The Rewatchables - ‘Spider-Man’ (2002) With Van Lathan and Charles Holmes

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

With great podcast power comes great responsibility. The Ringer’s Van Lathan and Charles Holmes take over 'The Rewatchables' to celebrate the 20th anniversary of ‘Spider-Man,’ starring Tobey McGuire, Willem Dafoe, and Kirsten Dunst. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know, journalists, insiders, all of whom can break down the hottest topics in entertainment to tell you what's really going on. Listen now. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly. The all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller.

And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. I sold my car on Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny.

They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood? I think it's laminated.

Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana. Pick up. With great power comes great. responsibility. Spider-Man, the movie, is next on the rewatchables. Not everyone is meant to make a difference, but for me, the choice to live in ordinary life is no longer an option.

Give my life twice, and I've never even seen his face. Amazing. Okay, Charles, the great power is in our hands now, all right? me Van Lathen from the Ringerverse and Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay Charles Holmes The Ringer Music Show and The Ringerverse Midnight Boys

A PooPoooooooo! This is a big deal for us. We're in... I don't know why it feels like we've been called up to the majors right here. We've got the great power to do this movie on the rewatching. This is the Spider-Man No Way Home.

They got us from our different dimension. I only have a few words for you to show you my excitement that we've been called up for the big leagues. Can I tell you what it is? Go for it. Go ahead. Deliver us from evil. You like that.

You enjoy that. So, obviously, if you guys are fans of the Ring ofverse, you know that on the Ring of Verse feed, which also has, you know, Mallory Rubin, Joanna Robinson, Joe Me a dinner on,

and Craig Alderman want to shout out our guys. We talk about all things did you say Craig Alman? I say I'm getting my my my producers mixed up I'm sorry about that Steve Armand Steve Steve Steve um yeah so we cover all things fandom and this movie is just a giantic happening a massive massive historical marker in the history of fandom culture in the history of uh of superhero movies comes out in 2002 Charles, tell me about your experiences with this movie. Because you must have been pretty young when it first came out in theaters, right?

So if this came out, this came out 20 years ago. So that means I was nine years old. And this movie scared the shit out of me. Like I saw this twice. I saw first with my uncle and then second at a birthday party. And I was like, like, now knowing Sam Ramey's qualities as a director, my parents should have known that this was going to be a pretty raw movie. but I remember being like

A excited and then B just like what is happening and I think this is probably the marker of a movie that would change my life. I was a comic book fan before this but this was kind of the moment where shit got real.

Like after this movie it's the reason we're doing the Midnight Boys is the reason Hollywood is nothing but comic book movies now. This is like patient zero during the pandemic. You feel me? Yeah.

So obviously I I had a little bit of a different experience with the movie. How old were you? 22. Yeah, oh, he's old. Old man, man. Yeah, I was 22 when the movie came out. I was in college, just getting ready to leave college.

And it was just a gigantic deal. It was a gigantic deal for me for a couple of reasons. Number one, there have been rumors of this movie for ages. I remember in middle school hearing that there was going to be a Spider-Man movie coming. And when you read comic books at that time, if you went to the back of the comic books, they were talking about this Spider-Man movie that was going to be made, this big screened Spider-Man adaptation that was coming out. And the difference is we didn't have up to the minute sort of updates on things like we do now. So it was harder for you to fall into the, this is coming out,

then and this is going to be the director and this is going to be the producers and these are going to be the actors. You almost got things in rumor and legend. So by the time, the announcement for the movie was actually made, and you had a cast, and you had a director,

and you had all of that, it just was one of those things, almost the last gasp of monoculture, which we don't have anymore, because the movie was just everywhere. It had a number one song that accompanied it. It had the big huge New York set pieces. It set records.

And came in an interesting time in the world. Like, fandom was at an all-time high. We were in the middle of the Matrix trilogy at that point. You know, Blade had come out some years before, so people were sort of getting indoctrinated into Marvel-based content. And also, it was post-9-11. And being that the movie was post-9-11, it was almost this way to exhale for me

because, you know, there was talk about, you know, they had Spidey, there's deleted scenes of Spidey doing webbing and stuff on the Twin Towers and there was this big thing. They had to take it out because everyone, it was still so raw and so fresh, that like there were a couple pieces of art that came out post-9-11 that were actually, to me, responsible for us remembering how to have a good time. There's certain albums, there's certain movies, there's certain television shows that just

reminded us or reminded me that, okay, things are okay after this seismic and monumental shift and you can go back for me. Spider-Man was one of those. So also, I want to ask you, since you were 22 at the time, this to me is the first movie where I was young. So seeing this was normal, seeing this level of CGI, seeing this kind of new world to me, was that's all I knew. I didn't have this big movie education.

But if you look at kind of the superhero movies that had come before this, and even kind of recently, like 1989, you have Batman, in 2000 you have X-Men. Like, the X-Men movie did not look like X-Men comics. They famously had to have these leather suits. They had to kind of downplay the comic book nature of it to sell it to an audience. And this is what a lot of superhero cinema had to do

the little bit that they would release every couple years. Whereas, like, Spider-Man was like the special, moment because you believe that, oh, okay, that's a spider, that's a superhero with spider power swinging through New York and it looks real. It doesn't look hokey. Like, it actually looks like a Steve Dicko Stanley comic book. And were you kind of like amazed that they pulled that off the first time you get into the theater that like, oh, in the same way you're like, oh, they prove that Superman can fly with Christopher Reeve. Oh my gosh. They prove that like Peter Parker can swing through New York.

That is, I actually had that written down. Superman was the movie that proved that a man could fly. This was the movie that proved that a man could swing. And it was, it was controversial. So I actually forgot X-Men when I was talking about the moment of fandom that we're in. And, you know, just a complete lapse by my, by me. But we're getting used to watching people do amazing things on screen. And also, this is right in the middle of Star Wars, the old Star Wars trilogy or the

Star Wars prequel trilogy, right? Yeah, Batman is a clones. comes out the same gear as this. The same year. So these are big movies based on big lore, based on big stuff, and it's all hitting at the same time. And it's soothing in a way.

For Spider-Man, I remember the moment that I read in a magazine, an actual magazine. I don't know if the kids remember what those are, actual magazine, that the Spider-Man character would be all-CGI. That the character itself, like, that you'd have him in the suit sometimes.

But when Spider-Man was flipping around, that that character would be CGI'd, it chills down my bones because at that particular point, I, as a moviegoer, wasn't used to CGI having such a big part of a film that I was watching. You'd see CGI if, you know, Jack and Rose had to be on the front of the Titanic, and you'd be like, oh, there's a scene where you could tell it's not real. CGI wasn't where it is now where it seamlessly blends into a show most of the time or a movie most of the time, and then you can't.

really tell the difference. At that point, it was still a big deal to have that much of Spider-Man B-CGI now. I still think that going back and watching it, they were able to actually combine the traditional aspect of effects and the CGI in a very revolutionary way, right? Because it's almost still seamless. Like some of the shots. It's very seamless. Yeah. Yeah, him flipping in and then right away them being back down and their stunt work between Defoe's Green Goblin and Toby McGuire Spider-Man, and those fights are very intimate hand-to-hand, and then when he's flipping around and doing his thing,

it's back to C.GI. And I remember watching the movie, and from the first time Spider-Man comes on the screen, you know they nailed it. They absolutely nailed it. And that is what led to it becoming what it was. Oh, and before we get too, like, into the plot of it, I also want to, like, zoom out because I remember this from being nine.

This is when I start, like, reading comic books. What people don't realize is superheroes at this point were not popping. In 1996, Marvel went bankrupt. Like, there's this feeling in the industry of, like, this might be it for comic books. And then around that time, were you a fan of, like, Marvel Knights? Yes, of course. That was, like, 1998. So that was when they take, like, Daredevil and Punisher and Humans, all of these characters.

And they're like, all right, if this is, like, the last hurrah, we're going to start doing this dark, like very prestige-type storytelling. And then in 2001, you get the ultimate line, which hit me as a kid, where they're essentially like, okay, Brian Michael Bendis, who writes Ultimate Spider-Man, he says, when I got hired, I literally thought I was going to be writing one of the last, if not the last Marvel comics, because they still don't know if there is an industry of people who will care, because we're years removed from death of Superman, when people are, like, collecting comic books and think that they're going to be making millions. and in 2001,

Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men are like, we're going to do something radical. We are going to start over with these heroes. We are going to, it's going to be no continuity. It's going to be all fresh. Peter Parker is going to be a teenager again. It's going to be in its own universe. And it's going to start from one.

And if you are a kid, if you are somebody who wants to read Spider-Man, you could start at this issue and it's going to be set in modern times. And right now, you're just like, why are you explaining this to me? That sounds normal. But back then, people were kind of like, What do you mean you're going to start over Spider-Man's history? At that point, Spider-Man had been married to Mary Jane in the comic books. I think he was a teacher.

