The Rewatchables - ‘Sinners’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wesley Morris pop open a cold bottle of Irish beer as they revisit Ryan Coogler’s instant classic, ‘Sinners,’ starring Michael B. Jordan, Hailee Steinfeld, and Miles Caton. Producers: Craig Horlbeck, Ronak Nair, and Chris Wohlers Free eBooks library. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. The rewatchables brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find Van Lathen.

Yes. Higher learning. Absolutely. With our friend Rachel Lindsay. Midnight boys. Pee-Poo! Yep. Wesley Morris not on the Ringer podcast network.

Although he does have a podcast that he refuses to promote. I'm not refusing to promote it. Cannonball with Wesley Morris. I'm going to get better than you guys. I'm very proud of the show that we may call Cannonball. There you go. There we go. I'm Bill Simmons.

We're going to do a rare thing. Talk about a 2025 movie on the rewatching. Sinners is next. I've ever seen no demons. Till now. Admit to a word. Met to what? That you dead.

Sinners. Sunner. Saling in theater is coming soon. This episode of the rewatchables is presented by Prime. You listen to this podcast for the movie talk. So let's set the scene. Our lead, tall, dark, stranded at the airport. Hours of delays. He's scrolled, strolled, and loitered by every overpriced snack stand,

but just when all hope seems lost. Plot twist. He remembers he is prime. And without a whole library of free e-books ready to read right from his device, cue the triumph and score. Roll credits. Free e-books library.

It's on Prime. So we've only done this. We've had the rewatchable since 2017. I think we've only done this for three other movies. Get out. Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Top Gun Maverick, where a movie was so instantly rewashed.

that we said, fuck it. And we just decided to give it the rewatchable stream. There's some drawbacks to it. There's not enough information about the movie with some distance. We don't know how the movie's going to

play out for the next five, six years. The casting what ifs as the years passed, they start making up shit about who almost got what part. Like right now there's like nothing. But this movie, I saw it with Van,

the day it came out. Oh, really? What did I predict to you that it was good? I said it was going to make over $200 million. You did? I did.

Oh, he was all over it. I was like, that movie was going to be a monster. Like, when we left, I might as well just put a coofy on Bill's head. Like, Bill, Bill did that thing where Bill looked. It's tremendous. We're sitting outside the Groveills. I predict the movie makes over $250 million. And that was a big deal at that point because remember all of the talk was around the business of the movie.

I mean, all of the. what we can now call BS around the conversation around the movie. A weird conversation because everyone was fixated on this. Cougler Daily gets it back in 25 years. They spent so much money. This one title. And then the box office was good the first week. And then there was like four or five different news stories about,

well, they still have a lot to recoup. We don't know if they're going to recoup. It's like when did we ever talk about that with movies? It felt like people were lined up a little against this. What's interesting about it from where we watch, standpoint is it's completely rewatchable. And my son, my son and I watched it twice together since it's been a home video.

He saw it twice in the theaters and then twice here. Once they get to the bar, once we're starting the bar, like about 40 minutes in. An hour. Yeah, well, they have, you meet like, once the bar opens, yeah, once they open the bar, yes. It's about an hour and a half and it could really be its own movie. But I think as the years pass, that's going to be it. So I'll go to you second. because I already know how you feel about this movie.

You never wrote about this movie as its own piece, but you put it in a Beyonce, like bigger picture piece. But what's your relationship to this movie, Wesley? I find it fascinating. It is, it is, I love it when some work of culture or art that becomes then culture. It gives you a new way of seeing a thing that you have, always understood to be the case. You know, Get Out gave us the sunken place

in addition to other ways of looking at the relationship between black people and particular kinds of white people. And here we have not a necessarily new metaphor for what kind of lazily gets called appropriation, cultural appropriation. but you have it so that the metaphor isn't quite fixed to mean that it's that the white interest in the black music is inherently bad. It's that the vampires here, which who are also kind of zombies, we can talk about this. their interest is their own interest is confused right because anyway so i just we can talk more

about what i'm trying to say but i just love that people responded to this movie in the way that they did both with you know intellectually emotionally their sense of entertainment was satisfied And I enjoyed it. I feel like there's two things that I truly, that just truly do not work for me after three experiences with this film. Save that. Let's go positive first and we'll circle back. But I just, the first hour of this movie is,

I didn't even need the vampires. The vampires to me are like dessert. Because the first hour of the movie is just a meal. It is, it is something that you rarely. see in a movie about black life and black culture in the South in the past. Yeah, there was stuff I didn't catch

the first time we saw it. Like even like when they go to the stores and how they position the storefronts and the two sides and even how the stuff in one store is slightly different than the stuff in the other. There's all these nuances to it that you kind of pick up the more you watch this movie.

It's such a that first hour, you can tell that there was real sort of intellectual labor that went into recreating this town and the relationships in it. This is the Jim Crow South.

The Jim Crow Southness of it is atmospheric. It does not feel like it's dictating day-to-day life. Of course, but you know it's a psychological condition at this point. We're in the 30s. And I don't know.

It's just what would it look like for black people in the South to just be living a Tuesday? What would it be like for them to be living for Saturday, right? The one day of the week where time stops and you can just dance your ass off and gamble what little money you have and drink. And then you go to church on Sunday and say, I'm sorry, I did that. I'm going to sleep and wake up to work on Monday. Like Saturday night was the biggest night of the week for certain black people. And then you went to church on Sunday and some preacher made you feel bad about it. That's all in this movie in the first hour.

When you saw it twice in the theater? Yeah, three times. So did the first hour or the second hour, what did you respond to more? I think that I responded to different things and different viewings. When I saw it, when I rewatched it for the podcast, the first. hour by far just had me captivated. It just like to what you guys are talking about. I think for a couple of reasons. One is something that Wesley hit on when he was talking about the film, which is that

this movie does something that I think a lot of period pieces that have black people in them don't attempt to do, which is it treats the black people in the movie like people. And they have very different experiences. Like even smoke. and Stack, who are twins, they have two completely different experiences of even love. Smoke has this tragic, all-encompassing, consuming, identity reaffirming love. Stack has a love that is almost divorced of its identity. It's trying, it's searching for one. They have all the feeling, but everything else is kind of being dictated by the fact that

they're not safe to be together. For the audience, Stack becomes the vampire. Smoke is the hero, and Stack actually becomes, in my opinion, the movie's greatest victim. Because he turns into Radio Rahim. Oh, how? Careful. I mean, it's interesting to think about him that way. Keep going, though. Keep going.

And then the second part of the movie is this relationship to the American South. I am from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. They filmed in Louisiana. They filmed in Louisiana. They filmed in Louisiana. This movie is said in Clarkdale, Mississippi. There is something about the American South that is supernatural, and there are a lot of reasons for it.

Number one, a lot of this happens to be the fact that it's the blackest place in America. And there's something that comes along with that. One thing is that all the stories, all the spirituality, all the culture that had to be developed in response to the brutality of America, it exists there in a very distinct and very distinct. special way, right? So all the cultural invention, the music, the dance, the spirituality that had to be invented out of survival, it sits right there on top of the South. And when you see something that depicts the American South, it makes you think about the carnage and brutality that it took to create

the society that we live in. That's the economic driver, the engine. And the people inside of those movies are sort of, it's orphans. They're the orphans of, of, of, of, you. American exceptionalism. And stories about them always make you go, shit. Like, you always have to sit back and go, look at the cotton. You always have to

sit back. He's paying for something with the plantation. Look at the toll. Look at the cost. And the movie is able to depict those things without in any way, languishing on them. How do you make sharecropping not a big deal? How do you make living on a plantation not a big deal.

Well, when there are vampires attacking you, it seems like it's not as big of a deal, at least in that moment. And I'm I have been and remain transfixed by what the movie was able to do. And he's from Oakland.

I could get it. Look, man, the work, to your point, the work and the craft and the care that must have gone into Coogler's exploration of particular the Delta. I haven't had a chance to talk to him about it, but I don't know how he crafted that. I've been there. My daddy's from Marangling, Louisiana. I know these people. This is who they are.

For real. Like, and it's, it was really, really, really, really an achievement to me. You know, we did that video for Ringer movies when we talked about, basically the premise was why doesn't Ryan Cougar make more movies? And you could say that about some directors work a lot. some directors like take their time. And I, my, I was like, my only frustration with him is,

I just wish he did a, banged him out. Like once, yeah, just like, just do a buddy cop movie for six months. Like, just bang one out.

And what man just described is why he does, why, and especially like doing the real research for this, that's not in his process. Like, if he's going to do sinners, he's going to get every single piece of the movie, correct.

And that takes like real time. It's like a laborer love for him. I also think that I don't know. He got, it worked for him so fast, so early. You're doing great. You're doing great, Greg. I am partying a lot lately. I got to stop.

Look at this man. The picture of party. Yeah. You don't know. You don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's the whole point, right?

I just feel like. It all, he got very, he was touted very quickly. Like out of the gate, Fruitvale Station makes him a person of interest to lots of people in the industry. He's in his mid-20s. Which is not...

After Fruitvale. Yes. And the question is like, what does he do after that? Like, this is a guy who could be writing original screenplays and making really good dramas for the rest of his career. And Coogler, Ryan Coogler, is like, ah, I actually have a thing

that I've always been thinking about doing, and it involves the Rocky franchise. And I think he, I had always been curious about what it would look like for this person to write another original screenplay that is coming from something, some place in his imagination or his, or his soul, his interests

that isn't connected to, you know, some other, Entities intellectual property. This is his first movie with its own IP that came completely out of his head. Right. Because I always think Creed, but actually Creed is in the Rocky universe, right? Like he has a couple built-in characters. That's definitely true for sure.

I think that there is a common thread between Creed, Black Panther, and this. Oh, sure. 100,000 percent. I think this, what Cougler is really good at doing in my opinion. Is it right Michael B. Jordan? Well, yeah, Michael B. him and Michael B. Jordan. Like, that's, like, that's his muse.

But I think what he's really good at doing is, um, the lore development, like evolving lore. Like, Black Panther, in and of itself, the movie ends up being, uh,

an interrogation of black diasporic unity. And that's a hell of a swing for Disney, right? Like, that's a big. Yeah. That's a big idea. The movie starts off in,

with the history of the Wakanda civilization, and then we go right to Oakland. He takes the story, and then he evolves it. And this, in the same way, just like the bedrock of Creed is the Rocky franchise. The bedrock of Black Panther is obviously

the Marvel Cinematic Universe and decades upon decades of comic lore. This one is really all of the different aggressions and microaggressions and circumstances that exist in the American South in the Delta specifically. Forget about the Delta. It's the Delta.

It's the Delta because even those the Asian characters, the child family, they exist specifically in the Delta, in Louisiana and South Louisiana where I'm from. We didn't have the... I'm like, when I first looked at the movie, that was even unfamiliar to me. I'm like, what? I never seen... But he took that

and then he was able to build on that and put the vampires like on top of it. And so, He has his way of taking things that are so familiar to us and then making them original. Creed should have been stupid, bro. Creed should have been stupid. We talked about that when Creed came out. We were like, how did this worry?

The odds were like 20 to 1. Like Creed should have been stupid, but it just wasn't stupid. Yeah. Because. Well, because he understands, like, to your point, though, he kind of understands, like, this isn't a cynical investment, right? This is a heart investment. Yeah.

And clearly these worlds mean something to him. and the question is like these movies operate and I'm not saying they come from this place but they definitely correspond with this urge that a lot of people who

like in this case black people go to a movie and you're kind of like well I really what's it like at Apollo's house like how come we don't spend enough time getting to know you know what Apollo's life is life

when Rocky's not around There's not enough of that. And so what would... Not to mention Duke. I mean, what was going on with Duke? Could they have a condo, an apartment? I mean, I just think there's a whole world that, that, I mean, so many times I'd go to a movie and just wonder what was going on with a bunch of other characters who clearly are interesting and interesting to the world of the movie we're actually watching, right? Like Rocky Balboa is friends with this person.

What's his life like? When Rocky, like separate from Rocky, who was he? Like basic instincts. Roxy, what was she up to? I mean, did she have a job? But I do wonder, because Roxy was living alive. The Roxy spin up. I fuck with Roxie.

I mean, doesn't every, I fuck with Roxy. I mean, Roxy didn't just win the Deanne Waiters. She tried to make out with it. When we did that, we did that pot. What a movie. Oh, but yeah, like, it's such a great point. Like Apollo is,

Apollo is a boxing legend in the film the standard of boxing and he really only shows up as Rocky's Jimmy Cricket Right yeah And then so there's so much

Fertile ground We didn't even know how much fertile ground Remember Rocky 4 He's in the pool watching He's watching a TV Of a Drago interview in the pool And he got to fucking And he gets mad

And it's like What's going out with this guy? Yeah What else is he doing Some manners about America Yeah And then he gets So this movie, it's a vampire movie.

It's a one-location horror action movie, which is a 50-year franchise. It's a blues movie. It's a religious critique. It's an all-in-one-day movie. Everything happens in 24 hours, basically. And it's a movie about 100-plus years of black culture, all in the same movie. Is there anything I missed? Six things.

It's six different movies in one movie. Well, and it's a little bit horny. In there, you've got these, these other things, right? It's a father-son movie. It's a brother's movie. It's a sex movie. It's a twins movie. Yeah, I mean.

This movie gets its horns on a couple times. Oh, yes. I mean. It's a movie about Cunnelingus. Yeah. I mean, the. A boy's journey with Cunnelingus. That was the original title.

A boy. Yeah, they changed it. Didn't test well. Boys, dream. Boy's Journey to Cunningus. New from Focus features. Sounds right. Focus would do it.

Tested terrible. You got the right studio. Focus would have done it. I'm sorry and interrupted you. Is there anything else you'd put out of those six? I think that kind of covers it. I mean, there's so, also, it's a musical. That's probably the biggest thing that.

It's a musical. So that's from a rewatchable standpoint. There's a couple of music scenes in this movie. I mean, including the famous one. but holy shit. Just like all time, all time music scenes. So have you ever been watching a movie

where the characters in the film are having so much fun, but they're not necessarily at a party that you would want to be at? Yeah, this is, yes. This, like, so Coogler, when they're making this movie, he's like, I want to make sure that people want to be at the Juke Joint.

That you want to party. with them. I want to make sure the people look good. They're glistening. The sweat is good. And look, something else. We in an era right now where people, they do this L.A. thing. When I first came out to L.A., I noticed how the clubs in L.A. are, right? The clubs in L.A. are like, this is how it goes. You go to the club. You're in there.

And it's a dude. He's sitting on the couch. You're doing like this. He's just saying hi to people. It's like there's one dude in that club in L.A. All he does is say hi to people all night. That's all he does. He just, oh, what's up? I always want to know who that guy is. I always want to know.

You see, he's like, the most intriguing person in the club is that guy. Yep. Yeah. So every once in a while, he does this thing that I hate. If you are a celebrity, stop doing this. Stop seeing people and doing a little prayer hands. Oh.

And they go, thank you so much. And then it's a girl doing this. In Louisiana, the prayer hands are tough. I hate the prayer hands. Unlike the prayer hands. Stop. If I say, the next time somebody

What does it mean? I was praying for you to come here and you've arrived. Prayer hands. It's like, hey, man, I really fuck what that records you put out. But thank you so much. Hey, nobody asking for the prayer hands.

Just be like, yeah, man, we work real hard on it. Break out. Like, so... Does Superman get hot as take? It's just so much easier. I mean, I like that this drives you crazy. I hate it. You hate it.

Okay. I look at... I have two different types of celebrities. I got prayer hands celebrities and regular celebrities. I remember one time I went to, I'm just going to drop a name. I went to a YG listening party.

I told YG I liked the record. YG was like, yeah, you fucking with it? That's cool. I was like, he didn't prayer hands me. That's a real motherfucker right there. Way to go, YG. He didn't give me the prayer hand. That just made me a huge YG fan.

But I'll say this. In the South, at least when I was, I don't know how things are that I've been as home and part as much. Nah, man, we go into these parties and we go in looking great, all dressed up. We come out sweating. We are dancing. We are...

