The Rewatchables - ‘Se7en’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: September 22, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan talk about what’s in the box after rewatching 'Se7en,' starring Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, and Kevin Spacey. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up. What's in the box? What's in the box? It's seven. Do you like what you do for a living? These things you see. You have to wear blinders sometimes. Most eyes.

Somerset is looking for a way out. You're retiring. Six more days and you're all the way gone. So how long have you lived here? Too long. Detective David Mills is looking for a way in. We'll be spending every waking hour together from now until the time I leave. I'll show you who your friends and enemies are.

Look. I'm going to homicide five years. Not here. Now, it is in general. We have ourselves at homicide. They're caught in a game. No pain of prints and no witnesses of any kind. Nope. About the only thing we know about that guy right now is he's totally insane.

Where the price of sin is death. There are seven deadless answers. Glutney? You're going to come take a look at this? Greed. No one touches anything. Sloth, wrath, pride, lust, and envy. Seven. You can expect five more of these.

The body was found on Tuesday morning. I hate the city. We're going to get who did this. This will be the very definition of swift justice There are two more bodies, two more victims This guy's methodical, sacting, worst of all, patient He's laughing at us He had a gun

He's two murders away from completing his masterpiece Let's finish it Brad Pitt Morgan Freeman Gwyneth Peltrow Do you ever seen any? Seven Sean Fennessey's here Chris Ryan

is here. It is the 150th episode of the rewatchables. I cannot think of a better, weirder movie to do than 7th, which came out in 1995, 25 years ago. It's an anniversary. It launches the Fincher era, which we are celebrating all week on the ringer.com, right, Sean Fennessee? That's correct. All kinds of great stuff to look at, read, listen to. He is climbing up the ladder of directors who have appeared on the most rewatchables. I'm glad we got all this up. Zodiac, Gone Girl, Social Network, 7, and then we're doing the game next week, so that's five. Did we do another one, or that's it, right?

No, that's it, but just, I want you guys to know that I am putting Michael Mann on notice, that if we can turn this into a Fincher pot, I feel great about it. Listen. When are you doing button, Sean? Solo button pod? In reverse? Yeah, button goes backwards. It starts with who wants the movie.

Yeah. It just goes backwards in the category. Listen, I'll tell you this much, and Sierra back me up. Michael Mann will always have the lead for director of the most rewatchables. If we have to do an emergency black hat just to juice the numbers. You guys got to do the keep. What are you doing the keep? It's just like every time fantasy turns away for a second, he turns back on us for a second,

it's just like, look, look, public enemies is sitting right there. Well, in all seriousness, Manhunter is sitting right there. Let's talk about seven, though. So I'm going to start here. You know, we've been doing a lot of 1995 movies this year. couple more coming up. And I think it's fascinating. The four most influential movies from this year are usual suspects, which we recently did, Heat, Casino, and Seven. And yet three of those four movies got completely shut out at the Oscars. Usual suspects had Spacey get nominated for Best

Supporting Actor and it got nominated for Best Original Screenplay. It is unbelievable to think that seven didn't get nominated for Best Original Screenplay. It's one of the most. most clever, creepiest, craziest screenplay as anyone's done. And that Fincher didn't get nominated either. Sean, we talk about this theme sometimes with the rewatchables, how some movies just age differently, other movies age poorly. What happened? Because I went to these movies in 1995, and these four movies were the most important movies to me along with before sunrise, kicking and screaming. There's some great comedies that year. Dumb and Dumber, Ace Ventura, Tommy Boy, Billy Madison.

Toy Story Jumanji came out that year. Great popcorn movies like Crimson Tide, Apollo 13, Bad Boys. Mall Rats Brothers, McMahon, it was a good indie scene. But I thought at the end of the year, these were the four movies. What happened? Why didn't that get recognized correctly? Well, Seven did get recognized for Best Film Editing, which is not completely shut out.

But there are a couple of shocking non-nominations for this one in particular. I think the reason for it is kind of, obvious, which is that this is just about the darkest mainstream American movie ever made. It is... The lowest opinion of humanity of any blockbuster I've ever seen. Yes. And that, as we know, is just not really the coin of the realm when it comes to the Academy Awards. They're looking for something a little bit more uplifting, a little bit more lighthearted, a little bit more, maybe a little bit more white savior. You know, this is like,

this is a really, really dark and difficult film. But you could very easily make the case, Morgan Freeman Best Actor, you could very easily make the case for best director, for best screenplay, and Darius Conjee for Best Cinematography. I mean, there are some things in this movie that are singular to this day. And, you know, but the Oscars are going to Oscar. Chris? It just felt like there were so many movies back then so that there was basically a whole breed of Oscar movie. I mean, Dead Man Walking feels like an Oscar movie. I'll Postino, I know it was probably a lot of it was the marketing, but like it feels like an Oscar movie. These movies that you're talking about, usual suspects, casino,

they're bare-knuckle genre movies that are done by artists, and those weren't really getting recognized as much back then, I don't think. It's interesting to me that Spacey got nominated for Usual Suspects when, after watching Seven again for, I don't know how many times,

he's the guy that leaps out where you're just like, holy shit, this half hour he puts together in this movie is so far up there, and it's such like, there's just nothing like it. The car scene,

which I know we'll talk to when they're driving to the site, that whole five minutes is one of the best scenes of the entire 1990s, in my opinion. I wonder if the biggest reason for that was because he's not billed on the movie. They didn't use him to promote the movie.

You had to see the movie to find out that he was John Doe. And so there may not have been as big a marketing campaign. Plus, the usual suspects was released first, and there was, already so much momentum behind it because of that and because of his performance and because of the big Kaiser-Sose reveal. I wonder if two super-duper, incredibly memorable twists a quarter of a

century later was too many for the Academy to handle. They couldn't nominate him twice for pulling kind of the same act both times. And it was a great move by Spacey not to be credited. Absolutely. During an era when you could pull stuff off like that. And, you know, one of the things that's crazy about this movie when you do the research is it had this slow build that just would never happen anymore where the box office stays steady and even gains a little bit as it goes long. It ends up making over $300 million worldwide. And one of the reasons was people knew there was a twist that something happened, but this is still pre-internet. You could keep these things secret. And if Spacey's in the credits, especially this came out after usual suspects. So if it's Brad Pitt,

Morgan Freeman, and then Kevin Spacey, and we don't see him for 90 minutes. I'm going to know that he's the killer. Chris, could you get away with that in 2020? I'm going to say, no. No. I don't even know if you could get away with the way that this movie is constructed, like in a narrative structure-wise, where the most important character, arguably shows up, what, 40 minutes to the end of the movie?

I mean, and they've talked about it. Fincher, I think, spoke about, like, reading the script. And when John Doe shows up, he noticed how much left of the script there was and he was like, holy shit. Like, this is, this is all about to happen in these last couple dozen pages. So I don't even know if you could really get away with it. I mean, you think about how we watch trailers now. When you watch a trailer on YouTube or whatever, there's usually like a five or six

second trailer for the trailer before the trailer starts. And then trailers today, even for really great films, are giving away three quarters of the movie. And I, you know, I love trailers. We've had this argument on the site before. But that kind of secrecy is just. been pretty much abandoned for the sake of marketing and making sure as many people know about as many

things about the movie that might entice them to come. I'm trying to remember how I felt when this movie was coming out. And I don't really fully remember it other than I knew enough about Fincher just from being somebody that read all the movie stuff where, you know, this incredibly successful commercial

and video director. And then he has Aliens 3 and is battling the studio in a way that is actually being covered and reported on. And Sigourney Weaver stuck up for him. And then it seemed like he was never going to do another movie. It was like he was like too much of a visionary for movies. But then to give him this movie and it's like, this is, all I knew was serial killer movie, Morgan Freeman coming off Shawshank, Brad Pitt, two years off a true romance,

five years off of Thelma Louise, a year after interview with The Vampire, when Hollywood really tried to make him a star, put a, with Cruz. Movie didn't totally work, but a lot of people had Brad Pitt stock. And it felt like a thing. It was like, oh, great trailer,

seem creepy. But I don't think anybody could have predicted what would happen with Fincher, right, Sean? Well, I think there's a couple of things that go into that, too, a serial killer movie.

I think this was a moment when interest in serial killers was at a high in the culture. And also, you know, Brad Pitt, I think the most recent thing he had done was Legends of the Fall. And so there was a kind a curiosity because he, this is really when his pretty boy, you know, reputation was cemented.

