The Rewatchables - ‘The Game’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: September 29, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan make their lives more fun by rewatching David Fincher’s mysterious drama ‘The Game’ starring Michael Douglas, Sean Penn, and Deborah Kara Unger. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up. They won't leave me alone. I'm a goddamn human pinata. The game is next. What do you get the man that has everything? From the director of seven. What is it? It's a game. They know who you are. This is Cynthia calling from CRS. You get this number. They know where you live. What is this? Let's save the questions for afterwards. And they want everything. Michael Douglas. Who did this to me? Why? Sean Penn. I made him more to make it stop.

The game. Starts Friday, September 12th at a theater near you. All right, Chris Ryan is here. Sean Fantasy is here. We had David Fincher Week last week. We're carrying it over until Monday of this week. We did seven for the rewatchables last week, 1995 movie. This was the follow-up from Fincher, 1997.

The Game, Polarizing movie. Most interesting piece about this movie, Sean, Fincher doesn't like it. He's kind of like semi-disowned it. Yeah. know, I think that that's common for perfectionists and common for people who are, who have created a lot of great things in their lives, right? You can look back at the thing that is maybe least well remembered and say like, that isn't good, but you're usually overstating it. And he's overstating by saying that this movie isn't good. It's really good.

And if almost any other filmmaker had made it, you'd say it's their best movie. So, interesting for him to have it be second or third worst on his long list. It's also a really good lit. It's a good litmus test for when you really like a director, when you like the movies that they've disavowed. That's how I feel about you and take hunter, Chris. You take hunter, too. I know Take Hunter 2 was the one you kind of disavowed, but I liked all the take hunters.

I see his point. He basically said the final third fell apart. And it did and it didn't. I also really like the final third. It's probably my favorite part of the movie. So I don't know what does it say about me. I love the ending. I think this is one of the great last 20-minute movie

movies. Wow. Where if it's on and it's like uh-oh, he's got James Rebhorn, he's taking him up in the elevator. Like, I'm just in at that point. I'm watching it all the way to the end. I love how it all comes together. But it's weird that he doesn't feel that way. Well, I mean, the story that he tells is that his

producing partner and soon-to-be wife, Sean, her name is Sean, um, cautioned him not to do this movie, that this shouldn't have been the film that he made after seven because it had third act problems. And the more times you watch this movie, the easier it is to attack the third act and how certain things don't make sense. We were just talking with Craig Horleback before this podcast started. He was more than willing to fire away on the things that don't totally make sense about the ending. But it is a weirdly satisfying ending,

especially the final moments of the movie I love when he meets the Deborah Kara Unger character you're outside and they go to the airport and then you hear that Jefferson Airplane song. I have like, I get a little bit of a chill when I see that final scene. So even though it's not necessarily logically great, it still is, it is satisfying. I think with him it's so hard because he obviously has such attention to detail that anything that feels like it gets away from him is exacerbated by the fact that everything else is so perfectly calibrated. But I think White Rabbit playing at the end of this movie is the perfect indicator that you can

look at this movie as a fairy tale. it doesn't have to be like, oh, well, I mean, clearly he would, that would have, his fall would have killed him there. You know what I mean? Like, you, if you want to get into, like, whether or not he would be more injured in the taxi cab accident, like, you could. But I tend to look at this more as, like, kind of, I don't know if it's like a metaphor, an allegory movie, but it is definitely, like, a little bit of a fairy tale. Plus, you root for a team that, uh, the Sixers always have third act problems. So you're used to that. Okay. Want to do this? Two strong acts and then a third act issue. So this is home for you almost. I would settle for two strong acts from my teams. I can't

criticize Chris. Bill, I want to ask you something off top. This is an incredible birthday movie for you. Because you just celebrated a birthday, as we know. Yeah. I thought it was like an interesting choice that you chose the game as your first post-birthday rewatchables. Well, especially it's a birthday movie. Doesn't get enough credit for being a birthday present. He's three years younger than me in this movie, which is crazy because I feel like he's 10 years older than me, Michael Douglas, as he's in the movie, but he's allegedly celebrating his 48th movie. No, we're going to have to do all the Finchers. So I think if we're ever going to do the game, it makes sense to do it after seven because there's some weird similarities with it, actually. A lot of it is during night

and then dark and just sleek movements and weird characters popping up and twists and turns and somebody who's basically under duress as the lead. And this is, you know, the last great Michael Douglas movie. He moves into a different stage of his career. I'm just going to rip off the run one more time. This is from 84 on. Romance in the Stone, Jewel the Nile, chorus line, fatal attraction, Wall Street, Black Rain, War of the Rose's Basic Instinct, Falling Down, Disclosure, America president goes to darkness the game. All of those succeeded in some form. And this is the last time he plays a variation of this kind of character before he moves

into the traffic Wonder Boys stage of his career. This is like basically a Wall Street sequel, but not really, where it's like a Gordon Gecko type guy, not as rich and powerful as Gordon Gecko, but in the ballpark and his life's unraveling, which is the theme of a lot of Michael Douglas' movies, unraveling. Normal guy, typical America male may be successful, but he's unraveling. Do you see that, Sean? Does this make sense for him as the last Douglas major in his prime film? Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you're on the money.

I mean, he does go on to make meaningful movies, but those movies are not these sort of like mainstream entertainments where you were showing up for Michael Douglas. You know, Michael, movies were sold on Michael Douglas' face, his persona, his history. And, you know, you've talked about it on other episodes of the show. He's got this crazy history. He's a TV star in the 70s. He's obviously the son of Kirk Douglas. And he's also a producer.

He won an Oscar in his 30s for producing One Flo Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And so he's this pretty legendary Hollywood figure. And in real time, he happens to, like, become a major movie star in his 40s and then sustains this image of the successful. but also vulnerable white male wealthy figure. And it's interesting the way that almost all the movies he chose were about violations of that persona. You know, like from falling down to basic instinct to fatal attraction, these were guys who had everything but were put in peril and had it taken away from them.

Usually it's by a woman, but sometimes it was about the system and sometimes it was about, you know, an up-and-comer like Bud Fox trying to take it all away from him. And this one is so interesting because, as Chris is saying, it's like kind of an allegory. for movie making, but this is like what would happen if a movie happened to a guy. You know, this whole movie is just a movie happening to him and then setting up special effects and stunts and, you know, surprise endings and twists. And they're all happening to this one guy who seems to have everything until he encounters this movie machine, really.

Yeah, he's such a unique movie star in modern ways because so few of our contemporary movie stars would be willing to be this unlikable for this long. most of the roles that Michael Douglas is best known for, he is not like a hero. He is not a good guy. I mean, I guess romancing the stone is a little bit more of a typical matinee idol type of thing. But for the most part, he was kind of known for playing shitlords, often named Nick from San Francisco. And, you know, you go through that list of these are the huge, huge movies. These are extensions of a kind of Reagan-Aral Largesse that was happening in this country. but he was a huge star, you know, admired by men, beloved by women, on the cover of People magazine, all that stuff, and was routinely playing dickheads.

Right. And then Affleck weirdly becomes the successor for at least some of these parts, like the 21st century version. But now I don't know who Michael Douglas is. You told me in 2020, who's the Michael Douglas guy who, you know, we saw like Costner's not, I'm not saying he's like Michael Douglas, but he had his own kind of lane where it's like, oh, that's a Costner part. And then if somebody else is playing it, like Dennis Quaid, you'd be like, ah, he's playing a Costner part.

