The Rich Roll Podcast - Against All Hope: Former NBA Star Chris Herren on Addiction, Sobriety & Service

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

This is one of the most powerful conversations on the subject of addiction and redemption I’ve been honored to host in the eleven-year history of this show. Left untreated, addiction decimates everything in its path. I’ve lived through it. I’ve borne witness to its wrath in countless others. And I’ve walked the wreckage it inevitably reaps. But my story pales in comparison to what Chris Herren has endured—and survived to now share in service of helping others. Lauded as one of the greatest basketball players of his generation before he even graduated high school, Chris graced the cover of Sports Illustrated during his freshman year playing point guard for Boston College. Ousted courtesy of his outsized partying led him west to Fresno State, where he flourished for a flash under legendary coach Jerry Tarkanian, leading to stints in the NBA with the Denver Nuggets and Boston Celtics. It didn’t last (it never does) so he took his game across the European and Asian circuits, a ticking time-bomb awaiting detonation. Basketball simply couldn’t compete with alcohol, cocaine, and heroin. So it wasn’t long before Chris’ nightmare turned him into into roadkill—an overdose he barely survived that would, inelegantly and eventually, lead to a rebirth and redemption. What has transpired in the 14 years since Chris got sober is a remarkable, phoenix-like journey of recovery and redemption that has transformed his life from utterly craven to one of extraordinary purpose, meaning, and selfless service as a leading voice on the topic of substance use prevention. Note: This conversation traverses difficult emotional terrain. If you are struggling, please raise your hand and reach out for help. You can find information about Alcoholics Anonymous (and meetings near you) at AA.org and Narcotics Anonymous at NA.org. You can also contact SAMHSA’s National Helpline at 1-800-662-HELP. If you are experiencing suicidal ideation, know you’re not alone. I encourage you to call the Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1(800) 273-TALK. If you are suffering from some form of addiction, this episode is a must-listen. Even if you’re not an addict, I encourage you to embrace this conversation as a means to better understand the affliction, as chances are you probably know someone in need of help. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Roka: ROKA.COM/RICHROLL Faherty Brand: FahertyBrand.com/RICHROLL AG1: drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL On: On.com/richroll Peace + Plants, Rich

At 18 years old, I just did a photo shoot for Sports Illustrated. I'm one of the best basketball players in the country. I'm in my first month in college, finally, and I said, I'll take a chance at dying. If you walk in my house, honest to God, you will not see one thing about basketball. I do not have one uniform, one picture, one article, but you'll go to my sink and there'll be my 15-year chip sitting there on the counter. Recovery is the greatest accomplishment of my life. Today, we're going to chart a rather indelicate course through the dark abyss that is addiction. It's an affliction that holds the potential to decimate everything in its path

and leave you but a shell of a human. I've been there, but my story just pales in comparison to that of Chris Herron, one of the world's greatest basketball players, a point guard for both the Denver Nuggets and his home state, Boston Celtics, whose disease took him to just unspeakable lows before finally getting sober, followed by this extraordinary phoenix-like journey of recovery towards purpose, towards service, and redemption as this powerful and leading voice on the topic of substance use prevention. Chris's story, which I first came across in the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary called Unguarded, is truly a testament to the power of transformation and the unwavering belief that no matter how far we may fall, we can episode is a must listen. But even if you're not, I encourage you to embrace this conversation as a means to better understand an affliction that baffles a lot of people, especially non-addicts, and which also likely touches somebody you know or somebody you love

who needs help now. In closing, I want to say that we have additional resources on the topic of addiction and recovery listed in this episode's show notes at richroll.com. So please refer to that. I think it'll be helpful. And with that being said, without further ado, this is a powerful one with me and Chris Herron. It's great to meet you. Thank you for coming out to do this.

I've been looking forward to this for years. I know you just came from Alabama. You were speaking to the college football team there. Yeah. Alabama football. I've been going there for about 12 years. And I was there Monday, then Texas, here, and finishing the week at Texas A&M.

Right. So what is the mix between like college athletes versus high schools? I mean, high school kids is really your bread and butter in terms of- It's my favorite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you've spoken to like 2 million kids

or something like that. 2 million kids, probably like 200 high schools a year. Wow. And now middle schools. You know, I first started telling my story, middle schools wouldn't have me. And then middle schools. You know, I first started telling my story, middle schools wouldn't have me. And then a decade later, they know that it's the appropriate time for them to listen.

Yeah, well, that's a big kind of pivot or evolution in how you approach young people, right? This idea of not just sharing your story, but also this notion of the first day, like what does it look like in the early stages of this? Because it's very difficult for a young person, for anybody, but particularly a young person to put themselves in the shoes of the person

at the very end of an addiction story, but much more relatable to get their heads wrapped around what it's like in the very beginning. After about six years of telling my story, I said, I'm kind of playing into the narrative of, you know, finishing my story with how horrible my life was. So I pivoted. I did a thing called note to self for the Today Show. And they said, you have to write a note to your younger self. And I've done two books. I was like, this is easy.

500 words, you'll fly in and film me. And it took me about a month. Tapping back into that little boy was brutal. tapping back into that little boy was brutal, which then told me, try to have the kids identify with the little boy, not the heroin addict on the street. Right.

Like yourself, I was visited, I think it was maybe ninth grade, maybe eighth grade when some guy came to my school and got up in front of everybody and told his alcoholic adventures. And I remember not being able to relate to it at all. I thought it was sort of interesting and fascinating. I still remember when that happened, but it didn't have any impact on me at all.

I know you had a similar experience and now you're standing in the shoes of the guy who's going to all the schools and trying to do that a little bit differently. You know, I felt like I was doing addiction a disservice, right? I think we focus so much on the worst day and we forget the first day. We're always painting this picture of how addiction ends

rather than why it's beginning. So when I walked into schools, it was a very difficult decision for me to do. I was six, seven years into speaking and I said, I'm gonna pivot. And my whole team was like, you can't pivot. So I pivoted. And as soon as I pivoted, the outreach from kids went up 300, 400%.

Wow. Yeah. So that's when I knew, you know, that the first day, the first day is what kind of sticks with the kids. Right. You know? Because you're meeting them where they're at. Self-esteem, self-worth, trauma, my childhood.

And kids would see me come in and say, well, he was a Boston Celtic, but I was listening to one of your shows and the guy said broken toy, something about being a broken toy. And it rattled me because I was a broken toy. And that's what I want the kids to see. Yeah, I think this is a newer kind of lens

or approach to understand addiction. I mean, you and I both got sober and have maintained our sobriety within the traditional structure of 12 step. And I credit that program with saving my life and continuing to save my life. I'm still extremely active in that. So this is not in any way, a disparagement on that.

But I think there is a sort of trope in the rooms around not overthinking why you became an alcoholic. It's like you are because you are. And the wisdom in that is that there's not a lot of actionable advice in spending too much time in your head, trying to understand how you got there. We're gonna focus on the tools and the steps to rebuild your life and create a better one for yourself.

And I get that, but I think now we're seeing with people like Gabor Mate and a lot of social science research coming out, the connection between early childhood trauma, et cetera, that's contributing to these things. And I think it is important to understand that so that we can catch people earlier on and address these issues before they become out of control.

Listen, I am a 12 step guy through and through. I truly am. If it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for the 12 steps, I wouldn't be the dad I am, the husband. It completely, completely changed me. It's just, there's other avenues. For years, we shut those avenues down and now there's other avenues. For years, we shut those avenues down and now there's other avenues.

Right, supplementing what we already know works, right? Well, let's get into it. I wanna do an old school, like what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. So paint the picture in Fall River as a young kid, what was going on? My brother was a star. My father was a politician and I was up and coming. And I grew up in a tough town, blue collar. I mean, it was

very normal for kids my age to be walking into the Sons of Italy or the Portuguese American club and having beers. That was the culture. And the culture caught up with me. You know, I went to BC and I was introduced to cocaine. And not everybody can understand this, but cocaine became like my therapy. Like cocaine was my truth serum. What is it about that drug that unlocks that? It allowed me to cry and just spill everything I needed to spill.

So I kind of fell in love with the vulnerability of cocaine and it ran wild, right? It just, it followed me everywhere I went. Came out to Fresno, couldn't shake it. Went to treatment, came back from treatment, got married in college, had a baby in college. That allowed me to step away from the life for a little while,

but I fell back into it. And I was just starting my career professionally, and I was introduced to Oxycontin and that was it. That was it, yeah. So we find the drugs that work for us and part of the first day kind of idea That was it. That was it, yeah. So we find the drugs that work for us and part of the first day kind of idea is understanding that they work.

You don't become an addict because it doesn't work out of the gate. It's serving, it's filling some need, right? And as a kid in Fall River, kind of rough and tumble, blue collar town, you become this superstar superstar high point score, 2000 points in high school. And it's a town in which basketball looms large.

It's a Friday night lights sort of scenario, right? Where everyone's turning up for the basketball games and you're the hometown hero. And as a young person, I mean, starting around like age 14, you're suddenly in a position where you're shouldering all this pressure and all the hopes and expectations of this town. I was playing in front of four or 5,000 people in high school. That's crazy. You know what I mean? So that 14 year old boy running through the locker room came out to 4,000 people. And you have this comfort, you're in your zone when you're on the court

and you're able to do what you do so well. And yet after the game, when you're in your buddy's basement, you feel like you gotta get loaded just so you can hang out with your friends. Like that disconnect. Yeah, I don't even know if I was comfortable on the court. I might've been, you know, in hindsight,

I think of how I felt. I was kind of in flight, you know, in hindsight, I think of how I felt. I was kind of in flight, you know, like I wanted to get it over with. You wanted the games to be over with. Yeah, I wanted to get to the end. I wanted the result before I had the result. I wanted the points before I had the points. And I wanted to run.

