The Rewatchables - ‘The Royal Tenenbaums’ With Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald

Episode Date: January 12, 2021

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald know that Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this podcast presupposes is ... maybe he didn't. We dive into Wes Anderson’s 2001 hit ‘The Royal Tenenbaums,' starring Gene Hackman, Gwyneth Paltrow, Ben Stiller, Luke Wilson, and Owen Wilson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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market. The crickets and the rust beetles scuttled among the nettles of the sage thicket. Vominos amigos, he whispered, and threw the busted leather flint craw over the loose weave of the saddlecock, and they rode on in the frisklyating desk light. This is the rewatchables, the Royal Tannenbombs.

I want to spend some time with you and the children. Are you crazy? The Tennem bombs have always been geniuses, but it will take a father-like royal. I want this family to love me. To make them a family. You probably don't even know my middle name. That's a trick question.

You don't have one. Helen. Jean Hackman, Angelica Houston, Winnis Paltrow, Ben Stiller, Luke Wilson, Owen Wilson, Danny Glover, and Bill Murray, the Royal Tenen Bombs. He also stole bonds out of my safety deposit box when I was 14. Radar, now playing in Select Cities.

Andy Greenwald, what's going on, man? I'm Chris Ryan. We are here to do the rewatchables on Wes Anderson's third feature, the Royal Tenen Bombs, which was released a little less than 20 years ago. as we come into 2021. It was released in December of 2001, but what better time to get lost in a fabulistic upper, upper Manhattan

with one of the most enigmatic, charismatic, tragic comic families in cinema history. And who better to talk about it with than my buddy from The Watch podcast, Andy Greenwald. What's up, man? Am I one of the most enigmatic and tragic people that you know? You are definitely my Eli Cash.

Or am I your Eli Cash? I think that's going to be the topic of a lot of these conversations is how we see each other in these characters. Did you say you were on mescaline? Everything is just kind of foggy right now. I would like to try and see what this podcast would be like if we were both on mescaline.

Like I said, the Royal Ten of Moms is Wes Anderson's third feature. It was released in December of 2001. It made about $50 million at the domestic box office and was a staple of the award circuit, netting a golden globe for, I guess it's star, you could say, Gene Hackman. and it was, I would say, the last great Gene Hackman performance

with all... Wait a second. All due respect to Welcome to Mooseport. I thought I was here for Welcome to Mooseport, rewatchables. Let's start with where we were when this movie came out because you and I were both living in New York City

when Royal Ten and Moms came out. I think we were both probably fans of Wes Anderson varying degrees because of Bottle Rocket and Rushmore and he had sort of emerged out of that late 90s indie cinema class to become this sort of major filmmaker and Royal Tenenbaum's comes out. And at least in our sort of sliver of New York City, I don't think it's overstating it to say that every dude I knew

started wearing wristbands after this movie. Is that that's you you're going to credit it with? I don't know. I feel like this movie had a pretty profound impact on what people listen to, how people dressed, how girls wore a island. liner, like it felt like there was a real BC AD moment with this movie in a lot of ways. Now, whether or not it's kept its hold on the popular culture consciousness is something we can discuss, but take me back to where you were when you first saw it. I think you remember it very well, Chris, because I was just coming off of my own accidental eight-day marriage to a Jamaican dance-hall recording artist, and I felt more seen by this movie than I could possibly have imagined. No, I was,

I mean, look, there are target audiences for things, and then there is the crossbow bolt hitting the Apple while the William Tell Overture music plays, and that's what this movie was for me in 2001. Like you said, I had seen Rushmore, and it was like finding something that I didn't know was lost. I couldn't believe something that wonderful existed and immediately had to go see it again, sought out bottle rocket on VHS, and was actively tracking this. I mean, I mean, you and I were both kind of, I don't want to brag, we were working in the media. Sure. So we were aware that there was a movie coming, and it felt big. You know, it felt like Wes Anderson was given the keys to a fancier car, although he probably would have chosen a moped, knowing him, and had access to more budget, more cast. And this felt like the type of story that was percolating for him. And I mean, I don't know whether you want to begin by talking about the impact of the movie or just. the aesthetic in general. But I think it's worth saying that I'm sure people have discovered this

movie at different points in their life. Hopefully people are continuing to discover it. We'll get to this later in the show when we talk about things like what has aged well or what is aged poorly, that specifically a movie that is a jewel box like this that is so curated. That's a much more patrician way of doing what's aged the best, what's age the worth? What's aged poorly? Well, this is Royal Teninbombs. I know. I mean, there's a reason why you asked me to be here. that it is essentially a kind of a timeless movie. But I will say that to discover this movie or to have it come into our lives at the age that it did for us,

which was 23, 24, it's a very specific time, I think, when you are out of college, maybe just starting to work for the first time, and at least for me, and I think we have a lot of things in common. I feel comfortable saying we, you sort of start to realize that older things of a very particular period in your life.

And I'm not talking about older, like, before you were born. I'm talking about, like, you were alive, but you were not of the world yet. And so your memory of certain things, and for us, this is not, I mean, we were born late 70s, so we're really talking like early 80s stuff. Yeah. It exists in a way that feels almost otherworldly. Like, there are movies that my parents watched or commercials that were on TV in the background or library books that took me years to remember whether they were real or whether I had dreamed

them. And you realize that those sort of object. and that sort of vibe that you could touch but not be a part of has a very powerful imprint on who you are. And at 23-24, you start to look backwards a little bit and be like, oh, I don't need to buy my own vintage paperback version of Salinger. This old, frayed copy of Frannie and Zoe that my mom had in college feels better. It feels right. You know, and you start to reclaim these things and try to define yourself not by rejection of things that came before you, but trying to find your way into them. And all of this

is intro to say, like, Royal Tenembaum's is that, in addition to all the other emotional stuff in it, it is so deeply suffused with this kind of like fictional fairy tale, bourgeoisie version of New York that for people who didn't grow up there, and neither of us did, felt

almost more true than the reality did. And it was like haunting and romantic and emotional and a total gut punch. Tenemoms kind of exists in so much as what you're talking about here. Tenemoms for me exists in this sort of continuum of I guess culture where it's it's like Pulp Fiction or Grand Royal Magazine where it's just like the emptying of the cupboard of influences and obsessions. And so you're talking about this nostalgia and when you watch something like Stranger Things or, you know, even something like Mad Men,

which we obviously didn't live through and was actually made for like a relatively limited budget compared to a movie or something like that, but has a real kind of tactile romance of the time period, even if those things that they romanticize eventually wind up being, you know, detriments to the characters. You watch something like Stranger Things and the sort of loving recreation

of a mall or an arcade or like early, like a Veriflex-style skateboard that these kids wear or like the way that they love Ghostbusters and stuff like that, that's accurate. Like, World Tannenbombs is a fantasy of memory. You know, it's not, it's a collapsing of all these different decades of 60s mod culture and, you know, elbow patch blazers on the upper west side reading the New Yorker, upper, you know, like New York intellectualism. Tennis players as celebrities. Yeah, yeah. Like, right, Richie, Richie Tenenbaum being like on the cover of Sports Illustrated, happening kind of in the 80s, but sort of in the 70s. Like, it's this sort of post-modic. pastiche style of art making that I think you and I grew up with. You know, you and I were very

much like in love with that because that was sort of an extension of some of the indie rock we loved. It was obviously extension of a lot of the movies we loved growing up. But when you go see Pulp Fiction, you're being introduced to an entire cinematic world that like this guy has had in his head that he is able to get up on screen, both in terms of the soundtrack, the way it looks, the way people dress, the way people talk, the way people interact with each other. And it's the same thing for Tenenbaum. I totally agree with everything you said, and I'm really interested by you mentioning Stranger Things this early, because everything, all great works really are the sum of their

creator's influences and how they played on their cerebellums and imaginations and dreams. And Pulp Fiction, obviously, was the product of Quentin Tarantino's pop culture suffused childhood in the 70s. So the references that he used to make Pulp Fiction did not really resonate with me and maybe with you either because we weren't kids like him. So I was learning about a lot of these things for the first time. Like even when I saw Jackie Brown, that was the first Pam Greer movie I had seen. I didn't get the reference, but it made me interested.

Star Wars, you know, I think was really influenced by like Flash Gordon serials and all these other things that influenced George Lucas growing up. Tenenbaum's hits really hard because it is that kind of stranger things celebratory collage, but for indoor kids. And I'm not talking about kids who are indoors playing with their Star Wars action figures. I'm talking about kids who are indoors reading the mixed up files of Mrs. Basilie Frankweiler while their parents played Paul Simon records and their dad sifted through back issues with the New Yorker. You know what I mean? It's super micro-targeted and I'll own it. But there is something that was just alive here that I just responded to so, so, so deeply.

