The Rich Roll Podcast - Amy Dresner: Getting Dirty, Staying Clean & The Power Of Owning Your Truth

Episode Date: January 15, 2018

Shame can’t survive the light. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating. If you’ve been on this podcast adventure with me for a while, then you know well that addiction, alcoholism and recovery are recurring themes of the show — subjects very close to my heart as someone whose life has been spared by sobriety. These themes recur because millions of people from every cross section of life suffer in silence. Deeply ashamed and terrified to confront their truth, these lost souls dwell in the shadows. Paralyzed and powerless, addiction strips them of their humanity as they descend into darkness, wandering lost and alone in what author and addiction medicine specialist Gabor Maté (RRP #188) dubs the realm of the hungry ghost. As a culture we perpetuate the cycle of shame by judging those afflicted as weak, even sub-human. This creates a climate of fear and silence, further entrenching a deep sense of self-hatred that drives the addict into a prison of loneliness and despair, isolating that individual from the life-saving solution to their fatal disease. But shame can’t survive the light. So let’s shine a light on it. Towards that end, I give you the story of Amy Dresner. A former stand up comic, recovering drug addict and all around fuck up (her words), Amy is a writer and author who humorously chronicles her epic ups and downs for The Fix, Refinery 29, Alternet, After Party Chat, Salon, The Frisky, Cosmo Latina, Addiction.com and Psychology Today. I first came across Amy by way of our mutual friend (and record-setting 8-time podcast guest) Mishka Shubaly and her recently released memoir, My Fair Junkie: A Memoir of Getting Dirty and Staying Clean*. I dig a good addiction yarn, and Amy’s descent into the throes of addiction and ultimate redemption is one for the ages. Growing up in Beverly Hills, Amy had it all: a top-notch private school education, the most expensive summer camps and even a weekly clothing allowance. But at 24, she started dabbling in meth in San Francisco and unleashed a fiendish addiction monster. Soon, if you could snort it, smoke it, or have sex with, she did. Smart and charming, with daddy’s money to fall back on, she sort of managed to keep it all together. But on Christmas Eve of 2011, all of that changed when, high on Oxycontin, she stupidly “brandished” a bread knife on her husband and was promptly arrested for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon. Within months, she found herself in the psych ward–and then penniless, divorced and looking out on a court-ordered 240 hours of community service. For the next two years, assigned to a Hollywood Boulevard “chain gang,” she would sweep up syringes (and worse) on Hollywood Boulevard as she bounced from rehabs to halfway houses, all while struggling with sobriety, sex addiction, and starting over in her 40s. Amy pulls no punches. Her raw honesty is as devastating as it is courageous – perhaps even shocking for those less intimately familiar with the ravishes of addiction. But she’s also hilarious. Today we get into all of it. This is a candid conversation about the dark underbelly of drug abuse, sex addiction, and alcoholism. It’s about violence, fear, self-hatred, and shame. It’s about the very real struggle to survive. And it’s about the conviction and strength required to achieve sobriety. Peace + Plants, Rich

I had to lose everything so I could be grateful. And sweeping the streets created a sense of unity and compassion for other people that I'd never had before. Growing up in Beverly Hills, it's like, well, that'll never happen to me. And it's like, I'm here to tell you, anything can happen to you. You are not immune. So if there's someone else and they've gone through that, have compassion. That could be you. I'm here, have compassion. That could be you.

I'm here to tell you that absolutely could be you. That's Amy Drezner. This week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How's it going? What's the good word? I hope this streaming cyberspace audiophile finds you well today. And I mean that. I really do mean that. My name is Rich Roll. This is called a podcast. Welcome to it.

So I've been hunkered down over the last week, week and a half, two weeks, and have been pretty much off social media lately in comparison to kind of my relationship with it in the past. And it feels good, but I also admit that I kind of miss it. I really do miss it. I like posting stories on Instagram. I like seeing what other people are up to, but I will say that it has been to my benefit. I definitely feel more focused, which is important

because it's been a really busy period for me. I'm editing pages on a new book that's coming out soon. I'll tell you more about that this spring. I'm also cracking the structure of a brand new book that I'm working on. And we're almost done with our new cookbook, The Plant Power Way Italia, which is coming out in April. So that's three writing projects. And as for the cookbook, we're going to reveal the cover for that soon, which is pretty exciting. And then I spent all day the other day recording the audio book for someone else's book, not one of my books. And that's a book that's coming out at the end of the month. And that was new for me and cool. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about that specific project, so I better not reveal anything right now, but it's exciting.

It's exciting for me, at least, I guess. And on top of all of that, I put out two podcasts last week. So it's been a lot, but it's been good. And I feel like I'm in a good creative groove at the moment, which is awesome. But, you know, I realized one thing, which is that I can't do all of that and keep up with social media, make videos, do a lot of the other things that I enjoy doing that I find to be creatively rewarding. In other words, you got to prioritize your energies, man. You got to aim them in the direction that will serve the most people

and serve them in the best way in a long-term sense, if you know what I mean, if that makes sense. Did I mention I got Amy Drezner on the podcast today? I don't think I did mention that. Interesting woman, that Amy Drezner. If you've been on board this podcast adventure with me for a while, then you know well that addiction, alcoholism, sobri is in recovery. They are issues I think are important to discuss, especially in the midst of this explosion of opiate addiction that is devastating millions of people. But too often this and other issues that kind of swirl around addiction are not dealt with out in the open. They're dealt with in the dark, hidden away. And that's usually a function of shame. So let's talk about it.

And to do that, I invited Amy on the show, who, despite the fact that I've had a litany of recovering addicts and alcoholics on the podcast in the past. Mishka Shubali, Charlie Engle, Joseph Knauss, David Clark, Chris Davis, Steve-O. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting at the moment, but I know one thing, which is that I've never shared a woman's perspective on this subject. So I am excited about this one for that specific reason, as well as for many other reasons, because Amy's amazing. A former standup comic, recovering drug addict and all around fuck up. Those are her words. Amy Dresner is a writer. She's an author who humorously chronicles her epic ups and downs for The Fix, which is a recovery themed online publication, as well as Refinery29, Alternet, After Party Chat,

Salon, The Frisky, Cosmo Latina, Addiction.com, and Psychology Today. You guys know I love a good addiction recovery yarn and Amy's first book hits the spot for me. It's called My Fair Junkie, a memoir of getting dirty and staying clean. It's a wild ride. It's so crazy, her story. And it chronicles her downward spiral from somebody who pretty much had it all growing up in Beverly Hills to be coming to kind of descending into this fiending addiction monster. Meth, Oxycontin, alcohol, and sex were all among her drugs of choice. And it's a journey that led her to a felony conviction for domestic abuse. It led her to psych wards.

It rendered her penniless and ultimately found her on a community service chain gang and kind of going in and out of more rehabs and halfway houses that you can count until she finally gets sober and has to face completely starting over her life in her forties and her book and Amy herself in person pulls no punches. It's what I really love about her and her writing. It's so devastatingly honest, but also hilarious. Like she's really funny. And at times perhaps even a bit shocking, especially for those who might be a little less intimately familiar with the extent to which addiction can ravish a life. And today we're going to get into all of it. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not

hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming

and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple.

Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful. And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment

option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care

tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction

yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay. So this is the very raw, brutally honest, courageous, and funny, she's really funny, story of Amy Drezner. We talk about her privileged and tame upbringing. We talk about her descent into drugs and alcohol and her rollercoaster journey to recovery. So this is about sex, drugs, comedy, rehab, violence, the dark pernicious force that is unbridled addiction, and ultimately the path to sobriety. But honestly, in many ways similar to my conversation with Myrna Valerio,

but also very different, what this is really about is the redemptive power of simply facing, owning, and ultimately summoning the courage to share your truth. And the incredible indelible power that ownership, that that kind of ownership, the ability to be profoundly honest with yourself, which takes a tremendous amount of courage, the power that that holds to overcome shame and heal oneself and serve as an example to heal others. In other words, rooting out shame by shedding light upon the facts of your experience. So really powerful stuff. Whether you are in recovery or not, whether you're suffering from some kind of addiction, be it substance or behavioral, or maybe you know somebody who

suffers, I think we can all get something out of Amy's story, even if it just serves to help you better understand the nature of this condition, this disease. And even if you don't think you have a problem, I would encourage you to think of addiction to define addiction for yourself a little bit more broadly, because addiction truly is a spectrum. And personally, I believe that we all, that all of us suffer on some level, either consciously or unconsciously from some kind of unhealthy obsession or compulsion that we feel powerless to combat or resist or overcome. And it can be substance, it can be

booze or drugs, or it can be a behavior like gambling or shopping or social media or television or relationships or, you know, texting while driving. Or it can even just be a thought pattern, victimhood, a sense of unworthiness, for example. So I think it's important to talk about these things. So let's do that. Let's talk about it. Here's Amy.

You ready to rock? I'm ready to rock. Yeah, thanks for coming out all the way out to the countryside. Yeah, it's a nice drive. To do this. I appreciate it. I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. Oh, nice.

Me too. I thought before we get into it, I wanted to ask you, well, basically, this is on behalf of Mishka. He wants to know, like, why you give him so much shit about his body hair. Before we get into anything, we got to talk about Mishka a little bit. Oh, my God. Mishka's a podcast fave. He's been on my show, like, I don't know, seven times. I know.

Well, that's how we got connected. We got connected. Yeah. Mishka, oh, come on. Does he always Right. We got connected. Yeah. Mishka. Oh, come on. Does he have to always have to make it about him? Of course he does. Oh, my God.

Because he's hairy. He's super duper duper hairy. I know. What are we going to do about that? I mean, we should like send him to the depilatory just for a video. Can you imagine? Just like, I want to just see him get waxed. I mean, how much would you pay to see a video

The thing is, he would probably do it. He would do it. Well, he's gorgeous. And it's like, he's gorgeous and a great writer. It's like, what are you going to give him crap about? Like, that you're hairy like a gorilla. I'm like, you're very her suit. It's like, he is.

But he has some like pride around that, I think. Okay. I don't know. He should be here. I feel bad. I feel bad. Don't feel bad. He can't respond. But anyway, we're here to talk about you and we're here to talk about your amazing book, My Fair Junkie. I loved it. It's so refreshing to read, not just an addiction recovery memoir, but like any book or any memoir, I should say, that's just honest,

you know, that's not trying to convince you of some image or persona other than like who you are and your level of like vulnerability and honesty and just rawness in this book, it just leaps off the page. It's insane. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's an incredible story. And, you know, although the facts of our experience are different, uh, the emotions, like it was so vivid for me because I got sober in Hollywood too. And, and, you know, I, I know those places that you're talking about and, you know, you would sort of, uh, you know, reference somebody. And I was like, I think I know who that is who that i was like i went through legal vetting i was like really of course yeah of course but some people are like they they can guess who certain people are yeah and certain people i got permission completely permission but but recovery in los angeles is a very specific yes subculture

unlike i would imagine recovery circles in other cities. I agree. I would agree with that. It can be very incestuous. Yeah. Hollywood especially. Especially. I know. But when I got sober, I needed the circus. I needed that drama. I was like, my life's going to be so boring and I need new friends and I'm not going to go sit in a church basement with a bunch of 50 year olds. So I would go to the places where I knew it not going to go sit in a church basement with a bunch of 50-year-olds. So I would go to the places where I knew it was going to be crazy. There would be hot girls, and somebody would be hanging from the rafters.

Hey, whatever gets you there. And maybe the cops would show up. Oh, my God. Right? That's happened at some of these. I've seen it many times. And I didn't even go to Midnight Madness and those really crazy meetings. Chinatown.

Oh, yeah. I used to go. Because I was like, you meetings yeah like i was just trying to town oh yeah i used to go because i was like you know you're looking uh you know it's your social life yeah so you get all dressed up and go and that's not my life now no it's not mine either like i i go to i mean i like small meetings i go to like small men's meetings only and it's very only very occasionally do i pop in at like a sundowners or something like that and i'm like wow you know i used to like look so forward to that but now it just seems so bizarre i know i just i hate it i guess that's growth i don't know i don't know i don't know or just it's like retreating into ourselves yeah so you're sober five years now i'll be five years in january 2nd yeah congrats not my first sobriety no it's not we were talking before the podcast you're like oh yeah january 2nd that's like the lamest thing ever yeah like a cheesy date it's like okay so you're still hung

over a new year's and like diddle hair the dog that day and then the second you were like okay get it together. My resolution. It's like, I don't know. Yeah, but then when you back it up, when you back the truck up and, like, really get connected with your crazy story. It was so bad. It was so bad. So let's take it back. Okay.

