The Rewatchables - ‘Tombstone’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan

Episode Date: December 24, 2018

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Chris Ryan join Wyatt Earp and the gang as they rewatch the 1993 Western classic ‘Tombstone’ starring Kurt Russell, Val Kilmer, and Sam Elliott, directed by George P. Cosmatos. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, today's episode of The Rewatchables is brought to you by Voodoo. It's a streaming service. You can watch on all your favorite devices. Stream over 6,000 titles for free or choose from over 150,000 titles to rent or buy in up to 4K quality from the latest Hollywood blockbusters to independent cinema. Head over to Voodoo.com slash rewatchables. That is VUDU.com slash rewatchable. Sign up. Start watching today.

Wyatt Earp just wants to retire with his brothers in Tombstone A curly bill And the bad guys have other ideas Tombstone coming up right now They say every town has a story Tombstone has a legend Who is he? It's Wyatt Earp

Better name for himself as a peace officer I heard of you I'm retired You must be Doc Holliday You retired too Not me I'm in my prime Hollywood Pictures presents

Only real law around here is the cowboys He shot your brother Now the time has come for justice Guess maybe you better swear me in And he has to live up to his reputation You got a fight coming I'll be there One last time

Justice is coming To Tombstone All right this is easily the weirdest rewatchable. We've done Tombstone. It's an incredibly flawed movie. It's wonderful. There's really weird, crazy stories about the making of it. Why it was made in the first place. It's kind of dated. It's way too long. It's still goddamn lovable. Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy. You peed on this a little when you did your top 10 westerns or whatever that podcast was, that unsanctioned rewatched. Didn't we make it number two? Yeah. But I don't know. Bill got jealous. This inspires.

We didn't pee on anything. I was like, this movie is the rounders of westerns. It's eminently rewatchable. Would have been nice for you to say that stuff on this podcast. It came out 25 years ago today. We're running this on Christmas week. 25 years ago, 1993, it came out. Really, really kind of one of the five craziest behind-the-scenes stories of a popular movie that year?

Sean, you want to do the breakdown? Sure. So there's a guy named Kevin Jarr. He was a screenwriter. and he was a very successful screenwriter in the 80s, and he was hired to make this his directorial debut, Tombstone, sort of a retelling of the very famous Earp brothers in the shootout at the OK Corral.

It's a passion project for him. And it turns out he probably wasn't very good at filmmaking because after about a week, he was fired when it became clear he didn't know what he was doing. He fell behind schedule. He was losing the studio, a lot of money. What they did is they brought in a replacement by the name of George Cosmodos.

George, of course, is best known for some of his work on the role, Rambo movies. And Cobra. And Cobra. Don't sleep on Cobra. There's a giant Cobra standee here in Bill Simmons's office where we're recording this podcast. Sly is looking at us while we record every one of these shows. And Cosmodos is known for this really like clenched fist, masculine, aggressive kind of dude

movie. He's a good action movie director. Come to find out after this movie is released and there's like kind of a modest hit that maybe George Cosmodos didn't do too much of the directing. In fact, Kurt Russell, who is sort of. of the godfather of this movie from the very beginning, more or less claimed credit for directing the entire film. And, well, he kind of steered clear of the credit for a long time.

And then it was kept coming up. Both Cosmodos and Jari to pass away. Before he was really like, this is how it went. The night before we would shoot, I would give George a shot list. And on set, I would give him like little hand gestures being like, all right, let's do this, let's do that. That's what you guys are going to do when I die. You're going to claim credit for the rewatch.

Yeah, when you die. That's what we're waiting to do. Well, there's, the other part of this is that Kevin Costner... This is really interesting. So he was originally involved in Tombstone, disagreed with Kevin Jari over the focus of the film. He believed the emphasis should have been on White Earp rather than the many characters in the script. Bowed out, left the project, teamed up with Lawrence Kasden, who was then still pretty red-hot. And they do their own competing thing.

and now this Jari comes in and he's a disaster. And so not only do they not have Kevin Koster in the movie, but then the guy who they had kind of bankrolled, they have to get rid of. And yet somehow this still ends up being the better movie. So Chris and I have talked about this quite a few times. He's a much bigger fan, I think, of the Kazden Wyatt Earp movie than I am. I do like it a lot.

I think that this is way more entertaining. But I do have a lot. I think that the Kazden Wyatt Earp is one of those really early ones where even Kossner himself has talked about this, where I think he was like, it should have been six hours and it probably should have been a miniseries, but there's no way I would have gotten the money to make it the way I wanted to make it for TV,

especially at that time. So in some ways, it was like 20 years too early. I wonder if this does become a TV series in the next few years. Seems that that would be the natural progression. I don't know that there's been a okay corral one, but yeah, this, the Wyatt Earp's story could definitely just be a TV series.

So I would say once all this stuff, out and the director got fired and the Koster thing was coming. This was probably like a plus 500 underdog to be a better movie than the Kevin Koster and White Earth. But it, the

Kostern thing came out like six, seven months later. And we've seen this happen over and over again. It's almost like whichever one comes out first has such an advantage. Nobody just wants to go see it again. The old is a fallen White House down thing, you know? Yeah, I would argue that Armageddon came out on top of its

showdown. Did that come out? after? It came out after, yeah. But, like, you know, it's... Armagedon against two. Deep Impact, yeah. Armagedon had so many more stars, though.

Yeah, it was just a more fun movie. Deep Impact is very depressing. I don't know if maybe that's a rewatchable is down the road, but Deep Impact does not end happily. I hated that movie. And Dante's Peak and Volcano, and there were so many examples of these. Well, the best one ever was two Steve Prefonte movies at the same time. Oh, yeah.

And nobody really knew why there were two of them. and it was right there in this sports movie Renaissance. And then Without Limits came out and was just a hundred times better than Prefonte with Jared Lato. I think Without Limits is probably a rewatchable candidate. I think it's one of the 10 best sports movies. Without Limits is the Robert Town one.

Billy Crudup. Yeah, yeah. Donald Sutherland is Bill Browerman. Yeah. It's just a fucking great movie. Really good movie. And that one, I think, that was another head-to-head. But this doesn't happen very often.

In this case, Costner was the biggest star in the world at that point, which we should also mention. Hanks hadn't really gone full Hanks yet. Costner was coming up dancing with wolves and could make any movie he wanted and that he bowed out of this. Yeah, there's an interesting story where Kurt Russell talked to this magazine, True West,

like this Western magazine, about how Costner essentially gave his blessing for them to move forward with it because I think Jari had written dances with wolves. So they were friendly, I guess, but he had essentially given his blessing to Tombstone, but still then blocking it. it's getting a deal with anywhere else but Buena Vista,

which was a subsidiary of Disney. It was like one of Disney's like, you know, the real movie making. That was their adult. Yeah, right. And so even throughout that, and so they had to make it with Buena Vista pretty much, but even Buena Vista then had like a bunch of things about

who they wanted to be cast in the movie or who they would allow to be cast in the movie. It was fascinating. Like Costa swinging his dick around. Yeah. Who could blame him. Yeah. Well, Russell, his story after the director died was that

I backed the director, the director got fired, so we brought in a guy to be a ghost director. They wanted me to take over the movie. I said, I'll do it. But I don't want to put my name on. I don't want to be the guy. I got him from Sly Stollone. Yeah.

His Tango and Cash, buddy. I called up Sly. I said, I need a guy. Sly did the same thing with Rambo 2 with George. And I said to George, while you're alive, George, I won't say a goddamn thing. So Sly must have directed Rambo 2 and Cobra and not put his name on it.

Big Lizard, this is George Cosmodo Jr. Apparently they can't direct anything. Sly we should say is famous for taking a lot of credit for things he didn't always do. There's a lot of stories about this. Especially in the Rocky franchise, there's a lot of controversy around what he did and didn't do with John Adveltson. Really? Yeah. And, you know, Sly is obviously a total genius and a self-made movie star and iconic.

But his memory fails him at times if you go back and kind of look at the record from the reporting during the making of these movies. The miracle of this movie is that, so it was basically, let's just say it's direct. directed by three people. So it's Jerry, Cosmodos, and Russell. Yeah. You can tell.

