The Rewatchables - 'The Silence of the Lambs' With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: September 14, 2017

HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan lead us deep into the inner recesses of 1991’s Oscar-winning psychological thriller ‘The Silence of the Lambs,’ starring Anthony Hopkins and Jodie Foster. They pay tribute to Ted Levine’s iconic performance as Buffalo Bill, wonder what would have been with the movie's originally intended cast of Gene Hackman and Michelle Pfeiffer, and rehash their favorite and most haunting moments. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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dot TV. promo code Bill Simmons. Chris Ryan is here. We have been circling this movie for a while for the rewatchables franchise. Chris, are you, size 14. I do feel like I have dry skin

today. Silence of the lamps coming up. You spook easily, Starling? Not yet, sir. A killer is on the loose. Keeps them alive for three days. Then he shoots them, skins them, and dumps them.

A rookie FBI agent is on his trail. He's got real physical strength, cautious, precise, and he's never impulsive. He'll never Stop. But in order to track him down, she'll have to match wits with the darkest of all minds. Just do your job, but never forget what he is.

But he's a monster, pure psychopath. So rare to capture one alive. How clarie, your problem is you need to get more fun out of life. Man, it's a raving maniac. Who knows what he'll do? Ah, wow. Apologies to Joe House. I wanted him as the third person for this, but unfortunately he lives in Washington, D.C.

we didn't want to do this by phone. It's me and Chris Ryan, the OGs, the originals. The original rewatchers on the wall. We've had other hosts for this podcast. You and I have done a bunch. Juliet and Amanda did you got mail. Did a giant point break one? We haven't done one for a few weeks.

Now we're back. What better movie to do than Silence of the Lambs? God, where to begin? It's only the third film to win five of five in the major Oscars. It swept the top five? It would kind of be like if the Oakland A. has won the World Series during any of the money ball years because like Orion pictures, the company behind Silence Lames was like literally going out of business during the award season

during the awards push. So it's just like a miracle that it won all those awards. The five best actor, best actress, director, screenplay and obviously best movie. It has only happened two other times. It happened one night, one floo over the cuckoo's nest. It has not happened since. Came out in 1991. It's the third horror movie. to get nominated.

I don't, I think it's a thriller. I think that that's one of the most interesting conversations about it. I say thriller. I think, I think it's a thriller. I think it uses tropes from horror movies really effectively. There's a lot of like, the night vision scene. There's a lot of walking down hallways that you're not supposed to go down. But they turn all those scenes on their head.

The scares don't happen when you think that they're going to happen. No, it's a thriller. It's the perfect definition of an awesome, awesome thriller. People think it's a horror movie. the first horror movie, if you think of one that way, think of it that way, that's ever won, Best Picture, only the third to get nominated. Hopkins, in 1991, Anthony Hopkins, as Lecter, and one of the great performances, I would say, of the last 30 years.

Less than 25 minutes of screen time. He has either eight or nine scenes total. He only has four scenes with Jody Foster. He beat out De Niro, Bridges, Nolte, and Robin Williams. That's good year. for the Oscar. Is this the best supporting actor or best actor? Because I've always felt like it was the best supporting actor.

Well, this is sort of also where you start to get into people being put in positions. Like, did Anthony Hopkins didn't spend any more time on screen than Sean Connery did in the Untouchables? Right. But Sean Connery got nominated, I think won for supporting actor. And it was a real like make good on his entire career kind of award. And in some ways, that's what happened with Hopkins here. But they can manipulate this stuff to, give people their best shot.

I'm not sure who was nominated for best supporting actor that year. I happen to have that information, Chris Ryan. If he's nominated for best supporting actor and he wins, we never get Jack Palance and city slickers. Oh, my God. We never get the push-ups. And then we never get the following year where the best supporting actor winner hands out best supporting actress.

Yeah. And he allegedly said Marissa Tome, even though somebody else won. Even though Mirosorvino won, is out the thing? That was, though, is the urban legend? Who knows if that's true? So none of that happens. And if he's not nominated for best actor, who wins out of De Niro for Cape Fear? Jeff Bridges for...

Is that Fearless? Fisher King. Rabin Williams for Fisher King, Nick Nolte for something. I don't even remember what movies those were in. I think De Niro wins for Cape Fear. And kind of argue he has a case anyway. Well, they're not similar performances per se, but they are both like thriller villains. It is interesting to think about that, yeah.

He kind of became the Cape Fear guy, Max Katie. Yeah. Southern accent? Did you ever the Southern accent should have gone terribly? It went great. Jody Foster, in general, a year for bold female characters. I was actually taking a movie class at Holy Cross this year and all these moves are coming out. We're writing about them.

She beat out Susan Sarandon and Gina Davis for Thulman Louise. Susan Sarandon should have won the Oscar that year is my first. It's not a hot take. It's a lukewarm take. I think history's on my side. Susan Sarandon's the best out of those three performances, in my opinion. You could make a case this Sansa Lames is actually better with other actresses. I'm also not really...

Susan Saranin throwing like 101, like, because that's coming off of Bulldooro and Thelma Louise. Yeah. It's just a... It was a slightly harder performance, I think. But anyway, Jonathan Demi beat out these four people for Best Director. John Singleton, Boys in the Hood. Ridley Scott, Thelman Louise. Oliver Stone for JFK, your favorite movie.

Gosh. And Barry Levinson for Bugsy. Oh, wow, Bugsy. Which Bugsy had, for some reason, carried Oscar weight. It's a movie that has no... There was a time where Premier Magazine would essentially, like, if Warren Bady was doing it, if Warren Bady sneezed in Beverly Hills,

there would be like a special issue of Premiere Magazine for it. So I remember when Bugsie was coming, it was like, is the world ready for Bugsie? Oh, my God. And it was like, Bugsie came out and it was like, yeah, it's pretty good. He didn't get, he didn't even get nominated. for it. No, that was like a huge, I think that was like a huge thing for him because he makes a movie every

seven or eight years. So, the reason I brought up Bugsy, Harvey Kytel and Ben Kingsley nominated for Best Supporting Actor, Jack Pallance, which we mentioned, Tommy Lee Jones for JFK, Michael Lerner for Bart and Fink. You didn't know who didn't get nominated? Ted Levine for Jane Gum. It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. What else did the man have to do? I don't know. Has there been a more iconic supporting actor performance since 1990 than Ted Levine? It's probably the highest, like in terms of the impact that he has on our consciousness, you should have gotten nominated for Goodbye Horses alone.

We're going to talk a lot about Ted Levine. But just to set up when this movie came, just where it came, 1991, the 80s had, it was a weird horror movie era, Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, horror movies done a certain way. The thriller had not. not really, did not have really a lot of momentum. Misery came out the year before. Old school thriller, great.

Only a couple people in it. But I think with Stephen King, you kind of associate that almost more with a horror kind of thing, right? Yeah, but like misery was, I don't feel like misery was a Stephen King movie. Like the Stephen King movies of the 80s were like Firestarter and all those kind of old school horror movies. Cape Fear, misery, Sons, and Lambs, basic instinct came out in 92. This was kind of the glory years of this new modern thriller.

