Malcovich, Dangerous Liaisons was his Apex Mountain. Wow. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Not con air. Now, I'll fight anyone who thinks otherwise.

Because it'll come off killing fields. He's great in killing fields. He's like really, really. And that movie's a little dated, but it's still pretty powerful. Yep. I haven't seen that in 20 years. And he's awesome in it. His character is fucking great in that movie.

And then he has this nice run. And then dangerous liaisons, him and Glenn Close, they are so over the top. And he's so. I don't feel like that performance gets enough credit. It's a fun movie. It's a really fun movie. It's actually, it's never on either. I would watch it right now if it was on.

Anybody else, Apex? What do you think his Apex Mountain was, Malcovic? I don't know. Looking back at his career, I mean, you know, he's obviously one of the great stage directors of all time, too. Rounders has got to be, oh, I know what it is. What? It's being John Malkovich.

Oh, that's pretty good. Yeah, you're right. Fuck. There's an entire movie that is dedicated. That's like a cherry on the Hot Forge Sunday. Anybody else for Apex Mountain? What do you think about Copplement and Levine? I think Billions is their Apex Mountain.

Right now. Yeah. Their dream in life was to have a show that, where they're at some party and Kevin Durant comes up to them and says they love their show. That's all they ever wanted in life. That's good. Yeah. This is another great category.

Who would have been the best add to this movie? Danny Traow, Steve Bouchemey, or Michael K. Williams? I think the easy, quick answer is Bouchemie? Yes. I wouldn't sleep on Michael K. Williams. Not a lot of diversity in this movie, and he easily could have been thrown in to any poker scene. By the way, it could have also played grandma.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Could Michael K. Williams have been Worm? Wow.

That's... But that goes to like Black Rounders. I knew you were going there. I would love Black Rounders. Can they make Black Rounders? Sure. Let's make Black. The Ringer Films presents Black Rounders.

Black Rounders would be incredible. Michael K. Williams is worm. Who's Mike McDee? Is Michael K. Williams too old to be worm? Probably. Shit. All right. We'll go back to the drawing board on that.

So you say Bouchemi. I think what you said is right. It's the easy one. You could just see him at that table at the Taj when they're all together. You know, you can see him at the drawing. Chesterfield. He just fits into this movie. He's a New York guy.

Mark Ruffalo's, they knew! For the most overacted scene and or scenes. Grandma's scenes are rough. I'm not quite sure what to make a grandma. I don't like the dog abuse as a dog lover. I don't like how he treats the pit bulls. Yeah, it's like they, it's a quickie way to make us not like him. Yeah.

But it's almost like evil. Yeah. He's like, is this guy evil now? And if he is evil, why doesn't he just kill worm? I'm a little reluctant to ask this, but what exactly did he even do to the dog? Because the camera cuts away. Oh, yeah, they did. Did you smack it?

Something bad. Something bad happened, though. Do you have another overactor for me? Well, I mean, I think is it possible to be both to win the they knew award and the heat check award? Because there's a case that KGB. You're going there? We're doing this now? It's like a little bit of a reach.

Too grand. All right, I'll call the two grand. I'll gamble. Don't splash the pot. You're on a draw, Mike. Go away. This one is not good way. And in my club, I will splash the pot

whenever the fact I please. Okay. It's a little bit of a, I'm trying too hard. And it's not because Malcovic isn't captivating. He's fucking captivating in the movie. And everything he says I laugh at, but I'm not sure if I should be laughing.

at everything he says. There has to be some menace. There has to be something that scares you about Teddy. And in a lot of ways, he's like, kind of a oddball, like shut in, poker playing, Oreo eating,

quasi-Russian. And his accent is super weird and exaggerated. And that makes the movie fun. But I'm not sure that it's good. So I had this in age the best and forgot to say it before. Teddy KGB's accident.

accent I wrote ridiculous in 1998. I kind of love it in 2018. I think I'm used to it is why I love it. Yeah. But I remember in the movie theater, it was the biggest flaw of the movie. It was like, what the fuck is Malcovic doing? What is this accent?