It definitely feels like it was directed by three people. It's basically a rough cut. It's very choppy. And then Jerry's stuff was apparently like he wasn't shooting any coverage, which means like he was doing all this master shot wide angle,

like widescreen, three, four people in a room were standing on the landscape. But then when they were like, well, you got to shoot closeups. He was like, if I start shooting closeups,

they'll take away the movie from me. So I'm just going to do this sort of, everything is all these people interacting in the frame and they were like, this is not how you make movies in 1994 or whatever it was. And that wound up being his death knell. That wound up being why he was taken off the movie. But there are a couple of scenes like when he arrives by train

in the beginning, when the Charlton Heston stuff, is all Jerry. And then I think after that is a mixture of, because Modos is kind of like real action stuff versus Kurt Russell's hybrid of the two. Yeah. I think this movie might have been a little bit more elegant if it were Kevin Jarre's movie, but...

Well, Russell says it was basically the godfather of Westerns. Right. Like, that was the tone that they were going for, and there is a version of it that is that. Right. But part of what makes it fun, I think, is it turns into this kind of great shoot-em-up quip fest, and that's why it's a re-watchable. I think if it were this beautiful godfather-esque Western movie,

we might not be doing this episode, even though it might have been a quote-unquote better film. I agree with that. Val Kilmer, as he's Krona Duh, he weighed in on the whole thing. He said, I have admiration for Kurt as he basically sacrificed lots of energy that would have gone into his role to save the film. Kurt put his money where his mouth is.

Not a lot of stars extend themselves for the cast and crew, not like he did. So I guess I never realized Kurt Russell had this kind of juice. I was like Kurt Russell. I always felt like he was not quite an A-plus lister, but was definitely you could put him on a poster there for about 20 years. Is there a case that he's the most underrated? star of his generation? I felt that way when I did the podcast with him

and was going through his IMDB, thinking about movies to time. I'll grab like six movies and there was like 20. But what's weird is like he never really had, you know, like you look at Val Kilmer. And Val Kilmer from 91 to 97, like that's like his moment, right? He has, I think it was the Doors in 97, or I'm sorry, doors in 91, Tombstone in 93,

Batman, 95, the worst Batman, but still. Heat 95. Dr. Moreau, 96, which I'll stand by until the death. It's incredible movie. The Island of Dr. Simbo. You just named Batman Forever and the Island of Dr. Murrow. Both of the Witcher.

He was terrible, but he was a huge star on both. Ghost in the Darkness with Michael Douglas. That's not bad. I like that movie. And then the saint. My vote for most underrated movie of 1997. It's okay. Like the saint.

I'm ready for it to come back. And then the wheels came off for Val. But he was always like he's the next guy. He's going to be a, a huge star. Here comes Val Comer. It's going to be Val's world soon. And it just never happened. It was like one of those basketball players. Yeah, I mean. Like what Ben Simmons is going to be like. Playing Chris in Heat or playing Doc. Nice one. Playing Doc Holiday. Like that's probably his level. He want he should be the guy who has gets 20 minutes a game, 22 minutes a game goes off, sits back down again.

I think this movie is the perfect microcosm of both of their careers. Yeah. You know, Kurt should always be the lead guy who isn't necessarily, who is charismatic, but isn't like, funny or fun. He's the necessary hero. And Val Kilmer has always been the heat check guy in every movie he's in. He's really entertaining. But the effort to make him like a big time leading man was kind of pointless because he's a character actor. So we're talking so much about what, like all the behind the scene stuff and why it's such an interesting movie to read about, even up to this day. But I think it's worth mentioning that this is very much of the time period of like these very surprising genre movies that would start out. And you'd see like the description of what it was

going to be like under siege. And you see, okay. Under Siege, it's like Stephen Segal on a boat. And then there's something about it that jumps up a level. So whether it's Tommy Lee Jones and Under Siege or whether it's the Russell Kilmer stuff going on in this movie. It just winds up being like an action movie that's way better than it has any business being. And despite all the behind the scenes stuff, like Tombstone remains so entertaining. Yeah. To point out that this was kind of a weird point of Kurt Russell's career.

So Tequila Sunrise 88. which I still can't believe they almost had Pat Riley as his co-star for that. It's one of the great one-ifs of all time. Also, it was going to be Pat Riley, and then it ended up being Kurt Russell, but they wanted Pat Riley. Not to make this like a Robert Town podcast, but we were just talking about him with Prefontane. He obviously was the co-writer of the firm, the last episode of the show that we did together, and he was the writer and director of Tequila Sunrise. Greatest screenwriter ever, maybe.

Tango and Cash 89. Backdraft 91. The wheels are coming off here now. 90. Backdraft. I like backdraft a lot. It's fine. Yeah. I think it's pretty good.

Good cast. Yeah. 92 unlawful entry. Okay. I don't think I've seen that. I don't know if I... It's a From Hell movie. Okay.

It's like the cop from hell, Ray Leota. This just starts to mess with them. Oh, yeah. Madeline Stowe, right? Yeah, yeah. During the peak Madeline Stowe era. Sure. 92.

Captain Ron. My point is, Kurt Russell was not red hot heading into Tombstone where it's like, here, can you take over this $60 million movie we were making? But somehow he did it, and he had a little renaissance after that. Here's what he does.

Every five years he's in something really cool. Like he just, like, even now, it's like hateful eight. He just, like, every time you're like, oh, Kurt Russell, you know, an 80s guy, a 90s guy, he pops up in death proof or hateful eight or backdraft or whatever it is. Enverical, vanilla

stuff. He just pops up in these movies and it's good. He's really good in miracle. So Tombstone premieres

December 24th, 19993. Costner and Kaston's movie comes out six months later and pops. Roger Ebert.

Three stars. That's right. There you go. Singled out Valcomer's portrayal as the definitive saloon cowboy of

our time. Years later felt a little agonized that he didn't fight harder for for Tombstone. By the way, Siskel thumbs downed it.

Did he? Roger Ebert, in his review of Kurt Russell's dark blue, said, every time I see Russell or Val Kilmer in a roll, I'm reminded of their tombstone, which got lost in the year-end holiday shuffle and never got the recognition it deserved. Roger Ebert's making a big comeback in the rewatchables this year. He hit a swoon, and now it's like last eight movies,

he's been lights out. He's the greatest pop movie critic in the history of the medium. I'm glad he stepped it up. I'm glad he stepped it up, He was never an underdog, and the way that you've characterized some of this podcast is unfair and weird. It's some bad takes. I love re-watching this other than just how fucking crazy it was that it was clear like they just kind of ran out of time with the movie and they just kind of set it in. Yeah.

I just really like Kilmer and Russell, and I know we'll get to that, but for some reason, there's some sort of chemistry with those guys that's really hard to find in a Western. You see it in like buddy cops And you see it in I know Road Trip movies and stuff like that But in this type of movie Doesn't really happen Yeah there's like five guys

Throwing 100 in this movie Yeah And if it had been as long as Wyatt Earp They probably would all have needed Tommy John surgery But within the context of this action movie Stephen Lang

and Powers Booth And Michael Bean And Kilmer and Russell Having them all together And Billy Zane I have the whole list here I mean, there is not an unknown person in this movie. Here's the cast.

It's basically every white actor in 1993 except for like two guys. Kurt Russell Val Kilmer, Sam Elliott, having a renaissance right now. Powers Booth. Bill Paxton. Michael Rooker. Michael Bean. Fat Billy Bob Thornton. John Tenney.

Always was going to be the next guy. Never quite happened for John Tenney. I always felt like if he had thrown the H in the first name, I think his whole career is different. John Tenney. This is a great pod from you. Thomas, Thomas Hayden Church early. Fuck yeah.

Billy Zane, John Corbett with hair. Yeah. Terry O' Quinn. And the one, the only Jason Priestley. Plus Dana Delaney. Yeah.

Dana Nicholson. Dana Willard Nicholson. Yeah. We're going to get to her. Yeah. Yeah. And the beautiful, the voluptuous, Joanna Pakula.

Pacula. Pacula? No idea. No idea. I pronounce a wise name. It's gruesome. Actually. Categorice.

Pacular. Let's, we'll take a break and then we're going to do the categories. Hey, guys. Let's talk about voodoo, a streaming service. You can watch on all your favorite devices,

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Are there any good Alpsino movies? My family likes for any movies. They ask, they're going to run a little thing on their front page where they, they curated some of my favorite movies that are in the collection. Some of my favorite rewatchables that are available through December. Yeah, let's hear them. Here's what I picked. True Romance, we did a rewatchable on that.

