The Rich Roll Podcast - Andrew Morgan On The True Cost Of Fast Fashion: The Ethical & Environmental Price of Clothing

Episode Date: July 4, 2016

When I was a kid, shopping for new clothes was a treat. A special, infrequent occasion. Why? because even inexpensive garments challenged our middle-class family budget. By comparison, the mega-conglomerate retailers of today — Target, H&M, Gap, fill in the blank — allow the average, penny-pinching consumer to fill a closet for a $100 or less. How and when did clothing become an essentially disposable product? What exactly is going on? The answers to these questions will shock you. Andrew Morgan is the young, talented filmmaker behind the beautiful and heartbreaking documentary The True Cost. Premiering at last year's Cannes Film Festival, it's a movie about the untold story of fashion. It's about the clothes we wear, the people who make them, and the impact the garment industry is having on the world we share. The film centers around the human rights and environmental implications of fast fashion — a term used to describe the increasingly rapid pace at which fashion houses push new trends at deflated prices made possible by global market ascendency and the comprehensive export of almost all manufacturing to the developing world. As a result, designer lines and trends once seasonal now move from factory to store shelves in a matter of mere weeks at a fraction of historical prices. It goes like this: prime the latent pump of consumer desire with hypnotic marketing campaigns featuring lithe models draped in the latest and greatist. Throw kerosene on the addictive must-have impulse with impossibly low prices. Obscure production transparency by shipping manufacturing to a far corner of the world. Then, before anyone discovers the product's troubling genesis and poor quality, light a match, sit back and watch the shopping frenzy ensue. Repeat to the tune of $3 trillion annually. There's only one problem — cheap is actually expensive. Because we're ignoring the true cost. Any accurate accounting of fast fashion must include the priceless expense of systemic and severe worker exploitation rife across the developing world. It must take into consideration the incalculable environmental damage caused by its very processes of manufacturing. And it must contemplate the mistreatment and slaughter of billions of animals. Without a doubt, fast fashion is an extremely expensive, unmitigated free market failure. But Andrew isn't interested in the good-guy-bad-guy narrative. He sees no purpose in shaming anyone nor pointing fingers. Andrew's wish for us is simple: Ask better questions. Demand better solutions. Do I really need this? Who made this and how? What exactly went into this getting from wherever to here? In other words, what is the true cost of our daily and often subconsciously or unconsciously motivated consumer choices? I was quite impacted by Andrew's stirring film; moved by this wise and thoughtful young man's commitment to positively impacting the world. As such, it is my honor to share his important message with you today. This is a conversation about the inextricable connectivity that unites us all. It's about our collective responsibility to be informed and to act. It's about conscious capitalism over mindless consumption. And it's about how every single day, every single one of us can make a tangible, positive difference in the world. Because in the words of Andrew, the greatest lie of all is that you can't contribute. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

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Thanks so much and on to the show. I mean, I think that we're all living at a really special So that's it. Thanks so much and on to the show. I mean, I think that we're all living at a really special moment in history. And I think we have the ability to look at the impact we're having on the world and we have the ability to be a part of the kind of world we want to have or to be a part of the destruction that we say we're against. That's filmmaker Andrew Morgan. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, everybody. Welcome. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome to The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, everybody. Welcome.

My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to The Rich Roll Podcast, the show where each week I sit down with all kinds of wildly inspiring and provocative personalities across a wide spectrum of topics that all sort of pivot on this theme of positive living, this theme of connecting with, accessing, unlocking, and ultimately fully expressing your best, most authentic self. So I have a really great show for you guys today. Very excited about it. And I thought I would kick it off with a little anecdote, a little story that ends with a question. So when I was young, I turned 50 this year, so I'm dating myself. But

when I was young, going shopping for new clothes was like a treat. It was special. It was infrequent. Maybe you did it back to school in the fall, or perhaps one time before summer starts. But today, it seems like this is something that goes on every weekend, 52 weeks out of the year. Go to any mall and it's almost like stores are giving this stuff away. You can get jeans for $10. You can get t-shirts for four bucks. You can literally fill a closet in certain stores for under $100. Everything is so incredibly cheap all of a sudden and you can't help but wonder, how is this possible? I mean, what exactly is going on here? So, today, we're going to unpack this issue, and I really think that it's going to blow your mind. Today's guest

is Andrew Morgan. He is the young filmmaker behind a beautiful and heartbreaking and, dare I say, important, in quote marks, documentary entitled The True Cost. It premiered at Cannes, and it's a film about clothing. It's about the clothes we wear. It's about the people who make them and the impact that this industry, the fashion industry, is having on our world. And I got a whole bunch of things, all kinds of things, important foundational things I want to say about Andrew and his movie before we get into the interview. But first. So today we're going to pull back the curtain on what is really the untold story of fashion. And we're going to do that through my conversation with Andrew and a discussion about his new movie, The True Cost, which zeroes in on the profound ramifications of our addiction to something called fast fashion.

Fast fashion is the sort of industry term used to describe the increasingly rapid pace at which fashion houses push new trends at deflated prices with one singular goal, the goal of getting consumers to buy as many garments as possible, as frequently as possible, to really prime the addiction pump of more, more, more, and the resulting low-quality, high-volume escalation of the manufacturing and distribution of incredibly inexpensive, cheaply made, and essentially disposable clothing. So simply put, the explosion of fast fashion and its intersection with the rise of the global economy and global supply chain has resulted in this $3 trillion industry that is nonetheless, and really quite grimly responsible for the severe exploitation of workers across the world. Human rights violations

galore, untold, profound, and perhaps in some cases, irreversible environmental calamities. And of course, it goes without saying the horrible abuse and slaughter of billions of animals. That being said, the true cost really isn't a good guy, bad guy expose narrative. Rather, it's a very well-considered and sensitized and human look at what is really going on. Not for the purpose of shaming others or pointing fingers, but really to help all of us ask ourselves better questions. Questions like, do I really need this? Who made this and how was it made? What exactly went into this thing getting from wherever to here?

In other words, what is the true cost of our daily, often subconsciously or unconsciously motivated consumer choices? So these are subjects I've delved into in the past on this show, most notably with men's fashionwear entrepreneur and Parsons School of Design Professor Joshua Katcher. We did that interview back in March of 2015, I think, RRP 135, 100 episodes ago. So, if you enjoyed that conversation, which I know you did because Joshua is amazing, then I think you'll really dig this. In any event,

Andrew is just an incredibly thoughtful, articulate, and passionate young guy. Amazingly, the father of four kids. I don't know how he's done that at his age. He's very young. And he's just really committed to doing great work that makes a difference. And how cool is that?

He made a beautifully photographed and quite stirring movie. I really suggest everybody check it out. It's streaming on Netflix, and you can find that in most global territories. Alternatively, it's available on iTunes, Amazon, and at truecostmovie.com anywhere in the world. So it was a real treat to go deep with Andrew on this subject, and I think it's a subject that we all need to be thinking about and talking about and acting on more intently. So with that said, should we talk to Andrew now? Let's talk to Andrew.

Thanks so much for coming up to the house, man. It's great to be here. Yeah, I really appreciate you making the journey up to the hinterlands and super excited to talk to you today. Really impacted by your movie and just as a little bit of kind of backdrop, I think it was a couple months ago that you had the screening at Industry of All Nations. I couldn't go, unfortunately. Sorry about that. I can't remember what I was doing, but I had some kind of conflict and Julie went and she came back from that evening just so moved and impacted by not only your movie but your presentation and there were some other folks there too right with Vandana Shiva there

and and uh maybe I don't know one or two other people from Patagonia there as well but right right right and she she was just out of her mind and she's like you gotta watch this movie this is so incredible you got to get Andrew on the podcast and so of course I immediately watched it and uh it really is quite uh a magnificent work so congrats on on that and I'm looking forward to getting into getting into it but I think it's fair to say just at the outset that although of course it is about fashion and in particular fast fashion it's really uh it's really a documentary about so much more than that it's about consumerism it's about uh you know the globalization of capitalism it's about marketing uh it's about uh you know how we behave as human beings it's about psychology uh it's about how we behave as human beings. It's about psychology. It's about human rights.

It's about the environment. Like you're tackling a lot. You bit off a lot in this movie, but you handled it masterfully and beautifully. And it's incredibly impactful. Thank you so much. That means a lot. Yeah. So let's unpack it a little bit.

Why don't you just sort of explain what the movie is about and we can kind of go from there. Yeah, well, the film is about the impact of clothing on both people and the planet. And I had never, you know, ever in my life really stopped to think about where my clothes came from. And I had this experience a couple years ago when I was getting coffee one morning and I looked down at the cover of the New York Times and there was this photograph of these two boys that were ironically similar in ages to my own two boys at home and these two boys were standing in front of this huge wall of missing person signs and I picked up the paper and read about this clothing factory collapse

just outside of Dhaka, Bangladesh and read that at the time of the collapse, it was making clothing for major Western brands, and it listed some of the brands. They were brands that I knew and had frequented. And the estimates started in the hundreds. It then crossed over 1,000 people that had lost their lives in this horrific incident. And what I remember standing there thinking about

that morning was, first, how is it possible that an industry this powerful and profitable could be doing business in a way that was leading to this kind of loss and lessening of life? And as I read in the article multiple times over, these incidents were not rare. And then on a really personal level, I just remember thinking, how is it possible I've never thought about where my clothes come from. And that just

kind of opened this door and asked some really profound questions that I had never asked before and led us into a journey that took us around the world, into the lives of people working in different parts of these supply chains and also really you know looking at the unmeasured impact to natural resources and the environment all stemming from something as simple as the clothes we wear right it's it's uh it's very interesting uh because clothes are something that we all need right so you can't just say well i'm not going to participate in this business whatsoever. We all have to put clothes on.

It's encouraged, yeah. And there are so many analogies to the food system. Like I couldn't help but think throughout the movie, like, oh, that's very similar with big food and the way big food operates, like a lot of parallels and overlap in that kind of Venn diagram because we all have to eat food as well. that kind of Venn diagram, because we all have to eat food as well. And the movie really forces us as not only audience members, but as consumers to think more deeply about the choices that we make and the impact, you know, throughout all the way down that supply chain that those decisions have on, you know, not just ourselves, but, you know, the world at large.

