The Rewatchables - ‘The Color of Money’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fennessey have got too much balls and not enough brains to celebrate the 35th anniversary of Martin Scorsese’s ‘The Color of Money,’ starring Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio. Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Touchstone Pictures presents Paul Newman, Tom Cruise, in a Martin Scorsese picture. The Color of Money. We need to have a lot of fun. R. Starts October 17th at a theater near you. Check News. paper. All right, Chris Ryan is here. Shot Fantasy is here. We're going to talk about the color of money, 1986, 35th anniversary a couple days ago, actually. This is such an important A-List star movie. So, also one of the great torch passing movies. I was looking at the Quigley Pull. You guys know what the Quigoole Pull is, right? No. What's that? It's something Goldman used to be fascinated by. They used to put out this thing every year, the top 10 most marketable movie stars in America.

And if you go through, it's like 1969, Paul Newman won, Steve McQueen, too. And it's a nice little snapshot of who mattered from year to year. So Newman made it 13 times before 1986. From 67 to 75, he was 321-3-7-3-5. This is for nine years. It's almost like looking at NBAVP. There's this Bert Reynolds one where he's like number one for five years in a row. Cruz was number one in 1986 when this movie came out.

Newman was 10th. It was his last appearance. And I don't know if you guys remember this, but the narrative was like, Cruz is now taking the torch from Newman. What do you remember about that now, Sean? Well, I never participated in the Quigley poll, but I do think that you're right that it is completely a torch passing movie. And it feels like Newman almost handpicking a successor. But, you know, I think the whole purpose of like the two characters in this movie, show like what you need to be a young movie star and what you need to be an older movie star in the same way that what you need to be a young Fast Eddie Felston versus what you need to be an older Fast Eddie Felson is the lesson of the movie too. So it's like not just the

an obvious like torch pass in the in the business sense of the term. It's also just like there's something in the storytelling that perfectly matches that too. Chris, what's your relationship with Newman? Um, you know, this was probably the first time that I saw him if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly, because I think I watched the sting and things like that after I saw a color of money. So I was probably like 10 or 11 when I saw it, maybe like a little bit older. Like my dad had a copy of this around. But he was an old man before he was a young stud to me, you know, but he's got a fastball in both zones. You know what I mean?

Like even when he was a wily veteran and he's talking to Janelle about like, I'm going to come over and make you an omelet. I'm like, come over and make me an omelet. You know what I mean? he uh when i was growing up i felt like the three biggest stars were him and robert redford and bert reynolds and then i guess clean eastwood but i only knew paul newman from butch and from the sting and then slap shot was coming out when i was like seven or eight and it's like a hockey movie and paul newman's going to be in it it felt like the most important thing uh for a sports movie that could have possibly happen we still haven't done slap shot right no no that's another one we've saved

post-slap shot, here's what he does. When Time ran out, which I got to be honest, I didn't realize until I was looking at an IMDB. It's a volcano movie with Jacqueline Bissett. Never seen it. Never seen it either. I saw the trailer. I was like, I think I would probably watch this. Fort Apache the Bronx, which was polarizing at the time because people in the Bronx were protesting it.

Absence of Malice got nominated for an Oscar. The Verdict, my favorite Paul Newman movie, which we have not done yet. Harry and Son with Robbie Behn's. Benson two years later. Bizarre. It's just a bizarre casting of Robbie Benson all-time out kicking his coverage. He then another two years past. Newman directed that too. Right. So he handpicked Robin Benson. Does a much better job of handpicking this. But, you know, the big narrative of this movie was he'd never won the Oscar. He doesn't win with verdict, with the verdict. Loses loaded, just unfortunate. He's going against Hoffman and Tutsi,

and he's going against Ben Kingsley and Gandhi. It was a rough year. competitive. And now the narrative after this was like this was a makeup Oscar. I don't think that was the case. We'll go into that. But what's your take on that as a movie historian, Sean? Well, it's as usual, absurd that he did not win before this because he was so well known for taking on such complicated parts. Like, that's the one thing about him is he's really like the fusion of the Brando, De Niro, Pacino, you know, Hackman Duval, those sort of like those method actors, those guys who were considered actors first and movie stars second. And then there was the Eastwoods and the Bert Reynolds's who were movie stars first and actor second. Newman is one of the few guys

who basically fused both disciplines. You know, he was incredible to look at and incredibly compelling without speaking. But he was also a damn good actor with incredible training and had great taste. Like that's the thing is he's a part of so many movies. If you look at the, you know, the H movies, the HUD and Ombray and all that stuff throughout the 60s and early 70s, he was constantly in high-quality material and always looking for good filmmakers and good scene partners. And so it's kind of weird that it took him this long. I think you're right that the verdict seemed like such an obvious, like it's his time, but he just ran into this death trap, you know, this like brutal lineup of people that he was going up against. In 87,

when they give out the 86 Oscars, you know, it's a much weaker slate of contenders that he's going up against. Yeah, it's pretty rough. Chris, I don't know. if you would do this one over again with Dexter Gordon and Round Midnight, Bob Hoskins and Mona Lisa, William Hurt and Children of Lesser God are James Woods and Salvador. Those were other four picks.

Salvador is the one for me when we ever get around to it. Big Jimmy Woods guy. You've always been a big Jimmy Woods guy. Even today. Yeah. Big shot Jim. I think, well, it's just that

is such an 80s group of actors for one thing, the Billy Hurd shout there. But yeah, That feels totally right that Newman gets it. There's a weird platoon thing where I guess Charlie Sheen was the one they probably pushed for best actor because you have Berringer and Defoe both as best supporting actor. I thought Charlie Sheen was really good in Platoon. I actually think if you do that, it went over him.

But I think it was the right Oscar. The thing for me with Newman, I think it's such an important point what a good actor he was. And I think Cruz, who did kind of model himself after Newman in some ways, but ultimately went more of the Redford route, like, you know, big movies that he could be the star of. The guy who really seems more like Newman to me is Leo. And maybe, I don't know if Newman would have been in Titanic, but he made choices in the 50s and 60s

that at least had a commercial appeal. But the way Leo just very carefully picks his movies and his parts reminds me Newman. Is that wrong, Chris? No, and I think that the cruise point you make is really crucial because if you guys go back, back to, if you go back to the hustler, what do we know about Eddie Felson from the hustler? Is he's a loser? Like, we kind of think of him as this amazing, like, you know, it's like Roy Hobbs or

something coming back into a pool hall. It's not that. He's a drunk. He gets ahead of his skis. He gets his thumbs broken. Like, he's, he's more of an anti-hero. He's more of, like, kind of a rebel without a cause type character than he is, like, a golden god who's so good at this one thing and nobody can knock him off his square. And I wish Tom Cruise had played. And I wish Tom Cruise had played more parts like that. I wish Tom Cruise was like Jerry McGuire if Jerry McGuire wasn't right. You know, like what if he had

just played a couple of more parts like Maverick, if Maverick wasn't that good of a pilot? You know? Well, Magnolia was one of the few times he let himself do that, right? Yeah. Took a risk. Actually played a real character.

But yeah, I think the financial incentives and he was clearly driven to be the biggest star in the world. I mean, you look at, Cruz was number one in that Quigley pole, thing seven times. From 86 to 90, he was one, six, one, two, and four. He made the list 20 times at all. And he probably was a little more famous than Newman, as crazy as that sounds. Like he was a little more worldwide. You should start using Quigley poll as just like an argument

ender in all future rewatchables. You guys, just look at the Quigley and just, I don't want to hear it. I didn't even know if they have it anymore. But it was the thing. Like the box offices used to use it. And they would be like all of a sudden in 1977, Slice Stallone's the biggest star in the world. And he probably was, you know, based on this thing what the movie theaters thought. Newman was, he's a borderline kind of Mount Rushmore for the A-List guy you could put on a poster, at least for the last

50 years, I think. He's a product of his time, too. You know, this is a guy who went to Yale, studied at the actor's studio, was originally a stage actor. Did a little Strasbourg. He's trained under Strasbourg. He's different from Cruz in that way. Like, Cruz is

a product of his time in the go-go. go-go 80s when like box office megastardom was the way to become a well-known and successful actor, he went after that brass ring. But Newman was doing the thing that made sense culturally at that time. You know, Newman also really politically active, really like into the world at large, thinking about what his impact could be beyond just being a movie star. Cruz isn't really like that. You know, Cruz is not that kind of figure.