Great movie. Zodiac, Chris Ryan favorite. A former rewatchables as well. Yeah, one of my favorite movies. Six degrees of separation. One of my favorite mid-90s movies. Stocker Chaining, Will Smith, Donald Southern, and Classic. One of your more unique takes about how much you love that movie.

Love it. Candinsky has two sides. Eight Men Out. We just talked about that movie last week. Saturday Night Fever, one of the ten greatest movies of all time. That will be a rewatchable this year. Wow. Jesus Bill.

2019. Saturday Night Fever, it's happening. Yeah. You're not invited. I didn't like your reaction. Solo pod for you? Maybe solo. American History X.

Controversial take? Didn't say it was rewatchable. Just said it was good. The basketball scene's rewatchable. Singles? Mystic Pizza The Big Chill One of my all-time favorites

Big Chil will be rewatchable Thanks Running Scared Which Fantasy hates He's not invited Is he like running It's okay He didn't like it

Didn't appreciate Gregory Hyde That one Basic Instinct Sharon Stone Kingpin Blood Sport Double Jeopard

Which I have a lot of takes on Anytime you're ready For a double jeopardy conversation Ashley Judd Throwing like 108 And then

The last one I picked was cruising With Al Pacino Interesting. Would you like to talk about the plot of that movie? It's incredible. Go ahead. Pacino's most incredible choice.

I'm not going to talk about the plot of the movie, but it's incredible. Check out voodoo then. Yeah, check it out. And talk about the, they also have some great movies you want to rewatch with their kids, stuff like Stuart Little, Free Willy, Pink Panther 2. You don't want to watch cruising with your kids? No. Okay.

Not going to watch cruising with the kids. Head over to VUDU.com slash rewatchables to sign up and start watching today. that is VUDU.com slash rewatchables. And you can check out my carefully curated list. Cruising's an amazing movie. Whatever you say, Bill. Okay.

Directed by the great Billy Friedkin. Yeah. Check it out, Voodoo. All right. Most rewatchable scene. Here are the choices. Feel free to throw in it. Near the beginning,

Wyatt Earp confronting heavier Billy Bob Thornton. Well, I'm real scared. Damn right, she's scared I can see that in your eyes All right Go ahead Go ahead, skin it Skin that smoke wagon

And see what happens Listen, Mr. I'm getting awful tired of your skin I'm getting tired of your gas Now jerk that pistol and go to work She's completely emasculating him And then telling the bartender 25% of the house takes

That sound about right Can we get also the time Right before he walks up to Billy Bob Thornton with Billy Bob Thornton is like Christ Almighty. It's like I'm sitting here playing cards with my brother's kids, you nerve-wracking sons of bitches. He's great. Good heat check from him in this movie.

The first OK Corral shootout. It's Kurt Russell. The hell's coming with you. Tell all the other Kurds alive coming. You tell him I'm coming. And hell's coming with me, you hear? Hell's coming with me. That scene followed by a month.

of just them killing people. The Creek shootout, which was Kurt Russell's his take on what Larry Bird did in the 87 playoffs. He was just basically walking on water in the creek. And then Kilmer versus Michael Bean. The end.

One-on-one. Mono-a. Would you put anything else in there? I really like the, I'm going to turn your head into a canoe scene. So when they kill Ben Johnson and Kurt Russell comes out and pistol whips them.

and then Thomas Hayden Church and all those guys are surrounding Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer shows up. He's like, you, music lover. And he's like, I got two guns, one for each of you. I'm loving your Val Kilmer already. I like that first time Val Kilmer's character says, I'm your Huckleberry, where Bean is drunk and some of his buddies have already been killed. And he's trying to challenge Earp. And then Doc comes from behind the shadows of the saloon and delivers that family.

line for the first time. Richard slugs. Don't any of you have the guts to play for blood? I'm your hucklebearers. That's just my games. And not just because of Kilmer, who I think, obviously, I think maybe we should just spend the next hour

of the podcast talking about him, but Michael Bean's really good in this movie. Yes. He's playing against type, and he's a great villain, and he's a great Johnny Ringo, who's like this real life famous character. That's where he's like, I want your blood.

Yeah. I want your soul. Michael Bean is so good in this movie that I actually went online and researched why his career wasn't better and more important. He was in Terminator and he was in this movie and then really not a lot of aliens.

One thing that's weird about this movie too is that I think that he and Michael Rooker have basically switched parts in this movie. 99 out of 100 times I think Rooker would have played Ringo and Bean would have played McSherman I think his character's name is. Because the archetype there of like the good guy,

you're not sure if you trust him, you think you do, that like is Michael Bean. That is who he is in The Terminator. Yeah. And obviously Michael Rooker plays a fucking lunatic in every movie. Yeah. And for whatever reason, they're just not playing those two parts here,

but Bean is so good. I came across time for you, Sarah. Michael Bean. I don't know why he wasn't a bigger star. He was the lead of the biggest science fiction movie of the entire 80s, other than maybe aliens. He stopped working with James Cameron.

Well, James Cameron doesn't make that many movies. Yeah. So that's part of the problem. He should have been in every James Cameron movie. But him not being in like the abyss? He is in the abyss. Oh, you're right. He's one of the crazy Navy SEAL guys in the abyss.

So I guess he's dead and not in Terminator 2. And then that's basically it. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want to talk about this until after George Cosmodo Jr. died. But I was the one who told him to switch roles with Michael Riffin. Great note. I haven't talked about that before. That's what happened.

My favorite scene is the hell's coming with me scene and then the killing montage. Is there anything else you would add in their fantasy? Man, that's the big five. I do, I think the scene at the very beginning when they first get off the train and the six of them are looking at each other in the mirror. You know, the three brothers and the three women. So neither of you guys are going to go for the 12-minute theater sequence? No. Not my favorite part of the movie.

No. We'd cut that one. We'd have told George to cut that one. Maybe we can go through a nitpicks. I don't totally understand the Billy Zane, Dana Delaney characters. Okay. Yeah, it's coming up. I, from a rewatchable standpoint, if you're flipping channels,

and Kurt Russell is after Bill Paxton dies, and Kurt Russell's on his horse pretending to leave, and he sees Powers Booth, if I stumble, I'm just watching from that point out. It's like, he's actually going to not leave, and he's going to kill everybody. Yeah. And then this is going to end in the creek, and he's going to kill you, and I'm watching all of this. It's great. That's my favorite part. I don't know if you have a more rewatchable.

My favorite is Billy Bob. I love that part, too. And Billy Bob reportedly... Improvised all of his dialogue. Reportedly. Who knows with him? Hard to say. Kurt Russell told us that that's what he did. He waited until George Cosmoded's done. I'm flipping this. What's age the worst?

And then we'll do what's age the best. What's age the worst? 135 minutes. Yep. Yeah. Probably would have chopped out about... 20. Don't know if we needed the theater scene. Maybe we'd have just gotten rid of that one.

Or toned it down. The theater scene could have been like 45 seconds long. That's the thing is they do one play. We get it. They do another play. They do two plays that night, right? Well, he does just a reading from Henry V. Right.

And then he says, don't they do Faustus too? They do. Yeah. I think it accomplishes a couple of things that you need. It shows you why Jason Priestley is loyal to these guys and why his character who probably shouldn't be friends with them is. shows the constitution of the town, kind of who's in charge, which I think is effective. It shows you that Wyatt Earp is like officially out of the game.

You know, like, I think the mayor comes over right at the beginning of that scene, and he's like, I'd like you to meet Mayor Clement is Wyatt. Mr. Earp, your reputation precedes you. I was wondering if a matter. Not a prayer. Nice meeting you. Yeah, right. But yeah, 12 minutes is probably unnecessary. You won me over with it, established Priestley's character.

It does. I take it back. But what is what happened? like Priestley asks Billy Zane to sit down with him. I mean this, what happens before that, where Priestley is sitting next to Powers booth. Yeah. I think Jason Prisley is just a stand.

You know, he's just, he's just a big fan. I would say, where are you guys' heads at with the movie opening up with the Cowboys executing all those people at the wedding? I liked it. Like, did you... I'm off for a wedding executions to set the tone for how bad somebody is.

This movie's after the three amigos, right? Right? Yeah. So it's kind of the same. Yeah. Same kind of scene. Maybe that's why Kevin Jari got fired. Maybe.

Because he was plagiarizing three in the years. There are three different parts in this movie where the kind of violence and the killing is really intense and a little bit unstructured, especially at the end where it's kind of unclear like what they're even trying to accomplish. They're just murdering people. I like it. That's the George Cosbados effect, though, right? It basically turns into cobra for five minutes.

