The Rich Roll Podcast - Ask Me Anything: Rich Roll On Training, Racing & Service

Episode Date: October 20, 2017

Welcome to another Ask Me Anything in-between-isode edition of the podcast with yours truly. Recorded live during our Plantpower Ireland retreat this past July, this is a dynamic discussion that covers a wide-range of topics. Subjects covered include: * how my approach to training, racing and nutrition has evolved over the years; * my approach to racing Ötillö (this was recorded prior to that event); * good pain v. bad pain – i.e., distinguishing laziness from the need to rest; * my role models & influences; and * thoughts on meditation, spirituality & service. In addition, I was asked how Julie and I work together as a team — balancing our similarities and differences. Plus Julie sheds some light on her interesting backstory. I sincerely hope you enjoy the listen. Peace + Plants, Rich

Try to make the best content that you can. What is the highest caliber information that you can deliver? And I think part of that is getting clear on who your audience is. Who are you trying to impact? What is it that they need to hear from you? And how can you deliver that in the most cogent, concise, clear way that will ensure that we'll have the desired impact that you're trying to have? Hey, that's me.

And this is a special AMA, Ask Me Anything, in-between-isode of The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How are you guys doing? What's happening? How is life? Are you guys doing good? Are you okay? Thanks for dropping by. My name is Rich Roll. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. The show where I usually dig deep with all manner of pioneering paradigm breaking personalities across a wide swath of culturally pertinent themes, everything from health and wellness to entrepreneurship and simply everything in between. But this episode is a little different.

Today, I bring you a dynamic Ask Me Anything discussion with yours truly. And this was recorded live during our Plant Power Ireland retreat this past July. Because we're on the subject of Ask Me Anything, I thought I would do what I do from time to time and read a recent email that I received from a listener, the author of which I will keep anonymous. It goes like this. I'm crying as I write this. I feel like I'm dying inside and feel like an ungrateful B-I-T-C-H. I have nothing to complain about, and yet I am so unhappy. Like you, I am an attorney. I've been a litigator with the federal government for 18 years now.

It's a well-paying, flexible government job with great benefits and wonderful colleagues. So many people would love to have this job, and it has given me a lot of things, like an actual life with free time, a nice house, money for my hobbies, etc. But I effing hate it. It is sucking the joy out of my life and the life out of me. I spend all my time arguing with people every day because of the nature of litigation or dealing with petty, mundane litigation issues that have no real significance and at the end of the day don't result in any positive impact on the world. I am trying to be grateful for the job, what it provides me,

and what it allows me to provide others, like a house that my brother can also live in while he's trying to get on his feet. But I just can't seem to get my gratitude to outweigh my misery, misery that is palpable every day when I walk in the office. I don't have a spouse or partner. I have significant student loan and credit card debt, a mortgage, a car payment, a dog, et cetera. In other words, I can't just up and quit or go work at Starbucks. I am trying to figure out how I could be in a better financial position, pay off some debt and get more financial freedom so that someday maybe I could take a lower paying

job that I actually love. But that is going to take a lot of time. In the meantime, I am stuck. How do I cultivate gratitude for a job in which I am miserable? How do I just suck it up while I'm trying to figure out other alternatives? How do I stop being angry every day when I come to work and instead focus on the benefits and positives the job gives me, despite the fact that it drains rather than feeds my soul. I've been a fan a year since day one of the podcast. I have all your books and your meal planner, which is a godsend.

Thank you for adding positive love and light to my life and countless others. Thank you for that email. This is an amazing question. It's similar to so many that I receive. So many people are suffering in this way. And to echo Thoreau, which I'm fond of doing, the mass of men or women lead lives of quiet desperation. And what is considered resignation is confirmed desperation or something close to that. In other words, I feel your pain.

I think this is something common to so many people. I have been there personally, believe me. And I would say to you that there is a way out. There is always a way out. I can't say it's easy. In my case, it was very hard and it took many years to escape the clutch of a career ill-suited to my interests, my passions, and my talents. And I wish I could give you an easy answer, a listicle. But these things don't

work that way, as I think you already know. But I can offer a few thoughts, which I hope you may find helpful. First, on the subject of cultivating gratitude. Cultivating gratitude is indeed a super important practice. It's a practice that will ease your suffering while you devote yourself to finding your path forward. And a good way to begin this is to actually write out a gratitude list every morning before you start your day and also just before you go to bed. This doesn't have to be a major event, just a few minutes quickly jotting down a couple things that you have in your life that you are indeed grateful for. You already enumerated some of those in your email, your health, the fact that you do have a job that pays well, that you can pay your bills, that you have good friends, that you have food on the table,

that you have a home and you can provide shelter for your brother, whatever it is. It can be big things, but it also can be paying attention to tiny little things, gratitude for, I don't know, a comfortable pillow to lay your head on every night. And I think you get the idea. So this is a practice that you should do with pen and paper, not on the computer. It's a practice that is not going to rock your world overnight. But believe me, with consistent application, it will help you reset your perspective and help attune your mental state to focusing on the good things, the things that are working in your life, rather than always pulling focus on what is wrong, what's not working, what you want to change. And I think ancillary to this is trying to find the blessings in what you have. You don't have to, it's not that you have to write that brief or memo at work. You get to write it.

You get to go to work. So it's about adjusting your mindset away from what you're getting out of the experience, the professional experience, and reframing it in the context of service. So in other words, rather than looking at your day as a daily grind, how can you be of service? How can you be of maximum service in your job? How can you contribute? And I think the more you can get into that spirit, that frame of mind, it helps to alleviate a lot of the consternation that comes with practicing litigation. I know what it's like to be

in that conflict-rife environment all the time, and it takes its toll. So you have to protect yourself. You have to create a healthy boundary around what you let penetrate your emotional body. And I think that idea of cultivating a perspective of service can help you navigate that. The other thing I would say is that I think there's wisdom in beginning to identify ways that you can shift your professional reality and prepare yourself for a move. And in order to do this, I think downsizing is something that we should talk about. You've already developed an awareness that this is necessary because the things that we own can own us. And feeling stuck in a job is often the result of the material trappings that we have accumulated to ease the discontent that comes with a career that we don't truly enjoy.

Whether it's a car payment, a mortgage, your entertainment expenses, etc. I think it's wise to consider downgrading everything, getting out of that lease for a cheaper vehicle, even selling your house to live more modestly. And these things can feel like failure. They can feel like backward steps. But ultimately, what you're doing is investing in choice. It paves the way for freedom, freedom to make professional choices that are more in alignment with your desires, the ability to take that lower paying job that will enhance your quality of life. Because stuff is just stuff. So the more we can stop attaching so much meaning

to these things and let them go, I guarantee that you will be a happier person. And ultimately, at least in my experience, you're not gonna miss these things. The other thing I would mention is developing a side hustle. If you listen to Chris Gillibeau on my podcast recently or read his new book of the same name, I think there's wisdom in starting to put some time and effort into developing a project that could bring in some supplemental income in your free time,

something that you enjoy doing. And I know it's hard. I don't have the answer to what that looks like for you. And I also am very well aware that the attorney life doesn't always allow very much free time. But if you can get honest with how you do spend your limited free time, I think you'll find that there are things that you can eradicate from your daily schedule to make room for exploring this world of the side hustle. It's really about priorities. If you are that unhappy in your current situation, then hopefully you have the proper motivation to invest some time in this. When I wrote Finding Ultra, I was still working as an attorney. I just made it happen in my free time. So in other words, utilizing the time you have to create a foundation for a new

life is super important. I also think you can to create a foundation for a new life is super important. I also think you can spend some time looking for a new job. From your email, you're presuming that you would have to take a pay cut for a more meaningful job, more meaningful career trajectory. But is that really the case? Is that the truth? Have you really looked into other opportunities? Because a law degree is an incredibly valuable asset that happens to

translate very well to other occupations. So maybe invest a little bit in exploration, and I think you might be surprised at some opportunities that might pop up. And I think the final thing I would say is to really prioritize patience. These things take time. It's not necessarily about up and quitting your job, walking away overnight. Sometimes it is. And if you can do that, great. But more often than not,

it's the tiny little things that you do every day to move your life in a new direction that craft the path forward, imperceptibly at first, but massive over time. So it's about devotion to that process. And I think the more that you can do that, the more meaning you'll be able to build in your life as you are still in the current job situation that you find yourself. So start taking those actions, stay out

of the results, just keep doing things that can over time shift your reality. And if you have a goal for what that looks like, that's even better. You can work back from the ultimate goal, whether that's self-employment or a new job, and identify the stepping stones along the way required to achieve it. Mark them on the calendar, fill in the days in between with tangible actions that you can take daily. And one more thought that I had is to let people know that this is what you're looking for, to network, to reach out and meet other people doing interesting things. Let them know that you want to shift, plant those seeds, and most importantly, have faith, trust in yourself.

If you devote yourself to these practices relentlessly and consistently, I'm quite confident that you can achieve the result that you seek. It may take some time. It's not going to happen overnight, like I said. But engaging in the process is really the path forward. And like I said, in the meantime, it will start to build more meaning and purpose and direction into your life. And when you do that, the universe will respond.

And I think you'll be amazed at what might show up in your life. And when you do that, the universe will respond. And I think you'll be amazed at what might show up in your life. Anyway, thank you for your email. And I sincerely hope that that is somewhat helpful to you. Before we get into the podcast, a couple quick announcements, a quick reminder to those struggling with your diet choices that we have created a super powerful platform, a set of incredible tools to take all the guesswork out of healthy plant-based eating. It's called the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's awesome. Thousands of plant-based recipes, grocery lists,

even grocery delivery in many cities. Everything is totally customized to your goals and needs at an incredibly affordable $1.90 a week. When you sign up for a year, people are loving it. The feedback and the results that we have been on the receiving end of are amazing. So to check it out and learn more, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner at the top of my website, richroll.com. Also, today is my 51st birthday. And the only thing I want is to help those in need access clean water. This is a huge problem.

663 million people across planet Earth currently don't have access to clean water. It's a giant problem, but it's also totally solvable. So please visit my charity water fundraising page at my.charitywater.org forward slash richroll and consider a donation. I'm asking for $51 in donations, but anything you can contribute helps a ton. We've raised over $36,000 to date, which is incredible. Thank you so much. It's just amazing. But we still have a ways to go to reach my $51,000 goal, and now is the time. So if you've been sitting on this, please go to my.charitywater.org

forward slash ritual and pledge for a great cause. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the

best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do.

And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay. Ireland. AMA. Ask me anything. So this session started out, or at least my thought was that I would answer a bunch of questions about my training,

how my philosophy on training and racing has evolved, also with respect to nutrition, preparing for O to Low, Epic Five, et cetera. And we did cover this a bit, but the conversation ended up opening up into a much more wide-ranging discussion. We talked about the difference between good pain and bad pain, i.e. distinguishing laziness from the need to rest. We talked about the difference between good pain and bad pain, i.e. distinguishing laziness from the need to rest. We talked about my role models and my influences, what I am looking to do next, what I'm looking to achieve next. A little aside, this was recorded before Otolo, so we kind of talk about my preparation for that. That is now in the past, of course. And also my perspective on competition

and how that has evolved. We talk about meditation, spirituality, the importance of service, plus how Julie and I are both alike and not alike and how we work together to be a team. And we dive into a little bit about Julie's backstory. Julie chimes in quite a bit. So this Ask Me Anything sort of turned into an Ask Us Anything, but it's great. And I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. So without further ado, here is me and Julie back in Ireland. Enjoy. All right.