He had the same kind of like handsome, hard-charging, effortlessly charismatic thing that young Newman had. But aside from that, you get the sense that as people, they were not very similar. The cool thing about Cruz in this movie, though, is it's just, like, right before it gets out of control. So you allow Vince in this movie, Vincent gets, is kind of dim

and doesn't really have a huge, redeeming takeout scene. Now, obviously, the werewolf scene we'll talk about forever and everything. But, like, I mean, as the character and as, like, him being like, this is what my dad was like. And that's why I don't like it when you tell me what to do. It's like there's none of that. He's just a dimwit

who's really good at Poole. And, you know, the Master Antonio character, Mary Elizabeth, Massachusetts, Master Tontio character is way more of the brains of the operation in this movie.

I think two years later, Cruz is like, I got to have a thing in this movie. I got to have like my own trauma, my own origin, my own completion of the story. It can't just be me playing off of Paul Newman. Yeah.

I have to be the best. There's got to be something. Some sort of prize I win. He probably would have pushed for the last pool game to actually be shown. He wouldn't want to be hustling Eddie at the end. He'd be like, we got to go heads up. Yeah, beat him straight up, exactly. Hey, if you go through all the Newman Oscar nominees,

so he's nominated seven times before he wins in 87, the year before he wins an honorary reward, which I think they felt like they had to give him because he was never getting an Oscar. Sean, what's the biggest disgrace for you? Kat and the Hot Tin Roof, the Hustler, HUD, Cool Hand Luke, Rachel, Rachel, or absence of malice or the verdict. We already said the verdict, but those other six.

Was there anything egregious? Cool Hand Luke is the most iconic, I think, of all of those parts. I guess, like, let's look at the 68 Oscars. Didn't Sidney Potier won that year, though, didn't he? Oh, is that what it was. Yeah. So that was another, like, bad luck year, I think. What a competition.

No, it's not Sidney Poitier. It's Rod Steiger in the heat of the night, which is also, that's a whole other complicated conversation. about him being nominated and winning instead of Pottier, you know, that's a product of its time. But the lineup that year is actually absurd. It's Beatty and Bonnie and Clyde, Dustin Hoffman and the graduate, Newman and Cool Hand Luke and Spencer Tracy and guess who's coming to dinner?

And Rod Steiger wins, even though Rod Steiger isn't even giving the most important performance in that movie. That's pretty wild. That's why we have all these hashtags now about the Oscars, because shit like that was going on for 50 years. That's a rough one. It's very true. I think he could have won.

for any of those, though. I mean, he's dynamite. Like, a lot of those movies have not necessarily, like, absence of malice has not aged as well. You know, there's some stuff like that that maybe this story would have been told different. What's that one about? That one's never on. It's a newspaper one, right? It's about a newspaper in Miami and there's like, I believe it's a rape case and Sally Field is a reporter on the case. And the politics of that movie are a little bit more complicated. Ooh. The thing with a new cable channel of movies that are now problematic where it's like,

coming up, absence of ballast. Yeah. I mean, I think. think that he did make a lot of movies that you forget too. You know, you mentioned that little run in the 80s there. He was always working, you know? He wasn't, it wasn't all home runs, but the thing is, is if you get

five iconic parts, you get to live forever in the minds of movie fans. Well, shit, he had more than that, because one of the things I was going to ask you guys, I don't, I think you could make a case this wasn't one of his best eight movies. It might not be. Because he has, Kuhin Luke, he is Butch

Cassidy, which he did not get nominated for, the verdict, Hudd, Slapshot, Cat, the Houghton Roof, The Hustler, and a lot of people like Nobody's Fool, which I think is a good movie. But I think some people would at least have the argument there, but it's weird that this is the one he wins for. It's a little like the Pacino's scent of a woman thing. Now, I think he should have won,

but I think that's why people get thrown off with it because it wasn't one of his most famous performances. It wouldn't be one of the first seven you mentioned. I would put Harper on the long list, too, for my favorites of his movies, the Lou Harper Detective movie. I still think that this is better than, I think only Butch Cassidy,

Cool Hand Luke, the verdict and slap shot would come ahead of color money for me. It's funny that you guys aren't putting the sting on there because that's the movie I associate him most with but I think it's also his most easygoing performance. Yeah.

It's like he's just like, he's just cruising in that movie. Yeah, well, in my rig, I went on a Newman deep dive. I didn't, I don't know if we talked about this in the Jaws rewatchables that he turned down Quint. Hmm. Interesting. I don't think we did.

I don't feel like I knew that one because I was like, oh my God, that's talk about sliding doors. You could definitely hear him go shocks in the water. Like nice big beard. Yeah. You know what's funny is he would have been a good brodie, though. Because he's not, you know,

he's not like that much older. In 75 he was still making like drowning pool and towering inferno. That wouldn't have been so crazy. But Quint, to me is Robert Shaw. Like there is no, no one could replace Robert Shaw. It would have been a fun Newman role,

but I'm with you. We didn't talk about Scorsesey yet. Scorsese directed this movie. And you've talked about this on the big picture pod before. He has this stage where he's just kind of taking jobs for a couple years. This is a paycheck. This is a taking a job movie. There's some Scorsese touches in there.

I wouldn't put this in my top eight Scorsese directed things. But there's some flourishes in there. Where does it stand for you, Sean, in the canon? Well, it's weird because if you take it in the – Chris, I'm sure you agree with this. Like, if you think about it in the context of all the great and important films he's made, it's probably not in that top eight. But if you just let yourself experience it as a standalone thing, it's one of the most exciting

and entertaining movies he ever made. And it's a great sports movie. It's a great, like, grisly veteran bringing up the young guy movie. It's also just an incredible fusion of writer and director. Like, it's a director who really gets the writer and gets the writer's material. and you know he does all of his stuff but since the film is so confined everything is basically taking place in rooms

he's doing all that crazy like you know roll forward and zoom in at the same time shots on on the cue ball on balls breaking he's doing these whip pans all around the table it's not like he's doing it in a big open space where there's a gangster shootout or it's like in some

you know Tibetan monastery of some kind in the great halls it's a small movie with small ambitions, but he's using all of his tools to make it feel bigger. So I still think even though it's not one of his

quote unquote most important movies is genuinely one of his most entertaining. Yeah, I probably return to this one more than, you know, honestly, I've watched it probably more than Raging Bull. I watch it more than Last Temptation of Christ. I like, I love After Hours, so I watch that a lot.

But of the 80s movies, this is like a really, it's a really rewatchable one. Sean's point's right. Like, this movie is really nostalgic if your dad took you to bars in the 80s, I had a dad who on Sundays We would go to a bar down the street from where I grew up And we would go watch the Eagles

And he would give me like $4 and quarters And tell me to go play video games for a few hours And like it's just a lot of guys smoking With glasses of beer in front of them reading the paper While the Eagles were on And the Eagles were usually bad Aside from the Buddy Ryan yours But like this movie captures that feel of East

Well not East Coast but like winter climate bars pool halls dudes in in dark rooms and the whole idea that Scorsese can take a very confined space with not a lot of light and then just kind of like discover a whole world in there

is what makes him unique you know it's like all the coverage he's doing like where most directors would be like here's a shot of a pool shot here's one person's reaction shot here's another person's reaction shot he goes pull shot whip pan to one guy and then tracking over to another guy

it's like all this flexing and swagger that he does that's so amazing and yeah it was a one for them You know, this was a, this was a pay job. It was like a get me out of movie jail job. And in that way, the movie has multiple authors. There's Scorsese. There's obviously Newman with the legacy of the Felsen.

And then there's Richard Price because I feel like the movie itself has like a lot of literary like overtones to it. It's really written. And those three guys worked on this script so much. You can tell everything's been interrogated and all the dialogue is just like tuned to like race car speeds. And it seemed like Newman was incredibly hands-on, which I didn't know until doing the research. Like this was, he basically cast it. He hired the director. He badgered Richard Price to fix stuff, make stuff better, make stuff better, make stuff better.

The way both you were talking about how Scorsese directed this, this is going to be weird, but it reminds me a little of panic room with Fincher. Absolutely. Where it's like, it's kind of the challenge for Scorsese was, how do I make this intro? interesting. What flourishes can I add to these like weird mundane dark pool walls basically? And Fincher was like, all I have to work with is this townhouse. And I'm just going to do some crazy shit. We're going to follow the inside of a wall as we go through some cable. And he just was flexing in a lot of the same way. I, what was it? A few months ago, Chris, I texted you.

And I was like, I just watched Color Money. That movie's amazing. Kind of hoping you'd say, Oh yeah, it's amazing. I think it's like weirdly one of the most rewatchable movies he's made, even though it's, I don't think like, I don't think you would even necessarily know it was a Scorsese movie unless you were like a giant film buff. I don't think it hurts that it's very much a sports movie for middle-aged people. Like it is a movie that I did not get when I was a kid at all.