Let's start. Should we start at the beginning? It's whatever. You're the boss. What it was like, what happened. You're the boss. No, this is an open-ended conversation it's not an interview but yeah you grew up in la you grew up in beverly hills grew up in laurel canyon and in benedict

canyon i went to school in bel-air it's like you know i didn't you know i was privileged my parents split when i was two there's a lot of alcoholism and mental illness in my family so i feel like genetically i was like loaded up with that from the beginning um but even from like i don't know nine years old i had that weird feeling that everyone talks about which is like not fitting in not being good enough not kind of really getting you know how things worked and feeling like, am I missing this manual that everyone has? Just, you know. So what kind of kid were you? Like, what was your crowd? What kind of music were you listening to? Well, you know, I went to Catholic school, even though I'm a Jew, for junior high. And then I went to an all girls private uniform school. I was a good girl. I mean, that's what's weird. It was like, I was super in a purity. What was I listening to? I

was listening to like go West and Howard Jones. And it was like, you know, and I was like straight A student and I didn't kiss anyone and I didn't smoke cigarettes and nothing. I mean, I was super in a purity. Yeah. I was, I was, I was the same. the same yeah i was really and i was very judgmental me too of everybody who was going out partying because i was like super into school and like my sport and right i was very focused on that and i would be like you're never gonna go anywhere you know it's like the joke was on me later you know what is that it's like everything i judged i became it was like i was really really snobby about it i I was just like, oh my God, like drugs are a cop out. And like, you need to be present and like feel your feelings and reality.

It was like, oh, and then fast forward, you know, it's like six rehabs. People are like, I mean, I was the last person people thought was going to end up a drug addict. Yeah. And yeah, I was really sexually kind of weird too. It was like, I mean, I didn't kiss anyone until I was 18 years old. I didn't lose my virginity until I was 19. I was just obsessed with purity. Is that like the Catholic school thing?

I was just weirdly obsessed with purity and I was afraid. Was it a reaction to the chaos in your household? I mean, to be honest, I think it was a reaction to my father being sort of my primary caretaker. My mother was living in Mexico when I was going through puberty. So my father was my father and my mother. And I didn't really want to become a woman and become sexual. And I thought that that would make him pull away from me. And I needed, he was my main parent.

And I needed to stay close to him and i was so i sort of stayed asexual so you couldn't bifurcate your intimacy you know yeah so and he's like a creative dude screenwriter writer yeah i used to do used to write porn in the 60s like soft core like cheesy those like did you know that when you were young oh god i don't remember when i when i found that out. Did you know that when you were young? God, I don't remember when I found that out. But like, you know, those things like The Throbbing Manhood, like those cheesy, cheesy books. Like with Larry, him and Larry Block and all those guys on Westlake used to write that. And that's how they made their living in their 20s in New York, playing poker and writing these softcore books.

And then he wrote A Man Who Wrote D wrote dirty books which was about a a pornographer and then that got him into movies and then he was a screenwriter right tv writer but he but he kind of made it in hollywood right totally absolutely writer absolutely a bunch of credits you know but you know he has not read the book and he's like i've told my really no way are you kidding scared he's not scared but i just don't think he wants, I don't want him to read. Some of those scenes are really, the sex addiction scenes are really dark and mortifying. I don't think he wants to see his little girl that way. And I also, it's funny when I had my book soup opening, he was there, he flew down from

Oregon and I said, come on, you wrote porn. And he goes, I made it up. Your shit is real. That's a good point. I was like, right. You know, when you were writing, were you, did you have that? Did you have to overcome that resistance of, you know, if my dad reads this, what's he going to do?

I knew he wasn't going to. He doesn't want. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even my boyfriend at the time it was a happy ending who's no longer in my life didn't he started to read the book he started crying like four pages in and he's a normie and i was like this book is not for you no i'm not gonna be able to handle it if you're a normie you're like what universe does this yeah it's gnarly and it's like and i didn't also my parents lived through all of that like like IV drug use and seizures.

And it was like, my mom's read it and she, but she's in recovery. Yeah. What did she say? She just was more upset about the way I depicted her. Classic alcoholic. It's about her. What about me? Right.

It made her really sad actually you know she's like she remembers all those times i didn't my father was extremely freaked out by my drug use so i mean i remember uh i guess i was i went up to oregon once and i was it was a relapse and i track marks all over my arms and it was like a hunt it was like 90 something degrees in Ashland and I'm wearing a t-shirt and he goes put a fucking sweatshirt on and I was like well it's so hot he goes I don't want to see that I want to see you as my kid I don't want to see you as a drug addict like I can just continue to see you as my kid it's like a weird denial though yeah you know and and and even with not reading the book too,

of course, I just don't want to know. He always, I mean, I can't as a father of young girls though, I guess, you know, trying to imagine like my daughter wrote the book that you're,

you wrote, it would be heartbreaking. Yeah. You don't want to hear that men treated your daughter like that or that she hated herself, that she was allowing it or she put herself through that or she was so self-destructive. So his girlfriend read him the safe parts.

Yeah. All right. So you're in Catholic school. You're a goody two shoes. You're, you know, you're, you're, you're shaming everyone around you. So where does it start to shift? Like, where do you, what's your entry point? So I'm in college, I'm 19 and I'm a virgin and I've never drank and I'm a weirdo going to school at Emerson.

And I realized I'm a freak. And this thing that I was like so proud of is like this horrible albatross around my neck and everyone's fucking and everyone's getting drunk. And I'm like, I feel out of it. So I'm like, I got to get rid of all this stuff. When you were in high school, though, did you go? I mean, you're a very extroverted person and you're funny, right? So I would imagine you still, were you going to the parties and stuff like that? No, I really wasn't.

Really wasn't. I wasn't a party girl at all then. I've never really been a party girl. Even when I was using, it was like me and the cat. Yeah. Like, and like listening to. That's where it ends usually. Sometimes it begins.

I know. I'm like weirdly socially freaked out. Like I have like social anxiety. Like I don't, I. I know. I'm like weirdly socially freaked out. Like I have like social anxiety. Like I don't, I don't know. Like I didn't like clubs. I kind of, bars were okay, but clubs have always terrified me. Always. So you're in Emerson.

So I'm Emerson. So I started drinking. I had my first blackout at 20, you know, but it's college and everyone's throwing up and everyone's skipping class. And so my drinking doesn't look that different from anyone else's. And it was fun and I liked it, but it wasn't, I didn't feel that click, you know, where I was like, ah, this is what I need for my, you know, to be on the planet. It wasn't like that.

It wasn't, not booze. So I have my first nervous breakdown at 19. What was that about I don't even know I mean I was anorexic I was depressed I mean again I have like a lot of depression in my family I lost my virginity it was a horrible horrible experience um I just kind of fell apart. Yeah. And then I had another nervous breakdown at like 23. And then I was driving to San Francisco. You know, you've heard, I don't know if you've heard of like the year of yes, the year that, is it Shonda Rhimes that wrote a book called The Year of Yes?

I wrote an essay. Well, it's funny because I wrote an essay for Addiction.com called My Year of Yes. So I'm driving to San Francisco in my 67 Navy Blue T-Bird, you know, and I'm like, oh, you know,

I don't, I was like, I knew I was really shut down and I was like, I got to figure out who I am. I'm going to figure out who I am by who I'm not. So I'm going to say yes

to every opportunity that comes my way. Uh-huh. So, yeah. Yeah, right? You can get in some dark, nasty places pretty quick. Well, that's exactly what happened. If you're drinking and using.

Well, I hadn't started using really. So I was just like, you know, I'm gonna say yes to every sexual experience that comes my way. Men, women, vegetables, let's do this. You know, it was like drugs, performing, let's do it. Let's see who we are. And that's how I got into crystal meth, which was the drug for me that felt like it made me feel normal. So walk me through that, that experience, because I think what's interesting is we all make these rules like,

oh, well I do this, but I'm never, I'm not person, or I'm never going to do that, right? You know, I'm a professional cyclist, but I would never dope, or I work in a hedge fund, but I would never be an insider trader, or, you know, yeah, I'm an alcoholic, but I would never do IV drugs. I crossed all those lines. You know what I mean? So, like, what's super interesting is, like, that first, like, what the kind of environment that is conducive first, like what, what, what the kind of environment that, that is conducive to, you know, stepping over that line for the first time.

Well, like I said, I'd made the decision to sort of be open to experiences and I didn't realize how prone to addiction I was. I'd never been around addicts. I hadn't seen it. I didn't know. But it was in your, it was in your family. Yeah. But I didn't really get, get it. You know, my mom had been an alcoholic and addicted to amphetamines for 15 years. And my uncle had been addicted to amphetamines and there's a lot of like schizophrenia and like, you know, electroconfolicin therapy and people in asylums. And it was like, I didn't really know the extent of it so i think i did ecstasy and i like they stroked this young pierced couple and we were like i was like okay you know when you're on you know it's like i was like 24 and they were 18 and they were like super

pierced in san francisco and it was like you know i ecstasy never really worked on me i just maybe i just don't have enough dopamine or maybe because I've been on antidepressants since I was 19 years old, like that. I just, it never really, I never really got the feeling that everyone talked about. So I was working as a waitress and I was working as a dishwasher because it's San Francisco, man. And it's cool to like do low end jobs and like pay and handle. And, you know know so i was like

totally there is that weird thing yeah i know so it was like i pretend i didn't have a trust fund i was like pretend i was a totally different person i had like a pierced lip and i was like you know doing this whole thing and i was so tired because i'd been up all night with the pierced couple and um a neighbor offered me some pinkish powder i didn't even know what it was i didn't even ask he's like this will help you get you through your waitressing shift at the ethiopian restaurant and i was like okay cool and so i snorted it and it was like oh it burned and i was like very very shaky and i didn't like it i was like i don't think i'm gonna do that again fast forward those are the most common words ever right right? I'm not going to do that again.

Fast forward. I'm in the sort of spoken word scene with all the junkie poets in San Francisco. And someone offers it to me again. And I do it again. And this time the experience is totally different. For whatever reason. It's different stuff. I have no idea.

But I felt a click. And I felt normal. You were like, this is it. This is it. I was like, this is Prozac with wings. I don't know what the psychiatrists are fucking around with. Like, this is what I've needed my whole life. I feel confident, beautiful. I have energy.

I'm creative. Like, I need this to be on the planet. And so there was some, on some level, conscious or otherwise, there was an intention that was kind of put in place that this was going to be what you were going to be doing. Yeah, but I thought I was kind of experimenting. I was just, you know, I was like, oh, I'm experimenting, even though it was like every day, all day. I didn't really see that I was sort of getting strung out. And were you drinking, too, to take the edge off that so you could sleep? Or was it just basically

it became about math yeah i mean i was drinking then um too but eventually i mean true tweakers don't drink we don't want to we don't want to take the edge off our high we want that grindy high and so eventually i didn't really i just was doing crystal uh-huh uh and then i got this like weird infection in my face and my nose from snorting all this like street crank and i kind of called my parents and i was like i'm sick and they came up and like you know they figured out what was going on and they were like whoa and they dragged me back to la to be sober and i was sober for about two months but i was drinking every night like two bottles of wine in my be sober and I was sober for about two months but I was drinking every night like two bottles of wine in my house writing and I was like I'm it's like Hemingway

Bukowski and it's cool to write and be a drunkard and you know I'm like 24 years old and then I started doing crystal again and oh it was like that was the next like year and a half of like staying up for like five to 17 days in a row and refinishing furniture and dumpster diving and the whole tweaker world taking apart electronics. And yeah. And the characters that start to come into your life. Yeah. Tweakers. I mean, the tweaker scene in L.A. is much darker than the tweaker scene in San Francisco.

It was like really low bottom people like talk lower lower companion and you know you're an attractive woman and you're putting yourself into like a really vulnerable dangerous situation yeah by doing that I know I mean I never got I never got like assaulted or molested or it's crazy that that didn't happen you know which is really I know because I was living by myself and I was so naive. I mean, I was really kind of fronting. I sort of put on this like front that I was sort of like a badass. But, you know, there's this bit in the book where those Mexican gangsters are at my house and like, hey, you know, you know anyone who wants to buy this?

And I was like, I don't even know what that is. They're like, it's a gun silencer, man. I was like, whoa, am I out of my league? You know, it's like, oh, I was like, let me ask around. You, man. I was like, Whoa, am I out of my league? You know, it's like, Oh, I was like, I'm, let me ask around, you know, just, I was like, I'm gonna die. You know, I got ripped off a couple of times and stuff like that. But, and when did you start to develop a sense of like, all right, this is getting out of control. Like maybe I want to reel this back or quit altogether. Like what was the internal monologue well there was like times where

there were speed droughts in california during that period where no one had any and i really and i couldn't get out of bed i'd start to go through i mean you can't really get physically addicted like i would i just couldn't get out of bed and i was like oh so it's like your hormonal system is so yeah adrenals whatever I literally couldn't get a shower I couldn't put my arms over my head like I was gray and I was like this is kind of you know and also it stopped working I felt my depression sort of surface up above the crystal the high of the crystal so then i'm high and i'm also depressed and i would just cry smoke meth off foil and listen to nirvana and lay in the bathtub for hours and i was like this is not good and what were you doing at the time like where

where are your parents and all this my mom's in santa fe my dad's in oregon i'm living off a trust fund but i kept like blowing through my rent you know because i had a huge habit yeah i had like i was doing i was smoking like a like a half an eight ball every day and a half wow it's a lot of crystal yeah so you not like lose your teeth and stuff well i have epilepsy now oh you do yeah as a result of that yeah wow but i have my teeth and it's la that's what's important right no one um i don't know i just have good teeth it's just genetics but it did screw my brain up i have like hyperactive lesions on my frontal lobe now and i have for 15 years now it's a totally direct result of that. Wow. But so then I started buying and selling to cover my habit because my dad kept saying, I was like, I misbudgeted.

