The Rewatchables - ‘Wall Street’ With Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: December 1, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons takes a young stockbroker named Brian Koppelman under his wing to teach him the tricks of the trade. We take the subway to downtown Manhattan to revisit the 1987 Oliver Stone film ‘Wall Street,’ starring Charlie Sheen, Michael Douglas, and Martin Sheen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we get to today's episode, I want to remind you that if you're listening on a platform other than Spotify, you can only hear the last 60 days of the new rewatchables episodes plus these six classics, Godfather Heat, social network, old school, Jaws in the town. But for the entire archive, three plus years of movies go to Spotify, where you can listen to every episode for free. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process. Firefly helps you generate, edit,

and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah. Still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly.

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly real offer, down to the penny. They're Picking it up tomorrow, nothing went wrong. So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes a smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch.

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need a knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana. Pick up these may apply.

Coming up, Blue Horseshoe loves Anna Cot Steel. Wall Street is next. From the director of Latoum, the next battle is in the greatest jungle of them all. Wall Street. We're going down to drain, okay? The stock is flumming. When it hits 18, buy it all. Something big is going down. I want you to fill out the missing picture.

Mr. Gecko, that's not exactly what I do. Where you can trade your honor. I can lose my license. That's inside information. For power. If you're not inside, you are outside. I want you with me. I'm with you, Gordon.

Trade your peace of mind. Just the beginning, pal. If any trouble does arise, you are on your own. The trail does stop with you. For a piece of the action. A hundred million dollars, buddy. All it takes is a little inside information. Michael Douglas, Charlie Sheen,

Daryl Hannah, Martin Sheen, and Oliver Stone Film, Wall Street. All right, our friend Brian Coppulman is here. You know him as one of the co-creators of Billions. He wrote Rounders. He's had podcasts on The Ringer and on Grantland. He's been on this podcast before. He's on the book of basketball. Me and him talking about Julius Serving. What a month for us, Koppeman. We're going to talk Wall Street. My first question, is this the ultimate first 50 minutes? Everything's going great. And then it turns movie. Did this perfect the blueprint?

Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about it. I mean, this movie and stripes are the biggest examples I think of where the first hour is basically the best movie of all time. And then things sort of turn in various ways, both with the movie and its rewatchability. And, yeah, look, it's an old archetype, but I would say the adrenaline is what you're really, what you're really talking about, right, is how adrenalized and satisfying Bud's ride is as you take it with him. And you know, like by the set, you know, most of us, the first time we saw it, New Gecko, new bud should stop. But even now, Bill, you watch it and you're taking the fucking ride with Buddy. And so you're so adrenalized and rolling along with him that when it crashes,

it is just fucking brutal. Well, Alversone, he, you know, he tested this out with the Scarface, which is another example of this. That movie's an hour plus longer. But same kind of blueprint where it's going awesome. It has the class. classic montage where it's like, push it to the limit. And it's like, he's just buying stuff. He's buying a tiger. It's just, it's going great. And Wall Street has its version of that.

But in that one, he tells you pretty early on where it's going because Tony gets his, Tony's best friend gets his shoulder cut off right in the, right? Right at the beginning before the good run, his best friend gets killed. So the same kind of montage in this movie where it's like, it's going great. Darrell Haynes is decorated in the apartment. Let's add some art. Let's play some talking heads. It's going so well.

What could go wrong? It's like, it's going to turn. But also like the dialogue. Yes, it's funny. You know, DePama cuts that, right? I mean, I don't want to go off on Scarface, but Scarface, which is an amazing, incredible movie. But DePama brings that cool thing, cool sort of stylistic thing to Scarface that cuts against in a way

the thing that Stone does. why it's such a good. Here, nobody's sort of reigning Oliver Stone in and he's able to just roll. And that's why it's so, that first hour is so incredibly enticing and satisfying and hilarious, too, Bill, hilarious, the first one of the movie. And some classic performances, but, you know, I think one of the things that's cool, this happened for you a little bit with Rounders, and you might even been a little early on it, where there's something happening. You have this movie, but it still had it fully happened yet. So if anything, you were maybe two, three years early and then belatedly, the movie as the poker boom happened, the movie became the, you know,

the trademark movie of the poker boom. In this case, they crush it in real time because we have all the insider trading stuff in 85 and 86, which is right when Stone's right in this movie. And then this movie comes out in December 87. And it's still really topical. Guys are starting to go to jail. Wall Street in general starting to turn. You had this awesome combination of mid-80s, wealth and Reagan and all these things that are just driving just an immense amount of money to a small group of people on top of it, the cocaine era. And it's just like the perfect, perfect, perfect time to do a movie like this. What's cool about it is the movie doesn't come out in 1989, 1990 with some distance. It's in the middle of it. And Gecko, you're watching Gecko in real time

going, oh, it's probably a piece of Ivan Bosky, Michael Bilkin. All these dudes, you can see the pieces in real time. And I think that is what makes it special all these years later, 33 years later, is how they kind of hit the zeitgeist. Yeah, they were right. I think you're exactly right, man. They were right on it. You know, Stone, I watched the director's commentary last night.

And Stone's dad was in Wall Street for like 30 years. And a lot of those guys were people that he modeled, you know, he modeled on people that he knew, which is what you kind of do a lot of the time when you do this stuff is you composite from the best stuff. You know, you composite for stuff you've seen. You remember quotes, people said. You remember the way that you felt in these situations. And then you're kind of recreating it on screen. And you could feel his, I love when a filmmaker, you could tell, has like tremendously conflicted feelings about everything that's happening. Whereas Stone, at the same time, he's completely like decrying it. Like, he's totally

shitting on this kind of capitalism, but at the same time, he's celebrating it. And he is celebrating it while he's ripping it down. And I think very much echoed exactly what you're talking about, very much echoed where America was right then, right, where America was trying to keep this role going, right? They don't elect Clinton for four more years. They reelect the same party with Bush. They, the first Bush, they are trying to keep this party going, but it's clear as the 80s or this party can't keep going. You can't keep inflating this stuff. Also, you mentioned the cocaine, which is important to say at the top.

It's one of the only movies I can think of ever where the cocaine use is there casually and is not really tagged as the thing that brings the main character down. It's just used as sort of, hey, this is one of the one of the, one of the, one of the commodities people traded. It's one of the ways you got recompense. But nobody's, even though we see the result of the Coke, and certainly on Charlie Sheen, you know, that scene when Gecko sends the sex worker over to Buddy's apartment. Lisa. When he sends Lisa over and she does, oh, Gordon didn't tell you. But when they do the Coke, it's like weird, right? Because you don't have any of that moment you would have had in almost every other movie of the era where it's like,

I don't know if I should do this cocaine, I have to work tomorrow. Or the guy's just like, ah, give me all the cocaine. It's just no, it's just like, oh, yeah, I'll do a bump. So realistic to how people used Coke in that time period, I think. I was a little, you know, I was still in college. I was like, you were just about to go to college, I guess. But, I mean, so for me, this was like this incredibly exotic and scary look at what was going to happen. You know, I was going to go to finance, but I was going to move to New York two years later

after college. And I remember just being like, holy shit, how am I going to hang on? How am I going to get anything going? Well, for the younger people listening. So the 70s, that's the Vietnam, Jimmy Carter, American Malays, everybody's just bummed out. The hostages get kidnapped in Iran. And it's really a dark time in American history just for people kind of question the country, even some of the humor, things like that, where are we going? Who do we trust? We'd Watergate. Should I trust my leaders?

Not dissimilar to what's happening now. And we hit the 80s running. And we have Reagan, who's an actor playing a president, and he's just all about America. We're going to beef up our defense system. Nobody's going to fuck with us anymore. And at the same time, all this money is pouring to Wall Street. And, you know, the mantra of this movie is greed is good. that really was the mentality of the mid-80s.

How can I make as much money as possible? How respecting other people who are making as much money as possible. Because to me, the little Black Sheep Brother movie of Wall Street is cocktail, which comes out a year later. And you watch the first half hour. We did it on the rewatchables. Brian Flanagan's so enchanted with this, you know, he goes to Wall Street.

He's trying to get a job. And he's just, how do I become a millionaire? He's reading the self-help books. How do I get there? How do I get money fast? That's what this air. was. And Wall Street's the best movie by far that captures it. Yeah, I know you don't go back this far in time, but the biggest influence on Stone was

Sweet Smell of Success and a movie called Executive Suite. Executive Suite's a good movie, fine. Sweet Smell of Success, though, is like the greatest dialogue movie of all time. If you never saw it, you would freak out. It's like every movie you love was influenced by it. Tony Curtis. And it is the most intense rapid-fire dialogue. And that's the thing, the other thing Stone does in the beginning of the movie, which, listen, if you're a young person hasn't seen this movie and you're thinking about checking out, you should know, like, the first, as Bill said, the first hour, but even the first 15 minutes, what he does is he makes you, it's so entertaining and comes at you so fast, and you can barely catch what the fuck they're

talking about. But what happens is by the kind of like 15 minutes in, you catch this rhythm. And it's like a very fast-paced game. And it's like all the other movies, all the other movies, all the other teams were kind of playing slow Eastern Conference, bring up the ball, basketball. And this movie is like the Showtime Lakers. It is just passing the ball to midcourt, passing it down next to the hoop. Like push the fucking ball.

It's pushing the ball the whole time, I think. And you have to stay with it somehow. We have some research coming up later about Douglas had trouble with kind of capturing the pace of it. It was so rapid fire. And apparently he was smoking like 40 cigarettes a day at the time. and he literally didn't have the oxygen to keep up with this retta-ta-tat tap

back and forth, whatever. And then Stone was worried about him. Stone went to his trailer and was like, hey, man, I don't know, you know, I thought you were a better actor than this. Like, he really challenged him man-to-man and Douglas stepped it up and ends up winning the Oscar.

So Michael tells a slightly different version of it, which Oliver speaks to, he goes on the commentary. Oliver's like, you know, Michael's never stopped talking about this. And they're close. So I went, you know, I made a movie with Michael, so I got Dave and I did. So I got to go to Michael's birthday party one year, his 65th birthday, and Stone was there. And so I talked to him about this.

And Michael says, Oliver comes up to him, exactly like you're saying, and says after three days of shooting, it was after the scene at 21, which is one of the best scenes in the movie, when he orders the steak tartar for a buddy. And he's like, save the cheap salesman talk. And it's after that scene. He goes to the trailer and he says to him, hey, I want something. What are you doing? You're not giving me everything. But Michael said to Oliver Stone, get the fuck out of my face.