It was so over the top. It's such a choice, you know? Like, it's in a way, in a movie that feels like pretty natural. Yeah. He's completely unnatural. But I'm not even criticizing it. Like, I think it works and it's fun. I'll say 20 years later, 100% works.

I actually love it. I like, it's so distinct. It's fun to imitate. Very aggressive. It's almost like a parody of bad Russian accents. I'm actually proud of ourselves that we haven't done too many. That was the first one. They're coming.

Pickin' it's. We'll start here. You feeling satisfied now, Teddy? Because I can go on busting you up all night. This is what Teddy KGB says after he takes 60K of somebody who might be like the head of the Russian mafia for all we now. I just think he's killed immediately. I don't think he gets out of the Chesterfield at that point.

You're going to taunt the Russian warlord that you just like fucking, you just stole a hand from him and took his money and you're going to fucking dance on his grave. Like, what are you doing, Mike McD? This is a good point. What a heat check. All right. I'm laying this down, Teddy, top two parrots, a monster hand. I'm going to lay that down.

He says that after he finally. realizes the Oriotel. I have two questions about the Orioletel. It's a controversial moment in the movie. Okay. Question number one. Mike McDee is so good at poker, it takes them 14 seconds to read every judge's hand

and face at this judge's game. He plays with Teddy KGB for 20 hours. Oriel Tell never clicks. She misses it each time. I don't have a defense. It's the biggest flaw in the movie. Teddy KGB is so good at poker. He's just in the basement cleaning out people.

Has the most basic towel I've ever seen in my life. If I eat this Oreo, if I don't like my hand, I won't eat it. If I do like my hand, I'll eat it. And just cleans out people for years. It's an interesting choice. I think if the movie was less good or less sophisticated, it wouldn't seem that weird. Because like we were saying at the top of the show, most poker movies are so obvious with everything that they do. Like, think of like Casino Royale where like everybody at the table has fucking five kings

or whatever. Yeah. This movie is so nuanced and it tries so hard and does so well at showing you what a lot of poker is actually like that this one thing, the tell, which is such an important thing, and they do such a good job in that's seen at Taj with all those guys. Yeah. And they show people like touching their face and tapping their cards and the nervous ticks that they have at the table, stuff that like I picked up on immediately and try so hard

not to do when I play because I'm so mindful of it. The fact that there's one that is so obvious. in the villain of the character is just, it's just kind of nags at me? On the other hand, I saw this movie in the movie theater. They're making it for an audience that doesn't really know poker,

and it went right over my head. I didn't even realize that until the fourth time I watched it. Really? Yeah. See, I remember even specifically at the beginning watching it and being like, oh, he didn't eat the cookie.

But you knew more about poker than I did. Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. It is, I think it is the most criticized thing about the movie, the obviousness of Teddy's tell. And also, you know, I was talking with somebody about this recently. The fact that Mike McDee basically tells him he knows his tell, in one sense, is effective. Well, so that was, I had that next.

Go ahead. Let's talk about it. Why does he tell him? So I used to, for a long time, I used to complain about this and I thought it was a problem because he's like, I don't have all night. But like, he did have all night? You know, it kind of makes no sense. If you found out his tell, why don't you just annihilated him on every hand? He could probably get his money in like 10 hands. It would be like Belichick in some football game,

finding out the tell of some defense, and then just going across the sideline and telling the other coach? Yeah. I figured out what you're doing with your cornerback. The counter argument here. It's a mind game, right? The counter argument here, which I think is credible and makes sense, and I bet this is what they were thinking is.

And Mike Muti says, like, he rattled him. He rattled KGB. Even KGB could be rattled, a player as good as him and is intimidating as him. And the minute he's rattled, his game falls apart. He got no confidence, all that aggressive. And so when his game falls apart, Mike can really attack and really get after him. And I guess it's a calculated choice. But I don't know.