And he was like, hmm. And he knows what's going on. Yeah, but I'm not ready to, I refuse to go to treatment. And he never said like, I'm going to cut you off until. That was later. They were afraid to. They were afraid like I'd become a hook you off until... That was later. They were afraid to. They were afraid, like, I'd become a hooker or, like, a major drug dealer. They were scared.

They didn't know what to do. I mean, they were really frightened. I wouldn't go to AA. I went to see an addiction specialist. And I just, like, you know, talked my way around this guy. And he deemed me an atypical addict because I was like, well, you know, I've been diagnosed as borderline. You know, look at all these studies that say amphetamines are the best things for borderline. I mean, I just went, I was too smart, way too smart for it.

But I did see one psychiatrist. And I said, I had a physician's desk reference like every good drug addict and so you know like what you're going in looking for so you know what you're got to say what's wrong with you say in order to get that appropriate and so i was trying to get pharmaceutical speed and she was on to me and she was just like you know she gave me like slow release tablets which of course didn't work at all i was so pissed i like tried to boil them down and crush them yeah nothing i was like fuck so i go back and i was like no i need like the you know and she goes i think you you know i think you need to go to aa and i was like fuck you lady and i didn't go i wasn't ready to go i knew I was a drug addict, but I was scared to let it go.

I was really scared that I would not be able to function on the planet without it. Of course. I think that's the thing that people don't get, that normal people don't really fully understand. That, you know, it's not a matter of intellectually understanding what's happening. Of course you do. You know, you know, it's out of control. Yeah. I was writing about it. Just powerless to stop it. And the fear, the terror of, of addressing it far exceeds, um, the misery that you experienced by perpetuating it. Yeah. I mean, I was already super, super, super depressed while I was

on speed. And I just thought if I take the speed away, I'm going to just fall through the floor. I mean, I'll kill myself. Like I'll just be swallowed up by my grief and my depression. And I just, I was just so terrified to let it go. But I was very aware that I was a drug addict and I was kind of embracing it. I was like, I'm a junk, you know, like I'm a junkie. I was a drug addict and I was kind of embracing it I was like I'm a junk you know like I'm a junkie I was writing all about it I was reading Burroughs at the time I was totally like into it oh yeah I was all about it when you were were you writing about it publicly I was no I was writing about it yeah I was writing a book yeah while I was high you know talking about how I'm still have those pages yeah they're so frightening they're so frightening. They're so frightening.

Yeah. They're in like this container. You think they're great at the time? They're not bad. They're not bad. But it's like, there's weird, like, I was really into collaging at the time. So there's like weird collage. Like, you know, there's like, you just, you like glued over things.

And I was like, you know, it's ugh. You could make another book out of that. Oh my God, I'm sure. I just couldn't even bear to read it. I wanted to delve into it for this book, but I was just so freaked out. It's still in like a sealed container in my kitchen. I think that that is also common with most people

who are creatively inclined who are addicts. The fear of letting go of the substance is tremendous because you have this sense that that's what's fueling the creativity. If you remove that, then you'll never write a song again. Forget about writing a book. You're never going to have an interesting original thought ever again. I've written a couple. I wrote a piece for The Fix about that called Too Sober to Be Creative. And I wrote actually this guy, Simon Mason, who is a British musician and had written a memoir, Too High, Too Far. I can't remember the total name of it, but he asked me for some quotes about that. And it's like, so I was, I actually, yeah, I was very aware of that too.

And it's like, and I'm aware too, like, you know, it was like when I was doing standup, it was like, when you're happy, it's, there's no one wants to hear like, I'm so happy. That's not funny. What's funny is like, I'm living in a studio with four other dudes and, you know, you know, like no one will date me and, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. Well, the relationship between comedy and pain. Of course.

So intertwined. And the same thing with like, I was like am i gonna write about right like what am i gonna write about like you know what do we what's my next book gonna be about trust fund and i live in yeah you know in beverly the beverly hills i mean even like my next book i'm like what am i gonna do i have to burn my life to the ground to have material again it's like i said you know it's like i don't know what i I'm sure, you know, something will come up because once you have an attitude and a voice, people will follow you, you know, and it's like that they want to see it through your lens and I'm obnoxious and whatever and

strange. So, and, and, you know, well enough that from being around the recovery community in Los Angeles, you see these broken artists who come in. And then when they, when they get it, when they get sober, like their careers, their creativity, their output just goes through the roof. So you see time and time again, that that myth that we hold on to so dearly is just an illusion. Yeah. I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't doing nothing except like plucking my eyebrows. You know what I mean? And like, yeah.

So when's the first like come to Jesus moment? I walked into a market and I woke up in an ambulance and they were like, I don't even know. I think I had a seizure. That's what they think. And so I'm strapped to a gurney and they said did you do some drugs tonight and i said obviously some really shitty ones because here i am still obnoxious still right still an asshole just had a seizure still an asshole and uh they're like can you tell us who the president is i was like of course just totally blank i mean my mind was blank they're like what's your name? And I was like, just blank. It was really frightening. So they did a CAT scan. They fed me a sandwich.

They charcoaled me and they let me go. But that scared me enough to go into treatment. And I went into treatment and I was in a dual diagnosis treatment for two months. And then I was in sober living for four months. Was that in LA? Yes. Where was that? And so why didn't that stick? It did stick. Well, it stuck sort of, so I, I stayed away from crystal. I went to, I was going to meetings and I was hating it. I was like, this is creepy. I don't dig it. You know, I didn't think I was an alcoholic. I thought I was just a drug addict. I stayed clean and sober for about a year. then i was like i can drink let's try this and i was in a blackout for three

weeks so was the idea though like i'll drink but i won't do math yes exactly of course and drinking made me you know a monstrous, violent lunatic immediately. And I would black out. And I was like, okay, maybe not. So then I stayed sort of dry for like six, seven years. I was living in Paris. I lived in London. I didn't touch it.

And what were you doing during that time? Doing fashion. I had a fashion line with this British designer. And then I relapsed in England. I had another nervous breakdown. And I took a box cut. I was going to kill myself. And so I thought, well, let's just go out. Let's pop a bottle of wine.

And during that time, were you dealing with psychological stuff? No. Like were you on psych meds or anything like that? Oh, yeah. I've always been on psych meds. I'm nuts. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm only on antidepressants now and medication for my epilepsy but like i've tried everything i mean they're like you're borderline you're bipolar you're this you're that and it's like the more that i've done the work on myself a lot of that's fallen away and i've started to stabilize but psychologically you know to be hearing that all the time and then also to be you know clearly struggling with this profound drug habit and alcoholism has to be you know emotionally destabilizing like everybody's telling me I have this disorder and that disorder and I can't

stop using drugs like you know that's that's a very desperate state of mind to be walking around with like this is my identity well yeah well I just clung to it and I was like I'm broken so you just said you instead of like shirking from that you just oh i own it yeah i owned it i was like i'm broken and crazy and everyone needs to take care of me and that's how i manipulated my parents and everybody and you know was like i need to be taken care of and you know i'm i got married you know to someone who I thought would take care of me. Well, you know how that ended. Right.

I mean, a lot of the book is about that relationship and, you know, sort of climactic moment. Well, let's talk about that. Okay. You know, so how long were you married before this whole... Three and a half years. Culminating in this episode. Three and a half years. Right.

Okay. And it was crumbling and I was really not a good wife. I was super mentally ill. I was very depressed. I'd lay in bed all day. I was on a lot of medications, and then I would go and tell dick jokes at night. You don't even know I was doing comedy or whatever. When did the comedy come into it?

I started doing comedy around 39 when I first got sober because I was sharing in the rooms and people I was just being honest but I guess I'm so outrageous and so incredibly gruesomely honest that people were hysterical and so a couple comics came up to me and they're like you should really think about doing stand-up um so I did so I started doing stand-up and I ended up touring and it was great yeah I mean it was like it wasn't just like oh I think I'll like try open mic. Like you had a whole thing going on. Yeah. I did for five years.

I was like, you know, at the store, at the improv, I went on a tour with two other sober comics. I did the whole thing and, and it was great. How come you didn't, uh, you know, stay with that? Well, when you get arrested and you have a nervous breakdown and try and kill yourself and relapse and you lose everything you're sort of your your attention is sort of more on like how am i going to survive this divorce and criminal trial and get sober and like find a way to eat versus like you know like you know hey can i get a spot on your 10 o'clock show you know i get that i mean i mean, I get why it was interrupted.

But now with five years. I don't miss it. I don't miss it. So you don't have that like comic thing where like they just have to get up. No, I don't miss it at all. I don't miss it at all. The comedy aspect of itself or just the fact that you have to sort of be in these dark places where people are drinking all the time? You know, I'm older now.

I'm sober. You know, I can be funny in my writing from the comfort of my own home. And I don't have to, I don't want to be around people that are drinking. I don't want to be out at 1230 at night waiting for a spot. I'm just, I'm over it. You're over it, yeah. Yeah, I'm over the grind too, man. You know, it's a grind.

It's hard. Yeah, you got to really, really keep at it. You got, you know, and it's a grind it's hard it's got yeah you gotta really really keep at it you got you know and it's like i just don't have that energy and also i have i really i like writing better because it's like you can deliver a mess like i have a message there's stuff i want to talk about i don't want to just be funny but i also want to be funny because like if that book wasn't funny you'd blow your brains out oh it's just be it's so devastating yeah even even with the humor it's i know people were like i had to put it down it's digestible because of the humor but i knew that though i was like you have i mean going through it i had to

find the humor otherwise i was like i can't i'm not gonna make it through this right and i knew that reading it if i didn't give people some space some levity and some places to kind of take a rest right they were just going to be like oh my god let me grab myself with dental floss right now like oh this is so dark some people rip through it in like a night and other people like i had to put it down and like come back to it like it got so intense where it triggered me so much or whatever but um yeah sorry just don't miss stand-up. Yeah, I get it.

All right, so you're married for three and a half years. It's no bueno. It's unraveling. Yeah, and it's Christmas 2011, and we get in a fight, and I'm high on Oxy that I'd been prescribed for a shoulder injury. I guess I'd had about a year and a half back sober then again. Without AA though? No, I was in AA.

Oh, you were in AA. Yeah. I had three and a half years. I had three and a half years and then I tried to kill myself with my epilepsy meds and my sponsor at the time made me reset my time i'm like i wasn't trying to get high i was trying to die and she's like well did you take your medication as prescribed i'm like no i took all of it she's like there's your answer i was like why epilepsy medicine that was phenobarbital it's phenobarbital yeah it's like what all everyone's dog is on right and so what was going on that made you that desperate?

I was just unhappy in that marriage. That marriage was not good. We were not a good match. It was not good. And he's normie. No comment. Okay. All right, so it's 2011.

And we get in a fight, I just, I pull up knife and I'm like, I'll gut you like a fish, you fat fuck. And he called the cops on me and I got arrested for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon and went to jail. And that was, I mean, I thought I had hit bottom before, but that was a brand. I mean, what, you know, what every parent dreams for their, you know, Beverly Hills daughter who graduated magna cum laude to get arrested for felony domestic violence. You know, I mean, whether I would have done that if I hadn't been high, well, I'll never know. I've never done it since.

I would hope I'm not generally like super violent, although I was pretty abusive in that marriage. I just wasn't, I was really mentally ill at the time and, um, it just wasn't a good match, but yeah. So that was sort of, I lost everything. And, uh, I went to stay with my best friend in Eagle Rock and try and get clean. And of course, you know, a classic alcoholic addict, it's like, you've ruined your life with your addiction. Does that make you stop? No. Now you're going to drink and drug over the mess. Yeah, of course. I mean, yeah, I had a, my version of that, which was like a, you know like a wedding that ended the day that it ended on the honeymoon.

And I haven't seen the woman since. Oh, my God. It's the whole thing. But everybody that I loved was witness to this thing. And it was so horribly demoralizing and painful. And I was so ashamed of it that you'd think, well, that should get you sober. But it took me a year, year and a half of medicating myself because I like, well, that should get you sober. But you know, it took me a year, year and a half of like medicating myself because I couldn't deal with that emotionally.