And as we get further into the conversation, we'll talk about the filmmaking and the comedy. and the really kind of raw emotion that is a play here that makes it, I think, more than just a collage and makes it a masterpiece. But to watch this movie and even to rewatch it now, I am reminded of just sort of shadowy memories that I'm not even certain about. And a lot of them have to do with like visiting New York with my parents and like visiting their friends on the Upper West Side once and seeing graffiti on the subway or sort of phantom remembering what the hotel across from Penn Station used to look like or walking in the

Garment District. And even saying those words, Garment District now, like, okay, people will be like, oh, you mean you're where the Nomad Hotel is? I'm like, no, I mean, a district that is like the, like, little Tokyo where there's dog fighting in Royal Tenen Bombs, you know? Did those things really exist? No, question mark? They could have. And you kind of almost remember it. And it is a heightened sense of artistic engagement to see them on screen so alive like this. I remember, like, this movie, when I was watching it this weekend made me remember like my grandparents used to live in West Palm Beach in Florida when they retired. They moved from

New York City to upstate New York and then down to Florida. And my grandfather had this attic where he had literally these little small like jewelry box sized treasure chests that had like these little latches that you would open up and they would have like his cufflinks and his old watches in them and they would smell a little bit like mothballs like the whole thing smelled like a little bit like mouthballs, but also like after shave, kind of. And then he also had like first editions of

like Faulkner novels, you know, and like all this stuff that was like lining the walls that was like this accumulation of an experience on the East Coast throughout the 20th century. And every little piece, every little object told this story. And I would, you know, like some of the stories I got, some of the stories I didn't. But that's kind of what the rewatchability of Tenenbaum's is partly rooted in looking at these little objects and these little things, the board game closet, the art on the walls, like the records that Margo has. And you can see that there's an entire lifetime of a family built up in these objects. Yeah, and I think that it's really important to note that in terms of Wes Anderson's career as a filmmaker, which I think went a little bit down after this

before rebounding more recently, he has a reputation, sometimes to serve, sometimes not, as being more fastidious about the margins than what's in the middle of the frame, about being, you know, essentially building ships in bottles or literally ships on Kinniketa Soundstage in Italy, you know, and just obsessing over that. And this film has so much detail, so much, it's so extra that it's almost overwhelming. But what I think hits so hard about this film and makes it so particularly special is that it celebrates all of the minutia and the accumulation and specificity of a lifetime of stuff, but its project is to just zero in

with a razor-sharp focus on the essential emptiness of a life built on the accumulation of affect and stuff. And because of that, it is probably his most essential film. Because I think that all of his movie, I mean, like all great filmmakers, right? It's kind of only making one movie,

kind of telling one story again and again in different ways. This is the one where art, ambition, budget, cast, money, youth, energy, all peaked at the same time. Yeah, and also, I mean, you and I are both only children. I don't think it's for great podcasters. And I think you and I probably share a fantasy of like siblings being your best

friends, you know, because we don't know what that's like. And I have much more vivid memories. of watching friends of my beat the shit out of their younger brothers or my friends who were the younger brothers getting the shit beaten out of them by their older brothers or brothers and sisters screaming at each other throughout their childhoods, then I do like the kind of fantasy that's taking place

in royal tenem bombs about like this group, you know, this group of people that you're tied to inextricably and that you're also sort of friends with in a weird way. But I think that that is also part of the fantasy. For as much as there's like a fantasy about like cool art and board games and records, there's also the like, what if you had this family made up of these archetypes, these really finely drawn archetypes, the doomed character, the depressive character, the anxious character that somehow made up this whole.

As opposed to be an only child who is all three at once. I think I'll say though that the other aspect of having siblings is that you and I don't understand, but I now have two children, so I see it, and I'm just kind of constantly in awe of it, is that it allows you, and please, read her mail, let us know, sibling male, can tell us. Big brothers out there. But I think that it allows you to be both a member of a tribe and also an observer of a tribe in a way that only children struggle with. Because if you're an only child in a family unit, one that has, you know, one that has stayed together, and we should talk about how divorce figure so heavily in this movie as well, both for the person who made it and then obviously

in what the, in its subject matter, you are like a unit. You are a, until you sort of figured out and go to way to college or like get some perspective, you are kind of a three-person team. Whereas if there's another kid there, the division lines, the healthy division lines between adults and children, between individuals, are more clearly and cleanly delineated from an earlier age. And so that push pull that you're talking about that we see in every character where they can't help. It's almost a gravitational pull

back to Archer Avenue no matter what they claim to be wanting to be doing with their lives is really, I mean, it's really incredibly observed. But I think for people who can relate even better than we can, it's got to be, it's got to pack a punch. Yeah. I think it's worth mentioning

a little bit about Wes Anderson and then the cast before we get to the categories and stuff like that. So like you said, I think that there is a narrative about Wes Anderson that he made this movie and then kind of retreated inside of himself into his little like diorama of the world. There was a feeling in 01 that I think he had a chance to be like as significant of voice as Tarantino.

I don't know necessarily that I would call them exact contemporaries. I think he comes a little bit after Tarantino obviously, you know, in terms of when they make their first movie and certainly in terms of their cultural impact. But that is a narrative, that he makes Tannenbombs and then goes on to make Life Aquatic, which is beloved by many people and I find to be a delightful movie. He makes Darjeeling Limited, which I think is a very problematic movie, but is probably also his most serious film in a lot of ways. And then I think after that, there is a period where he makes really, like, I find almost every one of his movies to have something to enjoy it in them.

But the ones that come after Limited wind up being a little Tweed. You know, there's Moonrise Kingdom, which a lot of people like, and I like too, but I don't revisit very much. Fantastic Mr. Fox. And then you know, he comes back

in 14 and makes Grand Budapest, which is a hit and is also hilarious and a wonderful, wonderful movie. I would push back in the narrative a little bit because I think that what his, you can come at his career in a lot of different ways. And I think that the bigger thing that we should talk about, so I'll just put a pin in it, is basically to say that like a lot of artists, particularly musical artists, I think that he said what he had to,

what he had to say, what he had stored up in his first three albums, let's say. Bottle Rocket, Rushmore, and Royal Tenenbaum's, I think he emptied out his closet of both his own psychology, his own history, his own passions, and then it was a question of like, what does it mean to be an adult. What does it mean to be a filmmaker? And there's a lot more experimentation. And I think that you can see, so you could think of it as this was his personal period, and then he went on to just being a filmmaker with his own passions and rabbit holes to chase things down. But I also think you could take a different perspective and look at Tenenbaum's as the beginning of something, because there's a moment in Tenenbaum's, and obviously we'll talk about it in more detail later, but the Richie Tenenbaum suicide

scene is so shocking and so devastating. And so violence. And it's completely out of the blue with the filmmaker we thought we knew and the movie we thought we were watching and the career we thought we were enjoying up to that point. It really marks a break. And the next movies for me are really about him figuring out how to balance engagement with the adult world where blood happens. Blood is spilled. You know what I mean? And I think that for me, Darjeeling Limited is sort of the nadir of his like, I'm not really sure what I'm doing, but these are some beautiful ideas and images and re-embracing childhood from an adult's perspective in Moonrise Kingdom and in Fantastic Mr. Fox is sort of what turned it around. And I think Grand Budapest Hotel

is kind of a masterpiece because it act, in addition to being twee and delightful and absolutely hilarious, kind of wrestles with fascism and creeping violence and history in a way that the other movies weren't equipped to do. So it's easier to see it now, I think, now that we're a little bit. I think if we had done this podcast before Grand Budapest came out, we would have been like, huh, like this guy was, he had it all at his feet and decided to go inwards rather than outwards. And I think that that's the thing that characterizes Tenembaums is this is essentially someone who's built up a little bit of capital because of Bottar Rock and Rushmore. And Tenenbombs is like this great leap forward, both in terms of the talent involved because it's Hackman, Angelica Houston,

Paltrow is a star by now, Glover is, you know, he's got Danny Glover and this support. supporting role. And then the scope of the movie itself, it's about family. It's about failure. It's about being in the doomed love of family. The filmmaker that I would bring up as a comparison and as a contemporary is the other Anderson, is Paul Thomas Anderson. Obviously, very, very different in so many ways. I think Magnolia and Tennebombs have a lot in common. That's what I was getting to. That's exactly the point I wanted to make. Both, by the way, I think have the Scorsese sign of approval, right? Like Wes Anderson from his, from Bottle Rock at Scorsese, he was like, this is the kid, this kid's got it, which is really interesting considering how totally

different they are as, as, uh, in terms of like their creative muses. But for both filmmakers, their third films, and I think Magnolia came out in 2000 or 2001, or 99. 99. Okay, so either way, Magnolia and Tenebombs were each of their third films. And that was the one where they hit the main vein of their emotion. trauma and childhood memories. And they also hit the main vein of Hollywood budget making.

And they had access to do stuff. And it's really interesting to think about them that way. It's like, I think Ten of Bums is a better movie than Magnolia. But both of them go to places that are both ecstatic from a filmmaking perspective in terms of just

the pure creativity on screen, but also just like, whoa, okay, like we've really, we've hit the good stuff. You know what I mean? This is a gusher and it's just going to keep flowing. And then afterwards they both had to kind of almost retreat from it in a way to regroup to become who they were going to be in the future. Both I think it's worth, I was going to save this for one of the categories, but I want to talk about it now. Both of those movies, Magnolia antenna bombs, have something to it where it's like,

it's basically like criterion MTV. They have the sensibility and the style of music videos, both of those guys grew up watching, I'm sure, with this engagement with and obviously deep love of European cinema. And they combine those two things and bring their musical taste way up to the fore. You cannot engage with Royal Tenin Bums

without talking about the music because in a lot of ways, I feel like the music makes up for some of the kitchiness and cuteness of the characterizations. So, like, when you're watching Richie, he's such a great, great character, but Elliot Smith does almost all of the work in that scene. You know what I mean? Like, he allows Nico to do so much for Richie and Margo when they see each other at the bus. It's a classic movie. And, you know, I'm not going to

pretend to be too cool for school. I had never heard Nico's version of Jackson Browns these days until the needle drops on that scene. And it's one of the most evocative, haunted. And it's one of the most evocative, haunting and just arresting needle drops of all time. This movie's got like three or four of them. It does. This might be one of the great, you know, Goodfellas is up there. Obviously, like, Boogie Nights is up there, but the Tendombs might be one of the great needle drop movies.