So I wouldn't even consider myself ever being comfortable on a basketball court. Wow. before I had the points and I wanted to run. So I wouldn't even consider myself ever being comfortable on a basketball court. Wow. Yeah, you said that you don't have a lot of love for basketball. Was it a situation in which you at one time you did or was it always like a duty or?

You know, it's like Friday night lights and the thousands of people in the gym screaming. Most of my time was spent on 102 Phillips Street, like my childhood home. And every shot I took, every dribble was to be better than my brother, better than my father. It was just this shadow. It's hard to explain, but it was just this shadow that I could never, ever escape it.

So the love of basketball was gone. I never loved it. I loved soccer. I loved baseball, but I just never loved the game of basketball because it was just this impending doom that I was going to fail. But you didn't fail. I didn't, but I believe some of that success came because of fear of failure. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you can get into it and try to figure it

all out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And trust me, I've done plenty of work to try to figure it out. But when I go back to that little kid in the driveway, like I'm not out there because like I enjoy this. I'm not out there saying this is fun. I'm out there for a reason. And you know, 10, eight, 10, 12 year olds shouldn't be out there for a reason. Yeah, yeah, you should be having fun. And of course you're too young 10, 12 year olds shouldn't be out there for a reason. Yeah, yeah, you should be having fun.

And of course you're too young to have any self-awareness around any of that. You're just operating reactively to this environment and you're growing up in this blue collar town, mill town, right? That's kind of having hard times. That's why basketball was so important. It was this source of pride for this community and very much a work hard, play harder situation.

You play the games, then you're in your buddy's basement and you're partying harder than you played on the court. I played the games to get to the basement. Like that's where the peace was for me. Like let's get the games to get to the basement. Like that was that, that that's where the peace was for me. Like let's get the games over with so I could finally get down into the basement. And, um, that started at a young age, you know, that it was like refuge down there. Like I can escape everything. Um, Fall River is a tough town.

It's tough people. I believe, um, it played in to my future with drugs and alcohol, but I also believe because of it, it brought me out of it and that toughness. But as a little boy, Florida wasn't a safe place for me mentally, emotionally. Yeah, you have the specter of your older brother and the expectations that come with that hanging over you.

You've got an alcoholic dad, a divorce, not an awesome, healthy situation for a young person to grow up in. But it feels like you had some guidance and some mentors around you, but you were impenetrable? I wouldn't say I was impenetrable, right? But what I would say is my parents tried hard. You know, their life was falling apart.

It wasn't that they've ever intentionally put me in a wrong direction, right? They know exactly where I should be on the road I should be traveling on, but they just couldn't get me to it. And then Bill Reynolds walked into my life and, you know, he said, I want to write a book about you. It's similar to Friday Night Lights. I'm going to call it Forever Dreams. And I'm going to follow you for one season. I'm going to call it Forever Dreams, and I'm going to follow you for one season.

And I'd never been around someone like that before. He went to Brown. He was just unbelievably therapeutic for me. Calm. And he, it's kind of crazy. Like he almost showed me how fucked up I am. Can I swear on here? Yeah.

All right, sorry. But do you know what I'm saying? Like he almost showed me like you, you are, you're not an eight, 17 year old kid. You're not a 15 year old kid. Like we need to help you. Like he started, started trying to help me. I never heard of that word. And at 15, 16 years old, he wanted to help me. And which allowed me to kind of look in. And that's when things started to get tough. Why did that make it tough? I would think this outsider comes in,

he's able to see things a little bit more clearly than somebody who just grew up in that town. He pulls you aside. He saw the truth. Yeah. But on some level to say to you, listen, man, you got this huge future. You're unbelievably talented.

You have this gift and I'm watching you piss it away. You're on a crash course with disaster. You need to figure this out. I didn't know how. Yeah. I didn't like, that's the truth of it. Right. Like he wanted me to figure it out. And, you know, I, Bill Reynolds, I was with him a couple hours a day, maximum, you know, I was, I w I wasn't with him like my parents or, you know, an adult figure in my life, he popped into for practice and, uh, he started just introducing me to like, it sounds crazy, but he's the first person I ever saw eat a salad. I'm not, I'm not kidding you. I never saw anybody in my life. This posh guy from Brown.

I'm 15 years old and I've never seen anyone eat a salad. And he orders a salad and a diet Coke. And I'm like. Who is this fucking guy? Yeah, you call me, you say I'm fucked up. Oh my God. Do you have recollection or a memory of like the first time you got drunk?

Like, you know, you hear, you know, in the rooms, that vividness of that first experience and feeling like, oh, this is what's missing in my life. Like, this is the thing that is gonna- I drank cold duck champagne in my basement. I think I was in sixth grade, sixth or seventh grade. It might've been from my like, It might have been for my 13, my birthday party in my basement.

Yeah. There was a bottle of warm cold duck and me and my buddies cracked it and started drinking it. And it just gave me this ability to be something else, like to experience something else, not be so rigid and uptight and worried and concerned. Like I could just kind of loosen up. And that was, I would say, that's my first experience with alcohol. But you still never felt super comfortable even on the court when you were doing your thing. Listen, the truth is I don't feel super comfortable today.

That's the truth. Like, I mean, there's a lot of work that has been done and needs to be done. And I just didn't have the vehicle to do the work back then. My mom and dad didn't have the bandwidth in their world to help me through it, right? So I just kind of white knuckled it and plowed through it at that age.

And to a certain extent, I kept doing that for years. So I just kind of white knuckled it and plowed through it at that age. And to a certain extent, I kept doing that for years. Yeah, well, in the Unguarded documentary, they make a pretty solid point of looking the other way as long as you were winning, right? Like when everything's going great, you're able to get away with a lot more than you probably would have otherwise because there was so much success happening.

So I think Fall River to a certain extent gets a bad rap with that. There was so many people in that area that wanted nothing but good for me. It was an internal issue, that they tried very hard to point me in the right direction. People looked away in my life. Yeah. I don't even, I feel sad for the people who looked away from me because they just extended this world for me. You know, like I wasn't,

I guess what I'm trying to say is I wasn't looking at people saying like, you're a sucker. You're a sucker for looking away. It was an extension for me. Like I can still go down this road further, you know? So high school, it was pretty much booze pot, some psychedelics, whatever was around,

but things kicked up into another gear when you get to Boston College, right? You say no to Duke, you end up at Boston College, stay local, local hero boy playing in the backyard. Early in your freshman year, you come back to your dorm room, a couple of girls in your room, some lines of Coke lined up in front of you and you're faced with a choice. I am a big choice. And growing up as a Boston Celtic, a kid in that area,

Len Bias was pretty fresh in my head at that time. That was, was that 1980? No, it was 1987 maybe. Oh, it was that much later. Yeah. I think. Yeah. 1986.

But I saw this pile of cocaine on my desk and I was like, fuck Lenny Bias. And like, he just did it once and he died. It kind of shows you how sad that situation is, right? Like, I literally believe that there's a very good chance that I'm going to die if I just do this one time. And I still did it. You know what I mean? Think of how sad that is.

At 18 years old, I just did a photo shoot for Sports Illustrated. A book has been written about me. I'm one of the best basketball players in the country. And I'm in my first month in college, finally out of Fall River, out of my home. And I said, I'll take a chance at dying.

It's kind of wild, you know? But that chance, it was, and I'm very careful how I say this, but it was a sort of freedom for me. And people who have done cocaine and certain people that do cocaine, it happens to them. It was my truth serum. It allowed me to just lay back,

open myself up and say, come on in. I'm gonna introduce you to the real me. And that's what I was addicted to. Well, there is something therapeutic about that. And I think it's important when we talk about substance use, I know you don't like the word abuse, that addicts find their way to the substances that actually fulfill a certain need.

It's an unhealthy avenue, but there's something about that that's working for them that they discover. And as somebody who grew up in a community where maybe wearing your emotions on your sleeve, it's probably not a lot of that, right? It was a way to feel those emotions and express them. Oddly, it made me feel normal.

You know, it just, it gave me this sense of peace. It slowed my world down, allowed me to sit on a couch and just say, I'm afraid. Like I, you have no idea, like I'm in Sports Illustrated, but I'm petrified of what's next and you know you'd wake up the next morning and say did I really tell the truth you know did I really sit down and and open myself up that way and again that's that's the thing about cocaine that I loved yeah um and then it becomes a way of life.

It is. It works until it doesn't. It was a funny drug, right? Like I was never, opiates are a different game. Like cocaine for me was more like 48 hours and two weeks off. You know, it was never an everyday thing. Yeah. It just, it reintroduced themselves all the time.

So it allows you to think like, I'm not a drug addict because I haven't done it for a month. But it will be 72 hours later and the shades are drawn and I'm sitting in my house and I'm, you know, listening to people stop their cars, go to work, get their book bags for school. And I wanna die, you know? It was a very depressing drug for me coming down.

So you have this kind of magical debut at Boston College, but it doesn't last very long. You end up failing a couple of drug tests, big news story. The hometown hero has been taken down a peg. And for somebody who's harboring so much fear to have that like writ large, you know, in the newspapers and media figures talking about you in a less than compassionate way. I can imagine only amplified that sense of fear and

doom that was already inside you. You know, in 1994, right? Like there wasn't many athletes featured as drug addicts, right? And that was the headline, that we got this problem child, this waste of talent drug addict who threw everything away 50 miles from his home. I think the most difficult thing for me at that time was my mom. You know, my dad struggled with alcohol. I just didn't wanna let her down.

Yeah, and she passed away before you got sober't wanna let her down. Yeah. And she passed away before you got sober, right? She did. Yeah. She never saw me sober. Yeah. It was her dying wish, you know? I never gave it to her.