How's everybody doing? Good. Everybody feeling good? everybody doing? Good. Good. Everybody feeling good, excited? Awesome. Awesome. Cool. So I thought that due to public consensus, we sort of shifted things around. And I think it would be cool to do sort of an AMA, ask me anything about training,

ask me anything about training, specifically like how I train, why I train, how my training philosophy has evolved, anything relating to nutrition, lifestyle, morning routines, my preparation for Otillo or how I prepared for Ultraman, Epic Five, or just fitness and nutrition questions in general, I think would be cool. That seems to be, you know, something that, that, that people seem to be interested in. So I'm happy to talk about it. I don't have any monologue to preface any of this with. I just want to open it up to you guys and be able to talk about what you guys want to talk about.

So if there's anybody who wants to go first and ask a question, let's go for it. Julie's got the mic. Yeah. Um, something I've been wondering about is how, like, what are some clues within your body to differentiate, um, over-raining versus pushing past like fatigue yeah that's a great question uh essentially how do you know when when pain is good and when pain is bad you know how do you make that distinction between oh i'm being i'm being like lazy or i'm being a wuss and i should just get over myself and get out there versus i really need to take a break. And I think part of it is intuition that comes with experience. Like you just sort of learn over time where that line is, where that limit is, but there are ways that you can gauge that for yourself. I think in general, um, there are, uh, not a lot of cases of people who are, um are super inexperienced and aren't training a ton that are overtraining.

I think maybe people leap to that conclusion a little prematurely, but I think there is something to be said for people that are out of shape and ramp up too quickly, who can overtire themselves and then impair their body's ability to recover expeditiously so that they can bounce back day to day. I strongly suggest training with a heart rate monitor. And the more familiar you can get with how your heart functions with respect to the training that you're doing, the more connected you can become with your body and the signals that it's giving to you. I still wear one every time I go out and run or ride my bike, even though I've been doing it long enough where I could basically tell you what my heart rate is just because I'm so familiar with it. But I think when you're, when you're over-training or you're pushing things too hard, or you're in a state of like, um, over fatigue, your, your heart rate will be a pretty good indicator of when to back off. So either, uh, your heart

rate, you'll be unable to get your heart rate up, even though like you're out there pushing yourself really hard. You're just not, it's like super low for some reason, despite the perceived effort level. Maybe you feel like you're pushing yourself really hard and it, why is it so low? And I'm going slow. That would be one indication that maybe you need to back off. If your sleep has been impaired, you know, like there's a lot, I think you're, you know, you're, it's the more you can kind of connect with your body and understand the signals that your body is giving you, then, then intuitively you're going to know, like, this is a day that I need to back off and to not judge yourself or like, Oh, I'm, I'm, I am lazy because I think recovery, focusing on recovery and taking it as seriously as your training itself, uh, is the recipe for

success. It's like stress plus rest equals growth. If you take the rest out and just say, well, I'm just going to power through, then you're removing one half of that equation. That's going to allow you to progress and break through the glass ceiling or, you know, um, move, move beyond like any plateaus that you've experienced. Does that answer your question? Is there anything specific that you've encountered where you weren't sure? Um, I mean, sometimes like when I'm cycling, I, I don't know if I need to rest my legs or if I'm just being a wimp. And so sometimes I get out and I'm just not able to perform the way that I want to. And so I think, okay, maybe I need to rest. Right. But then how am I going to progress if I go rest and not keep plugging away. Yeah. Well, I think that, that if you take a long-term view of it instead of like, okay, why am I not performing well today? Uh, then it's easier to

kind of like, you're not going to be able to go out and PR every single day. You know, if you set yourself up for like, why am I not as fast today as I was yesterday or three days ago, then you get into this sort of manic state where every workout isn't, you're, you're anxious about because you set this bar for yourself. And ultimately, like if you're going to spend a lifetime enjoying a pursuit like cycling, not every day is going to be super awesome, you know? So you're going to have down days. It doesn't mean you should get off the bike and stop, but just like accept where you're at. One of the things I always say is, you know, train where you're at, not where you think you should be or where you were yesterday or last year when you were 20 years old or where you think you should be. Like don't, you know,

if you have a goal time for a 10K or a marathon, you know, you're not necessarily going to be able to train at that goal, you know, pace. you have to train where you're at every day. And some days you get a great night's sleep and your nutrition's dialed in, you feel awesome. And then the next day, for whatever reason, like you just feel off. And instead of like being upset about that, it's like, okay, this is where I'm at. How can I make the best of this situation? And sometimes that means, you know what, I'm pulling the plug. Like I just, I'm not feeling it today. Something's really off. And I know that I need to rest. And some days it's like, you know what, I'll just slow it down a little bit or just, you know, accept that this isn't going to be the best workout ever, but, uh, I still need to see

it through. Right. And then learn from that. And I think the more that you pay attention to your body signals, as you start to develop as an athlete, uh, and you track it. Like if you journal it by using, you know, either just pen and paper and in a notebook or using apps like training peaks or Strava or any of the numerous ones that are available where you kind of, you can like upload your workout, even do it analog or type it in and just say, this is how I felt. Like the most important thing isn't like the data. It's like, how did I? Like, I felt, you know, my breathing felt labored, or today it felt effortless, or whatever, and you'll see patterns emerge.

And you'll notice, like, oh, when I felt really good, this is what I was eating, and this is how I slept, and this is what my heart rate was. And you'll start to see, like, oh, I function better when I'm doing this. I function less well when I'm doing this. But I think rest is important. Like, you shouldn't, I think there's a, there's an attitude out there that if you take a rest day or you back off in a workout or you pull the plug that somehow that implies failure or that you're a weak person

or something like that. And, and I just don't think that that's a good way of looking at it. You know, some of the most talented, successful athletes that I know, um, they're the ones who really know where that line is. And I can remember when I was a freshman in college, uh, I was like trying really hard to like make an impression on the Stanford swim team. Like here I was, I was 18 years old and I was essentially walking on to like the greatest swim team in the world. Like where all these people were world record holders and, and, you know, Olympic gold medalists, et cetera. Um, and so I was, my, my strategy was like, I'm just going to outwork everybody. Like I will just do whatever it takes to like, um, you know, to like get in good with this

situation. Uh, and there were positives and benefits of that. It didn't ultimately work out that great for me, but one of the things I observed early on was there was one swimmer, perhaps, uh, the most talented swimmer on the entire team, Scott, John Moffitt. He had, uh, set a world record in the 100 breaststroke, um, and had had an unfortunate situation in the 1984 Olympics where he went into the Olympics as the favorite with the world record he pulled a groin muscle and ended up like not he was in the finals but he didn't medal but essentially this unbelievably talented swimmer like the greatest in the world and during the early months of training the guy literally didn't come to morning

swim practice and we were doing stadium steps like a couple of times a week and he wouldn't show up for that either. And I was like, what is with this guy? Like, he just is lazy. He doesn't come to practice. And he just knew ultimately it took me like a year and a half to like understand that he just knew his body. He knew what it needed. He was a big guy. He understood that like training that much early in the season was only going to run him into the ground. And he was willing to invoke the ire of his teammates and the coach in favor of knowing what he knew was right for him. So my point being that I think we're all different. We all have different, you know, sort of, um, uh, set points for what that looks like. And so you'll know that with intuition,

the more that you invest time into, you know, the cycling and the things that you're doing. I have a question, um, maybe along the lines of rest. Um, yesterday, Colin was talking about eating seasonally and then also exercising seasonally doing more when there's longer hours of light and less when there's not i'm wondering if you if you do that at all or if you just don't pay attention i do that but i don't know that i do that consciously because i'm trying to be in tune with the seasons uh i, I'm very much like a sunlight person. Like I'm, I like, I like to be, you know, if it was up to me, it would be endless summer, like all the time. Like I would just chase the sun year round. Um, so when we are in the winter months or where the

light is, uh, you know, where it gets darker earlier, et cetera, and it's colder out, I get cocooned. Like I sort of get a little depressed and like i don't really feel like working out and i i tend to not work out as much or i do a lot more like indoor gym work and you know less like long stuff out you know out on the trails etc so i think i naturally just follow that circadian rhythm um with the seasons but i'm not i'm not doing it consciously i'm just i think that's more like listening to it consciously. I'm just, I think that's more like listening to my body. Like I'm just less inclined to, you know, push myself as hard or go as far in those, in those, in those winter months. I think that's natural, you know? And I think if

you want, um, longevity as an athlete, or you're trying to be, you know, an athlete for life and lifestyle, uh, that you have to, you have to, you have to do that. Like you have to take periods off, you know, you have to, there's certain months of the year where you need to, you need to cycle down so that you can, uh, you know, cycle back up again. If you're just hammering all the time, you're just not going to, you're going to burn out. You're going to get injured. You're going to get sick of it. Like you're not going to be able to, you know, be a peak performer for, you know, for the duration. Hi, Rich. So I'm, I'm not an endurance athlete. I don't know. You were out running. So I would say that you are. Okay. Okay. Okay. Maybe I am. But I, you know, I run a lot. I don't know. You were out running. So I would say that you are. Okay. Okay. Okay. Maybe I

am. But I, you know, I run a lot. I swim. I do a lot of yoga. I'm busy with my family. I meditate, you know, kind of do all the things. And I've certainly cultivated a morning practice. I think morning ritual is really important. What I'm curious to know is, um, how do you curate the end of the day? What does the end of the day look like for you and how important is it? Do you think, how do I curate the end of the day? Um, I think that is important. It is interesting. Like all the, all the talk is about morning routines. And I think that is important. It is interesting. Like all the, all the talk is about morning routines. And I think that's great. You know, like how do you set the intention for the day? And you know, what happens after that is very much a function of how you've thought about

and planned, you know, for the day by virtue of practicing those morning routines. Um, but Julie's looking at me funny, like evening routines. Like I, I, I probably don't think about it as much as I should, you know? Um, sometimes I work super late. Like every day is different for me. Like, it's not like, Oh, every day at this time I do this. Like there's so many moving parts in our household that honestly, a lot of times it's just, we're spinning plates and we're doing the best that we can. Right. So some days I'm up really late working and other, other days I go to bed super early, but if my preference, um, when things are, you know, under my control is to go to bed quite early. Like I would, I would like to go to bed at nine o'clock, you know, every night or go, go to bed when the sun

goes down. I like to go to bed early and I like to wake up early. Sleep is super important. And if I'm, even if I'm up late and I have the ability to sleep in later, I naturally wake up early. So that doesn't really work for me. So going to bed at an earlier hour than is probably usual for most people of our generation is a big thing for me. And, of course, I sleep in the tent. That's a whole other discussion. That's an evening routine that probably not that many people would be on board with. And other than that, I don't know.

What are my evening routines? I don't think that I really have, honestly, like I don't really have, I don't really have any sagacious advice about that. Go to bed early. Yeah, I think it's probably, I don't know, I think it's like the gloves are off at the end of the day. It's kind of you put so much structure from the start, and then you, I don't know, for me, I reach a certain point,

then it's just like free for all. But, yeah, I'm trying to put maybe a bit more emphasis into some practices to help. Yeah, I mean, one thing I would say, and this is just me personally, like my, I function best early in the mornings. Like that's when my creativity is at its peak. That's when my energy levels are at their peak. And so I really try to like leverage that time to get the most out of my day by the time four or five o'clock, you know, four or five o'clock rolls around, like I'm kind of done, you know, like the, my best work is

behind me. And that doesn't mean that I don't, you know, force myself to do much more, you know, fairly regularly, but it becomes a law of diminishing returns. And I realized that. So I try not to, um, reserve like this, the most important things that I need to do for the end of the day. Um, I try to make sure that I do those first so that the later hours are for stuff that's a little more rote and doesn't require as much creative energy, like emails and things like that.

So the more like sort of rudimentary, you know, tasks that you have to take care of or even like errands or things like that, I try to push those to the afternoon. That's great. Thank you. Hi. I'm interested in the rich of 10 years ago or nine years ago when you had that epiphany on the stairs and you're overweight, unhealthy, unfit. Who did you look to in that time? Who were your role models to help try and drag you out of that in terms of health, in terms of your diet and your training? Yeah, that's a great question.