I mean. Because he says normally I would have gone up busting him all night, but. So then he decides to bust him immediately? Like it's one of those things where if you catch somebody's tell and you can throw them off their game by telling them that you know their tell. The other thing too is like when to show your hand when you're laying something down is a very interesting strategy. And Mike's showing Teddy his hand when he lays it down.

and telling him that he's laying his hand down is one of those things where like, whenever somebody does that at a table in Vegas when I'm playing, I'm always like, that guy's a fucking idiot. That guy doesn't have enough security in his game to know that he shouldn't show anybody his hand ever, unless you've been playing for 10 hours and you want to show somebody

that you actually laid one down and had it. It's a great line. Very good. Laying this down, Teddy. It's a monster. It's a monster hand. I'm going to lay this down. How is Worm not a smoker?

Has anyone? Any movie character ever been a more likely smoker? I didn't smoke than Worm. I actually did some research on this. Could have put this in half-Fest internet research? Decided not to. It would be saved up for right here. Okay.

Ed Norton, anti-smoking. Didn't want the one to be a smoker. Didn't want to have smoke cigarettes and all that stuff. Interesting. Doesn't like cigarettes. I think also it works in the plot of the movie because you know he has to play for smokes in the joint when he's in prison. Right. But doesn't even smoke.

So he doesn't smoke. Biggest reach in the movie. Mike McDee's law school professor loans him 10 grand to set up the final scene. The cost is that Mike has to sit through another yeshiva story. I love it, man. Why are you shitting on Martin Landau? It's 10 grand for one more when I was in the yeshiva. I wrote, when I wrote about this movie, I wrote, I actually would have gotten up and

be like, you know what, I don't need the 10 grand. I'm just going to rob a liquor store. I can't sit through another yeshiva story. This is going to be This is kind of bullshity, but I'm just going to put it out there. I think that there's a kind of a weird bond between Irish people and Jewish people.

Okay. And I think that there's a Mike McDee Professor relationship there, the Yeshiva thing, that metaphor, there's a kind of like, I don't know, there's like an underdog thing that those tribes of people agree on.

And that whole storyline makes a lot of sense to me. I grew up with a lot of Jewish guys. I think to throw the Italians in there too. Sure, sure. The ethnic whites, you know. I like it. It's something that makes sense there to me.

So you like the Yeshiva. I just like Petrovsky. I like the old guy. Yeah, Petrovsky, yeah. It was funny when he had, when he kind of circled back on entourage, which had been just dormant of any creativity of anything for like three years. And then the Bob Evans character came back, played by Martin Landau.

That's right. It was like a splash of Petrovsky in him, too? Yeah, just a drop. We should also, we'll never do crimes and misdemeanors for the rewatchables unless it's like season 19. But that movie is incredible and he's incredible in it. Both of our personal favorites. What a movie that is.

All right, another nitpick. We actually have answers for this. Mike McDee starts out the final Teddy Key GGB showdown, 10 grand. How does he end up with 60? Beats Teddy straight up. up for the first 20k, baits him in coming back to the table. Why isn't it just 40K? So Coppam and Levine when I did the curious guy with them, they said they made it clear, and it's subtle, but they made it clear that Teddy KGB be reloaded because you see more

reload chip things on that thing. Right. And they actually fought for scenes where they reloaded, but there was like only so far they could go with the minutia of poker before it actually just became boring. It's like, hey, he reloaded. Here's, it's like, it's like, like just move the thing along. Makes sense. So 60K, he finally ends up winning. It seems like it should be 40, but it's 60. There's something weird about Teddy KGB be re-bu buying, though.

Yeah. You know, buying back into his own, like once Mike McDee had 40K, why didn't they just call it a day? Or maybe he was down. Maybe he reloaded to double up on a hand or who knows. Yeah. Best quote, what a category this is. This isn't always a great category.

I'm going to rip through these. This is beautiful. Welcome to the Chesterfield South. You always told me that this was the rule. Rule number one. Throw in your cards when you know you can't win. Fold the hand. Good life advice.