And Douglas, I felt like he had the same way, but I don't really know who that is now. Maybe he doesn't exist, the person. Or maybe it's an actress. No, I think it's that. These kinds of roles move to TV with the anti-hero era of TV. So, I mean, Don Draper is a Michael Douglas part.

Totally. That's a good point. Yeah, is this, Is Nicholas kind of a pseudo-anti-hero? Like, we're not really supposed to like him, right? They set up in the first 20 minutes, it's like, all right, this guy's a dick. You want to talk about what's unbelievable about this movie is I don't understand how enough people like this guy to participate in this thing. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like Nicholas has been this way for quite a long time.

So it's kind of the only question I have about this film really is. So all these people still liked him enough to be like, yes, I will participate in a week-long, immersive theater experience for this guy. Sean, what was that phone call like, do you think? Like, if I called you and like, hey, I'm going to spend about $12 million to play a little prank on Chris, and I have 300 people involved. What would your first question be? I need 300 people.

What's your first question? I would be confused as to why 300 people were called before me if you were going to play a $12 million prank on Chris. I would hope I would be call number one. Yeah, you went. You went, actually. That's fair. Yeah, you went.

So we're going to drain his bank accounts. We're going to put him in paris. He's going to wake up in a tomb in Mexico. What else can we do? We're going to pretend I get shot and be like, cool, cool. I'll tell Jeff Chow. We'll get him. Like, how does this go?

I think it's, I think there's so many narrative nitpicks that we could and probably should make throughout the movie. Because it's impossible to conceive of this as like a logical thing that happened in the world to a person. I think it makes more sense if you think about this whole movie the way that people have described it in the past, which is like as Scrooge. You know, he's Ebenezer Scrooge. And he's basically like being visited by these spirits that are trying to remind him. that he's a human being in the world and that he needs to be more decent. And it's a ghost of Christmas past, present and future kind of experience for the Nick character. And so, like, Ebenezer Scrooge doesn't really get any humanity throughout that story either.

You know, you never really are like, you know, Ebenezer's really going to round the corner here and turn out to be a really good dude and take care of a tiny Tim or whatever. You know, he's a prick. He's an awful guy. And it's okay, I think, to sometimes have an awful guy at the center of a story like this so long as the story is propulsive. and you have this like Twilight's own style. Twilight's own episodes are the same way. Most of the time the character in the center of the story is like kind of a dick or a person that has happened, something is happening to them and they're confused, but you don't necessarily

love them. You're just confused. So I think it's okay. If it were Chris, I don't know, I don't think Chris would appreciate this. Chris, would you appreciate this happening to you? It depends on what you guys did to me. It depends. I mean, I guess I'm assuming you guys are orchestrating this.

It depends on what was done to me. if it was really making me think that several people hated me, that I was going to be brought down in scandal, that loved ones were dying in front of me. I think I would have a hard time being like, let's crack open a champagne bottle at the end of it. I think I might have a couple of choice words for you. There are some variations of the game.

I think that the game is tailored to, like what they say in the beginning of the movie, it is what you need it to be. And so they do all these psychological tests and talk to the people in your life, and they figured that Nicholas needed to be shaken out of his bourgeois upper-class existence and brought down into the streets that were right outside of his door. Chris, I'm going to tell you something.

Sean and I, we've been waiting to tell you for a couple years. The last three years of the Sixers, it was all the game. We convinced them to do the Tatum trade. Horford. Brian Colangelo is actually Conrad Van Orton. Yeah, Brian Colangelo, he was in on it, the whole thing. still the president of the team. We bought and paid for the process.

Happy birthday, Chris. Thanks, guys. But you make a good point, Sean, about this is like a Twilight Zone. Like, how many movies aren't realistic? One of the reasons I love this movie as a rewatchable is every time I watch it, I get annoyed by, oh, come on, he would have known by then. Or you're just like, it's like a nitpick rewatchable's. But it's no less realistic than like Aquaman.

Right. Oh, yeah. You know, or Gone Girl. Like it's not like Gone Girl was realistic. She shows up covered in blood at the end. It's like, oh, man, all right, now they're going to live together. Like, that movie's not realistic. None of these movies we like are realistic.

So I would like to introduce like a sort of sub-tier of rewatchable on this pod, which is there are some movies, I would say a lot of the comedies that we do, like, you know, whether it's like old school or 48 hours or, you know, something like Midnight Run. And then there are movies like Heat that obviously are just passion projects of ours, where if that movie was getting one of those HBO runs where they're on every day for two weeks, three weeks, you could kind of see yourself cumulatively watching it like three, four times in 10 days and not be like bored. I think that the game, and to some extent seven, exist in a world where you want to give it a couple years

in between viewings. You want to let like the mystery build back up, like the suspension of disbelief build back up. Some of your nerve endings need to regrow so that you can be a little surprised by certain moments in it. Because if you, If you were to watch the game like three times in 10 days, I think you would probably follow flat. But rewatching it for this, I was like, God damn, this is like high grade, high test shit that they're working with. And a lot of it did surprise me after a few years.

Plus the fincher piece of it where even if it's a flawed movie like this, it's still like going to the awesome restaurant. Yeah, I would look at that cheeseburger coming out of the oven. Yeah, everything's been meticulously thought out. The service is perfect. and maybe they talked you into some Brandzino you didn't really want, but the whole experience was amazing. Every Fincher thing is like that.

I think that's why we have so much respect for him on this. Panic Room is a great example of that, right? I don't feel like Panic Room totally worked, but I always end up watching pieces of it if I stumble across it because some of the shit he does in that movie, it's just incredible. It's almost like a hero ball director performance. He's just like, we're going to drill into the wall.

I'm going to fucking actually go into the wall with my camera and some weird shit's going to happen. And I just don't know anybody else who would do it that way. There's also a couple of things you can always count on with his movies, right? So even if, and at the beginning of his career, he is kind of associated with these surprise or trick endings. The first few movies are really kind of, you know, revolve around that. But he always gets great performances. His movies always look great. This is going to seem oversimplified, but they're just eminently watchable.

Like the point that you guys are making. It's just like, it's very hard to turn them off. And even if this story doesn't totally work, you want to stick with it. I will say, though, Chris, to the point that you're making, I watched this movie a week ago, and then I watched it for a second time last night. And it did not nearly work as well watching it for that second time in seven days. It's a slow opening 45 minutes if you know what's happening. If you know every scene that's coming, it takes a while for him to get through CRS to have the dinner

with Conrad to get all the way through it. and then the game to start. I had the same experience. I watched it two weeks ago with my wife. And then for some reason, didn't take notes and had to watch it again. And the second time, I'm like, all right. It's going to get back from Mexico to say,

you know, it definitely drags in some spots. But technically, it's just high, high level. I want to ask you guys this because I think it would, otherwise it could permeate all the categories. But watching this, so this movie's made in 97. is this among the last pre-smart phone thrillers? That, you know, you basically cannot make this movie. Google comes out like what, like 99.