And this is such a hard turn away from the pretty boy reputation, despite the fact that he looks so handsome. But Fincher, you know, he claims, I don't know how true this is, but he claims after Alien 3 that he did not plan to make another movie ever again, that he, that that was such a terrible experience and that he felt so manipulated by the financiers of the movie throughout the process. And he just didn't get to make the movie he wanted to make, that he said that he would just go back to music videos and commercials and figure out what else he wanted to do with his career. And it was only because he loved the script so much, the seven script, that he ultimately decided to do this movie. And frankly, it's a turning point in recent American movie history because I think

he's one of the five most important guys who's been making movies in that time. And if he hadn't picked up that script and fallen in love with it, and what Andrew Kevin Walker wrote. He becomes like the American History X guy. You know, like he becomes one of these people who just can't get their head around how to do it. This is a huge. This movie is such a getting away with it movie. There are other movies like Seven from around this time. I mean, like, you can find them like these serial killer thrillers that are just kind of like too predictable, too safe.

They're checking boxes. And there was something about the way that they went about making this movie, whether Fincher learned just like a ton of lessons from Alien 3. You know, he insisted on the ending that was in the original script, but in a revised version of the script that had been circulating around Hollywood, they had changed the ending. There's a couple of different versions of it. But you can just tell that between Pitt and Freeman and what Fincher wanted to do, they were able to pull it off.

And you just think about like, I mean, people still say the lines from this movie, and especially the end of the movie. It's just become a cultural reference point. That was like, we might not have gotten this. I also feel like this is a movie that could come out right now. And I don't know, we've talked about this in some past pods, but like somewhere from 93 to 95 movies became. modern in a way that has now translated. Like to think of anything being 25 years old, that's a long time. But you think like even the credits, the way this film's constructed, the acting, all of it

feels really, really modern. And I think like even if this movie had come out in 1992, it's probably different. And I don't know what the tricks are in there that, you know, that make it for. feel quote unquote modern, but this feels like a modern movie to me. And I think heat's the same way, you know, where it's like, yeah, this movie could come out right now. What was it about the mid-90s? What shifted do you think, Sean? Well, that's a really interesting point. And on the one hand, I think you're totally right where if you just, if you showed someone this movie today and said it was made last year, they, they, you could believe that. You know, it's, it's credible. But also,

I think movies where men wear suits and walk around cities never get old. They never live. They never look old, they never age. You know, they're kind of, they're, they're, you know, an unexpiring currency of culture. And, you know, I think as much as this seems like a modern movie, it's also just completely a Hitchcock movie in so

many ways. And Fincher, that's by far Fincher's biggest influence and the whole, you know, kind of pulling your chain and pulling your chain until we get to the big reveal and the mystery and the death and the anxiety and the frustration and the evil in the story is so Hitchcock that

I don't know. I think part of it is just that Fincher has a kind of control over the format, over the form that something like that doesn't ever seem, I don't know, antiquated. It doesn't ever seem like, we're never going to look at any of his movies and be like, oh, man, remember, this feels like 300 years ago. He just has a kind of edge to his creativity into the way that he sees the world. I just wonder whether or not this is a seven episode limited series in, you know, in this day and age. I mean, you can see the influence of of seven on things like, Detective from the title sequence to the characters. I mean, funnily enough, I think True Detective actually sells out at the very end of the first season from having the truly dark ending that Seven does have. And maybe that is the difference between the two, you know, in a lot of ways. But yeah, I think that this is a truly influential film. And Sean's right. It's partially because, you know, he's drawn from like Friedkin, but he's also, he's referenced like how he wanted it to feel like an episode of cops. You know, it's, there's all this stuff at play. there, but the score feels very Hitchcock.

I don't know. It's just one of those movies that works. If you turn it on, I watched it last night. I watched it probably 50 times that's come out, and it just never seems to get old, no matter how well you know it. How high is this one for you guys in terms of like how many times you've seen it? Because this has got to be, I would say pretty high on my list of most rewatched movies

of my life. It's a huge suck you in movie because you always just kind of look and see how much time is left in it. And you're like, well, I got to see the last sequence. Exactly. See, I think this is a unique rewatchable where I want to come in about halfway through. As all due respect to the first hour, it's really good. But it's really all set up in foreplay.

And the movie doesn't really take off until... You check in right when Leland Orser shows up. Well, no, it's actually a little earlier when Spacey's the photographer, but we don't realize he's the photographer in that little scene when he's... From that point on, the movie's just banging. I mean, the chase scene's great. it just gets weirder and weirder, it gets grizzlier and grizzlier,

and you kind of know what's going to happen to Gwyneth. So the last time this show is like, oh, man, this is tough. And she's so beautiful in this movie, you know. Yeah, man, her head's going to end up in the box. But I think the last hour, and that's one of the reasons why I think that car ride and then the actual ending has endured in such like a dramatic way. It's same thing with Shawshank.

I think with Shawshank when it was on the AMC showtime, TNT that rotation where you just kind of got sucked in after the guy with the sideburns dies and that whole stretch where it's like, that was the longest day of my life, not knowing if Andy killed himself or not, but that last 40 minutes is just banging. And I think with seven, it's weird. You wouldn't think a movie that is this disturbing would be rewatchable, but I would say it's super rewatchable. I'm with you guys. It's weird though too, because it's, it's a very meticulous movie and it's very patient, but it's not slow. And that's really unusual. You know, it's a movie about detectives and detective work is boring. It's really, really kind of quiet, research-driven,

observational. And he does capture a lot of that. And the Somerset character is kind of one of the great movie detectives of all time, I think, in terms of how he explains his process, how you see how he goes about discovering more and more about the killer. And you'd think that that would make for a boring movie. But as much as I agree with what you're saying, Bill, and the final 40 minutes is just so incredible. I love the first half of the movie. I find a really immersive and interesting, and I kind of pick up

new little things here and there every time, because he's so specific about every shot choice, about every little detail of the story that he wants to show you, that it kind of replenishes every time for me. Well, isn't that why we all like Zodiac? Same thing. A lot of that first hour is the same thing

where it's all four play, but you're just picking up shit. time and hey Chris when did you get fincher season tickets because for me it wasn't until after the game after which we're going to do next week when after I walked out of the game I'm like I'm in you tell you tell me what's next fincher so me and my boys got 700 level tickets when Janie's got a gun music video came out there you go no I think I fully became I was aware of who he was for Ily in three. And then with this, I was just like, whatever, just take

my money, you know? Yeah. It was hard, even though it was so well done, the movie was so incredibly cast, it was hard to separate all the different things going on, right? You had, like, one of the best scripts, I think, of the last 25 years, and you have

the perfect actors. Like, we're going to do casting couch later. I wouldn't change the top four. You're catching all four of those people at the perfect points of their career. This could have been a lot different. Oh, yeah, and we'll get into that. You need luck with this stuff. You also need luck with Chris mentioned the, you know,

the decision to really fight for the ending that happened, which we may as well talk about now. There's a couple things going on here. One is they had a whole argument about the head in the box. And Fincher had read the script that has her head in the box and Mills shooting Spacey at the end. He wants to make that movie. The new line, this is their first big movie they've ever made.

nuance, I say, no, no, that's because we, people are going to like that. We've got to figure out some sort of thing. Fincher's like, no, no, no. I'm making it with the head in the box. That's it. So they have that whole thing. They do that whole fight. He wins. But then his original plan was to cut to black right after Mills shoots John Doe the six times. The movie ends. And he's going to do the Sopranos anywhere. It just goes black. And you sit in the dark theater and you're like, oh, my God. And you're just in the darkest place possible. So they tried it. They did in the test screenings.

They kind of fucked it up because the house lights came up immediately after the fate to black. Can you imagine? Yeah. It's like, what just happened? So, New Line freaked out, and they ended up doing that little coda at the end, which had Somerset, the world is a fine place and worth fighting for.

I agree with the second part. And Freeman and Pitt and Fincher to this day are mad about it. And they think it should end with the fade to black. As they should be. So I learned something last night that I had never heard before. I watched, I watched the director's commentary and the director's commentary for this movie

is a bit unusual because there's a track that is Fincher and Pitt talking and then there's a track that's Morgan Freeman and they were recorded separately but if you watch them they blend them together so there'll be segments where you hear Fincher and Pitt talking together and those two guys are hilarious together because they're old friends and they get

each other and they're pretty mischievous on the thing but Freeman is by himself and talking about his experience and you get to the end of the movie in this scene and he says that originally the plan was for Morgan Freeman's character to shoot John Doe

to sacrifice Mills basically to protect Mills and for Somerset to take the bullet or to give the bullet literally to John Doe and I had never heard that before I hadn't read that or understood that and that obviously completely changes the movie too and I think it sounds like because there were so many permutations of the script

like Chris was saying earlier that the ending could have gone in a lot of different directions here this is probably the best version I do love the fade to black I think that would have been the most jarring but I think I would have eventually felt the same way I do about the Sopranos ending where I actually like the Sopranos ending

now I hated it for seven years but now I'm kind of like yeah good ending would you guys have been more into it if the ending was just John C. McGinley like coming onto the scene just being what the fuck happened what the fuck

Dix! A couple other things So the Oscars that year. Braveheart wins. Apollo 13, Babe, Il Pasino, and Sensit Sensibility are the four of their nominees. It's an all-time train work. It's really like,

it's one of the worst things ever inflicted on people who actually like movies. I just can't believe it, looking at it. Best director was Gibson won for Braveheart, Chris Noon and Babe, Tim Robbins, dead Milwaukee, Mike Figgis for leaving Las Vegas, and then Michael Radford for El Pasino.