And Needle Drop Flex movies, too, because it's just like the orchestral version of Hey Jude is going to play for five minutes. We got two Rolling Stone songs that we can't put on the soundtrack, but fuck you, they're in the movie. Yeah. Ending with Van Morrison, yeah. And all of them.

Down by the schoolyard. so deeply in service to the vibe. I mean, he is a first class of vibe merchant, you know, to a degree. Like, he almost invented the category for an entire generation or for this century. It's pretty amazing. No, no.

This is a complicated question, but I wanted to ask you, who's the hero of this movie for you? And has that changed over the years? I guess also the alternative question there is who's the main character of this movie. Right. Okay. So I think that for all the emphasis we're putting on first time we saw it, you know, being of a certain age experiencing this movie, which honestly I think baked into that

praise is a little bit of a hedge being like, this is why we feel so precious about something that a lot of people think is precious because we were young and we were precious ourselves and we were impressionable. One of the reasons why I'm so glad we're doing this podcast, is because watching it again and having not seen it are really focused, focused on it for a few years, it was really affirming to see that it is a masterpiece and it holds up. And part of the reason it holds up is that one's empathy for it and connection to the character shifts over time. Because it's very possible to see this as I did as a 22 or 23 year old and just be kind of bold over by the audacity and the spectacle and the humor and the vibes. and Gene Hackman's performance and finding it deeply, deeply funny

and knowing that something inside of me is vibrating on a melancholy and sad level, but not being in touch with any of that enough to actually put a finger on it. And then to watch it much later and realize that maybe Richie is the hero of the movie in a way that was not clear to me,

even though I think it's pretty clear. Right. To realize that all of the movie leads up to one line, said by, you know, we could rank them. I think Ben Stiller's character, Chaz, is maybe leads the field for least favorite character, which is, you know, which is, he's great.

But everyone else has a lot more, uh, razzle dazzle. But the entire movie almost exists to service one line from Chaz at the very end that I'm sure we're going to get to, two later on. Um, anyway, I don't, I don't have a specific answer to the way you frame the questions. I think it's Richie. I think Richie is the sin eater for this family.

Like, Richie is the person. who has physically manifested probably the failures of the family in the biggest way. He's the one who seems to love both of his parents still throughout at all. He obviously loves his sister. He's got this sort of adversarial relationship with his... By the way, you put an asterisk on that. We'll come back to it. Yeah. I mean, he has this adversarial relationship with Chaz and somewhat of an adversarial relationship with Eli. But he is the kind of Christ figure of this movie, if there is one. I think that Royal is the person, and Wes is, West Anderson's talked about this. Like, Royal is the person who makes everything happen.

He's the instigator. But Richie is, other than Bogota, is the last person to leave the gravestone at the end. Like, I think Richie is essentially who this movie winds up being about, especially in the second half. We can get into everything that we love and about this movie coming up with the categories. We'll just take a quick break first. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more.

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I'll just go through some of the accolades for this movie. It was nominated for Best Original Screenplay at the 2002 Oscars. Like I said, Gene Hackman, won the Golden Globe for his performance as Royal Tenenbaum. Our guy, Roger Ebert, gave the... this movie three and a half stars. He was a fan. Generally, I think it's gone through a couple of different waves

of appreciation, rejection, re-appreciation, and now we've kind of arrived at a place where if you watch this movie, it's really hard not to like it. It's a pretty lovable film. I mean, it is amazing what can happen to both a film and a filmmaker and

a career if you just are patient with it over time. I think that in many for a while, this movie was thought of a little bit as a disappointment and in two different directions. The one that I have less time for is that, you know, there was sort of a backlash

to the cult of Wes and the Tweeness and... Like with anything, I mean, there was a back... Like, there was a cult of Tarantino and people started imitating him, and nobody did it like the master because what the master was doing was ultimately much more interesting than just the... Yeah, and it's like fetishization

of different cultures and stuff like that, yeah. And so to the point when I remember when I did the first... cover story on Vampire Weekend for Spin in early 2008. And, you know, they were kids. They were, they just graduated from Columbia. And, you know, they were very proudly Upper West Side Corps. And they were like, our main influences aren't musical. They're Wes Anderson movies. And I would say that the editorial team at Spin thought that was pretty funny and pretty worthy of mockery. But I think the other interesting thing to think about was this was Wes Anderson's, quote-unquote,

big shot. And, you know, we want to get back to the specifics of this movie, but I am curious to hear your thoughts on just contextualizing what that would mean at a time like that, because there was a desire, and there always is a desire in the part of Hollywood, where it's just like, okay, someone is an indie darling and clearly is connecting with people. How can we expand this? How can we make this bigger? How can we profit off of this? And with all the stars in this movie and with Disney behind it, and, you know, it got the big Oscar release slot at the end of the year. And it did fine. It made its money back,

but it was not by any means a hit. And of course, Wes Anderson was never interested in making hits. He just kept going. And it was a similar trajectory that Paul Thomas Anderson did. A few years later,

the trajectory for different types of filmmakers would be, you make an indie hit like Colin Trevereaux did, and then you get Jurassic Park. Yeah. Ryan Coogler does Fruitvale, does Creed, does Black Panther.

Chloe Zao does the rider then gets Eternals, you know, and still makes nomad land, but like you get draft drafted into franchise filmmaking incredibly fast now. As if that's what your goal was. And obviously, West Anderson would never have done it.

He wouldn't do it now. He wouldn't do it then, even if it had been offered to him. But it's interesting considering the frames that we carried with us then for success or failure. And now I think there's sort of looking wistfully back at the Andersons being like, I wish we had more filmmakers who stuck to their guns, or even though the opportunities that they may have gotten, you know, to make a movie like this in their third movie, as opposed to you're either with an iPhone in the Duplos brothers in your backyard,

or you're in Middle Earth, people are envious of what they had just 20 years ago. I think that if he was around now, if he had made Bottle Rocket and Rushmore in 2008 and 2010 and 2015 or something like that, and then he was going to make this movie, he would have to make Frannie and Zoe. Like, he would have to make an adaptation of a Salinger novel,

or he would have to have something that kind of gave it like a little bit of a basement of a baseline of IP credibility to go and make a movie like this. There's also very few people like Gene Hackman around anymore where you would be like, I mean, who would be the equivalent right now?

Harrison Ford? Like who would you be like, I'm going to get one of the greatest screen actors of the last 50 years to put in one last great performance? And that is worth mentioning. Like, he went to Gene Hackman and was like, I am essentially,

there is a character I have in mind that is you, that you are going to play. and Gene Hackman was very resistant about coming and doing this movie, doing this movie for anything less than he got paid very handsomely to do the other movies that he did towards the end of his career. Well, also, it's particularly interesting

because Wes Anderson now says he made two mistakes. The first mistake was telling or communicating to Gene Hackman through agents that he was writing something for him before there was a script. And Gene Hackman was pissed. Because he's famously prickly, and he was just like, I hate it when people write things for me because people who do that think they know me and you don't

fucking know me. So he was already on his back foot. And then he was like, I want you to be in this movie, but everyone has to do it for scale. And scale means everyone gets paid the same industry union mandated basic level, which is for movie stars, which is nothing, because they had eight movie stars and they couldn't pay some people something and some people less. And so not only was he going to get paid scale, which was insulting to him, he would have to be there for the whole thing. You would have taken scale for like the Seymour Cassell part. So when you watch this movie, the Gwyneth Paltrow scenes are made up of the three weeks they had Gwyneth Paltrow, or the 10 days that they had Ben Stiller,

or the 10 days that they had this, like, they are literally, like, shooting this movie on the fly as they have these, these pretty big actors at the time. Is the MVP, the line producer, who scheduled this to make it seem like they were a family all at the same time? It's unreal. But Hackman is in almost every scene, and Hackman is, like, standing behind, like, mattresses and coming out from where, like, he's doing all the, like, the gritty work. And I mean, if we're talking Hackman for a second, which is really all I ever want to do, there are no actors like Gene Hackman.

There never were any actors like Gene Hackman other than Gene Hackman. But specifically, when I was making Briar Patch and I was trying to cast the lead part, I was like, there are no Gene Hackman. There are no actor, American actors, who are physically imposing,

but able to switch from menace to comedy, who are nimble enough to be charismatic, and sexy and fun, but also just solid, right? Like, it just is a category that doesn't exist anymore. He is completely Swedish, and it is one of the more beautiful things about the movie that you can appreciate the more times you watch it, that Wes A Henderson did this for him. And obviously, we benefited from it. Wes Anderson benefited from it, too.

And, you know, Gene Hackman is still alive, 90 years young, riding his bicycle and writing, like, you know, naval fiction from his home in Santa Fe. New Mexico, retired now almost 30 years. Sorry, retired almost 20 years. Who knows what he feels about this movie, honestly? But he gave his all to it. Yeah, I don't know how he feels about it, but it's, for me, it's up there with the conversation and night moves and French connection and Crimson Tide and Hoosiers. And, you know, people will throw in reds. People could throw in tons of other movies. Scarecrow. Scarecrow. But it's an iconic performance. The bird cage. And it's a really, He's always good.

It's a very fitting end of career performance. Even though he did some other movies after this, I think it was a very fitting like this paternal figure, this head of a family, reckoning with his own mortality,

albeit first as a con. And yeah, it's just such a great send-off to a really, like you said, like a pretty unique career. Let's go through the categories. We can start. I have a lot of rewatchable scenes.