And Ultimate Spider-Man, a year before this picture comes out, kind of reinvigorates the character for kids like me. I remember having, like, Ultimate Spider-Man birthday parties, where I'm just like, oh, shit, like, this is my Spider-Man. So I also think you can't really talk about this movie without talking about an entire generation of kids, not learning of Spider-Man from like Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and Steve Dicko

learning Brian Michael Bendis Ultimate Spider-Man comics. Were you reading Ultimate Spider-Man? No, that had nothing to do. That whole little diatribe had nothing to do with Spider-Man the movie, Charles. It did. It did.

It did. No, you love the Ultimates and you just wanted to show it with everyone. I don't know. Well, I mean, I do love the Ultimates, but I do think being nine years old, I do remember that seemingly overnight

Spider-Man went from this kind of like old-looking character to this very cool-looking character that like every... You really thought about that, huh? Every boy's birthday party had like this new, like, skinny-looking modern Spider-Man and then literally the next year later,

we're just like, all right, we had the ultimate Spider-Man party. Now we're going to the movie. What kind of kids are y'all? So y'all, so wait a minute. One, like, hold on real quick. Before we get to the box office of the movie, before we, so you mean, tell me that you guys at eight, at eight, this is how I know you're doing what God meant for you to do.

Because, like, you are a critic at heart. You're eight years old. You're eight years old, and you see Spider-Man, right? Oh, that's the Spider-Man, I know. Look at him. He looks this way. And then at nine, the next year, because fucking Brian Michael Bendis changed it, the next year, you're like, that's not the Spider-Man, I know. You're nine years old.

I didn't say that. No, no, no, no. I was saying, I was like at eight, I was like, Spider-Man looks cool as fuck now. He doesn't look like geriatric and old. Like he looks closer to my age. And then the next year, I'm just like, oh, Spider-Man's on screen now. It actually made me fall in love with the character in a way, like, my dad tried to give me old Stan Lee, Spider-Man comics.

And I was just like, what is this? Why are there so many words on the page? Ugh. So the movie comes out, 2002, and is instantly, instantly a success. $100 million in its opening weekend, the first film to ever do that. That is an amazing accomplishment.

Now, we talk about these films now, as if right now, if Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness comes out next month, and it only makes $100 million in its first opening weekend, that's going to be thought of as a huge, huge bomb.

But this was the first time that that had ever happened, shoots right up to the top. It is, the movie is, it's well reviewed, except by our boy Roger Ebert. Our boy, Roger Ebert, gives it two and a half stars. My hero, my idol, Roger Ebert, didn't like this movie. Imagine Superman with the Clark Kent more charismatic than the man of steel, and you'll understand how Spider-Man goes wrong. So look, going back and having watched the movie now,

the movie comes out, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, like we said before. Going back and having watched the movie now on a re-watch, looking at it, knowing that the movie was only reviewed tepidly, just a tepid review from Roger Ebert, did you poke any holes in the film?

Did you see any things in the film now that would make you think, hey, this is, it didn't age quite as well as I remember it. I had the opposite reaction when I went back and watched it. I love you, Roger, but what the hell, bro? I love the movie more. It's like, it's weird going back and watching this knowing what Hollywood would become

because like Spider-Man is like an actual movie with like a beginning, a middle, and an end where they're doing so much. in this film and a lot of what Sam Ramey is doing is kind of setting the blueprint for the modern superhero movie, how you tell a story, how you, like, we don't realize like, I was watching. It's seamless how you introduce Peter. They introduce everything that he can do, all of the stakes of the movie within like the first 40 minutes.

And immediately you're like, I understand who Peter is. I understand why Uncle Ben is so important to him. I know why he got his powers. know what he can do, and I know what the loss of Uncle Ben meets to him. And then it just goes from there. And it's funny, like a couple of buds back, I tried watching the Tom Holland movies. And I love Tom Holland is Spider-Man. But my girlfriend, who's never watched at any MCU movies, I was like, let me just see if she can like watch the first Tom Holland Spider-Man movie and get it. And the whole time she's just like, wait, who is that? Why is there alien stuff here? What's happening?

And I was just like, oh, like, this is the difference. The Tom Holland movies could go off and do whatever they want because we already know the blueprint of Spider-Man. Whereas Sam Rame here, he's like, no, I'm going to teach you how to make a superhero movie for the next 20 years. I absolutely loved it on rewatch. So after massive rumors about who was going to be Peter Parker, this movie becomes the first in the first massive hit for Toby McGuire. It's the movie that makes Toby McGuire the start that he would be throughout that decade.

Now, Toby McGuire had been one of these guys that was. he was gnawing at it. He was gnawing at it. He was gnawing at it. We had seen him. 1998, he has Pleasantville, 1999. He has the Cider House Rules. These are big movies. These are big movies.

Wonder Boys, a movie that people do not remember now. It was a great film from 2000. And then, of course, 2002, he has Spider-Man. So this is an example. Toby McGuire and Spider-Man is an example of an actor cashing in on their big-chance moment. Every actor has their big chance moment, right? They have their, okay, we've seen enough of them. We've seen enough of them.

We've seen enough of her. Now, here's their shot to be in the big Hollywood tip hole movie. If you nail it, you're minted. If you miss your Taylor Kish. You know what I mean? So they gave him like three chances. And he, I mean, that's just a real thing. I'm not even trying to diss him.

Like, they gave him like three shots at it. I saw John Carter in a theater. He just couldn't make it happen. Like sometimes guys nail it and sometimes, you know, for whatever reason, they don't resonate with the audience and they didn't. But this for him is a big, big, huge deal. And when you look at the actors that were sort of in this orbit for the movie, you think about, you know, some other careers, some what ifs. You know, we're going to talk about that a little later and, you know, and what ifs. But this was a role that people thought first, hey, this is going to be a Leo.

type or an actor, a younger actor that's already sort of minted. And no, they go with a guy who's solid, but not quite the tour de force of some of those other guys, and he nails it. He becomes that generation's Peter Parker. What are your thoughts on Tobin McGuire or Spider-Man? So I had

a different trajectory than you where I'd seen Spider-Man and then I would go to like my grandparents' house because they had all the cable channels. And then I started watching like Pleasantville and the Siderhouse rules. And what? And watching those movies, I'm not like, oh yeah, that's Peter Parker. That's like, that's going to be the movie star. Like, he was a great actor, but I never thought he was going to embody Peter. And when I went back to watch, like, the featurette that they used to do after all, like, the DVDs, the Blu-ray shit.

Like, Toby McIre is, like, talking about Peter Parker as a thespian. Like, he's talking about how much he need to dig into the role of, of this. He's a real actor, bro. Yeah. I'm like, no one talks. about comic book movies like this, but like Toby O'Guire is so just like, no, I really had to get into this role of Peter and I was just like, this is, this is just such a stamp of where we were

in the 2000s where you didn't really know what a superhero movie would be. Hugh Jackman was not Hugh Jackman yet. You know, do you think Toby McGuire ever thought like this might be the end of my career if they fucked this movie up? I think you always have to think that because remember now, there are

guys who have messed it up and still have been okay, but it's still a stain on their career. George Clooney's big chance was Batman and Robin. Of course, he was able to come back and make movies after that, but like, when you blow a shot like that, when you blow one like that, people remember it. And so for Toby, I'm sure there had to be some trepidation about being seen in this way.

You know, you're coming from the ice storm, you're coming from Pleasantville, movies that people really loved. But movies that are grounded, in more dramatic themes that are easier for audiences that are uninitiated to fall into because they're talking about the human experience.

With this one, it's a tricky thing to do. You don't talk about it as much as far as the acting or the performance in superhero movies, but there's always a fine line between being heroic and being arrogant,

between being vulnerable and being weak, and between being accessible and being larger than life, that any person that is leading a superhero movie has to walk, you know. And, you know, you have two other actors in this film, Kirsten Duntz and James Franco, that are, would go on to be, face it, arguably you could say, bigger Hollywood presences than Toby McGuire. James Franco, certainly.

Kirsten Dutz is probably along the same lines. And they nailed their parts as well. Kirsten Dutz could come from Bring It Island. She had been as a kid in an interview with a vampire. But having her be Mary Jane in this, which was something that I think a lot of the comic book fanboys like myself didn't think she would be able to do. She nailed it. She nailed the vulnerability.

She had the strength. She was flirty. She managed to be sexy. I don't know if I can say that like a high school girl because she starts off in high school. Then they graduate if she was sexy, but she was very sexy in the role. And, you know, James Franco now kind of embodied the. crass, asshole, little, duchy, creepy bastard that we kind of went on to learn that he actually was.