Again, a complete affront. So just wanted to mention that. There's some okay movies there, but they obviously overlooked some more mainstream stuff that people loved, and you kind of could tell we're going to love forever. Like the first time you saw usual suspects, I'm sure you guys just talked about it.

Like, you were like, okay, this is just in my Hall of Fame instantaneously. This movie is a huge thing to me right now, and this movie was the same way for me. I actually felt that way about Casino too, and Casino had this weird thing where it wasn't quite as good as good fellas, so people are disappointed. And I'm like, why am I disappointed?

my life sucks. I'm so glad this movie came out. I'm going to see it again in two days. I was so happy. Casino was good. Yeah. It's like a 98 out of 100 compared to Goodfellas 100 out of 100, you know? It's pretty close.

Yeah, it's like we're debating like Pedro in 99. And it's like, yeah, you had that game where he gave up the two runs against the world. I was like, yeah, but he had 17 days. What are we arguing about? A couple other things. So we mentioned Pitt. Pitt's 93 to 95.

He's just not a major star yet. California, indie movie, true romance, iconic performances, Floyd. We covered that on previously rewatchable. He's in the movie The Favor, which is terrible. I've never seen that. Supporting, oh, it's really bad. He's interview of the vampires, his big shot. And people are disappointed in that movie.

Like, I don't know what the legacy of it now, but I think it was weird. Cruz had blonde hair. It was super homerotic. People were freaked out by that at the time. And it was just kind of a weird movie. I don't think it was a success. Legends of the Fall, which some people like, but they changed the ending. And that was a major thing for him.

He was like, I'm not going to do that again. And then he bangs out seven and 12 monkeys in 95. And then it takes off. And it's still a little bit of a slow burn. It was never like he never had the great run. He never had like the great Tom Hanks run, the great Damon run, anything like that. But just managed to remain relevant for a long time. We might as well do this now.

I think it's in my top three favorite Brad Pitt performances. I actually think he gets better over the second hour of the movie. And I don't know if it's intentional or not. But I just really like the character. I think there's nuances to it that other people would unlike. You guys don't agree? No, this is a Sherlock Holmes movie in which Watson is a fucking idiot. And there is nothing better than watching Brad Pitt playing a character who's hitting his head on the ceiling of his own intelligence.

Right. Being like, I fucking hate. reading, are you telling me I got to read the Marquis de Sade? You know, like, you know, he is, he plays that kind of, um, that frustration with understanding the world around him so well. And it's, it's, it's, it is actually one of my favorite pit performances because of that. It's actually not really one of my favorites. Um, make the case. I think it's, it's definitely not bad and he's incredibly charismatic. He's, Brad Pitt, you never walk out of a Brad Pitt movie and thinking like, oh, he's sucked in that movie. He does not capable of that. But you can feel him trying

in this movie. He's really twitchy. He's always moving. He's trying to draw attention to himself all the time. And Freeman, who, you know, is significantly older than him, is so, just holds the screen without doing much at all. And they're in scenes together all the time. And the thing that I've taken away from it the last few times I've seen the movie is, to me, this is Morgan Freeman's movie. You know, Spacey kind of steals it at the end, but this is, I didn't realize when I was a kid and I was all interested in Brad Pitt and thought he was really cool. I thought that this was a Brad Pitt movie. And it's not to me. It's a Morgan Freeman movie. And I think later on, when Pitt starts working with writers who are a little bit funnier, he does better work in some ways.

Like his Tarantino performances, I think, are better because they're playing into some of that twitchiness that he likes to do. Same reason we like to mention in true romance, you know? In this movie, he's kind of trying to be funny. Yeah. His character is an idiot. So that occurred to me last night is watching him and I think his character is an idiot and I think in the mid-90s maybe they were like some of these jokes are actually funny or some maybe there's

some like, you know, when he's just like reading Dante and freaking out and he's just like poetry, god damn it. But I think it's good that Mills is not like also a Tarantino character. You know and and that wouldn't make any, I think that

that doesn't make any sense if he's also rattling off cool dialogue. Like he is a dude who is now a little fish in a big pond and that's really freaking him out and it's freaking his wife out and they don't understand this city and he's trying to throw tough guy vibes.

So I agree with you, Sean, that there is probably like way better roles in the future for Pitt at this point but I do like what he does with what he has here. I'm gonna make this case in defense of Pitt. Does he ever play this character again, the specific character?

Does he ever show this specific pitch for us? Because I don't think he does. I think that's a good point. When this character clicks for me is when they have the, they bring Freeman home to his house. Yeah. He has dinner and he comes home and he sees that great dog. And he like gets on the floors.

He's just like, then you're like, oh, this guy's an idiot. Like you don't really fully realize it until that scene. And once you realize like he's kind of an idiot, it makes a lot more sense. He's an idiot. He's a good guy. He really wants to be great, but is not that smart. Thinks he knows more than he does. And I actually think it's more nuanced.

But I was with you for a while, but I actually, I think there was real intention with this. I don't, I don't dislike it at all. I mean, it's one of my, this is one of my favorite movies ever.

I don't want to be overly critical of Pitt. It's just not in that kind of like top tier for me because he wanted to make so many great movies. What's your like top three? probably Inglorious Bastards is up there. Jesse James is up there. Obviously, once upon a time in Hollywood. But even to the point that we're making about what he's doing,

you know, like if you watch him in Burn After Reading or Killing Them Softly, like those are similar kinds of things. Those characters are just supposed to be kind of funny. Like, the Killing Them Softly character is a little similar. Yeah. To the character in this movie in Seven. It's just he's much more mature.

You know, and you can see he's like a guy who's growing up and Mills is supposed to be kind of an immature, you know, he's not a rookie cop, but he's playing that like Mel Gibson and lethal weapon energy, you know, or he's like, I'm reckless and I'm going for it. I'm going to kick the door down. But I think you're right, Bill. He didn't repeat this, which is impressive. It's not in my top three the more I'm thinking about it.

Moneyball one. Moneyball, of course. True romance, too, once upon a time in Hollywood three. Where do you guys? And then probably in glorious bastards, four. You guys have the Mexican top five, top four? The Torres 27. Chris, you're a big Troy guy, right?

I'm a big, you know what I am, though. Don't defend Troy. I'm a big spy game guy. Oh. When was the last time you watched the movie where he has to have the Irish accent with Harrison Ford? The devil's own. Yeah.

That's rough. It's been a minute. He never really kind of solved that accent. Like, if you want to talk about Bad Brad Pitt, that's one of them. Hey, do you guys know about Marvel's Avengers? It's an action-adventure game or young Camel O'Con must reassemble the Avengers to stop AIM, AIM, AIM, aim, in a future where superheroes are outlawed,

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Shawshank Seven It's a pretty strong quartet It's the way outbreak is obviously the weak The weak link but the other three are Hall of Famers and we I can't believe we haven't done Unforgiven yet I'm honestly ashamed I'd like to apologize to the audience 150 movies in that unfavorable.

forgiven has to happen, but those are, uh, those are all timers. And what's weird is the slow burn his career has had, which we talked about a little on the shushing pod, but it's so late in life when he becomes an A-list star, but by the time seven comes out, he's an A-list star, right? Yeah, it's so funny though, because he, that isn't, I don't want to, I don't want to get too far ahead on the categories, but it's got nothing on 1989. I mean, 1989 is glory driving Miss Daisy and lean on me. And before that, he had been, you know, nominated for StreetSmart, but he's still pretty mostly unknown. And then in that year, those three movies were huge, huge movies. And then this is kind of like phase three of his fame. And he still has like phase four to come. He plays the president

at some point. And, you know, he's got them. He's got the 2000s. Like he has an amazing career. Coming out of this, he, this is when he's just can make any movie and get a giant check. And it's also, these are Morgan Freeman movies, rather than. later on where he's like the president or a guy who's like in five scenes in the in the situation room or or the you know the guy in batman who's like here's a cool new car it's it's much more like he is driving the story here he's in the first shot of this movie and the last shot of this movie that's how you know it's his movie i was watching eyewitness on hbo max a couple weeks ago yeah you were sigourney weaver william it's really good movie hboh max they have they have some good

Freeman's in it. He's like the seventh guy in it. It's like a classic, like kind of crappy police officer part. And that was basically his career until StreetSmart. Like he never got the break. And you could, you know, pull in a whole not a lot of great parts for black actors into this, especially in the 80s. But it's kind of unbelievable to look back and think that it took this long for this guy who is such a one of one actor who had this specific lane. And then in any movie where he has to narrate anything, it's just going to get better. But anyway, so that happened for him. A couple other weird wrinkles, the writer, Andrew Kevin Walker, who wrote this movie over

a two-year period while working at Tower Records. Classic 90s. I feel that. This is the decade when shit like this happened. Deeply feel that. So he was doing this in New York City. Was that like near Astor Place? Is that that tower?