The pre-credit character introductions that you mentioned is scored by Hiji. I always really love Royal at Margo's first play when she's 11 and he's just like, what do you want me to say? It's a bunch of kids running around. What'd you think, Dad?

It didn't seem believable to me. Why you wear in pajamas, do you live here? He has permission to sleep over. Well, did you at least think the characters were well-developed? What characters? There's a bunch of little kids. They're dressed up in the animal costumes. Good night, everyone.

Well, sweetie, don't be mad at me. That's just one man's opinion. I mean, I'm not going to say that I can relate to the tenant bombs, but I will say that I was raised in a household with a parent who didn't see the benefit in, you know, sort of... Candy-coating stuff. Sugaring the pill when it came to criticism. So I feel that scene very keenly. Margot meets Richie at the pier.

We mention these days. I love all of the Richie on the ocean liner thing anyway, but that, that when that needle drop hits and the, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow slows down, walking and it's just, you know,

her hair is blowing in the wind, but by what I assume it looks like, um, Port Authority, wherever it is. And it's, it's just an iconic moment. Uh,

I always loved it when Royal goes to, uh, surreptitiously meet Ari and Uzi at the Y. You know who I am? I'm Royal. Have you heard? of me? I'm very sorry for your loss. Your mother was a terribly attractive woman. Thank you. Which one are you?

Ari. Uzi, I'm your granddad. Hello. I'm sorry we haven't gotten to know each other. I don't get invited around very much. What do you think of that, by the way? You don't have to say anything. It's kind of a fuck you to the old man, I guess. So good. Yeah. And it was just like, you know, he's got the payphone in his hand for some reason. That leads to Richie's tennis meltdown

where they actually show some of the broadcast and his, that's 72 unforced errors for Richie Tenenbaum. He's playing the worst tennis of his life. That's Jason Schwartzman and Wes Anderson. No, it's actually Andrew Wilson and Wes Anderson. It's not Schwartzman. It sounds just like Schwartzman. Richie and Eli, when they first meet and Eli's on Mesklin.

I have a catch-all of anything with Eli. Obviously, we're going to talk more about him soon, but any scene with Eli Cash is re-watchable. Eli is the character who I think I've only grown to appreciate more or more over the years. And the fact that we see him as a kid and then see him late in life trying to be this like Thomas McGuane,

Cormack McCarthy, writing Old Custer and Wildcat. Wildcat. Wildcat. Wild cat. Funny story, since we might not be mentioning young Eli again. young Eli is played by young James Fitzgerald, the son of my first literary agent, Jim Fitzgerald,

who's sadly no longer with us, but quite a character, quite a man. Do you know how he wound up made the movie? He went to school in Manhattan, and they had a casting call. They were just looking for people, and he's not an actor. He didn't pursue a career in the arts, but went along to the casting call and got cast. And he is a dead ringer. Like he is literally a small clone, not of Owen Wilson, but of the late great James Fitzgerald. A couple more rewatchable scenes.

Royal and his grandkids down by the schoolyard, the whole... Yeah. I refer to that as the scrapping, yelling, and mixing it up montage, which is classic. Yes. Henry busts Royal, you know, and then he figures out that he's taking tic tacks and eating cheeseburgers and does not have stomach cancer. And then Richie and Royal have that exchange outside the house where he says, Dad, you were never dying. And he's like, but I'm going to live.

Can I throw in one more? The scene that the further I get from it, the more I just want to rewatch it. It's the Royal Ethylene scene. Baby, I'm dying. Wait a second now. Okay. Listen, I'm not dying, but I need some time a month or so. Okay, I want us to

To Damn Ethol Are you crazy? Bethel, baby I am dying Angelica Houston Is so incredible

in that scene She is so amazing Going from zero to 60 to zero again And it's so It's so uncomfortably funny Yeah Because you feel the weight Of what he's doing

And Hackman realizes In the performance the weight of what he's doing and how dangerous it is. She's taking this seriously, yeah. And he kind of can't believe it. And in many ways, in miniature, it's a lesson plan for how to watch this film emotionally that people are playing with actual fire,

but they're still having fun playing. Also, on multiple rewatches, I finally kind of appreciated and noticed. I mean, this is what a novice filmmaker am. I'm not coming at it from that perspective. But that whole scene is shot in the wide. There are no close-ups. And usually actors, they love the close-up because then you can see them reacting to things.

And Hackman and Houston are such masters, they don't even need it. If you try to remember that scene, you probably will remember in your mind seeing more reaction play on their faces than you actually see in the movie. Yeah, there's a couple of scenes like that where I think watching it again recently, I was surprised by how they were staged. You know, there's that shot, there's that whole sequence of Eli and Margot. on the sky, like the bridge over the East River Highway. And it's just like those pan, like, it's basically a series of like pans back and forth and dolly shots in on them. And it's all cutting in camera stuff that's just so wonderful. I know Matt Zolarsight's did a long interview with, with Wes Anderson about some of the stylistic choices you made. And if people can read that

on Vulture, it's a really cool chat about it. And it's taken from this giant coffee table book, the West Anderson collection, which has a lot of, a lot of details. Um, so Henry Bust Royal, I love, the Margo, the Margo background file montage with the Ramones. Just, just amazing shit. But also, the detective. Yeah. Like, every detail. Every detail is right in this movie, including the detective, and all leading up to the punchline of the Bill Murray delivers with the deadpan, only Bill Murray can deliver, which is, she's a smoker. You've made a cuckold of me. Needle and hay, attempted suicide, where she's attempted suicide.

I think hits like a sledgehammer. Not rewatchable for me. Yeah, I don't know. The most rewatchable scene is a bit of a misnomer sometimes. I mean, yes, I would just watch the montage of Royal and the grandkids playing. I think that the Richie's suicide is probably the most affecting thing that Wes Anderson's ever shot. And it's, you know, this is the kind of thing when you see it the first time, you know, Elliot Smith was someone whom we loved and admired,

and there was no secret about the darkness in his music, and particularly the song. I mean, I remember when my college roommates played me the song, Needle and Hay in college, and I was like, I can't mess with this. This is going, this goes to a place. I'm just, like, I'm just trying to, like, study, you know, Victorian literature.

I'm not trying to learn about needles. So the Ritchie suicide scene, and the last one I have is Margot and Ritchie in the tent, which is incredible. tender moment. What did you have for most rewatchable scene? We almost entirely overlapped. The opening montage, you know, when we, on the watch, when we talk about TV shows and we talk about like pilot fatigue being introduced to worlds and how one of the downsides of having multiple hours to play with is just people can really clear their throats now, you know? And this movie starts with one of the more

epic throat clearings, I can remember. It's a... Alec Baldwin narrated, as we said, said to Hey Jude, magical mystery tour through the lives of people we had never heard of 30 seconds before. In a place we don't recognize, yeah. Leading to a very, very

twee and stylized introduction of all of the characters, you know, with title cards, you know, Owen Wilson as Eli Cash while they're doing some business. The movie doesn't start, right, until like nine or ten minutes in. and it's earned. Every moment of it is delightful.

And then, yeah, I had nothing else to add. Eli Cash, baby I'm dying, the Nico needle drop. In the same way, I think, right now, like, ask me on any other day, and I'll choose a different scene. But I think the Margot background file montage is, for me, like, the most effortlessly stylish and expository and wonderful sequence, just because it comes to, like, you know, three quarters in the movie, you feel like you've already heard her story, but just like the level of detail of, like,

the cigarettes, you know, the going to Jamaica, all of her make-out sessions, Eli, before he starts to affect the western, the J. Peterbin look. It's just, I love that sequence. And that Ramon song is fucking amazing. Do you ever, I mean, I don't know if there's a word for it. Maybe there's, if we combed through the

rewatchables archive, I bet this has come up in many other contexts. But there's a very particular feeling and a very specific laugh that can emerge from someone, from one, from us, from me, when you realize how firmly in control a filmmaker is of his or her film and what they're capable of doing. And they hit the gas. And it's like a gleeful laugh. And that's the moment where like you said, you're three quarters into it. And he's just like, oh, there's another gear here. And we're going to hit it. Yeah. And that also reminds me a lot of, um, Salinger stories, you know, where it'll start out and someone's in a bathtub reading a letter.

And then that letter has a story inside of the letter, you know, that is actually the story of the short story until you get that, that kind of nesting, nesting doll device I always love. So I'm going to go with Margo. What's age the best? We've talked about the soundtrack a lot. Is there any, are there any other songs you want to shout out? I thought I would mention the, uh, the fact that Eli is always listening to The Clash. I love. And also the use of Bob Dylan's music from Pat Garrett and Billy and the Kid a couple of times is beautiful. I want to shout out what is to me, probably the quintessential New York record, certainly for six months of the year, which is Vince Goraldi's Peanut Christmas music. Before it became the sad George Michael on Arrested Development meme, it's just absolutely beautiful and haunting in this. And the ice cream scoop shop, yeah. And listeners of the watch know that I spent some of last year

discovering the jazz pianist Bill Evans and just constantly chasing Upper West Side Corps. Basically what this movie is, which is just sort of this very, very, very intense ice cream shop nostalgia for a city that I never quite lived in that is only experienced through, like, you know, random scenes and Hannah and her sisters and early Paul Simon Solo records.

And hearing that music here is like, that is one of the building blocks of that aesthetic. Yeah. What else is age the best? So we got the soundtrack, Hackman, we've talked about. Let's talk a little bit about the Wilson brothers. Oh, I was saving them, but we could talk, because I don't know how well they've aged. I have them in a, as really taking another category entirely.