You're totally wrong. I know I'm bringing it. And Stone goes, fine, go to the, if you think so, go to my editing room. I'm going to call my editor right now. You go to my editing room and go watch the footage. And if you think it's great. And the way Michael tells it is Michael goes, I went to the editing room. I was really rattled.

I said, put it up. I watched the scene. and I go, nah, I'm fucking great. And he goes, and I just went back. And I told Oliver, oh, I get it, Oliver. And he goes, and I didn't do anything different. And then both guys claim. And then Michael goes, and look, I won the Oscar.

But Oliver's version is he goes, look, I pushed the kid and he won the Oscar. So it's one of those coach player, it's like one of those coach player stories where you don't know. You know, is it Kobe or is it Phil? I mean, who did? Well, it's so funny that this happens with movies and TV where it's not being covered day to day like in sports. And at some point, everybody's version of the story just kind of, I know it happened with 30 for 30.

I know how we actually created 30 for 30, which was me and Connor for 10 months by ourselves. And then when it becomes successful, you're shocked by, oh, this guy was in there too. I didn't realize. Oh, oh, this lady. And everybody just decides to create their own version of the history. And it's kind of amazing when it happens. I was talking to some producer in the business is going to get you so crazy, but I don't care. I was talking to some producer in the business a couple days ago.

And he had a sports doc. and I go, oh, bring that doc to Sam. It's a really good idea. Bring it to Simmons. And he goes, yeah, but I mean, you know, Simmons didn't really, I mean, he never made a phone call on 30 for 30. And I go, I go, dude, did you make it 30 for 30?

And he goes, no. And I go, well, listen, I made a 30 for 30. And the guy I dealt with was Bill Simmons. I go, yeah, Connor, too. I go, I dealt with Connor too. And I go, but Dan, but Bill's the guy watching cuts and calling you with the cut edits. And he's the one who gave me. the job to do it.

I'm like, he was completely hands-on. But it is funny the way the stories, the point is, it's funny the way the stories will change. Like, some guy heard it 10th hand and believes some bullshit. And I'm like, no, no, dude, listen, I actually, my partner had directed a 30 for 30. I know how it happens. Well, that's the internet doesn't help with this stuff.

So you, I always did the same internet process for each movie. You read this stuff. And it's like, you know, once Oliver Stone went into, Douglas's trailer and challenged him man to man. It's just like, that's just what's on the internet from that point out. Yeah, but it's great because I then at this birthday party with Michael, I, we were there with Oliver. And they, I will say it's one of these great ones because in the same way that you could read

Phil Jackson's book and then read a bunch of Kobe interviews, they both, Michael and Oliver both believe their version of the story. Oliver knows Michael went to the editing room, but, but Oliver thinks Michael went to the editing room and then saw that Oliver was right. And Michael says he went to the editing room and saw that Oliver was wrong and who the fuck knows. But it's fun to talk about. We've done a bunch of Douglas movies now on the rewatchables. We've talked previously, so I won't do it again about this amazing runny ass from 84 to 97. This is the pivotal one for him. He's making fatal attraction at the same time. But he's still, he's known in Hollywood as Kirk Douglas's son first. He's known in

Hollywood as an incredible producer who is involved in a bunch of great movies and was really considered smart. And then third as, you know, a good, famous actor, but not somebody that was going to win an Oscar. Romance in the Stone was a huge hit. But in terms of, if you said a year earlier, especially like reading, like I bought all these old premiere magazines thinking they might come in handy once or twice for a rewatchable. It turns out huge story about Wall Street and Premier Magazine with a lot of stuff that is in. on the internet. And even like you can see in like three months of premiere magazines, they're not considering it like a major movie. I mailed you one feature at the end of the year, how they're like,

what kind of movie it was 87? Wall Street's not mentioned the first six paragraphs. They had this one in March where it's like 99 critics weigh in on all the movies. Wall Street was like basically it was one to four stars basically for what you'd recommend. It was somewhere like in the two to two and a half range with the best critics in the world. And I don't know what, happened, but at some, maybe it was cable. It was on a lot. It's certainly a super rewatchable movie. Douglas winning the Oscar helps. But by the end of the 80s, this was an iconic 1987 movie. That was not the case when it came out. There are a lot of people who think, I mean, there are certain things in the movie that, like, people who watch movies a certain

way professionally, I think, have an issue with certain things. And we can talk about them. They're real things. Like, I know what it is. But on the other hand, the movie has proven itself. So these people had these little concerns. And it's something I think about as a filmmaker, which you've got to tune out all that bullshit. And you've got to make the shit you want to make the way you want to make it. But there are a couple of moments, like when Bud Fox says,

Who Am I? Like when Gecko puts the raw meat as symbolism in front of Buddy. There are things like that that critics and like professional movie watchers are going to look at in their time and be like, well, that's overwrought. That's overdone. That's symbolism that's too heavy. But then 20 years later, 30 years later, you watch it and you're like, no, no, that's just so of the time. And it's, he's trying to point something out about these people. Like, I don't like the Who Am I moment. I would, you know, if given my dress, I would cut that out of the movie. Me too.

But it doesn't, but to me, I understand why at the time someone watching that. They're watching 20 movies a day, a critic, and they're watching that. They're just like, oh, he's telling me what I'm supposed to think. So I'm going to ding him for it. Three stars, not four. But the movie itself has proven that it gets people on a cellular level. Like, I've never recommended Wall Street to anybody who didn't call me or email me or text me the next day and be like, holy shit, that movie is incredible.

Because the performance is, and I got to say this about Michael. Michael is the single as professional and as prepared an actor as I've ever worked with as I've ever seen. He is the fact that he had a hard time with the dialogue at the beginning of Wall Street, if that's true, the way Stone says it, that movie must have changed his approach because when I worked in the Motilitary Man, he basically speaks the entire movie. I mean, he speaks 100 pages of dialogue. And I mean, he was cold. He just knew it cold and knew everybody else's lines, too. He's one of those people who's, like you just said, he's smart as a producer. I mean, Michael Douglas is basically the smartest person in any room he walks into. Just in

of raw intellect, well, and what's so great and why Gecko's so perfect is Gecko's the smartest guy. It's like an actor doing exactly what he should do because Michael's that smart. He just knows, he's ahead of you. Every time you start a sentence with Michael, you see in his eyes, he just knows wrong. He's already, he's already into the, he's just ahead of me. He's amazing. Well, he creates this character that I think if you say best 80s characters has to be mentioned. I don't know what the list is. If you're doing top five, top 10, whatever your list is, he's on it. It's just period.

End of story he has to be. And Gordon Gecko, in a weird way, became the movie symbolism persona of all of these people. Because nobody knows what Ivan Boski looks like or Michael Mielken or whoever. But they remember Gecko and they remember his mentality and his charisma. And it's really, it's a great achievement. So. So don't sleep on the Pat Riley effect, too. The fact that Riley and Michael were such good friends and they both did the hair inspired by the other,

I thinking that Riley was like the real-life version of it. I think it helped. I think the fact that then Riley was walking around looking like Gordon Gecko helped, like codify that as that thing. Because there was Riley being the same dude on the basketball court that that Gecko was being in the boardroom. I'm trying to think of another character in the 80s range who was that cool.

To be that charismatic in that era because that era is pretty cheesy. I mean Joel, Joel in risky business. I think maybe. But he was still a little nerdy though, at least in the first hour of the movie.

Sure. It was just, it was an era it was an era of characters like Maverick and Top Gun. where everyone was over the top and there was a twist of shtick and Gecko just felt like that's who he really was.

The other thing, I texted this to you, I was saying, you know, this movie's December 87, is this held up the best, like if we go backwards of a movie that could just be released right now

and not, and still seem pretty modern. You threw out first blood, which I thought was pretty good. That was 1982. This is definitely the first wave. But if, first blood came out. Now, that was the only one I thought, like, you could put First Blood

out tomorrow of that time, and it would still be like everybody's favorite movie. So you're in on the First Blood rewatchables? Yes. Yes, please. I know it by heart. I want to have to do any research. Have you ever heard my take that it's the greatest Vietnam movie? I love that take. Thank you. Thank you. It's the second best Vietnam. I have it as number one. Wait, when's the last time you saw Poclipse now? We'll talk about it on the First Blood podcast. Sure. So Stone said, you mentioned his dad was in this for a long time. And so in this premier magazine, which really paid off, that eBay purchase I did. They said, how do you describe the theme of Wall Street? He said, I wanted to concentrate on the ethics of the characters, see where they lose their way,

where they lose their sense of values, where net worth starts to equals self-worth. I think Wall Street is really about the urban culture of the 80s. The pressure is enormous on these young guys to produce. I think they're perverted right off the bat. Why would somebody who is making $100 million have to make another $20 million? Because he has to stay ahead of the next guy. Money is a way of keeping score. A line in the script says it all. How many boats can you water ski behind?

Ultimately, it's not about money. It's about power. Ironically, all these years later, you're doing a show called Billions. I mean, everything he just said in there is essential to the DNA of billions, right? Well, you can't overstate the influence this movie. had on Dave and me. I would say that the dialogue in this movie is one of the five or six things that most influenced the way that we do what we do. I mean, there's no doubt about it. If you look at all of our, I mean, Rounders written 10 years later and nine years later or something, I mean,

you can just feel that between that and David Mamet, you pretty much could just, that's it, you know, and throw some Spike Lee and Quentin in there and you pretty much have done it. And no, seriously, like, if I think about it, that's what we do. That's who we are. You know, that's like what the stuff that we put in our pipe and smoked. And yeah, stones and the thematics of this, look, the world, the world came around again. Everything you were saying before about the 80s, you know, it's so applies to the sort of what happened toward the end of Obama and after, you know, after 2008-08, 2009. After 2008-09, everybody started, you know, not everybody, but Wall Street, the greed impetus, the, they survived this thing, they were bailed out, and they started going

crazy again, man. And we started noticing in the same way that these billionaires were, and we've talked about this on too many of your podcasts, but it's the same thing, right? It's the same thing where America started celebrating these incredibly wealthy people who were charismatic and had a lot of verbal acuity, verbal smarts. And so it was time again to examine the ethics of those power-grabbing, people. And that's why I think our show is so resonant for people. But it's why this movie, as you said, is so applicable to right now. You watch Wall Street right. And you're like, oh, yeah, it's not, you know, it hasn't changed at all. You know, to me, I was watching Wolf of Wall Street recently. And I think that the two of them go together very well. And I think they're

the two best movies ever made about American business. Yeah. When you talk about, this decade, the other piece of it, everything you just mentioned, but you also have the tech billionaires. And they're almost like Gecko 2.0. And somebody like Zuckerberg, who, you know, has just been deplorable in a lot of different ways. But same thing as Gecko, right? How much is enough? How many water boats do you have to ski behind? And he's actually influencing everyday society in a way that Gecko never could have. But the other thing is when Gecko's talking about how rich you want to be, that's nothing compared to the way what rich people are, really, really rich people are now. Like, I'm not going to talk about your own money or my money, but like people who sell a media

company now can make the kind of money of Gordon Gecko, but those people know that compared to Mark Zuckerberg, they have no power. They have nothing in the world compared to Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk. Or Bezos, any of these. Those who, you know, Gordon Gecko probably had, I mean, talks about 50, 100 million a player, but let's say Gordon Gecko had $250 million. Because let's say, Larry Wildman was a billionaire, Terrence Stamp. You're talking about people now the kind of wealth. They're like nation states.

