The Rich Roll Podcast - Athletic Prowess on a Plant-Based Diet

Episode Date: August 22, 2013

Today on the show I sit down with my friend Mac Danzig, a fascinating PlantPowered force in the MMA / UFC world. Before we go any further, throw away any UFC fighter stereotypes that may come to mind. Mac is one of the more intelligent, introspective and out-of-the box thinkers you are likely to meet — a personality and perspective forged from transcending a challenging upbringing to rise to the highest echelons of the UFC, including victory in Season 6 of the Ultimate Fighter and a decorated career that includes twelve consecutive wins in 2006. Accomplishments all achieved on a 100% plant-based diet. I first met Mac a couple years ago and was immediately struck by his contemplative, low key personality. A guy at peace with himself, far more comfortable alone in nature than navigating the spotlight. A guy who really thinks about the authenticity of his actions, his place in the world, how to best father his daughter Nova, and the impact his decisions have on others and the planet at large. So it was fascinating to finally sit down with him and hash it out. Not short on opinions, Mac broke my record in episode length today, exceeding 3 hours and expounding upon everything from his career and diet (of course) to the benefits of meditation, the perils of our education system and sport as art. Yeah, it's a long one. I know. But I am really proud of this interview and essentially guarantee that you will be completely engaged throughout. It's one thing when a triathlete, marathoner or an ultra-runner demonstrates plantpowered prowess. We've seen that. But what about an athlete whose success depends upon brute strength, lightning speed, incredible power and world-class agility? Well that's another thing altogether. Simply put, Mac's success takes all the wind out of the tired argument that you cannot excel athletically on a plant-based diet. Now Mac is taking his game to a whole new level, experimenting with the 80/10/10 Diet – a regimen heralded by Douglas Graham in which 80% of all calories come from carbohydrates, 10% from protein and 10% from fat. Translation? Most of what he eats is fruit — a protocol that stands in direct counterpoint to the high fashion, high fat, low carb craze currently in vogue. How is it working for Mac? You'll have to listen to the whole episode to find out. It might take a few sittings, but I promise it's worth your time investment. I genuinely hope you enjoy the show. Rich

Welcome to episode 45 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Mac Danzig. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Today we have a complete treat for you guys. My buddy Mac Danzig, as Joe Rogan would say, the powerful Mac Danzig is on the show. Mac is a mixed martial artist and a plant-powered one at that. He's conquered the UFC. He's quite accomplished in his craft, in his art, in his sport. And he sits down with me today to talk all about it, what his life is like and his evolution as an athlete, as a dad, as an artist, what his diet is like. I believe he's the only 100% vegan athlete in the UFC.

I could be wrong. I mean, I know there's a lot of other guys that play around with a plant-based diet. They'll eat a plant-based diet during certain rigorous parts of their training or in prep for a fight, but then they go off it in the off season. Or there's lots of vegetarian guys. And I know that plant-based nutrition has really picked up steam in the mixed martial arts community. There's a lot of athletes playing around with it right now. But Mac is really the guy who's carrying the torch. He's been doing it for a long time.

He's had a lot of success with it. And we sit down today and talk all about it. We talk about what it's like to be a professional athlete and a dad, what his perspective is throughout his career, all the ups and downs, how his diet has changed. He's recently, and very interestingly, adopted the 80-10-10 diet, which is based on Douglas Graham's book, which is a diet predominantly composed of eating, well, lots of fruit, 80% carbohydrates, 10% protein, 10% fat. He just started doing it about four months ago. He did it in preparation for his most recent fight. And he sits down and talks about how he's feeling and his perspective

on how his plant-based or vegan diet has evolved over time. And it's really interesting. It bears a striking resemblance to how my former guest, Michael Arnstein, the fruitarian, speaks about what it's like to eat this way. And it's pretty compelling. So we don't get into that part until, I think think the last 30, 35 minutes of the show. So please stick with it. You'll want to hear that part of it.

But Mac's a great guy. He's a great ambassador of sport. He's a very insightful, thoughtful guy. And he has a lot of opinions about a lot of things. And we get into all sorts of issues from education to what he's interested in doing after his career, and of course all the diet and training stuff. And we talk about the mental aspect of sport and how meditation and yoga has kind of taken him to a new level, and it's really, really interesting stuff.

But it is epically long, and I realize that, so I'm going to dispense with all the introductory remarks so we can get right into it. I do want to say that I am going to be traveling coming up, so I wanted to share a few dates with you. September 7th, I'm going to be in Toronto at the Toronto VegFest. I'm speaking that Saturday night. I believe that's the 7th, Toronto VegFest. I'm speaking that Saturday night. I believe that's the 7th. I'm delivering a keynote, and it's a huge event. So it's really fun. I did it last year. If you happen to be in Toronto or you're in the vicinity, come and check it out. It's really a good time. And I think I'm also doing a panel with a couple other athletes like James Wilkes, who's been on the show before, I believe John Pierre, who's a plant-based trainer, and a couple other guys, my friend Joseph Pace, maybe Mike Sigomonas, I'm not sure, who's a

NHL player, plant-based athlete. But check it out. If you want to learn more about that, go to festival.veg.ca. And I'm going to be in Tucson on September 21st delivering another keynote there. It's part of an organization called the Healthy You Network. So if you're in Tucson or in the vicinity, come and check that out. For more information, you can go to healthyunetwork.org. Thank you, thank you, thank you for everybody who has been supporting the show. The comments have been amazing. We appreciate all the support. If you want to support, you can use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com on the podcast page and on the blog page. If you're going to buy something on Amazon, just click that banner ad. It takes you right to Amazon. Get whatever you're going to get. No additional cost to you. Amazon kicks us

some loose change and helps keep the lights on over here. You can also, oh, and I wanted to say one thing, which is I've been getting some emails from people in Europe and in the United Kingdom saying, hey, you know, I want to support the show. I want to use the Amazon banner ad, but it's only for the U.S. Please put up an Amazon banner ad that works in the U.K. So we're working on that. We're going to get that resolved in the next week or so. So stay tuned, and I appreciate the heads up on that.

You can also donate to the show. You can throw us some loose change on a one-time basis, on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis. It's up to you. You know, a dollar, five dollars, ten dollars, whatever you want. People have been doing that and it warms my heart. Thank you so much for all the support with that. It's been great. And one final thing I want to point out, which is I wrote my most recent blog post at richroll.com. It was about my buddy Matt Frazier's new program called Triathlon Roadmap, the plant-based guide to conquering your first triathlon. So for those of you out there who are interested in getting involved in triathlon,

are interested in eating more plants. He's come up with this really great program. It's all downloadable that will take you through everything you need to know to prepare for your first triathlon. It's got a training program. It's got a meal plan. It's got recipes. It's got all these tips and all the sort of tools that you need to get going. It takes all the mystery out of it, and it's great. Go to richroll.com. You can find that blog post and click the hyperlinks over to his site to learn more and to purchase the product. Of course, you can go to nomeatathlete.com and do it that way, but I've got an affiliate

relationship with Matt, so if you go to my site first and click over, then he throws me a few bucks for every one of those purchases. It's a great way to continue to support the show, just in full disclosure. I love Matt. I stand behind this product. He's great. He's a great guy. He always puts high-quality content out there, and I think we should support him. He's also got a program for somebody who's preparing for their first marathon or for their first half marathon. So you can check all that stuff out there. So thank you so much for all the support.

My only goal here is to bring you the brightest, most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting personalities in health, fitness, and wellness so that they can share their stories and their wealth of information. You can take that information. Take what works for you, dispense with the rest, and hopefully incorporate that into your life so that you can unlock and unleash the best, most authentic version of yourself. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life.

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Thanks for coming along for the ride. Today's a good one. It's a long one, but it's worth it. Mac is a great guy. This is pure gold. So I hope you stick with it all the way to the end. Thanks for joining me.

And without further ado, enjoy the show. Ladies and gentlemen, Mac Danzig. Let's see. You don't have to use the uh headphones if you don't want to okay um but you can i i use them just so i know yeah yeah i can tell and yeah that way it'll remind me if i start pulling my head away because you know how it is you gotta kind of chew on the mic a little yeah yeah definitely so yeah man i think we uh we're already rolling by the way all right okay all right i think we uh yeah we started you started your podcast right around the same time yeah as i did and i was like oh that's awesome yeah and then one day i saw a tweet and you were like i just can't keep up with you know it's like and we were just talking just talking beforehand about how much work it is.

It's really like, you know, I made the decision to just be committed to it. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't like commandeered like a huge part of my life. You know, it's like it takes hours and hours and hours to get it up when you're done and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, with me it was like I have all these great ideas and I have these great contacts and contacts and friends of friends and colleagues and everything and all these really interesting people that I felt I could have a really great dialogue with and the viewership would be good and a lot of people would be really interested in doing it.

And that's why i started it and then it started off great and everyone liked it but um but yeah there's so much more to it than just like pressing record and then just being like you're done yeah it's if it was as easy as just pressing record and then like clicking a few buttons to upload it then it wouldn't be an issue but it was very very time consuming and and um you know like being being the dad you know it's it's so hard for me to right do that yeah and then the the full-time training on top of that and to me like a lot of people were like well why don't you just do one once a month and we'll be happy with that. And that's true, but if I do something,

I want to do it all the way. I rarely dabble in anything. It's all or nothing for me. I can relate. The easiest part is this part. If you could just be like, okay, I'm done, and then know that everything else got taken care of and it got uploaded,

that would be great. Because you did Rogan right before I did. I want to talk about that a little bit. But he's like, all right, that was awesome. And then he drives away, and I don't think he touches a computer. From his perspective, Red Band takes care of all of it. The dude Red Band does everything. And if I had my version of Red Band, blue band, green band, whatever,

if I had a guy like that, then I could do my own and it wouldn't be that much of an issue. And I've had people that actually, I kind of explained that on Twitter and I had a few people that reached out and said that they could help. And I might take them up on it. It is something that I really want to do. I just have to decide what I'm doing. Because with full-time training and getting ready for fights

and full-time parenthood, it's tricky. So when I decide what direction I'm going in my life and really decide what options I have, then I would love to, you know, start doing that again and then commit to it the way that you have. And I, I mean, it was, it was successful. I only did like five of them and it was really popular. Right up at the top of iTunes, like immediately. Yeah. And then, and then it's just, you know, and then I have, I have a few like weird issues. Like I, I, I find it hard to pretend that I'm some sort of talk show host.

And what's great about... But you don't have to do that with podcasts. I know, I know. That's what's great about podcasts is you don't necessarily have to do that. But I wanted everything to be 100% authentic. And it was like 99.9% authentic. You know what I mean? So it was just....9% authentic. You know what I mean? So it was just, I don't know.

I got some things I got to figure out, but I would definitely like to start it up again and get it going again. Yeah, so if you could just do the interview part and then hand it over to somebody to have it taken care of. Yeah, just what needs to be done is like some editing. You know, every now and then,

we would all like to just be able to throw up whatever you know happens from the moment that you start recording to the moment that you stop recording but we know that that's uh that there's more to it than that and so a little bit of editing here and there reviewing it and then um fixing the audio and everything because i got so many complaints about the audio i don't even know what to do i'm not an audio guy i'm a visual guy so i and then um uh the intro and the outro and then uploading it to a server that will hold it and then once you do that tagging it and keywording it it Oh, it just takes, it's not hard. It's just like, okay, now I do this and now I do that. Yeah, like you're on an assembly line for everyone.

Yeah, yeah. So then you upload it to that. And then once it's ready and it recognizes it, then you go to iTunes. Then you go to, you know, what's the other, Stitcher? Stitcher. Yeah, all these other ones that you go and you do that. And then, okay, well, let's make one for YouTube and Vimeo.

Okay, well, we got to add a video thing to it. I'll put it into Final Cut Pro. Okay, it's loading up. It's rendering. Oh, Final Cut Pro says it's going to be four hours if you want good quality audio. And I'm just like, ah. I know.

Just for your one episode. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. You just explained my life. Yeah. I just put one up today actually it went up last night but I literally I spent like a huge part of my weekend you know doing it so but uh but I have an idea for you we can talk about it afterwards yeah okay

yeah but I mean you bring it back yeah for sure you know these these types of commitments are good though because like all that you're putting in now you know you're building something and that's what you know everything that any of us have ever done that we've been passionate about look back on it and you're like oh man that was really hard work but when you commit to something like that then then it all pays off because you're really building something you know what i mean and so so like if i can find the time to commit i can i can do it i just need to figure it out well uh yeah we'll talk later about that because i'd love to help you with that and i'd love to see you bring it back so but uh thanks for coming up man we've been

trying to make this happen for a long time yeah man you know i'm i'm very hard to get a hold of and i'm i'm pretty wishy-washy when it comes to that because i just i get it hard you've all you always get back to me but i i find that you have um you're wishy-washy when it comes to that. Cause I just, I get it. You always get back to me, but I find that you have, um, you're wishy-washy on social media. Like you'll go through these tears where you're on Twitter all the time and then you disappear. Like you've been kidnapped from social media for a while. And I assume I was just training now. Yeah, I'm training and I'm, I find it to be a really big distraction. And then lots of times, unfortunately, like, you know, I'm not as zen as I would like to be. But I find it to being a negative distraction lots of times, you know, or a mixed, you know, mixed positive, negative, neutral. negative neutral and so um when when it starts to have that effect on my life and i'm thinking oh man like i really don't like how inflammatory this has become you know especially my yeah you

have it well your audience is a little bit different audiences is a little bit different and i've got a lot of like support from like the animal rights and the in the like the vegan community and everything like that and that's always like a positive thing but then there's just so many you know and it's not just like the quote-unquote haters or whatever is there's more than that it's just it becomes it becomes very time consuming and distracting and and sometimes i just i'm like all right i've had enough i need to i need to get off here i need to get out of here and and yeah i've like a cleanse um yeah exactly yeah yeah i take a silkwood shower and like wash off all this like residual like angst and resentment exactly yeah yeah so what do you are you are you're training right now um what's going on

no i just have i had my fight on uh july 27th and i'm and all I've been doing ever since then is just staying in shape as best I can, considering the little injuries that I have, and then just hanging out with my kid, who I didn't get to really spend a lot of quality time with these past 12 weeks, 15 weeks before the fight, because I was just committed and training so hard. So just spending time with my daughter and taking care of all the things that I put on the side burner while I was doing full-time training. That's kind of how it ends up going.

So yeah, just doing that and waiting to see what's next. I really don't know. You don't have a fight scheduled right now yet. No, I um i don't know what what is going to happen um i still haven't spoken to the ufc i don't know um what's going on with that so once i find out exactly what they want to do then i can move forward and make a decision on what i'm going to do in the future you know what i mean like like where i'm going to take fighting and and if I'm going to do in the future. You know what I mean? Like, like where I'm going to take fighting and if I'm going to start pursuing other interests and things like that. And I've got a whole lot. I mean, the good thing is that I've got a whole lot of options. I've got a lot of different things that I could possibly start doing. But then that's also sort of the hard thing because it complicates everything

because I have to pick one and commit to it. I can't just dabble around because I just don't have the time and resources to do that. So we'll see what happens. I mean, if fighting ended right now, I mean, what are those? I mean, what are the options? I'm really interested in in um in uh in photography and in um in cinematography so i've been working and you know like uh i have a friend and i'm

directing like two of his music videos oh wow that's cool and so it's just like a chance to to really get my feet wet with that and you know i know, I know some people that work in film and, you know, I want to start, um, doing what I can to, you know, get my, get my foot in the door there and, and, you know, work as a DP and, and just see how the whole process works and watch people adapt, um, you know, scripts to screenplays to, to film and, and see how the process works. And, and it's, it's's it's a long journey you know it's not something that you can just be like okay well because i'm good at photography and i have a good eye i can just hop into this you know you've got to commit and you've got to practice and you've got to learn you got to study and so that's that's an option um teaching and coaching

is an option um you know there's there, there's a few different things. There's also like the option of doing some choreography in live action films and things like that. Yeah, you've done a little bit of that already, haven't you? Or did you do some for some children's shows? Yeah, for Avatar, The Last Airbender. Actually, I did it for The Legend of Korra, which is from one of my closest friends

is a creator of Avatar, The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra, both of which are really popular. They're huge. Yeah, I mean, it's like, that's one cartoon that I have no problem letting my kids watch. I'm like, that cartoon, I mean, it's awesome.

You know, yeah, the message is good. And like, they're on this spiritual quest. Yeah, exactly. It's cool. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, my friend Brian that created it, him and his friend Mike have created both those series. They're so into martial arts

and just like the visual dynamics and everything. And I've never met someone that's so in tune with, you know, body mechanics visually and like how it works and everything. Oh, wow. You know, we sit and watch UFC sometimes and he points out all these different things that he sees and observes about, know the way that somebody moves you know what i mean like the way that they move their body the way their body type is and all this stuff and then it's it's so cool to watch him adapt that visually to to this animated series and stuff and yeah it's popular a lot of people like it you know there's there's a lot to like about it there's you know even if you weren't into the story um the the the animation is really cool or you weren't into the story, the animation is really cool. Or you can be into the storyline and everything.

