The Rich Roll Podcast - Anthony Taylor: The Outdoors Evangelist On How Nature Heals

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Time in nature is powerful. It’s healing. It fosters community. Humanity’s connective tissue, it shows you who you are and what you’re capable of becoming. The outdoors has played a transformational role in my personal evolution. In almost every way I am a different, better human because I make copious use of the untouched natural spaces available to me—spaces I access freely and have long taken for granted. However, the uncomfortable truth is that outdoor parks (nature in general) are places where historically not everyone has been entirely welcome. This is a paradigm we must diligently work to dismantle. It’s also the spark that illuminates the work of Anthony Taylor—an extraordinary human who has spent his life advocating for greater participation and access to outdoor environments, and the second guest to appear in my continuing series of conversations from my week in Minneapolis. The former Commissioner for Minneapolis’ Parks & Open Spaces and current Senior Vice President of Equity, Outdoors & Nature for YMCA of the North, Anthony is—at 62 years old—the very model of anti-aging. A skier, paddler, accomplished ultra-cyclist and overall outdoors enthusiast, Anthony serves on the League of American Bicyclists Equity Advisory Board as well as the board of the National Brotherhood of Skiers. He is also the founder of the Major Taylor Bicycling Club of Minnesota and the co-founder of Cool Meets Cause, an outreach program that teaches girls from North Minneapolis to snowboard. And he served as the Adventure Director for the Loppet Foundation—a program that provides year-round outdoor activities for youth in Minneapolis. This is a conversation about the nature of outdoor recreation to empower, enliven, and inspire. It’s a walk through Anthony’s origin story. And it’s an exploration of his love of nature and his accomplishments as a cyclist and adventurer. But the focus of this exchange is placed on Anthony’s important work as an activist and youth educator. It’s a history lesson on race, class, privilege, and gender in the outdoors. And the many ways we can eradicate the invisible boundaries that exist in these spaces today. Certain transformative lessons can only be learned through adventure—lessons imperative to youth development and deeper connection to our own innate humanity. Put bluntly, outdoor sports and time spent in nature aren’t just recreation—they are human rights. I guarantee this conversation will positively impact you in ways you may not expect. My hope is that it will help foster ways you can advance greater outdoor inclusivity within your community along the way. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll599 YouTube: bit.ly/anthonytaylor599 Special thanks to talented Minneapolis local photographers/videographers Bennie Wilson and Jordan Lundell for portraits & an upcoming video we are working on. Anthony is the leader we all need now. And this conversation is definitely a fave. Peace + Plants, Rich

You know what, I really believe that outdoors, nature, and adventure, like kind of those activities, are the best place for us to actually grow and experience this thing around social-emotional learning. Something about outdoors is always about personal best. It's always about situational awareness. They're always about skills development. So the best athlete won't always be the best climber, right? It's the person who masters the skills. The best skier will not be the best athlete. It'll be the person that focuses on a master in the skills, right? So they're progressive skill-based. They create opportunities for us to have self-discovery you know they're personal best oriented again this idea of controlling yourself in an environment that you have no control over

that's the stuff that life is made of and I actually think that outdoors and nature offer that opportunity to everybody who shows up everybody who shows up can have that experience outdoors and for communities of color, for marginalized community, what I know is that those experiences are the ones that build your humanity, your confidence, that help you understand beyond racism's impact on you. In a simple example, and you all can go test this, I believe that women who spend time outdoors have a much higher body concept than the average person because everything in the world wants women to hate their bodies. I think outdoors activities, hiking, biking, climbing, you know, there are these things we do. It actually reframes

your relationship to your body around its ability to do work instead of the aesthetic. And I believe that's an opportunity for everybody. And for communities of color, it's an opportunity that we don't see in our arsenal. So that's my message to them, is tell me about the humans you want your kids to be. And my answer is always going to be take them outside. That's Anthony Taylor, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you because this episode is a gemstone. Let me first, I guess, back up and just say for a wee bit of context that as many of you know, the outdoors has played no small part in my life arc,

my personal transformation. In almost every conceivable way, I'm a different human, a better human, because I make copious use of the outside spaces available to me. I think most would agree that time in nature is powerful. It's healing. It connects you to your community, of course, to yourself. And so much of it is about connecting with what it means to essentially be human. The trails, the mountains, the ocean, the pools, these things mean everything to me. They are spaces that I access freely, spaces I consider to be an unalienable right

and spaces I freely admit I basically take for granted. But unfortunately, the uncomfortable truth is that the outdoors, parks, nature in general are spaces where historically, not exactly everyone has been entirely welcome. This is a paradigm we must, of course, diligently work to dismantle. And it's the spark that illuminates the work of today's guest, Anthony Taylor,

a truly extraordinary human who has spent essentially his entire life advocating for greater participation and access to outdoor environments. And also the second guest to appear in my continuing series of conversations from my week in Minneapolis. The former commissioner for Minneapolis's parks and open spaces and current senior vice president of equity outdoors and nature for YMCA of the North, Anthony is at now 62 years of age, a very model of anti-aging. He's a crazy fit outdoors enthusiast, an accomplished ultra cyclist, and the founder of the Major Taylor Bicycling Club

of Minnesota. By the way, as a quick aside, Anthony tells an absolutely mind-bending story about Major Taylor, who was the world's first black sports superstar. That story alone is worth tuning in for, but I digress. In any event, in addition, Anthony serves on the League of American Bicyclists Equity Advisory Board, as well as the board of the National Brotherhood of Skiers. He's the co-founder of Cool Meets Cause, an

outreach program that teaches girls from North Minneapolis to snowboard. And he served as the adventure director for the Loppet Foundation, a program that provides year-round outdoor activities for youth in Minneapolis. This conversation is D-O-P-E dope. It's amazing and it's coming up quick, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones

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this is a conversation about the nature of outdoor recreation to empower, to enliven, and to inspire. We walk through Anthony's origin story, his love for the outdoors, of course, as well as his accomplishments as a cyclist. But the focus is really on the important work that he's doing as an outdoor activist and youth educator. It's also a history lesson on race, class, privilege, and gender in the outdoors. And the many ways that we can work to eradicate the invisible boundaries that exist in these spaces even today. It's also about the transformative lessons

that can only be learned through adventure, why these lessons are imperative to youth development and our own innate humanity, and why outdoor sport and time spent in nature isn't just recreation, it's a human right. I can pretty much guarantee this conversation is going to impact you, motivate you to get outside more.

And my hope is that it will also help foster ways in which you can advance greater outdoor inclusivity within your community. I learned a ton from Anthony. This one is definitely a fave. So here we go. This is me and Anthony Taylor. I mean, you're kind of a community leader at large, right?

Like you're just sort of out there in the outdoor spaces, you know, trying to get people excited about being outdoors. You're with the YMCA now, right? Is that the official? That's, well, you know, and I should say it's like the job, but I think you're right. I feel like I'm an accidental advocate. I really had the great, you know, opportunity, I don't know, seven years ago to, you know, really step back from business entrepreneurship. And then I decided what I was going to do. And this new startup organization called the Lopit Foundation was about to do this big capital campaign and do something that hadn't been done,

which was do a partnership with a park and program it. And really from where we are right now, we're five minutes from Theodore Worth Park, which is this amazing park in the middle of the city, the same size as Central Park, as a matter of fact. Is it really that big? It's that big. Wow. And so we had this idea of, well, let's build this outdoors, instead of a health club where you go in and work out, this is a health club building where you go in, but everything pushes you outside. So you come in, change clothes, go for a mountain bike ride, go for a ski, go for a trail run, go for a bike ride.

And that was the idea. But really what was unique about it is it was cropped right in the middle of the densest population of African Americans in the Twin Cities. of African Americans in Twin Cities, right? So if we're gonna do this, we have an obligation, right, to connect this geography to the black community in North Minneapolis, right? And so that began me working really in community. And what I say is like, you know, everybody thinks they know the solution from public schools.

Well, and I say that the truth of the matter is that it's like the only thing that makes you an expert on being a parent is not having kids, right? It's the same thing, right? So we know all the solutions for public schools until you're in a public school. You know all the solutions around

working in the African community or working in under-resourced communities or communities where they're challenged or the worst performing schools, however you care, you know how to do that until you're doing it, right? And that was a formative experience. That was seven years ago, eight years ago. And it just changed the way that I do work.

In what way? Is that one, I think it changed the way I view the people or the community, because I think that the way that we start, you know, often we do this in youth development, we do this with communities of color, we do it with challenged communities, is that we believe they need to be fixed. Like, we actually believe that, you know, truth of the matter is something's wrong and we can fix it, right? Rather than thinking about them as really this whole person responding to all the inputs on it. And the real foundation of them is that they are an asset to be cultivated and developed, right? And that they will then be part of creating solutions to

make themselves stronger, better. You know what I mean? And so, you know, you make that shift mentally and then you literally start doing programming differently, you know, and that's what I mean. From the perspective of respecting and empowering the young people and trusting in them to basically forge the future that we're trying to repair. And you know what else is children don't exist alone.