I bring two shirts. That's a Wesleyan more staple. We are celebrating. He's the sweatiest club guy who ever lived. I bring two shirts. No, he loses like five pounds of sweat at some of these places. I've seen it. So when you're inside a club, you really have to have a sense of

the vampires ruined the greatest day of Preacher Boy's life. The vampires ruined a fantastic party. But conversely, man, the party is so good that even these racist-ass vampires want to come in. Want to come in. Like, which is really

the politics of the movie, right? I mean, is it time to get into that? Because I just feel like the sort of political intellectual achievement here, one of the achievements is that, which is that you found, he found a metaphor that also doesn't entirely feel

metaphorical because in the world of the movie, these vampires are real, they kill people, convert people, and grow a little army. But they also serve, they serve a metaphorical purpose, right? Which is that the moment they show, okay, so for an hour, you, were watching smoke and stack basically gather the resources human it's a put the band back together right yeah and to get the saturday night hopping and you watch them do everything to make the club the club and the minute after sammy does his number and you get the the sort of metaphysical supernatural

It ends with the number of the roofs on fire It finishes And it cuts right to the three vampires Remick is like Remick's like You mean I can I can get kill all the birds and I can get 250 years of music

In in one bite I pause that moment for Ben Because Ben's 17 now And he's in that I'm smarter than everybody else stage Like don't tell me what I know more than you. Like he thinks he's, he thinks he's a shit right now.

Right. So I paused that and I was like, true or false is this what the movie's about right here? And he was like, what? And then I explained it to him. And it was one of my moments where I kind of hit him at the newspaper, basically. I'm like,

I'm still smarter than your motherfucker. Did he get it? He got it. Okay. But I was like, you didn't figure this out yet. See, you're not that you're not smart than me yet. You're 17 year old little shit is Jimmy Iveen. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, no, I mean, throw a rock. right? Throw a rock. But Jimmy Ivan is actually great because he claims to come in peace. He he has an allies.

He forges an allieship, right? Like on his terms, I bite you, you fuck with me. Yeah. Because you don't really seem to have a choice. There's just so many things happening once the metaphor goes to town. One thing. And all of that, and in some way

it wasn't alienating. The thing that I still get that I... What do you mean by that? What I mean is, but with this movie and get out, these movies are direct criticisms of whiteness.

Right. They direct. I expected to come out of theater and Bill going, I should have had Wahlberg in it. Not too. I can't do two Walbirds in two days. But he fought with it.

The movie is, There's no way around it. The movie is a direct criticism of whiteness, and only the people that were trying to be offended by it actually were. Right. Which tells you just the powerful, the power of the medium. That says more about the person, though. Oh, 100%.

I agree. Yeah. Can I read you something a great writer wrote about this movie? That Sinners is a nightmare in which Blackguard is doomed to be coveted before it's ever just simply enjoyed. Jesus, who's that guy? Wesley Morris. Oh, I really?

Wesleyan wrote that. Two-time Pulitzer Prize winner, Wesleyan Morris. Fucking just dropping some knowledge out there. But I thought that was really good, though. Real quick, what do you think is more impressive? A Pulitzer or a Peabody? I have no comment. They're both wonderful awards.

May everybody win one? I think, I have a P-Buddy. I have a P-Buddy. Pulitzer's more important. I don't know. They're both great. Why? Why choose, V. Can I give you a couple more sinners themes other than Black Art Dune to be coveted

before it's ever simply enjoyed? The musically talented are called Griots in this movie, and their gifts attract evil. We were talking yesterday at dinner about why people get so famous that they kind of lose their minds. Like, why don't we care about this more as a society when we look at the people that have... The people that have really flown super close to the minds. the sun a lot of times just fucking lose it. And I was thinking like, do your gifts actually attract evil?

Yeah. Or is that just like a theme in this movie? Because I do wonder, you think of all the people who have flown too close to the sun and it went bad. Oh, I see how you're asking this. Is this a coincidence or should we actually start wondering? But this is, I mean, I think you, in the world of the movie, the evil that's attracted is not the evil of, well, let me think about this. All they care about in this, all the vampires

care about is preacher boy. They don't care about anyone else in this. I have a thought here. They want him. That's it. They want to take him and bring him into their fore. Well, he's the only music. Well, let me think about this because he's the only musician. They would have been, they want everything. No, but he's the only physical manifestation of the thing that drew them to the club in the first place. Well, he's the only one capable of doing what he did. Right. He lured the ancestors. He lured the past and the future. That song brought, you know, I lied to you.

By the way, I mean, we should talk about what a banger that song is. Have you seen the video of Miles Kane performing that with the guy who did the score? What's his name? Oh, Ludwig. I got a genius, by the way. The two of them just do it acoustic for some crowd as like a sinner's thing. And it's fucking unbelievable. I'm sure it is.

I'm going to talk about my. I have lots of my. song is coming later. I think two things. One about fame and one specifically about the way fame and the black part of it. This coming from just my TMZ brain. I think these people go crazy because we drive them crazy. And I think we don't mean to, but we do. Yes, we do. You think we mean to? That's what I said last night. Yeah, I think we drive them crazy. I remember sitting in the office and something very sad happening to someone and me talking to a producer and going,

man, I don't really think this is news. Like, why would this be news? And they just went because the person is a celebrity. Right away, because you have notoriety, it piques people's interests. And because it piques people's interest, they have all different types of attitudes and thoughts about what you should do

and how your life affects theirs. And that is just not, to me, a natural state of existence. No, nothing about it is natural. It's just not. I mean, obviously, some people can handle it. Some people can't. I think that we don't talk about it. And I wonder, I want, we don't talk about it as a disease. You know, there are a couple professional shrink-oriented people in my life psychologists and psychiatrists who definitely think there's some, that it should be considered a mental health situation

that people who are put in that zone to be prepared for? Yeah. Oh, interesting. I mean, if you look at the way influencers operate at this point, right? And the way that social media operates. It turns a minute out.

It completely changes, it warps people's understanding of reality. Their own personal reality. There's three different types of, I mean, three people for this conversation, right? musicians, actors, athletes. When you're an athlete, when you're like somebody like Tom Brady, and like you win the, you come back against the Falcons

and you win your Super Bowl, you become the goat, and you come back from 28 to 3, and everybody's just like, wow, oh my God, like this. I don't know how you're normal 10 years later after that. So there's that. Then you have the musicians where you're selling out arenas night after night, and everybody's just losing their fucking mind, and that's just your life,

and you're going from city to city, and you just get this crazy three hours of ad duration. I don't know how you stay normal there. And then actors, even, not only do they become famous, like the Leo type of famous, but I remember when I had MBJ on the second time in 2015 during Creed, oh, no, the third time. It was after Black Panther.

And he was talking about how Black Panther fucked him up because he, like, inhabited the role and he had to become, like, a dark person in that movie. And he couldn't. Like, killmonger. Stop. Oh, you're trying to start some shit. Okay.

You can't give him any red meat. Oh, my God. Okay. But he was saying he couldn't, they finished film in the movie and he couldn't get out of the place he was in in the movie. Like he couldn't, he had to, like, he talked about it. He had to, like, go get therapy. And it became, like, a new story because he admitted, like, I needed therapy to get out of, get out of that wherever I was. Of killmongers.

So when you're an actor. You have to, like, do that. I don't know. I think after like 20 years, you fucking go nuts. What if what you do is not just the best part of somebody's day, but the best moment in somebody's life? Right. What if that play that you made, like, somebody from Atlanta talks shit to me, I go 283. Don't matter how many.

Well, what would happen if you met Tracy Porter right now? I'm going to sit down and talk to him. You fucking bear hug him. You start crying. So the Saints won the Super Bowl. I did not think that that was possible. It was a ridiculous happening. So it's just a weird space to operate in.

And then this movie talks about something else as well. Man, when you hear them early recordings, I remember listening to you talk about some of this stuff as part of the 1619 project. When you listen to those early recordings of muddy waters or the music that was coming out of that time, you think what series of circumstances and events led to that man making that sound? Yep.

I always, that's the thing you always think about because they came, they were first. Yeah, you just go, what made him go? I have to sit down right here and get this out. And when that sound went everywhere, it was no different than what preacher boy did. The stones heard it. The Beatles heard it. Right. Everybody heard it everywhere and they want, I'm not saying that they were vampires at all.

I'm not saying that at all. But what I'm saying. You can not, not say. I don't want to say that. I'm not trying to say it. No, no, just keep going. Just keep going. Yeah.

So what I'm saying is when, like, the music actually did in real life what it did in the movie, everybody went, Jesus Christ, what is that? I want to get as close to it as I possibly can and let it push. me forward to connect in the same way. I want to make that sound, or at least I want to understand it. And those early recordings are hard to come by now, but when you hear him, it feels like he is speaking in an interdimensional language with the combination of the guitar and his voice and the emotion. And so, like, that part of the movie where Remit goes, oh, that feeling happens. like that

that's a real thing you what the fuck is that I gotta have you and then the movie orients itself around that but that's the point at which it like it the need to

I mean there's so many things happening with Remick as both a person who understands the rules of vamporism right like the need to be invited into the club that whole that whole

aspect of the metaphor right in order for this to work, you guys, I need you to believe in me in order for me to take this for me. For me to take it for you. You have to let me do it. I mean, that is how those Lomax recordings worked in a lot of ways. I mean, in the same way that you don't want to talk shit about Nick Jagger and Robert Plant. Like, I don't really want to talk shit about about those recordings, those field recordings.

But like, I think that there's an aspect of, and this movie understands that a lot of the history of the creation of black art has had to, in some way, if it's going to proliferate through an economic system, it's going to need a white person

because they control the system. And I think that there's some balance. I mean, this isn't even about, this is as much about it. about artists, but it's really not about white artists and black artists. It's about white business and black artists. And Remick's offer is so ambiguous, right? Like, I mean, we understand at the very least that these are vampires who have a job to do

in terms of biting the people. But they also stand for something. And it actually, I take that back because I just forgot the most important thing about Remick, which is he's part of a minstrel trio. right like when they arrive at the club they arrive as three people one's got a banjo one's got a fiddle and the other one's got a guitar and by the way they sound pretty good i like it i mean i like remix music in this movie yeah i was kind of innocent that's the joke of course when with wait what you like you that's what you liked bill for robin please get more robin queen but look at them go

Look at him got America. Bill's just got bit. But, you know, remember and I had a conversation about this movie for Cannonball. Well, but now is Cannibal. And we talked a lot about Pickpour Robin Clean as, you know, it's an old song, right? That these two black women would go around and perform. It made them very successful. And, you know, in the limited range in which two black women could be successful

at the turn of the century performing a kind of blues music nationally speaking but I mean they were very regionally known and this song was no secret it was popular and to think about what the song is doing in the world of the movie

we picked poor Robin clean like that is simultaneously vampirism of the most literal sense but also the metaphorical vampirism right like we are we are eating at the bones of a thing and that thing in some case could be black culture as we know it and that's the song that

they used to impress these black people were standing in the doorway being like what y'all want and of course there is one person because there's always somebody in the back who's just like wait i now i can't remember if it's if it's if it's if it's if it's stack or if it's married if it's Is it Mary? Who says, we got to go out? No, no. No, no what you mean? The person who's like, you know what?

They sound pretty good. That was that. Like, like, like, stack like this. Yeah, sac like this. Well, ironically, stat gets, gets bit becomes vampire. Right, but I mean, I think that that appreciation, I mean, I think there's something true in that moment, right? Yeah.

Which is, you know, so much of what is happening at that, in that doorway is really about the complexity of the relationship between black art and white music, or my white musicians, which is like when you got it, you got it. We can't, you cannot be denied. Well, there's a, there's a third theme that we're going to get to right after we take this break. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Sure, we're called the rewatchables.

And yeah, we usually rewatch movies obsessively, but every now and then we trade screenplays for e-books. Some moments, just call for it. Like when the credits roll and you're still in movie mode, but your watch list is empty. Or when everyone says the original story is better than the movie,

and you've got to see what the hype's about. Prime gives you access to a whole library of free e-books so you can swap the re-watch for a reread or try something new. Free e-books library. It's on Prime. So the third theme of this movie

that I had written down was something Stack says after he becomes a vampire. Because we're talking about the vampires trying to seduce everybody in the juke. Stacks telling his brother, no, it's better this way. You should come this way. And then he says, we was never going to be free. Yep.

Which is the third theme looming around this. Like, hey, maybe this is actually a better life for everybody here in the 1930s. Which is the most, there's just the darkest aspect of the smooth as you get. Yeah. Yeah. When you look at what those two brothers. had done to find their freedom. When you look at where they had gone,

they had gone to fight enemies abroad, they had gone to be gangsters up north. They had gone everywhere trying to search for whatever it is that they did not grow up with, whether it was safety from their father, whether it was respect in their community, whether it was love, right? one man couldn't love his a woman because she was too righteous.

The other man couldn't love his woman because she was too white. So whatever they were looking for and they were going out to find it, they came right back home and still had to deal with all the accrued interests of the horror that waited for them back in the South. And by the way, they were going to die the next morning. Yeah, the guy was going to... Those guys were all coming back to kill them and clean the floors. I got a nitpick there.

Okay, save it. Yeah. I think I might share your knit. Yeah, I got a knit pick there. But nonetheless, writ large, the knit aside, that I think I'd probably share, I can't wait to hear what it is. This, it's so crazy this movie is as popular as it is because it is a full-scale comprehensive tragedy. and no matter like everybody is trapped in their circumstances all the options suck the the cosmos of the of this of the gym crow delta means that there was no way that that any sort of white power structure was going to allow this club to stand right and i just even once you get to that post credit sequence which is essentially buddy guy

as old Sammy like sitting with the fact that he made it and you kind of can't believe I was like wow Sammy made it but also the what he made was the blues he is now the descendant of because we haven't even

talked about what Del Rilindo represents in his strain of blues I feel like he's an overlooked that character is kind of overlooked in the large I've not going to be on this podcast. We're not going to be overlooking Del Rey Linda's performance. It's the best performance in the movie to me. Holy shit.

And that's not taking anything away from Mike. But I'll say that you literally took something away from him. No, because Mike has a lot more to do with this movie. It's his best performance performance performance. I'll tell you something else. I wonder, so the movie is a tragedy. Everybody dies. Everybody gets fucked up.

The child's daughter is an orphan. Like all of those people in there died, they have families out there. The movie is a profound tragedy. There's nothing but blood left. The only person that is, the only people that are left are Stack and Mary. And I have not been able to understand

what we are supposed to take from that. Listen, fan. Like, Stack comes back. And he is now, I don't want to get too deep into this, but I was thinking about this. No, you got to get deep. That didn't get dressed like that by accident.

Stack comes back, and now Stack, is a vampire version of actual black experiences and expressions from the past. Now, he got the big Kooji sweater and the whole nine.

She's got door knockers. She's got the door knockers. I thought it was like literally Radio Rahim, like he has the stuff on his knuckles. Well, I mean, that's just a, yeah, that's just, but what I'm saying is in that situation, he's there. And if I was to look at that

in my most gallows, Alex Lee brain away. That character represents what we had to give up, which is literally the sun. Like we had to give up the sun. We had to exist in the night now. All he's got, he's decorated. He's ornate. He is going to live. He has, he has survived as something lesser and more grotesque. Not human. Not human than what the people around him were. And that, when I saw that because at the end but he says it though I'm happy stack is alive he says it was the happiest day of his life

yeah but it was 60 years ago he's smiling when he says it's the last time my brother is the last time I saw my brother and this is the last time I saw the son and I'm like fuck but he's happy and I'm happy he's alive

even though he's lesser than human than what he was before there were compromises made I have been thinking about the only thing I really think about with this movie in terms of what it means and where it could go. I don't know how committed

to intellectual property proliferation Ryan Cougler is. He is definitely a master at reinterpreting other people's IP, but I don't know if there's going to be like a Cinnor's 4 if we're headed that direction. So I've got... He says no. Plenty of time to think about

what is going on in that sequence. And the third time I watched it, you know what I thought of? The bridge from they won't go when I go the Stevie Wonder song people sit in just for fun they will never see the sun

they won't even show their faces for them there is no room for the hopeless sinner who will take more than he will oh my God I'm going to start crying oh no he got Wesley he got through

broke back down without crying I was going to cry they got Wesley for they will never show their faces for them. There is no room for the hopeless center who will take more than he will give. Um, he will

give. He will give. He ain't hardly going to give. Whoa. And it's Stevie like going from up here to down here from the mountain to the valley to acknowledge that there are these people who

have been forsaken or have forsook. And every time the three times I have seen this sequence with with smoke and

what's her face the Haley Steinfeld character as this vampire stack to me stack sorry and they're talking to this old man who we now

we've experienced as a younger person I'm hearing this I'm hearing that song who chooses death rather than be one of them I I hear I hear the they won't go when I go.