Truly. Could be a senior year book quote. Another senior year book quote, you can't lose what you don't put in the middle, but you can't win much either. I think I said this to John Skipper when I was fighting for more headcounts for Grantland. What happened?

I said, John, we only have 51 headcounts right now. You got sucked out by pocket aces on that one, Bill. I did. And in my club, I will splash the pot whenever the fuck I please. I can't even do the Teddy KGB. That's a great one. The splash the pot, all that, the tension. That arguably could have been in a what's age the best.

Pot splashing. 15 grand in five days. I could do that. I've gone on runs like that before. I love that the confidence. 15 grand in five days. Don't sleep. I forgot to mention this in the nitpicking.

Why isn't Worm playing with him? Why aren't they doubling their chances to make more money? Worm is clearly good at poker. He says, I want to play this straight. But why? Well, I think he doesn't trust Worm and that ultimately his instincts are right, because Worms, sits down at the cop game and he gets his ass kick because he's a cheater. If you're too careful, your whole life can become a fucking grind.

Another great senior book quote, you keep grinding out that rent money, Joe. It's noble work you're doing. What a cut down that is. Great. Really enjoy it. Very aggressive. You're a new man and you won't be pushed around.

Teddy KGB. You're really getting all your McEvich in now. Call me if you need a lawyer. I will. And I will. I don't know. I like the ending. Grutch and Mall.

You're right, Teddy. That ace didn't help me. I flopped the nut straight. Love that. I think the best quote of the movie, hanging around, hanging around. Hanging around. Kids got allegation.

blood. I've used that a bunch of times. I just fucking love it. I think that's the best quote in the movie. Boy, I mean, this could be an entire podcast. Plus the other ones we have. Let's go play some fucking cards. We've already did some in there. I think alligator blood is the one that's lingered. That's probably, yeah, hanging around is something that I'm saying to this day. It's like the Pats, the Bell-check, down 10 against Baltimore in the playoffs, alligator

bud. Just kind of transfers to other forms of life. Kids got alligator blood. Can't get rid of him. Probably unanswerable questions. Are we sure Kanish wasn't the smartest of all these people in the hero of it? He owned his own business. He grinded out that rent money.

Smart enough not to give Mike McDee 10 grand. He was probably never going to see again. Stayed away from Worm. He also has like one of the great speeches too in the movie when he says... Oh, with Mike McDee? When Mike McDee tells him about he went head to head with Jan? Yeah, exactly. When Ted against Johnny Chan?

Yeah. When he's in the Turkish bath with him and he tells him like, it's just, it's not about this. It's not about the World Series of poker. It's about making a living, you know, like, I don't know, Kanishi. And you get the impression that, you know, Kanisha's in the Turkish bath. You get the impression. He's actually probably lives okay. He's divorced.

He's got alimony. He's got child support and all this stuff. But still, truck business. He doesn't work. You know, he owns this truck. He plays cards. It's funny, Mike McDee, and it ends with the Mike McDee going to Vegas to take a, try to saying maybe play the World Series of Poker.

At the time, we didn't really have that much experience with the World Series Poker. I knew it's happening. You wouldn't have really watched it because you wouldn't have been able to see the cards. Within five years, that became the dream for basically everybody who played poker. Someday I'm going to the World Series poker, I'm winning. And the ending makes more...

We could have put that in age the best, too. The ending makes so much more sense that he's going off to play the World Series poker. It's great. If anybody... I have to recommend positively Fifth Street to anybody who hasn't read it, wants to know a little bit about the history of the World Series and Binion's Casino. And I think it's- God, that book's like, what, 16, 17 years old now? It's 15 years old now.

Yeah. And it's written by a guy named James McManus. And it's one of the great, like, crime books and also one of the great sports books and really, really good story. And, you know, it's five full years after this, after rounders came out. But we tried to hire him for Grantland. McManus, yeah. Yeah.

He's a great writer. Johnny Chance Cameo, where does it rank in the all-time greatest sports-related cameos. The bar is Hulk Hogan and Rocky 3. Is this meaning athletes playing athletes? Or is this include like Kareem Abdul Javar and airplane? You have Kareem and Airplane. Xavier, McDaniel, and singles.

