The Rich Roll Podcast - Amelia Boone Is A Human Being (And Still A Badass)

Episode Date: October 24, 2019

Today's guest is lauded for her grit. And a preternatural ability to suffer. Her name is Amelia Boone. And she is the most dominant & decorated female in the history of OCR (obstacle course racing). Over the course of her storied athletic career, Amelia has amassed over 50 podiums and 30 victories. She is a Spartan Race World Champion and 3-time World's Toughest Mudder Champion. The ultimate weekend warrior, she’s done all of this while balancing a full time career as a corporate attorney — first at the prestigious Skadden Arps law firm in Chicago and currently at Apple in Silicon Valley. Dubbed ‘The Queen of Pain', it’s a career that’s landed her magazine covers, major publication features, national television gigs, and a legion of adoring fans across the world. But it's also a career that came with pressures that drained the fun out of competition. And a mask that obscured a deeper dysfunction lurking beneath the surface. Amidst the celebration of Amelia as an unbreakable champion, prodded for her daily habits, morning routine and training regimen, she privately battled an obstacle more daunting than any race she’d endured: an eating disorder she kept hidden for the better part of two decades. Today we celebrate Amelia not for her accolades, but for a different kind of courage — the vulnerability to face her disorder. Forge a path to wholeness. And change the way we talk about about a condition that debilitates millions. I first met Amelia a couple years ago. I freely admit my projection of her steely disposition intimidated me. But slowly she began sharing more openly and about her struggles, culminating in a vulnerable blog post that laid bare her protracted struggle. Her guilt. Her shame. Her honesty. Her courage. The facade gone, I fell for the human. I wanted to help amplify her powerful message. Today I have that honor. This is a conversation about the perniciousness and pervasiveness of eating disorders. And the path towards healing. More specifically, we discuss the difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating. The distinction between anorexia and bulemia. And how Amelia's particular strain of this condition, known as ‘relative energy deficiency in sport' (red-s), led to the many bone injuries that sidelined her athletic trajectory skyward. We dive into the relationship between childhood trauma and eating disorders. The psychological consequences of starving one's self. The ‘shame spiral' that perpetuates the condition. The denial she compartmentalized with Pop-Tarts. The clarity and courage required to seek treatment. What is required to build a strong foundation for long-term recovery. And advice for those who currently suffer. A companion piece to my conversation with Dotsie Bausch (RRP 355), my hope is that this conversation — a must listen for anyone caught in the grips of this disorder — provides the necessary nuance and clarity to better understand an affliction that impacts over 30 million people in the US alone. You can watch it all go down on YouTube. Enjoy! Rich

When I've thought about, you know, talking about my eating disorder, it was in the back of my mind is like, you can't unring that bell when you do finally talk about it. And I've had multiple people tell me that, and it's not so much. I think that a lot of is that disorder thrives in shame. The disorder thrives in kind of, you know, holding it close and not, not being open about it. But at the same time, you also worry about how is everybody else going to view you now, now that they know this, and are they going to treat you differently? And it is very much something that has been, you know, this difficult dance to kind of figure out. Like, I don't, I don't want to be like the eating disorder recovery girl. I don't want to be the athlete. I don't like, this difficult dance to kind of figure out. Like, I don't want to be, like, the eating disorder recovery girl.

I don't want to be the athlete. I don't, like, this is just me. Like, I'm super flawed. I'm super complex, just like everybody else out there. And this is just another piece, you know. So I'm just trying to live authentically and stumbling through and figuring this all out. That's Amelia Boone, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast.

How's it going, people? This is the podcast, my podcast. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome. Thanks for joining me today. So, today's guest is known widely, I would say, for her grit, her ability to suffer. Her name is Amelia Boone, and she is the most dominant and decorated female in the history of obstacle course racing. 50 podiums, 30 victories, Spartan Race world champion, three-time world's toughest mudder champion. Her list of accolades goes on and on and on. She's also the ultimate weekend warrior because Amelia has accomplished all of this while balancing a full-time career as a corporate attorney, first at Skadden Arps in Chicago and now at Apple in Cupertino.

Dubbed the Queen of Pain, it's a career that's landed her on magazine covers, major publication features, and national television gigs as a commentator. national television gigs as a commentator. And along the way, she's held herself out as essentially an open book, sharing her journey on social media and many podcasts. But reflecting back, she now calls those experiences selective vulnerability, an open book appearance with a veneer of transparency that belied, that shrouded an essential truth about her life. Because while Amelia was being celebrated as this unbreakable champion, prodded for her daily habits, her morning routine, her training regimen, and her race tactics, she harbored a secret, a secret 20-year battle with food and mental health, an eating disorder, basically, that she

kept hidden and compartmentalized, which has been an obstacle more daunting than any race she's endured. However, four bone injuries, likely the result of her dysfunctional relationship with food, changed all of that. So this past summer, she summoned the courage to confront it, first through an extended treatment program, and then by sharing her story for the first time with the public. A vulnerable and courageous blog post laid bare her protracted struggle, her guilt, her shame. And all of this was motivated by a desire

on behalf of Amelia to really change the way we talk about eating disorders. And that post prompted an extended media cycle that led to a broader and more important conversation about the prominence of this condition among athletes and beyond. And today's episode is a powerful extension of that ongoing conversation. It's coming up in a few, but first, let's take care of some business. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing

and how overwhelming and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by

insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay. Amelia, Amelia Boone. So, I don't have to tell you that this woman is quite extraordinary. And this conversation was a long time in the making, and it lives up to the hype.

We covered a ton of stuff. We talked about her career, of course, before diving into eating disorders specifically. And in the context of that aspect of the conversation, we parsed the differences between an eating disorder versus disordered eating. between an eating disorder versus disordered eating. We discuss her strain, her particular version of this condition, which is called REDS, Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport,

and how this differs from anorexia and bulimia, for example. We talk about the beginnings of her disorder, how it can happen to anyone. And similar to me, this is somebody who had no terrible childhood or obvious trauma to blame for her disorder. We talk about her bone injuries and her stress fractures that kind of led her to seeking help in this format this past summer. We talk about her hiding her disorder. We discuss the psychological consequences of starving yourself and exiting the shame spiral to finally seek help, in her case, a treatment center for 90 days. And we kind of conclude

with advice for the many people out there that are continuing to struggle with eating disorders and how to better communicate with the people in our lives who do find themselves in this situation. All those things you've heard about Amelia over the years are true. She is a badass. And this new chapter, in my opinion, only underscores those descriptors like courage, grit, strength. And now we can add vulnerability to that list. I'm honored Amelia has entrusted me with helping her tell her story. It's a privilege. I don't take it lightly. And I really applaud her courage in coming forward and being a true open book.

And my hope is that this conversation, which is a bit of a companion piece to my conversation with Dotsie Bausch, that was episode 355 from March of 2018, will provide strength and provide comfort to those that struggle. And for everybody else, chances are you do know somebody who is dealing with this. And my intention and Amelia's is to provide the necessary nuance and clarity to better understand an affliction that impacts over 30 million people in the U.S. alone. So let's do it. This is me and Amelia Boo. When I look back on podcasts that I've done in, you know, like 2015 or when I was the

height of, like, it's just, I'm in such a different chapter now that it just doesn't feel, I don't resonate with it at all. And I think that, I mean, it's where I was at the time, but I think that if I look back on it now, a lot of it was very performative. I was only just, that was one aspect of myself and I was going to like hone in on that. And it just doesn't feel like me anymore. Yeah, it was all about performance and tactics and what do you eat and how do you train and what are your life habits and all of that. But from afar, I've kind of watched you on this arc,

this like evolutionary path that you've been on. And we met, I think the first time we met was at the MindBodyGreen conference, like I don't know, was it like four or five years ago or something like that?'ve been on. And, you know, we met, I think the first time we met was at the MindBodyGreen conference, like, I don't know, like four or five years ago or something like that. And I just remember like being super intimidated by you. I was like scared of you. You were like this mega champion. I think there was a hike one morning and I was like, I'm scared of that girl, man. But I think looking back on it now, I was reflecting on that a little bit this morning, and I was like, what was it about you? Yes, there's certain insecurities that I have that made me intimidated about your accomplishments and what you're able to do. But I think also, subliminally or maybe unconsciously, I felt like you also, you, you like walled yourself off a

little bit. Like you were emitting some kind of frequency, like don't get too close. Yeah. And it's interesting because I've been told that before people, uh, people call me like an ice queen or something. Um, and I don't, I never consciously projected that. I think that it's very much, I think that that for me comes from a place of insecurity myself in that very much. So I remember seeing you and I knew who you were and being very much intimidated as well, but not knowing that, that, that kind of air of standoffishness that I think that I may have portrayed a lot at the time was my own insecurities. Well, I think it's also indicative of this disease that we're going to talk about. As somebody who's been in recovery for a long time myself, I mean, our stories are very different, but there's a lot of similarities.

The lawyer thing and the 12-step thing and the ongoing you know, ongoing struggle and all of that and the, you know, ultra endurance. But, and, you know, I'm somebody who's been steeped in recovery for, you know, two decades and have worked with a lot of people over the years. And I think, you know, what it is is when you're harboring that secret, your intimacy is your enemy. So the idea of being open is terrifying to anybody because what happens if they find out? Right. What happens if they find out? And for a long time when I've thought about talking about my eating disorder, it was in the back of my mind. It's like you can't unring that bell when you do

finally talk about it. And I've had multiple people tell me that, and it's not so much, I think that a lot of is that disorder thrives in shame, the disorder, the disorder thrives in kind of, you know, holding it close and not, not being open about it. But at the same time, you also worry about how is everybody else going to view you now, now that they know this? And are they going to treat you differently? And for me too, when I've had people say,

oh, you're a great role model for my child to look up to, for my girl to look up to. And I'm like, God, if I come out about, like, am I? Like, am I now? You know, I mean, that I've been hiding all of this. And so it is very much something that has been, you know, has been kind of like this difficult, this, you know, this difficult dance to kind of figure out.

Yeah, once you let it out of the bag, you can't unring that bell. But the fact that it's eating away at your soul, you know, it's like, it's, you're a ticking time bomb, right? So when somebody says to you, oh, you're such an inspiration and a role model, you're like that pit in your stomach of realizing, like, you don't really know, you know, that, that, that fraud complex. Right. And you, you know, you don know, you don't know the entire story. And so it's for me is this feeling people ask me, like, why did you talk about it now? And I go, it's a lot, it's to kind of align my head and my heart and who I am.

Yeah, you can't be a fully integrated person unless you own that. Right. And knowing that, you know, the disease thrives in the darkness and feeds off shame, all of that, you know, it's ironic because you can intellectually understand that. And yet it's terrifying to step outside of that. Right. And I also wanted to make sure that I was actively in recovery doing things. that I was actively in recovery doing things. Right. And for so long, I kind of told myself that I was, but then I actually really wasn't. Did you believe the lie?

I knew that I was not in a good place. For how long? Oh, man. Probably, I would say for at least the past six or seven years. I would say for the entire, probably the entire time that I was in sport. I think very early on in sport, I could tell myself that I was doing well

and I could think that, you know, like, oh no, no, no, I'm just managing it. You know, like it's there, it's kind of in the back of my mind, but like, I'm doing well, I'm competing well, I'm winning races, I'm winning world championships. So how bad can it be? How bad can it be? Right? Like, I mean, I knew where I had to come from. I knew where I was when I was 16 years old. I knew where I was when I graduated college. And, you know, I was on death's door for a lot of that time. And I was like, I'm not there. So at this point, so clearly it's not that bad. Yeah. You don't fit the mold or the stereotype

of what somebody who has an eating disorder looks like. And what I connect with deeply about that is, look, we're both type A competitive people. We've both had success in our lives. And that success, at least early on in earlier phases of our respective careers, was driven in large part by self-will, right? Like, I'm going to do this. I am self-reliant. I'm taking responsibility for my path. I can't rely on anyone else. And I'm going to buckle down. I might not be the fastest or the smartest, but I'm going to outwork that person. And you quickly realize when you get results doing that, that you can leapfrog over people. But if you're also harboring an addiction, you can use that facility that you have to rationalize your behavior.