You cannot make this movie with a search engine, much less a smartphone. I mean, you can say anything you want about them being able to hack into all of his accounts and change this and change that and maybe like mirror so that if he was Googling something, CRS would have a mock website that seemed pretty,

pretty okay. But I was struck by thinking about how every single thing I do from like going to get a taco to, you know, ordering a sweatshirt is pretty much run through the internet either I need directions. I need this. I need that. And that this movie is right up at the edge of when that wasn't the case. That he still is going to his personal attorney to say, look into this company for me rather than just Googling it. Well, even when he finds James Redhorn near the end, right, he ends up going to a Chinese restaurant. Yeah. And notices him on the wall when he would just be Googling that dude.

He's looking in the yellow pages for that Chinese restaurant. It would have been taking two seconds. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's a really good point. The late 90s, there are a lot of this would never happen 10 year later movies. And Blair Witch is a good example, too. They just wouldn't have been able to even market that movie successfully because we all

would Google that and found out it was not what it meant to be. I think for the viewer and for the movies itself, Midnight Run is a great one. I mean, when was that, 1989? Yeah. 1990. It's just how important pay phones are in that movie compared to just how life operates now. It's an entirely cash business. Like all of Midnight Run is cash.

Douglas said, Douglas really liked this movie. He said what he's most proud of is one of the very few movies where you could not guess the ending. And he said, that's why I'm such a big sports fan. With sports, you can never guess what's going to happen. Most movies you get halfway through, you can kind of guess the ending. the game you could never figure it out. I think I actually agree with that. It swerves a couple times where you're like,

is this a game or it's not a game? And then it's like, wait, this isn't a game. These guys are running a scam on them. And then it's like, oh, it is a game. And then it's like, no, no, actually this isn't a game. What the fuck's going on? And then the big reveal that it's actually a game. But there's a version of this movie

when you're watching it the first time where he shoots Sean Penn and he just goes to jail and probably a mental asylum. And that's it. That's it for Nick. these rich guys basically took his money. So I respect that part of it, at least. Well, they do some interesting things with putting authority figures in front of the Nick character and explaining to them, you know, the cops at one point say, like, we have no motive.

You signed a contract. You are bound by this. You know, he's on the phone with Sutherland explaining about how his money's been drained. And Sutherland says, I just checked. Your money's fine. And then is it like, is he experiencing some sort of psychosis? Is he in this big performance piece? Like, what really, is it really as nefarious as the Debrakehara Unger character is saying? And you don't really find out until you get up into that kind of performance space where you see the cast of characters are all hanging out at the commissary there. And then you're like, oh, this is fucked up. Like, this is really fucked up. Yeah. And I think the brilliant wrinkle for the opening act of this movie is the Sean Penn character. It's Conrad. Because he immediately

establishes himself as a very likable but unreliable narrator. So throughout the movie, you're like, but would his brother really do him like this? But then again, maybe his brother is just like really resents him, but maybe his brother is on drugs again

or maybe as, when Conrad is like, they own me, they've got their claws into me, all that stuff in the car, which is such a great scene. Love that scene. I mean, Penn is remarkable

in this movie. So good. He's so believable as like this type of guy. and because he's the way he is, you're like, I don't really know what to believe about this. If it's a straight, a square brother who's like, oh, Nicholas, I bought you this thing.

You probably think ultimately he's going to be okay. But the Conrad part is a really cool variable. One of my favorite Sean Penn parts. Yeah. You look at Sean Ben's IMDB, especially after this movie, and it just completely goes off the cliff for five years before Mystic River and a couple more days will come back.

he would almost intentionally take weird parts. See, I wanted him to take more of these parts and do more of the Brad Pitt, kind of the one for us, one for him, and then one for just weirdo, weirdo shoppin. And this is like, I don't know. I don't know who would have played this now,

but it would have been somebody trying to have the kind of energy that he has, you know, it would be like Chris Evans. He's going against type. He's playing Conrad, and he's just growing stubble and smoking and just trying to be weird. I don't know.

Sean Penn in this movie has like authentic edge. You know, and he doesn't have to have a crazy accent or a prosthetic or anything like that. He just has the I've Been to Rehab vibe and be kind of kid. A little like Falcon and the Snowman, Sean Penn, remember? Yeah, and also state of grace, Sean Penn. Like it has a little bit of state of grace. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's like it's very similar to all of his best performances where he just seems just off somehow.

You know, Carlito's Way, casualties of war, like, the performances of his where you're like, is there something wrong with this guy or is there something wrong with the system? Like, what's really going on here? I wish he had kind of stayed in this cohort of director. I wish he had worked more with Fincher, with Tarantino, with Soderberg. Like, I wish that those were the people that he chose to make movies with. He shows up in this really, really, really funny cameo and being John Malcovich at the end of it, where he, you know, after John Malcovic becomes a puppeteer,

Sean Penn also decides to become a puppeteer, and he's like poking fun at himself in this documentary. And, you know, we know that Spike Jones and Fincher, they're buddies. Spike Jones shows up in this movie. Like, there's a version of his career where he's less worried about being the center of the movie and more interested in just having fun and kind of like being a chaos agent in movies that I wish we had gotten. Yeah, even those kind of the worm and rounders type roles,

Exactly. I'm just always in when Sean Penn is being that guy. Fincher said this movie, he said movies usually make a pact with the audience that says, we're going to play it straight. What we show you is going to add up, but we don't do that. And he said, this movie's about movies, how movies do a lot of information. And it's about loss of control. He seems like he'd be like an interesting hang for a three-hour dinner.

I bet he would be intense. Yeah. He's like, hey, what are you working on? I'm working on this movie about a loss of control and how things aren't what they seem. Like, cool, pass the potatoes. By all accounts, though, he has this incredibly funny, dark, dark sense of humor.

It sounds like he's, you know, he's obviously very, very intelligent, but you can see in conversations with him, he's very sarcastic, he's very erudite, he's got a great vocabulary. Like, he's a really bright dude. Is that your audition to get him

for a three-part big picture by-paster? David, call me. Please call me, David. Raj, Roger Ebert. Mixed bag for him during the pandemic. He's been all over the map. Three and a half stars out of four for this one. Quote, one of the refreshing things,

it stays true to its paranoid vision right up until what seems like the very end and then beyond it. So by the time the real ending arrives, it's not the payoff and release as much as the final macabre twist of the knife. Raj, digging it. $70 million budget made $109 million.

I don't think this movie was considered a success. I think it was respected. There were also a lot of movies coming out in this 96, 97, 98, 99 range. And maybe if it comes out in 2003, you know, a little later when things started to shift, maybe it'll have been a little better off. We're going to do the category. It's taking one quick break, though. Let's take a break to talk about Heineken.

Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. if you thought a cold, crisp summer hyniquin was something, just wait until you taste the Heineken fall lineup, autumn lineup, whatever you want to call it, fall, autumn, your choice. Is there a new product? No. It's just the same great tasting lager that's perfect for any season.

One of the classiest beers around. Classy since I was a little kid. If somebody had a Heineken, you're like, oh, man, they're feeling themselves. They're taking beer seriously right now. Hineken original lager is made with Pure Malt and their famous A-East, which makes Hineken in all-season all the time kind of beer. So pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style. And drink responsibly. All right, the categories, most rewatchable scene.

