The Rewatchables - ‘The Usual Suspects' With Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: September 8, 2020

The greatest trick The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Chris Ryan ever pulled was convincing the world they didn't exist. We head to the docks of San Pedro to rewatch ‘The Usual Suspects,' starring Kevin Spacey, Gabriel Byrne, and Stephen Baldwin. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Rwatchables is brought you by TikTok. TikTok is the place to discover new music and artists from the latest dance trends to viral video duets. So much of the content I hear about started on TikTok. You discover something new each time you open the app, even your favorite throwback song bubbling up again. Discover more on TikTok. Chris, you should start an Al Pacino impression TikTok account. I think it could get a few million. We're also brought to by Heineken, the original logger made with natural ingredients with

pure malt and their famous A-Yeast, which makes Heineken, an all-season all-the-time kind of beer. Like right now, coming out of a Labor Day weekend, I'm sure you had a couple of Heineken's, right? Oh, every night. Yeah. Delicious. One of the things, the green bottle, when it gets nice and frosty, it just feels like you're having. It's like the platonic ideal of beer when you're holding that green bottle. Pick up a pack or have it delivered today.

And drink responsibly. We're also brought to you by the ringer.com and The Ringer podcast. Network. Coming up, the greatest trick Chris Ryan ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist. And just like that, he's coming up right after this. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Who is Kaiser Sozay? Anybody goes in there, is not coming out of life. Five men must find a myth. Kaiser Shizzy.

Before it destroys them all. I'm going to finish this thing. He's here. Now it's paid back. And like that, he's gone. The usual suspects rated R. All right, Chris Ryan is here. It's the 25th anniversary there about one of the most influential, important,

impactful, rewatchable 90s movies that we had, the usual suspects, which over the last five years has just faded away. And there are a variety of reasons for that. but we're in the midst of cancel culture in 2020, and things go away. But usually it's people. In this case, it's a movie that if you just watched a movie knowing nothing, you would think, wow, this is an amazing movie.

Why hasn't this lived the same way that heat lived on and Pulp Fiction and Bougainites and all these other ones from the 90s? And yet it's faded away. And there's two specific reasons for that. One, the director, Brian Singer, you could go on the internet and Google a whole bunch of bad stuff about him. And then Kevin Spacey, who famously was one of the first people got canceled for a variety reasons that now is not even really acting anymore.

These are the two most important people in this movie. Chris Ryan, can a movie get canceled for nothing that had anything to do with the movie? I think I'd want to start by making a little bit of a distinction between the idea of cancel culture and reckoning with the legacy of a piece of art and the artists who made it. And whether or not, you know, by basically giving something a platform, by talking about something in a reverential way, which is we're going to do with usual suspects, we're essentially alighting or ignoring the trespasses and the, you know, alleged crimes that some of the people, the main people responsible for this film, Kevin Spacey and Brian Singer, committed or are accused

to committing. So it's really complicated. I think the conversation about whether or not you can separate art from the artist has been going on a lot longer than what our current conception of cancel culture, so to speak, is. I don't even know really what cancel culture means per se. This is as simple as saying, can you enjoy a movie made by people who are likely monsters? It's been a theme throughout our lives, right, with sports and movie and TV, where you're kind of weighing the benefits of being in on something when you're not sure about one of the people involved. We see this in sports all the time. You know, you see your favorite football team is able to get some running back in the third round who was the first round talent because he did something terrible. And then you think like, oh, well, that's not a guy I really want to run.

Roof for. I remember writing a piece about Michael Vick in 2010. And that was a good cancel culture guy, right? But before the days of cancel culture where did this terrible thing, paid a huge price, right? Right. Did, threw himself into it after, tried to learn as much as he could, tried to be an advocate against animal abuse. There was some cultural stuff too that I think people started to realize that might have been one of the reasons who's in the situation who's in. And I think ultimately it ended in a really good place. There's still people who hold it against Michael Vic and are out completely.

In this case, with Spacey and Singer, it's a little darker. But the point is, like, it's a case-by-case thing. I think we evaluate a lot after the fact, things like that. But for me, it's like when you're talking about movies that just have a beginning, middle, and end that happen in a certain year. You have to take all this stuff into context when you're evaluating it, right? Like Chinatown, which is one of the greatest movies of the last 50 years. I'm not even talking about the incest revelation at the end.

That's one of the biggest plot to us probably the last 50 years. But Nicholson beating the shit out of Fay Dunaway to get the confession out of her, which is a scene that would just never find out. You're talking about stuff that happens on screen, not stuff that happened. Yeah, stuff that happens in a movie where we're like, oh, shit. I think another good example is the verdict, which is one of my favorite movies the last 40 years. I still think it's the greatest Boston movie ever.

Paul Newman punches Charlotte Rampling in the face after he finds out she betrayed him. And she really betrayed him. But when you watch it now, it's like startling. Like it's really, really hard to watch. And it was hard to watch it in 1980. And then 40 years later, it's going to be impossible to watch. Movies are a little different because they're rooted in a certain time.

you have to bring the context into it in some degree. And, you know, it's everybody's own decision, right? And you deal with this a lot on the watch where you and Andy talk about this stuff sometimes. We saw this happen with Game of Thrones a couple years ago, which I thought was pretty crazy, where all of a sudden there was this whole social media frenzy about how women were treated on the show. And the reality of that shows everyone was treated terribly. Every single type of person was treated horribly. And it's like, who are we trying to protect?

What are we doing? This is a little different. This is just a great movie. And if you didn't know any of the backstories, you'd watch it and go, this is a great movie. I'm really enjoying myself. I watched it this time around thinking, Spacey.

It's just in the back of my head. It's like, was this guy a monster? He's so winnable and so likable and all this. But now there's this little piece that I can't shake. Well, and the same thing goes for Singer for me, because this is such a finely crafted movie that every time there's a really cool cut or every time there's a cool shot

or every time the lighting is kind of neat or whatever, I'm like, fucking singer, you know? And maybe that actually challenges auteur theory and we should be like, great editing, great cinematography, great score, great screenwriting. Like we should distribute the praise

beyond just the director here. But I had the same reaction. I have this whole like, I mean, I, I love this movie. I love this movie as a movie, but it was weird. This is the first time I've watched it

since, like, I think the most recent singer stuff came out in the Atlantic and obviously the Spacey stuff. And, you know, I've had this issue with, like, seeing Spacey pop up at all sorts of movies that we've talked about,

both considering talking about these movies on rewatchables or talking about them on big picture. Like, I was just watching Margin Call the other day and I was like, Christ, Space is pretty good in this, you know? But you just, it follows, you around for those experiences. And it's a really interesting modern conundrum, but it's something

that I think people have been grappling with for much longer than that, which is can you separate the art from the artist? Polansky is one of the first people, right? I mean, he makes a couple of the greatest movies of the last 50 plus years, including Chinatown, which is a masterpiece, and had to flee the country. Hasn't come back since. I mean, what was the last time he was here? And then he wins the Oscar for the piano. And you would think like by 2017 to 2020 range, how we would have treated that versus how they treated it back then. But even this Oscars year, right, Spacey wins. Mel Gibson wins for Braveheart. It's a huge triumph for him in a whole bunch of different ways. And then he does a variety of dumb things. And now some people are out

on him. And that Braveheart's another one that's not on that much. So when we're just talk about rewatchable stuff, usual suspects was on Amazon. But I do think it affects the legacy of some of these movies. It's hard to separate them. I'm able to do it just because when I watch this stuff, I'm just watching it for what were they thinking when they made this, you know? Yeah. And all the choices that you're making in 1995,

how did this compare? It's almost like talking about basketball players. You're like David Thompson in the late 70s. Oh, my God. You watch the highlights down. It's like, yeah, we have a few athletic guards who, did the stuff David Thompson did. But in 1977, there were no athletic arts who did this stuff like this. And you have to weigh that in a context. And I think with usual suspects, what this

movie meant to the mid-90s should not be lost. You're talking about this revolutionary run of the pseudo-independent, but not really because they're getting good actors, but everybody's taking a pay cut. And they're kind of scrapping to get money to film certain things, but not 100%. Like, there's, still, they're okay. Like they were able to get Kevin Spacey and Gabriel Byrne and people like that. But you're talking about pulp and reservoir dogs in this movie and boogie nights and, you know, clerks and mall rats and there's this whole era. And to me, this movie is an OG of that era.