So I would just, I usually am like, in the freeze frame of the moment of this movie, did they age the best? And did the performances age the best? and I think that their performances in this movie separate from one another are remarkable. Like, they're so great. I don't think Luke Wilson's career is the best. I'm on record saying that, like,

I feel like Luke Wilson was, like, had, like, Harrison Ford potential. I know that I've been roundly mocked for that take, but this is a guy who makes, like, four or five really great films and then multiple movies where he is, like, in support of a dog who is the star of the movie. Like, literally, like,

movies about dogs and like, and then Luke Wilson's like, what? Owen Wilson was the star of Marley and me. No, but like that's what I'm saying. Like the Wilson brothers, like, like Luke Wilson's in like two or three dog movies outside of like, I know Owen Wilson's in Miami. And in some real dogs. Yeah. I mean, okay, if we're going to jump into it here, which is fine, because I have them at Apex Mountain. Yeah. There is, I mean, this is, this is, this is, this is Mount Wilson as far as I'm concerned. But what's aged the best? I mean, yeah, there's a special kind of, of alchemy that you can see... Here, let me put it this way.

Recently, HBO put up this Begee's documentary that is very entertaining. And unsurprisingly, the most entertaining talking head in the film is Noel Gallagher, formerly of Oasis. And one of his most quotable things that he says is the music that can be made with siblings singing together

is an instrument that can't be bought in a store. It is one of the most priceless things imaginable. And also one of the most fragile, obviously, in his own case. And the Wilson's are actual blood brothers, but Wes Anderson grew up with them in Texas, and they are as close as brothers. No one Wilson co-wrote this movie. And so there's a certain harmony at work with filmmakers, artists in this case, who just know everything about each other's strengths and play entirely to them. Right. Like, when you look at Owen as Eli and Luke as Richie, you're seeing what people who have known

them their whole lives see in them. Yeah. And the spotlight shone on them. And so it's no surprise that they've never been this good again because they've never been as completely vulnerable and seen before, right? I mean, it's also just cool. Like, the same thing as with Bottle Rocket where they also don't play brothers. They're very, very different.

and they have very different energies. And seeing those two energies connect like they do in this movie is, it's a thrill. I mean, Luke is, you could have, you could have done a lot worse than buying a lot of Luke Wilson stock coming off of this movie. I randomly came across a clip of Luke Wilson, the deleted scene from Jackass 2, where Luke Wilson is just hanging out with the Jackass guys in like a Hollywood Hill, maybe his own Hollywood Hills home, I don't know.

and he's just wearing like a navy blue golf shirt with the collar popped and is electrocuting himself with a 1940s telephone. And I'm just like, you are Ritchie Tenabobb. Like, this is just like, this is really real, like watching you. He seems so sad, but also wanting to like get along with Johnny Knoxville and Bambergera and Steevo. It's just, if you can watch it on YouTube, you got to see it. It's really got a lot of pathos.

It's really interesting that his whole, I mean, I guess it makes sense that he's struggled finding worthy roles because what he's so good at in such a unique way is just mournful stillness. Yeah. Right? I mean, he's so slow and within himself and his brother is so the opposite and is so kind of hopped up and manic and external. And it's fascinating. As an extension of Mount Wilson, I think that's a great way of putting that. we can even, we won't even have to do Apex Mountain. But I do want to say that what's aged the best is the Sunday New York Times magazine cover

of Eli Cash. Incredible. And then my final, What's Age the Best is Henry and Ethel's relationship, which might be the most human and sort of recognizable relationship in the movie in a lot of ways and is so sweet and tender and naturally evolving, even if it starts out as like Henry's sort of being like, you know, for taxes. purposes, you should do this. But the kindness and the way it like kind of teases out these performances from Angelica Houston and Danny Glover. I agree with that. I mean, I ended up just kind of,

because I think this movie is just so close to perfect and so totally contained within itself. Like I got a little more abstract with the category. I mean, I feel like Touchstone Pictures, producer Barry Mendel, like all their decisions to invest in Wes and let this be what it was going to be, has aged really well. I'm sure a lot of the people involved had some doubts when it didn't become what they had hoped it would become, and it didn't clean up at the award season, and people weren't really quite sure what to make of it. But it's, frankly, it's not just beautiful. It's inspiring when you see someone trusted and they just do it. I mean, it is, there's such a mastery at work here down to every detail. And in that Mad Dollar Sites book,

you can learn about some of the decision making that just seems baked in now, but like the decision to recreate the book covers and then mosaic them across the screen, right? And he was like, oh, he was inspired by I think it was a Godard movie that did something similar, of course. But he also realized he had to mosaic them across the screen because you had to fill the whole screen.

And so with every creative enterprise, a lot of these decisions were just like, well, we were just doing the best we could. But they turned into something kind of iconic. I would also say the underrated, but has aged really well in this movie, is the physical comedy. There is no pure laugh.

That's mostly stiller. It's partly stiller. But I think the single funniest laugh in the entire movie is when Angelica Houston and Danny Glover are walking at the archaeological site. Oh, and all of a sudden, Danny Glover is not walking anymore. He does an all-time great fall and then just emerges. And it's so dumb and purely funny.

And it's a sign of like a master because the humor is coming from like very cerebral level and also man fell in whole. So my What's Age the Best. I'm going to go with the soundtrack. Yeah, I'll go with my abstract decision to invest in West. You're going to go to Barry Mendel. Barry Mendel. Got to support the guy. But the soundtrack has really aged wonderfully. All right. So what's age the worst? Obviously, you were using a little bit more of a broad definition of this category. I feel like we might as well hit the asterisk here.

Margo and Richie's relationship, which I think is very, very, very sweet and very, um, star crossed and very depressing. And it's pretty much brushed aside when people are like, that's gross. And he's like, is it? And they're like, I guess not this crazy world? Who cares? Uh, how do you feel about it now versus then? And what's your take on Margot and Ritchie's romance? My memory of it was faulty. I, in my mind, they slept together in the tent. And then she was like, this is never happening again. And in fact, it avoids sex altogether. Della affected that. I did.

I kind of did. And so that's not what happens. I actually kind of ended up feeling less weird about it than I remembered being weird about it. Because they make such a point of saying she's not really part of the family. Nothing makes sense in this family. They also, he also, I think, makes what at the time may have seemed like a cowardly choice, but I think is actually the only choice, which is just to kind of yada yada it. At the funeral, she's resting.

her chin on his shoulder, but we don't have any other... There's no other sense that they are like together. Yeah, it's not like they leave the funeral hand in hand or something. I mean, as we were talking at the beginning about some of the darkness that crept into his movies, like, he... So much of his filmmaking is from a childlike perspective. And sex, romance, all of it was kind of outside of his grasp, I think, in a lot of ways that was sort of charming, if a little weird in Rushmore.

I mean, you remember the part in Rushmore? where where they're, you know, he's talking about hand jobs, you know, it's just like,

it's like, wait, what are these children talking about? Later, I think in Moonrise's kingdom, he sort of more directly confronts

like adolescent sex as opposed to like we're going to have a sleepover in the library. I think that this movie has like a real dark underbelly though. Yeah, it does.

And so I kind of appreciate that the, that it's just left to be the underbelly because if you make the movie, if you make, you make the movie where Richie and Margot Tenenbaum,

where it's not the underbelly, just the straight up belly, then you know, then you have like Bertolucci's the Dreamers or something. And I don't think anybody really wants that. I think it's not what this is. I mean, like, I think that there's that whole undercurrent like, and well, with another one of my what's aged the worst is the Charlie Rose figure in the movie kind of groping. Age great. Accurate.

At the time, we were like, Charlie Rose. And, you know, Eli doing Coke with the, I think the Egyptian guys in the, in the room when he gets the first intervention. Like, there is like an undercurrent. Sugar, it's Eli. One of the best lines of the movie. King Toot. King Tut.

Yeah, there is a darkness, which leads us to the, we didn't flag it with an asterisk, but I think it should be mentioned. And it is interesting how it plays in context, which is Royals not so casual racism. Yeah, I was going to bring up Pink Coltrane. You want to talk some jive? I'll talk some jive.

hasn't aged great. But I guess it's worth contextualizing. There's two things to say. One is, Wes Anderson is a big fan of Gene Hackman. He's a big fan of 70s movies he grew up in. Gene Hackman, pretty racist in some 70s movies. That's what I'm getting at.

Like, it is worth saying that it is very hard to look at this movie with a 2021 eye. It's probably, it was probably challenging in some ways to look at it with the 2002. I think it was made with a 1976 eye because that's where Royal slash West Anderson's love of Gene Hackman was stuck. So he talks like Popeye Doyle, right? Like from the French connection. Right. Not quite like the Mississippi Burning character, but at least like the Popeye Doyle character. So it definitely hits different. And I can't tell if it hits different now because we are desensitized because it never should have flown and thus isn't actually funny. Or is it that we are so unused to having characters in adult films that we are supposed to like be complicated?

you know. I know I'm sounding trait. I mean, calling a black man Coltrane is not cute and complicated. But I flagged this whole part as age the worst because it definitely it bumped me out of my rewatch. Sure. Calling you a big old grizzly bear, though. That seemed okay. The only other thing I have for what's age the worst is the ending, which is sort of this slapstick collision of all the plot lines and all the characters at this wedding.