Can I, before we get onto the categories, can I pitch you on this curse that I've noticed happened? Because I'm looking at the domestic box office for 2002, because Spider-Man's number one. Then you add attack the clones at number two. You had Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets at number three. It was already beginning. It was starting. And at six, you add the Lord of the Rings of Two Towers. Going off your point of saying, like, oh, James Franco and Kirsten Dunst,

almost had bigger careers than Toby after this, I'd argue that all of the leading men of those movies, Hollywood just did not know what to do with them. Like Daniel Radcliffe, Hollywood does not know what to do with him after Harry Potter. Elijah Wood, same thing. Toby, same thing. All of these, like, leading men of these franchise, there was nothing left for them.

You know what I'm saying? After this moment, now if you're in an MCU movie, they're kind of like, all right, we know where to place you. Chadwick's in a Black Panther. they know what happens after that. We've gotten good at giving actors that other layer of their career. Looking at all of these, I'm just like, damn, the leading men of most of these movies had a dip after this.

You know what I mean? Okay. Well, you could look at it that way, but you could also look at it another way as well, is that Hollywood doesn't know what to do with you when you're 35 and you look like you're 12 years old. So the three guys that you're talking about told you. it's not a diss, okay?

Because you can make an argument in this situation. You can make an argument that Vigo Mortensen is actually the lead of the Lord of the Rings, right? You can make an argument that he is obviously a co-lead of that movie, right? Or by the end of it, definitely. He's definitely big. Right, or Orlando Bloom.

They did just fine with those guys until Orlando Bloom really injured his career by being that weak in Troy, which I would have never played that part He just played the biggest bitch in the history. I know somebody had to play. Wait a minute, man. I know somebody had to play, uh, was it Paris? Is that the guy?

Is that his name in there? Paris? I'm like, I know somebody had to, somebody had to play him. But God damn, bro. How am I supposed to believe you as a badass after that? When you are just, like, you are the worst. Like, and I think that actually heard him.

Um, I'm serious. I think that movie hurt his career. I'm not bullshitting you. But going back to your main point, you think it's the baby face curse. You think it's because they had baby face for the next decade? I think it's the arrested development curse that sometimes they look young. You know, now, after a while, sometimes you can find your way around it. But they're not the only guys that went through that.

It's hard to look at Haley Joel Osman. You know, it happens sometimes. You know, when you're along that sort of thing, it's tough. McCauley Culkin had the same baby face curse where you're just like, dog, you still look like a kid and you're 25. Well, we know him as a kid. And so that's the thing, right? So his brother, to do whatever he wants,

his brother's amazing, amazing on succession. But I think it had to do more with those roles called for a specific boyishness that those three guys have, Elijah Wood, Daniel Radcliffe, and Toby McGuire. And sometimes that boyishness, if you can't discard it, it becomes a thing later on. But I digress.

Before we move on, I do want to talk about Sam Ramey, because the list of directors Bro, the list of directors. Stop, it's insane. Like, it's wild. That could have done this movie are just, it's absolutely astounding. James Cameron, Chris Columbus, David Fincher. Like, they really were going, I mean.

I told me, I saw M. Night Shyamalan at one point was being thrown around. Eng Lee. Rowan Emory. Barry Sondonfield. Michael Bay. Yon DeBondt, M. Knight, Tony Scott. Can you imagine a Michael Bay Spider-Man? Can you imagine Spider-Man the movie by Michael Bay,

close-up shot of Mary Jane's butt, cut to Spider-Man. That's what it's going to be, cut to Spider-Man flipping into a chemical plant as it blows up in slow motion with a random, random Glenn Moorshauer cameo that comes in the middle of the movie or somewhere like that. Like, can you imagine Michael?

Mary Jane would have been in like a wet t-shirt, like cleaning the spider buggy. That shit would have been crazy. No, to be honest with you, Pamela Anderson would have been Mary Jane. So the movie would have been Spider-Man, Charlie Sheena's Spider-Man, Pamela Anderson is Mary Jane.

Like, it would be totally different movie. Even James Cameron said, it's because he didn't get to do his version of the Spider-Man movie that he ends up going to do Titanic. What do you think what do you think movie history happens if James Cameron actually gets to do Spider-Man and never does Titanic? Interesting. I'm not sure. I know that his Spider-Man movie, if I remember correctly, called for a pretty hardcore love scene between Mary Jane Watson and Spider-Man on top of the Brooklyn Bridge.

So I do think that the fandom, that Comic-Con looks a little different for a lot of years. It's a much more hornier Comic-Conn. If James Cameron gets to show them. It looks like a porn hub convention. It gets weird. You know, it gets a little weird. But, you know, he had true lies. He had, James Cameron had a pretty successful 90s.

I think maybe things happen a little bit faster, but also you have to remember, things always go the way they're supposed to go. Because when this movie arrives in 2002, the effects, have caught up to the point to where the film can actually be what it had to be, right? Yeah. And so as we move forward, the special effects get better and better and better because we're going to see, you know, you see the Lord and Rings trilogy, by the time Returner the King comes, things look even markedly better than they did in fellowship.

So it's, it's totally different. And I think making this type of movie in the 90s, it's really tough. I mean, I was just thinking, like, is James Cameron, does James, Cameron even become James Cameron. He's already James Cameron. He's already James Cameron. But I'm talking about like Titanic. James Cameron, by the time he gets to Titanic, he's already James Cameron.

I know that, but Titanic is the was, for how many years? The biggest movie of all time? That is just like for the next year he could do whatever he wants for the end of time. If he does Spider-Man and the effects are not good, does he get dinged? You know, he could, you're cheesing me with this. He could do Titanic. He could do Titanic. Titanic was the whatever he can do.

He can do whatever he wants. Sure. Yes. That Titanic was that movie. All right. Don't get me starting on my James Cameron love because he had done fucking Terminator 2. Like, true lies. Like, so yeah.

Aliens. Yeah. Aliens. Come on, man. Come on. We got to do this. We got to do this. We got to make, we got to make sure we love him.

But yeah, this is a huge deal for Sam Ramey, though. Huge deal from Sam Ramey. If we're talking about a guy, Sam Ramey is a fantastic director, right? Obviously, everyone knows Evil Dead, Evil Dead, Two, Army of Darkness. Quick in the Dead, love that movie. A simple plan for the love of the game, like a little curveball for him,

The Gift, and then Spider-Man. Spider-Man comes, and that takes him from being, what I would say is, Sam Ramey, great director, to Sam Ramey, Blockbuster maker. Sam Ramey can make the biggest movie in Hollywood. So it was huge, huge, huge deal for Sam Ramey. And his career after this is one of the more fascinating careers to me in all of Hollywood because it is now 2022.

And he's just coming back to the genre. He doesn't make another superhero movie outside of these Spider-Man movies. since these. He comes back, he dragged me to hell, Oz the Great and Powerful. In 2013, he hasn't directed anything since then. So I personally think, do you think that in James and Sam Ramey's career,

that there was a part of making these films that perhaps he didn't dig making these big movies as much as some of the other directors do? I mean, by the time he gets to Spider-Man 3, I just think these type of films, Like, you have to think about it. Josh Whedon only made two Avengers films.

And he was very, very clear about the emotional stakes, having to deal with all of, like, the corporations and everything like that. So the fact that Sam Ramey has to do three of these films, he essentially has to learn how to make CGI that looks good and to keep scaling it up with each film. By the time you get to Spider-Man 3, I'm just kind of like, I would be gassed as a director. Like, I don't, the fact that he's coming back to make Dr. Strange in the multiverse,

multiverse of madness later this year, I'm just like, that took a lot of healing. I would assume he had to get into the back to tank. The one thing that I wanted to tell you is that I went, went back, watched Darkman, and I realized he releases Darkman in 1990, how much that is almost a prototype for what Spider-Man would become in just terms of, like, without Darkman, I don't know. what type of Spider-Man movie he makes. But I was watching that, I was just like,

oh, this has all of the bones of that first Spider-Man film in it, down to the fact that he uses some shots from Darkman in Spider-Man. So I was just like, this is kind of wild that he had to make his first independent superhero movie that was all his own idea to kind of get this chance to be like, all right, I'm up at bat. I know what I need to do to make this a success. Yeah, he played around with a lot of genre and a lot of the horror elements in this movie really, really work, especially when it comes to Green Goblin being the villain

here because, you know, there was some talk, there was going to be Dr. Octopus, there was some talk, there was going to be a couple of other people, because different iterations of this script, as it had bounced around, as Caracol had it, as, you know, Golden Globus had it, or whoever, as the options made their way, because there is a fantastic, we don't have time to go into it on this podcast, but a fantastic sort of 15-year odyssey of this movie making it to the screen of different people having the option, how the option ended up at Columbia, how Sony ended up having it, how it ends up finding its home there. Of course, now we know that Spider-Man is synonymous with Sony. It's the only really big sort of deal that they have and they have to

read, they have to make a Spider-Man movie at Sony every five years or the rights revert back to Marvel and Marvel has the character and Sony'll never let that happen. So you're going to get Spider-Man every five years from Sony in some sort of way. But like the Odyssey, if it gives you. It's getting there is also an odyssey of different visions of the film, different villains of the film. Of course, we talked about different directors. And in the case of San Ramey having it, you know, going away from Dr. Octopus as the main villain and going to Green Goblin, it fell right into his horror wheelhouse now. I think even the history of the movie jumping hands is the history of like what was cool

in Hollywood at the time. Because if you go back, you should do your research on it. It's fascinating. is like all of the stuff that they wanted to do with Spider-Man from like how he got his power to the horror elements to this and that I was just like oh if this came two three, five, ten years earlier I think Spider-Man, we may never have gotten like a Spider-Man film because they just didn't know what to do with him until this movie.