Yeah. And I think that was my experience making the film, was that it went from being a film about clothing to really a film about understanding my place in the world and the connection between my choices and people's lives or the well-being of this planet. And that sounds really grandiose, but I think at the heart of the film is this, we're really attacking a narrative that's been told and sold to us to see ourselves as first and foremost consumers. And the more I looked at the world and then, you know, we traveled and we're in all these, we, you know, saw all sorts of toxic, terrible things. But at the heart of it was the most dangerous thing really kept coming back to the story where people living, especially in the developed world, have been taught to see themselves

as just sort of bystanders, you know, as consumer. I mean, the word consumer is like my value is just to be someone who takes in stuff. And it sort of safely divorces me from the impact of those choices. And it's one of those things, and I hope people get this experience in the film. My experience making it was like, it's one of those things where when you pull back one layer of that story, it starts to erode. And what it opens up is a far more meaningful invitation to be a part of something bigger in the world. meaningful invitation to be a part of something bigger in the world. And that sounds huge when I'm just talking about clothing, but it, it, it, I think is one of the primary, um, gateways to

the world around us. Well, clothing speaks to identity in a really profound way. And, you know, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to be fashionable or express yourself through the clothing that you wear. I mean, that's a very human thing to do. It's very personal. It's very emotional. But this idea of this journey really that you went on, which kind of sounds like the narrative from the Matrix, it's like you start out as this battery, you know, where you're empowering, empowering this system to stepping outside of it and getting a broader perspective

on how it all functions and sort of the revelations that come with that are powerful. Well, and there is, I mean, as you say, one of the things that we were careful to do in the film is not to demonize fashion. You know, fashion is a creative art form. I mean, it's a, yeah, it's self-expression.

It's heritage and history and culture. And, um, it's just recently been swallowed up by a, a very, um, big business version of something that's intrinsically beautiful. Um, and I think that's, that's the part that I'm, I'm really focused on. And that's the part that's brought with it, you know, just a whole lot of unseen negative impacts. Well, I think it would be good to kind of break down this evolution of the fashion industry since 1960 because it's really exploded and morphed and changed in a way that has impacted not only the environment and the economy, but human rights in a palpable way.

Yeah, like all things in history, it's a combination of a lot of factors. But if you go back to 1960, we were still making, in this country, the United States, we were still making more than 97% of our clothing here in America. Fast forward to today, that number is less than 2%. So what you've seen- That's just like, hold on a second. Huge, huge.

Insane, 97 to 2%. It's really been the flagship of globalized production and globalization as a whole. And it has, that level of outsourcing has made way for it to become a deflationary product, which is one of the only things in the global marketplace that's gotten cheaper over time. And when I began to look at this,

I kind of began to ask those questions like, okay, but raw materials haven't gotten cheaper and transportation hasn't gotten by and large cheaper. And what you quickly begin to see is that human labor is a point in the process where you can squeeze and so is externalizing the polluting and environmental impact. So we give birth to this thing called fast fashion, which is just this acceleration of production, cheap, low-level production, and on our end of the spectrum, consumption. You know, we, as a world, consume more than 400% more clothing

than we did two decades ago. Yeah, that's crazy. And that's, I mean, you, you think about that and it's, you, you begin to ask, you know, the next set of questions, where does it go? You know, where, what happens when we don't hold, you know, all of those things kind of kept propelling the story forward. Yeah. And you follow all those threads, you know, throughout the movie, but it is insane. I mean, I'm a little bit older than you, but you know,

I remember as a kid, like if you were going to go get a new pair of sneakers or a shirt, it was like, it wasn't a big deal, but it was like, okay, like this is kind of an event. And now it's just, it just seems like everything's free. You know, I mean, not, I mean, in a, in a sliding scale kind of way, by comparison, it's incredible what you can get for very little money when you go to the mall. We tend to just do it reflexively. We don't think about it. There are very powerful systems set up to prevent us from really considering that because the marketing is so flashy and it's all about conveying this idea that you're going to step

into this aspirational lifestyle if you buy this product and to bring it back to the the analogy with with our food systems you know so much of our food systems are produced in the united states so in order to create that you know kind of wall to prevent us from seeing it we've had to enact regulatory actions by way of ag-gag laws to really prevent us from seeing it. But because through the globalization of capitalism, our clothes are made so far away that we don't really need the ag-gag laws because it's out of sight, out of mind.

We don't have to look about. Maybe in the back of our mind, we kind of know, yeah, this probably isn't right. This is just too cheap, but it's too tempting to not buy it. Well, that's really profound. And I think even when you look at, you know, we put into place really good things here in our country, like the Clean Water Act and some of these different initiatives that from a production standpoint made it that much easier to, as you say, have it be done in places where we don't have to look at the

impact. It just so happens that we're doing so much of it and it's growing at such a scale that it's beginning to take a burden. Planetarily, it's beginning to take a burden that's undeniable at this point. And it's opening up the space for a bigger conversation about human rights. But you're right, you have to go look for this stuff. And it was my experience that you, it wasn't just a search. It was like excavating. Like it took so, it's an unbelievable thing how separated,

how safely separated we can let ourselves be from where things actually come from. So 80 billion items of new clothes are produced a year. That's a 400% increase from like 20 years ago, right? That's right. And a lot of these clothes are actually manufactured so that they don't last like purposefully, right? Is that correct? Yeah, it is. I mean, the fast fashion business model is basically, you know, trying to get something that you had and held onto for a long time, uh, to transition and one really one lifetime or one generation into a commodity that

we view as a disposable good. Uh, and that's a phenomenal thing. So yes, number one, you're going to make it so cheap that it doesn't hit a certain thoughtfulness threshold when I'm purchasing it. And then also it doesn't last. And I began to look at my own wardrobe and ask these questions, and sure enough, I realized I was buying into that. Like I was purchasing a lot of cheap things that felt great at the checkout

that really were falling apart at the end of the season, the end of the year. It was almost like clockwork, they just, a few washes in, fundamentally begin to deteriorate. Right. And there's a couple sort of ramifications to that. The first of which is, I think you say that each, every person on average produces 82 pounds of textile waste per year, 82 pounds for every person. And that amounts to 11 million tons of textile waste. From the US alone..S. alone.

That's the U.S. alone. Yeah, and what's amazing about that is when you think about that waste, that waste is oftentimes toxic waste, and that's a whole other health side of the consideration. But actually when the trimmings are cut off of the finished pieces that are going to you in the factory, I would watch them be put in hazardous waste um so there's chemicals in the product you know by nature it's also we're making a lot of synthetic clothing so that's that's plastics

that's you know petroleum based and so a lot of that stuff does not break down like that this is not a case of you know throw it in a landfill and in a couple of decades this stuff will just biodegrade it's quite the opposite to that and those dyes that material um is is just having a profound impact and the the really dark irony to that is a lot of this waste comes from the production side so it's in these developing countries so i spent time walking through landfills and countries all over the world where clothing waste stretches out as far as the eye can see. Some consumer, mostly production,

like the excess cutaways. And that, yeah, that just has a profound uncounted cost. Yeah, you have these scenes in the movie where there are literally just mountains of textile waste. They're like giant hills of just black, like wasting away toxic materials. Was that mostly in Bangladesh? That was in Bangladesh.

That was also in India. And that was also in Cambodia. Right. And you see the pollution going into the Ganges in that one town where they're known for their leather production, right? Like one of the number one places in the world for... Yeah, in Kampor, India.

Exactly. And that's a serious issue where these major, major, major companies, multinational brands who are hugely funded and they have the research they're very they're very aware and they're sourcing from communities and pockets of the world that just do that physically do not have the technological um not just know-how but you know equipment to deal with these very toxic production processes and safe ways and so you're seeing you know open waste you know in that case that you mentioned from leather tanning factories pour into a river that supports life for, you know, countless people all through India. And juxtaposed against, you know, you have all these, this footage from all these different commercials, but there's that one for Joseph A. Banks where the woman is sort of satirically, you know, making the point that these suits are so cheap, she's like wiping her countertop with,

wiping up a mess and then just, you know, disposing of it, you know, a whole suit, like a business suit into the garbage. You know, like this idea, this marketing idea is fueling this concept that we're constantly needing to renew our wardrobe. And I think there's, I can't remember who it was in the movie, but there was one woman

from the fashion industry who said, you know, it used to be two seasons a year. Now it's 52 seasons. Yeah. I mean, you walk into one of these, these major fast fashion, um, you know, stores and you will see a new piece of a new, a whole new set of clothes every single week. And in some cases now every single day, um, I was literally just in Europe a few days ago and I went into a store the day after I had been in it and there was a whole new story. It's like the pace is amazing. And what are they doing with everything that doesn't sell? That's a huge question and there's been, New York Times ran an incredible story a few years ago about clothing out back of one of these major retailers being cut up, like actually finding shredded bags of

these clothes that weren't going out the front door. That's a huge question that has yet to be really answered. So we don't even know, basically. No, and there's a lot of stories of, these are not news stories of piles of clothing being burned, even at the factory level. This goes back a long way, even luxury products, handbags. Last year's models are just being incinerated.

I mean, it's a fundamental question that you'll never unask once you ask it when you walk into any common good store you say what happened to what happened to last month's or what happened to last week's like did it all perfectly sell out you know so what when when i know that like the kind of inception point for the movie was when you you know piece in the New York Times about this tragedy. When did you know that there was a movie here, that you were going to actually do something? Very quickly. I mean, this was a pretty special process.

I brought that article back to my producer that morning. We had just finished our previous film that week. What was your previous film? It was actually the first documentary I ever did. I lost my dad in a tragic, uh, cycling accident and I was sort of thrust into this world of loss and, uh, with no guide. And I, I, I just didn't know how to navigate it. So what I ended up doing was making a film where I basically went and spent time with people all over the country who had experienced some form of loss. And, and, um, yeah, it w it was a life-changing process. And, and honestly,

it's funny you asked me that because I think honestly, the process of making that film sort of had both my producer and I in a very open, very sensitive place that I think is part of why that article jumped out at me. I think I was just in that spot. Yeah. Um, so we, we had the conversation about that article that day. We followed the Rana Plaza factory collapse story in the news cycle for the next couple of days. And by the end of the week, um, we knew it was a film that we were going to make. We couldn't believe this story hadn't been told and we didn't know how we were going to do it but i i think it was just within days that it was pretty clear and so how long before you jumped on a plane and

actually went to bangladesh well we started i picked up a kickstarter right we did i and i and i the first thing i did in in that first week was i picked up the phone and i started calling people that worked in different parts of the fashion industry all over the world and introduced myself and just said you know i'm following know, I'm following the story. Everyone was following the story that week. And I said, I'm a filmmaker and I'm really interested in telling the story. Can you give me some insight from your perspective? And so I talked to, you know, everywhere from activists to, you know, scientists. Like I just really, I built some relationships, some of which actually are people that are, ended up being featured in the film and even came on as producers. And I started by asking if I could come speak with them

and interview them. And we cut a little short video together, which became the Kickstarter. And more than 900 people, mostly strangers all over the world, contributed to that Kickstarter campaign. And that allowed us to buy our tickets to Bangladesh and start and we we continued to you know it was one of those projects where we would we would get enough for the next trip and the next trip but that was that was the beginning right very cool um and so uh from there how does it I mean is it did you have a global sense of the arc of the movie or were you just sort of doing your investigative journal like you go to bangladesh you meet a guy and you're like oh you got to talk to this guy now

you got to how did it kind of unfold it was it was yeah it was kind of it was twofold it was on one sense i knew right away that i wanted this to be a global story like when i when i started looking into this i felt like it was really very very important that this not be a bangladesh film because if it was a bangladesh film it could be about those people over there. And here we are over here. I instantly thought we need to shoot in countries all over the world to really not only capture the story fairly, but also to make it a film where you lose track of where you are at some point. It just becomes about our story.