It's exactly right. It's totally a Rambo thing where it's like, why are you just killing everybody? But I don't know. That opening sequence is fine. It kind of sets the tone that this is going to be a really gnarly, bare-knuckled, masculine movie. The Wood's Age the Worst.

I had the theater. It's just too long. There's one other thing, too. I had one more after that. This movie is like weirdly woke about the woman's place in the Old West. Have you noticed that? Like, Dana Delaney is this, like,

fiercely independent woman. Yeah. Which like... Well, that is actually... I think that is actually the Wyatt Earp story because it's also in Wyatt Earp. So I think that

he was with that woman, Maddie, and then he falls in love with the actress, right? Josephine. Yeah, it's true, but I'm not so sure that she was quite as independent as she's portrayed here.

Right. There's some doubt cast on that. I thought that their picnic scenes sucked. You know, like, it's just... It's bad. To be completely frank, like, I just don't come

to tombstone for picnics, you know? Like, I'm here to watch you guys ride across the desert and savagely murder each other. That was a weird kind of late 80s, early 90s movie thing where they were just like, we've got to establish their romantic connection. It's like, no, you don't.

We get it. They like each other. I don't need to go on a picnic with them. I don't want to be in their date. Thanks anyway. Bill Paxton's death scene is really bad. It really feels dated when you watch. He's like, so.

Yeah, slow motion. There's a bunch of like really long deaths in this movie. We would do that one differently in 2018, I feel like. What's age the best? Well, the mustaches. It's just magnificent. They were all real. About an hour and a half in, I'm watching this going,

why don't we all have mustaches now and hats? What happened? She wear hats and mustaches. Craig should have one right now, or producer Craig. He should have a fucking hat and a mustache. I can't grow one. Well, obviously they all had to grow one back then somehow, right?

Well, we know that Kerr Russell can grow incredible facial hair. So that's not shocking. Would you, why don't you, for the fans for Christmas? Grow a tombstone mustache? Tombstone goatee take a picture and throw it out there for the kids today.

Is it a goate or just a mustache? Well, Powers Booth and Val Kilmer have goatees, right? No, they have the sole patch with a mustache. Fine. I'm in. If I grow a mustache,

I look like a dirtbag cop from 1974. Even better. It's the times when I most feel friends with you. Yeah, I can't do it. Because it's so cool. It's like being friends with Gene Hackman.

Wow. I'll take it. What else does age the best? crazy loaded cast we talked about. I just love Dana Delaney. I thought she was one of my good career, but it felt like it could have been better. Were you a China Beach fan?

Oh, hell yeah. She was kind of the Carlo Gugino of her era where it's like, why aren't you a bigger star? You should be like one of the five big, why is Demi Moore a much bigger star than you? I never understood it. What about Carla Gugino? Same thing.

Carla Gugino. Didn't you say Carlo, though? Carla Gugino? Carlo Gugino is so good in those Fellini movies. Carlo Gugino is the guy who has James Kahn shot at the Tollberg. How do you pronounce her name? Carla. Carla Gugino.

Yeah. But you said Carlo. No, I said Carl. I meant Carla. I know. I know, it's Carla. I also remember you walking her right by my effing office and not knocking. It's getting awkward.

The worst thing Chris Ryan's ever done to me. I think Dan and Delaney had a bigger career than Carla Gugino, who we all love. But I think she should have been like an A-List star. And this was the only time. somebody said in a movie, like, this is a big-ass movie, and you are the lead female. Apparently you haven't seen exit to Eden.

Well, that was where it went wrong. She's still my second favorite actress in this movie, though. Did you guys watch China Beach? Yeah. My mom was a big China Beach fan, so it was on a lot. What is it? I don't know why it's not streaming it,

but the last episode. You know what? So much of that 80 stuff is not. It's like Murphy Brown isn't streaming, Northern Exposure isn't screaming. I don't think they're at the music rights, but in the last episode, the last episode of China Beach

is one of the best last episodes I've ever seen but they're older. It goes forward and they go to the Vietnam Memorial to see the names of the people that basically were on the show that died during the show and they start playing Michael McDonald's you can let go now

and it's like it was all right it's like the piano comes in and they're pointing on the wall and crying it's like the most emotional two minutes of any time show it's fucking unbelievable

I didn't think we were going to go to China Beach in this episode. He's like, you can let go out. Everybody's sobbing. It's fucking great. That was such a good show. That's good. Oh, man. You really just spoiled the whole show.

Yeah, sorry. That's 30 years. I thought the 1880s Wild Wild West age really well. Yeah, they do a really good job with the world building in this. I'm in on the 1880s Wild Wild West. I mean, they had liquor brothels gambling. Mm-hmm. You can kind of see the...

You wear hats. had mustaches. You can see the Godfather thing that Russell's talking about when he moves in to Tombstone and immediately takes over the Farrow game at the Oriental. And it's like, you can tell he's kind of using his reputation to muscle in on some stuff. Like he wins the deeds for the minds off that guy. And he's like, everything about it is about his making as much money as possible because he feels like they've been kind of screwed over in their lives because they have nothing to show for all this fame that they have. And I kind of thought that that was probably somewhere in there as a really interesting movie about this guy is supposed to stand for law and order, essentially

screwing people out of stuff. I tend to think of this movie as the bridge from John Ford Westerns to Deadwood, where it's like the Old West was actually really gnarly and violent and vulgar. And this movie is really one of the first westerns that was ever full of people just being like, fuck you, no fuck you, and then shooting somebody in the head. Yeah. And obviously that's eventually what the Bill Coxon scene. Like there's so much blood.

They never did that in Westman. The Sam Elliott thing, they're like, your not able to use your arm anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That was different. That was very intense. Yeah.

The closing credits age the best for me. I don't know if you've ever watched. I did last night. It's just four solid minutes of them walking with closed up for no reason. It's like a vanity fair photo shoot almost. They're all their outfits and they're just walking and it's like one and it's the other guy. It's like both unintentionally funny but kind of cool. You once shot one of those segments

You and Jalen for countdown. Oh yeah. Yeah. Enjoyed it. And then the other one for What's Age the Best for Ream. I just enjoy that era of Valcomer. Yeah, he's great. That all the way through heat.

I love him in heat. Obviously, Chris and I have talked about heat forever. But just the potential of them. It's like watching the old Fab Five games with like C-W. You let me know when you want to go deep on Kilmer. I'm ready right now. It's like watching the C-Web at Michigan or Early Golden State. just like, I know it didn't totally work out,

but God, if you could just bottle this right here, there's really something special. He really should have been a bigger star. I don't want to spoil any casting what ifs, but we can talk about Kilmer himself, which is I think that the reason this movie is really special is because you can tell almost on camera, you can watch on film,

all these guys recognize what's going on with Kilmer. Like, he's so good that they change their performances to elevate his. Because nobody is really behaving quite in the same way. Nobody is as, like, lush and romantic. everybody's like, all verge? And what do you think,

Morgan? And Val Kilmer is just like free jazz happening. And he's just, you know, so poetic and he's like, you know, coughing and sweating and feverish. He's like green.

He's like a, he's like a Byron Shelley kind of like figure in this movie. And they all kind of recognize it and make themselves more Amish. Make themselves like more buttoned down. I think it's good character too because the herbs are from Kansas. And Doc is from Georgia. And there's a certain kind of.

person that is from Georgia and there's a certain kind of person that is from Kansas. And Amanda Dobbins are colleagues from Georgia. She is poetic. You know, she sweats a lot. And, you know, that's like, it makes sense that a Southern gentleman who's great at cards and great with guns and is slick and smooth and great with women would be this way. And if you give him tuberculosis, then he starts to look like that. But it kind of, you're right, though, that, like, the actors are really leaning into the fact they have to be more austere, more sort of like solid American an oak while he can be this kind of tree blown in the wind. Yeah.

And like, you know, the guy, especially Kurt Russell, is like trying to find a wife that will get him, but will also like stoke the kind of, you know, stoke his soul and make him feel like energetic. He wants to go get room service all over the world and keep moving on. And it's truly like the real partner for him is holiday. Like that's the one where he's like, well, how the hell are you is his first line to him? And you can tell that that's the love story at the center of the movie is the two.

of them. It's kind of an amazing portrayal of friendship in that sense. Well, so we did the 93 Oscars. We talked about this during the firm. And I ripped through the best supporting actor, which Tommy Lee Jones won for the fugitive, DiCaprio, what's eating Gilbert Grape, Ray Fine, Schindler, Liss, John Malkovich in the Line of Fire, and Pete Postal Wait for in the name of fire of the father. It's kind of amazing that Kilmer didn't get nominated? It's a stacked category. I get it, but man.