Do you know any kids who exist alone? Do you know any kids who exist alone? Do you know any kids who buy groceries? No. Some, you know, but I mean, generally, so even that is one of those things that you shift as you go, it's not a child, it's a family. Like, so if you're gonna actually influence a child, who do you really have to influence?

The parents. The parents. And if you're really gonna influence the parents, who do you have to be? You have to be the cool uncle that shows up on the weekend and says the same thing the parents say. Right. Right. Well, the cool uncle is often more influential on the child's behavior because the kids don't want to hear it from the parent. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying, so now you're a partner to the parent, And I'm saying, so now you're a partner to the parent, same values, same perspective, different voice, right? So that's a dramatically different approach to working with youth and working with families, right? And who's the real influencer?

The parent. So now all of a sudden you start, so you see what I'm saying? It's like, and I think that that's just one way that it influenced the work, you know, around it. But it's just like, that's something. And I learned a lot, like being in those schools, you know, we think educators are a challenge. Well, I don't, you know, our educators are a challenge,

our parents are a challenge, our kids, who's the challenge? But when you work in schools, you have a lot of people in the ecosystem, right? And you're constrained by the bureaucracy and the traditions that are based into it. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so there's the bureaucracy built into it. Now, post-George Floyd, no one actually has a problem saying that the system is the challenge and that systemic racism, right?

Historical marginalization. I mean, all those things are real. And so therefore, where we have to work together and influence that is changing what? We change the people or we start impacting the system that are impacting the people. Right, that perspective or that idea about how to solve the problem spans the spectrum

from let's just blow it up completely to, well, we need to work piecemeal within the system. We kind of know how that works. Nothing really seems to ever change in a fundamental way when you do that. But what really forges real change? How do you see, you know, the progress within our, you know, generational lifetime? Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, I think, you know, the idea of changing in a generational lifetime, like that is actually a really big idea that this is generational change. And I think even when you say that, I mean, think about the times as an adult over time where when you talk to people about what's happening and they think about it in this moment, right?

Versus it being generational, right? I mean, even that idea is like really- Right, it's the legacy of decades past. That's exactly right. But when you look at the young people, I mean, imagine you're a parent, right? How old are your kids? 10 and 16. 10 and 16.

All right, so you're a 10 year old kid. You're growing up amidst everything that's happening here. What does it look like when you're 40? When they inherit the legacy of what's transpiring now, that gives me hope and optimism. Well, it gives me hope and I agree, it really gives me hope and optimism, but I will say that one of the things that's changed

is that 40 year olds, right? And actually even longer than that, and I think Minnesota is a really great example of this. And I think the East Coast is even a stronger example of this, actually, is that if you talk to someone old enough, if you talk to your grandparents, they will tell you they remember when they weren't white. So in Minnesota, what we have going on is we got the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, the Jews, the Germans. You got all those, right? Somalians too. That they're new. Those are the best new to this.

And they always been black. I'm saying that if you talk to people old enough, they will remember when white people weren't white. Meaning like the Irish in New York City or whatever. Who is the underclass kind of shifts. Right, not only the underclass, the inhumane. So you have to kind of really think about the fact that in the beginning of this experiment,

white people moved here and they weren't white. They were Irish or they were Finnish or they were German or whatever the hell they were, but you know what they didn't get? They didn't get to be white yet. They hadn't earned that, right? And so the idea, I mean, it's just, and so here we, matter of fact, I grew up in Milwaukee, right? So, you know, it really, like, as far as the Polish, the jokes about, I just, that always, I didn't get that for a long time when I was a kid, right?

But people love telling those jokes, right? But as I got older, I kind kinda, I got, you know, so they were the low white people. But the systemic aspect of it, what's baked into it is the implied or implicit like idea that at some point you aspire to, or you inherit this mantle of being white. Right, like that's, it's like, when do you get accepted as being a member of the white class?

That's right. So you have to exactly say, so when do you get to be white? It's not even like you don't even, and the people that inherited are the second, but the first generation of people, they knew they weren't white. They knew they were Finnish or Norwegian or German. And you know what? And still the Swedes don't like the Norwegians and Norwegians don't

like the Swedes. They gang up and don't like the Finns. And thank God black people came along because now the Finns got to get in the club. Right. It just begets the cycle of like, when do we get to look down on somebody? That's right. And then socially, what we did in this country is we created economic and social benefits for whiteness. Like we, and that's, I don't even talk, I don't say white privilege. I talk about the social benefits of whiteness. And what we can talk about, if we look back long enough, we will see that there's been economic and social benefits of whiteness to the point that people drop the ski off their name, drop the sun off their name. They, right, because you want to be an Anders, not an Anders son, right?

You want to be a Chekin instead of a Chekinski, right? I mean, however you do that, all those things you do and to walk away from culture and this and your name and your look, and then you can become white. And then the benefits of that become where you can live. And then government-wise, there's always been benefits to becoming white. There's always been benefits,

social and economic benefits of whiteness are real. And they've been being compiled for such a long time that nobody, you know, who the second generation doesn't know the truth of that. And so here we are in Minneapolis in this moment right now, where it does feel like this is, it's a boiling over moment, right? Like it's all coming to the surface. And part of that back to this idea of hope or optimism,

like when it's all out there, now we have a chance to reckon with it, to grapple with it and hopefully, you know, craft a healthier future forward. But you know, how are you like, it's crazy out there right now. There's Humvees everywhere, the curfews, the Dante protests going up in Brooklyn Center. Like, how are you feeling right now?

Like what's going on inside your head? How are you processing everything? Yeah, I think the one thing I'm actively, proactively trying to do my own maintenance around self-care. That's one. I think the other thing is that having a strategy for you have to take action. Like, I think that helps. I don't, I mean, for me, part of my work is I'm actively taking action all the time, you know, around it right now. So the ability, you know, like even with the YMCA,

you asked about one of the things we're doing with the YMCA is saying, we're going to make our camp properties available for people to retreat, like just for free. We're going to create opportunities for people to get outside and do it for free. But one thing that happened in the pandemic is that it forced people to think, maybe I should go for a walk. Like, I think that, you know, it's been like, you know, so the idea of how do we position people getting outside? How are we creating spaces for people to do that? How are we creating conversations for people, giving people, forcing people to talk about it? Because I think that one of the things that people thought

is the best strategy for me is if I just don't feel, right? If I don't feel, if I become numb, then I can get through this. As a coping mechanism. It's just a coping mechanism. You don't actually not feel, right? You still do that. Just repressing it. That's exactly right. So that's what I really have been trying to do is create outlets for really how I'm feeling, connecting to people and creating opportunities for them to do that, to go, really, how am I feeling? Like, how am I actually feeling, you know, and being conscious about the visual kind of digestion of it. Like I've been very conscious not to watch the news first thing

in the morning, not to do this, not to do that, you know, try to figure out how to get away from that dull noise and that distraction, you know, all day. Right, and how are your kids dealing with it? You know, my 10 year old, actually, the thing for her is actually what you described, the physical presence of seeing the National Guard on a street that is normally really, like that is kind of, you know,

messes her up a little bit, right? Because that's, you know, that doesn't make sense or helicopters or like all those things are disturbing. So really, for her, it's been really working through that, like in just talking actively and reframing why they're here, what can we do, and creating rituals for her to go to bed, really anchoring ourselves in rituals of eating and activity and those kinds of things for her to go to bed, you know, really anchoring ourselves in rituals of eating and activity and those kinds of things for her to be calm.

My son is 16. And for him, and you know, when you talk about the young people, as a 16 year old, one of the things, and actually one of the things you said, but one of the things that gives me hope is that these young people,

their reality, first of all, is significantly more integrated than ours ever was. Yeah. You know, they also have had social justice baked into their, you know, reality. Right. Like, they have always known social justice, even if it's just, you know, non-binary gender reality. Like, they are open, right? So, he has white friends that they are aligning together and going

to protests, right? That those young people are understanding the language of social justice and around white evolution around, you know what I mean? Like the evolution of young white advocates. If you talk to them, they like, they know all the language of being an ally. They understand privilege. They talk about stepping back. I mean, it's a very interesting thing. You watch them moving together. It actually is pretty unbelievable. And playing a support role in terms of your power and privilege, providing food, providing

connect. I mean, like there's something that they're doing in terms of a dance right now that is actually pretty compelling. And I think you're right. The challenge is that they also, they're not afraid, right? They're 16 and 22, so they don't have any healthy fear either, right?

Right. That imperviousness, you know, with those hormones that you have at that age. That's exactly right. And the adrenaline is worth it all, right? You know, there's a part of them that that is. I can go south though, like, you know, the 16, you get angry and shit goes sideways.

That's exactly right. And that is the value of intergenerational conversation. Like, so even that's one of the things I think about, you know, in terms of why we have to stay connected to our young people. We may not be on the front line, but we have to stay connected to them. We have to offer advisory. We have to offer some of that, you know, those opportunities to kind of bring them down a little bit, create those, you know, those, you know, bumpers. You know, we want them, you know, we want them to go out there and throw their body at the pans, but let's put some

bumpers up so they hit some pans, right? But yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. And like I said, I think that's the value of intergenerational work and the role that we play. I think that the 40-year-olds and the 50-year-olds have to find their role in this movement too. And part of it is an advisory role. And then the 65-year-olds, 75-year-olds, like they were there in 1965, right? So there's also an element of opportunity for them to really engage from an experiential.