It's pretty cool. It's good to... I mean, I just like surrounding myself with people who are creative and artistic, no matter what it is, like music or... I'm obsessed with creative people. Like in this town, there's no shortage of them. And you always meet people that are, they're just amazingly prolific in some weird like corner of the, you know,

some creative business that can only exist in LA. Yeah. Like I, a friend of mine who I was, I went to a screening last night and I brought, it was Trapper's birthday and a buddy of mine has a uh has a theater in his house like a screening room he was screening Wolverine so I went over them there's some friends of mine there and one of the guys my friend Oliver he did the voice he's a voiceover actor he's a he's a actor actor too but he has a lot of voiceover work and he was the voice of

Robert Lutece and in in Bioshock Infinite. Oh, okay. And so my boys like love that and they're just like talking to him and he's like talking about what it's like to like work on these video games and like what it involves and like what the creators tell them and don't tell them. And it's just like, you know, I'm fascinated by that. I could talk to that guy like all day about that stuff. So, you know, it's just a weird, like you couldn't do that.

You know, this town is just rife with people that have these weird little yeah yeah i know i know los angeles is so cool in that regard you know and and every single time because it is such a zoo and it's it's such a crazy city and there's so many negative points that you like it's easy to get caught up in that and i find myself being like man like i don't know about this city and you know i think i've had enough of it and i don't want to raise my kid here once she starts getting older there's all these superficial influences and this consumerism and everything and then i get start to get down on it and i'm like man if you just swim through all the garbage, there's the most amazing people here doing the most amazing stuff on really cool quests.

And that's what's so magical about this entire area, the greater Los Angeles area. There's so many people who are doing what we're doing. And they're looking past that they're flowing past it and just you know concerning themselves with with creativity and and being artistic and and and just loving what they do and that's that's what's great and that's one of the things that you don't really find so much in in other regions you know it's few few and far between that's why i left left yeah where i grew up you know because everybody was just either involved in retail or you know or something you

know what i mean i just i can't hang with that yeah i mean i still think you're right i mean there's a lot of you know things that aren't so great about living here but there's still that idea that anything is possible yeah you know that that you just feel wherever you go and it exists, you know, and it's like, you know, you know, dreams do come true. You always meet like somebody who was like, well, I just came here a couple of years ago and now they're like doing some amazing thing, you know, I never would have thought it would happen. And so, you know, it still happens.

And I think the entertainment business is one of the last true, true apprenticeship industries where, you you know the guy who's running caa started in the mail room you know and uh you want to be a cinematographer well you start as a pa and then you move up to second assistant camera and then you move up to first assistant you know you don't just jump in and start shooting a movie like because you have a degree or something like that like you sure you start below people who teach you and the trade, you rise up through the ranks by having that skill passed along to you.

And I think that as technology continues to accelerate that we're becoming a more, that our economy is becoming more skill-based. People that can do all these different things with technology, it's become much more valuable it's become you know you could make the argument that that is as valuable as a college degree like if you understand how to do this at least maybe i'm being myopic because living in los angeles you see people doing all these very specific things that aren't really related to like where they went to school or whatever degree they have well yeah i mean no no

i think you're absolutely right i think that um you know at least within the west coast and in the industries around here and everything i i watch that happen all the time and and i think that's what's so cool about it is it's what you can do you know like look at look at what this guy does look at the way he shoots look at the you know what he's learned from working with this person they vouch for him and therefore he he gets the work whereas the person whose parents sent them to college that didn't really pay attention in film school and doesn't really know what they're doing they're not going to get it because they the the proof isn't there you know they know, they don't have what it takes. And that's what's so great about it.

You know, it's about what you're doing and what you can do, you know. And that's beautiful, you know. It's like sports, too. Yeah. You know, there's a purity to it. Exactly. Not that there isn't nepotism in Hollywood. I mean, let's be honest.

Yeah, yeah. But with some of those, with those things, yeah, they're very, very skill based for sure. So that's cool. I mean, I know your, your, you know, your love of photography goes way back. I mean, some of your pictures are amazing. Yeah. I appreciate that, man. I just, it's like the one thing about my photography is, the one thing about my photography is and and what i like doing is i like photographing remote places and and i like like going to these places that are so um you know off the beaten path and and so so rarely photographed you know like i have a few like iconic places that i've gone and photographed because i just like the aesthetics and I'm not

really too worried about the fact that, oh, well, yeah, tons of tourists and everything. I've shot the same type of scene. You know, I have a few shots like that, but I really like to go to places that the place itself speaks to me. So like I capture an image there and I capture an image there and i and and i capture an image of of like you know the the idea is to capture something that represents this beautiful feeling that you can only get when you're out there and like only the people that are in tune with nature and can go to a place like that and stand there and be miles and miles from the nearest person and just absorb the timeless energy that's in that spot. Those types of people are the ones that get it. And so it's not really a popular thing as far as making money.

I mean, everybody's like, oh, yeah, a nice picture is a nice picture. I mean, everybody's like, oh, yeah, you know, like a nice picture is a nice picture. But in this day and age, I find that images are really easy to come by. You know, anyone can do a Google image search. Right. Anyone can just see something and they say, oh, yeah, that's a nice picture. Oh, look, that's a nice place. They don't really, you know, like get into the scene.

You know what I mean? So it takes like a certain subculture of people that are really in tune with nature and remote places and love the aesthetic of forests and rock formations and things like that to really appreciate it. But I mean, I would do it more if I could. The thing is, it's so hard for me because of my daughter's age, to travel like that anymore. You know what I mean? Well, you're like this. You would have your fight, and then you'd go off on some kind of solo pilgrimage out to Joshua Tree and hide for a while.

Right? Right. And then take your pictures. Yeah, yeah. Do your Ansel Adams thing. Yeah. Ansel Adams thing. Yeah, and then what started happening is those trips got fewer and far between because it got to the point where

I needed to be there to take care of my daughter all the time and she wasn't of the age yet to come with me. She's still only four right now because the places I'm going to aren't just like blah, blah, blah National Park with the scenic overlook.

You know, anybody can get there, but these places are a lot more different, and there's a lot of planning involved. And, you know, if you just go out there on a whim, well, you could spend an entire week out there, and then the conditions won't be right, and you won't get a good shot, and it'll be a beautiful experience nonetheless.

And that's what I like about it too, is the fact that even if I don't come back with any good shots, it's just being there is just amazing. It's so spiritual. But one of my close friends is at the forefront of that type of photography, this guy named Mark Adamas. And I'm actually actually gonna go up to alaska with him here uh next week which is my will be my first real photography trip that i've taken in quite some time and uh anyway he makes a living leading uh group tours and so what he does

is he has people that that will pay to um you know, they all meet up and the hotel is on them. You know, their transportation is largely on them unless he has to use his truck to bring people into a really remote place that's off road. But he leads these tours over the course of, you know, five or six days. over the course of five or six days, and he just caravans people and takes them to these spots that only he knows about and helps them compose their shots, explains to them the light and everything and gets them to these places that they otherwise wouldn't know how to get to and if they found out how to get to, wouldn't know the right timing and the right light and everything. And he makes a good living doing that but he's away from home

250 280 days a year and um it's just impossible for me to do that so right so you know that that would be an option for me to start a business on and on that on on that sort of thing if if i if i wasn't a dad but you know you it's it's it's cool though because i get to to watch this amazing little person grow up and and everything and and live vicariously old enough to come with you she's almost old enough yeah yeah i started to bring her with me to like. Unless you're like rappelling down, you know, like crazy things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's cool, though. She loves it.

I mean, I've been taking her camping and stuff, and so she's getting into it. You know, it's a battle, though, between the nature-loving side and, you know, like the cartoons and all that. But I have no cable TV at my house or anything like that. So I try to keep those distractions at a minimum. Yeah, we're the same way. We turn the cable TV off primarily because we could just see the impact on the little girls. It's so dramatic and so immediate.

And they start to tap into the whole Disney Channel thing we could just see the impact on the little girls. Like it's so dramatic and so immediate, you know, and I start to, you know, tap into the whole like Disney channel thing and the products that are being advertised and all of that. And, and, you know, this is part of living in modern life or whatever.

And, you know, but then I just, I started to see them behave differently and we're like, you know, let's, this is not good for them. So we turned it off,

which was very difficult for me. You know, like I like my shows, you know, some shows I like to watch and, you know, I was like, really, you know, this is not good for them. So we turned it off, which is very difficult for me. You know, like I like my shows. You know, there's some shows I like to watch. And, you know, I was like, really? You know, like the Tour de France is on all summer. Like I'd really like to watch that, you know. And so, you know, I think the transition was hardest for me. You know, the girls were like, okay.

You know, like a week later, it was like it never happened. And now we're used to it and I'm used to it. like okay you know like a week later it was like it never happened and now we're used to it and i'm used to it um but you know it really is amazing how differently they behave without it i know i think it's so important um with girls too and having a little girl that that she really understands that um you know she can do anything that she wants you know that sounds like cliche or whatever, because we've been saying that to girls for so long. But it's really, really hard, I think.

I wouldn't pretend to know, but it's really, really hard from my observational standpoint to be a female in this society because of all the pressures that there are to use looks and sexuality and things like that as what you do to get ahead and you watch other people do it and other people fall into that sort of thing. And I mean, I'm not trying to get too heavy here,

but I mean, when you see the programming and the products that are available for little girls and adolescent girls and stuff, you see how that seed gets planted. And I don't like that. I want my kid to, if she's like, hey, like I really am into fashion and makeup and, you know, like all this stuff, that's great. And that's awesome. And, you know, like, you know, you want a model, whatever, I support that. But the whole thing is I don't want her to think that that's the only way that a female can get ahead.

And then if she doesn't have a certain type of look or something, then her worth is somehow less. I think a lot of people fall into feeling that way. And that sort of insecurity, like bred by the pressures of society, is something that I want to avoid. I want her to know that no matter what she wants to do, you know, sports or, you know, like, who knows? I mean, it's wide open, you know what I mean? So that's one of the reasons why I kind of pull her attention away from that

and try to just get her involved. I've gotten her in gymnastics and just getting her involved in sports. And she's so into nature and animals right now. And I hope that that seed that I've planted is kind of like going to take her wherever she wants to go without having to worry about any kind of like, you know, going to take her wherever she wants to go without having to, you know, worry about any kind of pressures or anything. Right, well, you let them develop their own barometer about what they're attracted to rather than being influenced by,

you know, what's on the cover of the magazine when they're at the grocery store, the checkout line or whatever, or what happens to be on TV or the cartoon that says, you know, your mother wants to kill you and you're going to die unless you find the prince and he marries you, which you do, and then your life is perfect forever. Yeah, exactly. Hold on.

It's freaking hot in here. I've got to pull out the window. Okay. Hold on a second. Let's do it. It's so hot. Right on. sorry you might hear a little traffic from the road but you know we're both staring at each other sweating bullets. It's ridiculous in the garage. Do you get complaints about the audio too?

Because, man, I got so many complaints about my audio. And I bought this little Tascam thing, and I would stick my podcast into Final Cut and do these filters that cut down on the ambient noise and all this stuff. And I was doing all this stuff, and people were just like, how come? you know, there was always some sort of complaint.

I guess you just kind of got to roll with that and brush it off. I'm getting, I get complaints. I've been doing intros of the interviews and I'm too long winded there. And they're like, get to it already. Jeez, man. You know, like I had, yeah, I had a few,

but the way I dealt with it was upfront. I was like, the audio on this podcast is terrible. Right, man. You know, like I had, yeah, I had a few, but, but the way I dealt with it was up front. I was like, the audio on this podcast is terrible. Right. You know, I'm sorry. I'm working on it. I'm brand new to this.

Now I've been doing it long enough where I can't make that excuse anymore. It's all about the mic though. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like we have a third mic when we do three people and this mic is so much worse than the other two and the sound ends up being yeah i kind of so we're upgrading some of the equipment but uh yeah i mean i just use garage band right right right yeah you know i think it was whatever at some point i think i

for some reason i deleted that off my computer oh you don't need this yeah because i wasn't yeah i didn't i didn't know what i was doing i like I didn't think I would need it in the future. But there's another program. It was like $20 or $30, and I think I bought it, and I just never got around to figuring out how it works. But it was, was it Audacity or something? Yeah, maybe one of those. Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, when I get back to it, I can use that. But all the Mac stuff, though, like GarageBand, is probably a lot more easier to learn. The interface is always easier than that stuff. There's much better ways of doing it than I do. We'll figure it out as it goes. But the conversation with you is so compelling that people forget. I want to get back into, you know, a little bit about, you know,

your story and your background a little bit. Um, I mean, I know you grew up, um, you grew up in Pittsburgh or the Pittsburgh area, right? So what was going on when you were, what kind of kid were you in high school? I mean, were you playing all the sports or were you the loner kid with the catcher in the rye? I was always involved in sports and stuff. Wasn't really that crazy about team sports, and stuff. Wasn't really that crazy about team sports, but I was always out in the basketball court playing with the older kids and stuff as a young kid growing up, played soccer, and was always into sports and just watching boxing and things like that was always something

that I was into. And I was really into music and everything too and once I got to my teenage years I fell in love with skateboarding um I actually fell in love with it for the first time when I was 10 and then um didn't really have the money to get a good board or anything and you know I mean imagine trying to do like a triathlon or something you know that's how everyone starts out you know sure you're sure you see you can start out with that but then there's only so far you can think of when it when it falls apart because it's it's manufactured poorly it literally falls apart while you're riding it and then you you know you can't get a new one well then that was that so when i was 14

though i got i got a good board and you know my mom saved up for it and and and helped me out and then there was a skate park near where I lived and from from like the age of 14 to 19 or maybe 14 to 20 um skateboarding was my life and it wasn't just yeah I like to skate and my friends are skaters that type of like scene thing it was like I was really committed and i was always um i had aspirations of of turning professional and and uh everyone that i was associated with and everything they were also aspiring to that it wasn't just like a hangout type of thing i mean you know we enjoyed like that side of it too but we were always filming making videos uh taking photos and i was always editing these little videos and putting them together and filming everybody and and every time i would you

know drive in the car and listen i was obsessed with skate videos absolutely obsessed i've seen but like every skate video prior to to the year 2000 ever, I probably watched it at least a dozen times each. But I would sit and listen to music in the car as I was driving or getting driven somewhere. And in my mind, I would just visualize how a skate video would be edited to that music and what kind of tricks would look you know, like would look cool. And I would just be visualizing skateboarding the entire time I listen to music and I still

find myself doing that. So I was obsessed with skateboarding. I was, I was skating and I wasn't into like the, you know, I wasn't part of the jock crowd in high school and ever anything like that. I was just, I was just doing my own thing. And most of the time, the people that I hung out with were all older. And when I was high school age, all my friends were out of high school. So I would just hang out with them. And I wasn't really worried about attendance too much and things like that. Right. I mean, was skateboarding like an escape from something else that,

yeah, I mean, yeah, it was skateboarding was just like my escape from everything that I didn't like about society and culture and, and, and the institution of public schooling and everything else. I was just like my,

and, and I still think that there's so much freedom in that, in the way it is. I'm not in, I don't mean like going to a skate park that there's so much freedom in that in the way it is i'm not in i don't mean like going to a skate park where there's this synthetic environment and you know there's a guy that takes your money and everyone's wearing a helmet and you know this you know you wait your turn and everybody's watching you i'm talking about like going and using an urban environment which was made for you know other purposes and turning that into spontaneous art that's only happening right at that moment yeah you can capture it with video but like like it's not just a track or a course or something like that. It's all these very interesting physical obstacles

and you're using them and they're all a little bit different and they've all got their own aesthetic. You're using them, this handrail, this marble ledge, this set of stairs, you know, like the way that this architecture is made is kind of like a ramp and you're using all of these things in this urban environment to do the tricks that you choose

that you feel like you can pull off aesthetically and just, you know, creating this art. It's like a performance art. Yeah, it's awesome. There's just so much freedom involved with that and so much more freedom even than, like MMA is cool but but it's it's it's a strict sport you know there's a set of rules and there's a guideline you do it in in this ring on this day and you know what i mean it's it's it's a different type of setup but skateboarding you just had a certain amount of freedom that

uh was really attracted to and I still rarely feel that type of freedom and and and other activities so yeah that's that's something that that was very very dear to my heart was like real real street skating you know what I mean that's the like not skate parks but like right real street skating what was great about it too is as a kid it's like it's it's largely illegal you know even like just on a small scale i don't mean like legal like okay you're going to jail for everybody outlaw culture right right but i mean you're doing something that you're not supposed to do i mean and it's like well these this corporation borrowed all this money from this other giant corporation

make this gigantic building and you know the it's it's like there's all this stuff is made out of marble. And it's not really for anything. It's just to say, like, look at this. It's really just like this. It doesn't need to be marble. It looks better. Yeah. It's making a statement about the tenants of the building.