I didn't understand the idea of losing your fastball, of trying to get it back, of being confronted with younger people coming up in the world, with things that you might have gotten right in your life, things you might have gotten wrong. It's like how I feel with Ben Solac, like hearing him rattle off every defender on 32 NFL teams. That's right.

I was like, Eddie. I'm like, I go to the doctor, get new glasses, get my hearing checked. Ben, you got to just blog less well sometimes. And he's like, I'm a fucking animal. Ben's rattling off cover zero for the 31st DVO day defense. I'm like, oh my God. I'm still learning on who's what.

Yeah, but I, as an older guy now, I identified with the Newman stuff in a totally different way. Like, he sucks at pool. All right, what do I have to do? Got to go work on it. I got to go fix my eyesight. I got to change. I really like that part a lot.

Would you have, Sean? Just that I'm going to be young and vital forever, so I still don't relate to any of that stuff, you know? No, I think you guys are exactly right. I mean, I think you nailed it, Bill, where Scorsese, once he takes the paycheck, he takes on the challenge, too, and that he's excited to kind of, like, figure out how to improve on this stuff. And I guess the other thing that really resonates about it for me is Newman taking stock of why he has to do this movie. You know, like he had already been doing over the hill parts for like five or six years. The Slapshot part isn't over the hill part.

The verdict is an over the hill part. Like he kind of cast himself into this like rung out figure of American movies. And he wasn't like 75 years old. No. He was like in his early 50s or in his mid-50s. Dude, we just talked about this with Eastwood though. That's true. And same thing.

Like him and Eastwood are like, now I'm going to like, before they age me out, I'm going to age myself out. You know what I mean? I'm going to make a whole industry out of like looking back on my life and kind of memorializing it. Cruz did the opposite. He did. Yeah.

Cruz's like I'm dying my hair darker. I'm making my sixth mission impossible movie. And I'm now Tom Brady. I'm ageless. Yeah, he was like Jeremy Runner can pull this franchise from my cold fucking dead hands. So Newman wins for best

actor. Our girl, our girl, Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio nominated. It's quite a run for her. We'll be tackling that a little bit later.

It also gets nominated for best art direction. 14.5 million dollar budget made $15.5 million. 2.3. Scorsese's only film he is directed that came under-scheduled and under budget because Newman was a maniac about it.

He was the only way they get a funded. They'd put their salaries and stuff like that. This was one of those movies that if it had come out four years later, it probably would have made way more money because Cruz was just such a bigger star by the late 80s. Tough one for our guy, Raj. Not great.

Two and a half, right? Yeah. Two and a half stars from Raj and Ebert writes, The Call of Money is directed by Martin Scorsese, the most exciting American director now working, and it's not an exciting film. It doesn't have the electricity,

the wound up tension of his best work, and as a result, I was too aware of the story marching by. I disagree. I disagree, too. Here's why I respect Ebert. This is really hard to do. By this time, Ebert and Scorsese are friends. They know each other, they respect each other,

and Roger Ebert would watch a movie like this, which was disappointing to him, and he would go on TV and be like, this movie is not good. Even though he knew Scorsese personally and had a relationship with him. He had a lot of integrity. Now, he's dead wrong about this movie,

especially in what he writes about the ending of this movie. Him missing on the ending and wanting some sort of catharsis, which is so not the point of the movie, is an interesting miss for him. But I still respect that he was willing to look Martin Scorsese basically in the eye and tell him, like, not good enough. This isn't what you do well.

Also, bad review. Like, this movie gets better as it goes. It's not like the story's not aimlessly going along. By the time they start traveling around at the different pool halls, it's like I don't even know what the most rewatchable scene is out of all that. We're about to cover that.

All right. Even the great's missed one every time to time. We're into the categories, but we'll take a break. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more. With Carvana, it is.

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Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Most rewatchable scene. I actually had to cut this down. I had like 12 and I'm like Jesus and I had to go backwards. I'll just go through some quick ones.

Cruz demolishing John Torturo. Sledgehammer break. Newman, they keep doing the, he does it twice where he just kind of does this natural turn like Jesus, what the hell is that? And then he does the $500 gimmick on him. I like that part. I like when he shuts down Carmen's flirting. This is about 45 minutes in. She's kind of let him see her.

naked once and then the second time she's lying on the bed and say hey this is business like they do a good job at that we got a racehorse here a thoroughbred you make them feel good i teach him how to run do you understand we're business people wow the uh the pool hall this side full disclosure this is gonna be my favorite part the black pool hall where newman leaves cruise comes back what he got in there in there. In here? Doom. Doom.

And then proceeds to do the Werewolves of London where Cruz goes for it as much as I think anyone's ever gone for it. Maybe in the history of this podcast other than Pacino and Heat. Like out of a good actor. No camera has ever loved an actor

more than those two minutes. It's really an incredible shot when you're watching it, how he makes all the shots. and he's got the charisma and Scorsese catches everything, but he still has to make all the shots. Like, look, full confession, I was a big pool guy back in the day.

Whoa. Oh, yeah. Only child had a pool table in the basement. Come on. Wow. Yeah. He used to play for money, all kinds of stuff. I have a whole dark history.

Did you hustle? Yeah. Did you dump? Wow. There might have been some time in Boston in the, in the mid-90s, the Bruce Skeller. Did some guy turn to you and you?

go, you think you're better than me. Yeah, the, but the Jaybug and I might have, might have won some money off, off some people who, uh, who were there every once in a while. What was your, what was your, what was your nickname? Was it like, billiards billy, what are we, like, what are we talking about? I might have my own cue, not in the mid-90s. What? A balabushka?

Didn't have a balabushka. Didn't have a bala-bushka. But yeah, no, we played a lot of pool, you know? It was like, what do we have? We didn't really have video games to that level. And there was like, pool, ping pong. It was old school. CR and I played a lot of pool back in New York,

but as I recall, neither of us were very good. Chris, are you good? No. Yeah, I'm not very good at pool. I like to play, though. Well, the person he plays in this movie, I'm spoiling this now. It's too good for half-fast internet research.

Bruce A. Young, who plays Mozel. You know who that is? Fuck, yeah. Jackie the prostitute from risky business. Yes. Same person. Same character. Did not know that until this weekend.

Handpicked by Cruz, or how did that happen? I have no idea, but it's just an, it is an incredible IMDB. It had to have been Cruz bringing it back, because Bruce is great and risky business. I'm sure it's Corseiz. He saw a risky business and was like, that guy's got something. So he's in it, playing Mozel. You get that, and then you get right after you get the Newman speech, which is really, like, well-written. It's like a page and a half of dialogue.

like money won as twice as sweet as money earned. 25 years ago, I had the screws put on me. I mean, it was over for me before it really got started. I'm hungry again, and you bled that back into me. You've got to have two things to win.

You've got to have brains, and you've got to have balls. You've got too much of one and not enough of the other. I remember saying that to Chris 10 years ago when we were doing the triangle. That whole stretch is unbelievable, though. I don't know why it's so much fun to watch Tom Cruise play pool, but now with the 35 years of history with him,

where you know that he probably spent, what, 10 hours a day playing pool so he could be the most believable pool player possible. This is, in my opinion, the funniest version of Tom Cruise committing himself to a bit as an actor. It's a case, though, where it actually helps the movie. It improves the movie by doing what you said, which is the unbroken shots of him dominating the table. Watching him make those shots over and over again in the movie makes the movie better, makes Vincent a better character.

The fact that he does that his hair was perfect thing, which is, you know, like the iconic shot, like there's also that close up of his face smiling as he's about to do like a one-handed shot, basically. But you think about like the timing that they must have had to have down, both him making all that, but them timing it to World Wolves of London. And all of that stuff is cool, and we can talk about it like it's a highlight reel. but it completely convinces you of who Vincent is.

You know what I mean? Like there's no movie magic. You're just watching a movie star. And it winds up being completely transporting because of that. Cocktails a little like that too, where it's just like movie star. There's scenes in this or you're just like, that guy's a fucking star. I wasn't necessarily clear until this movie in Top Gun that that was the case, like to that degree. We knew he was good.