Because as long as you're waking up at four o'clock in the morning to go running, or you're meeting your deadlines at work, and you're graduating summa cum laude and all of these things, you can then say, well, I don't really have a problem. And it perpetuates the condition that then just continues to like foment and grow. Right. Cause you say, well, I'm fully functional, you know, and that's what I said. I was fully functional throughout all like the vast majority of the disease, you know? And so you say, okay, is this really a problem when I am so high achieving when I am doing all of

this? But you know, when you, when I kind of took a step back and really looked at my life in this past, you know, year or so, I said, yeah, I'm fully functional, but it feels so hollow. You know, it feels so hollow. And I thought that there could be more out there. Was that hollowness the bottom or what was it the, the, you know, multiple fractures, like what brought you to that place and that, um, you know, that sense of self-awareness where you were ready to kind of own it in a different way? I think that yes, it was, it was the string of stress injuries. It was clearly the string of bone injuries that kind of gave me a wake up call that there's something, there's something not working here,

but even more so than that, it was the fact that I would like come home to my apartment in at night after work, um, after training, and then just look around and be like, And then just look around and be like, all I have is my disorder. And it was much more that I had walled myself off from relationships, from being engaged. You know, I couldn't, I would go to all these races, but like, I wouldn't want to go out to dinner with everybody else the night before because I couldn't, it was petrifying to me, you know, and I, and I had to do my safe thing and I had to be in my safe space. And that's just a really, really hollow way to live. Um, and exhausting, very exhausting and lonely, very lonely. Um, and you spend so much

time, um, and I'm sure you can relate to this, just trying to protect all that, to try to do your thing. And it's exhausting. I was so tired of spending so much time obsessing about food. And I just, I was ready to be done with that. Right. And then every journalist wants to talk to you about it. And then you're like, yeah, I'm like, no. And that's why if you ever listened to any interviews with me, when I talk about food, I always say, oh, nobody, nobody should, nobody should take a cue for me on food. And I have been, and I will say this, I've, I will say that I have been a hundred percent truthful in all the interviews about, about that. And, you know, and I was afraid, like, what are people going to think of me now that I've talked

about these things in the past and talk about me eating Pop-Tarts and stuff? Oh, I eat Pop-Tarts. I do. Well, the funny thing about the Pop-Tart thing, I mean, that's like your signature move. Right. But what's interesting about that, like looking back now in retrospect, about that, like looking back now in retrospect is, is the extent to which maybe you're not, maybe I'm projecting, but, um, it, it appears as if that, that could act as like this foil or this mask, like, Hey, I'm so carefree about my diet. I eat pop tarts. Like it's almost like a defense mechanism. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is like a defense mechanism. I think a part of me now looking back is, is a bit overcompensation is that I don't want people to think that I have an issue. So if you're eating pop tarts all the time, clearly, clearly I don't have an issue.

Right. Yeah. Uh, you know, and I think that also, you know, eating disorders take all different forms. And so it's not just the super healthy orthorexia person that only eats fruits and vegetables. Everybody within the realm of eating disorders, it manifests itself differently. Yeah. And we're in an interesting time where everyone's talking about intermittent fasting and all these – the diet wars are afoot and people are very passionate about this. And now we're seeing these think pieces coming out that are kind of shining the light on how some of these protocols are really just eating disorders masked. It's all about your relationship to them. I mean, certainly there's advantages to intermittent fasting and good things about it. But if you have an unhealthy relationship with that practice, it can be another way of shielding like a deeper problem.

Right. And I think that in many, for a lot of people, it doesn't rise to eating disorders, but it could arise to disordered eating. So what is the technical difference between those? I do not have a right. As somebody who just came right out of treatment, you probably have all the language. Well, yeah, I will say that I will speak all of this. This is an N of one for me. And so I don't have degrees in this.

So I just want to give that caveat. But I think it really is when it, when it rises to like how, how problematic does it become in your everyday life, you know? And so I think in very thing, it's probably like with alcohol is that does it, how all consuming is it? So I don't think that there is like a hard line. I'm sure if you looked at the DSM-5 criteria between, you know, what actually is an eating disorder versus what's kind of like disordered eating practices, I'm sure that there's something

there. But you look around sometimes and you think, God, everybody has disordered eating if you look at this. And I think that that also prevents people and prevented me, I think, from seeking help. Yeah. Because it was almost like, what's the point? Everybody seems to have a messed up relationship with food nowadays.

Is there anything that, is there anything better? Can there be quote unquote normalcy? But that's a function of measuring yourself against other people as opposed to measuring yourself against yourself and whatever you feel is missing, like that hole that you were talking about. Yeah. It's like, you know, everyone gets a DUI, you know, it's like no big deal. You have to get a couple before you. No, and you can rationalize. And that's what I was doing for, at least for the past few years, was kind of rationalizing my way out of the fact that I knew I was still hanging on to my disorder. Is that I was looking around and saying, well, everybody's screwed up. So why am I so different?

And that was actually reinforced by people when I had a few people where I would tell them about my issues and they'd be like, yeah, you have an issue with food. So does everybody. Welcome to humanity. Right. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it's, it's a, it's a spectrum thing. And, you know, in your case, and I, I know I experienced this, like the universe starts knocking on your door and giving you these little signals like, Hey, you I experienced this, like the universe starts knocking on your door and giving you these little signals like, hey, you know, this might not be the right path for you. Little cracks in the firmament start to happen. And if you don't pay attention and you still just blaze that path of like self-will forward, those dramas become a little bit bigger and a little

bit bigger and a little bit bigger. It's like, it's testing your pain threshold and you and I, like you, you more than me, but you have a huge pain threshold. Like you can suffer. Your whole thing is like the queen of suffering. So it's going to have to get really bad before you're going to, you know, have a reckoning with it. And I think it has to get really bad, but I think it has to, if I look at – if I look at my trajectory and I look, look, I have 20-year history with this and that I could have probably white-knuckled the rest of my life through it without seeking more help. And I think that there was a part of me thinking that I'm 35 years old, like I should be able to handle this on my own. You know, I've that eating disorders are a young person's disease, that it's something that I, um, I was recognized. I have a lot of the shoulds that I should have, you know, gotten over this when I was in college or the multiple times that I was in treatment beforehand. Um, but it's just that kind of in the back of your mind,

you're thinking like there could be something more, like there could be a life more fulfilling and like more free if I go through this. And the cutting and baffling aspect of it is this delusion that you can solve it yourself, that you can apply your self-will to this problem because it's worked in every other area of your life. Like, why can't I, you know, make it work here? Absolutely. But the more you rely on, and you're, I mean, like you told Shane Parrish, like you were talking about self-reliance. And it was in the context of not being an entitled person. Yeah. And I understand that, but I couldn't help but think you're advocating this path of like, you can only count on yourself. And at the end of the day, yeah, people will come in and help you, but like, it's got to be you.

And I think that mentality is what keeps people who struggle with this or other forms of addiction stuck in their condition or their disease because they're unwilling to raise their hand and ask for help and then accept that help. Right. And I think that where the disconnect always happened to me because I could look at, I logically, I knew what I needed to do. Like, and in terms of, you know, rehabilitating my body, things like that, like, you know, what you need to do. You could give me a meal plan. You could tell me probably what I needed to eat or like, I knew

what I needed to do, but forcing myself to do it on my own, I just, I wasn't going to have, couldn't do it. And what happens when you realize you can't do it on your own, you then, or at least I started kicking myself and getting in this cycle of self-flagellation saying, Amelia, you know what you need to do. Why can't you do it? And for somebody who, yes, I have been super self-reliant in so many areas of my life and to not be able to apply it to this is very devastating. Yeah. It's called a shame spiral, right? Yeah. Self-knowledge will avail you nothing as they say. And, and you know, what's And what's relevant to that is I reached out to you, I don't know, maybe two years ago to come on the podcast.

And you kind of kept me at bay for a little bit. And then maybe a year ago, you're like, I want to come on. I have something I want to talk about. I have this thing with eating, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet. So that was a while ago. You had the self-awareness, the self-understanding, but you weren't ready to, you know, either own it yourself completely or, or do anything about it until recently. Yeah. I, and that's, that's very true is that I, I knew, you know, and, and I had spoken to you, um you that like, this is, this is a part of me, but I don't feel like I'm in a place right now where I'm actually doing anything to kind of, to, to make myself better.

I didn't feel like on my own anymore. And I need to go into treatment. I need to seek a higher level of care. I take myself out of my life. And to do that. And so that really was kind of the moment for me in realizing like, yes, at one point I want to talk about this. But it can't, you know, it's not now. Yeah. And I was like, great, when you're ready, you know, do it. But I didn't bug you about it.

Like you have to come to that, you know, on your own terms. Like you have to arrive at that place where you have the willingness to address it and then, you know, later on, like talk about it. But it has to be for you, right? I would imagine you've been foisted into treatment protocols in the past where you're just trying to get people off your back as opposed to really wanting it for your own life. Absolutely. And I mean, I think that's when I was much younger, that's the case. When you're 16 years old and you're thrown in the hospital, that wasn't my doing. I was kicking and screaming the entire way. Or in college, I went through the motions to get people to just, so they wouldn't pull me out of school. And this time it was, no one was telling me like you should seek treatment. And most people

didn't even know. A few close friends knew. People from my past, you know, clearly knew that I'd struggled in the past, but they didn't know that it was still bothering me. So this time, I remember calling up my parents. I was like, I'm going into day treatment. You know, I'm taking a leave of absence. And it was a very different place for me to do it all on my own without anybody else kind of, like, encouraging me. They must have been happy about that. Yeah, I think so.

I mean, I think that clearly like they've, they've seen me struggle for so long. And I, I actually realized now, you know, being in my mid thirties and I'm not a parent, but I can, I can't imagine how hard it is to watch your child go through that and to be like, they, you know, but she needs to do it on her own. Yeah. Yeah. So the day that you decided you were going to go to treatment, was there something that triggered that? Or was it just a, a, a slow awareness that one day you woke up and you're like, today's the day. It was a slow awareness. It had been kind of percolating in the back of my mind probably for the past year or so. But I kept telling myself, like, um, to do kind of just an initial intake eval. Um, and then I remember actually they, uh, they, they were like, okay, this is great. You can come in.

And then I, I was getting ready to prepare to run Barkley marathons. And I was like, no, things are going well. Like I want to run. I was like, we'll deal with this after Barkley, you know? So I was, I kept finding kept finding, I kind of pushed them off. And then I finally, and then I ended up with another stress fracture, which took me out of Barkley. And that was two weeks before. And that's, I called him up and I was like, yeah, let's do this. Now's the time. Now's the time.

Well, before I get into what that experience was like, I kind of want to track it back to the beginning. So as you said, this is something you've been living with since you were a very young girl. Right. It began with OCD, right? When you were like six or seven? Yeah, I was diagnosed with OCD probably when I was six or seven. It wasn't your classic like light switch flipping type of cleanliness thing.

And actually anybody who knows me now would laugh if they heard I was OCD because like I'm a very messy person. You don't have a Tracy Flick-like desk? No, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's just chaos. I'm very, very cluttered. So I didn't really fit that classic mold. But I remember, you know, even when I didn't really fit that classic mold, but I remember, you know,

even when I was like four or five years old, if I couldn't get to sleep by a certain time, I would throw a tantrum. Or if I, you know, if I had these different like fears and phobias that would come and go. And so those kind of started pretty early on. And then I think that when the food issues started, I think my parents just kind of thought, and I kind of thought, well, it's just another manifestation of the OCD and it will go away in a few months, kind of like the other ones did.

Yeah, it's a phase. That was just another manifestation because all the other ones kind of came and went. So this one will kind of come and go. So I think we didn't really think too much. I didn't really think too much of it. Yeah. Until you're like 16, right? When was the first, that was the first big crisis? Yeah. I mean, I don't, I try and think about when the first time when I had kind of like a disordered thought around food. And it was a pretty, it was my sophomore year of high school. And it was a pretty short timeframe from when I first started having like

thoughts about food to, you know, when I got like, when I got really sick. But I remember being a sophomore and going to a sleepover at my friend Kelly's house. And we were all sitting around, everyone was like eating popcorn. And I remember that night, all I could do was fixate on that, like feeling guilty about eating that greasy popcorn. And then the next morning, like still thinking about it and thinking about how I shouldn't have eaten that. And, and then I remember like going to my mom and being like, I can't stop thinking about that popcorn. And I don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and so, and this had been kind of, I mean, this food stuff,

I kind of just been over a span of a few months, um, where I think that I just got progressively more fearful of it. And I didn't really know why. It wasn't a conscious. I think now we think so much of eating disorders as like a. Body image. A body image thing. There was no body image involved for me at the time. Control. It was control.