And so I had that going in. What I didn't have going in was this sense of unraveling ideas. And sometimes it was like, you need to talk to this person over there. But more than that, it was someone would uncover a truth or a story or something that just sort of caught us off guard and it begged the next question.

And so we would go ask that question. So the film begins to be this kind of collage of people and places and ideas. And that unfolding nature was really my education. Like it was really me not knowing anything about economics, me not understanding environmental. So that just kind of unfolded in a really profound way that in a lot of ways, my experience making the film really more than anything else I've done was what I was trying to put into the experience

for the viewer. Because I had this experience that was like very, very unlike anything I'd done before where in the same weeks, I would be going back and forth between some of the most beautiful uh fashion runways at some of the you know gorgeous cities I would be in these circles of you know very powerful wealthy people and then that same week I'd be in a slum or I'd be and that sort of that sense of whiplash that sense of emotional that kind of began to form what became the yeah that that juxtaposition, I really think, you know, hammers home how powerful this is and the complete disconnect between these two worlds

that are inextricably linked, right? To see this beautiful footage of these, you know, gorgeous models on the runway and the fabulousness of it all slammed up against, you know, what that, you know, toxic waste dump looks like or, you know, the runoff into the Ganges or whatever. That's the reality of what creates the other.

And to have those slammed up against each other in the way that you did is powerful. And I think it needs to be said, your cinematography is beautiful. Even when you're in the most desperate conditions, the film work is really well thank you. Well done. Yeah. Thanks.

So, so. Well, and what, and honestly, just to that point, Rich, like one of the interesting things was that this was a film that you,

we didn't have to really heighten anything. And so everything from the cinematography, like all the choices that we made artistically, like when you say putting those two images side by side, it's like, that's all it took. Like this isn't like Sarah McLachlan's not singing a sad song with slow motion it just we're just saying look at these two parts of something that make this whole

well i couldn't help but think that there was a lot of conscious thought put into the tone. Like, the tone is very important of this movie, because it could very easily venture into this big guilt trip that's going to make everyone who watches it feel bad. Or it could be, you know, a preachy movie, you know, that would anger people. Certainly, I think it, you know, it's aided by the fact that you insert your story into it. Like, the movie begins with you trying to answer this question for yourself, right? But it's not like a Michael Moore movie where you're the focus of the attention. Like you let these subjects and the people that you're speaking to let that story unfold for you. But it's very clear that this movie is not about making you feel bad.

It's very clear that this movie is not about making you feel bad. It's inciting. It's hopefully inciting you to think more deeply and to perhaps make more conscious choices, but not to guilt you into making you feel like you're a bad human being. So what was the process of coming up with walking that tightrope and crafting that balance? Well, I think for me, it's been, it's been a process of trying to understand where we are at this moment in history. And I think where I believe a lot of people are is more aware of some of the profound issues

facing humanity than at most other points in our history, actually. I think a lot of people are beginning to be very aware of some huge challenges and unfinished work and systemic injustices that still are rooted in our world. So I don't think you have to hit people over the head with something's wrong. I think what people are looking for is an invitation to be a part of a more meaningful life in a more beautiful, just world. And I think I, from the beginning, just world. And I think I, from the beginning, this issue of transitioning out of just being a bystander to being a participant to with, you know, in my relationship with my wife,

my children, like beginning to think about the things that were coming into our home in a more thoughtful way, it was enriching my life. Like it was actually making, it was connecting these things that I care about on a big picture level over here to some very immediate choices I was making. And that's what I wanted for other people. And I think that's the moment that we're in. It's not like we're at the end of awareness because there's a lot more awareness needed. But I think we're at a moment where we have the tools and the ability to make some profound change to the world around us. And a lot of people just need an invitation.

So if someone watches the film and they walk away feeling excited, maybe angry, but excited of just how much is at stake and how much their little life gets to be a part of this bigger thing, to me, that's what i'm after i think we are at a cultural tipping point with that kind of awareness and consciousness and i think that's being driven by you know people of your generation you're a card-carrying millennial right and i think that uh you know people of your age and and you know a little bit younger even you're 29 right that's right. Yeah, so people in their 20s are, and I think this is being driven by the internet age, are demanding transparency in their consumer goods and in the rest of their life.

It's just not acceptable. Because the internet fuels transparency, because everything has to be transparent that's online, has to be transparent that's online. The idea that a company would not be transparent in their sort of chain of processes is becoming quickly and for the betterment of society, like an intolerable idea, right? We want to know. And I've often said, we have labels on our food that tell us the nutrients, is it organic, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. I feel like every consumer goods product should have some kind of similar label that, that tells you, you know, where it was produced, how it was produced, you know, the materials that were used in it, is it fair trade, you know, what are the toxins in it? And what is the carbon, you know, footprint of that product?

Like, I feel like that should be something that every product should have. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Certainly our clothes. Absolutely. And, and I think that's the sort of common sense nature that a lot of people are, are waking up to. And I think, you know, more, more broadly, the idea of the true cost is really that, uh, we're, we're continuing to externalize all the true impacts and costs of, of making the goods and services that we enjoy every day. So that's sort of on a one-way collision course. That's just inevitably problematic, you know, that a company could be producing something and using 10 times the water.

They could be, you know, polluting 10 times more than another. And the only thing we're counting in this system right now is profit. So as long as there's continued quarter on quarter growth, all of those other things, impacts to human rights, labor, and all of the scores of systems that our planet has carried out at great resilience up until this point that are being threatened, aren't factored into that equation.

They're not in the boardroom, they're not at the table, they're not getting counted. And I think there's just a lot of people who maybe building on the shoulders of the previous generation and work that has come before us are just standing up to say, I think it's time that we could invent a better system.

And I think there's a growing feeling of anti-inevitability. Like, why is it that so much of the way we were taught was that we've come through all these ups and downs in human history, and then we've arrived at this point where everyone, and you only have to turn on your TV or open a laptop or get a ticket and fly somewhere to realize that's not true,

that the world's still fundamentally in need of innovation and care and cultivation and we're just getting started you know and that that's thrilling to me right and meanwhile if you go to the website of any of these big garment companies i'm sure there's policies you know they'll have a section where it tells you that everything they do is above board and all of this right like oh we make sure that our workers are cared for and blah blah blah but it's just propaganda for the most part, right? Huge propaganda and huge amounts of marketing

and a huge amount of the CSR effort has been an effort on behalf of the companies to police themselves. What is CSR? Corporate Social Responsibility. So it's really a lot of times folded into a marketing department and it stems from some of the Nike sweatshop stuff. when this stuff started to get documented there was a push for regulation

which just means we're playing a competitive game and there have to be rules uh and their push away from that was to say no no the the players on the field can write their own rules like we can police ourselves we don't need outside oversight because we're going to do our own and time after time again it just you know how is that going to possibly work it's never going to work right self-policing you know when profit is the motive and there are 52 you know seasons in this fashion year it's just never going to happen right i think one of the most profound for me uh sort of moments in the movie is when you have this har-Stanford economist who basically says, look, we are a culture

in which we've been taught to think and speak critically about all of our systems, all our systems of government, etc. And through that dialogue to hopefully craft better versions of what preceded them. But the one thing that we're not allowed to criticize

is our economy, our capitalist economy. If you one thing that we're not allowed to criticize is our economy, our capitalist economy. If you do that, you're ostracized. That's anathema, right? And so who's to say that this capitalist system, as we continue to globalize, doesn't need a revision, especially when we're outsourcing our modes of manufacturing to these underdeveloped countries where there's no regulation, no oversight, no ecological stopgaps on what's occurring, we have a responsibility to step in as a superpower and make sure that not only these workers

are treated fairly and given a fair living wage, but that we're not polluting our planet. Like our planet doesn't get a seat at the table to speak up and say, stop doing this to me. And the UN is like ineffectual at this. It's like we almost need this global organization policing effort because as we continue to globalize and stuff is happening outside our borders, how are we supposed to regulate that in a way that is, that is humane? Yeah,

no, I think there's a, I think there's so much truth in that. And I think one of the problems we're in that like stopgap moment where we're operating in a globalized economy, but we're still operating by localized sense of governance and rules. And there's a lot of gaps in that system. You know what I'm saying?

Like it's not a, we're not individual countries anymore. governance and rules. And there's a lot of gaps in that system. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not a, we're not individual countries anymore. We really are tied together in so many economic ways. And the lack of oversight and the lack of questioning that is profound. And part of where that comes from is if you're, you mentioned the word superpower, if you're the power typically and not the oppressor, then the system typically looks a little better than it is from your vantage point. So when we're only looking at some of these issues from a very privileged, successful,

the system worked here. Like, it worked. I mean, from World War II on, like, we really accumulated a vast amount of wealth. There's just another side to that coin, though. And I think truly the life-changing experience of making this film, and this sounds so simple, but it was for me getting out of my context to go look at the world through the lens of people who are on the under half.