I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that's a, what kind of missed opportunity is that if we don't connect 1965, you know, to 2021. Right. Right. In terms of the, you know, the moment, because they look similar. Yeah.

You know, it actually looks, there's, you know what I mean? There's something, even in terms of the multi-generational movement of it, you know, it was a multi, it was a multiracial movement. Yeah. Yeah, tying to that legacy feels like, I mean, if you were somebody who participated in that time and you're in your 60s or 70s now, there's so much to be learned from that experience.

But also I suspect some level of jadedness, like we did this before, man. And look, we're still doing it again. Like, are we just gonna keep doing this? Well, and so that's gonna be a great interview to see that. But I think that the jadedness, if the ones that are jaded sometimes feel also unacknowledged.

Like, I think there's an aspect of it that is also acknowledging that it began. Like, I think there's an aspect of, of it that is also acknowledging that it began, like, this is not new. Like, even if we just, if we just acknowledge that this is not new, it puts us in a very different position, right. In terms of how we move forward. And, and I think, you know, that that's, that's something that is very, you know, very American too, right? Is that we overvalue 20, generally. We overvalue the moment of the 20 year old in general. And that is something- Yeah, we've lost the reverence

for the wisdom of the elders. That's exactly right. That's right. And I think this could be an opportunity for us in some regard, do that again, to make that connection. Because I do think that they have learned something. And more importantly, you know where I think we really get value from them, probably, is the post-movement movement that didn't happen. Because I think that the thing that they would say is they became complacent.

They thought that those initial things around policy actually were a solution and they were just the beginning, you know, that they, or they got old and bought a Volvo. I, you know, I don't know what they're going to say, but, but you know what I mean? Like, you know, that at some point, you know, even as we think about this, what do we do? The challenge for us is, is not to stop, right? I mean, that we, you know, you get a verdict, okay, now, and now, you know, we're good, you know, probably not. Or we get a verdict that goes the other way. And we were talking about that before the podcast, right? Like everybody's thinking about what's gonna happen

next week or over the next several days, if and when the jury comes back, how are you preparing for that? What does that look like? And there's a stress associated with that, right? Like there's a trauma to that, that you're carrying around on some low level at all times. That's right.

And that's when we keep thinking about it, especially preparing for a non-guilty verdict, right? Like, you know, just, you know, that there's like, and I've heard two different things. One is the people who are saying, you know, I actually don't have hope for it. That's a bad place to be. And then there are the people that go, you know, well, you know, it's not going to happen, but we, you know, we're ready to protest or how do we protect against the protest or, you know, how do we, like I said, how do we protect against the fact that people can respond and be upset against a lesser charge? And I think, you know, what I feel like I'm trying to do in my circles is say to people,

you know, let's separate from the trial that's going on. Let's really think aspirationally for what is it we want to create in terms of the world we're gonna live in. Like really, what are the characteristics of the outcome of this movement, of this awakening that we have had as a community around what the challenge is, right? What is it we really wanna look like and what are the things we need to do that? So, because that is independent of the trial, right?

Right, and irrespective of the outcome or whatever the verdict is, there's always an opportunity, right? So, if it doesn't go the way that you would like it to go, where is the opportunity in that to forge the change you want to see? Well, and, you know, honestly, if you and I visualize a practical experience of what it looks like for there to be equity, for social justice to be realized, for us to, you know, if we think about that independent of the trial,

really we're creating what the opportunity is. And if we know what that is and you and I work to define, well, what is the work we have to do to do that? That's independent of the trial. Right, it's being proactive rather than just responding or reacting to external circumstances you don't have any control over. And that's the key part. We actually don't have control over what's going to happen there.

But what we can do is visualize what that future looks like, start defining what the work is for that. And let's move towards that because the truth is that is actually more empowering for us, right? It actually puts our energy in a good place. It gives us a hopeful vision for the future. I mean, and now you and I can immediately talk about how we ally, right? We can describe what that looks like. We can, well, what resources are you bringing to bear? You know, you're bringing media.

You know, you're bringing this reach. What am I bringing to bear? I'm actually, I'm going to say, no, I'm bringing bikes and people. We're going to do whatever we're going to do that does this. We can start to plan for that now. We don't have the trial. Right. Doesn't have to dictate that.

Right. You know? Meanwhile, you are getting bikes to people, right? Didn't you, you got like 300 bikes to essential workers and stuff like that. Like you were handing out bikes, like candy bars for a while. Well, you know, last year when COVID-19 shut everything down, it was just an accidental thing that perked up on our radar, which was, as a matter of fact,

the first place we noticed it was New York, which is really interesting, right? That the essential workers in New York realized that the, let me say the medical community realized the worst place you could be if you want to actually stay healthy is public transportation. Yeah. Right. So the people who had the ability said, okay, I can bike. And they, you guys got city bike in New York. So people started using those. There wasn't enough of them. They couldn't keep them clean. They took them off the street. So then people started buying bikes. Bike shops were out of bikes in the March.

And their supply chain's all messed up. So you can't even get new bikes. They're all sold out. That's right. They couldn't get new bikes. It was such a mad rush on bikes. And we knew. So here in the Twin Cities,

quality bicycle parts is based here. Most people don't know that. They're probably the largest distributor of bike parts in the world. And they're based like 15 minutes from here. So we have relationships there and they were already telling us they were out of tubes, like crazy, weird stuff. So then we said, okay, well, how do we support essential workers who aren't the high earners, who weren't the early adapters, and get bikes to them?

So that was really the goal was that we worked with another local organization here called Free Bikes for Kids and actually Alina Medical, Alina Healthcare. We got 300 bikes and then we just reached out. And again, the goal was really the frontline workers in our essential worker community. And we made bikes available for free. And we made bikes and helmets and locks available to them for free. And all they had to do is say that they, you know, that they needed one and that they would ride to work. And, and it was, and that was really the initiative. And then once we did that, we found out they needed bikes for their families. Right. So then we, then we organized another set of bikes and, and then we gave those to the family members of those essential workers. And, and this is back in March and April. So as you know, Minnesota summer hadn't even broken yet, right?

And then in May, it became helping people actually have success with riding new bikes. So people got new bikes, people were trying to use them. And so then we really focused our energy on and helping people have a successful experience. It's such a powerful lever because once you have that bike, it represents so many things,

fitness, of course, but also freedom, the ability to roam. And then, I know this is a big part of your advocacy, but once you're out on a bike and you're not in an Uber or a taxi or a train or whatever, you have a tactile relationship with the neighborhoods that you're kind of navigating through. And it really changes the frame with which you interact

with those neighborhoods and the people that live there. You hit the nail on the head is that in truth, it's not even about the bike, right? It is literally about reframing the relationship you have to the place you live, right? I mean, that is, and really for, especially in challenged communities, you know, there's a disconnect you make to the geography you live in some ways, right? You know, you just, you teleport in and teleport out, right? And you live in your house, right? Instead of living in your community, right? And there are lots of reasons for that.

But that's exactly right. It reframes the relationship to the place you live. You know, and in a really, in a big picture way, you know, isn't the history of racism, the history of the way that xenophobia, you know, and the history of, you know, gender bias is actually all about limiting mobility. Like, you know, or controlling the body. Like, if you really think about it in those gross terms, controlling the body, right, limiting mobility has really been always the point.

So the bike itself actually represents this initial breakthrough in terms of creating mobility. Like it's about mobility, moving through your neighborhood, moving around the city with freedom, right? As you, I mean, like as you want to in a self-propelled manner, right? And so the symbolism of that is really big. Yeah, it's transgressive in that regard. When you juxtapose that or contextualize it against what happened in Chicago in, what, it's transgressive in that regard. When you juxtapose that or contextualize it

against what happened in Chicago in, what was it, 1919? Yeah. Yeah, when the black person walked down the beach and crossed that imaginary line into the white beach and it caused all those riots. Like this is the evolution of that in a way to deconstruct those boundaries deconstruct those boundaries that are not like, you know, they're invisible boundaries. That's right. And that really is insightful,

I think. And you're one of the few people who actually know that. Like, I think that's even in terms of us putting this in the context of history, which this is the generational piece of it, right? Is that that 1919 event, and one of the things I point to that a lot is because I'm always saying to people that you have to realize that this issue of outdoors and equity is really important because one of the first great riots around race in this country started over an imaginary line on a beach in Lake Michigan, right? Around this access to public space, who has a right to be where, and it could cost you your life. And that was the first one, but there's been multiple versions of that same thing. And more recently, when you look at the last desegregated spaces

in America were public green spaces, were public pools. And as a matter of fact, white America in St. Louis or Milwaukee, Kansas City, Detroit, rather than let black people in public pools in those spaces, they'd rather, they shut them down. They shut them down. I mean, all you have to do is study the history of public pools in America.

And it's literally a history of race relations. That's right. It's incredible. There's a woman called Bonnie Soy who wrote a book called Why We Swim. She was on the podcast and a big part of that book is about that. And it's super fascinating. You know, I grew up in the Washington DC metropolitan area.