They don't just have the use of a jet. They have a fleet of jets, these people now. And so when you think about the influence Gecko was able to exert, there's like no way Jeff Bezos would get arrested now in the same sort of a way. It's untouchable, right? Right. That guy's like untouchable. Gekko was still grimy and still getting down in it. A couple other things to talk about this movie, but we're going to take a quick break. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors.

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His best instinct here, other than settling on Douglas, which we'll get into later, it was a settle. Douglas was a fourth choice. But he was all in on Charlie Sheen from Platoon. so gets Charlie Sheen as Bud Fox. Charlie Sheen pretty young at the time. He's only 22 years old, and I have some good stuff about this later. But Charlie Sheen is great, and it's a Tom Cruise-type part, but Charlie Sheen's better because he has the darker side, which is definitely emerged and then some over the last 25, 30 years. But I look at Charlie Sheen, and I think of some of the work he did in the 80s before obviously the wheels came off a little bit for him,

I'm going to say David Thompson of actors. Love it. If David Thompson had then been able to come back in his mid-30s as whatever the sports equivalent of a network sitcom star was. Like if he'd become like a professional volleyball player, I don't know, a tennis player or whatever. But so much potential for him and he was so self-destructive in so many different ways. We don't need us to recap all of it. But I think he's really, really good in this movie. Well, in those two movies, right?

And platoon and this, you had a guy who just put the two of them together, right? And also, I just want to say, because people listening, as egg-headed as you and I are getting talking about all the sort of thematics, I mean, the movie's a fucking blast. I just don't want to undersell sort of how much fun the movie. It's like, if you just like movies where people are busted. First of if you watch this movie, you come away with a new 10 insults you can use. You know, I've stopped. There are ways, like, I use so many lines in this movie in my everyday life, all

the fucking time. Yeah. Without even really like consciously clocking, oh, yeah, that's Wall Street. You know what I mean? It's just unbelievably fun. And one of the things that's super fun is watching Charlie Sheen. Clearly you can picture I can the nights Charlie Sheen was having when he wasn't filming. You can kind of see it on his face.

Like, because it's, you know, it's that thing when a guy just becomes a movie star. I mean, he's raised by a movie star, but then now he's, and his brother was a movie star, but then suddenly now he gets his turn. Because I think Emilio got famous a little bit before Charlie. And so... Well, and we should mention, I mean, most people know this, but his dad was a major, major, major star. Huge movie star.

Yeah. And then became an even bigger star on television later, but a huge movie star. And, I mean, starred in Apocalypse now, you know. And... And the thing is that Charlie was clearly, like, sucked in what's great about Stone's casting here of Charlie Sheen is. When you can get an actor who's kind of playing in the...

movie, what he's really living in his life. It's a great marriage of things because there's not that much acting that has to happen. And Charlie Sheen, much like Bud Fox, was just becoming really successful. He was just getting money. He was just getting to date the kind of people he wanted to date that he was always a great looking guy and the son of a movie star. But, you know, suddenly he's Charlie Sheen. Suddenly he's up for an Oscar from Platoon and the movie wins Best Picture and he's the star of it. And so he's going through what his character is. going through. Probably we now know, like you said, he got lost in exactly the same ways that Bud Fox got lost. Oh, I have some extra for you. This is from that Premier Magazine article.

This is what Stone said. Well, first of all, he said, Charlie is only 22, which is only 22, which is only 202, which is crazy. So he's three years younger than you would think he would be. When you're watching, he was 25, 26. Yeah. Darrell Hannah's like four years old. Yeah. He said, Charlie's only 22, which made him much younger than the brokers being busted on Wall Street, but we aged him with good suits, a haircut. He gained a little weight from the good life in New York. His face is a little jolier than normal. He invested his own money in the market, hung out with the young brokers at Bear Stearns and Solomon Brothers, drank with them at the South Street Seaport. Kids just out of college who have to pull 100,000 a year in their first or second

year just to get a space on the floor. So Charlie, I can't even imagine what's going on with those guys, but let me tell you something. It wasn't just beer. Was it just Miller Lights? there was a lot more going on. And you're right. He's living the part in real life as he's Bud Fox, which makes it great. There's also when you talk about the cast, Marty Sheen,

early James Spader, early John C. McGinley, Hal Holbrook, Terrence Stamp, Game of Thrones, Sean Young, Daryl, Hanna, right at the exact time you would have wanted both of those two, we could debate them later. Saul Rubeneck, James Carrard, and Franklin Cover from the

Jefferson's. Amazing. No, no. It's just loaded all the way along. Just every one of those people just killing it. And I mean, yes, Saul Rubenig. When Saul Rubenock says, you know, trail stops with you. It's just chilling.

Plus, the great Josh Most, the great Josh Mostelle is in the movie. Oh, yeah. There's like half a million shares in the bank. He's Ali the Terminator. And any time you can throw Josh Mostel and Dave and I then threw him in two movies after this because anytime you can throw him in a movie, he's in rounders, anytime you can throw him in a movie after Wall Street. You want them.

I have written down 27 minute mark dash hookers cocaine limos and blowjobs exclamation point we are off which ties into what you were saying earlier about how much fun this movie is which we're going to keep saying

Oscar wise basically shut out and one of the things that it got shut out on other than Douglas he gets the best actor but everything else gets shut out including the screenplay which was written by Oliver Stone

and Stanley Weiser since you're writer I thought we would do this that people always skip over who wrote it, how'd they come up with it, all that stuff. Here's what got nominated that year. Moonstruck won. All revue la infance, but...

Yeah. Broadcast news, hope and glory and radio days from Woody Allen. In retrospect, it's a travesty. I don't remember hope and glory. What's hope and glory? I just don't remember. Can't really remember that one either.

I just don't remember it right now. I think there was hope and there was glory. Oh, and both of those things together. Yeah. No, you want that. But Wall Street should have been, it's such a rich, exciting, this whole world you're bringing in.

I think the degree of difficulty, it's like landing a plane, they landed it. I wish it had been nominated. The year before Stone won everything, right? So I think people felt like he got his. And as you say, look,

I think that there are a couple of moments in the movie that made people counted out at the time. And they rewarded Douglas. And that's it. And Moonstruck's great, actually. watch Moonstruck, like, with your family, you'll be so happy. You know, it's a great movie. And Radio Day is a second tier, Woody Allen, but you can always nominate Woody. It's never probably

back then before people knew he was, uh, whatever terrible things. Uh, you can see why Woody. Woody was like Russell Westbrook with the all NBA. He's just getting in every year and whether it makes sense or not statistically. It probably makes sense most of the time he was, you know, the best at the time. Well, let me give you, hold on, piggyback in your point. When you were saying, he won with platoon. So now people, you enter that, fuck this guy mode, which is always a dangerous place to be. You've had a ton of success. And then people are like, ah, fuck this guy. So Stone said, this is before the movie comes out. He says to Premiere magazine, it's strange to suddenly be in a frontrunner position with Wall Street. I like being a dark horse. Celebrity can hurt

the creative process if you let it go to your head. You start weighing your image of yourself instead of somehow keeping your head low down to the ground like a bulldog, telling a good story. not letting your ego stand in the way. So he was very aware of this that there was this big bullseye in this movie, which in a way makes it even better that the movie was so much fun. Well, you know, he had won the Oscar

for screenwriting for Midnight Express, which is an incredible script. He'd had, you know, I think his own, as he's talked about, his own demons, that's where he wrote Scarface, partially to deal with his own feelings about cocaine and substances. And also, I think it's important to say

Stone is a very difficult, cat to talk about because I think he's a great artist and I am not at all sure that he's a decent dude. So it's a very complicated thing. You know, it's not like with Woody Allen where I can make a really clear case that even if you aren't sure about whether he really did like the pedophilia, he did marry this like very young girl who was his living girlfriend's daughter. There's some red flags. I think you can really make a decision or I can make a decision. Like I'm not going to watch his movies as much as I care about them. Alvers Stone's more complicated. Like I've met that dude. I've seen him say terrible

horrible shit. I think he came up at a time where directors were incredibly indulged. And, and, like, I think he was a bad behaving person and proud of it for a long time. He's a great artist, though. And, and I think, so for that reason, like, I think it's part of why his movies, I think he's a guy who wrestled with those demons. I think some people try to hide them from their work. And I think Stone's way of dealing with what he knew about himself. You know, he always talks about that his dad lived life and spent every dollar and left him 19. thousand dollars, even though his dad had made a lot of money, was like, I live this way. And I think Stone took that lesson and just decided to live hard and fast. And it's a complicated thing talking

about Stone. That said, I think he is one of the greatest screenwriters who ever lived and should have been nominated for the Oscar for this movie and probably maybe should have won the Oscar for this movie. Because even as much as I love Moonstruck, if you list those five movies again, even radio days, forgetting Woody was never one that people watched over and over again, because it came out right after Hannah. Hannah and her sisters, which is one of Woody's best movies, that was the one right after,

or two after, but I think one right after, but this is the movie that people still watch. They don't watch those other movies from 1987. The movie that they watch is Wall Street. Well, and that's why we love doing the rewatchables,

because sometimes it doesn't make sense what hits in the moment or what gets recognized and the movies that kind of endure, it's like this whole other level of where to be. $16.5 million, budget made 41 million.

Roger Ebert. Three and a half stars. Nice. Really, really, really liked it. And as we said, no other major Oscar nombs. So there you go. What did Cisco think? I didn't get Cisco. I just, I only care about Raj because he's all over the map.

We're going to get to the categories. Most rewatchable scene are nominees. Marty Sheen's first scene with Charlie. Now, this is a pet peevely. Your mother's spaghetti. Spaghetti Your mother still makes lousy spaghetti It's cold pasta now, dad

Spaghetti's out of big Yeah, so am I You want a beer? Billy, bring him all some light For the kid, will you? Like I always say, money is something you only need In case you don't die tomorrow.

