The Rich Roll Podcast - Alex Honnold: The Free Soul of Free Solo Climbing On Fear, Risk, Mindset & What It Means To Be Truly Alive

Episode Date: March 5, 2018

Last week I asked you to imagine being attacked by a 9-foot bull shark. This week I invite you to envision climbing the storied 3,600-foot sheer vertical rock face known as El Capitan. The trick? You have to do it without any ropes, harnesses or any protective gear whatsoever. An astonishing prospect, even the tiniest mistake or unexpected intervening variable could cost you your life — a life that hinges moment to moment upon punctilious preparation, meticulous focus, and a preternatural relationship with fear. This is one small aspect of the life of Alex Honnold, a renown professional adventure rock climber whose audacious free-solo ascents of America’s biggest cliffs have made him one of the most masterful and compelling athletes of our generation. An global icon of athletic mastery, the lore of Alex Honnold transcends sport. I imagine many of you have viewed — with palms sweaty and jaw agape — at least one of his many stunning climbing videos. Perhaps you saw him profiled on 60 Minutes, or read profiles about him in the New York Times, National Geographic or Outside and, like me, were left to wonder: How is that even possible? How does that guy do what he does? And more importantly, why? The answer isn’t as elementary as you might imagine. It can't be reduced to simple genetics, strength, drive, or even his most unusual relationship with fear. I think the answer is far more complex and frankly, much much more interesting. Of course, fanatical preparation plays a role. As does his fidelity to incremental progression. His unique kinship with risk is certainly a central factor. But I think what truly sets Alex apart is a profound sense of awe and wonder. An uncanny facility to meld his body and mind with spirit. And the ability to become absolutely one with his quest. Inarguably, what Alex does is both staggering and astonishing. But it's who he is, how he lives, and what he stands for that I find most impressive. Today, we explore all of it. This conversation is everything I wanted it to be. It's about adventure, fear, risk, curiosity, focus, mindset, preparation and the primacy of incremental progression. Over the course of almost two hours we cover his boundary-crushing El Cap solo free climb and his most recent expedition to Antarctica. We discuss his passion for environmental conservation and the benefits of his minimalist lifestyle. And of course we explore his training routines and mostly-vegan diet. But most of all, this is a conversation that not only examines the how behind Alex's feats, but the why behind his pursuits. Thoughtful, deliberate and present, I also found Alex to be quite generous, incredibly curious, and whip smart. For the visually inclined, you can watch watch (& subscribe!) to the podcast on YouTube: http://bit.ly/richandalex I'm grateful for this exchange and I sincerely hope you enjoy it. Peace + Plants, Rich

Quick announcement before we get into it. I am very excited to announce that Julie and I have a brand new cookbook coming out April 24th. It's called The Plant Power Way Italia. We're very proud of it. If you enjoyed our first book, The Plant Power Way, I think you're going to freak for this one. It's inspired by our retreats in Tuscany and the cuisine of the Italian countryside. It's super next level, incredible photography, 125 entirely new, and of course, delicious plant-based Italian countryside. It's super next level, incredible photography, 125 entirely new, and of course, delicious plant-based Italian recipes. And it's available for pre-order now

from all your favorite online booksellers. You can learn more at richroll.com. Pre-orders are very important to the book's viability. And so it would mean a great deal to us if you reserved your copy today. Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate it. And now on to the show. To me, the big moments were sort of identifying that this is something that is important enough to my life that I'm willing to do the work.

And then the moment where I'd realized that I had done all the work that I needed to do, which is sort of a different way of looking at, I'm now ready to do this. Instead of looking at, I was like, I'm ready to climb El Cap. It's actually more of, I have done the work that I need to do, which is sort of a different way of looking at I'm now ready to do this. Instead of looking at it like I'm ready to climb El Cap, it's actually more of I have done the work that I needed. And therefore, you know, being able to do it like naturally follows. Think that people should just think about what is the thing that's worth it to you. And then what is the work that you need to put into that? That's Alex Honnold. And this is the Retroll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

So last week, I asked you to imagine being attacked by a nine-foot bull shark. And this week, I want to ask you to entertain something else altogether. I want you to think about, imagine becoming the first person to free solo El Capitan. That means climbing a 7,500-foot sheer vertical rock face without any ropes, any harnesses, or any protective gear whatsoever. Nothing but your grip, your skill, your merging with nature, an astonishing feat where even the tiniest mistake or unforeseen intervening variable, for that matter, could cost you your life. This is but one small aspect of the amazing life of Alex Honnold, a renowned professional rock climber whose audacious free solo ascents of America's biggest cliffs have made him, in my opinion, one of, if not the most compelling and masterful athletes of our generation.

Now, I would imagine most of you listening are already intimately familiar with Alex, perhaps like me. You've watched with sweaty palms and jaw agape one of his many stunning climbing videos. Perhaps you've seen him on 60 Minutes or read profiles about him in the New York Times, National Geographic, or Outside Magazine. And we're left wondering, how is that possible? How does that guy do what he does? And I think the answer isn't as elementary as you might imagine. I really don't think it can be reduced to genetics or strength or technical ability

or even just his ability to confront fear in a unique way. I think that the answer is far more complex and much, much more interesting. I think it's the confluence of many factors, diligent preparation, of course, a fidelity to incremental progression, which is sort of a benchmark, a hallmark of how he prepares and trains a unique relationship with risk. Yes. A unique relationship with risk, yes, but mostly I think it's about this union of mind and spirit. I think it's about his extraordinary mindfulness, his acumen for presence, this minimalist approach to life that allows him to deeply immerse himself in his pursuits and the facility that he has for focus and calm and almost oneness with his surroundings.

And I think it's all of these things and many more things that really set him apart. This is an amazing conversation. I've got a couple more thoughts I want to share about Alex and what's to come. But before we get into it... We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how

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treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Alex Honnold. So Alex is somebody I've deeply admired for a very long time,

somebody I've wanted to have on the show since day one, and I can tell you that this conversation does not disappoint. In addition to discussing his LCAP experience and his recent expedition to Antarctica, which we get into, we discuss his routines, his training, his diet. You might be surprised to find out he's primarily vegan and how he contextualizes what he does. And I think that this exchange is everything you want it to be. It's about adventure, fear, risk, curiosity, focus, preparation. It's about mindset. And it's about the advantages of living minimally.

But it's not just the how behind what Alex does. It's also about the why behind his pursuits. I found Alex to be incredibly thoughtful, deliberate, present, not surprising, I suppose, forthcoming, curious, generous, and smart, really, really smart. So let's talk to him. Do it, man. How you doing? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? Cool. Thanks for making the trip out here, man. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat a bit. It's been a long time in the making. I we first got connected through noah lang at stride yeah right exactly in 2011 or 12 or something or 2013 yeah it's been a long time right and you did like you did that you climbed like a

like a building in san francisco right yeah they took me on a on an urban soloing tour of san francisco right that's pretty cool man yeah and then it was actually it's it's rare that a sponsor takes you on a tour of so long in a city i was like i was like is any of this legal or do we have permits for anything and they were like no it'll be fine yeah cool have you done have you have you been filmed climbing buildings before or is that the only time i had a little bit climb buildings but i actually haven't climbed that many buildings but there there was almost a big tv special where i was going to climb Taipei 101 in Taipei. I think at the time it was the fifth tallest building in the world.

And so as part of that, I did a bunch of practice climbing on buildings. So I've done a bunch of stuff around Boulder and Denver. Right. It's pretty fun. But no, I've never climbed that many buildings. Right. It's interesting. Actually, though, if anybody ever hears this, I still really want to climb Taipei 101.

The TV project fell apart. And so then the building doesn't really want you to climb it without it without there being a reason. Right. So I never had the opportunity to climb it, even though I rehearsed it and I'm totally ready. And so if anybody wants to. All the producers that are listening. I'm ready to climb Taipei 101 at the drop of a hat. Has anybody done that?

No, no. Well, so a French guy, Alain Robert, climbed it with ropes as part of the inauguration of the building or something like that, some kind of event. But I'm ready to go climb it anytime. Free solo. Yeah, by myself. It's awesome. It's an amazing building. It's really ornamental.

It's overhanging on sides. It's really cool. I would imagine with a project like that, the wind becomes a huge deal, right? It's funny. Everybody thinks that but um i don't know i've never i mean there's certainly no worse wind on a building than there is on big cliffs and certainly far less wind than there are in the real mountains like in patagonia probably a little bit more predictable right because the the sort of geometry of the building

is you know what to expect yeah actually i don actually, I don't know. I would actually hypothesize that a building like Taipei one-on-one would be less affected by the wind in a way because it's, um, it dominates Taipei. It's so much bigger than the rest of the city. So you're just way above everything else. Whereas, um, in somewhere like New York city, you might get buffeted by all kinds of crazy winds coming in the corridor. You're in corridors, but if you're on something that's three times taller than everything else, then it's like, you're just, you know, it's like being on a mountain. You're just, whatever the weather is, is yeah you're in corridors but if you're on something that's three times taller and everything else then it's like you're just you know it's like being on a mountain you're just whatever the weather is is what you're getting right cool so you just uh you just came from

new york did a little bit of a press thing in the wake of this antarctic trip yeah so let's can we talk about that yeah for sure for sure i mean unbelievable right this was pretty cool trip it's pretty cool. Maybe just describe it for people that are listening who aren't familiar with what you just accomplished. Well, I mean, I don't know if I accomplished anything. But it was a North Face expedition to Antarctica. And so there were six of us who were climbers on the team. And then there was a seventh filmmaker.

And we basically just went to this area in Queen Maud Land, which is one of the sectors of Antarctica, explored by the norwegians and so we went to this area that's the norwegian word for the the wolf's jaw it's like a basically serrated teeth in the shape of a jaw it's like a big u-shape of mountains it looks like a wolf's jaw it's crazy especially from the air it looks like a wolf jar and from what i understand it wasn't even discovered until like the 90s um no it wasn't it wasn't climbed on until the 90s um so the whole area had been mapped through aerial photography and actually randomly i think the nazis that dropped little leaflety things to claim it as a part of germany in the 1930s or 40s but um uh but yeah the peaks weren't actually climbed until the 90s wow that's amazing it's really

difficult to get there i mean yeah i mean i would think like with a project like that it's the logistics have to be insane and not just complicated and difficult but also very expensive and so it sort of requires a sponsor like the north face or the people that went there the first in the 90s were a norwegian it was like a norwegian national pride it was like a very big expedition right norway so it's you conrad anchor yeah jimmy chan jimmy chan cedar and then savannah cummins and anna fa were both also Mountaineers. I saw some of the footage that they aired during the CBS thing that you guys did. And I was like, it's so epic to see it.

But I'm like, how are you, like, here's one of the questions I have. Just in general with all of these things that you do, like, there's always somebody filming, whether it's Jimmy Chin or somebody else. Like there's always somebody filming, whether it's Jimmy Chin or somebody else. And half the time, like Cedar, there's a lot of footage of him holding the camera. Like how do you do what you're trying to do and have to pay attention to like documenting the thing? I mean, that's a big question. But so one of the really nice things about filming with Cedar is that the filming feels exactly like it would with a friend. Like you're just out doing your normal thing. is that the filming feels exactly like it would with a friend like you're just out doing your normal thing and whenever you can you just pull the camera out and like exactly how you would

shoot selfies of each other if you were just um basically i documented i shot a lot of video on my iphone so that there would be material of cedar climbing because he he had a real camera i mean still small that he kept in his jacket but um but basically we just film each other we just have a good time right anytime i'm taking my camera out to get a panorama so i can show my girlfriend or something because I was taking Photos from every summit cuz they're like we're in this crazy place It's a one once in a lifetime trip like I want to go home and show my family cuz the school So every time you take your camera out you also just shoot a little like oh here

We are we're having this nice experience right, but I'm so then cedar I mean his style of filmmaking is to turn that into a movie that's actually watchable And so who's handling like the drone photography? So that was the seventh guy, this guy, Pablo Durana. He's a filmmaker from California, the Bay Area. But he is the world's most interesting man. He's amazing. He was on an expedition with me in Angola.