He was certainly like, Risky Business was a major movie. But he plays that a little bit straight, right? But in all three of those movies that you just mentioned, Cocktail, Top Gun, and this movie, there's no self-awareness. There's no wink. There's no, like, I'm in on the joke, I promise. Like, most movie stars now,

Dwayne Johnson, Chris Pratt, like, Chris Evans, like, these guys are actively working to be like, we're all in on this joke together. Isn't it ridiculous that I'm doing this? At this time, and part of it is a function of the time and part of it is a function of just cruise being like the best way forward is for me to be, kind of a sap in a good way

is like when he's dancing to Earl of London he's a buffoon and the coolest guy of all times simultaneously. That's so hard to, he's a flake like Newman says in the movie. It's also like the suspension of disbelief that has to happen where this white guy walks into chalkies and starts

dancing to Warren Zevon and everybody is just like clapping and cheering and I'm like, oh yeah, for sure I would also be clapping and cheering if I was at chalkies. Well, we didn't really fully talk about what is the thing he's doing where he's flipping the queue? Oh, they're like, it's like a num chuck type thing?

Yeah, doing numjucks, yeah. Because earlier he does like the sword and has Carmen kiss it. I feel like Cruz might have ad lib that with Scorsese. Like, hey, Marty, I got a surprise for you for the, for the, where was the London scene. I was also thinking how many times they must have filmed that because he's singing with the song, right? So that might have been 20 takes unless Marty was just trying to keep it along. He was going to keep it along mode.

Do you think, you think at any point he was like, what if it was? give me shelter and they're like, no, no, it's not going to work. Well, in this script itself, it's James Brown. Price has it as James Brown. More rewatchable scenes. I got five more. It's short, but when Eddie and Carmen

tend to be a couple. Two brothers and a stranger. Really good. Incredible sequence. The bartender, you want to go for a thousand. I like the money player battle when the guy is fucking with Cruz, and Cruz is supposed to be dumping to him. He's like, it's like a night,

isn't it? He's just like getting in his head. It's like a nightmare, isn't? Don't choke now. It's not that hardest yet. And Cruz can't take it and finally snaps. That's a good one. Huge Grady Seasons energy from Sean. Yes. I mean, Grady and I have I modeled my work after his career, honestly. How about Forrest Whitaker's big scene? One of my favorites.

Great. Amos. So in 86, seeing this, it was like, hey, the guy from Fast Times. That was the reaction, because that was, was really all you probably knew him from. He was in fast times and a couple others. This was kind of his first, I'm on the map part. And he's great in that scene. Classic Scorsese being like this guy.

This guy, I need this guy to take over my movie for three minutes. Yeah, he does. Newman's comeback montage. I'm just adding just because you know how much I love montage. The Newman's getting it back. He's paying money at the beginning of the montage. By the end, he's taking money. Hitting some shots.

We get to see a couple of halls. And then I got to be honest, I would have watched an hour of the nine ball tournament leading to Newman beating Cruz. I was in on all the matchups. I wanted more. I wanted announcers. Are there deleted scenes with an hour?

I really like that part. And then obviously the ending. What do you have for most rewatchable? I have a couple. Well, I have like one or two that you didn't mention. I really, really love when Eddie takes Vincent and Carmen to dinner. That's yes. And goes and picks up the girl, picks up Diane at the bar.

I want to have that. Yeah. Check for the meal sets. I'll leave with her. Okay, ready, go. Now, I'm counting. I know this is going to sound crazy, but would you come outside and take a little... That's a good man.

That's awesome. And I also have... When the whole scene in the bar where Eddie is given Vincent to Balibushka, and it's just a bunch of these tracking shots around the bar, like Carmen comes into the bar. Then Eddie tells her to, like, basically... go cold with Vincent to make him want to go on the road because he's going to think that she's like going to leave him

and then when Vincent's like, don't make a federal production out of it. Eddie gave me a balladushka. I just didn't know where you went, all right? I was looking for you. Let's not make a federal production out of this, okay? Okay. Okay.

It's a ballot bushka. He gave it. Great. I did. Mary Elizabeth Massadronia is great in that scene. I also like that, Sean. like after Vincent throws the match at the end, and then he comes back up to the apartment,

he'll tell him that he's throwing the match. Gives him this cut. And he gives him the $8,000. And then, you know, they go off into the night. And as soon as they close the door, Helen Shaver's like, well, he's a little prick. Just putting a little button on what we think of Vincent. What do you have for most watchable, Sean?

Are you a werewolf's the lending guy? I, either Grady Seasons or Forrest Whitaker, those two showdowns to me are like, those are snapshots of where Scorsese's going as a director. Like we talked about it on The Departed. We also talked about it years ago and we did Wolf of Wall Street. This like super fast-cutting montage

blues soundtrack explosion thing that he does where I think when shit goes sideways in the Grady Season segment, he literally runs the audio backwards. Like the soundtrack is blues music played in reverse to show us things are getting out of control here. Like, Vincent is taking over and doing

something he's not supposed to do. And it's like all these little decision making things that Scorsese does. So I think I'll go Grady Seasons because it's almost like him breaking bad. I got werewolves, but the entire chalky sequence, including like, the one where you know, Fat Eddie plays Vince for the first time.

And Vince is like, even if it's just for bangers, everybody's doing it. And if everybody's doing it, that's a lot of guys doing it. If a lot of guys are doing it, only one could be the best. and he's just like cool it. It's such a great moment. So the whole he leaves, he comes back, werewolves, the whole chalky sequence.

What's age the best? Wait, Phil, what's here? What's yours? Oh, it's werewolves. The werewolves into this speech. It's unbelievable. I love all the sports movie stuff, though. It's weird that this movie isn't considered a sports movie,

and I get it. I don't even know if people consider billiards of sport, even though it was on ESPN for like the entire 80s. But there's just some really good sports movie stuff. in this. Like, big, big splashy three to four minute scenes where you can follow the action, everything shot perfectly, and there's like a winner and a loser type of thing. It's just really, really good.

Wood's age the best for some players' luck itself as an art. Just a great quote. I love there's that shot, which I think they use in the trailer where they come into the frame in sequence where Newman, it's the side of Newman's face first. and then it's Mary Elizabeth Master Toney and then Cruz last and they're all kind of lined up but it's just like so fucking cool there's a lot of moments like that in this movie

the Vince T-shirt is iconic it's so good so Brandon Flowers used to wear this on stage with the killers like a lot the Vince T-shirt was like a thing as a callback I like that I would buy the Vince T-T-shirt

if it was available Robbie Robertson's score is excellent that I don't know now I'm speaking Chris's language well I was going to say that it's in the way that you use it has actually aged the best

because I didn't like that kind of music at all when I went in the 80s and Eric Clapton is not age the best possibly but like that song is sick like that song is when they're playing that before Werewolves of London you're just like getting so hype that was a nice kind of sneaky Clapton run there

in the mid 80s I was there for it because it's got that it had that other song It's like Who do you love? Is it him? Is it me?

I gotta know. There's a couple songs like that. I think the shot 80s Clapton, yeah? Yeah. Did 80s Clapton come back? As someone who grew up with a lot of Clapton being played in the household, I'm out on that.

But I'm in on the two Robert Palmer songs used in this movie. 70s Robert Palmer, super underrated. And there's a nice Henley solo Henley. Who owns this place? Never really took off.

Yeah, who owns this place? Great soundtrack. Cheesy post-Eagles Henley, but at the same time, I enjoyed it. Ballhouse. I'm glad, Chris. Yeah. Crushing.

Just the, like, how many shots could we name? The shot of behind Newman with all the pool tables in Atlantic City, when he first gets there, they're just coming out of his pockets in this one.

The reflection of Newman off the ball. That's one of the great movie shots. Love that. the final scene is in a room full of mirrors. You can't see the fucking camera in any of the mirrors. How'd they do that? When Newman's driving to chalkies to get Vince during

Werewolves and Werewolves of London has just started playing, the fucking streetlights go past in the windshield, like in time to the music. Like, those guys are out of their minds. They are so good at that stuff. Chris, you want to do 20 seconds on Richard Price? Yeah, sure. I mean, he was written two of my favorite books,

Lush Life and Clockers. He's like a great, great New York novelist. He started out writing very very, very mean streets-esque books when he was younger. And then transitioned into being more of a crime writer and a screenwriter. He wrote an iconic one for us that has not yet been done, Sea of Love, Pacino and Barkin. Yeah, I see your face, Phil. What are you looking for, Frank?

What are you looking for? He's also part of the Murderer's Row that worked on Wire Season 3 with George Pelicanos and Simon and Lahane. and then wrote the night of, co-wrote the night of, and The Outsider, and is an incredible novelist and screenwriter. Chris,

and I highly recommend his books. What did I do? Chris, you forgot about kiss of death. He wrote kiss of death. He wrote Kiss of Death. Nicholas Cage, David Caruso, Kiss of Death.