I've never had like big time role models where I look to people and like, I'm going to do what that person does. I mean, certainly there's been people that have influenced me from that period forward. When I began to play around with diet and ultimately found, you know, a lot of value in eating plant-based, certainly Brendan Brazier was a big influence on me with his book thrive that had recently come out. His product line, Vega had like literally just hit the shelves. We had to drive all the way to like Air One in Hollywood in order to get it. There was one grocery store in all of Los Angeles that carried it, which was like an hour and a half drive from where we lived.

So his book and his philosophy on training and nutrition was certainly influential on me. When I started getting interested in ultra endurance, it was David Goggins who really was the spark that lit my interest in Ultraman because the first article that I read about that race was literally the story of David Goggins who had just completed that race. And it was a remarkable story. And I, I thought if this guy who had been this overweight power lifter football player guy could complete this race, then maybe there's a chance that I could too. So it sort of planted that seed of possibility in me. Um, was important, I think, as well. But I've never been, like, I've never needed anyone. Like, once I lock in on something and I'm like, this is what I'm doing.

Like, I don't need that people are like, well, what motivates you or what gets you out of bed? Like, I'm very self-motivated. Like, I don't really need that external push. I need some accountability. So when I got serious about training, I hired a coach and Chris health, who's the guy that I'm doing, uh, this Otillo race with. And, you know, we would check in with each other and he would send me workouts and he's kind of a hard ass. Like he's not like a, he's not a pat on the back kind of guy. And so just knowing that

he's seeing my workout, just like, even though he, I'm sure he doesn't care, but just knowing that he was going to see what I did was enough for me to make sure that I would do it. Just like having like a, like, even if it's just like a buddy system, like, I think that was really important. Um, and you know, you see that in, you know, recovery as well. It's like people stay sober because they're connected to other individuals. So if you have a goal, whether it's a fitness goal or a health goal or a weight loss goal or a professional goal having an accountability partner or a community of people that you uh that know what you're doing and why you're doing it who can keep you honest and on the right track i think is super important right in terms of the recipe of what to do with Julie as far as nutrition? Yeah, as far as the nutrition, I would say mostly I had Julie's support from the beginning.

And so Julie was somebody who was eating much better than me and living a much cleaner lifestyle. But then I was sort of trying to push it even further. But then I was sort of trying to like push it even further. And she was game to like, you know, learn as much as she could. And like, you know, basically support what I was trying to do. Without that, it would have been very difficult, I think, you know. And so I'm very sympathetic to people who are like, I'm trying to do this. And my partner's not into it or whatever. Like I know that that makes it a lot harder.

So, you know, thankfully, not only was Julie super supportive, but she's unbelievably talented in the kitchen. And, and beyond that, even more importantly, just supportive on a soul level, like understanding, like when I wanted to do these things that were kind of, you know, left of field from what you would expect, you know, at that time she was like, that's what you should be doing, you know, and, and there's no way any of this stuff would have happened or I would be sitting here right now had she not had my back, like in the most profound way. Yeah. And I mean, I think that, um, also, uh, I had been through a process of healing myself of a golf ball size cyst in my neck, um, the year prior, actually the two years prior to Rich having his moment of awakening. So I had a cyst in the front of my neck that appeared the size of a golf

ball, and I was advised by three different surgeons that I had to have this medium-level surgery, and there was no possible way that I was going to be able to heal it. And I had had a botched and there was no possible way that I was going to be able to heal it. And I had had a botched tonsillectomy as an adult when Tyler was like a year and a half old. I had what was supposed to be a routine tonsillectomy, and I lost my taste for almost a year. They did something in the back of my throat, like with the anesthesia tube or whatever that they shoved down there.

And I had referred pain into my eardrums and had to be admitted back to the hospital and I remember this young doctor was trying to make a pain cocktail that would work and nothing was working like morphine wasn't worth working so I finally got through that I lost a bunch of weight and then healed from that so when this cyst showed up I had had this experience with medicine where I didn't trust medicine you know western medicine and because I was deep into yoga and felt akin to Ayurveda I felt like I just felt resolved that that's how I was going to deal with it and also the the cyst was a thyroglossal duct cyst, which is a rare like

childhood occurrence that usually happens in children between the ages of eight and 12. And I was in my forties, so it made no sense. And I felt kind of blessed also. It was an intuition. You know, I hadn't really, I had never really, um, considered food as medicine because I'm a thin person. So I never had to diet or, uh, which meant that I could eat a lot of really unhealthy stuff and it would, I, and it would basically not really show, you know, or you couldn't really tell. I mean, it would show on my skin, you know, I had breakouts and that kind of stuff, but not in, not in weight necessarily. And so I considered this experience really a gift. Like I thought, wow, I have a gift and I'm not, it's not like, oh, you

have stage four cancer and you're going to die, you know, and you have children. It was a little lighter than that. It was very visible and very ugly but I decided that against everybody's advice I decided I would go do this and and I had to weather it alone I didn't have the support of anyone so I think when Rich started to have his own health wake up and at that time you know he was eating like you know in and out burgers and loads of processed potato chip bags and all kinds of white bread, like everything toxic. And, um, you know, you, it was really, you know, and also he's very extreme. So it was like this, this idea that he's a swimmer and he has to eat huge tons of calories. So it wasn't like there was no swimming happening. There was no swimming. It's like the

idea of being a swimmer was still there 20 years earlier the eating habits so it was never one burger it was like four you know just the most insane amounts of food that i've ever seen anybody eat um and all really you know really really toxic and i i think it's um it's important really the catalyst for us because you know rich's story got picked up, and it was like, oh, you know, corporate guy, you know, gains weight and goes through midlife, you know, crisis and loses weight. It was so, like, when I heard the tagline that had been picked up by the press, I almost, like, spewed my breakfast across the table because it was such a spiritual experience that had led us to that point. But of course, that's what the story, that's what people could enter

through. And one of the main things, which will kind of tie into relationships tomorrow, is that, you know, I had been trying to get Rich to come my way. You know, I had said, listen, I healed myself of this cyst. You know, I had said, listen, I healed myself of this cyst. You know, I see you're struggling. I see you're dense. I see you don't have good energy. You're not feeling good. You know, here, you know, do what I know.

And it seemed like every time I reached out to him, he would get more paralyzed. And I couldn't figure it out. It was, like, really tricky. Because, you know, on the ego level, like I thought, well, I'm trying to encourage a good thing, you know, not a bad thing. So I had a lot of people tell me how right I was. A lot of girlfriends. I had a lot of those discussions about how right I was. in my marriage and it was when I worked with this Indian master who I've talked to you guys about this week who gave me my name my spiritual name he talked to me about divine love and how the sun just simply shines on everything every life form and as you know spiritual beings we're loved simply for our existence simply because you exist that's all so somehow you know

when you have the ski instructor that teaches you and you don't you know and it doesn't hit you and then like you have the fifth teacher and suddenly it's like oh so I was really able to grab that and and really and really become it and I really released him to his own life even watching him eat three in and out burgers and venti coffees with three ad shots I just let him go I was like I'm God he's God I'm releasing him to his own experience and it was really that act that caused the shift it was after that that he had the epiphany on the staircase so that was beneath his entire movement and then at that point I think think he, you know, I was not vegan. And I really went vegan because Sanjay Gupta picked up his story and we were, you know, bleeding financially terribly.

And it ran the morning of my birthday one year. So I just said, okay, I'm going to go vegan just in energetic support of this thing that Rich was doing. And that possibly was going to be a support or something that our family was going to work in. But I think Rich got courage or he got inspiration from me healing myself in that way. Yeah, there's no question. me healing myself in that way. Yeah, there's no question. I mean, you hear, you know, you hear the phrase, uh, you know, let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food, you know, uttered by Hippocrates and whenever it was thousands of years ago, 2,500 years ago. And you're like, yeah, yeah, I got that, you know, but like, did you, have you ever thought about that? Like I hadn't,

you know, I'd never really connected the dots on what that actually meant until I saw what happened with Julie. And I was like, wow, she actually really used food as medicine. And she healed this thing that was very, that you could see. And this thing that was there, and then it was no longer there, despite the fact that all of these other doctors had said that will never happen. So that, not not that that like made me wake up overnight like I just continued doing what I was doing but I kind of filed it in

the back of my head and then when I had this episode this incident you know I was able to pull that out of the file and say okay maybe now I'm ready to explore that but like I said like once I'd lock in on something then like I'm locked in you know so when I made the decision I was like okay this is what I'm doing now was it was it quite quickly obviously you were well overweight you're totally unfit did it progress really quickly from you could barely run 5k to a marathon? How did, how was that progression? How did that evolve? I mean, it wasn't overnight. You know, I basically started playing around with diet. I did this seven day, you know, vegetable juice cleanse that Julie helped me configure. And that was, that was kind of a watershed experience

because by the seventh day of that, I felt this resurgence of energy and vitality that I, that I hadn't felt in many, many, many years. And that led to this, um, you know, exploration of diet to try to find a way of eating that would allow me to feel that way, that way all the time. And that was, you know, six months of, you know, not going so great, but kind of moving, you know, one step forward, two steps backward until ultimately I, I stumbled into eating plant-based and that's when I really felt that sort of permanent resurgence of vitality. And that led to an interest in exercise and getting fit. Uh, and that just meant like, you know, I'm going to go out for a jog, you know, like a mile at first, two miles or whatever.

I'm going to go down to the pool and I'm going to swim for like 20 minutes. Julie bought me a bike for my 40th birthday. I had a couple of buddies in recovery that were into cycling. So I would join them like once a week, you know, and go on like a 20 mile ride. It was super casual, you know, so there was no designs on returning to becoming a competitive athlete or being competitive, um, you know, in these endeavors whatsoever. I was just enjoying connecting to my physical body again. You as an athlete, you can understand that, right? Like, you know, like after so, so many years of like not doing that to like do that again and,

and remember like, Oh, this is like, I love this as a kid, you know, that's what it was about for me, but the weight started to come off. So, you know, I don't know how long it took me to lose the 50 pounds, but it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a matter of weeks, you know, it was probably nine or 10 months or 11 months. I mean, well, I think in the beginning you started, you did the cleanse and you felt, well, first you were like the first two days you were shaking, like you were coming off heroin. You were like curled in the corner, sweating. Um, and then you pass through that and you started feeling amazing. And then you told me you were never going to eat

food again. Cause you were like, this is awesome and i was like okay hold it good alcoholic and then this is it just juice man i'm just gonna drink just juice it's so good no so then after that it was like i felt incredible i was like why shouldn't i just keep doing this why are we stopping this at seven days maybe you're right maybe we should go back to that actually i know well you're always talking about being a breatharian. I was like almost there already. You were there. You were ahead. What were we doing?

Well, so he, you know, and at that time, well, no, not at that time yet. I still wasn't cooking for him in that way. So then he tried to be vegetarian after that. then he tried to be vegetarian after that. And he was eating like, you know, pizza nachos and Taco Bell and whatever, you know, a junk food vegetarian.