When you think back about that 18 year old kid, what is it that you wanna say to him? Hug him. I'm not gonna say say to him? Hug him. I'm not going to say anything. I'm hugging him. I'm going to hold him. I'm going to hold him real close, real tight. And if you had to diagnose what was going on with him,

the source of his pain and his trauma that led him to make those decisions and walk the path that he did. How do you make sense of that? At 18 years old, you couldn't. No, but you looking back now and understanding yourself with all the work that you've done on yourself. I'd pull them out of the game. I'd take them away from basketball.

It's dark, it's deep. And I had no tools, nothing. So again, and it's probably even 15 years sober, it's probably wrong to say, but I don't know what I'd say to him. I would just, I'd hug him. And I'd walk through it with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He didn't have, that kid just didn't have any kind of healthy mentorship in his life. Somebody who could see the kid behind the basketball glory. You know, I'm careful with that because my brother was a steady, like as far as my life in basketball, my dad, the only thing about my dad was his drinking got in the way. My mom was phenomenal, but at 18, they were going through a divorce. So I got kind of pushed to the side. So for the next six months, I sat on my mother's couch, terribly depressed.

And Jerry Tarkanian called me. And he said, I'm a fan of second chances. I'll never forget that line. I'm a fan of second chances. And I needed that. He seems like he was an amazing guy and really believed in you, really cared about you a lot and invested a lot to his own risk. Yeah. With you. Both of our backs were up against the wall a little bit, right? He was fresh out of Vegas. He was going home to Fresno. I needed to get out of New England, 3,000 miles away.

I figured, I truly believe, and you hear it all the time in the rooms, that me moving from Massachusetts to California was the solution. Right, the geographic. Yeah, and obviously it chases you. Right, but in Unguarded, you talk about, you get there and you're like,

what am I doing here? I don't belong here. You're calling your- Yeah, yeah, I'm at Jack in the Box. Yeah, you're like, there's the pay phone where I was telling her I can't, I'm not gonna make it here. Well, she was the person that I could be truthful with.

She knew that boy. Not many people got to know me in seventh grade. Like she did. Yeah, you met your wife in seventh grade. Yeah. So she was one of the few people in my life that I could go to the Jack in the Box, pick up the phone and say, I'm crumbling.

I'm crumbling in Fresno, California. I've never heard of it. It's 120 degrees. I need to get out of here. But the truth is I had nowhere to go, right? So it was Fresno or bust. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers

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And they have treatment options for you. Life empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. You make a good go of it for a while there. It seems like it was a relatively healthy environment with Jerry's sort of mentorship and belief in you and a certain sort of team cohesion there.

And you had a good run for a minute. I think it started off rocky. I was in a Black Angus parking lot and surrounded by the SWAT team. I've got into a fight in the bar. It started off rocky. Right. You know, from an athletic standpoint, it was great, right?

Like we're playing in front of 13,000 people, selling arena, it's live. Fresno was a lot like Fall River in a bigger sense. It was a very blue collar town. And I think they respected the way I played the game. And I think they respected where I had come from. And, you know, I became the long shot, the underdog. So I think they, and I played that way. I played,

when people say, Chris, you were talented, I was emotional. Like, that's what drove me, not talent, emotion drove me. Like when I could kick it into another gear, it was all emotion and fear. So that's where I believe I excelled. But part of me on the basketball court in Fresno knew at some point, you're gonna try to tap into this and it's not gonna be there. Yeah, there's that,

was it the first game where you come back and you're playing in Boston for Fresno? Oh God. And Boston fans, not exactly forgiving, right? They're booing you. Yeah, yeah. You know, here's this kid, he's back here

and you just crush it, right? So when you say, like what you're saying is when the stakes are super high and you could tap into that emotional state and just play out of your mind. I look at as honestly, humbly, I look at it as lucky. Like I just, I made my first shot, which allowed me to, my esteem to feel comfortable out there.

I was paralyzed with fear walking into that arena. I just got my ass kicked to University of Oregon. Now, mind you, I get kicked out of BC. I sit out a year. I'm trying to get my drug problem under control. I'm going to AA. I'm working with my assistant coach and busted my ass to get back.

And I step on University of Oregon's basketball court and they destroy me. They took everything from me that game. And from Eugene, Oregon to Boston, Massachusetts, I contemplated quitting. Like, I can't do this. I can't embarrass my family. I can't embarrass myself. I'm not a division one basketball player.

I'm so far from that McDonald's All-American. Just transfer. Go to a division two school and play at that level. So for six hours on a plane, I cried. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this. And I didn't sleep. I'm in the hotel and we're practicing and my family's coming.

So there was an immense amount of pressure on me. And I didn't do well with that. You know, I didn't. I had to create it in a sense. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I get it.

But I'm imagining just this young kid who's just so burdened by expectation and an outsized sense of responsibility. Like it's life or death for you. Like if I don't play well in this game, then this whole town is gonna turn on me or you know what I mean? And I felt that about me, you know, like it was life or death. This whole town is gonna turn on me or you know what I mean? And I felt that about me,

like it was life or death for me. No wonder you didn't have joy for basketball. How could you? I didn't, I think I, and that's what I was saying. I think I excelled at being incredibly fearful. Like that drove the fire to rip your throat out on a basketball court.

Right. But- Not that I could like dribble really good and shoot on, like it was more of that intensity that was living within me that allowed me to thrive. Sure. But fuel, as a fuel source, fear isn't gonna bode well long-term. And if you're harboring that much fear all the time, it's only, you're ticking time bomb in terms of when you're gonna use again. Because you can't walk around with that level of discomfort being an addict

without picking up at some point. And I knew it was, I knew that this whole gig was gonna end. I just didn't know when. Like, you got to think about it. At 18 years old, I went on this journey to be a professional basketball player. But at 18 years old, I knew at some point, I'm going to self-destruct.

So every time I walked into a gym, every time I played in a game, I knew at some point, it's not going to be the person across from me who beats me. It's going to be me. Right. And is it going to be tonight? It's a horrible way to live. Meaning they're going to find out. They're going to expose me. And the amount of energy that you have to output to maintain this double life. So no one really knows what's going on with you is exhausting.

So fear, exhaustion, panic, doom, all of that. And I liked 19, 20, 19. I loved it. Like I'd be screaming on ESPN, the cameras, I'd be an absolute maniac out there. After the game, I'd jump up onto the scorer's table and get the fans fired up and they loved it. But there was just something about that 19, 20-year-old

that as I'm celebrating, I know deep down inside that this is not gonna, it's not gonna be long. Yeah, it's not gonna last forever. Yeah, and it didn't. You're right about that. Yeah, yeah. You break Jerry's heart gonna be long. Yeah, it's not gonna last forever. Yeah, and it didn't. You're right about that. Yeah, yeah. You break Jerry's heart a couple of times, and it kind of, you're sort of, it's weird.

It's like this X, like on the one hand, your career's continuing to go up. Like you get drafted, you're playing for Denver, then you play for the Celtics. But at the same time, your problem's getting worse and worse and worse, right? So it's this weird confluence. It is weird.

And honestly, I can say at that time, if I look back on it, there were times I was the healthiest I've ever been. You know, like at Fresno, walking into a trailer for an AA meeting and opening up the big book and smoking cigarettes and hugging people. Like, I felt phenomenal, right? So there were periods of time where I had some pretty strong sobriety at 19, 20, 21 years old.

And then I went to Denver and, you know, it was well documented that I went to rehab and, you know, Rolling Stone did a big piece and Fox did a reality show. So everybody kind of knew kind of my legend. And I walked into that locker room and the guys in there immediately embraced me and said, you're a second round pick. You're 33rd. You got two years guaranteed. We're gonna make it 10 years. And as men who suffered through substance use with family members in the past,

I will not sit back and watch you suffer. So we're gonna do everything in our power for you to take advantage of this opportunity. And they did. Antonio McDyess, George McLeod, Chauncey Billups, Popeye Jones, they knew my history and they were like, it's not going to happen here. So they babysat for a season. And I wasn't perfect by any stretch, right? But I was better. I was much better. And that's why when I came back the following year and I got traded, it broke me. Do you think if you hadn't gotten traded to the Celtics and you stayed in Denver,

that ultimately you would have been able to figure it out? and you stayed in Denver that ultimately you would have been able to figure it out? You know what I found out in the NBA to be truthful? My emotion didn't work anymore. Then it was real talent. Then it was real size. You know, that fiery, tough, you know, blue collar kid on the basketball court.

Like that wasn't giving me an edge in the NBA. So whether I self-destructed or not, I don't think in hindsight, looking back, I would have had this long successful NBA career because I was at my limit. When Shaquille O'Neal tries to block your shot and you feel like there's a tree over you. It doesn't matter how angry you are.

No, yeah, that's not gonna help. But you gotta find some kind of other gear, right? That's a little more sustainable if you're gonna operate at the highest of the elite level. And that gear required discipline. It required sobriety. And I couldn't have it if I was going to make this work

I'm going to get sober and I'm going to lock in and I'm going to show up every day to put the work in I didn't have that ability so I knew I was going to lose it and that's why that's why I kind of enjoyed going to Europe. I was running away again.

I won't fail in front of, I'm gonna head to Europe and fail on my own. Yeah, you're getting paid well. You can do this thing you know how to do, but the stakes are a lot lower and no one in the US is paying attention and you can fuck around and you're so far away from home, it's not gonna make the headlines in the Boston Globe.