Yeah. And it's like, look at this. This is worth more than the homeless guy that sleeps on it. And that's what they're saying to us, you know what I mean? And we're like, you know what? We're going to use this. We're going to, you know, getting chased out there by security guards and all that stuff.

It's just part of the thrill of participating in that. And lots of times you pull off something and only your friends saw it. Nobody caught it on film or anything. And it'll never be done again because you can never get into that spot again. It's like, hey, that's kind of the beauty of it. So that's something that I really enjoy. And just the physical act of it. I mean, landing a trick, like that's,

you know, that's just, there's, if it's a good one, you know what I mean? There's something special about that. Well, it's interesting.

I mean, I think there's a, there's a sort of a theme that runs through, you know, your life a little bit in that you're attracted to these sports

that allow you some sort of, uh, latitude for artistic expression. I mean, I think any great athlete who is performing at their peak, that is an art, you know,

that is, that is their, they are practicing their art. But I think there are certain sports, uh, that lend themselves to that better than others. I mean, martial arts is,

it's an art. It's in the, it's in the name of the sport, you know? And skateboarding is less a competitive thing than an expressionistic thing. And then there's this other kind of aspect to it, this outlaw theme, you know, sort of, you know, to be a fighter is kind of an outlaw thing,

and skateboarding. So this intersection of like art, athletic performance and kind of this, you know, cause you're, you're like kind of, you're, you're much more, at least you strike me as being much more kind of introspective and sensitive than the average kind of jock. Yeah. Like you're not like a typical kind of jock, you know, like, oh yeah, I play sports. I love it. You know, I was captain of the football team. I was palm king and all that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, that's one great thing about skateboarding too is like you might be, you know, doing things, you know, in an outlaw-esque sort of way and, you know, sort of right in the face of the, you know in an outlaw-esque sort of way and and and you know sort of right in the face of the you know this portrait of authority and just standing in front of and and and doing what what you do but the thing the difference is is there's an aesthetic to it rather than just

the kids that are like oh man like i don't care i'm gonna go steal a pack of cigarettes from 7-eleven like you know what i mean like that like the difference between doing that and then and taking a bus downtown with all your friends and just cruising through the streets and just going to every single one of these amazing places and and skating them until you get kicked out i I mean, I feel it's a much higher ground. And then, yeah, the other thing is that, like you said, it's not necessarily competitive. It can be, you know, and it's competitive in a fun way. And in skateboarding, like, yes, the contests matter.

But what I loved about it is there were so many skateboarders who never even messed with contests. They weren't interested in contests at all. And then every now and then, they would jump in a contest just for fun, and they would only try what they wanted to try and the hardest tricks, and they might not even land them, and they would get like 48th place or something like that,

and you'd look at the list of everybody, like one through 50. And he'd be like, oh, man, like Daewon Song got like 50th place. How did that happen? It was because he doesn't care because he's not worried about winning. What his score is or how he measured up to somebody else. Yeah, he just tried a trick that none of those guys could possibly land. And he spent his entire runtime trying it. And he might have finally landed it after five or six tries.

And then it was like, yeah, that's that. You didn't get enough points. Yeah, and the camaraderie was so great. You had all these little factions. And you have the hesh guys and the hippie guys. And you had the hip hop guys. There's all these. But everybody respected each other you know what

i mean like that was what was so cool about skateboarding was you had all these little like groups and stuff but they all were amped up and excited and happy when when somebody's video part came out that was really excellent or they got a chance to go and skate with so-and-so and and they saw what they were doing and you know everybody was into it and that that kind of camaraderie you know is it's hard to come by in other sports you know so yeah yeah and i that's a big attraction for me in in uh in ultra distance sports because it's such a small little world right i mean there's no money nobody's doing it for you know anything other than they love it and they're drawn to it.

And so there's a communal kind of family vibe to it where, yeah, it's a race. It's competitive. There are guys that want to win, and they're battling to do that. But those are the guys that are going to stay at the finish line all night and watch the last guy come in, and they're just as excited to see that person make it to the finish line all night and watch the last guy come in. And they're just as excited to see that person, you know,

make it to the finish or whatever. And it's just, you don't see that in too many sports. I mean, what is it, you know, what is the environment amongst fighters? I mean, what is that dynamic like? You know, there is a certain level of mutual respect and camaraderie that I think, you know, I mean, it pales in comparison to what I was just speaking about in skateboarding. But compared to a lot of other sports, there's a lot of camaraderie in MMA. And that's what, that's one thing that's nice. I mean, you know, we have a lot of respect

for each other, you know. As a sport gets bigger, there's more and more pressure on guys to go ahead and indulge in this sort of manufactured conflict type of thing in between each other. And I really feel like... The showmanship kind of marketing hype. Yeah, unfortunately, that's what sells fights to a large degree is, oh, well, this guy doesn't like this guy, and they don't like each other, and he said this, and he said this. And the fans just go nuts over that.

I mean, they just go nuts over that. A certain group of the fans just go crazy when guys have a problem with each other. And I've never really indulged in that. And I'm kind of happy that I've gone this long and I've had over a decade in the sport and I've never been hung up on, oh, this guy said this and anytime that i've had a quote-unquote beef with somebody it's never because i was trying to like

hype up a fight or or get a fight going with them um it was just because i just happened to call them out on you know being a gimmicky person or something, which I don't like, and I've done that before. But I don't even care anymore about that sort of thing. It's just, in answer to your question, I think, yeah, there is a good amount of camaraderie and mutual respect in and amongst the fighters, but it being such a sport that has, there's still such an idea of contention, even if it's just a figment of the imagination of some of the fans, there's the idea of, oh man.

Well, it's contentious by its very nature. Sure, sure, sure, sure. It is, it is. But like that idea, you know, idea of that contention and everything, that sort of diminishes some of the camaraderie in a way. It's a big business too. There's a lot at stake for a lot of people. This is your livelihood and your future and all of that.

Yeah. But I feel like there's this difference between, you know, I mean, certainly I'm no expert in MMA or UFC. I don't even know that much about it other than like, you know, a general person would know. I mean, I've seen some fights, but, you know, it's not like I follow it super closely. But I have this sense that people walk around

with this idea of what you guys are like. You know what I mean? And you see it reflected in the tough guy at the Grove who's wearing the Affliction t-shirt and he's got all the tattoos, he's got tons of tattoos and he's got the skull ring and the necklace you know, the necklace joker thing and all that kind of stuff. And that's, that's like, Oh, that's what a UFC fighter looks like. Or that's what that guy's idea of a UFC fighter is like. And I don't know, you know, too many fighters,

but I've met a handful of them and I've never met anybody who really does it, who bears any resemblance to that guy. Cause those guys, those guys rarely make it they rarely make it because it takes so much to to get to to the the point where you're really and you know and like lots of times if they make it that far they will have changed along the way and they will have opened themselves up and become, you know, a lot more realistic about themselves and about life. And they probably will ditch that sort of, um, insecure, you know, tough guy persona, um, because of what they had to go through to get there. Right. Because that essentially what you're saying is that's kind of like a mask, like somebody sort of of saying, you know, has created this identity around like I'm a tough guy or whatever, and behind that is some kind of fear or insecurity.

And if you're actually really going to go to the mat and like do this and exert, you know, put the time in and the years and years and years of training and discipline like any top-level athlete has to do to excel in any sport, that you're going to get stripped down you're going to learn more about yourself you're going to ground yourself and then you're not going to be that guy anymore yeah so so yeah with fighting either my experience like you're saying yeah they either don't start out that way or if they do start out that way they end up they get their ass kicked right and then yeah and then they and then that's the time when you need to decide, okay, well, like all this stuff I was doing was fake.

Am I going to continue on with this and allow myself to learn from this experience and grow and take this as far as I can? Or am I going to stop where I'm at right now and just you know you know and that's that's the thing I mean I couldn't live with myself if I if I stopped halfway with something that I was passionate about so yeah those guys you know that that's that's just some of the um that that's that's an idea a stereotype and and I think a lot of a small percentage of the fans the ones that they're there's good fans there's a lot of good fans out there and they're the ones who know what i'm talking about when they go to a live ufc they they have to roll their eyes and bite their tongue at the you know guys that are you know all cracked out on alcohol just screaming obscenities at the

fighters and everything and those are the guys with the with the affliction shirts in the tribal tattoos and everything else you know those that's that's that's them and and that's a there's a percentage of fans that that embody that and you know that's just that's just part of the uh the the way goes. But I fight for the people who appreciate the art that's unfolding. And those are the fans that I want to associate with, not the insecure fake tough guys. There's nothing worse than fake tough guys. I'm sure you've come across more than a few of those.

Yeah. All right, so we have this have this again this theme of of uh you know artistry starting with skateboarding going through your fighting into the photography maybe into cinematography but where does so where does skateboarding take you and where do you where does the sort of you know fighting begin yeah what ended up happening was um i took skateboarding pretty much i wouldn't say i took it as far as i could possibly take it but i took it as far as i could take it um where i lived i lived in a like western pennsylvania isn't exactly the greatest place to be if you're involved in street skating so uh when i was around 18 or 19 all my friends who were serious about it that everyone that i skateboarded with and and and was

you know like moving forward on this path with they either stopped skateboarding because they fell into what happens in that region which is get a job at the grocery store and and try to become manager in 10 years or or they um they uh moved away to uh pursue being pro either like down tampa which is the skate park at tampa and and the scene down there was was really big at that time. And, um, you know, or they moved to California obviously. And so I was stuck in this situation where I really didn't, you know, didn't have the money to like get a car and travel anywhere, you know, do anything and keep skateboarding. And then I got a job and, you know, I got a job and you know I got a really awesome job at that time I was I was lucky I was I was working at a at an animal sanctuary of a

farmed animal sanctuary so I got to be like a caretaker and work with like they had sheep and goats and rabbits and chickens and cows and pigs and just all these these really cool animals and we did a lot of rescuing of animals that were in really bad situations. It was all farm animals. So that was cool. And that's really, we're going to get into that in a little bit, but that's really where the whole, you know, sort of vegan thing began for you, right? Yeah, that's when I saw like, hey, there's other people doing it.

You know what I mean? Like there's other people that are dedicating their lives to this and it's it's not like it's not completely out of the realm of possibility to do this and and um that's not when I became vegan I was actually at the time I was really it was cool to to meet these people and everything and it was awesome to I mean I'm still really good friends with the people who who ran the farm and um they uh they were cool i just wasn't sure if i really liked the whole like like this is a vegan scene type of idea right you know what i mean like rather than like the the personal spiritual side of it but uh regardless of any of that like like i was it was a really cool job it was a great opportunity for me but while that was happening I was living in a very rural area and there wasn't really many much

I could do as far as skateboarding so months and months would go by and I wasn't able to do it and you know I was just working and working and didn't really have access to transportation or anything and I didn't really have anyone to do it with and so like it started to just fade and like while that was happening I was really depressed but I started there was a guy the whole time growing up even though I was skateboarding I was really into the UFC and fighting as it was happening and this was back before it was even a sport when it was just like a spectacle it's just like you real-life blood sport type of thing. And I was watching all of the UFCs all these years

and all the small organizations too, and I was keeping an eye on it and I was really interested in it. And I was watching it turn from a spectacle into a sport. I was watching it go from being um you know just this this silly thing like crazy drunk guys in a cage you know yeah or not even each other yeah there was a couple of those guys but it wasn't it wasn't really crazy drunk guys it was crazy drunk fans watching um guys that knew what they were doing, like the Gracies and stuff, fight karate masters, supposed karate masters,

who had no idea what they were doing. And it was sort of a mismatch type of thing. It was interesting in the fact that they would have a sumo wrestler and they would have a professional boxer and they would have a jiu-jitsu guy and they would have a guyo wrestler and they would have a professional boxer and they would have a jujitsu guy and they would have a guy that just did collegiate wrestling and they would have a dude who was just you know a legitimate tough guy you know and they would who rises to the top in that equation and who is the guy who's you know the first guy to put all those together into an equation that's gonna make him unbeatable and when you started then you started seeing these guys it's like wait a minute this guy isn't just a martial

artist or a tough guy he's an athlete look at him he's got a boxing background and a wrestling background you know guys guys like Don Fry started showing up and it was like now wait a minute like now there's something to it and then you know uh john peretti was this guy who was doing this this uh extreme fighting um promotion and he started implementing weight classes and having these lighter guys come in and they were like really fast and there was that dynamic and uh i was watching this all unfold and so anyway but when skateboarding wasn't happening for me, there was a guy who knew jujitsu who came from, he was stationed at Camp Pendleton in the Marines in San Diego. And he moved back to Pennsylvania. And he was the only person in the area that really knew jujitsu.

And I was like, you know, because, I mean, you could, in Pennsylvania, you can go down any street and do some silly taekwondo. That's cool if you like the art, but that's not going to help you in the UFC or with fighting. I wanted to learn jiu-jitsu, and I hooked up with this guy. We just started training, and man it was just i just became obsessed i just loved it and uh i i progressed quickly you know right away because i was really into it and i studied it and i and you know within a year i did my first amateur tournament and you had never you hadn't boxed before you weren't a wrestler in high school or anything like that no no i could i could the singlet really that that that that really turned me off if they would just like let i think i think they would

recruit a lot more people into wrestling if they didn't have that you know i mean it wasn't like i was i was some sort of like homophobic teenager or something like that but i mean when you're when you're your young guy like trying to like figure out what you're all about it like then you know it's like hey wear a leotard um while you're wrestling some other guy it's just that that turned me off and then unfortunately the the people who were involved and stuff like that like the the jock type of crowd that they hated me and I was just like all right like you know that's unfortunate i bet you would have been a great high school wrestler though i mean you have the perfect build for it and yeah there's a lot of people are like yeah didn't you wrestle in high school i read the

pennsylvania is all about uh wrestling and i'm like no dupont thing yeah oh man yeah that's horrible yeah no i uh i i was uh i was i was skipping school and skateboarding downtown. That's what I was doing. Right. Yeah, and you have some interesting ideas about education and public education. You were talking about that on Joe's show a little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's hard for me to watch the way that things are and and not not feel like hey um you know i think the

parents sometimes need to to take a step outside and say hey listen um this isn't working i'm going to educate my kid on on on their own i mean i i grew up in a pretty crappy area. When I was in my formative years as a young man, like going through middle school or junior high or whatever you want to call it, that age, I was in a really rough school. And it was a lot of impoverished families and kids that really didn't have any role models or guidance and there were just fights all the time. And it was just like a really, it was like a jail type of environment really, you know, it was like prison, you know, and, um, just let's just hold

these guys for four years and release them. Exactly. And, and, and every day was just like, let's get through the day and nobody really cared. And it was just, you know, handout worksheets and stuff. And this, that sort of thing. I mean, not all schools are like that. But the fact that there is no, like, uniform system among the public school system in the United States, and you can go drive down one street and get your kids in a school that you're lucky. The teachers are treated well here. The curriculum is good. If somebody's struggling, everybody works to help that person. And it's a good group environment. that person and like you know it's a good group uh environment and then other school right down the street from that can be the worst situation that you could possibly expect for putting your kids in and i mean listen like as parents you know we all have fears and and like i don't want

to be the guy that shelters my kid i want i want her to understand everything about the world and and how to deal with the the positives and the negatives of of groups and of you know of being a part of of the world and society and and and i don't want to like shelter her from that oh no you're getting picked on at school or oh no that like those people don't like you oh we're gonna you know i don't want to shelter her but at the same time it's like the the situation is is not good you've got a lot of people who are parents who are overworked and apathetic and they just send their kids off to these places where the their their entire value system is getting changed and they don't realize what's happening.

And I mean, it happened to me. I mean, I went from being like a really like enthusiastic kid who loved life and was very hopeful to being completely depressed and having no guidance or anything and having absolutely no faith in academics and and that's i think the biggest problem is like the the kids need to be is it need to know that they can pick what they want to learn and they can and they can be supported in it rather than just like

me i remember just hating school just hating it i's like man like i'm gonna get messed with like uh there's just all it is gonna be is just a bunch of fights the teachers don't care this the work is so tedious and boring and and you know what you end up learning in there i mean my god i can't even imagine like like putting my kid through the schooling that I went to. I mean, the crap that they were teaching in history, it boggles my mind. You know, as a parent, you love your kids, you want what's best for them. And if you're going to kind of abdicate control over their day

by dropping them off somewhere, you would hope that that would be an environment that would be inspiring and is sort of elevating them and raising the bar. them off somewhere, you would hope that that would be an environment that would be inspiring, you know, and is sort of elevating them and raising the bar. And for the most part, you know, there's great schools out there, of course, but, you know, there's a lot of schools that aren't, and kids are not inspired by what they're experiencing on a daily basis in school. And it's difficult, man. I mean, we're, you know know we're navigating this same thing you know we've decided to homeschool all our kids oh that's great

and it's an evolving experiment you know what I mean it's like it's not like I have it all figured out or Julie has it all figured out and it was really motivated by Mathis who's now nine we had her in all you know we had her her in every school in the area.