All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back with the categories. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh juicy seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices

on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. All right, Charles, most rewatchable scene, Spider-Man, the movie from 2002. What do you got, the most rewatchable scene? All right, I have three.

The first one, I still love the Peterverse Flash high school scene. I think you're pretty funny, don't you freak? Flash, it was just an accident. My fist break in your teeth, that's the accident. Come on, Flash. I don't want to fight you, Flash. I wouldn't want to fight me neither.

Kick his ass, man. Everything from when it starts when Peter catches Mary Jane, she slips, catches her. He does the thing with the tray where he catches all the food that supposedly took 156 takes, was not CGI. To the fight with Flash, so good, so good. We could talk about it in the picking knit section. None of these high schoolers look like high schoolers. These are like 40-year-olds playing. The era, though. That was the era, though.

This is Dawson's Creek. But no, forget about Dawson's Creek. Dawson's Creek was one of them, but this was the era. We didn't used to care about that, Charles. I'm sorry, I'm young. I'm watching Euphoria. Oh, you're watching Euphoria. But they're old as hell too, though. In the first season, they look like kids and died. But they're not, like, in high school.

You know what I mean? The adult in Spider-Man Ford looked like they have fucking 401Ks. It's bad. So what I'm saying is, you have to remember, this is coming right off the heels of the Beverly Hills, Noto 210 era, where one of the girls, I can't remember her name, was Gabrielle Cartez. I can't remember the name she played in the show, the person she played in the show, but she was like, I guess at that time, she was supposed to be the one that was, I don't want to call her. She was the one that was not as, see, I can't say it. Oh, right. No, no, no, no, no, no. They're not canceling us on the big leagues. They're not canceled us on the watchables.

But the one that she played, I can't remember the name of it. The one that she played, there was like, she was in love with Brandon. And you had, you know, Jenny Garth on there. You had Shannon Doherty on there. And then she was the kind of girl next door type. All right, no, you're going to get you. She was the girl next door. She was.

And, like, in real life, she was. actually like 35, which was probably why Brandon went fucking with her because he was like, yo, man, are you a TA at the school? Are you a teacher's eight? So that was happening. And Luke Perry and all of those guys, they were much, much older. So that was the way. It wasn't until like fucking gossip girl and all of those other joints that they started. Like, let's cast people that look like they could actually be in high school. Because I'm even Toby. I'm like, Toby was like 25, I think at the time. Everybody in this movie at high school, I'm like, I'm glad you y'all graduated.

There was been one year in high school, though. We should say they graduate high school. They're basically college-age kids at this point. Like, they're freshmen. Yeah. But that was my first. I love the scene where he's realizing how strong he is and he punches splash. It's just, it's great.

It's amazing. But I think the one I want to go with is the training montage. I thought it was so cool when I was a kid when, like, Peter's actually drawing his costume and you see him go through all the iterations of the costume. He's testing the spider the spider um web shooters, everything like that.

That to me was, they got the film right. When it doesn't, like another lesser film would have had Peter Parker already knowing how to use his powers from the minute he gets them. This film, you can tell Sam Ramey is a fan of the comic books

because it takes Peter a little bit of a while to figure out like how do I shoot webs? How do I swing? How strong am I? Can I do a backflip? Yes, I can do one. And by the time he, like, it takes an hour.

Now, this would not happen in an MCU film today. But it takes him an hour to get into the actual Spider-Man suit. But by the time he gets into that suit thematically, character development-wise, you're like, oh, he worked for this. When you see him swinging the suit for the first time, you're like, oh, no, like, this is the payoff. So I have to go with that one. So I had a couple. And this movie is so insanely rewatchable to me

that it was very, very difficult for me to choose the most rewatchable scene. The first Spider montage, of course, I did have that one. You have to do that. Well, the training sequence is one, but then the first montage of him as Spider-Man. Oh, yeah. When he's got the suit on, he's flipping around,

he's being Spider-Man. You have to have that one. That's amazing. Of course, him learning his powers is great. Spider-Man and the Green Goblins' first, fight at the big time gala. That is an amazing scene. I love that scene.

This movie has, you don't like it, that's fine, fine, difference of opinion, it can happen, okay? That movie, this movie to me is some of the best, some of the best superhero action scenes that we see,

like, in terms of hand-to-hand combat, because these are two guys who are basically both beating potatoes, kickers, and punchers, but they're enhanced, right? enhanced. So to me, I thought that that was one aspect of it. And Sam Ramey really nailed. And he's not known as an action director. So it's surprising

looking back on it, just how good the action sequences in the movie are. Can I just say, I don't know if you had the scene, but the final fight with Green Goblin and Spider-Man in like the abandoned house, how it's just like, to your point, Sam Ramey isn't known for his action. I'm like, God damn, this fight looks amazing. Like, it still looks good in a way that even sometimes now I'm just like, oh, some of the modern superhero films, because it's so C-Gi'd, sometimes you don't feel what it's like when they land a punch when like Green Gobloos whooping Peter's ass. I'm like, damn, this feels real.

So the final fight I have is won, the Thanksgiving scene. I love. Good. So good. Green Goblin, you freaky bastard. When he licks the marshmallow off the scene. In a Thanksgiving scene, I'm going to be honest with you. It could be argued in a Thanksgiving scene of Spider-Man.

that Green Goblin attempts to fuck both Mary Jane and Upmay. Ooh, that's a freaky three, so. It's a freak. Green Goblin is a freak. And let me tell you, let me, let me tell you what's going on here. Green Goblin looks at Mary Jane, right? And he gives her those eyes. He gives those crazy eyes like, yeah, girl, what's up?

And then when, when Up May hits his hand away, whatever, under seasoned casserole that he dipped his hands into, sweet potato casserole. He then looks at her and licks his finger and upmay's face like, what's up? Like, what's going on?

It's like, it's a weird, weird deal in that scene, but I love it for that reason. And that it's also a pivotal scene in the movie because it's the scene where Spider-Man learned, what Green Goblin learns, that Peter Parker is Spider-Man because he has the glider cut on him.

this is why I love fighting with you because I always, there was always this thing in the back of my mind. I'm like, why is no one being so mean to marry Jane out of nowhere? But you are right. Like, he's going a little,

he's not all there. He's losing it. He's losing it. And there's the jealousy of seeing like Harry with this beautiful woman. So when he walks out and starts like talking down on her,

like that makes a lot of sense. He's like, damn, he is really jealous as hell. Yeah. But the best thing, though, my most rewatchable scene is the most iconic scene in this movie to me.

It is the kissing scene in the rain when Spider-Man lowers himself down after he has saved Mary Jane, Kirsten Dutz, so doing her thing in this scene, guys. All right? You guys know me.

You know, ring her audience, you know me by now. You know I can't let it go without discussing it. She's doing her thing. It's a lot of rain, a lot of precipitation. That's all I'm going to say.

Keep a PG-13 here on the rewatchables. And they load down for the kiss. Things are popping. See, why did you go for it? I'm sorry. Like, why? We were talking around it. And we were doing a good job of it.

Why did you just go for it, Charles? You just went for it. But that scene, though, seriously became, you know, I think that was an MTV Best Kiss winner. And it's two iconic comic book characters in their first sort of romantic encounter. I thought the way they did it was very sexy. It was very romantic.

and it was very moving. But to me, when I think about that movie, when I think about this movie, despite all the big fights and all the big set pieces and all the action, that's the scene that I still think about. And so I think that's the most rewatchable scene to me. You have a knack for getting in trouble.

You have a knack for saving my life. I think I have a superhero stalker. I was in the neighborhood. You are amazing. Some people don't think so. But you are. Nice to have a fan Do I get to say thank you this time?

Can I ask you, is there a more iconic scene from any of the subsequent Spider-Man movies? Because that one did become like an encapsulation of a time period. I also will say it's very, very funny. Like, do you think that Toby and Kirsten started dating before or after this? Because it came out that they had started dating but didn't tell anyone. Amy Pascal ended up telling like Tom. Holland and Zendaya, whatever you do, do not start dating each other because all the

Spider-Men start dating their co-stars. Do you think that it was the scene that did it? It's a right of passage. Could be. You never know. She also might have been just trying to run from James Franco and then she fell in and just Toby Monash. All right.