And it's not to have some faint-hearted feel-good pity. It's more to say, are we organizing our world in the way that gives most people the best shot at some opportunity, at a sense of, or are we really entrenching systems of exploitation? And I think for too long, the fashion industry has paraded as a champion of empowerment and really has further entrenched these systems. Yeah, I want to drill down on that a little bit and get into the human rights aspect of it, because

the predominant argument is that these people, whether they're in Bangladesh or India or Malaysia or Cambodia, these people, if not for what we're providing them through our factory work, would have a lesser life. Like that they would have no option. We're providing them an option, and by doing that, we are helping to raise the floor on their experience. But there's a lot of problems with that argument. Well, that is a very good description of the story that I certainly grew up in, and I think a lot of problems with that argument. Well, that is a very good description of the story

that I certainly grew up in, and I think a lot of people listening, certainly, in America grew up hearing it was, and it kind of, you know, it offsets any sort of guilt. Like whenever you ask that question as a kid, or, you know, well, where is this coming from? Or is this making life better? Or is this, that was always, you know,

as ugly as it might be, you know, buildings might be falling down, that was always, you know, as ugly as it might be, you know, buildings might be falling down, people might being, you know, it's leading ultimately to a better place for these people. And the alternative would be they'd be dying in starvation. And I think that's a really, number one, I mean, you don't have to be too much of a thinking person to feel like that just sounds super convenient, first of all. That sounds a little bit too black and white.

person to feel like that just sounds super convenient, first of all. That sounds a little bit too black and white. But also, why, not only is that not happening in case after case after case, not only is that proving to not follow through. The trickle down from we're just going to produce enough and create enough wealth at the top that it's going to, in the production sense, come down to these people, isn't bearing out. When these people are able to stand up in any way and organize to fight back for better wages, what's happening is production will shift away from their country to an even lower, you know, ranking rung on the line. The phrase, the race to the bottom. There's always another country. Yeah. And that's really, you know, in the film, you see Bangladesh. Bangladesh was a response to

China. China beginning to get some form of, you know, being able to ask for something a little bit more basic and humane from a wage perspective. Because, again, this is, you know, the most labor-dependent industry on Earth. So your people part of this equation on the labor force is astronomical. We still don't have machines making most of our clothes. People actually make the things that we wear. And those people are paid poverty wages.

They're paid less than it costs to live in some of the poorest slums in these communities. And you have that scene with the one woman, is her name Seema? Seema. Seema, right? Is she the one, she was part, she was trying to do some labor organizing, or was that a different, it was her, right? Is she the one? She was trying to do some labor organizing,

or was that a different? It was her, right? Yeah, yeah. And the result of, you know, they were trying to kind of organize around this idea of getting a fair living wage and brought it to the management, and the result of that was physical beatings

of these people, right? It's horrific. And yeah, Shima um uh union in her factory which is yeah facing huge retaliation union in the the loosest definition of the word right because it's completely powerless and ineffectual absolutely and and you see that all across the world we were in um you know in nam pen cambodia you see in the film where workers stood up uh and actually went on strike you know we're out in the streets asking for, I think like a dollar increase, you know, just this negligible increase in a wage. And the police were brought in and started open firing live rounds. And I went to a

funeral of a garment worker that was beaten to death in those riots by simply standing up to ask for a wage. So I think that's one of the, to me, so to your earlier question, first of all, are they gonna die of starvation or are we gonna exploit them in this work? One of the first questions that has to be asked to me is why are those the only two options? You know, why in an industry that's in the trillions

where profit margins can be astronomically large, why are we not organizing that supply chain system to just care for the most fundamental basic human needs? That's un-American, Andrew. Come on, it's anti-capitalist. Who's gonna do that? I mean, yeah, the scene in the movie at the funeral with that man kind of breaking down

is just, it's so heart-wrenching. And the scene of the riot in Cambodia is off the chart. I mean, were you present for that? I was present. Some of that footage looked like it was archival. Yeah, it was. I was present for the second round of protests, which is when that funeral took place. And there was a lot that that sparked. But I was not there when they were shooting. We had a really brave journalist actually who was there that shot that stuff.

And it's really powerful to see because I think my experience again was it's one thing to know about these issues. And I think so many times I'm guilty of being a person who can sort of understand on paper these concepts. And it's a life-changing difference to be in these situations and to be looking these people in the eye and to realize this is their life. You know, these are mothers and fathers. These are families. These are communities. These are people. Just that, they're people. They're people. And they're

not just cogs in a machine. And I think that's jarring. I mean, that's really jarring stuff to experience because yeah, in a sense to what you're saying, that's a natural, inevitable part of capitalism. So grow up, get used to it, get over it. But it's like, wait, hold on a second. How is that? Maybe I'm just not old enough to accept that that's okay.

Right. The food industry analog to this issue uh there's a book called meatonomics by a guy called david simon i had him on the podcast and he basically breaks down the economics of how the meat and dairy industry works and if you strip away you know all the regulations and the farm bill and all of that that that a Big Mac would actually cost like $7. Like that's the true cost, you know, the true cost of that product. So if we, you know, bringing it back to your, you know, subject matter, if we were to imagine there's some kind of, you know, global organization that could provide valid oversight and we could ensure

that these people have, you know, a good living wage, safe working conditions, you know, that we could put a these people have uh you know a good living wage safe working conditions you know that we could put a cap on the toxic weight like all if we could solve all of those problems what i'm sure that the garment industry will tell you well then our items are going to be you know astronomically expensive and our profit margins will be cut down to zero and we're just we can't do it or we're just going to pull out. But what would that shirt at H&M suddenly cost? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think one of the exciting things in the film

is we follow some people who are proving that this can be done in a way that is truly caring for all the hearts and hands that interact with these pieces along the way and still gets to market at a reasonable price. And you mentioned our shared know, our, our, our shared friends at the screening, there's a growing number of companies all over the world that are building business models that, that walk that line that say, you know what, we're going to,

it's going to cost a little bit more, but, but oftentimes not that much more. And, and the transition and, and the transition that I've, I've been in the midst of is the, you know, there's a lot of levers of power here. But at the end of the day, if this begins to be an issue that more people buying clothes care about, you know, Stella McCartney has a great line in the film where she says, if you don't like it, don't buy into it. If more people just begin to say, you know what, I'm not okay with that. I actually want to know where my stuff. I want to have some and I'm willing to pay just a little bit more. The exchange that we'll get is it will be better made clothing, and we'll actually be able to hold on to it for a longer time.

There is nothing sustainable about this model of fast fashion, and I'm not out to make that model make sense. I'm out to prove that that model will never make sense, but what could make sense is investing in a wardrobe that we actually love, paying a little bit more for things that we're actually going to hold on to and wear that actually benefit those people on the other end of the spectrum. Yeah, that's a great point and beautifully said. I think it has to be from the top down and the bottom up. So at the top, we need government intervention, and we need regulation, and we need global oversight, and all that sort of stuff.

But at a very fundamental bottom level, it's about each and every consumer making better choices. And I think that there is, back to the tipping point issue, there is a tipping point with this. Companies that began with Tom's shoes of looking at this idea of conscious capitalism in a way that you can create great products and be profitable and do it in a way that is gentler on the planet and more conscious with respect to, you know, the chain of labor that produced it. And it does feel good to patronize those companies. I think at the same time, you have to be more active as a consumer in exploring, you know, there's a lot of companies that are jumping on this bandwagon and giving lip service to this idea, but they're not actually practicing it,

right? So, you know, industry of all nations where you did your screening, you know, our mutual friend Juan and his brother have created this really cool clothing line where they're actually supporting these indigenous communities. They're not using any toxic dyes. Everything is natural. And they're completely transparent about, you know, who these people are. And you, you feel when you buy their, I'm wearing one of their shirts right now, like you feel connected to those communities. Cause I know, like I know one and I know that that money actually is going towards them. And so yeah,

their clothes are more expensive, but they're going to last longer. And when I buy one, I'm just buying one and like, this is my shirt that I'm getting from them. And it feels good. and like this is my shirt that I'm getting from them and it feels good so I think you know there is this idea that you have to live this deprivation lifestyle if you're going to live more sustainably or perhaps a little bit more minimally you know with respect to your food choices or whatever consumer choices that you're making but I've actually found it to be quite the opposite absolutely and I and I love I love how you that, and I love that sense that that top down, bottom up, that's what we need in the world, and that's what we can all practice in our own lives too.

Like it can be both. So I can be someone who, you know, I can push and advocate for things, you know, system-wide change at the top, but then also, it keeps me fueled to keep doing that by making choices that support those beliefs at the bottom. And that's a powerful combination to me in our lives. Like, and it's new to me, but to say, I'm going to push, you know, with all my energy for change at the top.

And I'm also going to, on the very smallest, you know, choices in my life for my kids, for our family, we're going to be making choices that line up. It is, it's beautiful to hear you say that about the shirt. It's a gateway. It's a way of inviting me into seeing the world in a more clear way. And you put on a shirt and you think about it and it just does something. It just matters. And it moves me out of just an invisible consumer into a partner. You know, Juan's a partner. He's does something. It just matters. And it moves me out of just an invisible consumer into a partner. Juan's a partner. He's making something. He's helping me live a more meaningful

just by being, and he's doing the hard work and I'm helping buy into that. Right. It's also empowering too, because one of the things I always say is that it's very easy for us as citizen consumers, quote unquote consumers, to feel disenfranchised and like we can't make a difference. And I think I heard you saying it in some other interview, you know, you watch An Inconvenient Truth and you're just left with like, well, I don't even, you know, like, what am I supposed to do?

Like, it's so overwhelming. Like, I can't possibly make a difference in this issue. But when you drill down to very specific actions, like, you know possibly make a difference in this issue. But when you drill down to very specific actions, like, you know, I'm going to choose this shirt and not this shirt, and I'm just going to buy one, that's a powerful act. And that act has ramifications. And it's empowering to you, you know, as the consumer to do that, and then feel like you're part of something in a very real, you know, fundamental way. And it's also removing dissonance from your life because you may say like, I support these ideas, but then when your

actions are at odds with that, even on an unconscious level, because you're not thinking about it, I think that creates like residue that doesn't feel good, right? And the more you can bridge that gap and create alignment there like you just feel better that's so powerful because you all is so powerful because you always ask the question well what will my one little choice do like will it really affect but you're kind of turning that over and saying what would it maybe do for your life like what would yes the system might get a bump but how much more are you going to begin to lean into that's a that's a power that's a really powerful change and i think if there's anything that's but how much more are you going to begin to lean into?

That's a really powerful change. And I think if there's any trick being pulled, certainly on my generation right now, is a very passive invitation to care about issues on a macro level and ignore their impacts in our day-to-day life. And it's a very business-driven set of storytelling that says, yes, yes, yes, care. Create an identity around caring, but don't go so far as to actually adjust your choices to line up to that belief. And to me,

when you line those two things up, there is something ignites. Something really powerful happens. Cool. I want to talk about cotton. Great. Cotton is like, this was news to me. Of course, I know like know like oh yeah lots of clothes are made out of cotton but actually you know cotton is really at the center of you know so much of the garment industry i think i've written it down like half half of the total fiber used for clothing comes from cotton right and right now 90 of that cotton is genetically engineered bt cotton and you have a whole sort of segment and kind of primary person in the movie

who's an organic cotton farmer in Texas, and we kind of hear a little bit about her story, and that kind of segues the narrative a little bit into this world of GMOs and the health implications and all of that, which is treacherous, controversial territory, right? I feel like you could have easily made this movie without kind of going there.