We had her here, and it's like, it's not working out there. Let's move her over here, let's move her here. And everywhere she went, there was just something about Mathis that was just a little bit left of center where it wasn't working. And we tried, listen't i didn't want to homeschool her you know she's like you know i got i'm busy man i got stuff to do but you know she would even after a couple weeks she'd start coming home from school and i could see her energy like level dwindling or like that sparkle in her eye and she's like you know she's got a lot of

enthusiasm she's got a lot of opinions and she dresses up in these crazy outfits wants to go to school and you know that and then the other kids look at her weird or say something and then she gets deflated and it's like i can't you know i went through a lot of that yeah in junior high and in high school and i was like i cannot tolerate that with her and it's that weird line like you're saying you don't want to shelter them from the world it's like part of that is the world. You know, you got to like sort of create your own personal defense mechanism about whatever's coming at you. But at the same time,

you know, uh, I, you know, the most important thing to me is their self esteem. Like that has to be fostered and intact. and so really the homeschool thing was born out of that. And this past year we did it

with a couple other families and we had most of the classes here and they're all different ages. Where did we come up with this idea that you go to a classroom and everyone's your age? We had this amazing experience last year where we had kids that range from

five years old to 14 and they were the older ones would teach the younger ones and and you let the younger ones you know you're still covering the bases like they're learning what they need to learn but at the same time like letting them empowering them to take the lead a little bit and say we want to learn about this yeah and then supporting that and go okay let's learn about that let's learn about you know what let's learn about ancient rome and then just getting every book you can that's appropriate for their age and watching a bunch of movies and documentaries and just going super deep into that yeah until you're like all right we did that like what's next now yeah yeah

yeah that's that's great i mean that's that's awesome i I really want to homeschool my daughter. It's just whether or not I can pull it off. I just don't know how I can make that happen right now. But one of the schools that I'm looking into, they're not quite on the same level. But what's great about them is that they are actually trying to do that where they have like three different age groups all in the same classroom. And it's a large classroom, three teachers in a large classroom, and they have three different age groups and they're not

separating them. They're all working together. And I think that's a good idea, but we'll see how that unfolds. But yeah, basically, it's such a hard decision. I mean, one thing, you don't want to teach them to run from these things. But on the other hand, it's like everyone's an individual. And these kids have so many different ways of expressing themselves that are completely innocent and natural still at this age and and for you to just put them in a situation where they have to deal with a bunch of peers that that that uh you know like just turn on them and don't understand right or that thing that's specific to their individuality they

learn early on like oh it's not safe to express that so you just not doing that anymore and that goes away and that's like tragic that's so tragic yeah yeah i mean that's that's that's life right there and that's such a such an important part of their life and who they are as an individual and then it gets taken away you know that's that's not good not good at all man right so i'm sorry you had that experience but i would imagine that nova is gonna have yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm just just gonna keep keep doing my best and and and you know when the time comes to put my foot down about something, I got to do it. My goal in life is to make sure that she has the best opportunities that she possibly can.

And then I just let her take the reins from there. Because then that'll be the beautiful thing. And whatever she decides to do is cool with me. You know what I mean? As long as she's respecting herself while she does it, man. And I think I planted some good seeds in her. And I just want to make sure that she doesn't get caught up in the system the way that it is. And I think, yeah, like you were asking,

up in, in the system the way that it is. And I think like, yeah, like you were asking, why is it that, that, that we just decided some, at some point that everybody, this age stays together, everybody in this age stays together. I think it was just because they wanted to make a system and they decided to, to make a system based on grades and age groups. And you learn this and you learn this and you learn this but um not everybody needs to fall into that you know that's what's that's if if we've learned anything about ourselves as human beings it should be that we are all individuals and yeah some of us are going to gravitate towards what the majority does but um that that doesn't mean that the ones who are individuals should be uh given less attention or treated like there's something marginalized yeah marginalized yeah

so when high school was done i mean that was it for school for you yeah the animals you're working at the animal sanctuary and you're starting to get into jujitsu right you go to this first tournament yeah yeah i did like after like six months i did like a few like grappling tournaments which weren't like full fighting it's just like grappling and i like the competition and and so like once i'd been doing it for about a year, I went and did an amateur tournament, amateur MMA tournament, and I didn't even have a corner person. I drove from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati by myself, and I fought three fights in one night and won all of them by submission.

I was like, that was the most amazing feeling in the world. I was just like, wow. I was like, I can't believe amazing feeling in the world. I was just like, wow. I was like, I can't believe that. Like the crowd was like all cheering for me. And I was like, you know, just threw myself into this situation where I was like, you know, I had the chance to really shine. And I did. And I was like, man, I've got to go for this. I've got to go for this.

I mean, did you know in that moment, like, did something click and you're like, my life just changed? Yeah, yeah. I remember driving home and I remember because I had, like, I brought my video camera with me. I didn't have anyone to film it, so I, like, sat it on the ring. And, like, you could see some of it. And I remember, like, stopping at a rest stop that night on my way back home

to, like, catch a couple hours of sleep. And I was like, let me see if any of this recorded. And I was a couple hours of sleep and i was like let me let me see if if any of this recorded and i was watching some of the fight and i was like and i saw it i was like wow i did that i did that and i couldn't sleep i was like all right i'm wired now i'm gonna keep driving i pulled an all-nighter and drove all the way back but it was like that that feeling yeah i mean that that's something special, you know, like that feeling when you really love something and are passionate about it, and then you follow through with it and you excel

and you actually pull it off. And it's a good feeling. And every fighter who's ever been authentic about their pursuit and and has and has won won the the fight that the you know that that they worked so hard for and that they believed in knows that feeling you know it's it's an amazing feeling and some are more special than others but yeah at that moment i knew that this is what i wanted to do for a while and then started training with more people in the area a few more guys that were doing mma not just jujitsu were in the area and i started driving to downtown pittsburgh every night and training with these guys and just you know kept going from there and then one guy was like hey i'm moving out to

california my aunt lives on huntington beach and i'm i'm gonna go out there and try to train out there and and uh i'm like he's like you want to come with me and i'm like yeah so i quit how old were you then uh i was 20 and i quit my job at ups that i was working at and i remember the manager was just like i was like i was kind of like you know doing my normal likeotivated, self-deprecating sort of, oh, yeah, I'm going to try this, and I don't know if it's going to work out. And he just looked at me. He was like, it's probably not going to work out. And I remember him saying that to me, and I was just like, what a dick.

And I was like, all right. And it's cool because stuff like that always used to motivate me. Even skateboarding, if we went to this giant set of stairs or something and somebody would be like, oh, no one can do that. You can't do that. I would just be like, all right, we'll see. But I would do it. So anytime someone would tell me I can't do something, I would do it.

Do you remember the name of the UPS, your boss at UPS? Have you ever given him a shout out? Man, I think his name was – Did you ever see that guy again no no he i think his name was bernie but uh all right bernie you were wrong yeah yeah so so yeah but you should thank him i guess yeah you right the motivation man you get motivation from from all different places but but yeah, I was in Huntington Beach for a little bit and then just moved more towards El Segundo and started training with these guys out there, with these real pros,

and then a million ups and downs and just stuck with it all through the years. I mean, was that like going from first grade to college when you just stepped into the real deal? The training, too. That was the main thing. One thing I was surprised, I was like, from first grade college when you just stepped into like the real deal the training too that was the main thing like one thing I was surprised I was like yeah these guys are better than me that you know like and everything but they weren't destroying me like like my my peers at this gym the real pros like that I hooked up to and watch fight it wasn't like i had no business being there i could hang and that was encouraging

what was kind of discouraging was the fact that like when i started to really train full time it was it was a shock to my body because uh i mean these guys had been wrestling at a high level since they were very young and went through the rigorous training that freestyle wrestlers have to go through to go through the Olympic trials. And even before that, all this stuff in Division I wrestling is crazy hard with the training. And they've been doing that for years and years

so their bodies have adapted and they could deal with that. And with me, I was trying to do the conditioning and all this Olympic lifting. And learning the skill part too. And learning the skill part. People don't realize there's a muscle memory to that that's powerful. If you started wrestling when you were 11 and wrestled through high school,

you could stop for eight years and pick it back up pretty quickly. I just know from swimming, which isn't nearly as skill intensive that because i learned at a young age and did it so so often you know did so much of it i could take years and years and years off and hop in the pool and a week later i'm like you know i'm fine you know what i mean like my you just so there's the you know the i might be conditioned, but you can always take care of that. But the actual skill, like knowing what to do, how to move your body in that very specific way that takes years and years and years of training to kind of hone in is just there all the time unconsciously. And that's, yeah, that's the type of thing that can save you from injury too. Because when you get in those weird positions where you know not everything in the technique

went right then you you know how to pull your body back to center it's almost and you're not you don't have to think about it you just do it right because you've you did you've been doing that for years exactly yeah so the first few years i ran into a lot of injuries you know like i would i would get injured doing the olympic lifting would get injured, you know, doing like sparring and grappling with these guys. And, and so there were some setbacks there, but I just, I mean, just to interject, sorry, I didn't want to throw you off, but like one question would be, I mean, is there anyone else in the sport who's competed at your level that had less of an, like an athletic background? I mean, your background was skateboarding. You know what I mean? Like you, I don't know. Like it's, it's our, at the time, I don't,

at the time there was probably more of that because there was more guys. Yeah. It was so new, but now it's like, like these kids that are coming up now, man, like, like the guys that are like 21, now man like i'm looking at these guys and i'm just like geez like i like i wish there were no weak spots yeah and then you know and so so what it becomes now is is is the mental side of it you know because because we're seeing like like a guy like me i've been there and done that and i've been doing this for so many years and then i see this young kid who's like just so good and has been you know like his learning informative years have

he's been given the best techniques and all this new training and and he's been doing it since he was 15 or 16 and he's ready to go now but then now it's like okay like how do you deal with adversity in the fight and like how do you flow through it and and can you can you deal with with uh not winning every moment of the fight can you deal with you know the way the crowd is reacting is that going to get in your head you know those types of things and that's one thing when i was living in vegas for a little while and training in a room full of just nothing but like high-level pros. There was like, there would be these guys who were really good. And they were young, though.

And they were up and coming. And they would come into the gym. And the one thing, like when they were confident, you couldn't deal with the speed. And it was just like, oh, man, like this kid's so good. But then if you big brothered them they would fold lots of times and that's the whole thing about like the competitiveness is you sometimes you just got to be a bully you know what i mean and and this is one of the sports that you're allowed to do that so so like that's that's what i remember tyson griffin say in that

one time he's he's this other uh fighter in the UFC and uh there was there was some some young guys that were coming in that were up and coming and they were they really good and he was just like yeah man you just you just gotta put the big brother thing on them you know what I mean I started doing that I was like yeah and it's just it's just mental it's just mental well because that yeah that that's that's that only comes with experience right and you got to have your highs and your lows to develop that yep it's i mean i can imagine um you know something like that going on you know in your sport you know like like with somebody who is just like wow look at the pace that this guy's keeping it's just amazing but then if you you catch up to him and pass them and then yeah and then

fall back and then pass them again just show them that you can do it whenever you want you know what i mean like that type of thing like they can you know screws with people yeah yeah yeah well yeah i mean you know at the highest level you know there's a lot of talented people and they're all training super super hard So what distinguishes the guy who's on top of the podium or the guy who's winning the match? And it's, it's that, you know, and I don't know that that gets enough kind of structured attention and training. I mean, everybody knows it's important. Right. And when you're training, it's like, oh, here's what I'm doing for my training today. And you know what your workout is, but where's the, where's the

attention to the mental aspect of it? Like we all know we need to develop that that mental skill but i don't know that i think there's still a lot of room for growth in all sports as to how you kind of take that and put it into a structure that gets incorporated into your daily routine where you're giving it like focus in some kind of way that you're developing it yeah yeah true yeah yeah i mean it's it's it's gonna be interesting to see how how all these sports evolve because really they're for the most part i mean all these sports that that we're all interested in and even the ones that are the most popular sports in the world, in the format that they're presented in, they're still all very, very young. Well, I mean, UFC, MMA is brand new.

It's a baby. In the world of sports, triathlon is pretty brand new. Ironman didn't even exist until 1979. And historically, I guess there's a lot of similarities with mixed martial arts because you're taking different sports and creating a hybrid out of that right so when triathlon began it was like all right well here's the guy who's a really good cyclist who's being a triathlon now here's a guy who is a great college runner right or whatever and then they're trying to catch up in the other sports but now um you know at the olymp level, these guys are, they're just bulletproof in all three because they didn't start as a swimmer or a runner.

They started as a triathlete very young. So they're like developing that from the beginning. So now that's what you're seeing and, you know, what you were just saying about MMA. It's like they're not high school wrestlers. They're starting, they're MMA fighters from the beginning. Exactly, yeah. It's total parallel. That's a perfect way to explain it.

I mean, yeah, before you had, oh, this is a boxer. He's a boxer who's trying to figure out how to wrestle. All you have to do is get him down on the mat and you win, right? Here's this jiu-jitsu guy. His stand-up's not too good. He doesn't like getting hit. Now we've got everything. We've got guys that they are MMA fighters from the beginning,

just like you said. Yeah, so yeah, it's a game changer. And then all these little things become so important. The little things aren't that important until you get to the very top. And then at the very top, you know, yeah, it's like, well, that guy just, he had, there was something mental that he had that was a little bit different that's one of the things that i i've been learning a lot lately is is that um you know mental toughness is is much more about pliability and flow than than about toughing through something.

It's not about smashing through the wall. It's about digging under it sometimes or crawling over it or finding a way around it. Just adapting to the situation that you find yourself in. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Mental toughness is a lot more about being like water than it is about just not, you know. Interesting.

Yeah, yeah. I like that. That's cool. I never really thought about it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're having this early success, right? And you're like, all right, man, I'm in California.

I'm like, I'm in there with the big boys now. So when does the big, you the big kind of break happen? Well, it wasn't immediate. I mean, I moved out to California in 2002, and then there was a lot of ups and downs, and there was a lot of injuries and having to wait on the sideline while I couldn't get in any fights. And then once I was starting to be healthy again,

it was really hard to get fights. And I was relatively unknown, but I had a pretty good record. And it was hard to get people to fight because it's still like that in the low ranks, in the small shows. You got to take the fight you can get, or you got to fight the guy who's way above you? Well, it's more like this. It's like everybody out there wants an easy opponent.

And even the guys who are really good, they've got their little manager or their coach that's like, oh, well, he's five and oh but you know we don't want to put him in against another guy who's five and oh we just you know like we want him to have an easy fight because they want to pad his record and see boxing has been around for a long time and boxing has been established so boxing works that way there's fighters who are destined for something great and then there's opponents and lots of times a fighter that's destined for something great takes a couple losses and then the next thing you know

every fight that they have is win loss win loss and and then their record's tarnished and now they're just an opponent and in MMA really you know they're trying to guys are trying to do that to an extent and they were back then too and And so it was hard for me to get fights. And once you're an opponent, then you're just always in a – Yeah, and they don't care. You're like a journeyman fighter, but you're never going to get your big shot. Exactly. And that's – one thing that's at least different about MMA is

it doesn't really matter what your record is. I mean, yeah, if you've got a great record, it's a nice little feather in your cap or whatever and it looks good but it's about what you've done lately you know i've watched guys who had like just abysmal records and like lost as much as they won or not abysmal but just you know just like like i'm not a great record at all even for mma and then they just all of a sudden found their groove and went on a six six fight win streak and all of a sudden like that's all it takes and they're fighting for the title now you know what i mean like uh and so so it's still so it's not as rigid as boxing like you can no because the thing about boxing is is those guys that are so great that compile these amazing records,

they could have been beating better fighters, but they don't put them in there against better fighters, and they're not really fighting anybody. They're making business decisions. They're not taking risks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I was just doing what I could, and then some things that seemed at the time like they were stifling me

ended up being good opportunities. Like I won a few tournaments, and then I signed with this small company called King of the Cage, and they were paying me really not much. They were paying me more than I was getting paid, but I was fighting for like 200 bucks before so then like this company's paying me like a little bit more than that and i'm like oh okay this is all right but then they signed me to an exclusive contract and when they did that

it was for like two years and right when they did that was when the ufc decided to bring my weight class back and so i was like oh no and i was stuck in this contract and that was like the UFC decided to bring my weight class back. And so I was like, oh, no, and I was stuck in this contract, and that was like the bane of my life and the promoter of that. Sorry, the motorcycles. We rolled up the garage door, so sorry about the traffic noise. Don't send me a bunch of tweets about the audio quality. Yeah, come on, guys. Enough with the complaining.