I mean, yeah, he is a creeper. So what's age the best for you? Ooh. So I got to be real. I don't know if this counts, but the practical effects really worked for me. this film, whereas there's a version of this film where Sam Ramey gets, Sam Ramey's George Lucas, Phantom Menace had already come out, Attack of the Clones is the same year. George Lucas saw CGI, and it's like a kid who got a highlighter for the first time. He's just highlighting everything

in his book to the point where it's just like, if everything's highlighted, nothing is highlighted. Yeah. Whereas with Sam Ramey, he gets this new CGI toy, but he's still going back in his bag when you watch Evil Dead. Like, what makes that, film so visceral still is so much of it is practical. It feels like it's tactile. You can touch it. And rewatching this movie, one of the prime reasons I, in my opinion, age as well than like subsequent films like The Amazing Spider-Man is that all of the fight scenes, it feels like Toby is getting the shit-peed out of him. The blood looks real. When someone dies like Uncle Ben, you feel it. It's not like this was done on a green screen. A lot of times I'm like, oh no, I

could tell that they were on set doing this. It took stuntmen and Toby having to put in work. And I love that about this film. That's why I think it's infinitely rewatchable still. So that would be my first one. What's your first? Like, what's age the best? I mean, for me, there's myriad things that age best.

You know what I mean? But there are two big things for me that are aged your best. One is the superhero movie. Nothing has aged the best. To me, this is the definition of the modern superhero movie. This movie, has to, you have to talk about Blade. You have to talk about Blade.

You just must discuss Blade. You must discuss him. Okay. Blade comes 1998 and it's a character that doesn't have a lot of backstory that people were familiar with. The action, the story, it is sleek, stylish,

um, and really opens Marvel up in a way. But the structure of the modern superhero movie, this is, this movie begins it. This film starts it. It's not X-Men.

It's not Brian Snyder's X-Men from 2000. A movie was good. You hate that movie. Like, stop throwing shit on that shit. This ain't the Midnight Boys? The movie was, the movie's okay.

It's good in terms of, all right. Just no one thinks that movie's great, dog. What are you talking about? People love that X-Men movie. All right, bro. That shit's whack. Don't embarrass us.

Don't embarrass us. Don't embarrass us. Don't embarrass us. I'm not embarrassed. Nobody. I'm telling you that that's not a great movie. And that's a great movie. Great movie.

Bro, you're literally fucking eight years old when that movie comes out. You, like, have no clue. You're watching that, like, you're watching Teddy Ruxpin, Build a Bear, Care Bear Action. Like, I was there. I went to go see the movie in theaters, and I remember all of us leaving being like, yo, that's not what we waited for. And the reality is, even back then, people were like, oh, I can't wait to the next one because we took a mulligan on X-Man one.

Because when we went to the scene in the movies, I remember we won. we weren't fucking with it. Now, there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be like, oh, Vans wrong about this, but there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be like, yo, Vance right about this. That movie was some mid. It was some mid, all right? This is a wild take, yeah.

It's true, whatever, they're never going to invite us back on. Anyway, what's the other age best? So, so what's age the best is, so the superhero movie particularly has aged the best. Spider-Man as a character has aged the best. Think about this. You have Spider-Man in this film. You have two more Spider-Man movies, which we know this has to do with the option as well. Two more Spider-Man movies from Sam Ramey.

Then you have two Spider-Man movies with Andrew Garfield. Then you have three Spider-Man movies with Tom Holland. And that doesn't even count into, that doesn't even account for, should I say, all of the times that Spider-Man has showed up in a movie since then. Spider-Man has showed up an end game in Infinity War. in Civil War. He's shown up in all of these different, in Civil War, right?

So he's showed up in all of these movies. So Spider-Man on screen has been a staple since this came out. So the character of Spider-Man himself has aged sublimely since this movie has come out. It's been like, you know, and we're not even talking about

Spider-Man into the Spider-Vverse. We're not talking about the Spider-Man video games. This really was the re-invigoration and the rebirth of a character that had been a cultural icon for a long time. But after that, the video game comes in. A Spider-Man is just gigantic and huge. Before this, kids like Spider-Man,

but now he is probably Spider-Man and Black Panther, the go-to at birthday parties like everywhere. So it's all right for the new kids to have Spider-Man birthday parties, but when I said I had one, you looked at me fucking crazy. That's not what you said. You looked at the Spider-Man birthday party, and you were given a critical analysis of the guy playing Spider-Man. just get your gifts and take your little ass home and color.

Like this man do his job. Like he didn't come to, the guy that came to be Spider-Man, he did not come there. There was, we didn't have, why did, I never said that there was a Spider-Man. There was just plates and cups with Spider-Man on it. Really quick, I want to give one shout out for what's age the best. And it's one and a half things. The first Toby Gwires' portrayal as Peter Parker is, very good.

Is sublime. Like, he is my Spider-Man. I still think he's the best actor to ever. portray Spider-Man, a lot of what we know him to be, is in this film. I think across the board, people might argue me down. I think as a cast, this is the best cast of any Spider-Man film in terms of, like, quality actors acting their ass off. Sure.

I know that there's other people who would come along that are going to be big in this. But like, in terms of just like the quality of actors they got, dog, this is a murderous role. I love this. I love these performances. All right. So what's age the worst? all right, number one. This is the overall number one pick, the organic web fluid.

Just doesn't, it doesn't hit. Like when you first see, like, Peter has these weird indentations on his skin. And this is something that started when, like, James Cameron had this script treatment for Hayes Spider-Man. He's like, you know, why don't we make it like a metaphor for, like, teenagers and, you know, coming of age? just make his web fluid organic. I thought that shit was whack when I was a kid and I didn't know anything at the age of nine. I still think it's whack.

It just, it's weird. It's even weirder looking at it now in 2022 because it's just disgusting to think about. So that's my, that's my number one. And I got to be real. Some of the CGI is egregious. The festival balloons at the, at the fair look really, really bad.

And the skeletons, when Green Goblin kills all those people, and it's like, ah! And then they disintegrate. It's just not. Some of the, some of the CGI could have used this another pass. Okay, so a couple of quick things for me that was age the worst. Homophobia. Yeah. So there's a scene in this movie where Spider-Man is fighting in the professional wrestling situation,

and he's making fun of macho man's character. And he says to him, he says, that's a cute outfit. did your husband give it to you? That's not going to fly, okay? Yeah, I cringe that. That's not going to fly. It's not going to swing. Okay, Spider-Man,

they're getting your ass right up out of here. As a matter of fact, you better hope that not too many people go back and watch this movie after we're done with it, Spidey, because they'll, you'll be swinging for glad for the next 25 years. You can't talk like, you can't talk that.

You're going to have to do a lot of promo spot, Spidey. You can't talk like that. All right. Number two, as soon as the movie is over, I hear a voice. And the voice is of the lead singer from Nickelback. Now, so he does a song with the guy from saliva, and the song is called Hero. That song was a number one hit, okay?

This is before people realized that they fucking hate Nickelback. Once again, I was there. Y'all are lying. Y'all did not hate them. You might hate them now in retrospect, but they were everything. You couldn't go anywhere. Try to make it in a wild man.

Couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing. Y'all liked that shit. The whites were going up to Knuckleback? Not just the whites. Everybody. Everybody. And after this song comes, think about this biggest song of the year,

the lead singer of Nickelback and the guy from saliva do the song, this song goes to number one. This song sucks. It sucks. I don't think it sucks. All right. But I don't think that it sucks.

But reality, the song has aged poorly. Nickelback has aged poorly. Nickelback is just, it's their cultural pariah now. You can't even act like you dug them. So yeah, when I suppose I heard that guy's voice, I'm like, oh, shit, they used to be hot. All right. So casting what ifs, a couple of them here. Now, there are some big casting what ifs from this movie.

Kate Hudson turned down the role. of Mary Jane Watson. She had been offered the role. She turned it down. She wanted to do a movie called Four Feathers. I think it was Mina Savari, Jamie King, all turned down this role. All was thought of for this role. Alicia Witt also was in the running for this role.

A lot of people were in the running for Mary Jane Watson. For Spider-Man, a lot of different people were there in the running for that one. If you are a white actor, like, of a certain age, you were considered for Peter Parker. That's how long it is. Yeah, Freddie Prince Jr. Had Leonard DiCaprio. A lot of the guys at that point were in the running for this movie. But one that I thought was the most interesting was like,

Octavia Spencer oddly shows up in this movie as the lady who is working the desk at the wrestling event. That role was offered to Tignitaro by saying. Really? Yeah, Tignataro then read for the role. And apparently Octavia Spencer, who is one of the best actresses on the planet, read for the role as well,

and Octavia Spencer got it, over TIG Natara, who was off in the role, but then when she auditioned for it, I guess didn't blow anybody away in the audition. To me, why offered me the role that made me audition?

If I'm Tig, I'm like, yo, like back up, Sam Raymi. I mean, even Elizabeth Banks, I think, was trying to get in on Mary Jane, And they had to give her a consolation prize because they said she was too old and she's like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm a year and a half older than Toby.