I was originally from Michigan. And one of the things I realized when we moved to Washington is there aren't that many pools. There used to be, you know, every, in the Midwest, there's pools at all the high schools for the most part, right? And suddenly there aren't. Why not? Well, it all goes back to that very thing that you're speaking about. Yeah. No, I think, and that's again, a really, just the kind of the point of, you point of why public green space, why outdoors represents something very significant relative to our fight around racism.

Like that's exactly right. And I think, again, we don't, even now, we can actually predict all significant disparities by zip code. It doesn't matter disparities in healthcare, disparities in education, disparities in income, education, educational attainment. You can predict every one of those by zip code in America right now. And that is grounded in the work that was done for segregation beginning in the early 1900s as well. You know, the initial things around redlining all flowed from the FHA, you know, mortgages. So from federally backed mortgages, that was the beginning of it, right?

Created those delineations. And this city is no different than that. It was all around space and land. and land. Yeah, this idea that black bodies in public natural spaces have always been managed and controlled strikes people in a counterintuitive way because when you think of outdoor spaces or public parks, the kind of knee jerk reaction, at least, you know, me being a white dude is they're open spaces. Like they're open to everybody. What are you talking about?

So it requires a more kind of nuanced, historically grounded, you know, education to understand why they're not as open as one might suspect. So talk a little bit about what that means. Well, I think the first thing that you described right away is that they are public, but they are controlled. That we've done a lot of things. And there's two pieces to me.

And one of the pieces I think that we often miss is that the movement of black people from the South to the North all happened in one window of time. So the Great Migration happens really between 1950 and 1970, let's call it. And when all those people moved here, they were outdoors people. That's one thing I said. They were black people connected to the land. They farmed fundamentally. They fished.

They hunted. There was a connection to the land. They farmed fundamentally, they fished, they hunted. You know, there was a connection to the land. There's a long legacy of that, right? And even in Washington, D.C. area, as soon as you're not in D.C., you're in the country. You're in Virginia, you're in West Virginia, you're in, you know, so there were people connected to the land. Beginning in the late 60s, early 70s, you start to see this collection of people in cities, right? And the first thing

they did was control where black bodies could go. So they actually created areas where you could live in places you couldn't live, right? And then those parks, right? We wound up patrolling, controlling, right? They weren't safe in that regard. And the other thing that simultaneously happens is the beginning of creating the identity of blackness as urban. Right. The idea that urban and black is synonymous is a new thing. Is a new thing. I mean, but it's only new if you think 40 years is new. See, so we're old enough to go that's new.

But you know what I mean? Like that kind of idea. New would be, you know, that's what I say. One of the negative things about the internet is history is what happened last week. You know, and that's how anything older than that is prehistory. And so, but you're absolutely right. The last 40, 50 years has been the creation where we, when you say urban, you could mean black. And as a matter of fact, usually when people say urban, they mean black, right?

And so that's a new creation. And that grounding of identity has really been based on the fact that policing, geography, banking, housing has all been about controlling black bodies into very specific geography, right? And they're dense, they're not green. It hasn't been a commitment to using natural space as a necessary need for well-being, which is how we talk about it right now. Right. You know, and so that's really significant. And simultaneously, you know, we get the growth of the environmental movement, you know, as we see at the Sierra Clubs and, you know, those organizations all pop up out of the 60s. And I think that though, that was really white America's response to black power. Like, you know, that you look at-

That's interesting. You know what I mean? You think about when does the women's movement start, the black movement start, the Chicano American movement, Latinx, whatever we call it at that time. When does the gay movement start? That all those movements start when?

65 to 75, right? When does this movement emerge? As we call it that time. When does the gay movement start? All those movements start when? 65 to 75, right? When does this movement emerge? As we know it, same window of time. Same window of time. And so it's just an interesting way that that happens. And then as this simultaneously happens, we get the growth of like outdoors is the lone adventurer.

Now you need a lot of gear and it's recreation. And that's what we've grown in the last, you know, 50 years too, right? And that's what I'm, I'm that guy, right? You know, I get those, you know, he joked about that, you know, the rooftop rack, bike wing on the front, you know, this. And so all of a sudden, you know, this way that we've cultivated it now is very different than what it used to be. And because these are fundamentally

socially oriented events, and really outdoors is fundamentally a social pursuit, we have to acknowledge America is socially segregated. That fundamentally America is socially segregated. So one of the things that black people, brown people do when they're not at work is they organize with other black and brown people. Like it's like a recuperative strategy because I got to be in white America all day.

Like that's me. So the way that I balance that is when I have my social options, they're fundamentally oriented towards whoever your people are. And so outdoors, as we see it as recreation, social, this, so what does it black people do when they don't hang out with white people? Right. Or they don't do that. I mean, the trope of like black people don't camp,

black people don't swim, they don't ride mountain bikes or go surfing. And then the kind of legacy of that notion gets baked into the next generation of black people who then believe that that is the case and don't understand that there are external forces that have created that reality artificially. And young people, especially,

because that's one thing I think working with young people has been, is that young people are always looking for authenticity. Right, you know what I'm saying? Like they wanna do what's, they're keeping it real. Like that is real for them. They wanna keep keep it real. They want to align with their identity, what they, and so if you look at young black kids, you know, with, you know, outside, you know, with they, they go, I don't do that. You know, that's what they do. I'm, I'm aligning with what

blackness is, right? I'm aligning with those things that validate that identity that I have for myself. Right. And so that is, that's part of it. And their parents are the first generation of people disconnected from outdoors. Right. So, so they don't do it either. And, and if your parent isn't taking you, that's the, but, but as far as even the black people don't camp thing, what's interesting is simultaneously, and there's, and there's documentation for that here as black people did camp. Like if you look at the 60s, 70s, even the 80s, there were, and there's hardly any black people here.

That's one thing. Minneapolis is not like, you know, it's definitely in DC. Might not even be Denver, I don't know. But I'm just saying that I think that there are, there is documentation of lakefront properties that were actually populated by all black families from the Twin Cities, right?

Lake Adney is what it's called. That literally, and it's in the Minnesota, and I know these families of those families who summered at Lake Adney, right? Right, wow. And they did that. I mean, so- It's kind of a, it's similar to the history of Manhattan Beach and what's going on there

in Los Angeles right now with the reparations. That's exactly, that's amazing story, right? But even in Martha's Vineyards, there's a legacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's still a Black Haven if you got the cash. If you got the cash. But the idea of a Black haven at Martha's Vineyard in 1940, 1950, like people don't know.

You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. Even in the Poconos. They now know because Obama goes there or whatever. That's right. But they think it's because of money. They don't know that there's actually a long legacy of that happening.

And there were actually state parks for black people in Georgia. Wow. Until desegregation. I mean, so that's what I'm saying. Segregated black park. Segregated state park outside Atlanta, near Stone Mountain. Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean?

So this is like, so that kind mean, you know what I mean? So, so, so this is like, so that kind of is, that's what I mean. You know, is it black people? No, black people did do that. Matter of fact, there's a, there's a legacy of black people being deeply engaged in those activities, you know, up until this kind of new urban focus in terms of what it means. And, and, you know, the part about that too, that I would say that is interesting is that there's always been parallel universes for black America. Like that's the way I remember it too,

is you think about, and professionally, if you think there's the Journalist Association, there's the Black Journalist Association. There's the American Bar Association, National Bar Association. So there's this way where black life in some way

guarded emulated white life, only black. Yeah, well, the marginalization forces that impulse to create their own communities. That's exactly right. And so we had these parallel universes of all these different things going on all the time. It's always been that way. So there's always been a black outdoor movement.

Even now, there's a black RVers. Like that's how, no, right now, go Google it, black RVers. It's a real thing of black people that RV that connect to each other and get out. Well, there's also all these cool kind of black communities about the outdoors, like nonprofits or community-based organizations that are cropping up like Outdoor Afro and Diversify Outdoors

and Melanin Base Camp, like, you know. So that's happening in no small part, I would imagine by the work that you're doing to try to create advocacy, but so much of it, it would seem, you know, social media kind of has its pluses and minuses, but the way I see it, I'm interested in what you think about this, is that hip hop culture predominates

as the largest cultural force in America or perhaps across the world. And the influence of that on young people is beyond profound, right? But at the same time, you do have amazing black voices that are in the outdoor space who are out there killing it and creating a different and new type of role model for the young black person to model themselves after.

And I'm not casting aspersions on hip hop. I'm just saying they're different things. I think that the thing about hip hop, two things about hip hop. Hip hop ultimately became this actual very shared experience for our black youth and white youth. That's one of the things I think that is a shared kind of interesting experience for them. Because aesthetically, I feel like compared to when I was a kid, I feel like you can no longer turn radio stations and go, who's listening? Because you could do that for a very long time.

You knew the audience always, but you can't do that as easily. You could not see a young person's clothes and go, are they black or white? So the style is very similar. There's a much more shared social reality that our young people have. And hip hop is part of that, right? It's a huge part of that. That's what I'm saying, right? So hip hop, the impact in that regard is really interesting.