When sleeping with the enemy and hand the rocks the cradle, was that around that time as well? Oh, that was the From Hell era. Yeah, that also started. Sleeping with the enemy, I think was 91 too. That kicked off that whole era of Nanny from Hell, X, Y from Hell. Fado attraction, I guess, created it. Yeah. Faton Traction created it and then you had all these copacettes.

Jonathan Demi had not really had a major movie like this before. No, I mean, so this is his 11th movie, 10th or 11th movie, and he comes up through Roger Corman's, which is sort of like the late 60s, 7th. 70s exploitation factory where guys you'd go and you'd make three movies in a year and it would be about like women in prison. They would be kind of be movies. But a lot of people came through working under Corman who went on to do great things. I think Scorsese or Spielberg did. Like a lot of people from that 70s era like kind of came through the Roger Corman system. And he'd made a bunch of just amazing movies, you know, something wild.

Married to the mob. He had made that Talking Heads movie, stopped making sense, which is probably the best concert movie ever made. It's incredible. So Demi, unlike now, where, and we just saw this with the guy Colin Trevoro, who got let go from the Star Wars movie, people make one or two movies, and they're handed these enormous projects. Like, you know, you got to go make this Marvel movie or Star Wars movie to varying results. This is more of a time when you would make like five, six, eight movies to get your sea legs

before you were given something this important. And Silence of the Lambs had a kind of interesting production. or development history. Hold on. Save that because we need to. But it was a best seller. Like people were anticipating this. Well,

what's interesting, I didn't realize until we did the research, Manhunter comes out in 86, which I love. I'm pro-Manhunter. I'm going to say, I will say up top, I like Manhunter more than Sons of the Lambs,

but I love both movies. Yeah. Miami Vice era. Just the way they use the Florida and everything is just, but it didn't do well in the box office. So Dino de Laurentis, who owned the rights to all this stuff,

felt bad that the movie didn't make the box office money back that they spent on it. And he just gave them this book. They didn't have to pay for it, which is crazy. And we'll get to later who ended up buying it. But one thing I was shocked by, because it feels like Anthony Hopkins is a major, awesome, iconic actor. And he just wasn't until this movie came out.

And you go through the 80s with him. The most famous movie he'd ever been in was the Alpha Man in 1980. the second most famous was maybe the bounty with Mel Gibson in 1984 because it was post-road warrior and Mel Gibson had a lot of momentum. He was ice cold when this movie came out. Yeah, I mean, he was a great part.

It's hard to believe he was the one that got the part. Kind of comes up after he's like the post-Olivier, Richard Burton, British actor generation. Right, but doesn't do as much stuff as Michael Cain, like, where's Michael Cain would just be in like Jaws 4 or 3 or whatever. Michael Cain was available for this. Yeah, I'm sure he was. He can't believe he was in Hedham Electer.

But yeah, Hopkins was sort of a, you know, like he was doing stage. I think he was doing theater. He was doing Madam Butterfly at the time. Super respected stage actor who had not had the Hollywood success. Jody Foster, she's coming up. She's like, this is the next great actress, you know, as a child actor. Taxi driver, yeah. Goes to Yale.

She's like, I'm going to do it the right way and doesn't get really corrupted by the whole Hollywood system. Then when she wins for the accused of 1988, it's like, this is, great. She's the next great actress. Well, I guess Mel Streep is Merrill Street at that time. Yeah. So she was kind of the big hook for this other than that the book was famous. And then after this movie, her 1990s were really bad.

Here's the list. I was shocked. Little Man Tate, Somersby, Maverick, Nell, which is really, really horrible. What's the opposite of rewatchable? It should almost be on the comedy channel. Home for the Holidays. contact, which somehow made our top 25 space week, I think that movie's atrocious, and in the king. So it kind of caught her at the perfect time,

and then it caught Hopkins right before he had this whole second act as a big-ass star. It's hard to really explain how big this movie was when it came out. I'm not positive movies matter in the same way anymore because there's so much more to do. So do you remember, was this a word of mouth catches on? kind of movie or were you anticipating this like silence of lambs was out there you knew about it you were ready i was in college word of mouth was out it was like this is going to be good this is a time period

where you would get the blockbuster beach read of the year so presumed innocent the firm silence of the lambs everybody you would walk by in the summer had this tattered copy of this it was a huge paperback and hollywood was very good at saying within two or three years we're going to get this on screens if not sooner. And now they do a lot where they buy things before they even come out as books or, you know, they get things made. But we might as well tell the story now about who bought the book rights for this. Yeah, I find this. I didn't think that sounds like, because you watch Silence of Lambs and, you know, we were joking about, I think Zach was saying this before we started. No fat. Just like absolutely you would think that not a single day went wrong on the set.

It's a filet mignon on the bone. Yeah. So the originally, it was bought 50-50 by Mike Medevoy at Orion with Gene Hackman. And Gene Hackman was going to. to direct it. Which is funny in itself, because did Gene Hackman, like, ever direct anything? I don't even know. Okay? So Hackman was pretty popular. Was he famous for, like, his do everything in one take and get off the set?

That's more Eastwood, where he's just like, can we be done by lunch? Okay. But Hackman bought the rights. He was going to direct it, maybe starring it, or maybe he would just play Jack Crawford. That was, like, sort of... By the way, still should have played Jack Crawford. But Scott Glenn's amazing in this. And they hired Ted Talley, who have, you know, wrote the screenplay.

It's one of the great screenplays that, like, last 30, 40 years. And Mississippi Burning comes out, very controversial movie. And Hackman's daughter tells him, you can't make Silence of the Lambs. It's way too violent. And so he backs out. And he backs out. And I think that Orion basically gave him the half of the money that he had put up for the movie. And they take it over. And they bring on Jonathan Demi. And when Jonathan Demi comes on, they start searching around for different people to play Lecter. Apparently, Sean Connery, like not only said no, but it was like absolutely not. This is grotesque.

No way. And there had been talking about a bunch of different people, whether it was, you know, Connery said no, Hackman was out. Jeremy Irons, too. Yeah. Wouldn't do it because of, was it because of reversal of fortune? You didn't want to play two bad guys in a row? Well, he won the Oscar for reversal of fortune, right?

Understandable at the time, he didn't know this was going to be. How would Sean Connery have said the electorate's, A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his lover with father beans. No, it's not going to work. Ed Harris turned out Jack Crawford. Yeah. Because he wanted Lecter.

Yeah. Ed Harris had kind of a heat check. It's a little Dionne Waiters of you. That's a heat check. Michelle Pfeiffer, first choice for Clarice. We can have this conversation. I think that that is... Turned it down, too violent.

I think it would have been interesting. And she had worked with Demi before I'm married to the mob. When I heard that, I was like, oh, man. That would have been really cool. Meg Ryan turned this down too. This was when Meg Ryan was getting offered anything and everything because she was a gigantic, lovable star, which led to her being cast in the doors, which was such a misfire. I'll defend the doors to the death, but the Meg Ryan casting, wow.