Douglas and Sean Penn have lunch. So it brings you to town, Conrad. Everything all right? Yeah. Eat anything. Really? No, I don't need anything. from you. I just found myself

laying naked on a beach near Abiza and all of a sudden it clicked. October 12. Mickey's birthday. October 11th. Whatever. This fucking Sean Pan's just throwing heat. Isn't that also when Sean Penn's like I bought meth off the matre d? I remember being here a long

time ago. Yeah, I took you here once. No, I used to buy crystal meth off the matre d. Oh, really? In college. Which college? Tush. He's throwing heat. The TV starts talking to Nicholas. I was like when weird shit likes to happen.

I was like, oh, whoa, okay. This is going to be a weird movie. What is this? This is your game, Nicholas. And welcome to it. I'm here to let you in on a few ground rules. You receive the very first key and others will follow. You'll never know where you'll find them or how you'll need to use them.

So keep your eyes open. How do you... You can see me? Let's say the question is still afterwards. The car scene with them when it's starting unravel. There's a good chase scene with Debra Care Unger. That includes them climbing walls to get away from dogs and jumping into a dumpster, which leads me to my question.

It's never not fun when somebody gets chased by a vicious dog. And it's never not fun when somebody has to jump into the dumpster. And they never get hurt when they jump into the dumpster. dumpster. I'm still waiting for the dumpster jump where it's like, yeah, filled with beer bottles and it's just person's getting impaled. Anyways, never happens in movies.

The presidential suite scene when he goes in there and it's just fucking... Who among us, right? Yeah, it's just brutal. I love that entire sequence, though, the entire sequence of the presidential suite with the pickpocket moment,

the guy bumping it, brushing up against him, the way that the guy at the front desk of the hotel is like, hello again. You know, like, yeah. He's like, what? You already have your room, Kate. I do. Everything is just building and building and building.

And then when he gets, you're like, what's going to be in this hotel room? And it's like, ah, yes. Coke and porn. Yeah. The cab travel. You, see, CR, you travel with porn, right? Whenever you're checking into a hotel room, you bring a video. I always call ahead.

I call ahead for a VHS player. Yeah. That's like Paul knows 40-year-old virgin character. My personal stash of a ronica. Boner jams, 06. The cab driver scene's really good when he has to jump out of the cab. And then I'm just the ending, I'm just lumping together, which to me is most rewatchable. Basically, from the moment, he brings Rebhorn up and sees basically this 300-person cafeteria scene all the way through to the end.

I'm in. That's my favorite part. What about you guys? I love when he returns back to his house and he finds the graffiti. and we hear White Rabbit for the first time. Had that for one stage the best. How do you think they did the graffiti? I guess there's just a kind of paint

that you can buy that is only lights fluorescently, but I mean, the staging of that scene is so cool. And you can hear the music blaring out of speakers. You really are like in that space with him. This is a very memorable sequence in the movie. Chris? Yeah, the Debrachara Unger, the sort of main chase sequence,

I think, is my most rewatchable scene. scene, especially when he's, they're running around CRS and then leave, ending with after the chase, they go back there with the cops and it's empty. Gosh, you know, I really am a big fan of both Armand-Muller stall scenes, the one in Seattle where he dresses him down and then the next one where he throws all the Polaroids at him. I really want to do that to you, Bill. Like, you have to, like, I want to get wind that you're taking me off the watch and just like burst into your house with my personal attorney and just started throwing polarites at you.

Is this your idea of getting me off the watch? When we replaced you with Rosario Dawson on the watch, we whipping Polaroids at me. I want to talk about the ending later because I have some unanswerable questions. So hold that thought. Wait, can I pitch one more scene?

Yeah. I think, well, all the scenes where he's like asking questions about what the game is, like when he meets the guys the club and then he starts asking them questions when they're sitting down and kind of engaging and trying to get answers out of people like all of or every scene where he's talking to Deborah Kare Unger about what's going on but then um gosh what is there there's like one key one there's

well there's the whole report eating chinese food yeah yes the the first redhorn scene i think is the most entertaining part of the movie may i make two suggestions you really think that i'll participate without knowing any first admit to yourself that it sounds intriguing second you don't have to decide today take the silly test fill out the stupid forms one day your game begins you either love it or hate it decide then you know you know we're like an experiential book of the month you can drop out at any time with no further obligation that was my sales pitch that whole sequence is my that's that is my most rewatchable scene my my most rewatchable scene is the slow-mo of Michael Douglas playing racquetball.

Yeah, Michael, I had this for an answer to questions. Let's do it now. Michael Douglas, good athlete? No. Mediocre athlete or bad athlete? I'm saying bad athlete. If he was a good athlete, he's a little bit past his prime years. The baggy untucked white shirt with his while he plays racquetball. I'm sure Fincher was like this visually looks good, but to me, I'm like, I don't think the men ever wore shirts like that while performing sports, except for like Italian He's rockabball and Wall Street. Doesn't he play racquetball or squash on Wall Street too? There's been some running scenes with him where I've been a little dubious of him.

I don't know whether there may be some torn cartilage from when he was a kid or what's going on. But something about the way he moves. He's also a pretty old school man. He came up in the stuntman does the work. He wasn't Keanu, like learning how to do this stuff. What's age the best? We mentioned Sean Penn. I love when Nicholas splits the final bill with Conrad.

We're going to get into how much the bill costs later. But that whole scene, you want to split it? The way they look at it, all that stuff's awesome. Fun to see the Ritz Carlton, San Francisco in here. It's not changed. One iota. Iconic San Francisco Hotel. The graffit house we mentioned.

I love any movie when a character whispers to another character, they're watching. It always pays off. And I also like when somebody says, now you've done it. Now you've done it is great. Now you've done it as you know something. Now you've done it is a big horror movie trope.

When that happens in a horror movie, you know it's about to go ape shit. That would be a good title for our podcast. We should file away. Now you've done it for something later. Last one stage the best for me. I'm just going to let C.R. cook here. I'm just going to put the ingredients out.

You just step in front of the oven. Debra Kare Unger What happened here? Why wasn't she a bigger star? Just knowing you from we've known each other now for 10 years, we've done a lot of movie pods together, I'm just guessing. She's right in C.R.'s wheelhouse.

So what happened? I mean, another graduate from the Dana-Willer-Nickleson finishing school, another anxious blonde that I'm just incredibly into. I don't know what happened to her, you know? I think that if you were, going to casting whatever recasting couch. I really do wonder what happens with this movie if there's somebody else playing this part. But I happen to... We'll be getting to that. I happen to be long on her vibe. Let's just put it that way. I enjoy it. Long, you say. Yeah, like I'm not shorting it. I like that.

I see. Interesting choice of words. Sean, any Debra Kara Unger thoughts? I like the story about how she came to be cast in this movie, which is... What is it? Fincher and Michael Douglas get an audition tape from her. It's a real. It's not even really an audition tape. And it's just one of the sex scenes from the David Cronenberg movie Crash, which is a very twisted movie about people who like to have sex during car crashes, among other things. And they were like, sounds good. Bring her on in. She's the gal for us, which tells you a lot about Fincher, a lot about Michael Douglas, and a lot about Deborah Kara Unger and the kind of movies that she was making at that time. And it also tells a lot about me because I saw that during the research

and I thought that was a bullshit story. So we think that's a real story? I don't know. Would that, would you put a fast feature? That didn't even make my half-ass internet research. I love that story. I mean, I hope it's true. It's really funny.