Bill. You want to talk about one for us? That's like on its own One for Us list. It's on like a new feed. Hate the taste of metal in my mouth. That's at least like, if we did proof of life, we have to do Kiss of Death.

We would have to re- open bidding for the advertising for the podcast, just for that. Huge discounts just for that episode. Oh, markups. We're jacking up the price. When Tarantino was on, didn't he say he, didn't he back me on that movie that he liked that movie? On Carus, because we were talking Caruso

in New York, yeah, and he was like Caruso is elite, which he is. I may or may not have been watching it within the last seven days. And there's a seen at the end when Caruso he confronts Nick Cage and then his bad guys come and Caruso pulls his gun out and there's three guys around him but he does this weird Caruso thing with this with the gun and somehow staves all of them off. Caruso was the most improbable tough guy in a movie

I think we've ever had that I actually believed. Kiss of Death should, Kiss of Death should have been the biggest movie like of all time. Barbay Schroeder coming off of reversal of fortune and single white female. Here's the cast of Kiss of Death. David Caruso, Catherine Irby, Helen Hunt, Sam Jackson, Michael Rapipport, Ving, Rames, Stanley Tucci, Nick Cage. Come on! And Price on the script.

And Sam Jackson, right after Pulp Fiction. Yep. It's like his next movie. I loved it. I'm a supporter. Any other, what stage is the best for you guys? I think it's the rare 80s movie in which the style still works. You know, the characters are dressed well.

Newman looks impeccable. You could wear everything Newman is wearing in this movie today and still look cool. Oh, I had Newman's mustache. I forgot to mention that one. Mustache by him in this movie. You can do that, Bill. You could do that mustache. Yeah, your hair is a little darker

and you got the later mustache. I'll look into it. What about Newman's Cadillac? That's great. Newman, I just love Newman. He's amazing. I actually think he might be my favorite actor of all time. Like, I don't know if I had to make the list.

I don't know what the order would be, but he'd be one of the first people I thought of. Just home run every time from him. Even when he's like in Towering Inferno, it just seems classier that he's in Towering Inferno. You know what I mean? I think that's a great way to put it. You just feel like you're in good hands with him.

Yeah, like he, like the, he single-handly vouches for the things he's in because he chose the movie. It's such a hard place to get to. I think Leo is basically there. I think I might have said it at the end of Departed, but I do think it's genuinely the baton for best guy at this. This specific kind of amazing actor,

amazing movie star blend goes Newman, then passes it to Denzel, then Denzel passes it to Leo. I think that's the trajectory of guys who are like, this guy could win 10 Oscars or this guy could be the biggest movie star in the world and he wants to have both. Yeah, I don't know if would Newman have had that run that Denzel has, which by the way I love, don't think I'm criticizing it. The out of time, deja vu, man on fire, holy trilogy. I don't know if Newman would have done three in a row like that. That's kind of why I love Denzel in his own way because sometimes he would just play the hits.

I think Newman has a softer, like, softer spot than Denzel. Like, Denzel will make some family dramas here and there, you know, but, like, for the most part, like Denzel is very comfortable playing an absolute psychopath. Like, Newman, I think. But wouldn't have played, he couldn't have played, or he hasn't, we haven't seen it, play Reg in Slapshot. No. That kind of, that there's a, there was a really funny side to Newman that I don't know if there's

a Denzel movie that hits actor. up like comedy or like a funny like a funny comedy. Yeah, that's like a dromedy, right? Like there's, there's, and it's an incredible movie until we have the strip tease seen at the end,

which I still feel like is an all-time bad decision for a sports movie. I have one more what's age the best. I just wanted to throw out there. What is it? The way that this movie

acknowledges the hustler, which is very subtle, like when Newman's talking to Vince and Carmen about like you're a character that's basically the George C. Scott has the same conversation with Paul Newman and The Hustler. The Hustler is a great movie. You can have seen the Hustler. You don't have to.

You know, you should see the Hustler. It's a great movie. But so many movies now that do the IP thing or do the sequel or do the franchise thing are like bending over backwards to essentially remake the movie that they made. And there are some things like they go on the road in the Hustler, they go on the road in color of money. But it's not overwrought. And like it's actually like a new chapter of that character, not just a recycled story.

So I just really think that the way that they handled that part was great. It's true to that movie, too, because it's the Newman character in the color of money becomes the George C. Scott character in the hustler. It's that thing where, like, you always become your father. You always become the thing that you hate the most. Like, it's inevitable and you can't avoid it. And there's something really clever about that, but you're right that they don't, he never says that. He never says like, oh, I'm becoming like this guy was when I was 25.

But it's implied that this is like, you can't escape your fate. When he gets drunk and gets hustled by Amos, it's basically the first time he plays Jackie Gleason and the hustler where he's just like wasted and thinks he's going to win and then gets hustled. So, yeah. It's the continuation sequel, which is a movie gimmick, I don't feel like they do enough. It's like, we're getting the band back together with an actor I liked playing a character I liked. And we don't really see it enough. I wish I did it more. Yeah, a sequel usually is directly responding to the events of the previous.

film. Not enough movies are sort of like, let's go back to that world, but we're not too hung up on what happened in the last intervening 10 or 15 or 50 years. This is my idea for White Lotus season two. Cruz from Cocktail now owns the resort in Jamaica. And Cruz is actually still playing Brian Flanagan. The continuation sequel is always great. What's age the worst? So he's really good at the arcade video game Stocker.

Yeah. Yep. Which just has not, I just never had the legs. I kind of wish they had picked Miss Pac-Man or Jungle King or one of the other ones from the mid-80s

that kind of lived on. Was Stocker a real game? It might not have been. I probably should have researched this. I don't remember Stocker at all. There's also a very memorable game. I can't remember what it is that's like right next to it

in the beginning of the movie. Do you remember what game that is that he's not playing? That's very notable. Is it like Spy Hunter? or something. No. It might be

like Gallagher or asteroids or one of those. Yeah. I wish it had been Gallagia. They didn't really use a balabushka in this movie.

They used the Josh J.18 and made it to resemble the classic balabushka. I feel like they could have used a real one. Maybe they didn't want to hurt it or something like that.

It's a Disney movie. Come on, Michael Eisner. Yeah, Jesus. Stump up the money for a balabushka, you know? Another what's aged the worst,

and I say this lovingly, is the cameos from 1980s pool stars because they were a bigger deal. I'm telling you, we didn't have a lot of channels in the mid-80s, and I knew who Steve Mahalik was and some of these other dudes, and it was like,

hey, Steve! And now it's like, you wouldn't know who the fuck those guys were. Like, that was important that he's in this movie. It would have been like having, I don't know, Gary Carter in the movie if it was a baseball movie,

you know? And instead, you just wouldn't know that 35 years later. There's no way producer Craig was like, hey, is that Steve Mahalick? Is that Keith McCready? Right. Why did billiards slip out of view in the public eye? Why is this not a cool sport or like a...

Why do we not know who the best players in the world are now? I think TV just got more interesting and we just got more options. In the mid-80s, there were less options. Yeah, I mean, ESPN bought baseball rights, right? Like, Australian rules football was the thing that I used to watch in the mid-80s. Did poker kind of market-correct nine ball on TV?

It might have. But poker, that doesn't. happen until they have the cameras on the hold cards, which is early 2000s, right? Which is also the same technology that makes a lot of this movie so good as the lipstick cameras on the table. That's part of what makes the movie look so cool. But that being said, like cornhole is very popular on television right now. Cornholes were taking market-corrected pool. That's weird. Isn't that weird how that happened? I always thought my theory on this is that the people who were the best at pool were people you just didn't want to hang out with when you were

watching TV. It was always like the cheesiest people both ways, male or female, whatever the thing was. It was always like, it kind of how Phil Helmuth makes me feel when I'm watching and play poker. I just don't like hanging out with this guy for an hour. I don't enjoy his company. And that was most of the pool guys. There was also like a period of time I remember with pool on TV where all the players dressed like blackjack dealers. Yeah. You know, and like they all had like a white shirt with a black vest and seemed like they worked at like. And some bowl. polo tie? Yeah, like at a Bertolucci's or something and we're just like table for three or something. I don't know. You're right. There was not a lot of charisma from the players. No disrespect to Grady season.