I think that Malikovic is really good at it in the line of fire. I'm not sure that that is as memorable a performance as Kilmer. It goes back to our whole quest to have them wait five years to do the Oscars, which I'll never do. But I think if five years passes, Kilmer's nominated. And this movie is, to your point, Bill, like a perfect example of a movie that was like a pretty modest hit. It did well. didn't do amazingly well.

I'm not even positive I saw it in the theater. I definitely didn't. I saw it on cable. I definitely did. And this was during a time when I saw everything in the theater, but it came out over the holidays

and I just don't think I saw it. I mean, I was like the target audience because it was those movies like the westerns. Well, it's also Christmas break. So the only thing you had to do, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So the only thing I had to do was go to the movies. But it really took on a new life. I must have watched this in my friend's basement like 25 times growing up.

You know, it was just on TV all the time. And so, so, so rewatchable. Another what's aged the best, tuberculosis vaccine? Because you're watching this. She's like, wow, what fucking sucked to have tuberculosis? Also, like, he's turned green and you cough blood? It's weird that everybody is like, you longer? Like, it's like such like a, everybody is like insulting him because he has tuberculosis.

Yeah. Like, oh, you dirty, coughing, sweaty lunger. Also, maybe don't smoke cigarettes with tuberculosis. Oh, come on. Like, they didn't know. He was drinking whiskey like 24 hours a day. Well, there is that famous scene where the doctor comes and is like, no more whiskey, no more cigarettes.

And I think no more fucking this woman. And no more gambling. Yeah. And no more gambling. Yeah. Last one's age the best. Joanna, Peculia. Pacula.

It's pronounced Gino. I'm not, uh, I'm not sure why she wasn't a bigger star. No idea. What else does she do besides this? Do you know? I'm, can you do one more Val Kilmer soliloquy and I'll look that up? She, she, she, she was. was around for a while and it was always one of those

Why aren't you a bigger star and then just wasn't around? Why, I am rolling. Yeah, he said, what was his story? I have not even begun to defile myself. What was his story for that accent? I have no idea. Did you have one? Yeah, I think I have that in my notes somewhere.

All right, so she... He's like if Yosemite Sam was trying to read Oscar Wilde. It was really, like, ridiculous over the top, but also perfect. Yeah. She just never made it. She was in Mark for Death with Stephen Seagal. Tombstone. Pretty good one, two punch.

My giant. My giant. Yeah. Just never made it. This was Tombstone. What's her legacy? We're going to keep, when are we going to stop fucking around and talk about Dana Wheeler, Nicholson? We're getting there.

Casting what ifs. What do you think Sage is the worst, by the way, the hundred, thirty-five minutes? It's too long. It's way too long. And what's age the best? Billy Botthwart. Oh, it's age the best. I can kill her, right?

I go with mustache for that one. Casting what ifs, costume was supposed to be white erp. Kurt Russell said the film was nearly cast with Richard Gear

as Wyatt Earp and William DeFoe as Doc Holliday. And this was blowback from last temptation? That might be straight to video. Yeah, because it was Buena Vista.

Yeah, because of Buena Vista, Bonavis was like, we're not casting the guy who was in Last Tentation of Christ five years earlier. Buenavis said, no, you're not casting him. Willem DeFoe was a great actor.

Thank God he was not Doc Holiday. I have another thank God for you. Mickey Roark was almost cast as Johnny Ringo and turned it down. As good as Bean is. No, stop it. There's a good. Beans great in this. Come on.

This would have been a cool Mickey Rourke role. I think that might have been one too many cooks in the kitchen. If you've got Cosmodos coming in and there's all this turmoil, I just feel like Rourke is like, that's when Rourke's like, I'm actually directing this movie. Yeah, I think he goes full ISO ball. It's like Carmelo and OKC. He's like clear out of Mickey Rourke. The Dion Waiter's a word.

I have these three candidates, but feel free to throw it somebody else in. Stephen Lang, Michael Bean. I feel like he's not in it quite enough, so he qualifies. And then obviously Billy Bob. Yeah, it's a tough, tough core call. So I think that Billy Bob gets more out of his time on screen. But Stephen Lang, who is reportedly actually hammered for the entire, like the entire movie, is so out of control in this movie

and actually is just like every time you see him you're like what a piece of shit I can't wait until this guy dies. Put a bullet in that guy's head. He's also my vote and he's also only in like five or six scenes so he qualifies.

God, this movie was really good at identifying guys who are going to be really famous too. You know, like, not that Stephen Lang's really famous but I mean he's respected famous. He's basically the star of Avatar. Yeah.

And I don't know. If Bean is in the category, it's Michael Bean. Because he was re-watching it again, I was like, holy shit, this is a great villain. And I don't, maybe being... When him and Val Kilmer

just talk Latin to each other for 30 seconds? That whole scene is so great. And Vino Veritas. Ajikurajis. Creda, juda, so teller, non ego.

Juventus, Stoltor. Come on, boys. We don't want to need trouble in here, not in any language. Us Latin, doll. Evidently, Mr. Ringo's an educated man. He plays one hand, wins 500 bucks.

Yeah. And then, yeah. I don't think Bean qualifies. He's in that movie. I think it's Stephen Lang. Okay. Half-ass international research. All the mustaches of the movie were real.

Val Kilmer practiced for a long time on his crick draw speed and gave his character a southern aristocrat accent. So there you go. I'll be damned really were the final words of Doc Holiday. This is funny. Historians have debated on why he said that to this day. They don't know why he said it. Well, I like the theory that he, as a gunman, always thought of himself as somebody who would die with his boots on.

Not just from tuberculosis. And when he looks at his feet and doesn't have his boots on, he says, I'll be damned. I'm dying without my boots on. Like, that was the thought that he was having. We'll never know. Johnny Ringo in real life did not die at the hands of Doc Holliday. Oh. Suicide.

Why? I don't know. Oh. Sad. I don't know. He started dating Lady Gaga and then her career took off. George. Craig liked that guy.

Finally cracked a smile. Cosmodos did claim that Stephen Lang was drunk for most of the filming. Here's the translation of what Doc and Johnny Ringo said to each other in Latin. You ready for this? Doc Holliday, in wine there is truth. Johnny Ringo, do what you do. Doc Holliday. Let Apelia the Jew believe, not I.

Johnny Ringo, youth is the teacher of fools. Doc Holliday, rest in peace. It's more fun in Latin, I think. Terrible conversation. Tonight's Ringer holiday party, I shall be saying to Chris Ryan in Vino Veritas. Apex Mountain. Really interesting Kurt Russell discussion is about to happen right now. I think it's the thing.

That's my favorite Kurt Russell. because he's not yet at... It's not your favorite. It's what was the highest best point of his career. Well, if you look at that time, the thing is 82. And then Big Troubles after that? He's just done Escape from New York, and he's got Silkwood and Swing Shift coming. And then Big Trouble and Little China comes after that.

I mean, that's pretty good. I vote no because Escape from New York was a cult movie that only later became a really big thing. Right, but the thing was a hit. And now, if we look back on his career, was an Apex Mountain at the time or upon reflection? If you didn't read about Toonstone, it makes it basically sound like

Kurt Russell was able to finance this movie. Right. And that is coming off of backdraft, which was a relatively big hit and he was the star of. I don't feel like it was, this to me, is more like LeBron, the 2018 finals for Kurt Russell getting this finance. I'm going controversial,

tango and cash. It's not that controversial considering who you are. It's the end of the 80s. He's established himself as an A-List star. He just did Tequila Sunrise, which did really well and was well-liked and had Michelle Fifer in it. Goes does a movie with Stallone. It's a hit.

People like it. And it's an absolutely ridiculous movie that really him and Sly were the only two that would have pulled that off. And by the end of that movie, you're like, Carr Russell is an A-plus list star. It's not a huge hit. I don't feel like you thought that way the whole decade. For the record. Tango and Cash. What?

It's kind of a disappointment. Tango and Cash cost $55 million to make and it made $66 million. And also $55 million in 1988 is like $160 million. You be careful, Sean. Okay. It's also not that good. No, but I'm talking about Kurt Russell's career. By the time he made that movie, now that opens up backdraft, that opens up his ability to finance tombstone.