And it's hard to separate this movie from that area. You just can't. Yeah. I mean, all things being equal, I was going to ask you this. So last night I was sort of making up this list of, crime movies since the godfather. So crime movies taking in cop movies, you could be heist movie,

you could be any kind of like movie that's sort of set in the underworld. I think the heavyweight champs are kind of like Godfather, I know that you can't have more than one champ, but Godfather, Heat, Goodfellas, Pulp Fiction, memist of society, I put in that like category. Godfather, too. Godfather, too, where it's not just about the movie itself.

It's about America. It's about something larger. It's about time. It's about, you know, duality and heat or whatever. And then there's lightweight movies like, I don't know, like, Den of Thieves would be like a lightweight category crime would be really, really fun, but ultimately disposable, trying to think of some other lightweight movies. Like maybe like the Guy Ritchie ones, like Lockstock and Two Smoking Barrels or even like Point Break.

I think that there's a argument to be made that usual suspects is the middleweight champion. That pound for pound, it's like an elevated crime movie that isn't quite like about anything else other than just telling the story really well and being like a really well-made crime film. But of that ilk, it's got really, it's got a ton of competition because the middleweight division is like, I think you would say drive and even reservoir dogs and out of sight. Like on a different day, I might say a different movie. But some days, I think usual suspects is the best kind of this, the best of this kind of movie at this weight class that like I've ever seen. Great marketing campaign back in the day. Yeah. Who is Kaiser Sozee? It came. It was summer

95. I really do think movies had a bigger impact back then because we had less to do. We didn't even really have the internet yet. And it was like, who is Kaiser Soce? What is this? What's going on here? And then you see the poster and you see those five guys thrown together. You're like, what the fuck is this movie? Like, these five guys? Stephen Baldwin? Kevin Pollack? Like, what? What is this? And then the reviews started coming. And Singer and McCory had done, what was the movie they did in 93? That was the public access?

Public access. So they, you know, it was this culture where people are always talking about who's the next filmmaker, who's the next Tarantino. And they were high lottery picks. So there's a lot of buzz with the movie. And I think that there was the reservoir dog's blueprint by this point, that you basically have a shoot-em-up, tough-talking script with like that felt hip. and you attached at least one, if not multiple, recognizable faces at a low price point, and everybody participated in the profits. And so that was something like, I can't remember the year of every single one of these,

but that was like things to do in Denver and you're dead, stuff like that, where you get these big ensembles. Yeah, right. It's the best version of this type of movie where it's self-aware and it still really works. Because even like when reservoir dogs and Pulpiction are doing it, they're like paving new ground. Nobody even knows if it's going to work. By the time usual suspects happens, there's a calculating piece to it that you can see in the research where these guys are like, hey, even the title, which they got from a spy magazineer, it was like great title. What if we do a police lineup?

And it's like there's a recipe for kind of how to do this correctly. I think the biggest thing that happened to make this movie what it became was the twist at the end, which we're going to talk about. We're going to spoil it. We're going to assume everybody who's listening to this has seen the movie.

It's a twist that in 2020 is impossible. It just is. This twist happens in 95. It's pre-internet. And as we talked about when we did the Blair Witch podcast on the rewatchable is 99 feet for Illuminary. We were like,

the Blair Witch is probably the cutoff for Blurwich Sixth Sense, 1999. Yeah. Probably the cut off for having a twist, because you had a lot of movies with twists in the 90s. And even like, for this decade, really, it's Gone Girl and Us were the two that were the big Twist movies. Gone Girl, everybody knew what the twist was because a lot of people had read the book.

Us was pretty well done. I think it was mostly protected, but even in the reviews and the stuff about it, it's like huge twist at the end, you know, and you're like, what? I was aware that something was going to happen. And I think that going into it after Get Out, people had a familiarity with how Jordan Peel made movies and I think probably were waiting for something at the end of us, you know? So you're talking greatest movie twists ever.

And this is in the conversation. I wrote down some other ones for you. Sixth Sense. Crying Game. Chinatown. Psycho. Gone Girl and Us. Empire Strikes Back.

I think that counts. Luke. I'm your father. Yeah. Seven. Mm-hmm. Primal Fear. Fight Club.

And Memento. I think those are the ones where it's like, there's some sort of voila revelation. Yeah. Where you're like, oh, shit. And then you're like second-guessing yourself. Like, how did I not see that? But this is the best version of it because this movie painstakingly sets up in

your mind that it's Gabriel Byrne, who is Kaiser Sozzee, and then has a natural ending. Yes. And you're just like, oh, man, that was, I should have seen that. And then Spacey's limping out. And you're like, good one, man. You got me. And then there's another 10 minutes of the movie. And it's like this, well, because, and then you have this very long kind of odd shot of

Chas Palmetry drinking coffee. And he's like, takes a sip. And he really likes that coffee. He's like, that's damn good coffee, David Lynch style. And you're like, how long are we going to watch this guy? You drink fucking coffee. This is the end of the movie. And then it clicks in.

There are a couple of those that you mentioned. There's got it. There's the twist. There's like literally like, okay, so what is the impact of this new information? But there is also like the flare with which you deliver the twist. So to me, this is up there with primal fear with, and I don't want to spoil. primal fear, but, like... Spoil of it.

And he wouldn't listen to this. Should have seen all these movies, but yeah. It's when Edward Norton starts clapping, you know? And when he does that, you can kind of tell because the accent thing that Richard Geer notices, but when he starts giving Richard Gear round of applause, you're like, oh, my God. And it's so, it's got so much swagger to it. So does usual suspects. Crucially, I think that that extra layer of Panache was something that they found in the

editing room, apparently, where they were, they had the end and they had where the misdirect or whatever, but they didn't have the montage and the voiceover that connected it all. Even, you know, even though like, I don't think it was as built into the story as sixth sense was, for instance. Well, it was fucking awesome. It was fucking amazing. I didn't have a lot going on in 1995, as we've discussed many times. And this was probably the highlight of my month, the fucking Kaiser Soze.

Here's another highlight. my buddy Jacko, as you know, who's been on my podcast a million times, my old Holy Cross roommate. We were out drinking after I saw this movie. He hadn't seen it yet. Did you spoil this for him? We're like 12 drinks in.

He did something that pissed me off. And I was like, I'm going to tell you something. Kevin Spacey was Kaiser Soze. And he was like, no, God damn it! And he flipped out. He was like, kick of cheers. Like, God damn it, I was going to see it two days from now. It was so hilarious.

But this was like, you know, there's only been a couple movies where if you saw it, but the other person had it seen it yet, you're keeping this secret. You're just wielding it like this power. But you only get to watch usual suspects unaware once. So obviously the thing that makes it such an impressive movie is that you can rewatch it 20 times knowing exactly what's coming. And some people rewatch movies with big twists. to be like, okay, I want to watch Sixth Sense

and just notice all the little times that it's obvious that Bruce Wallace is dead. I honestly forget 20 minutes into usual suspects every time that Spacey's Kaiser Soze. They set it up where every, apparently, and I didn't even notice it until I did the research after, but every time they have, that they mention Soze, Spacey is like the next shot.