And then you gained the weight back. So he initially lost like, let's say 20 pounds. Not during that week. No, after that, like that period. And then you tried,

then you started eating vegetarian, which meant like blue cheese and just, you know, dairy cheese and all this stuff. And then you gained all the weight back like blue cheese and just you know dairy cheese and all this stuff and then you gained all the weight back and you were like this sucks it doesn't work at all and then you were like i'm gonna go vegan but you have heard you explain it that you really went vegan to prove to me and everybody else that it was bullshit so you could go back to eating your burgers that was the plan but i could say i checked every

box this is bollocks as they say in the uk and i'm gonna happily sit on the couch now and enjoy my in and out burgers and i don't watch a lot of law i'm gonna watch a lot of law and order reruns and i don't want anybody to give me a hard time uh but yeah but within seven to ten i was but when i but i was um earnest when i attempted this whole food plant-based experiment i didn't know that that's what it was i just was like i'm gonna get rid of the dairy also i'm gonna get rid of the processed food and and you know within a week of week to 10 days of doing that then i felt like i did on that seventh day of the of the juice cleanse like i felt amazing and i was like wow i eating food. And now I finally feel like that's what I was searching for, you know, and something is going on here. And I didn't, you know, forks over knives hadn't come

out yet. Like I didn't, I didn't, I was just experimenting on myself. This was not informed by, you know, uh, a bibliography of all kinds of books that I was reading. Yeah. I don't even think anybody was like drinking blends at that time. Like except Gunnar. Yeah. In our social world. Yeah. In our world of people that we knew. And then Brendan Brazier was of course kind of there. That all came later.

You know, first was like the experiment on the self. And then I started, once I, once it was working, then I'm like, oh, this is working now. I need to like figure out like what actually is going on and how to do this properly. And that's when I started to find people like Brendan, et cetera. You, uh, you did the Epic five, you've done a lot of ultra running events and things like that. And I think would say that it's pretty fair to say you have a lot of passion in those events and stuff. As you move forward, continuing this, what kind of events do you look for? Are you looking to train for now? I know the one in, is it Sweden that you're going to do now? How do you find

these events now and how do you keep training for these things um well the first thing i would say is that that i haven't raced in five years the last time i raced was 2011 ultraman and um and so this race in september which is called odolo uh it's the swim run world championships will be the first time that i've competed in 2011. And the reason that I decided to get back into it was sort of multifold. For the last several years, after the 2011 Ultraman, then Finding Ultra came out, and then it became about trying to find a way to take this energy around this movement and what had occurred in our lives and try to create something sustainable professionally out of it so that we could continue to like be of

service in this vein rather than me going back to a law firm to be a practicing lawyer. So a lot of my energy went into that and I stayed relatively fit, but not like competition fit. And so after a couple of years years of that I started to like get a little bit too far away from that level of fitness and I was like I had the urge to return to it and turning 50 like I wanted I thought it would be cool to like do something interesting some kind of adventure race at 50 but my motivations have changed like when I was racing previously it was very much like this personal journey to prove something to myself, to have this spiritual experience, to like more

deeply connect with, you know, who I am to answer that question. You know, who am I? Like, what am I supposed to be doing here? You know, those pursuits, particularly and especially the training were a vehicle for wrestling with those issues and answering them for myself and now it's different because i feel like i have resolution on on those issues for the most part i mean obviously we spent our whole lives continuing to try to answer those questions but but i have a lot more clarity than i did and so now the training is more about or now you know the motivation for me isn't like, oh, how fast can I ride my bike? Or like, can I, you know, be competitive in this race? It's

how can I, um, activate and impact the most number of people in the most, uh, positive and prolonged way. Right. And so the podcast is a, is a means of doing that, writing books, doing retreats, these kinds of things, public speaking. Those are all different ways that I am trying to fulfill that. But I think doing a race at age 50 to be an example of a vegan athlete at age 50 and what the human body can do also is a is a way of um propagating that message so that's really my motivation behind it i'm not delusional about like going out and being on a podium or winning and that's not really i don't really care about that anyway um so the training isn't as intense or as focused uh now as it was then because life is more full and, uh, and there are competing interests that,

um, that not only require my attention, but like, you know, for which I want to give my attention to. So it's a little bit different, but I am excited about this race. It's you asked like, how did I pick it? Well, it's just, I don't know. I just couldn't, I was having trouble like getting it up, getting it up up for another triathlon. If I was going to do something, I wanted to do something different and unique, and this race certainly is that. So it's definitely an unknown, and it's uncharted waters, and it's going to be fun, but also it's kind of scary, and it'll be interesting to see how it goes.

Colin, what's that? You just picked you. What's that? It picked me, yes. This race picked me. How did you find out about the race? I knew about this race for many years because Jonas Kolting and Gordo Byrne, both of whom are Ultraman World Champions on different years. You remember Jonas from 2011, right? So they did it as a team several years ago and won the race. And that's how I first heard about it.

And then people over the years have sent me videos and said, oh, you should check this out. It just seemed really cool and different. So I'd been aware of it. And as you know, even you said like a year ago, like you need to get, you need to start training again. Like, what are you doing? You know, I don't know if I was getting paunchy or whatever, but you're like, yeah, like, and, but I need like, I, you know, as much as I love the training, like when you have a race or a goal, it just brings everything into focus. Then you have, cause I need to be structured in my day and, and having something on the calendar kind of just lasers every, you know, it, it, it helps you remove all the fat out of your day and focuses your energy and your time.

And in trying to figure out, but I didn't want to just sign up for anything. Like I wanted to be something that was, that would scare me a little bit, that would get me excited, that was different. And I was thinking about this Otillo race and Chris, my coach, at the same time that you were saying, you need to get back into this. He's, he's emailing me.

He's like, hey man, are you going to like race anymore? What's going on? Like, I think it's time. You got to get back into it. And he's like, and he suggested, he's like, let's do, let's do this Otillo race together. And so that kind of the universe conspired. So in many ways it did, it did pick me. Yes. Right. And what is the race? So it's a, uh, it's a swim. It's the world championships of something called swim run, which is, uh, a newer sport. Um, it's got a foothold in northern europe and it's starting to find its way to the united states but it's relatively new it is an ultra race which over

the course of one day you'll you ultimately run about 40 miles and swim about six miles with i think it's 52 transitions so you're constantly switching it up between swimming and running. You're in the archipelago south of Stockholm where there are all these islands. And you're swimming across these inlets and climbing up on slippery, mossy rocks and darting across little islands and jumping back in the water and doing it again and again and again and again. And there are varying distances between these islands, et cetera. And you do it in teams of two. So my coach, Chris, and I will be doing it in tandem as a duo. And I think there's probably 200 athletes or something like that doing this race. It's not like a 2,000, you know, athlete crowd.

And it's September 4th in Stockholm. And you're attached to this person. How? So they, you're a lot of, a lot of these athletes tether themselves to each other. Cause there's a rule that you can only be a certain number of meters apart from each other. Uh, I don't know that you have to be tethered to that person, but I've got to figure out all the rules. I have, there's a lot of questions. I still don't know the answer. And is it men and women in the same race? Yeah. There's, there's teams of there's men's teams, there's women teams, and then there's mixed teams, men, women pairs. So to build on this, this question, I think a

little bit, um, and maybe it's like a selfish question I have because I think we're exactly the same age, roughly like a month apart. Maybe you 50 50 october 66 so december 66 and um i mean the question is really about the kind of what you're so much younger than me so when you think of the energy or the motivation that you had in the first wave of competing well not swimming but this you're you swimming, but all this reformation stuff. And you think of the energy now, because the reason's different of why you're doing this, but it's still a big effort.

It's not like, I don't know, there's not a lot of comparisons to these kinds of endeavors. And what's the same or different, and what's harder or not about about this and i think of like other athletes that have had sort of similar kind of things like andre agassi was playing tennis for the wrong reasons but he got pretty far and then he had a bit of a crisis and then he came back to tennis and the only way he could come back to it to even perform was because he had to find purpose and his purpose was to raise money for charity, actually. Um, and yours is different, but like, I'm more curious about where, where's the energy

coming from? What's it like? That's different or the same. Cause to, to achieve like you did before, there was a certain fuel there that was almost like revisiting. I want to prove myself in a way that's different, you know? Yeah. I would say that's a difference. Like when I think about Andre Agassi, I agree with you. He had to find a purpose in order to return to tennis. And he found that purpose in giving, in charitable endeavors. But I also would submit that he also had his, he had to find his way back to loving it, right? deep love there. Right. And that love was compromised and he had to find his way back to connect with it in that way. Because if he didn't, if he did, if he couldn't find that, then he still wouldn't have been able to do it for charity. And so I think when you ask like, what's the same, what's the same is that like, I love doing, I love the train. I love the lifestyle. You know, it's about the lifestyle. I love the lifestyle. And people are like, how do you get

motivated to get up and do that you don't have to do that stuff anymore and it's like it's what I prefer to do you know like if I was living another person's life I could live in a cabin in the woods and just like train all you know like I'd be content to do that so it's my choice um so I think that has remained consistent. One thing I think has evolved out of it is, you know, I spoke to the purpose a little bit before. The intention behind it is a little bit different. Like, Andre Agassi's doing it for charity while I'm doing it to further a message and in the spirit of advocacy. and I think what's different is I'm not doing it to like I don't necessarily I don't need to prove anything to myself I don't feel like I really need to prove anything to anybody else I'm doing it and I'm not doing it to beat anyone else either you know it's like that I'm not I don't feel as competitive about it as I did in 2010 I'm not as like sort of like uh tunnel vision focused on it um and i think that's a result of of doing it more like just for the love of doing it you know and that's something julie

challenged me about like you know a couple years ago she's like the way you got to find your way back is you got to you got to do it for the love like you got because when you're doing it like oh there's this race and then you're shouldering all these expectations and and uh and you kind of you know you set yourself up for like a lot of anxiety also and you know the truth is like there's like at the time that i was training for those races there was nothing else going on like that was in some weird way that only made sense to me and julie like that was the way out as like sort of nonlinear and illogical as that sounds. We found our way out. Now there's all this amazing stuff in our lives and we have all these great opportunities.

And I want to be able to be available for those what it could be if I really wanted to like show up and say I'm 110% because this is all I've been doing for the last year is getting ready for this one race. That's not the life that I'm living, nor is it the life that I want to be living. So that's definitely different. Like when I showed up at Ultraman in 2009, I was like, I have no excuses. I have prepared to the hilt. Like I am ready to go. Like I'm here for real, you know? And now it's like, I'm going to go. And like, there's a lot of questions and unknowns

and it's going to be fun and awesome. And whatever the result is, like I'm not attached to that. I have a different relationship to the result I guess yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure and that doesn't mean every day I'm I look at my training plan and I'm like psyched you know I'm like oh god I gotta do that really you know does that answer the question yeah cool yeah I was just going to play off of that a little bit um while you were speaking uh thought came to mind although it almost left towards the end there

um but just kind of thinking through the the arc of your kind of that middle part of your life where you know you were uh an athlete early on and i i read i guess or your life where, you know, you were, uh, an athlete early on. And I, I read, I guess, or maybe I heard, but you know, you said you found solace in the pool. Like it was a, it was a comfort for you. And I don't know about the training itself, if that was also something, but, um, you know, when you decided to get fit again, you know, you had, you had your incident and stuff to hear you say you love it now. Did you love it then? Or was there a different motivation to pursue the Ultraman? Um, and then did that bring you to love it, you know, now, or that's a really good

question. I don't know that I've ever been asked that question before. Yeah. I appreciate that. Um, I think it's, I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, I'd never really been a runner, you know, I'd never really like, like tried to like train on a bike. So those were brand new for me. So I certainly didn't, I couldn't, I can't say that like, Oh, I just love that from the outset. I think as a young person, I love, there was, I definitely found solace in the pool and there was something about pushing myself physically that was rewarding for me or that I connected with and, and, and gave my life purpose

and meaning and was like an anchor, um, through, you know, a childhood that was fraught with, you know, a lot of confusion for me. Um, and so I think I felt, you know, when I returned to it initially, it was just like, I'm just sick of being fat, man. You know? And like, and then it was like that terrible feeling when you're trying to like get in shape running when like every step is just horrible, you know, like I had to go through that, you know, but I knew like well enough from being an athlete younger, like I just have to, I have to do this so that I can get to the point where it's actually enjoyable. And once I got to that, I was like, Oh my God, like I live in this area where there, there's just trails every, it's like Mecca for like trail running and cycling. And like,

how long had we lived there? And I'd never gone on a trail once, even for like a hike or anything. So this whole world opened up to me and I was like, what have I been doing my whole life? Like here I, like God has planted me like right in the epicenter of like where you would want to be to explore these certain things. And I had yet, it never occurred to me to do that. And once that door opened, I started to realize like, wow, I really like, I enjoy this. You know, I've been depriving myself of this thing that, that really is, is, is igniting that child within, you know, that we talked about the other day. Like, what do you want? What, you know, who were you when you were six years old? What made you happy? Like it was a very childlike response to it, like a very

basic base primal, um, experience. Um, but then, you know, beyond that, like then it just, it just grew from there. So I think the kernel of it, yes, like the swimming, all of that. And like, you know, swimming is an endurance sport. Like I was doing like crazy yardage when I was in high school and college, like it was very much an endurance thing. And there's something about, you know know pushing your body in that way that um that like just agreed with me and i think i've always used as a as a you know as a temple to like wrestle with whatever confusion or questions that i had about about my life and so in many ways it was returned to that like you know the whether it's the trail or the swimming pool, like it's sort of the same thing. It's a very solo, you know, quiet, like active meditative pursuit. Yeah. That's interesting.