The other thing that hip hop did was teach people the idea that I can virtually integrate my own money, right? I can be an artist. I can be the producer. I can be the label. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna distribute this own money, right? I mean, as much as I can be an artist, I can be the producer, I can be the label. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna distribute this shit myself, right? Own the vertical integration of everything that I do.

Everything, right? So the young people now go, I can be a corporation tomorrow. You know, there's a piece of that that is really interestingly different. I think if you talk to black America and even adults that are over 45, you know, they have a much more traditional trajectory of terms of how they would get to

success, right? Go to college. Like what are the pathways? Go to college, get the right degree, get in corporate America. You do this ascension, right? A very, which is all about fitting in or like doing as you're told or checking boxes. Assimilation was a fundamental strategy until hip hop. And so not only did hip hop go against that, then the internet came along and allowed them to actually have the tool to do it themselves. And it just really changed the way that they saw the world and kind of their identity. So I think hip hop owes that. I think the outdoor movement, you know, fueled by young people, that the thing that they decided to do,

and I do know the young people, and I know Ru, Map, at Outdoor Afro. I mean, I know the people at Diversify Outdoors. I mean, these are people I know, but I'm going to say that I think they were more innovative in some regards than I was, right? Because I do think they're the new guard. And I think that they focused their energies on changing the narrative.

Like, they were literally like, yes, we do. Like, that should be the website. Yes, black people do. Because that was kind of their, you know, we do climb. You know, oh, no, we do do this. We do do that. And they then challenged the system against the fact that they had to assimilate, right?

You know, I mean, I think I've evolved because when I first started doing this movement, I just was trying to get black folks on bikes, right? It was just, but you know what? They were black people that looked like the white people in spandex. Like that was, you know what I mean? Right, and right, I mean, that was,

and so, but what evolved for me over time was that that wasn't really the solution. And so I've changed my strategies and sound. I'm much more aligned with them. And then the, the organization that you didn't mention that you probably isn't there. The idea of the global majority, that organization is really interesting because they're making the claim that if there's solidarity past color and we look at the idea of not white and the global majority, then actually we are a majority. And if we're a global majority, probably we may be a majority outside, right? Just in terms of if we – so I think there – so then that comes along and really changes things. And I think that's really, even for me, in terms of the idea of what we're doing. And so that's interesting to say that you're naming those names.

So we used to be Major Taylor Bicycling Club in Minnesota. We've done all these different. So the current movement that we're using here in the Twin Cities and we're growing is called Melanin in Motion. And what's been deep is the response from the community of people who said, I'm down with that. Like, I think there was, and you know how, and if you're an outdoors person, you know how you talk to your friends and tell them,

and you say, you should go biking with me. And they go, okay, yeah, I'll go biking. But in their mind, what they're really saying, I am not going biking with that dude. He's gonna hurt me. I am not gonna get dropped. I'm not gonna have the wrong bike, I am not going biking with that dude. He's gonna hurt me. I am not gonna get dropped. I'm not gonna have the wrong bike. I'm not gonna have the wrong clothes.

Well, cycling's full of all that nonsense. It is. But that's what they're saying. Well, the same thing with outdoors. And so once we took it out of like, it's no, all we're doing is moving. We are a melanated community getting together. We're gonna move somehow.

It might be snowboarding. It might be cross-country skiing. It might be biking. It might be hiking. It might be snowshoeing. And there's no judgment. So just by shifting that, all of a sudden people said, I'll try that. It was really amazing.

Or even in terms of the bike work. As I've been doing bike work for a long time, about four years ago, I decided I wasn't going to work with any bike organizations. So we were going to do community-based bike rides, giveaway bikes, but we weren't going to partner with any bike organizations. Because if you partner with bike organizations, you know what it becomes about? About the bike. The bike, yeah. It becomes about the bike, right? And then they, you know, then they helmet shame you and then you get the unintentional bike shaming. We started partnering with arts organizations and it changed everything.

I mean, so that was like, and it was just, arts organizations are about the experience, right? So now we're managing people's emotional experience. And that was like the light bulb. I said, oh, we're using a bike, but what we're really doing is creating new positive emotional connections for people to disrupt what they already know.

Right. Because that's what they're doing, right? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, the more I think about it, the biggest barrier is the welcome mat. You know what I mean? Because especially in the context of cycling, because there's so much gear

and anybody who goes into a bike shop, like a pro bike shop, I mean, because especially in the context of cycling, because there's so much gear and, you know, anybody who goes into a bike shop, like a pro bike shop, you feel insecure because you don't know what the right question to ask is. And you see all this fancy stuff and everybody's speaking a language you don't quite understand, but making people feel comfortable

that this is accessible to them. That's right. All that other stuff comes later, but it's getting them in the door. Dude, you hit the nail on the head. And I really, the way you characterize it, when you talked about the feeling of insecurity, what happens-

I say that as like a, you know, like a well-to-do white dude, you know, who has a lot of miles, you know, under my belt. And when I go to a bike shop, I still kind of feel that way. But you saying that out loud changes everything. You see what I'm saying? And then in terms of that, when you say that, what I have to actually do is kind of feel that way. But you saying that out loud changes everything. You see what I'm saying in terms of that? When you say that what I have to actually do is kind of like what I was saying earlier.

How do we see the person? How do we see the community? Do I see that person as they just don't have knowledge? Or do I go, you know what? That person is coming and they're questioning themselves. They're feeling a little insecure. They don't have the confidence here that they have in their normal life. So let me manage that. And if you think that's what's going on, you come up with different strategies, right?

If you think they're unknowledgeable, what do you do? You spew knowledge, information, statistics. But if you go, no, they're actually having this emotional insecurity, this lack of confidence. They want to, you know what I'm saying? Then you go, no, they're actually having this emotional insecurity, this lack of confidence. They want to, you know what I'm saying? Then you go, well, what do I have to do to handle that? And that's a whole different set of strategies, a whole different set of strategies. And then you can talk about information. If you handle that, that part of it, that makes all the difference. And that's what I'm saying.

It's like that was the epiphany about working in schools and working with families. Like that, how I view what the challenge is, is totally shifted. So now I can actually address the challenge. I can really put my energy towards that emotional experience that we're having. And, and I think you and I would agree that a person, the emotional experience they have is more real than what's real. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. How did you get into all this? How did you get into all this?

You know, I literally, I came here to go to college. My 18-year-old ego made me want to play football at the University of Minnesota instead of the Rippon College or whatever. You know, I had a lot of offers to small schools and very few to big schools. But like I said, my 18-year-old ego was like, no, dude, Big Ten. And so I came to University of Minnesota to big schools. But like I said, my 18 year old ego was like, no, dude, big 10. And so I came to University of Minnesota to play football. And I learned something really quickly in college. Everybody's big, everybody's fast, right? In high school, speed kills, right? And in college, speed can still get killed, right?

It was like, everybody was big and fast. And I was majoring in engineering and it was killing me. And I was on the, I was on the scout team. You know what I mean? You know, where you're running other people's planes. But you got a scholarship so you could come here. So I could come here and I, but I, but I quit, but I got an engineering scholarship, which is even weirder, right? So I got an academic scholarship. So I stayed and, but I quit playing football. And as soon as I quit playing football, I got fat. And so I joined a gym off campus that was downtown and parking was crazy. So I started biking to the gym. And one day I didn't stop. And I just started enjoying it. So

I started biking. And that competitive part of me made me do, I wanted a different bike and different gear. And then I did a race, I wanted a different bike and different gear. And then I did a race. And I met a friend, Louie Moore, who was older than me, who became a partner in crime for, you know, big adventures. You know, single day, 225 mile races. We did a five day challenge from Denver. We rode from Denver to Minneapolis in five days. We, you know, our goal at that point was race across America or something.

But as we started doing it, I just realized there weren't any black people out there. We, you know, our goal at that point was race across America or something. But as we started doing it, I just realized there weren't any black people out there. And so we helped a group of black women prepare for the AIDS ride from Minneapolis, Chicago. And I just was like, this is, that was more exciting than biking. And so that I, we started the Major Taylor Bicycling Club in Minnesota.

Yeah, so explain who Major Taylor was. So yeah, Major Taylor was the first American born black champion in any sport in 1889 in cycling. And he was- So crazy. Yeah, and just, he was an amazing athlete. I mean, just really his story is, he was an amazing athlete. I mean, just really his story is, he was an amazing athlete at a time when bicycling was the greatest sport in the world.

And at a time when racism was at its worst, it was just post Jim Crow. And he, and one of the elements of his story that I really think is beneficial is that he partnered with a man from Indiana named Bertie Munger. Bertie Munger was an older, white, big wheel racer who partnered with Major Taylor in Indianapolis and ultimately moved to Worcester, Massachusetts to open a bike business. But I think many people talk about Major Taylor's challenges and his triumphs, and he was an amazing athlete and there's lots there. I think the fact that

they were able to ally across race in 1889. And he did his first race, his first professional race under 16. Wow. What were they racing back then? So they were racing road bikes. And really, the real exciting part of what they did was they were doing velodrome racing. So in Madison Square Garden, Madison Square Garden was built, the version in 1889 that was built was a velodrome. Get out. And they had 25,000 people watching bike races

in New York in the Velodrome. That is a history I've never heard. Oh, it is unbelievable how big it was. And his debut race when he became a sensation was in New York at Madison Square Garden in 1887. And it was a Velodrome. It was a six-day. So they talk about the six day races. It was six days of nonstop racing. Nonstop, just going around?