It was absolutely. I think I was, you know, going through random teenage turmoil. And it was a way that I could feel kind of superior to people is that I could control what I put in my body. And it was almost this weird little game for me. It was like I could go out and do three soccer games on X amount of food and everybody else had to eat more than me. And so it became this kind of fixation like that.

Yeah, you would think that that impulse to create control in your life would come from like a chaos related trauma in the household. Like your parents split up or there's something happens where your life feels out of control, but this is the one thing that you can control. But the more I kind of learn about this world, it's not as simple as that. Like your parents love you and it seems like you grew up in a pretty functional, healthy household. So when you look back on that time, like do you have any

insights about what led, led to that impulse of needing to exert that kind of control? You know, I, the sad part is, is that I don't, um, and it's, I guess it's not sad, but I remember being in, being in, you know, recovery the first time when I was 16 and looking around thinking, almost feeling bad that I didn't have anything to blame. Like I didn't have a trauma. My parents were super supportive. We had very normal relationships with food growing up. You know, there was never any diet talk. There's never anybody on a diet trying to lose weight. There was nothing that I could point to. And I think in a way that almost made it worse for me.

Because I wanted a reason. I wanted something to be like, this is why I'm so messed up. But instead, it was just like, I got it in my head that there must be something then wrong with me. That I could have this wonderful life, these wonderful parents, this functional family, yet there were these demons in my head and I didn't know why.

Right, it makes you feel broken and also guilty. Like you're letting down these people who did right by you. Right, exactly. I mean, my parents, it's the same thing. Like there was no alcoholism in my house growing up. My parents are still married. My needs were met and all of that.

So it's confusing when you can't, you're almost like, I wish that I could say it was this. And when you can't, it's like, it doesn't give you an anchor. Right. You know, or a genesis point for this kind of thing. And you have nothing external to blame. And I think in some ways it's so much easier when you can point to something external and be like, that's it. Instead, you have to turn it all internal on yourself. And that's been a pattern through my entire life is that I will always find the internal blame first. I will

never, I don't blame anybody else, you know, but it's always, it's always me. Yeah. I would imagine there is some, imagine there is something that happened that you're unconscious of on some level. Like I had Gabor Mate on the podcast and he just flipped this equation on me and started psychoanalyzing me, asking me about my parents and all of that. And it's like his thing is all of these things result from some form of childhood trauma by well-intentioned people that, you know, we may not remember or just some emotional need wasn't being met. And maybe like you're a hyper-competitive person. On some level, did you feel like you had to be successful? Was there something unsaid in the household? Like where, you know, being driven and upwardly mobile was just an expectation. Like, I don't know. I'm, you know, I don't know, but I think it's worth, it's worth asking and exploring that. But ultimately, whatever is there doesn't really provide you a roadmap for getting better

and living your life, right? Like if you just focus on the solution, like you can go down that rabbit hole, but ultimately I don't know what dividend it pays. No. And I, and I agree that I, and I'm sure that I've looked at all different avenues and things like that, but I don't think finding the reason behind your disorder or your, you know, your, your choice of coping mechanisms is actually going to do any good. Yeah. It's not, it's not functional. No. Right.

All right, so one of the things that you've kind of always said is like, well, I wasn't really an athlete in high school, but that's not the full picture. Like you were until you developed these disordered behaviors, and then that kind of sidelined you from softball and basketball and golf and all these other sports that you were excelling at prior to that. I w I mean, I was a, I was a very good athlete growing up and I remember like being in like the local newspapers, like the fear, the fearsome pitcher, you know, that nobody wanted to face in softball. Um, but yeah, I mean, I lost a lot of weight in a short period of time and I got very, very weak. Um, and so, and I think that that was, that was part of part of the start of the demise of, of sports. Um, and then that,

you know, that clearly led to treatment and led to hospitalization. And so, yeah, I, I was a good athlete. I just became too sick to be able to compete anymore. So you have this experience where you're hospitalized between Thanksgiving and Christmas when you're 16, right? So that's your first experience with an institution. I do not wish. And this was back in, I mean, this was before there were any types of like residential treatment facilities

or like you see these nice houses that are like spa like type of treatment facilities no this was a children's ward yeah this was a children's ward at a hospital and i was on bed rest for a month um so i couldn't get out of the hospital bed um and i mean you try and tell a sophomore in high school that they can't, like, get out of bed and wasn't allowed to see my friends. That was completely cut off. I remember my parents actually snuck in two of my friends to come see me. But they just tried. I think because they thought that friends would be triggering.

I don't know. It was a different treatment models at the time. Well, your parents must have been terrified. Oh, absolutely. Um, I mean they, and they didn't tell me until after I was discharged from the hospital, but the first night they took me in there. Cause I remember, so I went to a doctor, um, they, when I told my parents, you know, about my food issues and they, the doctor like did a checkup, did all my vitals and they're like, she needs to go to the hospital right now. Um, and, um, that night in the hospital, my heart actually stopped. And my parents didn't tell me about that until after I was discharged because I didn't know. Um, but I mean, they were, they, they almost lost their daughter.

Yeah. And I think that's still kind of pains me to this day. Yeah. I mean, if your heart had stopped at home. Right. Yeah. It would have been a totally different thing. So you were really lucky. Yeah.

Yeah. It's scary and it's for real, right? And I think what's interesting about your story is that you're like, okay, well now it's life back to normal. Like when you get back out, right? Like, okay, that, that happened, but yeah, I need some therapy, but it's all going to be fine now. Right. I mean, was that the kind of approach or? Yeah, I think that. So back in the day they would kind of medically stabilize you, um, at the. And then you just went straight to kind of an outpatient therapy model. And at the time, I think that was fine for me. I was just

eager to get back to high school. In my mind, I was kind of thinking like, okay, I went down a road that I didn't want to go down. I learned my lesson. I don't want to be in a hospital for another month or so. So we'll do this thing and we'll get over it and just move on. And it seemed to work, I think, for the most part, for a few years. Well, you didn't get back into sports, though. You know, so I did a little bit. Once I was kind of more stabilized, I was able to rejoin my teams, but it wasn't the same. Um, you, I kind of lost a year of developmental time, um, where everybody else is getting faster and getting better and getting stronger. And so I came back to the team,

but I just kind of like wrote the bench too far behind, had lost too much strength. Yeah. And, and so, and much strength. Yeah. And so that's a bitter pill to swallow for sure. Do you think that you transferred some of those impulses to control your environment onto your academics? I think I had always had those control. I mean, the academics, that part was clearly always like the teacher's pet control kid from a very, very young age. My parents were always like, you can get B's and C's. It's fine. And I was like, no, straight A's for me solely.

So, but yeah, that was there. I actually, as I kind of tamped down the sports, I also went more heavily into like singing and musical theater and things like that. Right. So yeah, it just kind of manifested itself in other ways. So, but you, you graduate with great grades. You go to, you go to college, you're, you know, you're an RA and you're doing acapella and you're getting, you know, your summa cum laude and the whole thing. Like what was the college experience with this?

College I did my freshman year, I did pretty well in terms of, I thought at that point I was recovered. I would tell, I remember actually telling my sorority sisters, I recovered from an eating disorder. ED, recovered, in the past, done. Yes, in the past, recovered, done. And the sophomore year, I relapsed really hard really quickly once again and um do you know what triggered that at the time i think it was like some tumultuous relationships but it was nothing very i mean it was all of, if I look back on it now, it was all kind of your typical young adult turmoil.

Right. But it probably was, if you weren't treating it consistently over the years, like it was just waiting in the shadows for an excuse to come back out again. Exactly. And so once again, I kind of wish I had something to pinpoint on it, but I don't really. It's your fault. I know. It is my fault.

Yeah. But yeah, so I relapsed really hard my sophomore year of college and then spent like the next three years just trying to get by. and then spent like the next three years just trying to get by. And I had multiple interventions from friends from my acapella group trying to get me out of school. So it was visibly apparent. It was very, I was very, very sick. So walk me through what it's like to be stuck in that cycle, because I think there's so many misconceptions and myths

about the experience of being held captive by an eating disorder. I mean, people just think, well, just get over it, like start eating food. Just eat, right? Oh my God, if it was only that simple. I'm like, thank you very much. That had not occurred to me.

Yeah, one of the biggest misconceptions, and I think people have reached out to me and said like, I don't know how you were competing not eating. And I go, okay, well, people with eating disorders eat. I mean, that's, you know, it's just always, it's a very, very controlled manner. And when it depends, I mean, my experience has solely been with anorexia, so I can't speak for the other, for bulimia, for Benchini disorder, for the other manifestations. But it is just, it's all consuming. Food is all consuming.

And the thoughts of, you know, how to eat it, how much, how not to eat it, how to avoid detection. how to eat it, how much, how not to eat it, how to avoid detection. Um, and it is very much something that as you do get physically emaciated, your mental state also starts to deteriorate. Um, and so part of me, I look back and I go, God, how was I, I mean, how did I graduate summa cum laude in my state? You know? Um, so in my state? But the mental degradation part of it, I mean, what is that? Because there's also like a weird euphoria with it also. And that goes hand in hand with like the body dysmorphia. You look in the mirror and you see something very different than what is objective truth.

Yeah. Well, I had a lot of shame actually. Actually, I was very ashamed of what I looked like. I knew I was very sickly and I would try and hide it. So I was living, I was in college in St. Louis and being the winners and I would like put on like two or three pairs of tights under my jeans to try and hide it from people because I was so ashamed, but I, and I didn't like how I looked and I didn't like what I was doing, but I just, I didn't know how to change it. And I think that's one of the things that I, that so much of this is also habit. So when you start ingraining these kinds of habits and when you start avoiding something, for instance, then the more and more that you avoid it,

the more fearful it becomes, the more like- Power it has. Power it has. So the more you avoid food and restrict food, the more fearful you become of it. And it becomes this cycle and you just can't get out of it. I mean, you can, but- You can, but I think that powerlessness is what people have a hard time wrapping their heads around.

Yeah. Like how, why can't you just sit there and eat the meal? And your answer to that would be? I mean, I can. If you sit down in front of me and you put a plate of food in front of me, like I absolutely can. But like the, the, what are the consequences of like eating that meal? Like what, what, you know, walk me

through like what the emotional experience would be for you if you were like actually force fed something that you didn't want to eat when you're in that state. I mean, it's the, it's anxiety that just goes through the roof. So, I mean,, not eating the food is the way to cope with the anxiety. It's the way to tamp down the anxiety. But if you actually went through the process, if I sat down to eat that entire meal, like heart palpitations the entire time, just like thinking, ruminating. And then afterwards, you spend all your time ruminating about that food, about what you ate. And what's also interesting is that I love food.

People also think that, you know, people with eating disorders, like don't like the taste of food or don't know. I mean, that may be true. It's true for some folks, but like you literally at some point in treatment, I remember being like, it was almost like they gave me permission to eat. And I was so happy at the time because I didn't have an option. So it was almost like you have to eat this. Relief. It was almost like a relief to give that up. Wow.

Do you know who the, do you know this person, Eugenia Clooney? I don't. Eugenia Clooney. She's this young girl who's a YouTuber who developed a really large audience. And her eating disorder just became writ large. She just dwindled down into a stick figure. And she was putting up all these videos and lots of teen girls are following her and people are like, She was putting up all these videos and lots of teen girls are following her and people are like, you're going to die. Right. I mean, it's shocking when you see this young girl. And then she kind of disappeared for a while.