And then I sort of recommended him for this trip. And then Cedar hired him as the cameraman for this trip. But he was like a collegiate runner.'s fit as he's very very fit you can swear yeah am i allowed to curse on this show you can swear yeah he's uh he's very fit um you know like four minute mile type of fit and then but also climbs 513 which is like a very difficult level of climbing and um so we would all be out doing our thing climbing mountains and then you see pablo like skiing by with a 60 pound sled with a bunch of big drones to go shoot and you're just like pablo was sleeping with all the batteries in his sleeping bag, like on his

chest basically. So to keep the laptops from freezing at night and then to keep all the drone batteries and very camera batteries. So he was sleeping with all the batteries in his sleeping bag and then he'd wake up every three hours to move the solar panels around his tent. Cause, um, you know, cause there's 24 hours of sunlight, but you still have to, the sun's still moving. So you have to, but, um, so yeah, basically Pablo never slept a full night and just toiled every, he's, he's an amazing, it was amazing. Wow. It's like a different level of fitness and he's so motivated and kind. He's just like having a great time. So, so you guys all get to, um, Cape town, right. And you got hung up for a little while because of weather trying to get, you know,

find your way to Antarctica,ctica right yeah so when we got to there'd been a big storm and there had been a meter of fresh snow on an on a three mile long runway i think it is of ice because you're landing on a sheet of ice so basically they have to clear this enormous sheet of ice um and that's to land at the logistical base and then from there we took a smaller plane to the actual base camp on a in the glacier like in the wolf's jaw was that the like really rickety old plane i read something about like some ancient plane that you take uh that might have been on the first expedition um because conrad had been there before a long time ago i think um when he went with alex low yeah exactly yeah i think our trip had our planes were up to

code i was it all felt safe so you land on or no, maybe actually, maybe what you read about was when we landed at the logistic base, the flight from Cape Town to Antarctica, the flight there was on this Russian cargo jet. So we were sitting on wooden benches with exposed wiring all around and all the cargo is just held down by nets. And it was pretty amazing. And that's probably like a fairly long flight, right? Yeah, six hours. Oh, my God. But somehow it's funny because when you fly six hours across the states you're like oh this is such a long flight but when you're flying six hours to antarctica you're just

like kind of giddy and excited i mean you know you're going right it was pretty cool so you land on ice and then how do you get to like the wolf's jaw so then we took a twin otter like a little small plane like propeller plane and that has skis on it and it can kind of land wherever and so that uh just dropped us off on the glacier. Right. And so the idea is you're going to summit these six peaks and do it in 10 days? Yeah, I don't know. I think CBS ran something about six peaks, but there are actually tons of peaks there. I climbed 14 different summits that I counted while I was there.

Some of them were pretty insignificant, but a bunch of them were really cool. And yeah, and there was no plan. We just showed up there expecting to climb as much as we could right and so you just set up like a base camp i mean i saw the huge like yellow two meter dome with it looked like you had to dig like you know dig holes for that right yeah well the cook tent is a big dome that sits but then you dig in to make the kitchen which is awesome because then you can make the counters whatever height you want you make the seats whatever height you know you tuck the cooler into the counters.

It's all, like, built in. I mean, it's like sculpture. It's pretty fun to create your kitchen the way you want it. Uh-huh. How long does that take to, like, I mean, once you get there, and then you got to, like, well, I guess it's daylight 24 hours. Yeah, it's daylight 24 hours. And when we landed, we probably spent the next five or six hours digging,

just, like, setting up our tents, digging holes, like, digging the latrine, things like that, you know, setting up our situation so that things are sheltered from the wind and also like settled in enough that nothing's going to disappear. Right. Um, but I mean, in the grand scheme of things, five hours to set up a camp that you're going to live in for several weeks is really not that hard. So how long were you down there in total? Uh, the whole expedition, I think it was six weeks with flying to Cape town and waiting in Cape town. But so we, we waited five days in Cape town and then we waited maybe five days in the logistics space.

Um, Novo, this Russian air base. And then, so the time on the glacier interactual camp was only 17 days or something, but it was supposed to be closer to a month, I think. Um,

but then realistically we climbed, I climbed enough, you know, I was like, this is perfect. And then they actually flew us out slightly early just because the way the weather was. But, um, Conradimmy had finished their objective and cedar and i had climbed everything we wanted to do and right um we were all just like it's time to go

home and conrad had been there before but for you guys you're sort of it's uncharted territory like you know one of the things i know that you you're you're pretty meticulous about is you know really mapping what you're going to do and all the preparation that goes into these routes but this is a different kind of climbing that's that's for big free solos and stuff um i mean i love the adventurous climbing where you just walk out look at a mountain and choose what looks like the easiest way and just have an experience on it i mean i i enjoy that as well but um but certainly for the big free solos the type of climbing that i'm maybe more well known for um that's more about the planning and the preparation, but, um, but Antarctica was cool. I mean, I hadn't, I've never had an experience like that because like, it feels like you're in space and you're climbing with like ski

boots and gloves on, you know, it's a whole different thing. I only climbed, I think of everyone on the team, I was maybe the only person that climbed in ski boots a couple of times. And that was just because, um, the climbing was relatively easy for me i wanted to keep my feet warm i was just like i want to be comfortable right but um for the most part we would ski to the base and then we would change into rock shoes and then climb the rock and climbing shoes but really big ones with big socks and everything and then you'd kind of climb barehanded if you had to but keep gloves on if you could if it was easy enough right and then honestly the difficult part was getting back down off everything because there are no established anchors nobody's climbed anything

before so there's no there's no way down right so once you get to the top you then have to just use the equipment that you have to create anchors to slowly repel back down the mountain and how many of the the climbs were you just inventing new routes versus sort of tracking what somebody else had done oh wow uh-huh um there was one route the last route that we climbed which is on i think the second tallest formation in the region uh we did the first free ascent and the second is maybe second or third ascent total of this norwegian route that they'd put up in the 90s and um so that one had a bunch of ropes left on it and stuff like left over from from their expedition because they'd kind of like escaped in a storm and left some ropes on it but for us we're like oh signs of human passage this

is so nice you know because after a couple weeks of just doing everything totally virgin you know it was nice to see some some signs of passage and know that you're on the right track and that someone else has done it what was the hardest part of the whole thing for me the hard part was constantly thinking you're gonna die honestly yeah um yeah it's funny because it's been a month and a little over a month since i got home and that sort of fear is starting to fade and you just look back and you're like oh it's such a good trip we had this great time but every day like while i was there each day it was like pretty stressful because we're making so many little decisions that you think is the right decision

it's probably the right call but like if you just fell and died and wanted you know there were a lot of times where if cedar and i had just wound up dead at the base of the wall people would just be like well that's what happens when you're rappelling in big big mountains like that that nobody's ever been on like stuff happens right i don't know well this conversation around fear and death i mean this is this comes up i mean it's impossible for anybody to have a conversation with you without that i mean this is this comes up i mean it's impossible for anybody to have a conversation with you without that i mean you get annoyed you get tired of like talking about it no i think people i think people should think about that stuff more i mean when was last time the average person thought about the mortality and really made choices that could

lead to death i mean my other than lifestyle choices like eating a twinkie or whatever right those are so far removed that you don't get that immediate like sense of dread. Yeah. Like, oh my God, I'm so afraid. If I eat this, I'm going to die in 40 years from heart disease. You know, it's like a different. Right. I don't know.

Well, I think that most of us live our lives in a waking dream. And we expend a tremendous amount of energy trying to pretend we're not going to die or denying the inevitable. I think that's such a and in certain ways you have a healthier perspective on it because you're so connected with that reality actually you said uh i was just in new york for the cbs morning show thing and gail gail king i guess like big tv uh i i never met her obviously but she came out she was one of the hosts of this morning show and she was like oh you guys survived this experience like didn't you think you're gonna die and I was like whoa I mean we're all gonna die like I mean you're gonna right you know we're each gonna die here it

doesn't necessarily matter and it was like oh the conversations are really dark that wasn't what she wanted to hear it was just funny I was like I wonder when last time Gail was really thinking about her mortality you know when last time Gail was like oh I could die right now you know and I was like huh I guess people I mean particularly if you're living in a city like that you just don't think about like death that much well i think our culture is set up to to encourage us to not think about it as well you know we're sort of you think yeah i think we're we're encouraged to seek security and you know lead these safe lives and protect ourselves and when the subject of death comes up it's uncomfortable it makes people uncomfortable we don't know i don't see

why because it's one of those things that shouldn't be uncomfortable because we're all going to die you know it's like going to the bathroom or something it's like we all go to the bathroom a bunch of times a day it's like it's part of being an animal like this is but we try to remove it from our consciousness and awareness like i've only seen one dead person in my entire life when Julie's father passed away. We happen to be there. But beyond that, I've never, I'm like, everybody dies, but I've never seen a dead person. Why is that? Like, and it made me think about that in a way that I hadn't before.

And I think it's because it's just, it's not part of polite culture, right? Like we're not, we're not comfortable talking about it we want to remove it from our awareness as soon as it happens like let's get it out of our consciousness or you think our line of sight i don't know i i don't totally feel that way but i mean i guess yeah that might be true for yeah it might be true for society in general but so i mean if we're if we're going dark um i mean pretty heavy so before the Antarctic trip, it's been a really grim year for rock climbing. There are like a lot of big accidents and fatalities and just terrible things have happened in climbing this year. It's been, it's been pretty hard, like several friends and, um, I don't know, it's just been rough. But so

my girlfriend was pretty unexcited about me going to Antarctica just cause it's, you know, fundamentally a dangerous trip. No, I mean, it's, it's just, I mean, you're out there, you know, like there is risk involved for sure sure because you're alpine climbing in the middle of nowhere and so like there is definitely risk and she was like a little worried it'd been a hard year and then the day before i was going to leave we were sport climbing in red rock and we like there was this terrible accident this guy died like right next to us and um and actually it was my first time in climbing seeing seeing a fat like that. I mean, I've been around a lot of accidents, and I've certainly known a lot of people that have had things happen like that.

But I've never just, like, seen somebody. You know, we came around the corner, and there were people doing CPR on this poor guy that, I mean, he looked dead. And, yeah, well, I think he was basically just dead from the beginning, but they did CPR on him for half an hour until paramedics got there, and the fireman was like, this guy's dead. And then so they stopped. Right.

So how do you process that? Like, did that make you think about things differently? I mean, you've lost a lot of friends. Yeah. Yeah. Though, I mean, you always justify in different ways. And the thing is, I mean, I guess for me, I think I'm pretty, you know, I've sort of accepted a certain level of risk and I kind of know there's certain danger. And so when you see things, see accidents happen, you're like, yeah, I mean, I know that there is a degree of risk involved.

And that's I mean, like that is the degree of risk. Yeah. You said one time I saw somewhere you said high consequence is not the same as grave danger. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, so I often differentiate between risk and consequence because people are like, oh, what you're doing is super risky. And I'm always like, oh, what I'm doing is super high consequence. Meaning that if, if something happened, I would for sure die

talking about free selling walls. Um, but it's not necessarily risky because the risk is, is the likelihood of me actually falling off. And that, you know, you can't really determine that from seeing a picture or seeing a video clip or something because you know that's something that only i really know how solid i am on the wall like how likely i am to fall off of it but no i think it's similar to you know when you see someone like laird hamilton you know surfing a gigantic wave and you're like how to me that looks like yeah it's like well this guy's flirting with death and yeah what people don't realize or perhaps underappreciate is the lifetime of work that went into building up to that. I mean, he can hold his breath for minutes, I'm sure.

And he could be pinned down and he can survive a lot. But if I fell off a wave like that, I would for sure die. I don't even swim that well. I can't hold my breath that long. But he also knows how to make those micro adjustments while he's on the wave so that he can stay on his board. But he also probably but he also probably appreciates the difference in the consequences because falling off a wave like that isn't guaranteed death i mean big wave surfers are rarely on a wave that you're going to die i mean

people wreck all the time and they do occasionally die but it's not like guaranteed certainty yeah yeah and they often get pulled out or or swim out or you know whatever like they manage i don't know the degree of consequence is different but the risk is probably much higher because they probably fall off quite a bit more right but i think it's more about it's more about the relationship between the understanding or appreciation of the certainty of death vis-a-vis you know the fear like the fear impulse and from what i, like you've just developed an ability to have a presence of mind and a mindfulness to manage that in a way that is

unique. I don't know. I mean, that's, yeah. Well, I read the thing about, um, how you had like the MRI in your brain and then the guy was like, your amygdala just doesn't, doesn't fire. No, no. That was the guy before that MRI. Oh, okay. Yeah. If you read the article, there was a quote from a guy being like, I bet his amygdala doesn't work. But then when we did the whole, the brain scan, the functional MRI and everything, they found that I do have an amygdala. Well, of course you have one. It does.