Six days, nine days. You could stop, but the goal was to, I mean, it's just- Whoever got the most accumulated miles over six days. The most accumulated miles in six days. On a track. On a track. And he finished at- In Madison Square Garden. In Madison Square Garden. He finished at 2,300 miles. I mean, it's- Wow.

It's just an unbelievable accomplishment. But you have to remember, in the turn of the century, the bicycle was the pinnacle of technological achievement. Like we don't really think about that in a way. And what you said earlier about it being a symbol of freedom, it actually was a symbol of freedom for women, for black people. It was really, the automobile was undependable and horses were slow. And, you know, so the bicycle represented something significantly different.

And Major Taylor and Bertie Munger understood that. Like I really, I believe that. And I think that is why he, for me really, and I discovered his book accidentally in the basement of a bike shop that I was working in. And he was just a forgotten hero. He's completely forgotten. I mean, it's like a movie.

Yeah, and still we have not made a good Major Taylor movie. Yeah, I mean, I talked a little bit about him with, do you know who Justin Williams is? Absolutely. Yeah, so Justin's been on the show and what he's doing in LA with Legion is like unbelievable. Right. Yeah, he's really like moving the needle with this.

Don't you think Justin Williams is what you talked about earlier in terms of the hip hop community? Oh yeah. Right? He's right at the cross section of those two worlds and he's able to bring that sensibility into, not just his racing and being an elite cyclist, but into this idea of owning outdoor spaces.

That's right. And I'm telling you, and I know Justin, actually, I have a great picture of him with my son and my son race bikes too in that picture. And it was such an amazing picture because he was probably 13. And this was three years ago here, he was in town for a race.

And I've talked with him a lot because I also know Rahsaan Bahati really well. And just, but Justin is what you were describing. He is that young black American hip hop generation who said, I can really integrate myself. But I don't, you know, he can be racing here. And in that transgressive way of not trying to assimilate, he's like, I'm starting my own team.

I'm not going to Europe. I'm not doing that. I like the fixie culture. I think we can do something here in the United States and get people excited about the kind of bike racing that I excel at, which is criteriums. That's what I'm saying. He represents that sensibility and that fearlessness

and his understanding of where the money flows, how I can do it, how do I build the brand and the value of it, owning my own brand. Like that's really powerful. And bringing that hip hop sensibility into the garments, right? Like creating a line that is aspirational for a young kid who sees that.

Cause it's freaking dope and you can't buy it unless you're on the team. So he creates that, like, it's that supreme model of like, you can't get it, man. There's, you know, there's high demand and low supply. And I, and that's what I mean, I think is brilliant. And I, like, I'm, I'm working really hard to try to get him to come to Minneapolis this summer. So if you're listening, Justin, I'm going to keep calling, but, but no, but I really, I really mean that. I think that is a great example. And I think even fixie culture is another one of those weird stories that we don't really realize that the idea of fixie culture actually also has black roots. And it has its black roots in the Caribbean community

of New York. Because when the Caribbeans moved here to New York, the only bike they knew was fixies. So fixie culture and Europeans said, that's what's bike racing for Europeans. Three spoke wheels on them. That's exactly right. And like making them all crazy colors and all that kind of stuff. And that drove all Fixie culture in the United States

was really started by the Caribbeans in New York. Yeah, the true history versus the sort of conventional narrative. It's fascinating. Another example of that is, it's had Salama Masakela on the show. And he sent me his Afro surf book. Do you have this book?

Yeah. It's unbelievable. And this complete revisionist history of where surfing comes from and how deeply embedded it is in, you know, black cultures across the world. Tracing back to prior to what we initially believed began in Hawaii.

Right, and see, that's what I meant about changing the narrative. Like that's like really a fundamental idea that the instincts of this current group is changing the narrative. So you don't have imposter syndrome when you show up, you know what I mean? Or you don't question youroster syndrome when you show up. You know what I mean? Or you don't question your own integrity,

your own authenticity. You're like that, cause that matters to people. There's a legacy here. And you own, you're a part of that legacy. You're good doing that. And I think that's really, and you know what's interesting?

I know Hugh, cause my son was a snowboarder and he was a competitive snowboarder. He was ranked 12th in the country last year. And this year he got an invitation to travel with the US Olympic team during COVID. And he turned it down. What? I don't know.

And it really, it was about culture, right? He was in Park City last year. He was in Vail last summer with the team and got a chance to be with them. And it's just, it know, it was really interesting that he just said, that's not me. Like, that's not, those are, that's not really my thing. That's a Justin Williams move.

And I'm telling you, see, and I'm telling you at the time, I was like, dude, really? You're saying, I didn't get it. But then I had to dig deeply and think about his decision. And at the same time, another young man, Brian Rice, I don't know if you've seen him. Brian Rice, 16 year old from Detroit, who just is going to worlds. He qualified for world championships. And they were partners in crime. You can see them on Instagram together. They

trained last summer together. It's happening. I mean, and that's what I mean. And so I was on a call with Salima and Brian and my son and those other people because Salima also sees the fact that he actually is a pioneer and also the narrative that all snowboarders don't compete. You can create the culture, right? From that's maybe a more advantageous point for creating culture where he is, right?

Right, because he was never competitive. That's right. He's an ambassador. That's exactly right. And he talks about his legacy of getting there through skateboarding, through surfing, right? And board culture, boarders, the culture of snowboarders is really similar, right? I mean, it's just a really interesting culture of that anyway. Yeah. And so I think, you know, and we've been steeped in it. So I think that's the other thing that I've really had the fortune to be on the inside of that community, see the good, the bad and the ugly, you know, in terms of how it works, but ultimately snowboarding culture is,

you know, is, and matter of fact, I did an article where I believe snowboarding is the culture that can integrate winter sports. Yeah. I mean, that's- Well, if there's one sport that can, it's that, but the difference between snowboarding and surfing, yes, they're both board cultures, but surfing just by virtue of geography. That's right.

You have to go to these exotic places where it's an indigenous, you know, part, a way of life. Right? So you're exposed to all these different types of people, whereas snowboarding is really kind of like a white thing. Well, and so even there, you know, it's a white thing because of the- Because of geography. Because of geography, right.

And actually, and how can we predict disparities? Geography. I mean, that's like part of, you know, that's what's so deep. That's exactly right. And that's what I was saying, you know, to these guys. And so actually, you know, even that is an effort we're working on. Like we're positing to, and Burton Snowboard is actually a really cool partner because they're being thoughtful about this.

As we're saying, what we need to do is create small snowboard hills in the community. And snowboarding is unique in that you don't need a lot of elevation to build a really cool snowboard park. So what we're trying to do, we are experimenting here in Minneapolis, and we want to do more locations. Like skate parks, sort of. Yeah, like a skate park, a skate park with snow. But it's only, I mean, it's 150 feet of elevation with a skate park on it

where you teach, right? You help people have positive emotional connections, right? You help them figure out gear and then you make it progressive. So the progressive experience starts five, 10 minutes from home, then 30 minutes to an hour from home. Then you go 13 hours to Colorado. And then all of a sudden it all makes sense. So what we're trying to do is put people through experiences to build the value of what we're talking about

before you try to do this big leap, right? Yeah, but this city is flat. You know, we got valleys. That's one thing I noticed. No, we got valleys. But not in the city city. No, in the city city. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying.

If we need 150, 200 feet of elevation, and that's what, the reason skateboarders coming out of Minnesota are really good is because they're doing hot laps on a small amount of elevation. So they're not doing- So they're getting way more runs.

Way more runs. They're getting way more runs in in the same amount of time. So all you need is 150 foot rope tow, right? And you put in obstacles, you can build jumps, you can work on everything and you can do it in an elevation where you get more runs in. And that's what I'm saying.

So we, these flatlander locations actually could be great entrees in the snowboard. That's interesting. It's the same thing in Chicago, same thing in Detroit, same every, right? All these flatlander places have these small valleys where we could actually, and they're close to the city,

right? Because all the old industry happened close to the rivers, which is in the center of the cities. So we've got, so we've got a really an interesting foundation for what could we do to make snowboarding, right? Something is cheap and affordable, close to home. Cause right, cause now we don't have,

now you don't need a hundred dollar lift ticket. You do a $10 lift ticket. Yeah, there's no chairlift involved. There's no chairlift involved. That's what I'm, right? So this is where again, now, but back to my point. So now we're thinking, what was the challenge, right? Once we define a different challenge,

we can kind of come up with different solutions. And I think that we spiral that up and all the outdoor stuff is like that. You probably know Dan Buettner, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Dan's a friend, Minneapolis native. Oh, he'd be mad at you, cause he's a St. Paul. Oh, is he, it's St. Paul, yeah.