So the point is this movie could have really gone wrong if Gene Hackman's playing Hannibal Lecter. This movie is now, it's on cable at 2 in the morning. It's not even on a good cable channel. It's on like Encore West. So let's go through some categories. But before we do, I want to talk about Sonos, and I want to make weird noises with my computer. If you want to experience TV movies and music with sound you can feel from a speaker,

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code rewatchables. So rewatchables, one, zero. Okay. We're going to bang out the categories and we'll be able to talk about this fantastic movie. Most rewatchable scene.

Here's what I have. Clarice sees Lecter for the first time and we meet Biggs. Yeah. Lester takes out two officers who made the mistake of bringing him dinner and not making sure he was handcuffed.

The ambulance escape, the entire put the lotion in the basket scene, or Clarice drops in on Jane Gum. I'm going to give you those five. So I'm going to go, Lector attacks the two guards with the opera playing in the background. I concur. That is the scariest thing that I was so haunted by that when that happened. I'm going to go even further.

From the moment she goes to see him in that crazy, whatever, that fifth floor mock jail set up thing, which was really poorly designed for put a camera in there. Just put one security camera somewhere in the fifth floor. She goes in, they do the whole thing, the covet. Do you hear the lambs crying, that whole thing? Dr. Lecter, Dr. That goes right to the dinner scene, which goes right to the, what the hell's going on to the fifth floor, which goes right to the bleeding elevator, which goes right to the ambulance.

He's wearing his face. Oh, he's wearing the face. I mean, it's one of the best, like, 22-minute sequences of any movie. It's incredible. So we both agree. Lecter taking out the two officers. Is it just the best moment of this movie? It's one of the best moments of my life.

It's unbelievable. And the fact that before they foreshadow it, Dr. Chiltern says, you know, he attacked this nurse and his pulse never rose above X number so that when he attacks them in the cell and he's so calm and he's just like swinging the club and stuff, it's just like, oh, it's great. Yeah. It's kind of the best movies have these little moments you can see in your head and you can kind of just indelibly etched him just with the baton, the police baton. I'm just like calmly just taking them down.

Best casting, what ifs we did already? What's aged the best? A lot of options for this. I'm just going to rip through them. The concept of a face eating serial killer also happens to be a genius. It's great. It works right now.

2017, I'm in. Buffalo Bill slash James gum. I like the Jame and not the James gum. Yeah. I've never met another Jame in my life. If we were hiring someone for the rigor, I'd be like, hey, here's a, Here's James.

If you were Harry's the ringer, would you be like, do you really like butterflies? Is that like a number of one question? His name was James. I'm like, how have you not changed that yet? You're the name of a serial killer. The Lecter mask slash stretcher is completely underrated now, 26 years later. It is just magnificent. I remember after the art test melee joking that that's how they should have wheeled rudder test out for pacers.

We mentioned the lamb chop elevator ambulance stretch. which is outrageous. Night goggles as a murder aid. Amazing. Was this the first movie that used night goggles as a murder aid? I think, well, there's a scene in Manhunter that definitely takes place in the dark.

I can't remember. Night goggles, this is the most problem to use of night goggles in a Hollywood movie. Until Rick Solomon and Parris Hilton. There you go. That's like number two. He did it.

Zach Mack said, if he ever murdered anyone, it would be night goggles and dark. That's pretty chill. He said he wouldn't murder anyone, but if he did. Patriot games rate night goggles. A lot of night goggles.

The last 40 minutes of Zero Dark 30 or Night goggles. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough to pull off. This movie pulled it off. I actually hadn't watched the last half hour in a couple years. And I wanted the night goggles to be dated. And it just not, there's nothing dated about this movie other than no cell phones.

The concept of your first murder being someone you covet, I think that's age really well. Yeah. It made me rethink like any murder investigation ever. Like, go look at the first person. It's probably somebody that had been. been circling for a while versus totally random. The music's great. I can talk about the music all day long.

The music's just great. It just makes me scared. They've got like a Bernard Herman Hitchcock score going throughout it, but then the choice of songs in this. Oh, like the Tom Petty song? Yeah. I mean, the fact that Catherine Martin's listening to American girl and singing along to it, which in 91 too, you would have been like, yeah, this song's pretty great.

I forgot about this. You can still watch it today And it says everything you need to know about her In like 20 seconds And you're automatically like I'm really pulling for this girl I hope she doesn't get attacked by James Gum And it's like, oh no Don't help anybody weird move furniture into a van

That is like the biggest lesson of this movie It's a great lesson in life I mean I would hope my daughter would realize it Just don't help people trying to move furniture Don't help anyone trying to do anything With a band And anybody has a broken arm You don't want to know why they broke the term.

Yeah. Pass, no. Van. The Vanishing with Jeff Bridges, that's another one. Like, oh, can you help me if they're in the backseat? And the ending, I think, not just that there's two endings to this movie, which doesn't usually work. But this movie has the, she kills James Gum at the end. Yeah. But then the second ending with Hannibal Lecter and the I'm having an old friend for dinner.

Yeah. Which is one of the best, Dr. Lecter. Dr. Lecter. Incredible. So what do you think is age the best? out of all of those things. I'm going to go with the music only as a tribute to Demi because he was so good at using music and movies.

And I think it actually is one of those really grounding things in this movie. And also like the score is so creepy. Yeah. And it's so haunting. What do you think it is? I think the concept of this kind of serial killer, the two serial killers they had in this movie, it's gone wrong in so many different movies.

And here's one where it's like two of the best ideas anyone's ever come up with for a serab like a genius psychiatrist who also likes to just kill people and eat them well did you know anything about like the behavioral sciences stuff before we saw this movie and that's like the this movie does a great job of throwing you in the deep end but still giving you like because you're basically going along with claris and she's very smart but is still learning the the ropes of like some of these investigative techniques but she already is like training to do it you're kind of of learning it with her, but you're in an advanced state. So you kind of like, as soon as they

start talking and she's in the backseat when they're driving West Virginia, and she's like, well, he's a 30, he's probably a white male because serial killers tend to hunt in their own ethnic groups. And he's, now he's not going to stop because he's got a taste for it. All this stuff that like, in cop movies growing up, the cop movies that we saw, the cops were like Gene Hackman and French Connection or Dirty Harry. And they were just like, I don't care. We're just going after this guy. He's crazy and he left a glove at the murder scene. I mean, like, I guess maybe Dr. Loomis and Halloween is doing a lot of, like, work on, like, who Michael is or whatever. But, yeah.

I mean, I can't think of another detective where it's like we're really investigating the psychology of this murderer. Dr. Loomis was more, he was more the, I watched him for 15 years. It was like a lot of personal stuff. It was like, if you watch him 15 years, why'd you let him out? This one's on you. This one's on you. I'm with you. I think they dive so deep into.

actually putting together a jigsaw puzzle for how they would find somebody. It feels totally authentic. And she's learning. She's gaining knowledge as the movie goes long. And that leads the scene with her and Adelia? Yeah. Think is her name? Cassey-Livens.

Somewhere near the end. And she's like, well, what does he have? He covets. And they start doing that whole thought process. And she realizes the first victim, she's got to circle back and find out. But it's not one of those, like, in some of these movies, you have a moment like that. And it was like, how did they get to that point? That's weird.

