The Rewatchables - ‘St. Elmo’s Fire’ With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: July 7, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan just broke your heart. Then again, they break everyone’s hearts. It’s time for the 1985 classic ‘St. Elmo’s Fire,' starring Judd Nelson, Emilio Estevez, Demi Moore, and Rob Lowe. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the rewatchables on the Ringer podcast network. My name is Bill Simmons. I'm here with Chris Ryan. Chris, don't let her go, man. St. Elmo's Fire coming up. I can't remember who met who first or who fell in love with who first. All I can remember is the seven of us always together. It's not just infatuation, Kevin.

She's not just a girl. She's the only evidence of God that I can find on this entire planet. Where did you meet Wendy again? Prison. Do you ever feel like you're not accomplishing anything at all? I think I'm in touch with that emotion. The heat this summer is at St. Helmost Fire. You have to believe it's going to be.

All right, it's been 35 years since we left Georgetown with seven precocious kids who somehow had a more interesting life at age of age of. 22 than any of us that ever had. This is the movie that launched the whole Brat Pack phenomenon. This is a movie that is 35 years old, but is still strangely watchable. This is a movie that has not aged well in some ways, but has aged fantastically in other ways. Most important to me, Chris Ryan, I just like a group of friends after college all hanging out trying to maintain those relationships. Why doesn't Hollywood make this type of movie more? It's too low concept. I was just talking with our producer Craig about this,

and I just think that they all have to be on a college football team or something. There needs to be some extra level of drama, and that's the thing that hits you as soon as you start rewatching this movie, is like you're going through it and you're like, wait, something's going to happen, right? Like something has to happen. There has to be some constant. And it's really just a portrait of these people's lives.

It is an incredibly flawed portrait. Like we've done flawed rewatchables before. And I think that the premise of those has often been, were it not for these one or two things, this might have been like a perfect movie. I don't think that's necessarily the case for St. Almost Fire, but I've seen this movie so many times.

I have seen this movie such a ridiculous amount of times from when I was a kid, and I thought like, oh, is this what older kids are like? Is this what it means like when you get out of college? To when I was like in college and it would just be on on cable or on a VHS,

to like even now where like I get roped in as soon as I hear that sweet, sweet, sweet, sacks. Yeah. Well, we've seen, we did reality bites on this podcast. We're going to do kicking and screaming at some point. The Big Chill, I was actually weirdly watching last night and then looking up and just couldn't believe William Hurt didn't get nominated for an Oscar. I still don't understand that, especially if you look at the 1983 Oscars. There's only been a couple of these movies. And then there's been some bad ones. Like Indian Summer, I think, is a good example of, oh, yeah, summer camp 10 years later and they're really trying to do San

almost fire Big Chill and they just can't pull it off. In the last 10 years, there's been a bunch of attempts at this because I think people like us have been sitting around going, why aren't there more of these movies? I think there's a higher degree of difficulty to pulling them off than maybe we give it credit for. In this case, much like Big Chill, seven friends. Yeah.

Plus you have in Big Chill kind of the eighth wild card was the Meg Tilly character who is married to Alex who committed suicide. In this movie, I guess the wildcard is basically Roblo's wife. Roblo, I guess, got married during college. Roblo's character, Billy Hicks, but it's like, so it's like seven and a half. Seven is usually the right number. We can meet everybody, get involved. They're all going to be different in some ways. And yet they just can't pull this off. They've tried. It's really hard. Well, one thing that people often steal from the big chill is like, forcing these people to reunite, forcing these people to be in a house together.

And I think one of the things that is at once working for and against St. Elmo's Fire is the fact that they are living their lives separate from one another. I mean, they're still friends, but they're essentially, we're catching them at the moment where they're about to all split apart.

It would be interesting if they had done, like, they had all moved into a house together after college. And they were forced to always see one another. But I think one of the reasons why this movie actually almost feels more like a compressed season of television is because all of the ABCD plots are happening independent to each other almost. We never meet Jules' stepmom,

but we hear all about here. The whole Curbo and Dale thing is happening over there. And when Kevin hears about it, he's like, who the fuck is Dale Bieberman? Most people, like, there's not a lot of overlapping of plots until the very end, but something like Big Chill, something like kicking and screaming,

it's a lot more like these people are kind of forced to interact and their lives are forced to live on top of each other. It hits two themes that I think have worked over and over again in some of the movies we just mentioned. I am out of college. What do I do now? I thought my life was going to come together a lot faster and a lot more successfully than it did. Man, this has been a rude awakening. That always works. The concept of I mattered more when I was in college and I had it going and now I'm just out here in the world world and I'm just like anybody else and I don't matter anymore.

I think that one has been really successful. And then the third piece of it is I probably aren't going to be as close to these people five years from now as I am right now. And I'm kind of realizing that, that we're all having this moment together. And it's probably not going to last. And I think when he leaves at the end and he goes on the bus, it's very apparent. The group's never going to be the same. They know it. They go outside to the St. Elmo's Firebar.

There's already a next generation of people at their table. And they kind of know like, oh, yeah, our friendship group has immortality. By the way, that's a great theme for a movie because it's happened to all of us. I know what happened with me. You have these people that you're incredibly close to and you think you're going to be friends, you know, in a really tight way for the next 40 years. And then everybody kind of moves in different directions. That's what happened.

Yeah, and it's a nice snapshot of also a time. in our history when I think people were really dependent and reliant on people, but didn't have as much contact with them. So you really weren't like just on a group chat with people texting all day, like, hey, you see the Mets one and, you know, hey, screw you. Like, you didn't pay me back for that beer last night. It's like they, they make plans. Like, and they're, they're calling each other when they're, you know, when they need one another. Jules is like making those phone calls. It's, and then, but I think the flip side of that is that, when that period comes to an end, the end is pretty severe.

Because there isn't like, hey, we can all keep in touch in these various ways. It's like, no, he's a Republican now. This guy is not going to be able to be with the love of his life. Curbo has switched careers three or four times in the last six months. So, Kerbo, pick a job, brother. So yeah, I think it all kind of becomes like almost a little time capsule piece that way. Yeah, so there's two paths. One is the here they are right after college trying to navigate this real world.

that's a reality bites did that kick and screaming did that too. Or there's the, we have to get back together. Yeah. Because of some event. It's either a 10-year reunion or a 15-year reunion. It's somebody died. And now everybody is thrown together again. And in some ways, the dynamic of the group is completely the same.

All the relationships are completely the same. And yet in other ways, the people are a lot different. And, you know, the big show is the best one of these. And I think for the last nearly four decades, people have been chasing the big show trying to recreate how special that movie is. It's a movie we're definitely going to do the rewatchables at some point.

And the key scene is near the end when they're having the whole heart to heart and William Hurt really kind of goes in on the crowd. Like, yeah, you're talking about how much you miss Alex, just stay in touch with them. Yeah. Like, what were you doing for him? And he's like, we have these relationships.

We all knew each other very intensive. for this very short period of time. And now we don't know each other at all. And Tom Barringer's fighting back, that's bullshit. You guys are my friends for life. And they're kind of both, right? Yeah. But that dynamic, I think people have been trying to figure out

for the last 40 years to mix results. San Amos Fire does a pretty good job of it. Well, I think that the same way that you get out of school and you start thinking about what you want to do for a career and the kind of person you want to be, you let that define you. But I think you're also defined by what kind of, friend you are. And I know that, like, I had a very tight group of friends in college. We all

lived in, like, a house together in Boston, and we were really immersed in, like, the music scene there. And then, um, like, you get out of that. But like, when you start thinking about, like, okay, so, like, who leaves first, basically? Like, there's always, like, that first person who was, like, did you think that this was going to go on forever? And we were just going to, like, live in this house and go out four nights a week and, and, and then kind of, like, scrubs. And, like, scrubs. grabble together retail and bartending jobs and like kind of minor careers in doing nothing and just hang out forever and go to the movies and then go to get dinner and then go to bars all night. That, that ends and it can end really abruptly. Yeah. So that's one thing. That's one

reason I think this movie has endured because in the span of two hours, they really captured that group and all these dynamics. Granted, it's flawed as how the movie goes wrong in a bunch of different ways as we're going to discuss, but it's really endearing. There's, and even I think if somebody was in their 20s and they watched it, I think they would still identify with a lot of it. The second reason this movie has endured is the moment in Hollywood that it captures with the brat pack, which we can tell the whole story about that in a second, but you're talking about all these people who were all already in movies with each other, right?

You have three of the Breakfast Club people. That movie comes out right before this movie. You have Andrew McCarthy and Rob Lowe. They were together in class. You have Demi Moore and Rob Lowe. They're about to be in about last night together. There's this cross section and there's this generation. And there's some people that weren't in this movie that we're going to talk about on casting what ifs.

And he got Cruz and C Thomas Howe and Timothy Hunt and people like that. When I did the Rob Lowe podcast and we talked about San Amos Fire, we're going to put that at the tail end of this podcast. They all kind of knew each other. there was a real moment. They're all partying. This is the cocaine era. This is people not realizing yet that party's not bad. The movie taps into that.

And there's a real generation here. And I think of all the movies from this generation, this movie and Breakfast Club are the two that has the most kind of people that you would associate with this generation. I think that's why it's endured. They were beloved, like teenage actors or young actors who a lot of people associate with parts of their childhood. and then it was like this first step into young adulthood.