I was telling somebody, I think yesterday that, uh, I started running, I guess when I was 30, 32 or something. And, and before that running was always punishment, you know, when you're in a sport, if you didn't perform or the team didn't perform, it was go run laps or go do something. I hated running, you know, it was like that. But then I had a colleague that kind of pulled me in and said, Hey, let's run a 5k. He was a big runner. And, you know, just through the process of training for that, I guess I kind of came to love it. And then there's the solace and the, uh uh quiet on the trails or or like today i mean you can get out in a group and it's a lot of fun as well to kind of push each other and and chit chat and stuff yeah super fun right yeah i mean it's the same thing

when you're a kid like yeah that's what when you get in trouble you go run like that association gets formed really early. Yeah. I just have a question on the competitive side for you because I've always been super competitive and now I've spent the last two years just trying to be,

which is kind of difficult and contrary. And when you talk about 2009, 2010, the preparation, the readiness, going in there to win, and then you look at what you're doing now and the challenge ahead, what percentage of you is still really thinking, I want to win? Is it all, you know, I'm just going to be, or, you know, how much is still in there going? That's a good question.

I'm a competitive person, but I think I'm competitive with myself. You know, I think when, so whether, you know, Ultraman 2009, you know, even as a swimmer, what I do now, it's like, I'm, I'm judging myself against myself mostly. Like it's something like these, these ultra endurance races, like I don't worry about what anyone else is doing. Like, cause ultimately you're, you're racing against yourself, like you're your own limiter and so for me it's always been like if i cross the line and feel like i did everything that i could then i can be content with that regardless of whatever place you know you come in um so it's an internal thing i think i think when i get caught up in and i'm

human so like especially like like let's take the podcast right so i So I do the podcast. The audience is what it is, but then I'll go on iTunes and I'll look at the rankings and that's like sport, right? Like, why is that guy ahead? You know, like, how come I, what do I have to do to like move up? You know, why is that guy there? And I should be here. And when I started doing that, like it's, that's not good. Right. And Julie's like, snap out of it. Like, what is wrong with you? You know, is this why you're doing a podcast to like, see where you are on iTunes? Like, that's not what it's about, you know, but I have to be reminded of that. Like my default is to be competitive. And when I'm in that kind of competitive mindset, then I'm definitely not my best self. And I don't

do my best work either. You know, sort of like, what is the motivation behind it? And when I can be in the headspace of service, like, am I giving? How can I give better? How can the quality of what I'm trying to do, the service that I'm trying to do, how can I increase the amplitude of that? Then the rest seems to take care of itself. But the idea of like being and being competitive, which is kind of like the core of what you're asking, like that's a push and pull, like there's a tension there that I continue to struggle with, like, cause I am competitive. And how does that, how do you, how do you reconcile that with like

the meditative, you know, ethos ofos of just be and let go and surrender? How do you do that? You know what I mean? I think that's a really interesting question and one that I'm not sure that own side of the street clean. And the more that I focus on what I'm doing, my behaviors and the actions that I can control and detach from the results of my actions and what everyone else is doing, then the better off that I am.

And the more I am able to kind of be present as opposed to future tripping or being pissed off about something that happened in the past. And do you think like, have you had that conversation? Like when you're running on your own, have you had the conversation around,

okay, it's going to be cool if I'm like eight. Is that, is that actually being a moment? Yeah. I mean like, look, being here at Balivalon right now,

like one month out from Otillo, is not an ideal training situation for me. You know what I mean? Like if I was home right now, I'd be training like four or five hours a day. So it's like, but I'm so happy that I'm here. I wouldn't not be here. So it doesn't matter, like 8th, 10th, 20th. I don't care. I want to go have fun. I want to be be here, you know? So it doesn't, it doesn't matter like eighth, 10th,

20th. I don't care. You know, I want to go have fun. I want to be able to be a good ambassador of the plant-based athlete, vegan athlete movement and equip myself in a way that I can feel proud of and I can hold up to the world and say, look, this was cool and awesome. And it's not the be all end all, you know, maybe I'll go do something else like two months later like this is just this is the life that i'm living it's not like i'm not staking my reputation or how i feel about myself or or or putting or investing any energy in how other people are going to think or feel about me based upon how i perform in a race i'm 50 years old who the fuck cares you know yeah and yet i'm competitive i want to push the fuck cares? You know? And yet I'm competitive. I want to push myself and I want to know when that race is over that, that, you know, with the, with the deck that I

was dealt, that I did everything I could to be the best, you know, that I could be on that day. Yeah. And if I can just offer something on this subject, um, I think this is your process of getting to the state of doing it for the love because i think before when you were doing some of the ultra events you were approaching it in a more competitive way and more attached to it so it was more like this one big thing that was happening and it was a one focus and And how I feel you now entering in this race is that you're in the process of training for races, which I think generally is very in alignment

with your divine blueprint. I think it's good for you. It's good for you to be in the process of training. So I feel like you're finding a softness in it. You can still be competitive. You can still want to win, but I guess you might be doing it with joy, with love, with more like, let's see what happens instead of the tension and the pressure that you have to crush somebody else to succeed. Yeah, I get that. I mean, I've never been somebody whose competitive nature is about beating other people.

It's always been about trying to make sure that I do the best that I can be. You're looking at me weird, but I'm telling you that's the truth. It's true. I don't get... It's not about, I'm pretty clear on that. Yeah, maybe in the podcast. All right. I have a little work to do there. Maybe.

No, but I think it's cool. I mean, I think this is Rich's divine design. his body is made for training and for athletic events, for athletic time and processes in his life. And I don't think because he's 50, he should stop doing that. I actually don't think he should ever stop doing that. Just whatever, you know, whatever's in alignment with what he's doing. I actually prefer being in a relationship with you when you are training. It is good for you. It brings good things. So a lot of people say to me, or a lot of, you know, couples have said to me, you know, well, how do you deal with the training schedule and the times and the commitment? And I guess Rich and I are both very independent people and I never was a kind of

partner where I I needed him home at a certain time like I just don't need him home you know I need him well in in his best self so that when we do interact it it's of a high quality. So I think you're doing a beautiful job of finding your way into doing it for the love. We'll see. Thanks. I didn't quite believe you the day when you said it, but that was really genuine. That you were okay with just competing and not winning. Oh, when I said it earlier, you mean?

Yeah. No, I'm not delusional either. You know what i mean like it's like yeah it'll be fine cool but if i'm really pissed i'm gonna call you at the end of the race i'm just curious um kind of as you followed this path of your childhood passion or divine blueprint, like, were there moments where you kind of wavered in, is this what I should be doing? Or during a race, even like, um, you know, that inner dialogue going on of how your body feels or where you are in the race, for example, kind of, how would you

approach that and kind of keep on that path feeling? Do you mean in a, in a race context or in like a life? A little bit of both, right? I guess like, yeah. I mean like where to even start with that? Like, oh my God, you know, are you kidding? Like it was the, you know, the, the, the level of confusion and like uncertainty that persisted for a good, you know, seven year period of like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, am I, am I crazy? You know, that was a daily, you know, visitation, you know, because basically like, you know, look, you're, you're, you're, you know, many years younger than me. But you just stepped out of a traditional career path and i'm sure there's people in your your circle who are questioning like the soundness of that decision

for yourself and that's something i relate to tremendously i did the same thing uh and it was terrifying but i had a lot more responsibilities at the time that i did it, and to step out of that, you know, is going to, uh, engender a lot of judgment from other people, which doesn't help with your sort of conviction about what you're doing. And my path forward wasn't, wasn't, wasn't exactly like a plan. You know, it was like, it was like, I'm going to wrestle with my soul and I'm going to do that by like riding my bike and like, right. And it's like, it's, it was crazy, you know? And so, and, and I, every day I was like, I'm going to wrestle with my soul and I'm going to do that by like riding my bike and like, it's like, it's, it was crazy, you know? And so, and, and I, every day I was like, what am I doing? This doesn't make any sense.

So, so yeah, uh, I, it took a tremendous amount of patience and conviction. and I think that there's a narrative that gets spun with people that kind of pursue these kinds of things like they're doing it without any fear and they have no self-questioning and that's not my experience I think it's probably not the experience of most people I was scared, I wasn't convinced that this was the right thing to do. Um, there was a lot of judgment and criticism. Um, and it took a

lot of like strength and support, you know, from Julie in order to kind of weather it and see it through to the other side. And I think, you know, I said it earlier, but like Julie was really the anchor because she was like, it doesn't matter what anyone's saying like this. I know that this is what you're supposed to be doing. You've got to see this through everything else it's details that we'll sort out but your priority is to like continue to pull this thread that you know it seems to be the thing that's up for you and that's the way we're going to resolve this and answer these questions which like in in a factual logic- rational world, like that is, you know, like that doesn't seem like a sound argument. She was in fact, right. And it, it took a lot longer than we thought.

Um, but, uh, but ultimately, you know, it was correct. You know, it's like, like playing that heart song was the way through. It just didn't, it didn't show up in the way that I thought it would or as quickly as it would. Um, and that's why, you know, Julia always calls it the warrior's path. Like you, you have to be like a Jedi, you know, and you will be tested, but ultimately it is the, the most like validating and, and like, um, what's the word that I'm looking for? Um, gratifying, you know, path that you can blaze for yourself. So did you find like reassurance and kind of having that focus towards a race or kind of that type of goal? Did that help you? I think having like it, it lended structure to it, you know, otherwise, otherwise like it it because it gave you something to like focus your energy on to plan and prepare for even if it wasn't necessarily related to the larger

question at least it gave the day like you know like an idea of what you should and shouldn't be doing um that's for sure yeah yeah thanks well and there was no ability, there was no, no ability to plan a crew or support or resources for something like that either. So there was, there was a lot of kind of, you know, flying, you know, flying with the wind. And, you know, your dad gave you some money one year to, to, you know, he saw what you were doing, what you were trying to do. And he gave you some money to year to to you know he saw what you were doing what you were trying to do and he gave you some money to get plane tickets and you know and then the year that i showed up as crew captain it was you know the the motley crew that i barely knew and we were his crew for uh ultraman which was quite an experience um so and, I think too, just through the entire process, I think where, where it's really working and you get the validation is in the present moment.