So that's how she ends up is Betty Brand. Also, James Franco also auditioning for Peter is wild. That would have been a terrible movie. I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, I can act. He's all kinds of problematic, but he can act. All right, best that guy, aka the Joy Pants Award. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You forgot the biggest of them all. Nicholas Cage is Norman Osborne. That could be, yeah. I mean, Casson would have. Nicholas Cajer's Norman I was born. I actually didn't see that, but there you go. No, I was just thinking of just like, this is a completely different movie

if Nicholas Cage gets to be Green Goblin. Do you think people would have fucked with Nicholas Cage's Green Goblin? That's too young. He doesn't really work as Green Goblin for me. Nicholas Cage was, he works as Green Goblin now. He is the Green Goblin now. Now Nicholas Cage is a Green Goblin. That's who he is.

No, if Nicholas Cage is next to James Franco, we're just like, what is happening? But like, this is three years after, this is three years after Nicholas Cage or three or four years after he was like up for Superman. That's a hell of a turn from Superman to Green Goblin. But yeah. That's a good pool though. Best That Guy, aka the Joey Pants Award.

So this movie has to me the greatest battle for Best That Guy in any movie ever. Give him to you guys. All right. So the guy who plays the robber in this movie. seen him everywhere. His name is Michael Papa Johns. Papa Johns is the last guy's last name. Any relation to Mr. Papa John's? Come on now. Michael Papa Johns has

124 credits on IMDB. And I see him in movies all the time. He just pops up. He's normally a goon, normally a thug. Michael Papa Johns plays the robber in this movie, right? Now, I thought he was a shoe-in until I watched this scene where they were cutting back and forth to all of these people and their opinions on Spider-Man. And they were cutting back and forth to them. I recognized the cop. That cop played a young Tommy in Goodfellas.

His name is Joseph Dinoffrio. That cop has been in 114 movies. he played young Tommy and Goodfellas. He played a young version of a different guy in a Bronx tale. He's been all over the place and it's still working now. I'm not sure who the best that guy is. I might need Craig to weigh in here. Oh, these are amazing choices.

I might need Craig to weigh in. I have no idea who either these guys are. But yeah, so I'm going to go with Michael Papa Johns, the guy who plays the robber. he had the bigger part. This doesn't count, but this is because I'm like just dumb and I just realize,

I realize it every single time I watch it. Flash Thompson. How do you say his name? Manginello? Joseph Mangonella. Joe Manginello. I'm just like,

oh, that's him because he doesn't have any facial hair. So every single time I'm like, who the fuck is this actor? Like I know his face. I know him from so many movies. He's Deathstroke,

obviously in the Snyderverse, but because he's just like spiky hair, no, no beard or anything. I'm just like, who is this? I always have to look it up every single time I watch this movie. It's actually his first movie role.

This was his first movie role, really? It's his first time ever on screen. I'm looking at all of his, damn. Is this his first time in the movie? You're right. Right. Because One Tree Hill is 2003 to 2012. He does Magic Mike.

Yeah. Interesting thing about that is he was actually offered a hundred bucks, by a crew member to punch Toby in the face for real during their fight. I saw this. I wanted to ask you this. That tells you how Toby was coming off with some of the crew. And maybe some of the things you've heard about Toby could be accurate if crew members are

trying to give Big Joe $100 to punch Toby in a shit. So I just wanted to ask you, you really think Toby was off the shits even back Spider-Man one? Like I can see Spider-Man too. Like he's like, all right, y'all can't talk to me. me now. Like, you ain't in my tax bracket. But even then he was like, the crew members, like,

somebody needs to deck this, man. I think the, you know, I think the $100 bet, or the $100 dare speaks for itself. All right. So, Vincent Hanna, give me all you got award for overacting. There are only two guys in this particular movie that are up for this.

And once again, like some other things, it's a dead heat. One, of course, is J.K. Simmons. It's J. Jonah Jamesonison. Now, he's overacting, but he's still in the right movie. We have not talked about J.K. Simmons in this movie. This is J.K. Simmons coming off. Big, huge thing for J.K. Simmons. J.K. Simmons

is coming off a role in Oz as Beecher that a lot of people had known. Brutal, brutal, brutal role. And then he gets here in this movie and his comedy is up to par. He's great. He is hammered it up, but it works. The second one, I have to say,

somebody who is absolutely giving it, every single cell of his body and every seen that he's in, not just in this movie, and in Spider-Man No Way Home, which just came out as Willem Defoe. Willem Defoe is giving it in this movie. He is a runaway for Defoe. Overacting, acting, over, over, over-acting.

He's snarling in this movie. Craig, Craig hit us up. And Craig is like, yo, Craig is like, Willam Defoe is, he's fucking punching it. What do I do? Instruct him in the matters of law. And pain. Make him suffer. Make him wish he were dead.

Yes. And then grant his wish. But how? The cunning warrior attacks neither body nor mind. Tell me how! The heart, Osborne. First, we attack his heart. It makes Jack Nicholson's Joker looks like subtlety.

Like, he is... who I actually like the performance. I think the performance has aged so well. Him talking to himself. Still amazing. Still funny as hell. The, I still laugh at the,

I'm something of a scientist too, Peter. Like, I actually, I would argue, is J.K. Simmons, does he deserve this award freely? Like,

this is iconic. I don't know if he's overacting. He's, come on, man. I mean, just because you're overacting doesn't mean that you're acting poorly.

I mean, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like, no, not really. Yeah, really. In the comics, yes, it is. No, it's not. Like, talking a million miles a minute, hanging up the phone on his wife and going, not really, he's like a, he is,

he embodied a new Jay Johnson. Look, I don't feel like Pacino is acting poorly in heat. But the, give me all you got thing, is just like, it's nuts, you know what I mean? Whatever. Give us your favorite lines on JK. Freelance, best thing in the world. for a kid your age and slender is

spoken. In print, it's liable. I love every single time. Gotcha. You love that. That's pretty good. It's a impression. It's Will & Defoe. All right, so the Dionne Wade's Award for Best Heat Check. Only one person. Octavia Spencer comes in, heats it up.

She heats it up in her own way. She heats it up in a dramatic Oscar type way. All right. That's how she heats it up. But the reality of the situation is that the person that comes in and really, really, really puts up the buckets. It's macho man, Randy Savage. She's in this movie for a minute, two minutes at the most. Two minutes at the most.

And my boy who is no longer with us, oh, yeah, is giving it. It's giving it in this thing. It's easily macho man to me. Take the train off. Hey, Brickshaw, you're going nowhere. I got you for three minutes. Three minutes of three time.

There's no one other. I actually applaud him for the fact that, like, he gets two minutes and he's just like, I don't give a fuck. I'm stealing this. I'm stealing this show. Hollywood's going to come a call in after this. Every single time I watch this movie,

it is one of the best scenes. Yeah, amazing. Recasting couch. Who would you recast? Two. These are going to be controversial. I'm recasting Carrie Osborne. As who, who you putting in?

Sillian Murphy. Okay, not bad. I just think... I like that one. He lands a little bit better in Spider-Man 3. When he, like, really turns evil and becomes the hobgoblin, I just think it just would have been better. And then people are going to...

Might attack me, but Kirsten Duns never really did it for me as MJ. Like, I don't think she's a bad MJ, but she's not, like, my perfect. I would have either gone with Dallas-Price Howard, who ends up playing Gwen Stacy and the third one. or Scarlett Johansson. Scarlett Johansson is not old enough to play MJ in this movie. I'm looking at all right. She was born in 1984.

She was born in 1984, so she would have been, she is old. She's 18 years old. Kirsten Dungsten Dung's 19, I believe. But now when they were shooting, I guess, I guess Garjo could work.

I guess Scarjo does work. I don't know why Scarjo, I don't know why Scarjo feels too young. Kierston Dunst had her around the same age, I think. I know. You're, you're, you're, you're, you say,

know, I'm thinking, I don't know why. But yeah, I guess so, you know what, to be honest with you, Scarlett Johansson is like born Mary Jane, right? She's like a Mary Jane, you know, we see her, I see her as a redhead now, even though she's not because of Black widow for so long. So I guess Scarjo could have done it, Scarjo too. Yeah, so Kirsten was, was born in 1982. So, yeah, she's like two years older than Scarjo. So there's really not a difference. I only have one. And it's always my goal to put some black people in the movie. That's always my goal, right? always my goal is put some black people in the movie. And when I was watching this movie, shout out to Bill Nunn.

Bill Nunn and Octavia Spencer are the only black people in this movie. I think Mary Jane has a friend. In a movie, in a way, this movie is kind of like the friends of superhero movies. There's a movie and there's no black people in the movie, which is, I'm not mad at it. Because it's so funny, in 2002 when I was in college, I even think of it. Like when I first saw the movie, I didn't think of it for years. It's only till after that I'm actually even thinking about it when I watched it, but I never even thought about that.