And they were, I think we can talk about like how perceptions change. But what's stunning is you've got a movie. It's 35 years old. It's still a movie that most people associate with each of these actors. I think, you know, people still think of Rob Lowe, and they mostly think Billy and a couple of other things. They think of Ali Shidi. They think of Breakfast Club and St. Elmo's Fire and a lot of other things.

You know, they were essentially like rejected. after this. Like, the entire thing deflates after this. They get to this incredible peak, so young and so early in their careers, and essentially have their entire thing minted. Like, this is it. This is the new crop of Hollywood stars for the next 20 years. And something happens in there, whether it's partying or ego, or maybe just like they weren't, like, stepping up into the material that they wanted. And it all kind of disappears. Rob Lowe and Dime Moore, I think, endured and had success after this short-term success, and then for Domi Moore, long-term success.

You're right. Everybody else in this movie, this was kind of the peak. And we should talk about that Bradpac piece because it's really important. It was a New York magazine piece by a guy named David Blum. He was writing a piece on Estabez and went out with him. And Estabez thought it was going to be about how he's trying to be this young writer-director son of Hollywood royalty. He was directing that was then, this is now,

and invites, basically the guy befriends him. He invites the guy out, guys partying with Estevez, and he's just kind of writing down what he sees, and everybody gets too comfortable around this guy. And that could go one or two ways. Either you're bringing the guy into the fold and he actually likes you,

he doesn't want to burn you, or in this guy's case, he's approaching it a lot like, you know, the blog mentality of the last 15 years where he's like, I'm going to burn these guys. And he takes them down with this New York magazine piece. The cover says the Brat Pack or the new Brat Pack or whatever it was. And all these guys saw and they knew that was it that people were going to turn on them. The article's not flattering.

It's Estavis basically trying to find girls getting mad. He can't get it in a premiere. People are coming and going. But in a weird way, it did capture probably what their lives were like. It just tried to capture it in a negative way. And I think all these guys talked about it was a really damaging profile for them. And they knew it at the time and it bore out. Yeah, I think you know, you could go back with hindsight and say like what was unfair.

I mean, I think that the celebrity hit piece or the kind of like the more gotcha elements of celebrity profile journalism way goes back before like the last 15 years of blog stuff. But I think that I was reading this article that Car. Carl Carlander, who wrote, saying, Elmo's fire, wrote for deadline for the 35th anniversary. It was just his reflections on it. And his account of that piece is like, it's kind of what you're saying. It's like, this was pretty unfair. They invited him out. He was like, he was from out of town and Emilio was trying to like kind of be nice and show him a good time. But, you know, he's like, but at the time, like, I think he says like Emilio and Demi Moore are dating and Demi Moore is sober because she had gone into rehab before St. Elmo's fire started. And

he's basically like, it was a relatively, the takeaway is like it was an accurate enough piece, but it was not very accurate about that exact moment that the piece was written in. And I think that that's probably, it all comes out in the wash to be like, at the end of the day, like, they probably would have been able to overcome whatever attitude people had about them if the work was there and if the work had been better, you know? And I do not know what happened to Judd Nelson. Like, you know, like, I don't know what happened to some of these, these people in the, in their future endeavors, but, you know, it seems like the Brat Pack article really deflated them in the public eye, but probably they probably would have kept working more consistently.

Yeah, the work, the work wasn't helping. Yeah. And in some cases, like, you know, like Ali Sheady, she had a good run there from 1980 through 85, right? She's in war games. She's in bad boys. She's in Breakfast Club. She's in this movie. She's a couple more. Maybe she should have had a six-year run and that was it. I think if you were drafting at the time, if you just saw this movie came out of the movie theater and you're like, who's going to have the biggest career coming on this movie? You would have said Rob Loan to be more. Yeah. I mean, I think that the movie industry choose people up and spits them out. It's rare that we get to see it, that we see it in public like this. It's rare. I mean, usually it's like a behind the scenes thing where it's just like, oh, this person

hasn't been in movies for a while or like, you know, I wonder whatever happened to like that person who was like the romantic, the third role in this movie. And this is like pretty obviously like it all happens. And Ali Sheedy has talked about her experiences on San Amos Fire. And it just sounds like this was just kind of like the machine broke, you know. You think that was the most famous Hollywood article of the 80s? Of the 80s? That's the biggest one that I can think of.

Yeah. I can't remember. Is there like a really good Ishtar tell all that, you know, like I'm trying to think of like I'm trying to think of other ones. but to me that, like, I still, I, I, I knew that that article existed when I was very young, and it's stuck around. And it's weird because it was pre-internet. So if you didn't get New York Magazine, like, would you even known about it? Like, I didn't know about it.

No, but it became, it became, like, basically a common parlance to refer to them as the Brat Pack. So it just, it actually took on a life of its own. I knew that, but I didn't know how it happened. I guess it's my point. Sure, yeah. And I think even, like, the idea then, of, I think the new Hollywood squad of the 70s and kind of like the filmmakers that were coming out

and also like all the New York actors that were coming out like Pacino and De Niro and Hackman and all these guys in Duval. They had like a kind of like, this is a crew of guys that people perceived that. But I don't think it had ever been as crystallized as the brat pack was, these kids are next.

Everybody in America who's under 25 is obsessed with them. And pretty soon they're just going to be the biggest movie stars in the world. And it actually led to probably something that's still happening now, which is basically going around and trying to group people together through Luce Association to be like, that's the next generation. I feel like that happened in the 70s, though, and I think that was part of the backlash with these guys. In the 70s, it was the Pacino, De Niro, Harvey Cytel, Robert DeValle, all those guys. And that was a real generation that did great. But those guys just didn't all pose for a cover of a magazine with the headline you talking to me

and it's all those guys being like life with Marty, you know, like. Right. All right. Two other reasons I think this movie hit big and also endured. Here's the third reason. Music. Yeah. It's one of the

five greatest theme songs of any movie ever. And I remember I couldn't find it on YouTube when the NBA they used it for some Maker Celtics. Did they really? In the mid-80s. And it was like, the Boston Celtics believe that blah, blah, blah,

Valerie Bird had other ideas. It's just great. And I think the opening credits, which we'll get to in most rewatchable scenes, where it's like this wide shot of what we think is Georgetown. It's actually the University of Maryland. And this music and these seven people with their arms around each other walking toward the camera. And it's one of those things where you're like, I get it.

I know what this movie's going to be about. The music's great. it's endured in a really awesome way. And I think the fourth reason is just cable. This movie was on a lot. This podcast is called The Rewatchables, and this is a rewatchable because this was on all the time. It's a movie you could jump in and out of.

You can kind of see your friends for a half hour. You're like, oh, man, Billy Hicks, miss that guy. Yeah, I'm going to watch. Go make a sandwich every time Curbo is on. Oh, yeah, Curbo. I'm going to pee when he's on, and it just kind of keeps going and going. Bill, can I ask you a question?

Yeah. Do you feel like, because I remember what I remember of the 80s and being in middle school or like about 13, 15, whatever, up until like when I was around 15. I remember very much like pop culture ushering me out of childhood. Like being like you want to, it's cool to be older. It's cool to be your friend's older brother. It's cool to be like 19. It's cool to be an adult. like you can't wait for that to happen. Like I was in, I was in a big rush because I felt like I wanted

to like explore the world around me as I got older. Whereas like, I think that there was definitely a moment in the late 90s and has continued since then where there also was this explosion of pop culture made explicitly for like people your kids age and telling them like, you know, stay the age you are. Like here's all this stuff to be like immersed in now. Don't worry about what older people like, that doesn't matter. And I think that this movie actually is like the thing that I'm talking about where they're like, don't you want to grow up and be partying at St. Almost Fire and have like these adult relationships. And it almost seemed like something that I aspire to, whereas now I wonder whether or not people are in any big rush to grow up.

Well, you think about the mid-80s specifically. Yeah, I'm older than you, but growing up in that where we don't have the internet yet, how are we going to find out what it's like to be an adult And listen, somebody in our own life, a book, a movie, or a TV show. And that's it. So I think of a movie like this or even about last night or about last night really constructs a relationship. Beginning, middle, dip, comeback. And it's like that. I didn't know a lot of relationships when I was a 16-year-old, only child, you know, living on the East Coast.

And it was like, oh, so maybe. And then you watch another moment. It's like, oh, that's interesting too. And you take these little pieces from it. And for me, saying, Almost Fire was like, I'm going to go to college someday.

I wonder if, I wonder if that'll, I'll have a group like that. Yeah. And we'll stay together. Would we live there after? And you start thinking about all these things. I don't think that,

I think starting in the late 90s, I don't think people watch movies that way anymore. I think they have a much bigger awareness of everything that's going on, you know? I just remember being in school and whoever, like, the coolest kid in my class was, was still,

to me, only like a quarter as cool as like my friend's older brother or older sister who had like an echo in the bunnyman t-shirt and like wore an overcoat and seemed like just impossibly like living in another universe from me when I was that young. And I just wonder whether that's changed over the years because like you're saying like people have so much more ability to connect with each other and to see all this other stuff whereas like then it was really just these examples like, these fleeting examples of like, oh, is that what it's like to be 17 when you can drive? Holy shit. Like, I can't wait to get to that point.

Yeah, you're right. I did spend most of my time wishing I was older. Yeah, yeah. I don't think my daughter does that at all. I think my daughter loves being 15 and is really like enjoying the ride and all the checkpoints she's going to hit. I was different. I was like, I can't wait until I can drive.