That's literally true because these people are never going to go. Right. They will live forever and they will never see the sun, S-O-N or S-U-N. Right. Right. When we saw the movie, the movie ends with Michael B. Jordan, the second twin dying. Right? And he's going to where Annie is with the baby and the credits came up.

And I started to get up and Vance like, hold on, hold on. Yeah, don't go nowhere. And I'm like, what do you mean? And then that whole other scene came in. Not only is it the best scene in the movie, I think it's one of my favorite scenes. Me too. I just couldn't believe how good it was.

And each time I watch it, it gets better. And I just can't believe the choice of starting the credits, but then skipping ahead was so interesting that they did that and not do the fast forward to 1992 or something to keep you in. It's almost like an Easter egg, but it's so much better than an Easter egg. No, it's a coat of. It's an epilogue.

I just, I can't believe they landed the plane on that. It probably shouldn't have worked. But not only did it work, it was, it's the, it puts, it brings the whole movie together in the best way. And also like, that buddy guy and just like, I just can't believe they pulled that off. They were saying he's 88 years old. They had to film for like 14 hours. They're in like the, you know, it's fucking hot.

And he just was there banging it out. And that's going to become a big part of his legacy is where does that sounds? because I think this movie's going to endure in its own way, you know? And he's so crucial of that part. Oh, yeah. Well, the idea that that person, I just kept wondering, because, you know, the blues song, like, I lied to you is not in any way a 1930s anything, right? Yeah.

The Delroy Lindo character is the embodiment of, like, the Delta Blues. And Sammy is something else. Preacher Boy is a completely, like, I would say, 1980s oriented blues, right? Like a Robert Cray kind of blues musician. Like late buddy guy. He wants his blues to take him everywhere.

Dr. Nelson Slim wants to stay right there at the same club for the next 20 years. Preacher Boy wants that guitar to take him everywhere. It's a little bit more accessible. Right. And I, you know, but what do they say when they find old Sammy in that club that night? Oh man,

this electric shit. I don't know about that. We like the old shit. Well, I bet y'all would. Stands to reason. Right. We got to keep moving. Michael B. Jordan. Fruit fail, 2013. Creed, Black Panther, Panther 2, sinners. He needed this one.

Interesting. That's our guy. He needed a great performance and a great movie, I think, for the catalog. Because I just think he's, you know, he's not 40 yet. I think the talent's there. He's been in our lives the entire century, dating back to The Wire and Hardball and Friday Night Lights.

And I said this to Ben when we did the video about it the last time. I didn't 100% know he had this one in him. I think there's stuff he's doing in this movie. And I feel like Wesley's going to zag on this. There's stuff he's doing in the movie that I didn't think he could do. First of all, to play twins, I just think is like a whole other level of hard acting. I don't like to be able to just do that on a set every day.

I felt like the twins were slightly different in ways that the more I watched the movie, I can recognize them. And I just think there's a presence with him. He nails the dialect. There's a physicality to him. It's like all the stuff he's good at. And it's just like perfect for him. And I was just really happy for him because I like him.

Well, it's a movie star role. Yeah. And so it. He needed it insofar. Every actor that's going to be a movie star needs one just like that. It's a movie star role. It's a movie where if that character doesn't work, if those characters don't work,

you don't have a movie. It's different. And by the way, this is the movie we always want Will Smith to make, right? During his entire prime? Will. Like something that actually really said something? It's a different thing, though, because Will Smith can do

He can charisma his way through. charismatic. I know, but I think Will Smith thought like Ali would be his version in this movie and it just isn't. No, but he is like so many other things that I find, I don't know. I didn't mean attack Will Smith, but you know what I mean? What I mean is this movie shows

Mike gets to be a little sinister. He gets to be smooth. He gets to be vulnerable. What you're essentially talking about from my perspective is every movie star needs a film where they show their entire range of talents. Like, every thing that they could do. It's kind of like

Leo and Wolf of Wall Street, to be honest. Like he didn't need it, but he kind of needed it. Really? Yeah. Wolf of Wall Street? Yes. Interesting. At that particular moment in time, you think he needed it? Yeah, because that and the Revenant combined, I think, raised

into just a different stratosphere. Yeah, but I think this is... And he was already doing great. This is slightly different because at the point at which Leo... Leonardo DiCaprio makes Wolf of Wall Street. He had done... He'd done Django, right? Like, one of the weirdest performances he,

nobody's ever asked him to give. I feel like he'd already, he's already done enough conventional movie star work. I'm just talking about a moment, a specific moment in somebody's career, when there's a shift and you can feel it, and they've elevated it in some way. This, to me, well, the additional tragedy here,

the extra narrative tragedy of this movie, is that the reason that we're talking about whether Michael B. Jordan needed this part or needed this movie to work in some way is that there isn't a lot for him to be doing as a movie star right now anyway. Well, part of that was his fault, though. He does two more Creed movies.

He tried, like, it's funny, because we talked about this one, I did a power of them 10 years ago, about let's map out the next 10 years. You got to do a legal movie. You got to do a buddy cop movie. You got to do your action movies. So he did his revenge movie without remorse.

Yeah. He did the legal movie, Just Mercy. He did Fahrenheit 451. That was like his weird sort of science fictiony movie. So he's checking the boxes, but none of them really hit like this. And this just goes in a different way. But I don't think that that's, I just think that the industry is, the industry was changing under his feet. Right.

Right. Like those movies didn't not work because of him. I mean, just Mercy. I mean, I don't think the movie is great. But I mean, there's so many deep and moving things in that movie like Rob, Morgan, and Jamie Fox. I mean, you just need him. Michael B. Jordan, to me, is like a Robert Redford, right? He's not the greatest actor.

He is extremely handsome and alluring. There's something about Michael B. Jordan that makes you want to know what else is going on in there. And every once in a while, some movies. or some co-star will will bring that out of him. It has to be brought out because he's not going to give it to you. Somebody's got to, like, lure it from him, which is why it's so interesting that he keeps working with Ryan Coogler, because that is the guy who can push Michael B.

who seems to be able to push Michael B. Jordan into these really interesting zones of both as an actor and consequently, not that he's, not that he, I don't know if he knows he's a movie star. But he's got the thing that we want from a person that we would classify as a movie star. So I was talking to somebody, I was talking to Kalika last night. And she was talking about F1. And she was just like, I don't know, I just like Brad Pitt. He was like, I just like watching Brad Pitt and stuff.

Like Brad Pitt just, she goes, Damson is so beautiful and he's such a good actor. But he's in a scene with Brad Pitt. and you're looking at Brad Pitt and you're just going like, you know, whatever. Don't make jokes about my girl, like looking at Brad Pitt. It's okay.

Really seems like she was looking. And seems fine with it. I was just looking out for you. I just look at for you. I just see what you're doing on that. But watch out for Kalika. And she goes, she goes, she goes, Brad Pitt just has, I don't know.

I'll say, do you know what he has? And she goes, what? I'm like, he has it. And there's really no way to really articulate it, but some people have it. Some actors have this thing to where you go, hey, I like this scene because this guy, this gal is in it. They have it.

It doesn't matter what you're watching. I think you and I, this is the one thing we've talked about probably the most since I've gotten to know you in the last 14 years. It's how do you determine whether somebody has it or not? And Hollywood is trying to push it all the time, but it's like you either have it or you don't. You can't. You can't make me think you have it.

It's like with the NBA, like, who's the face of the NBA? You won't have to ask the question when that face makes it. Yeah, we'll know when the face arrives. And it's not, Joseph Alexander, unfortunately. Okay, okay, all right. That's just not. Mike, we'll know when it arrives. Mike.

It's Anthony. Come on, why are we doing here? There's one person. Is Anthony ever? Hopefully, Anthony. Hopefully, he definitely has it. Mike has it. Yep.

But even when you have that, this is important. Even when you have that. you need a very flavorful creative gumbo. And you need the director or the creative that knows how to utilize it. And there have been very few guys that have been able to get there

without somebody going, hmm, I know which role this guy needs. Does Tom Cruise need to smile his way through a movie or is it, your homie, is that my briefcase? And so with Mike, but either one of them, right, both of those scenes like Mavericks smiling bright in 1986 or whatever, you go, wow. But at the same time, the guy in collateral, he's magnetic in the same way. Mike, this was the role for him to display the fact that he is a magnetic, unforgettable screen talent. And he brings it every single time.

It's one of the first times. De Niro and Scorsese is a good example of this, right? I think De Niro happens anyway, but he catches Scorsese. It's the perfect point of his life. Right. And that elevates it. I think, though, there's a couple things, right? I mean, what we talk about when we talk about both the it and the star maintenance is at bats, right?

Yeah. How many times you get to go up to the plate and, like, swing at some pitches? and increasingly now people's batting averages are based on way fewer at bats. And so when you get up to the plate now, it really matters a lot more how good your swing is. And I just don't think that Michael B. Jordan has had enough at bats. I mean, I've been saying, and I still kind of feel this way, like, I don't have enough data. I still don't feel like, well, no. I mean, I think that, but the question is what happens next?

But he's still, right? He's still, what, 38, 39? Yeah. I think he's under 40s, though. So this is going to be, this should be the peak of his career starting right now. But again, I just got to say, we are talking about, we, I feel like we're talking about this as though it's like 1999 or even 2010. What, like, if, if the movie isn't going to win him.

an Academy Award, or it's not going to make $450 million at the North American box office in two and a half months, that middle zone where the movie star is, the movie star is tested and the movie stardom is given a workout, that doesn't exist. Well, do we think he can win an Oscar for this? No. I think he'll be nominated. I think he could be nominated. But no, I don't.

But again, a nomination, I would bet anything he had nominated. I'll bet that right now. I don't disagree. And a nominate, like, tell you something. You better get nominated. If you got to stay in 1992 out here was bad. I mean, it's like he, he'd be better get nominated. Yeah, I mean, that's the way that I've been thinking about this.

No, this movie is going to, this movie will win for score. And we haven't even seen five months of movie. but it will win for score. The news, the news here is... Cougler has a real chance. What are we talking about? There's like 20 movies left to come out. And a lot of regular movies,

there have been some really good ones. But what I'm saying is that... He'll probably get nominated. But that right there is just so insanely important for him in his career. We go back and we talk about Ali. Ali was not what Will would have thought that it would have been from the standpoint

of the quality of the movie. I like it. We're doing on the rewatchables at some point. We both like it. I like it. I get that people for whatever. It didn't quite get there. I like the movie.

I'm always like the movie. But when you saw... There's some great stuff in that. When you saw Will Smith nominated for an Academy Award, it was like, oh, okay. I didn't know that was a thing. It was a thing. It was a big deal for his career that him and Michael

Man got together and made a movie that Rose to the critical reception to where he could have been nominated for in a category. Well, he should have gotten nominated for six degrees of separation. He definitely should have got nominated for it. You know who else that's been nominated? Ryan Coogler. Yeah.

39 years old. There's a class of directors. I want to throw this at Wesley. Coogler, Shizel, Greta Gerwig, Chloe Zow, Sean Baker, Robert Eggers, Ariaster, maybe the Safeties.

I don't know you feel about that. I have no reason to like kick them out of the club. Cord is going to, Cordes only made one movie that, but I think he's Jordan Peel. Well, he's older. Jordan Peel's 46. Oh, I see under 40s.

These are all like late 30s. Court's 43. Yeah, these are late 30s, early 40s. And then you could shoehorn Jordan and that too, even though he's 46. I'd say Trey Schultz is probably in this conversation. Yeah, but it's, great.

Bigger point is we have like a real class of creatives. That I don't feel like, you know, we talk about all the 70s, you romanticize like these different eras of directors. I think it exists now. But again, like we're still, like, well, there's two things happening, right? Yeah. I mean, Coogler even, if you look at the crazy thing about this movie is look at what this man has done.

Like, it, it, he is from the standpoint of what this town cares about. Like, he's made these people so much money. No, he's the man. He also, he has some spill birth shit, though. Right. This is what I'm talking about, right? No, he said probably the best commercial director we've had in a while. And just all of these hits in a row, just all of this money, they're printing money off him.

He hasn't missed yet. Yeah. Right? He hasn't missed yet. And I don't think that people think of him as a person who hasn't missed yet. No, they think that the way we've been talking about this movie, it proves it. Yeah. Right.

I think that one thing that's really important here, this is kind of both the point and beside the point. This movie came out in the spring, a dusty time traditionally anyway for movie releases. It comes out in the spring as a big hit. It's got ideas, but it's not a movie that was being sold as being an ideas movie. It was sold as a vampire movie.

You had to wait an hour to get the vampires. And people stayed and then they kept going back. I do think there was a buzz to it leading up to it. I think Cougler had reached a point where it's like Cougar's a vampire movie. My point is not that. And they were selling us Michael B. Jordan in a tank top. So like, I'm in mine. Yeah.

But the point, the point is, well, why are we pretending that what's happening isn't happening? Oh, the movie is filled with gorgeous people. I mean, beautiful people. They're beautiful people in the movie. You're giving us, you're given us Miles and Michael. I hadn't, I didn't even know Miles could act. I don't think anyone knew Miles could act He never acted

As a musician He wasn't unknown to me But Oh look at Wesley Fucking dropping I don't I mean I'm not I know about Miles

I don't know that He was on my blues redipard But Anyway I feel like This movie was Was advertising something to me That was very appealing

And not that hard to understand Yeah Michael B Jordan probably killing a bunch of vampires or zombies. What's funny is the movie was so good. You forgot about the vampire part the first time you're watching it for 40 plus minutes. And then when we finally have a vampire, it's like, oh shit, I forgot. We talked about this when we talked about the film before a little bit.

But there was one thing where I realized, obviously, because me and Sean were going crazy over this, when Coogler was able to successfully give a 10-minute dissertation, on how the film should be watched. Why he shot it in 70 or IMAX or whatever lists off all the... And that bitch got to like 15 million views. I watched every second of a 10-minute video

about a director telling me the best way to watch his movie. That was Fantasy's version of a diddy freak off. He was covered in baby oil watching it. Just going that, dressed it all way. Oh, my God. So I'm like, all this shit different. And by the way, he is not in any way giving the audience a break.

This is the thing that I like about what he does. Now, he's not giving you a break. He's making you come to these ideas, these heady ideas, because they're too delicious for you to pass up on. He's saying, look, shoot it like this. This is five, Perth. It's 15. Is this?

This is the different things. Blah, blah, blah, blah. and people went for it. That made people more excited to go see the movie in the more expensive format. Yep. In the format that was going to drive the box office of a movie up. It's incredibly filmed and directed.

They film it for IMAX. The famous one-shot scene with Sammy's song, they couldn't actually, with the IMAX, they couldn't actually just do the Scorsese nightclub one-shot all the way through because the cameras, so they had to like somehow stitch it together and make it seem like a one shot. But it was all stuff designed for

this has to look as cool as fucking possible. It still feels panoramic anyway. It's amazing. I want to come back to what I was saying about the directors and what has changed. I feel like the industry is, we are now more reliant. This industry is now more reliant

on people that it sort of took for granted for years and years to give it credibility, which is basically our tour of filmmakers, right? like these people are now more important than they ever were to the to some studios bottom lines so you want joel schumacher to start schumacher to start making movies again well listen if if he's gonna come back if he's one of the vampires but i mean i do think for as much as for is like bad as the joel schumacher movie was as a movie he really understood something about american popular culture right he understood what a movie was an He spoke to Van and I. I liked it. Eight millimeter, two? Eight millimeter.

I mean, the lost boys. This is what I'm saying. Like, I mean, we don't have a Joel Schumacher now. We don't have anything like a Joel Schumacher. What a luxury to not like a Joel Schumacher movie now. We're behind schedule. So I got to move to Preacher Boy quick. Sammy Moore, who learns how to please woman from Stack.