Well, Grady seems to be riffing on that. I mean, he's literally playing the most unlikelyable person you've ever seen in the life. He's got a little Roddy Piper act like vibe to him. Yeah. He's a heel. Nineball is just such a great premise too. And the games are fast. Like, it probably should come back. Hey, but let's do it. We'll work in a lot of time. Why don't we do, we should make the cornhole of money. You know, it's like, it's Vince 25 years later and he's become really in a cornhole. He's, where was the London? He's throwing it like behind his hand.

They're going to go through. All right. We're going to take a break and do some more categories. Chris, you had one more with stage the worst before we get through the rest. I got two. There's one major thing that I wanted to talk to you guys about is you just don't see this in real life. But like when guys are all at a bar betting on something, they just wave cash in front of each other.

Like they do it chalkies. Like we gotta got rid of that with phones where it's just like, yeah, Venmo you $15 we lost. But in this movie, it's like very trading places where it's just dudes waving shit in each other's faces.

Blood sports like that too, with Von Daum. Yeah, how do you keep track of who's bet on what and what the spread is and everything like that? And then the other thing is this movie just doesn't really happen

with phones because like, you know, Eddie's whole thing is like if Vince had done this anywhere else but Chalkies, it would have been all over that he was good, but because the Chalkies guys never leave the street. Like, they're okay. But like, you know, nine ball Twitter would have just been all over, Vince. Yeah. There's a YouTube clip. There's probably a TikTok. Somebody's taping him doing Werewolves of London. They put Werewolves on TikTok. Yeah. Just one other,

what's age of the worst, like, was Warren Zivon big at Chalkies for real? Like, why was that on the box? Why was that on the Chewbox? You know, no disrespect to either chalkies or Warren Zvon. Mozel is like, get the headless gunner at midnight on. Casting what ifs, they thought about Gleason, bringing back Minnesota Fats. Newman's told the New York Times, we desperately wanted the character returned. Every time we put him in, it seemed like we were trying to glue an arm on a man and make it stick. And then I guess they gave him a script, and Gleason felt like Minnesota Fats was an afterthought.

I'm glad that he's not in this. I think so too. It is interesting, though, because this is theoretically based on Walter Tevis's follow-up novel to the hustler, but the movie has almost nothing to do with the novel in terms of the story that they told because Minnesota Fats was in the novel. Then Walter Tevis, of course, I mean, he's been in the news quite a bit lately because he wrote the Queen's Gambit novel, which was then adapted last year. And he's like one of the great kind of sports and games novelists of all time. they added the Helen Shaver character pretty late before filming

because they got worried that Eddie's relationship slash fascination with Vincent might be misinterpreted as like he was attracted to him. Really? Is that why? Yeah. That was kind of cobbled together. That's why she's in like two scenes of the beginning and two at the end and that's it.

Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. Cruz's uncle from cocktails in one of the bars. That guy. Yeah. That confirms the Jackie theory, though. You know, like Cruz takes place in the risky business universe. Just that Cruz is kind of grabbing all of his supporting figures over the years.

Yeah. There you go. Bruce A. Young is a candidate for Best That Guy. Moselle and Jackie has two of his things. And then our guy Bill Cobbs plays Orvis. Love Bill Cobbs. Do people know he's Bill Cobbs or is it just us? I don't think so.

Yeah. I mean, New Jack City, he's got like, I think he really, he really got a pretty big name for himself off that, right? I think people know he's Bill Cobbs. So I think... I have our winner. Who is it? In the Atlantic City bar,

the guy who's like won the Akron open and is trying to get Vincent to play him at the tournament in the green room is Paul Herman, who in Goodfellas is like, you want to see helicopters, I'll make you see helicopters. That guy, that's a good one. Paul Herman is Beansy from the Sopranos.

Yeah, he's great. He's also in the Irishman. That's a good one. good one. I go with him or Cruz's uncle. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for best overacting. Tom Cruise, come on down. Except your word. The Werewolves Lenin scene.

That is dialed up to 29 out of 10. It's epic. I don't know if he's ever dialed it up more. I've got to be honest. Who would you give it to if it wasn't Cruz? Would you go to Turro here? Would you go Julian? What's going on with Vito Dambrogio, Lou, at Child World?

You know, and he's trying to get Vincent to come back to work? Luke, can you see I'm working here? Yeah. I don't know. This is, I can't see anyone other than Cruz. Dion Waiters. I mean, I think the dude who plays greaty seasons. Keith?

Keith McCready. He's really going for it. Not positive he can act. I don't know how intentional that was. Cruz is like, I'm going to own this room for two minutes, and I've got a Scorsese tracking shot to back up. I have him for Dion because I feel like he is who Cruz modeled his game after. and I feel like in that one scene

I'm like you guys fucking know like I can play pool better than Tom Cruise. Other nominees for Dan Waiters would be Whitaker and I think Tertoro is eligible because he's only in a few scenes. This is an early Terturo. Had didn't really become Tarturo yet.

I think this was like one of his first big roles. But Whitaker's in one scene and just crushes it. And it's definitely a who is that guy moment. He's really great. I think he has to be the winner. I agree. He's so. brilliant. And when the flip switches where it becomes clear

that he's a hustler and that the ruse is up when he's like, you know, you want me to pay you or not pay you? Or, you know, when he's kind of confronting him near the end, it's just an amazing sequence. Hey, you don't want to pay me? Keep it. Forget it. I don't want no bad feelings.

When a guy loses, I lost paid. I don't know. You're a hustler. Amos. Good job by Newman, too. recasting couch I'm sending Helen Shaver packing it's no disrespect to her

damn Jesus it's tough I have a movie with directed by Martin Scorsesie with Tom Cruise and Paul Newman in it so who you bring

you got Joey Montana's sister I need I need some firepower here Michelle Pfeiffer and what word like who do you want Julie Christie Oh wow As Janelle You see a lot of girls

who look like Julie Christie hanging out in bars in Chicago? She's gonna, you know, it's gonna be a little method acting for her a little bit. I'm into Julie Christie conversations on the rewatchables a little overqualified

for that part in my opinion. That's my point. This is, she's not though, because it's a movie. It's like having Wahlberg and the Departed or Alec Baldwin or Martin Sheen.

It's like, if we're gonna go for it with two of the biggest stars of 1986, let's put like a real older lady with them who has some chops. I agree. Why was Pacino,

not Grady Seasons? You know, let's keep playing it out. Departed. I couldn't think of anyone, but the Julie Christie was the right age range for that. I always felt like there's like three more movies she should have been with. I'm still in love with 70s, 80s, Julie Christie. But there's like three more movies she should have made during that time where it should have been parts like this, where she's just the Helen Shaver part for four, you know, four scenes and out.

English accent. I like Shaver. I was thinking the Vertic lady, Charlotte Rambling, a little comeback reunion. Charlotte Rampling, another, I don't really see a lot of ladies like that at Chicago bars selling off-brand bourbon. That's actually harder to believe that Julie Christie. Why not Helen Mirren?

Helen Mirren would be a good one. She's a huge fan of her. She was still young, 86. She can give you some feedback on that. All right. You feed her by Julie Christie idea. Well, if anyone can come up. I like your ambition, you know.

Thanks. I think reaching high for bit parts that are underwritten just to make sure the audience knows Paul Newman's character is not gay is definitely what Julie Christie wants to do. Right. She's doing the Lord's work. So the Richard Price thing, Price got,

there's a lot of stuff about Price getting frustrated because he would do a scene, Newman would be like, cool, write it again, write it again, and going down in Rabbit Hall. Newman became one of like only six people who won or even got nominated for an Oscar for playing a part he'd already played.

Doesn't really happen. Pacino is another one from Michael Corleone. It's a short list. You can look it up on the internets. Him and Joanne Woodward became the first married couple to win his and hers Oscars since... Since... Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise? Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton?

No. Vivian Lee and Lawrence Olivia. And Lawrence Olivier. Oh, okay. Sir, Lawrence Olivier. Very formal. It's good flex. Cruz did his own trick shots except for one. the scene when the ball jumps two balls.

They had to bring in a stunt person for that. Scorsese said, I could have let Cruz learn the shot. I think Cruz wanted to learn the shot, but it would have taken two extra days of practice and production. So they were like, fuck it, let's cheat it. Do you think this movie would have been better if Sir Lawrence Olivier had played Moselle? So when Tom Cruise says Doom,

that leads to the software company, coming up with the name for their new revolutionary video game, Doom. This is an actual thing that happened. They named it after that scene. Amazing. That's incredible. You won't be surprised

that sales of pool tables and billiards-related supplies jumped dramatically after the car rocketed in the Simmons household. Yeah. Nope. Already had all that stuff. Didn't skyrocket at all.