I can't wait until I can go to college. I can't wait until I can go to a Celtics game. Right. You were the date, like all these things. I was thinking that. The other reason we're doing this podcast is because Joel Schumacher just died. Yeah. And Sean and Amanda talked about him a little bit on the big picture last week.

He was always gravitating toward whatever the most entertaining over-the-top version of an idea was. And I think this is a great example. Sent almost fire seven kids coming out of college. Well, their apartments are ridiculous. And he's the first one to admit it. He's like, I didn't want these people slumming it in these shitty apartments and, you know, eating ramen. Yeah. He wanted like the glamorous version of people out of college.

You look at Jed Nelson's apartment and you look at De Me Moore's apartment. It's like literally nobody 22 years old would have an apartment like that unless your dad was a billionaire or something. But that Joel Schumacher wanted, he wanted the glamorous, the glamorous version of the college experience. And this is a very Joel Schumachery movie. What are your thoughts on him? He comes from a background, I think, as a lot of people did in the 80s and early 90s, is like a background in fashion and a background in, you know, basically artifice, you know? And the idea of basically creating not like a realistic or accurate representation of something,

but like a fantastical version of it, the idealized version of it, the one that you were, if you're sitting in the movie theater, you don't want to see your smelly apartment with Kerbo. you want to see the perfect version of that apartment. And there's still part of me that when I see Kevin and Curbo's apartment, I'm like, it seems like a pretty cool place to live. Like, it's ridiculous. But like, you know, when you see it and Kevin's like dancing to Aretha Franklin and got bongos, I'm just like, this guy is such a corn dog.

But at the same time, I'm like, oh, I kind of like, like, I kind of know that when I was 20 and living with my friends, we had the same shit on the walls. We had the same like, what is this bottle? Is this whiskey or red wine? anyone tell anymore, like that kind of like vibe. And he was really good at creating that kind of heightened reality. And he was also like, I mean, oversaw some absolutely astonishing disasters, but also made like a bunch of really controversial, provocative,

and ultimately very rewatchable movies. Like I think I was like, when you first brought this up, I was trying to, I was advocating for flatliners because I was like, like he has a bunch of these. Yeah, and I'm not even sure flatliners a good. movie. Is Flatliner a good movie? But to me, it's like, that's kind of besides the point. Flatliners is a movie

where Keyfer Sutherland and Julia Roberts keep killing each other to like experience the afterlife. Like, I'm in. So the first movie he directed was incredible Shrinking Woman, bomb. Then he does DC Cab, which had a lot of people in it. Yeah. Yeah.

Was that good. I wanted to like it. I really, really want, I think Mr. T was in it. It had all the makings. It just didn't get there. And then he rips off, San Amos Fire, the Lost Boys, I don't know what Cousins was, flatliners, dying young.

And then he makes Falling Down, which is definitely one of the weirdest movies in the last 30 years. And there's a movie like if you showed young people, I don't think they know what are going on. And then after that, he's a huge commercial director, does Batman Forever, the worst Batman that's ever been made.

If we ever did The Unwatchables, Batman Forever would be on it. But then bounces back with a time to kill. Oh, I'm sorry, he did a time to kill before Batman and Robin. Wait, which one was the bad one? Batman Forever or Batman and Robin? I don't think either of them are particularly well-liked, but Batman and Robin is thought of as like the worst all-time.

That's Clooney, right? Yeah. With Chris O'Donnell? Yeah. A time to kill, which I really liked. Danny did my favorite 8-millimeter. For the listeners, I've been trying to get Chris to do 8-millimeter for,

two years. Even he won't do it with me. I have nobody to do it. I might have to get my best friend Jeff Gallen to do with me. If you did solo 8mm, I think we would have to close the feet. That's the farewell podcast. And then he did flawless, and then it just gets weird after that. Although I know you like Fombooth.

Yeah, phone booths good. Come on. That's like peak out of control, Farrell, right there. Just a lot of hit of misses. But, so he explained this. There's a really good book about the 80s and movies called You Couldn't Ignore Me If You Tried by Susanna Gora. So I got some research from that. So it's actually like full-ass internet research.

Schumacher told her, we inadvertently made it, this is about San Elmo's Fire, we inadvertently made a film about how everybody has a group of people. It's your team, your gang. No matter what it is in life, you all have this pledge that you're going to stay together. And nothing is ever going to split you up. But it doesn't work out that way. ultimately that's what this movie turned out to be that you can't stay friends forever

and I think that's why I like it so much among all the other reasons we're going to talk to. He also pointed out in the book that there hadn't been anything much written about graduated from college since the graduate when he was making DC Cab which was in Washington and he was looking at Georgetown and how there were all these young people

and he said it was the period of time when you're coming out of college you had to be already recruited by some company have a 25-year plan. You're wearing very expensive clothes. You were sort of pretending to be an adult. Yeah. And I think that's a good theme too, the whole concept of,

I'm pretending to be an adult, but I'm not an adult yet, as we found out with Perbo. Yeah. I also, I mean, it's kind of funny that I think the costumes in this movie say a lot about that because they're all kind of like trying on these new, these new personalities with their clothes. And like Leslie and Alec are like very uptight professionals. Kevin's still dressing like a college senior.

Billy's still dressing like a ninth grader. They all kind of are representing themselves in their clothes. That's a good point. So he wrote it. Curlander was his assistant and had this idea for a movie and then they ended up writing it together. And it became what it became. The film was announced in 1984,

producer Net Tan, and it was right after the big show. So he nicknamed it, The Little Chills. A little big chill. Big show momentum. The movie did well. I was surprised. It made almost $38 million out of $10 million budget,

even though the critics were not kind. They were not. David Denby, he called Shoemaker, quote, brutally untalented. That's tough. Joel Shoemaker, Joe Shoemaker is like an example of how, I don't know if there's,

really such a thing as director jail. Because this guy has overseen some of like the most critically reviled and biggest disasters and just made movies like over and like just kept doing it. Right. Well, um, Cisco and Ebert, there wasn't a review online about it, but he did give it a thumbs down. You won't be surprised. So that was Roger's, Roger's take on that.

And then, uh, David Demby also said, San Juan Omba's so depressing, a poor. of Hollywood's teen's psychofancy because it's not only devotes itself to stupid kids. It accepts their view of the world without any real criticism. Dave. Dave. Dave did not like this movie. Settle down, Dave. By 35 years later, take us, Settle Down Dave.

Well, it lives on. We're going to take a break and then we're going to go to the categories. From the Ringer, I'm Tyler Our Times. When I spoke to NFL star Cam Newton in January, his mindset was clear. I want my whole career to be in Charlotte. Cam won't be getting that wish. He was released by the Carolina Panthers in March. Cam is a complex figure, and my interest in him goes far beyond his exuberant smile and transcendent style of play.

Cam broke the glass ceiling in American Athletics, ascended to a place in a sport that few black quarterbacks have ever reached. making his fall that much more dramatic. Over the past year, I've traveled the country speaking to coaches and teammates, friends and family, reporters, and even briefly to the man himself, trying to unravel the enigma that is Cam Newton. I uncovered contradictions at every turn. How can the hardest work on the team be depicted as a bad leader? And how can the franchise icon with the NFL MVP and Super Bowl appearance on his resume

be so abruptly cast aside. The Ringga NFL show presents The Cam Chronicles. The series premieres Monday, July 13th. All right, most rewatchable scene, St. Elmo's Fire. I really like the opening credits. Just wanted to put that on there

because we get to hear the music, the whole thing. First one, the first St. Almost Fire bar scene. When we get to see everyone in the bar, there's cheesy 80s music. We get to see everybody in their habitat. at, uh, Judd Nelson dunks Rob Loz said in the water. The metaphysical precision collision. Rob Lo's really going for it.

He just, he just strapped it on. He says, fuck it. What was your, uh, what was your bar? What was your right out of college bar? Because everybody's got the place in their early 20s. I never had one. You never had a single place that you went to over and over again. Well, you were, when did you start bartending? Like, right after school? No, that was like four or five years later.

There was so many bars in Boston. And we had probably the Sevens was my favorite one in Beacon Hill. But I never, I was kind of moved around. I went to the model a lot in Alston. And then I went to the Middle East a lot in Cambridge in Central Square. My favorite barber was Sam's and Portchester, which I've talked about many times because they had shuffleboard. But that was when my friend's Jimmy Camp had been. Next we watchable scene, the first Jeep scene, it's short, but it includes the iconic exchange.

I'll let you be Jed Nelson. what the hell is the three-year chairman of the Georgetown Young Democrats doing working for a Republican? Moving it up, Kerbo. What the hell is the three-year president of Georgetown's young Democrats doing working for a Republican now?

Moving up, Curbo. Let's get trashed anyway. He could have thrown him the second moving up, but he decided not to. And then they did the Ugolo Bougolo Buba, whatever. So you know that the ugla-bugula was like something that they, those guys,

the actors would see people doing in bars, right? Right. Yeah. It seems like from the research, five of them were really tight. Andrew McCarthy was an outcast. He was like, I'm just trying to be an actor,

man. And he was living in New York too most of the time. Yeah. So he was kind of not in the group. And then Mayor Winningham, I think, had a kid. So it was the five of them that were really tight.

Next we'll see, Billy goes on the roof when he's at Mayor Winningham's house. The frat house, I'd crawl right out of Alex window on the roof, my horn. Yeah? I don't believe that this is ridiculous. I'm walking down here. I know at the minute he came in the door. Drugs.