You guys have seen Crash, right? I hope. I have seen Crash. Yeah. That movie is fucking bananas. Like flat out bananas. I can't even imagine what would happen if Netflix just threw that

on its main screen as like the featured movie, people be like, what is this? What's happened to my life? Craig, don't watch that movie with Liz. If you see Crash, 9-196. It'll change your opinion of David Spader, James Spader. James Spader, and maybe each other.

What's age the worst? Oh, do you have any other What's Age the best for me before we move on? Yeah, I mean, I just want to say to follow up on your Ritz Carlton thing, Fincher shooting, the Bay Area, does never a bad thing. He's obviously, it's his home base, so he has a really incredible feel for that city

and making it cinematic. Finchers' fascination with like underground or underworld hidden societies, like things that are happening in plain view, but are something's different about them. So whether it's like the college clubs and social network,

Fight Club is obviously a secret society, and just the idea that this could all be happening in front of us, utilizing all this stuff that we take for granted, like, hotel lobbies and, you know, our phone records and our bank accounts and everything else and that they could orchestrate something like this is Prime Fincher. He's definitely, if the Jeffrey Epstein movie ever happens.

Oh, Jesus. That's Fincher. That's 17 different things that he's touched on in different movies. I also think he's very jealous of eyes wed shut. That's like whatever the fuck Kubrick was trying to do in that movie. I'm sure Finch is like, oh, yeah. I got it. What stage is the worst?

I have a lot of nitpicks that I could have been in what stage the worst, but I'm not going to put him in here. I think the movie legitimately drags after he wakes up in Mexico and they could have caught a couple scenes. And it just maybe don't have them in Mexico. Maybe put him in San Bernardino and we could have moved 10 minutes faster. Finch are not liking this movie. Deborah Kerr Ungers, IMD, after this movie,

I think has been on what's age the worst. This was really the peak for her. And I don't know. Anything else for you guys? Personally,

and this movie probably didn't violate this rule back then, but I have a rule now. I'm out on Super 8 footage as flashbacks. Okay. It breaks the

sort of tone of the movie. He goes back to it way too often. Like, I feel like I got it. Your dad killed yourself. It's a bummer. Like, it definitely, like, it definitely, he repeats it as like a sort of visual motif over and over again. I feel like I understand because it makes the ending and the fall kind of poetically resonant. But it's very unfincher. I almost felt like, was this something he was told to add in because we didn't sympathize with Nick, Nicholas, because we don't know why he's such a prick. So we have to show his remote father committing suicide. But I don't like the Super 8, the Super 8 execution of it. Yeah, they didn't need to show that he was a prick. His name was Nicholas. That's it.

That's all I need to know. Who the fuck has the name, Nicholas? Casting what ifs. Sean, wait, Sean, do you have any of what's the worst? Oh, yeah. No. That was a very good call, Chris. Thanks, man.

Great job, Chris. Good job. You recovered from the Seven Sixers'ers' show. from the top. Casting what ifs. This movie was originally supposed to happen in 1992, and a director named Jonathan Mastow was going to be the director with Kyle McLaughlin and Bridget Fonda as the leads.

Thank God that didn't happen because I'm not, just not a huge Kyle. In 92, that's just like, also that's, that's peak de Mornay. That's right when you go for Rebecca D'Morne for that part. Fonda was red hot there for about two years, though. What was Mastow's big movie? I don't even know. He did a movie called Breakdown.

with Kurt Russell and Kathleen Quinlan and J.T. Waltz. That's a pretty good thriller. And I think he eventually went on to make like a Terminator movie. He made a submarine movie too at some point. He made U.571, I think. Yeah. I think John Bon Jovi's in that one. Yeah.

Unbelievable J.T. Walsh in that movie. And Breakdown. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That and Blue Chips are probably my two favorite J.T. Walsh's other than two good men. You don't like a few good men? We owe two.

Few Good Men's number one. But I mean, those are the runner-up choices. Yeah. Happy Kikindale in Blue Chips. That's a tough, tough character name. Yeah. 96 con film festival, Polygram had the game at that point. They announced Jody Foster would be starring with Michael Douglas in the game,

directed by David Fincher in the Sean Penn part. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's interesting. Fincher apparently was uncomfortable with. Foster being in it, thought she was too big of a star, thought it needed to be a supporting cast, which is weird because Sean Penn was also a giant star. Something weird happened, and she ended up suing Polygram for like $54 million, and it was a whole thing for like a year in the Hollywood trades that they basically Fincher got rid of her. Then the role Conrad was offered to Jeff Bridges,

who I feel like is too close to Michael Douglas's age. I don't feel like that would be a younger brother. So anyway, he declined. Sean Pan is cast instead and the rest is history. Best That Guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. James Redhorn counts as, James Redhorn counts as that guy, right?

I mean, this entire cast is that guy's coming out of our ears. So I left, I have the three final as him. Peter Donot as attorney, Dan, who's, you could see in the Godfather to commission hearings. And apparently he was the

he was the runner-up choice for Tom Hagan before it went to Deval, which I thought was an amazing tidbit. And then there's that guy who has the like the scar on his face, like the long scar and then you see him in the final scene. It's Tommy Flanagan. Yeah.

Tommy Flanagan from Sons of Anarchy. Yeah, he's one of those guys. The cab driver. Cab driver? Yeah, well, no, well, gosh, there's, I mean like Linda Manns is in this movie randomly. Right.

She shows up as the roommate from from Days of Heaven. and I mean, that's... The private investigator in this movie is also the guy who gives Somerset all the library files in seven. So he also winds up on Suns Van Arkey, I believe. Yes, Mark Boone Jr.

Yeah. I think it's Rebhorn because I never knew what his name was until I had to do the research for his movie. I always knew him as that guy from this movie and talented Mr. Ripley and a bunch of other ones, but I didn't totally know. But he's been in a million things.

Crushes it incentive of a woman. as like the headmaster. Oh, yeah. And he's been, he's been, uh, Claire Daines's dad on Homeland, right? Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

James, Ray career. Let's give it to him. The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for overacting. Uh, this has said completely out of love. Sean Penn dials it up four or five different times in big, big, big, big, big,

with all the top ways, with all the keys in his hands. With all the key, yeah. I don't know about those. Somebody put him in the car. The guy and the whole thing. What are you talking? You brought them to me. These were in your car.

They're right there in your fucking car! Conrad! It's great. He's amazing in this movie. They just fuck you and they fuck you and they fuck you and then just when you think it's all over, that's when the real fucking starts. So fucked.

They just fuck you and they fuck you and they fuck you and then just when you think it's all over, that's where the real fucking starts. I calm down, just take a breath. He's just out of his mind. I loved it. I loved it. Deanne Waiter's Award.

It's a tough one. Sean Penn, not eligible. Who do you guys have? Sean Penn's not eligible because he's only in three scenes, though. You're going to take him off the board? Is he in three scenes? Because he's in lunch, he's in lunch, then he meets him in his car, and then he's at the very end. I mean, I know what my pick is.