Of course. So I'm drinking over that. I'm trying to get sober. I'm going to meetings. I'm going, and then, uh, you know, I'll, I'll get some time and then I'll slip and I'll get some time and I'll slip. And, you know, I'm going through this horrible divorce and I just, I took a knife and slit my wrists and sent pictures to, which is so stupid. Like, you know, I sent pictures to my ex and I sent pictures to my friends and I was like, bye, you know, really dramatic,

you know, listening to Nine Inch Nails, like really like, where is everybody on loop? And just like, poor me, like drunk on Four Loko, which is so gnarly, that stuff. And I got 5150 for the fourth time. And that was sort of after that I went into treatment, you know. After that, I went into treatment, you know. The sending the pictures part of it is sort of, seems to me to be half like, I'll show you how much pain I'm in and make you pay. It was totally that.

And the other half is like, I don't really want to kill myself just to cry for help. Exactly. Come and get me before I die. Exactly that. Of course. Of course that you know i think that what's probably the most powerful uh aspect of your book is that it is about relapse it is it's embracing this non-linear path to sobriety because one would imagine if somebody's listening to this and

they're hearing your story for the first time like oh my god you know you pull this knife and this thing happens like that's your moment and then then, you know, you're, you're brought to your knees and then it's the journey to sobriety, you know, and then it's this straight line into, you know, detox treatment, sober living and rebuilding your life. And, and that happens for some people, but that's a small minority of the recovery population. I think so. You know, people are people like relapse doesn't have to be part of recovery i'm like for real like for most people it is yeah i relapsed in the sober living then i relapsed in the next sober living and then i got clean and i've stayed clean since but then i got

this sex addiction it was like i just couldn't i had you know we're gonna talk about and also you know there was that whole period where I was shooting cocaine. Yeah. We haven't even talked about that yet. Oh, God. There's so many chapters. I know. There's stories that aren't even in there, too. It's like.

But the point being that when somebody hears, like when a normal person hears, like, that somebody's struggling with sobriety relapse, is there like, oh, A, it doesn't work, or that person's weak, or why can't they get it? Why don't they understand? They have all the support they need. Relapse is, for most people, an integral part of the journey to sobriety. And I think it's important that people understand if they are struggling themselves or they have somebody that they love or someone who's in their life that is dealing with this right now, that that's normal. I agree. I mean, you know, I learned a lot from my relapses and I also, I mean,

sometimes I thought it would be different. Some, you know, that was the whole thing. I just didn't want to totally give everything up. And I thought, well, I can just smoke pot because I hate pot. Right. It's, you have to do, you all this. No matter how many people tell you, like, look, you got to do it. Like, just let go of your ideas and come in and let us help you. You have to do your own experimentation because you're a precious, unique snowflake. And people don't understand your unique pain

and your story. And like, I'm going to do it this way and it's going to work for me even though everybody says it won't. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I think that, you know, in terms of like saying, you know, I don't think AA is the only way to get sober, nor is it the best way for everyone. That's why there is smart recovery and refuge recovery and whatever gets you sober.

Great. That's my attitude. I'm no, you know, AA works for me because it gives me a compass on not how to be like a total asshole, you know, how to navigate in the world. And, you know, and it's, and it's boiled down from a lot of really cool things from psychology and religions and stuff like that. So it's like, but I'm not like, if you get sober, you know, like, like Mishka, like running great.

Like we're all trying to get to the same location. So who cares how you get there? I don't like this one-upmanship among programs. I don, like running. Great. Like we're all trying to get to the same location. So who cares how you get there? I don't like this one-upmanship among programs. I don't like that. Yeah, I agree with that. I'm totally on your page with that. But I also think it's refreshing that you're somebody who really owns the fact that 12-step like saved your life. And you're proud of that.

And you write about that. Even though I talk, I got, even though I take shots take shots at it well it's fine to take shots at it but you're you're you're you are like a proud card carrying member of of this community and to a certain to a certain extent right yeah and in a climate in which it's all about um you know 12 steps antiquated and it's cognitive behavioral therapy i think that's what it antiquated and it's cognitive behavioral therapy. I think that's what it is. I think it's cognitive behavioral therapy. And for someone like myself, who is driven by emotions, I needed to take the action no matter how I felt. And that's the basis of AA. So I'm when, when you say, oh, well you were in AA and it, you know, you relapsed. And so it means

AA doesn't work. First of all, and this is something, this is a metaphor I always use. So like, okay, I have cancer and I do chemotherapy and I still die. Do people think chemotherapy doesn't work? Of course not. There you go. Right. But it's easy to take a shot at AA for that reason. And that, and that's a big reason why there is the, you know, the, the tradition of anonymity. Yeah. I don't, let's talk about that a little bit because we're very openly talking about 12 step. And I, I, and I've said this before on the podcast, like, like yourself, I've been very open about my addiction and my recovery journey. And I talk about AA and 12 step, but I kind of skirt around the edges of it because I do want to be respectful of that principle. Like I've made a choice about my own anonymity and that's fine.

And I would never like talk about any other people running like that. That's, that's definitely, you know, something I would never do. Um, but I get conflicted when it comes to talking about the principles of this program that saved my life because a traditionalist would say that's verboten to even address that on something like a podcast. And yet, had I been privy to a conversation like this when I was struggling, I might have gone into recovery a lot sooner. Because I thought it was what I saw on television and in movies. Because that's all I knew about it. Of course.

Because it is so shrouded in mystery. And had I had a better understanding of what it could do. That it's not some weird Christian cult. That I might have gone in sooner. Now, I guess that's breaking that tradition. I think it's a different... I mean, I agree with you completely. And I think that there's a lot of misinformation

and a lot of people are like... They think it's some weird Christian cult. That's what they think. Right. And I think there are some problems with the fellowship, for sure. And I do take shots at it and the fellowship is composed of human

beings right so it's a microcosm of the real world you know and I mean what I talk about like the sexual predatory behavior that happens in AA well that happens wherever there's a power hierarchy you know we're seeing it now in Hollywood it happens in the military it happens you know you're taking a bunch

of sick people, you know, and they've put down drugs and alcohol. What are they going to go towards? Sex, caffeine, nicotine, gambling, shopping. They're still going to be trying to get that rush or fill that hole or whatever. So it's like, oh yeah, I've gotten blowback for articles I've written where I take shots. They're like, you know, she's too AA. She's not AA enough. It's like this is not a book about AA.

This is a book about my experiences. It's like, you know, I mean, there's stuff they cut that would, you know, AA people would flip out about. But it's like real. Like I got fucked by a sponsor and stuff like that. It's like during a relapse. It's like that shit happens, though. Yeah, it's terrible. But it's like that shit Like I got fucked by a sponsor and stuff like that. It's like during a relapse. It's like that shit happens though. Yeah, it's terrible.

But it's like that shit happens and people need to know. I mean, I wish someone had pulled me aside and said, okay, you know, you're the hot new meat. Like these are the predators because it's always the same dudes. Right. And it's like just FYI. You know, I wasn't taken aside and pulled into a group of women in the beginning. I was just kind of floundering around. And it's like I was never raped.

I was a willing participant. But it was like I was definitely in a very vulnerable state where I'm counting days or weeks or months. And these guys have double-digit sobriety. And I really sort of just need love and validation and attention. And then when they fuck you and don't ever call you again, throw you away, it's my and i'm really sort of just need love and validation and attention and you know and then when they you know fuck you and don't ever call you again throw you away it's like oh yeah that's bad it's you know it's like i mean they have more respect for that and it's like slaw because that's the main thing of that yeah so and it's like oh and then i was an saa too it's like that how funny are those scenes?

Oh my God. God. We're going to, we're going to work our way up towards that. But while we're on this subject, I am interested. I mean, you've already kind of spoken to this, but the unique experience of what it's like to be a woman in, in AA or in recovery, right? Like it's different than it is for guys. Oh, for sure.

Way different. You know, and also I think in terms of like the anonymity thing, I was writing for recovery, and I still do, write for The Fix. So it's like I was going to meetings and I was in writing for recovery magazines. So I was in this recovery bubble. So I didn't need to be anonymous but when i got out into the real world like if i had like a corporate job like maybe i would feel differently about it of course i mean i make my living off not off talking about this stuff and

it's like i mean my you know my last boyfriend was a normie and i got to see how normies feel about it and it was like very eye-opening in what way specifically well the stuff we laugh about is terrifying to them it's horrifying horrifying they don't think it's funny at all they think you know it's sad they think it's a measure of sickness. They don't realize that we can laugh. They also like were like, you know, he would get in the car and he was like, oh, my God, you have to have the music blasting you. Why do you need constant stimulation? Do you have to drink a six shot latte and be vaping and be rustling? And like, can you not just, you know, he was just horrified by like the consumption, my consumption of everything.

And when I met his parents, we really, you know, everything got put on the DL. Well, she's, you know, had some problems. She was in rehab, you know, six rehabs and four psych wards and three suicide attempts became some problems, you know. And all of a sudden I felt like a weird shame. But I get it it like who wants their son like you know well that's weird too because you're so open about it and you do own it on such a profound level through the work that you do and just the personality that you have you know and then to be in a relationship where you feel like you have to repress that you know i mean

he i was open with him but like you know it freaked him out and it was like yeah i had to sort of kind of keep it on the deal with his parents and that felt like shameful but it's like i get it no one's gonna be like well i hope you marry a junkie you know it's like you know i get it i mean i don't look good on paper you know what i mean you, like the domestic violence and the epilepsy and the mental illness. Like it doesn't look great on paper. Like I get it. But, you know, and I was also sort of, I think it needs to be talked about. I don't think you could break the stigma of addiction without breaking the stigma of recovery.

And I think you have to, I think the most creative, by far most intelligent, brave people have come out of, uh, come out of addictions and what they do. And so it's like, you know, I, I think it's important to own it and to de-stigmatize it. And it's like, some people were like, oh, you say junkie. Like I was on this Canadian podcast and they were like, we were afraid to put your book on our podcast, on our website. Cause you say junkie. I'm like, I mean, to me, that's like owning it. It's like, yeah, there's a fear and there's a shame around that, that isn't helpful. Right. And I think

you're, you're, you're so bold in, in the lengths that you've gone to just own it all the way to the wall. And I think it gives people permission to, uh, to own whatever they're struggling with themselves that's been that's the transformative power of like being so um unfiltered that's been the message the the sort of reception i've gotten from the messages from readers they're like god thank you thank you for being real and raw and you've made me feel so much less ashamed and less alone and And you've made me laugh and I feel better and I have hope. And like, you know, that's the other thing. Like when you relapse for 20 years and then get it together and write a book, like people have hope.

They're like, fuck, you know, she can do it. Right. You know, it's like six rehabs. I'm like, don't give up. You know, it's like, you know, believe me, I had periods where it got really bad shooting coke in my neck. That was like not a good period at all. But it's like, I just, you know, like shooting had periods where it got really bad shooting coke in my neck that was like not a good period at all but it's like i just you know like shooting coke with epilepsy right with the helmet the helmet scene oh god which i thought was so smart wearing a bike helmet so

you don't hurt yourself right i was like i don't want you know because i kept shooting coke and i have a seizure and i was like i don't want to crack my head open but i don't want to stop shooting cocaine oh my god a bike helmet. Right. And it seems, right. Of course, which seemed really brilliant at the time. So insane. I know it's lunacy. Yeah. But I was like, it's a high impact sport.

I got to wear protective gear. Like I get it. You know what I mean? Was that part of your, did you use that in the standup? I think I did. That story. Yeah, I think I did. Does it sound too canned?

Can you tell? No, not at all but like it's so it's so it's so vivid it's so specific I mean my mom even you said

because I'd get emotional and she'd be like honey you sound like you're getting very upset will you put your helmet on please like because my seizures were also

brought on by like like emotion if I'd get really really upset and hysterical bam grandma seizure not you know

as well as like rock star drinks and you know too much caffeine or whatever but um honestly that that's my coping mechanism is i'm ashamed of something so i completely own it right because shame can't survive the light then what are you gonna say oh i oh you're a da-da-da it's like i wrote about it already yeah i already it's out there it's on the page you know i thought i'd feel really sort of nude when the book came out and i'm like oh my god because there's some really very mortifying sex scenes in there but i don't I feel almost freed by it cathartic yeah I feel like you know weirdly armored now I feel sort of yeah I feel like because there's no there's nothing that anybody can pull covers on with you no right yeah I mean my experience my you know my story is nowhere near

as crazy as yours but there was a lot of stuff that when I was writing I did you know I did feel uncomfortable writing but I knew there was no reason to write the book when I was writing, I did, you know, I did feel uncomfortable writing, but I knew there was no reason to write the book unless I was going to write about those things that made me uncomfortable. Like that's the, that's the good stuff. Like without that, there's no point. Right. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Believe me. I wasn't like, God, I can't wait to write this black dildo scene. Like, you know what I mean? I was like more, I was like, I don't want to write this. And that's exactly why you, it's like when you're doing your, your inventory. Yeah.