Oh yeah, dude, don't. Sorry, Dan. That's all right. He emailed me yesterday. But one of the things he always talks about is how this region is exceptional in terms of creating an environment that's conducive to a healthy lifestyle. And where I'm going with this is,

rather than trying to convince people they need to go outside or give them a battery of reasons, you have to create an environment that kind of marshals people in that direction. So the idea of creating that kind of snowboarding experience that is centrally located, accessible, urban, not intimidating, has a good welcome mat is part of that thinking, that philosophy, right?

That's exactly right. But this area is well-known for all of its biking lanes and everything that they've done to facilitate that. So how does that work? Like that's sort of the conventional wisdom, but how does that work in terms of accessibility for the underserved communities and the underprivileged and the black and people of color.

Well, so, and I really love the way you kind of package that up because what I think is, is that what you're saying is absolutely right. The city and the way Africa is, the city and the region makes significant investments in public green space, active living, bike lanes. I mean, you travel, we have a,

literally there's a belief that there's a park within one mile of every home in the Twin Cities. And the goal, the commitment is there will be a bike lane within one mile of every front door in the Twin Cities. So that's a municipal commitment. Because we are a city making that commitment, we have an amazing park system, which is also funded by taxes.

Our regional, and I'm actually a commissioner on our regional authority around parks. And so I'm pushing this. We therefore have a responsibility to do whatever it takes to make sure that these amenities are equitably participated in by all of our communities. So that's the foundation. We have a responsibility for that. Therefore, the programming that we do has to enlist the things we've been talking about. It has to solve the obstacle of a bike. It has to solve the obstacle of the skills needed to be successful at it. It has to solve the obstacle of the historical reality that we have created in our public spaces that says black people don't belong here, right? The last thing we have to solve is the culture that says, whoever's moving the fastest with the most momentum

and the most skill has the most right. I mean, that is the last part that really, because that's what happens, right? People make up their mind, they get out there and then they get screamed at by somebody going faster than them, right? And it trickles down. It's the roadie against the guy who's on a city bike,

and it's a city bike against a kid on a bike, and it's the pecking order. And then it's that kid against a walker and a woman with a stroller. You know what I mean? And so that culture is what flows downhill. And so those are the things that as a municipality, as a region, as a city committed to those things, we have to handle that too. And we can do that. And I tell you what, the cost of giving every kid in the Minneapolis public school system

a bike in third grade, what would that take? What would that, that's not even- I mean, it's a blip on the radar of a city budget. That's exactly right. And if we did that, now that's equity. We're redistributing resources, right, in a real way to serve the needs of people. Those are big ideas. And you know, it's funny you talk about Dan Buettner, and I'm a fan of his work.

And one of the biggest reasons I'm a fan of his work is because what he really points out in Blue Zones and continues to point out in this work is that the fundamental of active living is baked into the cultural reality of a people, right? So when he talked about those Sardinian, you know, fishermen and their walk to the thing and then having wine and, you know, the Okinawan housewives, you know, the Seventh-day Adventist, you know, community and that really what's the ultimate measure of health is actually connectedness. Like that's, I mean, the ultimate measure of health? It's actually connectedness. Like that's, I mean, the ultimate measure of health is actually connectedness. So if we make the goal of all of our active living activities, building community, we win. And what, rather than fitness, rather than this. So that's another shift in terms of my own growth is that that's the ultimate goal of

everything I do in terms of outdoors. Right. Because if you achieve that, if you create that level of deep connectivity and community, everything else flows from that. There you go. That's exactly right. And I'm just, that is, again, it just sounds too simple, right? Right. But ultimately, that's a huge shift for us. But ultimately that's a huge shift for us as outdoor advocates, is a huge shift for us as active living advocates, even people who are focused on food as medicine. And that really, if you build community

around whatever that thing is, if you make the result of that experience, building community, you win. And then it will perpetuate, right? It'll become self-validating. Yeah, the losing battle is trying to get people interested in something that feels like an obligation or a burden or a situation in which they have to go out of their way

or inconvenience themselves to accomplish it. And that's what I really, I mean, that was like from, I mean, there's lots of takeaways from Blue Zones, but I think one of the biggest takeaways for me personally was, you know, because I talk about the Okinawan housewives all the time. It's the fact that sitting in a chair is killing us, right? And even that, you know, simple idea versus sitting on the floor and getting up and sitting down and getting up and sitting down and getting up. And that idea of how do you integrate movement into your life is really a very,

rather than that's why it's melanin in motion and not melanin on bikes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Or melanin on a run. Right, right, yeah, yeah. You know? We went out to ride bikes the other night. What's the ride share here?

It's called like nice bike. Nice ride. Nice ride, yeah. And it wouldn't let us. It was like, we tried like four different credit cards, a whole bunch of us trying to rent bikes. And I think it was because of what's going on here. Like they just locked it down. And they don't want people riding bikes around.

And you know what else? They might be doing it for out of town credit cards. Maybe. They don't want out ofof-towners riding, taking nice rides. Well, because they're, you know, vandalism, people get whatever it is. It might be more of that than anything.

And that's interesting. I'm going to check that now. But even, you know, even that is Lyft. You know that, right? Yeah, I know. Right. So what I will say is Lyft has really done an interesting job here of coming in

and connecting to community advocates around promoting their programming. So I think they've actually done an interesting job of that. But Nice Ride is one of those efforts that really, it was a problem when we first opened it. and worked with them and created an equity initiative to specifically focus on communities of color and low to moderate income communities with pricing, with introduction, with what you, you know, the welcome mat. I mean, we created a series of rides and activities

were all about connectedness and that really worked. And that ultimately turned into our slow roll movement. You know, that really, that whole thing kind of came over. The slow roll being like the group participatory rides that you guys organize. Yeah. Well, one thing about Nice Ride, you gotta fix that user interface, man.

It makes you click through like, you know, 20 pages of disclaimers and stuff like that. I'm like, that's a barrier. Yeah, no, I think that that was baked into the very first versions of it because of it was sponsored too. So like we had healthcare organizations as the key sponsors and so I, and the city. And so I think, you know, you're absolutely right about that. Yeah. They look like nice bikes though. Yeah. And the new ones are electric. In the scheme of like city,

you know, kind of rental bikes. Yeah. No, it's a, it's a good system and they've always upgraded the fleet and they make sense here because our GI, our footprint is so small. Right. You know, kind of rental bikes. Yeah, no, it's a good system and they've always upgraded the fleet and they make sense here because our footprint is so small. Right. You know, three miles in any direction and you have covered major territory in Minneapolis. It's been interesting to see

how various cities have responded to COVID. And, you know, I often look at Manhattan and you see those images of the streets closed and everybody's just walking and they're riding bikes. And I'm like, here's the one moment in a lifetime where you could like change everything and just say no more residential vehicles in Manhattan,

you know, just delivery trucks and maybe some, you know, ride shares or whatever. But let's close off a bunch of these thoroughfares and adopt a more European blue zones model because people seem to be enjoying it. And the cafes are popping up on the street with the outdoor eating and all of that. And it felt like an opportunity to really remodel

and reimagine the urban landscape. But I don't think it's, I don't know how many places really jumped on that. Well, obviously there's, there's so many, I mean, it's such a difficult thing to accomplish, but it just felt like an opportunity that I wish had been kind of capitalized on a little bit more. Well, you know, what's happening now is that, you know, that this is our, this is our year to capitalize on it, right? Last year's budget was set when, when the pandemic said, you know, the programming was set. So I'm waiting to see what happens this season. So I, I, I'm, I am, I'm actually more hopeful because we're still in the pandemic in the spring, but I, but I think that it's those habits.

Now the work of advocates is not getting people on bikes, it's keeping people on bikes, right? So that's the work this year. And so I think there's, again, that's where we have to make a shift in terms of what we're doing. I do, I mean, I actually laugh because I don't know if you laugh, but if someone told you all you needed to do to get people on bikes was start a global pandemic, would you have done it? You know what I mean? Most bike advocates. Think about that. But you know what I mean? Most bike advocates- You think about that. You think about it, but you know what I mean? But that was kind of what happened. But even think

about the number of cities that actually closed streets. They never thought, they closed streets to traffic and made them available for people to walk on. Here in the Twin Cities, we have what we call the Grand Rounds that wrap around the chain of lakes we have here and over to the Mississippi River. And they closed them last year to traffic, totally closed them to traffic, and they were packed. So I think that one, two things happened. The city did it and nobody lost their mind and people showed up. And the research we have initially says that communities of color showed up in heightened numbers compared to what we've done historically. Women showed up in higher numbers than what they have historically, right?

I mean, children, people with children. So we actually kind of proved the point that we were going, well, what would it take to do that? And that's what it took. And so, again, once those people were out, we decided, okay, we're going to handle those introductory experiences, right? And so that became the goal of our efforts last summer, was those introductory experiences, even flowing from the bikes for essential workers was, well, you got a new bike now, what's the first thing you should know? And taking people in parking lots. I mean, Rich, you know what I mean? Like taking adults and saying, okay,

these are the handlebars. So when you're waiting for a thing, this is what you do. You put your pedal here and put your foot on it and you're not rolling yet. But now, but squeeze your brakes when you're sitting still on your bike because that keeps it from rolling. Lean your bike over to you when you step over it instead of throwing it through. Like that's just so rudimentary, right? Lean your bike over to you instead of throwing your leg over the that's just so rudimentary, right? Lean your bike over to you instead of throwing your leg over the seat. And you, everybody tries to do that. They all get a bike

and they try to throw their leg over the seat. I'm like, dude, you're 40, your flexibility is done. Right. Right. But instead of saying that, I say, let me make that easy, lean your bike over and step over it. Well, the closing of the streets and all the people outpouring into them,

I mean, that's the community, like that's the breeding ground for the community. So the question then becomes, can you make that stick? That's right. Everybody's so intent on like getting back to normal or some version of the way things used to be and were myopic to the opportunity that we're being presented with.