Well, Sean Penn is eligible. I think Chris is right. What do you have, Sean? Even without Sean Penn, it's Daniel Shore. the newscaster, who is a pretty important person in American history, you know, who was on the original team of Edward Armorrow reporters on television, who was a big time television reporter during Watergate, and who is a figure of like American news history, who like kind of pivoted at the way end of his career and started showing up in movies as a newscaster and is really good

in this part as this newscaster. And that's really like you were saying earlier, Bill, that's when the movie kind of switches on. It's really good, too, because if this is like Wolf Blitzer or Dan Rather, it's just, it doesn't work. But with this guy, it's like this, yeah, he would be watching this, this sort of buttoned up financial news, nightly news program. David Muir could have pulled it off. Sure.

All right. Yeah, I don't think, I feel like Penn shouldn't be eligible to Dan Williams. If you guys do the game on me, get Mure. Bill, if you do the game on me, get David Muir involved somehow. I will. I'll call him right now. Probably end up with Josh Elliott

just to save some money in the final bill. Oh, wow. What's David Muir's asking price for pulling a huge prank on Chris? Have you guys watched CBS News recently? At least a million. A million. Wow.

What is it? What's on CBS News? Do you guys watch CBS Nightly News ever? No. I'm not 85 years old, so no. He's so serious where he's just like, in Iowa, a 90 car pie up. I'm like, this is not news. That's a traffic accident. But that like leads it. It like leads

the show. Recasting couch. So Wesley and I did a whole pot about Unfaithful. That was really just an excuse to talk about Diane Lane for like a half hour. If you put Diane Lane in this movie over Deborah Carrunger, it's a better movie. And I'm more invested. And I actually think it's kind of the perfect Diane Lane part and the kind of part she should have been trying to play. that would be my case. That's a tough beat for Debrica Runger to have one truly great role and for you to have recaster.

That's not great. The rewatchable can be a cold place from time to time. Who would you recast Nicholas as, if you could? Instead of Penn? No, Nicholas. I like Denzel.

Denzel. I think Denzel would have been so interesting. Yeah. I feel like, Denzel is the rare guy who can do this similar kind like he's not a good guy, but you're still really interested in his journey.

You know, he's played a lot of flawed guys like this too. I don't know. Worst case scenario, Bill Murray. Yeah. He already is scroached. Worst case scenario would be heat De Niro.

Because Debrichara Unger would spill the drinks on him. Like, lady, why are you spilling cocktails in my suit? Why are you so interested in what I'm reading? What if we've, what if we put on metals? What if we put Pacino in the Sean Penroll?

Did that work? Oh, with de-aging, de-aging makeup. Can you imagine Neil McCauley in the first CRS interview where James Rebhorn is like asking him? He's like, why are you so interested in what I do? It's a book about medics. I had coffee with Conrad at half an hour ago. Half-ass internet research.

So the producer, Steve Golem, bought the script, bought the script from MGM, gave it to Fincher. Fincher liked the plot twist, and then recruited Andrew Kevin Walker, the writer from Seven. And they did some rewrites of the script. Spike Jones is one of the paramedics in the last scene. And then the Criterion Laser Disc features an alternate ending where Nicholas Van Orrin comes out of the hotel, declines a taxi, and just walks away.

which is crazy because the good ending is so good. I wouldn't even have the alternate ending anywhere. You can watch it on the Blu-ray. It's really bad and makes no sense. They made a good choice. You know who the other paramedic is, though, in that scene next to Spike Jones, is Richard Massey, who is the guy in seven

who runs the prostitution shop, who's interviewed and they're like, do you like what you do for a living? And he's like, no, I don't. That guy. Chris, Andrew Kevin Walker, two weeks and a while. It's all leading to 8mm next week. Kill the ball machine.

Apex Mountain. You should do 8mm solo, Bill. You should just do it like castaway. You should pretend like I'm there, but I just never talk because I'm in a gypsuit the entire time. I keep throwing it to you. I keep throwing it to you saying you have technical difficulties.

Apex Mountain. Douglas No. Douglas No. Apex Mountain. Sean Penn, no. Debrae Carunger DQU definitely yeah for sure Fischer no

Debra Careyre Unger man Yeah Law and Order DKU Oh man Pre-Silicon Valley San Francisco movies Is this the last good one Using the location

Zodiac is probably I put above this Yeah but that's going Yeah I guess that's going backwards But like in a tight you're going in the 70s with that. I would say Bullet is up there, right? What is some other good San Francisco movies?

Oh, this wasn't the best San Francisco movie. I just think this is the last San Francisco movie before Silicon Valley takes shape. Yeah, I mean, Nicholas Van Orton definitely invests in Facebook five days, like, you know, five years later or something. Yeah. Apex Mountain for Johnny's Coffee Shop,

or would you go with another movie? It's a pretty good one. So for the listeners, Johnny's Coffee Shop is this diner on Wilshire and like Fairfax and it's empty. It does not have customers. It does not have a staff or chefs, but it gets used as a movie set in literally dozens of movies over the years, right? Many films. It's a cross story from Lackma for the Angelinos.

And that's the place he shows up at when he comes back from Mexico, right? Right. Any other Apex Mountains? James Rebhardt. That might be a cheeseburger on film Apex Mountain. Is that cheeseburger he's about to eat for his birthday? What's your perfect birthday meal? Oh, man.

Someone's making you a meal. Bill, you just had a birthday. Like, what, what, it's anything you want in the world. Is it a hamburger and a cupcake? So my mom made, uh, Brajals and Stuff Shels for my birthday. Brajals are the, my mom is an unbelievable cook, but that's the single best thing she makes. And it's the most kind of underrated Italian delicacy.

Do you know what it is? No. It's like sausage? It's like rolled up steak with raisins and bread inside. You have to cook it for hours. You have to make it in string and then cut the string after you make it. but you also have it in the sauce with like the meatballs

and the sausage, stuff like that. And it's, so that was, that was my birthday dinner. Brajals. Also known in movies where they say, don't bust my Brajols. Chris,

what's your birthday, Neil? Italian guy said that. What's my? Yeah, Chris, what do you got? Sweet greens. No,

if it's just, if I, if it's my birthday, I mean, I kind of want to say like the favorite meal of the year's Thanksgiving. That's like my favorite flavors. And I would love to do that. Like if I was going to also whip me something up, I would just get the stuffing going, get the turkey going.

Like I'd love that. But what about you, Sean? You want like some turkey with a side of DKU. You're saying. Yeah, you know, I'm a simple person, right? Just love nice flame and yon. you know, some perfectly whipped mashed potatoes. Yeah.

Yeah, now you're talking. Maybe some asparagus, right? Nice glass of brown liquor. I'm good to go. Fantasy football is back and you don't want your team to suck. My favorite fantasy football punishment I've ever heard is the last place guy had to spend 24 hours in a waffle house and every waffle he ate was one hour off of his count. I want numbers.

How many did he end up eating? 12 waffles and 12 hours. I'm Danny Hyattitz. I'm Danny Kuyifitz. I'm Danny Kelly. And I'm Craig Horlebeck. We host the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on the Ringer podcast network. To avoid eating 12 waffles in a Waffle House, follow the Ringer Fantasy Football Show on Spotify.