Incredible. Love that one. Larry Bird and Blue Chips. Pretty good. Bob Watson and Cesar Cedano and Bad News Bears and Breaking Training. They literally flipped the pot at the end. Yeah. I think Johnny Chain ranks up there.

Whatever else you want to name. He's up there with all. I think you got the wrong one in blue chips. I think it's Kuzi in blue chips with the left-handed free-throats. But that's not a cameo. He's actually in it. Yeah. He's acting in that.

He cries at the end. Yeah, that's true. He should have been nominated for an Oscar. What a flex by Kuzi. That was amazing. Incredible. Man, all the free throws is up there. You know, Chan doesn't actually get to talk.

He mouths words, but Mike who sees as he does. He does. You don't hear much about Johnny Chan these days. Is this the best gambling movie ever made? It's not my favorite. It's my favorite poker movie. My favorite gambling movie is California Split, which is a Robert Altman movie from the 70s

with George Siegel and Elliot Gould. It is a really good movie about what happens when you make a friend who's a gambler and how that's bad for you. And I have a friend like one of the guys in California split and he's bad for me. Yeah. It's just a really good movie about friendship

and how it gets fucked up sometimes. Rounders, I have no doubt the compliment in Levine are California split guys. And there's a little bit of Mike McDee in the worm in those two guys. But I think as far as poker movies go, like Rounders is so head and shoulders above everything else. It's not close. I have like five friends like the California Spick. Where do we stand on in the poker game of life, women are the rake there, the fucking rake? What are you talking about?

What's saying? I don't know. There ought to be one. Do you like that? It was iconic 20 years ago. Now we're in the woke era. It's like, oh, tough misogynist. And it hits all these triggers.

And I'm like, I still like that that was Worm's saying. You know, here's the thing with like trying to adjudicate the shit. It was 20 years ago. It was 20 years ago. But not just that, but this is a movie about dirtbags. Yeah. This is how dirtbags talk. You know, she closed her legs too fast.

That's one of worms great lines in the movie. You know. You stole from Chinatown. You know, like that stuff is. is just emblematic of the way that guys are. And whether it's like good or bad, I don't know, but it's not, this isn't a movie about the president of the United States. It's not a movie about somebody in the Navy. It's like, these are card playing prison dwelling dirtbags. Where did Worm go after Binghamton? In my 2013 mailbag on Grantland, I got this question,

sent it to Coppon and Levine, and they answered it. Here's what they wrote. Worm meant it when he said highway time, but he needed to fill his pockets for the road. He found his way to a backroom game in the Bronx far away from KGB's territory. Unfortunately, he forgot that he'd heard about this game from the guy. He'd fleeced for cigarettes in the Prison Hearts game. That guy had been released to, saw a worm and chased him halfway across town on foot. We actually shot that scene, edited it, edited it and screened it too. And it ended up on the cutting room floor. No kidding. Yeah. So that's where Worm went after Binghamton. Okay. I buy it. Here's what they think. This is what they said five years ago, but they think happened with Worm.

He took full advantage of all the scamming opportunities presented by the moneymaker online poker boom. Uh-huh. Joined up with a series of dodgy sites and distant locales promoted, ripped off, profited like mad. And that's where Rounders 2 will pick up. I like it. One more unanswerable question. Are we sure Mike McDee's girlfriend gave Petrovsky the 10 grand? I thought about this too.

Why would Joe do that? How would Petrovsky know? He wouldn't. And also, Mike Binty is like a proven kind of, at least worst case, they're half scumbag. Let's just go back to Petrosky giving him the money in the first place. What the hell is he thinking? Ludacris. A kid who he sees is basically a bad student who doesn't show up on time.

It's a terrible move. Who has a gambling problem. Ten grand is a lot of money now. Imagine if somebody who worked at the ringer who we didn't trust at all who was failing out, asks us for 10 grand. You would never give it to them. I think who would it be? Can we go through the entire staff? No, let's maybe off Mike.