Yeah, I could have, I know exactly what you're saying, but at the same time, it is such a dauntingly large part of the global fashion story, and ironically, and of interest to me, it people who are are some of the lowest um you know some of the poorest workers in the supply chain are are farmers both both here in this country and hugely around the world we were you know with several um parts of the story in india with cotton farmers there um and same thing in texas with um the the woman that you mentioned and yeah it is i mean i think to me the with the woman that you mentioned. And yeah,

it is. I mean, I think to me, the idea that I was trying to open up was just this thought for people that wherever you fall on this stuff, a lot of people are taking a greater amount of energy to think about organic things going into their bodies. And they're starting to care about those chemicals, those pesticides. They're starting to realize that has a real impact. Let's just put aside for a second the communities in which it's grown, but it's actually having an impact on my health. And yet we wrap ourselves in these pieces of fabric that are some of the most chemically intensive, not just in the dyeing manufacturing process, which is also an issue,

but to your point, in the cotton fields. I mean, we're talking about huge levels of, of chemicals. And, and that to me was sort of an aha moment. It was like, wow, I, I think about the food all the time. It's really, you know, it's easy to talk about an organic apple, but I sleep on cotton sheets and I, you know, all throughout my day, I'm interacting with this thing. And then on top of that. And skin being your largest organ. It's the largest organ in your body. And I think if there's any area that science is going to excel, I mean, I think this stuff is just going to work. I think we're going to be amazed at what's coming into our skin through our fabric.

There's been remarkably little work done on what's coming in from from the clothing aspect yeah it's a complete blind spot uh and of course this is anecdotal but you know this this woman this texas farmer is talking about how i mean she's sitting on i don't know how many thousands like she had a huge farm right like three million acres or something like that huge um her husband passed away from a brain tumor at age 47 or he lived to 50 he was he contracted at age 47 and she tells this heart-wrenching story of of going to lubbock which is basically the nearest town to where she is right to get treatment for him and there's a like a whole sort of center there around uh cancer and the doctors there are saying, yeah, we're treating this all the time.

This is the most cotton intensive part of the nation, right? And so you're led to draw this conclusion of this relationship between the BT cotton and perhaps, there's so much pesticide that comes with that that it's beyond just the genetic engineering of the corn itself. It's all the pesticide that go with it and the health implications on these farmers. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly the way I wanted to position it. You know, however you want to think about the genetically altered organism, you know, let's put that aside and let's just look at the amount of chemicals. And it's,

and it's just astronomical. And when you think about the farmers, we think about, you know, in India, we think a lot about the green revolution and this whole GMO, you know, thing that was pushed. And we don't think about cotton, but cotton's a huge, huge, huge part of that story. And I spent time in all different parts of the country witnessing farmers who had had no training on how to apply these chemicals and you're just seeing the stuff, you see in the film, being sprayed open,

no mask, running into waterways. I mean, I'm not even having to go look for, it's just, it's everywhere. And then you're talking to local doctors, you're talking about disease, you're talking about all these issues that have just been profoundly unasked questions. And, and at the other end of it, that, that they are being marketed by the largest seed company in the world with a base here in our country.

To me, you know, it asks these profoundly moral questions. You know, this stuff was introduced into the market in India. It had a spike. It raised yields. It did what it promised. And then it flattened out and then it went down. And so you saw this huge backlash. I mean, these people are living on zero margin. And here they are taking in all these expensive inputs to get this higher yield. And then when it begins to fail, what it was going to do, you see just tragic implications. Yeah, not the least of which is indentured servitude to Monsanto. And what you kind of demonstrate in the movie is how that contributes to suicide rates in India, right?

Like all these farmers are committing suicide. Like I think you said one every 30 seconds. Yeah, more than 250,000. That number keeps going up in the last 15 years. I mean, it's, it's the largest recorded wave of suicides in history coming out of this one area where they're, they are farmers, that this is what they're growing. And they, the manner they kill themselves is very specific. They, they drink a bottle of the pesticide and the roundup or yeah, the, the, that they, yeah, the stuff that they spray on it. is very specific. They drink a bottle of the pesticide. The Roundup? Yeah, the stuff that they spray on it.

And what leads to this? So the promise is increased yields and increased pestilent resistance, right? So it flattens out. And then what? They're still forced to, they still have to buy their seeds from Monsanto. Where does it all go? Where does it fail for the farmer? Well, I mean, where it fails for the first part

is just on the model being introduced. These people are not used to buying seeds, and they're not, certainly if they're buying seeds, they're not used to buying seeds at that level. Monsanto comes in because they've altered something in the gene, they own the seed, people are familiar with that. So these folks, these know, they own the seed. People are familiar with that. So,

these folks, these farmers have to buy the seeds every single year, and they are astronomically more expensive than what they've had to, you know, buy before. And you can't, everyone knows with Monsanto, you can't hold seeds aside. You can't do the thing that the earth provided the poorest people as the most fundamental, you know, protection of what it means to be a human being. Farming is a very interesting way in which the poorest of the poor get a chance to eat and to work. It's a very interesting thing. And it's taken that model and it's introduced a very Western capitalist business exchange where these people take on huge amounts of debt to get these inputs. And when the yields don't come back to be what they're advertised to be, there's catastrophic impacts. Not to mention, as I said, the huge, huge questions about this waste and these chemical

offshoots and all of these things that are affecting these communities. communities. Do you have data on the environmental footprint of all of this? I mean, I think you say in the movie that it's second only to the oil industry in terms of the sort of toxic byproduct of this business, but did you get into the data of it at all? We did. I mean, there's a lot of different ways to break those numbers down. From a polluting freshwater standpoint, I think it's number one or number two. I mean, from a carbon emission standpoint, it's absolutely huge, partly because of the transportation costs,

but also partly because of just the crude manufacturing process. transportation costs, but also partly because of just the crude manufacturing process. I mean, you sort of, you sort of go down the list of every measure of both natural resources and environmental impact and, and however you factor it, this, this ranks really, really, really, really, really high, which is, which is interesting because it is still one of those issues and one of those industries that doesn't show up when most people think about climate change or pollution or resource scarcity. You know, in Paris, there wasn't a big conversation about clothing. There wasn't, it just, it somehow kind of sits just under the radar. It's very similar to Cowspiracy in that regard. You know, I think that documentary did a great

job of, you know, very similarly, you know, pulling the covers on, You know, I think that documentary did a great job of, of, you know, very similarly, you know, pulling the covers on, on, you know, the animal agriculture business and revealing certain truths that we never really thought about. Right. And, and you're kind of doing the same tonally, your movie is very different, but I'm interested in, you know, this journey of really pulling covers on what is essentially, what is it, like a $3 trillion a year business. What, you know, what has the reception been in the fashion industry? It's been, I mean, it's been amazing. I think, you know, for an independently produced film, the response and, you know, it's been bigger and more impactful and more meaningful than than any of us expected truthfully um we started uh about a year ago we took the film to can and we took it

um from there to it was interesting it got noticed by some people in the fashion industry who became sort of champions for it so we had some very odd allies we had some people well it's it's super interesting when i was kind of reading some of the press, like, you know, there's pictures of you with the Fabulosi, you know. I mean, early on, is it Lily Firth? What's her name? Livia Firth. Livia Firth came on board, right?

Was she a producer on the movie with you? She was, yeah. Right. So, you know, she's an advocate in this, you know, in this sphere, but also happens to be married to, you know, a movie, a movie star and a movie star, not just a movie star, Colin Firth, but, but a collaborator of with Tom Ford, right. One of the most powerful and iconic people in fashion.

So how does that work? It was really, yeah, it was really interesting. And Livia, I have Livia to thank for a lot of this. I mean, I think we knew from the beginning, like a lot of independent documentaries, we didn't have a marketing budget or Netflix picked the film up and took it out to 190 countries. But we had to do the work of actually making this thing show up on the radar. And that meant we had to get influential people to help this thing get noticed.

And Livia has navigated that world for a number of years between fashion and activism. And so she kind of had a way of positioning it almost, I mean, it was really masterful. I mean, we had folks like Anna Wintour and Tom Ford and all these people coming to our premier events. And I don't know how much they knew what they were coming into, but they were really kind. And, you know, I think it was Tom that gave a really, a very disturbed quote to Vogue after our premiere in London. I mean, these are people that were, they really were shaken and they really weren't callous.

And I had conversations with a lot of these folks, not just on that side of it, but also in some of these major companies and some of these people saying either publicly or privately, this isn't okay, you know? And I hoped, you know, I wanted the film to be strong enough to do justice to what we're talking about, but I also wanted it to be open enough. You know, you mentioned the tone. Like, I made it so that there could be a conversation. There's actually a lot of things in the film that I'm asking questions. I'm not giving firm answers.

I'm not coming to the table with the arrogance of I know how to fix a $3 trillion industry. I'm just saying I think it's time to open up the conversation and be honest about what we're actually dealing with here. And I have been shocked and surprised by how many collaborators I've had in that process and people who I think have wanted

to have a new conversation about fashion and the film has given them a common place to start so companies will do screenings like really really big companies with really big steps and it will act as a neutral starting point for a dialogue or you know the UN has done it's been an interesting thing to see it kind of roll out. There's that amazing sequence in the movie where ms firth kind of calls out that representative from h&m and just she just slams her basically right like walk us through that yeah it was uh the copenhagen fashion summit and it was a you know world gathering of major brands and and NGOs and people that were working on cleaning up the fashion industry. And Livia Firth, one of our producers, was on a panel with the head of sustainability for H&M at the time.

And they were having a conversation about living wage. you know it was just one of those uh it's sort of laughable conversations where laughable and and deeply sad conversations where you have the corporate speak the greenwashing you just sort of have this like yes of course we're trying to get everyone paid living wage and you have olivia just putting her foot down and saying no like it's not okay like it's not okay that we just had a factory fall down and take the lives of these people, followed by another fire, followed by, it's not okay that there's proven data that these people can't live in their circumstance, all these things. And it was really, it was powerful because it was, I think you don't get many times in life where the corporate perspective, which is sort of reminiscent of a very political,

we see it in campaign season sometimes, where it's like, I'm going to say a lot and say nothing. And you have someone sitting next to her who's the ultimate truth teller saying, no, this isn't okay. And you have this room kind of erupting and applauding and, you know, cheering back and forth. And the H&M team is cheering for her. And then, you know, I was in the audience and it was uh it was captivating and i and i really i mean there was so much more to that that i wish could have i mean it was it was really powerful because you are what i think olivia is demanding in that conversation and what we're demanding in the film is to say no matter how complex economically or or otherwise these issues can parade as they are fundamentally moral at the end of the day because they're about human beings.