That's the stuff that has to go on. You'll write all the stuff thing. And then there's like that one thing that I was like, yeah, I just not going to write that. It's like, forget about everything else. That's the one thing that you have to laser in on and focus on. Of course. And that's what you learn.

That's what you learn through this program, through this process of trying to own your bullshit. And so, yeah. So when I was writing it, I was like, I had to get into a mindset of I'm writing a diary and no one's going to read this because otherwise it was too terrifying. And I remember when I turned the book into my editor to the publishing house and the manuscript was done, I said to my wife, I was like, this is either like the worst decision I've ever made in my life, or, you know, this will be what I, what, you know, what I want it to be like. There's no in between, right? Yeah, of course. Totally. And of course, it's those moments of vulnerability that really anchor the book and what people gravitate towards. And you're, there isn't a single page in your book where you're not doing that. And it is so empowering. Like it's very, it's a, it's a very courageous act because you're very extroverted. And, and yes,

you, uh, in some, in some respects, I see you as somebody who kind of almost wears this, wears these stories on your sleeve as armor against, uh, as almost like a, a barrier to intimacy. Like, look at all the crazy stuff i did like that i would imagine that's more of your challenge than the fear of being public about some of these things but i took that off in this last relationship despite it ending i really he wasn't interested he didn't buy into that yeah he was just like i don't see it as being cool i don't think you're a badass i think you're a girl that had some problems. And I think that that's kind of like a measure of how sick you are.

And it makes me sad. So don't pull that card with me that you're like such a badass. So I was very intimate and vulnerable with him. And I took off all that armor and cried more in that relationship. And was really open and loving and vulnerable. And I mean, that just ends. And we were together for another year or year and a half after that right and then he broke up with me in april and wow i really fell through the floor i was like you know my first thoughts were like i'm gonna kill myself and then my second thought was i'm gonna use and i was like

that'll be awesome when the book comes out they're like well our author can't be here but she's skyping in from her eighth rehab amy are you there and i just thought you know and i and also i just i couldn't burn my life to the ground again and do it it was just i didn't have it so what was different that allowed you to take the contrary action this time i just was like okay it's a heartbreak and people survive it and it sucks. And I'm going to feel my feelings and they are not going to kill me. And it's okay to feel like shit. And I cried and cried and cried and I lost a ton of weight. Like I'm still haven't put all my weight back on. Like people were like, are you ill? Like, you know, I looked, I, you know, it's back to like my weight when I was anorexic,

I started smoking again and I'm still not totally over it. It's like eight months and I still cry. I still dream about him and it's like really painful. But you had enough, but I didn't go into, but I didn't go into like a weird sex addiction place either. I just, I've been celibate since I've just been like,

okay, close for renovation. Like, you know what I mean? Like we're going to sort just been like okay close for renovation like you know what I mean like we're gonna sort this like yeah you know like all right let's let's heal and figure it out I just knew it wasn't that's huge growth I mean that's to to undergo something as emotionally painful as that and not do what you've been doing your entire life like to I mean did you double down on your program i mean you made the phone calls like what prevented you from you know reaching out for the thing that you've always used to because i just knew i just i respect my disease too much whatever it is i don't even like to say

disease whatever it is whatever it is and i'm terrified of my epilepsy. And I couldn't do that. You know, honestly, my dad was so proud. My mom was so proud. I couldn't do it to my publisher and my agent. And I just, I had put something out into the world to give people hope. And I couldn't, you know, not like I'm some fucking hero. But it was like, you know, you can't write a thing of like, that gives people hope and then relapse before it comes out.

I just couldn't do that to people. And it was like, what? That's what happened to me. Did you really? Yeah. Oh shit. I was finishing Finding Ultra. It was 2011.

I've talked about this on the podcast before. And, and I had a one-day relapse. It's a long story. I won't go into it now because people who listen to this have heard it before. But, I mean, it was literally five beers and I was at an AA meeting that night. And it was over. And it was over. But it was devastating.

Yeah. It was devastating for a zillion reasons. Of course. You know, to do that. My family saw me. My wife saw me. that my family saw me my wife saw me my youngest daughter saw me and you know i was a guy who at that time had how many years 13 years oh 11 years something like like the person who like i got it together i'm the one who people

call you know i'm the guy who's sponsoring i think that's very dangerous and i actually just wrote a piece about that. Super dangerous. Because then you don't feel like you can be honest when you're struggling. And you don't feel, and so many people don't come back. Like you went back. Yeah, I went right back. And thank God.

But so many people don't. They blow their brains out. Yeah, my sobriety is better than ever as a result of that. There you go. In retrospect, it was what I needed. I needed some humility. And I needed my ego to be removed from the equation. But it was devastating.

And to be on the precipice of releasing a book that was about my addiction story. And I couldn't, I mean, look, I made all those phone calls you don't want to make. That night crying with my friends and called people know, called, called people, you know, um, and those are very hard phone calls to make. Uh, and so everybody in my recovery community, like knew what was going on and I, and I own it. And every time I speak, I tell the story, but I never, I didn't, I didn't own it publicly for a couple of years because I was so deeply ashamed of it. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, it was untenable.

Like I was like I had to do like I did a whole podcast episode where I was like, this is what happened. Like I just couldn't live with I couldn't live with that dissonance. Of course. Yeah. Because it was eating me alive. Yeah. Yeah. Shame was so profound, even though I was owning it in a different in a private forum.

I needed to like own it publicly of course it was such a relief and you know my sobriety is you know it's it's great now like everything is amazing but I know what that feels like like I made the wrong choice you made the right choice yeah I just was like I can't I just was like I will not I will not and I just I have done that experiment so many times and what is it gonna numb it it's not gonna bring him back it's not gonna fix it it's just gonna fuck everything up and i just thought no way man i'm not doing it again but feeling feelings like normal people fuck that shit like it is I slept a lot. I, I mean, I cried so much.

My neighbors heard me just wailing like a little girl. Rather than trying to avoid those feelings, just allowing yourself to feel them. Yeah, but I start smoking. I start smoking again. I was like, you know, now I'm vaping and it's like eight months later. I'm like, oh, you know, but I was like, you know, I, I, but I let myself have it. I was like, you know what? If I'm going to pick up something, let's pick that up i but i let myself have it i was like you know what if i'm gonna pick up something let's pick that up i'll let myself i wanted to just take the edge off and it doesn't

really do that but i didn't sexually act out i didn't you know try and destroy him i just and i you know and and i feel stronger through it it's like you know feelings come in waves and i survived that and usually you know like my divorce really took me out and and other relationships ending have really taken me out that's been a big big thing for me is men and that you know and relapsing over men and so the fact that I survived that and stayed sober, you know, I was like, yeah. So that gave, I have new sort of like a resiliency to me and I knew belief and I know I can get through it now. Like if I got through that and kind of get through anything. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about the the sex stuff because i think it also it's important you know for people can we light some incense we can i have it right there just for you um for people to understand when you know when you remove like the drugs and the alcohol are the solution not the problem of course right and when you remove them, it's not all, it's not a rose garden. No way. You're a raw nerve. You have all these crazy emotions that are percolating up. You're so uncomfortable in your own skin. You don't have any tools for how to manage that. And so what happens traditionally in many cases, most cases, probably is you, you know, whether it's conscious or unconscious, you start finding other ways to get out of how you feel. So whether that's shopping or gambling

or watching television. Why couldn't it have been exercise? Why? Why? Why, God? Training for Ultraman, you know, or sex, right so, um, you know, sex becomes a big thing for you. And it's a huge part of this book and it's painful to read about all these things, but it's so powerful because I think this is something that, you know, I think a lot of people go through, even people that aren't, you know, quote unquote addicts or alcoholics and sobriety, you know, quote unquote addicts or alcoholics and sobriety, like people who seek out, um, sex to, you know, fill that hole and the places that, you know, that takes you. Oh, they cut, they cut some of the really, they cut a lot of stuff. I mean, I was much sluttier than that book. They cut a lot of the stories for narrative arc. It's narrative arc.

So important, which is like, you know, and it's it's like you know it's very hard to do a really good narrative arc when you've had 9 000 times that you've eaten sand too it's like like how many times can you tell a story you know you know and then she got it together and it's like and then she relapsed then she got together and then she that's what it'd be like if it was linear um yeah they cut some of the stuff not because it was like shocking because there's obviously plenty of shocking stuff in there but um they cut some of the stuff just for i guess they felt it was repetitive um it was that was the most painful thing i've ever been through. There are people now that don't think sex addiction exists. I have no idea whether that's true or not.

All I know, to me, it was absolutely a manifestation of my alcoholism. It wasn't a separate thing. I was very clear on that. So explain that. In other words, what you're saying is you're not drinking and using, but you still have this compulsion. To compulsion to get out. Right. I got, I got to get out. I got to get out. I got to numb my feelings. I got to get out of myself, you know? And so I needed to stay clean because I was in sober living and I was doing my, I was sweeping the streets. So doing my

community labor on the chain gang. And your roommate was like, I'm not sure what part. Your roommate was like a high paid escort, right? No, she wasn't. Which one? I don't know. You had a bunch. But there was at one point, right? You know.

Oh, yeah. Oh, in rehab. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that was in rehab. That was way before.

That was in sober living. Yeah. And there. So I had to stay sober it was the last it was really literally the last like house on the block there was nowhere to go and my parents were over it and we talked about they were just like we're done my dad was like i'm done so done like i'm so exhausted with the roller coaster and you've financially and emotionally draining me i'm so over it Like call me with good news or don't call me. Like I was like, Ooh, so it was like the rug had been pulled.

I was on medical disability. My ex was like, you know, my ex-husband had left me. It was like, you know, fuck you. No money. Like, you know, I was like, it was me and I had to keep it together, but I was in so much pain and I was so scared and so confused about how to navigate in the world because I'd never done it before. Like said I'd always been like I'm broken and everyone will take care of me and people did so all of a sudden now I'm in my

40s and no one's taking care of you yeah it's like really an outgrown behavior you know and it's but I'm still using and it's like it's over no one's you know no one's gonna pay anything no one's gonna take care of me i'm in my 40s and it's like it's embarrassing and i just i don't even know exactly how it started but tinder was the death of me i mean that's like you know as i say in the book it's like ebay for cock it's like too easy you got good pictures like you're good looking you know and it's specifically designed to be addictive oh i know it's like i've never been on it oh it's brutal oh yeah i haven't been on it for years it's like i won't touch that i'm like scared of it yeah because it's like a it's like a it's

like a slot machine it's like ding match and it's like and then you just you get this hit of dopamine and it's like so but you know i don't know how male sex addicts feel. For me, part of it was the divorce backlash. Part of it was, you know, I'd been celibate for seven years during my life. Like I'd always had a really weird relationship with sex. I was really kind of shut down and couldn't own it. And so I was, part of it was like, I'm going to fuck you. You know, I'm going to own this. And I was trying to do that like pro'm gonna fuck you you know I'm gonna own this and I was

trying to do that like pro like you know I'm not a slut I'm a stud and like you know pro sex thing but um I wanted love I was hoping all those guys would be my boyfriend and call me and fall in love with me and you know or hold me and they didn't and i tried to have this you know attitude of like you set up the rules though if you're going if you're going into it with like you know i'm i'm gonna you know this is what it is and you know with that kind of no but i tried to change the rules too there was one that's not in there where i was like hey i don't want to just you know get you know boned once and never called again like you know i want like a lover are you down he was like yeah totally don't say anything to get laid come on so you know and then not calling yeah of course um and it was totally devastating i never felt so much shame and i would be driving home

crying and go i'm never doing this again and then i'd be doing it again. And I was like, God, this is exactly like my drug addiction. It's so frightening. It was exactly the same. You know, even driving to meet someone new, you'd be like shaking with anticipation, like going to score dope. Your brain was like, you know, it was like the excitement and you knew what was coming. It was like, it was just, it was, it was really intense. And so how did you bottom out with that? I had an experience in the book that was fucking mortifying, as you know.

And I called someone in SAA, Sex Addicts Anonymous, and for help. Of course, it was a guy, which was probably the mistake. And said, you know, I just did something really, really embarrassing. And he's like, are you hurt? And I was like, well, my asshole hurts. And he's like, well, you know, yeah. He's like, but are you emotionally, like physically really hurt? And I said, no. And he's like, you know, this is what we do. Like, you're okay. And then he ended up like masturbating on the phone. And I was just like, fuck this shit.

Fuck that program. I was like, fuck this program. Fuck those programs. You know what? I was like, I just didn't recognize myself anymore. And I was like, done. I'm done with this. I'm done.

I'd hit, I just hit a bottom that just shifted it. And know it's like as my sponsor says like you know you stop a behavior when what it's doing for you is um when what it's doing to you is worse than what it's doing for you and that's exactly what happened it was just that was so mortifying and that was really betrayal yeah and that also yeah i was just like, yeah, fuck. There's, I was like, there's no recovery in that program. I mean, I'm sure there is, but it was like, so I just, I was like done, you know, but then I got in a sort of almost like a love addiction thing with the guy that became, you know.