Man, I put up with enough of that when I was doing the podcast. But yeah, so basically, that was the story of my life. I would complain about it all the time. I'm stuck in this contract. But getting through that ended up being really good because then once I got out, ended up being really good because then um once i got out i got some really good opportunities and i got out right at the right time to uh to to take this

opportunity to to do the ultimate fighter show and um once i i hopped in that i just it was i mean how did that happen though there are scouts that are showing up at fights looking for who's going to be on the show? No, what happened was I had just my last fight on the contract for that King of the Cage company they set me up with had me fight this guy

I had a 12 fight win streak at the time and they had me fight a guy who's a wrestler and I fought him in his home state and uh the the way the fight went it was one of the few fights that i really really dispute and there's a couple questionable decisions i've been involved with but there was a reason it was my last fight on the contract the guy knew i was leaving the company and the fight was close and they gave the decision to the other guy so that they can have a champion you know what I mean right and

and I was really bummed out about it this time but like looking back I mean who cares and so I lost the the title and then I immediately got a shot in at the time the second biggest organization in the world which was called pride, which is this Japanese organization. And they just threw me to the wolves. I fought Sakurai, who was the number two fighter in that weight class in the world at the time. And I lost. This is lightweight?

Well, it's funny because. You were class above and dropped back down. Well, no. What happened was I was fighting at lightweight. And then in Pride, their lightweight division was five pounds more which is 160 but what happened was they came over to the united states to throw that event the the one that i was in and when they did uh the commission and nevada's like hey um 155 lightweight. So if you guys want to do your 160 thing, that's fine. But we're just going to call it a catch weight. And so it's not going to be like an actual lightweight fight.

And they're like, oh, yeah, that's fine, 160. So the dude shows up and they're like, he can't make 160. He can make 165. And I'm like, whoa. Like, all right, well, I'm walking. I know you're at like 155 at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm walking around at 160

and he's walking at 178 or whatever, like sweating, trying to cut. And so he barely squeezes on at 164. But this makes me sound like I'm making excuses. But anyway, he was really good. He had his his stuff together and um I I fought I fought him and and I lost that fight it was it was a good fight though I got some fans from it it was it was an exciting fight and I I did what I could and so it was good

and then after that fight it was kind of like, I went through all this stuff. I was in this exclusive contract I was stuck in. And then I kind of got, you know, like my one big shot against this like great guy. And, you know, like I didn't do what I was supposed to do. I wonder what I'm going to do now. And while I was thinking about it, then a friend of mine had been on the Ultimate Fighter the season before the one they were about the film and that's basically how everyone got on was references from guys who had been on before really um they would hold these tryouts for the ultimate fighter which i was never involved in and a lot of these guys would show up and they'd hit pads and they'd do a little this and they'd

do a little of that and then i mean they do that like American Idol style where they go around all the town, you know, all over America. Like we're going to discover the next one. And what they did was they would hold it in Vegas and then they would just have everybody would fly out and spend their own money to come out there and, and try to like, like while somebody for their little three minutes that they have or something, it was, It was weird.

And I don't know how you can see anything about a person by watching them hit pads, because I know some people who look amazingly lethal when they're hitting the pads, and then you put them in there and they get hit in the face once, and that's it, and you can't forget it. The pads don't hit back, you know what I mean? Like the bag doesn't hit back.

And so anyway, they would hold these tryouts. And a couple of the guys were picked up through the tryouts. But most of them, they had done the tryouts. And they had a reference from a competitor on the previous season. So I was the only guy on that entire cast of that show that got on that didn't do a tryout thing or something like that and and so so my reference was just my friend and also like well here's my record i already fought in pride and right and like it wasn't like i'd fought in pride and become the

world champion because if i wasn't they wouldn't have put me on the show but I was like still up and coming so they put me in there and I that was that was a great opportunity because I was like well this is like I was feeling like at the time this is my last chance you know right that's how I felt at the time and and you're how old are you then oh 27 I just turned 27 yeah yeah so uh this is 2007 yeah yeah yeah so yeah i just went in there and and and and did did my job man so you just went through you did the whole reality tv thing dude yeah all the backstabbing and all the drama and all the nonsense yeah it was it was very strange it was very strange it was a strange thing to be involved with because it was like it you were watching people like act in in the most

uh disingenuine sort of ways or not even that's not the right word calculated yeah it was provoke or yeah and and just everybody knew that they were being watched and judged so there was a certain amount of authenticity was just taken out of the equation right from then and there and and i remember we used to all on the show we used to sit around and talk about that in the room sometimes we'd just be like man i bet they're gonna make me look like this and that and then someone else be like no I mean they filmed me doing that I know they're gonna make me out and they I said that and I know they're gonna you know and they're gonna have me being this this like guy like that in and everybody's trying to figure out how they can get their airtime you

know right right in not enough and come out on top in a way that they didn't want to be portrayed yeah and i remember the the like producer she would never say anything i mean it was all just like the reality show is just this environment and we were being filmed and listened to all the time but she like was like pulled a meeting one time halfway through and she was like listen you guys keep talking about nothing but movies and music we can't use that and then the other times you're just talking about how you think you're going to be portrayed and edited don't worry about that just be you we picked you because you're you and all this stuff and everybody's just like uh it was so weird

and like they would the producers whenever they would do a thing like that, they would yell at us. We were a bunch of high school kids, and they were the principal or something. And I hated that. I was like, we're all adults. I just really. But they're like, we need you to be children.

Yeah, exactly. Are they trying to provoke you and stoke the fire and create drama where it didn't exist? I mean, look, you got a lot of of testosterone and these guys all want to win and they know that if they do you know there's a lot to be gained right from that so there had to be a lot of shit talking and you know the omarosa had to you know reveal himself to be the guy who's like the one who's you know i was just like smack i was like look like and i realized i was like these guys are all sort of scared about this whole situation it's a weird situation

everybody wants to win but who really believes in themselves and i'm like i'm just looking at all these guys and i'm like these guys don't believe in themselves. You can just feel it. You know what I mean? Like, he's just the competitor in me. It was just like, these guys, they don't have it, you know? You know when you look at the guy. Like, when you stand across from a guy in a fight even, like, and you see him in the ring and you look in his eyes.

And I mean, I'm not talking about it because I'm not one of those stare down type of people at all. I couldn't care less about that. But when you look at somebody, you can tell if they embody belief in themselves or not. And like these guys just didn't have it. I've stood across from guys that looked right at me and they weren't trying to stare me down, but they were just like, I'm like, oh. That guy's dialed in. Yeah, he knows what he's here for, man.

You know what I mean? And then that's the time when you check yourself. Do you start worrying about that, or do you just, you know, go on your path the way you're supposed to? But, yeah, none of those guys had it, and I was just like, well, I'm taking it. You know, if that's the way it's going to be, I'm taking it. So that's what I did in that situation. I mean, you just kind of shut your mouth and train

and just focus on the task at hand and not play games? Yeah, that was my thing, and I was surrounded by half the guys. Half the cast on the show was nice guys who started to become very discouraged at the whole situation and they didn't like the the sort of i don't know i'd call it like minimum security prison atmosphere that was that it would that the reality show was and not having access to or from the outside world in any way and not being able to you know take get or, you know, like read a book or anything. And they started to fold because of that mentally.

And then the other guys, they were probably folding too, but their way of dealing was just acting like imbeciles and just, you know, being silly and, you know, treating it like a frat party and so i was really annoyed with these people and so my whole thing was i'm here to win i'm here to to to you know to fight and to be a competitor and and to win and to take this seriously and these guys are are goofing off and drinking all night and acting dumb and yeah the the guys were filming them but like who cares like i'm here to win and and they took that as all max an asshole look at him he's grumpy like you know it's like you know like yeah i'm grumpy because i gotta be around a bunch of idiots you know what i mean like like i'm here like i want to i want to it's so funny because it's also the most like cliche thing like i'm not here to make friends. I'm here to win.

You hear that on like every reality show. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. These guys are, some of these guys are really weird though, man. Like I just, it's in the. Are they still in it now? Are these guys, are they around? Very few of them are. Like the few from my cast that are still around were the guys who actually were taking it seriously.

Like George Sotteropoulos, he took it seriously and he's still around. One guy that was a goofball totally and is still around and is still good and he's fighting in Bellator, really matured a lot after that was uh ben saunders yeah he he got he got good and and he he became a very good martial artist but yeah most of those guys who were being goofballs just i don't know what they're doing they're like working the door at a strip or something for right now so anyway man so you take it right so you win this thing yeah and so but before we get into kind of what happened next walk me through what a typical like when you're really focused and you're gearing up hardcore for a fight like what is a typical day of training look like for you um like well uh just there's there's all different things that

you could be doing throughout the week but like maybe on one day might be something like um drilling takedowns and wrestling something something that's uh like a specific type of thing like grappling or jiu-jitsu um drilling that for a while which is just working on the techniques um over and over again practicing takedowns or takedown defense or some sort of grappling thing right but you're so but just like a in a sort of day in the life thing like you get up like at what time like what time are you at the gym yeah yeah like because you're going all day right like you're in vegas well yeah yeah more in recent years right yeah yeah i was in vegas for a little while i was there for a year and a half but like i'll just take it like a right like a like just to give

an idea like what somebody at your level like is is kind of going through on a daily basis so um okay look at well out, just as an example, I'll just pull like a random day out of training from this last camp. It's like, you know, wake up at 7.30, get my, maybe more like 7, get my daughter ready for school, get her fed, get myself ready, feed myself, drive her to school, drive back, do a half an hour of yoga on my own, stretch, meditate a little bit, drive to train. Go and do some wrestling, drilling for like a half an hour, 45 minutes. And then after that, wrestle live for about an hour. And then right after that, go into the room behind there

and just do some sprints on the concept to the rowing machine or the airdyne. Just 30 seconds on as hard as I possibly can. 30 seconds like light and easy. You know, do that sort of sprinting interval stuff um and then go home get something to eat take a nap wake up um take care of anything I need to take care of with emails or whatever drive go and pick my daughter up from school bring her back spend some time with her and then around seven take her with me to uh to the sparring and i get into the gym and i set her up with her like coloring books and stuff and then i go in and i spar i might like warm up for 15

minutes and then like do a few rounds light with somebody and then I spar like six five minute rounds with 30 seconds break in between each five minute round with um a fresh guy coming coming every single round with me and just 100% sparring, kickboxing with takedowns. And then, yeah, then that's it. And then go home and try to, you know, do everything. Right, do everything all over again the next day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. So when did you, I mean, has yoga and meditation

always been a part of your protocol or is that? Yeah, you know, what I would always do though was I would always just do it during the training camp and then and then after the fight was over i would blow it off yeah yeah that's that was what was what i always how i always worked and and just recently um in the past past six months i started working with with some guys and like a sports psychologist who was really, really good with, you know, he's not like your typical Freudian analyst type of psychologist guy. He's much more of the Eastern philosophies and he really got me into meditation. philosophies and and he really got me into meditation and and because of of him and some of the books that he's lent me and and some of the the the path that i decided to take with finding out more about meditation then then that's that's caused me to to make it a part of my life

now and so now it's like even though I might not even do it every single every single day like I always you know like make sure at least if I've gone like two days without it that I make it a part of my life and and lots of times if if I wasn't able to find time to meditate um for a couple days in a row even then I make sure that every day when I have a few seconds, I would just do like five, five breaths of meditation. Like I just got out of the shower, just stop for a second. I don't need to do anything else. Just, you know what I mean? Just, just a little bit. And then those types of things can really help because it's when it's, it's all about practice, you know, and when you, when you just blow it off and don's it's all about practice you know and when you when

you just blow it off and don't do it for weeks and weeks and then then it becomes harder to get back into the group but um as far as meditation and yoga on a consistent basis has only been in the past six months on the other time it's only been um something that i had done uh during the training camp and then i would just like afterwards i'm like oh well that's done and over with my goodness i don't i don't want to do anything that involves trying to better myself yeah why would i want to do that yeah let me just go the other direction for a little while yeah indulge yourself well it's just like human behavior you know what i mean yeah but what i mean have just go the other direction for a little while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indulge yourself. Well, it's just like human behavior, you know what I mean? Yeah.

But what, I mean, have you noticed the difference or the impact that that has? Oh, man, totally. You know, it's not like a switch that you flip, like, oh, well, yeah, I started doing meditation, and all of a sudden my life is better, and I feel better, and everything's great. It's slow.

It's a slow building process and learning process, just like anything. But I've definitely seen a lot of huge improvements and not just in training and stuff, but it carries over into my life. Just like how everything works, you know, like how i perceive challenges in life are now it's it's like oh man that really sucks that happened to me instead of wallowing in self-pity like i might do before and and getting like all screwed up with fear and anxiety and what do i do now oh man what do i do now it's like i'm dealing with some really scary decisions that I have to make with what I'm doing with my life right now.

And I'm just like, hey, like, all right, you know, I'm game. You know what I mean? Like, this is gonna be really hard. And I'm not letting it get to me. Whereas I could fall into a huge hole of depression like I have in the past before. Or make decisions based on fear. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, you're not gonna go into a huge hole of depression like I have in the past before. Or make decisions based on fear. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's sort of like you're not going to go into a fight unless you're super fit, right? So you're going into these life decisions about what you're going to do for this next chapter. Yeah. You want to be mentally, emotionally, and spiritually fit so that you make the right decision rather than like, oh, I'm scared, so I'm going to grab onto this thing because that looks like the only opportunity where I might make money and i better do that or i'm gonna you know i'm gonna be homeless right exactly exactly yeah that's that's it and and now i'm like i'm a lot

more confident and i and i know that like like listen it's it's like coming back to the breath it's like meditating it's a meditating through life it's a no matter what you can always pull yourself back to center you know what i mean all these things are just like thoughts and fears and and and just fabricated ideas about the worst case scenario of what could happen and and they they'll just spiral off and take you to someplace else. And the fear of something bad usually feels a lot worse than the actual bad thing happening. Yeah, yeah. It's just the anticipation. It's like if you, you know, whatever,

if you know that randomly, I don't know, like a hammer's going to fall down from the sky and crack you on the head and it's going to split your head open if you know that's coming it's going to be like oh man when is it coming you're walking around looking up for it waiting for it to happen but then if it just if it happens one time in your life oh man that happened that fuck that hurt but like you know yeah it's it's no big deal it's like you know know, yeah, it's, it's no big deal. It's like, you know, you get through it. It's just the anticipation, the fear.

And we're, we're built with that to, you know, to, to help us survive, you know, worrying can help you survive in so many instances, but we're such complex beings that we've learned how to take that and let it snowball and manipulate us into these horrible situations. And so now not only do I feel better in training, but just in my life in general, I'm dealing with things a lot better. And the last fight that I had, it went about as bad as as as it could go like worst case what's the worst case scenario yeah you lose you lose and like you get knocked out I mean the only thing that would have been worse is if it like happened in like 30 seconds or something like that which happens to many fighters all the time just because the sport is so unpredictable but during the course of the fight i wasn't doing that good but never once did i get discouraged about it never once was i giving into

worry or or fear or like uh in the past if if fights weren't weren't going my way i would i would start to beat myself up about it in the fight you know i would think would think, man, like, come on, like, what are you doing? Which takes you completely out of the moment of what you're doing, right? Exactly. It takes you out of the moment, yeah. And so you're not present. You're thinking about, oh, I can't, like, I trained so hard. I'm supposed to be doing this, and I can't believe, like, I haven't even landed any punches yet, and, like, what's going on?

And, like, what's wrong with me? And I wasn't letting any of that bother me i mean like i had dealt with some really hard things in the training camp leading up to it i dealt with hard things in the fight that were bothering me and as soon as they started bothering me came back to my breath and just like flowed and like yeah i didn't win the fight but i felt really good in there and i had a great warmup. I had a great time, like going to the ring. It wasn't like, you know, that can be like the most, uh, anxiety filled moment is when you, your walkout, you know what I mean? When you're walking out and I just, I was there, man, I was there for it. And, and it, and it, and it

fell apart and it didn't work the way it was supposed to. But it's like, that's the game we play, man. One guy wins and one guy loses. This is the game, you know, and I'm prepared for that. You know, a lot of people, because the fight ended in such like a brutal way or whatever, a lot of people were really worried about me and they were concerned. Oh, man, are you all right? And I really appreciated the concern because it means that someone cares and and I appreciate that but at the same time I started to get a little annoyed because so many

people were like man I was traumatized by that like people I don't know and my friends and everybody else was like man that was hard to watch and I'm like look it's a fight i can handle it yeah if if i couldn't handle it i wouldn't be there you know what i mean like like that it's it's gonna it's it's all right like you guys were were we're taking it worse than i'm taking it like i like everyone that fights this is a fight you know everyone that fights in the in the UFC knows that that can happen to them or worse. And we've watched way worse stuff happen to people. And it's just that's something that you accept. It goes with the territory.

Yeah, but to be able to have that reaction to it is, somebody could say, well, you're dealing with it so well or you're so mature. But it's really having mastery over your emotional body or your pain body. And I think that when you can do that, it's transformative in so many ways. When you can do that, I mean, I have a friend who says, fear is just praying for the worst possible outcome.