Sure. I get it. I don't know. What's weird is, I think the actual answer is there was no apex. It's kind of what's cool about his career. Yeah. He's like kind of like more. That one moment?

A range of rolling hills. I don't think he ever got nominated for an Oscar? Kurt Russell? I don't think so. He was never in like... Oh, maybe Miracle he got nominated, I think. He did not. You sure?

I'm pretty positive. He was nominated for Best Supporting Actor for Silkwood, which is why it's his Apex Mountain around the thing. Because 82-83 is when he was at his best. Escape from New York. It's starting to become a cult movie. The Thing, Silkwood, he's in a movie, Marist Street.

Wow, there's a 180 from you. You really backed off tango. I forgot he got nominated for an Oscar. That's fair. He also could have had a different career. It's interesting that he leaned into the masculine hero stuff. You know, he could have been like a very, like a serious theatrical dramatic actor. It really is for him, him and Harrison Ford are cut from the same cloth.

They have like a certain smarts to them, but they really are throwbacks to a kind of Paul Newman charisma. And they, it's interesting that Ford gets those two franchises. and it basically sets him up for the rest of his career. And Russell is always kind of three good ones, three bad ones. Three good ones, three bad ones. There's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to say it. He's just a good-looking dude, man. You see him in Tombstone.

It's like that guy's a guy who should be in a poster and be the leading man in a movie. And he's at his most handsome. Apex Mountain, Val Kilmer. I'm going to say no. I would imagine that Top Gun is his Apex Mountain, Because after that, he does, when does he do top secret right after that or right before that? I don't feel, remember, like, part of this is when you have the most career sway.

Yeah, I think coming out of Top Gun, there are people who are like, this guy is probably neck and neck with Cruz, right? Nah, that was a Cruz movie. I'm going Heat. He's in Heat. He's De Niro's Wingman. That's the biggest movie of, like, the mid-90s, basically, when it comes out. It's like, Pacino versus De Nero, Michael Man. This is a fucking thing.

Al Comer's like right there. It's like, I'm the fucking next wave. I'm here. Well, what was he in before Batman? And then he gets Batman from Heat. Right before Batman is true romance when he's Elvis. He's barely in that. Also, Kurt Russell famously also played Elvis.

And then Tombstone before that. But before that, it's the Real McCoy. And then before that is Thunderheart. And then the doors, you could make the case that it's 1987 right after Top Gun because he's Willow. That's what I'm saying. Mad Marigan. And that, speaking of Harrison Ford, was probably,

hopefully going to be his Han Solo and it didn't work out. Yeah. I mean, for me, my personal apex with him is the doors because I thought he was out of control in that movie. Dude, if you want to do doors rewatchfuls. I fucking love the doors. We have to do JFK before the doors. There's no way we're doing the doors as the Oliver Stone.

There's like 11 movies in my life that I've seen twice in the theater. And the doors was one of them. Yeah, I was like, I'm going back. That's a good quiz is to what were the 11 movies? The doors was one of them for me. I went and I'm like, I'm gone back. Rocky 4. You saw Rocky 4 twice?

I'm guessing yours. No. You saw Rocky 4 once, but you saw The Doors twice? That's super weird. The doors was great. Second one was on a date. Okay. I see two movies, like I see a movie twice

like six times a year. That's like incredibly common. I saw Phantom Thread twice in the movies. Hell yeah. Priestley. You should make this argument yourself because no one knows the ins and outs of Priestley more than you do. Here's the answer.

Thousand percent apex mountain for Priestley. Nano 2-1-0 is never bigger, and he's in a movie with Kurt Russell and Valcomer and has like a couple heat check scenes. This is it. This is the steepest mountain of all time. If you look at his career, because it's a very narrow period in which he is at a height, and his height is very high, but it is precipitous in its drop on either side. Well, be careful.

Nantino is a big show. Sure, for about three and a half years. Yeah. No, but I do think this is a good example of Apex Mountain. This literally was his Apex Mountain. Yes, and it was probably like the specific point where it's like this is my Apex. The first dabbling of maybe I'm going to go do movies now. Yeah.

Yeah, he dabbled all right. Dana Delaney, I feel like it's got to be when she was on China Beach, which I think was still was gone at this point. That seems reasonable. I don't really have any other Apex Mountains other than George Cosmodos, ghost director. I think we covered him. I can't think of another person in here. Maybe that should be a ringer video where you're really directing a video

but we're pretending somebody else is doing it. Can we talk a little bit about the late Bill Paxton? Sure. I don't think that this is a Mount Rushmore Paxton performance. It's that. I think aliens,

near dark, one false move. Weird science. Weird science. Lions, True Lies, Twister, these are all much better Bill Paxton performances. But at this time, is this like the sweetest spot for him when he's kind of figuring out how to be Bill Paxton? Yeah, because I think that the thing with aliens that's interesting is that Sigourney Weaver is obviously the star and the hero of that movie. But Paxton and Bean are supposed to like would in any other world be the stars of aliens?

like they would make the guy soldiers the stars. So it's very interesting to see their trajectory after that. And Paxton, I think they tried to make him a star a couple of times. And it actually, like, when he has carried a movie, like one false movie is incredible. Although you can make the argument that that's also Billy Bob's movie. They split the time between him. I don't feel like until Twister was Hollywood's concerted effort to be like, Bill Paxton is a major star and he's on the cover in Entertainment Weekly.

And this is your buy-in this. Because I remember when it was happening. part of the Twister marketing was Bill Paxton and Helen Hunt and Philip Seymour Hoffman are going to be stars and instead of going to get actual stars we got these people because they're going to be stars.

And that was like how they marketed it. He'd been around for a long time at that point. They never kind of... Well, that was also coming out of the 80s where it was like to make a movie you have to have a movie star and then they started realizing to make a movie you have to have a tornado

or a meteor or something, like an alien invasion. The one that changed it was speed. Yeah. When Keanu was guy in speed, they all kind of looked at each other and said, oh, okay. Yeah. How do we do that again?

Lo and behold, they did discover one of the biggest movie stars of the next 20 years and Sandra Bullock in that movie, so that helped. Right. But she'd been around. Yeah. She'd been in a couple things. But I do think that changed the mindset. I do love Paxton.

I think he's one of the all-time great number two or three guys in a movie. Oh, he's incredible. All he's doing in this movie, he's set in picks. He made a couple corner threes. Oh, he literally is just like, you're the one, Wyatt. Yeah. That's just like, yeah. Got some, did some,

he spits a lot in this movie. He did a good handshake line. Yeah. At the beginning of the movie, he's at the score's table doing a handshake with each guy as they come in. And there's that part where, where Holiday,

like, Wyatt's telling him about his new wife and Doc's like, Pure is the driven snow. And Bill Pax is like, Hey! Classic. The Joey Pants Award

given out to the, hey, it's that person for the movie. There's a lot of them in this movie. I still don't feel like most people know who Stephen Lang is or could recognize him. Am I off on that? Well, he doesn't look. If you saw him now, you'd be like, that's the guy from Avatar, because that's how he usually looks.

And this movie, he's got the beard. He's wearing the hat. He looks like a real, like a homeless guy, really. So he's very unrecognizable. His face is covered in mud. Yeah. But I think Dana Will or Nicholson is the answer. She's, that girl from Fletch, can I borrow your towel?

My car just said of Water Buffalo. She has. Do you guys want to do you? just like roll through this and do a flex I would watchables right now. I fucking love Fletch. I think everybody between the age of like, I would say 30 to 50 it's all ball bearings these days.

They have a massive crush on her. She's awesome in that movie. She might be like platonic ideal of a woman. And it was weird because if you come out of the movie you're like she's going to be a massive star and I think my theory is that Elizabeth Shoe Marker corrected her. Oh, that's legit. Yeah, I like that

a lot. Same appeal. Interesting. Could have been there for her. I don't know. No? I still hold a candle for her. She's amazing. In Fletch, she is, like, incredible in Fletch.

Underrated Dana Wheeler-Nicholson performance is Bye-Bi Love, where she's like kind of sort of the love interest. She's one of the moms. You remember this? Oh, with Paul Riser? Yeah. She also had, I want to say she was on like Sex in the City or one of those. She was on a ton of TV. She was on like X-Files.