So they do like little subtle cues to do this. Brian Singer described the film as double indemnity meets Rashomon and said they made it with the intent of after people know the secret, then the next time they watch it, they'll be picking up all these different things. So it was definitely intentional. We're going to take a quick break to talk about Fanduel, Chris Ryan. We're teaming up with Fandle again this football season. We've got something new this time around. all season long, you can play the free ringer mega contest on Fanduel. I'm excited because this is my idea.

Here's how works. Five NFL games against the spread every week. You got to pick them. And shout out to my buddy Gus Ramsey because he was doing this in the ZFL. There's a double down pick. So one of those five picks is worth two. So you got it. You look at the slate.

You like five games. Then you really have to decide which one you like the most. You get one point for every correct pick. two, if you hit your double down pick, Fandel will add up your score every week. And if you finish in the top 100 on the season long leaderboard to make the playoffs and compete for a share

of $25,000, it's that simple. So I have not, normally I would say, here's who you should pick, but we're taping this before Labor Day weekend. I have not looked at the lines yet because Cousin Sal and I guess the lines on my podcast.

We're going to be doing on Tuesday night this week. I've stayed away from the lines. I want to do it nice and full. You can play the ringer mega contest for free. Every week only on Fandall. Go to fandle.com slash mega contest. Make your picks today. Fandle.com slash mega contest.

Let's talk about, let's talk about Spacey. Okay. All baggage aside. So he makes the usual suspects in seven in 1995. Not that again. He's somebody that had been bouncing around for a little while. right. Seen him in some things.

He was in Glenn Garrett, Glenn Ross. Movies like, always like character actor parts. He was in the ref. We knew he was. He first came on the scene, I think, in Wise Guy in the late 80s. He played I want to say he played an arms dealer. I like that

show. Oh, yeah. I forgot. Like, over the top arms dealer. It's like, who's this guy? And then was just stealing scenes in movies for the next five years. And then it finally happens for him. wins the Oscar for usual suspects. I found this in my research. How many actors do you think won a best actor and a best supporting actor? They have those two trophies. Best actor, best supporting traffic. Less than five people. Six. Okay. Oh. Including space. Jack Nicholson,

Denzel, Jack Lemon, Robert De Niro, and our guy Gene Hackman. Okay. Pretty elite list. So if you're looking at movies, almost like you look at the NBA, it'd be like how many people have won two MVPs and you look at the list? You're like, oh, those guys are all fucking awesome. Yeah. Spacey. 96 Oscars. He beats James Cromwell and Babe. Ed Harris and Apollo 13, Brad Pitt and 12 Monkeys and Tim Roth and Rob Roy.

As we've discussed on two different heat podcasts now, no heat actors. Who would you put for a sporting actor, Kilmer? Probably from that, yeah. Either Kilmer or Treo, yeah. Little Seismar? Just the whole all five guys from Heat? So between this and seven,

he's a major star after this and it leads to American Beauty four years later. There's never been an actor quite like him who was so alternately creepy and intense but captivating

and it's just kind of weird how his career played out because I always felt like he was creepy. I remember seeing Glenn Gary and I, which I hope he did was a rewatchable one day. And I remember thinking, I'm probably not when I saw it for the first time, but you know,

I read a bunch of stuff in Premiere around that time where he was like so praising of, you know, he's just an awe of Jack Lemon. And I think he always kind of wanted Jack Lemmon's career where it was like, he's not the, not the hottest guy. He's not an action. I think he always, and this isn't even just hindsight, maybe lacked a little bit of Jack Lemmon's

like inherent warmth. Like everybody that Kevin Spacey plays has like a little bit of a coldness to him. But I think that like that was the kind of thing, the career he wanted to have. But what's funny is he was just not a likable person like Jack Lemon. And I think, I think it was hard for him to get that across on a screen. And then once he realized that, that led to some of his best parts. I mean, the House of Cards guy is a great example. I kind of like this guy, but I hate this guy. Well, by House of Cards, too, he's like, I'm going to ham it up. I'm going to really, like, you know, and that was the role that, like, that was a perfect role for like where he was where he's like, I'm going to look at the camera. I'm going to have this extravagant accent.

You don't feel like he does that in American Beauty? Because he ramps it up in that one, too. I think by American Beauty, he's like, fuck it. I'm just, I'm getting weird. He's just under the speed limit and usual suspects. True. Yeah. But would you you think like, you know, there's the De Niro-Puccino generation. And then you have this Spacey generation of guys that kind of, we started to know who they were 89 to 92 range. So that's, you know, like Brad Pitt. I guess he could sneak Matt Damon in there. He's probably a little younger than Spacey. But I don't know, who else would you put in there? Where he's like one of the, one of there's a while there where he's an A plus dramatic actor.

And if he's in a movie, you at least take it seriously. And I'm like, what's this? I wonder, I wonder if this is going to be really good. Which he did have that kind of wait for a few years. I mean, I'm trying to think, obviously people of his generation are a little bit older, like Daniel Day Lewis would go on to continue to make dramatic roles. But Spacey, for the most part, you know, he's in stuff like Outbreak. I think he's in some other action movies.

But for the most part is not a genre star. Like, he usually does dramas or comedies. Right. And could never figure out the comedy piece. No. There was always something very strange about him in comedies. Right. Him and horrible bosses is like, you do know this is a comedy, right?

So, Spacey seems like he had some casting push with some of this stuff, because he definitely recruited a couple guys. But the amazing thing, which I didn't realize when did the research, none of the actors knew who Kaiser-Soset was going to be. I think he filmed extra scenes to fuck with them. So apparently when Singer, so this is what Spacey said on the Colbert Report in 2005, when they screened the movie for all the actors,

Gabriel Byrne was so stunned and upset when he found out he wasn't Kaiser Soze that he stormed off. Went in the parking lot and Singer had to calm him down for a half hour. He was convinced like he was Kaiser Sozze. They didn't know about the last. 10 minutes. So that happened. Gabriel Byrne was like,

there's no fucking coke! Where is it? The other thing is Christopher McCory won the Oscar for Best Original Screenplay and set up a fairly interesting career

for himself over the next 25 years. He was involved with submission impossible movies. He's considered one of the great screen writers the last years, I think, yeah.

Yeah. And he's also probably one of the like best ambassadors for screenwriting and story Like in terms of when you listen to him,

talk, he has these incredibly long podcast appearances, where he'll, like, go into really granular detail about how they made these Mission Impossible movies, and he's just so smart about storytelling. We probably don't talk about the writers enough when we do some of these movies. This is a big Goldman thing in his books, where he's always, like,

they always talk about, like, the director, how great the director did. And he's like, there's eight different people that have to hit a home run for a movie to really work, and the writer is one of them. this is, and we also don't, we don't try to get too snooty when we do this pod.

This is one of those movies where you watch and you're like, man, great fucking screenplay. Which I don't usually say that. I was like, man, this is just really, really, the dialogue's great, the structure's great.

Every decision is just really smart. Some of the best moments in this movie are improvised, but I think if you look at the body of McCorrey's work, like way of the gun and the Mission of Possible movies and you can just see that this is a guy who is just like an expert at writing this kind of movie.

And this is sort of the template. This is as good as you can do. What's funny is the last Mission Impossible movie from two years ago. I think it's probably the best thing he's done since this movie. Because I thought that movie was excellent. We'll be doing that as a rewatchable is at some point this year. That's just great script, great action, great everything, really good crews. Oh, yeah.