Like the light bulb moment. Yeah. Like, oh, you've just figured out this incredible conspiracy because you were staring at a cork board or something. Yeah. The light bulb moment is earned.

Yes. Which never happens. It is one of the reasons this movie went five for five in the Oscars. I forgot to mention for what age the best. Jonathan Demi, he did this with Silence the Limbs and then Philadelphia right after,

which in terms of won two punches for a director. Yeah, it's 91 and Philadelphia's 93. He won the best director for, both. Yep. Doesn't happen very often. His movies had that distinct tactic that now so many people use, you wouldn't even realize it, but where he would have the actors say the line, they're staring into the

camera. I wanted to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. So did he invent that or did he borrow that from somebody? But I think that he definitely uses it in a way that. I don't know that anybody had ever done that before. I think that there's like in some French New Wave movies and there's like a lot of like,

I'm sure, experimental films that use extreme close-up with the actor directing their dialogue into the camera. But I think that in this movie, I was re-watching this on Sunday, and it's just like you immediately feel so close to the characters because the characters, and especially Clarice, like when she first meets Jack and Jack's talking, he's talking straight into the camera. She's talking a little bit camera right to Jack. So you feel like you're Clarice. You're getting talked to. and he's the one who's like, and the fact that he's basically using her as bait is part of this.

It's like the way that they do those close-ups, it makes you feel like you are so, you're in the cell with him. You are in these little dingy offices with the FBI guys. It is such an immersive tactic, and it makes you feel so close to the actor. I mean, you just can't not think,

the fact that we're talking about, oh, well, who else would play these roles? Nobody. Because like you're just, you're by the end of the movie, of Jody Foster and Anthony Hopkins's face are Burr. into your mind.

Well, it's interesting. I agree with everything he said. He only picks a couple characters to do it. Yeah. Like we don't, James Gum never stares to the camera. Doesn't do it with any of the victims. And there's so much stuff in the beginning

of this movie. I just want to talk really quickly about the beginning of the movie because I notice a lot of Hollywood movies now, I think, would not bring Hopkins in to about the 30-minute mark maybe. I mean, I think that would be a little bit of a stretch. It's the shark from jaws,

Swayzey and point break kind of kind of He shows up 11 minutes and 50 seconds into the movie. Yeah. Pretty much right after the credits. It's a great credit sequence, which is just following her all through Quantico and she finds out about this case. And she's told her to go on this, do this, you know, fake survey for, for Lecter. And the way the camera moves around her during the credits is basically like following her. We're immediately set up in this world where we're following Clarice and someone's watching her.

She's always being like the guys, every time she passes a group of guys, they like turn around and look at. her and you just immediately like you see how small she is compared to the other guys she's being she's being perceived by something she's being like stalked and it just sets up that scene with lector and his him immediately being like what perfume are you wearing i know what perfume you wear it's like you just it's just it's so effective so but the fact that it just goes so fast and you're like wow we are in this mental institution the criminal the criminal insane criminally insane hospital so quickly into the movie is like so effective yeah and it was this It was nice run for female characters where I didn't even really realize this when I rewatched it.

And then I was doing the research. Like people feel like Clarice was an important character. Yeah. It was the female character in distress who actually wasn't like just Jamie Lee Curtis and running across the house. Yeah. So you had her. You had Thelman Louise and Sharon Stone and Basic Instincty and all these different types of these kind of empowered. female characters and she was definitely a part of it.

The Demi, the tactic of Philadelphia would even work better. I mean, that's a huge part of Philadelphia, which is a movie that has not aged well for the most part just because of the content choices. It's also like largely a five years later. A courtroom drama.

I think people thought it was going to be a movie that was largely about AIDS activism and homosexual rights and it is that, but it's largely like this Denzel Washington lawyer drama. And it's basically the theme of Philadelphia is Denzel Washington hates gays. And then he learns their real people too, which just does not age well, 25 years later. Speaking of not aging well, what's age the worst? Here are our choices.

The opening graphics, unbelievable music and the graphics, I almost feel like they need to just double back. X-Files, yeah. Yeah, it's like that weird early 90s graphic. They didn't know how to do graphics that well. They kind of remind me of Twin Peaks. the Crawford-Claurice relationship, it's like it was missing a scene. That's probably my biggest nitpick with the movie.

There's a scene where they're in a hotel bar at 11 at night and he's kind of hitting on her, but not totally. And we didn't have that one extra something. The trans stuff hasn't aged great because we have more knowledge. But at the same time, like, you're doing a movie about serial killers. Like whatever the serial killer is into is not going to be flattering. to whatever demo he's in. The one bad thing that's happened with this movie is Hannibal, the sequel.

Yeah. That everybody, nobody wanted to do except Hopkins, because he got a huge paycheck. Julian Moore is in there as Starling. Ed Norton. I just didn't like that movie. I saw it in the theater, and I don't even know if I watched it.

Oh, that's that Red Dragon, because they made Red Dragon with Ed Norton. Red Dragon, I don't even care. Yeah. It's just weird. He's older than Lector. He's older than he was in Lambs by 10 years. but it's a prequel.

Yeah. I have a lot of problems with it, and it's tainted how I feel about lambs by like 2%. So people love Hannibal, the show. I think that's age the worst. And I think that one of the things that's tough with this whole thing is

it's one of the most complicated, like, right situations. Like, I guess some people own the character rights to some of the characters. And then some of them are like open. So they can, they've been re-on-on-heal,

they retold the Will Graham story, which is Manhunter. And I think they were working on getting the right. rights to Clarice so that they could do Silence of the Lambs with future seasons of Hannibal, which would have been cool. But yeah, it's definitely not become, it never became the franchise that I think people thought it was going to be. Silence of Lambs, the TV series would be good.

My wife was saying that if they redid this movie, which they should never do since it won all the Oscars, Kristen Stewart would be an amazing Clarice. Yeah. I also just, I thought, I like J-Law too, but I support J-Law for everything. What would James' Facebook page be like? I don't need, you know, like that just seems like it would be like a pretty easy tip-off. You know, like, do you like listening to Tom Petty? Can you help me with my sofa?

I'll tell you, I would be friends with James Gum on Facebook if that page existed. I think the Crawford-Clure-Rice relationship for me is actually. I'll go to the title graphics. I like that you picked that out. Thank you. Have Fast Internet Research Corner. Jody Foster said during the first Lecter-Cla-Rise meeting, Hopkins mocked her southern accent, improvised it on the spot, threw her off the horrified

reaction is genuine, she felt personally attacked by him. Yeah. And he did it for effect. I love when the actor, when the really good actors freak out the other actor as a way to get a better or whatever from them. Yeah. Sir Anthony. And it was something about how like it sounded like Californian, the way she was trying

to do like a suppressed Southern accent, but that it fixed it somehow, like getting... It's not a great accent. It's one of my many problems with her performances. James Gum, combination of three real-life serial killers. Ed Gein, who skinned his victim. Ted Bundy, the famous Ted Bundy, my favorite serial killer. Escaped, went back and killed some more. He escaped immediately went to the sorority house, did more murders.