You can say I'm done, but that doesn't mean that you've healed from that yeah i well i will never go back to that behavior i mean i just also i'm older and it's like yeah no um if i would have gone back to it i would have gone back to it already i think um and then i sort of like you know fell in love with this guy and was sort of in my you know, fell in love with this guy and was sort of in my like weird love addiction stuff or whatever. I mean, I don't know. That's my problem with those programs is they pathologize everything. Why couldn't I have just fallen in love and didn't want to fuck anyone else?

Like, why is it love addiction? Like they pathologize everything. And it's like, that was my problem with those programs, besides the fact that they did not like me in those meetings why because you're challenging them yeah well just you know you read the one where there's the female like saa meeting there's one female saa meeting in all of los angeles and i went to it and they were horrified by me i guess you're not supposed to use bone as a verb that's not very respectful to the disease of sex addiction not even that just like they didn't think i was taking it

seriously or whatever and it was like i don't know it's hard for me to take that serious like as a fatal illness when you've you know had a needle in your neck yeah it's tricky. I mean, I can see the argument to pathologize a behavior when it's a reaction to a wound and it's conducted in an unhealthy way. And there is something to be said about having sex with someone with real intimacy. I was like, this is it. This is a completely different experience. And it was, you know, really healing and really wonderful. Right. And just because it ended doesn't mean that it was a failure. Right. It was I would imagine it was it was healing and it was a growth experience. it was healing and it was a growth experience. Absolutely. And I was an amazing partner and I never knew I could be an amazing partner. I was a really, really,

even he would tell you that, like he was like, you're the best girlfriend I've ever had. It was like, and I think that I had been a really shitty wife and maybe I was doing like a living amends and I, I, maybe I overgave and I just, I really loved him.

And I got into a very nurturing maternal sort of loving wifey, you know, doing his laundry and a cook firm. And I loved it. And then I was like, it felt really good. And that was also after, remember, I had taken care of the baby. So I kind of had that shift where, so I can be a good partner. And now I know that I'm a good partner. And so now I can wait for someone to be a good partner. So then how do you currently think about the relationship between unhealthy behaviors and addiction?

Because as somebody who's five years sober, who's not using, who's not drinking, but now you have an understanding of kind of what your triggers are. You're not having sex. Yeah, it's like, all right, well, what the fuck is left, right? It's like they say the road gets narrower. Yeah, it's like, all right, well, what the fuck is left, right? It's like they say the road gets narrower. It's like all these things that used to be like, you know, like, oh, I can't watch TV for 10 hours in a row anymore.

Like, I can't do that. I can't do this. I can't do, you know, it's like, what is left, right? The road is narrower. So, and we can pathologize all of these behaviors. Or we can just recognize that this is our disease sort of flaring up in a certain way and understand, oh, I need to temper it there. I need to kind of look at that and maybe not do that. Or maybe I need to double down on some of this work so that I don't behave that way next time. But it doesn't have to become, you know, a mushroom cloud of shame over like, because you ate ice cream or

something like that. So where where is it because it is that like water balloon when you squeeze it it starts popping up in all these different places like where do you feel it like doing that now sleeping i really don't know if you don't sleep no i sleep all the time oh yeah i mean part of it is epilepsy meds but I think you know sometimes when I'm just like oh I can't deal I'll just nap so I'm gonna start napaholics part of that is self-care I think so too I feel like it's just rebooting like I unplug I'm sorry there's nothing like a massage and a nap won't fix like you just you know I go get a massage, you know, not like a happy ending massage, like just like a normal massage. I'm really into I don't think I'm a workaholic.

I mean, I'm still too lazy to do that. But it's like, you know, I'm really busy promoting the book. I write. I have an editing job on the side. You know, we're in a serious negotiation. Like I'm just trying to be really productive and i guess i get my high from the fact that the book is helping people i mean i cry i get messages and i just cry and i just i and i write everyone back and i'm just like i'm so and I write everyone back and I'm just like, I'm so, I'm like, you made my day. Like, thank you.

So happy that it helped you. So thrilled that you feel like it came along at the right time or that I, I'm the voice that you can hear and nothing else. And like, they're like, you're so honest and raw, you know, you're funny. And so it's like, you know, even my dad said, he just said, I have no more anger or sadness about what you went through because i really feel very strongly that you went through all of that so you could write this book so you could help people and there is no higher calling and so and i was just like so yeah it is there is no higher calling like it's an amazing i mean getting those messages i get them every day i'm gonna cry um it's so fucking moving it's from and it's like it's a it's a physical manifestation of the your primary purpose yeah and it's like also

but also i mean think about the balls it takes for these people to just reach out to someone they don't know and some of them freak out i write back and they're like oh my god you wrote me back like i'm like i'm just a junkie who wrote a book who has a cat yeah like it's well you've given them permission to be open and honest yeah they tell me their stuff so what's what's happened to me and what it sounds like is happening to you is you get these amazing letters where people are opening their hearts and they're telling you things that they've never told totally you know and that's a very special, precious thing. Because that permission is the first step that that person perhaps is taking towards their own healing.

Absolutely. I totally agree with you. But the book for you, it didn't come out of the blue. I mean, you made a decision years ago that you were going to start writing about this subject yourself and about addiction in general. So what was that decision about like when did you first decide like I'm gonna start expressing myself about this path that I'm on well I was chronicling some of this stuff years ago I always wanted to write a book back with the collages right back yeah even back but the tweaking collages it on the fourth day up oh my god um and then also through the

cocaine shooting the cocaine and the depression and the suicide attempts and even some of the earlier sobriety i have i have you know three half finished novels on my on my computer and old hard drives and i always wanted to do it but like I said there was never a place where I felt like I had landed that there was really a story to tell it was just like and she just kept relapsing you know and so it was when I got arrested to the community labor well see okay and also you can't write a book unless you can at least put together a couple years of sobriety well I agree what are you talking about yeah what unless you can at least put together a couple years of sobriety. Well, I agree. What are you talking about?

Yeah. What are you talking about? I mean, I was three years sober when that book, when I finished that book, but I'm almost five years sober now. That's how long it takes to, you know. Of course. Like copyright, legally, you know, all that stuff. I started writing for the addiction recovery magazine, The Fix, in 2012. And I started chronicling all that stuff.

And then also when I got arrested, I was sentenced to a year of domestic violence class and 240 hours of community labor. So it's me and 20, you know, 40 cholos sweeping trash on the street. And of course, like you said, instead of like a lot of the people there were like, you know, 40 cholos sweeping trash on the street. And of course, like you said, instead of like, a lot of the people there were like, you know,

we can be friends on Facebook, but don't mention that this is what I'm doing, that you met me here. Like, you know, like you met me at a premiere or whatever. Like, you know, it's just like, whatever, you know. I chronicled it on Facebook. I was like, another day on the chain gang, you know, look at the jewels I found sweeping the streets. And I would take, another day on the chain gang, you know, look at the jewels I found sweeping the streets. And I would take pictures of stuff on the street and like what I learned that day

and like whatever my experience. And people were like, oh my God, they were bummed when it ended. They were bummed when I finished. Well, it's so great too, because it is a perfect example of something that somebody would just be so mortified about that they'd be like, I have to do this. But the last thing I'm going to do is like, you know, post on Facebook. I was just like, fuck it. I was like, you know, you know, I would totally tell stories. I would show pictures. People were really bummed when it was over.

They were like, get arrested again. I was like, hey, guys, calm down. You're like binging on your like Netflix series of like cleaning up the highway. It was like that. Honestly honestly that was life-changing that was that changed me more than anything because it made you realize like oh people are connecting to this like you know no because i when i was sweeping the streets first of all talk about humbling i mean no one talks to you except for like and you're wearing the orange thing right

no I had like a tan dicky shirt that said clean team on the back or if we were doing like graffiti removal we had like yellow like business you know I don't know you know beautification team or whatever it was like different you know it was different different areas but no one talked to us we were

criminals except for like drunk homeless people who'd be like stay out of the pen you know or whatever it's like except for like drunk homeless people would be like, stay out of the pen, you know, or whatever. It's like, you know, and a couple of people would be like, I love the environmentalism you're doing. Like, how do I become part of this? You know, I was like, just get arrested. It's so easy. It's not that hard. Pull a knife on your husband.

It was really humbling. And it was really exhausting. And I learned about hard work and labor and finishing something that you start and the consequence, taking the full consequences of your actions. Yeah. In the book, it's, you vividly describe like just when you would come home after the day and just collapse. It was so exhausting. I mean, you would be fine because of the kind of like exercise you did.

It's a different kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, it was gnarly and it changed me. I've never been the same. And I think losing everything changed me too. I'd never been happy. It'd never been enough. And then all of a sudden just being sober and, you know, not having to be on the chain gang.

And I mean, you know know even the last relationship we were living in inglewood and we were living in a pool house and we were so poor together but i was in love and it was enough wherein before i was married and living in this condo and driving an eight thousand dollar car and i was miserable and so it's like having money would be terrific and it's nice but it doesn't make you happy um i forget even what your question was now it's like well i mean it was just about what you got out of that experience i mean behind that was the beginning of starting to share all of this stuff publicly oh yeah well i'm all that's i mean people are like you have no filter it's like okay i mean i don't that's my blessing and my curse right you know um but what was i i was so

was i gonna pretend i was doing i mean there's that joke i mean it's in the book where this other girl was like i found her twitter she was sort of like a famous chick on she had a reality show and she goes just finished hiking with underprivileged children for eight hours i was like really is that what you call sweeping syringes and bum shit for eight hours on fucking Hollywood? Did you reply to her and say that? No. You didn't out her.

But I was like, wow. And I just thought. She's ashamed. I mean, that's the normal. Well, everyone was.

No one else owned it. No one else owned it. See, that's the thing. Like you're, you're angry at her, but that was, that's what.

I'm not angry. I think it's funny. I just think it's like. Most people would not do what you did. You know it's like she's you know i mean she was also notorious for being notorious so it's like why just not own it i mean but everyone else was like there was you know a publicist and i know a teacher and a lawyer i can understand them not being like you know right because they got jobs yeah that you know where people are gonna disrespect them for it where i i'm at the bottom, so there's nothing to disrespect.

But you began writing and, I mean, yeah, you write for The Fix, but like your stuff is all over the place. I mean, Salon, Huffington Post. Where else have you written? Vice. Yeah, Vice. That's right. Started writing for Tonic. Yeah, it's cool.

So there's and there's a lot. I mean, I'll link in the show notes. I'll put links up to all to all your stuff stuff but you got like tons and dozens and dozens of articles out there i mean people also repost stuff that i don't even know you know but my my main thing is like been the fix you know i'm like their girl and the fix is still going strong yeah and they let me use pieces that i from you know they let me use pieces of articles yeah no i know and they they publish excerpts of the book there as well and so did tonic is Anna David still part of the fix no she I didn't think so yeah yeah but she was my first editor um in 2012 she asked me to

become she was like write a piece about sex and dating and sobriety and I was like she's like I think you'd be great I was like why because I'm a fuck bunny because I was slut, she's like, I think you'd be great. And I was like, why? Because I'm a fuck bunny? Because I was slutty? You know, I had like a reputation? Or because I was funny and I wrote a piece and people flipped out and loved it. And so that's how I started writing. So I'll always be grateful for her bringing me in and that entree, even though she's not there anymore. I think the sex and the relationship stuff is super powerful.

And your willingness to be so honest about that. I think, I mean, if I was like, if I was giving you advice about the next book or I would go deep into that because whether somebody, you know, is in sobriety or struggles with drugs and alcohol, like all of that aside, like the relationship piece is super powerful and people that don't have substance problems really struggle in that regard. course and the fact that you're willing to like go all the way to the wall you know with what you've undergone what you've what you've you know experienced with respect to that i think it helped a lot of people yeah i mean i write on my psychology today blog and i also write i wrote some pieces for your tango about relationship stuff and how to fight without knives, you know.

Well, you know how to fight with knives. You know, how to be loving and respectful and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, I mean, there is always that fear of being super vulnerable with all that stuff that like who's gonna want to date me or marry me like that's the fear that's beneath it still for sure yeah like because like who you know it's like you know i mean there's a lot of deal breakers there's got to be someone who's really kind of you know accepting it's like so i was- But there's a warrior strength though. There's a certain courage that's required to like own it the way you do.

And I think that that puts you in a different category. You know, it's like- I never think of it as that. I just, you know, it's like, everyone's like, you're so brave. It's like, honestly, that's just who I am. I'm just like, I just say it. Like maybe it's the epilepsy. Maybe it just

blew out that filter. You know what I mean? It is the frontal lobe. Like where that thing, like, maybe I should say that. Maybe I shouldn't. That part is like broken. That's where the, that's the seizure center. Like I don't even. Yeah, but you were like that before you had epilepsy. That's true. Good call. Good call. So tell me about the, can you talk about the series? I can't really. It's just, there's interest. It's negotiations. It's very exciting.