I don't know. I'm always into somebody being on the roof trying to flask it. Next scene, Billy's big sack scene. Dude. This is one of the funniest, but we'll come back to it in a second. but because that's going to be my vote. Kirby's party at Kim's house. I like big party scenes.

Judd Nelson gets mad at McCarthy. Yeah, Kim needs LinkedIn. He's got to figure out that Kerbo and Billy are friends. Yeah, Kim, maybe move on. Jules and Billy in the car when he just gets over the top and really hurts her feelings and doesn't realize it. Then she does that you break my heart. Then again, you break everyone's heart. Get back in the Jeep and assume the mission.

position. You break my heart. Then again, you break everyone's heart. Devastating. And then my last one is Leslie moves out of Alex's apartment. Yep, dividing up the records. Yeah.

No Springsteen is leaving this house. No Springsteen is leaving this house. You can have all the Carly Simons. You got me those for Valentine's Day. Remember when there were still Valentine's around here? You ran out on this relationship. You take the consequences. I didn't run out on anything.

You ran out. You fucked Kevin. You fucked many. Nameless, faceless many. You could have the Billy Joel, just not the stranger. Have the Carly Simons. You fuck Kevin. You fucked many.

Nameless, faceless, many. Tough one. And then she leaves and Jedd Nelson goes, wasted love. God, I wish I could get it back. He's completely out of control of this movie. My boat is for Billy's big saxine. There's no other question. I have a couple of others I would toss in there. I really, I enjoy the Kevin Leslie hookup scene, the confession in the apartment and everything. I think-

Are my part of your props? Yeah, am I part of your props? That's a good, good scene. I also, you know, like I mentioned before, I like the first scene where like Kevin and Curabo are hanging out at the apartment and talking about the meaning of life and then Billy comes in. He's like, I can't handle the little misses tonight. Can I crash? He's like 40. Yeah, right. He's 22. But there's really no competition. It is Billy Hicks and the new breed, Halloween night, just going for gold. And maybe the longest sax solo, the side of a love supreme.

So a lot of things I love about this. First of all, they're playing a song, which I'm guessing is called One Love because it's the only lyrics in the song. I think the song is called Billy Sack solo. Like those guys, if you're in that band, You're just like, Jesus Christ, are we just, we just standing around for you, man? Like, what is that? No, choruses. What love!

What love! And Billy's just like, just around midnight. It's basically, Billy's like, hey man, I'm the chef. Let me cook. Yeah. It's my, it's Billy Hicks and the play. So can we talk a little bit about his musical career just for now? I mean, I was going to kind of bring this up a little bit later, but I think, you know,

the unanswerable questions section of this podcast is essentially all tied up and what happens to these people. But when you watch this movie up into the point of the Halloween night party, I didn't get the, I mean, I know he gets in a car accident in the first scene with his sax and he seems to care about his sax, but like, is he a musician? Like, did you get the impression that Billy was trying to make a go of it with music? It kind of comes and goes. He's a good enough musician that he's in a band where he's Billy Hicks and the new breed. Yeah. So he's obviously good.

I don't have a feeling at Georgetown that maybe it was his number one thing he had going. It seems like mostly he was fathering children and playing rugby. Yeah. He can't really figure out what to do, it seems like. Yeah. Here's the thing that's hilarious to me. In the Lost Boys. Yeah.

There's a whole band, totally homoerotic band scene where they're all. the crowd watching this huge muscle guy playing the sack. So Schumacher in the span of four years has two scenes in movies that are kind of out of place.

Revolve around like long sack solos which makes me wonder if this was like a weird fetish of his. I don't know if there are other movies. How much of this is you know this time period better than I do because you remember it more clearly, but like was Clarence Clemens

just that big, where we all just like the sacks is the thing? No, because Eddie and the Cruisers comes out two years before and that has a crucial sax guy. In that movie, that's basically based on Clarence Clemens. So maybe you're right. Maybe it is like a Clarence Clemens influence. All I know is at no point in my life did a friend ever say to me, hey, let's go to this bar tonight. They have a great sex player. Yes. Yeah. That's never happened. No, I mean, I leave bars, I leave bars when trivia starts. The idea of walking into a bar and being like, some guy is playing bar rock, but he's going to solo the entire time while these poor bastards on street stage are like,

what? It's like for 10 minutes. And then he has that one thing where he, where he finishes saxole and then he tries to engage the crowd and he's like, let's rock. And he starts doing this clap thing. It's so bad. It brings me so much joy. And then his ex-wife, or is, I guess, a strange wife comes in with a date, who is the most 80s, dumb-ass-looking dude.

It's fucking Hollywood from Top Gun, man. He comes in with Whit Hewley. Is that who that is? Yeah. That's the Joey Pants, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's his first role.

To have a fight outside the bar, it's great. That is a great five minutes. I don't know why one loved to make it. What's age the best? Not the sax player. Great opening credits we mentioned, the music we mentioned. The soundtrack, this is the first soundtrack ever written by David Foster. Yeah.

Who went on to make a cajillion dollars and be featured in Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. He also co-wrote the St. Elmo's Fire song with John Parr, true or false. That was the number one song in America, true or false. Oh, true. It was fucking true. It was the number of time with like Prince and Huey Lewis. Sidney Lopper or Bruce Springsteen. But that was also a time when, like, if a song was in a movie,

it was, like, insanely popular. I think it's funny that the movie's called St. Elmo's Fire. They hang out in St. Elmo's Fire. Unironically, a song called St. Almost Fire, man, emotion. And Rob Lo gives a speech about St. Elmo's Fire. But nobody ever could. And nobody's ever like, hey, man, this is weird, man. We go to St. Elmo's Fire to drink.

And this song's called Sin Amos Fire. It's just not acknowledged. Another one's age the best. Jay Moore's Andrew McCarthy impersonation, which was basically ripped off from this movie and everything Andrew McCarthy does in this movie. And Jay Moore dined on that. I'm going to say for 15 years, it still makes

me laugh. I love her man, with the bulletin and the eyeballs, all that stuff. Another it's age the best. Great title. Cinema's fire is a good title. And the ironic thing is Columbia Pictures hated it. Apparently they sent a 35-page memo listing all of their issues with the pro's title. Do they have any alts?

Yeah, two alternatives. Sparks? Like taps or whatever, yeah. This is crazy. The real world. Oh, that probably would have been pretty good. But St. Elmo's Fire is just like indelible. It's great.

I also like when they, you know, one of my favorite things is when they work the title into the dialogue in the actual movie. Right. It gives a whole St. Elmo's Fire speech. Like, what do I love more than that? That's another what's age the best for me. I'm going to read this speech to you. This is him and Jules. We probably should have put this in most rewatchable seeds.

I said Jules' rescue, because I like all this stuff on the fire escape too, and Alec hanging Kevin over the fire escape. Jules tries to commit suicide by air conditioning and cold weather. Billy says, this isn't real. You know what it is? It's St. Elmo's fire. The electric flashes of light that appear in dark skies out of nowhere. The sailors would guide entire journeys by it.

But the joke was on them. There was no fire. There wasn't even a San Elmo. They made it up because they thought they needed it. Keep them going. But things got tough just like you're making up all this. We're all grown through this. So there's a thing.

I like movies when they're like, we're all going through this. It's like, what are you going through? Jules has a Coke problem. The other one, you're just trying to find a job. Like, you're not like fighting in Vietnam? I, the speech is the speech. I think Robbolo has been public about feeling like that's a pretty embarrassing monologue in retrospect.

the other thing that's wrong with it is that Billy only has seven active brain cells and most of it is dedicated to saxophone and siring children. So the idea that he could put together this analogy for Jules that was rooted in nautical history is such bullshit. The last time we saw them together, he was putting her car keys in his pants and saying, come and get him. Yes. And now he's Baltair.

Speaking of Jules, another what's age the best. Jules! Oh, God. What are my favorite 80s characters? Hands down. Just the best. You could have spun off Jules into a TV show, a sequel. Everybody either was Jules or knows of Jules.

Like, especially out of college, like living a little fast with the credit cards, partying a little hard. I got to say, nothing's better than knowing of Jules. I knew a couple of jewels. I didn't even dated a jewels. Jules are great. Good memories. It's almost like in rounders where it's like if you can't spot the jewels in the first five seconds,

it means you are the Jules. My kryptonite, basically for my entire 20s was I was always all in on Jules. Yeah. I was in the, if you're Jules, you probably still have like outstanding credit cards from like, banks that have since closed.

Like you have a fleet bank credit card that's like Maxed out because some girl went crazy at Pier 1 furniture behind your back. She had the quote, this is the 80s, I'll baff him for a few years, get his job when he gets his hands caught in the vault, become a legend, do a black mink ad,

get caught in a sex scandal, retire a massive disgrace, write a huge bestseller and become a fabulous host of my own talk show. Turns out that is a career plan. That is an actual, yeah. By the way, she probably, if you did the sequel,

she probably would be like a co-host on the view now, right? Or she would be Chris Jenner. She'd have a whole family of reality stars in a billion dollar empire. I love jewels. Any other what's age the best? Alec and Leslie's apartment. I think all the apartments have aged the best. I was just like, I also just marvel at like

the J. McInerneyness of it where it's just like empty loft that they are refurbishing. the weird like full wall size poster of or like wallpaper but it is also like that was a painting I thought it was a photo of a marathon yeah I thought it was a photo of painted it because she's allegedly an artist she's an architect because she's like painting in one of those scenes yeah I think she I think and also like I just think that in general like that just felt very like accurate for the time of like that and I also just love that when they do that argument when they break up about the pretenders and Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel records,

it's so perfect because like back then people really did have like just 20 records. And if you broke up, you were like, no, I'm going to have to go buy Born in the USA again. If you take it, that sucks. Like I'm not just going to like get it on Spotify, but like the dividing up of CDs and books that have kind of accumulated at each of your apartments was a real thing in breakups. It was almost like a fantasy draft. Yeah. Like you get the first pick.