But it's interesting now. become almost this like blockbuster visual like visually identified filmmaker rather than like this you know cerebral screenwriter do you think when they ask him

about Chris Nolan he's like eh let's see Chris Nolan fly a fucking helicopter eh it's kind of in my rear view Roger Ebert

he uh he did not like this movie so up and down as we head toward our 153 watch. I think Raj must have had like bad fish the night before he saw this. Like it seems like a movie he would have liked. One and a half stars. I mean, that's beneath?

It's like bonkers. It gets worse. Didn't he like cocktail more than this? Yes. It gets worse. Quote, confusing and uninteresting. Quote, to the degree that I do understand, I don't care. Put this film on his most hated films list.

I wonder whether or not Raj was having guys saying, fuck you to each other in movies fatigue at this point. Because there were so many fake Tarantino, everybody's pointing a gun at one another and swearing, that I wonder whether he was just like, I'm fucking tapping out of this. I'm out. And I'm going to bury the genre with this one and a half star review.

Well, you know, normally he likes when, like, well-structured characters and... This is a very classical movie. Yeah. I'm surprised. Really strange. $6 million budget made $34 million bucks. God only knows how many times it was on from a rewatchable standpoint as a cable movie, right?

I would say probably a 15-year run for this movie. Somewhere in the early 2010s kind of faded away. So just a classic. Before we break it down, can I interest you in some ruffles? Yeah. Do you like ruffles? Ruffles. Who doesn't like ruffles? Well, they have ruffles double crunch chips. They're hardier and crunchier than your favorite classic ruffles with more delicious ruffles flavor in every bite.

That sounds great. Every chip cooked to golden perfection to provide two times the ruffles crunch. How do they figure out two times the russles crunch? I don't ask questions. It's inconceivable. Of the ruffles people. I just let them make me have me. They flavor, they deliver a flavorful crunch with every chip. I'm not surprised. new deeper ridges and kettle cooked. And if you like spice, double crunch hot wings flavor from ruffles. That sounds amazing.

Deep cut ruffles ridges, kettle cooked to crispy, crunchy perfection with the spicy, tangy flavor of classic hot wings. I don't know what would happen if we had those in my house with my son. I just picture him wandering around. You probably find him with a bag over his head because he tried to eat to the bottom. He's trying to lick the resident. He's trying to lick the resident on the bottom. Own your ridges. Find a bag of Ruffles Double Crunch Hot Wings at a store near you.

All right. Most rewatchable scene. The lineup slash interrogation combo. The lineup's just a semi-iconic scene. The first 17 minutes. Masterclass. Oh. Absolute masterclass.

What you're doing. The introduction of the characters, the roundup, the lineup, the interrogation, and the holding pin. Do you want to do Stephen Baldwin in? the lineup right now? Go ahead. I'll give it to you. So, you just got to understand that, like, it's pretty rare to get all the sort of big stars in a movie together doing the same line at the same time. And there was a lot of horsing around going on on the set that day. Apparently, Benichita del Toro was farting a lot. That's why they're laughing a lot on screen. Great fart stuff.

Dway Howard approved. You know, he's up there with some heavy weights. And Stephen Baldwin, who's been, you know, kind of banging around Hollywood for a little while, decides to try and light the film going through the camera on fire. By turning to the camera and goes, Give me the fucking keys. A cucketka motherfucker. Give me the fucking keys, you fucking dachshuck a motherfucker. Lock it off.

Get back. Number three, step forward. And it's like at that moment, you're like, all bets are off. I have no idea what's going to happen. And these guys, I got Benichiel's doing this voice. Kevin Pollack's doing one-liners. Gabriel Byrne thinks he's in a Eugene O'Neill play. And Stephen Baldwin is in a spaghetti western.

It's amazing. Stephen Baldwin's like, someday, 25 years from now, there's going to be a podcast called the rewatchable. They're going to have an overacting award. And I'm going for it. I'm grabbing it. Some other great stuff in there. in the interrogation right after,

which I think has to be included when they're all in the same room. And they start going at each other. And Pollock does the, what would you do if you got thrown into jail? And he's like, fuck your father and then have a snack. You know what happens if you do another turn in the joint? Fuck your father in the shower and then have a snack.

You're going to charge me, dickhead? I'll charge you when I'm ready. Paul's just like, I'm tired of this Lieutenant Weinberg shit where I'm just like Tom Cruise. I'm just setting picks for Tom Cruise. I'm going for it this time. Yeah. I'm getting mine. Get my shots. Clear out for me. Isso. We can place you in Queens on the night of the robbery. Really? I live in Queens. Great stuff. Next one would be the police iced. I love, I love three vans. Let me tell you something. Here's a new rewatchables role. If we have more than one ambush, good movie. If we have more than two things that could

be classified as a heist, great movie. And if we have more than three ambush slash heist, immortal. Citizen Kane. I like when they pour the stuff on the car to set it on fire too, because that's kind of the reservoir dogs moment of this movie. You're like, what's going on? Are they going to burn these cops alive, but they get out.

New York's finest taxi service is just a great, great, like, you just feel so in the world of this movie when they're like, here's this thing you wouldn't really know about unless you, you read the New York Post every day. And it's just like that picking up the jeweler from LaGuardia like that. It's so cool. Next one I have is our first Redfoot scene. And we're going to go into Redfoot later.

But Redfoot comes in fresh off, fresh off trying to rape Ving Rames and the cellar and Pulp Fiction. Is our next sight of him. We're like, oh, this guy. Oh, my God. Here we go. And that whole scene is awesome. I love Redfoot. What do you think, how did they like set that meeting up?

What do you think? So like, McManus calls Redfoot. He's like, hey, we're in L.A. Let me know where you want to meet. And Redfoot's like, there's this great temple by the ocean. Okay? Right. And no one's ever there.

It's totally inconspicuous so that eight guys can go shake each other's hands and have this great backdrop. But no one will notice us. There are parts of L.A. like that that I've noticed just from driving my daughter around for soccer and all these weird venues. Like there's a part in El Segundo where it's like right right before you hit Manhattan Beach

and Manhattan Beach and there's just a lot of weirdness going on and it feels like a number one place you'd probably want to bury a body if you had to get rid of one. But do you often see like nine guys like standing around in a semi-circle? I wouldn't be shocked if there was just nine guys facing each other with car headlights.

Next rewatched busting Kobe Ashi's first scene. Mr. Sozay would like you to stop the deal. If you choose, you may wait until after the buy. Whatever money changes hands is yours. Mr. Sozay would like you to get to the boat and destroy the cocaine on board. And then you will be free of your obligations to Mr. Sozay. Your mother wanted a taste.

I gave her a little taste. That whole scene where he lays out everything. And he's great. And that's P. P. P. P. P. Possible. Wait. Great character actor. But this is probably my favorite version of him. So this is a huge pulp fiction, crime fiction, trope is to have a character, an expositor. Like, my dad used to call him like Basil Exposition, because it would be a character who showed up just to do expository dialogue. And he shows up just to lay the groundwork for the conspiracy that these

characters are meshed in. And there's something so mesmerizing. Also, just a little bit off about Kobayashi. Like, is he English? Is he Irish? Like, I can't quite get it. And then when you realize at the end that he is essentially, while still a character who picks up verbal, but it's a person that Kaiser Verbal is making up a little bit.

Yeah. It really is. We definitely made up the name, but he does. He, at least we know he exists because he picks him up at the end. Right. The Kaiser Soze story. Let him know they meant business. They tell him they want his territory, all his business.

Soze looks over the faces of his family. Then he showed these men of Will what Will really was. An epic three minutes. And just so you know, my second favorite scene in the movie. Second favorite. Okay. I just love it. And I actually forgot, even though I've seen this movie a bunch of times,

that he starts shooting his own kids. It's like, oh, that's, oh, that's right. He's the worst guy who ever lived. He showed these men of Will, what Will was, yeah. And then he lets, and that reaction of the one guy who's like, what the fuck is going on? And he's like, you can go. Yeah. Go tell the story.