There you go. He learns how to stand up for himself from smoke. He learns how cruel. the world could be from Delta Slim. And he learns that religion doesn't necessarily make you a good person from Remick. He takes all of these lessons, has a great blues career, opens a club called Perlines, has some scratches on his face, but other than that, goes through. And I guess we're supposed to believe he was one of the best blues musicians.

Yeah. That's how they're setting it up, right? Like he's one of like the guys. But he's played by Miles Caiton, who I, knew nothing about when I saw this movie. I had no idea of the backstory. It's his first movie ever. Cougler and his casting director get audition tapes from all over the world because he's

like, this movie fails unless I find the right person. And everyone's sending him stuff. And Miles sent him something. He was like 18. Cougler didn't know who's a child prodigy, son of a gospel singer, performing his whole life basically, but wasn't famous. And Cougar knew right away, this is it. 20 years from now, this might be more of a Miles Kate movie than we were discussing now if he becomes like,

I guess the question is, what's the ceiling for this dude? Because he's fucking awesome in this movie. Yeah. I don't know what happens with him. It's the, I don't have to keep beating this drum, but like, what are the move? Like, give him the work. Let the screenplay. But maybe he's just a musician, though.

Open the screenplay floodgate and let him. But maybe this is the only time he acts in a movie. I don't, like, something will happen to him. I just don't know what it's going to be. I'll tell you this. Anytime Miles Keaton's coming to town, the ticket's been bought. You know what I mean?

Because if you watch him actually in concert, like he's, you know, he tones it down for a preacher boy, but he's got, he's a charismatic performer. Yeah. They don't make them like this.

They stopped making him like this 50 years ago. I don't know where he came from. Stop making him like this. Well, I'm saying like, he's like out of like, out of like three other eras. 50 years ago? Okay.

Stop making such a deck. So, okay, so there is there is the Stinger, the mid credits, and then there's the Stinger, and the Stinger, he just picks up his guitar and he starts singing, and I'm like, what the fuck is this? I thought they were dubbing his voice the first

time I saw it. I was like, how is this voice coming out of this kid? Did you, like, the look on Stacks' face when he had never heard Preachie voice in the car. In the car. In the car. That's the same way that I felt. And by the way, you can get somebody in there to sing

them songs. Had he had a lot of acting before this? Never. No. That is phenomenal. Phenomenal performance. And I'm glad you mentioned that because that's my favorite moment in this whole movie in that final scene when he's talking about when he's talking about

a preacher boy's voice and they have the flashback of him hearing it in the car. And now it cuts back and he's the vampire in 1992. And it's just really good. like just couglas's just good at stuff yeah i mean but that moment there are those two moments there are two really well we can talk about it we yeah all right we'll keep going uh ludwig caronson i think that's how you say it gorinson i should goronson ludwig gorenson gorenson i don't know i'm gonna mess it up uh he's already won two oscars yeah he did creed black panther tenant up and armor

sinners he's doing the odyssey so when you're ryan cougler's guy And Chris Nolan's guy. Yeah, you're the man. It's a good place to be. And Ryan and Chris seem like they have a good relationship. You know, I first heard him, he was very instrumental on one of my favorite albums of 2010, which was... Was it Childish Gambino? Yeah.

Because the internet. Yeah. Childish Gambino. When Donald was still finding himself as a musician, and he drops his weird, brilliant. avant-garde really sort of masterpiece and that's when I first heard of Lowellick I didn't even realize he was as into the movie stuff

as he was until about three years ago I'd only know well I mean I guess I did three and four years ago he's basically like New Wave John Williams yeah I didn't connect the dots between the Donald Glover the Childers Gambino stuff and the and the movie stuff yeah because there's such different I mean these two worlds have I mean you know to the ear have nothing to do with each other, right?

And he got a lot of direction from Coogler, because Coogler had all these sounds in his head for the scenes, and one of them was, he kept thinking of Metallica, and he wanted, like, a certain couple moments in the movies to kind of kick in, almost like a Metallica song would, so they figured all of it out.

It's so interesting the way rock music ideas figure into how we're supposed to understand tragedy and horror. in this movie. Yeah. And I think it's such a bold choice because it's so not explicitly. Those chords aren't black rock and roll chords.

Those chords are, those chords are metal chords, right? I mean, you can do a tree that gets you from Black Sabbath to the Delta Blues. But those chords themselves. when you're just kind of banging them out like that. I mean, they're not banged out. But they're essentially familiar from another

zone of American popular music, right? Or, you know, just popular music in general. And they're used here in this world of exploitation, like force collaboration,

the way that different musical styles are functioning here is really kind of hard to sort of map out and and process because they're just kind of presented and you I'm still not sure for instance what to make of the Irish jig that happens in the middle of the movie that turns into kind of like a grungy mosh pit situation where like really what we're looking at is a is a kind of Nirvana concert honestly and the way that that the the turned clubgoers who are now Remick Acolytes have essentially become moshers alongside

this guy while also Like your biscuit? Well, I mean, actually, that's not wrong. But I think, first of all, I love that scene. I think two things are happening. One there. One, Remick has his own culture. That's the first thing. It's not devoid of culture. No, it's definitely cultural. Yeah, like he has his own culture. And

number two, once they are in with him, they've completely lost any autonomy or objectivity. Right. They are loving everything that he is doing. He is the best dancer they have ever seen. He is the best singer that they have ever seen. Like, the people who they were just before they got bit are completely gone. Like all the soul that they had. all the, just their, their culture, their outlook, everything is gone.

They are just, the only way to be close to him is complete uncompromising worship and oneness. He will accept nothing. Well, you know what's really interesting. There's that moment where the last person I think we see get turned is the Omar Benson Miller character who was supposed to be watching the door and keeping everybody from you know, he didn't know he was keeping vampires out, but if he hadn't going to take that piss,

this might not have happened. But when he gets turned, there's this, the only time we see this happen in the movie, he's prone on the ground and he sits up and he goes, like he just woke up. Like he just,

like he just got woke. And it is, peabody-pity-poles. Yes, just Peabody Pulitzer moment. Should be a category. The Pwley's Peabody Pulitzer moment. Peabody Pulitzer moment. Anyway, the point is, like, that to me is obvious, it's deep, but also opening up this other line of argument about blackness, what people, what freedom looks like.

right? Because at this point, Bramek has made his pitch, right? You've got to join us over here. We are about love and peace and freedom. And, you know, to paraphrase our current president when he was talking to try to get black people to come vote for blacks and Latinos to come vote for him. He's like, what do y'all got to lose? You can't do worse. The clan's about to come get you. Like, wait, yeah. Come join us in, in living death. It's better over here than whatever's about to happen to y'all tomorrow because he would have known about this too because right he turned he turned

a Klansman one of the members show up at the club he tells him he goes that he goes uh like that motherfucker is his uncle like this this whole place is a as a tomb anyway it's like this is a big funeral like you guys that you don't have a future here your only future is with

me you're precisely right couple actors we have to mention quick Haley Steinfeld yeah Josh Allen's wife Josh Allen's wife Oh, that's right. He got married real quick after this movie. He married her real quick.

He liked it down fast. Did they speed it up? Did they change the date? Like, she was immersed in a new audience there? Yeah. He was like, I'm not going to stand right now. He saw her with Michael B. One time and was like, we need to get married fast.

Yeah. He's like, there's not a lot of people I can lose my future wife, too, but there's one. Yeah. M.B.J. She's great. I've always liked her. always had stock. Ridiculously talented. I love that just 17.

I thought she was really good in that movie, but she's just always been good. I love her vibe, everything. I love how she lays back in the last scene when they catch up with Sammy. Oh, yeah. Because she doesn't have any lines, but she's just all presents.

And it actually works, but I think this movie's a huge one for her. I got to say, when she gets off the, you know, I mean, most rewatchable scene, when she gets off the train. Her first scene. She gets off the train. She comes over.

Sammy sees her coming. And I guess I guess smoke sees or stack sees that he's there. That she's there. And

the kid's like, yo, what do you? And she walks up and she's like, so you're going to fuck me and then never call me? Like, you know. I have the line. What is it?

I heard you loud and clear, but then you stuck your tongue in my coos and fuck me so hard. I think you changed your mind. Yeah. I mean, talk about the blues. Yeah. I mean. Coming in. She delivered.

Yeah. There is a way. She, like, I'm sorry. I hate to put it this way. If you give that line to Kim Basinger, who I could have believed would take a part like this once upon a time and we would just accept it. She doesn't nail it. She doesn't, like.

Van, go ahead. This person. lives in a lot. Want to put her in? The white girl whole thing? Yeah. No, okay. So But complicated. Because she's a Negro. She, we found out some things about her.

So what half-fam does she go in? I'm just, I don't know, because I'm trying to break the news to Bill. Oh, okay. You just lost one. You lost one. She's like, what do we find out? She's, what is it? Her grandfather is black or half black or something like that?

Her father, I think. Something like that. Yeah, something's, there's something there. So what I'm saying is... I'll cancel the ceremony. Well, now you've got to have a different ceremony. She was great. Delroy Linda.

I almost did this as my hottest take. Is it possible the two greatest roles of his career have happened in his late 60s, early 70s? Are you thinking about the Spike Lee movie? Yeah. Interesting. About the five bloods? Yeah.

Interesting. Whether you like that movie, or not. I do not. It's an awesome part. I was looking back at all of the parts he's played, trying to figure out what his best parts were. So we got West Indian Archie, which I love. He's been a lot of stuff over the years.

Clockers. Clockers is a great role from him. You remember Clockers, right? Yeah. The dad. That's why I didn't do it as a had his take. I couldn't carry it. In Crooklyn. But this one was Delta Slim's pretty great. Yes. Get Shorty.

That's what we did, Delo, Lindo. sexy del. Yeah, like, that's really good deal. What's the point of being in LA if you're not in the movie business? I love Get Shorty. Have I done that yet? Rewatchable shit? Haven't done that one yet.

So good. So good. Could be an Elmore Leonard month. Weirdly timeless, too. Strangely. But the thing I love about this performance is that it is funny. Like, he seems to be completely unashamed of two of the grossest lines in the movie. Or like, most ridiculous lines.

in the movie anyway. And, but he gives the, the most powerful, one of the more powerful moments in the movie is the speech after they pick him up, he's recruited basically to perform in the club because he's, he's Delta Royalty. Everybody knows who he is. Need a bet the Jew. Yeah.

And there, there, it's, it's, it's, Sammy, what's his character's name again? Delta Slim. Delta Slim. Delta Slim. And, and, and, Smoke. Stats.

Stats. They're in the car together, and he gives a speech about essentially that aligns the blues with lynching, essentially. And there's a way in which he delivers that, he tells a story about somebody who got lynched, essentially. I'll cut it short. But the way that Del Rilindo delivers it,

it kind of it is its own blues it stands in for the development of a history of an aspect of this music but not the whole music because another thing I love about this movie is that it is blues as a cultural experience

as experienced by people who danced to danced to this music because this was dance music for us and it was a whole life of joy and and excitement and just jubilation. It wasn't just my baby left me

and I don't know what I'm going to do. This was club music. And I think that the story that he tells in that car is a really crystal, clear allegory or parable for how the music as an art, how a wing of the music as a sort of cultural expression and the expression of a circumstance comes to be.

You almost don't really, if you never heard another song in this movie, you'd be okay because that story as delivered by Delory Lindo is so powerful. And I believe, I can't remember now,

does he play? I think he sings a little bit at the end of the speech. Yeah, on the car. Well, he's banging on the car door. With his harmonica there. Yeah.

I mean, it's, that is a great scene. He's one of those guys when he pops in the movie. You're just happy to see him. Yep. Say, hey. Yep. Jack O'Connell. This is a really big movie for him.

And I think, I think he gets nominated too. Interesting. I think it's going to be, the nomination is it could be interesting for this movie. I have that. Because we didn't even talk about Annie yet. Because she's also really good. Oh. She is a force.

When she was like, she is a. she's of all the characters in all the movies that legitimately reminded me

of the women that I grew up around this was the one like you know my mother and other people or my sister

who do practitioners I don't know if you knew that we've discussed right they do root work I was I was waiting for

van to dive into Annie. Yeah, like, figured you had some annies in your life. Yeah, I was waiting to dive into Annie too. And, and so what I'm saying is, like, and there's something else about this. Like,

that is a beautiful, sexy woman. I mean... And Hollywood has turned their back on the brilliant beauty of a black woman

in I don't want to say her natural form because black women are natural and beautiful in all different types of way but that type of black women we love them and when a lot of people were like you know when I first saw her and Smoke in that scene together

I heard some people on the line have been like I thought that that was like Smoke's mom I saw some people saying that Yeah that's you've been poisoned by the movies Not the un-initiated. You've been brainwashed by Hollywood. Like right away, you could see that a man like that, in that situation, had a woman like that.

And really, she grounds his character. Look at small things. She makes his performance more interesting at 100%. Look at small things in the movie. Like, you would think that the movie would be dripping with massage noir if you're talking about male and female dynamics in the movie, right? when Remick is at the door, not Remick, when Cornbread is at the door and

he is talking to Smoke, she goes, don't talk to him. Talk to me. And Smoke doesn't interrupt her. Smoke doesn't get in the way. Whenever Annie speaks, Smoke knows that she's in charge.

She's speaking with love and wisdom. Yeah. Right. And authority. And authority. And he, and, and, and, and, And he defers to that. And he is accepting and appreciative of that. Just very authentic and beautiful. And, you know, something else I'll say about the movie is the love story in the movie that everybody was talking about was, or the coupling of the movie that everyone was talking about was the coupling between Stack and Mary, which has its own.

that's a whole other Hollywood history in the movie American history but the the relationship that even from a chemistry standpoint that grounded this movie to me was smoking Annie

I mean just thinking about just think about I would I mean I don't know this is probably answerable if you just called these three people up on the phone but I mean Coogler knows the whole

whole history of like large black women in Hollywood what a woman who is built like Annie would be doing in a movie because we have a hundred years of that archetype doing that work often to the left often for the laughter of an audience um I mean the the the limitations placed on black women to only do service work because they were dark skin, because they were full figured. Thick women had one job in the movies, and it was to serve a white person in a uniform, or to do that work in some other guys, but essentially you're doing service work. And here, that club, she is running that club.

she is trying to heal from a terrible thing that happened to her. The thing that I love about this performance is it's capacious enough to sort of convey the authority, but also the hurt, the vulnerability. She's the person who knows the entire, she knows what's going to happen. And she's like,

you know what, don't turn me, kill me. The character is like, I'd rather die, but there's something. This was my son's biggest nitpick. with the movie was he didn't understand how Annie knew everything right away.

Like how she knew immediately, oh, these are vampires. And I was like, no, no, no, that's, there are people like this. She fucking knows shit. Like, you just have to go with it, Ben. So she's like, come on. She would know that right away that this is. And I was like, yes, yes, she would. Man.

But this is my annoying 17 year old. Like, just real quick, my dad. My dad. my dad would argue with my mom to a point and then he would just lead a house and I'd be like, yo, where are you at? He'd be like, son, what you don't understand is that your mama and your grandmama

is some hoodoers. And I ain't about to stay in here. I don't want no hacks. For the next four hours and get hoodooed by these women over no cable TV. Like you can eat with what? You'd be so on edge about it. He'd be like, did you walk outside and see cracked eggshells all over the front?

He's like, that was for me. Your mama's trying to hoodoo. And he would be going like the end of two. So, but when you had a question about, you know, if you were scared or like, if you would, you would go to them, you'll go to these women and they would give you spiritual and energetic answers. And we see her, like, there's a kid who's like when, when he gets. to her for the first time.

There's some kids whose parents, whose mother basically sent the kid over to Annie's to like... She's great. $100 million budget for this movie. It made $3606 million in counting. Second highest grossing original horror. Is that North America or globally?

That's got to be global. That's globally. That's everything. Second highest grossing original horror film domestically behind the $0.00. Oh, interesting. Number two of all time. Pretty good.

Was the 6th is rated R? It was, right? Yeah. Was it? Yeah, had to be. Yeah. Bruce Willis was alive in the end, spoiler. Oh.

Tough. Wow. We're still doing that, huh? Tough. Be tough be for everyone. I hadn't seen it. Roger Ebert has been long gone. Do you want to hear chat GBT's?

Oh, no, no. Come on. We ain't about to replace Roger Ebert with chat. Do you want to know what chat? ChatGBT, GBT, BT thinks Roger Ebert would have said or no. Sure. I'm into it. All right, let's try it.

