The Rich Roll Podcast - Blake Mycoskie: The More You Give, The More You Live

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

This is the story of a lifelong seeker. It’s about organizing your life around spiritual principles. Breaking the addiction to external validation. And always having the courage to fail. Meet Blake Mycoskie. Quite the change maker, Blake is most famously known as the founder of the wildly successful shoe company TOMS. He also pioneered the ‘One for One’ business model, donating a pair of shoes to a child in need for each pair sold. In turn, he sparked a generation of conscious consumers — and rebranded corporate responsibility as not only cool, but de rigueur. But Blake’s story neither begins nor ends with TOMS.  A natural-born entrepreneur, Blake started 5 other businesses before TOMS. And he’s since moved on from his shoe empire to launch Madefor — a ten-month program that applies key principles of modern neuroscience, psychology, and physiology to make your brain and body better. This is more than the story of an incredible entrepreneur. It’s about navigating the world through a spiritual lens. And the power of commitment to persistent personal growth. It’s less about TOMS and more about the kind of person that imagines TOMS. It’s about intuition. The stewardship required to scale an idea into a global phenomenon — and the ongoing commitment to service that led to Madefor. Blake is a very special human. It was an honor to finally spend some time with him. And a delight to share the experience with you. The visually inclined can watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. For those feeling stagnant or stuck, my hope is that Blake’s testimony — chock-full of sage business and life advice — ignites the inner change you seek most and guides you towards peace. Peace + Plants, Rich

I woke up one day or a series of days and didn't really think that my future was going to be better than my past. And that's a really scary place to be in. I think that leads to a lot of mental health issues and devastating situations for people. And it wasn't that I didn't like my life or my situation or my business or I wasn't proud of what we accomplished with Tom's. But I realized that if we, anyone, and me specific in this situation, if we are looking to external accomplishments, external praise, anything, anything, even your kid's love for your sense of peace and joy, ultimately you will realize that it doesn't work. And that is a really scary place to land. And that's where I landed. The things that were holding me back

was not paying attention to the little things in my life, the internal things. I was so externally focused that I wasn't really taking care of myself. And so I've really committed even more so to journaling and the power of prayer and the power of meditating on and asking for clarity and messages from whatever you believe in. And it has continued to play a huge role in my life. That's Blake Mycoskie,

and this is episode 561 of The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. First up, I want to thank everybody who has ordered Voicing Change, my new book. The early response has been overwhelmingly awesome. Thank you so much. To learn more and pick up your copy, visit richroll.com.

We're selling it exclusively through our site, not on Amazon, and we are shipping globally. And I just might add, it makes for a great gift. While you're on my website, you can also take a moment to check out our Plant Power Meal Planner, thousands of customized plant-based recipes at your fingertips, access to nutrition coaches, and tons more, all for just $1.90 a week at meals.richroll.com. I get tons of emails about nutrition, way too many to answer. And the Plant Power Meal Planner is really our response, our best effort to make healthy plant-based eating simple, delicious, affordable, and most of all, convenient.

So again, meals.richroll.com. Okay, so today's guest is somebody I've been wanting to convene with for many moons. His name is Blake Mycoskie, and he is quite the change maker, the man most famously known as the founder of the wildly successful shoe company, Tom's, which not only was a company that pioneered the one-for-one business model where they donate a pair of their ubiquitous shoes to a person in need, 95 million to date, for every pair purchased, but also really sparked a generation of conscious consumers and ultimately helped redefine how corporate America thinks about and practices conscious capitalism.

But Blake's story neither begins nor ends with Tom's. A seeker and serial entrepreneur, if there ever was one, Blake's latest venture is called Made For. And it's this really cool 10-month program that applies key principles of modern neuroscience, psychology, and physiology to make your brain and your body better. It's basically an at-home spiritual quest guided by the best and the brightest thought researchers out there, including podcast fave and neuroplasticity overlord, Dr. Andrew Huberman. As always, a few more things to mention about Blake and the epic conversation to come, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers

to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you.

Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type,

you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Blake, this one is so good, but it's much more than the story of an incredible career. It's about what it means to be a seeker, the power of bringing a spiritual perspective to not just

business, but to life, to service, and a relentless commitment to persistent personal growth. It's a conversation about Toms, of course, but it's more about the kind of person that imagines Toms. It's about intuition, the stewardship required to scale an idea into a global phenomenon, and the commitment to service that led to Made For. It's also a conversation about breaking the addiction to external validation. It's about navigating the world through a spiritual lens. It's about not being afraid to ask questions and more importantly, the courage to face the answers.

Without a doubt, Blake is indeed a very special human. It was an honor to finally spend some time with him and a delight to share this experience chock full of sage business and life advice with you guys. For those feeling stagnant or stuck, my hope is that Blake's words catalyze change and help you find a little bit more inner peace. And lastly, if this one leaves you intrigued to learn more about Made For, If this one leaves you intrigued to learn more about Made For, Blake has generously gifted all of you guys 20% off the Made For program. Just use the code RITUAL at getmadefor.com.

I'm not an affiliate. I'm just spreading the good news. And with that, I give you Blake Mycoskie. Right on, man. You're here in the flesh. We've been trying to make this happen. I can't remember when we first started going back and forth on email, but it was probably like two years ago or something like that at this point. It's been a really long time coming. I'm glad we could do it face-to-face. I appreciate you coming out here to make this happen. So many cool things to talk about with you. I'm actually like, what's the way in with this guy?

Because there's so many, but maybe one way we can kick it off is to talk about this mutual acquaintance that we have. Yeah, the shaman. Yeah, explain to people who April is. Man, that is a hard bill. April's a shaman. And she has an amazing gift of taking people on vision quest.

I went to the medicine wheel, which is kind of equivalent of America's Stonehenge, with her on top of a mountain in Wyoming for four days about a year and a half ago. And it radically altered many aspects of my life. Yeah. with her on top of a mountain in Wyoming for four days about a year and a half ago. And it radically altered many aspects of my life. And since then I check in with her about every six months and for guidance on different things and her ability to connect and communicate with supernatural aspects of this human experience is something that seems like impossible, but

she's always so accurate. Yeah. I consider myself a pretty rational individual who also has a spiritual bent. Like I'm open, you know, and I've gone and done sessions with her and have never left one of those sessions without feeling completely rocked by her insight, all of which ultimately are proven true in the short term or in the long term. Yeah. Like all our kids have done sessions with her. My wife goes to see her like all the time

and it's amazing. Yeah. You know, and I don't know what it is. I've stopped, you know, trying to answer that question, but for me, it's wild. This is the way I've tried to explain to people who think that anything in this realm is very hard to believe. And that is like I have not legally adopted, but basically adopted Ethiopian son. He's 24 years old. And I met him when he was 14, living in rural Ethiopia.

And I agreed to take him on and have supported him ever since. And he spends holidays with us. And so for all practical purposes, I'm his second father. And he and I always talk about how it's just incredible. Like we don't pause and think about the fact that I can take a picture of myself or what I'm doing that day and push a button, and almost instantaneously, he's in rural Ethiopia

on his iPhone, he gets that picture. So that data travels through air, across continents, across oceans, and then lands on his phone. And so when I think of April's gifts and people who have these gifts, they have a receptor that we don't have that is catching information, that is traveling through.

So that's the way I look at it. It's like a transistor radio. She has a dial that I don't have. She can tap into a certain frequency that escapes mere mortals. So it's not that crazy to think about when you think about how the picture gets to Ethiopia. What is an insight that she provided you with

that rocked you? There was a really amazing experience that happened where I had a vision when on the wheel with her of a person from my past and a, and a message to help this person out and help them out in a pretty significant financial way and doing it anonymously. And I called my business manager who thought I was completely crazy and said, this is what I wanna do.

I don't wanna ever be back to me and just want it to happen. I had this vision. It was something that really important to me based on some things in the past. And I had not seen this person in 10 years and I did it and no link back to me, nothing. But this person I could have run into in the 10 years because we have similar circles that we're in,

but literally for 10 years had not run into this person. And then on a very, very important day, spiritually in my life, months later, when seeing this person would have meant something to me, and I don't want to give away this person's identity, I went to a yoga class at a studio in a city that I've never been at because I was there randomly. And every single mat and the whole place was full except one mat when I got there late. And I went and I sat down the mat and this person was sitting next to me.