So then this poor guy runs back. And he's like, so how'd the Soze hit go? Well, if your parents know anyone who owes the money, you're going to want them to move out that house. We should be afraid of this guy. Let's get the fuck out of here. That seems great. Space is a good job of that.

I still also love like when you watch it the first time, you were like, oh, wow, So says the devil. But like, in retrospect, the way that he is conceiving of himself is essentially like Glenn Danzig. Kaiser Sozze is just like a metal head. Yeah. He's like, mother. The boat shootout. Chris was there any coke on the on the boat?

There's no fucking coke. There is no fucking coke. I've been up and down this ship. I've been at every room. There's no fucking... And then that poor guy in the cell, it's like, he's here. He's here.

I know he's here. That's him. I'm telling you that's him. I know he's here. You can understand that him. Shut out him, you hear me. I'm telling you, it's Kaiser Sousie. God, that's so incredible.

That guy's amazing. The last Palm and Terry Spacey's scene, which seems like the ending. The reveal. Palmitary is so condescending. I'm smarter than you. You're a cripple. You're dumb. You're blah, blah.

and the way they set that up. Incredible. And then the ending, which I got to say, when this movie's on, from flipping channels, and we're at the boat, I'm in.

Yeah. I'm not leaving from that point out. I'm just not. I don't care what's going on. If we have to be late for dinner, so be it. The ending, though, I would say that the last Chaz and Spacey's scene

leading into the ending would be my pick for most of we watch. Like when he chases him all the way onto the floor. The whole thing. Yeah. That's great. The look on Pete Possible's face. When he gets in, the leg slowly becoming not a limp, everything.

Great stuff. Yeah, you have to go with the reveal. There's a lot of seconds, but the only other ones that I would throw in there that you missed were the aborted Kobayashi hit where Edie is at the office building. But Kobayashi is like, before you do me in, you finish my business with Ed Finner and then yeah that's pretty much it for rewatchable scenes

but it's got to be the reveal what stage is the best other than me ruining the movie for Jacko every actor performance yeah so we always talked about instead of Deanne Waiters and instead of who won the movie

having a who stole the movie so if you had a who stole the movie category and you had Pollock Baldwin Del Toro Redfoot Pippaseless way Hadea

Hadea's guy Who stole the movie for you? I think Benicio gets almost out the door with the movie but he dies too early to truly steal it Yeah

But it's a testament to him That when his character dies You're not sad because you're like Oh, Fenster seemed like I such a good guy You're sad because you're like shit I really wished

he had been in the rest of the movie Like you wanted, you didn't want him to leave yet. So it's, for me, it's between, probably between Baldwin and Del Toro. For me, it's Del Toro. He just was such an obvious star after this movie. It was one of those. And it's a nothing burger part. Nothing, which is why he mumbles.

There's a bunch of good research about this, about, uh, he didn't love his part because the guy died first. He felt like he ultimately had no real impact on the movie other than to establish that Sozay was evil. so he's like, how do I stand out? Does this crazy mumble thing. None of the actors know what's going on. There's multiple points where they literally can't understand him

and that's part of the scene that they ended up keeping. And which is guy, I didn't, you know, he, there was some cultish momentum with him. Beniche heading into this movie. This is a great example, though, of the money ball aspect of the casting in this movie. Where they're getting a bunch of guys, a little older. D'Otura's got to be in his mid-30s

at this point, I think. I would say a little younger. But yeah, he'd bounced around a little bit. He'd been in some good things, but wasn't famous. He had done an Indian runner, which was like kind of the best movie he had done so far, I think.

And I think it was a little bit like an actor's actor maybe, but I don't know if he was like a hot commodity. And then he comes out and he's just like, he'll flip you. Flip you for real. What are you saying? I say, you'll flip you.

He'll what? Flip you. Flip you for real. Yeah, I'm sure. shaken. Come on. Okay. Answer my question. And you hit me in the back. Hello. He's just, he's just like, who is this guy? He's really going for it. He said he actually spent some time developing the garbled speech and, you know, put some real thought into that. Um, another what's aged the best when Redfoot flicks the cigarette into the face of Stephen Baldwin.

It was actually an accident, which is why his accident, which is why his reaction was like that. But it's a fun thing to look for when you watch it. Another wood's age the best. The poster, 25 years later, still great. It was great in the moment, though. Like in 1995, it was like, wow, great poster. And the other thing was the trailer, which, you know, more people were going to theaters back then and you'd see these trailers for 10 different movies.

And that was one I remember watching being like, because it was basically him telling the Kaiser Soze story, Spacey, as the movie trailer. and not giving too much away. And he's doing this whole monologue. And you're like, what is this movie? And then you see the poster. And then they do the, who was Kaiser Sozze? It was just masterful marketing.

By the time they were done, I wanted to see the movie. And I don't even know if it's replicable. One more, what's age the best was just, Chaz and Spacey probably have, what, 35 minutes together in this movie? And they shot it all before the rest of the movie was shot. And they only had Paul and Terry for like, week, right? Yeah.

Yeah. But it's almost like a play. It is. It's a little like few good men courtroom drama-ish the way they do it. And the two guys are just really good actors and it's really fun to watch him go. Paul and Terry was basically the hottest thing in this movie, right? Yeah. Because he was coming off of Bronxdale and people were like, this is a real, this guy's a serious talent.

Well, they said that was the key part. They're trying to get a star. We'll go into it and casting what ifs. and one of the reasons was they needed to get more funding for the movie. So when Palm and Terry signed on, he was red hot at that point. He had done Bronx Tale and one other thing that I have it coming up. But when he signed on, it was like, oh, cool. Now the Europeans are going to give us an extra a million bucks or wherever they're getting the money.

Got that Palmetry money. Another one's age the best. He's here. He's here. I'm telling you he's here. All the reactions to Kaiser when they first start bringing him up where like John Carlos Pizzino is like, no shit. Right.

And then the guy, you know, all of that stuff is great. Another what's aged the best for me is, and No Way Out has this too and some other ones where the facts of what the person looks like that you know is coming near the end of the movie and then shit's going down and you start to see the facts spitting out the thing slowly and then nobody sees it. And it's this 90s trope that doesn't exist anymore

because now you would just text the dude like, yo, verbal's Kaiser Soze. I'm like, what? You'd look at your phone. There'd be no facts. Yeah. But I do enjoy like the drama of a good facts. What else does age the best for you?

I wanted to, you know, there's a couple of things that I couldn't tell whether they age the best or the worst. Two things I wanted to discuss with you. One, I've been thinking about this for 25 years. Just in a tremendous urine stream from Kaiser Sozay in the beginning of the film. to blot out that fire.

It's like a garden hose is on. And apparently there was some thought put into it because verbal mentions later how he eats certain things and it makes his urine gelatinous. So when they had the guy pee at the beginning, they wanted to tip off that it might be verbal. So they made the urine like thicker. If I'm next to a guy at Dodger Stadium and that happens,

I'm just going to be like, are you Clark Kent? Like, what's happening? If you were next to that, guy, we'd all be drenched in urine. Like the six guys around him, the splash would be 35 miles an hour. I remember like the first time I saw it. I was like, oh, I guess that's how like, if you pee from that height, that might be. But like, I assure you that is not possible. So there's that. And then another best worst thing, but I think it's best is, um, is Redfoot's crew. The guys who show up with him at night all look like dudes who would have gotten their arms broken by Sam Elliott and

roadhouse. They all have their t-shirts tucked into their jeans and are wearing some weird fur-line jean

jean jacket and they have perms. They're like this vestige of the earlier 90s that show up in this crucial

mid-90s movie. Redfoot. We're getting him later. What's age the worst? We talked about Spacey and

Singer, not great. Did you say Baldwin had a Confederate flag hat? I missed that. Yeah. There's a moment where Baldwin is

wearing a motorcycle jacket and a Confederate flagged soldier hat. And it is like the worst outfit of the 90s. Wow. Absolutely. Amazing. Another what's age the worst, who you thought Kaiser Soze was the first time you saw this movie. So I remember when I saw this movie, I thought it was going to be Kobayashi. So the whole time, especially, it just seemed like he was in the mix. he knew it was going on. He knew all the files on these dudes. And it was like, well, obviously, it's Kaiser Soze. I mean, the best would have been as if it was Susie Amos.