And last week, this big YouTuber called Shane Dawson, he's like one of the biggest creators on the platform, made a little mini documentary where he went and visited her to like see how she was doing. And it's fascinating. He goes to her house and he sits down with her and apparently she had just come out of some kind of treatment and he's trying to engage her in what that was like and how she's doing. And he's, you know, trying to say the right things and he's deeply concerned about her. But it was clear to me that this is somebody who, who really hasn't fully owned what's going on. Like she's young and she couldn't even say that she had an eating disorder and she's wearing a big sweater. And it was clear that she was still, you know, either very early in her recovery or still not even, you know, not really in recovery at all. And if you watch it with an objective eye, it's like a, I mean,

it's like an hour long video on YouTube. I'll put a link in the show notes. Um, you can see the disease like written all over her face and how baffling it is because she's just not really connecting the dots. Yeah. And I think that in, in it's very, I mean, I look back at times when you're like, I wasn't, you know, connecting the dots. And I think that when you're very, very sick, sometimes it's hard to, and you can't see objectively and you can't trust your own eyes. You can't trust yourself. And I stopped trusting my body. I stopped trusting everything. And that's a very paralyzing place to be, you know, in that you just don't feel like you have a way out at all. And yet you perpetuated this for quite some time, like through law school as well. Like you had some dark experiences in law school.

Yeah, law school school was so I graduated from college and part of the in college I kind of realized okay I I something needs to be done and and um so I went to I graduated from college got in my car with my mom and drove cross-country um to a residential treatment facility down in Carlsbad. And then I was there for a little bit. And actually that was the first time where I think I finally embraced, like fully surrendered. Like I outed myself on everything that I had been doing to kind of lie and steal and cheat my way through, you know, pseudo eating

disorder recovery. Um, so I actually kind of got myself in like a good solid state before I went to law school, but probably coming straight out of residential treatment into law school was not a great idea because as you know, law school is a pressure cooker. How long was that treatment experience? Uh, I was there, I think about five, I was supposed to be there about eight weeks, but I think I only ended up being five because insurance ran out. Right.

And, you know, it's like these treatment facilities are like $1,200 a day. Yeah. So. Yeah, it's all about like the aftercare. Like what's your program gonna be when you get out of this? Right.

You know, and if you don't have that set up and you're not making that your number one priority, again, you're just, you're going to revert back. Yeah. And so I set up a team in Seattle where I was in law school, but it was still very much, I mean, the chaos of being a one L and then the whole, like your one L grades count for everything. And I mean, I almost dropped out of law school like three or four times, probably the first and only time in my life that I've ever identified as being depressed, you know?

And so it was a very tough, it was a very, very tough transition. Highly would not recommend that. And was there no exercise going on during these years yeah so the treatment model at the time and um probably for for good reason um was that or this was the thinking at the time was that you need to eliminate all movement um and i was also at a very at a stage at a physical state where it would be unsafe for me um Um, and so I didn't, I would say, so between height, I graduated between like my freshman year of college through probably my second year of law school, I didn't do any type of exercise. Um, none. Wow. Um, and, but I was, I, I was, I was a mover. I've always been a mover my entire

life, you know, like I, I like to move and I like to be active. So I wanted to figure out how to go back to that. But for some people, part of their disorder is, is movement is exercise. Um, and I was, I was fearful that it could be a slippery slope for me. Yeah. Yeah. The real problem is the underlying sense of uneasiness that drives you to feel like you have to control your environment. That can be manifest in your relationship with food, but it can be also manifest in your relationship with exercise or your studies, your academics, like your job, like all of these different things are outlets for that, you know, sort of ill-conceived compulsion that you have. Like the food thing is

just how it manifests for you. It can be alcohol, it can be drugs, it can be gambling, shopping, whatever. And when you kind of address the relationship with food, it doesn't necessarily, like you may be kind of white knuckling it, but if you still have that, it's going to find another way to eke out. And it's interesting how you see so many people in recovery in the ultra world. There's a reason for that. Oh, absolutely. It's like the percentage has to be crazy high. It's super high. And I think the problem is that when it comes to, for somebody who's in recovery for drugs and alcohol,

for instance, or for sex addiction, they would say, well, exercise is a healthy outlet for you. For somebody who's in recovery for an eating disorder, all of a sudden you have to question, is exercise a healthy outlet for you? And that's actually a lot of the work that I did when I was at Opal was to try and untangle, because I had a lot of questions in my mind too, of whether, whether the running, you know, and whether the athletics was part of the disorder. Right. And to try and decouple those.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so hard because you love the sports. Right. Right. And this is making your life better in so many ways. So to objectively kind of deconstruct the extent to which it's contributing to your disorder is not only difficult, but it has to be like, if you come to the conclusion that yes, there is a disordered aspect to this,

then you have to be prepared to dismantle this identity that you've constructed about who you are. Absolutely. And, and that in that whole whole feeling of grief and loss that goes with that. Though I do have to say, I think having so many injuries, I've kind of have gone through that grief and loss in a separate. Yeah. I actually, and I've said this, I said this to my treatment team, and that actually one of the best things in terms of separating my, the eating disorder from sport was being sidelined with injury because I all of

a sudden then had to kind of, it was like a forced separation. You had to reckon with it. Right. I had to reckon with figuring out like, who am I beyond this? And then also like, is this part of it? Or is it, you know, is this a good, healthy outlet for me? Or is it something that's driven, you know, by disorder? Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine that your answer to that

is constantly evolving right now. Yeah, because, I don't know, through my own lens and my own experience, when people say to me, like, oh, you transferred one addiction for another, I'm like, yeah. You know, I can't, to a certain extent, that is true. Like, I think people who dismiss that out of hand are not being intellectually or emotionally honest. So I'm always monitoring that. Like, what is my relationship to this? Is it healthy? Is it unhealthy? And it's always a little bit of both, I think. But in the balance of things, it's improving my life more than it's denigrating it. Yeah. And I think that what I've kind of realized, and clearly I still question this all the time, but you have to look at your intentions behind the movement and

intentions behind what you're doing. And I've realized that there are, for me, there are certain forms of exercise that could be more disordered that aren't as like healthy. And then, um um for my mental state um and then that's also part of the reason why i kind of moved from like the obstacle racing over like into the more endurance side of things is is realizing that the competitive um obstacle racing like circuit for me could be very unhealthy. If I got caught up solely in the competition, solely in the podium, solely in, in, you know, things like that. Whereas then if I looked at things like doing the Barkley marathons that were your chance of failure is 99.999. It's you and you. Yeah. That to me was coming from a very different place. Um, then, um, to me, was coming from a very different place than the Spartan racing circuit. Yeah, that's about winning and other people and competition.

And the ultra world is really like these soul explorations in certain respects. I mean, you want to win, you're competitive or whatever,, it's ultimately not about anyone else other than your relationship with yourself. And there's something about those training for those races and participating in them that forces you to confront yourself in a really kind of profound way that probably doesn't happen in a more compressed kind of competitive event. Yeah. And it's actually one of the reasons when I first started getting into sport, I mean, I was 27, 28, um, that I shied away from races that were, um, actually like timed and ranked and judged and had placements. You know, I, I started out doing Tough Mudder solely because there was no competitive aspect to it. Cause I knew that that could be like a dangerous path for me. And then look what happened.

I know. Well, look what happened. And then, and, and then, you know, and the things that then came along with that. Well, it's amazing because you became a prisoner of your own success. Like you became so wildly successful in a, in a manner in which I, you know, I would imagine you didn't, you couldn't have ever expected. But then with that come shouldering the expectations of suddenly all these other people and sponsors and the media who are like, you're the queen of pain. And like, you're the, you're the hardest person. And you

know, like you're, you're, so the expectation is like, you're going to win all these races. You're going to beat all the men. You're going to kick everyone's ass and you're going to suffer more. And, and so when you line up for every race, like just, okay, like I have to, I have to like, you know, dance for everybody else. Once again, like it's an unsustainable model. And I think going back to that first experience of meeting you and, and having this sense of who you are at that time, like I've watched you evolve from that person. Like when I first started really getting interested in what you were doing, it's like,

oh yeah, she's kicking ass in all these races. But like, I was like, all right, you know, she's a badass. But then when you pivoted to realizing that you had to find a way to bring joy into it for yourself and like release the pressure yeah that pressure valve um that's when i was like and you started writing about it and i was like oh now now i'm really interested in what you have to say and and that's where i think you know everything that you've done and undergone um that you're experiencing right now as a result of like what happened with that, right? So it was almost like that pressure valve became too much.

You were compelled to like figure out how to have a different relationship with yourself in sport that then kind of catapulted you on this trajectory of personal growth that is sort of culminating now in everything that you're doing and talking about. Yeah. I think I really, it is kind of, it was a, you know, a piecemeal process. I think that that kind of set me up in, in taking a step back and saying, okay, like I need to reformulate my relationship with sport was kind of the first step to then ending up

reformulating my relationship with myself. Um, and it was just that the sport aspect was easier to address than, you know, the, the fundamental, you know, the, the eating disorder part of it. So it kind of started there, but it is very very i mean they're it's so i wish that i could segment them and and say that they're not not related but they're completely of course they're related yeah yeah um wow all right so somehow you get through law school. And then you end up in Chicago at Skadden. Yes. You worked at Skadden, didn't you? Not as a lawyer.

I was a legal assistant in the New York Skadden office right out of college before law school. And you still went to law school? I know, that's what everyone says, and that's what I ask. This is how disconnected from myself I was. I was the world's what everyone says. And that's what I asked. This is how disconnected from myself I was. Like I had, I was the world's worst paralegal. I was, that place was so huge that I could just hide in my office and like avoid the phone and like pretty much get away with not doing anything. And I became, my, my skillset was like avoiding work.

That's amazing. I actually knew some associates like that too. I mean, I worked there for two years and I had a whole crew of like young, you know, right out of college friends and we, you know, we would run around the city. And so I had a great time and it's not totally fair. Like I, you know, I did my job or whatever, but it wasn't exactly a fulfilling, you know, environment. And I'm like, man, I can't believe I went to, I just went to law school because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And I'm like, man, I can't believe I went to, I just went to law school because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And I didn't really, didn't really occur to me to even explore doing anything else. But I was there 1989 to 91, like it was like in the middle

of like crazy M&A boom and that place was like on fire. So I can't imagine like being a lawyer there. Yeah, I know. I know. You know, I was in the Chicago office, which I think that helped a little. We were not as crazy as, I think just the New York culture for law firms is really, really tough. Chicago, you get a little bit more of the Midwestern vibe and whatnot. I actually loved being at a firm. Um, I actually really, really enjoyed my time at Scadden. It was, I was in, um, so I graduated in 2009. So basically right after everything, I mean, Bear Stearns had collapsed, Lehman's had collapsed. And so I went into restructuring and bankruptcy. Um, so we were very busy, but it was kind of like business is good. Business is good. Right. Uh, yeah. The

schadenfreude of, of, of all of that. Um, but, um, I actually really enjoyed it. I just, I think for me, I didn't, I didn't see, I saw partners and I was like, that's not what I want to do, you know? Um, but you, how long were you at Skadden? Uh, six years. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that was, you know, you stayed another year or two and and you were, that's the partner deal. Well, oh, God, I know. Skadden's a single-tier partnership, so it's more like 11 or 12. Oh, okay. But I think I just also, I really like, in legal work, I really like being in the weeds,

and I really like kind of the drafting and the process and things like that. And then I realized like, as you get older, you look at partners, all their time is spent like the schmoozing, the business, not all the time, but schmoozing business development. And that just, I was not, I wanted to do like the grit work. See, I would have preferred the other way around. Yeah. Network. I was that person. Somebody else do all that work. Like, you know, you can go lock yourself in that conference room and go through like 300 boxes of documents. I'll go out to dinner with the client. Networking events. I would find any excuse to avoid them. So I was like, that's, that's not for me. Well, and this is the period of time in which you reconnect with being an athlete and you have all this success. And I remember just reading about you and kind of watching this whole thing unfold and thinking like, you're winning every

race that you're in and you're working. Like I know and appreciate like the pressure cooker environment in which you're practicing law. And I just kept thinking like, she's one of the few people that could actually make a living as a professional athlete and define, you know, a new way of being a professional athlete and like, leave the law and like do this full time. The law is always going to be there. You can, you can go back to these law firms. And I was confused as to why you, you like having both. You, you like having both. Yeah.