If Roger Ebert had reviewed sinners, his review would have likely been a bold, heartfelt appraisal, blending admiration for its audacity with a critical eye for its unruly ambition. Expect something like three and a half to three and three, and three, four stars. In true reber form, sinners dazzles, it overwhelms. That's a movie you must see for its sound energy and invention. Go in, ready for the ride. I've thought a little Roger Eberty. Sure.

Shout out to ChatGBTGBT. And the AI that's going to take over all of us when we're all dead and the rewatchables are still happening with AI avatars of our voices. I can't wait. It's really, let's take a break and we'll do the categories. This episode is brought to you by Apple and AT&T. Scroll long enough and you'll hear it all.

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Most of we watchable scene. Smoke goes downtown, shoots a thief, makes a deal. We talked about the two sides. All that is mesmerizing. Yeah, I like that. The train scene we already talked about. Preacher Boy meets Perlene.

Haley comes in comes in hot I like that whole this doesn't happen in movies all the time when the hero the girl from the past and they pop in

and just when you see the life sink from their body for a second I'm like oh boy this is going to be good oh all right I'll put my seatbelt on

for this something's happening something interesting about that saying first of all when they're introducing both of those guys is essentially

what these two scenes are. They introduce smoke with his gun. They introduce Stack with his mouth because that's each person's respective superpower. Smoke is your enforcer and your protector. Stack is your smooth talker. You think that

Stack is afraid of Annie because she's white, but that's not really why he is afraid of. Not Annie. Oh, Mary. Mary. You think that Stack is afraid of Mary because she's white, but that's not really why he's afraid of her. He's afraid of her because he's in love with her. And he doesn't want to have to confront the feelings that he has for her and the fact that he abandoned her and used the fact that she was white.

Oh, interesting. Like the fact that he ran out and used the fact that they couldn't have what they were supposed to have as the reason why he did it. And that becomes very, very, very apparent as the movie goes on. And as she continuously pokes and prods him about the fact that you don't have to be scared, you don't have to be scared, you don't have to be scared. And it starts right there. Yeah. I mean, interesting.

We didn't mention it's a quick one. And the research on it's more interesting. But when we first see the twins and they do the cigarette trick, that was apparently very complicated. But it could be, it's a borderline mini scene for most rewatchable. But the science of having. Having Stack light the smoke for and then doing the lighters, but having one actor do that and make it seem like it was two was like the hardest thing they had to do the entire movie. Wow. Yeah, I'll go through that in a second.

Split screen technology still has a, it's still hard to do it. It's the best it's ever been, but really hard. Vampire Ropoopo, poor Burt, ever had a chance. When, when I was Vampire Rupertope? What was Vampire Rupertob? When Remick, when he When he Oh, when he gets this out their house

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm giving this a special Okay, motherfucker! Award for the exact moment When the movie goes up a notch. Oh, when Remick drops out? Yeah, for sure. When he takes out to do vampires.

Sammy Sinks, this is the best thing in the movie other than the ending for me. This is my second, my number two most rewatchable. I want to know what Wesley thinks about that particular scene. This whole scene when they bring in just the way it's shot, the camera

angles, everything. I just, I think it's just a mesmerizing five minutes. Incredibly polarizing. This is a very polarizing. I just think it's incredibly rewatchable to watch, but I also understand the cases against it. So go ahead. I just wanted the whole song uninterrupted

by the weight of the future in the past. I just didn't, I didn't, like this is, that sequence is so up my alley. That is my entire intellectual project, right? Yeah. One of the things I care most about as a critic. And

for me not to like it, something is going wrong. So you didn't like it? No, I didn't. First of all, I... Interesting, even with how inventive it was. To say it for the for the fourth time in this conversation, I love that song, right? Yeah. And I was falling in love with that song and that like the performance of the song and just the way

it's shot and then all of a sudden it's the strange it's it's always going to be one of the strangest things even when I've seen this movie 10 times which is when the twer who's first is it the twer no no it's the first

it's the guitar player it's the not it's the not record scratcher guys in there but it's yeah it's like playing the electric guitar um And you're just like, wait, what is that 103? 3,000? What is going on right now?

It's all that goes from the past and present, Wesley. Why are you explained? Okay, keep explaining to me. I think that the thing that I just, it did not work as a sequence to me. The argument is beautiful. I love the argument. You know, right? You like what it's trying to say.

I love the thing that it's arguing for and asserting is definitely true and powerful about this particular person and this particular piece of music, I am curious about why this song Love it as I do is the thing that does the unlocking. You almost convinced me a Y earlier.

But I don't know. It just didn't, it just, I'm one of the people who just found it to be excessive. Also, you're Peabody Poulter. Peebody Pulitzer now on Reddit. An anonymous name. Kill and Ryan Coogler. The breadth of this,

history that is being conjure up in this scene is both generous but also kind of confusing. You know, Chinese folk singers, the amount of African artists that we're that we're seeing. There is, it's generous to a fault in some way. But I also, there's a part of me that's like, oh, Wesley, calm down. Just this is a beautiful thing. Do you like watching it, though? It is arguing for a folkloric timelessness. But what about the visual of it, though?

I like when the fucking roof comes off. And then landing on the vampire, like, I just thought all was so cool. Like, because what happens? What world are we in at this point? But so, you know, once the club burns down. So we're in Cougars, like, I just want to cook for four minutes. So I have two thoughts. That's the first thought.

And the second thought is that it's supposed to be the scene where the movie becomes a supernatural fable. kind of it's earlier where Remick dropped out of the sky but the movie the reason why that scene was so fantastical maybe is because that's the point that the movie becomes a supernatural fable. The vampires are awoken up

and then the second thing I say is this. No, that that's a key point. You need it because we now move into the different part of the movie where now we're like things are going to get fucking crazy. I think my literal brain though go on. I know I get a lot people feel like this way by the way. But I think from also a philosophical standpoint, the movie means something from the creative standpoint, which that scene just means I'm going to do

whatever the fuck I want to do. That's fair. Everything in this movie is exactly the way I wanted it. If you thought the movie was too on the nose with some of the messages, I'm sorry, if you thought the movie was two on the nose with this. I mean, he kills the clan at the end. Actually, that scene to me seems a little bit more superfluous. I can never say that word.

I love the Klan murder. I like it a lot. I love watching it. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but that seems like a scene that was just kind of like, okay, this happens. Almost for no reason, but I, but I, but also in this, but there is a reason. There is a reason. I get it. And there's, it's a beautiful send off of smoke.

There's a couple reasons, though. Is it, there, there is a reason. But what I, but what I'm saying is, by the way, that's one of my most rewind. Watchable scenes. I like to... It's coming up later. But what I'm saying is both scenes, all of this stuff is just, we're making this movie exactly the way we want to make it.

And if it was any less authentic, it wouldn't have been what it was. But a lot of people are back and forth with that scene. I mean, it was, we were calling it like a week after the movie. It was being called the scene. Yeah. And I knew immediately when people were texting me being like, okay, go. I was like, oh, I know what you're talking about. And it was, it was immediately the thing that all the black people at my life who were seeing the movie were just like, okay, what did it do it for you?

And it really worked for some people and it really. It's funny because it really because I'm a white person. I watched it more for the filmmaking part of it. And I just thought it was so cool how they did it. And I was more put up in that. I was like, fucking coobleer. Jesus Christ. Sean saw the movie before me a little bit before me.

Sean goes. Yeah. And Sean goes, there is one scene in the movie that as soon as you see it, I want to know what you thought. Yeah. And I thought it was something grotesque or, I don't know, I thought maybe it was some kind of vampire abuse scene or something like that. And I was like, but when I was in the theater, I automatically knew that's what he was talking about. But this is the thing to love about this movie theater scene. Right.

Right. About this movie though, right? Yeah. Like, this is a, this is, I'm going to say officially. a vampire movie. But the, but the scene is this amazing tribute to the power

of black music to lure the vampires, right? Yeah. Like, the, the movie in the, in the movie's understanding of itself does not exist without this scene. So, I mean,

I know what it's doing and why it's there. I think maybe I would have preferred a musical number, right? Like, maybe you get all these different, get these drummers and DJs and twerkers and folk singers to like just devise a musical number for them instead of this this more spectral supernatural supernatural, supernatural, metaphysical way of, I don't know. But again, like, it is, I don't know if it's evenly divided, but there are as many people who think that scene as perfect as it is as people like me who think there had to have been a better way

do it. Can I have the final word? Of course you can. I support Ryan Coogler and I support true artists. I support artistic choices. Oh my God. That is just, oh boy. Now, you know what I love about it? Is he on the other side of the door right now? You know what I love about it? He knew it was going to be polarizing. That's fucking why he did it. And guess what? I still love that directors are doing that. He's like, you know what? I'm going to have this one scene. Some people are going to not like it. Some people are going to love it. And I'm just

doing it. Test it weird. Yeah. I'm sure. He got notes. I know he got a note. He got a probably a lot of notes. But I would say, I'm glad he didn't cut it as a person who is often asked to remove things from things that I think are great and wish could stay. So you win some, you lose some. I think he probably, this was a hill he probably died on. That's your fault because you don't work for the ringer.

Next rewatchable scene. You really, okay, Zeus, keep throwing the lightning bolts. The vampires get merry. Yeah. Outside is a great scene with a really good jump scare. Yeah, I love that moment. I love a moment where any... A jump scare.

That is good... But is it a jump scare or is it... First time I watched it, it definitely made it. Maybe when he flies? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody in the theater went, oh, fuck. Yeah.

I love that. It was so good. Everybody just, like, made a groan. Yeah, in the theater, it really was. It was just so, it was just like, oh shit, she's fucked. Like, it's a scary thing. But then there, but just let's think about, like, how well put together this movie is. You get that scene, like, Remick floats down from the sky behind her, and it's a cut back to the club.

To the people dancing. So now you've got to wait. Yeah. How is she going to, like, what guys is she going to appear in when she comes back to the club? It's, you're, the, the levels of suspense or the suspense, or the suspense. that are happening simultaneously here are really, really effective. And again, I was happy

with the first hour. I didn't need any of this. So I'm having an experience now that is more stressful than what I think I signed up to have. Mary Kill Stack is the next one. I mean, listen. Fucking crazy. Vain.

Fane would have taken it. What? That kind of sex, but then afterwards you get bitten and turn of them. Of course. I'm going. I mean, You're like taking it. Get right here. That's why I'm trying to. Do it a little lower so I can wear shirts

over it? Yeah, I'm going. Yeah. Smoke waste in no time. Smoke waste no time. That whole thing where there, this is what I love about the the, from dust till dawn,

Tales on the Crypt Demon Night style where vampires are on the outside, we're stuck in the inside movie. Yeah. I love the moment where everyone realizes that is vampires. The moment where Salma Hayek turns and from dust till dawn to where everybody's like,

fuck! Or like, and to where... That's what Annie says here. She's like, you hate now. Yeah. Says that the cornbread after. So say it again how she said? You hate now.

I said that incorrect. So, so, so... But, Like that moment in that room, smoke doesn't know what to do. Yeah. Mary just killed Stacked and just, like the whole thing is nuts.

He says the best thing about me was him. Yeah. That is, that'll, I mean, I kind of well, I mean, that got me.

That got me. That's, well, you don't even think MBJ's getting nominated. That's not my wish. That's not my wish. Whatever. I don't wish for him not to me.

He said, he was like honorable mention. Why are you doing this to me? Second tier. I don't. don't want that to not happen to him. I would love Michael B. Jordan to have an Oscar nomination. Next one, Stack comes back from the dead.

And he knows what to do right away. Next one, vampires make the case for taking preacher boy. And that's when when Stack does a we were running around, look for freedom. We're never going to be free. The big fight scene heading into the sunrise. I have some nipicks on the fight that will come up later. that sequence. But smoke gets Annie.

Not you. Stack has to kill Annie. Well, Stack. True love. I'm sorry. Did I mess that out? Smoke killing. We just always done it a couple of times.

Stack gets Annie yet. Sammy escapes. Twins have a fight. We think we know who won, but actually we don't. And then the sun comes out. It's always great to see the sun in a vampire movie. Yeah. You know you're safe.

There it is. Yep. Smoke dies after killing 12 KKK racists. This is Kugler who seems like he's doing, he has that one shot of MBJ coming at the camera with the machine gunner, like doing the Rambo. And it was almost like Kugler was doing the, fuck you guys.

You wanted your old school action movie. I'll give you this one scene, but I'm doing this like to fuck with everybody. I'll tell you something. That scene also was a great mindfluck for the trailer. Yeah. Because it. Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

Because, like, we hear that it's a vampire movie. And when the trailer first comes, there are no vampires. And then there's Michael B. Jordan shooting a machine gun in broad daylight. So you're like, wait a minute. What is it about? It's a good zag. And you really don't know because, and it's not until the movie that it actually makes sense. You know, those ads, I mean, I have to say this movie was delivered to the country very seductively.

to give it to us during basketball games and football games. Fantastic. It was so much better than the Jason Tatum's Superman ad but he had blown out of killies that just tortured me for four days. It's going to be okay. Last thing, the fake closing credits,

which wins the Kid Cutty Pursuit Happiness or Best Needle Drop as well. Only two scenes out of that. Okay, let's hear it. One remix dance scene outside with everyone. Yeah. It's intriguing because you'll never get to the bottom of it. loves that.

They was cutting up out there. And two, you know what scene? You know what scene I really like? River dancing. Exactly. I like the introduction of the childs where just from a filmmaking standpoint, which we might get to in Gratio Gordo, which that's going to be the hardest to maybe give out,

to ever to where he comes there and he's talking about the childs and getting everything together and you're seeing smoke, negotiate. The camera follows their daughter out to the other side of the restaurant where she retrieves her mom. The mom comes back, like that entire part. That just, it's a really amazing scene to me, like when they're introduced. The whole nine.

What do you have from us through, Watch, well? I think it's the end. I think it's that. I had the end as well. Perlene's overall, this is probably the ending of everything. What do you have, Craig? I think it's right when Remick floats and you're like, uh-oh. And things start to turn up in the juke joint.

I'm not, I'm not turning the channel. Okay. What's the most 2025 thing about this movie? I'll throw in, I didn't have this originally, but Wesley Morris, not liking the most important scene. I'm putting that in.

The Twins technology being really good. I'd put that in there. Coogler asking studios for first dollar gross, final cut, privilege and ownership, 25 years after its release. specifically 2025. But I am going with this movie premiered on Max,

which then turned into HBO Max after it premiered. It was the most 2025 thing because we had to change the name of the Max app. I like that. Yet again. I like that. Yeah.

The filmmaking technology, the fact that it took high tech filmmaking technology as far as what they were able to do with the IMAX stuff, how they shot it, to make the movie look authentically 1930s.

It took that much to make it look that authentic. Okay. What stage the best? I'll give you a couple. I always like this. Movies that start with the distinct scene and then we go backwards, we live a whole movie,

and then we circle back to the scene we saw in the beginning. Yes. Which some people try to pull off and fuck it up. I don't, but they don't fuck it up. I don't love that as a device. It's sometimes a lazy gimmick, not in this. Yeah.

Twins Technology mentioned. The survivors eating garlic cloves to make sure one of them might not be a vampire. I love that. I just kind of pulled from the thing. I enjoyed that. We mentioned the Chinese couple with the two separate stores that sell different things to different clientele. There's a whole Chris Rock thing in there that I didn't even notice until I did the research. When the clan guy pulls up at the end and he said, club jute, grand opening, grand clothes.

which is Chris Rock. I like the line. I know plenty of musicians. I ain't never met a happy one. Right. Yeah. Any movie character named Cornbread? You like that. I saw Cornbread Earl and me in the theater with Keith Wilkes. Cornbread Earl and me poster coming.

I love that movie. I know you do. It's a great movie. You rob banks and trains but won't steal this pussy for a night. She's got some bad. How about that? She's dropping it. And that was her as a vampire.

Is there a dirty girl half fan? Just Alexis, Texas is in all the off of fans. Don't make me live in that. I can see it turning. Don't make me live in that part of myself. But, yeah. And that was, you're talking about things that the theater was like,

because I saw it, I went to a screening of it, and then I saw it with, talking about things in the theater, people were like, oh, shit. Yeah. Because everybody, you know, they used to hear her talk like that. That's when Josh Allen was like, fuck, I got to get a ring tomorrow. God, damn it. Maybe I don't think we're going to that, Travis Scott.