And I just looked at him and it was just, I literally, I haven't seen the Truman Show. I looked up and I was ready for the world to part the sky to part and someone say, cut, he did it. Like he passed the test. And I mean, to this day, I get goosebumps telling the story. Well, that's a very specific example

of what I think is a recurring theme of your life. Like this kind of shit is happening to you all the time. Like you, there is something about who you are, your presence, your disposition, your worldview, your energy that does work like this beacon of attraction, not to get too secrety about the whole thing. But I think there is, you know, I am a believer in that. And I think that you're somebody who navigates the world from that kind of perspective of attraction, like this knowingness, like, this is going to work out. Like, oh, I'm supposed to, you know, I really want to connect with that person. I don't need to make it happen. Like, it will just, it's going to transpire because

this is the energy that I'm emitting from my dome, right? And that's played out in your life, like a lot of times. Especially with my journaling practice. That's something that over the years has really kind of really confirmed this belief of that we can manifest the life and the opportunities. Because I've been journaling since I was 15. I do it every single day. It's like the one thing. I actually am more consistent journaling than brushing my teeth or taking a shower. It's something I've always done. And a couple years back, as part of a film project, I had to go back and read a bunch of my journals. And I have like a big fire safe full of hundreds and hundreds of journals. And it was amazing to read what I was writing about at age 15 and 16.

It all came true by age 20. What I was writing about at age 20 all happened in my 30s. And it wasn't like – some of it was almost in the form of prayer. Some people would characterize, but really it was just this is what I want in my life. This is what I want to bring into my life. Really, it was just, this is what I want in my life. This is what I want to bring into my life. This is what I think I can do if given these opportunities to be responsible and to use my life for the highest service.

And every single thing continues to happen. So when you reflect upon that, what do you make of that? What was the... I think it's kind of what you're saying. I think there's something that we can't scientifically prove that we have the capacity as humans to really, if we put enough vision and interest in an outcome happening if our intentions are good, I think,

and if it's going to work for the greater good of humanity, I think a lot of it can happen. And so it's not like it's a wish list, you write it down, it happens tomorrow. But the themes of all of it have happened in a lot of it in great specificity of what was written. And so I've really committed even more so to journaling and the power of prayer and the power of, you know, really meditating on and asking for clarity and messages from whatever you believe in. And it has continued to play a huge role in my life.

Well, there is something powerful about taking a thought that's occurring to you. And when you write it down, it becomes just a little bit more real. And when you revisit that or you repeat it, it becomes a little bit more entrenched and then it finds its way into your kind of daily awareness. And then it gets spoken about. And before you know it,

there's a material representation of that idea, even if just a kernel to build upon. That's how all dreams are created, constructed, right? Absolutely. So when you journal, is it take a certain, is there a form to that? Like, is it, it doesn't sound like it's the artist's way kind of morning pages, It's more intentional.

No, it's definitely not morning pages. And I like that practice. And I have done that at times when I've wanted to kind of create some more creativity flow in my life. But really for me, it's a little bit of reflecting on what's happened in the last day, week, or this experience today and what I learned from it and kind of as if I was writing to a future self that wanted to learn from the experience. And then a lot of it is, is in what am I, what am I wanting to bring into my life? So it is a little bit in the vision manifesting,

and this is what I want to bring into my life with my son this week. I have my son this is what I want, like, you know, to bring into my life with my son this week, you know, I have my son this week. And, you know, he's going to be, I really want to bring into giving him an experience to, you know, go boogie boarding and help him with his fear of the ocean. And this is what I'm planning on. It's almost like a game plan for my life. And, and so for me, I think that also helps me. I think it's like have less stress or anxiety with how I'm going to spend my time because I kind of map it out in the journal and or what experiences I want to have. And then, you know, it also gives me a thing to go back and look at later if I need to, if I was going through a hard time or having a challenging experience and really kind of see how that was affecting me. And oftentimes I find that what felt like