And that sort of ushers in a clarity to the conversation that the corporate side of it is very uncomfortable having. Right, and H&M refused to grant you an interview for the movie. And there really aren't any talking heads from the major brands, like Gap or these huge companies. you know, talking heads from the major brands, you know, gap or whatever, these huge companies. Um, and I think, you know, it made me think about your approach and, you know, the choices that you've made about how to communicate this message. Uh, and I think I, I saw you say, or read somewhere that you didn't want to do gotcha interviews like you didn't want to just try to

you know trick h&m into granting you an interview and then box them into a corner with a question they weren't expecting like you were very transparent like hey h&m i want to interview you this is what my movie's about like you told them up front you were very honest and clear about that and they said no thank you i don't know how long they thought about it, but, uh, you know, why didn't you, you know, go the cowspiracy route and say, Oh, I'm just making a movie about fashion. And then, you know, get that person in the room and try to ask them that hard question and watch them squirm. Yeah. I think it was because I wanted, I wanted it to be able to play out the way it has, where this could be a constructive criticism. I mean, there's no doubt this is a criticism. I am making something that's really very critical of a set of ideas and a system. At the same time, I want it to be constructive. And I don't want to burn a bridge

in the process of telling the story that it can't be useful once we have the story out there. And I think the other part of me feels like if we keep doing that thing where we demonize the company specifically or the person, it alleviates all of us with the responsibility that we have. And I think I was more interested in saying, let's critique the system. So you see brands in the film and we show logos and their stuff, but there's so much that we chose not to put in the cut. There's so much I had and have of storylines that are just, I mean, some of these corporations are just as bad, if not horrifically worse than you think they are, but it just sort of felt like that's, we sort of know that and the thing that maybe we haven't considered before is what kind of role do we play and what's the system coalesce to create

together not just the individual demonizing of of one one party it's a tall ass though when you say to the consumer like listen you need to ignore all these messages that you're being bombarded with everywhere you go every single day i mean your, your movie is littered with, you know, what it looks like to walk through Times Square. And I think there's footage, it must be Tokyo, where you just see these, you know, dynamic, you know, built, they're not billboards, they're moving images, you know, that as tall as skyscrapers of, you know, beautiful people appearing to be loved wearing fabulous clothes. And it's hypnotic. It's hypnotic. And so it's very difficult to take a step outside of that propaganda machine, for lack of a better word.

I mean, it really is propaganda. They're selling you an idea that isn't really the truth, that you can see in your movie when you juxtapose it up against the factory conditions of the people that are actually producing this concept. You know, it's an idea more than it is the shirt. And I think, honestly, this stuff wouldn't be as upsetting as it is to me. If we were doing this damage on one side of the equation to people and to the environment, if those of us on this end of the equation were happy, if we were actually buying into a story that was making us more whole.

We're getting less happy. It's this double irony. I mean, it's that sense, there was a professor named Tim Castor in the film and he talks about the myths and the storylines of advertising. And it is, you're exactly right. It's promising you something

that it fundamentally is not gonna fulfill. So it is setting people up to live in a cycle of emptiness that is just as profound or dangerous as some of these impacts that we're calling out. And so how do we, you know, how do we like get ourselves together to begin to ignore that? Well, I think part of it is just beginning to be aware that you're being sold to with hundreds of billions of dollars every single day, and you are targeted in a way that would defy your imagination. Everything about your choices and your beliefs and opinions

and the construct of who you are is a target on someone's balance sheet. And they are aggressively trying to make you believe you need to buy more things than you did last month. And that's just true. So for me, that changed just beginning to think along those lines. It's like, I mean, your matrix comment, you're seeing Times Square in a different way when you're thinking along those lines. But I also think there's a void of meaning in a lot of people's lives. And I met, you know, in the film, we have those, the shopping hall girls on YouTube and they're, you know, buying all that. Right. Oh, that's so amazing.

But it's like, you think about, there's been this amazing, there's an annual event now called Fashion Revolution Day, which is huge advocacy and awareness and activism around these issues. And there's been this amazing um there's an annual event now called fashion revolution day uh which is huge advocacy and awareness and activism around these issues and one of the things they did this year is they reached out to to some of those um girls and they showed them the film and they had a conversation and then um they started creating some videos called uh alternatives where they were going to you know use clothing stores and they were telling the story and they were going overseas to these factories and what struck me when i watched those videos is it was like, here's this sense of creativity and passion and energy that these people have. And all it took was redirecting that,

was inviting that to a deeper sense of meaning. So if you're a person that's walking around living life, just, you know, just at the level that that advertising storyline is selling you, I think you're missing out. I think they're promising you something that would be far better served invested into something meaningful. And there's something about meaning. In my life, meaning has a way

of crowding out meaninglessness. And meaninglessness often, what goes with that sometimes is mindless consumption and some of these things. That's amazingly well put. Wow, that's beautiful. So actually these very same vlogger girls or a different set of like YouTube girls?

Yeah, some of the very same, yeah, some of the very same. That's crazy, so in the movie, yeah, you have clips from YouTube of the, you know, like those YouTube channels, teenage girls are shopping. Oh, here's my big haul. Here's what I got. Like, look at all this stuff I got for $100 or whatever, and they're going through it.

And then you look at the counter, it's like four and a half million views, you know. It's amazing how powerful that is. Well, and it's like, you know, honestly, Rich, you've talked about this before, and it's that concept of like, if you're trying to invite change in people and it's that concept of like if you're if you're trying to invite change in people it's like the own changes that have actually made our lives different at any point have not been by saying here's this bad thing you're doing stop doing that bad thing they've been to say how can we replace that habit with this other habit I think it's really dangerous to tell people just buy buy less stuff, like just buy less clothes. Don't be as materialistic. Don't, don't listen to it. You know, but when

you begin to say there's a bigger story happening in the world, like there's something more engaging taking place than you've been led to believe. And when people get a glimpse of that, this other thing seems dim and faded and old fashioned. Right. It just falls away as opposed to, instead of focusing on removing the thing that's bad, focusing on taking the next right or better action. And by virtue of creating a habit around that and what that gives you, the bad thing just sort of seems suddenly not appealing.

I think that's, I think it's very true. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Well, it must've been cool to get to go to Cannes, like as a young filmmaker, like set your second movie. Yeah. Your second movie. So how did that happen? Uh, it was amazing. I mean, we, we basically began to look at the release plan and look at how to position the film. You know, it was right at,

it was, we were, you always look at festivals as like, when are you going to finish the film, you know, it was right at, it was, we were, you always look at festivals as like, when are you going to finish the film? And then when do you want the release to happen? And it just happened to be in the perfect time. And it was, it was so cool because Livia and Colin were there and the, you know, they got together a bunch of their friends who are super not normal friends, if I'm being honest. There was a lot of those moments. Yeah. And they're cool. I mean, there's, I'll never forget some of those memories and it wasn't lost on me. I mean, my producer and I both, and he, he, you know, he's been on this path with me for several years now. And we both have had several moments this last year where you just look around and you just have to pause and

say how, you know, this is extraordinary. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, and the movie came, I mean, how long has the process been from idea to completion? It was about a two-year process as a whole. And then, you know, we're now several, several months now into the release. Right. And it just kind of keeps growing. I mean, it's hit all these markets around the world. So we'll go do special press when it's going to hit a certain, it'll still do theatrical openings in a city or some country or uh festival it kind of just it has this life

it's and it's fun now because it's like releasing a film it's like having a little baby and it needs everything for a while and now it kind of feels like it's it's out in the world it's doing something it's doing its own thing without yeah yeah so what I mean, what's your background? I mean, did you always want to be a filmmaker? I did. I grew up just outside of Atlanta, and I was, I'm trying to make it not sound as cliche as it is. I mean, I was horrible, you know, not a good student in school. There weren't, like, several things to choose between. I picked up a camera really young, I think fourth grade, and took it out and made a short film with my friend that was a skateboarder. I called it skateboarding. And I loved it. I, I, I remember watching ET for the first time, sitting on the end of my bed,

cry my eyes out at the end. And I, I just had these, these moments where I felt like something in this, it felt like wizardry to me. How could I feel so much through someone else's eyes? Like, how could I, it felt otherworldly to me. And I didn't have anyone in my life that was doing it. You know, I wasn't, we weren't in Los Angeles and I, yeah, at the end of high school, I moved out to Los Angeles and went to film school, studied cinematography. And really that was the first time that I felt good at something. I felt like it made sense. Like stories have always been the thing to me that they just click in a way that nothing else in the world intrinsically

clicks to me. And did you meet your producing partner in film school? I actually, I didn't. He and I grew up very close to each other just outside of Atlanta, but we didn't have much interaction growing up. I knew who he was. He went down to Florida State to study journalism and then he moved to Los Angeles and I was actually, I'd written a script for a short film that got financed and I needed a producer and I knew him just because I remembered who he was and we sat down and had dinner one night and I asked him to quit his job at a post house and do that film and it kind of led us on this thing yeah that's amazing so he's so he's extraordinary you made that short film and then you made the documentary we made so we made that short film and it was a

wild film because you know we we filmed with with children and live animals and um we were in the Denali Peaks in Alaska it was this real trial by fire it was very intense film like high production value short film not like in the basement short film yeah and and stressful the process was stressful and in that process I you just begin you just see who someone is and I I just clicked with him he just He just brings to the table fundamentally the things that I don't, and it just works together. So when we finished that film, we created a little creative company together. It was just the two of us called Untold and really just invented that company with no other idea or business model than we just want to keep making stuff together like it this this is working

and um yeah the first feature that we did was was that uh first documentary right and did that go on the festival circuit or what was it really didn't that was that was a very small film i mean it was very personal and therapeutic and life-changing it got picked up by a distribution partner and put out there uh but it we didn't a whole lot with it, partly because we jumped right onto the true cost. Like it was the day we locked that cut and turned it into our distributor. You know, the next day I picked up this newspaper. So it's a small film. It's out there in the world.

But it's an amazing story, though, to hear you talk about just literally having an idea based on you know reading an article and being emotionally impacted by you know the the tragedy in bangladesh fast forwarding to you know not only being on the red carpet it can but the impact that you know this movie has had in the world um you know as a creative, that must be incredibly gratifying. But beyond that, you know, I want to get into a little bit about, you know, the impact that the movie has had. Like, is there any, have you seen change? I mean, I think you just went, didn't you speak at the UN? Something like, tell me about that. Yeah, we've done, there's a group called Fashion for Development with UN that we were with in New York that they,

they're kind of, again, they're on the very high end, you know, the top models, the top designers end of the spectrum trying to push and promote change. Yeah, there's been a lot. It's, it's, it's really interesting when I think about that question, because I think if I'm, if I'm being honest with you, I feel, and I don't know if this is just part of the creative process or what it is, but I feel sitting here today disappointed that there hasn't been more profound change. I could talk about all the things that are being done

and all that, and I think it's hard to measure some of these ideas being put into motion. I think there's a level of awareness. There's certainly, I mean, the film's been screened in fashion schools around the world. It's been, there's all, I could just go down the list of the ways it's being used, and I'm proud of that, so I'm not trying to undermine that.