It would be wonderful. I would, it would be a dream. That's incredible. It would be a dream. Yeah. And I would love to have the opportunity to accurately portray addiction and addicts in all of our, you know, rock star, needy, multi-layered glory and accurately portray rehabs and accurately portray meetings. And all of it let people in. It's like, that's the other thing.

It's like, you know, talk about the anonymity. It's like that's the other thing it's like you know talk about the anonymity it's like i'm sorry have you seen judd apatow show love she's in meetings it's like there's people there's a meetings are in movies now it's on tv we had celebrity rehab we had sober house it's like if you intervention if you say you're in recovery what do people think you're in recovery from cancer no i mean they know you know and it's like they know so if we are talking about it let's try to talk about it honestly and portray it as accurately yeah i mean i think that if like you said some people like well your book you know you take shots at a i think it's bad for newcomers i can't even tell you how many people have said,

you've inspired me to get sober. And I say, hey, go to a meeting. Get a sponsor. Work the steps. You know, I don't, just because I don't think the program is perfect or the fellowship is perfect or the program is perfect.

I mean, I think the program is perfect, but it's like, I mean, the God stuff still freaks me out a little bit. I'm a little bit weirded out by that, but I know plenty of atheists who have stayed sober doing the steps. Because like I said, it's like, I mean, the God stuff still freaks me out a little bit. I'm a little bit weirded out by that. But I know plenty of atheists who have stayed sober doing the steps. Because like I said, it's cognitive behavioral therapy. That's exactly what someone who can mind fuck themselves and talk and is so super smart and driven by their emotions needs. I learned to show up no matter how I feel.

And that's part of maybe how I got through the breakup was like, I kept my job. I showed up, I'd be crying, brainstorming humor for her column, but I'd be crying, but I was still there showing up. Yeah. I learned how to show up. Finally. I never had done that before. I'd always, you know, Nope. Can't do it. Yeah. It taught me that it, uh, it saved my life. It's still, It's still the priority of my existence to this day. And it's weird because as much as I talk about it, I still get messages every day from people who are struggling who say, are you still in AA? Are you like, what do you do? What should I do?

I know, right? That's really tough. I get those too. Like, what should I do? Yeah, well, it's like, but all I can tell you is like, all I can do is share my experience. And my experience is that when I went to AA, my life changed. So set aside whatever preconceived ideas you have, whatever issues you have, stop questioning it and just like, go like raise your hand, find somebody who looks like somebody you

can talk to and like, tell them the truth. Absolutely. There's no other advice for me to give other than that. Yeah. I know people are asking, ask me and I'm like, I'm not a therapist. Like, you know, it's like, I mean, I have a, I have a sponsee now. I didn't, I hadn't had sponsees for a while and I was like, you know, calling my sponsor and he was like, God, I'm so sick of you talking about your ex-boyfriend in the book.

Like get some sponsees. Shut up. Get out of yourself. Get out of your self-involvement. He's just like, oh, killing me. me so and that's the other thing i have a male sponsor people get really weirded out by that i know i'm the rebel of a people get really weirded out by that and it's like you know i mean if you're gonna do i just he had what I wanted. He had a very long marriage, a successful marriage.

And I heard him speak about the traditions as applied to relationships. And I cried through the entire share. And he also is a very compassionate person. And he is a hospice nurse. And I wanted to learn how to be in a relationship. And I wanted to learn how to be really loving and compassionate. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you're supposed to find somebody that you feel comfortable with, who has what you want and who has enough experience in the areas that you feel like you want to develop. Yeah.

I mean, the whole thing of like same sex sponsorship. What if you're gay? You can crush out on your sponsor. Well, it's not in the big book. I mean, the whole thing of like same sex sponsorship. What if you're gay? You can crush out on your sponsor. Well, it's not in the big book. I know. That's the reason to I'm not a big book thumper, but that's the reason to read the big book is to know. So, you know, like what's bullshit? What's just like talk like stuff that's being talked about in the rooms. It's not the real deal. Like not, you know, dating in the first year. That's not in the book either. Like not, you know, dating in the first year. That's not in the book either. All that stuff, you know.

I just feel like, again, with all the rules, like just do how it works. Do it so that it works for you. But I agree with you. It's like I think people have these weird ideas about AA and that's sort of why. I mean, yeah. Who's newly in AA and is like, I love it. You know what I mean? I was super angry.

And I was like, that was a really strict meeting. Come on, it was a 90-minute book study and I'm newly sober. I wanted to. Yeah, you're not there because you want to be there. Yeah, I mean, so I was just being honest, you know, about it all. But the honesty is what saves your ass. Did you cry? In my first meeting?

No, did you cry in my book? Did I cry in your book? Did you cry? No, I laughed. I in your book did you cry some people laughed i didn't cry you did you did laugh yeah what made you laugh uh i think just i'm trying to remember what episode specifically episode yeah yes i mean that series the uh you know the picking up trash stuff it's pretty funny you know i mean it's good it was really fun i had funny oh i had to find but it's hard it's funny in a heartbreaking way it is that like you know comedy is tragedy like it's tragic you're seeing this person just like continue to stumble downward you know yeah and then you feel guilty about laughing but really did you feel guilty well just because it's it's like you want to just

you know it's i feel like she just i just want to hug her i know and tell her it's gonna be okay yeah some people said like i sorry but i like really enjoyed reading about your pain and i'm like that is okay yeah you know that's totally i mean i wrote it like you said with some levity because otherwise i mean i had to find the levity when I was going through it. I really, I had that moment where I was just like, okay, like we have to do this or we're going to go to jail. So what's the gift here? Right. This can be the best thing that happened to you or the worst thing that happened to you.

And it's your decision. It's your divine moment. Yeah. And it's like, okay, like it's your at you know you get to shift your attitude it was really the it was like almost like it was really an epiphany in my life do you are you are you somebody who looks back on it now with gratitude oh god yeah this is what had to happen for me to absolutely i had to lose everything so i could be grateful and make it and and build it back on my own so I could have self-esteem.

I think that when you're privileged and you're given everything, it cripples you in a weird way. I never did anything because I didn't have to and then I felt like I couldn't and then I didn't. And it was this horrible cycle. and it was this horrible cycle. And so... You had to be dismantled and dragged through the mud for years in order to wake up and... And it's like, I mean, sweeping the streets, I mean, created a sense of unity and compassion for other people

that I'd never had before. It was like, you know, growing up in Beverly Hills and all this stuff, it was like, well, that'll never happen to me. And it's like, I'm here to tell you, like, or getting arrested for felony, like all the things or shooting up in your neck, all of it. Psych wards, like you, anything can happen to you. You are not immune. So if there's someone else and they've gone through that, have compassion. That could be you.

I'm here to tell you. That could be you. I'm here to tell you that absolutely could be you under the right or wrong circumstances with the right mix and wrong. Just right. I mean, that all those things that I and I was just like, wow, I'm not immune. And it really humbled me and connected me with other people in a way that I hadn't been before. Well, the rooms are full of people who say, you know, I never thought I would do this or I never thought I would do that.

And then here's what happened. Right. Right. Of course, crossing that line, that line, that line. But back to that point you made a couple of minutes ago about, about like, you know, you do you like, you know, whatever works for you to get sober, like do it your way. I'm with you to a certain extent on that but i think it's also important for people to understand like part

of getting sober is setting aside your idea what you think you need to do you know it's like you need to have your you need to go in humble oh i agree humility set aside your idea of what you think it's like your best thinking got you here buddy you know what i mean oh i totally agree with you know you're not you're not here because you ain't got no problem yeah so you need to like listen oh yeah and be willing to do the work direction and do something a little bit different than what you've been oh i totally agree with you i meant sort of like the god stuff take the god stuff or throw you know but like i have I have sponsees. I mean, I'm from a lineage. That's a lot of step work, a lot of step work. That's a lot of writing. It's a lot of going to meetings, you know, and, um, I am not the harshest sponsor in the world. And, but I'm not the easiest either. It's a lot of work, you know? And it's like, I'll cut, I've cut people loose. I'm not,

I don't have time for it. i don't have time for it i don't have time for it like if you don't want i can't care about your sobriety more than you care about it like you gotta want you gotta want to do it yeah you gotta do the work it's for people that want yeah and it's like get your hand up do the things that are uncomfortable that's how you change oh you're shy you don't feel like sharing i don't give a shit like you know like that kind of stuff like get a commitment and like i mean i got it was so funny i was i was uh i've been i've been in a little bit of a depression and you still i mean just because you get sober doesn't mean life stops like still you know i'm lonely you know i'm like i mean the

book has changed you know like it's changed my life and it hasn't changed my life you know what i mean you think it's gonna be mishka gets so mad at me we fight all the time i like called him to complain and he handed me my ass and a facebook message and he knew i was mad because i wouldn't i didn't really realize i was like okay and then basically saying like get over yourself yeah just like wake up like i didn't get this opportunity and i didn't get that opportunity and like blah, blah, blah. And it's like this is your first book. And like basically that I was ungrateful and like just, you know, move on to the next thing and be grateful for the, you know, I'm complaining about opportunities he didn't have. And I'm like, you know, and his, you know, his Kindle single sold really, really well.

And it was like he just really was harsh with me and i was so pissed and i didn't make fun of his body hair for like weeks or tell him that he was hot or anything like that and so he knew i was mad and then finally i made a comment on something you know i'd usually give like when he has a habit trail and i'd be like what are you a 13 year old girl like a lot of like with a mustache you know whatever and then finally he uh i said something goes oh good you're not mad at me anymore and i go how did you know i was mad he's like because you didn't give me any shit you know right and he um he told me to send the book to doug stanhope who fucking loved it yeah i'm not surprised i mean doug doug well doug loves mishka you know yeah and you know and it's it's it's an odd thing you

know i just listened to doug on joe rogan's podcast the other day i was like that guy's so out of control you know but he was just like but the fact that he like he loves you he loves mishka he likes having these like sober success stories around him which is super interesting like i don't know what that's about well maybe one day he's gonna well his mom was in a and it was like he mishka was like send doug stanhope the book and i was just like god he's like he's like really likes drinking like i don't think he's gonna like this book like really like you know and i sent him the book fucking loved he. He tweeted about it. He was like 10 pages in. I knew I'd be here all night.

Buy it now. And he put the Amazon link. I was like, God, I love you. And he was just like, I loved your book because it's honest. Like he,

he appreciates like the unapologetic, like in your face, your face, honesty. Like this is what it is. You know what I mean? Cause that's, that's what he's all about in a very different way.

But like he, he identifies with that aspect of, and he said, you know i loved your book i blocked out when you became the needy cunty girlfriend and you got sober but the rest of it i loved i was like yeah he loves all the just like grow like just me and the psych wards and the boning stories and the just trash and the needles and it's funny when you go on Amazon, like one of the books, it's like people who also looked at the book, it's like his book. He's been so nice. We've emailed, and he's like the nicest guy.

He's been extremely supportive. I don't know him, but from what I understand from Mishka, he's a very loyal person. Really, really, really sweet. And, I mean, he wants me to come on his podcast. I told Mishka, I'm like, all right, right you and i take a road trip to bisbee you're gonna actually go to bisbee that would scare me what what would scare you mishka and i in the car no not you guys no like me like i like the idea of going to be like i just like being in this compound

in the middle of nowhere that's like party central like i was like i i tell mishka i was like i don't know. Being in this compound in the middle of nowhere that's like party central. I was like, I tell Mishka, I was like, I don't know how you do it, man. Like, how do you go down and hang out at Stan Hope's place in Bisbee and go on the road and be in all these dive bars and playing? You know, it's like it would wear on me, man. It would be really difficult. Well, that's why he wants to go with me. Yeah. He's afraid that I'll go down there with five years and come back come back without

like i would um but i mean i did you know i did comedy and i was around booze and drugs and everyone was high and drinking and doing blood you know it's like it's just like the day and like if you're like with mishka's just touring he's in those places like every night oh i mean it's just to me it's just like it's not like oh this looks good it's like it almost looks bad but it's like it's i mean drunk people are annoying when you're sober that's what you realize you're just like oh i mean i was super irritating when i was when i was drunk i thought i was you know i thought i was terrific and funny and like and everyone was just like oh what an asshole it's like it was just was for me, it was that relief.

You know, I just didn't care what anyone thought. I care so much. Even though you're like, oh, you're so brave. It's like, I care so much what people think. I pretend not to and I try not to. Of course, you're a sensitive alcoholic. You know, but it's like, you know, my dad's like, don't ever read the comments. Don't ever read the reviews.