Added nothing. Did you model your game after anyone you saw in this movie? No. Not even, not Amos, not even a little bit? No.

My whole thing with pool was rhythm. It was move around the table at a certain speed because I thought that would psych people out. Wow, you're like Charlie Watts. It's all about keeping time. Like instead of like slaving over the same shot for 12 seconds, looking like just move, go down, bang it, go to the next one.

And three in a row, now that person's like, oh, shit. What kind of stakes did you use to play for? Because I was trying to figure out whether they're like, sometimes they're like paying for $20 in this movie. I'm like, what kind of living is that? but then they get up, obviously, around you can make five grand. I mean, I wasn't doing stuff like this. These are like the best players doing like real.

To me, this is almost like what poker would become, right? Where these guys are playing poker and then eventually they break off into their own games at night and the stakes are massive. No, this is like bar stuff. This is what people did in the 80s and 90s. They would just go to a bar and play pool for seven hours, you know? the Illinois Billiard Club

was the location it was originally in Chicago relocated a Willow Spring still has two of the tables used for the film and then Scorsese came up with Goodfellas

when he was filming this he read a review of wise guy and got excited about Henry Hill and the rest was history so there you go Apex Mountain Newman no

cruise no Scorsese, no. No. So it's your triple no Apex Mountain. Billiards, I think we're probably a yes for this because it's on ESPN2. I feel like it never got bigger for billiard. There's not, is there another pool movie that we're not thinking of here, aside from this and the hustler?

Not really. There's scenes. Clapton, comeback, Clapton, I think this is about as good as it got for him after he'd gotten through all the drug stuff. MTV Unplugged was the big one, right? What year was that? Is that after this? Oh, yeah, you're right. That was bigger.

How does it compare CR to the anti-mask concert you just went to over the weekend? They Clapton put on. Clapton and Van Morrison, how was that show? You know, they did comfortably know him. It was pretty riveting. Keith Bacredi? Yeah, I would say so. What about when he was inducted into the Pool Hall of Fame that I was reading about last night? Was Tom Cruise and Paul Newman there? Because that happened in this movie?

The Balabushka, I feel like never got more love and respect and probably excitement around it than this movie. Is this like a Catano sword or there are only like 50 of these in existence or something? Like, why couldn't they get a real one for the movie? I think they're really expensive. Okay. Balabushka was known as the strativarius of the cue maker. So that implies that maybe there were only a limited number. I had a couple pool cues, including the short pool queue because there was.

like we had in the basement, there was like one of those that came down, bad angle one. And we used to call the Little Pool Q, Hervey, after Hervey Villashez. That's good. Tattoo and Fantasy Island. It'd be like break out Hervei. That doesn't date that reference at all.

Yeah, it's dated three generations. Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio, Apex Mountain, and it's time to talk about her too. So I don't think so. It's probably abyss. or perfect storm but she is candidly a five alarm fire

in this movie I think it's this I think if you leave this movie she got a nomination for this coming out of this movie you'd think she's going to be one of the biggest stars we have on the female side

I think Robin Hood Prince of Thieves she's made Marion that's right that movie was a huge hit that's pretty good And that was after the abyss, right? Yeah. She's so, at this time, she's so beautiful.

She's so striking. Like, she's really so well cast as, like, just three or four or five years older than Cruz. And that edge, that age really helps the part a lot. But she's just, I'm mesmerized by her. She really did not have, like, a massive career. It's weird. If you look at her IMDB by the 2000s, 2010s,

it's like she's going on CSI. and law and order and shows like that. I don't get it. I had two theories on her. One is, I think, Madeline Stowe, market corrected her. Okay. I think they battled and I think Madeline Stowe ended up winning. Two, I think sometimes bad name.

Bad name for, like, a Hollywood movie star. It's a really hard name to say. You feel like you're mispran. It's a lot of values. Even the last letters of her name, I think it was a record for a record for a movie. most letters in somebody's name that got nominated for an Oscar. And I really wonder what happens if her name is just like Mary Jenkins.

Could be. I don't know. Could be. Master and Tony was not easy. Yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I mean, like, I stumbled over it the first time I said it on this pod. So, I mean, it's still. If her name is Robin Wright, does she have a better chance?

I don't know. I think it's also during a time when the three, the actress three name thing was happening, you know, so like Mary. Laura Sanjicomo, Mary Stewart Masterson, like there were a few of those that was like they all kind of got confused from time to time if you were a casual observer. This is the, I think,

I think this is my favorite on-screen romance for Cruz. Some people are partial to Cruz in Zellweger, some people like Cruz and Kelly McGillis. I love these two. Like the way they're just like always kind of slapping around at each other and playing grab ass, but also like getting into fights like on a drop of a dime. It's like very

it's very true to like young love that is kind of out of control a little bit. I just always thought they had a great chemistry. I still like the rich lady from cocktail. Oh yeah. Whatever her name was. She was doing yoga in the morning, aerobics in the morning at 5.30 as he's trying to sleep and join her. I'm going cruise and Ving Rhames in the Mission Impossible movies. That's a good one.

Yeah, they did have a good thing. I really liked her. I think this sometimes happened though, especially in the, 80s and 90s where you for the female actresses because there were so few good parts they would have their run for four years and then somebody else would grab it and then they would give it up and then somebody else would grab it and it was really hard to kind of stay relevant we didn't have prestige TV back then either it's really couldn't do like a mayor of east town yeah she might have had a family she has kids it might have been right around then but like you know she's works pretty

steadily from 86 to 92 and then she just takes three years off completely and it's like right in the aftermath of Robin Hood and consenting adults and like big movies. So it might have been a choice that she made too to just not work as much. I did 10% of me did wonder if because she came out so hard against Cameron during the abyss, whether that made her like a problem child or something. It seems like everybody comes out against Cameron after a movie comes out. They're just like, this guy worked me to the bone and threw me in the water a bunch, you know? She was the one that got the mad ass. She said she had a nervous breakdown on the set, all this stuff. And then when she got Robin Hood, it was because somebody else dropped out the last minute. They had.

had to like quickly cast her. So who knows? One more Apex Mountain. We've had a lot of debate. We haven't really had a lot of consensus in this category. I think we could all agree that it's Apex Mountain for sweater vests. You don't see those a lot anymore, but Jesus Christ, a lot of guys weren't sweater vest. Newman absolutely killing the sweater vest game in this movie.

And the outfit he's wearing when he's playing Amos and just getting shit face throughout the day, beautiful. He's a beautiful man. Chris, maybe bring him back. Maybe it's time. Sweeter vests. Yeah. Write that down.

Pickin'nits. I only have a couple. What was Eddie doing before he meets Vincent? So he's like running a club? What's his job, you think? Selling liquor. Yeah, he's a wholesale liquor wholesaler. But I think he's also like bootlegging some stuff too.

So he'll be like, you can put this in an expensive bourbon bottle. I'll sell it to you cheaper. You can mark it up. You know, but you can call it old McDonald's. Seems like there's more going on than just that. Yeah. What is, yeah. He's a hustler.

Julian's a little coked up. Maybe he's got a little finger in that pie. Actually, he doesn't like drugs, right? He's like, you guys all got a coke and vitamin. No, alcohol, you know, goes back to the Bible. Wine. I hate the forfeit in the tournament. I hate it.

When he forfeits to the white guy with the du rag? I just hate it. I don't understand it. And I think if we're, this is grand, this is pick a knits. This is the time to do it. if we're really going to dive into what is a flaw with this movie, it's basically trying to say he brings in Cruz. In the first hour of the movie, he's teaching Cruz,

here's what you got to do to make money. Here's how to play the game. These are all the things. And sometimes you're going to have to sacrifice your dignity for a couple games or a couple hours. But always keep the end game in mind. And then he gets reinvigorated by playing pool, has this comeback and he, like, finds himself again. after all these years after the hustler.

So then he's in this tournament and he thinks he beat Cruz. But Cruz used the thing that he taught him fantastically and flipped it on him and gave him a cut of the money. And Eddie's going, that wasn't pure enough for me.

That's not what I'm about. Where was the shift where it's like this guy was literally the hustler to, that's not what I'm about? He never has that moment that explains it. All of a sudden, it's just like unseemly to him.

He gives the money back and he forfeits. Never added up to me. I'll try to rationalize it. I think when he gets hustled by Amos, he obviously has this crisis of faith. And it leads to him realizing that what's most important to him is being great at something

and the integrity of being great at something and not just being great at hustling people, but being great at winning at this game that he has dedicated so much of his life to. and the elation that he feels. And that's really one of the great scenes in the movie is after he beats Cruz and he's walking through the crowd and everybody's like, way to go, way to go, Eddie. And he makes a right to go down the hallway.