I'm sorry, excuse me, they ran these lines. Don't think they didn't run. Josh is running lines with Haley Steinfeld. You think Josh was dressed up like stacked? I mean, Josh had to get her drop out. She, I mean, I don't know. I don't know, Haley Steinfeld's like, like, I don't know this cooier guy. She's kind of crazy.

he was definitely running lines with Haley. Cougler, here's a Wedage, the best. Cougar, they asked him if you want to do a sequel. He said, I wanted the movie to feel like a full meal. Your appetizer, starters, entreats, and dessert. I wanted all of it in there. I wanted to be a holistic and finished thing. So his answer was no.

He's definitely making a sequel. No, he can't. He'll do it in like 15 years. I don't want it. It'll happen. This is how the world works, sadly. If there's a sequel mate, I hope it's him, because if this was 19, 1997, the sequel would be straight to DVD

and it would be Sinners 2, The Sun. And it wouldn't star Michael B. Jordan. Oh, yeah. It would be... With Shannon Worry being this? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, if he does it,

I just hope that Sinners 2 is not made without Ryan Cooghler. I could give you a whole thing about how they filmed the cigarette scene, but I'm not going to do it. You can go read that online. Big Cohoon or Burger. Well, what other What Stage the Best? Do you have?

Anything else? I'm going to go with the look of the film. I'm going to give props to a higher learning guest. Autumn Durald Akapal, who was the DP. She shot the movie. And she came on Higher Learning and told us all about how she got to feel to look like it did, how she lit the film, everything about it. So it was fantastic.

Okay. Any other What Stage the best for you? I think that The movie just came out. It's a tough category. It's a tough category for what things of this. You know, Michael B. Jordan's, Michael B. Jordaness. Right.

Like, I think that is, I think people came for him and, like, stayed for Cougler. They did a pie chart of who came out for it. And MBJ was like 47%. Cougar was 43% for biggest reason. Yeah. I thought that was interesting. I think, and I wonder what happens. I don't know how you exit poll.

to find out, like, who won the movie. But basically, I think you would have been satisfied if this movie had just been Michael B. Jordan kills all the vampires. Big Cohoon or Burger were our best use of food and drink. Probably eating the garlic. No. It's Delta Slim and the beer, man. Oh, the Irish beer?

I had that. It was my other choice. Oh, interesting. For me, it was just that sequence when they're preparing all the food. Oh, interesting. Right? Like, that great kitchen sequence, which I could have used an entire five minutes of.

Oh, that catfish. Nancy Myers did the kitchen. Shut up. I almost. I'll leave it for a second. I'm going to leave. It's just funny. It's just when, when, because, you know,

Stack is talking to him and he's giving Stack shit. And Stag goes, okay, cool. And when he twists the top off the beer, the Delta Sim goes, oh. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he goes, he goes, And he performs for the beer.

I like the garlic only because I know the actors probably actually had to eat it. And I always like when real life intersperses with actors, where they're like, they're fucking eating garlic. 100%. Oh, interesting. That's a method acting shit. But you're eating garlic, you're going to act naturally as you're eating garlic. Craig eats garlic all the time.

Yeah, I'm a vampire. You think it was real? I feel like that was like chocolate that they painted to look like garlic or something. I don't know. hard to eat and how many takes you got to do with that? I mean, for everything Kug did in this movie, like, you got to have everybody eat the real garlic. I think there's so much other

suffering these people are being asked to deal with. Yeah, they got fake blood. I think eating fake garlic. That was in the research. There was a lot of complaining about how gross the fake blood was and having it stuck on your face and stuck on your chin. Well, there's an alternative. So, great shot. Gordo Award for most cinematic shot.

It's too tough. It's really, it really is ridiculously tough. I like Remic falling out of the sky. I just thought that scene where Remick falls on the sky. Oh, just comes to like lands to the earth. So that's like magic hour, which it has to be because the sun is going down because... Oh, to get to turn

the clansmen and the wife. Right. So Remick falling out of the sky the first time, he's, he's, the sun, he's sun bruised. Yeah. We're going to talk about, we haven't even talked about my homies, the Native American vampire catches. Oh, yeah. The smartest people in the movie. They got

one sec. That's the sequence. That's the sequel. Yeah, that's the sequel. They got one category locked up for sure. They do. But I just like that scene the way it looked. Even when he's sitting there talking and it's dust behind him, it's like

time is running out. Like, the whole thing, I just really enjoy it. I'm talking to me. Yeah, I love that sequence because it promises you a movie that you don't get. But also, I'm very comfortable. I'm happy to not have had it because I'm just their whole point is like, listen, I'm trying to tell you, something's going

on. If you got something in your house, give it to us now because we're not coming back. I mean, also, we're not coming back to this movie because we're here to tell you that the shit is fop. We're not doing it. The sunset's pretty cool how they film that in the end. But they're probably, the

movie is just a collage. It's full of the great shot orders. phenomenal shots, man. I think one of the ones we mentioned it earlier, but the flashback when they're talking in the end and it flashes back to them in the car and him hearing him play for the first time and how much joy he has in his face, I think is just really well done.

Random new category, or it's, you only use it sometimes, the Ed Norton reverse dunk award for did this movie need a random sports scene? Could we have like a baseball catch in here or something? Yeah. The old mitts, the two twins, like throwing the ball for each other? Like Delta, like Delta Slim is throwing the ball. He's like, fastest man I ever seen with a fastball, satchel page. They wouldn't even let him play in the league.

We just got to be out here throwing the ball around with us. something like that. Yeah. Like baseball, like something. Yeah. Weave it in. Chess Rockwell and Brocklanders are word for best character name. Pitcher Boys. Smoking stack's pretty good. Moken stacks. Preacher boys is pretty tough to be.

They got a bunch of names in movies. Wesley, you have a flex category. I'm doing a flex. I thought Van was taking the flex. You don't need to. I'm going to pass on my flex category. Butch's girlfriend award for Weeklink of the film. I have one.

I'm thinking. I'm thinking. The fight scene. It's eight people against 50 vampires. It makes it seems like it's in like an eight on eight. And there's like 50 vampires outside. And I don't understand how they just didn't all get bitten right away. So that's a pretty tough one.

I call this the blade conundrum. I've talked about this before. If you go back and you watch some of the fight scenes from like the original Blade movie, which the fight scenes are great. But is one, it's three people rushing Blade. Yeah. But really is one-on-ones.

Because one person is fighting Blade and the other person is behind. And the Warriors is like that. And they're in Central Park and it's three against eight. And they come one at a time with the baseball bat. It's like John Wick versus like 40 people in a room. But they all rush them. They all just like, one person is fighting Blade. And the first time you don't notice it.

But then the second time you notice it's like, yo, why the other person standing behind like twirling the stick? Like hit blade in the leg or do something like that? This movie is a lot of that. It's a lot of that. Because like the vampires retreat at all times. Like the stack one time goes to Mary, come on, let's get out of here. I'm like, why don't I just finish killing?

Mary runs out of the juke joint when she could have stayed in there killing. They don't even know that she is a. vampire yet. So there's a couple of of times that you're in a move. I take that as they need to be near Remick. Maybe. They have to, they're stronger and groups. Oh, he's like their Delta Star. Yeah, maybe, maybe. The Mallory

Rubin Award for Did this movie Need a Better Sex Scene? Mallory. Oh, you couldn't do, I don't know. Sorry, Mallory. The answer is no. Nah, I don't think so. Well, you want, did you want more nudity is the thing? Because there's no nudity, although there's some sex scenes in here. No nudity. I don't know. MBJ in the kitchen with Annie.

I don't know. Could they have kept going on that one? Gone for the NC 17? I think the spit, I think the spit. The drool spake? We didn't talk about that. Yeah, the drool.

I think when she drools into his mouth. That's when Josh Town got engaged. And he catches it. He saw that. Like, that is so much more than anybody he was asking for. Woods age is the worst already. I guess we have to call that the category. We mentioned already the coverage of the,

the first two weeks post-release about Is this movie gonna make enough money? So fucking weird. Thorily. How was that? This movie? It should have been a fucking celebration that somebody made a movie

that was a new piece of IP out of nowhere that was super creative. There was no other conversation to have. A lot of times we overreact on Twitter, but that's not one of them. I'm like, all right, man. Like, what the, what the fuck you do? Is sinners, it makes 50 million,

but is it enough? What are you talking about? Is it enough for who? Yeah. I mean, just like... And who sits around... This is like the NBA ratings conversation. Same thing.

It's like, who's sitting around like at dinner going, Hey, sinners, do you see it only made 51 million? Do you think that's enough for a Cougar? Like, nobody's in real... In real life is talking about this. It's week one. The budget was $90 million. Which...

I mean, which I have been told by some people who are doing some work with the studios that we're now in this new place where there's a... a class of movie that the studios want to try to make which is called responsibly budgeted. Yeah. Right?

Between 70 and 90. Congratulations. But responsibly budgeted is like under 15 or something like that. Or like I don't know what the I don't know if that's an official number but like everybody's got their responsibly budgeted seal it. But 90

like 75 to 90 is the other side of responsibly budgeted, right? We're like there's the whole 74 to $17 million like zone where like nobody can get a movie made for that much anymore.

Like that's money not worth spending or something somehow. I don't quite understand the finances on this. The deal that Coogler made, which became a big topic in a lot of ways, this is future stuff. Warner Brothers was like falling apart. They needed the movie.

Like they were going to do whatever it took. It's like if you have free agency one year and somebody signed some like Deshawn Watson gets a no trade contract. act and 230 million guaranteed from the Browns. It's like, they gave him that because they're the fucking Browns. He wasn't going to go there unless they gave him the contract.

And then people always miss that part. Who's the Deshawn Watson in this scenario? No, I'm just saying, I'm just saying. Tough, tough example. All right, guys. We're on the same team here. I'm saying Warner Brothers is the Browns.

Okay, fine. They're a fucking mess. They got to do it to do to get the movie they want. Everybody wants to play for Warner Brothers. There's one difference between Warner Brothers and the Browns. Boy has Warner Brothers They figured it out Yeah

They figured it It got figured out Because they did this deal It was a crazy deal That wasn't so crazy Because they got this movie And they needed to lure That type of talent away from Disney

They don't He'll jump off my car Anytime any chance he gets Well it's fun It's just like Because you Because it's just funny It just hopped out of the car

I didn't even land at the metaphor yet Cleveland Browns Warner Bros But this, but Deshaun and Watson also. But wait, can I, wait. He was a piece. The, the question really is how the, like, oh little, oh, oh, ye of little faith, right? Like, the idea that this was some chance that Warner Brothers were, was taking on some guy named Ryan Coogler and Michael, with Michael B. Jordan in it, it's a vampire body.

I just, you know, it's, now to be fair to somebody. right? Like, they probably, they saw the movie. They, there probably were some questions about whether it took too long for the vampires to show up. Do people want to really stick around and just watch black people be black people and regular black people in the, in the gym grow delta? Like, there are like things I can imagine a studio person having some concerns about given how out of practice everybody is telling stories about regular humans now. Yeah.

Yeah. And Google was like, nah, but it's going to work, though. Cool. He's like, he's like,

I'm four for four. Yeah, but it's going to work, though. Four for four. You do the calculations for that batting average because it's a thousand.

The overacting word, the Rufflohanna or Rubidavit of cartridge, I say this out of complete love, but it's probably Delroy Lindo who dials it up a couple times. But I loved all of it.

I supported it. I appreciate it. but if you're going to say if anyone dialed it up in the movie, it's probably him. Oh, him. He's, he is having the time of his life. I want him to dial it up.

He's supposed to dialed up and then Delta Slim is supposed to be at 10. Mrs. Chowell started getting on my fucking nerves too. Oh. Yeah. Well, she makes a bad choice. Her choice makes no emotional sense. It makes no practical sense.

We're going to get to some nitpicks, but she was giving it at some point. That's a good one. She's got on my nerves. Ben, you have a flex category. My place category in this situation is going to be the Den of Thieves Benihanna Award for Steenstein Scenes ceiling location. What you got?

Clarksville and the American South. Oh, yay. What a beautiful, textured, gorgeous, heavenly depiction of a place that I am so, so connected to. I told the story to you guys before of riding through Mississippi with Ryan Rissillo. Whoa, I didn't see that coming. Yeah.

We did something at, we did something at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, at, we did a, we did a, we did a, we did a, right. Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. So we had to find to Memphis, and then we have to drive to, uh, Oxford. And, you know, I've told this story before, but like, you know, we're, we're in Mississippi, and there are cotton fields. You, you, you see cotton fields there. It's still a cash crop. And you, you, you can tell.

in the car who's not used to seeing that because they're not saying anything. And I'm like, yeah, guys, look at the cotton out there. Just check it out. Look at the cotton. How's that make you feel? Right away subject change. But there's also this brutal beauty to the South.

Things are old. Things have existed for a long time. A general store is a beautiful thing to look at, particularly when you're down there in the south. So they really captured that in the movie. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford, hottest take a word if you have one. You don't necessarily have to.

Van probably has one. Wesley's not a hot take artist. Yeah, I don't really have a crazy, crazy hot take here. I don't, I don't know. I feel like, you know, I just think not liking the scene is about as... Yeah, you already did. Wow, does I get it? So preacher boy is there, you know, he's older,

and they say, hey, we want to make you a vampire. If I'm a preacher boy, I go, I want to be a vampire. I'll take a shot at Mary, though. I'm on my way out of here. You know, I've held it down. You know, you were asked to leave me alive. And, like, you know, maybe me and Mary one time with a vampire. Wait, but hold on.

We didn't even talk about a whole other sex seed that preacher boy has. He has it with Perlien. We have a spot for it. Yeah, he has it with Perlene. But I'm saying Perlene's gone. He's named the club after her. He's an older guy. I see.

You know, if you really fuck with me like that, that's sad. So age 88? Age 88. Like, can I just one time with Mary? Can I reenact how you died with a sexy thing? slash death fight. One time I, by the way, you can, by the way, since I'm about to be gone anyway, look, stat,

you can stay here, kill everybody in the bar. I don't even know this guy. This is insane. You take up pearly. I just, I just, I just hired these guys. I don't really even know who they are. Take out everybody in the bar. Just one time we're married, we out. I like it. Yeah.

Here's my hottest take. Uh-oh. Being a vampire, not that hard. I just feel like you just have to bite somebody on some part of their body and it's a W. But this is an interesting thing. It's like, oh, I'm trying to bite them. It's like, just bite any, you can bite anything. You bite their calf, bite their hip.

I just think if you have the giant fangs, if I try to jump on van right now, he could fight me up, but I can still bite him at some point. I'm going to land a bite in a 10 second stretch. Vampire movies make it seem like, oh, it's just, I just think you're going to be able to eventually bite somebody. I love a vampire movie where the vampires don't, like, they're just like, I'll just go around your arms. I will just bite you anyway. Because it doesn't, it could be anything.

It could be the side of your leg. It could be your butt cheek. They always make it seem like it's got to be this area in a vampire movie. Yeah. I guess that's probably where the most blood is. But not to turn you to a vampire. Yeah. If my goal is to turn you into a vampire,

it doesn't matter where I bite you. It just has to give you a bloodstream. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Just don't overcomplicate it. The new, like if we're doing like Sloan Conference, analytics for the best vampires. It's the van, it's the undecurning vampires.

They're just the ones who are like, I don't care what part I bite. Yeah, I don't need to feed me. I have a job is to create other vampires. I need a nice group of vampires. Then we can go, like, then we'll fucking feed. I'm with you. This is a great point. Casting what ifs.

Didn't really have any except for Halsey completed a script read for the Haley part. Didn't get it. Interesting. That's all I got. Yeah. 20 years from that would be like every single. single actor from there. It'd be like, Shalame was almost in this as

best that guy award, it's got to be cornbread. Omar Benson Miller. I didn't know what his name was until I looked it up doing the research for this movie. He's been around. He's been in. I just never knew what his name was. Some of your favorite movies? Yeah. Oh, no. He's, I just never knew.

He was a classic that guy. I mean, his list of his filmography is just like, oh, right. Oh, right. Oh, right. Yeah. Oh, right. Oh, right.