But it is an amazing thing. If I were Joe, I also wouldn't give it to him. There's a weird thing where Joe has that look at Mike McDee as he's walking away and she's behind the window pane. And she's like, did I screw up? Yeah, exactly. They can go around again. Yeah.

But I don't know. We don't know for sure if Joe did that. What year would have been the perfect year for rounders to be really? last unanswerable question. I mean, we talked about this a little bit up top. I think it was right on time. Give me an actual year. Oh, if it came out like,

if it came out like, it's not, it can't be after Moneymaker. It has to be right before Moneymaker. It has to be almost like two weeks before that happened. So the movie is still in theaters and then there's an insane rush of interest in this sport.

And then people start going. And then it becomes a huge thing. The problem is, and Norton are too old at that point. I actually think for just the legacy of the movie, it came out at the perfect time. The optimal time for the movie, maybe a year later,

maybe after Fight Club, Damon's got even more of a foothold, Damon's done Talton Mist Ripley. They're just bigger stars. They've been around a little longer, and then this happens, maybe, but I like how it played out. Yeah, me too.

I think it worked out perfectly. I don't know, if it had come out any later, I don't know if we'd be doing this podcast. I wrote about what I thought Rounders, too, should be. This was in 06. I'm just going to read it because I actually thought it was pretty funny that I wrote it during a time when Damon

was just an incredible A-plus list success and Affleck was really in a swoon. Okay. So here's what I said. Rounders 2. This is the plot I pitched Kauffman and Levine. Mike McDee, two-time runner up at the World Series of poker in 99 and 03, living at the Palms

Casino in Vegas, making a living playing in televised tournaments, running his own online website, ripping off celebrities and athletes, whenever, they come to town. A multi-millionaire, success by any measure. He even hangs out with the mloofs and run our test. He owns a 5% stake in the Kings and dates a former actress played by Heather Graham who gets naked with him in a torrid sexy in the first 10 minutes.

I threw in more sex in rounders. I see that. Just when he's preparing for the 07 World Series of Poker, Worm shows up in his life again, along with Worm's brother, Gerbil, played by Ben Affleck. They're in deep trouble. The Russian mob is after them. Being the loyal friend that he is,

Mike McDee gets dragged into the situation and ends up having sex with Famkei Jansen and her sister, Anna Kornikova, in a torrid three-way to convince Famke to call off the Russian mob. But Famke slips him a drug. And before Mike McDee wakes up, she's transferred three million of his money

from his computer to Teddy KGB. You're in this movie. You're in so far. Okay. It seems very convoluted. Heather Graham walked in during the three-way, unbeknownst to Mike McDee and decided to move out. What? Now he's broken single.

When he wakes up, KGB tells him, I have to play me for it. I want revenge for the last time we played. Mike McDee, he thinks about it. He goes to Cheater for the next 20 hours, spends his last five grand on a lap dance, followed by the shocking revelation. Gretchen Mal is working there after getting fired by her law firm for the Petrovsky thing. gets her number, but not before she gives in the abugatory, you're wasting your life speech. So she's actually serving some good in Rounders, too.

Mike McDee goes right to the World Series of poker with his last 10,000 that he borrows from Petrovsky again. Another 10K. Ends up at the final table with Teddy KGB, Gerbil, and a bunch of other celebs, gradually knocks everyone out until it's just him in gerbil, setting up the Damon Affleck. Head-to-head scenario. everyone's been waiting for. And even though the script, this is what I wrote in 06,

even though the script calls for Mike McDee to win, Damon ends up ad-libbing from the script and letting Affleck win because he feels bad about everything that's happened to Affleck since Armageddon. He makes enough second place money, $3 million to replace what he's lost, so he's happy.

And the movie ends with a torrid sex scene with Mike McDee and Gretchen Mall, followed by him breaking up with her and telling her that he never liked her in the first place, the end. Rounders two. Thank you. I'm going to applaud myself.