I just, I'll never forget it. I have a horrible story. I don't even know what's appropriate to be on here. Right? No, tell it. So my wife wanted me to get help, obviously. And there was this pain management clinic in Boston that puts a pellet inside of you, right? So sadly, I can't even describe it

because I went up there and it was $750. And we didn't have $750. So I walk into this office and my wife is sitting there and she's so happy that I'm gonna get this opiate blocker implanted in me that I walk in the back to meet with the doctor and I had a razor blade and gauze pads in my pocket. So I met with him for about 15 minutes

and I said, you know something, sir, I'm gonna pass on the pellet. May I use your bathroom? I walked into the bathroom, I sliced my stomach open. I put gauze pads, tape, and I walked out and my wife saw it and she was like, way to go, babe. Yeah. And there was no pellet, the $750. Addicts are crafty, man. Yeah. Yeah. But, but, but saying that is I, I took an immense drug habit, you know, um, intense drug habit to Italy with me, you know, I was, and, and part of me, if I could, like, those are people that I never made an amends to the Italians,

the teams that I played for, um, because they didn't get what they scouted. I got off that plane and I was taking thousands, 1600 milligrams of oxys a day. That's the athlete that you just acquired. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, yeah. So, opioids, Oxycontin enter the picture.

When was that? It was shortly before you started with the Celtics? And then that quickly ramps up into a 1600 milligram a day habit of Oxy while you're playing for the Celtics. There's a crazy story where you're warming up for a game and you go out shortly before you're dope sick. You go out to the parking lot to score

so that you could just play the game. Completely. And you ended up having a pretty good game. Which is like, you had this unreal ability to play high or stay up all night, party your ass off and just be an absolute wreck. And then like four hours later, take the court and crush it, which is-

I did so at a younger age, right? Like when I got- That doesn't, that's not gonna- It's not, it wasn't gonna last for me. In high school, right? But 1,600 milligrams of Oxycontin a day and I'm sitting in my locker room and I'm like, I'm not feeling good.

Like the early withdrawal symptoms are coming on. I'm kind of like, I got a run'm like, I'm not feeling good. Like the early withdrawal symptoms are coming on. I'm kind of like, I got a runny nose. I'm sneezing and starting to get a little achy. And I call my drug dealer and I said, listen, I'm playing. I need you up here before, right? I'll leave him some tickets. I'll meet you after the game. I'll give you a couple of thousand dollars and I'll get what I need, but I need you now. And he punched it and he drove and I kept running off the floor. No, and like, think of that moment, like I'm starting and my family, they're so proud of me. And this is the dream growing up in Massachusetts to play for the Celtics? I guess so. Right. I mean, if you think about it, I guess so. I mean,

was it really? Apparently, you know, I don't know. I mean, if you really look back at it, was that my dream? Maybe my dream was to like paint and like play music, you know? Yeah. I just never was exposed to anything else but that. But my point is I was, I ran outside the arena with like eight minutes to go and the place was packed and I run, I leave the locker room, go left, another left, down the stairs through the player's parking lot. And he's waiting for me.

I pay him. He gives them to me. I throw them into my mouth. I run back to the arena and they introduced me shortly after. And that's normal. Like there's people who will watch this show, you know, and say,

oh, that's, I get that. Yeah, of course. And there's people who watch it will say, what a sick bastard, you know? But. Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with not understanding that you need that just to be normal. Without it, there's no way you're gonna be able to play.

Yeah, and I hate- It's not about like being in some peak state of being high. Of performance, yeah. Yeah, you're just trying to get to a baseline. You know, I, I think it's always, it's, it was in the beginning, it was a really hard question to answer. Like, did you ever play high? And every part of me wanted to say no, but the truth is I wouldn't have been able to play unless I was under the influence

with the, in the world of opiates, You know, like I didn't do cocaine before the game because it was going to make me perform at a higher level. I did opiates so I could be normal and perform at a normal level. And that's the chase, right? I think, you know, even as a professional athlete, what you start to fall into, right? I'm strung out on oxys and I am, I would try to like get myself away from it and get in the gym just as whether it's sprints,

runs, shots, my body didn't feel right on them. I mean, without them. Without them, yeah. So I knew that I was gonna have to step away from the game of basketball for about six months to kind of rewire my brain and my body to the muscle memory to be able to perform at that level without him. Wow.

So I just chased. It was just a constant chase. So your time at the Celtics ends. Yeah. You go overseas, you play in all these countries, Poland, Turkey, China, Italy. You bring like a big bag of oxy with you, right? Did you travel internationally with that?

No, it's a good story. Did it shift you or how did you actually? So I brought some to Italy with me, I believe. Yeah. So I brought some to Italy with me, I believe. Yeah. So I brought, it was probably like 300 oxys with me. And I was like, I'm gonna manage this. And then the next country I went to was Turkey. And I was like, there's no way I'm bringing to Turkey, right?

Yeah. If you're of a certain age, you saw a certain movie that terrified you oh my god yeah so i'm like i'll figure it out when i get there uh-huh and uh i went on that flight without i fought in my hotel room my father came with me he witnessed my withdrawals um you know, I would wake up and the bed would be sideways. Um, that's how active my legs were kicking. And, um, I started really trying to hustle some heroin, you know, some, some, some opiates and, uh, couldn't find any. So for like a month, I'm sick. So I call a guy at home and I said,

I just wired you 5,000, send me a bunch of oxys. And he sent them. And the plan in a newspaper, you can't feel them, FedEx. So I get a phone call from my team that says, here's a package down at the local shop, but for some reason they want you to come here to pick it up. Oh man, it's a sting.

It's a total sting. Wow, in Istanbul? I went for it. I didn't care about the sting. Like there was $5,000 worth of Oxycontin in that package. So I go there and as I'm sitting there at the counter signing IDs with some of my, like the team personnel outside with me, I'm like, these guys are about to witness Midnight Express. Like I'm about to get locked up in Turkey. And the guy comes around

the corner and he has the package wrapped in tape. And I'm like, fuck, it's it. Should I run? Should I say it's not mine? I grabbed it. So I turn around and as I'm walking out of there, I'm like, how come nobody's tackling me? I get in the backseat of the car. I start opening up. When I get to where they were supposed to be, someone in the airport beat me to it. Got rid of all the pills and wrote me a little note. Basically like, get your shit together, man. This is sad. Like a customs officer who knew who you were.

Intervened. Wow. That was turkey. You can'ted, intervened. Wow. That was turkey. You can't make that shit up. No. What you can't make up is the fact that I went, you know, like that's- Well, that's, I mean, that's addiction in a nutshell.

And I think that's what people who don't have familiarity with this disease don't understand. Like it's gonna drive you to just make insane decisions because nothing else matters. I'm on that drive over, right? To the FedEx in Turkey. And I'm like, I have a child. I have a wife, but there's a chance I'm going to feel better. And there's a chance I'm going to go to prison. And I went for it. That's wild.

And for many people, maybe that would have been wake up call enough. Not for this guy though. No, no, it wasn't. And sadly, right? Like I say, I tell these stories with great pain and embarrassment. You know what I mean? Like I never, I don't get any enjoyment

or it's painful to say because I know on the other end of this, like my son who's 25 and my daughter who's 22, they're going to go on and they're going to watch this interview. But they know these stories. They do. And they know you and they know the way that you've showed up over the last 14 years. But it doesn't mean they want to always hear them. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I signed, that's when I did Unguarded, our world changed. That was a big deal.

I mean, that documentary is so powerful and unbelievable. I had no idea, honestly. And it didn't even happen by accident. Like John Hawk could tell you, most of the footage, the hours they spent with me was me teaching kids how to play basketball in a gym. At the tail end of them wrapping up filming, I got a couple of speaking events and he followed me. And he said like, this is the documentary.

Right. I'm gonna tell it. You're gonna tell it in your story. And that's where Ungguarded came from. It was not supposed to be me telling my story. And I had no idea 15 years ago, 14 years ago, how powerful that would be. The mission was for outreach.

Someone just say, hey, I want help. If someone can hear my story and say, I want to stop my recovery process, that was really my mission at its core. And I would walk into these schools and I would tell this story of my life. And they would message me on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and say, I'm so happy for you. God bless you. Hope you stay sober for your kids. I had 3000 kids in that gym and nobody told me their story. So I'm like, how am I not interacting with the, like, why can't I get to them? So I pivoted and did the first day. And, you know, I don't, I mean, it was said

long before I said it, right. But I think we put way too much energy and effort in the, the worst day and we forget the first day. You know, everybody wants to say how bad it got, not the reason it began. It makes you look in. Yeah. You know, when you think about it, you're a parent, right?

Your son, your daughter, there's parents out there that their kid walks in shit-faced, cockeyed, you know, like drunk. First question is, where'd you get it? How'd you get it? How much did you drink? Who'd you do it with?

What time did you drink? Who'd you do it with? What time did you finish? Never why? Parents don't ask why. Right, it's fear and punishment basically. But the why is everything. I think so. I think that allows us to kind of open it. Right, right.

I'm like, dad, maybe my self-esteem isn't as good as you think it is. Why did you feel like you needed to do that to be with your friends? And the first day idea is this notion of meeting kids where they're at by sharing what it was like for you at the beginning, not necessarily the end,

because no high school kid can imagine that that's how their life is gonna turn out, but relating to them why it was that you made those decisions early on and then being curious about their lives. And it's also a very compassionate way of communicating with young people because you're treating them like sentient beings

as opposed to judging them or coming at them from this holier than thou, you shouldn't do this. And if you do this, this is gonna happen. Like it just doesn't work. It didn't work for me, right? But I became that. That's why I pivoted. I mean, we started off this interview,

Len Bias was the first thing I said, and that wasn't enough. Midnight Express in a Turkish prison wasn't enough. Right, exactly. So that's not enough. So what can I do? I can try to reverse, go backwards, get that boy under the bed, on the bed, pull him out of the bed and sit with him

and try to make peace with him. I had a therapist who said to me, how great would it be to spend time with that little kid? How great would it feel to like get to know him? You've stored him away for so long. Like we need to bring him out. And what would you say to that little Chris now? I'm a super emotional, I'm like a big baby, right?