Yeah. Now, did you, have you heard the story about how he got in this movie really quickly? No. Ryan Coogler, he told it at the premiere. Ryan Coogler was... Name trap.

Ryan Coogler was either a film student or just graduated SC when he went to a screening of the miracle at St. Anna. The Spike Lee movie. Oh, yeah, yeah. That Omar Mr. Miller was in.

He went there and he told him, like, one day, I'm going to work with you and put you in a movie. Like, I'm going to be a filmmaker. We're going to work together one day. And years later, when Cougar was putting the movie together, he reached out to Omar Benson Miller

and he put him in the movie. Like, so. I love that. Omar told the story at the thing. He was like, we actually got a chance to work. He's like, this kid who came up to me ended up doing everything that he said he was going to do

in his career and then we ended up working together all of these years later. Craig and I have a different story. Craig just came out here to be an actor. Yeah, that's right. Did you? Kind of stumbled into it. I wasn't in a commercial, though.

What commercial were you in? It was a nationwide insurance Gruden Grindrinder Monday night football when he was doing that. Gruden grinder. He had a Gruden grinder segment. Oh, wow. The Gruden Grinder. Love the Gruden Griders.

Dionne Waiter's a word. It's either Delroy, Lindo, or buddy guy. I got to be honest with you. It to me is easily the Native American vampire hunters. The Chalkt House? They are in it for one scene. They try to warn everybody. Like, legitimately.

They come in, they cook, they look cool. They're very important. They tell this woman, look, it's a vampire in your house. And the guy said at the front, like, you know, I really want to help. Homeboy is like, hey. Yeah, we got to go. The sun is going down.

They did. Let's get the fuck out of here. You know, the chalk taas. I like the chalk taas. Yeah. I like it. I like that. Recasting Couch Director of City.

I'm going to explore the studio space on this one. It's one more character. I'm just going to create a new character. Get our girl, Philo Davis, and this. Ha! Aunt. Maybe she's the aunt of Smoking Stack. Oh, interesting.

She's got some special skill, like she knows how to make. We just get one extra scene with her. I just, I feel like we're one person short with the group. Okay. You want more star power? I just want one more. Is there a character that you? One more famous person, a little older.

Somewhere between the Delroy Lindo age and MBJ's age, early 50s, family member. Know some history with the twins and doesn't like Mary. But doesn't she kind of upstage a little bit of what Annie is doing? No, not a huge part. Maybe it's an uncle. I was just trying to figure out one more person we can throw into this. What if you put in somebody who is Delta Slim's estranged wife? Yeah, because he's the one.

But, you know, we already know he's probably got four X's as it. As it is, she's in there. And there's like, I don't want to see this drunk motherfucker. Fuck him. See, we're just five minutes short with somebody. I don't know who it is. I'm trying to think of a good actor.

You need somebody with a little comedy. A little older little comedy. Yeah, that is the thing. Jennifer Lewis. Jennifer Lewis. You put Jennifer Lewis in there. But it's too much. She is the,

she is the Brontosaurus steak that tips over the Flintstone's car. You don't want. You don't want. Jennifer Lewis is too much. I like you. Have fast internet research. I'll go quick. Our guy Ludwig, he drew inspiration from blues music,

but more importantly, performed the score. In 1932, Dobro Cyclops Resonator Guitar, which was the one Sammy has, the whole movie. Yeah, okay. Cluger said his two biggest influences for the film, two of his biggest influences, Dustal Dawn, the faculty with Rob Rodriguez, starring John Stewart, a movie that I think he tried to buy all the copies of

to destroy. but he is not because it's still on cable. Jackson. He's not. They cast a twin double named Percy Bell, who had the same kind of body as MBJ, and they also heard twin consultants.

Oh, twin consultants. Well, also consultants-wise, Rianning Giddens, the great Americana musician and I guess, I mean, we'll call her a scholar. Yeah. His, you know,

was the person Beyonce turned to to sort of figure out, how to think through what Cowboy Carter was doing. Huge blues presence. Chris Stone Kingfish Ingram is in the band at the end with Buddy Guy. He's one of the musicians you see in that slow motion

transition shot. Yeah, this play, the Irish culture consultant whose name has now escaped me. There's a lot of just, you know, let's make sure we know what we're doing here. This is why it takes couglar two plus years to make a movie. When Smokin' Stack return, they go to downtown Clarksdale, Mississippi,

but it was shot in Donaldsonville, Louisiana. Oh, man. Talk to us. Talk to us about Donaldsonville. We used to have our horses there. Donaldsonville, like we used to, before we had the barn, we used to board horses there. Donaldsonville is cool. Girls in Donaldsonville, Donaldsonville High used to be fine as hell.

I've been for real. The girls were downscuile high. I tried to the surprises. The nice track girls, Donsville, how it was fine as hell. They had to, they had to make it dirt roads,

and they had to bring in all this dirt to make, to actually make the dirt road over the pavement. So Remick mentions how Christians took his father's land. Oh, yeah. But he's Irish. And that actually puts his life

somewhere between the 5th and 7th centuries. So he's elbow to shit. Yeah. The film, there's a lot of like Robert Johnson stuff that I was not really, did not know a lot of about the guitar player blues guy who supposedly sold to the devil and then died young and whether... Cross rolls or Roth Machia? Yeah.

Oh, no. What are we? We were doing so well. All those shouts, shouts to Joe Seneca. Shouts to Joe Seneca. Wesley, you like this. The working title of this film was grilled cheese because Coogler was used to making complicated dishes.

He wanted this to be an enjoyable, easy eating experience. So he named the grilled cheese and all the script demo shit. The finest career he could find, too. Apex Mountain, hard to do when the movie just happened. But Ryan Coogler, I find it hard to believe he's going to have more power than he has right now. And if he does in a couple of years, God bless him.

But this is about as much juice as you're going to have for a director, I think. But think about... Like, who's not making his next movie? He could be like, I'm going to make a movie about Vans' left kneecap. And they're like, here's $100 million. Yeah.

But think about... I just think, like, how they were talking about this movie. I know. But now that this happened, it's... So you can... For 90 side-on scene for this, really? Yeah. He could literally go to...

right now and said, I need 250 million bucks. I don't know. We even tell you the idea. 250. I'm like, it's not, it's not, we're not doing superhero shit. We're not doing this.

I need $250 million. And we're going to go make a movie. And they were, they would say. It's a movie about the Donaldsonville High girls in 1992. Right. A cheerleading squad.

Wouldn't it be 92. I'm not, you know. 96. Nelsonville higher. Michael B. Jordan, Apex Mountain. Hmm. Hmm. I don't think so.

No, no. I think so for where his career is so far, yes. Yeah, already fine. He's just, I think it is. That's the face of a $500 million. Where does he go? What does he do? Does he have another level to it?

Does he have his version of the Revenant? I think we're at the, so, okay, you'll, you'll get this. You know how. Because I'll wait. No, because you love NBA basketball. Okay. But that's probably,

because you're white. But, like, I love watching them dunk, Dad. Um, they jump so high. They jumped so high, Dad.

You should have, you should have seen the chief. What he was able to do. Um, so you know how a player has all of these? They have all NBA. They have all-star seasons. Yeah. But then, like, 26, 27 is the official beginning of their prime.

Yeah. So I think this is the official beginning of Michael B. Jordan's prime. I said that earlier. I totally agree. I think these next five, six years will be, this is going to be it now. I'm not saying he hadn't been all-N-B-A. I'm not saying he hadn't been an all-star. I'm saying this is the official beginning of his prime.

It's like a little Hakeem in the early 90s for the Rockets, where it all starts coming together and he has that crazy stretch wins two titles. I don't disagree. I'm just like I feel this way about so many people. Timothy Salamee is Pac-Man right now. Any script is on a table anywhere, like,

his people are gobbling up and whatever gets excreted that is still intact is what gets picked up and done, right? Like, I just feel like, show me the scripts.

I keep... Yeah, but that changes all the time because, like, in the Goldman books, which are right over your red shoulder, but he always talks about, like, who has that? that alpha seat with the scripts. Yes.

But it flips. It does change. It does change. But I feel like there are so few people now who are viable both in the minds of the public and in the sort of books of the industry that I definitely think this is the moment for people to be giving Michael B. Jordan or offering Michael B. Jordan really interesting things to do. Well, he's also at the age now where he can play any adult role. Like he'd be in a sports movie right now.

He could be the cop who's been on the force for a while. He could be a detective. Like, you name it. He's not too old to be anything yet. Okay. I'm not here to disagree. How about vampire movies? Apex Mountain.

No. Apex Mountain. It can't be. No. I'd have to think about it. So what is it? What do you mean? What's the apex of vampire movies?

Oh, it's probably that period where... Dracula? I mean... No. Which Dracula? Stoker's Dracula? I think it's that period where, well, here's what I'll say. It's probably late 70s.

Here's what I'll say. I feel like this is a great moment in an American life or like maybe even considering where Europe is right now to really be thinking about what these vampires are offering in these movies. If you think about Robert Eggers Nosferatu and in the way that that Eggers is arguing for a vampirism that is hard to resist because it is just too sexy to say no to, right? The power of the vampire is too strong to not want to have sex with. And so you give yourself completely over it.

It's one of, that Nils Faratu is one of the most convincing sort of political, psychological arguments for vampirism I've ever seen. I think this- Well, it's here. We're watching it happen. And I think that this is... I'd like to be a conciliaria to the vampires. Just go for any body part.

Well, in this metaphor, stop going for the next. You don't want it. You don't want to be anywhere near these people. Okay. But I also think that Googler has also found a very appealing way. I think vampire...

This is definitely Apex Mountain moment... For vampire culture? As a metaphor. Yeah, okay. It's Apex Mountain, certainly for black vampires. How about twin brother movies? You don't think so? Have you seen Blackula?

I've seen Black you're gonna do better than that? Vampire and Brooklyn, but I would say it was between this and movies bad. Oh, Blade, okay. But this is not about, but okay, fine. This is fair. Not enough black vampires though, right? Eddie tried during his worst part of his career, my guy. Twin brother movies, maybe twin movies?

this is the most successful twin movie. Is this the highest grossing twin movie? Almost certainly. With twin leads, yeah, for sure. Haley Stainfield? Steinfeld? Can I say it? Haley Steinfeld?

Yes, for sure. So far, I think there might be another moment for pickle garlic juice, yes. Cunnelangus advice? Oh. Cunnelingus advice. Can't remember a better conalangus advice scene in the movie?

No, we're not doing better than that. this one. Just look for that button. Well, I'm going to say never, because I'm sure there's one I'm missing. But I can't think of it. The blues, I'm going to go, no. Haints.

But the blue, well, let me think about this. The blues are movies for sure. Right? Like, the blues as... Van would say Moe Better Blues. But that's a jazz movie. This is like...

Bame wouldn't say Moe Better Blues. Oh. I think this might be... Let's think about the blues. Let's think about this. This is definitely, at least in the movies. This is the, this is the, this is the, this is the, this is the blues. This is a great blues movie.

How about drooling? Best drool scene ever. But there are several good drool scenes in there. This is a good drooling movie. Yeah. Movie characters named Cornbread. Probably yes. I don't think Cornbread are all in me has really had a long shelf life.

No. All right. Cruiser, Hanks. So what we're talking about for Remick? It can be for any role you want. Oh, wow. But obviously, it can't be for certain roles. Cruz was about to say, it can't be for any role.

Cruz would kind of fucking kill it as Remick. Yeah. So he's played it. Fucking Remick. He's played Remick. That's why we know. This is the better remik, though. Mid-Nand-his-Rex-Rew.

Fucking crazy. This would have been like the best part of his career. Now, he did fuck up. to me as LaSat. I did not like that at all because that was bad. That's not what I'm talking about. No. He would love another crack at that part.

I'm sure. He would be basically cocktail cruise as a vampire. As a vampire, he would kill as a rome. He would get behind the bar and start flipping bottles. That dance scene would be so fucking bizarre and crazy. He would learn how to do the Irish, Irish state, whatever dance.

He would do the tropic thunder dance if he did that. Yeah. Kill as running. But I think, though, this is raising a sort of alternate series of questions about what Tom Cruise's life looks like after this year. Right? Like, what are his choices?

What's he doing? If Kugler is offering, let's say this movie gets made a year from now instead of two years ago or year. He's only the KKK guy. Yeah. He's the old guy that sells on the house. Him and Mike would be smart to get the movie together.

I mean, this is what I'm saying. Danzell or Will pick any age range In their primes This is not fair to Michael B. Jordan Why are we doing this? It's a movie Jordan. It's a movie podcast of hypotheticals.

Play the game. Oh, it's a no brainer. You're just taking, you're taking like... So two dinsales as two dinsales are two wills. I think you're going early 90s Denzel or like 93, 94 range. Yes. Devil in a blue dress era. I think he would have fucking crushed it.

Devil in a blue dress era, Denzel is a no-brainer. You don't think a little younger? I would have gone early 90s. Devil in a blue dress is 95. I would have gone 92-93 range. Like Malcolm X era? Like right after. No better blues Malcolm X.

Denzel? I'm sure. Let's do it. A smoking stack. Scorsese or Spielberg? I can see Spielberg has never done any kind of horror We get some 1930s cocaine with Scorsese One of the one of the

One of the vampires The fangs coming out Wow, that just gave real big Pacino That was my favorite Wow Never done cocaine What role would Philip see? Seymour Hoffman have played.

Oh, he'd be a good remick. He would be a great remick. He also could have been the Klan guy, but maybe he's a little too young for that. Not enough part there for that. But he could have been a great remick too. Special category. I didn't even put this on the rundown. How would Van Lathen get out of this one?

I don't which one. Well, in this case, the situation is you're now a vampire and you're trying to convince your brother not to drive a wooden steak through your heart. How do you get out of this one? Okay, wait. So I'm the vampire.

This is a great parlor game. I'm trying to... Your stack. My brother not to kill me. And like, here's my plan. Let's go. Right.

Okay. First of all, I'll say to smoke. I go smoke. First of all, you already killed our father. Right? You killed our father.

You're going to kill me too? What are you? A person that kills your own family? Right. How many family members Can you kill? How many people can you kill? Smoke?

Violent man? I saw you early. Shoot two black men in the street. Don't we have enough going on in this city? You know who shoots black men and kills black families? White people. You want of them now? You want of them now?

Smokes. Matter of fact, need to come over here with me, bro. There's a new dance. It's taken over Clarksville. It's called the jig. We ain't ever done it before, but you jump high. You flip your legs up around. When you come down, your credit score, and go way up.

You tell you something. Brud, you don't want to do. is you want to come on this side, bro. Seriously, don't kill me. All right. You live. You live. You live. Pickin' it's. That's great. Why did

Smokensack leave Chicago? They robbed somebody. They robbed the Italians and the They robbed Al Capone and they robbed So they robbed them and they leave Because they stole the Irish beer and the Italian Yeah, they stole it. Okay.

But now they're like the deep south is this burgeoning business opportunity? Yeah. I don't really understand their business plan. Well, it seemed like in Chicago, I'm better off just robbing people in Chicago. There's way more money there. I think there's such a history of black person.

Like they have to get away. And they realize almost immediately nobody has enough money to make this functioning enterprise. But then there's a community argument to be made for like keeping it open anyway. I don't know. It's a very moving kind of like naive, like desperation. slash naivete that's happening here, right? Don't get sentimental.

This is picking nits. A belief in your people, sorry. Your knit has been picked. Well, in the movie, they say that they decide to go with the devil that they knew, which is very interesting because there happens to be a devil. An actual devil. That they have no idea about. But yeah, so that's the deal with the reason why they came in.

So first time we see Remick, he's diving into that, toward that person's house. Right? and gets in and he's like covered in whatever. The sun's out. So why didn't he just die? I thought they died the moment the sun was out. Well, it's like sun down. He was like about to.

It's dusk. Or it's dusk. Yeah. Okay. It's not high his son. The sun is not. By the way, are there rules with how high the sun has to be?