At the end of the day, the cynic in me, and at the same time, the optimist in me says, I think the film ultimately leads to a very dangerous intersection. And I think you alluded to it earlier where some of the questions I naively began to ask in this film about fashion have their roots in business and economics and the way that we're organizing the world. And I think while we're pushing and promoting all sorts of reform, and I'm not undermining that. There's people that are working in these supply chains.

There's NGOs. There's people that have locked arms with us. There's people that are undercover right now. There's people that are doing profound work to say, let the top come down, but we're gonna just fight to get people organized in these countries to get the bar raised. But they are just meeting unbelievable resistance because this is a system that's still making an absolute fortune and it doesn't bother or it doesn't show up on the radar for most people

and i think when you're making this film truthfully and again this is maybe naively you think this is so scandalous what's taking place. This is so, this has disrupted my life in such a significant way that I just need to put it out there to the world. And I think it's been an interesting, challenging, evolving series of months for me to begin to look towards what's next and what I'm going to use the rest of my life for to say, next and what I'm going to use the rest of my life for to say, okay, awareness and storytelling and, you know, so powerful. And then also like, how can I not just stop there? Like, how can we begin as storytellers to do these things and also really not fall short

of rethinking some of these deeply held beliefs and assumptions and attacking them and fighting them and staying on them because they do take time. So I'm kind of in the middle of that right now. Right. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, I appreciate your honesty about the disappointment, you know, but when you look at like, there's a scene at the end of the movie where you show this footage from Black Friday and people are just losing their shit and just going absolutely bananas. I mean, it's chaos, right? At like probably six in the morning or seven in the morning when the doors to whatever department store that is, you know, open up and this is what you're dealing with.

Like these people like are about as far away from the message of the true cost as anyone is going to be. How are we going to get, how are you going to be able to you know penetrate their consciousness and get those people who are just maniacally shopping out of their minds to you know think differently about this meanwhile the movie tips your hand or you know culture's hand to this industry and says loud and clear like you're under threat so what are they going to do well they're going to marshal all their you you know, massive resources to protect the base and ensure that, you know, they're taking actions to maintain the status quo, right? Yeah, no, I think that's incredibly true. And I think we've felt some of the backlash from that. We felt some of these major conventions and conferences about

ethical sustainability, you know, it's like this year, even more than last year, you know, they're totally sponsored by, you know, one company and it, you know, there's this year even more than last year uh you know they're they're totally sponsored by you know one company and it you know there's such a there's a really driving force i don't think the fashion industry is clueless at all that this is that this is a conversation yeah but i think you know at the end of the day and i don't know i i i mean i'm more interested in your thoughts on this than mine but you said the word consciousness. I think that's what I came to in this whole story. I came to beyond political change and pressures and storytelling and all these things. At the end of the day, I think what we're all in here is this situation where we have to see a significant increase in human consciousness and rather quickly because the stakes really are high. And that's not me, that's just true.

So how do you invite people into the kind of change or the kind of life that I believe would be actually more meaningful and better for them without it being this, you know what I'm saying? Like I think that issue of consciousness and that permeates your work and it's like it's the thing of like there's something deeper going on here and when you see those people rushing into that store on black friday that hits you you're like

this is beyond just a business model this is actually this is about consciousness yeah i don't even know how to you know respond to that i I mean, it's so clear that it's about consciousness. And the method for tapping into that and connecting with people in a manner in which you can get through to them and actually shift that awareness is obviously the ultimate question, right? But there's nothing more powerful

than the moving image you know what i mean much more powerful than a podcast or you know getting up and and talking and i think it you know for me it makes me think a lot about effective ways of communicating right what is the best way to get through to somebody and you know everybody we were talking about this before the podcast like everybody has their own method for every activist has their own voice and their own method you know and i've said this before but you know you have animal rights activists who are screaming and yelling and and you know doing things in a certain way that's not my style of communication i have a very different style. But I think you have to demonstrate through your words and your work and your actions and your daily life

a way of living that, like you said, is raising your daily experience, the quality of your daily experience. But you have to express that in a way that's not only accessible and welcoming, but also, for lack of a better word, like cool. You have to use the tools that Madison Avenue is using to convince you to go buy fast fashion, take a tip from that rule book and use it for the purposes of raising consciousness, right? Instead of attacking it, like, well, what are they doing? What they're doing is working, right? So let's try some of that, but do it in a constructive way.

I think that's profound. And I think what I'm experiencing right now is what you just said. Like, you have found a style, you know, you have found a voice. And I think what I'm doing in this film as a person, you know, aside from the film is I think I'm trying to hone in on that style. And I'm trying to, and walking away from the film, I feel like we hit a nerve. We did something that's been powerful. And the creative part of me just wants to ruthlessly keep getting better at that. How else has it impacted your life personally, other than making you think more deeply about your consumer choices? Yeah, I think it's, yeah, I mean, on the very practical level, it's changed the way we buy clothes and the conversations we're having with our kids and all that. I think on a broader level from that, though, it has raised the bar of the profound opportunity that my life sits in.

I think to spend time with so many people in different parts of the world that don't have access to the same, not just resources, just actual opportunity. You come back to your life here and it's not a sense of guilt. I don't feel that. I feel every day waking up though, a heightened awareness to the fact that I'm in a position, globally speaking, of enormous influence. And the question of how to use that influence, you know, five years ago, two years ago, three years ago, would have been like, I want to use that to build a big career. I want to use that to, and I still have every bit of that in me, like everyone. But there is this other voice now that sort of always is speaking up, remembering and reminding me that

I have the potential to actually use these tools and these abilities that I have to do something profound. And I don't think I felt that before making this film. I don't think I hadn't traveled internationally to the extent that we did. And I just hadn't seen the stakes. I hadn't seen what was actually playing out and how relatively my life fit into that equation. And I'm still wrestling with that. Truthfully, I still, there's still days where I want to, you know, quit what we're doing and go hand out food. You know, it's like, I'm still in that really uncomfortable place, but there's something wonderful about it being a bit more uncomfortable now. Yeah, you can't go backwards, right? And yet you have to acknowledge that you

live in the world, you know? It's like, I don't know where these microphones were made, and here's an iPhone, and I fly on airplanes, and I drive a car, and all these sorts of things that just come part and parcel with living in, you know, modern Western society. And I'm sure if you trace back the modes of production of any number of things that I see sitting on this table here, you're going to go on a similar journey, right? That you went on with garments. So I don't think it's about being perfect. I think it's about being, trying to be better.

Absolutely. If that's incremental or if that's a big leap for you, it's more a matter of signing up for that and going on that journey. Yeah, it's incredibly true, and that's how it's played out in my life. It has been a gateway, and it has opened me up to all these other ideas. I mean, I began asking questions about food. I began to ask questions about it. It's like I began to move in a direction

that I hope continues and one that I wasn't on before this. So what is the primary takeaway that you want the audience to gather from the experience of watching the movie? I mean, I think that we're all living at a really special moment in history. And I think we have the ability to look at the impact we're having on the world, and we have

the ability to be a part of the kind of world we want to have, or to be a part of the destruction that we say we're against. And something as small as clothes, something as simple as a T-shirt, that act actually does add up to have a profound impact, and the film is just my invitation to just consider the possibility that you're far more than a consumer, that you're far more than someone that just walks down the aisle,

that you actually vote, you choose, and that you can be a part of something bigger. What do you say to, you know, the average person who maybe is listening, who just, you know, like they're just, they're working a job. They got kids like you and I do. You know, maybe they're not making that much money. And it's like, look, man, you know, my kids go through clothes like crazy and, you know, I can't afford to, you know, go to wherever, my kids go through clothes like crazy and I can't afford to go to wherever boutique shop. How am I supposed to make this function?

Yeah, well, and I relate to that. I mean, I have four kids. They're all young. They grew out of clothes. You're way too young to have four kids. And I make documentaries. So I'm in a very practical. Highly lucrative. Yeah, someone lied to me about it.

No, this is very practical stuff. And the last thing I'd want to feel is that this is just idealistically above people's everyday experience. I think this stuff's really difficult every day. And I think it's,'s for me a matter of when it comes to clothing in particular rethinking the way that you you interact with clothes more than being perfect on every single item coming from

a boutique so I'm not perfect like our kids wear clothes and they wear out of them and we're buying as much as we can secondhand which is getting easier and easier profoundly for kids. There's even sites now where you can buy and you can send back. Oh, there is? It's really cool, like exchanges. What are some of the sites? Or maybe you can send them to me and I can put them in the show notes.

I'll send you because there's actually just a new one that I saw this week that I think looks like the best one yet. But we've been experimenting with some different ones. So there's very practical things. But also I think just, you know, what you said of just not, the aim not being on perfection, it just being on, you know, is my son wearing something that my daughter can wear that I might have handed back in?

You know, is my, could we, how much do we need? You know, could we actually, and for me or for any adult, like could I invest a little bit more into something that I'm going to have and hold on to versus something that's going to keep me on that conveyor belt of cheap throwaway stuff? And yeah, and honestly, it doesn't have to be, I don't think it has to be a huge financial burden and I'm saying that very practically like to me it's been amount about lowering the amount of consumption a little bit to translate that that space financially and otherwise into making better choices and like let it be fun like my wife and I got into a thing where we would we start to look for things we'd go because it's like we would find and interact with all these great brands doing high seven we couldn't afford them so we had to begin to find ways to you know make good choices but also

make it work for us the stuff in the vintage shops is cooler anyway it's awesome no it's incredible and if you live in major cities and i didn't notice we're making the film if you live in major cities the the increase in really cool secondhand clothing stores is incredible. And it's not a sacrifice to say that I buy stuff secondhand. It's like, I actually, I really love it. I really love it. So, how do you communicate to your kids about this kind of stuff? Well, it's really funny. My kids- How old are they? The oldest is eight and the youngest is four. So, they're very young and it's very interesting

for them to understand like what I'm doing for work. And it's very interesting for them to understand like what I'm doing for work and it was very interesting when I was making the film you know to come home and try to communicate to them you know about the places I was going and who I was interacting with they still are constantly in a state of disappointment that I don't make you know the movies they see on billboards they always ask, did you make Finding Dory, Dad? And when I say no, there's just this genuine like, why not? Deflation.