I would cry on his shoulder, man, I'd hug him. Like people say that to me all the time. What would you say to your younger self? I don't know if I'd be able to speak. I would just hug and hug and hold and hug. I think that would be my approach with the younger version of me. Yeah. I've seen you do that with other high school kids too. At the end of these talks that you give, these presentations, you embrace these young people and you just hold them and you say, you're not alone. We're huggers. You don't even need to say anything more than that. Yeah. You know, they feel heard, they feel seen, they feel understood. The recovery community is a bunch of huggers, right?

And hugs feel good, you know? And to walk up to a kid who's struggling and give them a hug and hold them and tell them that I hear them, that's why I do what I do. I wanna get through the rest of the story. I wanna hear, you know, kind of how it all falls apart and ends up.

So you're in Turkey, you're in China. I hear the heroin in China is pretty good. You're spending all your money. I'm smiling. Somehow. How sick am I? Somehow like- You said heroin spending all your money. I'm smiling. Somehow. How sick am I? Somehow like- You said heroin in China is good and I'm smiling.

Yes, heroin in China is extremely good. Okay. I'll never forget it. I walked into a nightclub in China and I was like 45 days sober. And I asked this kid if he could get cocaine. Like I got a little buzz on in a nightclub in China. And he said, yeah, absolutely.

And he walks out, comes back in, gives me a little bag and I walk into the bathroom and I do the line of cocaine. And I know within 15 seconds that he just sold me heroin. So I was off and running. Was that your first heroin experience? No, no.

That was in Italy trolling the train stations. Yes. Yeah. The guy had it tied to his tooth. So like, think of that, right? He jumps in my car and he starts doing this and I'm like watching this string come up and he's got a little baggy. Oh, he like swallowed it with a-

Anchored it to his tooth. Oh my God. Wow. And then he, does he shoot you up for the first time? That's how it works? And then I went away from shooting up. Because I was completely a sniffer.

And then sniffing wasn't enough. And then I turned into, like there were people that had to do it for me. And then I went to the doing it myself. Where does the whole house of cards collapse on top of itself? The house of cards collapse, multiple overdoses. multiple overdoses. The last time I was 32 and I put Chris and Sammy on a school bus and daddy is going to walk up to the liquor store, get my pints of vodka. And I'm going to stop at a little Cumberland Farms and I steal the ashtrays, right? And the cigarettes that were poked out were my cigarettes. So I would take a scoop

of a bunch of strangers' cigarettes. And I would sit at my house and I would drink vodka and I smoked their cigarettes and wait for my kids. And I got a phone call that day, come down. I'm going to take care of you. I jumped in my car, drove. I had about a pint and a half of vodka in me. No one I shouldn't. He pulled up on the side of me. He threw it through my window.

I shot it. And I immediately knew that I was overdosing. And the only thing I can remember is saying, the school bus. I cannot not be there when they get off the bus. Like I cannot have my kids live in that moment of fear. Like where's my dad? So I started driving and they found me like a mile away

crash into a cemetery. And I woke up in the back of an ambulance and I thought, okay, I'm going to the hospital and I'm gonna kill myself. Like I'll go through the motions here, but once I get away from the police, I'm gonna kill myself because I don't wanna do this to my family anymore.

I'm 32, Chris is nine, Sammy's seven, Heather's pregnant, like I'm over this. And basketball career is over. Basketball is long gone. We had nothing left, food stamps, no lights, some nights, no heat in the house. It was hard, like we lived hard. And you're back in Fall River?

No, I'm living in Portsmouth, Rhode Island at the time. My mom passed away and she left me and my brother a home. Heather and I were living in that with the kids. Yeah, but not a lot of good friends around anymore. I didn't want friends. Support. You know, a buddy of mine sent me a collage of my mugshots. And like one day they popped up in my phone,

like his, like a collage of mugshots. And one of my last mugshots, I was so broken. Like I didn't recognize myself, right, at all. But the first thing I thought of was Heather. She stayed with him. Like that, she walked with me. Yeah. Like that, she walked with me. Yeah.

You know, whether it's birthday parties, in school, parent meetings, I walked with her and she pulled me along like that. Like, that's what I thought of as soon as I saw the mugshot. Like my poor wife. This woman that you've been with since seventh grade who stood by you through all of the insanity. And there's two different ways of looking at that.

You can look at that and say, what unbelievable fortitude and belief that she held in you and your ability to overcome this. And then on the other hand, you can look at it and say, she was insane to stick around. I'm sure everyone in her life was telling her to run away many times. Always.

She wanted that little boy back. She saw me probably at my most innocent phase of my life, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, you know, like I was just, I was still in the driveway. You know what I mean? I wasn't playing in front of 4,000 people. There were no lights on me yet. You know, she was someone I could talk on the phone all night to and fall asleep on the phone and, and talk to my, about my parents' divorce. Right. So she's been in it since the beginning in the fight, you know, it was just a different type of fight. Yeah. Um, but addiction, it causes people to get sick and, and we were both very sick as a family. We were both very sick. As a family, we were both very, very sick. You know,

one year in active addiction, like you close your eyes and it's 10 years later. You just wake up. I woke up and I was 32, like, holy shit. Time flew for all of us. Yeah, but you're emotionally stunted. Oh, a big time. Yeah, so it's like when you finally stop. I'm still emotionally stunted. You have the maturity and emotional skills of the age of the person you were when you began.

Yeah, 12. So you're looking at like a 14-year-old. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, of course. So where are we at now? Like 19? Yeah, we're probably around,

I would give myself maybe like 20. I'm hoping, I'm hoping like 26, 27 maybe. Right. I'm getting there. That's pretty good. Yeah, I think so. The prefrontal cortex is almost- Is developed.

Yeah, it's almost online. Yeah, yeah. Right? So the mug shots. Yeah. It's almost, yeah, it's almost online, right? So the mugshots, the overdose, the crash into the cemetery, is this where you end up in treatment courtesy of Chris Mullen? Yeah, so it is. But before that, and I was going,

I'm walking out of the hospital and suicide is the plan. Like the handcuffs were taken off. I was discharged and I'm walking out. And I said, I'm going to kill myself. And a nurse intervened in my life. And she intervened by telling me that she saw me play basketball when I was a kid. And she was friendly with my mother.

And my mom had passed away. So her saying she knew my mom, I broke. And I'm like, I'm thinking about killing myself, but you know my mom hugged me and she brought me back into the hospital and created the opportunity of Chris Mullen to come in. Chris Mullen might've never walked into my world if she didn't walk out of

the hospital and chase me down. And she's a nurse. She's like, you don't have to leave the emergency room and run down the street. That's not in her job. So her name is Diane Reed. it's because of her. Mully and his wife, Liz, gave me the gift. Mully calls me up and says, I got a buddy named Murph and Murph is gonna help you go to a treatment center. I never met Murph, right? Murph facilitates, navigates the treatment center for me.

And I checked into this center called Daytop in Rhinebeck, New York. And Murph talked to him a couple of times on the phone. Thanked him. How you doing? Checking in, yada, yada. So I go home and relapse. Murph stops calling me.

They doubled down on my wife, Liz Mullen. Murph said, you know what? We're going to focus on Heather's well-being at this point, which I wasn't aware of. So fast forward, nine years sober, maybe, eight years sober. And Molly's getting inducted into the Hall of Fame. And Murph is coming. I never met the man that put me in treatment.

I hadn't met him. So I was so incredibly emotional and ready to hug this dude. And he died that day. He never made it to Springfield Mass. Wow. I've never hugged or met the man that saved my life, Murph. Yeah. So you just never know. Be somebody's Murph. Murph didn't need to be out front, but know? But he just did the work for me. He got me there. Yeah. Yeah. And that lingering feeling like

you don't have closure there because you couldn't give that guy a hug. And also knowing your mom didn't survive to see you get sober. Oh, I've hugged Murph. I've hugged him. I've hugged them extremely close and strong for the last 15 years.

You know, like without Murph, I wouldn't be here. My mom, that was her dying wish. She never saw her son sober. I wish, I'm so, I love sitting down with people and saying like, you have an opportunity for your mom and dad to see you sober. And I lost that, but I believe she sees it.

I believe my mom's kind of walked with me in this journey. I think I got the Murphs and moms behind me. In that treatment center where you lived for 11 months, you went out for a minute, came back. You basically find God in this tiny little kitchen. What's it called? The pot sink. The pot sink.

Yeah. You know, in Unguarded, there's a scene where you're standing there. It's this tiny little room with a bunch of sinks, right? And you're like, this is where I was from dawn to dusk every single day. Was my punishment for relapsing, right? So it was behavioral modification.

They can't really do it anymore. So it's wearing signs, saying I'm a scumbag, announcing yourself as a loser. So really, that was kind of the bulk of my punishment for relapsing when Drew was, when Heather gave birth to Drew. I went home, I relapsed, I failed terribly. And I went back completely broken.

And they said, get in the pot sink. So from 4.30 in the morning till eight at night, you're gonna wash dishes for this community. And there was 96 of us living in there. And lunch, breakfast, lunch, dinner, guys would walk by and just throw trays and dirty stuff through the window. And I had hoses, sinks, and I would spray them down

and I would get them in the dishwasher. I had no contact. So I couldn't lie to my wife. I couldn't promise my wife. I couldn't promise my wife. I couldn't do anything. It was just me in the pot sink. And that's when things started to turn for me a little bit because it's kind of like I let go

and I let her kind of come in. And the next time I talked to Heather, she was pulling up with a two month old infant and my two children walking into daytop to have a family meeting. Yeah, this surrender, the letting go, the finally putting to bed any idea that you're there to save your marriage

or to be whatever, like letting go of all of that and just focusing on being present with what you're doing. Just be still, right? Allowing whatever is meant to happen, happen. I know that one of the counselors said something to you like the most compassionate, benevolent thing that you could do is to call your wife

and tell her you're never coming home. And it went even a little deeper. He said, play dead for them. Like, why don't we fake your death, car accident and let them go. Let your children emotionally, get rid of you in a sense. And I said that to myself countless nights.