If you were going to remake it now, it would have been Eady. Yeah. Oh, my God. Well, but then when it wasn't him, I was like, oh, man, it's Gabriel Byrne. Oh, all right. Good twist. And then it wasn't him either. I got to put in what stage the worst.

Palme and Terry's hair. I don't know if it's a wig. That's a wig. It's a wig. Tope, whatever's going on. But it never struck me as that phony. the movie, but now it's starting to look like he's like Bert Reynolds

and Stroker Ace. Yeah. Yeah. There's too many close-ups where you're like, whoa, that looks like a sponge. It's a rug. Yeah. Yeah. What else age the worst for you? For a very long time, and I've never been able to figure this out, is this is stupid.

But once Keaton gets arrested at Mondino's when he's having lunch and he's doing his presentation for his business, the camera just stays with Susie Amos is she speaks French for like 20 seconds. And she tries to like shrug it off. And I'm like, what's the point of this?

Like I still want to know why we just hang out with Susie Amos being like, yeah, I don't know what the big deal is. Like, who knows? Let's keep eating lunch in French with no subtitles. It's bad. It's a bad scene. I agree. Casting what ifs.

Stephen Baldwin was the second choice. Do you know the first choice was? You're going to be so excited. Who is the first choice? You love this guy. Want to go 20 questions? Was he in heat? No, he was not in heat.

Michael Bean. As McManus? Shit. I knew that would get that reaction. Turned it down, said it was a huge mistake after the fact. I think he's got a couple of those. That's rough, man. Didn't want to be famous.

But I feel like would Michael Bean have been able to be really bring, give me the keys, you cock-sucking motherfucker? it's a less funny movie. Yeah. I was bummed though. I've always loved that guy. We've talked about it before. This is a real, like,

they gave this script to everybody in town. So depending on your definition of casting, what if, it's all of Hollywood. That one's true. The Palm and Terry role was offered to Chris Walken and Bob De Niro. You might have heard of them.

I have. Walkin feels like he should have been in this movie. I'm not sure what part. Walker would have been an incredible Kobayashi. Or a good Redfoot. But they turned it down. You know who else they had? Come in and read for the part.

Al Pacino. I don't understand why Pacino had to read for this part. Like, why did he... That's why it's half-ass casting what is. Yeah. Yeah, it seems suspicious. I was trying to figure out Pacino being like, verbal comes in.

And like, dude, I don't know what his Pacino moment would have been in this. You're a cripple. You're a dumb cripple. You know Ruby Dima? He's in Attica now. Very close personal friend of mine. Singer McCoy sent the screenplay to Spacey, didn't tell him which role was written for him. He assumed it was either Chaz's role or, uh, or the,

Gabriel Byrne role, but they wrote it with Verbal Cainton Mindful. The role of Redfoot, for some reason, was offered to, as you mentioned earlier, every actor in Hollywood. Just a short list. Who knows if it's true. Walking, Tommy Lee Jones, Bridges, Charlie Sheen, Spader, Pacino, Johnny Cash. And they ended up with Peter Green. We'll talk about it.

Can you imagine Johnny Cash was just in the middle of this movie as Redfoot? It kind of would have made sense, right? I guess so. But Johnny Cash wasn't young in that. No, true. And then we mentioned Byrne was dealing with personal problems at the time,

backed out for 24 hours until the filmmakers agreed to shoot the film in L.A. where he lived and agreed to be it a divorce, right? Yeah. Agreed to make it five weeks.

Why didn't they make, instead of having it redfoot, they could have had it just be the John Voight character from Heat and it could have just connected to the Heat universe. Why weren't we consulted?

There's still time. He's still alive. Hey, Heineken would like to remind you that it's time for seasonal beers again. That's right. If you thought a cold, crisp summer, Heineken was something. Just wait until you taste the Heineken fall lineup or autumn. Are you a fall guy or autumn guy, Chris? I'm an autumn guy.

I love autumn. Yeah, I like autumn too. I don't feel like West Coast is in autumn. We're on the West Coast. It's not really autumn. So maybe it's more fall here. Is it a new product? No.

Just the same great tasting lager that's perfect for any season. I think one of the things with Heineken, there's some substance to it. So if it's like that one beer you wanted on the eighth hole, be like, you know what, I'm going to have that one Heineken or that one at dinner with like a nice rib eye. Oh, yeah. Or you can go lighter. You can even go the non-alcoholic if you want. They make all kinds of great stuff.

They mailed us some. Their original lager is made with natural ingredients with pure malt and our famous A-y yeast, which makes Heineken in all season all the time kind of beer. Definitely a certain weight. Like if you're like, hey, man, can I get your beer? What do you want? Heineken. You're like, oh, Heineken.

Yeah. You're going all in. Pick up a pack or get it delivered, whatever your style, and drink responsibly. Okay, some quickie categories. Yeah. Best that guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. Dan Hadea, not of that guy. Not giving him to him.

Okay. There's an unbelievable that guy, though. the guy in the police heist who's the driver. Yeah, man. Who's like, you know who you're fucking with? That guy from the soprano. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. He had a nice sopranos run. And I still don't know what his name is. Those two guys together, I think Madrano, Frank Madrano and Louis Lombardi, I think they had a bunch of stuff in the mid-90s to like that was like a, if I remember correctly, they were like a pair. Like they'd show up in New York Street movies kind of. Vincent Hanna, give me how he got a word. It's McMinn. it's it's it's just it's give me the fucking keys cocks like what an animal in that scene

so was there any point where Stephen Baldwin was your favorite Baldwin brother like coming out of this movie was he number one in the rankings I've always been partial to Alec I've always enjoyed Alec yeah this is and this is like really good Alec time right around here this is like malice is right around this time so it's hard Billy was always third no matter what your rankings were Billy was third but For me, like, I don't know. I really like Stephen Baldwin coming out of this movie. I'm like, I'm in.

I'm ready for more Steve. And then the wheels came off pretty fast. He left Planet Earth, yeah. I mean, he still on it. Deand Waiters, you could throw some Giancarlo Esposito in here. You little peep pasta weight. I think he's eligible. I'm giving it to Peter Green and it's Redfoot.

Such a tough guy, McManus. Do me a favor, right? Get the fuck off my dick. Nope. No. Put a leash on that puppy. It's an awful shame about Saul getting whacked. Cops are going to be looking for the guys who did it.

Sooner or later, they're going to come around asking me. You have a sweet night, ladies. I love Peter Green. If you're making a movie like this from 1992 to 2010, you need Peter Green in your movie. Well, unfortunately, Peter Green had a lot of personal problems. Did he? Which is why we didn't see him in more movies. Yeah, I actually did a movie.

Peter Green deep dive last night because I'm like, I don't get it. I love this guy. Why was the market corrected by William Fickner? What happened? Or we not want to get into it? Drugs. Ah, okay. Pretty bad.

According to the, according to the internet. Okay. Had some real issues. And that started to seem like it surfaced in the mid-late 90s. But explains, I don't know. I really like it. Like, when you saw Peter Green in a mid-90s movie, you were like, I'm not that excited.