I, I, well, I could technically have made a living, um, as, as a professional obstacle racer. Um, but for me, it would have changed the character of what I did. I mean, if I thought I put enough pressure on myself to go out and win world championships, when I knew that I could go back to like, you know, my law job that if I didn't win the world championship, it didn't mean that I wasn't going to be able to eat the next day. Um, so in my mind, if I made it my profession, it would change the character of what I was doing, which is already a very tenuous relationship. I mean, if I, if the competition was getting to me

and I'm just like your ultimate weekend warrior, imagine if that was my livelihood. So it was a place for me of being like, nope, nope, gonna try and still keep that joy in there, which had its ups and downs. You still had to meet your maker with it, even though you kept your job. I know.

So I don't, I mean, I don't know had I decided to quit and become, you know, a professional obstacle racer. But this is also at the very, very early stages that I got in the sport, like before anybody would even call it a sport. And today, some people still won't call it a sport. But it's blown up. It has. You know, it's a huge thing. It has. And you, I mean, you definitely could have stepped out and like made a career outside of the law. Yeah. won't call it a sport so but it's blown up i mean you know it's it's a huge thing and you i mean you definitely could have stepped out and like made a career outside of the law yeah i made that choice

yeah but i i never i never actually seriously considered it like beyond just kind of brief moments here or there of being like well could i and i said yeah but i'm already almost 30 years old who becomes a professional athlete when they're 30 years old? You do. I was going to say, I was like, some people do. Were there ever moments, though, where you're getting ready, you know, it's Thursday or Friday afternoon, and you've got world championships that weekend or some big race where the partner calls and says, hey, we're all meeting, you know, tomorrow, Saturday morning at the firm in the conference room. I had to, like like call it off. Because that's the way that it works.

Yeah. There were, I did skip a lot of races last minute. I always booked flights refundable because I just, because I didn't know. Never happened around a world championship. Those I actually did make sure that I took vacation time, even though we know that doesn't necessarily always mean that you're protected. I took vacation time, even though we know that doesn't necessarily always mean that you're protected. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, there were, I remember I would be, you know, drafting or sending out emails at 10 PM the night before a race, you know, that's just part of it. Or I would finish the race and then go check my email and be like, please, nobody emailed me while I was out.

And they're like, why aren't you responding? And this was, I think I still had- Where are you? Yeah, I think I still had Blackberry at that time. You're covered with mud. I know, I know. You just crawled out of a mud pile after carrying a log through a lake or something. And I'd be like, I'm sorry, we didn't have any cell. And that was the issue. A lot of these races, there's no cell phone service

at a lot of these venues. So then I'm sitting there thinking like, oh my God, am I getting emailed from somebody right now? That creates more anxiety than just checking it. And what was the food relationship like when you were competing at your best and during this phase? I think that I was kind of rationalizing everything that I was doing in terms of eating as like, well, I'm performing well. So it doesn't really matter. I was like, I'm doing in terms of eating as like a, well, I'm performing well. So it doesn't really, you know, Matt, I was like, I'm doing well. So what I'm eating must be okay.

Yeah. And doing well is an understatement. I mean, you're suddenly you're on the cover of all these magazines and you're getting all this attention. Like the accolades are just raining down upon you. So I would imagine that's disorienting when it comes to really taking honest stock and inventory of your behavior. Yeah. And I think that I, to be totally honest, my eating habits were probably have probably been very similar these through the entire time. It's just that it took that many years for it to catch up to you. Yeah, probably. I mean, that's what I've said. It was like, you can delude yourself in your mind for so long that you are doing fine, but the body doesn't

forget as easily. And, um, you know, after a while it starts to catch up. And I think I also probably didn't realize at this point, you know, that I was like not getting periods and that my bones were deteriorating and things like that. And so it just, it became a, after a while your body will break. Yeah. Well, you were diagnosed with osteoporosis when you were in high school, right? Yeah. So when I was 16, I think they did, they did a DEXA and, you know, all the Z scores at the time. They don't call it osteoporosis at the age, they call it osteopenia. But it had, so I was diagnosed with that when I was 16. I had another one done when I was in my early 20s and it had gotten better. And so I think that they were like, okay, it can reverse and increase from there. But I did know, I have a history of this and I broke a lot of bones when

I was even a little kid because cause I have just have a small bone frame. Right. So you're coming off this, you know, streak of just winning all these races and then suddenly injuries start to appear. I mean, is that how it kind of begins? Well, first there's the, there's the sort of reconciling with the pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, where was the timeline? So what happened was that I basically at the end of 2015, I had just won like the, my third world's toughest matter. And I remember I was ready to walk away. Like I was ready to walk away from the sport just because I just, it was, I just felt overwhelmed by the pressure. And I almost thought like, maybe it's just go out on top, you know, like won these, these titles and just sail off into the sunset.

And I think I was kind of just tired of the circuit. And then I actually discovered ultra running or I thought kind of thought about that to give it a go. Um, at this point I'd also, this was when I, I left Skadden, um, moved cross country to, um, go to Apple. What was that decision about? That decision was, I think I, in my mind, it was partially to have a better lifestyle, more suited to, um, competing in terms of that. I worked actually just as much now as I probably did at the firm, but it was just not, it's on a more regular type of like hourly that in-house lifestyle, a little bit more conducive. Also, I knew I wasn't going to be a partner. Um was pretty middle-of-the-road associate and was not on my radar.

It's not freezing cold. Yeah. And then I also wanted to get back west, get back out west, because I'm born and raised in Portland. And so that was part of all that went into it. And I remember coming out to California and seeing like the beautiful trails. The trail had like 10 minutes from the Apple campus and being like, yup, there I am. And so I started getting targeting ultras and I ran Sean O'Brien down here, the 100K in 2016,

got a golden ticket to go to Western States. And I was like, woo, started training a bunch more, knew nothing about how you should like increase. No coach, right? No coach. Yeah. You're so smart. What's wrong with you?

I know. No coach. Well, because with obstacle racing, the vast majority of my training was actually CrossFit. And then i ran maybe like 15 to 20 miles a week but it was nothing and then within a i look actually at my training logs i did kind of keep one and i went from running 15 to 20 miles a week to then prepping for western states and running like 80 90 miles a week in like two months yeah So that's when I broke my femur. So that was the first injury.

Maybe anyone would have broken their femur doing that. And so when I think that the femoral stress fracture, I was able to write off as kind of like a, the training was not dialed in. And so with one bone injury, you can probably do that. But when they start to pile up, it's no longer. So you have this femoral fracture, which is no small thing, but you don't. I mean, it's impossible to get you to sit down for five minutes. Like you're just doing all kinds of crazy training around it.

Yeah. Like eight mile crutches, hikes and whatever. Well, the funny thing is that people talk about that Spartan race that I did on crutches and that had nothing that was, that was mainly for, I still, I still am glad that I did that. Cause that was for like the adaptive athletes and seeing a different experience that wasn't about trying to race. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, as soon as I was cleared to do anything, which was

literally the day after I got the diagnosis, I was in the pool with a pool buoy between my legs trying to swim, trying to do anything. And I could to like still be an athlete. And I think also at this time, all of a sudden I had been managing my eating disorder, but then I was then looking at four months of no running and I didn't know how to feed myself. Right, because part of managing your eating disorder meant an exercise routine, right? Like, you know, your calculus about what to eat is very much informed by how much you're training. Right. And when you're benched, suddenly that equation gets thrown out the window and you've got to figure out a different way of dealing with it. Yeah.

But I also, I think that I could, I go, well, so many of my other athlete friends have that exact same feeling too when they all of a sudden are injured and they go, I don't know how to eat or like, I should probably stop eating as much. And so for me, I sat there and thought, okay, well, that's just normal. That's not an eating disorder. They don't have eating disorders. So does that mean I have an eating disorder? Like, you know, so I was part of that rationalization. It's hilarious that you're confused about asking yourself that question, though. Well, I thought I said, well, I mean, I did have an eating disorder, but is this part of it now? And I think that that's really hard to untangle a lot. Yeah. So it becomes indelibly clear, though, when you suffer the second fracture, right? Like when you finally

are able to kind of train again and then you fracture your sacrum. Yeah. Um, I, I mean the, the femur stress fracture is hard for me because I was trying to do everything I could to stay in shape and to get back for world championships. And, um, I didn't realize it at the time. Um, but I dropped a lot of weight when I was injured, um, which, and I, it was not intentional. And, um, and I think a lot of it, I also am a body type that, and I've realized this too, is that when I run, I actually, my body gets larger. Um, I put on muscle and things like that and versus, and I build it really easily. Um, but yeah. And so I got, so I dropped a lot of weight and then ended up with a sacral stress fracture, which was clearly like a sacral stress fractures can be training errors, but they're

generally like, there's something going on in your body. That's not right. And, um, that was when I kind of started to think like, this is getting out of control again. Cause also what happens is when you, um, when, you know, when you start to, when you start to like lose weight, you can also then unintentionally get back into like the mental state that there, there this research about how, about, you know, set points and people in their set points. And that when you go into like a starved state, you're like the obsessions become that much worse. Are you, are you aware of the key study? I don't think so. Okay. So back in the 40s, it was the Minnesota starvation experiment where they basically took, you know, a group of healthy adult men and they starved them. And you can't do this nowadays because, I mean, like clearly there's a lot of reasons.

There's a constitutional amendment. Right. Exactly. But these men volunteered to be housed and basically starved. I can't remember how much food they gave them, but it was so minimal. And they started exhibiting all of the traits that you see people with eating disorders. Oh, wow. They can actually provoke it in people. people down and they, I think they saw very much because the point of the study was actually to figure out what was going on in like the Nazi concentration camps. But it's still to this day, one of the best studies and the only really study that we have about the effects of starvation on people and what that does to their mental state. So what is that specifically?

Like what they become more body dysmorphic or more like fearful of food. Yeah. So the more that they, you actually like withhold food from people, then they, they will become fearful or they'll start hoarding it. I know they'll start rationing it. So you see with a lot of people with eating disorders that they may take a very long time to eat a meal or something. So these men would be like, well, I only get this amount of calories a day, so I will stretch it out. They would start obsessing over cookbooks, recipes.

Nowadays you probably see this on Instagram, people looking at food porn. And they would just by not feeding your body, then all of those things became so much worse. Right. And it's funny. It actually, the first few weeks that I was, or the first week that I was there at Opal.

And I remember finally, like I was full, like really full. And I go, you know, it's funny. I've stopped obsessing over food because I'm not hungry. When you're fucking hungry,

like you obsess over everything. It's amazing that when you're fucking hungry like you obsess over everything it's amazing that when you actually feed yourself the thing the thoughts that goes away yeah that's amazing but it's not as simple as that but yeah so it's an interesting it's interesting what actually just the physical starvation will do to your mind and it doesn't have to be you know when people think starvation, they think zero food, but it's just- It would be interesting to apply a similar study to what goes on neurologically during intermittent fasting or the seven-day fast, because it's so the rage right now. And, you know, are we having the real conversation that we need to have around

this? Like you'll hear a lot of anecdotal evidence that, oh, I'm more mentally focused or, you know, I can pay attention better, but what is happening hormonally and neurologically that's contributing to that and how much of that is healthy versus, you know, leading you towards that, you know, disordered relationship with food. Well, and I think that the more that you get, you see people do that then with like their cheat days and then they just go like hog, you know, they'll restrict, restrict, restrict, restrict their food intake. And then just like one day a week go hog wild and then go back to, so it's just this cycle. I don't understand that at all.

And, you know, and, and I think that, I think that it's tough because I don't think diets and things like that cause eating disorders. But if you have a predisposition to that kind of stuff, that's clearly not helping. And, you know, we've, we're taught so much that we should not listen to our hunger cues or that, that we should, you know, redo anything to like suppress our appetites. Like when did having an appetite become a bad thing? Yeah. You know, there's so much about the culture right now

that's tough. And I think with the, you know, the diet wars that we're seeing or the way that people talk about diet on social media and on YouTube, et cetera, it's easy for people with disordered eating proclivities to hide behind whatever protocol they're advocating, whether it's vegan or paleo or keto or, you know, fat, whatever it is. You can kind of become,

you see people who you can kind of tell, like, this person has a fucked up relationship with food and they're there just, you know, like singing from the rafters about how great a certain diet is. But beneath that is an unhealthy obsession, like this obsessive kind of thing that's driving the whole machine. Yeah, absolutely. And then there's a lot of, there's a fair number of studies that show that if you forbid certain things in your life, you're seriously going to then clearly crave it more and more. And so the people who say, I can only eat. You have to make it evil. Right.