Ted Bundy wasn't real. How was he a real human being? And then Gary Headneck, who kept women he kidnapped in a pit in his basement. Oh, geez. So it was an amalgam of those three great guys. Gene Siskel gave Silencele the Lams a negative review. Did he really? I think Gene Siskel, it's like, you know how me and Greenwald never agree on anything?

Cisco was your Greenwald. I think Cisco was my movie Greenwald. Okay. Brooke Smith, who played Catherine Martin. Yeah. First major role, gained 25 pounds. Yeah. Really wanted it.

She ate her way to become a size 14. She wanted to be like on Grey's Anatomy and a bunch of other stuff. Are we sure she shouldn't have been nominated? Best Supporting Actress? Does a great job. They're throwing Oscars around left and right. They didn't have Rupert Catherine Smith.

The tuck dance song. Goodbye Horses. By Cue Lazarus. originally was supposed to be Bob Seeger's her strut. And that was the scene that Ted Levine danced to in the tuck dance. Can you, do you ever...

Dance to a Bob Seger song? Does Goodbye Horses ever come on in the car or at restaurants for you? If it ever did out, immediately start doing the jam gum. I would go full jam gum on everybody. At like Gracieus Madre? You would just do that.

What restaurant would put in that song? I don't know. I feel like you're in a bar, somebody puts it on? If somebody put that on in a bar, I feel like every guy in our age group would look around and start pulling their nipples out with Jim gum. Ted Levine insisted on the tuck dance being in the movie.

I mean, did he get, is that his call? Yeah. Ted Talley. Ted Talley. Yeah. Did not know that was going to be in the movie. That must have been a surprise. Yeah.

The whole scene was like improvised, the nipple ring, all that. Ted Levine needed two drinks before he did it. And he also went to a bunch of different bars, trans bars. Talk to all people, did a bunch of research. So did Scott Glenn for a jack. for Jack Crawford, which I didn't totally understand. He was, like, looking at child murder cases and, like, they're still scarred by it.

Scott Glenn worked with a guy who, you know, the quote-unquote, the real Jack Crawford, and they worked with him, like, for research purposes. And they had a lot of, like, political disagreements during the process of, like, Scott Glenn, very anti-capital punishment. And this guy was like, I'm going to show you a bunch of reasons why there should be capital punishment and just had, they had, like, it was very tempestuous working relationship. Scott Glenn murdered him. So you're happy with Scott Glenn as Jack Crawford.

I am happy with Scott Glenn as Jack Crawford. Tommy Lee Jones wouldn't have pushed over top for him? I think Scott Glenn's incredible. That's like the perfect Scott Glenn role, too. Tommy Lee Jones is Hannibal Lecter? No. I can't see anybody but I'm glad it wasn't Redford or Hoffman or Robert Duval or Robert DeVal. Duval was in there too.

How did that happen? Daniel DeLuis was Lecter. It was a little early for him? Well, I'm just if you, I'm trying to think who would have been a better elected. Well, if you're recasting it, you could give it a shot. Yeah. The Silence of Lambs was inspired by the real-life relationship between a criminology professor from University of Washington, a profiler, Robert Keppel, and my favorite serial killer,

Ted Bundy. Yeah. And that's how they caught the Green River serial killer in Washington. So that inspired that. Did you have like serial killer fever when you were younger? Like when, like, who didn't? Well, because they were covered in a different way. It wasn't Nancy Grace yet.

So I feel like they would be like on the National Choir or something. Sometimes it would make, like, people or something like that. And then there would be local news. I'm trying to remember. I mean, the 70s was really when it ran a mock before. Because, I mean, it was just such a better time for serial killers with hitchhikers. Do you remember Zodiac? There was no evidence.

I don't remember Zodiac. I remember the terrible one, which is, was such an unfund serial killer that they would never even make a movie out of him is the Atlanta child killer. Uh-huh. Wayne Williams. Not a great serial killer. They're not like Wayne Williams. But the Green River,

they've tried to make movies from a lot of these people, and really none of them have worked except Zodiac. And I think, and this one, obviously, but it was a fake. But out of the real ones, that had Fincher and all these people, but what other great real-life Syracur? Like, how has the Ted Bundy had not been a movie?

No, I mean, they tried to make Son of Sam. Spike Lee tried to make Summer Sam. It didn't really work. It never works. Did you have any half-ass in research? Yeah, I got a good one. Let's hear it. So you were asking about the Crawford and Clarice relationship

and how it was kind of missing something. So they finished the movie, ostensibly finished the movie. I think it's pretty much locked and they showed it. They had an LA screening of some sort and among the people who were invited by some, like I guess by Orion or whatever, was William Goldman, your buddy William Goldman.

Yeah. So William Goldman comes and he's obviously this renowned script doctor and also like screenwriter and his own right novelist. And there's this whole scene. A 12-minute sequence between Crawford and Clarice where they get in trouble for their investigation, like the Attorney General, like, choose them out, kicks Clarice out of the academy, takes Crawford off the case. And they have like a whole like back and forth, like, what are we going to do? And Crawford's like nothing.

Filmed, 12-minute sequence. They thought it was like the key to the third act was this sequence. They shoot it. And Jonathan Demi says that in this deadline oral history, that Goldman gives him a call the next day, and he's like, love the movie. Just want you to think about that sequence. Just take it out. And Demi's like, I can't do that.

Like, that's like the most... Just think about it. Just take it out. And they go back and they like... Even the editor was like, God damn it. Like, this thing is done. Like, I'm done. They go back.

They take out that sequence so that basically it goes right up to her driving to the house. Yeah. And it just, it worked. It was just, it was like perfect. And this movie is like the tightest hour in 54. minutes. I do wonder what it would have felt like if it was like two hours and 10, two hours and 12 minutes. That's why he's the best. Shout out to William Goldman. He was the same one who read the Goodwill hunting script and was like, take out the part, take out the second half of the

script. Just make it about will hunting. Yeah. I don't care when he starts saving the world. Yeah, doesn't become like a secret agent. It became like a spy. Yeah. So I thought that was really cool. That's a great one. Really else like, you know, like we covered all the other stuff with the hackman and stuff. But I thought that the William Goldman thing was really interesting. We have some great categories up. I want to talk quickly about bomb fell. An online personal styling service helps men find

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All right. Now we're in the entree part of this podcast. You can get you some V-O and some Fav-V-B-E-N-Crest. The Dion Waders Award, Best Heat Check Performance by a role player. I'm just going to go. We know who wins. Yeah. We've never had one where it's just clearly there's no argument.

We just move on. I'll go through all the nominees, though, just so they feel good about themselves. The guy who played Dr. Frederick Chilton, aka Anthony Heald, whose name I never knew until I looked it up two days ago. He's really good at beating that guy. Oh, my God, is he a guy? He's such a that guy. I don't even know what other movies I've seen him in, but I know he's been in 10 movies that are like, Charles Napier. I like to admit this.

as Lieutenant Boyle, great death scene. Yeah. Yeah. Just hit the great scream. What did he say? He's like, you treat me right? I'll treat you right. Yeah.