Because you're doing something that's truly feeding you. And this is key for all of us here. It's like that thing that I was talking about. If you can find the joy, make sure you spend time in the joy because the joy is going to cultivate more of that vibration and you'll start to magnetize that to you. The challenge is that while you're in those little moments of the joy throughout the day, you still have things like bills or, you know, or the structure. structure. And so your, you will find your life will always support you. It just might not support you in the way that you think you should be supported. So you may have things like lose your health insurance. I mean, I hope you don't, but I mean, in our case, we lost our health insurance or we'd had our cars repossessed or, you know,

that was how it showed up but really you know within 12 hours of getting the second car repossessed a friend of rich called him and gave him gave him a car so you know it was a huge like monster truck with like huge wheels but it's like we had a car you know and then shortly after you know i i got a car as well it's it's it's surprising how many extra cars are lying around the planet you know it's but see in your mind and the way we've been cultivated in a western way is is it shameful to ask for help that you should be able to handle your own things in the privileged world that we live in. And part of the dismantling for us, or definitely for me, was learning how to receive. Learning how to be okay with needing somebody to give me

something. And me being able to receive it in love and not judge myself or beat myself up about it. And so, of course, the way that I dealt with it was in a more expanded way. Like, we live all these lifetimes and we've known each other before. And who knows who I was in the last lifetime before I met you, Patrick? And so, if you're helping me, if that's the condition that you're helping me in this lifetime, then I have to believe in natural law that everything is accounted for. then I have to believe in natural law that everything is accounted for. So whether you receive the evening out in this lifetime, I know you will receive it in some space time because it can't be otherwise. So some of that was in the moments we were receiving huge validation, like Rich was running in the mountains for hours with no water like running a full

marathon and just not even feeling it so you would say that that was a sign that he was on to the right thing meanwhile as you know his friends are pulling me aside saying we're really worried about you he's gone bananas and i'm like no you don't understand like i'm in on this thing like we're good don't worry about me. And even one of his friends, after he did the first race, you know, he was like, you know, the friend checked in and Rich was like, you know, I'm seeing, you know, like what comes next. And the friend was like, what are you talking about? There is nothing next. Go back to work. You know, like even after that. Who was that? I don't want to say. A good friend of ours, actually. So I guess what I'm saying is there

are little signs. You get little signs through the process and you get tests through the process. And I've said it before and many of you sent us messages when we were in one of those moments of literally feeling like we were complete losers. And then the way the universe times it is, then all of a sudden you get the email with like this long story, you know, and it's validation to keep going. So we are also connected. And so, you know, so a part of this earth school that we're in. And, you know, I don't know, I seriously looking back on it, I don't know how we did it. And, you know, Tyler and Trapper are in the room right now with us. And I have to say that, um, I'm not going to quiz you guys. Um, you know, these kids are part of it. If, if they

hadn't been our children and hadn't been with us, we wouldn't be sitting here like this. Because this experience brought us together as a family and they made the choice to support us in love. They weren't angry. They weren't demanding. They didn't think we were losers. They believed in us. And yet it was very challenging. Very challenging.

It needs to be acknowledged that they were compelled to you know suffer through some hardships you know in a in a way that i wouldn't wish on anybody and is you know reflecting back on it um you know it was very it was very difficult and they were amazing through it and i'm just i'm grateful that it didn't splinter our family or make them, you know, abandon us and say, I'm getting away from these people. Like the fact that they're here right now,

you know, and part of this retreat is, you know, a beautiful testament to their character and their heart. So thanks guys. So I have the mic and last year when you were So I have the mic. Last year when you were talking at the back of Happy Pair, I was there for some meeting you. And one thing that got me really interested or I could relate to you when someone asked, so, you know, what is the, like the, if you want to give me one advice, where should I start or something like that. And your answer was meditation. And that's something I could relate because, I mean, whatever reason.

So I'm just curious now, where is meditation and spirituality in your life? And I have more than one question. But somehow also, I'm very interested in the fact that I'm observing and seeing, and you're admitting that as well. You have different characteristics. And so I'm curious what brings you together and what separates you still. But in a kind of within this time frame of, you know, through this, what all these things are happening. Maybe it's too long, but maybe you can all bring it together. Thanks.

Wow, that's a big question. Well, the first part, you know, where is meditation and spirituality for me now? I stand by that response. That being said, as a human being living in the world, my meditation practice could be better. I'm not as diligent or as consistent as I should be or as I would like to be. But I remain steadfast that that is the path to move forward or to reconfigure your life and get it on the trajectory that you want, that you will find the answers that you are seeking through a consistent and serious practice of meditation.

That is a priority in your life. And as for the spirituality aspect of it you know we're spiritual beings having a human experience everything is a spiritual experience for me the races the training being here all of it you know it's all uh they're all just aspects of of an ongoing um spiritual practice and that's sort of how i look at it. I think, I forgot to ask this part of the question. Have you ever, like, actually used meditation as a part of this whole, you know, the last 10 years? Like, was meditation a big part of your practice ever?

And when did it come into your life, if it did ever? I mean, meditation first entered my life i mean my first introduction to meditation was in rehab in 1998 uh and then it's i've i've flirted with it and been on and off with it you know ever since that period of time and gone through periods where i was very serious about it and then lapsing and then back to it, et cetera. So, you know, it's an ongoing learning curve for me, very much so. Uh, and I would say, uh, you know, in, in sort of parallel with a formal meditation practice, the endurance training is very much an active meditation practice. I think qualitatively it's a different thing. I don't think it replaces like a formal sitting

meditation practice, but it's not without its benefits as well. So, you know, I've, I've always maintained, you know, that aspect of meditation has always been intact for me. So it's always informed like what I'm doing, what I'm doing. And it's always been, you know, a presence in my life ever since I got sober. Um, and then for the second, well, the second part of the question is, um, a presence in my life ever since I got sober. And then for the second part of the question is had to do with our relationship and what brings us together and what still separates us. What still separates us, Julie?

You don't want to take this one? I'm interested. Why don't you go and then I'll go. Let's see where they line up. By separation, are you asking about individuality between them? Or differences? Maybe what brings you together and what still keeps you apart. Where you can't meet each other still.

Right. Even though you might want to. I don't know. something like, you know, like ultimately you want to, I think what I see in relationships is we want to be seen and, you know, we want to see the other person, but sometimes we just don't feel like we can meet

on certain things, that we are very individual, which we can be comfortable, but sometimes we desire to, you know, so I don't know, something around that. Well, I think, you know, my attraction to Julie and, you know, what I see in her and what magnetizes me to her is, I mean, I think it's readily apparent, beautiful, strong woman who, you know, has a certain enthusiasm for life and a devotion to like constantly

bettering herself and pushing the boundaries on what is possible sort of in her own life i find inspiring you know like i when i i mean the first time i saw julia i was like i'm gonna marry that girl like i saw her in a yoga class and that's what happened. So I feel like in many ways, it's like, there's some bizarre, you know, past life thing or whatever that, that has compelled us to be together. But, you know, we've been together now 18 years. And I think what I saw in her then I still see in her today. And I'm inspired by her example because I've never seen somebody so committed to constant reinvention and somebody who is so convicted and strong about, uh, the possibility that, that is within all of us to like self-actualize. And I find that to be, you know, very compelling. And, you know, she's always be you know very compelling and you know she's always had

you know she's she's always supported me and always believed in me and and you know at times when nobody else did too she's always been able to have this laser-like ability to like see the best in others and believe in the the actualization of their best self. And I think that that's a rare quality in a human being. In terms of like what separates us, I mean, I think you've seen over the course of the week, like we're very different people. Like she's not going running in the morning, you know, and, you know, she's pushing the outer envelope

of like these, you know, some of the spirituality stuff that is definitely, you know, outside of my comfort zone and pushes me, you know, it's like, there's a, there's a good part of that too. Like I'm constantly being challenged and pushed to like, even, even just when I think like my mind is pretty fucking open, like she'll be like, she'll throw a curve ball at me and I'm like, yeah, I'm not seeing that, you know? So, and that's just, that's an ongoing thing, you know? So like, we're not always going to see eye to eye on that. And, you know, like I'm, I come from a very logic based, rational, you know, uh, you know, way of thinking and a very traditional, you know, formal education.

And Julie is, you know, she just has, she comes at things from a different angle. And I find that to be refreshing and interesting and sometimes comical and challenging and frustrating too, and frustrating. So I think, I think that there, I think think she would she would like me to be able to step over to her side a little bit more and at times i'm not ready to do that or i want to pivot in the other direction and perhaps that separates us but perhaps that's also part of the alchemy that makes our relationship work because they're you know as colin said in his beautiful presentation the other day life is about the yin and the yang, right?

And you can't have one without the other. And the alchemy of those two things is what, you know, creates balance. So between the two of us, we can anchor each other in different ways. You know, it's like I'm the ground and she's the air. Beautiful. Thank you. That's like I'm the ground and she's the air beautiful thank you it's nice sweetie um yeah I would say that um that we are very very different and that's both what separates us and brings us apart at the same time so um I think part or brings us together both I think... Does it separate or brings us together? Both. I think it does both. Because I think that... See, now he's all confused.

He's like, why did you say that? You said it does this and it does this, but those two things were the same thing. I said, no, it's... Okay, so the fact that we're different is the thing that brings us together and also the thing that separates us. So I think there's a reason that we're. So I think there's a reason that we're together

and I think there's a reason that the two different orientations to life have been paired because when you do that there's an opportunity for alchemy and if he was in a relationship with someone like him, or if I was in a relationship with someone like me, where would the healing be? Where would the tension be? Where would the friction? Where is the opportunity? And in my experience, I think in our minds, we think that's what we want. And in fact, when we find ourselves in those kind of relationships they don't really have the tension to keep them for long range in addition to that um uh that can be super frustrating for

both of us um because we're just oriented to life in a completely different way. And so sometimes it's a lot of heavy lifting, you know, it just seems so like, you know, so much work for us to get to a place where we can, you know, not only coexist, but co-create, say that. So I would say that we are both very blessed that our life has given us this opportunity and that we've had the kind of relationship that we are both very blessed that our life has given us this opportunity and that we've had the kind of relationship that we've had together because it's it's been a very deep relationship a very honest relationship of many colors of experience and I would say that beneath it is this past remembrance and this deep, deep love and commitment that somehow, even beneath the huge polarity between the two of us, there is a knowing and a commitment that

we really want to be together. So that's, you know, we talk about sometimes freedom and commitment. Like that's freedom and commitment. We have such a commitment that we're able to be free to a certain extent and sometimes we we irritate the shit out of each other like at a level that's like you know stellar and then uh you know as far as our love for each other the way that are the way that we're paired together is the deepest intimacy the deepest beauty the deepest union ever experienced so yeah i think it's a big huge um universe of differences and somehow you know it it meets in certain places and there's magic created and this setup that you guys are blessing us with right now that we're sitting here like speaking into microphones and recording this you guys bless us because we get to talk about this and we get to be reminded of it.

So it's really, you're really honoring us by allowing us to share these inner workings of our relationship. And it reminds us again and again and again. So when I say that Rich and I bond when we do a podcast together, it's actually true. It's not, we laugh about it but Andrew and Claire you're you know you're experiencing it it's crazy when you sit down to talk on that level because otherwise life is so busy you would never have that kind of conversation with your husband with your wife with your partner with your lover whatever it is so anyway thanks for asking that question

just one point related to Andrew it is. So anyway, thanks for asking that question. I think I mentioned it the other day, but I'm in the middle of Sharon Salzberg's book, real love, and just from an observational perspective and recommended reading for everybody, by the way, it's a, it's a great book. It's not a quick read, but, um, it's very, uh, very applicable to any relationship you have starting with yourself and then reflect it onto others. But, you know, observationally, I think you're both at a point, uh, where you're very much, um, accepting of not just each other, but anybody. And, you know, you just mentioned it, like Julie brings views and you kind of think maybe they're fringe or out there, but you think about

it and, you know, you're not closed. So I think in, in, in what she points out in her book is it's very much about that, you know, first foundationally accepting yourself and, and, uh, similar to what Colin's been saying, going inward and trying to understand what are your motivations for resistances or, you know, when, whenever you feel yourself closing off, but then very much about accepting a partner as an individual and being open to, you know, them being their own individual. And, and, and it's how you, that's how you go about crossing that gap towards each other that, that sustains a relationship. And, uh, it's very much go about crossing that gap towards each other that sustains a relationship. And it's very much about accepting and trust and all that.