And then she was somebody's mom? Was she in Friday night? She was. She's like, Mara's mom. Great career. And she was on Nashville recently. Yeah. She's my Joey Pants winner because at the end,

they just casually tell us she died of a drug overdose. Yeah, that's the thing. It's such a bad beat for her because, like, everybody is just like bawling out in this movie and she's got to be on laudanum the entire time. And like, they have that running thing where he's just like, is that the same bottle you've been working on?

It's like quite obviously not the same bottle. Like every time she hits it, she takes like a giant slug of cough syrup. But, and then like there's that part where he comes back from hanging out with Dana Delaney and he tries to basically make her into Dana Delaney and she's just like, what the fuck are you talking about? And she's crying because she's so high.

I love it. I actually thought she was miscast. Not the most subtle performance I've ever seen. The first shot of her when she's basically just like... Don't you dare talk about Gail Stanwyck that way. She's drooling mucus and crying because she needs her hit of laudanum so bad. It's like, all right, we get it. That leads us to the Saul Rubeneck.

They knew a word, which is also Blunt by Dana Wheeler Nicholson. No, it's not. Yeah, it is. In this fucking movie with Powers Booth, you're going to tell me that Dana Wheeler Nicholson is the fucking Saul Rubenek winner? Yes.

No fucking way. Sean, you're the timebreaker. Powers Booth. It's Dana Wheeler Nicholson. It is definitely not Dana Wheeler Nicholson. I thought Powers Booth was good at this movie. It's a lot of powers. It's probably more Powers Booth than we needed, is my feeling.

Oh, yeah. He should have, eight minutes should have been in the cutter room floor. Just chilled up to all of it. The thing is. Daniel church is closer to the to the Saul Rubinick Award. Wheeler Nicholson when she's in bed after he gets back from the picnic. Yes. How are you feeling, Maddie?

I don't know. I'm all right. That is not good, Chris. She's so high. She's like laughing at her misery. But Chris, I love Gail Stanwyx. She's not good in this movie. Dude, you guys are both fucking wrong.

And the fact that you're saying Dana Wheeler Nicholson is overacting. in Tombstone, in a movie where Powers Booth wears a sash and sachets around town being like on opium shooting guys in the chest, Michael Bean is in this movie. I have one more candidate if you want another candidate. Sure. I think Billy Zane overacts in every movie, and I just don't think he's good.

In fairness to him, that is literally the point of his character. Well, unfortunately, he played that exact same character in his next nine movies. But he's an actor in this movie. He's a serial in a boat, and he's still that guy. He's this very melodramatic actor. He's a bad actor. There's also... You could actually make an argument in a different kind of way

that Sam Elliott is overdoing the Western thing. No, come on. Come on. It's Gail Stanwyck. She blew it. Is it possible that it's Robert Mitchum as the completely unnecessary narrator? It's a bad narrator. Why do we need that narrator?

That was a pick of nits for me. Why I have, no, it's just, that's it. Why do we need a narrator? It's almost like this is the cliche of how we tell a Western. Yes. Let's have a narrator and he'll do this. Yeah. They came in.

Let's pick Nitz. That's, I got that one. Maddie dying of a drug overdose. I don't know why that got thrown in. Couldn't they were giving her a happy ending. My base to pick. Or they could just killed her in the middle of the movie, like the way that they deliver. Yeah.

Make the death pay off or they intentionally get her to overdose. Isn't it basically to forgive him for running off with Dana the lady? it's like, well, he was a widower anyway. It is, but they invest so much time in the drug addiction that they could have just had her die in a scene as opposed to just yes, ending it. Her character does not need to be in the movie is really the problem with that.

And the payoff of it is the narrative telling us... You guys think this is a weird take by me. It's a weird take by both of you guys. She doesn't need it. And William Nicholson is alive. So if you want to get at her, you should just hit up her agent. She's on Twitter.

DM her. I'm just defending her acting and her role. And it's just so weird that you guys are like, I watch Tombstone and the thing that bothers me most is the performance of this woman who's in three scenes when these other guys are hamming it up like Boar's head.

Can I defend Gail Stanwick? The part is poorly... Look at him. I'm defending Gail Stainwick. The part is poorly written. No, I disagree. What? The thing is, the Saul Ruvannick Award is not a demerit. It's an award. He's like, she blew it.

Well, I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that she's overdoing it. When she's doing, you stab me in the heart when she's like, I'm on all the laudanum right now and I can't talk to my man. It's just bad. But it's a bad part and it has no payoff because the narrator just tells us it then she died. We go on no emotional journey with Gail Stanwyth in this world. This is a lot of time spent talking about this character,

but I did read that the woman who, you know, Josephine, who Yider ends up with in real life, spent the rest of their life together, making an effort to bury that part of Wyatt's life. So kind of like just being like, don't ever think about Maddie? Trying to erase her from history. Whenever they would tell the story of Wyatt Earp,

she inserted herself into the history when Gail Sandwick was there. My other nitpick, other than the ones we already mentioned, it's really upsetting to me that they didn't have like an awesome poker scene in this movie. It was all there. They had the Oriental.

Well, they had a pretty good one where he stabs the guy in the beginning. I'm saying like, Wyatt Earp versus Powers Booth. If you're, if you even choice, like, hey, choice A, 12 minute theater scene.

Choice B. White Earp. Powers Booth and Kilmer and they're all playing poker and it's starting to get heated. She felt like a wasted opportunity. I want to watch 1880s poker. Should you bring Farrow back?

Well, they still play that at casinos? They don't really play Pharaoh anymore. That's really the game that the Earps come to make money with. Yeah. And Pharaoh is this. That's like Blackjack kind of, right?

It's a weird French game that is really out of fashion now. And they don't explain it. You know, for a movie that kind of over explains a lot of stuff, they just accept as common cause that everybody knows what Farrow is, but nobody plays that anymore. I don't play games of chance like that. I'm not going to like, that's like for suckers. But he does play poker.

Yeah, he does play poker. That plays a lot of poker. Maybe poker's natural game. Perhaps a spelling bee. That's a great line in the movie. Any other nitpicks? Any more nitpicks. There's a bunch of weird edits.

where there's like, it's like nighttime twice and it's like unclear whether it's the same day or not, but they're not worth like really like... I think George Cosmodos is really just trying to get this thing out. The only nitpick I have is the way you guys have assessed Dana Wheeler Nicholson's performance. How about that? Here's, my biggest problem with the movie is

after Doc Holiday kills Johnny Ringo, which is just an amazing scene. Yeah. Yeah. There's just a lot of killing that happens after that that I don't really understand. I guess they're hunting down Ike. Yeah, I mean, here's a nitpick is that the last third of the movie, movie is essentially like, like, crazy.

It's like a lynch mob. They're just going around, like, killing everybody. Yeah. Yeah. That's what cobra was. Cobra, the last 30 minutes was basically, like, this cult has lost its mind and they're just killing everybody. Sly's got to stop them.

It's like, what's happening? The heroes are killing everybody in this movie. That's what's weird about it, you know? It's just kind of one of those things where it's all leading up to Doc succumbing to TB and then Wyatt having that final sit down with him. And then he goes and he meets up with Josephine and then they're happily ever after. But I don't know. Just that whole little interlude in the third act, I found it to be a little strange.

Best quotes. I never saw a rich man that didn't have a guilty conscience. I already have a guilty conscience. I might as well have the money, too. It's great. It's a good line. I don't think I'll let you arrest us today, B. Han. Like how Kurt Russell says that.

Make no mistake. It's not revenge. She's after. It's the reckoning. Said that about Chris Ryan after Grantland got going away. I can't remember the exact line. but when Kilmer, they ask something like... I started being dead.

What the hell are you doing this for anyway? Wide up is my friend. Yeah, well, I got lots of friends. And then Kilmer kind of looks away. He's like... I don't. That whole part's great. It's just great Valcomer.

Virtually every line of dialogue that Val Kilmer has... It's a lot of great lines. It's really good. I really like... Johnny, I apologize. I forgot you were there. You may go now. Yeah.

That part is really good. I mean, your date. Daisy you do. I'm your Huckleberry. Yeah, like a lot of the Kilmer stuff. Probably unanswerable questions. Does Kevin Costner make this movie better or worse? Well, we know that answer.

He did make the movie. You put Kevin Costner in this movie with everybody else. Oh, man. I don't think you can make it without Russell. Russell is just like, I think Costner, especially at this point, was in his own head about being like an otore. And he's also too famous. Yeah.