Your commitment to insane, impossible, imaginary movies is incredible. Thank you. I think that's my best one. That's a lot of work. That's my best one. I put in four sex scenes. There's a world series of poker. There's a climactic showdown with Damon and Affleck.

Let me just understand this. Is this the Rounders 2 you want to happen? That's what I wanted in 06. Okay. Rounders 2 now, I think, is I think Rounders 2 is just billions. Should we do what hasn't aged well about Rounders 2? A lot of it. I think Rounders 2 is Billion's Season 7 or maybe season 8.

It's after those guys cash in, what do you get like four or five years? And then they have to, year by year, you just get, you're on the Michael Jordan mid-90s Bulls contract. Yes. And they get to the FU point like season 8. And that's when they convinced Damon to come back as Mike McDee. he's in 03 started his own poker website he was the first one there he became a billionaire and now wants to get into the hedge fund thing plays bobby axe in a high-stake poker game and there's some bitterness back and forth and mike mcd decides i'm starting my own hedge fund i'm

gonna fucking take this guy's lunch money oh wow and then we go that's season eight you want the expanded compliment levin universe i want to bring in the characters i don't want I want Rounders 2. I want him in Billy in season 8. Oh, I'm into it. I will say, I feel like there was, there definitely was a Rounders 2 kind of missed opportunity around 2006, 2007 when poker was pretty big on TV. And you could have just had that character. Damon was too popular. He was too big. There were probably a million reasons that could happen. And Ed Gordon, I think is quirky about it. The really, really, like, the realistic version of that movie about Mike McDee being like the older guy and these like 19 year olds coming in and busting up the games and

figuring out new ways to play and spending all day playing online and changing some of the conventions of the game. Like I was a reporter at a magazine in 05 and I went on a poker cruise to do a story about the poker boom. And so I was on this cruise for like eight days and I spent time with pros and I talked to a lot. Sounds like when you pitched. I didn't honestly. It was pitched to me. It's funny. But it got me even more obsessed with the game when I did it. And it was so interesting because I would play at night and I would sit down with these 19 year old kids. And I was only 23, 24. Right. But I would sit down with these 19-year-old kids and they would annihilate me.

And they would play in ways that I had never seen before in home games. They were so aggressive. And they were like all the stuff that Mike McDee is talking about in this movie did not apply to them. And I always thought it would have been cool to see his character who was young but old school. Yeah. Get kind of challenged by a new generation. I always thought that would have been a fun movie. So he basically, if you assume he goes, I mean, the last what if of that movie is what happens when he goes to Vegas?

Does he do well? you assume like he actually becomes a really good poker player and he's in this Phil Ivy, Daniel Neganu, he's in that whole class of guys that kind of rise up and become the new establishment. Yep. And now he has to deal with all these whippersnappers. Yeah, I thought that would have been so interesting.

And there were some, those guys kind of became famous in a way and there would have been a lot more cameo opportunities. It could have been a great Vegas movie. They talk about Vegas. You know, I think that I can't remember what casino they say, but the best place to play in the world is X, but they can only. play at the Taj in AC, and you want to see Mike Muti in Vegas.

I can't believe Rounders 2 can't happen. Why did we create Ringer films for no other reason that make Rounders 2 happen? So we're announcing it today. It's a go. It's announced it. I'm just talking those guys and do it. They have a lot of juice right now. They could talk Damon into it.

Rounders 2, it's 20 plus years later, and you would think he's just like super wealthy and living in Vegas, right? I think if you, definitely, I think that would be a great entry point. And now Damon is like, you know, pushing a 50. You have family and kids. He's become Kanish. Yes. But as like a multi-whatever and he's tied to poker websites, gambling's becoming legal.

Yes. I think it would be great. That would be one way to go. The other way is I've always been dying my whole life for the crossover between movies and a TV show or two TV shows where taking a character from one universe, I talked about this on the Rwachable's a couple weeks ago when salami from the white shadow showed up on St. Elsewhere. That's right.

Coolidge was the janitor. And they had to pretend. and one guy thought he knew. But I always thought that could have worked. Yes. Take the character and put him in. They basically did this with Teddy KGB in Billions last year. They, they, it's essentially the same character.