Yeah. Well, I mean. Maybe you don't. Like they were expecting not to see it. Well, I was sort of like, oh, I hope everything's in there. Yeah. Well, it's always a little weird when some someone takes a look under the hood you're like i hope it's all in there uh-huh but um but no all the parts were there and the and the amygdala

was functioning it just wasn't firing during this certain test um but i'm just showing you like images like graphic images yeah they're showing graphic images and i was like well why would that trigger a fear response because just a picture who cares but had they put you know poisonous snakes into the freaking machine with me i'm sure i'm sure i would have been all lit up right right right you know but your response was was was different different from like a control group yeah response right yeah and and i think one of the notable things in the article was that i mean this is this isn't real science this is like an anecdotal it was like me versus one other climber um who was the control he was another uh i think a phd student or something that worked in that lab who also rock

climbed so since we were roughly the same size and age and demographic they just you know compared us and he also felt like the pictures weren't very stimulating because i mean it's just random pictures but his brain still lit up in the way that you would expect whereas mine didn't um but the thing is the interpretation can either be that through you know 10 years of systematic practice i've sort of dampened my response or i'm just slightly handicapped in some way and that's why i've gotten good at free soloing is because my brain has never lit up like that so you know i personally because i i know how much i've i've grown over time in my climbing and so I see it more as a practice thing just

because I know that I couldn't have done the things that I do now 10 years ago because I just hadn't learned how yet, you know, hadn't practiced. But I'm sure other people can interpret it whatever way they want. Yeah. I mean, it seems to me that it's the result of like an intention and a sort of diligent focus on honing that over the years. Because from what I, I mean, my perspective, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems like what distinguishes you isn't necessarily your physical capabilities. It's your ability to be present and manage the mental chatter so that you can be completely in the moment of what you're doing

and keep that fear response or whatever it is at bay so that you can be extremely focused over like an extended period of time. Possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to know because I don't know what goes on in other people's minds. So, you know, I'm like, as far as I'm concerned, everybody thinks the same way I do. I'm like, oh, it's totally normal. It's totally natural. But then, but this is all you've ever done and known yeah well exactly and so i'm like oh maybe this is a little unusual like i don't know yeah but i mean you have this like aw shucks kind of you know reaction to all of this and you know that's because it seems totally natural right because it's when you're doing it yeah exactly who you are yeah it's a fundamental yeah exactly

so you wouldn't you wouldn't know differently yeah but though i i think as i get older i appreciate more and more that it's maybe a little bit different just because um like hanging out with my girlfriend and uh like getting to know other people well you know they have like sort of normal anxieties and they like have you know they tweak about things more and they stress things more and i'm just like i just don't like ever you know like full stop really i mean not to say that i don't worry about some stuff or like have stress in my life a little bit but i just like do not i don't know very little you know there's like a very little probably is like a nature and nurture thing yeah i'm like i don't know i don't know but taking it back to the beginning you know when you

when you first when you start climbing like when you were like 11 or 12 yeah or maybe 10 yeah yeah and and and it wasn't like initially out of the gate like oh this guy is just a phenom no and that's the thing is i've never been physically gifted at all i mean after 20 years of of regimented practice and training i'm still not as good as a lot of people that you know there are a lot of people with physical gifts and climbing and i'll just never be as as strong climbers as they are but i mean climbing is a big sport and people sort of go in their own directions. And so if I was to ask Conrad or Jimmy or any of these other guys, like what, what makes you different or unique or special or able to do the things that you've been able to do that no one else has been able to do? Like, what would they say? I don't know. Actually, it's interesting you mentioned them because in a way

they both sort of represent a generation before me, like slightly more old school, adventury, you know, like big mountain type experience. And so actually, so compared to their generation, sort of like the big wall type dudes, I am much more physically gifted as a climber. But then compared to my contemporaries and people of, you know, coming up in the new generation of climbing, I'm very, very weak by comparison to them, you know, like standards have been steadily changing. And so compared to somebody like Conrad, I'm like a much better technical climber. And that's because I grew up climbing in a climbing gym. And, and, uh, you know, starting at the age of 11 or 12, I was practicing technique and working on my footwork and, you know, I got stronger fingers. Whereas Conrad wasn't climbing until he was an adult and he was climbing outdoors and he was never, it's a different kind of, yeah, it's's very different and you kind of came up at this perfect

time yeah i really climbing became a thing that you could actually do as a living i mean if you were born 10 years earlier it might have been a different situation for sure and not not just that um that being able to be a professional climber sort of became an option for me but also i grew up with gyms i'm like i'm the first generation of gym climbers. Um, and now kids growing up today have much better gyms and they're climbing at a much higher level. I mean, much better facilities, much more talent, and you're just, you're seeing a different level. And the awareness is so mainstream now they can point to people like yourselves and say, there's a path towards, you know, being in that situation. I mean, you were still a little bit early like when you decided you were going to do this it wasn't

like oh i can do this for a living i'm just going to be this nomadic exactly i didn't even decide i just you know i was like oh i'm just going to go climbing all the time and eventually it sort of morphed into making a living from it but um it's interesting at events now having kids come up and say i want to be a professional climber and i'm like huh you know like that know, like that was never like, really? Like I didn't even know, but I mean, that's cool. You know? It seems interesting the way that it kind of developed for you because you did, you went to Berkeley, right? And then you went for a year, you're going to be an engineer and you ended up dropping out. But that was sort of around the time, like your father passed away.

Someone else passed away in your life as well? Actually, both my grandfathers had died in the previous year or two. And when you look back on that, what is the, do you feel like that was part, did that give you a perspective on how you wanted to live your life that compelled you in a way? I mean, looking back on it, it probably, um, it definitely added a sense of urgency to things a little bit or, or a certain, um, a good reminder that life is finite and that, you know, you should do the things that you want to do. But, um, it's funny though, because, you know, looking back on it now, 10 years out, you're like, oh, I dropped out of school to become a climber. But when, when it was happening, I was taking a semester off so I could go climbing. And then I took another semester off and then I

took the next 20 semesters off or whatever. You know, it's not like I dropped out. I just like, didn't ever go back. Right. But you, you, you had this thing that you loved and you wanted to express that in your life and you wanted that to be a bigger part of, of who you are. Yeah. Something that I cared about much more than education at that time. Right. And, and, but most people would have may have just clamped that down and said, yeah, but I got to get through college. I got to, you know, the social pressures, the familial pressures, like, and then slowly over time that, you know, that, that climbing instinct just turns into weekend expeditions and then once a month, and then you're 45 years old and you're like, what the fuck happened? Yeah. I mean, I'm just kind of lucky that it worked out that way in some ways. I mean, I definitely felt all those societal pressures and

familial expectations and all that. And so, I mean, part of it was, um, you know, both my parents were, were professors. Um, and then, you know, and it was just expected that the kids are going to college, you know, that my sister and I would both go to school and get an education. Um, so when you stopped out, what did your mom say? Well, she was fairly supportive or she, well, the thing is, it wasn't that I was quitting college. It was that I was taking a semester off. Um, and also that year I'd been invited to youth worlds. Um, like I'd gotten second national. So it was kind of like, Oh, you know, go to Scotland, do youth worlds, uh, you know, climb a little bit in Europe or something like take the semester off. Cause it was during the school semester. And, um, so it was a really good excuse to take off a few months. Like dad had just died. I was

going to worlds. It was all sort of like, uh, you know, things were a bit of a change. And so I took six months off and then I just, you know, didn't go back. But so there was never a point where it was like, I'm never going to go to college again. Cause I'm sure had I said that she would have been a little bit more, you know, resistant. But then it just sort of played out that now I'm an old homeless person. Well, yeah. I mean, it organically just grew out of this thing that you just loved. Right? You know?

And there's something really pure and beautiful about that. Like, it wasn't like, I'm going to be the best climber in the world. You were just like, this is what I want to do. Yeah, it's just fortunate that it all sort of worked out. You know, sort of put the path in front of me to follow that like i'm going to follow that and i think it was funny because when you're on the path i never you know you never think you're following a path right you know i was just like i was living in a car living in tents just going climbing a lot and it doesn't feel like a path until many years later when you look back and you're like i was very committed to rock climbing

but at the time you're just like what am i doing yeah it's always that way i mean hindsight's 2020 and it looks like oh well everything lined up perfectly for you to be in this point but i think people under appreciate how perhaps confusing it can be when you're in that and you're not quite sure you know whether it's going to be a left turn or a right turn or how you're going to actually buy gas next week or any of those things i mean with climbing too you climb a couple days and then you have to take a rest day and so when you are young and unemployed and uneducated and you're taking rest days you're like what am i doing with my life you know because like you have to rest because physically your whole body hurts but on the days where you're not climbing you're like what what am i doing because like you know i'm

not climbing and i'm not doing anything else and i'm like my life sucks you know but there's a community of like they call it the dirt bags right yeah that was yeah sort of thing so there's support within that group kind of that was never my scene that much though i mean obviously i am a full you know i've lived in the car for 10 years but um but i was never big into the hippie lifestyle climbing you know the dudes hanging out smoking weed around the campfire enjoying the stars like that was never really my scene i think because i grew up in a climbing gym and i've always cared a little bit more about the performance side of climbing and climbing well but but that's what makes you emblematic of the next generation you know it's sort of like you could see the same thing in surfing right totally yeah the old lifestyle dudes that are like oh yeah bro i'm on the beach i'm

having a good time. And then the younger guys who come up and they're like athletes and they're committed and they're trying to, you know, go to the next level with all of this. I know. And it kind of makes sense that you just can't really reach the next level without a higher commitment to performance, you know? And that's why, I mean, the climbing's in the Olympics in 2020, which is kind of a big thing for the sport. How do you feel about that? I'm, I'm, I'm excited about it. I think it'll be cool. I mean, it has nothing to do with me because I'm too old and too weak and you know i won't be any i'm hoping to be a commentator or something i just want to go inspect it but um i think it'll

be amazing though i mean the people competing are are going to be amazing climbers but it's it's the natural kind of evolution of these kinds of sports but you always see a little bit of resistance with the old guard who are trying to protect that purity. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I'm just not quite old enough, I guess, for that. I'm excited. I think it'll be cool. I'll for sure watch it. It's going to be, it's going to be great. It's going to be cool. I met you first at the, at a screening of Valley Uprising in LA. And that, that movie was super interesting because it kind of addressed that, that, that sort of change of the guard. It really looked at the, it unpacked that history of what developed in Yosemite. Yosemite is a good place to see that, that generational change

because Yosemite is like each generation of climbers has been so distinctly different. And it's, it's really played out, you know, on the same walls for 50 years. Right. It's pretty cool. So are there young kids that you're aware of coming up right now where you're like, oh my God. Not quite yet. But I think that the big wall traditional climbing scene in Yosemite sort of lags behind the gym climbing scene, mostly because you get really, really strong in the gym

and then you start sort of taking that outside on more adventurous things like the walls of Yosemite. So I kind of think that the next generation of Yosemite climbers are still a few years out. Right. But maybe by the Olympics. Or maybe the next Olympics. Certainly within five years,

I would expect to be seeing some stuff that's really exciting. Well, there's no question that you've inspired, you know, the next generation of young kids who want to come up and emulate. Yeah, there are definitely a couple people that I'm like, oh, you know, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. Yeah, it takes a little bit of time to see how it plays out. Right.

So, can we talk about El Cap a little bit? Yeah, I mean, let's. I mean, come on, dude. Like, I just... So awesome. I can't even, like, my hands, just thinking about it, my hands start sweating and I can't, I can barely bring myself to, like, watch the footage.

It's just so nerve-wracking and i know that like this this was your moment like this is something you prepared for for a very long time and in that lead-up like in that preparation phase like what were you doing specifically to wrap your head around this that perhaps people aren't aware of um i don't know like what was the secret yeah 20 years of hard work no um i mean you knew every foothold going all the way up right uh almost i mean i knew all the ones that mattered because on the easy climbing you don't bother to memorize stuff because you just climb it and it's it feels like walking but on the harder parts for sure i knew i knew everything that mattered right and actually i still know almost everything you know i still

remember almost all of it certainly all the hardest parts i still have totally memorized but um i don't know i mean it's yes the lead up i'm like where do i even consider the lead up starting or finishing you know because i was i've been thinking about it for so many years and imagining it for so many years but then i didn't actually start seriously working on it until the last sort of year and a half. And then even that, I basically spent the fall season and then the spring season when I actually did it. Basically that year I was actively training and preparing and memorizing and, you know, what you would think of as actually preparing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that adage of, you know, ask a master painter how long it took them to paint the painting and they'll tell you their whole life.