I wonder which one. I don't know. It was one of the branches. No Oscar nomination. for him. He does have a cameo at the beginning. He's the first dead guy wearing a bunch of prosthetics. The fat guy.

And this was the best movie he did that we would know. But I do want to mention he wrote a movie, a little movie called 8mm. Yeah, he did. Explains a lot, doesn't it? When you see that that's from the mind of one man, those two films. So he wrote 7.

He's like, yeah, that wasn't weird enough. I'm going to dive into the world of snuff porn. I feel like 8mm is Andrew Kevin Walker's casino. You know, it says, it's his 98 out of 100 of snuff movies. All Chris has to do is text me one night and be like, hey, man, can we do 8 millimeter this week? And it's done.

It's a done deal. I just need somebody else to even want to do it 20% as much as I want to do. Anyway, so yeah, so he had that no Oscar nomination. And then this was the first big, they call it the A production for New Line Cinema. where they got real stars, real director, real cash, and made a shitload of money, and New Line became a real power player in the second half of the 90s.

And they did it, I mean, they did it betting on Fincher. My favorite quote is basically, Fincher, I think, told Playboy this story where he went up to Mike DeLuca and he was just like,

dude, the audience wants a revelation, I'm going deep. It's $34 million and fuck it. Hmm. Yeah, this was, this was the home of Freddie Kruger. You know, I mean, that's really the kinds of movies that they were making.

And then they eventually become the home of the Lord of the Rings and Austin Powers and Rush Hour and some huge movies over the next 25 years. And this is a, this is the entry point. 33 million dollar budget made 327 million worldwide. I actually did not know that it was that successful. Our guy, Raj, Roger Ebert, four stars. So there's a caveat here The original review

Is three and a half Did he did the fucking redo? God, why did Raj do that? So I will say that The two reviews are very similar But the four-star review that he republished I think it was in like 2010 I think it's one of his better pieces

In the later stages of his life It's a really really good review of this film And really smart about why it works so well I would recommend people check it out Can you imagine I imagine if in sports, we were just allowed to be like, hey, remember when I thought the, I don't know, the Celtics were going to beat the Lakers in 2010? I've revised that prediction. I now think the Lakers are going to win.

Everybody knows that I've always been a huge David Kahn fan. There's no evidence to the contrary. All right. Lots of to the discuss here. Let's get to the category. Most re-watchable scene. I mean, there's really like three or four that stand out. I'm going to give you seven.

I like the Tuesday scene with the opera music when Somerset is researched in the case in the library and he puts in the envelope and gives the research to Mills. Just like classic well-crafted Fincher. Just kind of a nothing scene for a normal director and he turns it into this incredible two minutes. That's amazing. I love when Somerset goes to the Mills's apartment for dinner.

I think the movie falls into place with that scene because it's like, Yeah. All right, we get it. It's the old cop who doesn't want to deal with the young guy. Like, we get it. We get the dynamic hair. And then it actually goes to another level.

There's a couple of times in that scene where Pitt looks at Paltrow and you're like, these two clearly have a ton of affection for one another. And it actually makes the end like that much more powerful. Well, and then they start dating in real life. So I think that affection was a real thing. They got engaged. She went from him to, I think, Affleck. for a little bit.

That's correct. And then somebody else after that or Chris Martin? Are we litigating, Gwynn's? No, I don't remember. She had some high-profile celebrity relationships. Brad Pitt initially. Brad Pitt went from her, Aniston,

Angelina. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. That's coming up later in one of the next categories. I like that dinner thing. The SWAT team, rating the starving guys' house.

McGinley. Dix! One of my favorite line readings in the whole movie. That's just a really creepy. When he does the cough, so apparently they didn't tell the actors playing the SWAT team

that that guy was going to cough. He was supposed to stay silent. So when he did that, they all kind of jumped. Oh, wow. It's an authentic reaction. Get up, your second shit. Oh, fuck me.

Dix! You want to come take a look at this? Dix! The apartment outdoor chase scene, when Spacey's shooting at them and they go and Pitt, and then Pitt actually gets hurt in real life, puts his arm through the windshield, sever some tendons at his arm, and he's in a cast for the rest of the movie in for real, which they decided it was like, cool, let's use the injury there. But that scene's really great, and it seems like Spacey's going to shoot him and the whole thing.

And then the last two scenes, which it's one of these two for me, the car ride with Spacey, You're no Messiah. You're a movie the week. You're a fucking T-shirt at best. You're only. Okay, sit back. I spared you. Sit back.

Remember that, detective. Every time you look in the mirror at that face of yours for the rest of your life. Or should I say, for the rest of what life I've allowed you to have? Sit back. You're fucking freak. Shut your fucking mouth. You're no, Messiah. You're a movie of the week.

You're a fucking t-shirt at best. It could just get so good And then the ending What do you guys have for Most rewatchable scene? Hmm I don't Chris loves the car ride

I can tell No it's the ending It's like everything CR wants in a scene It's John Doe has the upper hand There's just like Let's not get too cute about this here Okay

From the from that whole Just like The way that they physically constructed So that you can see above The scene from the helicopter And Morgan Freeman Has to do that run back and forth and the way in which he reacts after he gets to the box.

It's just like, it's like a singular moment in movies. Put the gun down. I saw you with a box. Who's in the box? Because I envy your normal life. Put the gun down, David. It seems that envy is my sin. Oh, what's in the box?

What's in the fucking box? Give me the gun. He just told you. You lie. You're a fucking liar. Shut up. That's what he wants. He wants you to shoot him.

No. I, this is really one of those movies where, there are three or four obviously iconic scenes that people talk about all the time that I love just as much as anybody. But there are also a lot of really small moments and scenes that I think are just as effective, like, you know, them falling asleep together on the couch as they wait for the fingerprint return. And then Arlie Ermi comes out and he's like, wake up, Glimmer Twins. Let's go. You know, like just all those little moments like that I really love. But when I was a kid, when I first saw the movie,

um, the car ride, I, like took my breath away. Like, Spacey as he starts modulating his voice when he starts running through all of the people when he, when Freeman,

when Pitt says innocent and he says, innocent, you know, and the way, the, that whole speech, um, all,

all Kevin Spacey awful stuff aside, I was completely blown away by that. I, I don't know if I had seen really like a performance specifically that good. And even when you hear Fincher and Pitt talk about him, um, Fincher calls him an instrument. He thinks of him like a weapon in the movie.

And that scene works so well and it gets you so much more invested. And so even though we found out who the killer is, we're still kind of obsessed with where the movie's going. And that's such an incredible trick. Yeah. And he might have one of my most memorable character introduction shots. Like the real one,

not the when he's in the stairwell with taking their picture, but the hands, the bloody hands and detectives. You're looking for me You're looking for me You're looking for me What you're fucking move On the fucking floor Get away from him

On the fucking floor I know you Now get out Get down On your stomach You piece of shit Now All the way

All the way Fucker Now Faster Faster Faster Now Those on the ground

What fuck is this I'd like to speak to my lawyer God damn it I also don't know who else could have played John Doe who else would have been like you put Pacino

in the John Doe part and it just goes sideways How does it go for you want to do any Pacino in the backseat? Pacino was supposed to be Somerset wasn't he? Yeah we're going to get to that later but what about Pacino as John Doe?

I mean that is it? Detectives! You're looking for me. For me, it's the car ride. Yeah. Only because I've been, I've seen the ending so many times.

It's almost lost the shock value to me as much as I love it. And it's one of the great scenes of the 90s. But the car ride, I pick up something new every time. There's a lot of really good, like, buddy cop back and forth stuff going on throughout the movie.

The scene when they find the fingerprints behind the painting is one of my favorites. Good one. Waiting in the pizza parlor for the guy to come in and get the list so that you can give them the library book, games. Yeah, there's just a bunch of scenes like that where you're just like, oh, this is,

this is just like really good repartee. I love when the guys, I'm peeling off the name on Somerset's office. He's like, can you not do that? You know, the conversation between Erme and there's like literally a dozen of those scenes that I love. We are not done talking about what's in the box yet. I have some stuff coming for later. But we're going to take a quick break and then get to the rest of the categories. Let's take a break to talk about Heineken. You know, I was thinking when I was a kid, I don't really remember how many beers were around back then.

I can only remember a couple of them. And I remember, you know, being with my dad and his brothers and they would have beer and stuff. And if the Heineken ever came out, you always kind of like, oh, man, this feels kind of substantial. This isn't, you guys are taking this seriously tonight. You went out, you got a premium beer. And it's really been that way my whole life.

Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. If you thought a cold, crisp, summer Heineken was something. Just you wait until you taste the Heineken fall lineup, or autumn, depending on your zip code. Is it a new product? No. Heineken's been rocking it forever. Just the same great tasting lager that's perfect for any season.

Could be perfect watching this movie, actually. Because, you know, not a bad idea to have a beer when you're diving into the world of seven. Or you could, you know, pop one or two when you're watching. in football this weekend, whatever you want. Heineken original lager is made with pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken an all-season all-the-time kind of beer.

So pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style, and drink responsibly. All right, what's age the best? You mentioned Spacey. Chris and I litigated the whole Kevin Spacey thing in our usual suspects podcast. I don't think we need to do that again. I just think he's amazing in this movie.

And if you're just talking about the performance in the movie itself, I don't really know who else could have done it. I think De Niro ate some version of 80s De Niro before, by the mid-90s, I don't think he could have done it the same way. But I think there's some kind of time frame from the 80s where De Niro could have been this guy and been super fucking creepy. And maybe even by the time, early 90s. But he could have tapped into that little bit of Cape Fear.

A little bit of taxi driver. There's a world he could have gone that I think would have been really interesting, but I think Space is perfect. You know, popped into my head on a much smaller scale in terms of fame, but who I think could have been good at this is Will Patton. I feel like somebody who in movies, he's either incredibly warm or really devious, you know, and he does have a kind of darkness in him. So, like, you probably could have seen a couple of different kinds of character actors,

like Tim Blake Nelson or somebody like that. Like, there are some guys. but Spacey was, you know, so famous, frankly, at that time that it made it that much more shocking when you saw him, where you were like, holy shit, I had no idea. Kevin Spacey was in this movie, and it makes it that much more effective. Yeah, the name I was going to throw out there, like what Sean's saying, is Billy Bob Thornton. Mm-hmm.

That would have been good, too. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. Another one's age the best. What do you got? Dead Dog. And Spacey goes, I didn't do that. It's just the way he deadpins that is unbelievable.

That's, like, the only movie moment in this movie. That's the only like, if they had done a trailer with Spacey in it, you would have had that as like a one-liner. The credits of age the best. Fincher wanted to make them look like a serial killer was doing the credits, basically. And they're really cool. And it's another thing that makes this movie feel really modern. And it's something that in Fincher movies, he's been awesome at.

No surprise. The guy's like the ultimate technician. But his movies always start in this really, really specific, cool way that draws you into some world. And look, the movies I grew up in the 80s, a lot of times the credits were just three minutes of droning, you know, some terrible theme song

and just like bad graphics being thrown at you. You're just kind of waiting for the movie to start. And he figured out a way to improve that. These are fucking incredible credit sequence. And it also just like, you're immediately like, what a grotesque dirt under fingernails world we're about to live in for the next two hours or so. And same thing for those,

weird books that they made too. Another would stage the best. The concept of a serial killer ripping off the seven deadly sins as his serial killer strategy. I don't know how you think of that. Andrew Kevin Walker behind the counter at Tower Records

selling the Michael Jackson bad DVD to somebody or CD to somebody probably thinking about murdering them and then deciding which of the seven sins he'd want to murder them with. And then it's like, hey, that movie, I don't know where that revelation comes from,

but it's just brilliant. And it's brilliant in two ways. One is Freeman figures it out after like two, and he only gets to five and saves the two for last. But when you're watching this for the first time, you're not being like, oh, I bet he's saving the last two to blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just all of it is just an amazing voila.

You know, you think like the great voila moments. And usual suspects was another one we just had. But the voila moment of saving those last two and having them intersect, man. You get the impression that he was like really reading a lot of the books that Somerset goes to. You know, you get the impression he's reading Dante.

He's reading Chaucer. He's getting interested in those stories and that's driving a lot of this. And he's basically trying to find a way to modernize the story. Because, you know, really like, we haven't talked about the setting. I don't know if that's going to be on your list, Bill.

But, you know, just the unnamed city that is always covered. in rain and is full of crime. And it's like, he basically just wrote hell. You know, like he didn't name the city for a reason. And he's trying to place these guys in hell.

And, you know, like this is the, you know, John Doe is the ferryman to hell, really in a lot of ways. There's also that vibe of a lot of, some other thrillers from this time period,

silence of the lambs to some extent, where, uh, you always like find the killer by, by like cracking a word code or like, solving like some weird clue where it was just like, I remember when, when the first time my Freeman figures out

that the shavings in the guy's stomach are actually from the floor where the fridge would slide back and forth and it's like, that's pretty slim, you know, like what happens if he doesn't figure that out? Right, right, right. But that was like what thrillers were like back then.

So Sean mentioned the setting. I add that as an age of best for two reasons. One is that it's kind of could be, it's some cross between Seattle and New York City, but it's never really established, which I kind of like. But downtown L.A., yeah. And some L.A. too. And it's just like, I don't know where we are.

Fincher said he wanted to show a city that was, quote, dirty, violent, polluted, often depressing, visually and stylistically. That's how we want to portray this world. Everything needed to be as authentic as raw as possible. There's a feeling because of where they shot it. And I know that he said that there was some rain in L.A. when they were shooting. but like I'm sure that they had to give it, given the downpour there,

it's never reigned like that. That it's raining specifically on them. Because like any of the wide shots, you can kind of feel the sun sort of somewhere there behind the clouds or right out of the camera's frame, but it's just fucking dumping on them. And you're like, these guys are in the shit. These guys are getting pissed on by God in this pursuit of this guy.

And it is absolutely like, it completely sets the tone. another what's age the best for me. Haircut one, little love plus one at the pizza place. Just kind of sneak that in, one of the great underrated 80s songs. He stinks in some nine-inch nails later, too. Not showing Gwyneth's head in the box

is what's age the best for me, that decision. So smart. So smart. It's worse to not know what it was like and to think about what it looked like versus like the quick flash. I think a lot of directors would have fucked that up. and then Brad Pitt's

wait was my wife in the box face when he just kind of makes that crazy Brad Pitt this is I start going Oh no Any other what stage the best for you guys How much Brad Pitt's character hates fucking reading Like I just love that he has to get like the clips notes And the misproniation of those things

I also really love in the beginning hour or so of the movie, how much venture dials up how scary a city can sound sometimes. Just like the subway rattling their apartment, the noises outside of Somerset's apartment, just like barking and yelling and crashing all the time. And it's, it's very effective. I think there's just, here's the thing. I'm the son of a detective. And detectives are very cynical. And this is a very cynical movie. And when you are exposed to this much pain and violence over the course of your career, the Somerset character is just incredibly realized. You know, this guy who lives alone, has no family, does not seem to have friends, is only happy when he's doing research for

his job on his off hours at night in a library. And he needs a metronome to go to sleep. He's like God's loneliest man. And it's like an amazing idea for a character. And we take it for granted because Morgan Freeman is such a great actor. And whenever Morgan Freeman is in a movie, you're like, all I can see is Morgan Freeman. But the concept of Somerset, that that idea for a figure, I think is so, so smart. And it's something that like sticks with me in the movie. The other thing, too, is just, I think all the music is really good and really representative of that time.

You know, like, yeah, I forget who sings guilty, but that song and nine inch nails and that, like, like very specific period and rock where everything was kind of like industrial and kind of S&M and a little bit dark and leather. Yeah. And, you know, that was a moment. That was a moment in popular music. And it's kind of, it's kind of amazing to think back that Nine Inch Nails was like a diamond selling band because of how depraved their music and their music videos were.

But it just, this movie hit right at the same time. And then, of course, you know, Fincher and Resner go on to make this incredible partnership. and do all these scores together in the future. So that's aged really well, too. Chris, Yeah. Somerset, great hang or tough hang? I bet, like, 10 years earlier,

he's probably, like, a little bit more of a better drinker, drinking partner, but now it's just a little billiards. Real buzzkill, real buzzkill. Maybe, like, two hours at the pool hall, shoot some stick with Somerset. What do you think Somerset's, like, sports takes are like, you know? I don't have time to care about football.

He's got to be a Jets fan. I was going to say huge, huge early San Antonio Spurs fan and all other basketball is just like pointless showboating. You know, it's just like, if he were a Spurs fan, he would have experienced joy, you know? Somerset has no joy. Yeah, he's definitely a Jets, Knicks, Rangers fan, but this movie was filmed before the Rangers won the Stanley Cup.

And he's still mad about the Charles Smith game. What's age the worst? So I didn't have a lot for this category. What's age the worst is the impact of seeing this movie for the first time. We've only done a couple rewatchables where it's like, you're just never going to beat the first time you see this movie when you're like, oh my God. This was a stumble out of the theater movie.