Like I knew that there was a better man out there than me. I knew my wife deserved a better man than me. I knew my children should have had a better dad than me, provider. And, but when he said it, it kind of hit me. You know, like I went to bed with that narrative. But him saying that out loud to me was probably extremely reckless therapeutically,

but it's one that I'm extremely grateful for. Yeah, I mean, I feel like among the, you know, countless relapses and many stabs that you had made into sobriety, nothing was really able to penetrate your core until your wife said, that's it, I'm done. And this guy said, pretend your family's dead, right? And that seemed to seep into you

in a way that really changed you. Yeah, really profound moments, right? Like Heather, the nurse. Right. All of a sudden the Mullins with Murph and the counselor. The angels, the Eskimos. Yeah.

Yeah. The Sherpas. Yeah. To get me up that- Everybody needs one. To get me up that mountain. Absolutely. And anybody can be that person for somebody else.

And I'm really proud of that. Like I am so incredibly blessed that in my recovery, I give it to others in a sense. You know, like it's, I'm here because of them. And I've always lived that way from the, I went to bed at night dreaming of being Chris Mullen. That was my dream, not Chris Mullen, the shooter, Chris Mullen, that man who picked up the phone and helped me and my family. I dreamt of that. Like that was my, the game of basketball and millions of dollars was no longer my dream.

My dream was just to be on the other end of that phone call. And I think I've made that dream come true. You 100% have. It's one of the principles, our primary purpose is to stay sober and help another alcoholic achieve sobriety. But you have taken that to an entirely new level, my friend, because you are not only of unbelievable service

to so many people, you've repaired your life. You've repaired all of your relationships with your family, et cetera. You're this incredible, incredibly present dad. And your entire life is about giving back this gift that you've been given. And that's rare. I mean, service is part of what it means

to be sober in this program, but to really shoulder that responsibility and take it so seriously that you're delivering, I don't know, 200 speeches a year. Like you're constantly on the road. You have a self-awareness that your story resonates because of the extraordinary things that you've done with your life.

And that gives you a rare opportunity to connect with all kinds of people because they're gonna pay attention to you in a way that they might not to somebody else. And for some of those young kids, it's their first introduction to what a sober man looks like and what their stories sound like. Heron Project, my foundation, that was the dream.

Heron Talks evolved into me traveling and telling my story. And now you have a treatment, you have two treatment centers, right? And I love it. I like, I keep it real raw that I'm not a clinician. I'm not, I'm the furthest thing from that. I don't pretend to be because I'm gonna have a foundation around substance use.

I have a wellness center. I'm just how they say like a bozo on the bus, you know? And, but I get a front row seat. I watch families, husbands like me, fathers like me walk in on day one and then to sit in their year celebration and see their children, like that's not many people get that opportunity. You know, not many people, that's, that's what's

so incredibly beautiful about Alcoholics Anonymous is, you know, the guy used to, in old time, he used to tell me, wait till you see the miracle. And I honest to God, in the beginning, I thought he was talking about me. I'm like, okay, one day I'm going to look in the mirror. I'm going to see the miracle. And I honest to God in the beginning, I thought he was talking about me. I'm like, okay, one day I'm gonna look in the mirror. I'm gonna see the miracle. So you believed in that from the get-go? No, not what I believed in is that I was the miracle. Wrong.

It was the newcomer that walked in at like 18 months and I witnessed it. Right. I witnessed their change. Seeing the lights go on and somebody else. Yeah. Right. That was the miracle. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you just got a big smile on your face. You're like your whole facial expression just changed. And that's how I know it's for real. You know? In all of the talks that you've given, all of the kids that you spent time with, like what have the kids taught you about how to communicate with young people

and how to understand them? I mean, there's a lot of parents, I suspect listening to this, who maybe have a kid who's having a hard time, maybe it's substances, maybe it's not, maybe it's something else, but like just being a teenager, no matter who you are and where you live is fucking hard. And I think a lot of parents, myself included,

it's like, how do I understand this young person? How do I connect with them? How do I get on their level? And you're almost like, what do they call it? Like, not a soothsayer, like you're like a whisperer, like a teen whisperer on some level. I mean, just to me, I look at it as I'm a vehicle, right? Like there's plenty of people that are gonna follow up

on my message that can deliver what they need, right? And that's why with Heron Project, years ago, we hired clinicians because I felt irresponsible walking into a school telling my story because there was nothing there on the backend. So now we have the backend. So when I walk into a school and I tell my story, those kids reach out, those kids will be helped. We'll deliver for those kids. So I'm just a small part of it. And I like like, and I like that. I like the fact that,

you know, I'm in that school for an hour and a half and I'm going to tell my story and I'm going to hopefully get, whether it's good or bad, get kids to walk out and tell a little bit of theirs. Did you ever imagine that your life could have so much impact? Like, it's crazy. It's a bit of theirs. Did you ever imagine that your life could have so much impact? Like it's crazy. It's so far beyond anything that you could have ever achieved even if your wildest dreams as a basketball player had come true. Like what you're doing now is so much more meaningful

and profound. It is. And I, but I, in full transparency, I gotta be careful with it. You know, like I've run hard for the last 14 years. I've run really hard. And getting up and sharing your story and talking to all these kids is not recovery.

No. You can delude yourself into thinking, well, all I do is recovery all day long. No, no, no, not even close. It's actually- It pulls you away from it. It's working at cross purposes. And I'm very open and honest.

And I tell people in my center that are currently living there, year 12 to 15 were the toughest years of my life. Why? Because I, I, I drifted away. I drifted away from the core. I isolate, I put, I isolated myself, you know, COVID, all of it. It just pulled me away from where I needed to be. And it was an extremely difficult three years. And when I celebrated 15 years the other day. Congrats, man. Yeah, no doubt. That's right, August 1, right? Yeah. I shared that, that 15 was a motherfucker to get there. It wasn't easy. And I had hip replacement surgery on July 8th. hip replacement surgery on June 8th, July 8th. And after hip replacement, I lost Bill Reynolds.

And I lost a man by like, he's on my arm. I got it way before he passed away. I lost Chucky Moniz. I lost the two men in my life that were willing to tie themselves to me during the storm. Like the two men who would, they would anchor to me in a heartbeat, no matter how high, how low, they were with me. And I came out of surgery and I was told that I lost them both two days apart. And I was told that I lost them both two days apart.

Oh, wow. And I'm laying in bed and I'm recovering from hip replacement. But I guess- You got access to drugs if you want it. I guess, yeah. But I guess the point is, for me, what recovery allowed me to see is God kept me still. Like hip surgery. Like I was in his hands. I was still, I couldn't run.

I couldn't do anything but face what I was facing. And it's a perspective that recovery. Has that allowed you to kind of reinvest in what you know works? Totally. And get back? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I went through that.

COVID was rough, man. I really struggled with the Zoom thing. And it's only recently that I've really tapped back into like my core group of guys. COVID was like the exact opposite of what I need. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, let me drag you out way into the woods

and try to find your way out of here. And my disease is telling me like, oh, isolation, I can do this. I actually like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? I was living saying, how come they didn't have COVID

when I was shooting heroin? You know what I mean? Like I would kill for COVID back then. Oh my God. Yeah. yeah. Right? I was living saying, how come they didn't have COVID when I was shooting heroin? You know what I mean? Like I would kill for COVID back then. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. I think it was not great for the recovery community.

I'm not, listen, 12 to 15 was a beast. One through 12, I walked right through it. 12 to 15 was a battle. Yeah. You know? How do you think about the languaging?

You know, I'd mentioned earlier, like you shy away from saying substance abuse. You like to call it substance use. And you're very conscious about word choice when it comes to how you talk about this condition. I am. I think it's necessary. I think it's kind of softened the stigma

that is attached to it. I don't like the word rock bottom. Why refer to probably your saddest moment in life as rock bottom? I just think we have to be better. I think we'd be- Well, I think behind that, at least for me, is the fact that we already hate it.

We already hate ourselves. We're already like our own worst critic. Yeah, exactly. So when, yeah, on top of that, a headline in the globe that says- What a shame. Yeah, what a shame or whatever. It's like, we're already ashamed of ourselves.

So you're just basically putting kerosene on that fire that says, what a shame or whatever. It's like, we're already ashamed of ourselves. Terrible. So you're just basically putting kerosene on that fire and amplifying the guilt and the shame and the fear and all of that. And a compassionate approach to treatment and recovery requires or could use a little bit more of empathetic languaging around it.

I think so. And I try very hard at it. I think it's necessary. I think, again, I don't think they could have the headline, what a shame today. I think if I found myself in a Dunkin' Donuts drive-through overdosed with a needle, I don't think the newspaper would say, what a shame.

And I think that shows you how far we've come in the last decade, two decades around substance use and addiction. You're out talking to professional coaches and athletes. What is the state of the union in terms of kind of recovery awareness in the professional leagues or on the college teams so that there's some kind of safety net or something in place for the kid like you who shows up and has a problem. The safety net is that they're bringing me in. Yeah.

But that's not enough. Yeah, there needs to be- Do you know what I mean? Like there's not a lot of alternative support in a sense when it comes to that type of stuff. Like I go to schools, very wealthy, successful division one football programs. And I'll sit down with a coach who's been there for seven, eight years, and he's never sent a kid to treatment. How is that possible?

How is that possible? He's got 120, 18 to 22 year old kids and you never sent one kid to treatment. And then there's other coaches and without even getting into it, because I don't, I would, I'd want permission. He's one of the best coaches to ever coach. And he's all about it. He's all about sending kids away.

He's one of the best coaches that will ever step on a football field. And to me, that's his greatest achievement that when his players are struggling, he sends them. Yeah, yeah. If you were in charge, if you were running the NCAA or you were the commissioner of the NFL or whatever, what kind of programs would you try to create?