And we don't live in the present moment. We're constantly walking around worried about what's going to happen, outcome you know and we and we don't live in the present moment you know we constantly walk walking around worried about what's going to happen like sort of oh when is the other shoe going to drop or when is that when is all my stuff going to get taken away from me or or this is going to happen and it's going to be terrible or living in the past and thinking god i really screwed that up i'm such an idiot or you'm such an idiot. You're never present and meditation is all about if you can be present, then it's basically a key to the kingdom. You're free from all of that chatter

and none of that chatter serves you. It doesn't serve you in the ring. It doesn't serve you as an athlete. It doesn't serve you as a human being. And how tragic it must be to go through life being preoccupied fully by the past and the in the future and and then not realizing that it was all about being in the present until it's too late you know what i mean and and by the way like whatever you're thinking about what happened in the past probably isn't what happened and probably isn't what other

people are thinking about what happened and all your preoccupation with what's going to happen, 99.9999% of all of that doesn't happen either. So think about how much energy is wasted. It's crazy. It's crazy. It really is. And like I said, I mean, by no means have I mastered this or anything. You know what I mean?

But you're having an experience with it. You're seeing a benefit from it. The biggest thing is that I still get preoccupied with the future and with the past, and I still worry and all that stuff. It's not like all of a sudden, yeah, Max, he's good to go. He's enlightened. He's like Ram Dass now or whatever.

He just walks around and it's just like in the moment 100 of the time practice man your whole life it's with the thing that it is now is i recognize it i mean i would spend weeks and that was what depression was i would spend weeks just being like oh no oh man i'm worried and I'm not feeling good and I don't know what it is and I would sit there and my mind would go spiral spiral downward about all this these scenarios and what happened in the past and people's perceptions of me and and like uh you know what am I going to do in the future and now I mean I still have these these issues and these thought patterns but i recognize them and i say up i i see that i see where that's going i don't need that right

and then i just i pull myself back to the present and and it doesn't always i don't always recognize it right away but i am recognizing it now whereas before i was just oblivious i was just like well i'm thinking and that's what mac does because he's a thinker what it is is what it is is you just demonstrate i've talked about this before on a podcast but when you have that moment and you recognize like oh hey i'm doing this right then and there you're creating you're basically drawing a distinction between your thinking mind, which is not always your friend and generally is attacking you and sending you messages that are not in your best interest,

and your higher consciousness. Your observative mind. Yeah, it's up above you looking down going, hey, Mac, your thinking mind is doing that thing again. Let's reel it in. And that's sort of your higher consciousness checking you you know what i mean and when you're not when you don't you know when you haven't had that training to kind of understand that distinction you just think it's all one like well i'm you know and it's yeah you're just well i'm me and this is how i think and this is who i

am and it's all one thing and being able to say no it's not that actually your brain's like a muscle when it starts doing that thing that it does, you can tell it to stop doing that. Yeah, and the hardest thing, well, not the hardest, but it can be difficult. One of the most difficult things is to do that without harshly judging yourself. And that's the thing that I've found really hard in the beginning,

and I'm trying to do it better. And now it's like the past is the past. And so let's say you're doing something, and you're becoming very reactionary. You're getting mad at somebody. You're getting mad at your kid or something. You're yelling at your kid. And all of a sudden, you observe this situation,

and you say, I don't need to have this negativity. I don't need to be yelling right now. I don't even need to be raising my voice or being inflammatory in any way. And instead of just recognizing it and stopping, recognizing it and being like, hey, it's okay. Don't beat yourself up about it either. You did it. It's in the past you can shut it off right now and it's okay and just come come back to center you know every single time like that sort of thing it's it's it's important and that's again meditation you know like if you sit

there and you dedicate a half an hour an hour to to meditating and you know halfway through you're thinking about bills to pay and you're thinking about oh yeah what am i gonna do about tomorrow and that's stuff is normal the whole thing is you don't want to just be like oh fuck i can't imagine i blew it i can't do this yeah yeah like oh that's interesting i'm thinking of that like okay let's bring it back it's gonna happen yeah of course it's gonna happen yeah it's the the mind is gonna wander you're gonna worry you're gonna have these thoughts the the practice is catching it and like i think that's what the masters do is they they catch it as soon as it

happens they catch it quicker than other people i don't think it's there's any difference other than that they recognize it and catch it sooner and gently pull it back. You know, just like the wrestler who started when he was 11, they have muscle memory. They've been practicing longer. You know what I mean? They're a master of that because they put the work in. Yeah.

You know, we're all human beings. You're not going to transcend the human condition, but maybe you can make it a little bit more palatable so yeah that's interesting um but we're still like in your chronology dude we gotta go back okay we're coming up on we're coming up on two hours and we haven't even talked about like the vegan thing we're gonna have to get into that because people are gonna be pissed okay okay okay but i want to get through so so you win the ultimate fighter i mean did that like how did that did that change everything overnight i mean in a way it did i mean i went from just being this guy who was just trying to make it to like you know that was like and and for whatever it's worth that was the height of

my popularity is among fans and stuff. I remember like after I won that show, just being a, like a guest fighter at the, one of the UFCs at the Mandalay Bay and just like being mobbed by people, like not even be able to go anywhere. Just, you know,

and, and like, I don't know. I didn't really care for that, that side of it too much because it was seemed so, like, it wasn't very authentic. You know what I mean? These people that, like, didn't even really, and you couldn't even tell if they really liked you or knew you or knew.

They just, you were that guy. You were the guy that fought, and, like, you're him, and they want a picture and an autograph. So that sort of thing happened happened which was a strange phenomenon which i found um strange and then um you know it was my little 15 minutes of having like a thimble full of of what you know a real celebrity has like a gallon of every day you know like this this all this attention negative and positive and just you know fake just sort of thrown at you all the time and and it was it was odd and then um but at the same time it felt really good though i mean it was it

was like i'm i finally made it that's really symbolic of like you know hey it wasn't that long ago that you were you know back working at the animal shelter and yeah and i mean it was even even a shorter amount of time that i was just you know like barely getting by working security wherever i could and trying and fighting for 200 bucks and and now i'm i'm gonna be able to make a living doing this. Now I'm going to be able to take this as far as I can take it. And that was a great feeling is just having the resources now and the opportunities and the resources to just take it as far as I could take it. And so that's when I decided to move to Vegas. And you know what I mean? That's when I decided

to try to take what I thought at the time was the best uh training situation I could come up with and and and just you know go with it 100% and and yeah I mean it's there's a lot of ups and downs you know and and um there's you know there's there's a lot of a lot of hardships and a lot of pressure that I put upon myself. I think, I think I put too much pressure on myself and, and, but I mean, that's part of the learning process that had to happen. I don't regret it. I don't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't regret like anything that's happened in the past. I used to have a lot of regrets, but I'm just like, that's, that's, that's part of,

that's part of the story. That's, that's the way it went down. That's the way, you know, it was consecrated. That's, it's supposed to be that way. So. Well, I think, you know, a big kind of sort of part of your journey. And I think what, you know, what I'm drawn to in your story is this priority of always maintaining your authenticity. And that's like a big part of my story and it's kind of like what my book is about. It's definitely a theme of this podcast too, is trying to sort of help people

become more authentic versions of who they are. And I've heard you kind of speak to that a little bit today. I heard you talk about it on Joe's podcast. And you seem to have a very strong sense of who you are. So you have this true north that's kind of always guided you and helped you make the right decision for yourself. Maybe it wasn't the best business decision, or maybe somebody in usc said

hey you want to be big go do this it didn't feel right to you and yeah you know i heard you talking about performance enhancing drugs like on joe's show and kind of how that you know kind of was sort of in the orbit of you know how you had to like navigate through kind of seeing that in your environment and all that kind of thing and and coming out like intact so you can yeah look at yourself in the mirror exactly at the end of the day like i can always know that no matter what that was me out there you know what i mean i don't want to be the guy that was like like yeah i won this fight you know i did it really well or i i won this championship you know but i won it when i was on this stuff, you know.

I mean, like, whatever. Like, if I didn't have any principles or anything, you know, I could do that stuff too, like a lot of these guys are doing. And, you know, I do it right or whatever, could get away with it. But then it's like not only all the health implications and everything, but like what kind of example are you setting for yourself you know what what do you want to do you want to look back on this that this was you doing everything that you could as an artist to to pull this off as best you can or do you want

to look at it as oh yeah well you know if if it's really not a big deal guys don't take it you know what i mean like a lot of these people that take it, they are very nonchalant about it. They're just like, well, it's not that big of a deal. Well, then, hey, why are you taking it? And they might throw something at you. Well, you recover better, and I just want to recover and get my injuries and yada, yada. It's like, yo yo man like that's a

cop-out you know you know how you know how prevalent is it in the sport look like here's the thing i don't want to get you in trouble no no you won't get me in trouble because because i'm not going to name any names but i'm just going to make a blanket statement that that like if i gave an estimate of 80 to 90 percent that would be fairly accurate you know what i mean and and and that means 80 to 90 percent of people doing something and that doesn't and then you've got some guys that run every single thing you could possibly imagine and you've got other guys that like have these half principles and they're like, oh, well, I'll only do HGH because they don't test for that in MMA right now.

And it's not really a steroid, right? And I recover better. And whatever, you've got everybody doing what they do and you've got all sorts of ways that people justify it. But I don't have like access to to like what everybody does and and guys don't just walk around talking about it all the time sometimes they do which is kind of funny but you know you don't know for sure but i've watched guys that would like swear on their mother's deathbed that they have never done it before in their lives and then you go into the

refrigerator to get some water and there's these like pictures of horses and these sterile water and there's all this stuff and it's like oh okay well all right and and there's just this like denial about it i don't know like what that comes from but um because of that it's so hard to say because you know people's careers are at stake and so they're not they're not going to be like hey i do it you know what i mean but uh but yeah how often is that i mean what is the testing protocol i mean is it well right now random drug tests whenever i mean is it under the jurisdiction every now and then they they'll they'll do a random drug test. But for the most part, it's just, well, okay.

They do random drug tests every single event. The main event for every fight is drug test all the time if it's a sanctioned event. And then the other guys on the card, they pick like eight people or ten people at random. And then they pull them and then they didn't know they were going to get tested. And it's just a urine test.

And they have you go before and right after the fight. And then that's basically it. And they don't do it like uh whatever six months before your fight or like when you're actually training and you'd be benefiting from these things right and so like like that's why some organizations like vada are cool because they're they're like you know giving these athletes a chance to voluntarily you know say like hey i'm gonna i'm gonna have these people come and they're gonna come at random times throughout the year and they're just gonna take my blood and it's you know you're gonna be like that type of thing the only thing about vada

is right now they just don't have the resources to do that so it's up to a fighter who has a sponsor that's willing to help you know pay for for that and to voluntarily do it and i wanted to do it but i don't have any sponsors that are willing to pay for it so it's like and yeah it's expensive it's really they're sort of like oh well everybody knows that yeah you're clean it's like well i would actually like to prove it but you know whatever at the end of the day it really only it only matters to me and and i don't really get upset like a lot of guys some there are some guys who don't do it and they get really upset that other people are taking it and i don't mind um that much

to me that's on them because everything we do in life, we have to pay for it at some point. You know what I mean? There's karma in everything. And there's serious health implications to doing this stuff. If it wasn't bad enough, we're hitting each other in the head and making our brains roll around in our head, other in the head and making our brains roll around in our head why would you why would you like replace the testosterone in your body with synthetic testosterone and teach it to to not be able to to produce its own and and raise estrogen levels and just do all this weird stuff

to your thyroid why would you do that you know so if if somebody wants to do it it's on them and i don't really feel like uh upset you know what i mean if somebody is on it and they must be meditating a lot i really i don't know man it's that that's on them you know what i mean i i just i i fighting fighting is a very selfish thing and I'm doing this for, for, for me for a lot of reasons. And, and I can't, I can't, I'm not going to lose any sleep at night knowing how I won or lost any fight, you know? Right. Interesting, man. Well, it's heavy. I mean, even to have that perspective, well, I don't know. I don't want to get to, I mean, you know, that's enough of that. You know what I mean? It is, it is what it is. Hopefully it'll clean up to i mean you know that's enough of that you know what i mean yeah it is it is what it is hopefully it'll clean up i mean in cycling you see you know

now they have you heard of the passport like the blood passport things like that i mean it's not like the ufc is lacking in resources you know what i mean like it's just well it's more of a political decision or a business decision on their part the same same as it is in the NFL or, you know, where it's like, do they want a scandal? Do they want to open up this door? Like, you know,

there's like a can of worms that has to come out first before you can clean it up. Does anybody want it clean? You know? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I mean,

I think, I think the UFC has, they, they've continued to, to do the right thing when they've had these choices and stuff. And I think if they're able to get themselves in a situation where they have as much power as the athletic commissions,

then they may start to implement their own. Like right now, it's just a strange situation because the UFC, who is such a powerful organization, still has to answer to the athletic commissions, and that's how they keep the fight sanctioned and everything. And these commissions aren't really willing to go the extra mile. So it's all about them cooperating with each other. We'll see what happens, but in my career

time, probably nothing is going to drastically change. Usually what happens is there's a scandal and then they have to change. Something will happen, somebody will get busted for whatever and then they'll kind of have to deal with it in a way that they haven't had to.

Yeah, for sure. Anyway, alright man, look, two hours and 10 minutes. We didn't even talk about like VE. You know what I mean? Which is fine with me. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, man, I don't have to talk about that all the time. You and I are two people who have been, for better or for worse,

defined by that. You know what i mean this is our this is our our sort of quiet protest against that on some level exactly more that i can i have other things i can talk about exactly i know i know it's it's it's like on one hand it's a double-edged sword it's like it's really really good on one hand it's great for so many reasons but on the other hand it's like like is that all you do you guys just see a vegan when you look at me come on i'm more than that but uh it's interesting yeah and i i struggle with that i know you do you know you have like you sort of wear the mantle but you're also uncomfortable with it and you're not always

like you're gonna talk about it but not like i don't really want to talk about it that much but like everyone wants then you'll show up on a pita poster but then you're like, I don't talk about it, but not like, I don't really want to talk about it that much. But then you'll show up on a PETA poster, but then you're like, well, I don't want to do that. It's hard. I'm conflicted with these sort of things because I don't like to label myself. You know what I mean? Well, as soon as you do that, then you're in a camp,

and that's who you are, and that's your identity. I don't. The only label I have is the name my mom gave me when i was born as mac like like i don't really like you know people always want to you know whatever discussion if it's a philosophical discussion oh so you're agnostic or no wait you're atheists like i'm neither i'm none like i don't need to to have a word that defines me. But other people do. Right.

As human beings, we want to categorize. Classify everything. I look at you, all right, which box do I have to check to figure out who you are? And at the same time, I've talked about this before also, people love to be, they want to, what team are you on? Like, are you a cheese head? You know, are you with the Packers or are you, you know, you with the Patriots, you know, like who are you voting for? Who is your, who are you getting behind? And like,

I'm on this team, you know, I'm on the vegan team and, you know, and guess what? Max on my team too. You know what I mean? So I have a team yeah yeah and then you go out in the world and and you say x y and z to some reporter and they're like rah rah rah see max on our team and then and then the next day you say something else and they're like that's not what i want him to say right and then suddenly yeah they're like hey i thought you were on our team it's yeah man it's it's crazy you just summed it up perfectly i mean and that's that's why it's just so weird to watch the way that that people react to these sorts of things and and our everything is based on that mentality that you just explained it's why we have this

two-party system and then you know with within politics and it's like you need to pick one side of the other and it's got to be this way or it's got to be that way. And it's like, look, like I use the word vegan because it's a quick word that can explain. I mean, like, do you want me to spend 15 minutes explaining the nuances? Okay, look, like, yes, I don't buy things that are made of leather. I don't, you know, I don't eat this. I don't eat that. You know, like, do I need to go through all that so no i'm like yeah i have a vegan diet

as a consumer um everything is my lifestyle is is vegan but like and and and it's so weird too because if i denounce that if i'm like look like i don't want to be labeled that then I offend this entire subculture of people more than half of whom are actually really cool awesome courageous people who want to make a positive change in the world you know and then like maybe the other half or less or like you know scenesters that are just jumping on some bandwagon because they're kind of into it and they want to be a part of something. But there's a lot of really cool, authentic people that are involved in it.

I just don't like, like, yeah, boxing myself and classifying myself. And I don't like to constantly feel like I need to classify other people, you know? And I feel like it's a great subculture in a lot of ways and there's there's a lot of connections that can be made but i the the the biggest problem is when you commit to saying like i'm this way and you everybody else needs to change and do this or i don't want to have anything to do with them then And then when you do that, when you pick that side and then everyone that you associate with has to be a part of this label and everything,

then you polarize the situation and you make it so that other people have to act react defensively and people are taught to act defensively anyway as it is you know i mean even if you're the kindest most uh compassionate open-minded gentle person on earth if you are you know trying to explain to the people that you only eat vegetables, they get mad at you. Not everybody, but a lot of people do. It's really weird. There's a certain level of insecurity.