Chris Isaac. The peak of Chris Isaac, which we're going to get to. And then finally, of course, Ted Levine and his Buffalo Bill, so great in this movie, so robbed of a best supporting actor. I rooted for him every time I saw him ever since. I remember when I went to see Heat and I didn't know everyone who was in it. And when I saw Buffalo Bill and Heat, I was already. having the best time I had in 1995.

I was also like, you guys got to keep an eye on this detective because I feel like he's going to do something super creepy. Or he's going to get killed. But he was probably pigeonholed a little bit by that role. Yeah. It's hard to not see him as Buffalo Bill. Apex Mountain. Great.

So he, by the way, I don't think anyone's ever won the Dion Waders Award more convincingly than Ted Levine. I don't know if we'll ever say it again. It is, he goes, he takes eight shots, all from three, all are 25 feet or more. he makes all of them. I think his plus minus is like plus 38 for 12 minutes. His team was on a 38, it's just incredible. Apex Mountain.

Anthony Hopkins, yes, yes. This is the Apex from Ted Levine. Yes. Yeah. The Apex not just for him, but for all actors. Jonathan Demi. I think it's not making sense is Apex Mountain for him. But that's not, it's not a diss.

I just think that. That's your little Generation X early 90s, all, all, all take. talking about. I don't you like to talk about it? How is silence of the land? How is that winning five to five of five in the Oscars? I think that's, yes. Okay. So I'm being a hipster about it. So creatively you're saying stop making sense, you'll still go.

Yeah. And I also, yes, that or something wild. Is that because every 1990s NBA draft pick use David Burns suit and stop making sense? Chris Isaac, would you go with this or the video of him riding around on the beach with that girl? Yeah, it's wicked game, man. Wicked game. Come on.

Top 12. video of all time? Yeah. It's certainly one of the best of the 90. Jody Foster. I think so. I can't wait to get into it about Jody Foster.

I agree with you, by the way. I think this was her apex. But you're just not happy about it. I thought she was great in the accused. I actually thought it was a better performance. Just from a pure acting performance, I would give her that. I also really liked her in Panic Room.

I like the movie Panic Room. It's got flaws. It's got holes. She's good in Panic Room. She's good and inside, man. But that's not like an Apex Mountain performance. I just think she's getting it. I would say this is because it's certainly her most iconic role.

And winning the second best actress Oscar is really you're laying it down at that point. A lot of people have won one when you win the second one. It's a different level. All right. This is probably the greatest unintentional comedy award section we're ever going to have. The nominees. Wow, this is just, it's a murderer's row. Chris Isaac's cameo.

He's got his one line. He gets out of the van. Is it right, guys? It ever says it's like, clearly I thought he was going to be a big star or they were doing a favor for somebody, but it's a little too much Chris Isaac for about three seconds. Right. Always makes me laugh.

Charles Napier are about to be clubbed to death when he realizes he's handcuffed and he just does a, it just kills me. Catherine Martin near the end. When Jody Foster is in there, she's infiltrated. She's going down and catch James gum, and she's like, hold on a second. I just, and she goes, get me out of here, you fucking bitch. That always kills me.

Don't insult the person trying to save you. I mean, I guess there's a lot of PTSD going on. Yeah. And those are barely top three compared to this. The tuck dance. I don't know if I think it's funny, unintentionally or otherwise. I think it's just like really, really disturbing. Yeah, it's more disturbing than funny.

Yeah. Why are we having this conversation? The unintentional comedy is lotion in the basket. It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it's told. Mr. My Family, okay, cash, whatever ransom you're asking for, they'll pay it. It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It's become like an iconic thing to say.

Well, I got one more for you. Miggs. I don't think that was funny. Miggs has two lines. It's the. Most disturbing over the top performance summer. Miggs is on the Mount Rushmore of like references for you, but I don't know if I would call that unintentional comedy.

The concept of Miggs, that nobody stopped it, that they didn't scale it back. It's like the nine most dangerous people in the world. It's a comb throwing. He whips his cum at Jody Foster. He could have like missed or he could have spat it or no. They're like Miggs.

Now we're going full full scale. He's throwing the cum. Jim Cunningham was just asking this. What happened to Miggs? Did that actor ever go on to be on, like, law and order or something? He's played by Stuart Ruden. Have you been waiting 20 years for somebody to ask you what happened to Miggs? When I saw Silence of the Lams, I saw it when I was in college.

But then I think I might have seen it a second time. But one of my best friends from high school, Jim Grady, we had a long conversation about the Migs scene. And he had one of the greatest quotes I've ever heard of my life. he said, because we're all in college. This is like, he goes, do you think that was fake sperm or real sperm? And if it's fake sperm, where can I get some? Because in college, you just like whip fake sperm.

That would be like the highlight of a Friday night at three in the morning. We'll never know. Obviously, it was fake sperm. I don't know what it was made out of. We obviously came up short on our internet research. I researched it. I looked. I tried to figure out how they made it.

What were the search terms you put in? I put in Miggs, fake sperm. Souts at Labs, Miggs fake sperm. Nothing came up. I want to know how they made it. Okay. Yeah.

I don't even know how they would have begun. All right. So unintentional comedy, put the lotion in the basket. I think that takes the cake over mix. James Gum has five lines and put the lotion in the basket. Here they are in order. It rubs the lotion on its skin. It does this whenever it's told.

It rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again. Now it places the lotion in the basket. Now it places the lotion in the basket. Put the fucking lotion in the basket. Put the fucking lotion in the basket. Those are the five lines. I try to make Zach Mack laugh here. I don't know which one is my favorite,

but I would just tell you this story. It's 100% true. I saw this in Worcester, Massachusetts with my then-girlfriend in college. Oh, Jesus. We're in a pack theater at whatever the famous Worcester movie theater was. To put the lotion in the basket scene, which was allegedly the super scary scene. Yeah.

I was laughing my ass off and people were turning around and shushing me. I thought it was like one of the funniest things I'd ever seen in my life. Went back where I was living. Enough of my roommates had seen the movie over the next week where we could start doing it. And I was immediately all in on James Gum impersonation. And it became probably that decade doing James Gum, not realizing that anyone else in the world thought it was funny. and then the internet takes off and it's like,

oh, everyone thought this is funny. That's good. You found your, you found your, yeah, it's like, oh, this is great. I'm not weird. I'm not the only one who enjoys James Gum. It's just amazing.

And then you scale it back and it's like, this is terrible. He's torturing this girl in a pit. He's putting, he's putting lotion on her skin and starving her so he could make a mansuit out of her. And yet, it's so crazy.

And it's a movie. but uh jame gum man just think if he had that s he's not half as scary if he's james gum i'm not as you're just jimmy yeah jim gum jim's jimmer all right we're gonna pick some nits hot take i think jack crawford was a bad boss i think his plan was risky clorice didn't have a lot of experience he sends her into the dungeon with no protection right to get assaulted by makes to see like it's like this is like basically this is a win-win if she goes in and she gets something that's great if She doesn't. I didn't expect anything. And because Lector's supposed to be so hostile towards Crawford, he's like, I can't do it.