Would just be a lot of awareness, right? A lot of like, I don't even think there's kids out there that understand what recovery is. You know, I think we show up to a college campus and it's like, here's the weight room, here's the locker room, here's the gym. But what about- There's the frat house and there's the bar. What about my mental health? How about when things get really low for me? Where do I go

then? Who's going to kind of catch me when I'm struggling? We don't do enough of that. I think we're getting better, but I think athletes have been looked at as race horses. We got four years of this kid in college and we'll see what happens. Right, and to even discuss or bring up the topic of mental health is to kind of imply weakness. And you're not here to be weak, you're here to be strong. So if you're struggling, keep it to yourself

and you know, buck up. But most people show up with mental health. Yeah, of course. Like who doesn't? Of course. You know what I mean? What kid isn't gonna show up to college campus and have some type of trauma,

something that he's gonna need help with. But we have to wait till rock bottom. Yeah, or something happens, the cops get involved. Yeah, that's when we react. Right. What's the advice that you give to the parent who comes to you and says, my kid's got something going on.

I don't know how to communicate with him or her. I don't know how to get this kid to pay attention and understand that he's headed in the wrong direction. I'm sure you get that question a lot. Let a professional step in. Let somebody step, like for instance, my dad, like I hate saying this, but he's drinking himself to death currently. My dad's dying from alcoholism

and he lives 10 minutes from me. And it's crazy because obviously he knows what you're doing and what you've done. Of course. And that just speaks to the insanity of the whole thing. I've never, listen, I've sent away through Heron Project and I say this very humbly, like thousands, I think 4,000 people in the last 10 years to treatment

through Heron Project, through my foundation. I can't help my dad. It's too close. It's too raw. It's too raw. It's too intense. Like I have to let others intervene and have a conversation with him. I can't do it.

As much as with everything I've been through, the experience I have, the wellness center, the foundation, I'm still a boy talking to my dad. Yeah. I have the wellness center, the foundation. I'm still a boy talking to my dad. Yeah. And it's really hard for parents also because you don't wanna be codependent. You wanna keep the channel of communication open,

but you don't wanna be a doormat either. Yeah. And it's very confusing. And I think a lot of parents, they're afraid to share their vulnerability. I think there's a lot of parents out there. Listen, kids email me all the time after I go to their school. And I think there's a lot of parents out there today acting like high school was the best time of their life. And their daughter is completely lost and clueless because she's not living up to that expectation. Like high school is really, really hard and it has been hard. And I think parents

don't want to share those vulnerable moments, you know, and just an example, like, so Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, I played against them. There's a guy named Richie Mellon who bullied me in sixth grade. I can tell you everything about Richie Mellon. What he wore to school some days, where he waited for me. I can't tell you anything about Michael Jordan, but I can tell you about Richie Mellon. That says a lot. And I think there's a lot of parents out there

that don't wanna share those moments, those losses with their children, which it could be an opportunity to identify. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I think that kind of vulnerability is always rewarded and appreciated.

Me too. There's so much talk about the opioid crisis and now increasing awareness around fentanyl and what's going on there, it's insane. But I don't think there's enough solid conversation around what's going on with marijuana and marijuana psychosis. It's almost as if marijuana has become so mainstream that there's this idea that it's benign at worse.

And as somebody who's on the front lines with all of these kids, like what, cause I know what I'm hearing and seeing. Like what are you hearing? It's the scariest thing I see in my center as a father, right? Like I have a 22 year old,

a 15 year old and a 25 year old. When a kid who shows up at my center with mom and dad holding their suitcases and he's in a psychosis, it rocks me to my core. It hits me in places that I don't normally get hit. And I've never seen it. that I don't normally get hit. And I've never seen it. I've been in psychosis, crystal meth and cocaine, but the marijuana psychosis that I've witnessed with kids and young adults is one of the scariest things. Marijuana and alcohol have gotten a hall pass.

Various things. You know, marijuana and alcohol have gotten a hall pass. You know, like fentanyl has become the headlines. And the truth is 70% of this country currently of people in treatment are in treatment for alcohol. But nobody says it. Yeah. You know, and now marijuana, like you said, benign. They framed it, they structured it, they marketed it, they sold it as benign.

Right. I mean, in Los Angeles, there's billboards for dispensaries everywhere. And the dispensaries look like Apple stores. So the messaging and the marketing, particularly to young people is, this is aspirational, right? This is nothing to be scared of

or to have any kind of trepidation about. And I can just tell you as somebody living here who's a parent to young people, it's so unbelievably accessible. Alcohol is far secondary to marijuana with young people. It has now taken over, right? It's like you said, it is alcohol secondary. I never thought that I would see the impact

I've seen around marijuana. I was uneducated on it, right? I almost thought it was benign, right? It gave me the munchies and made me eat, you know, like little paranoia when I was a kid. Today's marijuana is different than 1990. Yeah, it's because it's so potent now, I assume. Yeah, yeah, it's potent.

And it just breaks my heart from a, again, and I'm very careful with this, right? Although I've dedicated my life around parts of recovery, I'm also in the room, right? And I'm one of. So I tend to stay away from that little expert seat and stay in the middle of the pack. And it hits me on a level

that I haven't been hit on in a long time when I see kids coming into my center with marijuana psychosis. So what does that look like? A little schizophrenia, outbursts, complete isolation and going inward. It comes out in different forms, right?

But the scary thing is you don't know when it's going to clear. You know, like a doctor can't walk up to you and say, your daughter's psychosis will be done in 12 days. You just don't know. We've had young adults come into our center that stayed six to nine months and still struggle. And then we've had young adults that came in and after a month you saw improvement.

You can't call it. What is it that you're doing in your centers, in your treatment facilities, your wellness centers, that maybe is a little bit different than what one might find at a typical treatment center? When I opened it six years ago, I said, I'm gonna offer as much as I can. Right. So I didn't go to a center like mine. There was kind of the narrative, like you got

to go to a place that's hard in order to get it, you know, and I didn't want to live there. Um, so very holistic nutrition, sleep, yoga, guided meditation, breath work, personal trainer. You get all of that at my school. Right, like all, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not just cigarettes sitting around a circle. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I couldn't live with myself. You know what I mean?

Like I couldn't be that guy. You can make a lot more money being that guy in the business. Yeah. Like if I just threw a bunch of big books and throw out cigarettes and said, come back, come back here in an hour, it'd be a lot different. But people find peace in so many other places. And again, like why don't people track sleep in early recovery, right?

Like let's kind of gauge when you're gonna be at your best the next day. You know, like maybe you only slept four hours. Maybe that's not the best time to go sit down with your life coach, your therapist. Why don't you take a couple of hours, get some rest and we'll revisit this later. You know what I mean?

Like we can be much more dialed in. Yeah. You know? I think there's so much room for improvement. Oh, gosh. In this space. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was lucky enough to go to a great treatment center

and I was there for a hundred days and saved my life. And I just, you know, I can't say enough good things about it, but I know there's a lot of bullshit in this industry. You know, it's heartwarming to's heartwarming to sit across from somebody who's doing it right and is thinking about how to really serve because there's a lot of, I don't even wanna call them treatment centers.

So we're living houses, et cetera. They're like hedge fund guys, real estate plays, renting mansions. That's what it is. And they can rent out those bedrooms for a multiple on whatever the mortgage is. And they're just churning cash and has nothing to do with helping people get better. And that's someone else's story, right?

Like for me, I go so far into it that I track obviously the length of stay, male or female, average age. I track, I have data on which life coach in my center is best with young adults, women, men, you know, under 30, over 30. So if someone comes into my center and she's 45 years old and she's a mom, I'm putting her in a specific room with a woman who's like 42% with women her age. I'm identifying that before. You have a small window of time with this. It's like 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. You don't have a lot of time. They're going through detox. They're going through withdrawal. They're not sleeping at night. They're struggling

with their nutrition. They don't have enough energy. So I wanted to kind of come in from every angle I possibly could at my center. And at the end of the day, I'm very proud of it. And at the end of the day, I'm very proud of it. But it's also the community that you create, right? Like that's what kind of keeps you sober. Yeah, of course, of course. Do you have any read on what distinguishes the person who makes it from the person who can't? Because this is the baffling question of all time, right?

Like I've been in rooms with people thinking that guy's never gonna make it. And that person becomes like just a pillar of sobriety and vice versa. I'll tell you this, time matters. Like success in long-term sobriety, the length of stay within your center is a complete, it can't be denied.

You know, the amount of people who celebrated one year, two year, three year, four year, five years at my center that stayed 30 days or less is minimal. Right. The ones who stayed 90 days or more, I mean, we have a whole squad. Yeah, I can remember. have a whole squad. Yeah. I can remember. I've never understood the 28 day, 30 day thing. I just don't think that you can,

you can really make a change in that. When I was in treatment at 30 days, I was barely awake. Who's the asshole that came up with it? I don't know. I don't know where that came from. Five day detox, 28 day program, 90 day outpatient program. Like who came up with this? You know, like there's people who were detoxing for a month and a half and you're only giving them five days on your health insurance. Like there's people that come to my center and 40 days into it, they're still struggling, you know, but they're not considered medically in detox at that time. And the truth is at my center, we meet the real person on like day 25. Like seriously, like no bullshit.

I got four days. I'm like, I know three weeks of you, but we got to throw that out. Now I know who you really are. Let's start over, you know, and introduce yourself. That's when people start trusting, you know, three weeks, three and a half weeks in they start feeling a little better about themselves

and they trust and they're going to start being open and transparent and vulnerable and that's where the work begins right that's where it begins yes but 28 days they're out four days later meanwhile you know

we need a lot of reformation in terms of how insurance works with this, access to legitimate treatment inpatient care. All of these things need to be modernized and updated to get with what's actually happening. I mean, I'm proud of it. Yeah, you should be. I'm super proud of it.