Exactly. Or you can only eat between X periods of time. And we are creating this machine. And it's really just this entire. The thing is now it's not even people say it's not a diet. It's a lifestyle change. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's still diet culture just under a different like. Yeah, that's a good point.

And if you look at it, so many of these diets are consumers selling products. They're selling things to us. It's amazing when a new kind of diet comes on, you know, online, then how quickly the marketplace comes in to like fill it with all of these products. And it becomes like co-opted and packaged in a certain way and then marketed and sold to us. Absolutely. I mean, if you look at now,

everything on the shelves is keto this, keto that, you know, and then it's no different than growing up in the 90s. It was low fat, fat free, everything. And I think that's really hard for people to kind of like sort through a lot of the times. Especially when we have to eat. Like I can just not drink or do drugs. And it's, you know, obviously this is elementary, but like you have to eat every day. Yeah. So you're forced to confront your condition in the most, you know, tactile way three times a day at least. Yeah. And it's what's interesting.

And I've told you that, you know, I have a history of going to AA, OA. Right. Because back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, a lot of people treated eating disorders like an addiction because that was a model that we had, that the A model worked very well. I remember going to a lot of AA, OA meetings during law school, thinking like, man, this OA thing doesn't seem to be working well for anyone. And I think because there's a different, AA works great because you guys like, or, you know, you can be with other people and not, and be around alcohol and things like that doesn't work for food because you have to eat to live, you know?

And so it's not as simple as just avoiding it. And a lot of the mindset has gone away from treating food like an addiction that it's not, it can't be treated like an addiction. And so I don't know, the science is still morphing on it and the treatment models, but. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I don't suffer from that from that condition and I don't have a scientific opinion on it, but I think that if there is a disease aspect to it, it's not the food, it's the impulse to control

like we were talking about before. And 12-step, whether it's OA or AA, is all about like getting you to turn your gaze inward and do an inventory of how you're behaving to get clarity on, on who you are and like make amends and, and, you know, be able to get, you know, clear on what your character defects are and then have this community that holds you accountable. Yeah. And, and that's, it was actually kind of sad for me when I remember looking back into treatment, you know, two or

three years ago, because I loved the 12-step culture and I found it very, very helpful for me. And I'm being like, wait, no one's really doing that for eating disorders anymore. I have friends that are in OA. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. It seems to do. I mean, I have some friends that have been for a long time. They find it to be helpful. I've never been to an OA meeting, but you know, a lot of them are people who are cross-addicted. Like they're people that I know from AA, they just go to both, you know. It's all the same thing. Like

the more I kind of, you know, live on earth, I start to see all of these things as one thing and something that every single human being, you know, can identify themselves on a spectrum. Like we're all guilty of behaviors or thought patterns, activities, substances, whatever it is that we compulsively do on some level. Maybe it's minor for a lot of people, but that we can't seem to stop ourselves from doing, even though we're suffering adverse consequences.

Like, hey, why are you constantly dating assholes? Or, you know what I mean? Like whatever, why do you have to go to the mall three times a week? Or why are you watching soap operas at 11 a.m.? Like all of us have our little vices and in certain respects, the person who can't pull the needle out of their arm is the easy case

because the problem is so easy to diagnose and treat. Whereas somebody, food, it's harder, you know, the relationship thing, it's even hard. It's like, it's really hard to like deconstruct what the actual problem is. But I think they're all manifestations of something very similar that we all share just in being human. Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I've realized with the number of people that have reached out to me, um, you know, after I, you know, opened up about this, a lot of people would start an email saying like, I don't have an eating disorder, but I have X, Y, and Z, or I've struggled with X, Y, and Z. I'm like, it doesn't, you know, food was my coping mechanism. We all have a coping mechanism. You know, if food was food was that for me um and

so but it's underneath it's all the same language you know and then a part of me and then i get in my mind and i'm like why like then why are we i mean or and like what is it about the human condition then that like we're all currently in this day and age it seems that everybody seems to be struggling with these something underlying things. Yeah. And what's the solution? Maybe life's just too easy and comfortable. I, God, I think so too.

Yeah. Are you talking about, people talk about that's why, you know, why ultramarathons and everything are so- Right, this is why this whole world exists. Yeah. People have to figure out how to inflict some pain on themselves. Mm-hmm. And I'm part and parcel of that.

To feel alive. I know. You know? Right. Well, you've had, you know, your journey through this from super competitive to finding joy in it. And now this, you know, like latest chapter. How, well, first, actually, to i want to get into like what actually happened at opal so you go you go to the you go to the treatment center like what is the experience

like what is the protocol of trying to understand how to you know resolve this issue and get you on a better path yeah um i mean every treatment facility is a little bit different. So I was in a day patient. So it was like eight to six PM. And then you do all your meals and your snacks there. And it really is 10 hours a day of talking about your feelings, which I actually think is incredible. It's awesome. Here is how I think the world, this is how I think the world is going to be a better place. Everybody needs to go talk about their feelings for 10 hours a day. Everybody should go to treatment. I know. Treatment's the best. Anybody can benefit from treatment. You get to like opt

out of your life and just go to this place. And all you do is work on yourself. Yeah. The whole time. It is. But I think that I finally, what I needed to do was I had to create space for myself to finally actually confront everything. And the first few days, I remember kicking and screaming. I remember calling up my parents, calling my friends, being like, no, this place is not for me.

They let you use the phone? Yeah. Well, so it wasn't, I stayed with my sister. So it was eight to six p.m and then i had oh i slept at home i was wondering because you were like posting on social media throughout so yeah yeah i didn't some people got mad at me that i didn't clarify that i wasn't in a residential or inpatient facility because you owe them an explanation right but i was like i didn't want to i didn't want to spend my time being like this is a partial hospitalization program and it's 50 hours a week. But yeah, so I didn't warrant the inpatient level of treatment.

that a lot of what they used at Opal and a treatment modality is radically open dialectical behavioral therapy, which is for people with, um, diseases of over control, um, which really spoke to me because everything in my life has been about that over control piece. And then just trying to take a step back. And when you, when you strip away all of your coping mechanisms, so you strip away the ability to control food. I stripped away, you know, the exercise sport piece, um, which, you know, I'd kind of, I'd kind of done the work on exercise sport piece through injury and through rediscovering joy. And then all of a sudden you're sitting there and you're looking at yourself and you're like, okay, now this is me. Like I've gotten rid of my coping mechanisms and you kind of like, you feel very, very raw.

And you know, I'm sure you can relate to that. Yeah, super vulnerable. What about the illusion that you're in control at all? Yeah. Let's start there. Yeah. The whole like impulse to control is actually just a fabrication. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you can control what you put in your mouth, but you're not really in control of anything. No, it's controlling you. Like decoupling that relationship is like the big puzzle piece. Yeah. I think. And really just like embracing the fact that like you're not in control and that the path to healing is about letting go and surrender, which for a type A personality who's holding on to everything and is trying to will their way in the world, that's like telling somebody that

you have to, you know, just wave the flag of defeat. So it's a very difficult pill to swallow and to really just even grok. Yeah. And, and it's also, it's so humbling too, because for the first few days there, I'm like, wait, I can't go to the bathroom by myself. You know, like I, somebody has to go to the bathroom and flush the toilet. Yeah. You're in a mental institution. Right. And that you, you, you, And there is so much like, okay, like I just fully surrender. And it is something that is so humbling in so many ways. And I think that that's the – I almost – like you get that fight or flight response. And after that first week, I was almost like,

I'm packing up. I don't need this packing up, going back down to San Jose. Um, but I'm so glad I stuck through it. Um, and then by the end of my time there, I was almost like, no, wait, but no, I don't want to go. I just want to talk about my feelings. Yeah. Well, then it gets scary to go back into the world. Yeah, it does. And I think that that was- I have to make my own decisions? It was part of my thinking. It was actually part of the things that kept me out of treatment, I think, for a while and like seeking treatment because I was afraid that, or I had seen stories of people who almost like,

there's just like revolving door of treatment facilities because like then you don't know anything else because the big bad world is scary out there well it would be great if we could all sit around and talk about my feelings for 10 hours a day but that's not how life is so it's almost like you know not staying there too long at the same time so what is the protocol now like how do you make sure because you've been in you know treatment centers before and have seen what has happened when you haven't had like active, you know, aftercare and, you know,

really made your recovery a life priority. Yeah. Um, you know, that, I mean, I think that's the greatest unknown. Um, and that's, so you set up, I set up as much guardrails and support as I could, um, coming back here. I started work initially part-time and then I was still doing more like an intensive outpatient. So it was kind of doing the two and then you, so you slowly step down. And then right now I have kind of an outpatient team and then really just setting up a support network. And for me, I have a great support network, but it's making sure that I

actually use it and actually reaching out and being saying like, hey, I need help. And this thing that we talked a lot about at treatment is outing yourself and just saying like, hey guys, I have to out myself right now. I'm having really bad disordered thoughts and I just need to tell somebody and put it out there because when I put it out there, then it doesn't hold as much power over me. Yeah, and you have to do that in real time when it's occurring because the tricky thing is when that moment arises,

when you're staring at a plate of food and you're thinking about not eating it, it's too late. Then they're like, call somebody. But that train left the station a long time ago, maybe months ago. Like it's about the daily habit of checking in with people and people who know you and can monitor like, hey, you're a little off today. What's going on?

And kind of compelling you to be honest. Yeah, exactly. It's having that support system and network. And really, for me, fully owning that there are some things that I can't be completely self-reliant on right now. And that's a bitter pill to swallow for somebody who likes to be fully self-reliant. But there have been times in coming back to the Bay Area and coming back to work where I realized like, I need to set up like, I need to set up dinners with folks right now to like go out and eat with them because it's

better. I do much better in like a social scenario than that, than when I'm by myself, you know? Right. Well, now you're publicly on the hook. I know. Well, so now I have the entire world as accountability right so it's a double i mean it's a double-edged sword because i did have some people reach out to me and say oh well now everybody's watching me you can't screw up and all of a sudden my heart was like oh my god i'm like i'm human i'm gonna screw up yeah i've screwed up like we're all gonna have screw-ups and i think it's you know with alcohol or drugs, it's very easy to name your screw ups because it's like, I did the substance or I didn't do the substance food. It's

very, very slippery. It's not binary. No, it's very, it's like, did I restrict that meal a little or did I, am I really eating to hunger? You know, so you got to really be in touch with yourself and, and, you know, be willing to have that kind of honest dialogue going on all the time. Like it's about your intentions as much as anything else. Right. Right. But you know, the, the, the authenticity and the vulnerability with which you, you know, kind of have offered this up to the world, I think is honorable and, and, and super courageous. And I don't say that in a perfunctory or light way. I know it was a move that you had a lot of consternation about. Should I talk publicly about this? You don't have to. You have no obligation to. You made that decision. I went to the website for Opal because

I wanted to see what this organization was about. And there's like a slogan on the homepage that is beauty in imperfection and authenticity. And that's lovely, right? Absolutely. Because we're all imperfect. And I think the path towards being that fully integrated person who's not living with that kind of dissonance requires, you know, the courage to be authentic in real time, you know, and to be human and to be, you know, exposed on some level. And, you know, I can't imagine what it felt like after you wrote that blog post and you like hit, you know, publish on it, like walk me through that.

and you hit publish on it. Walk me through that. It was actually the most freeing experience that I've ever had. I sat down and I bawled my eyes out for the next half an hour or so. As you were writing it or after you published it? After I published it. Just the catharsis. The catharsis. Because I had been writing it over a span of –

I mean, I left treatment at the end of June. And then so it took me like a few weeks to kind of wrap my brain around it. And I was so anxious. I remember that day before I was like going to publish it. It was all done. It was sitting. It was ready to go. And I remember actually going to the pool to swim that morning. And then just like, it was like the best one in my life

because it was just like anxiety or something like that. I don't know, fueled. But in putting it out there, it finally, I just, I cried because it was just, I finally felt true to myself. And what was the motivation behind doing that? Honestly, a lot of it, I hate to say that there was a selfish motivation because it was, it was almost a, an alignment for myself. People are like, oh, you're so great,

you're inspiring other people. And I'm like, that's great. The discomfort of living in that kind of dissonance becomes intolerable. Exactly. And I can't say why exactly I felt the need to out it to the entire world as opposed to just, because I understand there are portions of yourself that you can keep close, you know, in hand. You don't have to let everybody know you're dirty laundry. But for me, it was very important to have that be a part of my story,

considering I've been so open and vulnerable, um, about many other things, but not this. And then that kind of selectiveness didn't sit well with me. Right. Um, and just to be able to be, feel free. I felt very, very free after I published it. And I went for a run the next day and I was like, I was the most just free feeling. And then people started giving me negative feedback and then that went away. But I'm joking. Well, I mean, first of all, 24 hours was great. I don't know. I didn't, I'm sure, you know, well, look, first of all, shame can't survive the light, right? So whatever shame you't survive the light, right? So whatever shame you were harboring, the only way out of that is to do exactly what you did.