And, man, if you turn this thing into a religion, well, then you can forget it. You know what I mean? I mean, like the last thing I want is people knocking on my door telling me that I need to join their church so so when when you when you go on a crusade like that no matter what the uh the the the thing is that you're trying to promote you're you're gonna run that risk you know what i mean and and a lot of them have that attitude well it's you know it doesn't matter then if they don't want to be a part of it, that's fine.

I think that everybody should have the opportunity to be able to wake up to what's going on in the world today and why someone might want to make responsible choices as a consumer. You know what I mean? I think that everybody deserves that opportunity and they need to know the truth without having it forced down their throat or without being, like nobody,

like even the most religious, religious people that I know, like if they were like super pushy about it, I wouldn't be friends with them. You know what I mean? So why would you do that about anything else? You know, that's my whole stance. And I don't want to push anything on anybody. It's up to them if they want to see what's going on.

I would rather lead by example. You know what i mean and that doesn't mean i completely denounce like this scene or this subculture like i said i've met so many cool people that have been involved with it and i and i'm like i'm so happy to be a part of of a movement that includes a lot of like open-minded people that actually care, that actually give a shit, you know? And so like, it's hard, there's two sides to it, but I just do not like constantly like try, like classifying myself in that sort of way.

It's just not, it's not fair. It's like demeaning to the individual to label yourself and be like, I'm a Democrat or I'm a Republican or I'm a whatever. I'm a Scientologist or who knows. So being a part of those sorts of things, to me, it's more polarizing than, you know, and you're not recruiting that many people, you know what I mean? And if you want to open more people's minds, you have to do it in a nurturing way. You can't force things down people's throats. They're defensive enough as it is. Right. No, there's no question about that.

I mean, and so balancing that against, I mean, look, the truth is that, you know, your lifestyle, your way of eating is interesting and different, you know, particularly in your, you know, in the subculture of the UFC and the MMA. It's like it's the kind of thing, Bodhi just came down our dog. He's going to say hi. You know, it's something that, you know, draws attention to yourself and people want to know about it. You know what I mean? So you get asked about it all the time.

Yeah, yeah. And so there's the opportunity to like, hey, this is what I believe in. Like, let's talk about what I believe in. But delivering that in a way that is not like, hey, I'm up on the pulpit talking down to you or you're just, I mean, for me, I think as long as I root everything in my own experience, like, hey, I'm just sharing, this is what I've experienced personally. And I don't make like, you know, generalizations or platitudes about it, then I'm okay with it.

But yeah, it does. It gets really tricky and emotions run high, man. You know what I mean? It can be intense. And I remember just kind of going back to the whole Joe Rogan thing. I was nervous to go on that show you know because it was sort of on the heels of rob wolf being on and talking about paleo and it's like i know that i'm there because he wants to ask me about being vegan that's really the only

reason i'm there and i'm glad to be there and he was super cool yeah but i better like equip myself well or like the whole death squad army is going to turn on me you know it could be like a really negative experience you know and it ended up being great and it was fun and awesome and joe couldn't have been cooler but it's a very you know it can be like an intense thing you know and it's like we're talking about our food choice right you know what i mean like exactly you you were very diplomatic by the way you put the screws at me a couple times and then i listened to it now and i was like i should have said that well you know yeah you know you could yeah i mean i feel like that about so many different

things but but yeah i mean there's i i feel like i feel like joe has has some ideas, and I feel like he's one of the people who is annoyed by the vegan crusade team subculture. You know what I mean? And a lot of people are. And it's unfortunate because these people mean well. They're so passionate about the way they feel about things that they just, they can't help being religious about it. Yeah, the way that I always sort of, for a long time I was kind of baffled by that

because I don't really kind of, I don't have that perspective. And I was like, what are you doing? You're just turning people off. But then I thought about it more and the more I think about it, the more I kind of sympathize and understand it, which is I think about it, the more I kind of sympathize and understand it, which is I think that there are certain people that come into the world hypersensitive, and they're just wired in a certain way where they see animal cruelty, and they can't tolerate it.

They just physically, emotionally, spiritually can't tolerate it. They're hyper, hypers't tolerate it. They're hyper, hyper sensitive to it. And so they, and what, what happens is they can't understand why everyone doesn't have that kind of emotional reaction to it that they have. And so they start to say like, Hey, look, don't you see, look what's happening. And then people are like, don't want to hear about it. And then they get progressively more frustrated over the years. And then, and then that frustration turns into anger

right and then before they know it they're shouting and you know all this kind of thing happens you can see the evolution of it um because it's just like it's frustration that other people don't see the world that the way that they do and that is not something that is you know that only occurs in in that world it occurs in in any movement where people are passionate and have a different perspective on things than maybe the mainstream does yeah man that's so well put that's absolutely right and and yeah you see it in in so many other things and and now like just take for example uh you know what's going on in corporation and government and then you've got a lot of people that that uh you know like even people like that i know there that i

follow on twitter and stuff it's like they're really really into um exposing all these things i guess we should should we hold on to the siren siren all right but um uh they're into exposing the truth and then they they get caught up in it so much that they're so at the end of the day they're screaming and they're so easily written off now as conspiracy theorists as as you know some conspiracy theorist nut who's believes in this and that no yeah everybody's trying to control you sure the government soon isn't that the fact of the matter is these things are happening but but you know when no one listens and and you're going about it that way it's so easy to get to get angry and so easy to get frustrated and it's so easy to start calling out like hey why don't you people wake up don't you see what's

going on and not everybody has like ignorance is bliss and a lot of people are admittedly just happy in their blissful ignorance and they don't want to know you know what i mean and they don't and they don't i mean i've even had people like with the vegan thing like good people say like that i've known for a while say like bro i can't watch those videos and i'm like yeah i don't really watch them either i've seen them i know what they are i don't need to watch them i don't need to put myself through that videos like earthlings or you know yeah yeah yeah animal cruelty videos and they'll say something like like i can't watch those videos because then it'll make me feel like uh like i i shouldn't eat you know eat meat and stuff and and i feel like i've got to and i'm like

okay well whatever dude well it's the matrix you know what i mean it's sort of like you're gonna take the red pill or you want to be like Joey Pants and say, I was happier when I was in the matrix. Let me be a, I want to be a movie star and have a nice house and I don't want to think about this stuff anymore. I'll tell you what, man. I mean, the decision for me, once I realized that it was feasible and it wasn't going to hinder me in any way, it was so easy.

I mean, once I realized, like, it's so incredibly easy and so many people have that reaction. Oh, I could never do that. And I can't imagine doing that. And the only reason, that's just, it's all in your head. I mean, you know, like the idea that you can't do something or that that would be hard. It's like it's not hard. Well, I think when people say they can't, they're just saying,

they're really saying like, I don't want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you've been doing it. I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. 2004, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it continues to evolve, right? Like when we talked the other day, you're like, I'm doing the 80-10-10 thing.

And that's like a really hot thing right now. Essentially, 80% of your calories are carbs. 10% from protein, 10% from fat. It all stems from this book by Douglas Graham. And if you've listened to this show, you heard my interview with Michael Arnstein, the runner, ultra runner, who calls himself the fruitarian.

Yeah, yeah. And he jams on it and he's like, dude, you know, like I'm telling you, like I never would have expected it, but I feel amazing. His marathon time, like, you know, just dropped through this it, but I feel amazing. His marathon time just dropped through this floor when he started doing it. And so it's funny because that book was written a long time ago, but now it seems to be having this little bit of a moment right now where a lot of

people are trying this and checking it out. And it's something that I haven't explored and don't know that much about, but I have some friends that are doing it who are experiencing great results with it, and I'm certainly not one to judge anybody's diet. And you started just playing around with this recently, right? Yeah, you know, man, it's all from like I was motivated to do it by that dude, Harley, the Durian rider. Yeah. You know. Talk about outspoken.

He's an outspoken guy. Yeah, yeah. I admire him. I mean, you know, I admire he's got, what's that called, like chutzpah or something? Very much so, yeah. He's got that. yeah he's got that so so basically um i've i've always been one of the the people that still um you know i've i've always explained to people that the protein requirements that we've been led to believe that we need are blown out of proportion and all that and when anybody

asks me well where do you get your protein you know you get protein from here and you get protein from there i'm always like instead of taking the route that a lot of people who are vegan or plant-based athletes will take well they will start explaining well this has this much protein in it and this has this much protein and you can get it from here and you can get it from here and they start naming all these sources i instead of like going on about that i'm always just like look you don't need as much as they think years as as we're led to believe that we need like the body needs protein yes it needs protein that does not need nor can it absorb the amount of protein that these people are telling you to put into your body but I would still you know I'm always like like the the fats thing I'm like okay like you know we need the good fats we need like a better ratio of omega-3s to 6s which is very true but but like

you know I'm I was always putting these healthy fats into me. And I've been doing this for years. And I find it really easy for me to like to binge on foods, you know, whether they're healthy or not. I've always found it easy to like fall into that sort of thing, eating large quantities of foods and eating lots of calories. And I don't know where that stems from. of foods and leaving lots of calories and um i don't know where that stems from you know i grew up like where there's you know more times than i can count situations where i did not have enough to eat and you know where you know i wouldn't say we were like starving but like a couple times we were starving and we just didn't have enough money for food. And then once I got older and I became an adult

and I had the resources to buy good food, I mean, I'm all about it. And so there's a million ways to do the vegan diet. And just because someone's vegan doesn't mean they're healthy. And I mean, I've done every single possible way of eating the vegan diet, lots of times just emotionally eating and sometimes eating for health and and for you know for this and for that but i've always been like trying to balance out these good fats and the protein and the carbs and all this stuff but i've really like come to realize that um that when i when i decided to try this 80 10 10 thing i guess

i should i point out for the people who don't know there's a couple different ways you can go about doing it um 80 of the the calories that you consume in a day coming from carbohydrates that can come from there's there's a there's the mcdougall camp who subscribe to the starch theory so then they're like okay we'll just eat your rice eat your potatoes yeah eat all this this stuff and and and um then the other side is more of the uh eat the fresh fruit and have have almost all of those carbs or all of them coming from raw, fresh fruit. And that's the, the, that's what I'm subscribing to. And I've only been doing this for about three and a half months now. I started about a month before my fight, this last fight.

And when I did, I was, I was, I count calories when I'm trying to get ready for a fight and cut weight. And I was struggling. I was doing the thing that I normally do, lots of good fats and trying to do greens and trying to keep my calories low. And foods that are high in fat are really calorically dense and they don't really always, if you're counting calories, they don't really always fill you up. If you you're trying to keep it like under 2000 or something like that a spoonful of uh coconut oil and you know it's not gonna make you full and you're just that's your whole day yeah exactly yeah so so um i and i in and i was struggling with energy and

everything and i always have gone through this and i've always just written it off to, well, I'm in the weight cutting phase now and this is just the way it is. And you got to suffer and you got to deal with this. And then I, I started watching his stuff and I was like, you know what? I'm going to try this, tried it for a couple of days, immediately felt better. And then I was like, you know what what this is just my body's like immediate reaction to a change and it feels good but it'll probably I'll probably start to like feel pretty crappy in a couple weeks right have felt it's been three and a half months I've felt nothing but good the entire time and um I eat as and and the great thing about it is after the fight like uh what i would always do after the fight is you know you've restricted your calories to try to make weight so then you end up

binging and then i would always like you know say to myself well i'll indulge in some junk food because you know i deserve it because i've been working so hard and then the next thing i know i'm 187 pounds and I'm like dude like come on what is what is up with that what is wrong with you and I get you know like depressed and mad at myself and a lot of fighters go through that fluctuation because they're always roller coaster dieting so I decided to stay on a diet but go ahead and do like they say. You can binge eat a little bit. Just eat fruit. And I've been doing that. And I am 20 pounds less consistently waking up at like 165 where I'd normally at this time be like 185.

I'm not dealing with inflammation at all anymore. And I'm eating until I'm full and I'm satisfied. And I feel good and i've got energy and stuff you know what i mean and like a lot of the things like that that uh those guys say like the people that are outspoken about this diet will be like well hey you know like these high protein high fat guys they're always on the coffee and the reason why they are is because they've got no energy because they've they're not eating enough carbs and they're eating all this fat and this protein. And they call these people out on it.

I'm not about to do that, but I'll mention the fact that I think I agree with that. The fruitarian and 80-10-10 people are very opposed to the paleo diet, which is the exact opposite in so many different ways. Right now, the stage is being held by this very low carb you know kind of craze and you know yeah yeah and see like here's the thing i've come to realize too by reading up enough about this and from my own experiences recently that that um the the carbs can be bad if you are mixing them with lots of fats you know what i mean that's when you get that glycemic load and that's when you get the sugar crashes and all those feelings

because you're you're you're mixing it with the fats but if you keep your fat levels low and you and you don't need that much protein i mean i feel great i've i haven't lost any strength i can still lift as much as i normally would i haven't lost any muscle and i'm waking up the same way that i was waking up the week before the weigh-in and i'm satisfied i've got energy and i'm feeling good and i'm feeling strong and i can still you know like easily you know whatever do 20 pull-ups like is it you know like and the only reason i hate even like mentioning it the only reason why i mentioned is because everybody's just like what everyone's gonna say is well what about strength and you're losing your muscle

you're not getting enough protein it's like i i plugged in everything that i ate the other day um just to see you know like like in the nutrition day just to see, you know, like in the nutrition calculator, just to see like, okay, I'm eating all this fruit, hardly anything else. Let's see like how much protein I'm actually getting and how much fat I'm actually getting. And like, I didn't even try to like calculate it as 80, 10, 10. I just put in how much i was doing by these guidelines and it was like 82 98 or something like that and all i got like 78 grams of protein from uh just from fruit people don't realize that like like people look at a banana or something they're like oh that only has like a gram or a gram and a half of protein and that's that much, and we're always hung up on these ratios.

And it's like, but if you eat the fruit throughout the day, you end up getting enough protein. You know what I mean? Your body cannot absorb as much protein as all these people have been going around trying to say that you need to get. And you know what? It kind of frustrates me because these people like Rob Wolf and that other, the guy that's constantly peddling products on Rogan's podcast,

the Asprey guy, these guys, he's horrible. He's so full of it, by the way. The guy says, he'll say four or five things that are spot on, and then he'll just make these blanket statements based on these cockamamie, like what does he go on, PubMed? Right, well, I think with Asprey, like he seems to have, there's a smattering of good ideas and then there's the smattering of regurgitated science and he's a smart guy, so he can talk fast

and he throws enough ideas out there where you're like, oh, he sounds compelling and legitimate. And it takes a moment to like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to put butter in my coffee? He totally pulled the wool over Joe's eyes. He also said that, I mean, first of all, he's not an athlete. He's like, I exercise 45 minutes a month or a week or something like that. It was like, so right there I was like, all right, right well he can't speak to what i have to yeah and and what

and what what is what is he um proving that that was my whole question is a lot of these people like what what are you where's your example of uh of the great health is it you that say that you don't work out that much and then you've got fat guy abs with a little bit of definition that's supposed to speak to like like some part of the population that wants to look that way i mean like what is it that you can actually do like you're talking about your iq tests and all these sorts of things which are all just subjective like like i'll take the pe the Pepsi challenge with this guy. You know what I mean?

Like, what do you want to do? A foot race? Do you want to read a book? And we'll both like, do you like what, like what report? Yeah. You know what, what about anything you're doing? It like proves that, that your diet is somehow superior. Now I don't mind people saying like hey i do this diet

like this is what i'm into but when you start selling people products and you start making money off of it and your whole thing is you're you're like like peddling products then it's it starts becoming really that's the whole thing like i've got my stance and my stance is that like this is what i do and i really don't care if anyone else does it, and that's on you. You know what I mean? But the moment you try to sell people things, and then you start making statements like, well, I mean, if someone is vegan, they're going to have B12 deficiency. And vegan children are proven to have lower brain function and all this stuff. And so you go to this guy's website and you're like, what is he talking about, lower brain function?

And you see this blanket statement like vegans have, vegan children have lower brain function. And you click on the actual reference to it. The reference is to some study with like 25 people in 1995 in Florida that was completely inconclusive. But nobody goes to the trouble of checking on these links for this supposed proof for these statements. And so he's making blanket statements about inconclusive studies with 25 people. And I looked on the thing that was, he was making a statement about veganism. And it was a study about the macrobiotic diet in 1995 in Florida with like 20 people.