He's just dropping gems Clearly setting up the All right, Charlie wants to go this way And here's his dad He's the working class Blue Collar guy Which way should we go? I think what's cool

about this scene and one of that variables of this movie is just, I really like when real life sisters are in movies together, real life father and son, real life brothers. It's an extra wrinkle. And in this case, they look so much like father and son. And it's just, it's this extra layer that I just love. It's so hard to pull off. Yeah, because how are you going to find two people who are that good?

I mean, it's really hard. Acting's really hard. And those two guys are great together. And you could, that moment, I mean, you're a dad. that moment when he looks at Charlie Sheen and he says, you know, you smile just like that when you were a little boy and you were asleep. Like, you totally understand. It's amazing. That's really like you could see. That's a father looking at his child. It's an important scene. So that scene is one of your most rewatchable scenes? Well, I wanted to flag it. We all know what

the most rewatchable scene is going to be. I wanted to flag that because I think it's a really important scene. Gecko's first scene also I have in, in most row, Charlie finally gets, Bud Fox finally gets in to get him. For me, that's, for me, that's, I'll tell you that's high up on my list. We can, yeah, I have a few others. That's super high. Says to himself, well, life only comes down to a few moments. This is one of them.

Gecko does that. You're the kid who called me 59 days in a row. He's amused by him the whole time. Douglas plays it perfectly the way he's kind of like half amused, but half intrigued. And then he gets that call. He respond to the offer. What? No, he's in Chicago.

What the hell is Cromwell do given a lecture to when he's losing $60 million a quarter? Guess he's given lectures on how to lose. money. Jesus Christ, if this guy on a funeral parlor, no one would die. This turkey is totally brain dead. All right, Gordon. Okay. All right, Christmas is over. And he's just, you can say, like, oh, oh, he has this side too.

And what's cool is they say he has five minutes. And apparently, I read this on the internet, so it has to be true. If you time it, it's exactly five minutes from the moment he walks in, the moment he walks out. She comes in. Right. Yeah, that's it. So this is just a great scene. I'm sure as a, as a writer and a guy who loves of shit. You must love this. That scene's incredible. I mean, it's a, it gives you everything. Just where everybody's positioned in the scene, the way the people are behind him, the way that lawyer guy perks up when he says the thing he says about Blue Star, you know, when sheen says it,

like the tall thin dude just kind of like leans in. The way Mastel comes in and out twice, you know, Ollie comes in and leaves and then comes back in. The Terminator. Yeah, the way that scene is staged when Douglas turns us back to him, when he does it, little things like the way when he does the blood pressure, He doesn't just say, it takes my blood pressure. She says, takes my blood pressure, systolic, diastolic. It's like, yeah, yeah, your blood pressure, I get it. That's what that is. But it's so perfectly the way a guy like this would sort of dominate his setting.

The giant office, just the random minions working over in the corner. The artwork with the thing. I mean, to me, that's the scene. But I'm interested in what your other scenes are because I have a few to throw in there, too. I have the Gecko's Limo pep talk, which I think from start to finish isn't in the class of a couple of these other ones. when he leaves the limo and then the knock on the window and the window rolls down

and he's like, okay, Mr. Gecko, you got me and it cuts the Douglas with that smile on his face. That's just a really indelible moment. I think there's a hunk and we'll talk about this for dialogue, but I got to tell,

there's a hunk in that scene you're mentioning in the limo scene that I think is responsible for more douchebags going to business school than like any other, like I think this is the thing in the same way

that the West Wing got a generation of kids to go want to work in the White House. Right. This hunk, when Gecko turns to him and says, And I'm not talking about some $400,000 year working Wall Street, stiff flying first class and being comfortable. I'm talking about liquid.

Rich enough to have your own gym. Rich enough not to waste time. $50, $100 million, buddy. A player took to get in my office. Real question is whether you got what it takes to stay. And I think that rap in that scene sets up the question of the movie. It sets up the ethical question. But it also, I think most people walk into the movie theater, most college-age people

who are deciding what to do with their lives, before they walked into their movie, if you asked them what their financial dreams were, their wildest financial wish, they would have said, man, if I could make $400,000 a year and fly first class, I'd have it made. And there's Gordon Gecko telling them, no, you're just a sucker if you make $400,000 a year and fly first class. And I could feel it. You could feel people hearing that and being like, my dad lied to me. My family, my teachers lied to me. I'll never, if I have to go be that, a player.

Because the choice is you could be a player for nothing. And for me, that's an incredible moment in the movie of, and an incredible cultural moment too. I agree. It did. In the research, Sheen, Douglas, and Averstone all say that after this movie came out, for years and years after, when they would run into people, they would say, you're the reason I wanted to become a broker. You're the reason I wanted to Wall Street. You're the reason I went to business school. This movie, cocktail, I guess, could say the same for a bunch of bartenders. The movies were insanely influential. Next, a rewatchable scene. I just love montage. This is everyone who listens to this podcast.

No, the montage when Anacott Steele finally takes off. Oh, it's incredible. Just a really good montage. It's got music, things are moving, lots of things, people calling. You get the director cameo? Oh, yeah. Just a lot of good stuff there. All right, next one.

But the Sir Larry scene to me is also. I got it. I got it coming. All right, go. I have Gecko versus Sir Larry leading to the beach scene. Nice. Sir Larry comes in. It's like, oh.

He's like, bud, why don't you stay? Oh, yeah. Okay. And then it's him versus Sir Larian and he's like, you're a two-bit pirate and green mailer. And then he does the pause and he goes, Gecko. He just says it with such contempt. Not only would you sell your mother to make a deal, you'd send her COD. And they're just going back and forth.

We're talking about lives and jobs. Three and four generations of steelwork. Correct me if I'm wrong. But when you acquired CNX electronics, you laid off what? 6,000 workers. Jemson Fruit, 4,000. The airline you bought Break you, mate.

In two pieces over my knees. You know it, I know it. I could buy you six times over. I could dump the stock just to burn your ass. But I happen to want the company. And I want your block of shares. And then finally they do the negotiation. He storms out.

And Bud Fox drops a little art of war on Gecko. And that Gecko like gives him a little, almost like gives him a nuggy. Yeah. the 80s Nuggy. Like, you never see a Nuggy in the movies anymore. And there he is, right in there giving him the nougie in the head. So right after that goes to the beach, yeah, Sunset Hampton, or Sunrise, Hampton's, he's got the 45-foot cell phone. And he's like, hey, bud, I'm going to make you rich Bud Fox. This is your wake-up call. The combo of those

two scenes is in the running for best. I mean, yeah, that's the money never sleeps thing. Oh, yeah. But also, like you got a, like, Terence Stamp, if you've never seen the Limey, The Limey's incredible, and Terrence Stamp is amazing in that Steven Soderberg movie. But he's one of the great movie stars in a way, less known here, but like a real legend. And I love that Stone realized I have to bring, that's a really hard casting challenge, if you think about it, Bill. So you got one of the most, you know, what you say is true about Michael that, like, at the time people didn't realize the actor.

But he was one of the best looking most charismatic guys in Hollywood, Michael Douglas, Hollywood royalty. And you have to bring somebody in who you believe can dominate. him. And Terence Stamp can dominate. So you have to go English. Yeah, you have to go English guy. Classier and richer and he's a sir. And it's like the one thing Gecko could never get is to be a sir. Yeah. And so it's amazing. And I love what you said that mother thing. And I love him Gecko goes well, since you brought my mother into it, 72 and a quarter. Well, now considering you brought my mother into it, 71.50.

Done. You're here for my lawyers tomorrow. 8 a.m. Good night. You know, it just gives them when they're negotiating. So yeah, I think that's one of the best. There's some billions DNA in that scene. Absolutely. No doubt about it. No doubt. Oh, that's great. That's a very satisfying nine minutes. Next one. Another montage. Bud buys an apartment. And the talking heads coming in. And it's like, wait, what's going on here? And it's, I, in the running for my favorite talking head song, there's wine, there's fresh pasta,

there's homemade sushi. Charlie Sheen's wearing this smoking jacket. That's an official smoking jacket, right? It's like an Argyle Smoking Jacket. David Burns playing in the background. Darrell Hanna's looking great. She's decorating the apartment. It's just a winner. So my buddy, I have a buddy who's a real enthusiast for this show and he's a New York lawyer guy, but he's amazing. He knows everything about Japanese culture. And his name is Tom Kratemar.

And Tom bought and waited till last night to open. He's had this. He bought it for $300 bucks off eBay. He bought the Audio Technica. Nigerico, which is the world's first automatic sushi maker that they use in the scene. And my friend, my friend Tom bought it five years ago and he opened it last night in honor of this podcast we're doing today. Oh, Tom.

He sent me pictures of it working. Like last night, he videoed it working and it works like a charm still, which at the time it was like in the movie, nobody had ever seen. This comes up later for me in my, what's like, what's age the worst and the best. It was the worst and the best, but I would say that the sushi machine is amazing. And my friend Tom actually broke out the sushi machine last night. And he said he did a bunch of research. And that machine, which was the first thing to ever allow you to make sushi rice,

what caused it sold out, flew off the shelves. And I have to think Wall Street had something to do with that. It was like you couldn't find it in stock the year that it came out. Well, it also had something to do with me diving in on the talking heads after I heard that song. Like, what CD is that on? And then that was it. That's awesome. A couple more.

The greed is good. Tel Dar. It's the famous speech. You know, on the one hand, I almost remember it being better. Every time I watch it, I'm like, ah, it's actually a little underwhelming. But then it ends really nicely. But there's some weird edits in it. But he has the quotes, I'm not a destroyer of companies.

I'm a liberator of them. Greed is good. We'll play the clip right now, and then people can hear it. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them. The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed in all of its forms. Greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind kind and green. You mark my words. Will not only save Teldar paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

Thank you very much. Okay, so it's a great speech, but it's the iconic speech of this movie. There's other scenes I like more, honestly, including this next one. Martin Sheen, Gecko, in the meeting with the union reps, and Sheen just sizing him up.

Sheen smelling the sushi, which I thought was really nice. nice touch. And then Gecko lays it all out and Bud lays it. And it's like, oh, it's going to be great. And there's this pause. And then you just hear this and it's Martin Sheen laughing. And he does that. He came into Egypt, the Pharaoh who

did not know. Well, I guess the man lives long enough. He gets to see her. What else you got in your matter? Well, I can't see him much more, but if you have any suggestions, I'll be very happy to listen. I came into Egypt, a pharaoh who did not know.

I beg your part, is that a problem? No, a prophecy. The rich have been doing it to the poor since the beginning of time. The only difference between the pyramids and the Empire State Building is the Egyptians didn't allow unions. I know what this guy's all about greed. You don't give a damn about Blue Star or the unions. He's in and out for the buck and he don't take prisoners. Now wait just a minute.