Russell's like the right level of famous. One of the reasons why Wyatt Earp is so long is that they go into so much detail about the romantic relationships he had. Because it starts with him as like a teenager. Goes all the way through his law enforcement and goes all the way to Tombstone. But like a lot of time is spent with his different

relationships. So I think he was interested in different aspects of the character. Here's what Russell said and it leads to an unanswerable question. The shame about Tombstone that you can't possibly appreciate. They gave them the tape of everything on the movie, whatever I want to do to reconstruct the movie. The movie, what you saw okay is that movie.

The movie is the godfather or Western godfather. That's how different. That movie is from the one you saw. And so the person asked, so why didn't you reconstruct it? And he said, because I got a life. Someday I may do it, but I need to go back to the script, back to all my notes. I'd have to find my notes.

And then he goes, you know what I found the other day? Because I'm moving stuff. I found the last scene I wrote, the scene between Watt and Doc, the hospital scene. So Kurt Russell basically admitting he wrote extra scenes in it. The question is, we've never really seen somebody do this where they just basically go back and be like, let's take one more swing at this. Would you want to watch a movie that were a reconstructed tombstone that they tried to make as the Western Godfather? You know, I was going to ask you this because, you know, there was that period of time where I think that there was a lot more interest around.

director's cuts and reconstructions like they did the chronological godfather. There was the Apocalypse Now director's cut. But the home entertainment market is so much different now. Do you think that there would be enough of an interest for something like this?

To make money, probably not. I think it's probably a miniser. I think it's a Netflix eight episodes. No, but I don't know that they have enough footage for that. You know what I mean? I think that they have enough footage and he might change the music

and maybe he would change maybe some of the way that the end is shot, because the end is shot in basically like one long montage. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we just saw this most recently and most fascinatingly with the other side of the wind, which is this great lost Orson Welles movie that two editors and two producers and all these people

kind of combined on to reconstruct it. It had never really been constructed. And they had to travel around the world to find film clips and discover shit in Slovenia and in Paris and all this places where the film footage had moved. And what we got, the end result. I think the other side of the wind is like an amazing document. It's not an amazing movie. And I worry that if you try to do this, you'd end up with something that

kind of feels like what they wanted, but isn't what they wanted. Yeah. And I like, I like Tombstone's flaws. Like, I like that it's kind of messy. Yeah, me too. So... There's only one movie I've heard of in the last like 10 years since this all became dialogue that I was like, I want to see that. I still haven't seen this about. But when they talked about Studio 54, how the studio completely fucked that movie up and cut out like an entire bisexual love story and all that stuff. And it sounded really interesting and it actually sounded like what the movie should have been. There is a reconstructed version on the Blu-ray that came out.

I think about a year and a half ago. I want to see that. It's on my list. The one that I really wanted. I thought that should have been a good movie. I still feel like the pieces were there for something. I still really wanted to see the version of all the pretty horses that Billy Bob Thornton really wanted to make. And I think that there is like parts of it.

I don't know if they have all of it. But it was the one with the Daniel Lianaw score that Matt Damon has always talked about. Like, if that had ever come out, it would have been the best thing he ever worked on. But that would have been really cool to have seen that. Why does this always happen to Westerns, too? That's kind of a weird thing. I think they're expensive and tough to manage. I think you can easily fall behind on a Western.

Like, you're out there. Like, there's fucking horses. Like, you're dealing with weather. You're dealing with, like, the elements and stuff like that. Nobody makes a fast Western either. It always has to be sprawling. That's true. That's why Last the Mohicans was so interesting when it came out because it was like, Michael

Man meets MTV. In old movies, it's kind of flew. they almost had like a mutiny on that movie like he was basically like trudging up mountains in North Carolina to shoot that and people were losing their minds on it and Daniel DeLewis was like I'm going to go learn how to make muskets because that's like my method it was apparently

a crazy scene yeah it's good movie I love that movie yeah I see it in your eyes stay alive right around this time of this podcast you guys start just talking about Michael man over each other and talking about a different and Michael Mann movie? Stay live.

Like how long... I will find you! How long before you guys do this over public enemies? Will that be happening soon? I didn't like public enemies. I didn't like public enemies either, but I'm willing to revisit it if we keep doing this podcast for like three or four more years.

I'm sure by the third... Did you say 30 or 40 more years? Three or four more years, I think. And then we go back to P.E. We go back to enemies. I've always wanted somebody to love me as much as the girl in that movie love the Indian guy who got killed

and then she just jumped off the mountain. She's like, I'm done. I'm out. That's true love right there. So you're saying you don't have that in your life. I'm just like, that was true love. She's like, that guy's gone, I'm out. I'm jumping. Like his metric for success in romantic relationships are

would I go see about a girl from Goodfellas? Goodwill hunting. Last one. Would you jump off of a mountain for me if I was disemowed by a, Immediately. She's like, oh, he's dead, I'm out. Yeah. I don't think that she can see that she's also about to be rescued.

Also, though, because it doesn't matter. Also, but just to be fair, the pinnacle for you is the laudanum soaked Dana Wheeler-Nickleson, laying about in a bed, screaming. Would Dana Wheeler Nicholson let me hang out at the country club? No, okay, that's different. And put like a bunch of lobsters on some other guys. as Bill. How long do

Gail Stanwick and Fletch stay together? Oh, they, they haven't been married like six times, but they've always held a candle out for each other. And they have like two or three kids. What a great movie that would be. It would be Gail Stanwick and Fletch

30 years later and all their kids and they get back together at their mouth. Fletch lives again. We should do that movie. You know what happened. The Fletch sequel came out. I went with all my friends. We were so excited.

We love Fletch so much. And it was so bad. And it kind of like ruined Fletch. for years. Now Fletch has been a comeback. It was one of those sequels that just kind of just left you with like this after taste.

Fletch is fantastic. I want to watch Fletch right now. I love how much like Lakers is in Fletch. Yeah. It's incredible. Fletch is one of those where I really don't know who else could have been Fletch except for maybe Vince Vaughn. Maybe.

Younger Vince Vaughn. Don't give anybody any ideas. I don't, I don't, we don't need to Fletch right now. Just don't know how that happens. All right, who won the movie? I think you got to say Carr Russell. Because not only is he the star

and it's one of his best movies, but in the aftermath of this whole thing, he gets to take ownership of making it so good. I'm going to respectfully disagree and say, Carrows is the reason it got made and finished. Kilmer's the reason we remember it. Okay. It's a tough one.

You both made great cases. You know who didn't win the movie? George Cosmodos Jr. Or Kevin Jari. I will say George Cosmodos' son, Panos Cosmodos, is a great director. He made a movie this year called Man. Andy starring Nicholas Cage.

Oh, yeah. That's his game. Crazy. Yes, that's his son. Oh, that's awesome. It's on my list of things to see. Check that movie out. It is wild.

I think Kurt Russell wins it spiritually for keeping it alive. But I think Val Kilmer wins the movie. I think he's the best one in it. If you know the whole backstory, Kurt Russell wins it. If I'm just watching the movie, Valcomer is like, wow, that guy's absolutely. I agree with that. Okay. All right.

So started in 2019, we're bringing the rewatchables back just about every week. we are not having seasons. We're going to just keep doing them and celebrate some anniversaries and some other things. Chris and I are going to do a couple Passion Project movies. Black Hat.

Oh, I forgot to do a category. We can do it. This category is a new category. Wow. Bringing in the new year. It's called What would evil Wilford Brimley have done

if he had been in this movie? What seems? Okay What it really should be is the Dana Wheeler Nicholson C You're like Maddie

No Hold on Would it be Why And I Haven't even begun To defile myself Maybe that would be

The end of the podcast category I'm your Huckleberry I'm kind of getting into Buffalo Bill territory With this now It's like Maddie

At the end of that bottle, you know what she's going to find? Heartache. Heartache. All right, that's it for the Rewatchables. We'll see you in 2018. Thanks to Voodoo. Remember, don't forget to go check out the special rewatchables collection on Voodoo, the streaming service you can watch on all your favorite devices,

6,000 titles free. Or choose from over 150,000 titles to render by in up to 4K quality from the latest Hollywood blockbusters to independent cinema to the Al Pacino Classic cruising. Kyle, you got to watch that one over the break. Okay. All right. We'll do.

Head over to voodoo.com slash rewatchables to sign up and start watching today. That is VUDU.com slash rewatchables.