But so in my recasting, I'm going to recast Samuel Jackson as Norman Osborne. So here's the deal. No, no. Samuel Jackson, yes, I am. No. Yeah, it's happening. Samuel Jackson is Norman Osborne. Okay?

So Samuel Jackson is the Green Goblin in this movie. And because you recast Samuel Jackson, That means you also have to recast Harry Osborne. And this is why I'm really going for it. Because the new Harry Osborne is, boom, boom, boom, Tyrese. Oh, I love it. I'm back on board. I'm back on.

I put Tyrese in as Harry Osborne. Harry Osborne is Tyrese, Samuel Jackson, and Harry Osborne. And you can add a real, you can add also like a weird racial undertone. You know what I mean? It's even better when there's a weird racial undertone. Because now what's going on between Mary Jane and Harry, it's like, you know, now there's different people that's looking at it and they're like, they're saying all kinds of things. And Harry could say, you can make Harry even more sinister.

He could say stuff like, you know, Pete, I'm dating her now. And you know now that she's with me, she's never going back. You know what I'm saying? Can I pitch you on something else? what could be really comic book accurate is I want both Samuel L. Jackson and Tyrese to have waves spinning, like Norman Osborne in the comic books. Like Tyrese got the do rag on. He's constantly like putting the pomade on, like brushing his hair being like, yo, she loved these waves. She's swimming, Pete.

You just can't keep up. It would be genius. So half-ass internet research here. Willem Defoe did 90% of his own stunts in this movie. It's very interesting. 90% of his own sons. We already talked about the Octavia Spencer Role that was offered to Tatea Natero.

We talked about that already. Hugh Jackman was actually supposed to play Wolverine in this movie. They talked about him having a cameo in his movie, which would have been a major, major thing in the history of fandom. Wolverine showing up in the Spider-Man movie, having the cameo.

Hugh Jackman flew to New York to actually do it. I mean, this was going to happen. And they ended up not doing it because they did not have access to the costume that Wolverine wore during the X-Men movies. So they couldn't get the costume for whatever reason. I think it was rights issues. And so, I mean, it's in the research. And so, like, he couldn't get the costumes so they didn't do it.

Also, speaking of costumes, there were costumes that were stolen. Yeah. So four of the costumes from the movie were stolen. stolen. Sony put up a $25,000 reward for their return. They were recovered after 18 months and a former movie studio security guard and an accomplice were arrested. Like, he had an accomplice to steal the costumes. I got to be honest with you. I want to be mad at him, but I really can't hate on him. Another thing about the film, James Franco and Toby McGuire were beefing on the set of the film. James Franco made a joke about

Toby McGuire said he had frog-like features. Wait, we had what? He had frog-like features. Oh, dear. He says he joked about Toby McGuire's frog-like features and Toby heard about it. And it apparently led to a rivalry between James Franco and Toby McGuire that exists

to this day. like the robbery exists to this day you can't be telling the lead to the show he looked like a frog but but if the crew if the crew is paying off somebody $100 trying to get him to punch Toby

baby James is like all right you know I gotta take him down to pick right Apex Mountain Spider-Man movies no uh Kirsten Duntz, yes.

Wait, this was their Apex Mountain you think? I think this is her Apex Mountain. Willem DeFoe... She's in power the dog. Come on, bro. What? It's not like she made better. She made good movies after this.

Yeah, but it's not about making good movies. I knew this is where we'd slip up here, Apex Mountain. Apex Mountain is a hazy category. It's not like what was the best movies she's ever been in. It's like, when did she have the most juice in her career? But she had Marie Antoinette in 2006. You know what? Delete this.

It is her. Wait, no, leave it in. Like, you want to, like, leave it all in. I was just saying, like, she has married. You want to argue. Like, she had powers back then. This is my thing with the kids. I'd be honest with you.

No one gives a fuck about Marie Antoinette. And, like, I don't know what to tell you, Charles. No one gives a fuck about Marie Antoinette. And the reality of the situation is, the power of the dog was great. But if I show people a picture of Kirsten Dunts, you're not even naming the movie that's actually pushing the movie. The movie I would say that's pushing it

is bringing on. I would say bring it on is pushing it more than power the dog. She's done great stuff. She has a great career going. She's got a great career going. But this is her Apex Mountain, man. She's Mary Jane Watson.

This is her Apex Mountain. You know what I mean? Come on, man. She's got a great career going. So Toby McGuire, I'd say, Yes. Toby McGuire, yes. Are we, is it splitting hairs if we are like, no, Spider-Man 2.

Is this real Apex? Or are we just doing all Spider-Man films are as Apex? I'm thinking this is, I think we can go ahead and give them the Apex Mountain Spider-Man. Spider-Man 2 could be it, but I think it's cool to combine them right here. The question is, is this the Apex Mountain for Spider-Man movies? Because I would say that maybe it was, but now. it has to be Spider-Man No Way Home. In terms of box office, in terms of like, for a film to follow up Avengers Endgame, like that, like, yeah, I don't think it's the Apex Mountain for Spider-Man films.

I had Toby McGuire in here. I also wanted to ask you, am I bugging for saying that this is Sam Ramey's Apex Mountain? No, this is Sam Ramey's Apex Mountain until, until next month. if multiverse of madness comes out and goes as crazy as people think that it's going to go, that it could push this movie at Sam Ramey's Apex Mountain. Of course, for me, Sam Raby's Apex Mountain is Army Darkness. You know what I mean? Like, I like Evil Day.

I like Army. I like Evil Day 2. I like what I like. Drag me to hell. All these are movies that I love, right? So I like what I like. But this is probably Sam Ramey's Apex Mountain. Or, you know, if we're counting this and Spider-Man 2 together,

Sam Raymox Mountain, but multiverse of madness could be a genre-changing situation. I disagree because multiverse of madness was going to be what it was going to be, no matter who directs it. That's not a shot at Sam Ramey. It's just like, it's called the Multiverse of Madness. I think Spider-Man

will forever be Apex. That's just my name. Picky Knits. Spider-Man gets in a fight with Flash Thompson at school. In this fight, first of all, the reason why this fight happens is because Spider-Man

mistakenly webs Flash Thompson's lunch tray or a lunch tray and he hits Flash with it. He then leaves the lunch area dragging the lunch tray with his webbing from his hand. Then he fights Flash Thompson and flips

over his head. So the whole school has seen him web the tray and do the mid-air flip. No one can figure out that he's Spider-Man. Mary Jane saw both of these things. Mary Jane saw him web. I don't know what they thought that was.

Saw him web and saw him flip. She can't figure out he's Spider-Man? Let's take this one step further. I forgot that this even happened. At the end of the movie, she kisses Peter again. He leaves from the cemetery. And then she feels their lips. She's like, those are the same lips of Spider-Man.

I'm like, Mary Jane, this is a man who was literally talking to you. you are about to get mugged and then Spider-Man shows up five seconds later and it took you this long between the high school between you getting saved by the muggers from Spider-Man

and then you kissing him at the cemetery it took because this is like what this is over a year it took our year to piece all of this together and he takes pictures of Spider-Man come on more nits

looking back on it in the movie Peter blew up at Uncle Ben for just no fucking reason it's bad it's bad he comes off looking like a dick He blew up at Uncle Ben for no reason. Uncle Ben was just concerned and was dropping him off at the library

for no reason he blew up in Uncle Ben. As a matter of fact, I could... We'll talk about this and probably unanswerable questions, but he blew up at Uncle Ben for no reason. Another knit that I have, Harry is Peter's best friend. You just snake his girl like that, the girl he'd been...

And don't even tell him. You just like... I don't know, you just, Peter, you never made a move. You've been in love with the girl since you're six years old. That really happened between boys? Let me ask Craig. This is a, maybe this is a white boy thing. Craig, in the white languages, do, is it cool to just, if your homie doesn't really talk to the chick?

Is it cool to just go and grab her and just not tell him? Is that something that's cool? Yeah, super cool. No, obviously not. Oh, I was about to say. Oh, Jesus Christ. I was like, damn, you're talking out of white boys like that. Damn, bro.

Wow. Wow. No. No, I just, I never really thought about it until then. Oh, and in the beginning of the movie, it is hilarious because Peter's like, this is all I know about spiders. And then, like, Harry's like, shut up, you nerd. And then he immediately goes over to Mary Jane. He's like, so, have you ever heard about spiders? And like, Peter's just looking at him like, what the fuck, dude? And I'm just like, this is the guy that you're going to live with in college? Fuck all that. Right. I thought he was maybe doing that to try to put Peter on, but he just, well, his friends. Okay. Probably unanswerable questions. Is this a better movie if James Cameron is the director? No. Wait, are, is this a better movie if James Cameron directs it in like 2000, 2001, or if he directs it in the night? If he directs it, whenever he gets around to it, are we looking at an even better Spider-Man movie of James Cameron, James Cameron is the director?