Yeah, I mean, to some extent, because i've been thinking about all caps since 2009 so i mean that's um yeah i've been eight years of dreaming about it and the thing is and it had taken me that long to wrap my head around it and i wouldn't have been able to start physically preparing and actually training and memorizing holds and doing all that stuff if i didn't believe that it was possible and it had sort of taken me eight years to believe that it was possible. And beyond the kind of practical academic preparation and the physical preparation for it, do you have specific visualization techniques or mindfulness practices that you employ to like prepare your brain to handle it? Or is that just another experience thing? I don't know. So I've never,

I've never meditated or anything. I've like, cause I don't really know mindfulness techniques, you know, anything like that. But, um, but when I visualize roots, I mean, basically I just let my mind wander through it and I generally gravitate towards the parts that I need to. So the harder parts, you know, I'll just sort of think my way through certain sequences or I'll imagine what it'll feel like or, um, but I mean, a lot of it's just daydreaming parts you know i'll just sort of think my way through certain sequences or i'll imagine what it'll feel like or um but i mean a lot of it's just daydreaming you know thinking about how happy you'll be when you grab the final hold of a hard sequence or like how amazing it'll be to get onto the summit or conversely thinking about how terrible it would be to blow the left foot and slip off the last move and fall you know fall from 2500 feet or

whatever um so i mean i'm definitely thinking through and from the, the crux, the, the most difficult part of El Cap is, is about 2,300 feet off the wall. It's at least 2000 feet off the ground. And, um, and it's only this 15 or 20 foot section that's really difficult. And it's got this very end, right? No, it's the, it's the crux boulder problem. It's pitch 23, which is, you know, two thirds of the way up the wall. And, um, and it's,'s yeah it's maybe 20 feet of

difficult climbing but it's pretty hard and it has like some low angle terrain beneath it so like if you fell off you'd hit this kind of sloping ledge you know 60 or 80 feet below you but you wouldn't stop you know and so you'd hit that and it'd be like a little kicker and you'd shoot out and you'd maybe you'd maybe land on el cap spire which is 250 below you. But obviously you'd die if you fell 250 feet. Or you would miss the spire and go all the way to the ground, in which case you're really dead. But you'd probably still be alive as you free fall for night. You know, like I fully thought all that stuff through because, I mean, it's important. Because, like, had there been a bigger ledge, then you'd be like, oh, if I fell, then I would just stick the ledge and I wouldn't even necessarily die.

And so then it would kind of change your, you, uh, you know, the, the equation of risk and consequence and all that. You're like, well, if you're not going to die, if you fall off the hard part, then it's like, you don't need to be 100% solid in the same way. Um, in this case though, you would for sure die if you fell from any of it. So you're, you're, you have to live in that reality and, and embrace it. Right. I mean, you have to think it all through. You can't just be like be like well that's not going to happen so i'm not going to think about it like no you have to go there and like no no i definitely go there for everything i mean i think about what it would be like if it started raining you know what would happen if if uh like my shoe tore in half or something like one of my earliest sense of el cap in 2006 or 7 i think uh one of the first

times i did free rider the route that i ultimately sold um i stepped on this particular foothold and um and it like cut a hole in my shoe basically it's like a really sharp little point and uh and i climbed the whole rest of the route with this big flapping hole in my shoe but um you know that kind of thing i mean it's important to think about like what would happen if you tore your shoe you'd be like that sucks there's plenty of variables that you can't control right so you you do your best to control all the things that you have but you domain yeah you may not be able to control them but you can at least think them through so that if they happen it's not like oh no you know you're like all right but if a crazy freak gust of wind it doesn't matter really yeah it doesn't matter i mean

well because i've climbed in a lot of places with really really strong wind and you just kind of know what strong wind feels like and if you think even 50 mile an hour wind as a percentage of your body weight it's like it's not that much force on you it's like you can still climb it roughly the same uh the most the most challenging thing about wind is psychologically like hearing the howling is like really fraying for your mind uh but i mean if you're focused on doing something like wind doesn't really matter that much so when you're on the wall did was there any misstep along the way or did you just execute as you yeah everything was everything was perfect yeah yeah though it was interesting the morning of um i didn't feel you know particularly great like i was kind of tired um i sort of hit it right at the end of

the season where like i'd been toiling hard for six weeks and training. And, um, you know, there's a certain point where it's like, Oh, you peaked and you're like definitely declining how I was, you know, I, I don't think I hit it quite at the peak peak. I hit it sort of at the beginning of the decline, but I mean, which is fine because I was still very, very fit and I was still ready. And it was, it's just the way the timing worked out. But, um, but that morning it was like a little bit overcast, um, a little bit cloudy. So it stayed sort of humid and warmer during the, the night so when i started climbing it felt really muggy and warm and like i was hoping that it would be clear and crisp and like a cool morning yeah but um but it just wasn't and so part of me is like oh these aren't perfect conditions but then i'm like who

cares you know because uh like i've climbed on the route in so many different conditions i was like it can it can be 10 degrees warmer it can can be slightly more humid. Like it doesn't, that doesn't matter. Did you feel a sense of pressure though? Like I am coming off my peak, like I need to do this now. I don't want to wait another week or for the weather to clear. Um, I mean, not exactly pressure, pressure, but, um, yeah, I mean, part of me just knew that if I wait another week, it was, it was in June 3rd when I did it. And so the temperatures are only getting hotter and the season was kind of winding down. And, um, and I mean, I was just, I just knew I was ready. Uh, my shoes were perfectly broken in. My skin was good. I was confident. I just worked on everything. Um, I mean, the thing about waiting another week is

that then, uh, like I'd actually been planning on doing it three or four days before, but it had rained a little bit. And so then I had to spend a day repelling the wall again to make sure that the rain hadn't disturbed um like i had some little tick marks like little chalk markings on certain holes in key places then to make sure i could find them with my feet and things um maybe wanted to make sure the chalk hadn't washed off in the rain and make sure that none of the hard parts were wet and just so but the problem is that hiking to the summit and repelling the whole wall makes you pretty tired and so then then you have to take another rest day and then you can you know so it's one of the things you're like oh yeah i could wait a couple days for better weather but it's like you know there's always going to be something right yeah and then and the thing is

that you have to maintain a high degree of fitness before you do it which means you need to be training you need to be climbing you need to be doing other things but that obviously makes you tired and so you kind of have to nail it all perfectly where it's like you've been doing enough training that you feel strong but you're not tired and right you know or not too tired right because actually i'd climbed and hiked the day before but just a little bit of both enough so that it was active and i felt like my body felt good but i wasn't tired tired i don't know i mean there's a lot of it's a lot of magic in it you know a lot of secret sauce really because a lot of it's confidence and you just have to feel good about

it. And what was, what was the, the manner in which you kind of, uh, let other people in on what you were doing? Right. I would imagine you had to be pretty judicious about like who you're sharing this, you know, goal with and, and, and, and being clear with how you're going to handle people who are going to try to talk you out of it. Yeah. Actually nobody really tried to talk me out of it. I mean, most of my, my personal friends, you know, weren't necessarily excited about the idea. They're all just like, Oh, really? But, uh, but nobody, nobody was like, you shouldn't do that because, you know, they all sort of respect my decision-making process. And, um, yeah, it's interesting though. So for the eight years, I guess that I've been dreaming about El Cap I'd never really talked about it except for maybe with

a couple climbing friends as like that would be an amazing dream but never like I want to do that because it's just a little too it's a little too much you know and then and then two years ago I mean it's kind of a long story but basically there's the whole process making the film around it so Jimmy Chin and his wife Trivester haley approached me about doing a film project like a documentary film uh like a feature and which is a big opportunity for me as a professional climber and i was like oh that'd be great like that's cool but the only thing that i cared about filming on or making a movie about was el cab and in a way i was like it's kind of a amazing opportunity to do justice to el cab right you know, because if any climb in the whole world deserves a movie

about it, it's El Cap. I mean, it's the most beautiful wall in the world. It's like, that is a pinnacle climbing achievement that, you know, should be documented in a, in a good way. If it's, if it's ever going to be filmed, it should done right you know and so i kind of took it as a cool opportunity to you know combine my long-term dream with this big you know professional opportunity and and in some ways it was good to have a little bit of it's not added pressure because i mean they didn't care about what i climbed they just wanted to make a film with me and i was the one that was like we're doing it on lcap because that's what i want to do and they're like sweet because obviously that's a you know very very photogenic wall um, but it was a little bit good for me

to have a little extra, you know, to actually go and start working on it because, you know, without having ever talked to anyone about it for years, I just kind of sat on it. It was like, Oh, it's too big. It's too big. I don't know. And then once I started talking to my friends about it and it became like a film project and, and then once it was, once we were filming, then I started talking to my friends more about it and and then it became more real to me and i actually worked on it yeah yeah yeah yeah and then i started the real process like okay i'm working on it this is what i'm doing and then i did it uh-huh but and and you have this you have a very hang dog loose like kind of uh uh response to all of this like as i recall um like when you get to

the top you're like yeah dude it's cool all right you know what's next oh no no when i got i was i was pretty psyched i mean of everything i've climbed in my life getting to the top l cap i was glowing for even i mean even right now i'm still like pretty psyched i mean it's pretty amazing but you have i mean you have this nickname right like no big deal like alex no big deal yeah i didn't come up right right i'm sure you didn't you know um no but lcap was very meaningful to me for sure um i think it's probably the first thing i've done in climbing that i'm that i'm really proud of when's that movie coming out um it should be september october oh cool is that national geographic or north face um it's so national geographic or fox i guess um jones it uh you know it's financed i suppose um right but basically it's it's a chai and jimmy

um directing it and then you know i don't know what combination of partners will get it but it's already um committed to theaters and everything so it'll be released in movie theaters oh wow that's cool yeah it's not like a little bamf film festival style short it's like a it's like a movie movie right well may rue like made a big yeah so that's actually the sort of viability of movies like that yeah and so um it's basically the same team that made meru um making you know with bigger backers this time and more more opportunity is making hopefully a better version right and i'm does it tell i'm sure it tells the whole story behind it and like was he filming you like preparing yeah yeah they were filming with me for the two years ahead of time basically wow that's exciting

yeah i assume there's a documentary about antarctica right yeah that'll be more like a traditional climbing documentary i think it'll be really good because it's so beautiful but the antarctica film will be much more climbing specific. I think the, I mean, the El Cap film will be in movies. You know, it's designed so that someone in middle America that knows nothing about rock climbing can go and see it and still be inspired and not horrified. Right. I think, I hope. No, I'm sure. I haven't seen any of it.

Well, I mean, that's such a crossover event because you don't have to know anything about climbing to watch that and just be astounded well that's kind of the beauty of free-souling is that it's easy for people to understand you know you look at it you're like well that guy doesn't have anything on what are where are those ropes attaching to you know it's like i don't understand i know people always ask how do you get the ropes up there but if there's no rope then it's like oh you just climb up there right like interesting i like stuff so what is. So what is the physical training look like for you beyond just the climbing itself? Like, what other kind of prep do you do? I mean, basically climbing and climbing specific training, which is like fingerboarding, like hanging from small edges in systematic ways, different grips to isolate your fingers.

And then opposition stuff, you know uh so like working your pushing muscles instead of your pulling muscles just to keep from getting injured and then i was actually doing a fair amount of stretching before i'll cap just because one of the key uh one of the hardest parts on the crux is this big karate kick to the left with you know it's just this crazy maneuver where you have to put your foot like way over there and um so as i got more flexible that that became more secure um yeah but finger pull-ups yeah all that kind of stuff yeah but um i mean for the six months i guess preceding the actual real so maybe the five months preceding the real solo i was i was as i call it on the program you know so i was i was getting like a weekly massage to help with recovery

um My diet was was like pretty locked and I basically didn't eat any sugar or anything I had no supplemental dessert stuff for you know, five months Um, I was basically eating vegan diet, but with eggs still But um, but very clean very wholesome like not eating out that much just like, you know eating rice and vegetable type meals and just like I was i was probably the leanest i've ever been but part of that because i was doing a lot of exercise so i

was also just burning a lot um but i think when i when i when i sent the free rider when when i actually pre-sold it all cap i was probably three or four pounds lighter than i normally am but part of that's just from all the hiking and stuff too but yeah yeah yeah um i don't know i was very fit you know right so actually i was i just said i was in new york the last couple days i was climbing with one of the cameramen uh one of the verite filmmaker guys that was shooting with me for the actual ascent and so he was the guy that walked to the base with me and then was also on the summit basically he filmed me taking off the bottom and then he ran around and made it to the top and then he was on top when i got there which is pretty cool but um this guy, uh, so I was climbing in the gym with him cause he's a rock climber also.