He's just a hedge fund guy. I'm saying take Mike McDee and you're moving him in. What if it was Worm who infiltrated billions next season? Worm's not alive. Oh, man. RIMs not alive. That's sad. Worm's not around.

All right. Last question. Who won the movie? I think it's Malkovich. Wow. I wasn't expecting that. Because Malcovic's character is the most memorable. He is the most quoted.

He is the person who I think people still are using as like the phrasing in at tables to this day. Now, it's not Damon's biggest movie. It's not Norton's biggest movie. In many ways, it was not a financial hit. It's not necessarily what John Dahl is best remembered for. Copplin and Levine, obviously, they go on to a lot. Fomka Jansen was about to be an X-Men. You know, John Tituro has been in bigger movies.

But for Malcovich, for, I think especially for men of a certain couple of generations, this is the one where we were just like, Malcovich is fucking crazy, man. He's awesome. Like he doesn't give a shit. He's just going go for it. So I'm going Malcovich. Strong case. I'm going Damon because I think this is like an old school Tom Cruise role.

Where it's just like you just need a star. There's not really a lot going on with the part. other than the dialogue's really good. But if you're like, all right, describe Mike McDy to me. He's in law school, but he's not a very good law student. And he's friends with somebody should be friends with. Then he likes poker. That's really it.

Yep. Somehow makes me really care about the guy. I don't know how many guys pull it off. If we just go through and you just put all the guys from 90s in that role, it's like, is this movie as good with Ben Affleck? No. Is this movie as good with Leo? No.

Brad Pitt, no. Like, just go through everybody. George Clooney, no, too old. Like, however you want to play it, he's the only guy who pulls that, that character off. I think Ed Norton could have done it. Is it ironically the only other choice? I buy that. I buy that.

I guess I just think that Damon was going to be fine no matter what. Yeah. And because it's a movie star part, there's something inherently like blank about his character. Even if he feel like he's real, he's never going to go too far, too crazy or be too good. You know, he always has to be somewhere in the middle. So, but I think that's a really. really good case. And obviously he goes on to be like one of the five biggest movie stars. I mean, you could argue Coppulman and Levine win the movie because how many like TV slash movie writers do

even know? It's true. I mean, and they basically got knock around guys off of this, right? Yeah, but then it led to a whole bunch of stuff. They've been in a profile. They've had, they've done 30 for 30s. But like in that world, how many do we know? We know Steve Zalian. Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of people who do that stuff. Well, you know them. I'm saying like how many normal people know who wrote a movie? or who wrote a TV show or who runs it. Like, even like a succession, a show that we like. Yeah. I can't remember the guy's name who does that.

It's Jesse something. Jesse Armstrong. Jesse Armstrong. I don't know what he is. I don't know anything about him. He's a brilliant British TV writer. But yeah, you're right. I mean, he doesn't have the public profile.

I mean, you know, some of that stuff is self-created. Some of that stuff is like... Who's the guy who does Veep? It used to be Armando Ionucci. And now it's who Jesse Armstrong worked for. And now it's David Mandel who worked on Seinfeld and Curb and a bunch of other shows. I know all these people because I'm obsessed with this stuff, but most people don't. You're right.

And compliment and Levine did a nice job of positioning themselves in this whole guy's pop culture world that had really started in the late 90s. And there was this whole run of guys being guys and people who idolized double down trend. You know, you're probably right. I wrote about my column. It's probably compliment and Levine. Because they have like thriving careers and this is a thing. It's so hard to make something that people actually love. And people like me and you actually love this movie.

Yeah. The only thing, Damon loses it initially. But then I think retroactively, you look at those three in a row that he had, and it's like all-timer. It was really like Goodwell Hunting, Ripley Rounders. It just fucking looks great out of an IMDB. I think the best rewatchables are the movies when most of the major players are in their sweet spot. Yeah. And Damon and Norton, no doubt, are in their sweet spot during this time.

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