And I'm a man in recovery and who spent a lot of his life in the last 15 years of my life around recovery. And it's my greatest accomplishment, Heron Wellness, Heron Project, Heron Talks. I'm extremely proud the way we have all carried ourselves, meaning the runners in Heron Project, the students who I spoke in front of, and the people who trusted me at Heron Wellness. Like that's fucking big time. Like when a mom and dad,

like I see a mom and dad coming in from Colorado and I'm like, they're opening up their trunk and they're grabbing suitcases and they're coming to me. Yeah. Like you just flew four hours to drop your daughter off at my place. Yeah. You're the guy on the pay phone in front of Jack in the Box.

That's fucking big time, man. That's big time. Yeah. You know, and that's, I never lost sight of that. I never lost sight of what a complete honor that I've been given by servicing. I never lost sight of what a complete honor that I've been given by servicing. Right, but I see somebody who relishes and embraces that responsibility,

which is a huge responsibility in comparison to the responsibility when you were young, which was ego driven of like acquitting yourself on a basketball court because you lived in a town that wanted you to do that. I mean, these are totally different things. That one, I mean, obviously you were young and you didn't have tools, et cetera,

but all that did was create fear. And now you have this responsibility that's much greater and graver. Literally people are putting their lives in your hands. Wild. And you're like fired up. Yeah, fucking right. Yeah.

Like I can't paint the picture or tell it any better. Like there's a mom and a dad in the parking lot pulling out a suitcase to come live at my place. Like what a fucking honor, man. Like what a responsibility, what a duty, you know? And I'm extremely proud of that. Like we've created something really special there. And you know, we hope people stay long-term,

they become part of the community and we do everything. I do everything in my power to service them while they're there. Yeah. You know? How does this work as a parent? You have three kids and none of them drink or use, right? Nope.

And never have. No. Which is wild. Yeah. Yeah. How did you accomplish that? I don't know. I think it's their accomplishment.

You know, that's their, it's their story. You know, Interesting is that although they've never drank or used, I see some of my behavior in them, right? But that should make you even more impressed. Yeah, no. You know what I mean? Yeah, but there's parts of them,

especially Christopher and Samantha, they were nine and seven. They saw nine and seven years of a horrible side of me, you know, very reactionary and aggressive and constantly in flight, pushing everybody away. And that comes out in them once in a while. And that comes out in them once in a while. And I was in the kitchen like a year ago. And my little guy reacted to something. And I was like, fuck.

There it is. That's me. And he sat down and I walked up to him. And I put my forehead on his forehead. And I said, sorry. And then I realized that's the first time I've said sorry to Christopher that way. I'm coming up on 15 years sober at the time. And I haven't made an amends like that.

We cried like for 30 minutes. My wife who is a crier, like she just sat back in the kitchen and watched us and was like, what the hell is going on right now? All that emotion guttural like came out of us. But I said, sorry. And it was, I think what he needed and what I needed. Which is pretty fucking cool.

Yeah. So honesty, open communication, vulnerability, owning up to your mistakes as a parent. Yeah. I mean, it's superpowers really. Yeah. Right. They've been able to witness for themselves what recovery has done. For my life, for their life, for our family, they've had a front row seat.

And it scares me because they have not done drugs or gotten drunk. not done drugs or gotten drunk. Cause I feel like, I hope I didn't scare them away from it. You know? Like, and I say that like, I hope it was attraction, not promotion. Right.

I hope they say, wow, dad, sober. Like that's dope. That's fucking cool. But in honesty, it's probably a little of both. Totally, let's hope. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, no doubt. I'll take both. And if at some point down the line,

they dabble with it or whatever, the longer they wait, the better chance they are of being, like not having that kind of like addictive response because their brains are more developed. Well, back to the brain, yeah. 25, 26 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, you're kind of back to the X. Yeah, yeah. I'm meeting them right there. You're at the same emotional age right now. So you guys should just be like a house on fire. Yeah, no shit. Oh man. There's something so, you had said earlier,

like I don't, like you still struggle with some regret and some guilt around your behavior and the graveness with which you take sobriety, but there is something about levity in the rooms that I think is beautiful. And it's just incredible to sit and witness somebody get up and tell their story and just own every aspect of it, every embarrassing, sort of shame inducing corner

of what they experienced and doing it in service to other people so that we feel less alone. And I think that takes a lot of courage and a lot of vulnerability. And when I started this podcast, I mean, I've been so impacted by that, that I wanted to bring that sensibility to this for everyday people,

because I believe storytelling is such a powerful connector. And I think we learn through stories. Like you can say, don't do this, do this, and here are the reasons or whatever. But when you're on the receiving end of an incredible story well told, that will take up residence in you and linger

and remain with you and influence you in ways that you may not even imagine. And I think you're very gifted at that. And I know that, you know, kind of in more recent years, you're like, I'm getting sick of telling my story or whatever, bored of myself or whatever. But I think that you have to remember, like, there's a lot of people out there who haven't heard it yet, you know, and it is so powerful. Yeah. And I walked in here today and I said, Totally. You know, and it is so powerful.

Yeah. And I walked in here today and I said, you know, like, I said, how incredibly blessed is he to have people come in and just open up to you? You know, like you said, take up residency. Like it's amazing. The people that you've met just doing this and the people that I've connected with in the past 15 years. connected with in the past 15 years.

My story will always be hard. Like if I'm comfortable telling it, get me the fuck out of the room. Like if I'm that guy, then like people ask me, am I nervous? I'm nervous 24 seven, to be honest with you.

I'm on the edge of my seat right now. I'm speaking tomorrow and I'll be pacing before I walk out in front of a small crowd, right? If I'm not nervous, like get me, take care of me because I'm not as healthy as I'm presenting to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I would have thought you would have had more peace with it

because you share it so much. Not yet. Yeah. It's still haunting you quite a bit. It is in a good way though, right? Like I think, and again, 15 years, like it's the echoes, right? Like I'm telling it and I'm worried about my children,

you know, and the impact it has on them. Yeah. It was very, like, it was very hard in the beginning. Like I would walk into a high school and speak and my son was in high school. I mean, the amount of little hate, little messages he gotten on Instagram because his daddy, the drug addict was at this school.

Like it was painful. You know, we had some major moments as a family, like, is it worth it for us? You know, hurt people, hurt people, you know, and they, they went at my children for my story. I didn't know that. Yeah. So, so there's been a, there's, there's been a lot of sacrifice on both ends. Yeah. I would imagine it's a little different now because when you started speaking, you only had a couple of years of sobriety at that point. Right? Like you hit that hard early.

Most of my presentations are the first day. That's what pretty primarily, right? There's probably 220 a year and the majority is the first day. I probably tell my story 20 times a year where it used to be the opposite. Yeah. You know, but again, at a certain point,

I started feeling too scripted. Like you gotta start checking yourself. Yeah, that's not good. No. Like in my two fucking, in my two scripted. And then you're like, did it happen that way? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just bullshit.

It's weird. I know. I've had that experience. Yeah, it's not a great feeling. And that makes you not wanna share your story or to really deconstruct the whole thing. Because you're like, I've said it so many times. Is that what happened?

Or is it because I keep saying that that I've convinced myself that that's the way that thing happened? And you say it so many times, it's tough to connect to. Yeah. Like you keep going to it and you got to latch onto it. Right. So then you get into self-preservation and it's like, stay away from that because you're exhausted. You know, like now you've, you've, you've gone across the boundary of you, you're exhausting yourself. You're hurting yourself therapeutically by saying this stuff so much.

So you try to kind of get some separation in it. And then it's, I mean, it's tough to manage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I feel you. But it's beautiful. I mean, I can't imagine doing that much public speaking. I can only do it a couple of times a year. Yeah.

That's it. Well, we should round this out, I can only do it a couple of times a year. Yeah. That's it. Well, we should round this out, but I wanna end it with a word about, a word towards the person who's out there who's still suffering. Maybe somebody is listening to this, they're confronting their own behavior for the first time.

Maybe they're snapping out of their denial. Maybe they're wondering whether they have a problem or not and maybe need to look at it. What is the message you wanna leave people with before we end this thing? Again, you just, you gave me a snapshot of about 15 different- I know, sorry, I tend to do that.

15 different people. I was like, I'm gonna ask this one question and then I complicate it. No, no. I think the freedom, the freedom to look within, the freedom to take a chance on yourself to find a different version of you.

Again, recovery is the greatest accomplishment of my life. It has nothing to do with the Boston Celtics. If you walk in my house, honest to God, you will not, you'll walk through my home and you will not see one thing about basketball. I do not have one uniform, one picture, one ring, one article in my home. So anybody who walks into my home doesn't say like, oh, there's a basketball player who used to live here. But you'll go to my sink

and there'll be my 15 year chip sitting there on the counter. You'll go to the coffee stand and they'll see something with recovery. You'll know that before you'll know basketball. And I'm just proud of it, right? I'm, I'm, I'm super proud of it. And never in a million years did I think on June 4th, 2008, when I was walking out of that hospital, life is going to get good. Life is going to get real good. And life got good. There's always hope. Totally.

Yeah. You did the work, man. You know, I love it. Thank you. You're a gift, dude. It's super inspiring to talk to you. I love hearing your story, but also really appreciate the humility

that you bring to the whole experience. Thank you. And at times discomfort sharing some of that stuff. I could sense that, but I think it's really powerful. And you're a beacon of hope for so many people. And there's a lot of people suffering out there right now. So we need more guys like you. I'm blessed to be a beacon, right?

You are, you are. And you wear it well. You look good, Matt. Thank you, brother. At your service, if there's anything I can do to be a beacon, right? You are. So. You are. And you wear it well. You look good, man. Thank you, brother. At your service, if there's anything I can do to help you. Awesome. Same. Yeah, man.

I'd love to stay in touch too. Love you. Awesome. Cheers. Thank you. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening.

I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voices of Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And

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