And, um, he was like, Oh, when we saw you in the spring, like, yeah, we all were all like, Whoa, he looks fit. Like, you know, he's been training, which I mean, I'm, I'm always climbing and always training to some extent, but it was for me a different level, like a level of focus and specificity for that particular. Well, and I think because I cared about the objective so much more, I was willing to really, you know, people were, you know, offering you cookies or something. You're like, no, I don't, I don't need that. You know, like I've got a goal. And so what does it all mean to you? Like you, it's, it's been a moment, you know, since that occurred, like with a little time and perspective, like, you know,

how do you think about it? And like, what is the significance of that for you? I don't know. I mean, I think I might need another moment, you know? Yeah. It's funny because I'm still talking about it a lot and the film project is still ongoing and I've been doing a lot of talks around LCAP. And so it's still feels pretty fresh for me, even though it's been six, seven months now. But I don't know. I added a couple of chapters to my book, so there'll be a revised edition of my book coming out. And so I've been writing a lot about it. I've been editing.

It's like I'm still very much in the world of Freerider. And so I don't know. But it's definitely the biggest goal or project I've ever had in climbing. It's definitely... Well, I think it holds significance for the sport in general. I mean, it certainly raises awareness about what you guys do and and and you know i think it allows people to have a level of appreciation uh that maybe you know they don't have because it's kind of a it's this weird

mysterious subculture i mean any non-climber can definitely walk into yosemite valley and look at the walls and and just think oh my goodness like that is outrageous uh-huh i mean and i kind of feel the same way about i mean i was back in yosemite in the fall and i look up at el cap and honestly it doesn't you know even having having climbed without a rope now it still looks so crazy like what an amazing wall like that's so cool i mean do you think like you know when i was 15 or whatever like do you think back to that young kid and and think what would he think of what you yeah i mean yeah 10 or 15 years ago the first times i looked at el cap i thought it looked totally crazy and now i mean it looks a little bit less so but you still look at it you're like

that's an intimidating wall like that is a big crazy wall yeah it's like yeah i mean you see people up there and it's like little tiny dots and you're just like wow that's really big right it is crazy man yeah i mean what is what is what do you think is like behind it like what's driving you what is the what's the motivation is it is it love is it a is it a sense of adventure is it a competitiveness like what's the psychology behind what motivates you to do all this i I don't know. I mean, it's, it's a lot of things, I guess. I mean, part of it is definitely trying to see what I can do, what I'm capable of. I mean, especially with El Cap, it was something that I felt like I was maybe uniquely capable of doing in, in this generation, at least. I mean, I'm sure people will do it in the future more and, you know, it might not be that crazy in 20 years but um but at this point in time

i was like if anyone is going to do this i think it could be me if if i apply myself to and if i really care about it and you know being the first to do something like that i mean was that that hasn't always been a huge motivator for me for various projects but for lcap i mean i did kind of i did kind of want that right i was like mean, you look at that wall and you're just like, I don't know, it's so proud. And I'd spent all my years of climbing looking at it as the ultimate objective, like the pinnacle of rock climbing. And I was like, that could, you know, I could do that. That could be me. And so then, you know, I sort of felt obligated to try.

Yeah, I think there's something that is very, very you know i keep using the word pure that's not quite the right word that i'm looking for like almost like a um like a childlike innocence about about you know what you do it's so primal it's like there's a mountain i'm gonna climb it like there's that it's a elemental yeah it's very basic or yeah and i think to ask someone like yourself like you know this i had conrad on the show a while ago and and you know i found the same thing in him it's like if you ask somebody like yourself like why do you do what you do it's just like this is who i am you know this is it's an expression of of something so deep and and so innate in my personality and how i'm like i can't give yeah exactly you know because it's awesome you know but i mean for you it's it's a love for somebody else they're like that's

the most terrifying thing i've ever seen like i wouldn't go anywhere near yeah that's fair i mean that's how i feel like about singing you know if i had to go up on stage and sing i got i might as well just kill myself like it would be a disaster but a lot of people love you know music performance any of that and that's great i mean everybody has something that they're passionate about right so what else scares you then well i don't know i mean that kind of stuff is probably at the at the core of it you know public performance yeah being in front of people or give talks all the time but that's because i've had a lot of practice now and i used to be mortified of that. Like when I was in school, if I had to give some kind of presentation in front of the class,

like terror, right. You know, right. Just so embarrassed. And just so, um, I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's like social situations have always been the most, the most traumatizing for me. Let's talk about the diet stuff. Yeah. I know you want to talk about that yeah i want to do a little bit just i mean that's you tell me you know well i don't know man like tell me you know i i have a general sense i think of where you're coming from but i'm interested in in your evolution your relationship with food um yeah well i mean so i i've been vegetarian for five years i think maybe maybe a little more or less um and then throughout that i've sort of dabbled with veganhood from time to

time but never that seriously because it's just hard with all the traveling and just and especially going on expeditions and various things like in antarctica i was eating a bunch of meat um so the reason i went vegetarian was for the environmental impact like trying to help the earth basically um and then i'd also read a bunch about human health and performance stuff and and then once i stopped eating meat i started caring more about the ethics a bit which i guess kind of made sense that once i stopped killing other creatures that much then i started caring more about their lives you know but it was one of the things that when i was eating a lot of meat it was i like, oh, who cares about chickens, you know?

But then once I stopped, I was like, oh, I'm glad to not be killing creatures. You had to opt out of them. Yeah, because, yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, I try to do no harm in general. Like, I would never just kill some songbird, you know? So it's like kind of the same with food. Was there like an influence, like a book or a person? So a bunch of books.

I mean, kind of all the classic like china study type things um i mean i don't know like yeah thrive uh the brendan fraser book yeah actually i don't think i've actually read your book it was funny i was reading through all the different diet books i've read and i was like i don't think i've read yours i'll give you a copy yeah brendan lives you do have a million copies yeah um and brendan lives right up the street yeah oh does he yeah that's cool he's local yeah but like i know scott jurick i'm like friends I have a million copies around. And Brendan lives right up the street. Yeah. Does he? Yeah. That's cool.

He's local. But like I know Scott Jurek. I'm like friends with him. I read his book. I read his stuff after I'd already gone vegetarian and everything. But and so my sister's been vegan for, I don't know, 12 or 14 years or something. And and she lives a very conscientious, intentional lifestyle. Like she lives in Portland.

She's never owned a car. She bicycles everywhere. She's very vegan. She's super Portlandia. Yeah, she's super Portlandia. It's pretty classic. But I mean, she's made very intentional choices with her life to minimize her harm, you know, which I really respect. And so that was always a positive influence for sure.

For me, though, it's all slightly more in moderation. You know, I definitely call myself vegetarian, but like I was saying in Antarctica, I was eating meat. Yeah. Like when we're at the Russian logistical base, we were getting served by the Russian staff. I mean, it's like, oh, the options are pork or pork soup. Yeah. And I was kind of like, well, I guess I'm having the pork soup because Lisa has, you know, frozen vegetables in it, too. Yeah. And I was kind of like, well, I guess I'm having the pork soup because Lisa has, you know, frozen vegetables in it, too.

It's like and and realistically, you know, because my goal is always to minimize my impact. It's like if I eat meat from time to time when it's like the thing that there is to eat, I'm like, that's fine. I'm still minimizing 90 percent of my impact or whatever. That's that's good enough. And then, yeah, but that's basically my dietary, you know, like minimizing my heart. Right, right, right. Yeah, it's interesting. I i mean i think it's a natural extrapolation of i mean you you point to your sister as living this you know low impact no impact minimalist lifestyle but you know your your life is pretty emblematic of that as well like it's it's minimal well i just bought a house right but you know you've been famously been living in this van for a long time but i travel so much though that i mean in terms of impact like the you know in terms of carbon emissions like my my footprint's outrageous you know though i kind of deal with

that in other ways but um but i mean i definitely have a big impact on the earth and that's part of the reason that i look for things like diet like any kind of personal choices i can make to minimize that impact i feel are pretty important for me and you you've always, I mean, how long did you live in the van? Well, I mean, 10 years, I guess. But I mean, last year I bought this house in Vegas, but then I still spent six months in the van because then I went to Yosemite for two months. And then we, my girlfriend and I road tripped around the Northwest for two months in the summer. And then I was back in the Valley in the fall. So, I mean, yeah, I was in the van for six months. I'm so bummed that you didn't drive the van here yeah i want to see it yeah i came from new york though so yeah no i know um and you know baked into that really is

you know living living light in the sense of like you're not accumulating a bunch of possession like you just want to climb you're trying to the the idea behind it really is like strip away everything non-essential yeah focus on distractions so that you can spend the most amount of time doing the thing that you love. That's most important to you. Yeah, for sure. Right. Like, what do I want to be doing and what do I need to do to do that? And then everything else is just sort of superfluous. Right. But I would imagine as your profile continues to rise, that there are more and more pressures on you to, you know, hey, come do this or come here.

And it all sounds awesome. Right. But all of those things are kind of related to what you love and perhaps they inform it or inspire other people to get more involved and excited about this thing that you love. But ultimately, it's taking you away from the thing. Yeah. I mean, you've had to deal with all that, too, huh? Yeah. Well, I was it's like, oh, all this wellness is making me un thing. Yeah. I mean, you've had to deal with all that too, huh? Yeah.

Well, it's like, oh, all this wellness is making me unwell. Yeah. You know what I mean? Exactly. It's that classic thing of like, oh, well, what's more important? Like me going out on a trail run or going and getting in front of a thousand people to talk about like this lifestyle. You have to balance that, right?

Yeah. And sometimes it's hard for me personally to say no. And I've had to learn how to get better at that no i struggle with that stuff too i mean i joke with a lot of my friends that being a professional climber makes you a worse climber you know because the sponsors yeah being a professional yeah being a professional climber means that you're working you can't be the dirtbag exactly yeah being a dirtbag all you do is climb so you're pretty good at climbing right but i mean but obviously there's balance because being a professional you get paid to go to cool places you get you know you broaden your climbing experience and you know for me it's important that that i make a living i can save for the future like

because i don't want to be a 75 year old dirtbag living in my car with like no health insurance just like struggling you know um like you know i'm very grateful that i'm able to save and that you know someday i'll have a family and it should be like a relatively comfortable lifestyle and stuff and you know that i mean yeah i'm glad for that but i still just want to go climb all the time right right right why uh why did you get a house in vegas i think it's the everybody yeah everybody's like why vegas especially people from overseas they're like but i think it's the best climbing in the country really straight up but um the climate is great for climate it's like always good um there's climate altitude so when it's hot you just go higher and it's totally fine um also the the housing is cheap so it's easy to get a place there um there's no

income tax which is kind of um and the thing is, I mean, where else, you know, like where, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. Boulder, I guess. Or where do all those guys live? Boulder's super pricey. So you can't just like buy a casual house in Boulder unless you're a millionaire. Or living near Yosemite. Um, yeah, but I don't, I don't like the Yosemite housing situation because anywhere that you

can live near Yosemite is still a 40 minute drive into the Valley. And so I would still just want to stay in the valley with my van and deal with the valley camping situation because I just don't like having to drive back and forth all the time. Yeah, there was that thing in Valley Uprising where you have to park your van outside the perimeter, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, there are a lot of different ways. You can pay for the camping in the pay campgrounds. There are different things you can do, but everybody sort of finds their own path in yosemite and and there are definitely ways to make it work

but the thing about living 40 minutes out is that it's not even in a city then it's like not like the restaurants or anything to do it's like you're just in some cabin in the woods but you still drive super far right and so i would rather live like where i live in vegas i can walk across the street to a bunch of different ethnic restaurants and it's actually i think it's like the only neighborhood in vegas that's walkable but there, I can walk across the street to a bunch of different ethnic restaurants. And it's actually, I think it's like the only neighborhood in Vegas that's walkable. But there's a grocery store across the street. There's a bunch of restaurants. It's everything I need.