Nexit and then leads to the battle that they have in the elevator, which there feels like some real-life shit in there. He's using your kid. He's got your prick in his back pocket, but you're too blind to see it. No, what I see is a jealous old machinist who can't stand the fact that his sons become more successful than he has. What you see? He's a guy who never measured a man's success by the size of his wallet. That's because you never had the guts to go out of the world and stake your own claim.

Yeah, never judge a man by the size of his wallet. But there's out of the wallet. And then he does that, I don't go to sleep with no horror, to wake up with no whore. but it really feels like Charlie and Marty are working out some stuff. Did you feel that when you watch it? Yeah. Whatever they were bringing up from there is, yes, I agree, is incredible. But I also think when sheen says that quote, it is suddenly like his character from

Apocalypse Now surfaces. I mean, you got this, the dad in the dad who's going, ah, money never, you know, the hell fellow well met dad who's shaking hands with all the union guys. And then suddenly he's spewing out biblical quotes. It's like suddenly he's this other guy. But I do think Sheen's great in that scene. And you feel Bud's embarrassed. I mean, it's an amazing thing, right?

This dad who's just willing to embarrass his son like that because he cares about the workers that he's responsible for. And it's so opposite of everything that Bud's trying to do. Plus, he sees what a bullshit thing, the way they decorated the apartment. And you got to mention the other hilarious thing in that scene is that Gecko drops his sushi through a hole in the... Right. She does that. It happens all the time. It goes right through. It's a great table. Nice job. Amazing to me. Yeah.

I really like that scene. The couple more is Sheen and Gecko when he finally confronts him. This is when he does the how many yachts can you water ski behind. So tell me, Gordon, when does it all end, huh? How many yachts can you water ski behind? How much is enough? It's not a question of enough, pal. It's a zero-sum game. Somebody wins. Somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made.

It's simply transferred. From one perception to another, like magic. This painting here, I bought it 10 years ago for $60,000. I could sell it today for $600. The illusion has become real. And the more real it becomes, the more desperate they want. Capitalism at its finest. How much is enough for it?

The richest 1% of this country owns half. our country's wealth, $5 trillion. One third of that comes from hard work. Two-thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows, idiot sons. And what I do, stock and real estate speculation, it's bullshit. You got 90% of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own.

This is what's, this is the point. Stone's really trying to hammer us home. but those guys are really good in that scene, and those are hard scenes to pull off. Yeah, they're great in it. He wrote the shit out of that scene. And it's also coming off of, you know, watching this amazing screenwriting-wise, hard thing,

which is buds with Spader. And then he gets walked into that meeting where he realizes the blue stars being carved up. And his father was right, Gecko was wrong. And then there's that great little moment where they go, shortest tenure for company president, everybody.

And then you realize, oh, God, he's, he's fucked. He got worked. And then Gecko says, you're still president of the company, which is just so condescending. You know, you'll still be president of the company. And that goes with the dad saying to him, well, he was a baggage handler for three summers. He might as well become president of a, you know, just mortifying, just terrible, mortifying. What other scenes? You got anything else?

Just quick ones. I have the Blue Star Stock roller coaster montage leading to Gecko flipping out. And then immediately she can go and work the next day and it's a morgue. And he goes, did somebody die? Yeah. That scene of him walking in is really good. Then the last one is just their last scene is fun. I gave you your manhood.

I gave you everything. And it turns out he's got the wire. So I am going for my favorite scene. I really like the Martin Sheen Gecko meeting with the fight in the elevator. I think it's just a great five minutes. If I'm flipping channels, I'm there every time for that. But I would just say that's not what brings you back to the movie over and over again. What brings you back to the movie over and over again is the scene when Gecko meets butt.

That's like every real like the same one, bud, the five minutes is like to me. And then the only little ones you didn't mention the first scene with James Spader where you get the amazing what's in it from Wa. Yeah. For me is like, I know that was probably what's in it for me in the script. And Spader was like, can I try something? And Stone was like, do it. And Spader said that and it was just like, yeah, man, that's fucking nasty. He said, could I sprinkle some James Spader into this?

Yeah. And they were like, cool. Just a dose of James? A little bit. He goes, what's in it from Wa? And it's just an amazing. moment of like these disgusting. I mean, it just shows you how disgusting all these guys were, like this lawyer who's just willing to do that. And then I think, I think the other scene that

that I think you'll agree is the whole opening. I mean, the whole opening of him just walking in and entering and you meet Marv and you get Knicks and Chicks and you get here rookie and he gives him, you know, he gives him the $100 and that whole run where you meet everybody. I mean, talk about high bar of difficulty. And, and, and that's the also. what's tough about that scene or greatest the viewer is, that's the first thing in the movie. And if you see that scene, you're strapped in. You're not turning the movie off.

So I think for me, those scenes, but the get- I think you're right. I'm switching to your choice. First five minutes. We're going to take a break, then I have some more stuff. Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay.

Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at storesotails.com. All right, special category. Best Gecko quote. Here are our nominees. You ready? To it. I don't bet on darts on the board.

I bet on sure things. Jesus, if this guy under funeral parol, no one would die. I want every orifice in his body flowing red. I don't even know what that means. Like all Brits, he thinks he was born with a better pot to piss in. I like this because I secretly hate British people. If you're not inside, you're outside. well, considering you brought my mother into it, 7150.

Money never sleeps, pal. Yeah, amazing. Or my personal favorite, you're smart enough not to buy into the oldest myth running. Love fiction created by people to keep them from jumping out of windows. Amazing. Yeah, you're twisted, Gordon. I miss you, is what Darrell Hanna then says after that.

Yeah, I love all those. Those are all amazing. There are a couple of little ones that have lasted for me in terms of the way they get into your own language that are gecko ones. And one is just, I love when someone says their name to you, just quietly in my head. So you say, hope you're intelligent. He goes, I'm Bud Fox. He goes, so you say, and then talk at you, which is just unbelievable and so gross when he's

always like, I'll talk at you. And then buddy says that to his dad later, which is just amazing. And Save the Cheap Salesman Talk. It's obvious. Good one. That's just dark and good. Yeah. What's aged the best?

We mentioned sushi. I think sushi, I can't even say it, sushi has aged incredibly well from in this movie being used as this kind of foreign crazy device. And now it's like a freaking own economy. I was going to flip it on you, yes, but also sushi as an exotic, weird thing you have to smell has aged the worst. Oh, good, good. Fair enough. You know what I mean? Because it's great. And cigarettes have aged the worst, though. Real life family members playing family members. I just like the quote, you know what my dream is to someday be on the other end of that phone call. Because that's kind of the whole point of the movie.

Where the real cheesecake is. The whole Blue Horseshoe system, pretty solid. I know you love that stuff. I'm sure you've ripped it off in some way in one of the billion seasons, right? We actually say in one of the billion seasons, Blue Horseshoe loves some companies. We say it, yeah.

Sheen getting the first Gecko call, tremendous. I loved Gecko's art and rifle collection. I thought it was underrated. I could have watched some more than the wiener. Yeah. The rarest of the world. And then dude gets to say, but rarer still is your interest in Anacott's Steve. The cigarette smoking's tremendous.

Amazing. I just miss these movies where people are just smoking everywhere. Elevators, doesn't matter. I enjoy, so is it Mr. Cocksucker now? I thought it was just a great one-liner. It's the best. One of the first private jet scenes probably ever, right? It's a great private jet scene, yeah.

I was trying to think of what movie before this movie would have had a private jet scene. Yeah, I don't know. Because when you're watching it, you don't, I remember in the 80s being like, what's that? Is that like a commercial, like you didn't even know what it was? We're all one traded away from humility, bud.

Holbrook, who just is coming in as the wet blanket all the time with, you're out of roll, kid. Enjoy it while it lasts because it never does. Spader as a what's age the best, the same role he'd play, I think, 27 more times. I'm in every time. Yeah, that's good. Spader age the best is awesome.

How about fly me to the moon as the, the theme song of a movie. Incredible. Perfect. What a choice. I had to get Sinatra to sign off on it, probably. Very smart. The minute I laid eyes on you,

callback the second time from that guy. Amazing. Amazing. And his cane. I think his cane. That guy's cane has really lasted. Strong walking stick. This quote,

you may find out someday that when you've had money and lost it, it's worse than never having it at all. Good one. Good senior year book quote. And then Holbrook following up with, the main thing about money, it makes you do things you don't want to do. Another good one. And then he has this one. This could be another senior year, but this Holbrook again, man looks in the abyss. There's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, a man finds his character. And that's what keeps him out of the abyss.

Yeah, it's incredible. Totally incredible. And Holbrook, he said, was modeled. That's the character modeled after Stone's father. After his dad, yeah. His dad, Lou. He said his dad used to just come up to you and just say no small talk, just hit you with like over the top with these like daggers like that. And he wanted to, he wanted to honor it. I think Terrence Stamp is one of the things that's aged the best. That's especially with the Game of Thrones connection. We were like, hey, is that a younger Game of Thrones guy? If you just knew him for that, Sheen's last tip, create instead of living off the buying and selling of others really strong. Honestly, a lot of stuff in this movie has aged the best, maybe not the cocaine. But what's your, what's your number one? Oh, I had one more.

Gecko's little future black sheep son where they show them and it's like, oh man, that kid's going to be a problem. And then in the sequel, which I watched two nights ago, they reveal the son, like, ended up be overdosed. He died. Yeah, I died. And it's like they laid all the groundwork on the one thing when he's riding around throwing strawberries. And it's like, oh, man, that kid's not turned out well. Kid loves electronics. He loves electronics. No, it's true. It's a, um, so you have Terrence Stant for what? stage the best? I do. I have Terrence stamp. Well, yeah, because I have Terrence stamp.

Yeah, I have Terrence stamp in that moment. That scene, what that scene does, that figure that he cuts. Yeah, it's classic. It jumps out at you, I think. It's so modern. It's so modern also. I have the real-life family members. The real-life dad's something, I think, is really good. And I really like that. I feel like I have a whole history with Martin Sheen.

Like you, he's been in our lives, basically, since we were babies. 100%. 10, five decades of Martin Sheen. What's age the worst? You texted this to me. The beach scene where they had to loop Daryl Hannah's voice in for the entire scene. What do we call those? What's the movie version of that term?

A loop. No, looping. That's what you say when you loop it. Yeah, because you have to overdub it, but you're looping it. You're re-recording the ADR, but you could call it ADR. It's a bad scene. But that scene is rough because when she's asked, I put this out on Twitter because I didn't say we were doing this,

but I put it on Twitter, which is he says, you know, what do you want basically in life? And she says, a Turner, a perfect canary diamond, world peace, the best of everything. And I was like a Turner. Is that the, you know, there's a painter named Turner. And I was like, is it the painter? And I think that's what it is, a Turner. But that's a weird, it's not like saying a Picasso or a Van Gogh. A Turner, that's what she wants.