His skin is boiling. This, yeah, his skin is boiling. This varies from vampire movie to vampire movie. We've never, We've never established a code here. Where the sun comes out and a vampire immediately disintegrates. There are certain vampire movies where the sun comes out, like in Blade,

it's like, oh, I'm like getting it right out of here, please. So I guess this was more of a slow burn. Slow burn, okay. You know what this movie does that I struggled with? But, Van, you know vampires, you probably didn't think about it. But I don't know how much you do or you do. But like the whole, you have to let a vampire, you have to invite a vampire in. They don't really hold your hand through that.

Like, they just expect you. to know it. But they, but it's such a plot point here. Eventually, like it gets banged into your brain. I kind of love, I love,

I had, I'm not familiar with, with that. Like, I didn't really know that. That was a rule. Yeah. But I kind of love

how important it is in the world of the movie because it is also serving the metaphor, the sort of racial metaphor. Sure. Right. Um,

and the movie really commits to the invitation question. And watching it the second time you pick up on how early on they start to ask if they can be invited in it. Because originally you don't really think about that. The second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the invitation is crucial. So maybe we had consent back in the 1930s in a way we didn't realize.

It's true. I still like, if you guys are looking for an all-time vampire let me in scene, that's funny, the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer where David Arquette is outside Luke Perry's window. Yeah. And he's flying. He's he's floating and Luke Perry has just like

woken up and he's going to open the window for his friend and he realizes that his friend is flying and he's like, let me in, let me in. He goes, no, like you're in the air. I'm not going to let you get out of it. It's legitimately hysterical. It's a very funny thing. And otherwise, I'm fucking about to diss the movie.

I love that fucking movie. Quick nipicks. I love that movie. Fuck, oh, what I was going to fuck what I said. They built the juke joint in three hours. Just got that thing right up. But they're not building it, building it. Like, they're just pretty complicated bar.

I'm just asking. Yeah. They had a lot of help. A lot of stuff happened that day leading up to the night of the juke. I still love it. I don't care. Just here to pick some nets. With the three vampires that really turned into an awesome banjo band in two minutes.

Another hilarious. another hilarious development, though. No. No rehearsal. But they have all of remix memories. Right. Oh, okay. Yeah.

All right. Yeah. And then we talked about this earlier. How did Annie know so much about vampires and how did the vampires not immediately win the 50 versus a fight? What did you have for NIPX? So, okay, number one, let's say we all in here right now.

The vampires are outside. Craig is like, yo, man, Liz is out there. Craig, go find it, bro. Peace. The fuck out. Like, he's like, go. Go find your wife. Right.

I'm not about to be like, Craig, you can't go. Craig, you got to stay here. Man, Craig, you feel like you got to go find your girl. I feel you. Good luck. Good luck, Craig. We and this bitch till son up. Yeah.

Go find it. And that's what I would have told Ms. Child. I've been like, hey, you know, hey, you know what? You're right. That's unfortunate. I don't know what they're going to. to do with the kids and stuff, take your ass out there to bow. Go find them.

They also didn't seem interested in anybody else other than the people in the club. Your daughter's probably fine. They are in my, the moment I saw a vampire, my whole life would be changed in such a fundamental profound way. Like it would be so different. Like, yeah, you want to go, you're right, man. Ain't you a soldier? Hey, he is.

And he's going to stay in here and protect us. Get the fuck out. I would have kicked her out. I would have. I was thinking like, yeah, you can't kick her out. But I understand the urge to because she instantly becomes a very annoying person. The clan. Uh-oh.

Why would you come to the Jew joint in the morning to kill everybody? Wouldn't it be a better out there? Yeah, why not come at 4.30 a night. Yeah. When they're actually partying. And they're drunk. Yeah, everybody's in there drunk. You're going to come in the morning.

First of all, you don't hear any music. Like, you don't hear anything. going on. The door isn't open. The clan actually thought that the people were inside there, where he thought they all were sleeping. Have you met the clan? That's true. These people

are not winning any McArthur Genius Awards. They're not winning Peabody Posers. They're not, they don't even get 200 points for putting their name at the top of the SAT. It's true. Like, I don't know. These are not, these, they don't even have a draw.

Not a lot of oxygen with the hoods. I think it does hurt them. Probably so. We can't see in these goddamn things. All y'all do is criticize, criticize, criticize. Now, last thing, man, I'm for indigenous black unity. But, boy, did our native brothers leave us out there

to get our asses kicked by the vampires, man. They said they were leaving and not coming back. I know, I know, but. Mad respect. I know, but we are there, and we are getting hell. these vampires and our native brothers, they left us out, they hung us out to drive, man.

Did they hang us out? Kind of, first of all, if I was them, so they're hunting the vampires, right? Yeah. Why not go throughout the town and let people know? But who knows? Their vampires are foot. Where their other stops were.

We don't, I mean, because this is, the sun is setting, right? Yeah. Or send an email. Something. Well, there's an all. version of this movie where the where the chock tiles show up at the end

right as shit's going down and all of a sudden they have like additional I thought about that. Additional bodies. That wouldn't make me I don't know. It would have been more conventional. One last question. Yeah. Do vampires have to ask to get

inside of your car? Great question. Because if you have to invite a vampire in and everybody's like scattered outside, why just go jump in the cars? jumping a good like just

just jump it's a good rule of thumb for people listening right when the vampires come to get us everybody just get in it get in a closed body of something getting the clothes whatever now Colin Farrell on the fight night

he changed the game because he wouldn't be let inside of the thing and he went and ripped up the gas lines of the kids oh yeah yeah yeah and did like this and put the the match

yeah to the things like I'm going to I'm a burn the fucking house. You love vampires, man. I love vampires. Colin Farrell. Are you a vampire guy or a werewolf guy? Depends on my mood.

I should have done. I'd like to ask that question. Can I pick one knit? Yeah. And then Liz has a knit. Yeah, okay. Okay. When Mrs. Chow makes the Molotov cocktail, lights it on fire, throws it at Renek.

He slaps it away and it hits the barn door and lights the barn door on fire. How? Nothing happens from that. The place does not burn down. There is no fire. The whole place would have burned down. The whole barn door is on fire. He hits it into the-

He can't burn the barn down twice, right? Like he's already given you the metaphorical barn burning. Yeah. Well, then I don't know why they include that. It's a red herring burn. It's the rush. The whole door is on fire for a scene.

He hits and it ignites. And then they never get back to it. You never see the fire again. It's like a continuity here. Yeah. Second one from Liz. She thought smoke and stack were too ripped didn't make sense.

They weren't ripped. They were just thick. I did notice that. He's huge. Michael B. Jordan is extremely fit. Like, Creed fit. But you're bringing your old, you're bringing your memory of the old Michael B. Jordan

body to this body. I think there's just a thick guy. Oh, come on. Like, I think, like, no, this is a 2020. With the machine gun, he is like rambo-jacked. No, you have, like, George Forman Ken Norton-type bodies in the 1930s. You're going to have, like, ripped-tone.

I think that. I actually, I truly believe that that is the body he was trying to get to. And I don't know, he's not as, also, we never see him with his shirt off, right? Like, we see the tank top, that's it. Yeah, that's about as far as it goes. I feel like somebody was aware of, like, this concern. And he was probably asked to eat as many croissants as he possibly could to, like, to, like, to detone himself.

Like, they would have to be working out a lot to be, to, and they both look the same. Yeah. I don't know, maybe there was a gym in Chicago. They were in the military. And they were in the military. 20 years ago. Yeah. Sequel, prequel, prestige, TV,

all black cast are untouchable. Interesting. It's actually a tougher category than you would think. Can I test drive the prequel? Them in Chicago, stealing from Al Capone, like, I'm in. I will watch it. It's not a vampire movie.

It's just like a 19, late 1920s action, Great Depression in Chicago movie. I'm interested. interested in that. Yeah. That's like a little godfather, too, to me. Think about it. What about it?

Think about it, Ryan Coogler. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Treau, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, No, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collins, or Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley. Ooh, Daniel Plainview. Did Sam need to be in this movie? Do you think he was upset? He was at asked?

Bill, don't do it. What? He's in the category. I don't. I feel like. Seems like I'm right here. He's done. Sam has Delta Slim?

I'm going with a new answer for this. That's not in the rundown. Interesting. The good doctor. Oh, shit. You love this show now. Oh, interesting. You like that show.

I like it. I like you. The good doctor is one of the people in the... Oh, my God. Wow. In the Chukes. And they're trying to figure out what's going on. And they're like, the vampires are trying to kill us.

We cannot let them in. Because they're not. they are vampires. If you open that door, they were, and it's just like, he's almost like Spock for the crew. And everybody's like, this guy's so fucking annoying, send him out. Throw him out. Let's get rid of him now. Oh my God.

Yeah. Craig wasn't expected. Sam made this movie. Sam Jackson made this movie. It's called Black Snake Mode. Oh, yeah. I did not like that movie. Many people didn't. It is not, it is entirely worth. I try. I've tried a bunch of times. I appreciate the. There is a crazy

blues movie for you. just one Oscar who gets it oh it's Ryan Coogler I think one Oscar is probably I have I have Mike

but probably the direction is probably it's probably couglin it's coogler for directing I think it's coogler for directing I think if you did this what's the safest bet Oscar from this movie is the score is winning

the score's going to win like that's I didn't know what the other scores I would vote for original screenplay. Oh, okay. I would vote for original screen. How about that new category? Because it hasn't happened yet. What is the over-under for Oscars for this movie?

Not even knowing what's coming out. Winning or being nominated? Winning. Well, let's go winning and nominations. Okay. So I'm going to. Fandle. Does Fandle set this at three and a half?

So picture is almost a shooting. Because that's a 10 nomination category, right? Oh, did they shrink? Oh, for nominate. Yeah, it's definitely a best picture. Picture 100%. Picture. You can't get to 10 movies right now. Right.

Picture, cougler, score. MBJ. Can I sell you? Can I sell you on Annie's character as a best supporting actress now? Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah, I can see that.

To me, it's like, can she and Haley both get in? Only five spots. I think Woonie is much, yeah. Like much likely. I think she would be the favorite in that one. And then I wouldn't be mad if Delroy's getting nominated. Oh, he's getting nominated. Like, lock that in.

He's honestly. But we've been saying this, can I just say, we have been saying lock that in for Delroy Lindo for 20. Jack O'Connell. For 30 years. Jack O'Connell as well. I think he's never been nominated. I think Delroy is the most likely to win.

Whoa. Okay. Listen, there's 20 total acting nomination spots in this movie might end up with five of them. I think Delroy is most likely with. Interesting. This is all fascinating. I would that on Delroy right now if Fando had the odds.

Eddington and then the PTA movie are going to be like fucking mammoths. Because Eddington is phenomenal. But this is interesting. This is a completely different conversation about Eddington. I think Eddington is great. You didn't like anything? I mean, I have mixed feelings about it, but I feel like there are a lot of people

who really don't like it. I don't know. I can't tell how many, how leg is going to be. It's an exceptionally polarized a movie. I haven't seen it yet. Come the end of the year. Probably in answerable questions.

We did everything. The only one I have left is, did Josh Allen enjoy this movie? Oh, great question. What an unbelievable press conference moment that would be before like the first week one. Hey, what do you think about the Pat's defense, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, Josh, Bill Simmons here from ESPN.com.

What was your least favorite scene from sinners? How much did you hate sinners on a scale 1 to 10? That's funny. I have one unanswerable question. Yeah. Do Stack and Mary in 1992 still listen to Irish music? Oh, great question. Well, the great thing about that question.

Remick's dead. Do they ever just put on, because that was around the time that Lorded the dance was started. Do they watch? I think they've moved on. I mean, they're dressed. I mean, think about how they're dressed. The end of that movie is really kind of deep, right?

Yeah. Because if we're thinking about this as a music movie, and he has all these feelings about the blues, they are dressed like Keith Sweat and like some Mary J. Blasch prototype, some like Salt and Pepper, basically. Yeah. And. Shout out to Keith.

Keith. They, they're clearly, I don't know. I mean, there's something about the vampires being aligned with hip hop at this point. It's funny. Yeah. And they're going out into the night to do who knows what. Um, like what if, if they're musically driven, what are they musically driven to do? Yeah. Um, and what are they musically already doing? I don't know. There's a lot of like, Because, I mean, they would have had to have figured out these clothes. They would have had to have survived the 70s and the 60s. This should have been a good unanswerable question. What did they do for 60 years?

How many people did they bite? They've had to bite a lot of food. Did they have favorite restaurants? I mean, here's a, here's a sequel or like a freak. Smoke was a big Bulls fan in the late 80s, early 90s, really got into MJ, started going to games, got season, bit the guy who had awesome season tickets. Who can say? I mean, I don't know, there's a whole world of, there's like, what, five decades, six decades.

A lot of shit going on. Quickly, let's rip through because we're late on time. I have to go to the airport. What piece of memorabilia is you want or not want from this movie? It's got to be the good sit. The harmonica. Yeah. What about the broken guitar?

We'll love that too. Coach Finstock, we're a best life lesson. You keep dancing with the devil one day he's going to follow you home. I have a different one. What do you got? White women can come in the party, but not white men. Amen. But listen,

a black woman did come in. Yeah, no I'm saying. I mean, we might, we might let, we're not one of the 53% of white women. They know who they are. But we might let them in a party, but white men, y'all bring too much shit with y'all. Best double feature choice, what do you got? Oh, great question.

For me, it was from Dustal Dawn. Easy. I was going to pick a tear and, Tino, my impulse is to pick a Tarantino movie. Interestingly. I had the thing. Oh, that's a good one. But I think the answer is Fruitvale.

Oh, say more. First. Go in the beginning. Then you follow the journey all the way, this fully fully realized 12 plus years later, here are these guys again in a completely different, amazing movie. I like that idea.

Yeah. I like that idea. All right, toughest one who won the movie. Maybe not that tough. It's not tough. Ryan Coogler. Ryan, why? Ryan Cooleur one. I mean, Mike is right, dude. Really, really is Mike Aron. I mean, just think about the way we have been talking.

The afterlife of this movie, which really is still its actual life because it's, it's been, it's only been like three or four months. Like, these are Ryan Coochler's ideas. These are ideas that are older than Ryan Cougler that he is like reframed in a way to make us think about them in a different way. And these are ideas. that are exciting to think about as ideas, right? Like, what does this movie mean? What is it saying? What is it doing?

Cougar's answer. There's a Miles Caten in 20 years. But 20 years from now, we might be saying it was Miles Caten if it becomes this massive A plus list star. And this was the launch you pad for him. You know, actually, when that movie? I don't see it happening, but we could, let's see. Craig, what are your thoughts quick? Saw in the IMAX at the Grove with a friend, loved it.

incredible theatrical experience. I think Van comparing Coogler to Spielberg is correct. And I've thought about that because Cougler really knows how to be theatrical. He knows how to sell it. Like I think this movie is so good because you can kind of just watch it on the surface and have a great time and think it's a 10 out of 10.

Or you could really get into it and all the layers of it and think it's a 10 out of 10 for a completely different reason. And like him drawing this whole movie up and knowing how to market it, the shot of Michael B. Jordan with the gun, like building the trailer correctly to get people into the theater. He has that Spielberg, like, magic sauce to him where he knows how to combine

a great movie and also make it feel like a popcorn movie. So it's great. I just had a whole conversation about, like, all of Steven Spielberg's children in this conversation I had with my friend Eric about the 100 greatest movies of the 21st century or whatever

on cannonball. See, I can do it, Bill. But we were talking about the ways in which Spielberg is, I mean, remains the most important father of these tributaries of filmmakers. Like his coaching tree. Who are very different from Spielberg,

but like really understand Spielberg's sort of entertainment philosophy. And hold on to some of his ideas while also just being themselves at the same time. This movie's also just like so shockingly original. Like even I watched it with Liz and hurt my brother in a lot of the night. Liz hadn't seen it yet. 20 minutes in. She was like,

this isn't based off anything, right? I was like, no. I think how sad that is. It's just so... Honestly, and that's what we did our video about last month. It's just like original IP, man. It's still wins. Even if you don't like the big musical scene or whatever, I just like that the movie feels like

it's one person's hands all over it. Somebody had an idea. You know what I mean? Yeah, somebody had an idea. Sinners, an all-timer. HBO Max is now the platform that it's on, I guess. But you can watch it. But I would recommend. if you haven't seen the theater,

go to the theater. Wesley Morris, a true pleasure. Bain Lathen, great as always. Thanks to Craig and Chris as well. And one name movie month. We'll continue next week.