Picking Nets. Is it that easy to drain a multi-millionaire's money accounts? So what do you think is happening? How much of it is we're redirecting phone calls, we're intercepting kind of communication versus, like I just always felt like he never gets through to Switzerland when he calls. that bank, right? It's like he's using a phone. They've probably tapped it. They've got some software on it. So I don't think that they're like, yeah, we drained your bank account. I think they've told Conrad he's going to eventually find out about this. And you have to, that's when

like the whole thing happens with like you're, you know, you've been paying into them. And it's, it's this blackmail scheme. I'm guessing they redirected his phone calls so that anytime he made a call, it went somewhere else other than where he was calling. What's up with him actually reading his account numbers on the phone in front of Deborah Kara Unger? Nobody would ever do that. You would call, you would have some sort of password with the people. They would verify everything from your end. They would never have you say anything.

It's a flaw. I'll willingly tell Rwatchable's listeners now that my Chase Bank account is not, the password is not notorious, D.K.U. Right. Well, that's the other thing. they do all the psychological tests allegedly so that they can guess all his passwords. Seems dicey.

He gets out of Mexico really, really easily. He's no money. He looks like he's just falling off a train. I don't know how they arrange that. When I watch it, when I watch it twice and three weeks, I'm like, how the fuck did he get out of Mexico? And how did he get from point A to point B

without money and what happened here? It's kind of skipped over. Had they get him into Mexico, is what I want to know. How long was he roofied if he's in Mexico for like, it's at least like four or five hours to get there, six hours since San Francisco? Weird.

What happens if Douglas just drowns in the cab? That's the biggest one. I assume they have divers, you know? That's what they say that at the end. Okay, yeah. Yeah. So Deborah Carroll-Hunger says that. That's the biggest danger.

How did they shoot at him in Debracare-Hunger's apartment? I assume that that's blanks. Yeah. And that they've got some sort of like firecrackers or something in the walls there. I mean, this is a really elaborate game. I mean, this is where the movie falls apart, the more you start like, wait a second.

Just the budgeting alone. If hedge fund guys ever got a hold of CRS, I would hate to see the cost cutting, you know? What? What happens if Douglas doesn't jump off that specific part of the building? This is, that's the single biggest nitpick. So Rephorne is saying that he was supposed to throw him off, right?

Yes. But he's very far away from him when he actually jumps off. And if he moved over just six to ten feet to the left or the right, he's dead. And then there's a lot of liability for CRS to take on when they've just murdered this hundred millionaire. Yeah, it's also, I think, just an incredible vibe changer when it's like, yeah, you just tried to commit suicide. Like, that's like a, that dinner is different than if Rebhorn throws him and then he's like, I lived. We got you. Have a glass of red.

Let's celebrate. Great game. Yeah. I don't know if it's better to be fake murdered or driven to the point that you jump off a building. How you rally from that 10 minutes later either way is a little, a little strange. Any other nitpicks for this? Yeah. At what point is Armand Mueller-Stahl's character aware?

of what's going on. So when Nicholas first comes to Seattle and dresses him down and is like, you know, I'm basically, I'm firing you. Is he like, yeah, yeah, this is all part of the game, though? I'm just going to retire anyway. You know, you were going to give me this package. Like, that one part is a little bit confusing

because clearly at the end he's there and he's like, this is all pretty weird. But was Nicholas going to fire him? Was he going to take that firing? the same way if he wasn't part of the game. It's very confusing. Maybe he felt the game was liberating for the firing. I have a nitpick about

Armin Mueller-Stall's character, which is he's the publisher of a children's book company, and Nicholas Van Orton, who apparently is worth $300 million, is like really concerned about the future of this company and the stock price. It being two cents off projections. That just seems a little bit much. It has like 80 phone calls about it.

Yeah. he's really pissed. I don't know. That never really clicked for me. Could this be remade as a 10 episode Netflix show? I actually think you could make a case it would have been better as a 10 episode Netflix show. Should it be every week the same character going through it or each episode is a new game? It's, you do it one of two ways, Sean.

You do it either anthology style every, every week a character is going through the game and it's a different one. or you do it as a series, but the series is about the people who work at CRS. Oh, love that. And they're going from Australia to San Francisco to New York. So it's like party down. Yeah. It's like Mission Impossible.

And DKU is like, I don't know, this playing in the game might hurt my chances of getting on a sitcom. Like it would just be, it would be a great workplace drama, but then you also have the game happening. And then maybe like DKU falls for one of the characters or whatever. It would just be, it would be basically a really good D.KU, like, you know.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Seems like you really want to get her in the mix there. I think she's available. I have her probably an answerable question. She's the first one. Why not just Debra Unger? Should we call her? Is it career different?

Is it career different and better if it's just Debra Unger? Or even Debbie Unger? I mean, imagine if Dana Wheeler Nicholson was Dana Nicholson. You could ask the same question. She's probably in Denver West Prada. Yeah, you're right. Did the game cause that dude to actually jump to his death and unsolved mysteries? I don't know if you followed that, the Netflix show.

Neither are you watched that one. No. There was a guy who mysteriously jumped from a tall building in Washington, and one of the theories that came out online was that he was so obsessed with the game, he had convinced himself he was part of the game. Don't know if it's true or not, but it's an unanswerable question. And then finally, most importantly, What was the final bill for the game?

If we were doing prices rate, what would you guess be? Are we adjusting for inflation? Are we talking $97? I'm saying, 1997. What was like the most expensive movie of the 90s? What do you mean? Waterworld. I guess Titanic, ultimately.

But. Oh, so you think it would be like a Waterworld type budget? No, but I think we're talking. Okay, so Nicholas and Conrad split the bill. So that's something that they feel like they can cover with their personal finances at the end of the movie. Right. That's why it can't be like $15 million or $20 million, something like that. But like what's the commercial lease on the CRS office? Let me just very quickly, if Bill, you want to do this for Chris, I'm not splitting the bill with you.

I'm not going to ask. Yeah. I'm going to get Michael Rubin to split the bill with him. after we make Chris the GM but then he's suddenly he's not like, no, no, Chris, we've gotten Doc Rivers but we don't actually have Doc Rivers. You were really like, pop it off considering what happened last night. I'm just angry.

I'm lashing out. Lash out left and right. My fucking team. My team choked. I'm going to say it was like $5 million. Yeah. I think it's got to be in that zone because it's got to be enough

than Michael Douglas' character is like, oh shit. And you know he's got, he's got 300 million, he says. So, five million, that's, that, I think that's, I'm going to agree with a. But so, Conrad Van Orton can just cover a two and a half million dollar bill. I don't think so. I think it's got to be less than that. But what I'm saying is like, I just don't even, I can't even fathom like the overhead that they have on this. Talking about taking out a commercial lease in San Francisco in the late 90s and then abandoning the office the next day. Yeah. Well, what do you think, hundreds of, hundreds of extras? What do you think DQ's day rate is? Her character in this movie, or DQ is like an actress?

Whatever you feel most comfortable talking about. Furthermore, I also think, like, do they, is there a permit process for the game? Or is this, they doing this guerrilla style? Like, do they go through... The cops are like, hey, a cab drove into the ocean. Yeah. No, no, cool, it's a game.