A perfect canary diamond, then third world piece. Yeah, that scene is rough scene. Well, that leads to the next to what's age the worst is Darrell Hanna is bad in this movie. And Stone knows it and there's a lot of stuff on the internet about this. It's a miscast and every scene with her never feels right. As a guy who co-wrote a disappointing female part in a classic movie, I'll say it's the writing. It's always the writing. And I mean, he gives her a line like I'd like to do for furniture what Laura Ashley did for interior fabrics.

And I can't blame that on, I can't blame. then on Daryl Hannah. And I'll tell you something fascinating. I went back and I watched deleted scenes from Wall Street. Where were those? I found them on on the YouTube. Apple T, not like on Apple TV. Like, oh, no, like on Apple TV. I didn't know about this. And I wasn't holding out on you. I told you how are you more prepared than I was for my own podcast? Sucks. But, but here's what's amazing. There was an earlier scene, Bill, you're not going to believe it. There's an earlier scene where sheen walks up. up to Daryl Hannah in a club and hits on her and gets faced. She's like, doesn't give him the time

a day. And he's like, let me buy you a drink. And he goes to buy a drink. And then that Mr. that other guy comes over, Mr. Moneybugs, whatever. And they walk away. And that's why at the party when he first sees her, he's seen her before. And so at the party, you know, he goes, that's when he's just like, oh, I think the way he starts in, it's because they'd already had this, like, really intense interaction. It's a bad edit. It's a weird edit. Yeah, it's a weird edit out of the movie. But I guess he felt like she, you know, he had a long movie and he had to cut it up. And one other scene that was cut out is the very end of the movie used to be her on the steps, giving him a hug as he's going to jail. That's a good edit out. He cut that out and I think

that was a great edit. She comes up and apologizes to him on the steps. Well, you know, the other thing with the on the steps. Tell me. When he's walking up there, there's a magazine stand and he's on the cover of Fortune magazine. I miss that. I didn't even know. I saw it in I missed that. Yeah. But the Darrell Hannah thing, because so obviously Stone had a different kind of an architecture in mind. And so you don't know, is it the way that character was written?

Is it the way she played it? You know, they didn't get along during it. He talks about. Sean Young, I guess, freaked her out. You know, Sean Young came up to Stone, right, in the middle and said like. Tried to steal the part. I should, but in front of Daryl Hannah said, like, I should be playing that part, which is an odd move.

Yeah. And so I can't, and Daryl Hannah did look like she was supposed to look. And I think that obviously was what was important. to those guys at that time. In the research, multiple people said she, you know, she was a pretty old school, like, against all of these things. Like, she was a free spirit. I'm against wealth and just kind of didn't like the movie.

And they felt like from day one, Stone said, like, it became clear. Like, I don't know why she even wanted to be in this movie in the first place. So he has this in Premiere magazine because they ask her about it. She said, Darrell had problems with the character. It wasn't a character she particularly liked. She had a major problem trying to learn the language, voice coach, all that stuff. Then this is another one's age the worst. I was tough with her.

I beat her up in the metaphorical sense. And in the early stages, I'm sure she wanted to quit. I think I made her cry a few times. But I wasn't really pleased with her wantonness and passiveness, which were difficult to get through. She needs a very, very strong director. I'm not sure I succeeded. That's a tough one. That wouldn't have aged well in 2020, I feel like.

No, that's old school director stuff. trying. And as I said, I think he has, I think he's got difficult. You know, I think that that's a guy who's had to work on himself because the mode of what you were supposed to act like then, it was a very traditional sort of role with an actress. You know, guys used to slap actresses to get performances out of them. And that was the famous as an out sketch with Belushi, right? You can't do it. Horrible. Yeah, horrible. He can't slap the actress. He plays Sam Peckapapah. Yes, right. And he's like throwing Gilda Radner through windows and doors and stuff. Yeah. You know, read old Hollywood biographies.

I mean, they're all full of that stuff. And sometimes, you know, the culture was such that the actress would be like, you know, but it was worth it. He got the performance out of me because everybody bought into this fucking way of doing things. But. Merrill Streep said Hoffman did that tour that he slapped her. I don't remember that, really? Oh, yeah.

That was a big deal. In Kramer versus Kramer? In Kramer versus Kramer. And she was really upset about it and still had a grudge decades later. I can't bag on Daryl Hannah because I do think the effect. So I agree with you, right. I think she has to say crazy shit. And there's this vapidity in the character.

So let's just say the character age the worst, because it's not a good character. Also, what's age the worst, the Dave Winfield reference. We're talking about highest paid athletes. Dave Winfield, the go-to in 1987, Gekko's handheld TV, where he's like, look at this, two-inch screen. I actually had one of those in the late 80s. Yeah, Gekko's gigantic core of the cell phone. Apparently, the first ever in a movie.

And he narrowly beats Sir Larry, who has one later on the yacht. So there's two. I don't know if they used the same one, but that thing was like a fucking spaceship. Darian's plan to do for furniture, what Lara Ashley did for, Laura Ashley did for fabrics. I asked that on Twitter today. Oh my God. Wait, I asked on Twitter. I just want to see if we got some good answers.

I asked who did it. Like, who ended up doing that plan? Shabby Sheik seems to be the answer, that Shabby Sheik did what she was, Shaveeke did what she was talking about. Blue Stars lead union rep, just about. actor. It happens. Maybe somebody called them sick. That guy, that guy's cheesy. I don't know what he's, he's out of the woman's good though. The flight attendant's rep woman is good. Yeah, he's out of like a fantasy island episode. And then the other what's age is the worst is just, I watched the sequel again this weekend. It was a little better than I remembered. It's still not great. And I guess the question is,

do I wish that movie had happened or not? But do I wish Wall Street just existed on its own without a sequel that would be my pick. I think it could have been worse. It's watchable. Shia LaBuff's actually really good in it. But for the most part, eh. Yeah, I didn't love that movie. I hope it doesn't discourage you

from a Rounder's two sequel with Affleck and Damon. I think that you've got to produce it. I think that cigarettes being smoked indoors, all the indoor smoking age, the worst. Oh, I love that. Yeah. You like it. I'm pro.

I'm pro. That's fine. No, I'm just pro the old school when cigarettes are just, like all the president's men, when Hoffman's just smoking in elevators. Yeah, but when I love it too. But when Gecko lights up the cigar inside, it takes you, it took me out of it. I'm like, oh, yeah, remember when I had a whole conversation on my head about how you never, you could never write a light a cigarette, a cigar up in a room like that.

Oh, I have some casting what ifs for you. Do it. 21st Century Fox won a Warren Beatty to play Gecko. he wasn't interested. Oliver Stone wanted Richard Gear, but Gear passed. And this is during this nine-year stretch of terrible Richard Gear movies

after Officer and a Gentleman, and Goldman writes about it in one of his chapters about Gear, Pretty Woman comes out, Richard Gear becomes a huge star again, and he has this whole chapter in one of the books about, all right, so was Richard Gear not a star

during the seven years when he made these movies? And it's like King David, the Cotton Club. but some of it's bad luck and I think if he had been Gecko I don't think he would have been 100% good as Michael Douglas but I think he would have been good I think this was a good

Richard Gear part and he would have looked great I think he could have carried the charisma and the only thing I can think of he only did a movie like this once this movie that Chris Ryan and I love called Internal Affairs and Richard Gear

just dials it up in that movie and he's like sadistic and super sexual and charismatic and you're like whoa what's going on with But he doesn't really do the verbal pyrotechnics, Richard. He's a, I love Richard Gear. He doesn't do the- So you don't think he could have carried off the ratat-tat-tat.

No, the verbal, it's just not what he does. If you think about it, like, he doesn't really do these big, huge bursts of page-long dialogue. The way he, you know, Michael in this movie thinks so fast. And Richard Gear is more like a slow burn. If you just think about what Richard Gear does as an actor, it's more of a slow burn. Whereas Michael's like, he's a studier. Yeah, you're right. And so it would get.

it would have been quite different. Beatty obviously could do anything. But as you know from reading Goldman's books, Beatty just has these conversations for months on end and then says no to the movie. And I think that's what he did to Stone also, like what he does to Goldman on Miseryt. You know what Richard Gere could do? I got nowhere else to go! The best. Better than anybody. Yeah, better than anybody. That's for Rob, Sir and a gentleman. A movie producer Craig is definitely never seen. He can really shine up a shoe nice if he has to.

he says that. Put it nicely down under everybody's thing. He could also murder his wife's boyfriend and lug him into a giant elevator is another thing he's really good at. So I don't know if this is true, but it was on the internet. Apparently Al Pacino revealed in a 1992 Barbara Walters interview that he turned down the role of Gordon Gecko. This is during the time when Pacino wasn't really acting. He was doing play stuff in New York City. I don't know if I believe this one. I'm going to say bullshit. it. What we do know is Tom Cruise did want the Bud Fox part, and he did meet with Oliver Stone to try to lobby him, but Oliver Stone was already down the road with Charlie. Here's what I bet you

happen with Pacino. Here's what I bet happened. Okay. I would bet you that his agent, the head of whoever his agency is, got the script, sent it to Al and said, we should, you should do this movie. And Al went, I don't want to do it. And to Al, it was like he was offered the movie, even if Oliver, because they knew at the time, if Al said, yeah, they'd get him the movie. And that's probably what happened. So that Stone never offered it to him. But I bet you Mike Ovitz or whoever the equivalent guy was was like,

hey, Al, this is a good one. Let me show it to you. And he didn't want to do it for what. That's fair. What about Tom Cruise? Tom Cruise lobbying for Bud Fox. That's a crazy story that. Well, Stone tells that also on the director's commentary.

What you said. He wanted it, but he'd already committed to Charlie Sheen. And then that's why then later they did make that movie born on the Fourth of July to give. So Cruz is like, Okay, watch this. I'm doing cocktail. We'll see. We'll see what's the better Wall Street movie. You watch yourself, Buster. But you know what Stone gets chippy about is they were making Bright Lights Big City with Michael J. Fox at the same time in New York. And on the commentary, 20 years later, Stone's like, they were making that movie the same time. They were making that movie the same time. I know both of us love Michael J. Fox. That was a miscast.

Missed. I wasn't ready for Michael J. Fox as the lead of that movie. That had to be... Downey Jr. would have been a home run. Grand Slam. Amazing. Different type of thing. Another casting would have.