It really was. It was like, wow. People were like hyperventilating. Yeah. I don't even know if I saw this in the theater. But yeah, like I remember like the first time I saw this with anybody else and I was just like, the night's over. You're not hanging out after that.

Yeah, pretty cool date night movie. Yeah. Well, another one stage the worst for me is that this is considered a quote-unquote horror movie in the same way of like Halloween and movies like that. And we talked about this before, but I do think there should be a different category for specific movies like the Shining and Silence of Lambs and Seven that they aren't horror movies. But you can't really call them a thriller either. They're kind of this other category. name would be like they're like a thrower movie. I don't think that's going to catch on. Yeah, it's probably not going to catch on.

I'll keep working on it. If anybody has any ideas, put it on our rewatchables account. It's a Hiller. Hiller, that doesn't sound scary enough either. There's something dreary. It doesn't necessarily need to have like a quote unquote murder to be scary. Like we don't see John Doe murder Gwyneth Paltrow. They could have thrown that scene in where he knocks on the door and in it. They don't need it. Yeah.

It's a lot of the scariest things are just in your head. What you think things were, what you think things happen, or the aftermath of a murder. And I don't really know what category that is. It's a good point. And it's in keeping with a lot of those other movies you're describing where we don't, it's not really actually that violent a movie. It obviously ends in a shooting and then and Mills gets his ass kicked at one point by John Doe. But, you know, the murders are happening off screen.

You know, that's not what we're seeing. It's very similar to Zodiac in that way, too. He's not showing a lot of the murders. That's not really what the movie is about. It's not about exploiting the violence. It's about showing how we get to these decisions and how people get stuck in these situations in their life, which is pretty compelling.

And Silence of the Lames is pretty similar. You know, we never see Hannibal Lecter taking anybody's life. That's not what the movie is about. Well, we do. We see him take the... That's true. That's true. That one, sergeant.

That's true. He orders the second veal chop. They don't figure that one out. I think there's hungry today. It's also just all the victims or the bodies in this movie are almost like abstract art pieces at a certain point. You know, I mean, like you can get a lot of shock value out of showing a dead body, but this is different. It feels more like you're looking at some fucked up piece of art. Yeah, Zodiac, The Shining, Seven, Silence of Lambs.

Those are like a different breed. It's almost like Oscar horror, I guess, would be the category. casting what ifs unless you have any other what's age the worst this movie's pretty much perfect I don't have a lot of nitpicks for it it's a weird document

of Brad and Gwyneth's love you know well it's just like their love didn't work out and the movie ends with her head in a box so it's not that's not what you want when you're looking back on past romance

right yeah it kind of would have been a better aniston part for how that relationship ended I would also say what's age of the worst is composition books. Oh, yeah. John Doe, definitely just a blogger,

but, you know, without an account. So he's just filling up these books. But, like, imagine that guy with a live journal, you know? Do you think he would have not turned to killing if he had read it in his life? 100%. I think a lot of lives are saved. He could have found community.

Seven lives are saved. That's another what's age of the worst when he's making the angry case, why each victim deserve to die, and you're kind of like, eh, some solid points here. He's going for his purpose. Yeah, I see it. Okay.

All right, Jando. A drug dealing pederast. Casting what ifs, Denzel turned the part that went down to Brad Pitt, or went to Brad Pitt, told Entertainment Weekly the film was, quote, too dark and evil. Later regretted the decision.

Slice Stallone also turned down the roll of Mills. That was when Sly was in that I need my, it turned out to be Copeland. I need my dramatic movie. Sly and this movie derails it. It would not have worked. I don't believe that. I feel that falls on the other side of half-assed.

I just don't see a world in which he was off. I think Sly Sleone has been going into Wikipedia pages and adding his name in like associating himself with all these movies where it's like, dude, you were in like, this was post-Tango and cash. I don't know if they were like, let's get him in seven. Yeah, he was not up for like reversal of fortune, you know? He was not up for these prestige dramas. Sylvester Stallone passed on I'll postino.

You think Fincher was like, man, and over the top, he hit a couple places that I really feel like I could tap it. You guys do fucking cobra guy. Yeah, big cobra guy. Duval and Gene Hackman both turned down the part of Somerset, apparently, allegedly. And then Chris mentioned Pacino in pre-production seemed like he could have had it if he wanted it. and he decided to do City Hall instead. If John Doe's head splits open

and a UFO should fly out! I want you to have expected it. Someone turned out in the role of John Doe that we love. His name is Val Kilmer. It would have been fucking awesome. He could have done it. Yeah.

He could have done it. It would have been really good. Spacey's the best. Valcomer's version of John Doe, sign me up. It's almost like I wish they had just filmed that car ride in one other scene just so we had that on YouTube or something. Because that was when Valcomer was in the, I'm just getting weird stage. He's making Dr. Allen Moreau and Island and Dr. Moreau and Ghost in the Darkness. Like he's kind of losing a little bit.

Imagine him doing it as Doc Hollywood, though. Imagine John Doe as Doc Hollywood. They're incredible. And then Jeremiah Chechick. attached to direct at one point? What did he do? National Impluence Christmas vacation, right? Yeah, I don't get that one.

And then, uh, Guillermo del Toro allegedly turned down the chance to direct. He thought the movie was too dark. I don't know if I believe that one. That feels kind of half-ass to me. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award, Leland Orser. Yeah.

I know he's Leland Orser, but I still don't know his name every time he shows up in a movie. And I can't name any other movie he's been in, but I know he's been in 20- This is also, it took me a solid 18 years before I stopped thinking of him as this guy. So it's a tough beef for Leland Orser. Yeah. Do you have any Leland Orser in your arsenal, Chris?

Can you do any of that? I think if we're talking about what's age is the worst, it's breaking out Leland Orser impersonation. Yeah, I want to hear it. No. And I did. Well, I have him coming up in my throat. Well, he's here again for our next category of the Bitson Hanna. Give me All You Got Award for overacting.

It's him on McGinley. McGinley's just being McGinley though I don't know can you win an award for being yourself you're the same he's always Defcon won and everything is in it I think he brings great energy I'm just saying it's like you you guys got to watch the director's commentary just to hear Fincher and Pitt respond

when McGinley first shows up on the screen they're just like hell yeah this guy rules they love McGinley the other thing is when they when they raid that guy's apartment the pedophile guy I think that wakes up.

McGinley's dudes, like you can tell they did like six weeks of SWAT training. Like they seem so primed to take a door. It's so wild. Yeah, he definitely got some medication from Albert Bell, some cream to rub on him.

Leland Orser taught himself, he needed to breathe in and out rapidly, so it sounded like he was hyperventilating. So he decided, to saturate his body with oxygen. And well before they filmed the scene, we'd breathe in and out rapidly so that he would have less oxygen

and also didn't sleep for a few days. So his character would seem disoriented. Really committed that Leon Lernercer. Who's the guy who plays the strip club porn hut guy in the glass booth who's like crazy, like, do you like what you do for a living?

He's like, no. Oh, that guy. He is one of those guys. Yeah, that's a good, that guy. Yeah. That guy shows up in later movies. in later Fincher movies. What is that guy's name?

He's one of those guys. The Brandy Booth Award for Best Performance by a Pet. I just love the cameo from Pitt's dog. It's great. Great-looking dog, too. I have six out of ten shooies. The Dion Waiters Award. Is Kevin Spacey eligible?

I say he is. I think, yeah, yes. Might be the dictionary definition of the Dion. He's in four scenes. There's a few. There are contenders. Let's just, can we put Spacey aside for a second? Yeah.

Incredible Richard Schiff. one scene as the asshole lawyer. He's great. Perfect line of readings from him. You're gonna go Roundtree here? I'm going Roundtree next. Roundtree's press conference

after Eli Gould's murder. Amazing stuff. Reggie Kathy. You know, Corns from Oz. Doing the corner report, yeah. Doing the corner report. Who else is on the list?

Ermi. And Ermi, of course. Yeah. This is not my desk. Well, you know who else is eligible, Gwyneth? I was going to ask if Gwyneth... The meeting at the diner with Somerset, I think, is some of the best Gwyneth ever. I agree. I agree.

So this was her first, like, major movie. She'd been bouncing around a little bit, and Finchner saw her in Flesh and Bone, but this was the movie that kind of made her a star. Her career took off even as her head was in the box. I vote for Spacey for Dan Waders. recasting couch the top four is perfect I wouldn't touch it

anybody you'd recast somebody else in Pittspart Sean go ahead let's play it out Jason Patrick oh what about that I would first later in there

hmm I'm trying to think of this movie with Duval because you said Duval was in was up for Somerset was offered Somerset I love Duval. It's kind of the right time for him.

One guy I thought of was River Phoenix for the Brad Pitt part if he was alive because he dies before this movie, obviously. But you think like, what year did he die? He died in like 92, 93. During interview with a vampire, right? Or right before it? Yeah, 93 range.