I get two and three. You get four and five. And you just kind of break them up. The only other thing I said is age of the best, which is going to be controversial, is the way Billy Hicks wears ties. I think we should bring that back. I think I think humorous tie wearing is ready for a comeback. Tie around your head. Tie over your shirt, kind of loosely just thrown off to the side.

I'm with you. Okay. I think Billy's hair is age the best and the worst. The wet look is in. So I have my answer for what's aged the best is jewels, but I have a special spin-off care category just for this, just for this episode. Because one of the things that's age the best is the exchanges.

We mentioned the three-year chairman of Georgetown Younger, moving up, Curbo. There's other great exchanges. I'm going to give you a couple more. All this time, I was afraid you would find out that I wasn't fabulous. That's cool all this time. I was afraid you would find out that I was irresponsible.

You ever feel like you're not accomplishing anything at all? I think I'm in touch with that emotion. We won't ever remember. Oh, we won't even remember this tomorrow. Kevin, it is tomorrow. I always thought we'd be friends forever. Yeah, well, forever got a lot shorter all of a sudden. Marriage is obsolete.

Dinosaurs are obsolete. Marriage is still around. Haven't you heard of the sexual revolution? Who won, huh? nobody. This movie has this pitter-patter. Yeah. That's just great. What's your favorite exchange of all those exchanges? Mine is still moving up, Curbo. I think forever got shorter. That's also was taken and put in this song I really like by this band Brett Braid. So some of these lines of dialogue actually

became like kind of like pop culture reference points. I think there's another one about where Jules is like I never thought I'd feel so old at 22 or something like. that I really like. So yeah, I agree with you. All the little exchanges are really good. What's age the worst? Mayor Winnihan's close. I don't know what's going on. I don't know why they dressed her like she was pregnant. Yeah, but it, first of all, all right, if she's pregnant, do they have to dress her like she's a 1950s librarian? Wendy just seems like a really nice person who gets caught up with this group of people. It's inexplicable why she's dating Billy. and it's really weird that the big thing is that this woman's overweight

because it's just it's just an odd plot point. Also inexplicable that he would like her or that he would like anybody. First of all, he has a wife. She knows he has a wife. Every bar he goes to he's trying to bang whoever. And then he's got this this hot thing for this woman who dresses like a 1956 librarian who has no personality. It's completely inexplicable.

I have no idea why this is in there. I think she's miscast. Everything about it doesn't work. Speaking of not working, Andrew McCarthy, God bless him, is really miscast in this movie. Now,

he's also perfectly cast because he's the unintentional comedies through the roof, but I just... So you don't buy him as like the cerebral bookish smart ass or what? Because I like him in this movie.

His smoking is horrific. You can tell he learned to smoke like the day before they started filming the movie. Like he's doing the Tom Cruise smoking practically. The singing Aretha Franklin, him trying to complain about everything, like he's the Hunter S. Thompson disciple,

he just hates everything. It's like, I knew these people in college and in grad school. They were not like this guy. You always get really edgy about English majors. I feel like this is Troy and Reality Breits all over again. That's my point. This character is Troy and Reality Bites.

And he's not Ethan. I can't hate. definitely thought I was both of these guys, so I'm not going to get bad at it. Yeah, but isn't Ethan Hawke as Troy a much better version of this character? Well, the thing in reality bites is Troy is friends with a bunch of people that you would kind of expect Troy to be friends with. Whereas Kevin, it's not really explained why Kevin is like friends with any of these guys or Kevin or they're friends with Kevin. Or why they like him? What's likable about him? I can't think of one thing. So he hasn't slept with a woman in a couple of years because he's so in love with

Leslie that he just can't bring himself to do it, right? Right, yeah, but none of them have figured out that he's in love with Leslie. Like, every time he's around her, he's like a fucking puppy dog. No red flags? So, and do you also get the impression that Alec is constantly cheating on Leslie or only just recently? Oh, I think it was constant. Okay.

So Kevin is just like sitting on that one. So I'm going to step on recasting couch, which I was going to do later. I'm going to do it now. I think Danny Jr. who is up for one of these roles are a bunch of them. I think if he's Kevin, it's a better movie. I like Andrew McCarthy in this. This is interesting.

I didn't expect this. I like Andrew McCarthy. I think him as Kevin is just, it's just a miscast. There are a couple of plot points in this movie that are so egregious that Kevin doesn't really register for me. Like, I just think for me, like, the Dale Kerbo thing has just aged so much more worse than anything that happens with Kevin. Okay, let's do it.

So curb is a stalker. Yeah. Straight up. I think even 15 years later, he's arrested probably two incidents before he even gets to the ski house. It gets weird every year. It was pretty weird even when the movie came out and it's gotten weirder since. When he shows up to the black tie event covered and coming out of the rain and just

like. It looks like Buffalo Bill. Yeah. And she's like, hey, let me bring him back to my apartment. And then he somehow storms out. He finally go back to her apartment. He storms out. He's just a lunatic.

He sniffs the pillow, the roommate sees. Like, he's a maniac. And then finally he throws her a whole party, leaves the party to drive three hours in his friend's car to go to a ski house after trying to break through the phone line for four hours. And it's just a lunatic. He's a maniac. He's a maniac.

also doesn't have any other plot. So it's like all we know about him is that he's like in law school tries to get Rob Lowe out of that first DUI charge, then becomes a maniac, switches jobs five times and at the end just goes back to law school, right? Right. There's a great scene though when after they bail in the whole, the first we watchable scene we mentioned. After they bail Rob Lowe out and the boss is like, hey, where were you? You got to tell me when you leave work. And Estabeds just immediately takes somebody's order, like two minutes later, like nothing happens. Doesn't ask whose table is too. The best part is like when they do at the Billy Hicks and the new breed night, he takes

Felicia and her date's order. He's just like, I'm just working here. Can I get you a Daccarry? We don't need to belabor the stocking, but it's just incredibly dumb. Dale's understanding boyfriend at the ski house is also what's aged worse to me. Like that guy's like, what the fuck is going? Are you dating this guy? No, I'm not dating him.

He's just been stalking me for a few weeks. How about I beat the shit out of him? Why is this guy here? The guy's like, hey, man, can I get your blanket? Hey, got your car started. No boyfriend has ever been this cool. Ridiculous. Last one for what's age is the worst.

You mentioned the apartments in the what's age the best. It's also the what's age the worst because these people are 22. Apparently, Schumacher said, I felt that a lot of youth movies were given a cheap production because what did it matter? They were just youth movies. And I thought, why not give young people movie stars with great clothes and great sets and great cars? Glamour is very much a concept of mine. It's a what age or worse and it's a what age is the best.

Like a lot with this movie. The pendulum swings, right? Like we want very realistic depictions. We want hyper kind of fantasized depictions. Well, what's age of worse is Kirby's entire plot? Kirby's, I would also say I don't really understand why Jules is the fulcrum of the drama at the end of the movie, but we spend way more time with Wendy's family. Like the amount of time we spend with like Martin Balsam and like what Wendy's doing and whether or not Wendy's car means that she also has to do this. It's just like, why are we spending so much time on this?

The 10 episode Netflix version of this movie, you're basically fast forward in the Wendy episode. Yeah. They're like, oh, this is the Wendy episode? I'm just going to fast forward the episode. Is there another Jules episode? Can Jules do cocaine with some Saudi Arabians? All right, casting, what ifs? They interviewed hundreds of people.

Anthony Edwards and Leah Thompson apparently came close. Schumacher had to push hard for the three breakfast club people. Emilio wanted to play Billy. That would have been a disaster. Had to settle for Kirby. See Thomas Howe audition for Kirby. Didn't get it. He was too young.

Ironically, Rob Lowe was only 20 when he was cast. as Billy. Robert Downey Jr. considered for the role of Billy, but they settled on Roblo after three auditions. I love Roblo as Billy. Robert Downey as Billy is pretty good.

That's like a classic real life. It's funny how many of these people could have played multiple roles in this movie. I still think Robert Downey as Kevin is the sweet spot. It's also interesting that Emilio plays kind of like, I mean, I like his,

character in Breakfast Club. It's well done. Then does Kerbo, who's essentially the guy from breakfast club like five years later. Yeah. And then winds up probably having one of the better careers out of this whole group, just in terms of being in young guns and that being a huge hit and making his own movies and stake out. Yeah, exactly. So it's interesting that he had the less flashy stuff to do, but winds up like kind of coming out on the other end. Charlie Sheem was probably a tiny bit too young, but easily could have played. He also apparently didn't show up to his audition. He could have played Alec.

Yeah. Yeah, he basically does in Wall Street. You mentioned Demi Moore had to go to rehab before shooting. She got cast because Schumacher was in a bungalow on the Columbia Pictures lot with John Hughes and Cameron Crow in the same office building. And Demi Moore was auditioning for a job. John Hughes movie, something bad happened and she stormed out.