I think it, for me, like, the movie emotionally kind of comes to a climax at the, in the tent with Margot and Richie. And then there's this sort of multiple codas and epilogues afterwards. And I think that, like, Eli's showing up and running over Buckley and that's sad and, like, all the stuff that happens is, it just feels more slapstick and screwball to me than it does emotionally satisfying necessarily. I was wondering how you felt about the ending. You know, I think that the ending is where you see his youth. Like, Wes Anderson was what he was like 31 when he made this movie, which is just, you know, mind-boggling. I think the staging of an action scene, for lack of a better term, is when his vestidiousness got the better of him.

There are moments when you see him start to experiment, like the fire alarm stuff with Ben Stiller, like he switches to handheld camera to track him down the stairs. And you're like, oh, we're kind of in a different vibe now. The car crash and then the sort of awkward staging of the car here, but the dog was there. I agree with you that that begins to feel a little complicated. But this seems as good at times as any to say that for me, I mean, the entire movie exists for the moment when Ben Stiller says, I've had a tough year dad. Yeah. I've had a rough year, dad. I know you have a chassis.

That's the release. Which is one of the most devastating lines in line readings. in my adult life of cinema. It totally destroys me still. So you're pro-stiller in this movie, even though he kind of exists outside of some of the rest of the movie in a lot of ways. Well, we could get into talking about that.

I mean, I think that he has, I think he has the toughest part in a lot of ways. I also think that that might just be my perception because I think he had the biggest struggle bending himself into Westworld. his style, his performance, like it doesn't really fit in here. I think later his,

I think he learned a lot from this performance or he built on it a lot in later dramatic performances that he gave or like in the Meyerowitz Chronicles or something. You can see traces of Chaz. It's also kind of the thankless part because he's just kind of a jerk for a lot of it and he's not having fun.

But he also is the one who is experiencing grief in a palpable way that is really tough to kind of, you know, put a track suit on and laugh about. I was going to get to this impossibly unanswerable questions, but I have a feeling that Chaz is more or less underwriting the family economically, like financially is basically, he's like supplying. He's, he's what's keeping them liquid. He says, I used to be a homeowner myself, Henry, before my son was, but, but I, you know, that moment of, I'll put it this way, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, that we are describing, right,

of people who may have grown up reading old National Geographic magazines while their parents listen to classical music downstairs or whatever. Actual emotional conversation is at a premium. That is not something that happens. And so I do think that if you're looking for the emotional

very much beating heart of this movie, all of it is preamble to that one line. And if you just consider the movie as a delivery system for that one line. Yeah. And the father saying, I hear you. I hear you.

I know you did in being recognized for your pain. Like, it is one of the most beautiful and understated moments of paternal connection. I mean,

I know, look, I know you want to have a catch dad gets all the headlines. But I've had to rub your dad. Yeah. That's the one for me. All right.

Well, then what would you say age of the worst? I think it's Coltrane. Okay. Casting motives, there aren't that many, the most significant one is the rumor that Gene Wilder was considered for Royal Tenenbaum.

Do you know who he was the third choice? Do you know who the second choice was? No. The second choice was apparently so close because, as we said, Hackman said, don't write things for me, I hate it. And they're like, to do it, you have to be on set for three months

and you have to do it for scale. And he was like, fuck that. his agent was begging him to do it, he was refusing. And it was so clear that he was going to say no that Wes and company turned to Michael Cain. Oh. And when Gene Hackman heard that... And he was like, I won't bury another Batman.

He took the part. And I have to say, would be a totally different movie. We would lose one of the great screen performances of the century, but it would be pretty good. It's pretty hard to imagine Michael Cain as Ben Stiller's dead. It's hard to, isn't it hard to imagine Gene Hackman as Ben Stiller's dad? Yeah, yeah.

So Wilder and Kane as Royal, I couldn't really find any other casting what-ifs for this. No, they're so tight-lipped and he's so controlling about these things. You know, you don't learn anything about his movies until basically the trailers come out for the most part, right? that it's as if they were bespoke suits made for these people. Especially these days, yeah. But that's not the case, because one other thing that I learned from the Matt Sites book is that among the wooing techniques that Wes tried for Gene Hackman

was he sent, you know, all the little sketches and artwork is Wes Anderson's brother, Eric Chase Anderson, who draws those and does a lot of the art. He had like family portraits that Eric had been doodling with sort of set the tone, he sent them to Michael Kane to attract him to the part. He alludes in the book, in the interview, that the drawings contained actors who were not cast. He also says he doesn't have them because they stupidly sent Gene Hackman the originals. And when he asked them about him, he acted like he didn't know what they were. Yeah. He'd probably watered him up and thrown

him out. So we don't have any other what ifs. I would love to know. Good hang or bad hang? Gene Hackman. Hackman in the 70s or Hackman in Santa Fe now? Well, I just feel like Gene Heckman probably is like just like a huge, like just is like really into the New York Giants and just does like a lot of like. Chris, I'm going to stop you there. You know what he's, you know what his favorite team is? Who? The Jacksonville Jaguars. No way. Gene Hackman. How do you know this? Die hard supporter. Don't we have a category of like random Googling? Like this is what I do for. How did you find out that Gene Hackman likes the Jacks? I am a value add to this podcast. I want to be recognized as such. I always wanted to be a rewatchable. apparently he befriended Jack Del Rio when he was at USC and then was supporting him when he was coach of the Jaguars

and would go to games. So did he abandon the Jags when they abandoned Jack Del Rio? Jack Del Rio now has had like sort of a checkered career since then. Yes. Well, so of the Jags. I don't know. I have, he showed up at a,

What I'm trying to ascertain is it, is it Jags for Life for Gene, or is it Del Rio for life? It appears to be, uh, it appears to be a Del Rio for life. Because I just Googled, I just Googled. I'm sorry, we're doing live research on the air. Here's a headline from 2016. Gene Hackman showed up. This now with NFL show if you want. Gene Hackman showed up at Florida practice, had dinner with the Del Rios. Hackman, comma, 86.

one of the most celebrated actors in cinematic history became a Jacksonville Jaguars fan when Del Rio became coach in 2003. So he abandoned them. He was not... That was the end of his Jags fandom. Horlebeck, do you know where Jack Del Rio is now? What's he doing?

Apparently, he was at the University of Florida. That's a great question. Where the hell is Jack Del Rio? He's the Washington football team's defensive coordinator. What's he working for Greas? For God's sake. Oh, okay. So he works for Ron Rivera.

Yep. He's going to the playoffs. This Del Rio slander, weirdly, Del Rio's favorite West Anderson movie is Darjeeling Limited. Yes. He and I have that in God.

He likes Isle of Dogs. Hannity presents. In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guy. Champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger,

Extra Strength, Hannity! eye drops and work all day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Padity. Paraday. Bring it on. Dion Waders Award, I have, as both I have Bill Murray and Stephen Lee Shepard, who plays Dudley. I think Owen Wilson's in a little too much of this movie to be considered in the Dion Waders category. do you have a Dionne Waiters winner?

Good pick. I got to say, I really enjoy New York stage veteran Larry Pine as Charlie Rose figure. Oh yeah. But for me, it's Kumar. It's Kumar Palana, who plays Bogota. West Anderson regular. Yeah, I had him enjoy kids, but yeah, yeah. This is probably my favorite

performance of his in a Wes Anderson movie. You could think it was when he Shives Royal a second time. You could think it's when he says, he has the cancer, but really it comes down to the drug intervention scene when Richie thinks he's done a good job and Kumar just walks to the window and says, there he goes. He's crazy. All right, so we'll give it to Kumar.

The Linda, so Joey Pants, I'm going to give to Seymour Cassell as Dusty. There's a couple of other people. The guy who works, the guy who's Dusty's boss at the hotel is also a guy who's in a lot of stuff. Yeah, and do you know who was the, the Bell House? when Royal is moving out and is complaining about his missing encyclopedias, is Eben Moss Backrack, who was on girls.

It's kind of another indie stall word, one of his earliest parts. How about that? So Joey Pantsall goes Steamworks, The Linda Partridge, they knew Al Pacino, Vincent Hanna, overacting award. I'm going to go with Stiller.

If only because he... I agree, but let me just frame it and say, the way that Wes Anderson makes movies denies an actor the ability to reach this. Well, no, because I think you could make the argument that Paltrow goes here, too, in so much as... Oh, what? No, not in a bad way. Look, Al Pacino is the patron saint of this award.

Al Pacino as Vincent Hanna is one of my favorite characters of all time. I love Margo Tannenbaum. I'm just saying she's doing a lot. Like, she's really... She's doing a lot of little. Like, she's choosing... Yes. Every minute.

...to do very little. I think the way that every, I mean, there's a version of West Anderson criticism where you were like, because every frame has to be just so and fastidiously designed and immaculate and centered, and, you know,

he doesn't do a lot of close-ups. He doesn't give actors clearly a lot of takes for them, you know? I think a lot of the takes are just to get the movement right and the rhythm right in camera, that it kind of denies the ability to do a lot of overacting.

All of that is a caveat to say, Stiller, I'll open this up for you because I agree. I think he gets, I think it works. Me too. But if you're watching this movie, he is... Stiller and Hackman in the board game closet is amazing, but he's going for it. You stay away from my children. Do you understand?