And he's, so he would have been like mid-20s, early mid-20s at this point. And it's just kind of had the kind of dark element that would have worked for this. So half-fast internet research mentioned that Brad Pitt really did get hurt in real life. All of John Doe's books were real books written for the film. They took two months to complete and cost $15,000.

Those poor people that did that. The diner where Somerset and Tracy meet was set in another movie. Bill, you love a fucking diner fact. That we've done on the rewatchables. It is the quality coffee shop in downtown LA. Can you name the movie? It was a rewatchable. It's not heat.

Denzel Washington was in it. Training day? Training day. That's where him and Ethan Hawk, me, same diner. This is a newspaper. It's full of bullshit. They show Gwyneth's face right before Brad fires the gun, only like a frame and a half, something like that.

Not intentionally subliminal. And just the, it's cool because in Fight Club, he does the whole thing about the cigarette burns, like the little shot, like the blips in the film, I always think of Gwyneth as like a cigarette burn a little bit. The guy, the super skinny guy who was chained down, the actor, they actually looked for a super skinny, slight actor. His name is Michael Reed McKay.

He weighed 98 pounds. And that's who they used for that. So I don't know if he lost a couple extra, but that's what happened. We did all the other internet research. Apex Mountain. We could do that in one second. Take one more break. Taking a quick break to talk about TikTok.

Each time you open the app, you learn something new, whether it's a viral duet, new recipes, or even words of encouragement. You're bound to find useful and interesting content everywhere you look. The short viral videos on TikTok cover a variety of topics and creative and educational ways from household hacks to finance tips and lots in between TikTok, a learning resource and cultural hub that brings helpful

and inspiring videos directly to you. Also, a great place to find sports content. If you like sports, movies as well. You'll discover new ideas and find unexpected skills, trends, and information. All in one place. Discover more on TikTok. Apex Mountain. I'm going to make the case for Freeman. He's coming off Shawshank and then he does this movie and both of them are smashed successes and that paves the way for him to be able to take shitty parts and deep impact and stuff like that and just get giant paychecks.

I think he has the most juice after this movie, not Shawshank. So I vote yes for him. I'm dubious Don't say 1989 That was not his Apex Mountain I nominated

for best actor Doesn't matter He didn't have The juice that he had From Shawshank and 7 Would you Would you guys argue That the moment

Before Robin Hood Comes out Is his Apex Mountain Oh man Chris Where are you out On Azeem From Prince of Thieves

Honestly In the If you go back Now and see How many mistakes We have made With Robin Hood That movie's not

that bad it's pretty bad. POT is not that bad. I would watch it again just because my recollection is thinking it was one of the biggest train wrecks of the 90s.

Like to me it was worse than Waterworld. Costner accent is a struggle. Costner accent's an assault. It's a struggle. Yeah, it's bad. He gives up. Halfway through,

he's just not English anymore. Yeah. He's just because he's basically the bull der herb guy. Brad Pitt, no. Fincher, no. early Gwyneth. Not Gwyneth, but early, early Gwyneth.

So like hard eight, moonlight and Valentino. But that doesn't really work for Apex Mountain. You can't really say, like, this is his early Apex Mountain. I'll tell you who word for it was me because I was like, the guy who created the white shadow, he's got a hot daughter who's in seven. Can I meet her? Never worked out for us. Bill, what does Apex Mountain mean?

Apex Mountain does not qualify for Gwyneth. It means the height of your powers. Spacey, usual suspects than this. I still feel like, no, I think it's American Beauty. Decapitations? Whoa. I would say the French Revolution, probably Apex Mountain for decapitations. Fair.

The deadly sins. I feel like Dante's got some ownership on that one. Okay. Not a lot of Apex Mountains here. Picking Nits. I have some questions about. about Gwyneth Paltrow's character, aka Tracy. Yeah.

So she's living in a big city. She has no friends. Why is it so hard for her to make friends? She just got there. She's a hot, winsome blonde. They just got there. Couldn't have taken an exercise class? Maybe we met somebody in the class.

Hung out of a coffee shop? The city seems to be entirely comprised of cops, criminals, homeless, and serial killers. Is she like in the city of industry? Like, where is she? Are there other humans there? I don't think... I don't think... I do take your point in so much as, like,

it just seems like, in what way was this a cool decision for them to make, the Mills family? You know, like, I understand, like, in the fictional world of seven, and they're, like, living upstate in, like, a rural area. Like, maybe he thinks this is good for his career.

But it just seems to be, like, a series of Ls that they take as soon as they hit the Seven City. And I would just maybe be like, you know what, I'm just going to go, I'm going to go stay with my mom for a little bit. You know what I mean? Like, you just seem like you're really caught up with this whole gluttony case. So I'm just going to remove myself from the equation.

Then also with Tracy, so she finds out she's pregnant. She's worried about her husband's reaction for reasons that remain on query. He's not going to be able to handle it. Well, why are you married then? Your husband's not going to be able to handle it? What's he going to do? He's going to leave? She's like, I need to talk to somebody about this.

I'm going to pick that weird old guy who has no friends, no family. Wayne who's by himself all the time, who I bet once at dinner, and this is going to be the guy I can find him. It's actually a good scene. I just think it's weird. It's almost like they needed one more Gwynness scene, and they couldn't figure out how to, how to advance the part that she was pregnant, and they kind of just whipped this one together, hope we didn't notice. I think if you described it to an alien, the alien would say, that's fucking weird that she called Somerset, but in the movie, I never blinked. I was like, of course, Somerset. That's who she calls. That makes sense.

All right, let's get into it. How do you mail someone a severed head, Chris? Well, I mean, that guy, the delivery guy, he's got a wallet chain. So clearly, he's just pretty punk rock. He's looking for some alternative business teams. No, but let's start, I have the head.

Yeah. I think he got himself a box. You've been doing, but am I bringing, I'm bringing like a serene wrap thing, like I would keep like a rib eye in? So I'm bringing that with me for the murder. But you're not walking into a kinko's with the head. You, You've gotten the box already.

You've insulated it. You've wrapped it up. And then you're like, I'm going to go to a non-FedX, DHL kind of place and be like, I need you to take this to the middle of the desert at 701. But, and there's a big butt coming, he turns himself in. He's covered in blood. Uh-huh. Whose blood is it? The third unidentified person.

That's Tracy. Yeah, it's Gwen F. Okay. So he's covered in blood, but managed to mail this box. that had a human head in it and pay somebody off $500. Did he have the blood on him then? Is he wearing a jacket? How did he pull that part?

I don't think John Doe is doing a lot of face-to-face work. I think he's like, there's $500 in an envelope, pick this box up, take it to the desert. But you're saying, how did he get it into the box without getting blood all over the box? Is that what you're saying, Bill? I'm saying that. I'm saying, how did he deliver the box?

He just leaves this box outside of door. So I figured like he takes the head, he puts it in the thing you, like the saranwrappy type thing you'd put a rib eye in. So he's got to bring that for the murder. He's bringing that to Gwynness House. He's putting that in there.

You got to make sure you don't get blood fingerprints on the box. Well, no, he doesn't care about blood or fingerprints. He's done. Maybe some dry ice. Maybe some dry ice so the head doesn't get too warm, decompose, something like that. So you're bringing the dry ice as well. So maybe that's in his car.

Kills her. Does he kill the dog? Was my next question. You got to take out the dog, too. Dogs gonna fight him. That would add to the number of murders and that would fuck with his seven numbers. It's not called nine.

But is a dog murder or a murder? Well, this probably isn't the place to litigate that. Okay. So he's got in his car, he's got, maybe he drugs the dog, so he doesn't kill the dog. He gives the dog like a piece of beef with things in it.

You're crushing it right now, Bill. Goes back in the car, gets his box. How did he decide what the right size box was? If I was like, hey, you're going to put Chris's head in a box today. What are you going with? Like the 12 by 16? It's like the 10 by 14.

Size of a very large canelope. Okay. Yeah. Just say you go to Kinkgo's. You're like, I'm thinking of shipping some pretty big can'telopes to my to my band. Put in the head in the box. It's not going to start bleeding out. There's not going to, how much, how much blood is coming out of the head at that point?

It's already been decapitated. Is it stop bleeding at that point? Uh, because there's blood. I don't know. I want to answer that question. There's blood on the top of the box when Morgan Freeman opens it, right? He opens that one cover. He's like, hey, that's blood.

So how'd the blood get there? Listen, if you're saying that seven is a bad movie because this doesn't make sense. This category is called picking nits. I want to know how he prepared the box. Okay. Let me ask you this. Did you ever consider that John Doe has an accomplice? Oh.

Well, that would have been the sequel if they had done it, right? Is it possible that's someone a good sequel. What did he do if he brought the box but he miscalculated on the height and width?

It's like, oh, fuck! He's not bringing it into TSA. Now I got to go to Kinkos to get another box. Hold on. Oh, shit.