And there's a climbing community there? Yeah, there's a good climbing community. I have a lot of friends there. You know, it's 10 minutes to mountain biking trails and it's like 20 minutes to the climbing, 15 minutes to climbing. And the climbing gym is four minutes. It's normally one track. Like if I'm listening to music, you know, on the drive there, you have one big song gets psyched up and then you get to the gym

and climb. I mean, it's pretty, it's a good situation for me. But now you're in a position where it's like, Oh, now I need furniture. And now I need like, Oh, that's why I have a girlfriend. She dealt with all that. She did. Yeah. That's amazing. You're like, I'm just going to go sleep in the van. No. So when I bought the house, actually at the time my girlfriend was abroad. And, uh, and so I did just, I got a wifi router and then I would just sit in this empty unfurnished the van no so when i bought the house actually uh at the time my girlfriend was abroad and uh and so i did just i got a wi-fi router and then i would just sit in this empty unfurnished home to use my laptop and then i realized that the service was just as good in the van on the driveway and i was like oh screw it i'm just staying on the driveway yeah so like i didn't have i had no

possessions nothing in the house i just had you know my wi-fi set up and i would just live in the van on the driveway and then um after a week or two or whatever when she came back then uh we acquired a bed and you know piece by piece right right stuff wow you got a house now um let's talk about the the foundation a little bit i mean this i think it's a natural segue because you know we're talking about minimalism low impact you know uh you know your diet so the same the same year that i went vegetarian i started the foundation right it was basically a year i was like i need to start trying to do something positive for the world and so i thought that the three things i was going to

do that year were start this foundation like start donating money to charity and uh start offsetting my travel like doing carbon offsets and then and then go vegetarian and um then the carbon offsets, I wound up sort of ignoring and rolling that into my foundation because as I looked into it more, I realized that you're basically financing projects that I'd rather just finance myself through the foundation, just do it more directly rather than going through a third-party carbon offset. And so, yeah, so basically that year I went vegetarian and I started the foundation, which at the beginning was just me donating money um in a public way to environmental non-profits uh-huh um and then actually just this year we're trying to sort of rebrand it as like a real thing that i'm more

comfortable being public about and the idea behind it is environmental preservation yeah so i think that i think the mission statement now is supporting solar energy for a more equitable world that's good who came up with that several of us and it took quite a bit it took more effort than it probably should have but but the solar the solar aspect of it or the solar focus of it is is kind of derives from this carbon offset idea right like well partially well actually no no really it comes from me looking for projects i mean so when it started i was just like what do i want to donate money to that will make the world a better place and so i started looking for things that were sort

of win-win because basically there's no point in supporting environmental projects that don't also improve human standard of living because if people are living in poverty they do not care about environmental protection and so basically i was looking for environmental projects that also help people in poverty or improve people's livelihoods and so and solar just fits that so perfectly i mean solar projects or energy access type projects are such an easy way to produce clean energy which is a clear environmental gain but also help people materially and so i started supporting basically one group in uh domestically which was grid alternatives and then one group in africa which is solar aid um doing off-grid basically it's like grid tied solar systems versus off-grid solar systems and um started supporting both of those

just because they seem like such obvious winners you know i was like this is making the world better and then over the last five years i guess guess that I've been supporting them, you know, we've branched out into some other projects and tried some one-off things our own and, and, you know, worked in the space more, but that's solar has always been the thread through it. And so now we've sort of just made that our actual mission statement. Right. That's cool. I like that. I don't know. I mean, it's, it's all a work in progress, but, um, but I think this year we're actually starting to be more like, I've never solicited donations. I've never actually asked people to donate to the foundation.

I've always just put it out there as like this is what I'm doing and this is, you know, my effort to try to do something positive in the world. But I think that this year we'll actually start trying to solicit donations to basically support bigger projects. Of course you should. So when you say we, you have a team of people. Yeah. So from the beginning, I've had this friend of mine, Mari Birdwell, who's the executive director. But basically, he's a climber who's an attorney in Boulder who's, you know, a friend. And then sort of starting this last year, there are two other women involved that are both, they brought a lot of energy to it.

They're a lot more go-getter and they're kind of making this all happen more. Because, you know, I've always just been content donating a big chunk of my income every year and just being like, okay, you know, I've always just been content donating a big chunk of my, my income every year and just being like, okay, you know, I've, I've done something positive. That's great. I'm supporting these projects, but I've never felt super comfortable pushing it really hard or asking people for money or, or soliciting big grants from, uh, from the companies I work with or anything. And so, um, I think they're sort of helping to bring the vision together and make it more public. Well, you know, just even if you have the greatest team ever, you're still the face of it.

Like you're going to have to get to a place where you're comfortable. Yeah. And just being like, look, man, this is a good thing. Like, you know, break out the wallet. Yeah. When I think that's kind of I think I'm getting there. And honestly, I think El Cap is actually tied into that a lot because I'm a lot more comfortable being a professional climber. Having done something that I'm actually very proud of yeah that i feel like i worked very hard for

and it was the that was a legitimately big challenge and um and i definitely have a bigger platform and certainly with a movie coming out this year it's going to be um probably a whole different level and so um it's just kind of good timing for me personally and professionally to to be more public about the foundation and and honestly and honestly, I mean, the, I mean, the world needs it, you know, like, yeah, I mean, I mean, you've traveled to places, you know, most people will never go, right? Like, so you have a sense of, uh, you know, the environments and, and kind of have a, have a perspective on, you know, a global awareness perspective that a lot of people you know because we just don't travel like you do i mean what is you you know what do you learn when you go to these far reaches

of the planet i've actually never really thought about this but it's interesting that through climbing i've kind of seen the full spectrum both environmentally and and through human society because i've been to some of the poorest places on earth where you see human populations living in in rugged conditions which you know this is like chad or places in in you know basically sub-saharan africa but like right on the edge of the desert like really really grim living conditions or very challenging conditions where you i mean it's just shocking to see people living you know you're like wow really right um but then on the other hand i've also been to places like going back to patagonia multiple years where each year you go you see the glaciers receded a

couple hundred meters to the point where um just over the three years that i've been to patagonia uh the approach into one of the valleys has changed significantly like you now hike on the opposite side of the valley because the glaciers move so much and it makes more sense to come in from the other side now and just over the course of your short career yeah just over the course of me going to patagonia for four or five years or whatever which is crazy because um and then you come back to the u.s and people are like no you know climate change isn't a thing and you're kind of like i mean you can go to the mountains and you can see the glaciers moving backward and that and that's just in my tiny tiny little lifespan which should be insignificant in the

grand scheme of of the earth. And so you're like, if humans can physically see change with their own eyes, I mean, that's a disaster. Right. You know, that's crazy. That's beyond a disaster. It's unbelievable. And it's so disheartening to see, you know, the situation that we find ourselves in where there isn't, you know, very much political will to confront it. Yeah. i think right

now it's even on the solar thing too right like i know the solar tariff thing is pretty crazy though on i don't know who's not in favor of solar like it's i know i know well it's interesting because you know the trump administration is trying to protect solar manufacturing in the u.s versus but it's like solar installation is such a bigger driver of jobs and better for the economy and just way more important but i mean whatever the thing with that stuff though i kind of think you know i'm no expert in the solar industry but um i think that's more like a little speed bump that's like that's annoying and that's stupid and it's short-sighted but it's not going to change the overall trajectory which is that every every structure in america will have solar on it within

you know 15 years or something yeah and like it's all happening no matter what and that's actually kind of what bothers me is that to me it seems clear that that's an inevitable trend that's happening like renewable energy is just cheaper you know everybody will go 100 renewable within the next 50 years because that's just the way that's the way it is but it's like too bad we can't just do it in 15 years instead of 50 right you know and save ourselves a lot of freaking climate disaster down the road yeah i mean it's like so frustrating that people can't just do it a little faster so quickly i mean if if there was a real will for it for sure i mean there are certain areas in china where they're just crushing it in that regard so it's weird that they're like leading the charge well i mean i think in some ways it's great because i mean there are far more

people in china too and so that's true and i mean somebody needs to lead and it's like if the u.s wants to abdicate that that opportunity you know just like give up the i mean it's disappointing that the u.s isn't leading but i'm like as long as somebody does that's great because humanity needs a leader and so you know yeah i mean it it uh we definitely do and it's a it's a race against time you know the the idea that you could see that change in a blink of an eye like i know it's crazy i mean there's one valley in patagonia it's like yeah i mean you know this is anecdotal it's not it's not real science but still you're like though i mean it i mean obviously it is real science you can go into the sierra and you can see that the glacier i mean have you ever seen any of the glaciers in the sierra there there are a couple uh in the palisades

like some of the 14 000 foot peaks in the sierra nevada and california um technically have glaciers but um it's so sad you go up now and you're like oh that tiny little snow field that's the palisade glacier you're like huh like that's not you know yeah that's not what people think of when they think of a glacier it looks like a dirty snow patch, you know, and in a couple of years it'll probably be gone. It'll just become seasonal snow patches. Well, I think, I mean, you're in a unique position somebody that, you know, people respect and admire, um, you know, to, to take that, to, you know, shoulder that responsibility and take that on. I, you know, I mean, I, I try to do that as, as much as I can. And, and, you know, that's sort

of why I like social media and having a platform is because I'm able to talk about issues that I think are really important. Yeah. But, um, but you do get such backlash and such criticism and so much, you know, all this shit for going to the women's march i know i know well it's because there were signs in those pictures like the last sign in the image in the series of images said uh uh i'd call trump a can i can i curse you can yeah you can say whatever you want i'd call trump a cunt but he lacks the warmth and depth uh-huh it was like which you know i'm like it's pretty funny but uh and that was like an old woman that had that sign i think i don't know my girlfriend took all the pictures and stuff um and then i just sort of took some of the ones that i thought were funny

and put them into a slideshow but i mean it gets like a lot of criticism from people and i'm like yeah i understand that that sign is it's crude it's vulgar and it's not respectful to the presidency but i'm like you know that is free speech like you know i wouldn't necessarily like i wouldn't i would never hold that sign like i that's not the message that i want to necessarily but at the same time it's the women's march i mean come on i mean basically it's a bunch of women you know trying to to advocate for for equal rights basically and and rights for you know minority groups and they're trying to register people to vote. And I'm like, all of those things should be fundamental for a functioning democracy. Like everybody, I know it's like weird that stuff becomes so partisan because

really, you know, if everybody votes, democracy is functioning at its best. You know, I mean, the whole point of democracy is for everybody to express their opinions. And so like, Alex, you're a climber, stay in your lane. Just, I just want pictures of you on the rocks. I know that stuff, that stuff is, well, I just want pictures of you on the rocks. I know. That stuff is... Well, I appreciate that point of view. And I mean, you know, I try to post a lot of climbing pictures. But like, what's the point in doing it?

What's the point in having a platform if not talking about the things that matter? Yeah. Particularly when they... I mean, it's the freaking rest day in Vegas. I went to do a cool cultural event with my girlfriend. It's like, that's awesome. I know. Shame on you.

I know. Yeah. I mean, if I went to like a cool natural history museum and posted something about the museum it's like that should be yeah exactly you know yeah i'd be like oh i went to this cool thing you know i want to share that but um but i think it just speaks to uh you know the heightened emotional state that we're in and the the extent of the polarization you know it's yeah so i generally try to i try to craft my my messages whenever i get political or you know talk about diet or talk about any of the stuff that i care

about environmental issues or anything i generally try to be relatively moderate and respectful about it because the thing is that people just unfollow you or turn you off then it's like you're only preaching to the choir and yeah and like i don't need to talk to the choir i need to talk to the people that disagree i definitely agree with that. And so that, I mean, I typically try to make things pretty mellow because I want people to listen to it, you know? Yeah. And you, I mean, on the diet tip, like I've heard you speak about it from time to time, but you don't put it out in front, you know, you're pretty low key about the whole thing. Well, that's also because I, I mean, I do eat meat sometimes. I don't want to preach

about, you know, like being vegan is the way, way i mean i do agree that if everybody ate a vegan diet the world would be a better place straight up but you know sometimes i eat pizza and i'm like oh it is right it is you know like dairy is not even that good for me like i think i'm lactose intolerant but from time to time like it's pretty tasty you know it's like you know it's okay and do you get grief for that talking about diet stuff uh yeah i mean yeah kind of um certainly if i post some like pro vegetarian thing people are like oh stay out of you know right i don't know so actually i feel like um so how do you like mentally you know manage like the the the haters oh i'm at a certain point you're just like f them like i don't yeah i don't care what was

interesting so the women's march was the biggest backlash i've ever had from anything on social media i think like outside magazine even like wrote an article about it you know yeah that stuff seems kind of silly but but i was actually kind of glad that it got picked up in various places because the point of me posting about it is was to give it a wider wider reach and so you know i'm glad for more people to see it more people to think about it more people to think about those issues i'm like that's i mean that's the point of having a rally to have people talk about it more people think about those issues i'm like that's i mean that's the point having a rally to have people talk about it right but anyway though um i think like 3 000 people unfollowed me after the women's march which you know you're like oh wow that's a lot of people unfollowing but at the same time that's like half a percent or less than half a percent i'm like that just

does not matter you know it's like it's just it just life goes on weird to me like okay you went to a women's march oh well a lot of women's rights like no a lot of people i want no part of you anymore a lot of people saw it as me being a pro-abortion so i mean the people that think that i'm advocating the murder of babies i'm like yeah okay i can see how that's really offensive to people like i respect that but um but me saying that i think that women should be able to choose their own reproductive option you know like be in control of their own bodies or whatever is a lot different than saying i think people should murder babies you know i mean and it's just too bad that that people conflate those online right but whatever

this is the you know this is the social media world in which we live you know i know it's so funny that you know i post a picture of a sign that says that that women should be in charge of their own bodies and people are like you want to murder babies and you're like no i mean it's like if i personally was a woman they got pregnant like i mean it would be a big decision like i don't know if i personally would want to abort a baby because you know i like in the same way that i don't eat meat and i don't necessarily want to kill other creatures i'm like i don't know if i would kill you know like i don't know if i would feel comfortable killing something at the same time i'm like i'm not going to tell other people not to i'm like jesus i mean it's their lives you know like they need to i don't know right just like yeah but it's just it's pretty heavy you know

people are like oh yeah you're advocating murder and you're like i don't think so like it's a pretty weird interpretation i thought it was funny that then then the next day you posted a climbing picture and you're yeah and i was like f all you mother everest yeah yeah i know your climbing picture yeah no i was very proud of that but i kind of love stirring the pot like that a little bit i mean that's the whole i mean that's how civil society should work you know people should exchange ideas and talk about things and you know broaden their opinions and stuff well the thing is like if you if you're able to develop a platform and you have an audience of people with that comes a certain responsibility to speak your truth. And if that doesn't land, you know, well with certain people, like, so be it.