So, you know, I see that very much in both of you towards each other. And like I said, towards everybody else. So it's a beautiful thing to observe and very inspirational. Yeah, thank you. I mean, yeah, it's a beautiful point. I mean, I don't, you know, I reached this point where it's like, Oh, I don't need her to like, see the world the way that I see it. And she doesn't need me to see the world, you know, like maybe that would be nice, but like, is that a fundamental requirement of being in a, in a,

in a great relationship? Like, you know, allowing her the freedom to see things the way that she sees them without me attempting to control or divert or, you know, change that is, is, is almost like, it's kind of like a relief too. And I think it creates that space. And when there's mutual respect, it's like, okay, we can coexist. Hopefully more than coexist. Yeah, I mean, that's like a... Yeah, we can like... Just so you know, I'm looking for more.

We can tolerate each other. That's the wrong choice of words, admittedly. You done with that? If we do that, then we can stand each other. Can I ask you, Rich and Julie, about creative output to inspire other people? Clearly, you two are on a path of providing great creative content through podcasts, books, retreats, many other things to inspire people and and myself and claire and probably many other people in the room are switching our our plans in life perhaps to to do the same thing and i guess i sometimes struggle with working out how to do that and maximize the output to the to

the world and i'm interested in your thoughts on this clearly from what julie's taught us this week you know it's about being in joy and doing stuff that the universe kind of channels through us that's the first point but then once you're doing that how do you get it out to the world how do you be like the happy pale lads or how do you get into the top 150 itunes podcasts or whatever it is i i'm like you rich i'm sitting there looking at itunes how have we gone this week? Are we anywhere near rich? And yet that doesn't matter. I understand that if we deliver great content, we're probably more likely to change people than we are to get more likes and more listens even, perhaps to a podcast.

And same with books. 6,000 books is a lot of books to sell, but in one way that's nothing when you think of the population of America, let alone the world. So how do we do that? Is it just delivering great, great, great content? Or is it about promoting the work in a really valuable way? And have you got any tips for how to do the latter if you think that's important, the promotion?

Well, it's certainly both. You have to create great content and then you have to be able to get it out into the world in the most effective way possible in terms of creating the content itself. Um, you know, with all these sort of platforms now on which to share, you know, what you're doing, there's no end to the amount of content that you can create. So I think a couple things. The first thing is you've got to get really clear on what the content is that you're creating and make concise decisions about what that looks like, the form that it takes, and the delivery system for it.

Because otherwise you can just get distracted and be kind of half-assing content on 20 different platforms and not really making any impact. So I think that has to come first. And then second to that, you have to create systems. You have to set up systems so that the content that you're creating becomes sustainable within the construct of your lifestyle. Because if you're having to pull all-nighters twice a week to do this podcast or whatever, and you're trying to practice medicine, you're not going to be able to sustain it. You're going to burn out, or you're going to make yourself crazy, or you're going to start resenting the process of creating the content, which is going to affect the quality of it.

So you need to make investments in whether it's, you know, hiring other people to help you or getting clear about how you're allocating your time and getting rid of, you know, other things in learned this by making many mistakes in this regard. And then you try to make the best content that you can. What is the highest caliber, you know, information that you can deliver? And I think part of that is getting clear on who your audience is. Who are you trying to impact? What is it that they need to hear from you and how can you deliver that in, in the most cogent, concise, clear way that will, uh, you know, be, that will ensure that we'll have the impact that the desired impact that you're trying to have. Right. And so is it everybody in the world?

Probably not. Like, I think you're pretty clear on who your audience is. And I think what's great about that is you don't have to like you're Not speaking to the entire planet, right? like you have to Figure out who these people are how to appeal to them and then cultivate that audience and I think the more you focus on Retaining the people that are already tuned into what you're doing as opposed to trying to grow it You'll be better off like how can you just be of service to the people

that are already psyched about what you're doing? And I think when you're in that mindset, the growth will come as, you know, an ancillary byproduct of that. Everybody's looking to grow. How can I get more followers? How can I get blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? How about just taking, even if you got 50 people that are listening to you, take care of them.

Like, you got 50 people that, I I mean it's getting harder and harder to Capture people's attention because it's diffused across all of these platforms like look at you know television as an as an analogy We went from three or four channels to like a bazillion channels the numbers that a hit TV show You know used to get in 1986 versus now, it's a totally different thing. So it's not about millions and millions of people. It's about a certain, you know, small slice of the population that gets attuned, you know, that's tuning their radio to your frequency and just making sure that you're taking care of them. And within that, once you're clear on that, then there are tools that you can leverage to try to, you know, maximize the, you know, the, the marketing, you know, impact the reach of what

you're trying to do. And it's about being smart with your time. Like what's the most impact that you can have with the least amount of dollars and time, uh, you know, exerted. So I think as a podcaster, you're, you're smart to guest on other people's podcasts that are doing things in your sector or a little bit left of field of your sector. So you're reaching new people. It's an effective use of your time. There are, you know, who are the, you know, so you're looking, you're trying to impact medical professionals, doctors, right? When you go to conferences, how are you spreading the word about your podcast? Could you get a booth set up or could you create some kind of fun contest around what you're doing? Like do a live podcast with another doctor or, you know, there's, there's plenty of like creative ways that you can

expand the reach of what you're trying to do within the subculture that the population of people to whom what you're doing would appeal and i'm happy to talk to you about like the specifics and the details of that but thanks for being on a top level that's what i and uh yeah i would say um your greatest asset is knowing who you are and expressing that authentically and so i think that there's a lot of noise going on and we can look around in our section of whatever you know fishbowl we're operating in and you can start to spend a lot of time and a lot of energy looking out oh this person's doing that oh look at that person does it that way oh that person does it that way and some of that's good just to sort of get a lay of the land but I think again going back to the internal work of finding out who you are

and really being that completely raw unapologetic and very clearly I've noticed you know it might build more slowly it's like you know we're not interested in buying any followers or figuring out how to manipulate any followers I think this whole kind of old paradigm marketing of manipulation is something that needs to be really you know looked at and that's not really anything any of us in the room are interested in and I think it's the clear voice it's that truth that gets people to connect to you and maybe if you have less followers those people are really bonded to you. So it's not just a number on a page for a sponsor, obviously. And, you know, Rich and I go back and forth with this a lot because obviously, you know,

we are in social media and we are interested. I mean, I sold 6,000 books in the beginning launch of the book of This Cheese is Nuts, but that took an extreme amount of effort from Rich, from me, from Leah, from our collective team. I mean, it was a lot of movement to get that birthed at that initial level. And now, you know, it's off and running and it's going to have a good life. But what I do notice is these marketing programs that marketers know about, and they're these pre-made systems where they have a certain amount of emails and a certain amount of content, and you give this much free,

and then at the end you give them a gift, but you don't really give them a gift because then they click on it and they've got to buy something. And it's like you can just feel the vibration of that. It's so annoying, you know, and it's not something Rich and I ever wanted to be a part of. And we've been, you know, solicited and people have begged us and told us that we should be doing that. And we're looking at other people making a lot more money than we are, you know, like they seem to be doing better in the space, but we just can't do it that way. So, and I would say spiritually with the new paradigm as well, any manipulation is not a high vibrational act.

So everything that we're doing is an offering. It's an offering of true experience. And watch yourself anytime you try to pitch something or spin it or, you know, in that old way of trying to make somebody do something. Because that's not a balanced act spiritually. So. Yeah, you know, as a caveat to that, I would close it with saying that authenticity is everything, you know? And so you just have to be really true to who you are and not, and not try to be somebody else or who you think this, you know, audience person wants you to be or thinks that you should be. And I think as people get more and more, um, you know, savvy with the internet, their radar is so attuned to anything that is just the

slightest bit like fake or affected. It's like done with that, you know? And so I think it becomes more and more important to just be really, you know, honest with yourself and as real as possible with what you're doing. Yeah. I have a, uh, I'd like to shift a little bit. I know a lot about rich from the book and the podcast and all that. And, and Julie, I know a little less about you. I'd be interested to understand kind of what called you and how you arrived to where you are today. And, um, earlier, I think it was earlier today, you mentioned you were kind of told to shift uh careers earlier but by that thing yeah called to uh to action but i don't think that was kind of you know but how did you come to be uh am i here yeah oh my god i've had so many lifetimes i thought this is an ama about

like training and like nutrition can't all be about you all the time. What do you mean? This whole retreat has been about Julie's adventures. What's your yogi training regimen? And he wants to know more. Um, yeah, so this will be the last question and I'll just answer this. Sorry. You just took over. See, she just took over my whole AMA. Um, so, um, you know, I've, I've been married three times, so I didn't know if you know that. I've had a lot of life experience. I was raised in Alaska, and I went to, very proudly went to Arizona State, which Rich does not recognize as a real institution. That's not true. No.

I got a business degree, actually, and lived in France in college, so I learned to speak French. I was always good at language. I came back, and I ended up moving to L.A. and got into the garment business. My mom had had a clothing store her whole life. She had it for 40 years, so I worked there as a kid I was way overdressed in Alaska wearing threads that were way beyond the environment and but I always liked fashion and I ended up in sales there and then eventually became a designer and I had my own fashion house so I was

a manufacturer and I had 15 subcontractors and i manufactured a 36 piece line and i sold all the big stores in the country and it seemed like you know i had made it i was on the cover of women's wear daily my line was and uh i found out after working myself to the bone for seven years that all the people that i'd seen driving the Maseratis were just leveraged to the hilt. And it was rife for attracting. He's like, yeah. Right? That's Justin nodding his head.