Like, I was the opposite. I was like, this guy. Yeah, I mean, the first time I think I saw him, he's in laws of gravity. I don't know if you ever saw that movie, but that was the first thing with Edie Falco and that was a Nick Gomez movie in 92. And I was like, oh, shit.

Like, this guy is like a great, like, sort of New York character. And, yeah. It's kind of crazy that he's not in heat. I don't know what happened. Like, he couldn't have been, Henry Rollins in Heat or? Oh, he would have been

Henry Rolls. He couldn't have been like one of Pacino's crew. I don't know how that. I don't know what happened. Yeah. Recasting couch. I'm going to hurt your feelings.

I'm not a Susie Amos fan. I never got it. I just don't think she's a very good actress. Didn't think she was good and blown away. I think blown away, the ceiling of that movie is higher if anybody else was in it. I like Susie Amos. I knew you would.

I knew it would hurt your feelings. Laura Linney instead of Susie Amos for this part. I mean, it's a pretty thankless part. There's like three scenes. You really going to waste Laura Linney? Is it thankless or does she suck as an actress? No, I think of the movie is just like moving so fast that it's like she's only going to be in the movie when she's with Keaton or Kobayashi. So it's like you really want Laura Linney.

I guess Laura Linney was in smaller movies back then, though. I knew you wouldn't like that one. Have Fast Internet Research. We covered a lot of it. One thing we did not cover. Oh, two things. When Keaton is handing out the folders Kobayashi gave them, they're actually handed out in the order of the characters die.

Hmm. Which I never noticed. Oh, I didn't notice that. This one I'm ready to spend 10 minutes on. I know. This could completely throw off the pot out of whack. So they did a making-of documentary of this movie. In that documentary, it's revealed.

Stephen Baldwin and Kevin Pollock have a long-standing feud that started with the filming of the movie. Neither of them will directly come out and say what caused the animosity. Pollock did admit Baldwin was trying to stay in character and he would go around acting like a shithead and bullying other actors and stuff. Yeah, Burns said he was like he was kind of a nut job on set,

but like a fun one. Yeah. Right. Baldwin admits that he was trying to bully Pollock a little in the film. something else happened. And apparently it's the Tupac and Biggie of independent 90s film actors. Just a lot of bad blood bitterness. I'd love to know more.

I did admittedly rudimentary Google surfing to see if there was more to the story, but couldn't find anything. Okay. Who side do you want, I guess is my question. Pollock. Yeah, that's how I feel too. Yeah. Kevin Pollock, I think in any capacity, I would choose Kevin Pollock.

over Stephen Baldwin. Pollock was on, and I can't believe it's not on YouTube, and I look like once every couple years. Pollock, they had this poker show

before poker was popular. Like poker after dark or something? No, it wasn't even that. It was four stand-up comics, playing poker, and just having drinks and telling comedy stories and doing like their bits.

And they were all friends. It was like, Kevin Pollock, I can't remember who the other three guys were. And he was so fucking funny in the show. There was another guy

who crushed it. But it was one of the funniest shows I saw in the entire 90s, and then it just disappeared. But they're just telling off-color, inappropriate, just like being four comedians, just playing poker and telling stories. He was also an amazing dinner for five guests. Oh, incredible. Incredible.

And had this whole second life as just like this amazing hang. And like a podcast host, right? Yeah. Yeah. Super likable. But it was in a couple of, big movies. Fuguteman was one of the biggest movies of 1991 or whatever.

Pollock might have had like, there's, you can make an argument that aside from Spacey, Bollick has like the best 90s of this whole cast. You know, he's in, he's in quite a bit of stuff. I mean, Fuget Man, L.A. story. He's in casino. So, I mean, he had a really great, great run there. Apex Mountain.

Turkish Pist streams. Yeah, definitely. Have you ever seen a better Turkish Pish stream? Well, is he a Turk or is he Hungarian? He's Turkish. Yeah. Gabriel Byrne. No, I'm going to go Miller's Crossing for him, Apex Mountain.

Also marrying Ellen Barkin. I'm going to hurt your feelings. Never been a fan. Of Gabriel Byrne. Yeah, I think he's the same guy in every movie. But that's a cool guy. Yeah, he's just... Dark and stormy Irish guy.

It's like you need that guy in every movie. Maybe try to act. Kevin Pollock. I'm going to say yes. Okay. I'm going to say yes for Poll, because he's a few good men's in the rearview mirror. This was a huge hit. He's got, he's a regular on like the Letterman.

Who else had talk shows back then? Conan, like all those guys. They all loved him. I think, I think this was Apex Mountain. Stephen Baldwin, definitely. Yeah. What was he in threesome or three of hearts? Threesome.

Threesome. Not a great man. I have a couple more Apexman. mountains. Oh, go ahead. Del Toro, no way. No. Palm and Terry, I'm going to say yes because he had so much juice at this point that was able to get the movie

funded. So that's a yes. Yes. Yes. Spacey, no. Even though it's an unbelievable 95 for him. Peter Green, I'm going to say yes. Because this is Pulp Fiction 94, usual suspects 95. You would have thought, like, what's this guy up to next?

Yeah. Instead, it went the other way. Turkish crime lords? I can't think of any bigger ones. I think this is the point where we were at our height of awareness of Turkish possible princes of darkness. So the guy in Taken 2, I can't remember if he was Hungarian or Turkish,

but he's in the mix, I think. Yeah. I don't think he tops Kaiser, though. I have one more Apex one, but did you have any that you wanted to hit? Limping? Is this the Apex Moutes? Is this the greatest limp ever filmed?

Oh, wow. Yeah. Right? Good one. So limping and I would also, and I guess we've had this conversation earlier in the movie, but is this the best twist in movie history? Impossible to say. I would still say Chinatown just because that, you know, won every Oscar.

Right. You know, I have one more Apex Mountain. You're going to like this one. Okay. The Baldwin brothers. Okay. So let's lay it out from me. Alec is now like an A-minus list star, right?

He leads now. He's already left Tom Clancy, right? He's already left. He did run for October in 92, right? He's considered to be like, he's at least on like the Valcimer level as like a major star. It would have been conceivable for him to be in a Batman,

whatever. Yeah. Billy Baldwin. Just killing it in the early 90s. Yeah, he's coming off Sliver. Flatliners, backdraft. They were really, like, they wanted, Hollywood wanted Billy Baldwin to happen. They gave him every shot.

They tried really hard. He was the Jeff Green of 90s actors. People kept trading lottery picks for him. Just wasn't ever working. But the piece that couldn't come through was the Stephen Baldwin piece. Yeah. But then usual suspects happen. I'm going to say this was Apex Mountain for the Baldwin brothers.

As a Troika, yes. As a Troika. Yeah. Troika. Yeah. All right. I'm glad you agree. I would have been bummed if you didn't agree with.

on that because I felt pretty strongly better. Before we get to the rest of the categories, TikTok, music makes everything better, which is why it's at the core. TikTok's culture. Each time you open the app, you learn something new,

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Do you want to do Pacino doing a TikTok read? I was on TikTok. or half an hour ago. If you happen here, catch a new song or two while you're there, well, that's pretty great too. Discover more on TikTok.