Shumacher saw her walking out, storming off, and was like, who's that? And they chased her down. They were like, are you a model? She's like, no, I'm on General Hospital. Full disclosure, I was still watching General Hospital. When Demi Moore was on? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. She was great. Huge thumbs up. Anyway, when she went to rehab, they talked about taking Jenny Wright, who played Rob Lowe's. moving her into the role of Jules but then Demi Mora got her shit together there's also some Madonna stuff

I don't know what to believe but they did a lot of generals where they did Laura Branigan and Madonna and Madonna had been talked about coming in if DeMie hadn't gotten clean I think that they had thought about like trying to bring Madonna in to play Jules or be somebody in the movie

it does sound like essentially we've done a couple of these mid-80s ensemble movies and it literally sounds like there were about 40 actors and they all went up for the same eight parts in these movies. So any one of the casting what ifs, they're always just like, here's the 10 people who went

for this movie and here's the one they chose. Madonna as Jules, does that do anything for you? I'm not mad at it. It's a good runner up. I think Demi Moore at that point in her career was perfect. But Madonna, that would have been, that would have been, the only thing is I don't know if Madonna could have pulled off the Jeep scene with Billy. Because that might be some of the best acting to be more has ever done.

and I don't know if Madonna could have pulled that off. Yeah. Yeah. There's also a couple of, there was rumors that Linda Hamilton was up for one of the roles, which I thought was pretty cool. I was always wondering, like, who she would have played. I guess she might have played Jules.

She could have played the always shady part. Yeah, I guess so. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award, a couple nominees. This is a field of one. It is definitely Whit Hubeley. I have two more nominees. Okay.

All right. So I have the hooker because I know we've seen her somewhere. And Maria Westford. Yeah, she was in the Shield. She was in Friday. She's a, she's a legend. Yeah. Matthew Lawrence, who played Ron the Gay Guy. Oh, yeah. Same year, Eddie in the Cruisers, he plays Salamato, huge role in say a cruisers, eventually settles on 902 and O as David Silver's dad. Yeah. And has a nice little run as Mel Silver. keeps coming back and I think he's now like a poker guy. Does Mel Silver, is he, does he, who dies in a boat explosion on 902.1. No, that's, that's Dylan's dead. Okay, my bad.

Jacqueline Kay. Yeah. They, Ron, the gay guy, I don't know why they did this, but they made him the most, maybe this is a bit 80s thing. They made him the most stereotypical gay guy ever the first time we meet some Demi Morris trying to set up Kevin with their game. He's got like a strawberry dackery in his. hand, yeah.

Crazy drink in the middle of the day. Every time we see him, it's kind of hard to believe nobody. Can you imagine living next to Jules? Oh my God. Like the things that were happening at like 3.30 in the morning there, where it was just like. Her asking if she could borrow a vacuum at 3.45 a.m.

All right, so you're going with Hubley. Absolutely, man. Okay. Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for best overacting. Jen Nelson's No Springsteen is leaving this house scene We could almost transfer the award to him I think I think you could you could also make the argument for When Billy sits down with Felicia after he goes back to college for the day

And he's just like you'll see I'm gonna make a go of you know like Don't you quit on me Yeah don't you quit on me He said he'd take care of me and melody Don't you give up on me We could probably still get an annulment No. Yeah, and I also had a couple of Emilio Estevez moments with the calling the roommates.

But I think Jed Nelson, no Springsteen leaving this house. That's it. Dan Waiter's a word. Interesting. So we have our guy, our guy from Top Gun. I have Anna Maria Horstford for this. I have, I have her being like lots of people come to me for love. And it's a secret.

She's great. Wendy's mom. The fat naked guy in the hospital when they go to get Billy in the hospital. Yeah, silent but deadly there. Just a complete fat naked guy, which see his back. And then I got to say, I think Andy McDowell is eligible. She's in like four or five scenes. She looks great.

You could totally see why he'd be in love with her. And it went on to launch her career. So I'm not against her being a nominee, but I'm with you. I think it's the hooker. Probably a 14 or a 15 seed here for this award is, Tommy Hodges, Senator Bancroft's guy. It's like fucking smoking a pipe in the back of Salem was fire, yeah.

All right. Recasting couch. Here's what I have for to recast the Merri-winningham part. I wanted somebody who is era-specific who would be a little bit better looking. Just put it on the table. But also maybe could play, you know, whatever. Daphne Zaniga.

coming off your thing we get another brunette in there because Demi Moore's got lighter hair and maybe she could play the I'm a little, my parents are a little overbearing but I still have a connection on Roblo. I like that.

What about Justine Bateman? I think she's too famous. In 1985, that's still one of the four biggest shows. I think she's kind of overpowers. I had two. Yeah. For Leslie? Yeah.

Helen Slater. Oh. Just a kind of like real 80s had to know is all I'm saying. Fair is fair. When are we doing the legend of Billy Jean? Tell me, you named that. That's a one for us. It's one text from you and we're doing it.

It's fair. It's fair. Helen Slater as Leslie and Linda Fiorentino as Jules. Oh. Yeah. That's pretty good. coming off vision quest. Yeah.

I, Legend of Billy Jean foreshadows the entire internet. Bill, don't waste the take. Don't waste the take. Pump up the volume creates podcasting.

Legend Billy Gene creates the internet. Those are my takes. Half-Fice internet research. The street that the San Elmo's bar is on is on the universal back lot. Two or three buildings to the left is the Hill Valley Clock Tower

from back to the future. Oh. That's cool. It was based on the Tumes, popular watering hall with Georgetown students, which I have been to. You have? Does it look like a Fridays?

When I was going there, Joe has moved there after college. So we started going there to visit him at least once a year, 91-92 range. It was like, let's go to the bar that they made San Omar's on. And that was like kind of the hook for it. But did it have like a lot of chotchkees like that?

Like the way... Very similar. Okay. The cast hung out. We mentioned that. It seemed like there was a lot of parting with the five. Like a lot. Geez, really?

Like, a lot. And Estevez and DeB more got engaged. Yeah. And they made wisdom together, which he directed, and then it bombed and she broke up from him. The Georgetown would not permit filming, so they had to use the University of Maryland. But there's a great story from the book I mentioned by Susanna Gore, which is a really fun. I recommend it on iBooks, where Schumacher was told by a priest that they couldn't shoot the film there. So according to the book, he asked the priest, excuse me, father, because they'd film the exorcist there.

Excuse me, father, but isn't this the institution where a film was made where a prepubescent child masturbates with the crucifix and says, your mother sucks cox in hell? taken aback but without missing a beat the priest responded yes Mr. Schumacher but in the Exorcist God wins over the devil which does not seem to be the case in your movie

did you really get the does that your takeaway from the Exorcist this was Joel Schumacher's take that was a we got to do Exorcist A plus anecdote right there yeah that is unbelievable yeah

so Roblo Imagine thinking that San Amos fire is more evil than the exorcist. I love it. I support the take. Lowe had courtside tickets to the Lakers and a new Porsche. And Demi Moore lived at the then new truck tower. Two things I found. The shower door coming off in the Shidi McCarthy sex team was an accident.

The reaction was genuine. And then apparently she was. rattled by doing a pseudo sex scene. McCarthy said, this is all in this, this is Anna Gore book. Schumacher was mad it wasn't passionate of. He screamed out, your fucking action!

McCarthy remembers Ali burst into tears and I just stood up naked and said, what the fuck is the matter with you? And Joel said, oh, I'm sorry. Says McCarthy, I mean, I love Joel, but it was not the appropriate thing to say. would probably be a bigger deal in 2020. Rob Lo did learn how to play sax for the movie in case you were running.

Although there are moments in the Billy Hicks thing where you can tell he is not playing saxophone. And then McCarthy said, quote, as close as many of the members of the gang were, oh no, this is in the book. It says as close as many members of the gang where one young St. Elmo's cast member felt out of sync socially from the others. Quote, Andrew McCarthy, I always felt sort of apart. I never felt any kind of great camaraderie. I think I went out once or twice

with the guys in L.A. Andrew McCarthy, bad hang. What was the Kevin the Kevin Clark game? Great hang, tough hang. Wait, but you're like, let's take a step back. Would you now rather hang out with Andrew McCarthy or Judd Nelson? Oh, Jedd Nelson. Yeah, it's stories in his different movies.

I think Danny Jr. is a win in that role. Apex Mountain. Roblo? I think it's about last night, following year. I'll go this. Okay. Judd Nelson, I say yes. Coming up, Breakfast Club, Benis does this.

You're thinking he's an A-Nister. Yeah, I mean, I think the peak went down, but yes. Andrew McCarthy, I'm going to say weekend at Bernice. Or Manikin, yeah. Demi Moore, no way. Which does raise an interesting question of what was her apex? Definitely wasn't a few good men as Joe Galloway. Was it G.

G. I. Gene. Did that movie make money? But I think it was like when she was like she could star in an action movie. What about her making striptease and breaking the bank for what somebody bombed? Yeah, I guess it would probably I mean, I thought that movie stopped.

But her signing the striptease contract probably her Apex. Okay. It sets a new record for female actresses. Ali Sheedy, I'm going to say yes. Yeah, I guess so. Emilio Estevez, no. probably young guns are

staying out one of those young guys John Parr yes all right this is super car dorky I only let this side out a couple times in the rewatchables but the 19882 G

CJ7 I'm going to say yes Apex Mountain what an incredible car that was so that's the one that they go driving around Georgetown and pick everybody up and when it's seven people and all that stuff

all right this is a big one Georgetown Apex Mountain because you have this movie and you have Patrick Ewing winning the title this year. This was in my unanswerable questions.