I got to slow my schedule back by an hour. You think he just travels around with boxes? You know, like how do, what kind of, how do you plan for this sort of thing?

He probably brought three different boxes. No, John Do. The whole thing is like, also. he gets to the police station by taking a cab. Can you imagine the interaction with that cab driver? He's bleeding everywhere.

So he probably had a jacket on covering the blood. But his fingers are covered in blood. It's kind of amazing that this guy hadn't been arrested previously because we learn he's this incredibly intelligent criminal. But on the other hand, that one passage we hear about in the marble notebook when he describes vomiting on someone and laughing at them, this guy seems like he's pretty unhinged.

You know, he's not in control. He's getting into cabs with bloody hands, bloody smock. I don't know. Yeah, there's probably some murders in the past and maybe he's slowed down for a few years. Then in the box, you're putting the head up, right? The head's looking up. You want the person to open the box and the head's staring at?

Or do you put it down like you'd like... I always thought that the face was looking up based on the way that... Because he just opens it and then recoils. Like, I think he knows. Okay. So that brings to my next nitpick. you're open this box, she thinks like a bomb is in it.

You think something horrible is in it. You're not expecting the human head of Tracy, the lady that you just read the diner with a week ago. Should his reaction have been even worse than it was? Like, I actually feel like he kind of shrugged it off a little bit. So my read on that is... I don't think he's that surprised. Is that when you rewatch this movie,

you can tell that Somerset knows throughout the car ride that something else is going to happen. Well, they say it when they're descending down the staircase and he's like, something not feel right to you here. He's still got two more. You know, they do indicate that something is all off and they're suspicious. But I mean,

maybe that's the case for Somerset just being so cynical too that he's like, well, now I've really seen it all. Now I've seen Tracy's head in a box. I will say I've never thought of her head facing straight up. You make a good point. I always, for whatever reason, just, I don't know, organically, I assume that he would just drop it down on its neck. But I guess maybe you're right.

So Brad Pitt kills Spacey. Does he want the box or does he stay away from the box? Does he ever see the box? Does he ever look in? This is pretty grim. I don't think so. I told you we're going to dive into the box. I think that Brad Pitt basically gets like, you know, arrested by McGinley, more or less.

You're not arrested, but like restrained. I don't think he ever sees the box. You don't think it's like a Wilson the volleyball situation where he's just like can I have that box guys? This is now officially entered Friday, late afternoon podcast vibes. I was just trying to figure out how weird I could make Sean. Don't come around here, California. Any other picking nits for you guys?

You stay back now. Any other picketts? That was some of the best picking nits I've ever heard. That was actually amazing. Appreciate it. Best quote, we've mentioned a bunch of them. I like, just because the fucker has a library card doesn't make him Yoda. Brad Pitt had some.

some really solid quotes of this. I liked the fingerprint guy going, maybe you guys want to cross your fingers somewhere else. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? Fuck yeah. Yeah. I'm glad they didn't. A seven episode one.

It's sitting right there. It's sitting right there. Which brings to my next question. Would you sign up if somebody brought back seven? Yeah. I watch some pretty bad TV. I would definitely. Who's making?

I mean, that's the thing. thing. Like, this is in different hands. This is kind of a mundane movie. There was a movie that came out one month after this movie called Copycat with Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter. It's fine. It's pretty good. It's not bad. It's not bad. The Simmons family enjoys it. Totally forgettable, though. You know, similar kind of like energy, you know, a thriller, it's not quite a horror movie, all the things you were describing, Bill. And the reason that this movie persists is because it is somewhere between 10 and 20 people who are among the absolute best at what they do.

And there are choices that are very specific. And if you're telling me that we're bringing seven back and Fincher's not a part of it and Pitt's not a part of it and Darius Conjee's not a part of it, is it good? I don't really... Would you watch a seven sequel directed by Fincher where Mills has to come back and solve a new crime? So I was going to make the case.

so it's Pitt it's Pitt now it's Bill's would it be called what it be called M-I-L-L-S fuck off it's Mills

how much time did he serve in jail for this do you think temporary insanity he gets off he's like in a home yeah does he have to leave the force

or does he take like a year-long break and then comes back I feel like this guy is not is not hanging out yeah okay how about this

Mills becomes a bounty hunter because they won't let him back on the force. But then 25 year anniversary of this case, somebody decides they're going to rip off the seven sins. And Mills is the only one still alive. Somerset's dead. They got to go to Mills. Mills becomes like the Somerset and we have some young new whippersnapper as the Mills. Timothy Salome.

Michael B. Jordan. Yeah. Yeah. Sir Sharon. I kind of like that one. Yeah. Sertr Ronan. Yeah, we go female for the most.

I like it. Yeah. Great job, Sean. Probably in answerable questions. What's your favorite deadly sin out of the seven? You have to pick one. What do you mean by favorite? Is like the one that we're most susceptible to or just the one that we think is like the

one? Just the one you see the seven. You're like, I kind of get that one. Envy. Yeah. Sloth. You're incredibly clean.

What are you talking about? Look at your, look at the back. you have. I vote for wrath. I vote for wrath. Yeah, you do. Of course you do. Can you really chew your own tongue off?

Yes. I thought there was things proven that you can't do this, that your body rejects it. This is like watching Jimmy Butler at the end of fourth quarters, man. Thanks, man. You're coming up with at the end of this podcast. It's a big podcast, 153 watchables. Yeah, you can. I thought when you started chewing it off, your body rejected it and you gag.

Sean, you want to field this one? I can't say this has really been in my field of study. That's why it's unanswerable. That's not something I've looked into. Did the dog die? You guys say no because it would have messed up his seven whatever's.

Yeah, he doesn't kill the dogs, I don't think. But the dogs are probably neglected at this point. What does Somersets next 24 hours look like after this? Just goes, cleans out the office? Get the fuck out of Dodge. Never seen again? watches the Jets. It's just like, what'll

what'll make this seem not so bad? They actually had that. Wow. No, they had an extra scene where Somerset, he leaves the force, he goes home, and he finds out the jet sign Neil O'Donnell. And that was the, the audience decided that that ending was too horrible

and too horrific. And they had to just go back to the severed head in the box. that's a... Oh my God. You guys suck. Him and Fireman Ed responding to Neil O'Donnell. Who won the movie?

This is really hard. I say Fincher. I'm going to agree with you. I think that's the right answer. You can make a case for a lot of people. I liked what Sean was saying about Freeman, though. I do think that... I think that he almost shares it with Fincher.

Because he's such like a good guide through this world. He's such like a calm. He delivers the exposition so well. He feels like a real person, and it's just like at the end he's so powerless. It's such a great performance. Fincher goes on to do the game and then Fight Club. A movie that I don't feel has aged with the kind of impact

that it had for the first few years after it came out as just a kick-ass incredible movie that was, even when you were mid-2000s, I would have been like, yeah, that's one of the OG movies of the last 15 years. And it seems like that's faded. There's a lot of reasons for that that I'm sure we'll cover when we do the Fight Club rewatchables at some point. I would disagree with you. But I think that the meaning it has taken on is different than the one that it had then.

There are multiple critiques of society in the movie. And the one that was happening then, I think is different than the one that it responds to now. But I just watched it last night, Fight Club. I think it's incredible. It's still astonishing and totally different from seven in terms of like watchability. It's very different. It also, it seems weird, but Fight Club feels more optimistic. I mean, seven is literally, I agree.

Seven is a message that says, do not care about anything because it will die. Yeah. Yeah. Fight Club is a love story. Yeah. Fight Club also had some pressure on it because the book was pretty impactful. Yeah. You know, and I think people didn't want to. want that book to get fucked up. But at that point, he had had this street cred. Whereas I got,

we're in good hands with this. Yeah. Fincher will figure this out. I mean, he's on, like, like I said at the beginning, like I think without this movie, he doesn't go on this run of, you know, I think there is a really strong case that he is the singular craftsman filmmaker of his, of his generation. I think he is that we barely, we didn't even talk about, you know, the 99 takes stuff and, you know, how specific he is and all the kind of legend around how we talked about that a little bit with social network and a couple of other movies. But this is really where because he has so much power, he gets to start to do the things he wants to do. It sounds like on Alien 3, he was controlled. And this is the one where he was like, I'm negotiating for what I want. And I'm going to get what I want

and do it the way I want to do it. And that's why he makes such great films because he's in control. Well, you can read about Fincher all week on the ringer.com and we will be doing the game. as our next one, which is available on a bunch of different streaming services. And I watched it recently. And I'm going to watch it again. It's a banger. There's going to be some nitpicks. I'm just warning you guys down.

Maybe not on the level of breaking down the head in the box. But I have some questions. Some small questions. Sean Fantasy, Chris Ryan, a pleasure. As always, keep your heads out of the box. And check out. the ringer.com for Fitcher Week and we'll see you next week.