I can't send anybody that's close to me to do it. How would Lector know? I don't know. He's a genius. Just bring in some other FBI agent. Like the goal is you'd get a woman to kind of win Lector over a tiny bit. Is there an experience good looking woman? The thing that might be missing in there is that did they never talk about Will Graham at all in this, right?

Yeah. So I think that is, I don't know whether that was like part of like the character rights situation. But I think like having like, yeah, you know, this guy. you know, he really drove Will Graham. You're right. Will Graham probably got cut out. Yeah. His plan, like, he's like, hey, Claris, no, no, it's good.

We're about to catch him and they storm into an empty house. Yeah. A lot of, I don't know about Jack. She puts her in danger. Her training is so bad, she just kind of waltzes into James' basement over just calling for help, which had a major problem with. Who goes into the basement? It's not like he can leave.

But she's looking for Catherine. I'm calling for help. Sorry. This guy's killed like five people. But she got a drive to go to a pay phone. Oh, there's no cell phones back then. How did she talk to Jack Crawford before? Do they radio?

I don't know. There was some phone call stuff going on. Yeah, I was saying that. You're right. They didn't have cell phones back then. There you go. How bad were the two cops who didn't realize, like they had one job? This is a classic.

You had one job. I think that there was a lot of problems with the senators. Like, the senator being like, you get to go to what, like, Hyannis Port, if you help me with this. Yeah. Was really, like, kind of problematic. And I was trying to imagine if that happened now, I mean, I guess we're concerned with bigger or different things now. But if it was like a senator and the United States senator is making a deal via the FBI with a serial killer about helping them find their abducted child.

Like, would you think about anything else for weeks? No. No, because it would just be like, what is happening? Like, that's happening? And then it would be like, oh, and we're going to let this guy go to plum, island for a week every year. Can you imagine it would be like, and they were also like, but they were like,

you're going to have the SWAT team on you when you're at this place. It just seemed like for all the careful procedures they went through to let Clarice talk to him or anything, when they finally get him into that open space, they're very lucy-goosey with him. This was, that was a runner-up to the picking nits.

I was going to get to that later. Yeah, it's the two cops. It's the definition of you have one job. Your job is to deliver his second meal of the day, which should have immediately made you suspended. Doc must be really hungry tonight. He wants a second veal chap. Handcuff him in.

The one guy's like, do, do, do, like has the door open. This is a guy he's in a dungeon behind glass. Nobody's allowed to get near him. Now they're like, ah, hey, he's just drawing. He's just drawing. Yeah, he had the drawings. Yeah, sure, Doc. Okay, that's not weird either.

I think they both deserve to die. It's my, I think they messed around and they got caught. Lector wearing someone else's face and clothes he's probably crammed into that guy's uniform I studied it the guy's a little skinnier So you think the not noticing it He basically he cut the guy's entire head all the way around Because when he pulls the, it's not just like he pulls the face

He pulls the guy's hair and everything I can't even imagine how much blood that is Certainly enough to spill through the elevator Probably people like they're like Hey you're gonna be fine buddy hang in there Nobody nobody kind of notices from the side.

Well, so isn't that guy supposed to have massive facial injuries so that's why they think he looks like that? Sure. Yeah. Maybe Kate gives him an extra look just one more second

just kind of like, are we sure? Yeah, they needed like a tattoo or something to be like, hey, it's Lector. Yeah. He's got this Lechter tattoo. I thought it's a little hard

to follow the James Gum identity thing. Lecter throws out one name. Yeah. That was my knit I wanted to pick. I didn't, I didn't totally understand. The knit I want to pick is Hester Moffitt, which I really like, it's a great scene when she goes into the storage unit.

Yeah. But her ability, like, and I don't doubt her, that she's like a genius FBI agent, but I was like, I did not get that that was like a pun. Because remember she's just like, actually it was her saying, look within yourself, yourself, self-storage, Baltimore, Maryland. Yeah. And I was like, how did you come up with that? That's like, that's nuts. She's obviously her own, her own genius. You can't swallow your own tongue to death.

You sure? Yeah. Did you Google that too? Yeah. Okay. He would have had to bite his tongue off and then swallow that and choke on that, which I think would be difficult. Right. But apparently he was like, what do you think Lecter said to him to make him do that?

So that was, I had that later in the unanswerable questions. We can talk about it now, though. He basically was just talking to him for six hours and the guy's like, I got to get out of here. I got to swallow my own tongue. Yeah. There's got to be a better world than hearing Lecter wear me down. He kills himself. I can't imagine what he said.

I also like that Lecter was offended by the cum throwing. Yeah. This guy who eats people's faces. Eat in faces. He's made meals out of his victims. He's like, but the cum throwing, come on, guy.

Come on. That's like a baseball manager who doesn't mind like throwing a fastball at a guy's face, but is like, hey, don't flip a bat. But headhunting. Okay, Sparky Anderson, duly noted. Best quote.

We already went through all the James Gum quotes. Here's just a couple other. A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with Fava Bean's a nice glass of kianti. That became iconic. Yeah, also his pronunciation of Kianti. Kianti. Senator, one more thing.

Love your suit. Just the way he delivers that. Great Hopkins. I don't see Gene Hackman maybe saying that as well. That was also, it's an era of movies like with this and Terminator 2 and a bunch of others where like they kind of knew when they had a great line. that would be repeated over and over and over again. I feel like Schwartznaker made he created that.

The breastfeeding part with the senator, which is like, where's this going? And then he goes, toughens the nipples, doesn't it? And that was one of those in the theater. Like, people are like, oh, like it was just too close to him. Hey, are you about a size 14? Love that one. Yeah, that's always what you want to hear when you're on the inside of a van,

moving someone's stranger's furniture. If somebody says that to you when you're inside a van, start kicking and punching. Yeah, if you ever say that to me outside of Jay Crew, I'm running. Right. You don't know what pain is. Yeah. Great line.

And honestly, like, he was capable of a lot of pain. And then my personal favorite of the whole movie when Clarice goes to see him, knocks on the door, Mrs. Lippman, and then he's playing dumb, he's like, oh, she's a big fat person. Yeah. I just love that. Goes to get the index cards. Why not just tell her to leave, by the way?

Any other quotes that you love? No, you got the ones I loved. Oh, and then I left that Charles Napier. Ah! That's a good lie. Great line. All right, unanswerable questions. We talked about fake cum versus real com.

What did Lester say to get mixed to him? So we talked about that. Is it okay to root for Hannibal Lecter in this movie? That's one of the great questions that this movie poses, is that you wind up cheering for somebody who was basically one step removed from Satan. Is he one of the five worst people you've ever rooted for in a movie? Yes. Yeah, so much so that when he attacks Charles Napier, you're just kind of like, yeah, he's free.

It's like, oh, Jesus. Get him, Lecter! I think because in the movie does a good job of this, I can't remember whether, I think it's after he escapes, but Clary says to her roommate at the FBI, she's just like he's not going to come after me. He would think it was rude. So you kind of feel like Clarice is safe. And it also seems by that point that Lector is really only attacking people that he has

beef with. Yeah. Did Catherine Martin keep precious? I hope so. She carries him out at the end. Yeah. After she wounded him with the- She loses the cat, right?