Do you think Patrick Ewing likes this movie? No. Okay. Do you think John Thompson has seen this movie? No way.

No. Do you think they could have thrown in? Like just a reference. Just a reference. Like if you went to Georgetown in 85, you would be obsessed with Georgetown basketball. mentioning like Reggie Williams.

David Wingate, right? Like, it's in, yeah. By the way, I should mention when we talked about Perfect Storm, I was mad there was in a Red Sox game. Apparently there's a sneaky moment where they say it's October when they film Perfect Storm.

Got an email from a friend of mine about it. So they should have been showing Celtic games in the bar. Perfect Storm. In this case, they absolutely, somebody, Kirby, I think Kirby was our guy for this. He should have had like the Ewing poster or the Ewing jersey.

Do you think, or you think, or you think Andrew Kevin was like, no, we need more room for my Woody Allen poster. Kevin was a douche. I hated people like Kevin. My finals for movie characters I wouldn't want to hang out with. It's like Kevin and Troy from Reality Bites by one seeds. I just hated people like that. All right, picking nets.

How do you lose all your possessions because of a cocaine problem? Like, do cocaine dealer? It's like, I'm going to take that bureau. No, she's overextended on her credit cards, man. cocaine guys, cocaine dealers are not like, hey, we're repossessing your couch. But she had furniture and by the end of it, there's no... But she bought it all

on credit and then, because she was, because remember Kevin's like, how are you... Yeah. Not the cocaine dealers, though. The bank did. They repode every piece of furniture she bought. Yes. Have you ever heard of this happening ever at any point? Yeah, people get their shit ripie possessed when they don't pay off their bills. Every single thing. They're like, hey, that $10 poster, we're taking that.

I think, first of all, I think it was more. That poster of Billy Idol looked like a art installation. And second of all, I think that once you engage in that contract, like you really have any claim to anything. I don't agree with that, but I'm just saying, I think she was probably like $80,000 in credit card debt. If that poster, a friend of year is in L.A. bought that poster an auction.

They just gave it to and you brought that home for your wife. And you're like, we're putting this up in the living room. What's her reaction? The Billy Idol poster. I think she would go with me on my art. I think I think I could get away with it. I think I could get away with it. What about you?

Yeah, I thought it was a really cool poster. I really liked it. I didn't like it as much as the other one or the runners. Yeah, the runners, I could talk my wife and do like right now. But the Billy Idol thing, I think I would have to have an explanation for it. If I could have anything from this movie, I would have the Jeep. More picking nits. We mentioned Billy and Wendy what the fuck was happening.

I have a sequencing thing in the night of Kirby's party at Kim's house. Sure, sure. Okay, so all of these things happen the same night. Kirby leaves and drives three and a half hours to a ski house. Billy and Jules take off and he drive, but all the bars are closed. Ali Sheedy and Kevin leave the party because of the huge fight. go back to his house, have a huge drunk life talk,

and have sex and break the shower door, and then Judd Nelson shows up. I don't know what time of night that was. Judd Nelson shows up in the morning, I think. I think Judd Nelson's been out all night and comes over at like 8 in the morning, 7 in the morning. But you're right. There's a couple of...

The same thing happens at the beginning of the movie where Billy gets a DUI, gets bailed out of prison and they get to St. Elmo's fire that night. So it must have been day drinking. While it's still peaking. Yeah, but can you bail somebody out of prison in 40 minutes like that?

So Kirby has the party at Kim's house. I'm thinking it starts like 8.30, 9 o'clock. Yeah. Right? That's a nighttime party. Sure. It's going at least three, four, five hours. Right.

Everybody's on cocaine. You know, there's no slowing down. People are flying. I mean, you could argue it starts at 10 o'clock. And then I, it's the longest night. It's one of the longest nights in movie history. It's a 14-hour night somehow. Kirby's driving three and a half hours.

And where was he driving? I think the Poconos. I can't tell, though. I think the Poconos. Best quote. There are several quintessential moments in a man's life, losing his virginity, getting married, becoming a father, and having the right girl smile at you.

I'm not going to live to another year of finding you. Do you agree with this? in my own personal life No, do you agree with that quote? No, I think that there are some other things that happen. Like winning a Super Bowl? Beating Tom Brady for your only Super Bowl? That's right.

Another best quote. Never trust a woman who says she isn't angry. It ain't a party until something gets broken. You break my heart. Then again, you break everyone's heart. That's the iconic quote. And if you're on my page two archives from way back 2001,

I wrote a whole piece about Terry Glenn built around the character built around the character of Billy Hicks That's like a fucking That's like a bill Like automated column machine It was I think I was a robot 2001

It was about how some athletes are destined to break your heart And I use the analogy of Billy Hicks In this movie Like Billy Hicks is just destined to break somebody's heart And how Terry Glenn And it was like the seven stages of Billy Hicks And how we hit them with Terry Glenn But it's insane. I was smoking a lot of pot back then. I have no defense. Wait, I have one more quote. I like, I enjoy Kevin saying I enjoy being afraid of Russia. It's a harmless fear, but it makes America feel better. Russia gets an inflated sense of national worth from our paranoia. How's that? Also a take that's lasted throughout the decades. Yeah, I never wanted any part of this guy. Could this be your made as a 10-episode Netflix show, please? Oh, absolutely. Why not? What are you guys doing?

Come on. Although nothing will happen because I don't think, I don't think people graduating college these days are as raucous as the people in this movie. I don't know. I think that you could make it pretty. Tophore Grace tried to make this as a TV show in 2009 or something like that.

The idea's been sitting there for 20 years, and I don't know why it hasn't been. It's super easy. I think you do a Cobra Kai style, like how they did karate kit. You modernize it. Maybe you have Jules' son as at Georgetown. You figure out a way to weave in...

What if you flip it? It's just like it's all the Dale Bieberman story. Yeah, I think I'm out on that one. She married that guy. That guy was a great guy. Dale Biberman locked that dude down. Probably unanswerable questions. Kevin's writing career?

So let's go through these people one by one and just say like what happened to them. All right. Kevin's writing career. We see the column he wrote. He's like, I got on the front page with the meaning of life. The first paragraph's about Pop Tarts. We know nothing else. So what kind of writer was he?

Do you think he went to like Russia with Matt Taibi? No, I was trying to think it's like, so do you think that he winds up being, having like a kind of Mitch album boom career where like he does a lot of like day to day stuff but then writes these almost like self-help books? Like he has a Tuesday in the park with Jules kind of thing? You don't think he's at Spin Magazine late 80s? Just rip it on REM's new album. He's like, you guys never listen to me about Billy Hicks and the new great breed. These guys were great. I don't think his writing career is successful.

He's too much of a loser. Alec clearly becomes a senator and then probably has some sort of scandal. Has to resign. I don't know what happens to Alice Sheedy. Billy's dead. Billy's dead. For sure. Billy's dead.

Jules, I think she called what was going to happen. I think she's hosting a team. Absolutely called her own shot. Yeah. Curbo, probably like an O.J. Simpson, kind of an ending for him. GM of the Nationals.

Until he has to leave for some sort of domestic violence thing. Who else is in this movie? Wendy, I don't care. I don't want to think about Wendy ever again. What about Whit Hubeley? Whit Hubey, I think he... He joins the Navy.

It becomes a pilot. Can you kill yourself by freezing a death in a Washington, D.C. apartment? I think that there is a lot of debate about this scene. No. In the 2020 version of this movie, which I think it should be a TV show, is Kevin Gay? Is that one of the twists? You've Kevin Gay, right?

But that's the only thing that's really like, I think that the love triangle is the thing that really like survives in this movie. That's the most interesting thing to me. And I think they don't do enough of a job to really play up Kevin and Alex's relationship. I mean, Jules says Kevin's like in love with Alec and like everybody's in love with Alec. But I kind of have a hard time understanding why Kevin wouldn't have pulled Alex card earlier if he was so in love with Leslie. Like, why is he, is he waiting because they were about to get him? So you don't think Kevin would be getting.

No, because I think that would take away the entire dramatic hinge of the story is whether or not Leslie is going to choose Kevin or Alec. Do we need that? I do. Yeah. It's just a fucking movie about jerks otherwise. Yeah. I love that love triangle.

Yeah. Who won the movie? Tough one. The backing band, the new breed. The new breed is not eligible. Who won the movie? The city of New York City, because they're going to get

those prime Billy Hicks years. Do you think Billy, like the idea that Billy thinks he's going to clean up his act in New York City in the mid-80s is fucking hilarious. Oh my God. He's like,

hmm, I really got to chill out. You know, I think what I'll do is go to New York City with a pack of Newport's and a saxophone in 1985. Well, you think they ripped that off for beautiful girls because it was the same kind of thing, right?

Like, man, don't give up the piano, man. You're great. You're great at this. It's like, well, what's going to happen? I think everybody's got a friend who hangs on to music for a long time. But yeah. I didn't even as talented as Billy. Who won the movie? I think there's two finalists.

I really enjoy Jed Nelson. I think every scene he's enjoyable in this movie, but I think it's Rob Lowe or to Me Moore. I think it's to me more. I think it's to me more. It's like a star-making performance. and she's really good in it. Has all of like the... She feels like a real person.

Feels like a real character. Have we ever had a tie before? Or is that a cop-out? No, we've tied before. We've disagreed. So I'm gonna go, do you want to say, Dimme Moore and Roblo?