And I'm sure there's trolls out there or whatever, but like all I saw was this overwhelming, like outpouring of like love and support. Like it was like, it was like a viral moment in the endurance sports world. I did, I honestly will say I expected a reaction. I did not expect that type of attention to it. And I'm blown away in the best way possible. I mean, it was amazing. I mean, I get kind of choked up thinking about it because people were so

supportive, um, and so great. I'm still like sorting through emails to respond to people. Um, and I think for me, it was very important to talk about it to you at a time where I am not recovered. Um, and, um, and that was, that was, that's a bit tough. Cause I think that you see so many people talk about their disorders in the past or their addictions in the past, but it comes from a recovered perspective. Um, and, um, I, you know, I, I got a lot of feedback saying like, thank you for being open before you're there, you know, because it's not as simple as that. And, and I go back and forth on whether like total freedom is possible. I feel like the voices get quieter, like things like they get easier,

the further and further, like you get into recovery, but I think that you always kind of have to be vigilant and I, maybe you can speak to that too. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm of the mind that, that there is no recovered, there's recovery, there's being active in your recovery. Um, I would never consider myself recovered, you know, and, and, you know, I had a relapse eight years ago after I'd been sober for 13 years. Like I'm very aware of how fragile it is and how, how, is and how it requires, you know, constant attention and focus. And that's not to say that, you know, your situation is the same, you know, it's different. But I would be curious about, like, is there a sense like that there is a recovered when it comes to relationship with food. I just feel like

that impulse is always there and keeping it at bay, you know, is important and there's tools for doing that. But to fall under the belief that it could disappear altogether and never reappear, I think is dangerous. Yeah. I think there's different mindsets. I think some people think that if you don't believe in that fully recovered is possible, then you're never going to get there. but I do kind of similarly believe to what you do is that, you know, like you can be in a very, very good place of recovery, but you still need to be mindful of things. And especially the longer, you know, like this has been 20 years of my life. Um, and a lot of this stuff has become so ingrained and automatic in me. And so it's almost in some ways like exposure therapy and unlearning habits and things like that, that didn't happen overnight, you know? Yeah. And it's all about where you are in the moment. Like my relationship

with this is like, what am I doing today? Like where, where is my recovery? Like in the middle of this experience that we're having right now, because I know people with 30 days of sobriety who like are super sober. And I know people who've been sober for 35 years who are out of their minds. They may not drink, but they're not, they don't have, they don't have like emotional sobriety, which is really kind of like where there's no, there's no, there's no destination for that because you can always iterate and improve on, you know, who you are as a human being. So it's less about where are my cravings for alcohol right now? Then, then it is about like, what's up with my character defects. I like being married to my

wife. Like I don't want her to leave. Like, so I, I have to like be on top of this shit. It's funny when, as soon as, as soon as I started to realize that, like the food was no longer like the, the scary issue. And I was like, God, now I have to work on myself. Right. It was like, now I have to like, kind of like underpin. But that's the whole thing. That is the point. The universe is driving you. Like this is, this is all about that. Right. And I, and I think my, and my big thing is that I'm, I'm a thinker. Um, and I've always like, no, no, no, no. I know my feelings. For so many years, I was really good at thinking about my feelings. Like really, really good at like thinking about my feelings, but not actually like feeling anything.

And I think that actually in our society, we prize a lot of thinking over feeling. You know, a lot of people follow like the stoic, like philosophies and things like that. a lot of people will follow like the stoic, like philosophies and things like that. And, and, um, once I finally started to like tap into what am I feeling right now? And like, then just like, not even, not even assigning, like not assigning judgments to that, but, and then just actually like being like, feelings are valid too. It doesn't all have to come from the mind. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think if you're, you're, things like stoicism are great for like corralling your emotional state, but I think when it comes at the cost of valuing

your emotional landscape, then you're missing a bigger picture of what it means to be a fully integrated human. And the thing about feelings is they change, right? So when you feel like you're going to die or this is so painful that you can't go one more minute without picking up the drug or vomiting or whatever it is your thing is, to be able to just be with it and feel it and experience it, knowing that it will go away, like it will dissipate,

it will morph into something else. Yeah, and that you don't need to use your coping mechanism of choice to get rid of that, to manage that feeling. Yeah, because you're so terrified of feeling that feeling that you'll do anything to numb it out, to change your state. Right, and the longer that we go without feeling those feelings, then the more scared we become of them. Right. So it's

that entire powerful, they become exactly that entire avoidance. Um, and so that's why I've been a huge fan of just like exposure therapy and all. Yeah. Well, one of the things you do every day and you share it a lot is that the gratitude list. Yeah, I do. Um, that has been, and that actually started my friend, uh, Matt Davis, who's actually a fellow podcaster. Um, but he, um, in recovery himself and, um, kind of started this movement and it's just on Instagram and it's 10 things a day that you're grateful for, which actually seems like a lot and it can be a lot. Um, but it's been very kind of like a, it's a different, it's a tool in my toolkit now, um, on, on a daily basis. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a big 12 step thing doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's one thing to kind of intellectually grapple with gratitude, but feeling it is like a practice.

Like I don't, I'm not like inclined to walk around grateful. Like I have to, you know what I mean? Like I'm like thinking about what I don't have, you know, all the time. So, and that's not healthy or good. Like I have to go out of my way to go, what am I grateful for?

And not just go, oh, I'm grateful for this, this, and this, like, let me try to feel that feel that. Like it's foreign. It is foreign. I think there is a part of me though, that with the gratitude, a lot of people are moving towards, I mean, the power of gratitude and it's great. But I also think that there's an issue that if we then feel like if we're ungrateful or if we have negative feelings and that's not not right because we have so much that we should be grateful for. And then we beat ourselves up that we are, you know. Shame on you. Exactly.

Exactly. But it is a very good, like, daily practice. Yeah. We have to be grateful for all our human flaws, too, right? I suppose. So, all right. So you were in the treatment center for, like, right? I suppose. So, all right. So you were in the treatment center for like 90 days? Like three months?

Yeah, so I was, it was about three months I was in Seattle, yeah. I think that's the appropriate time. Yeah, I mean, everybody's- I think you need at least three months. Everyone's journey is different. I think that they say in terms of like neural reprogramming and things like that,

I think three months is, is probably like, is a good period of where you can start to actually like, you know, change those neural pathways. I was in for a hundred days. Yeah. Just like down the street from where you grew up. Oh really? You know, Newberg? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can talk about that later. Um, in New York. We can talk about that later. So here you are, you've emerged from this experience, you've shared it, been transparent, you've been open. And now you're kind of being perceived in this new light. Like now the, it went from like, oh, you're so inspiring for what you do athletically to like, oh, it's so inspiring that you, you know, allowed yourself to be vulnerable, like the strength and vulnerability that's really connecting with a lot of people. And I think to like, oh, it's so inspiring that you, you know, allowed yourself to be vulnerable,

like the strength and vulnerability that's really connecting with a lot of people. And I think this is really, it is, whether this is your intention or not, like it is this amazing opportunity for you to be of service to a lot of people. I mean, we have an epidemic of disordered eating and eating disorders. There are so many people that struggle with this, that suffer in silence and to be, you know, this sort of beacon of hope in all of its, you know, flaws and all of that, given that you're early in this process, I think is, you know, is really a beautiful new,

you know, chapter for you. Yeah, and I, you know, I don't, look, I don't have a crystal ball to let you know, like where I'm going to be in and, but it is, you know, for me, it's really an opportunity to kind of live all parts of my life. Like I, like I said, I think I said, I was like, I don't, I don't want to be like the eating disorder recovery girl. I don't want to be the athlete. I don't like, this is just me. Like I'm super flawed. I'm super complex, just like everybody else out there. And this is just another piece, you know? So I'm just trying to live authentically and stumbling through and

figuring this all out. Um, and, um, to me, it's been very, very connecting to so many different people. Yeah. Well, what I hear in that is a healthy relinquishment of control. Like you can't control whatever the media narrative is going to be around this. But you do have the ability to reframe your own story and to make it more expansive than Amelia, the obstacle course champion, or Amelia, the ultra athlete, or Amelia, the attorney, like you're a spiritual being having a human experience and all of its wondrous beauty and pain. Where this goes, we don't know.

But I would imagine this has now put you in a situation in which you have to figure out yet another relationship with sport, right? Like how are you now kind of venturing forward in that world? Yeah. So I spent a lot of time and a lot of my work in treatment was kind of, was being very curious about my relationship with sport and about my identity as an athlete and where that, where that fits in, in my life. Um, and so I'm still, I still have a pole to sport. Um, it's not going anywhere. Um, I think for me, it's very much, um, more for the experiences now. Um, I, I have, I have an urge to compete and I actually, I think I went to one portion

of myself or I went to like one side where I used to be all about the competition and the winning. And then I moved to this, it doesn't matter. Winning doesn't matter. Competition doesn't matter. I'm going to enter these races where nobody finishes. Right. Yeah.

And now I'm kind of recognizing like my therapist told me, she goes, you know, wanting to win a race isn't a bad thing. It's just what you do when you don't win that race. And, um, so I still, I spent a lot of time, you know, working and evolving that, that relationship with the competition and lots to say on that at some point, I'm sure. Um, but so now I'm, I'm, I'm looking, you know, to, to get back, um, into racing again and get back into sport. Just probably not, you know, kind of just things that kind of light my soul on fire. When I talk to my coach about it, he's always, and I talk to him about a race,

and he goes, well, does it light you up? And that's kind of my gauge about where I really want to go with this. And so I've kind of taken a step back in the early stages of recovery from competing just because it's a lot to add into the mix. Well, I'm glad you have a coach. Yes, yes. I do have a coach. He has been with me from, I mean, he inherited me with the, well, inherited, like I started working with him. And then a week later I ended up with my stress, femur stress fracture. And that was not his fault at all.

Clearly, cause it was already there. But has actually been like the greatest source of me really, you know, owning this journey and seeking treatment and recovery and whatnot. Are you physically like cool now? Is everything? Yeah. Aside from when I kicked a bench in the sauna and broke my toe the other day, that was annoying, but physically beyond that, yes, I'm, I'm healthy. And it's, it, as I told everybody, running feels great when you feed yourself properly. My, my, my calcaneal stress fracture healed in record time when i was there in treatment you're putting nourishment in your body exactly yeah yeah um well i think i told you this before

but i think uh that you and burkle should do otillo because that would be super fun you know and it's so different and like there would be no expectations and it's difficult and it's cold and miserable and awesome. All those things that I love. It's unlike anything you've ever done before. Yeah. And to do it with a teammate also makes it not really about you and your performance. Right. And I think with all the swimming you've been doing, I think that could be fun.

I want you guys to do that. We've talked about it. I know they have a race down here. There's one in Catalina. Which I think would be kind of a good testing of it. I'm doing my first ocean swim tomorrow. So we'll see. With Caroline, right?

Yeah, with Caroline. But that's a very different ocean swim than- Is it a race or you're just going down to swim with her? No, I'm just going to swim. Okay. Because I haven't done, I've actually never swam in the ocean before, but it's like a nice warm summer ocean, you know, but it'll be awesome. I'm like, I'm not a great swimmer. Nobody's ever actually watched me swim, but I wouldn't worry about it.