Yeah, but she wounded him with the incredible threw the bone up and pulled the bucket or whatever the hell happened. I don't know how she pulled that off, but it was a Hail Mary pass- I think she keeps it. I think she kept precious. Yeah, Memento.

Would you watch a Buffalo Bill prequel with Ted Levine and it had come out in like 1997? Sure. Why so a matter of fact about it? Because, I mean, wouldn't you be fascinated? I mean, I was really, this movie, like, taps into such a dark idea. I don't know that I'm as interested in the origin of serial killers as much as I am the investigation into them, but I would have been fascinated by it.

I mean, I love, I love these movies. Should Jody Foster have done the Hannibal sequel? No, I think she knew to leave Fallenuf alone. Was Jody Foster good in this movie? I think she's great. I feel like you have something you want to get off your chest. Undo your man suit and explain yourself. So when I found out Michelle Pfeiffer had the role and turned it down,

It was one of those things. I couldn't unsee it. Yeah, it's like shatters the glass. Because then when I watched it again, I watched in the prism of what is this movie like with Michelle Pfeiffer in it? I'm four times more scared. She's a little older. I might believe the Jack Crawford thing.

She might have been a little too old for Clarice, maybe. Maybe like a year or too old. But I just would have bought in more. I think she's a better actress. I disagree. But I also love Michelle Pfe. And I think that the background story of Clarice being the daughter of like a sheriff

in rural West Virginia and all the like the lambs were screaming. No, Michelle Pfeiffer seems like a like a tequila sunrise, fabulous baker boys person. Like she seems like she's always lived in like cocktail bars and like with, you know, like in these like higher places whereas I felt like

like I believe Jody Foster was coming from that background. I could never get over. I still don't think the accent was good enough. And I think Hopkins knew it. My attitude towards almost everything is like never do an accent unless you're Daniel Day Lewis. Never. Yeah. I think this movie with Fyfer, maybe I just like her more, one of my favorite actresses. Yeah.

I've been meaning to tell you this one for a while. Castaway. One of my favorites that I watch over and over again. You think Michelle's Fyfer should have played Wilson? If she's in the Helen Hunt part, I think it's a better movie. Because why? I think she would add a better connection with Tom Hanks. I don't know why I didn't love the Jody Faw.

I think I'm just not a huge Jody Foster fan. I think that's what it comes down to. I just think she's in, never really a hundred. Bought in. Zach, what did you just say about her? I liked her, like, rookie vulnerability. Yeah. She really comes off as new at this and not experienced.

It's fair. Could you've gotten that from another actress, though? Yeah, you could have gotten it from, you know, lector from Duval, but it would have been different. What about Julia Roberts? No. Not in that role? Though I do think that, I just think that Julia Roberts,

there's something also about, like, how Dominion of Jody Foster is. And she's, like, kind of dwarfed by the. the situation and then grows into it, that just really works. Julia Roberts is like a mega star. There weren't a lot of great actress choices back then. It was kind of a glut for up and coming. You know how that comes in waves sometimes? Who won the movie?

Anthony Hopkins, Jody Foster, Ted Demi, or Ted Levine? Jonathan Demi. Jonathan Demi? I would have said Hopkins. I'm going to say Jonathan Demi. Okay. Yeah. Give me your case.

Because I think that he bridged like some of the indie stuff of the 80s. and the independent stuff of the late 70s and the 80s and a lot of like kind of like the things that he had been experimenting with and show that you can make a blockbuster genre movie that was really subversive but also really entertaining. And the reason why this movie is so rewatchable is because every time you watch it,

you notice something different. And that doesn't happen with a lot of movies and that's down to the director, that's down to the way he decided to make it. Also like the guy he used a lot in his career, Tak Fujimoto is the director of photography. And he shot movies like pretty in, pink. And that era now, like from like that mid-80s to early 90s era, like in movies, I really

associate with that guy's look, with that kind of like flat, he shot Ferris Bueller. Yeah. And you just kind of like, oh, we're in like suburban Virginia or like suburban Chicago. And like he shot that stuff really well. But yeah, Demi for me is the winner. And, you know, he passed away recently. So I just, my answer is Stuart Rudin for as banks. I think Hopkins wins. It's, you know, if you're just, if we're just at a bar, I don't know why this situation would ever happen, but we're in a bar and you're just like,

let's start rattling off some of the great performances of all time. And you're like, how do you make fake sperm? After I'm done with that conversation, now I move to that one. Yeah. And we just be like, what are some of the memorable performances of all time? Yeah. This is going to come up in the first eight or nine guesses. Yes.

Oh, my AOL just. said goodbye, literally to the podcast. But yeah, this would be one of the first ones people mentioned. You're not going to get any argument for me. I just, I wanted to shout down me out. I figured you'd have Hopkins. It's a 1A, 1B thing for me. It was almost tough to watch Hopkins in other movies for a while after this.

It wasn't until The Edge, which I'll defend to the death, 97, him and Alck Baldwin fighting bears. Oh, yeah. Wilderness. It's just a great movie. And it was like, that was the first time I felt like he wasn't Hannibal Lecter. Yeah. And since then he's kind of, I mean, not that he's like a paycheck actor or anything, but

I think you can get it. I think Anthony Hopkins is available. He's in Transformers last night, you know. What was the movie he made with Cuba Gooding Jr.? Fracture? Yeah. That's when he became available. He probably owns a mountain in Malibu,

and it costs a lot of money to maintain it. This was another, this was during the era of, oh, somebody to live movie channels, 93, 94, 95. And this was one of the first on a lot. Yeah. Where you'd be like, oh, oh, oh, they're about to serve Lecter Veil.

Yeah, right. Stayed in for 20 minutes. Anyway, wow, silence of the lamps. Did we hit everything, Zach, back? I think that's everything. All right. A pleasure. I'm sorry for the offensive language in this, but what else can we do?

What are the classics? Well, Clarice, take care now to extend me the same courtesy. Bye. Thank you. Thanks so much to Sea Geek. Remember, NFL fans, $20 after your first Seekkeek purchase, NFL tickets use promo code BSNFL. Download the Seek app.

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Don't forget to subscribe to the Reefat. rewatchables. Don't forget to spread the word to your friends if you like this podcast. We're going to do at least 25 to 30 of them. And then it's really up to you guys, whether you want us to keep doing or not. Send us emails. Send us suggestions. We have Cam Collins coming in next week to the ringers coming to L.A. I don't think he hasn't been in the office before, right, Chris? No. Cam Collins is coming in. When do you leave? Friday. So I'll be going. Well, Camp Collins is going to be in your place next week because we're going to bang out a couple of with him. Very excited to have him on there. And then we have a lot of good stuff coming up too.

We have a good list for future rewatchables, including a live show next month. Yeah. We're doing a live rewatchables. We have not told you the location or date yet, but it's going to be in Los Angeles. It's just Bill and I taking painkillers and reenacting Miami Vice. That's going to be the last rewatchables episode is Miami Vice. That's when we're officially out. You and I just look at each other, like, all right, it's time. Yeah. Because I think you and I are the only people who rewatched by Mbibis. Anyway, thanks for the rewatchables.

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