Yeah. Because otherwise, what's the point? Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. Otherwise, you're basically being held hostage by the mob. Right. You're just like, oh.

We just want you the way we want you. Yeah. I'm like, no, screw that. I'm going to be me. I'm going to do my thing but all right well i want to talk a little bit about um like the practical aspects of like how you live this life like i i assume like i'm trying to understand like how this all works like you have north face as a sponsor they pay you you do commercials you use all these sorts of things you get paid in all these various ways and that all kind of comes

together to make it work is that that's basically it yeah that's pretty much it i mean you have like a manager yeah i have an agent slash manager that deals and so um all the little things that you're talking about like commercials or corporate speaking gigs or even my sponsorship money that all kind of goes through the agent yeah and so then i'm just getting you know direct deposits from my agent right right so he says like here's a good one or whatever filters out yeah like whatever stuff yeah exactly and it's it's kind of an interesting thing on the sponsor level um i mean north face i mean that's an amazing company like i i love how they support all these different interesting athletes and and that um like the athlete summit that they do like seems really cool yeah i mean that's basically

just the team meeting but it's pretty amazing because you get to hang out with all these people they're so great in different fields and it's always pretty inspiring yeah it's cool i had a bunch of those do you know dean carnaz is part of that um who else do you know brogan graham uh yeah yeah yeah he's very big i love that guy yeah he's been on the podcast uh timmy Olson. Yeah. Yeah. Runner. Yeah. It's cool. But on the other hand, you have like these other sponsors who are sort of creeping away from this high risk world. Like, you know, it's relevant to the social media thing because we're in this kind of, you know, environment in which, you know, it's got to be crazier and it's got to be

wilder and X Games and, you know, wingsuit people and all these insane stunts you know and it's like what's the next thing what's the next thing to the point where it was cliff bar right that like pulled back and said we can't be part of this anymore it's getting too hectic for us yeah it was that was i think in 2014 but that's the only sponsor that has ever dropped me um and it was part of that like purge that they did for that reason yeah um it was post valley uprising being released um and they dropped uh dean potter and cedar right and timmy and eo and steph davis so like basically the five of us that sort of represented the extreme danger climbing or whatever but um but then the next year dean did die in an accident and so you know obviously they're at least somewhat correct about risk

taking i mean we are doing things that are dangerous. And we're paying these people and then they feel some pressure, you know, maybe not, not like, you know, overt pressure, but internally to like push the envelope, push the envelope. So they have that on their hands if something happens. Yeah. I don't know this for sure, but, um, but the cliff thing, I think part of that was, I think Gary, the owner of Cliff, is personally really opposed to free-souling. And so I think it wasn't necessarily the brand is totally opposed, but Gary was like, I'm not into this. This is a bad deal or something.

I kind of think there was some kind of backstory. I don't know it. And I'm not really that concerned about it because, I mean, it's totally fair for them to not, you know. I mean, I really appreciated their support. And then once they fired me, they were actually really cool about it because i mean it's totally fair for them to not you know yeah i mean i really appreciated their support and then and then once they fired me they were actually really cool about it too they still sent me a free product and they paid out my contract and it was all pretty legit you know i was like that's cool i still get free product it's all good so um i mean i have no hard feelings at all but um yeah i mean every brand sort of makes makes their own decision you know yeah um i don't know though i mean interestingly so was, I sort of mentioned that I came from the beyond meat

office this morning. Oh yeah. That's right. So, I mean, this is kind of a good little example of how, how my whole lifestyle works is like, so they sort of reached out about maybe, I don't know, they've talked to my agent manager a bit, um, about maybe some kind of spark sponsorship or partnership or something. Like, I don't know exactly.

Right. But, um, but since i'm in la it made sense to go meet them and see the whole crew and eat the food you know yeah it was awesome yeah yeah and so um i got a full you know buffet of all their products they were super delicious i was really into it had you had beyond meat before not really they'd sent some to my address but i think i was on expedition my girlfriend ate it and i don't know i just never never really tried it um and so that's kind of an example of you know i might wind up with some kind of aligning your yeah aligning your sponsors with things that you're you're interested in yeah exactly consistent and that is like very much something that i'm interested in because i really

do think that's the future i mean i kind of think that's the only way the humans will be able to live well on earth is if we you know move away from animal agriculture stuff well and it's just cool to like align your professional career with your values in that way and i would imagine you're somebody who's in a position where you you have the ability to pick and choose and say you know this does this i don't this message isn't i'm not down with it you know i want to be with companies that are like on the same page that i'm on like if a soda company comes wanting to do a commercial, you're just like, no, like I'm not going to tell people they should drink more soda. Like, I don't even think they should be buying more cans, you know, let alone those, the

disgusting sugar inside them. Right. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Or, or like a tobacco company. Well, I don't think, yeah. Well, no, so, uh, no freaking, do you know Hans Florin? No.

He was like a big speed climber, kind of previous generation, but the two of us held the speed record on the nose together. Um, right up until last year, it got broken a couple months ago. But, um, so Hans was like Mr. El Cap speed record for, for many, many years. And, uh, but he's also a bit older than me and has been through the whole pro climbing thing a lot longer. Every time we would hike down from the top El Cap together, we would sort of debrief about what we did performance wise on the nose and sort of talk about what we should do better. And then just sort of talk, you know, climbing and life in general. And he was talking about having gone to Asia to do cigarette commercials like in the 90s or something. And he was like, oh, you know, in Asia, it's not as bad.

I was like, you did cigarette commercials in Asia? But I mean, but it was also it was a different time. And he was like, oh, I'm getting it. Yeah, exactly. He was like, oh, I'm making a living. And he has he has a family and everything and he's like raising kids yeah um you know but i was like hans you did a cigarette commercial that's freaking disgusting it's like you know 20 years ago do that stuff in japan yeah to make sure that nobody ever sees it for sure yeah yeah

well i've done some stuff like that where um yeah you do some campaign that like uh like i did a whiskey commercial um or it was more like a brand brand piece right yeah i know and they didn't even care it was awesome it was a doer's ad which actually turned out being awesome it's like a really great piece it lived online for three years or something it was good money it was like really good professionally but um yeah it was just you know some lifestyle branding thing they like didn't care that i like there's no mention of liquor in the ad there's no it was all about lifestyle like you know choosing your path or whatever but um yeah I was like well only people people are only seeing it in Europe so like at least it's not too embarrassing yeah I mean I I don't have judgment on athletes that make decisions like that it's like they just want to do their sport and and

it's well I judge a little bit I mean some of those things I'm like oh cigarettes like that's well that's that's sort of a page beyond, I think. Yeah, though, I mean, people could certainly criticize alcohol in the same way. But I was like, oh, it's like high-end scotch or whatever. Like that's not contributing to people drinking more. It's sort of like they're vying for market share in between. Well, maybe it is. Alex likes his doers, so. Well, I don't know.

Like I would think the soda actually would be worse than like a scotch commercial. There's no question about that. But what's cool is that, you know, with the, as the millennials come of age, we're seeing this crop of like companies that are premised on transparency and sustainable, you know, triple bottom line values and all of that. And so the options I think become, you know, better for someone like yourself to align with, you know, like-minded souls so that you can keep doing what you're doing and you can feel good about you know the companies that are supporting yeah like going to the beyond meat office today was a perfect example of like the posters the the quote you know the things on the wall everything i was like this feel you know like it could all

be up in my house it's like this is awesome it's totally in line with my values and they're going huge you know they're having a massive impact i mean i hope so yeah it's cool to or even the idea of working with a company like that that you want to succeed like i would love for them to take over the world just because it would make the world a better place you know like yeah you get rid of freaking billions of cows like that's good for everybody yeah there's no question about that yeah well cool man we only have a couple more minutes here, but before we, uh, before we close it down, you know, I'm interested in, in, in how you choose your adventures. Like what is the selection process? Is it just like a instinctual, like, that sounds cool.

I'll do that. Or do you put a lot of thought and intention into like, okay, what's my next move? Because there's gotta be some pressure like, oh, well you did El Cap. So now, you know, what's the next crazy thing you're going to do? Or is that not part of the calculus? Um, no, it's some combination of the two. I mean, it's, it's largely what's inspiring. You know, I mean, El Cap has always been the most beautiful, inspiring, like that is such a clear objective, but then I am pretty meticulous about having journals and to do lists and things. And so, you know, I make a list of potential goals and then obviously it makes sense to organize them in a way that maximizes fitness

and things. You know, like if you're trying to do something that's very short and hard, you do that before doing something that's like long and easier, you know, to build things so that physiologically you're actually capable of doing the things that you want to do. And then some of it has to do with weather and fitness and timing, you know, like where will you be at certain times of the year and how does that play into work? And so, I mean, I'm kind of constantly evaluating different potential goals. And so something that I might really want to do just like doesn't make sense to do this year because I won't have the opportunity because I don't have the time required or

I won't be in. Like I've always wanted to climb in Trango. It's like this valley in Pakistan. It's like big walls at high altitude. It's really beautiful. And I will definitely go there sometime in my life but um but not this year you know it's like it just doesn't make sense with the schedule and with stuff going on and like real life so what is the next thing um don't know um i mean basically i've been trying to get stronger like i've been i've been training

systematically in a gym yeah you look big man do i mean you're like you you definitely look you when you walked in the door i was like oh he's he's like a little more like jacked up than i was expecting all right yeah i don't know i've been uh i've been lifting some weights actually but i mean for a new thing yeah it's a very new thing yeah um well i came home from antarctica the heaviest i've ever been and kind of fat man style a little bit it was a little because the month before the trip i mean i kind of said i was slightly depressed about the trip i was like i don't know i i wasn't i wasn't excited about going i knew it was a great opportunity and i you know knew it'd be cool but i was like oh man it's gonna be cold i'm not gonna be climbing it wasn't you know but so anyway the month before i

went i wasn't training that much and i was eating a lot because i was trying to gain some weight before antarctica because it seemed appropriate and while I was there, I ate a lot because you're in Antarctica. And part of it was just, uh, uh, what do you call it? Like, uh, uh, like when you're comfort eating, you know, I was just, cause you have a really somewhat traumatic day of climbing and you come home and back to camp and you're just like, I'm gonna eat this whole thing Nutella, you know? Cause I just want to eat something to feel better. Cause it was like, it was pretty raw there. I mean, I thought it was pretty full on, but, um, so I came home and I was like oh like i'm i'm actually like kind of heavy and kind of weak and just like you know it's the first time i've ever been it was the heaviest i've

ever been a couple pounds overweight i mean i'm talking a few pounds here and there not like 10 but um anyway so now i've tried to start at the systematic training type of stuff and i'm seeing pretty good results on that or how do you get your information um the protocol so i mean i guess you could say i do um so a good friend of mine this guy jonathan seagrass who's one of the best sport climbers in the country like really under the radar like no non-climber knows knows who he is but he's one of the best sport climbers in the world but um he he's a good friend of mine he's also living in vegas and um so i'm paying him a bit as my trainer this season and the thing is i know how he's been training in vegas and um so i'm paying him a bit as my trainer this season and the thing

is i know how he's been training the last couple years and it's had really great success for him and so i'm like all right i'm doing this i'm committed to it but it's actually been quite helpful having him kind of guide me through the process because a lot of it is like form and how i do the exercises and like making sure that i maintain good shoulder health by like how i hold my arms to do certain things things like that but what is it functional strength stuff or it's actually lifting weights in a gym or no the lifting the weights is just for opposition type training that makes you know to balance out basically i'm hanging off small edges with a bunch of weight on i see um so i don't know what you call that but yeah i don't know but you're

used to doing that right but just not with extra weight not with extra weight the extra weight has made it uh quite a bit different for me but so i'm almost done with my first cycle and the, the, each, each cycle is like a month roughly. And, um, the last two days I was climbing in the gym in New York. I was like slightly off my program because I was traveling. But, um, it was the first two days where I was like, Oh my goodness, this is working. And it's pretty exciting. I was like, I felt really strong in the gym. It was like, wow. So, yeah. So what does that translate into? Does that like change? Okay. Well now that I feel like this, like maybe I'll go do this climb. It'll take a lot more.