And then he cuts back and he goes through the outside door and he goes outside and by himself and the cold he celebrates and he fist pumps and he's so proud of himself. And that's actually what really makes him feel good. It's not money won is twice as sweet as money earned. Money earned matters to him. And that's why he gives the money back to Vincent. forfeits because that integrity is ultimately what's most important to Eddie Felson. He thinks he's in a sports movie and it turns out he's in a con man movie and he doesn't like that.

He doesn't like the idea that this is like a gambling con man movie, but he thought he had his big moment. He thought he had his championship win right there. And so it just doesn't feel right that Vincent's basically like goosing the odds to go make a ton of money in the green room off of Eddie's reputation and momentum. The only picking knit that I guess I have, hold on. I get that, but the whole thing, he's the one who's setting up the con. He was the one that taught the guy all the ropes. And all of a sudden he's like, no, I'm not about this anymore.

I'm just about the greatness of pool. I don't know. It's like I felt like there's one scene missing with this. So when they meet at the end for the final scene, the on back scene. And Vincent's like you used us. What do you think? That's my picking.

It's because I've still trying to unpack like what he means. Is he like you took us on the road and used my journey to rediscover your own interest in the game? That's what I took it as. That's my interpretation. It just feels like there's a 90-second scene missing. So you just don't buy it.

You don't buy that Newman cared more about winning on his own terms as opposed to winning dope. Yeah, and I'm a big, let the movie show us, don't tell us. But I almost feel in this case, we needed him at a bar at two in the morning talking to Helen Shaver

and having a cigarette and being like, you know, blah, blah, blah. Talking to Julie Christie, I mean. Or Julie Christie or Sissy SpaceX, whoever you want to grab. Judy Dench. Yeah, whoever. Dame Judy Judge. Any other nitpicks for you guys?

It was really just that last, like, the ambiguity of like you used us. It was always something that nagged at me. Could this be made as a 10-episode Netflix show? No. Please know. No, thanks. No. I would watch another, I would have watched

in 1995, another Eddie Felsen movie, though. It had to be Newman, though. Where's Vincent and Newman? Would you guys watch a Vince movie? Yeah. What if Vince owned the resort and White Lotus for season two? He's turned it into a pool hustlers.

He used that was a billion. Yeah. It's a big pool scene in the basement and some chicanery happens. Vince, Jennifer Coolidge, Julie Christie, Lawrence Olivier. They all own it together. Sounds great.

Unanswerable questions. would have Vincent's next 10 years look like for you guys after this movie. Just really rededicates himself to stalker. And then when he finds out that stalker actually doesn't matter, he goes back to child world. With a little more cash. I think there's a solid case for him just getting shot in the face like 12 days later. I know.

He's just a huge asshole. Yeah. He just tries that at chalkies one too many times. Yeah. Yeah, I was leaning toward he's murdered and it's not solved. or he becomes one of the biggest stars on ESPN. There could have been a deleted scene where him and Steve Mahalek are going head to head

and the announcers are talking about what a character he is. I could have bought that too. What's the most ridiculous song Vince could dance to it, Chalkies, without getting his ass kicked? Like, could he get away with doing all of stairway to heaven?

And then he's like doing like long, slow strokes. That was... Like the guy had the almost famous thing. that was my next one. What is the best Tom Cruise singing along with the song movie moment? Craig, you might have turned the camera on for this one. Best Tom Cruise singing with the song. There's surprisingly, it's a juicy category because we have Top Gun.

Yeah. Which he does twice. The opening you have cocktail. We have cocktail. We have cocktail. Cocktail addicted to love when he's behind the bar with Brian Brown, which is like kind of a really good scene with him.

And the guy's watching, going, you guys are great. I got a new joint to open it up. It's going to be amazing. It makes so much money. And it's a jail. It's a jail where people give speeches. We might have to do the re-cocktail. The reshake.

What other, is that, are those the big three? Risky business, man. Doesn't he do? Oh, risky business. Bob Singer. Yeah. This is the secret of Cruz's success, singing along to songs.

He figured out. Does it sing along to something in Jerry McGuire? Yeah, he sings to the Tom Petty song, Free Fall. That's right. That's right. Wow. This is it. So he's, this is how Cruz cracked it.

He's like, what people really want is somebody screaming incoherently to songs. As long as they can. Free Falling's pretty good. That might actually be, I mean, Top Gun probably wins, because it's a whole scene and it's Anthony Edwards and it's out of control, campy, and probably one of the most 80s scenes we have. Maybe that's a winner, but good category.

Sean, is this a better movie if we know who won the big game at the end? No, not even close. One of the all-time great endings. Do you understand why 16-year-old Bill Simmons was furious? Of course. Because you wanted to be a true sports movie. Yes, no, I get that.

Who would? What happened? But as far as like Mike dropped, final quotes, the camera's zooming in on Newman's face and he's, him just basically looking into the camera and saying, hey, I'm back. Hard cut, freeze frame. Great. Love it. So 80s. It's really good. Chris, who do you have in that match? Who won? In that match? I think Vincent kills him. Yeah, I think so. It's like, it's also he outlasts him. You know what I mean? Those guys play like, what do they play like 11 frames or whatever in nine ball games? Yeah. Any other answerable questions?

How long do you think Vincent and Carmen stay together? That was going to be my question. Oh, that's, well, he got shot in the face 12 days later, so that's when they broke up. So what's Carmen doing? She hook up with Grady? She goes for big bucks. I think she eventually meets some dude who has some deep pockets, and that's that. Gets married, has a couple kids.

Guys, a hedge fund guy in New York City. Like a Jordan Belfort type? Yeah, he's working for like Ivan Boski. Who won the movie? I think it's Newman. I have Newman as well. It's Newman. He won the Oscar.

What a fucking joke. They didn't give him an Oscar until this movie. What a clown show. Come on. What are we doing? This is hard. You don't want me do the thing where people get mad that like Kobe only won one MVP and all that. And you could just go through the seasons and debunk all.

It's like, all right, well, tell me the seasons. The Newman thing is. really seems like bad luck combined with a lack of appreciation. I think if you do the verdict here over again, he wins. But I also think you can really make a case for Hoffman because he's unbelievable in Tutsi. And I think Gandhi, I think is third. I think Kingsley won.

Yeah. I think I'd have him third for that. Gandhi, the movie, is not celebrated nearly as much. I mean, at the time, it was huge. So was Characet's a Fire, which is another movie nobody has conversations about it anymore. Yeah. That was like a phenomenon. Out of Africa is another one that's just not nearly as celebrated as it was at the time.

Those are all like they just do not make them like those anymore. Producer Craig, are you there? Yeah. What did you think of this movie? I liked it. I like going back and watching movies that I've never seen, especially by like acclaimed directors and stuff. But I'll tell you, one of the best parts of doing this podcast with you guys, every time

we finish recording, I like the movie 20% more than when I watched it. You guys always did a great job. What a sincere

thing to say, Craig? That's really nice, Craig. Also, what the hell is Child World? It's like a Toys R Us rip off, right? I thought that was fake

until you guys said it was real. I thought that was just a sign they used because they couldn't use a real store. Child World was the name? I don't know.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But like, you know, I feel like the 80s. I think Child World might have existed. Let me Google that. Childs.

I think that was a real thing. Oh, it was from 62 to 92. So I was not alive. Wow, what a run. I've been to Child World. Yeah, it does sound like the all-time scandal ever that happened at Child World. And there was a basement. And it just has creepy connotations.

Jesus Christ. Toys R Us, much more fun. Yeah, but bad name, Child World. We're back and we're going to talk more about the scandal of Child World. Yeah, I don't know. There's some stuff from the same. 70s, 80s, like Caldores was another one. That just went away. Remember? Caldors was like a huge thing for years.

I forgot about Caldors. Sean, we got to pitch our nine-part child world pod, True Crime. Pitched to who? I want no part of that, Chris. Chris, we'll talk later. All right, this podcast was produced by Craig Horlebeck. You can check out the color of money. I don't think it's streaming anywhere, but you can rent it for four bucks. I like, this is not a page. paid for anything. I like, when I pay-per-view the movies now, or rent them, I like Amazon, because I like that thing where you can see who's in the scenes. I think that's a really good

gimmick. This was on Hulu for a while. It's a Touchstone Disney movie, so I don't know. Yeah, it comes back every once in a while. It's on cable and it'll be, I'm sure it'll be in the stream is a little point. All right, Sean, Chris, Craig, good to see you guys.