All right. Pick of Nits. So Chas convinces himself that Gabriel Byrne is Kaiser Soze, that Keaton is Kaiser Soze. This is where he lands. It's his obsession. How do you explain the part

where Kaiser Sozay becomes a New York, city police officer or police detective, whatever else. This guy's a man on the force. It's not that he thinks Kaiser Soze, I think as much as he thinks everything is orchestrated by Dean Keaton and that Kaiser Sozee would just be like a ghost story that Keaton tells or that allows to propagate. So verbal tells this whole Turkish Hungarian, this whole backstory, amazing things. You have all of these people who obviously aren't from here who are involved in this stuff, people dying all over the world and idiot chas palmy and terry who doesn't realize kevin spacy is kaiser soze the whole time um it doesn't think it's suspicious at all that this one cripple uh survived the boat explosion

where literally everyone dies so he doesn't have a mark on him yeah um and he's convinced that keaton is somehow pulling all this off right this is little little uh little bad job by him not quite as bad of a job maybe as Denver not calling a timeout up to game seven with the ball with eight seconds left or just trying to play to get fouled or whatever. Another pick and knit. The way Kaiser Soze is described

as Glenn Danzig. As a tall Glenn Danzig, yeah. Kevin Spacey just not cool like that. Right. But I think that the whole point is that they're using the mythology around the character as a shield. So, like, what he actually is, who knows?

Okay. My thing is, my picking net is that if you take it face value, all the stuff that Kobayashi tells those guys in the billiards room, does some of those crimes see pretty small stakes for Kaiser Soze? Like, he's getting involved in some truck parts

and some, like, some steel. Doesn't he seem like a $91 million worth of cocaine guy? Not like, oh, yeah, a van in Buffalo. That was me. I was just dipping my fingers in the Buffalo crime scene there. Yeah, he's almost like an NBA superstar who can't resist. Also, just playing in like the record tournament. Yeah, right.

I guess it's good to see him like kind of just always, always exercising out there. But I always thought that those were like kind of low stakes crimes for Kaiser Soze. If he is in fact, do we think he is? Best quote, we mentioned a couple. A rumor's not a rumor that doesn't die. I'll find them. Why is to die? The room is not a rumor that doesn't die.

What? Good one. Well, I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Kaiser Soze. Keaton always said, I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him. Well, I believe in God. And the only thing that scares me is Kaiser Sozay. How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? Freedom!

I knew it was Kaiser Sozay. But Keith... It was Kaiser Soze, Agent Kuyen. I mean, the devil himself. How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss? Great one. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people didn't exist just like that.

It's gone. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that. So let me ask you about one quote that I've always thought about, which is when they're trying to decide whether or not they're going to pull the boat job and it's just the four of them left. And at the end of the, they're in the car and the conversation is going.

And at the end of the conversation, McManus just goes, they say it's raining in New York. There's nothing that can't be done. I just can't believe we're going to walk into certain death. News said it's raining in New York. And it's like this little line. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah. It's such an interesting line because it's not very typical for McManus to be reflective that way. And it's also like, who says it's raining in New York? Like, what are you talking about? But I've always loved it. I always love that they added that into like just a random like McManus staring out the window

and they kept that line because it's such a lean movie otherwise. So it's always stuck out to me. I also really love when Kuyang's like, first day on the job, you know what I learned, how to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. You put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever's sleeping is your man. If you're guilty, you know you're caught.

You get some rest. You let your guard down. Would you have given Kuzan? an Italian name. You think his name should have been like DeAngelo? Dave DeAngelo? I forgot one picky knit. The whole beach scene when they find

Fenster's body is a little weird. What about it? Like that they... Well, they're like, we got to bury the body. It's like, you're not going to bury a fucking body in the sand and the water. But I pulled more jobs and saw more money. I don't know why I'm doing it as hand of.

All of it is just, that's kind of a weird scene. Could this be remade as a 10-episode Netflix show? So yes and no. I don't think you could do it with because everyone would know what the twist is. But on paper, this would be the perfect 10-episode Netflix show. This is the perfect six-episode BBC-style limited series. If you were just like for a week or six weeks or however long you wanted to run it, you were like usual suspects.

And then the twist, if the twist happened in the finale of a six-episode run like Night of or Big Lowe Lies, you would be shitting yourself. Right. It would be amazing. Probably unanswerable questions other than why wasn't Kevin Pollock a bigger star. Bad job by his agent. I still feel like he could have had one, you know, like some sort of caddyshack type comedy. Yeah.

Like there's just, just wanted more for him. Chaz Palminteri's next day at the office after completely blowing it with Kaiser Soze, who just murdered 50 people and stole a bunch of shit. I wish we could see Palmitario's face when Esposito's like, you got a fax. Right. There should be a 10 minute movie after, just like his next 10 minutes

after he goes back in. Like, oh man, what happened? Yeah, Dave, can I see you in my office for a second? We're reassigned to you. You're now doing parking tickets. Did Kaiser Soze Mary again? Probably not.

No, I think he's a bachelor. Yeah. Never have any attachments, you know, that you could not drop if you feel the heat around the corner. That's the Kaiser. Sozee Way. Kaiser Soze versus Neil McCauley. I loved Kaiser Sozi so much. I did an entire chapter in my basketball book built around him. It was the greatest team, greatest teams chapter.

Yeah. In Book of Basketball. And I wanted like the Kaiser Soze team that I thought like the final level of greatness a basketball team could have as that team that's just like, I'm scorching the earth. Right. You all have to die. You're all on our path. And we're rolling over you. Marcus Smart is in the Kaiser Soze zone right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's like, if I have to dive into a guy's ankles to win the game that's happening. Any other unanswerable questions for you?

So the whole boat thing. Yeah. Still not sure I understand what's happening there, like with the Argentinians and the Turks or the Hungarians. But even if whatever is happening is happening, can Kaiser Soze not come up with a simpler way of getting this witness? He's able to do so much other stuff, but the way he's going to get the witness is to have a massive gun battle on a San Pedro pier and 25 guys are going to die. Well, my takeaway is that everyone who's, he, you know, he wants to get revenge on all these different people. And this is the most elaborate way possible to just blow all of them up at the same time, right? Yeah.

So, I don't know. That's what you do when you're a complete sociopath. Sure. be my guess. Who won the movie? So I'm going to go Macquarie. Because tying it back into what we said at the beginning where you know, you watch this movie with different eyes now than you did when you first saw it.

I think he's the person who, you know, I would necessarily say he's the author of everything that's good in the movie, but I think that the script is one of my favorite scripts. He's gone on to do so much great work. And yeah, so I'm going to go Macquarie. Who would you have said in 2000? Probably Spacey. I think I would have to. Oh, in 2015? Yeah, I don't know. I guess Spacey. I don't know.

I think for 20 years it was Spacey, but now that this movie has kind of shifted a little bit in how we think about it. I think it's McCrory because you look at all the good things that happen coming out of it. But in the moment, like 95, Spacey having seven and usual suspects right next to each other and winning the Oscar, It just felt like he was, you know, it was like his Tommy Lee Jones moment, basically, where this guy had been around a little bit, we're familiar with him. Then all of a sudden it's like, oh, this guy, now he's going to be in, he can now lead movies.

Right. Right. Which I don't feel like I felt that way until the end of that year. So who would you say now? I think you're right. I think it's McCory. Okay. Stephen Baldwin, in my heart.

I like, we forgot to make that. the point how you remember that famous story about Starship Troopers where everyone knows it's a, you know, a parody movie except for Casper Van Diem. Oh, yeah. He's playing it completely serious all the time. You think Stephen Baldwin thought he was in Dog Day afternoon here? I think he thought he was the star and I think they had made it clear to him like this is, yeah.

Yeah. You're the denier of this movie. And he carries himself with this swagger the whole way. Like he's the biggest star in the movie. and he's not even one of the five biggest stars. But I enjoy that piece as well. So there you go. Do we hit everything?

I think so. I got everything on my end. I'm glad we did this. This was an important movie. Thanks to Spotify. Thanks to Chris Ryan. We're going back to now that football's back once a week now for the rewatchables for the next two months. But we have some really good ones coming.

Some pretty big anniversary movies coming up, though. Yeah. 95. 95 was a great year. All right. Good to see you. Good to see you too.