Like one chick left a review. I mean, most of my reviews have been amazing. I don't know if you've looked on amazon i have yeah yeah like people are loving i'm like whoa but it's like you can't you gotta stay in the middle because you know it's like if you let that believe if you believe all the super nice ones and you gotta believe yeah right then when someone wrote like you know oh what a life. I don't know why she even wrote this book. You know, one star. And my dad, my dad looked and she'd given him one star to every book she'd ever read. Okay. So my dad wrote, well, considering that you gave one star to every book, maybe reading's not your thing.

That's a great response. He's like, I got your back, Ames. I was your back ames i was like i love my dad i love my dad it was like it's true she's giving one star to every book it's like oh she's just a hater malcontent she's a hater yeah you know oh my god you know i got some classic negative reviews on my book like one of one of them i shared i can't remember like the guy compared me to George Bush and it was like, it was like, it was the strangest. Like how so? Well, I think part of it was in a similar way to you.

Like I had a fairly privileged background. Right. And I'm honest about that in the book. Like we were middle class, but then my dad got a really good job and we kind of moved up and I went to private high school. I think people have less. They have less compassion for us. You're not as empathetic.

Of course. Of a protagonist. Like Joseph now, that horrible, horrible childhood. It's easier to like be. They're like, what's her problem? What's her problem? She had everything. Right.

And then you squander it. Right. And so there's, it's not a sympathetic situation. So it was, it was a response to that. Yeah. Oh yeah. oh yeah i get it but like i can't change how i grew up i'm just trying to be honest about what yeah no i definitely people have sort of gotten that too and it's like you know i told you i had coffee with joseph now so yeah straight pepper diet and one person had compared they're like if you want to read a really good rehab addiction memoir read straight pepper diet i was like all right joseph i'll have coffee with you and i won't hold that comment against you that someone said your book is better than mine and we went and we

swapped books and he just said don't read don't read the reviews because they said he said they're they're they're commenting like it's fiction but it's your life yeah so it feels it's so personal because they're basically taking they're shaking shaking your inventory. They're commenting on what they think about who you are as a person. Totally. And it's painful. Gnarly. Yeah. It's super gnarly. Yeah. Yeah. to talk a little bit about, you know, when I have people on that are in recovery, like I always want to hear what they have to say to somebody who might be listening, who is struggling, whether it's with relationships, sex or substances or some other behavior that is causing them pain as somebody who's been there and found their way out. Like, how do you speak to that person i would say be first of all be gentle with yourself you know um drop the shame because

that will just continue the use like you're doing the best you can with the tools that you have um i would say to be honest with other people and get help and go get a therapist or go to AA or go to SLAW or whatever, get into a support group because it's so important. You know, when we're in a behavior that feels pathological, we isolate and that just makes it so much worse. And for me, a huge part of the healing has been the fellowship and my friends and feeling connected and reaching out um i would say don't give up no matter how many times you slip like if you're alive you've still got a chance um that you can get through this that

you're not a bad person even a bad person even if you've done bad things. I feel like I need, you're waiting, you're looking at me with like some, like I need some, I'm looking at the Buddha, like some big, big wisdom. I wasn't waiting for you. You just look like you had something more to say. I mean, I think that's amazing advice. I think the hardest part for people is that first step. Like, well, how do I reach out? Or like, what exactly is,

what is the thing that I actually need to do first? And the other thing is don't wait till you feel like you're ready. You'll wait forever. Like if I waited till I was ready to write a book or if I, like I've been waiting to feel like I'm ready and want to go to the gym and that's been a year and a half. I know. Don't judge me. But it's like, you know, you take action and that changes the feeling. Mood follows action. That took me forever to figure out. And there's a line in the book, you know, that my dad told me and it took me 20 years to figure it out. He said, stability doesn't create discipline. Discipline creates stability.

I was waiting to feel okay before I could do these things. But it was doing these things that made me feel okay. So I would say, tell your feelings to shut the fuck up, your head to shut the fuck up, and you take the action and it will change things. And it's like, you can't get better. If I can get sober, anyone can get sober. Sorry. Like, come on. That story is gnarly. Yeah. Um, and, and one of the things you've written a lot about is, is the importance of structure in your life. Like, Oh God. Yeah. Well, now, I mean, I work from home. I, you know, I, I, I work from home work from home I have a three day a week editing job

I you know work for the fit and it's hard it's really hard um I have to force myself you know to like get out and do things like um I wanted to I was thinking about also what, you know, it's like, I guess the other thing too, it's like you, you're not, you can change. You can change. I really thought forever I was broken and I was stuck with that person who I was. And it's like, I'm not that person today. I'm a completely different person.

And it's like, I never thought that I could be the person who shows up and is inspiring to people and, you know, sweeps the floor, not the streets, but you know what I mean? Like it's. Yeah.

And when you're in that cycle and you're surrounded by people who are telling you you're a piece of shit and you're never going to change. Yeah. That's yeah. You're never going to change. Fuck what people tell you. Yeah. Out of it you're never going to change. Yeah, that's, yeah. You believe that you're never going to change. Of course, yeah. Fuck what people tell you. And you can never see your rage out of it. Yeah, fuck what people tell you.

You know, you can do it. And also the other thing too is like, you know, if you have an urge to use or drink or whatever or text that guy that's bad for you or whatever, it's like give yourself 20 minutes, take a bath, call someone, watch an episode of Ozark, jack off, whatever it is. Like do something and buy yourself 20 minutes. Call someone, take a drive, take a walk. Because the urge passes whether you pick up or not. That's really, it took me a long time to figure that out.

And it's like, but if you don't ever sort of wait through that feeling you don't realize that you can get through it it feels overwhelming and then the urge comes you're like i gotta do it i gotta do it you know yeah and you feel like you're gonna die if you don't do it that impulse and you don't understand that it's it's so true right but it will pass yeah and it's if you could just just get through that and realize and go oh you realize that the feeling doesn't control you it doesn't it won't kill you you don't have to obey it and that's where that freedom comes from you know you can you're like oh i i can change yeah and it's slow it's a slow process as you know yeah it takes a while to slow briety i I know, right? I hate that. All the annoying slogans.

But that you can rewire your brain slowly over time, you know, through action. You really can. And you can be happy. You can have a good life. And you don't have to be, you know, a prisoner to that crap. You know? And just also don't care what people in the room think. Like, if you eat it and just come back, it's not a competition.

I don't like that. Everyone's got their own stuff. Everyone's got their own baggage. Some people have like really severe mental illness. Like everyone has their own thing, you know? Yeah. I think that keeps a lot of people away. They come in and they get, they have a weird exchange with somebody and then they're like,

I'm done with that. Yeah. And then they're, then they're dead or they can't, you know, they can't weird exchange with somebody. And then they're like, I'm done with that. Yeah, of course. And then they're dead. Yeah. Or they can't get sober. Yeah. It's like, you know, find another meeting. Or it's like, you know, I mean, I just wrote a piece about this.

And this doctor, Howard Wetzman, said 50% of people who relapse will never go back to AA. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. Because either someone said something to AA. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. Because either someone said something to them or because of shame, not that they, yeah, that 50% gets hurt, but they will never even make a second try.

And it was like, you know, I have such a big dose of like, who gives a fuck about me? Like I was never like, I gotta be queen of the drunks. Like I was just like, I don't care.

Like this is my life and I don't care what these people think. And my social capital is not based on what people in AA think about me. And I was just like, I don't care. Like this is my life and I don't care what these people think. And my social capital is not based on what people in AA think about me. And I was just like, you know, I'm on my own trajectory. Well, that's how you get well, because you can't compare your ass. If you're trying to save face and look good, then you're working at cross purposes. Exactly. Exactly. Getting better.

Exactly. It's like, it's not a competition. No. You know, it's good talking to you too was super fun cool very cool so my fair junkie my fair junkie bookstores everywhere soon to be a super amazing television show somewhere that happens you should be talking about that i know it's like i feel bad like it i don't want to jinx it. Like, I'm going to get called, and they're like, don't mention that. I'm like, oh, sorry. It's at Barnes & Noble.

It's at Amazon. It's on IndieBound. It's at Kobo. It's at, you know, all those places. There's an audio book where you can hear my really manly voice and my bad impressions. That was great. Of course you're reading the book. You could have had somebody else read your read your read this

book i don't know some people have to audition to read their own book you know i had to kind of lobby to make it happen see yeah but i'm so glad that i did yeah it's important when it's a memoir i think you know and because you're a performer i mean it was ex-performer recovering performer recovering comic you're performing i know it mean, it was- Ex-performer, recovering performer, recovering comic. You're performing. I know, it never goes away. I can't kill that part. I know, even in shares.

Why should you? Oh God, but even in shares, I'm just like, oh, here we go. Like gotta, you know, it's like, just be honest. I mean, I've gotten much better about that. I used to just really like have to just like- Turn it up. Yeah, like, I gotta have a good set, you know? Yeah, but that's just another layer that's another of course right and now you know it's just like yeah i had the flu for two weeks and that'll break you down i just come into meetings so what's Text. More promotion.

You know, hopefully a series. Just, you know, writing. Writing more. Connecting to people more. Continuing to write about it. I want to write. I just want to continue to write. I mean, that's kind of my creativity kind of keeps me alive. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if that's my newest addiction, but it's like, that's what really sort of feeds me where I get in the flow and I feel connected. And I started meditating again. Good for you. I know. I hadn't, I did it and I felt so good that I stopped, which is so alcoholic, right?

Well, yeah, it's like like that's like relapsing when you have 30 days or a year right it's like i feel amazing i'm gonna stop i feel too happy i'm gonna stop doing it this is working and i stopped i it's so and then it's like human beings are idiots i know it's so weird same thing with the gym i was like i feel so great look at my tushy like and then like a break that was like yeah and then i never go back so it's like i've started meditating again so i feel more centered and it's like you know i'm just like kind of just seeing what comes my way you know yeah i just i'm happy i'm happy the book is i'm happy that i made my pain into something that can help people to me that is like

was my hope yeah well you achieve that it's a great book you're a great writer i can't wait to see uh what you do next and please continue write. I think it is helping a lot of people and, uh, and the book is a gift, you know, so if people are listening and they are struggling or they know someone who's struggling or they just want to have a better understanding of this pernicious disease, or maybe you just want to be entertained. Yeah. If you just want to laugh, I like a better about your life. You can check it out. And, uh, if you want to be entertained. Yeah, if you just want to laugh a lot. You want to feel better about your life. You can check it out. And if you want to know more about Amy,

you can go to her website, amydresner.com and you're at Amy Dresner, all of its internet, Twitter, all those places. Where do you live the most on social media? Probably Twitter. Instagram is like too many pictures of my cat. Everyone's like, stop. It's pictures of the book and the cat.

I like Twitter because I like to say funny things, tell funny stories. Cool. And are you doing any events or traveling or giving talks about the book or anything like that? If people are listening, they want to come and see you? Nothing right now that I can talk about. No. Okay. All right. But you can talk about no okay all right well you can go you can write to me i'll write back yeah you know she says that she replies to all oh god i hate you thanks you promised all right cool good talking to you amy thanks peace

all right i hope you guys enjoyed that. Please make a point of checking out Amy's book, my fair junkie. It is a torrid read and hit up the episode page for this episode at richroll.com for tons of links. So you can learn a little bit more about Amy and take your edification beyond the earbuds. If you would like to support my work, please subscribe to the Sean Apple podcast. That's the one thing you can do that is very untime consuming. It'll only take you like a second, but it actually helps me out a lot. It really aids in the show's visibility, extending reach and growing the audience, which in turn will make it easier for me to book the very best people for future shows for you guys. You can also share the show with your friends and on social media, leave a review on Apple podcasts on iTunes, subscribe to my

YouTube channel, youtube.com forward slash ritual. We did not video this, uh, episode because I recorded it quite a while ago and it was in between videographers. So this one unfortunately is not on YouTube, but going forward, we are, uh, we are taping essentially every interview that I'm doing, which is exciting. Uh, we also have a Patreon set up. Uh, if you want to contribute financially to my work, thank you to everybody who has done that. I'm going to be doing an AMA very soon. Ask me anything, a live video, ask me anything for my Patreon, uh, supporters, and I'll keep you posted on that on the Patreon page. How are those new year's resolutions going regarding your food and your diet and your plate? Have you guys checked out our meal planner yet? It is the most powerful, most cost-effective, most affordable tool that

packs this amazing punch to really keep you on track, to really dial up your nutritional regimen. to really dial up your nutritional regimen. Thousands of custom plant-based recipes at your fingertips. Amazing customer support, grocery lists, even grocery delivery in most U.S. metropolitan cities. It's an incredible product. We're so proud of it. I really think it over-delivers on every level. So to learn more about that, go to meals.richroll.com

or click on Meal Pl planner on the top menu on my website. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, help with the show notes. He helps configure the website, all kinds of stuff. Sean Patterson for help on graphics, theme music, as always, by Annalemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon peace plants Thank you.