So what happened is what I figured out is that the industry called forth a certain kind of personality, which was flamboyant and very extreme. And so much to my defeat, I found out that I've been working myself to the bone for no available profit margin, basically. And I had just given birth to the two boys during that time, so I was going to my manufacturing company and nursing and just trying to handle everything. So I decided to close my company

after I worked very hard for about six years and it was devastating to me because I was a very prolific designer and I was not I my my clothes were beautiful and a lot of people were wearing them in the community in LA and but I could see that this was never going to end that this was a mania that is a like a factor of the fashion business like you're always just you know I would meet you and then I'd be like who made that who made that shirt you're just obsessed trying to get on the next trend because it's so manic and I realized like you know you would project it out like well if you're Calvin Klein then it's different but then I read Calvin Klein's biography and it's not it. It's just a bigger bowl, you know? So I made the decision

to close the company, had basically a breakdown for about a month. It's devastated, broke my heart, literally. And then I found yoga and I started practicing yoga. I built two homes during a period of maybe four years. And it was a very soft pace, like a calm pace for me because I was used to doing thousands of units at a time kind of problems, like garment production is insane. It's insanity. And it costs so much money and so much, so many people touch it and there's so much waste. And then we've, we've trained the culture to expect to buy something for nothing. So you're making these beautiful pieces, but nobody wants to pay for them. So, um, luckily for me, I found yoga. I got to spend a lot of time with my boys when they were little, cause you know, I, I dropped out pretty soon after I gave birth to them. And, uh, and then I, uh, my relationship with the boys, dad came to a close after 10 years,

a very wonderful, beautiful relationship, absolutely almost fairy tale in character. And then I went off on my own in spiritual pursuit. It was really the spiritual calling came and it came so strong that I couldn't stay. And it was very difficult because I lived in a beautiful home that I had just built and I had these two beautiful boys and we had had this really amazing marriage and to face that that was what had to happen at that time was, I mean, people thought I was crazy. They thought I was insane, like she's in a cult or it didn't make any sense. Um, and that was the calling that sort of started my spiritual quest, my reconnection. I was always like this since I was little. I was always, always looking for what was beyond this life. And I think when I met Rich, we were in a yoga class,

the same yoga class. And he wanted to meet somebody very young without any baggage. And I didn't want to meet anybody at all. And we met very, you know, just karmically, really serendipitously. And immediately I knew he was, you know, a marrying, I was like, I kind of like, oh no, like this is a marrying guy. And I was more, yeah, I was more complicated because I had two kids and was older than he was. But you know, life does that to you when you make plans. So we dated for like nine months and it was great. The circumstances allowed really well because I had the kids every other week and I wouldn't introduce him to the children. So on the weeks that I didn't have the kids, I was his girlfriend. And on the weeks that I had

the kids, he didn't see the kids. So it was good because I think it would have been scary for him, you know, if it had been like, oh, I have, you know, these children. So anyway, so nine months after that, we, um, we fell into, you know, a deeper relationship with each other. And then it's been, uh, this kind of experience. But, but when I met Rich, I had already been an entrepreneur. I had built one home on my own and then was in the process of building the house that we're in when I met him. So the house that we built, it was my expression, my project, my thing. And then we ended up in this relationship together. And before we did, you know, ultras and before all that came, I had a company called Jai Yoga, and I was doing international retreats. And we were doing retreats in Italy twice a year at this location,

which we are at. And then we also did a couple trips on a sailboat, which were hilarious. And we did a couple trips in Mexico. So I was already kind of doing this high-end, you know, yoga experience. And they were extremely profound. And all we were doing was practicing yoga. There was no book. There was no message or program. And already huge changes happening. So Rich and I knew when we brought this back around that it was going to be really profound. It was going to be to be super super deep so you guys are kind of like you know the latest culmination of that whole experience that started so long ago like you know many many years ago and so

you know I did interior design for a couple years when I built my house I worked with Lorcan O'Hurley who was the architect of our home a world-renowned Irish architect who was raised in Ireland and also in Malibu. And I did kitchens for his buildings and continued doing that. I was paid in euros. So I was making a lot, you know, a fair amount of money for the early years of our marriage. And then Rich wanted to write write he wanted to be a movie director and so he basically uh i wrote a 96 page script called down dog it's a satire about yoga in the western uh community and uh i asked rich to write the script and so he spent a couple years at least working on that script and writing it and developing it into a full feature and We decided to shoot a short from that so rich directed that short I was pregnant with Mathis our first daughter together and when we went into the shoot

I was dilated to four and it was a three-day shoot and my doctor told me to drink wine and sit down to stop the labor so uh we we were doing that shoot and it was great we that's when we really discovered that we worked really really well together we just we're really good on set we have different you know different talents but really really worked well and then at the end of that we thought um that we were gonna be in the movie business because we almost set up down dog with matthew mcconaughey and yeah the short film like did the festival circuit and it played at like 20 festivals and it won awards and like a lot of people saw it this is like pre-youtube so it wasn't like an online thing like we were traveling around and like presenting the movie at all these at all these festivals and then the feature the reason for doing that short was to use it as a like a calling card for the feature because I wanted to direct the feature

and so we were trying to set up the feature film version of this and we had a moment there was like a five minute window where like Matthewthew mcconaughey was attached to star to this movie and his production company like the development executive production company was like this is the best script i've read all year and i was like we're gonna make a movie with matthew mcconaughey like it's like insane you know this weird insane thing like and then it and then uh there was that i don't know if you remember. Surfer dude. Well, two things happened. There was a movie called The Love Guru that Mike Myers did. It was a really bad movie. That came out in tanked.

And our project was very different from that, but it was in the vein of spiritual guru comedy. And because that movie did so poorly, we knew no studio was going to say yes to this movie. And then Matthew McConaughey, poorly like we knew like nobody with no studio was gonna say yes to this movie and then matthew mcconaughey this is pre this is before matthew mcconaughey made his his like re-emergence as this major talented movie star made every right decision he did a little movie that he produced that his production company produced called surfer dude that did really poorly and there were certain aspects of the character that were similar to the character in our movie and so the whole thing fell

apart and i was like no one's going to make this movie and the script just went into a drawer and disappeared and then we got dismantled yeah then we had so then that happened so anyway yeah so when when i got the i actually um was doing interior design um i got the message from the universe that i needed to sit down. It was the first time in my entire life I started working when I was 12. I lied about my age and worked at Burger King on the cheeseboard. So no one ever asked you for your ID back then. So you could just say whatever you wanted. And you know, I was serving cocktails when I was underage, you know, just crazy life in Alaska. So for the first time in my entire life, I got the message very clear.

It was an ominous message that I had to stop working. And if I didn't stop, there would be a lawsuit or something very bad. So I completely stopped working and basically told Rich to take the reins. And he was in the middle of leaving his law practice. There was really not a lot of reins to be taken. And we had done location shooting at our house, which has been a real blessing. She's like an actress and we've been filming there for many, many years. But during this time when we got dismantled, the universe just turned the faucet clean off. So there we weren't even booking our house.

clean off so there we weren't even booking our house it just was not available to us and I know that spiritually this was an opportunity for us to be alchemized into being able to sit here with you at this level because had we not gone through that we wouldn't carry the frequency of really understanding what it is if you don't really go through the alchemy process then you're just like you know Derek Zoolander I want to make a school for kids who can't read good which sounds really nice like on the surface but you know where is it really vibrating from so if we had known it was going to take this long it would have been a lot harder for us you know and I would say during those years Rich's training was working for him and my music was working for me and the boys and so we spent all the time we could on those two pursuits and then just dealt with the war in the in-between times and we we learned to be neutral

we learned to not react and we knew we learned to drop our judgment about who we were as a result of life circumstances. So it was quite a training. And it was quite long. But, you know, in relative it was also, you know, it's also not really. It was also blessed because we were living in this privileged house and we're all healthy and we're alive, you know, so we were together. So that's a little background about, you know,

how I came to this point and when Rich's story was picked up and he came out into the forefront, I got asked by some woman on a podcast, you know, like, you know, how do you handle, you know, with, you know, the fact that, you know, you've never done anything and Rich is doing this, you know. And I was kind of like, yeah, no, you know, I've done a lot. It was just, you know, everybody has different times in their life. So it's been a journey and it was the path. You know, Rich was supposed to come out first, and, you know, I'm just getting started.

Like, I've just, the food was kind of the first little level, and I'm working on my own memoir, and I'm going to be sharing yoga in a much deeper way. And I'm also, like all of you, the reason that I designed the program for you guys is because, you know, I'm trying to get very real on what is the highest use of my energy and what do I want to be spending the time doing.

There's lots of things I could be doing. But one thing I will say just to close is that being here with you guys on retreat is at the top of that list. It's such an immense privilege to be able to spend this kind of time together around these subjects coming together too from all different walks of life. It's like when, when else are we brought

together? And as I said at the beginning of the week, it is definitely a divine appointment for me. Like all of you, I am well aware that we are connected on a soul level. It is not, it is no small feat, no matter how you made it into this room, it is just, there is no accident. And so, it's really a privilege. So thank you all for coming. Yeah. And I would echo that as well. Being here this week has been amazing and it's the group has just been incredible and i don't know you know what we did to have this group delivered to us like there's no drama like everyone's getting along like it's just like you know no problems at least as far as i know like i don't know you know but um no beautiful and i'm just i'm so thrilled to be able to be here with you guys

and get to share a little bit about what we do, of course, but to hear about your stories and to connect with all of you. It's been really, really cool. That's it. That's it. Cool. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. I think we did it.

How do you guys feel? You feel good? You feel all right? Did we do it? All right. Peace. Let's. All right. I hope you guys enjoyed that. I hope you got some good, positive information and inspiration out of that discussion. I just love doing these retreats. We've done three now.

They've been amazing, life transformative for myself and also for all of those who attended. And it's been a beautiful experience to just grow close to all of the people that have joined us on these events. Not only have they become tribe members, they're like family members. They visit us. We're connected with everybody who has attended. And it's just been a beautiful experience. So if this sounds like something you would like to experience for yourself, we're doing our next retreat in May in Italy. For more information on that, go to ourplantpowerworld.com. Also wanted to point out, once again, we have this incredible meal planner product, the Plant Power Meal Planner. So if you're struggling with how to

eat plant-based, how do you make it stick? How do you make it work? I'm busy. I don't have time. I don't know how to cook. I don't own any cookbooks, whatever. We have solved all of these problems. It's an incredibly robust, mobile-friendly tool that takes all the mystery and guesswork out of the whole affair at an incredibly affordable $1.90 a week. Thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans, and grocery lists. We're metric system compliant. Everything is completely personalized and customized based on your goals and food preferences and time constraints.

We have an incredible customer support team available to you seven days a week. Experts, people who live and breathe this stuff, people with graduate degrees, parents, athletes. We have grocery delivery in, I think, up to 60 metropolitan areas at this point. Again, we're getting great feedback, amazing responses from people that are using this, relying on it. It's really changing their lives and I'm really proud of it. So for more information and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on meal planner on the top menu at richroll.com. Finally, today is my 51st birthday. I don't need anything. I don't want anything other than your help, your help to help me and Charity Water provide clean water to those most in need.

We've raised over $36,000 in this campaign to date. I really would like to get to $51,000. This is, we're in the final stretch here to make this happen. So if you've been sitting on your butt thinking about doing this, but haven't quite acted yet, now is the time. So please go to my.charitywater.org for a rich roll. It's the giving season. Please consider a one-time gift of $51.

If that's too much, every dollar counts. I get it. And I thank you tremendously. If you would like to support this show and my work, there's a couple simple ways to do that. Share it with your friends and on social media. Leave a review on iTunes. Hit that subscribe button on iTunes. Also, we have a Patreon for people that want to financially support my work.

And I thank everybody who has contributed to that. It just warms my heart. And I've got some cool news on that. I've been thinking about how I can reward people who have contributed on Patreon. And I think a cool way to do that is to begin a monthly live video AMA, Ask Me Anything, for Patreon supporters, kind of like the AMA that we just did in today's episode, but only available to those that have contributed that support my work on Patreon. I'm going to keep you guys posted on when the first one will be.

I'll let everybody on Patreon know that. And I'm looking into how exactly we're going to pull it off. But I know that Patreon has a set of tools that will allow us to do that. And I'm excited about connecting with you guys in that way, in that manner. And again, I'll keep you posted. If you would like to receive a free short semi-weekly, sometimes weekly email from me, I send one out every week, pretty much every week, not every week, but most weeks. It's called Roll Call.

Five or six things I've come across over the course of a week, usually a couple articles I read, a documentary I watched, a video I watched, a product I'm enjoying, a podcast I listened to, just inspiring things, informative things that I thought worthy of sharing with you guys. No affiliate links.

I'm not trying to sell you anything or anything like that. So if that sounds interesting to you, people seem to really be enjoying it. You can sign up in any of those email capture windows on my website at richroll.com. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production and help on the show notes.

This is his 100th episode with you guys. So give him a shout out on Twitter or Instagram at Jason Camiolo, C-A-M-I-O-L-O, and thank him for all the hard work that he has put into this show. And personally, I thank you, Jason. You're doing a great job. Sean Patterson for Help on Graphics, David Zamet, who has come on board to video the podcast and take portraits of the guests. He's doing an amazing job as well. And theme music, as always, by Annalema. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you soon, back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode of the podcast. I appreciate your support.

Appreciate listening. Be well. Have a great week. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.