Yeah. Well, I want to, um, I want to kind of round this down by talking a little bit about, you know, for people that are listening who either are suffering from this or they're a parent who has a child suffering from this or they have a family member or something like that, I think it could be really instructive and helpful to kind of walk through, you know, how, how, you know, people can manage this, like what to look out for, you know, how to try to help somebody who is in this condition and like what not to do. Yeah. Well, I think first of all, one big thing to recognize is that it's not about the weight. that it's not about the weight. Um, and I think, or when, if you, in terms of approaching somebody, um, that you never know how people are going to take it. If you say, Hey, notice you've lost a lot of weight or you've like, you know, like, so it's very, it's more about pointing out to people like behaviors or, um, them withdrawing or just really just checking in on them. Um, being like, I noticed you've been kind of like not showing up to group runs or group dinners or, you know, like what's going on. Because as I know, my doctor has always told my parents is like,

you can't recover for her. Like you can't force her to recover until she's ready. Um, but it's kind of just that like reinforcement that you are there for them. Um, and that, you know, in, in, in, in checking in, um, on them. And I think that sometimes though, when things are dire, like if it does seem to be like a medical necessity state, sometimes you have to be the bad guy. I mean, when my roommates intervened with me in college, I didn't speak to them for the next several months. Like literally was so angry. But they helped save my life. so angry, but they, you know, helped save my life. Um, and so in situations like that, sometimes if you're willing to be the bad guy, it can be very useful to just go straight for it.

The tough love thing, the tough love. And I'm sure, you know, like anybody who's ever had an intervention done for them, like you hate everybody in that moment. But it can be completely necessary. Yeah, it can be. And sometimes it works and often it doesn't because that person isn't willing. So I think for anybody who's listening, who's considering intervening on somebody else's situation, it's important. I mean, there may be a good reason to do that and it might be advised, but I think it's important to have a healthy relationship with outcomes and not be attached to whether it's going to work or not. Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. And no into going into it that, you know, there's a risk that could completely implode your relationship. Um, and, um, but I, you know, it's, it's, I look back at all of this now.

I'm like, man, you know, I'm trying to figure out like what actually like stuck, you know, the times that people, what people said. Um, and there's no rhyme or reason to be totally honest. Cause I've had interventions or people say things to me at times where it didn't resonate. And then other times where it's just an offhand comment. Yeah, timing is a weird thing with this. Right. Right?

It's like you've got to live your life in a certain way and get to the point where you really want to do something. And nobody can compel that willingness. No. No. you've got to live your life in a certain way and get to the point where you really want to do something, you know, and, and nobody can compel that willingness. No, no. And I think it, well, unless you clearly have like a minor child or things like that, there are, there are situations. But you can't make somebody want it. No.

I mean, you can make somebody go to a place. Right. And you can, you know, get them sent somewhere, but you can't actually catalyze their desire to actually be healthy. No. And they'll go through the motion. And I did it. I went through the motions.

I did everything that, you know, you said I should do. And, you know, got discharged and went on my way. And so, and then I've had people say, okay, well, then Amelia, what's different about this time then? And honestly, I could say, well, who knows? But I think that for me, it's this time it came from myself. And that's really like the key difference,

as opposed to somebody else kind of pushing you towards it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the thing for you is just, like I said before, like is really having, um, a setup that holds you accountable, like a community of people that you talk to and, you know, a protocol that's keeping you on the, on the path. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so, so important. Um, and, and with, you know, anybody and going through any type of recovery from any type of mental illness or mental health issue, what are the signs to look out for? Like, what are some things that, that, that people that

are in the grips of this thing do like early before it's obvious where like if a parent's listening to this and like, what should they be looking out for? Um, I will say I'm aware it's hard to generalize because they are so different, but I would say skipping mealtimes are like finding excuses. This is my own experience. So finding excuses to not eat with people, um, you know, subtly kind of like restricting food intake, um, being very kind of secretive around food is something, um, to look out for, um, body image, talk, um, things along those lines, um, that, well, but then that's tough because there's so much we're in crazy we're in crazy town now i know i know and so it is tough to say like when somebody like pokes out themselves and i was

like i don't like how i look i'm like is that is that a news order is that um right are you like looking at the kardashians all day long in your instagram feed what are you doing you know right yeah i mean as a parent of two daughters like we you know, we're in the middle of all this right now. And with our 15 year old, like she just deleted everybody. She's only follows her friends now for, you know, and that's a big part of it. I think that's huge. I think that, um, and I know me personally, I have unfollowed anybody who's like, seems to be promoting that type of like diet culture and, and that, you know, anything that wouldn't be, that wouldn't be conducive to like my own recovery. Um, but I do think that, um, you know, with, with teenagers and, you know, with kids, um,

the probably one of the best things that you can do as a parent, and I say this actually not as a parent, is just being a role model in, like, in how you approach food, you know. And because people don't realize that kids pick up on a lot of stuff, you know. So if you sit there and demonize certain foods or, you know, a lot of diet talk, like, kids can pick up on that. And I say this and, you know, like that was never, that was never in my family. My family didn't have any of that disorder or diet talk yet. I still have an eating disorder. So at some point for parents, I think it's also that, you know, it's, it's not always on you, you know, it's, it's not your fault as well. And I think as an athlete, like in, in the athletic context, it's very easy to hide your disorder, you know, under the mask of like training and performance.

And I think that there's, you know, I think there's a lot of people, you know, amateur athletes and endurance sports and other sports that are actively in the throes of this. And, you know, it's just not evident. It's harder to spot. It's harder to spot because you can frame it in terms of like, well, but I'm doing it for performance. And men too, I should say. Right, yeah. This is not just a female thing.

Absolutely. And I think it's even tougher for men because I think it's not as, I don't want to say socially acceptable to have any disorder, but there is like, you know, not as many men speak out about it. It's a little bit of, there's a weird, like kind of like tinge of taboo around

that. Yeah. And there are, there are some Mario Ferreira has like spoken out about his and whatnot. But I think that, you know, in, in, in the athletic world, yeah, it's, it's absolutely difficult. And what's unfortunate is that some of the times that I think that I have actually been struggling in the worst have been the times where I have looked the most health, like the most quote unquote normal outwardly. Um, and that there are many people in, um, normal size or larger size bodies who are really, really struggling, but because they don't have the physical manifestation of it, it's harder to pick up on. Yeah, no one would identify it.

Right. And luckily, the eating disorder treatment model and everybody in the industry has finally started to realize that you can have an eating disorder of any size body. So that's been very important. So I think in terms of picking up signs, it's mainly about behaviors because body size is not gonna indicate anything.

Yeah, the social withdrawal too. I think the social withdrawal, yeah. And any time, I think really avoiding mealtimes, skipping that kind of stuff is a big red flag. Yeah. And any time, I think really, you know, avoiding mealtimes, anything that you feel like is misunderstood about you and this story that you want to like make clear? Like, I feel like it's been completely embraced, but I'm not you. So I just want to make sure that you have the opportunity to like really speak your truth and not be misunderstood.

I am aware that there are folks out there who believe that like I should not be engaging in sport and also be in recovery. And I understand, I think that that's can be a completely valid concern. It is also something that I've worked through a lot, like with my, with my treatment team. Um, and everyone's relationship with movement is entirely different. Um, and so for some people, it shouldn't be a part of the recovery for others, people, it, it, it can be. Um, and I continually, it's part of mine now. Um, but you know, I continually every single day constantly question that and very, very always curious. And like, and as, as we've talked, as you talked about and that,

you know, my training one compulsion for another, but I think the key is just to be very curious about your intentions and your motivations behind things. Um, and, um, you know, it's, I'm always a work in progress as we all are. Anybody who says otherwise don't trust them. I mean, I'm just like, I don't, I don't have anything figured out. I'm just stumbling around, like putting the pieces together and how are your parents doing? They're good. I think that they're, I, I love my parents.

They're so fantastic. that they're, I, I love my parents. They're so fantastic. Um, and they've just, they've been kind of those like silent supporters that, that will be there, um, for me. And I think that they're, they're really, they're excited, um, to see me not so much. I mean, yes, like, you know, be in recovery for the eating disorder, but just to be more like living person, embracing life. That's the way I kind of look at this whole thing from 10,000 feet. Like you're on this journey to becoming a fully integrated, actualized, you know, authentic human being. And you had to take these disparate, you know,

puzzle pieces and find a way to put them together. So like you're assembling yourself in a new way. And I think the more you create that alignment and that consistency in all these various areas and, you know, writing this blog post and being here today are a big part of that. It's going to just, it's going to lead to something like amazing and beautiful because the power, there's so powerful to be in that place of truth and honesty where you're not shying away or feeling shame or feeling like, you know, you have to like couch your words because you don't want to say this or that. Like now you can just be who you are and stand in that and look people in the eye. And that's just like a, it's, it's like a very powerful place to be.

So I think whatever's coming next for you, I'm super excited to see what that is. Thank you. I am excited as well. You know, I think I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. Cool. All right.

Well, I think it was courageous of you to come here today and share all of that. So I acknowledge you for that. And I thank you for that. And I think it's gonna be helpful to share all of that. So I acknowledge you for that, and I thank you for that. And I think it's going to be helpful to a lot of people. So I appreciate it. Thank you. All right.

And if you want to connect with Amelia, ameliaboomracing.com. Yes. Amelia Boone on all the social platforms. Except for Instagram, I'm arboone11. Oh, arboone11. What happened there? Did somebody take your name? No, I was very late to the Instagram game

and I also didn't expect that. I mean. So I was just like. Well, whoever has that name should give it to you. I tried it. I don't know who has Amelia Boone. You're in Silicon Valley. You can't get that sorted out.

I tried to get Amelia Boone.com too. And that person did not want to give it up. Who is that person? Wow. He keeps it for his granddaughter or something like that. I'm serious. I've tried to hunt him down and pay him for it. Cool. All right. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. Peace. Food. How was that for you guys? I thought that was very powerful. I just want to thank Amelia again

for having the courage to share her story so beautifully and publicly. And I would like to say that if you are struggling with an eating disorder and are in need of support, please don't wait. Please call the National Eating Disorders Association helpline. That number is 1-800-931-2237. 800-931-2237. For a 24-hour crisis line, text NEDA to 741741. Again, that's NEDA to 741741. For more information and background on Amelia, check the show notes on the episode page on my website, richroll.com. And please reach out to her directly and let her know how this one landed for you. You can share your thoughts with her on Twitter at Amelia Boone, or you can follow her on Instagram at AR Boone 11. So do that.

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visit meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on the show on Apple Podcasts. That really helps with new people discovering the show. Tell your friends about your favorite episodes. Share the show on social media. Subscribe to the program on YouTube, on Spotify, and on Google Podcasts. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, behind the scenes production,

and show notes. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing and editing the podcast for YouTube, as well as all the shorter clips that we share and spread around on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics, Allie Rogers for portraits, DK David Kahn for advertiser relationships, and the Be Still interstitial music and the music courtesy of Analema. Appreciate all of you guys. I love you. I'm nothing without you guys. The audience is so important to me. I do not take your attention for granted. So if you could be so kind, I will see you back here next week with personal development author, sort of a publishing phenom. Mark Manson is his name, and he's coming by to discuss the enormous success of his book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. And his latest book, Everything is Fucked, a book about hope.

It's a good one, people. Don't miss it. So I'm going to leave you with a short little clip. Until then, if you feel like you need help, if you are struggling with any addiction or disorder or depression, please reach out for help. Do not wait. Raise your hand and make yourself known because you are not alone and help awaits you. Peace. Plants.

Namaste. Well, first of all, any sort of self-improvement by its very nature is going to be difficult. Like no self-improvement feels great. If it feels great, you're probably not actually changing very much. You know, any real change is by definition painful, stressful, difficult. And so if you're going to write very honestly about those subjects, one thing I discovered while I was blogging is you kind of have to like mix a little bit of honey into the medicine. And so that's where like the humor started, kind of the irreverent attitude, some of the stories. Because I just noticed that if you're dropping F-bombs and

you're telling some crazy story about this time you got drunk in college, then having that difficult conversation about life purpose or whatever it may be, after that, it goes down much better for people. People are more open to it. The same way we need to challenge ourselves physically, I think we need to challenge know, the same way we need to challenge ourselves physically, I think we need to challenge ourselves intellectually. I think we need to challenge ourselves emotionally. And I guess you could argue we even challenge ourselves spiritually. Thank you.