You don't have to investigate this one. We're playing a game. Like a hit squad took out an entire, apartment building with silencer machine guns, but we'll just keep it moving on that one. This was the Clinton era, guys. Deregulation was the order of the day. You could just get away with a lot more at this time. So the game is about NAFTA? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, that's what it is. I think for the Netflix answer, the game would be, each season would be a different elaborate game. And that's how you would do it. And then you could go in a whole

bunch of different worlds and dive into different characters. And the characters that Debra Caronger types would kind of be the stars of the game. But then each year somebody like almost like Chris Rock with Fargo or it's like, oh, this season they'll be doing the game with...

Yeah, and then the season finale would have to be someone who basically beats the game. Somebody who's like somehow upsets like the sort of guardrails that they have in the game. Or maybe somebody gets killed. Who won the movie? I mean, it's hard to say not Douglas.

I mean, like, how... I thought about this last night. I don't know if there's a winner. You know, it's not the best thing that anyone that is associated with this movie has worked on with maybe the exception of DQU. Isn't that weird?

It's not the best Fincher. It's not the best Michael Douglas. But that's not the criteria for winning the movie. I mean, the winning the movie is just like you won the movie. Yeah, there has to be a winner. Yeah.

I understand... But it wouldn't be like in the first five, sentences of any of the people that worked on it. No. No, but I think that this is Douglas because it is old school movie star. I'm in every scene. Like, put the movie on my back.

I am the audience avatar. Like, everything is running through me. So I think even if it's not my favorite Douglas performance or it's the most beloved one, I think that this movie is not what it is without him. And especially without this kind of guy, it's hard to imagine like Harrison Ford just seems too good. of a person. I mean, I'm not just speculating, but he has a certain heroism

that Douglas doesn't have. My answer is Sean Penn. Because I think if you have a different actor in that part who's not that good, I don't think we're doing this podcast. I think the pieces are there. It's close,

but whoever's in that part has to be fucking awesome. And the only reason I thought he won the movie was when I read the Jody Foster stuff. And I was like, oh man, Jody Foster, that would have sucked. Imagine, like, her being like, oh, oh, it turned out.

Jody Foster was that, I don't know, I just wouldn't have cared. And there's so many different actors you could have put in that part that every time they're in, it's not, it's totally electric when he's in every scene. And then the come around at the end and everything in the ending, like, I just don't think a lot. I think Ed Norton could have pulled that off. It's a short list. And it's the key part of the movie. Because as you said, Douglas, he's been better and better movies. you know, and this is probably the 10th best Douglas performance.

And it's a familiar Douglas performance, too. It's almost like a greatest hits Douglas role. Whereas Sean Pan, I really feel like created a character. I like that. I like that argument. It's definitely not Fincher because he disown the movie. But on the other hand, you could just, like, he made this movie successful enough that he got the chance,

he got $70 million to make Fight Club, which is just crazy. Like, he did put himself in a position creatively to make one of the wildest movies of the last 30 years. So, you know, like he kind of wins almost all of his movies in a way, but I don't know. I'm a little disappointed in Chris that he didn't go Debbie Unger for this one. D.K.U. I'm sitting there for you. I have one more question for you guys. Yeah. One extra category. Yeah. Do you think your life would be improved by playing the game.

Do you think you guys... What do you guys think that you, you know, you would take something from this experience that would be ultimately a positive, that you would learn about what matters in life that you would learn that you need to, like maybe loosen up your grip on the wheel a little bit, whatever it is.

What do you think he, what do you think Nicholas learns? I don't know. I just think it would have been so much more traumatic than the end of the movie made, which is one of the reasons I like the ending where he's like, Oh, hey, Debbie, you get in a cab?

Where are you going? I'll hop in. I think you, first of all, you fall through the two glass windows, laying on this target. It turns out this was all this elaborate hoax, 300 people. Oh, my God, you guys did it. You pulled it off. I would be so drained. I would just be sitting in a chair for like three hours after.

I mean, after Celtics heat last night and I had to do a podcast after. And then I was like, fucking drained for three hours. That was just from like a basketball game. a podcast. Imagine going through the game. You're just getting in a car with Deborah Care Unger? I don't, I'm not buying it. I think you're, I think you're, I think you're wiped out after. Sean? I think that was an impressive evasion of the question, by then. Oh, my answer is no. I would, I would fucking hate it. I would be so mad. If I had a little brother, I would fucking be furious at him. Like, I'm not splitting the bill. You pay for a dickhead.

I almost died like nine times. There we go. Shit. You've always been jealous of me. Fucker. I don't think I would like this very much. I don't, I have a really, really hard time with loss of control, as I think both of you guys know.

So I don't, I'm not sure. I know what I could learn about myself to be better. I just don't have the ability to do so. And I don't think threatening my life or the lives of the people around me would effectively help me get there. Now, if my version of the game was different than Nicholas is, if they put me through some other circumstance, I'd be willing to entertain that. I do not want to be buried alive in Mexico.

That is not something that I'm on board for. Well, how about afterwards, you'd be like, you realize if I had been seven feet over to the right, I would have just fallen to my death, you motherfucker. You would see Armin Mueller stall, and you'd be like, didn't I fucking fire you yesterday? You're still fired, fucker. Chris, what about you?

Well, I mean, because the reason I asked the question is if you read the film relatively literally and take some of what Conrad says at face value, he was a druggy fuck-up who had been in and out of rehab and then had played the game and I think that kind of straightened him out a little bit. Is that the implication that we're seeing? I think so.

And so he wants to bestow this upon Nicholas. I think candidly, the game is not as fun if you're married. Oh, you got something to lose. Yeah, I mean, I think that also it's just like, my goal would be to like get back to my wife, you know, and not to cheat on her with Deborah Kara Unger. Like, I would not want to fall afoul of that.

Well, especially not if like then I found out it was all theater. And I was like, oh, I cheated on you chronically for three days because I thought you were dead or I thought that I was going to a Mexican prison or something like that. Like, that would be a tough beat for that party. I mean, I think crucially, Nicholas is a bachelor. So I think it's a little bit different. I am way more Conrad than I am Nicholas, though.

I'm way more likely to take one of you guys to lunch one day and just be like, you've really got to try this. Well, the other question is, who paid for the game for Conrad? I mean, I would imagine he has some kind of trust fund from their father. One of his DJ friends in Abiza, probably. I would be so mad about the jumping off the building thing

to whoever paid for the game for me. like how close that could have just like really by seven feet you're just dead that would be my take it's a flaw it's definitely a flaw of the movie I don't think I would have felt very

I'm not I'm not on board with the game don't don't I don't want a surprise party so just don't don't buy the game for me don't game you guys okay good to know we'll file it away should we have made this a flawed rewatchables I think it's too good

to be a flawed rewatchables yeah yeah I think it's more of a a once in a blue moon rewatchable. Like it's once in a every once in a while you do it. It's not necessarily like, let's rocket back to back in a month. Maybe it's the noble effort rewatchables. I think there's a five-year rewatchable category.

Yeah. All right. Chris Ryan, we can, you're still cranking out the watch, right? Yeah, twice a week. You're hearing the watch. Sean, you're at the big picture. You're still cranking that out, correct?

Yeah, cranking away. Yeah, coming up next week is a one for us. Not that this wasn't, but next week's a one for us for me and Chris. It's not cruising. Yeah. Listen to your podcast on Spotify. Listen to the Ringer podcast network. Go to the ringer.com.

See you next week.