No, but I think we're just trying to have a conversation with them that is just one that says everything we wear was touched by human hands, that people made it. So let's find out about it. Let's find out who made it. Let's look out about it. Let's find out who made it. Let's look at the tag. Let's find out the country. Let's try, you know what I mean?

It's an amazing thing to just begin. It's like a geography lesson for us. And it's also, when it's a company that we really love, it just opens up this conversation that I frankly never had growing up. Right. What was the biggest sort of shocking thing that you discovered in the journey of making this movie that you didn't expect i think the most the most

personally powerful thing because you know the numbers are astronomical and they're they're in the film and the you know you can you can know this stuff on paper and you can look at the stats and the figures and i could just click down the list. But I think if I'm being honest, for me, it was the experience of the time that we spent with Shima, the mother garment worker in DACA, whose story kind of unfolds in the midst of the film. And I think, I just think there's something about seeing that level of poverty through the lens of working poor, people who are working more hours than I work in a week, people who are leaning in with every bit of their energy to create some kind of life for them and their children, and to see them robbed of some of the most basic human dignity and yet

be some of the most resilient powerful people i didn't expect that like one of the reasons that shima's in the film is shima is the antidote to that sort of western storytelling of like here's the poor pitiful garment worker in the factory the victim the victim that's probably what shocked me the most here's a person who has been born into the most inopportune place in the equation a person who has lived through and is living through stuff that you and i don't even dream of um and yet is so, there's a bravery, a boldness. You know, the work she's doing with the union, we even offered as the film was coming out to pull her out of that factory

so she could be in a more comfortable place with another one of these companies and she turned it down because she said, no, I'm doing something there that's really significant. That, I don't know if it's just the personal nature or if it's the looking at a human being in the eye or spending that amount of time, but that sense of fight, that sense of drive,

that sense of, I think what it did for me is it made me feel like this isn't all an issue of rich Westerners need to figure out and solve these problems. It's like we actually need to begin to let the people that are affected most more into the dialogue because they have some really good ideas. They have some, and they're willing to do the work

to fight on behalf of their own fate. We don't have to do all that for them. We just have to stop boxing them out from being heard. Yeah, that was really powerful. I mean, it isn't a victim narrative. Like she's, you know, very empowered. And when you see the lengths to which, you know, she's willing to sacrifice for a better life for her child and the decisions that she's making and the organizational activities and all of that, it's like, you know, let's create some

structure around people like her to allow, you know, improvement to, you know, let's create some structure around people like her to allow, you know, improvement to, you know, take root and grow. Absolutely. Yeah. Amazing. All right. So if people are wanting to learn more, you know, about these issues, of course, watch the movie. And I got a few more things I want to say about that. But, you know, what are some of the organizations that are out there? I mean, you highlight certain, you know, activists throughout the movie, but you know, who are some of the people that are, you know, going to bat to try to make change in this world? Yeah, there's, there's, there's so many of them. We kind of put together a few different resources on our site that is really just connecting people based on

their area of interest. So someone might watch this and be really, might be the chemical thing, and them connecting to Greenpeace and their work with Detox and that campaign. So there's different offshoots. There's a lot of, this is a huge topic. I think Fashion Revolution Day, to me,

continues to stand as one of the most powerful voices, sort of connecting the dots between a lot of the different activities. And they've sort of encapsulated some of the most powerful campaigners into a forum that really gives them voice. So I think if people look at Fashion Revolution Day a there's an extraordinary amount of information of facts and you know data but also entry points for for activism on the legislative front is there any activity at all on the hill that is you know percolating around this idea of combating the self-policing you know nature of this business? It's so hard. There's not currently.

There was some very good legislation several years back that had unbelievable resonance with the American population. I think it was like upwards of 70. I think it was high 70s of approval for just some basic simple changes like we've been discussing. And it was looking at, and this is the area that I think that we need to look at it on, is the area of imports. So you can't really go around and police the world in the system that we have set up right

now, but we're a huge customer. And so we have a huge opportunity, as a lot of developed countries do when things come in, to have a whole different way of evaluating. And we really do get to set those rules and the market, if you believe in market forces, then great, believe in the fact that they respond to us creating change there. So that's what the legislation was. It was really hopeful.

There's a bunch of very well-known politicians now, especially that were behind it and it was really lobbied to death. And I think I and a lot of people want to see that brought back in a huge way. It's as difficult as it sounds, but again, the approval from people was unbelievably high, cross-polled against different types of, you know, different places all over the country. So, I'm hopeful to see that reintroduced. Right. Well, it's challenging when, you know, the constituency isn't really the people and the constituency is the corporate interest that's at stake in whatever state, you know,

whatever, you know, corporation resides in the state of that representative. Absolutely. Right. But essentially what you're saying is if you can create restrictions on imports such that, is if you can create restrictions on imports such that any garment coming into the country, it has to be vetted and established that it was produced, manufactured in accordance with certain human rights and environmental parameters,

that would be a huge leap forward, right? Yeah, absolutely. This is not a question of like, we don't have the technical know-how. It's like, yes, this is complex, but if there is the impetus for this kind of change to happen, we have it in our tool set existing today

to make these kinds of changes. And the other place that you can look, and there's been a lot of activism from some of the folks, like John Hillary at War on One, who's featured in the film, around the TPP, because a lot of the trade agreement,

the reason activists are so involved in the conversation around trade agreements is, again, trade agreements are one of the best places to write the rules on how are we going to do business in a way that protects the poor and takes care of the environment. And what we're seeing in agreement after agreement after agreement is moving further towards business interest

and further away from protecting the commons, protecting the poor. So that's another point of entry if someone is really fired up about this stuff and wants to look into it. Look into trade agreements and the advocacy that's going on around those because you will find these issues

embedded in the middle of those. Beautiful, man. Well, the movie is fantastic. You did a brilliant, amazing job. And like I said, it's not just about the fashion industry, the garment industry, fast fashion. It is about human rights.

It's about the environment. It's about our relationship to the planet. And ultimately, it's about consciousness, right? Raising consciousness. And I was very moved and impacted by it i highly strongly suggest everybody listening check it out uh i know it's on netflix is that the best place for people that you want people to watch it yeah netflix i think is the most accessible place um but it's on itunes and all these itunes amazon it's it's it's all over the place wherever you consume your vod content and is that across the planet or yeah it is i mean those are hugely international we're in yeah basically every country and if you're in a country that for some reason doesn't have one of

those on-demand uh platforms if um you go to our site truecostmovie.com there's a player there that will let you uh rent it for a couple bucks and that really is uh truly global you shouldn't have an issue streaming that's cool you probably make more money if they do that right is it someone does it better for you oh someone did you did you sell the movie to a distributor beyond or you we sold rights so we sold certain rights to netflix we sold certain rights we kind of it got parceled out in different regions, different areas. And, um, yeah, it's still, it's still working. I'm, I'm hopeful that we'll, I want to, I want to recoup the investment that people put into it, but I think, I think we're on track to do that. Cool. And so what are you working on now? Like what's next? I'm working

on a new film that, um, is like the most exciting thing I've ever done and I'm dying to talk about it, but I can't talk about too much. And I hate saying that. That's not because it's super important. It's just because from a journalistic standpoint, we're actually, it's very, very helpful in this new film that there'd be nothing out there about it. But I'll just say it's a continuation of these ideas.

It's into a new topic, a new arena, but same approach. And we're eight weeks into a new topic, a new arena, but same, same approach. Uh, and I were eight weeks into production right now and it is, I just love it. That's awesome, man. Well, I can't wait to check it out and hopefully you'll come back here and tell us all about it when it's done. Right. I'd love to. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much. Uh, this was really fantastic. Super great to meet you. And, uh, I just love the film and wish you success in everything that you're doing, man. We need more young people, young filmmakers out, you know, making movies about important issues. And so I applaud you for that.

Thanks. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Cool. So if people want to connect with you, the best place, best places online to do that would be true cost the true cost just true cost movie dot com

and then yeah from there you'll see our social stuff and you'll see everything else going on right right on man thanks a lot

thanks again peace plants so that should give you more than a few things to think about right i thought that was awesome thank you andrew for taking the time that was just a fantastic conversation and at the risk of sounding repetitive everyone please make a point of checking out the true cost it's streaming on netflix or you can find it on itunes amazon and of course at truecostmovie.com. And definitely check out the episode page for show notes at richroll.com.

I got tons of cool stuff there to delve deeper into all of these issues that surround the garment industry and globalized supply chain economics and fast fashion and et cetera, right? What else? Check out my YouTube channel and subscribe for vlogs and more,

youtube.com forward slash richroll. If you go to richroll.com, we've got all kinds of cool plant-powered merch and swag. We've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and Plant Power Way. We've got plant-powered t-shirts. We've got running tech tees. We've got stickers. We've got swag. Good stuff. I want to thank everybody who worked very hard to put on today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, all that good kind of techie stuff. Sean Patterson, he does all the graphics every week. Thanks, Sean. Chris Swan for production assistance. Chris also puts together all the show notes, which is a huge job. Thank you, Chris.

And Theme Music by Analema. Thanks for all the support, you guys. Final thought. Every day, each and every one of us, myself included, make all kinds of purchases that we really don't think twice about. It never occurs to us to consider what went into this or that. And I've learned to do this with food, to really be more conscious about the choices that I'm making and be more informed about the chain of production. And that experience has spilled over into the choices that I make with respect to many of my garment purchases informed by people like Andrew and his movie and Joshua Katcher, my conversations with him.

But I still have a long way to go on this journey and to really mature into this. And I suspect you do as well as humans, of course, none of us, we're all very far from perfect in this regard. So this week, next time you find yourself at the store, at the mall, at Walmart or Target or H&M or The Gap or wherever, and you find yourself reflexively reaching out to grab that thing. Take a beat. And ask yourself a few questions. Where did this come from? How did it get here?

What exactly went into this? I'm not saying you're going to get answers. But I think it's important to begin this process by taking the action of asking. And maybe you buy this thing. Maybe you don't. But either way, when you go home, maybe go online and see what you can find out about that item, about that thing you bought or didn't buy. And either, I think one of two things will happen. Either you're going to get answers and you're going to find out information about the production, where it was produced, what the conditions are of, you know, the factory, where it was produced,

etc. Or you're not going to be able to find anything. And that might even be more revealing and interesting. I think it's a worthwhile practice, something I'm going to do this week, and I hope you guys do as well. That's it. See you guys soon. Peace. Plants. Thank you.