Yeah, I agree. And I think, but even in, you know, with that, like, so that's, again, when we say, well, what is our work? Our work, you know, kind of related to the trial is to help people visualize a future that's different. Like it isn't getting back to normal. Like, I think that's really important what you said. That is, you know, we want to get back to freedom. What we perceive as freedom, that's really more. What is it you want to get back to? But the number of people that have had more time with their kids this year than they ever have before and appreciate them differently is tremendous. They may never go back to work the same way they went back to work, right? to work, right? So it is this thing where we have to help people focus on the realization of these other positive benefits and connect the emotional outcome of those benefits to them if we want them

to stick. And that's, again, that's not the American way. We're always selling. All the marketers have kind of found their way to make COVID-19 a springboard to buy more stuff. You know what I mean? And so I think, again, for all the advocates out there, our work this year is to identify everybody who got a bike and help them have a positive experience this summer. Help them have an expansive, progressive, growth-oriented experience with that bike they purchased. And everybody who purchased the bike,

because they're already sold out this year. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get bikes. You can't get bikes in April. You know, April 15th, you can't get a bike, because they're already sold out this year. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get bikes. You can't get bikes in April. You know, April 15th, you can't get a bike. How much of that is because of the supply chain overseas in Asia? And how much of that is they're just not set up

to build enough bikes to meet the demand? Well, you know, I think it's both, right? The supply chain got shut down last year a little bit and that affected things, but they've ramped up. But the bike shops are selling everything they have, everything they can get. And people want a bike. I mean, I just think that some people want a bike.

And even some of the bike shops that I frequently go to, I've gone to them and said, dude, let us lead a community ride for all the new people who bought a bike. Like they have to be in've gone to them and said, you know, do let us lead a community ride for all the new people who bought a bike. Like, you know, that kind of like, like they have to be in the programming business too. See, so that, that's what, right.

You know what I'm saying? Like do the bike shops consider themselves in the business of offering programming? They don't. They don't. They don't. And that's another, you know, sort of missed opportunity. I mean, we've seen the, you know, explosion of Peloton,

which is a digital version of that. And there are exceptions. There are extraordinary bike shops that do a great job with that. And you see what Justin is doing with Rafa, his sponsor, like he's always dropping by the shop and they got coffee and, you know, like he's trying to create that. And also kind of rewrite the Rafa story

because it's such a, you know, sort of gentleman's, you know, super expensive brand. And I think a lot of bike shops took stabs at that earlier on, but couldn't get enough traction. But I feel like there is an opportunity because people wanna be with each other. And you can, for the most part, you know, safely ride with other people right now in the outdoors.

And we need more of that. Yeah. And I just say to everybody, nature is the only safe space, right? So whatever gets you in nature is worth the effort. And it literally is whatever gets you in nature, whatever gets you outdoors moving is absolutely worth it. And again, what you're describing with Justin, with Rafa, all of them, what's the ultimate goal of those

activities is building community. And I think, again, that's where I go, are the bike shops in the programming business? If they think their job is building community, it is, right? That's where I go, are the bike shops in the programming business? If they think their job is building community, it is. That's really the way we have to approach this. It's in their economic self-interest anyway, because it breeds loyalty to the brand. That's right. And the nature of the way people work is progression. So they'll be buying a more expensive bike next time.

If you get them going, they- There's no end to the amount of money that gets spent ultimately over the course of their lifetime. That's right. If you hook them. That's exactly right. You hook them on the experiences.

And I think that is really, I mean, that's what I mean. That's what I see with people in terms of just generally how we get people to stick with this. That's how we get people to stick with this. That's how we get people to stick with this. We actually do have to have them have these new emotional experiences, right?

They have to have self-discovery, they build community, they create some new memories. And I think people are gonna be hooked. And so again, that's what we advocates have to shift our work now. Right. So you're, what are you like 62, 61?

62. You are fit. You look like, I mean, you're not a day over 35, it's crazy. And your Twitter handle is like, I am anti-aging or something like that, right? You are aging in reverse. So what's the daily routine look like for you? You know, my workout is really compact.

I try to do a 75 minute workout, you know, and that's my goal, 75 minutes. You know, in the summer, I'll bike a lot more, you know, I'll get out and biking. But the routine is really kind of built around, I try to start the day with a 75-minute workout that's a mixture of cardio and some kind of strength training. And during COVID, I never thought I'd work out indoors. But what I really discovered in the last really 12, 15 months is kettlebell.

And I found a really good kettlebell kind of program introduction to it here locally. And it just really has been a monumental success in terms of me sticking with my program and doing it at home. You don't need like some full gym. No, you really don't. And the key is like, what's the minimum thing you can, like you always have to be planning for the minimum thing you can do. So then you have no excuse to skip it, right? And that's a strategy that I started about five years ago. You know, just like, what's the minimum,

like what's the thing that I always can do? And that's 75 minutes wound up being that thing, right? Is that I can, I never have an excuse to skip a 75 minute workout. Right, and peppered in there, all kinds of different skiing and boarding. Right, and then staying active. Camping and biking and all the kind of stuff

that you and your family does. Yeah, and I think that has been, that's the other thing I kind of figure out too is that you don't use those activities for training. You train for those activities. Like, and especially as you get older, that's really important to make that clear delineation between those two activities, you know?

Meaning what? Meaning that you can't use snowboard for training. Yeah. You have to train for snowboarding. Yeah. Right? Yeah, especially as you get older. That's right. You know, I'm 54 now,

and I've really had to confront that in a way that I've never had to before. That's right. And the sooner you learn that the better. So I love talking to 35 year old dudes, cause you're still invincible at 35. Like you still remember your best day. And you kind of base everything on that.

But I think that's really what I've found. And snowboarding is a great example. This year, and this isn't that, don't snowboard with 13-year-olds. So this year, I actually snowboarded with some 13-year-olds and decided I was hanging with them. We were just talking. And they've only been snowboarding a year, right? So we're doing these rollers.

I don't know what I did. I went over this one roller and came down and fell right on my chest. And I'm going, my ribs hurt. Yeah. And hurt ribs hurt. I just want you to know that. I just like, cause you use them for breathing and it's like, man, that was rough.

You don't bounce back as quick. You don't bounce back as quick. So yeah, don't hang on to 13 year olds. That's dangerous for you. All right, man. Well, last thing and then I'll let you go. I wanna leave people with, you know, really your philosophy of outdoor space

and really broadening access to it for all different types of people, particularly people who have lacked that kind of connection in their lives. So what can you kind of take us out with on that subject? You know what? I really believe that outdoors, nature, and adventure, like kind of those activities are the best place for us to actually grow and experience this thing around social, emotional learning. Like I think when we really talk about the outcomes of

what we do, then when we talk about sport, I think sports as we know it has convinced us that there's this petri dish for, you know, human development, right? And youth development. And I say not unless you're intentional, but something about outdoors is always about personal best. It's always about situational awareness, right? It's always about, you know, they're always about skills development. So the best athlete won't always be the best climber, right? It's the person who masters the skills. The best skier will not be the best athlete. It'll be the person that focuses on mastering the skills, right?

So they're progressive skill-based. They create opportunities for us to have self-discovery. You know, they're personal best oriented. Again, this idea of controlling yourself in an environment that you have no control over. That's the stuff that life is made of. And I actually think that outdoors and nature offer that opportunity to everybody who shows up. Everybody who shows up can have that experience outdoors. And for communities of color, for marginalized community, what I know is that those experiences are the ones that build your humanity, your confidence, that help you understand beyond racism's impact on you. In a simple example, and you all can go test this,

I believe that women who spend time outdoors have a much higher body concept than the average person because everything in the world wants women to hate their bodies. I think outdoors activities, hiking, biking, climbing, there are these things we do. It actually reframes your relationship to your body around its ability to do work instead of the aesthetic.

And so this balance that nature outdoors and adventure offers to the messages, you know what I mean? Is really, really seminal. And I believe that's an opportunity for everybody and for communities of color. It's an opportunity that we don't see in our arsenal. So that's my message to them is tell me about the humans you want your kids to be.

And my answer is always gonna be take them outside. Boom, beautifully put my friend. We did it, Anthony. Thank you. How do you feel? I feel good. That was good, man. That was very cool.

I appreciate all the work that you're doing. It's cool that you know a lot of the people that I admire. We just scratched the surface. So yeah, I'm sure there's many more. So I'd love to do this with you again at some point. So that was really fantastic. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thanks. Peace. Thanks for listening, plants. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast,

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Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.