It'll take like right now I'm sort of feeling as strong as I ever feel. I'm going to do at least one more training cycle for the month of February. And hopefully that'll break into new ground where I'm like, oh my goodness, I've never been so strong. And then I'll sort of evaluate. Right. But I have a couple of goals in Yosemite this season that lend themselves to being strong. So I'm like, that's helpful. And then yes, like a cyclist though, you got to be careful about power to weight, right? Like you can't get too big. Yeah. Well, I've actually been losing a little weight as like, the thing is

holding weights while you hang. I mean, my forearms are never going to get that big. A cyclist has to worry about it because it's their butt and their thighs and it's like big muscles. But a climber, I mean, your forearms are never going to be that big. Cause I mean, mostly I'm training my hands. Right. But if you start getting, you know, big shoulders and lats and you know, you're packing on all this muscle, you gotta fill that up the mountain, right? Yeah. Well, so also I'm doing things, um, in like the six to eight rep range. So it's not like developing big muscles, you know, it's not like max, like two reps where you're just lifting some huge weight. So you're doing it six or eight times.

So, um, you're not really developing big muscles. You're developing strong muscles. I don't know. That's cool. I don't know. It seems to be working pretty well. Nice, man. We'll see.

I need a few more months to. Right. And just no, no decision yet about what the next thing is. Well, it's just, I just, I don't really have the bandwidth for the next big thing because there's a movie coming out in the,

in the fall. I'll be doing all kinds of crazy media around it. I'll be supporting the book coming out. Um, and in some ways I'm like, when does the book come out? Probably, probably with the movie.

I think everything's kind of coming. Is there a release date for the movie yet? Um, September, October. I think it'll be in festivals in September and then in theaters in October. Right. But that's the theory.

But it's funny. I think it's called Free Solo, which is cool. It was going to be called Solo, which is even cooler, but they're freaking coming out with a Star Wars movie at the same time. It's called Solo. Oh, that's right. And so then everyone's like, oh, no. It's a bummer because Solo is a better name.

Yeah, Solo is a better name, but it's like it's hard to compete with Han Solo. Yeah. I mean, what are the chances of that? I know it's unfortunate, but Free Solo is not a terrible name. You know, it's close. So when you're not like actively, you know, pursuing your prep for a particular expedition or adventure, like what's a day in the life? Just go and climb it. I mean, yeah, climbing and keep it typing working i have a bunch of different writing things going on you know just like little i don't know some italian book wants a little essay

about something and right you know just just like life yeah but uh yeah and then normally i do a lot more adventure like cardi you know going for mountain bike rides or trail runs or like fun things. Yeah. Or like big scrambles, like soloing up easy routes. But right now, because I'm trying to do the systematic training, I've really cut back on that kind of stuff so that I recover more so that I can train harder. And I'm seeing good results with that. But at some point, I'm sure I'll start, you know, going mountain biking more again or something. Where do you see yourself in 10 years or

do you even think about that like do you do you forecast yourself or think i think about it i mean in 10 years i wouldn't be surprised to have a family or something have some kids or a kid i don't know we'll see um but um but hopefully i'm doing the exact same stuff i mean hopefully i'm climbing and trying to get better at climbing, you know, doing at least a cool expedition every year or something. And I don't know. We'll see. What do you learn from hanging out with guys like Conrad? I think that's what I've learned from hanging out with Conrad.

I think that Conrad is actually a really good vision of what I would like my life to be in 10 or 15 years. He's an amazing person. I mean, yeah, he has such a good balance because he has a really good, healthy family life. He's got a nice situation in Montana where he lives. But then he still goes on big adventures. But he's been working with the North Face for 30 years. And he's still very passionate about that. And he really contributes to the brand.

And it's, I don't know, I mean, his whole lifestyle, I think, is pretty well balanced. And he's happy with it, you know, and that's the important thing. I mean, do you have mentors like him that you like run stuff by or how does it, how does that work? Or do you just rely on your instincts? I mean, yeah. I mean, I just spent six weeks in a tent with Conrad. So, so yeah, I mean, I guess I ran stuff by him a bit.

But no, Conrad and Jimmy have both always been very generous with their, with their time and thoughts. And it's definitely helpful that if I ever have some kind of weird opportunity, I can just call people like them and ask. Um, I wouldn't say any of them are specifically, you know, a mentor, but I mean, or like I was just saying with Jonathan Seeger says my trainer, I wouldn't necessarily call him a trainer, but I mean, it's very helpful to have a friend who's one of the best of the world in something who you can just, who will just come by the house and help you with it yeah or with someone like conrad just to you you you could just look to his example as inspiration for how you want to model your life yeah i mean there's several climbers like him actually tommy

caldwell is a really good example of somebody that i would be happy to model my life around his and part of buying a house in vegas last year was actually looking at people like tommy and seeing that part of the reason that he's financially secure and able to climb full-time and enjoy his life with his family is because he's been smart about you know paying off a property and having a rental and things like that like just so that he doesn't have to worry about you know becoming an unemployed climber yeah but no yeah but i don't i mean i don't worry about that with you i don't know i mean you know you're you're not going to go out and like buy a bunch of porsches and stuff like i don't, I mean, I don't worry about that with you. I don't know. I mean, you're, you're, you're not going to go out and like buy a bunch of Porsches and stuff.

I don't see you, you know what I mean? Like I tow them all behind my van. I've got the Porsche behind the van. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I'll never be frivolous like that, but, but I mean, that said, you know, all my sponsors could drop me.

I could have one big health problem or something, you know, I could get cancer or something like, um, I don't know. I mean, you never know what life is going to give you. Well, as we close it down, maybe I think it would be good to, um, just leave people with what's that? Nothing like closing on cancer. Listen, man, I think that speaks to your, your, your appreciation for the reality of death. You know, it's like you live in the moment in certain respects and understanding that, you know, all we have is today and how are we gonna make the most

of what we have in this moment, right? And your climbing is sort of an expression of that. It really, it punctuates the preciousness of life by living on that edge in a certain way. I mean, when you say it, it sounds very eloquent, but I would never be able to say it that way i'd be like i don't know i just love going climbing yeah but i mean yeah that sounds beautiful i'm like i wish i did that yeah i'm like you know well for somebody who's

listening who who you know perhaps has a an instinct to go on an adventure but feels feels trapped or feels like disempowered you know what kind of message do you want to convey to that person oh that's interesting so i mean this isn't quite a clean wrap-up but um but so interestingly um i'm supposed to give a ted talk this year um at like the conference in in april in vancouver like the big ted wow yeah which i'm like oh fantastic yeah well big opportunity yeah exactly exactly you're like way scarier than like climbing out like oh so i've sort of written an outline for it and i've like worked through some ideas and some themes and um which is all due basically tomorrow the end of the month which is tomorrow um and so i'm like oh no but um i think that

what i've been kind of struggling with or working on is to make the climbing more applicable to, to the lay person, to any average person or the lesson. Yeah. And I think that one of the lessons is, or I don't know, one of the ideas is like, what is the thing that is worth putting the work in for you? Or what is the thing that's most important to you? Like in my case, I'm talking about all cap and my preparation for free selling all cap. And, and to me, L cap was the thing that was worth the work, but basically like, what is the thing that's worth it to you? And then what is the work that you need to put into that? You know, and I'm still fleshing out the ideas. But with LCAP, you know, to me, the big moments were sort of identifying that this is something that is important enough to my life that I'm willing to do the work.

And then the moment where I'd realized that I had done all the work that I need to do, which is sort of a different way of looking at, I'm now ready to do this, you know, instead of looking at, I was like, I'm ready to climb El Cap. It's actually more of, I have done the work that I needed and therefore,

you know, being able to do it like naturally follows. But, um, I don't know. So, I mean, I think that people should just think about what is the thing that they want

to do. And then, you know, what, what are the steps to do? Like, what is the work involved? And like, I don't, I don't know. It's very much a work in progress.

No, I like that though. I mean, you know, baked into that is, is, is, uh, an appreciation for the hard work and the level to which, you know, you completely devoted yourself to this pursuit, not just El Cap, but like, you know, just climbing in general in a culture in which it's all about hacks and shortcuts, right? Yeah. That stuff drives me crazy. Yeah. I can't stand it. You know, I can't stand it. If you really want value out of your life experience, like stop trying to find the shortcut. I know. I know that. Yeah. Because when you're 70 and you look back on El Cap, you're probably not going to, it's the memory of being on the peak probably pales in comparison to thinking about all those

days of preparation that, you know, that's the meaning of it for you. Yeah. Well, I mean, the memory of being on the peak is still very excited about it, but it is true that it's years and years. But the meaning on the peak is so meaningful because of everything that preceded it. Yeah, because I've spent years working on it years thinking about it and yeah no i mean for sure for sure i mean that idea of you know like what's the life hack to mastery and you're like oh the whole by definition mastery takes years and years you know it's like you don't you don't just like

life hack it or whatever that that stuff really annoys me no because you know if if there was an easy way to do it then everybody would do it like you know i mean if it was easy then it wouldn't be hard yeah but that's i mean some things just require time and work and effort and you just well mastery certainly does proficiency not necessarily and it seems like we've we've prioritized you know adequacy over over like the appreciation for truly you know what it takes to be a master of something yeah i mean that's another one of the ideas that i've been thinking about a lot with regards to potential ted talk or something the idea of mastery and like because why is free

solo climbing so important to me and uh you know the pursuit of mastery is a big part of that like feeling like you're good at what you do example it is a it is a manifestation and expression of mastery you know yeah well so what is that thing you want to master and how much work do you have to put into it right and forget about trying to take the short route i know like yeah the yeah five minute workout you're like nobody gets fit in five minutes of course not well speaking of mastery you are on your way to usc tonight do an event with Michael Gervais. Have you met Michael yet? No, no.

I'm pretty excited about it. He's the best. I love him. I respect him tremendously. He's one of my favorite people. And he has his own podcast, Finding Mastery. So he's all about mastery. So he can show me the mastery.

And he's going to ask you questions. I mean, he knows how to get right, like deep right away. I'm pretty excited about that. And he's very gifted at that. And he's a beautiful guy. So that's going to be a cool event right away. I'm pretty excited about that. And he's very gifted at that. And he's a beautiful guy. So that's going to be a cool event for you. I'm excited. Yeah.

Please say hi to him for me. I will. All right, man. Well, thanks so much for doing this. Well, I appreciate you warming me up for Michael. Yeah. Well, hopefully you're warmed up and not out-talked. But Michael will get the best out of you.

I'm psyched. So cool, man. Thanks so much for doing this. If people want to check you out, you're pretty easy to find. Alex Honnold on Instagram. Honnoldfoundation.org, right? Yep. Contribute, right?

Donate. Come on. You can say it. Come on. I'm going to make you say it. Please support the Honnold Foundation. You're so cheap. Support our project.

Yeah. I don't know. Come on. Get over it. It's fine. You know? People want to contribute donation at the honolulu foundation.org yeah um anywhere and anything else coming up

no you're speaking anywhere else i've like all over but it's just on your website if people want to other not really stuff i don't know it's just like um i don't even yeah i mean the ted talk that'll be pretty public right um i'll be at South by Southwest actually in March. Um, the American Alpine club is doing annual dinner in February that I'm going to be receiving an award at, which for once I was like, Oh,

I get to receive an award instead of having to speak to you. Cause I've done a lot of those, a nonprofit fundraiser type things where you show up and give the keynote to like try to drop people to give to their charity. Right. I was like, Oh, for once I don't have to give the keynote.

I just have to go up and you have to give an acceptance speech no no my acceptance speech is gonna be like thank you very much i'm gonna sit back down um what are you doing at south by southwest um i talked with jimmy actually oh cool but um and then and actually i think they're gonna be maybe premiering the donwall movie which is about tommy caldwell climbing a big redondo cap um which i'm pretty excited about seeing that too cool has nothing to do with me i don't think but it's going to be an amazing movie yeah right on man anyway yeah thanks so much for talking to me come back anytime uh next if you ever need a place to park your van you can come here it's a nice time to grab a lot right perfect it's nice and flat um excellent man thanks so much alex. I appreciate it. Peace. Plants.

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