I think they're co-winners, and then it pays off with about last night, which is a really good movie. And she's great in that. I think that's the best acting she's ever done in that movie. But I think watching this movie

all these years later, those are the two that jump out. low who we're about to hear from. You know, this is the best role he had. It's amazing he's 20. Usually they shoot over when they're, maybe about 22 years. Usually the person's like 35.

He's the exact age, right? Yeah, or pretty much. Or he's younger. All right, Chris Ryan, don't let her go, man. Forever got shorter, Bill. Don't let her go. I'll see you for Legend of Billie Jean, six-hour podcast.

Should we do Legend of Billy Jean and pump up the volume together? We're doing Pop Up the Vine this summer. I can't wait. It created podcasting. Our next movie, we're doing two this week. We're going to be doing swingers on Wednesday night, which is available on HBO Max.

If you have HBO Max, you can watch it ahead of time and join us. Looking forward to that. When we did a big oral history, I'm Grantland way back when, and look forward to mine on that. Chris Ryan, I'll see in a couple days. Thanks, Bill. 35th anniversary this month, say no most fire. Oh, boy.

35 years ago, this week. And with the passing of the great Joel Schumacher, our director, there you go. Joel was an amazing man, an amazing director, and really, really, you know, look, Coppola gave me a huge break. Joel Schumacher gave me the most iconic part I played in the 80s, and for sure that's Billy and Sinai almost fired. And they wanted me to play.

So that script was around. It wasn't the outsiders, but it was close in that the script was out there and every young actor wanted to be in it. It had this kind of buzz and everybody was auditioning and trying to do it. But I had already done movies. And I wasn't auditioning and didn't have to do any of that stuff. But everybody else in the movie was auditioning and doing it and getting the movie. And because they, you know, it wasn't being. like offered to me like the other ones were.

I didn't even know about it. But I'd heard about it. And then finally somebody was like, you should read this. And I read it and was like, oh, this part of Billy is really good. And my agent's like, well, I'll talk to the studio. And they talked to the studio and the studio wanted me to play the Judd Nelson part and did not want me to play Billy. In spite of the fact that I was at that moment kind of an it guy, they were like not having it. They were like, not interested.

Roblo, Billy Hicks? no. And so I had to go to Joel Schumacher and convince him that I could be a bad boy. So I got fucked up on beer. I brought a six-pack into the meeting. And by the time the meeting was over, I had the part. And it was one of my favorite movies I've ever done.

You know, I remember when the trailer was coming out for it, it had that great music that they would eventually use for NBA finals and stuff like that. They'd use like Lakers Celtics, and you would hear Brent Musburger being like, the Lakers thought after game three and you would just hear the same almost fire music. It had, you know,

the Washington, D.C., mid-80s, Georgetown. Yeah. The little foliage in October. And it was just, and it was all these actors that at that point, we knew all of them except for Mayor Winningham. But the other six, and a lot of them had been in movies together

in different movies. And it was a movie that, just made sense. And also, like, you know, people read out of college, I hadn't really seen that movie for a few years, you know? It was a movie that for some reason people were making. What happens after you graduate? What do you do? Yeah, it was truly, looking back in and now, it seems obvious, but it wasn't at the time. Nobody had done that movie. It's like the, you know, you've, you've had this great moment in your life. And now you're like, okay, now what the fuck? And are we still friends? And will we be friends? And what were our friendships?

predicated on. And, and look, Cinema's Fire has always had a little bit of a, like people make fun of it. There's a little bit of a hate watching thing because it's so 80s and a lot of it's really, really dated and that's all true. But underneath it, it's really about

stuff that has stood the test of time in spite of the fact that me and Hair Moose might not have stood the test of time. Your hair, you have an incredible trumpet scene in there? Or I'm sorry, Sax scene. I mean, you gotta love it.

That's how you know it's 80s is there's a saxophone solo scene. There's a band built around the saxophone player. It's like, just wait till you hear solos. You guys are going to go nuts. This guy's a star in waiting. It's just, yeah, it was, I was trying to do my version of Clarence Clemens from the East Street band. I was like, I ripped off every one of his moves, even how he, he strapped the horn around his back like a guitar strap. instead of putting it in front of them.

I just completely ripped that from the big man. Well, the things I loved about that movie that just weren't, and it's a little like the big show was like this too, which I think is a movie that's now thought of all these years later, probably a little more respectfully. But Big Chill, same thing. Like, hey, we all meant

really something important to each other for these four years. And now it's 10, 15 years later. And it's like, I barely know you guys anymore, but I still have this connection. And it was the same thing with St. Elmo's Fire, where it's like, yeah, we're in college, now we're all going different ways. We still have this connection. We still have this bond. And that's funny because when people ask me about the brat pack or the cast of the outsiders,

that's the answer. I would say, if you went to college with someone, if you were in a sorority or a fraternity and you did all those things and went through all of that stuff, the bratpac and those people and from those movies, they're my fraternity. When I run into Tom Cruise, he's my fraternity brother. It's what it is. It's like, I don't really know

what he's doing now particularly, and he doesn't maybe know what I'm doing. It doesn't make one fucking bit of difference where we were in the same frat. Well, that was the year the New York Magazine wrote the Bradpack piece, right? That's right. And that was on the cover.

That's how the, yeah. And it seems like some people have complicated feelings about that. I always like the Brad Pack, but I know there was a stigma to it that, I don't know. Do you think ultimately it was a good thing, a bad thing, or both? Ultimately, it was a good thing, 100%. I think that it didn't engender us to any positive criticisms. I don't think that movie would have ever, or that genre would have ever been a critic's darling type of thing to begin with. but that piece

killed us with polite society in the media and there were there were certain members of the of the Braddock who are way, way, way more sensitive to that kind of stuff

and so it really was they didn't love it and hate it in fact hated it. There's a couple of folks who won't even participate to this day in conversations about 30 year anniversary of any of it. And I take a different view. I didn't love it when it came out

because it made us kind of look like unsurious party animal guys, which we certainly had that sigh, but we were, no one was more serious about their acting and their careers than we were. But looking back on it now, even then, like you, you were an audience member. You never got

the dog whistle underneath that you're supposed to not like these people. You're like, whoa, Bradpack, cool. And I think that's what most people felt. They're like, they didn't, they didn't realize that it was a, a winking kind of pejorative that the fancy New York, you know, beret-wearing critic bestowed upon us. I think regular people just thought, fucking cool. I wish I was in the Bradpack. That's how I felt as a teenager. To me, it just seemed like jealousy if people were picking apart, because I was just like, I like all the movies these people are making. So I don't know. I don't know why.

we're bitching about them. What, from a party standpoint, so you're coming into real prominence here, and this is the height of the cocaine era, the party era,

the whole thing, it's in LA. Nobody knows, nobody knows cocaine is really bad yet, although we have an idea, Belushi dies in 82. Thank you. This is what I keep telling everybody.

It's like, it's hard to imagine today that there was a moment in time where not only was cocaine, not bad for you, like it helped your thinking. It was good for you. It was good for concentration in your brain.

And wasn't addicting. I mean, it's not heroin, for God's sakes. And it was what successful people did. Yeah. It was honestly,

like today's wine, like I've been sober now 30 years. And I was never a wine guy. So I don't really know. But what I observed today is this sort of wine culture is what cocaine was. It's like in that we're all very refined and very successful. We're going to talk about our cocaine now.

And I assume, okay, it's from a dentist, actually. It's pure Bolivian ship. Like, it's the same rigmarole you hear at a restaurant. I was like, oh, this is an oaky Napa Valley. That's what it was. Nobody thought it was bad. We learned. We learned.

I think the Len bias thing in sports was the turning point for that. That was June 86. I remember where I was. Me too. Walking up to the lunch truck on a movie called Square Dance. And, you know, no one was a bigger Laker superfan. It was me and Jack Nicholson. We were the two.

Yeah. And somebody told me that he had passed away. And I thought, oh my God. And that was sort of the beginning of it. Yeah. And I think you look back now and you think, I've talked about this before in the podcast, but movies, TV, music, sports, and comedy. So you take those five things.

And you think of cocaine from 77 to 86 and everybody. And if you're successful, you're doing it, the same way like we drink coffee now. You know, and it's like, yeah, I have coffee in the morning. It's not bad for me. It's fine. They sold it. They sold it on every movie set. I was ever on, ever.

You think about that today. Can you imagine you're working for Amblin entertainment. You're on Jurassic World. Who's selling the blow? Oh, it's a camera department's doing it. Oh, okay, great, thanks. Crazy. But also, you understand, like, I also, people, things are so different.

were doing outsiders. Tommy Howell was, I think, 14. Yeah. And I was 17. And the legal drinking age in most states was 21. It might have been 18 in Tulsa. But either way, Tommy's 14. We would get in the van after work every day and they would give us a case of beer. Just different time. Yeah, it's pretty fascinating to look back on it. Obviously claim some victims. One other thing was saying, almost fire, you know, when you talk about the 8th, 80s how it's it's honestly one of the most 80s movies if you're just like we're sure pick pick five movies from the 80s and just and just use them as a way to explain the 80s to somebody who didn't get it i would probably they would definitely be one of the five there's like that crazy

emily west of us where he's basically stalks the india mcdowell's character the whole movie follows her three hours to the ski lodge and then it's like it's cool oh all right it's it Now would be, I think if somebody made that movie, that was a key point of the movie now, people would be like, what the hell is going on? This guy, this guy needs to be like he needs help. They get a restraining order. Immediately. After the first scene, and there'd be no story.