It's like, dude, like now you're just lying. You know what I mean? So anyway, I apologize. I'm like, this guy isn't here to defend himself. It's wrong of me. So I'm not going to put you in this situation anymore I got way off on track but what what was I saying you're talking about coffee yeah oh right like the high the low carb high fat yeah yeah yeah and so like the a lot of

the people that are doing the the 80 10 10 are like hey the reason why these people need like the coffee all the time and all these stimulants and everything is because they're consuming all this stuff that doesn't give them enough energy. And I can tell you from my, like, I'm not going to say it works for everyone. Doug Graham and Harley, those guys will say it can work for everybody. I will say it works for me. It's working for me so far, and it's working excellently. I will say it works for me. It's working for me so far and it's working excellently. And, and I've,

I just know that, um, like for me, carbohydrates have always been so important. I've always felt like I've needed them. And anytime that I've sacrificed that in my diet for protein and fat intake, I pay the price because the body hat, when you're training twice a day like two and a half hours each time your body needs energy and it's good and and as much as you're breaking down your muscles and you need this protein and all this stuff your body needs to convert those protein and fat molecules into energy you know what i mean like and how is it gonna do how is it gonna break those calories those calories down into energy and and your liver has to you know what i mean like all this other stuff has to happen it's so hard for your body to do and as soon as i turned over to the fruit diet i started feeling amazing and i've felt amazing ever since and my weight is low and like i'm so happy that i'm waking up at 165 pounds i

mean it's it's huge for me you know what i mean it's like that's i'm not inflamed either that's a big thing and it's inflammation like when i would eat like high amounts of fats even the good fats you know i'm talking like i'm not talking like margarine and cooking with olive oil i'm talking like um you know chia seeds hemp seeds walnuts like all these good fats and coconut and everything and and the stuff that i still eat just in smaller quantities uh there was always uh i'm very very sensitive to inflammation because um i have a deviated septum and so I've only got like 10% capacity of air through one nostril and like 30% through the other.

So just the slightest amount of inflammation in the sinuses, and all of a sudden I can't breathe. Yeah, yeah. So it's like a very, very tight gauge that I have there for that. And that has made it really easy for me to tell. And as soon as I start like like deviating from this no pun intended from this diet like i will not be able to breathe you know so that's amazing i mean yeah i'm gonna have to try this because like too many people are saying like you

know like i've i've talked to too many people that are having really great experiences with it. So I can't ignore it. You know what I mean? And it's compelling when, look, it's one thing if a guy who likes to go out and run 50-mile races talks about it, an endurance athlete or somebody whose kind of sport is reliant on being pretty slight. But when a strength athlete, somebody whose prowess relies on speed pretty slight, you know, but when a strength athlete, somebody who's prowess relies on speed, power, and you know, just pure strength and maneuverability, that's different, you know what I mean? And so you're the first kind of non-endurance,

I mean, MMA is an endurance sport, but it's different, it's skills, strength, speed, all that kind of thing to uh to talk about it and uh that's interesting yeah it's you know when another thing that and this this might only pertain to me because i find that a lot of other people don't have problems with with the whole portion control thing but i've always been one of those people who's like like uh especially later on in my life is once i started to eat large quantities per meal i it's been very hard for me to start just like having little snacks and stuff

like that and i know a lot of people like i mean like my buddy gray maynard is a professional fighter and like he's still you know he's eating what he wants right now but he's still, you know, he's eating what he wants right now, but he's just controlling the portions. And to me, that's the hardest thing is controlling the portions. It's like being an alcoholic and saying, I'm only going to have like six beers this week. Right, right. Oh, you're in pain the whole time. I'm a foodaholic.

I don't like playing that game. It's painful for me to play that game. So the great thing is I eat until i'm full whenever i want you know what i mean like i'll have i'll have three bananas and i'm like okay like i want a few more and i have a few more and then i have a few nectarines and then i go and i eat a bunch of mango and then i'll have some watermelon and i'm like okay i'm cool and then like if in an in an hour i feel like having more, I'll have more. And I'll cut open a pineapple and then just eat it.

It's great. And I feel good. So you're sort of like, or you just feel like you're just grazing all day long? Or do you sit down and have meals? No, I'll sit down and have a meal and I'll become really complete. I'll just have a thing of grapes, maybe like two pounds of it or something like that. And then I'll just have I'll have like a thing of grapes maybe like two pounds

of it or something like that and then I'll just be good for a little while and then like I'll have some fruit and then a big salad you know like a really big salad and then I'll be good for for a while and like I find it different all the time like a lot of people say like when they're doing this that they only eat like twice a day and they just gorge themselves and other people say they graze but i find myself grazing a little bit and then other times i'll just i'll graze and then i'll have a big meal and then i'll just be done for like the rest of the day and i won't even want anymore and then other times i i binge like four or five times it's just it's all like what my body needs i'm listening to my hunger and then just satisfying

it right away with mostly fruits and vegetables and mostly raw and then you know a little bit you know every now and then i want something that's a little bit different and i'm not like completely raw on it you know i'm not eating a lot of rice or potatoes or anything like that but beans or anything like that or what i mean what are you doing that or that's cooked like yeah the stuff that i like do that's not raw and and i think i'm going to transition away from this eventually but like i'm still every now and then having uh like hummus that doesn't have any oil in it or something you know what i mean like no oil-free hummus or like um like i still had like uh some tofu and stuff like like some baked tofu just a little bit of that every now and then but i'm i'm feeling like i'm gonna transition away from that and do it

like mostly raw uh like here pretty soon but that stuff has been like my little all every now and then or all like oh there's some like whatever like some kale chips or something like that that sort of thing that's that's been like my but but i mean my diet in the past was always just like all over the place you know like eating at like indian restaurants and thai food restaurants and and just you know just having all this amazing salty fat food and right it's pretty easy to eat a junk food vegan diet sure sure i'm like the the i'm like the yellow curry with tofu yeah you know buffalo wings at veggie grill or something like that you kind of mean like exactly that are tasty but you know that's not what you should be doing

if you want to be performing but so do you do um there's a lot of noise. Sorry. I think staying away from, I think staying away from oil is the one big thing. I don't think it means like necessarily like staying away from fats and I'll still have like some nuts and stuff like that. But, but staying away from the oil. Like sort of store-bought almond butter and things like that. Right, right, right, right. There's a lot of oil in that. almond butter and things like right right right right oil and that or things that like basically not having anything that has like added oil in the ingredients like anything that was like oh well this is like canola oil or like i'm gonna cook something and i'm gonna cook it with some olive

oil like i'm just staying away from from that completely you do like you do like blended drinks or juicing yeah yeah yeah yeah i had yeah this morning i had a smoothie it was probably about a thousand calories it was like um a ton of frozen mangoes um and then uh i think three bananas um some pineapple some blueberry um some kale and then uh i i put like a half a scoop or like a quarter of a scoop of the uh mango flavored vega smoothie mix in there and um i think i just just water and and maybe some strawberries yeah and and just blended that all up and it was it was amazing right i mean so many mangoes you know when they're fresh man there's nothing like it and do you got like when i had uh arnstein on the show he's talking about how he has he goes to the fruit wholesalers and like basically backs a

truck up and the spot you know he has to have he has like four refrigerators or something like that because he's buying so much fruit and storing it as he's like dude he's like listen it's i'm telling you it's it's like not the easiest thing you know like it's like it's expensive and like you know it's not like normal you know it's not like it doesn't doesn't really fit into you know mainstream society i mean he's made it work and all of that but uh see i'm not quite at that level but but I will admit that my fridge is completely full most of the time. I mean, I just bought two fig trees that I'm planting in the backyard. You're committed. I never had figs.

I mean, I've had dried figs like five times in my life, and I was never really that impressed by them. And they're ripe now, and they're're fresh and they're so good and i've just been buying them and i'm like i'm uh it it opens this door all of a sudden you start trying all this different stuff and like well i've had medjool dates let me try let me try these dates you know just trying all these different types of dates and all this stuff and it's it's it's interesting because just like with the vegan diet how a lot of people will say actually it's not restrictive once i turned vegan it opened up the door to all these amazing different foods out there this is doing the same thing for me it's like there's it's not just fruit like yeah you can do

what some of these people do and say like yeah just like 30 bananas a day or whatever and sure you can you can do that but like to me it's like i like the variety i like having green grapes and red grapes and you know like pineapple mango papaya like you know star fruit like all this like different stuff you know that's out there and and all these like plums and nectarines and peaches and white peaches and all these different kinds of apples and there's all this stuff and it's it's so cool it's it's really given it's it's helping me out a lot and it's making me feel good about diet and good about my weight again and i mean if you would have asked me well what's your typical diet like

you know just even a few months ago you know i would have told you you know that the the same thing that i've always been saying oh well i'm eating good and I'm eating like the cashews and walnuts and the chia seeds and I get the greens and I get this and that. And it's always, it's still good, but I was having such a hard time eating till I was satisfied and not getting a little bit over what I should. Over weight-wise? Yeah, and for me, you you know when I say I'm fat

I'm not fat right I mean you're hyper hyper you know sensitive and aware what your way is it every day yeah sure sure sure but I would be inflamed and I would have a certain amount of inflammation you know I mean in my joints and my sinuses and I could tell and now I don't deal with that at all anymore well that's you know that's the promised land mean, the more you can reduce that kind of inflammation, it's like people out there know. But you take an insurance policy out against getting sick. Your body repairs itself more quickly.

You're functioning better. You recover more quickly between workouts. And if you can do that, then you can train harder and you can train longer and protract that over a course of a season and you're going to see some serious performance gains. Yeah, definitely. So it'll be interesting to see like if and when you get back into like a hardcore training routine, like how it holds up. Yeah.

Especially through like, I've seen how it works with endurance athletes and it works, it works fine by the people that I know that are doing it. How does it work you know with maintaining and building strength right right right now speed mobility all that kind of stuff i'd be interested to have you come back and talk about that yeah man i'd love to and like like just i mean the the last four weeks of my training are the most intensive and that's when i trained that's when you were doing it right that's when I was doing it and it felt great.

And like, I mean, you know, like the fight itself didn't go that great, but there's been many fights in my career that didn't go that great. And there've been many fights that did go great. You know, it's just, that's more a technical thing. Right, it wasn't like, oh, my diet was off for this. Not at all.

I've never felt that good in between rounds before i mean like after the first round you know the the first round was kind of even he probably won the first round because i really didn't connect with anything and he connected with a couple things but it was just like not not a lot happened there was a lot of like uh you know stuff going on and a lot of attempts, but nothing much happened. But I didn't feel even the slightest bit tired. I felt great. You know what I mean?

And that's the one thing, like, the worst case scenario happened. I lost the fight. I got knocked out. It was bad. But then, like, afterwards, man, I mean, I'm just like, dude, I'm staying on this diet. I feel great. Like, I'm not going to change and, like, you and like wallow in self-pity or any of this crap and go eat a bunch of cookies like I always do.

I'm going to stay on this. I mean, like this is great. Did you have some – you have to break some craving cycles to get there? I didn't get any cravings. That was the whole thing because I'm always satisfied with this stuff. Yeah, and like I mean it's so weird because i'm always satisfied with this stuff yeah and like i mean it's so weird because i was always one of those people that was would mention like hey just because i'm vegan it doesn't mean i eat like a rabbit like i don't go around just like having

handfuls of spinach and stuff like i eat you know my you know like like i'll have like this awesome curry thing or i'll have like you know this veggie burger thing that's gluten-free and like i you know i eat french fries sometimes and all this stuff and the now it's like dude heirloom tomatoes are so fresh right now they're in season and i'll just have i'll eat one of those like someone eats an apple. And I mean, that just sounds like a lot of people that it's a put off to them because they're just like, oh, that's crazy. Because it doesn't appeal to them because they're like stuck in the junk food cycle. I mean, I admit when I'm eating like soy ice cream all the time, when I used to do that in the past. Then that's what you crave.

You create a cycle around that. Yeah. Someone might be like, hey, have some delicious grapes. And I'd be like, like, that's what you crave you create a cycle around yeah someone might be like hey have some delicious grapes and i'd be like like that's not even sweet i need real sweet you know what i mean like it's not even i can't even register it but now i'm like yes like like just give me the grapes like just give me the fruit and i'm not interested in that other stuff because yeah i know that as soon as i eat it it might feel good going down but i'm gonna pay for it i'm gonna feel bad i'm gonna have inflammation yeah so well the one thing i can say for sure is that the people that i've talked to that have that are on the 80 10 10 um and then

people i'm just aware of like like harley like durian, they are the most enthusiastic, very enthusiastic, you know, they're like, yeah, you understand it's, you know, like they, they're like, it's, it's like, like they're brimming over with excitement about how good they feel. And, uh, and, and part of me is like, Whoa, calm down. You know what I mean? And then the other part of me is like, well, no, that's, they're authentically saying, you know, this is like, they're not like, well, no, they're authentically saying, they're not BSing. This is how they feel. There's something going on here. So it's fascinating.

I'm trying to get Doug Graham on the podcast. Oh, that would be cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it's, I could do it by Skype, but I want to do it with him in person. He was just in LA not too long ago, I think, but I don't know that he has any plans to be here anytime soon. Yeah.

See, that's the thing with my podcast. There was a couple times, there was more than a few times, and I was like, you know, I have some friends in the UK, and I have some friends on the East Coast, and I was like, I should do this via Skype. I've done other people's podcasts via Skype, and I should do this. But then I got so much flack for like the audio as it was. And I was using mics and like a little task amp thing.

And I was like doing all this audio stuff. And I'm like, man, like if people don't like that, they're really not gonna like a Skype interview over webcams though. I mean, I think the thing with Skype is you just miss that extra thing. Like if we were to do this by Skype, we would have shut this thing down after an hour.

You know what I mean? And it's like, you're like kind of looking at your phone during, while you're talking, you know, it's just not the same experience. You know what I mean? You don't have that.

Like when you're sitting across from somebody and you allow that space for something different to happen, you know, I've done Skype interviews and they're fine. They're good. They're totally fine and good. Yeah. Yeah good yeah but i always want to i'd always prefer to like yeah and the great thing about the podcast is it like that's allowed me to meet a lot of cool people yeah i mean like selfishly like yeah yeah you know now i have an excuse to harass somebody and these are connections too you know what i mean like when you have a dialogue like this somebody, you bond with them and then that's a real connection. Even though like it's like, this is like a, like we created this because we're like, we want to have a podcast and we're also talking to an and I have already known each other anyway, but when you meet someone

and you have a dialogue with them, it's like that's a real connection. That's cool. When was the last time you sat down with someone and had a three-hour conversation? I can't remember. Probably the last time I did a podcast. Yeah, I know.

Exactly, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's what we did here. I think we broke the record on length here. We're at three hours i apologize don't apologize it's awesome you know what i mean thank you for being so generous with your time thanks for having me talk all this stuff out and i could definitely you know we could go on so yeah we're gonna do it we're in the same area so yeah bring nova up hang out at the house

we'll do it again yeah man that would be awesome you good man you cool anything else you want to talk about um no man um i'm good man i think i i think i covered uh a lot of stuff we did we hit on a lot of things i think yeah i think i rambled on for a while and you know yeah i'm good to go cool so um excuse me if people want to uh connect with you uh you're on twitter at mac danzig mma yeah yeah is there anywhere else online where no not really dude you don't even have like a website you're not even rocking a website right now are you you had a photography site yeah yeah okay let me explain my photography site that it's funny. Like me not being someone who has a lot of time to deal with stuff like that. We got to sort you out.

Okay. The guy that was doing my website, he wasn't actually doing it, but he's been helping me for years, and he just would like pay for the domain name. Well, like for some reason he changed his card over or something, and it didn't charge him. And the email notice got sent to his spam. Long story short, yeah, he didn't renew the domain because he didn't think about it. And then some company in Japan, some spam company just like a bot, like bought the-

Botnac.com. Yeah, photography.com. And so like, yeah, so now you can, so if anyone's, yeah, I want to say this. If, if anyone's interested in my photography, it's macdanzigphoto.net. That's the new one. And it's, it's not macdanzigphotography.net. It's macdanzigphoto.net, all one word. And that's, that's, that's my photography site. Who's got macdanzig.com um that's been had since i was on the show and right after the show i tried to buy it yeah and and and they're

like holding it for ransom and they want like a lot of money for it so more money than i'm willing to spend but anyway i'm not on facebook never will be um there's a facebook fan page for me that like my manager or like my coach is is is working on you might have seen it and that's yeah it's not a good way to get a hold of me but like there's some info and stuff on there which is fine but yeah Mac Danzig MMA on Twitter is is really my only sometimes you're on there and sometimes you're not yeah I'm not on there all the time, but I do check it. And then, yeah, I'm going to get a website together, and then it'll be a website that I can be booked for speaking engagements, and then it will also have information about a diet and a blog.

And I'm not saying I'm going to keep up on the blog constantly, but I will, I will do it more and have like more diet examples and have more, more, more stuff, like more information. And then also links to the photography and links to what I'm doing involved with MMA and coaching people and things like that.

So it'll sort of be like a jack of all trades type of, of website, but I'm going to get that up soon. And, uh, yeah, it'll be good. All right jack of all trades type of of website but i'm gonna get that up soon and yeah it'll be good all right man cool yeah all right man you're an inspiration uh thanks for taking the time thank you for having me all right we'll get you back on soon thanks man take care peace plants Thank you.