My God, I haven't been in here for years. Hey, are you listening to me? Yes, I am. I think you're having a nervous breakdown. I don't think you recovered from Rachel's death. He's pitched at a different frequency. than everyone else in this movie. Yes. The

Half-ass internet research, we've referenced a couple of these things, but I'll just... Wait, can we just... You skipped Apex Mountain because of the Wilson brothers, right? Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. So the Apex Mountain, which we were renaming Mount Wilson, and I would just say, Owen Wilson, in 2001 released Zoolander,

Royal Tenem bombs, and behind enemy lines. Is that possibly the greatest year in cinematic history? Basically collapsing Tom Hanks's 90s into one year. Incredible. What do you think about it? Great point. I would just say, I'm going to make a controversial statement, and I think it dovetails on who you were just floating potentially,

scandalously for Vincent Hanna Award there. Are you saying that Gwyneth gets Apex Mountain here? This might be Gwyneth's Apex Mountain, as far as I'm concerned. It's definitely, like, I don't want to say it's my favorite. Because I feel like, you know, the kind of guy who's like Margot Tenenbaum is my shit is definitely a kind of guy. And I don't think I am that kind of guy. No.

I love jumpy women, but like, I don't think Margo is exactly my tempo. Look, there is a, it's tough to talk about this now because Margot Tanabom has turned into an Instagram Halloween costume. Yeah. And in some ways, in some ways so has Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah. And it's tough, especially for these kids, Craig, I feel for you. to remember there was a time when Gwyneth Paltrow wasn't known for conscious uncoupling or overpriced yoga eggs.

She was known for being like the absolute shit. Like she was considered like the best young actor. Yeah, and she was the person who would like two cigarettes at once. And her being in this movie wasn't like, she wasn't necessarily getting credit from West Anderson. You know what I mean? It was a two-way street at first. this moment in time. So it's sort of tough to remember that too. It's also, listen, you watch a lot more movies than I do and you rewatch a lot more movies than I do. I struggle remembering the

Gwyneth Paltrow performances from that golden era that I remember fondly, that I think of, that I reference. This is the one to me where she not only created what became an iconic characters. You have to be iconic to become an Instagram meme or a whole lifestyle like she did. But to do it with such firm control that every moment she's on the screen, she is bringing the backstory before we see it. She is, she's living the emotional truth of what is essentially, you know, a Salinger pastiche, right? Right. Right. It is my favorite of her performances for that reason, I think. I think there's some similarities, not sadly, because Gweth Paltrow has gone on to have among the best lives.

She's a very well-competited person who's just a control of her own destiny. I think this is an argument to be made that this is her last great movie. I mean, she's coming out of a really great run of talented Mr. Ripley and Shakespeare in love. Oscar winner for Shakespeare. From Emma to 2001, Emma 96 to Tenen bombs in 2001, she's one of the biggest actresses in the world. And after her tenon bombs and she does shallow howl, which is kind of a, I guess, a disaster, right? Yeah. And if you look at the rest of her credits, I mean, like, there are some

cool things in there. I think she's great and two lovers, you know, the country strong recently talked about. But like, a lot of the movies that she does are movies where I feel like she's kind of not phoning it in, but just kind of like, I'll be in Avengers. I'll be in, I'll be in the Glee, you know, like concert movie or something, you know? It's worthy of a whole other conversation. what happens when you have that much success, you know, she kind of stopped acting in a certain way. She stopped disappearing into parts. And every time she shows up now, it's Gwyneth Paltrow, whether she is promoting something

for Goop or she's hanging out with Robert Downey Jr. in Avengers or whatever Spider-Man movies that she doesn't even know she's in. It's just Gwyneth Paltrow at this point. She is a celebrity and not really an actor. And part of that might be her choice. Part of that might be her fault. I mean, that's a whole separate thing. But this was, it's incandescent, this performance, and I love it.

Yeah. Let's get into, so for Apex Mountain, I think we agreed, though, that we're going to go with Mount Wilson. We're renaming Apex Mountain, Mount Wilson for this movie. Half-Fest Internet Research, 111 Archer is a real place. It's up in Harlem. It's off 144th Street. Royal Tenenbaum, you know, his hotel is the Waldorf Astoria, although it's not named that in the movie.

the movie is essentially based on a book that was never written. The Royal Tenen Boms is like we see the pages flipping describing some of the action. This gives me an opportunity, I think, just to mention a couple of the, and we've mentioned a few of these things, but some of the influences on this movie include films by Louis Malle, Francois-Fault, Jean-New Cedar, the French New Wave. Orson Wells. Huge, huge, huge influence on this movie is the Magnificent Ambursons,

which is Orson Wells. infamous second feature of his movie after Citizen Kane and the movie that was taken away from him. But if you watch Magnificent Embersons as I did this weekend, it's, it's wild how much Tenen Bombs or how much Ambersons is in Tenant bombs. Like we've mentioned before, the announcers covering Richie's Meltdown are voiced by Wes Anderson and Andrew Wilson. Allegedly, I don't know if this is true, but I think, according to the internet, Danny Glover, Luke Wilson, and Owen Wilson all turned down parts in Oceans 11 to appear in this movie. Wow. Yeah. It was not an easy shoot.

It was built around the busy schedules of the cast members. And Gene Hackman was often very combative on set. And there is even a story in a, I don't know if it's apocryful or not, but that Bill Murray had to confront Gene Hackman about his behavior on set because he was being... Which, by the way, that's incredible. If Bill Murray doing that, yeah. Bill Murray is not known for his discipline in anything. And, you know, we didn't even talk about him in this movie.

Him in this movie is kind of incredible, just because it's a, It's a wonderful performance. It's an understanding performance. Yeah. And it's very small. And, you know, he clearly, you know,

infamously he doesn't have an agent. He just works with people he knows and he's impossible to reach and he's like a, you know, amusing, potentially binge drinking phantom. He clearly loves Wes Anderson and understands him and will do anything for him.

And he just, like, loves making Wes Anderson and Jim Jarvis movies. It just really, you know, it's kind of amazing, though, when you see a, a relatively small part when it's played by Bill Murray, it elevates. A relatively small part is played by Seymour Cassell. You know, I mean, good God, that's kind of amazing. You mentioned that the house

is real. One factoid I picked up was that when they saw it, they were looking for locations. He wanted it to be as real as possible. They found the real house and it had been foreclosed on. And it turned out someone had bought it in a foreclosure auction for a relatively, you know, for New York City real estate, a relatively small amount of money. They then rented it from this person before he could renovate it so they could make it what they wanted for the tenen bombs. The amount they paid the guy was what he paid for the house. Yeah. I wonder whether or not he kept it as is, like the colors of the walls and stuff like that. Do you think he also has a ballroom? No, but like if you if you have that house, like, and they shoot royal tenon bombs in it and royal

tenon bombs comes out, are you like, yeah, but I got to go back to this like off white, shitty color, you know, like. Exactly. But the IKEA furniture is being delivered tomorrow. Right. One thing that, speaking of IKEA furniture, one thing, this is sort of half-ass internet research and half-ass me noticing research. In my mind, the whole movie is just this like dream scape, Fantasia, and nothing is real, but watching it, you know, for multiple times, suddenly I'm like, oh, that's Boreham Hill. Oh, they really did film this at the cruise terminal port or whatever you call that on the West Side Highway. And when they go into the bodegas, like when they're scrapping and yelling and mixing it up, it's not like they greaked out the real products that

that that's the term for like when you pretend that it's just soda pop instead of. Yeah, right. This exists in the real world enough. Like in Chaz's work studio, they have IMAX on the desks. It's just so brilliantly composed that it folds in and doesn't pop out. I mean, shoplifts gummy bears, for God's sake. No, I mean, Margot's cigarette brand is an Irish cigarette brand that was discontinued. I think like the late 70s of the 80s.

So maybe that's just two boxes that they had as props. Do we have a segment on this podcast where Chris's smoking corner, which just weighs in on like how people are smoking, how cool it looks, and what it must have felt like? She's an OG vapor. You could make the argument that Margot Tenenbaum invents vaping. Totally. Did anyone ever vape before Margot Tenenbaum?

Certainly not as well. Or for his brief a time, by the way. Recasting couch is tough. I think that we could spend all day trying to recast the siblings. I was going to ask you, if you were making this movie today, who would you have play Royal? Oh, God. You can't spring that on me.

Well, I'm going to say, I want to pick somebody who has had an illustrious career who I think has done some really amazing work, though nowhere, I don't think, I think even this person himself would admit not necessarily on the level of Hackman. Yeah. And needs something in the, say, I don't know if I would call it the last act of his career, but in this latter part of his career. Who I've got someone, and I wonder if it's the same. That sort of brings him back to the four as like a great performer.

And that's Robert Downey Jr. Wow. Yeah. I would love to see Robert Downey Jr. do something like this, even if it's, you know, maybe not West Anderson,

maybe, whatever. But this is the kind of thing where it's like, you've wasted like 15 years now on franchises. Like, make a real movie. I think that's fascinating.

I think he's obviously still a little too young to be the sort of graying Patro Familius, but I think you're, the way you framed it up is exactly right. I think the challenge

is I don't remember the last time I saw a genuine emotional reaction in Robert Denny Jr. It's probably someplace in Iron Man 3, yeah. Which was a great movie, which doesn't invalidate his work over the last 15 years because he's one of our great movie stars. And he's fully funneled all of his abilities into aspects of it, right? His charm and all of it. But I don't know if you buy the turn, right? You know who I was going to say? In a completely less expected note, because I'm still hung up on the idea of someone who

be physically imposing and like could command a stage literally, but also do drama and comedy. John Goodman. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Be different. Yeah. Picking Nits. I don't have a lot.