This is crazy. Oliver Stone gave Charlie Sheen the choice. Jack Lemon or Martin Sheen as your father. That's incredible. And Charlie picked his father. Imagine if he picked Jack Lemon? Tough one at Thanksgiving. Yeah, that's what would you do if Sammy was like,

yeah, I picked Jack Lemon over there. weird. No, Simmons. If Sammy was like, I'd pick Simmons? I'll take Simmons. Yeah, forget my dad. Stone said about Daryl Hannah. She was not happy doing the role. I should have let her go. All my crew wanted to get rid of her after one day of shooting. My pride was such that I kept saying I was going to make it work. There's a ton of Sean Young stuff as well about how she almost got fired. They cut her role. There's this whole scene where apparently Charlie Sheen and her have an affair. and that's why Gecko is so mad about it.

And they just basically, he wrote that scene. They chopped all of it out because she was a nightmare. Next category, Best That Guy, aka the Joey Pants Award. Oh, I have a lot of thoughts. Go ahead. So, I mean, Franklin Cover, nobody under 40 even remembers the Jeffersons.

But he had a huge Jefferson's part. And then Josh Mostel, I think, I don't know if he's Josh Most People. I think they just know him as that guy with that face, but they don't know what his name is. And they don't know his dad as the producer's guy or any of that stuff? How do you separate out the Joey Pants Award from the Dion Waters Award?

Because this is a pure. I know who that person is, but I can't remember what their name is or where I've seen them before. The Joey Pants Award is only that. Yeah. Yeah. Then it's, I think it's McGinley, right? Or is he too famous? No, he's too famous. You know he's Johnson McGinley. Now you know that, you're saying. I think he even knew it in the 80s. Because he was in Platoon. He only was in Platoon with with Sheen and then that one. All right. So, yeah, okay, Franklin Cover, then. That's the guy.

The Vincent Hanna, give me all you got a word for best overreacting. The Bud Darien breakup scene. Sheen dials it up. Might have been a long night out with the Bear Stearns guy the night before, but he's on DefConn 11 in that scene. You may find out one day that when you've had money and lost it, it's much worse than never having had it at all. Oh, yeah.

That is bullshit. About that door, and I am changing the locks. But I think you got to really, if we're really doing the overacting award, even though she's a legend, you got to give it to Sylvia Miles, the real estate program. I mean, that's absurd. That's an absurd. That is an absurd performance. Best schools in the city. You know, a cute young boy like you, got to think of a future lady friend in your life when you finish wolf and around. Of course, I'm taking. Oak strip floors. That's a good choice. All right. We'll have co-winners. But of course, I'm taken, honey. The Dion Waiters Award for Best Heat Check is absolutely loaded. We have Sean Young, who's in two scenes throwing 140 miles an hour and then telling

the nana to take the future Black Sheep Kid away. Johnson McGinley, who kind of a nothing part. And he does really stand out and has some good scenes. He says Mr. Cocksucker. Josh Mostell, aka the Terminator, Hal Holbrook. Martin Sheen is, I'm going to say not eligible. He was in too many scenes. And then my personal choice,

Terrence Stamp as Sir Larry. We only see him twice. We see him. He comes to Gecko's house. And then we see him on the yacht. And that yacht scene, I'm sure, has been stolen in some way in a billions episode, right?

The wide shot of the guy in his cell phone and then it pans back. And it's like, oh, he's on a 130-foot yacht. It's just effective. No, in the movie that shall not be named that Dave and I worked on, we tried really hard to do a really great yacht scene and we couldn't for that. And we couldn't get the right yacht. It was just two more days in Puerto Rico that sucked trying to do this. So we intentionally have not done exactly that on billions because we tried so hard on the movie that shall not be named. But I would give the heat check award to James Karen, the guy who plays Sheen's boss. Over stamp? No, stamp is bigger than that, I think. He's like really famous. famous guy in a certain way. No stamp wins it, but you got to shout out James Karen for the most confused. Something that's always confused me is when he picks up the phone, so sheen gives the phone to him,

and then he goes, he listens to a guy talk and he goes, no, no, you're welcome. But you never say that. Someone says thank you. You say you're welcome. They don't say you're welcome to you. And then you go, no, no, you're welcome. It's a very weird moment. I never have understood it. I've watched it a hundred times trying to figure out what the fuck he was doing. But he makes you remember him, that guy. Stamp. He's plays eight minutes. He, it's four threes.

Stamp wins. Stamp wins. Stamper's totally right. The gecko, the way he says gecko, incredible. Next category, recasting couch. I'm just throwing this at you. Michelle Pfeiffer in the Dary and part. I think the movie goes up a notch.

Perfect point of her career. She was just older. That's all. But I think she needs to be older. I think that's part of the Darian appeal, right? She's been around the block a couple times. She's a little older than bud. Your obsession with Michelle Pfeiffer is amazing.

Have you interviewed her on your podcast yet? I don't know if I'd be able to. Now, you got to get her on. You got to do it. I just wouldn't be able to form sentences. You got to do it. You'd bring her up too much and it clearly matters to. I don't bring her up too much.

Who else in the mid-80s? Would you, she was... No, no, I'm saying you bring her up too much not to have had her on your podcast. Oh, that's fair. Would you've gone Demi Moore for Darien? Because this is also Demi Moore range, like... Yeah, I was...

So this morning, I looked up all these actresses to see who it would have been. I looked up everybody. I think Melanie Griffith. I think Melanie Griffith, probably. Melanie Griffith. So working girl, Melanie Griffith, that's a good one. I think I would have gone with Melanie Griffith at the time. Does it have to seem like she has like that kind of Greenwich Academy background though? I'm not sure Melanie Griffith pulls that off. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe not. But like, if I think about who she was such good, you know, she was just so good and so kind of alive. And she had like, if you think about her in something wild, like the something wild. version of her.

I think it's the wrong energy. Michelle Pfeiffer to me looks like somebody who went to, I don't know, pick an awesome New York prep school and then went to, you know, Columbia for art

and just is in the circles the whole time. I have a great, I have a great Michelle Pfeiffer trivia fact that I don't know that you're going to love because... I love all Michelle Fifefer trivia.

Do you know the Jack Nicholson, Don Henley thing? What's that one? They're at a party in Hollywood. Don Henley, Jack Nicholson, Michelle Pfeiffer. Michelle Pfeiffer has just, word is out that she's just gotten broken up with. And so Jack Nicholson's in the corner of the party, and he's just watching.

And Don Henley thinks this is his shot. And he approaches Michelle Pfeiffer on the couch. And he's like, hey, Michelle, basically, can I light your cigarette? And she just kind of looks up at him and is like, hey, Don, and just turns the fuck away and we'll talk to him. And Henley slinks away. And Nicholson comes up to him and goes. I was like, nice shot, buddy.

She just torches Don Henley at the party. And Don Henley goes home and writes the last worthless evening about Michelle Pfeiffer. Wow. Yeah. That's great. Well, when we do our spin-off Michelle Pfeiffer podcast, that'll be the second episode. You got it. That's a big deal.

Last Worthless Evening. Go listen to it. It's about Henley wishing he could talk to Michelle Pfeiffer, and that's what he wished he would have said to her. Jesus. I mean. Pretty good. Emily was coming off Stevie Nix.

He's probably his confidence was red hot at that point. And Pfeiffer just wanted, she just turns away from them. You can read the story. Everyone's told the story online. You can find all the versions of it. Hi, Don. Have fast internet research. The greed, for lack of a better word, is good line, was based on a speech.

Ivan Boski gave to the 1986 graduating class of Berkeley business. He said greed is right. So Stone grabbed that. Mentioned Douglas, 40 cigarettes a day, had to work with a speech. instructor on breath control so he could have the oxygen to do the rapid fire dialogue. Mottled after Pat Riley, which you mentioned. Stone had the Fox having an affair with Gecko's wife, but had to abandon it because Charlie Sheen and Sean Young hated each other and that couldn't be in the same room. So they just had to scrap it.

Oh, you know who else could have played Dary and Diane Lane? Oh, I'd like that even more than Michelle Pfeiffer. That's a good one. Diane Lane would have been good. I had written that down and forgot to mention it. We're always trying to get Diane Lane more parts than the rewatchable. Sheen spent 45 minutes on the actual trading floor to shoot the scenes, use real brokers playing themselves. He said, here's a movie nerd thing for you.

This is what he told Premier Magazine. We did enormous amounts of moving camera in this film. We're making a movie about sharks, about feeding frenzies. We wanted the camera to become the predator. And then he said he did Wall Street in 53 days, came in seven days ahead of schedule close to $2 million under budget

because there's a director strike coming, so they had to finish it. And then he said, used consultants, some guy named Ken Lipper, put sheen and Douglas inside Solomon brothers, got them in the 21 Club, Lyserk, New York Stock Exchange, no film had ever been done there, and just really got into the culture, which is something you ended up doing 30 plus years later with billions, where you bring these guys in, you ask them for advice, and now these doors start opening, and you get some cool things out. And Lippert, Lippert is sitting next to Douglas 21 in the movie.

Oh, really? Sitting next to him at 21. Yeah. He's on the other side of Douglas in, in 21, Ken Lippert. Yeah, it's awesome. Just a little detail. Apex Mountain. Oh, yeah.

Michael Douglas. Because he's got fatal attraction too, and I think this is it. It's either this or fatal attraction. I think you go either, but this is the biggest, biggest male star in the world after this. this movie. After this movie in Fatal Traction. You think Stone's Apex is JFK? I think it's this. I have Oliver Stone here because he had platoon the year before, then Wall Street, and at that point, he could make any movie he wants, which leads to JFK, which is an insane movie to make.