Yes. I think so. Can I, can I? Can I read you my favorite? Really, really quick. This would be really, really quick. Can I read you some of my favorite lines from his scriptment? Sure. So this is what he wrote to when he was trying to do his film. Quote, Peter's a bright kid.

He doesn't have many friends. He's ostracized for his interest in science. Our MTV culture frowns on people who think too much. Intellectual curiosity is decidedly unhip. Who cares about where the universe came from or how the Greekshammer Troy? Did you hear the new Pearl Jam album? Number two. There's only three.

Peter is defiant. He thinks they are the real losers. They'll be flipping burgers while he's discovering the cure to cancer. Number three, Peter is a virgin and apt to remain that way for a while. He's your basic sexually pent-up adolescent. I'm glad we talked about that. He makes Peter look like the big sin cell. I have that written down because he is.

So I have that written down. I have that written down right here. another probably unanswerable question. Is Peter Parker a sociopaths? A little bit. A little bit. He, so, so has all his years as an in-cell, push him to a level of sociopathic,

uh, behavior that we can't really quantify. Here's the thing. In the conversation that he's having with Mary Jane while Aunt May is in the hospital, where he's lying to her about a conversation he had with, Spider-Man. It's a straight ball. It's a ball-faced lie, like a straight lie. Like, Spider-Man told me all of these amazing

things about Mary Jane. Yeah, I get the fact that Peter really thinks these things, but he's just straight-up lie. Like, yeah, I taught to Spider-Man, he told me to say this. It's weird. He kills a guy, basically. After the guy, the Uncle Ben's situation, he gets so mad, he goes off the... I mean, he doesn't

kill him, but he kind of is responsible for the guy's death. Let's Uncle Ben's killer go. he gets so mad when he realizes that his uncle Ben dies. He watches a man die. And then he goes back home to Aunt May and lies to her face. I'm just like, this is the, like, this is like the makings of a serial killer. Like, this is the wildest night for a superhero to have.

Blew up an Uncle Ben for no reason. Like, another- That all happens in the same day. Probably a sociopath. Like, really need to watch him. Really need to watch him. The kind of guy that would take it too far in a high-stakes poker game. All right.

What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie? First of all, do you have any probably unanswerable questions? Oh, no. I think you, mine was James Cameron as well. I think we already touched on it. My last one would be, if you could have any director, not James Cameron, but any director who was up for it.

So Chris Columbus, Engley, Tony Scott, M. Night Shyamalan, David Fincher. If you could have any of them direct the movie instead, who do you think could make a better movie than Sam Ramey? You have to choose. Fincher, and the only reason why I say that is because Angley fucked off. Chris Columbus is just not going to get it. It's not going to happen.

What are you talking about? I don't fuck with him like that. You don't fuck with Harry Potter. Oh, you have, you've never seen Harry. I don't, I don't, you know, I mean, that's like, I don't, you know, but so yeah. Okay. Could this be remade into a 10-episode Netflix show? Absolutely. I honestly think that with a 10-episode Netflix show, not only could you get the Green Goblin, but I think that this would have made way more sense to have Sandman instead of him being in the third movie, being in this one.

In terms of like the connection to who actually killed Peter's parents and all of that, definitely could be a 10, 10 episode Netflix show. Absolutely, it could be made to a 10 episode Netflix show. It just wouldn't be as good as this movie, but obviously we know that it could be. What piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie?

Green guy, they did this weird thing back when they were making superhero films where like they would give the superheroes like kind of dope shoes. Like, Batman, Michael Keaton's Batman, had like Jordans on underneath, like, they were part of the boot. I want Green Goblins and Nike flight posits. Like, every single time you zoom in on Green Goblins' foot, I was like, he's wearing Nike's. Does that mean like Norman Osborne just went to like, I don't know, flight club?

And was just like, all right, I'll take those real quick. Just pop them in the trunk. I want Green Goblins glider. Ooh. Is that memorabilia? What do you mean? Is it memorable? No, it's not memorabilia.

Yeah, it's a memorable. It's a big thing from the movie. What are you talking about? Yeah, I want Green Gobblins glider, I want. I'll have to go back to one picking Nets. It's my biggest nick, and it comes at the end. Spider-Man brings Green Goblin in, lays Green Goblin down on the couch. Harry comes in, he sees it.

He sees them doing this. He gets mad. Hey, what are you doing? That's my dad. He's not looking very well. Like, what's happening here? he reaches into a drawer in the study for some reason and pulls out a gun

why in the fuck would there be a gun in the drawer of the study at Oscorp what the fuck is going on at Oscorp? This isn't Oscorp, this is the mansion. No, excuse me. The mansion, whatever, that's even worse. The mansion basically is why would he need a gun?

Why would there be a gun in a random drawer? in the mansion, just a gun in a drawer. Like, in every single movie where there's a gun in a drawer, we're talking about movies like Road to Perdition. Even I was watching

the original Batman and Grissom has a gun on his desk. That makes sense, you know why? Because they are underworld bosses. So being that they're underworld bosses, they got guns in different places. Why would Norman Osborne have a gun in a drawer ready for him to pull it?

And really, it seems like Harry has the gun in the drawer because he knew that it was in there. If you're always ready, you don't need to get ready. All right. Wait, why are you hating on people having that thing on? I'm like, shit. Look, I got that thing on me. I got a gun.

I'm a gun owner. But I don't keep it in a random drawer in my, in my bedroom. That's not even a bedroom. That's like a study. Also, you're asking like this is what? I'm in the office right now recording here. Ain't no guns in here. All right.

The reason why this picking net doesn't work is like, Norman Osborne seems like a fucking war criminal. Like he's selling like weapons of mass destruction. He's something of a scientist. He literally is talking at the beginning of the movie to a bunch of military men who are trying to buy like the gliders and the injection things to make super soldiers.

Real quick, we got to move on. Do you think Elon Musk has guns in his drawer and his crib? Absolutely. Wrong. He doesn't have him. Absolutely. Do you know Elon Musk? Really? No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't have guns in his drawer in the script. You're tripping. All right. Who won the movie? My number one, Sony.

Absolutely. Sony, like, to this day, Sony looks like a different company without Spider-Man. The fact that they kind of saw the future before any of this MCU shit, where it's like, they're like, oh, no, Spider-Man forever. We're going to give you, and some of this contractual, obviously. But we just got a few weeks ago a Morbiased movie. They haven't let their foot off the gas since 2002.

And they kind of predicted where movie going was going so many years before. So Sony definitely won this one by a mile. Two winners. Short term, it was Toby McGuire. He was able to jump onto Hollywood's A list. This movie propelled him there. If you are the star of a movie that goes on to gross $825 million at the box office, $100 million opening week, gross is $825 million.

the box office, the number one movie of that year? Was it the number one movie of the year? I know domestically it was the number one movie of the year. Number one movie of the year domestically. If you go on to have that, if that's you, and you're the star of that. That's like Vinnie Chase starred in Aquaman. You won the movie, okay? All right, so you won the movie.

But there's a bigger winner and a longer term winner. And the longer term winner was, of course, the MCU. This movie to me is the reason. why the MCU exists. Because Marvel is sitting back at this particular point, right? They option this character. They get $7 million. Like you said, Marvel comes out of bankruptcy.

They option this character to get money. And they're looking at this and they're thinking, wow, this is very, very successful for us. This is huge for us. But we are not reaping the benefits from this like we could be because this character is licensed to Sony. What we really need to do is what we really need to do is figure out a way to take

our characters, put them on the screen on our terms, that they make our movies. Marvel then goes out some years later. They get a $500 million revolving line of credit from Merrill Lynch, and they make Iron Man. And that changes movie making forever. But I do not think that happens without the success of Spider-Man. And you have to look at right now the MCU as one of the more

enterprising, revolutionary and history-making filmmaking experiences, filmmaking experience, should I say, in the history of film. You just can't deny it. And I don't think any of that happens without this movie. So in the short term, it's definitely Toby McGuire.

You know, even though some other people, this blew up James Franco, a lot of winners from this movie, a lot of winners from this movie. But I think Toby McGuire won in a short time and the long term, it was the MCU. And there was also a long-term loser,

Martin Scorsese. Because every time he sees one of these, he can't fucking hell. He hates it. We love you, Marty. Do you think Martin Scorsese was in the theater for Spider-Man? The first one, he's like, damn, this movie's great. And now he looks back.

He's like, oh, fuck out. I didn't know. Marseiz was getting a departed radio or games in New York or one of those movies. He wasn't fucking thinking about Spider-Man. Marty, Marty, Mardt, it's going to be all right. All right. That was enough. Spider-Man 2002.

Charles Holmes, host of the Ring of Music Show, one half of the Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, myself. Host of Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay. and of course half of the Midnight Boys as well. Thank you guys so much. We love this movie. We love all of this stuff.

Our producer is Craig Horlebeck. Bye-bye now. Don't leave your girl around Craig.