It's hard to, like, this movie is so tightly constructed. It's hard to be like, wait, how did this person get from here to here in this amount of time? My only thing is Chaz's track suits, an adorable bit, but is not ever explained. And I think Ben Stiller asked about the. the track suits and Wes Anderson was like he needs to be wearing something that like allows him to like be on the go at any moment but he's pretty much wearing that stuff I mean I guess he starts wearing that after Rachel dies but like I just never understood like why the track suit and why all the time I assumed it was part of the preparedness training right like he's just honed his life down to

the bare minimum I agree with you it does sort of bump a little bit but it to me it's worth it just for the almost throwaway joke that at his father's funeral, they're all wearing black track suits. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Did you have any other picking knits? I've never understood why Richie says he's going to kill himself tomorrow. I think that that, first of all, I can't remember. That might be a reference to a French film that I'm now blanking on that I didn't take a note on if I remember my research correctly. And also, I think it's just supposed to be that once he decides he's going to do it, he decides to do it. he decides to do it.

Like he says, I'm going to kill myself tomorrow in an almost, like, performative way. And then as that thought enters his brain, he has those series of memories of Margo and, like, where his life is, and decides to do it right away because he's got the razor in his hand. I think that makes sense. I also think that now and at any time going forward, if there's something that you don't know on this podcast, just say it's an oblique reference to a French film. I know. That's right.

I should. When we're doing, like, con air, I'll just. be like, yeah, you know, that's actually a Berton Tavernier reference. By the way, great filmmaker. I would say I had this as a knit, and then I kind of chastised myself. Because watching it again, I was like, well, wait, why does Royal really flip from bad to good? And then I realized this is 2021 brain, where all scripts have to hold your hand through any major character changes. And in fact, he just had never spent any time with him before, and he

liked it. And it, that was it. And it's simple as that. And it's beautiful as that. And the movie works if you think about it. He's a hustler. He's not thinking about two days later. So he's like, I'm going to hustle my way back into this house. And then out of boredom, like, I'm going to start to like these people almost. And I love that scene with him and Angelica Houston where he's like, just completely honest with her. And it's so devastating. But, you know, he's like, I love you. You know, what about this is something I was thinking as I was watching it? My answer is no. But I can't think of any other movie that gilds the lily to this degree where not every frame is exploding with just like an orgy of specific detail.

Like even the Dalmatian mice. Like every one of these things is a choice and there's so many choices. And yet it never, to my mind, it never tips over into silencing. my question for you if there are any nits to pick is there one could you coco chenelle this movie is there one thing that you would take off the final look for me ultimately i think the answer no i mean like i'm not doing an edit on it i i i did the the i watched it once and then i watched it again and the the second watch i just did over the weekend i was like the raleigh st clair plot stuff with dudley while really funny is kind of like do you need this oliver sachs character

and does he even really have any like couldn't Richie have found out everything he needs to know about Margot without the Raleigh character but I like it's just part of the tapestry of the movie so I don't really mind it at all why don't we do some best quotes a lot of these are you know

exchanges this is a great dialogue movie my favorite moment is probably Chaz and Richie after Richie's tried to kill himself and jazz is like why did you try to kill yourself and Richie's like I wrote a suicide note You did? Yeah, right after I regained consciousness. Can we read it? No. Can you paraphrase it for us? I don't think so. Is it dark? Of course it's dark. It's a suicide note. There's a lot of morbid you were in the movie. Royal saying anybody interested in grabbing a couple of burgers in the cemetery? Royal's saying, I'm very sorry for your loss. Your mother was terribly attractive woman. That's the second biggest laugh in the movie. Thank you for mentioning that. You know, all the dialogue around Richie's meltdown when Bomber goes down. I don't know, Jim, there's obviously something wrong with him.

He's taken off his shoes and one of his socks. Actually, I think he's crying. How about the funeral when he's like, all right, bomber. And he just does this like cool jive. Look. It's just incredible. It's a small detail. Eli and Richie, and Eli's like, I wish we had done this more when I was a kid.

But you didn't have a drug problem then. Yeah, but it still would have meant. a lot to me. You know, Royal saying, you know, Richie, this illness, this closeness to death,

that's had a profound effect on me. I feel like a different person. Dad, you were never dying. But I'm going to live. Oh, Richie, this illness, this closeness to death has had a profound effect on me. I feel like a different person.

I really do. Dad, you were never dying. But I'm going to live. Love that. And I love one. Eli is on the phone with Margo and says, why would a reviewer make the point of saying

someone's not a genius? Do you especially think I'm not a genius? You didn't even have to think about it, did you? Let me ask you something. Why would a review make the point of saying someone's not a genius? Do you think I'm especially not a genius? You didn't even have to think about it, did you?

The way this movie just aims its sniper rifle on the cult of Cormick McCarthy and a very specific kind of next next great American novelist is so funny. And it's funny in the most perfect way in which that if you care about when authors are photographed for the covers of literary magazines, you get it a lot. And if you don't care about that, you still think it's funny.

I mean, all of it, the cover of Old Custer. My all-time favorite quote from the movie is probably... Well, everyone knows Custer died a little big more. What this book presupposes is maybe he didn't. Think about that all the time? use it all the time. Yeah. Because in some ways, did this movie invent the take machine?

This movie actually invents all television, where it's like, yes. Emily Dick is, but what if she was cool? We all know Nurse Ratchet is a minor character in a 40-year-old movie, but what if she was the star in a TV show? Why not? This movie was deeply influential in Hollywood in ways we didn't appreciate. Everybody knows detectives or liars, but this show supposes is what if they were true? Everybody knows that nobody wants to be a bad man, but what if this man was...

So, okay, so let me just run through them quickly. You've hit almost all of them. Everything Eli Cash says, everything drug-related and mescaline-related. Wildcat. Just put it on a plaque. I think about Wildcat all the time. I mentioned, look at that old grizzly bear. You quoted frisclating dusk light.

Royals Gravestone, which is just the final, final, final laugh, which just died tragically rescuing his family from the wreckage of a destroy. Sinking Battleship is both hilarious because destroyed and sinking are both there. It's also the movie. It's true. And I love that so much because, you know, love jokes that hit you while they hug you or hug you while they hit you. I mentioned it's been a rough year, dad. But look, feet to the fire, dog blood on my face.

The thing that really, really, really makes me laugh is when Seymour Cassell, pretending to be a doctor says the only thing to do for Royal is to push fluids and continue the stomach cancer medication. Danny Glover being like, is that a tick-tac? Oh my God.

Just like Danny Glover's book when they cut to the book that he wrote. Everybody's books are amazing. Could this be remade as a 10-episode? Netflix show? No, but I would take a six-hour version of this on HBO. My response to this,

and I wrote in all caps on my word document, burn this question to the ground. Okay. probably unanswerable questions. I kind of answered this with my Chaz's point, but I am always curious about how the Tenabombs sort of funded their lifestyle. I think obviously, Royal was a, you know, a litigator in the 80s, probably made some money there. Chaz, I think, is the one who's like, Chaz and Richie, I think are pumping a lot of funds back into the family, though. Well, if they own the house outright, you know, they have all fallen on relatively hard

times. Right. And I think, what does he say to Margo? Didn't you used to be a genius? Right. You used to be a genius. By the way, he says that right after he sees, you like, climbing out the window. And he says, I know you, asshole. Which, which, and then, what's his, Owen Wilson's reactions? He just kind of salutes him? No, he like points up at him. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, I don't want this to be remade. I think this is a perfect movie. It's a perfect movie. It's a perfect movie. it's one of those movies that's kind of seamless. Like you couldn't find the thread to pull, you know, they're obviously in other movies or in other expressions of his muse, like a criticism you can levy at West Anderson is that everything is perfect and contained. Everything is a dollhouse. I mean,

the moment in the beginning when Margot has made these dollhouses and the light turns on inside of it and the plays within the plays, I mean, it's just that that's who he is and what he does. This is him at his best because you can't, you can't change anything. It is just, It's just this perfectly joyful expression of what it wanted to be. All right. So we come to the end, then. Who won the movie? Chris, we won the movie because we have it in our lives. No, Gene Hackman.

For me, it's Gene Hackman. Luke Wilson. Wow. Because you still have the stock. You are Chas Tenenbaum insider trading this. I'm Elon musking this fucking Bitcoin. You are going to like pitch your fugitive remake, your witness remake with Luke Wilson. I think he's the sort of beating art.

in the movie and his relationship with Marco. For me, I think it's Gene Hackman just because I especially appreciate now, not just because we don't have Gene Hackman acting anymore, not just because we don't have any Gene Hackman's acting anymore, but to see a master...

How do you feel, if posthumously, the estate of Gene Hackman releases like a 27 episode biopic of Gene Hackman as Jack Del Rio? that he's been working on for the last like 15 years.

That it was all research? Yeah. For a one-man show, he's performing in Santa Fe, Rep? It's called Jack of All Trades? It's Del Rio Grande. Oh, that's better. Yeah.

Jack. Yeah, I mean, you kind of admire, there's a version where you squint where you're like, Gene Hackman, American icon, leaves at the top of his game with this performance glistening in our minds

and leaves to a beautiful retirement in sun-drenched spiritual Santa Fe, New Mexico. And then there's the version where you remember that after this, he took the bag for Welcome to Mooseport, and then just Vamuz to a life of writing like subpar naval thrillers and doing the voiceover for Marine documentaries

and getting in biking accidents in Florida while visiting coach Jack Del Rio of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Just watching that 4-3 technique. It's less romantic. You know what I mean? But we can't all die saving our families from the remains of a destroyed sinking battleship. But we will always remember performance in this movie.

Andy, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. This is obviously a big favorite of ours, so I'm glad we got to do it. Thanks so much for joining me.