I think that's his best movie, though. I think JFK is his best movie. Is this your audition to be on the JFK rewatchables? No, we're doing. That's on the schedule. I'm doing first blood, and then I'm doing, you know, a secret one, so I can't. Oh, yeah, you're right. How many do you want me on? No. Charlie Sheen, Apex Mountain? It's tough because I think as an actor, this was his Apex Mountain, but two and a half men making 10 gazillion dollars and being watched by 20 million people every night, I kind of feel like that has to be his Apex Mountain. He was the biggest TV star in the world. I'm going to controversially say, I think Platoon was his Apex Mountain as an artist. I think he does platoon, and his whole life could have gone a different way. And after Platoon, he gets completely

out of control. I mean, if you think about where he was positioned after platoon, he could have been everything, you know, and instead he ends up doing, you know, he ends up letting his, you know, Marker corrected him, Cruz. And Downey later, probably, right? Downy later, but Cruz early. He's basically in a death match with Cruz for all those roles and not getting any of them. It's fascinating. Rain Man. Do you think that's what happened? Like Top Gun, too, you think? Well, he gets this one over Cruz. So I think they're pretty even coming out of 1987. And then Cruz just starts ripping off Tom Cruise stuff. And, you know, like could Charlie Sheen from what we saw in this movie, what we knew of him at the age he was, been Jerry McGuire in

nine years? Like, yeah. Right. But he couldn't have been in the Grisham thing. Because he didn't, he didn't play with the same exact intelligence. Cruz, right? You really believe Cruz is making all those tough decisions. Plus, Cruz, right? The Cruz is. running. I mean, nobody ran better. He was like Usain Bolt watching him sprint just around Memphis. Did you do the firm on this ever? Because we did. Did you talk a lot about the backflips? Okay. Let's keep going. All right, good. Sean Young. So she has this and no way out with Kevin Costner same year. Stripes is her eye point. I say no way out. I think she's awesome and no way out. Darrell Hanna has this and Roxanne the same year. You can make a case, yes. Sure. Roxanne was a big deal. She was incredible. How about Wall

Street? I mean, Wall Street isn't, I think it's an evergreen. I mean, I think Wolf of Wall Street into the Adam McKay movie, into our show, into success. So Wall Street's never had an Apex Mountain? I think Wall Street is a, I mean, if you just think about those movies in a row. How about cocaine, limos, hookers, and blowjobs?

Sure. Just as this is at the apex, maybe. Talking heads? No, the Eagles documentary is the apex for that. Fair. Talking heads? Oh. No, that David, stop making sense, right? You have to give it to stop making sense, I think. This is my favorite one. Goofy Mooby Robots, because this is a year after Rocky 4 and then Wall Street's like, hold my beer and goes even a step crazier. Do you know who the actor is? Who's playing with the thing? Legendary that guy. If you go back and watch, I did not recognize him until I saw it on IMDB. That's like Paul Guilfoyle, who became like the most famous TV actor ever. He's the guy with the robot at the house in this. Goofy movie robots.

How about early before it became kind of known Hamptons? It's kind of stealth Hampton still in the 80s, right? How about steak tartar? Steak tartar, another good one. I think this is the high point of steak tartar. And squash. We're taking one more break than we're going to pick some nits. All right.

You said for Apex Mountain squash. I like that call. That was a good one. Picking nits. Wouldn't Sir Larry know. noticed Charlie Sheen falling him around all day on a motorcycle or wouldn't he've had somebody? He does the look. He does it.

If you go watch slow, there's this moment when he sees Sheen with Gecko. It's a great acting moment. It's why he realizes it after. But not even like, oh, oh, he puts it together. Oh, that fucker. I feel like at that day he would have seen him. During Gecko's speech, one of the worst dubs ever where it's like, this is an outrage. You're out of line, Gecko.

And it's clearly somebody, you know, in a booth. It's really bad. It kind of hurts. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of that in this movie. Was Bud really dumb enough to think Gecko wasn't going to destroy Blue Star? I mean, honestly,

I know Gecko is smarter than him, but Bud's not going to see that one coming at all. He's really going to trust Gecko, the biggest shark on Wall Street. Well, that gets you back to the cocaine and parties and sex workers. So his head was right. That's fair.

Bud Fox randomly being at Spader's offense during the pivotal Blue Star liquidation meeting. Weird. It's a script stretch. And becoming such a dick so quickly to his best friend Marv. It's a movie trope, but you're supposed to bring that guy along more slowly than that before you drop your best friend who gave you the 100 that quickly. And then the Who Am I moment.

Come on, we've got to pick the knit on the Who Am I. Yeah, you did it, but we'll do it the second time because it's bad. How about Sheen crying as he's being let out of the office and handcuffs? I don't feel like Bud Fox does that. I think he sticks his chin up and tries to take it a little bit more like a man. I didn't like the crying. I would bet you, I haven't looked it up, but I would bet you Dennis Levine must have cried. And that's the guy that was based on was Dennis Levine.

Oh, interesting. Dennis Levine's the guy that like Bose gear milk. One of those guys, I don't remember which right now, but one of those guys worked with this guy, Dennis Levine. And I would bet you that Dennis Levine cried and that's, that's my guess. That's just a guess. I could be completely wrong. That's just a guess.

At the end, Gecko wouldn't have worried that Bud was wearing a wire. He was too smart. You're totally right about that. Yeah, of course he would. And then my last one. Also, he didn't say enough in the way. that scene to get arrested. My last one, yeah, he didn't.

Couldn't have had an Emilio Oestavs cameo? Emilio's red-hot at the time. Couldn't he have been the union rep? He could have been Sheen's other son? What did you think of the Charlie Sheen cameo in the sequel? I kind of liked it. Me too. I don't know why.

I actually thought it was the best part of the sequel. I kind of liked it too. Wait, so Emilio plays, you know, Jimmy Fox, the other son, who's just Blue Star for life and he's the union rep. And now we got brother versus brother with dad versus brother. You could have replaced any of those airplane workers with Emilio. Just a cameo? It would have been awesome.

Come on Oliver Stone. Next category. Could this be remade as a 10 episode Netflix show? I mean, technically it's already happened with your show. I just wrote my note for that thing. It was like, yeah, I think it could for showtime. Thank you. Probably in answerable questions.

Did Charlie Sheen eventually just turn into Bud Fox? Yes. Seems like it. How much did Gordon Gecko lead to Trump in the late 80s becoming billionaire cross with shtick, which then eventually led to the next 30 years of Trump? Has to be like 10%, right? I mean, for the sake of your listeners, we don't want me talking about this. But yes.

Influence, right? Yeah, I mean, I think that it all was part of the culture that led to people celebrating idiots. Yes. rich people. If you switch Cruz and Sheen Cocktail and Wall Street, they just switch movies. Sheens and cocktail

cruises in Wall Street. Are both movies worse? Better? Is one better, one worse? How would you rate it? No, this is a great question, Bill. It's a brilliant question. Thank you. That's why I make the big bucks. Yep.

50. Here's what I'd say. Here's what I'd say. A player. or nothing. Here's what I'd say. No, Cruz makes anything he's in better. He pretty much does. Maybe he can't replace Sean Penn in some movies.

But I think you could put Sean Cruz in any movie of that period where some other dude like him is in there. And Cruz just makes the movie better. And Sheen does not nearly have what it takes, the good-natured thing to pull off cocktail. I think it worked out perfectly because cocktail is a 2007 Cavs, LeBron, and nobody else just somehow making the finals everywhere.

Yeah. You need him and that. One more in answerable question that you can actually answer. But wait, though, imagine this. If you get Cruz, you can then cast the whole thing up. And maybe instead of Martin Sheen, you get Duval to play that part. And then maybe you're talking about this movie as one of the greatest movies of all time. Wow.

Duval. Imagine Duval is Cruz's dad in this. And that'd be amazing. Because you wouldn't have Martin Sheen because the father's son thinks. Unanswerable question that's actually answerable. Gecko as the spiritual Hollywood father of your dude in billions, Bobby Axelrod. Well, I would say that he's certainly, I mean, there's no question that growing up, Bobby Axelrod watched Wall Street.

No doubt about it. No doubt about it. No doubt about it that Bobby Axelrod watched Wall Street. Okay. And would have told himself that he would never make the stupid mistakes that right he would never make the stupid mistakes that gecko made right he's probably watching it going i can't believe gecko did that yeah there are so many things that like gecko did that bobby oxford just would learn the lessons from and just wouldn't make those i mean just wouldn't make those same

mistake like tom's won watching rounders or something yeah you know he just wouldn't make the same mistakes next category is the new one one of my favorites which piece of memorabilia would you want from this movie ironically your friend tom somehow is the sushi machine what would you want I mean, the sushi machine would be an incredible thing to want. Because you could use it. I mean, I like memorabilia that you can actually get use out of is really the perfect. I would take the walking stick just because to walk around to someone's office and to someone's desk and just be like, like if Levine and I are having a conversation about some dialogue and I just had the walking stick and I could never hit anybody with it because Dave would kill me. I would never hit anyone.

But if I could just like, you know, put it down like, hey, stop the chin wagon or it's like some, hey, stop the chin wagon. everybody. It was pretty good. Yeah, that's a solid choice. I have the, my runner-up choice is the blue painting in Bud's apartment with all the skeleton heads that Darien put up. It's a really good painting. It would be a conversation starter. He got Julian Schnabel. He got a bunch of Julian Schnabel paintings. That painting's worth like $70 million.

That was good taste. That's a good call on your part. All right. So then my second choice would be, or my number one choice, the giant cell phone, the initial one, from the Hamptons in the sunrise. To have that in your office would be really impressive. I guess I would really take the Hampton's house. Was it a nice house. I mean, if you could have the Hampton's house,

it's worth like $60 million now. Probably a lot less beach than in 1986. But it would be good to, I think you want the Hampton. So fun. All right. Last question. Who won the movie? Michael Douglas.

I think you're right. Can I make the case for Oliver Stone? Make it, yeah. Platoon Wall Street back-to-back years. as good as anybody did in the 80s with back-to-back movies as creators. A movie that has gained steam really toward the end of that decade

and then just kept going going as a true piece of pop culture, especially the Gordon Gecko thing. It's hard to think of the 80s and not think of this movie. It set out everything that he wanted to do and accomplish, and he never really reached the same heights

again as a filmmaker. He tried. but this was the peak for him. I'm with you. I think it's Douglas because this movie allows him with fatal attraction to then become the biggest star in the world. Yeah, and then to have forever

the thing that he was one of the most important characters in cinema history and a character who stood in for a period of America. There's just one quote that I want to say, which we didn't cover, which was never knew how poor I was

until I started making a little money. And this one other, which is that's the thing you got to remember about wasps. They love animals. They hate people. I forgot about that one. That's a pretty good line. But this is a movie that everybody should go watch.

It's just so fucking entertaining. Gecko, Hannibal Lecter, there's very few characters that are just going to live on and on and on. By the way, it's on Amazon right now. If you have Amazon Prime, you want to watch it for free. I promise you will really, really enjoy watching this movie for the people out there. listening. It's just really good still. I changed my mind. If you do JFK and it's like a gang, because if JFK with all the conspiracy shit and everything, like I'm sure that's one you're going to get Ryan and Sean, like I would love to counterpunch in there on JFK, just my little things about

the movie because I watch it. I watched a hundred times. So I'll throw my hat in the ring. Yeah. When we do JFK, it's going to be like the first five hour rewatchable because it has to double as a JFK. JFK is like an all day thing. I re-say. I re-say yes. I take, back my no, and I now say yes. Because just to be a small part of it would be great. All right, dude. All right. So you can listen to a compliment on the Book of Basketball podcast we did about

Julius Irving. And eventually Billions will be back. And it was always good to see you, my friend. You're the best. I'll talk to you soon, pal.