was really challenging then turned out not to be so much. And then that helps me kind of deal with challenging situations in real time with more confidence. Cause it's kind of like that saying this child to pass, you know, it's like, you kind of realize like, you know, one of my favorite quotes of all time is from this poem, If by Rudyard Kipling. And it says, if you can meet triumph and disaster

and treat those two imposters just the same. And I feel like my journal has taught me that over and over again. It's like nothing's as good as it was when I was writing it down and nothing is as challenging as it was when I was writing it down and nothing is as challenging as it was when I was writing it down. Right, and academically or intellectually,

we know that to be true, but when it gets tested in the real world, right? When you're flying high and like selling your company or you're at your low point, it's pretty hard to put those into motion. Yeah, totally. There's a lot of talk these days about practices like journaling and mindfulness and meditation, all these self-care practices that have really become mainstream in a way that they never have been before.

So what was it about you at 15 in 1989 or 90 or whenever it was when you began this process? I mean, there wasn't a lot of talk about it then. Like what was going on with the 15-year-old Blake that thought like, I'm gonna start journaling? Yeah, I think, I don't really know because neither of my parents were journalers. So I don't really got, I think most of the things that I did in my life

at an early age resulted, I read a lot. And I'm sure I read a book of someone, you could have been through school or whatever, that was successful, that talked about journaling being an important part of their process. For me also, I was a really competitive tennis player. And part of my early journaling was really from kind of a mental practice of like really journaling about my practices or matches that I won or lost or why I think I lost them. And so it was a little bit more

of an athletic bent originally. When I read those journals, a lot of it is around my tennis and my desire to win and my frustration and matches that I lost and these types of things. But I really don't know what was the catalyst. I just know that it's something that I've always done. Yeah.

One of the things that I related to a lot about you growing up was your passion for tennis. I was a swimmer. I mean, I'm older than you, but the story is somewhat similar in that we both had this passion for this sport. We weren't the most talented, but we both figured out that we could bridge that talent deficit gap by working harder than the

other guy to get to that place that we wanted to get to and how that, you know, informed you as an entrepreneur and perhaps continues to inform you today. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think there's a real blessing, even though it didn't feel like it when I was the last man on the team every year. I think there was a blessing in having to, the only way to have any level of success was just to outwork everyone. You know, I think it's why my favorite movie

of all time is Rudy. You know, like I was so connected with that character of wanting to be on the Notre Dame football team so bad that he would do anything. Cause that was really the mentality that I had being a tennis player, which has been probably the greatest gift as an entrepreneur, because being an entrepreneur is also an often an individual sport. And, and you have to, you know, work extremely hard. It can be extremely lonely and there's no certainty

of the results, same with tennis or swimming for you. So I think a lot of what I learned and I think was my destiny was to learn that through tennis so that it could be applied to my entrepreneurial career. And I think that was incredible preparation for it. Well, you strike me as somebody who, you know, has always followed his curiosity, who's unafraid to fail, who, you know, kind of looks at the world with wide eyes

in a very optimistic way and says, there's a thing like I could do that, right? Most kids, you know, are not like that, right? Most kids are not like that or they don't filter the world that way. So I'm curious about how that was instilled in you. Do you think that was hardwired into you just from birth? Did that come from your parents? I mean, your dad was a doctor, your mom, cookbook author,

like big time cookbook. She sold like millions of copies of this no butter cookbook or whatever. You know, who was the mentor in the house that was, you know, instilling that in you? Well, I think, you know, have you spent any time with the Enneagram? Are you familiar with that? Okay. So I went pretty deep in the Enneagram about two years ago. And I'm a seven, the enthusiast.

And I feel like- Shocker. Yeah, I know. It's so, I mean, that's what's so amazing about Enneagram. It's like so dead on and so convicting when you think of the areas in my life that challenge me the most and how it's so just like prescriptive and reading some of the great work about the Enneagram.

But I bring it up because it really has convinced me that there's nine types that we really do arrive here with an operating system. And if we wanna get really spiritual about it, like maybe we even choose that operating system and maybe we come multiple times and you get to come nine times and try all the operating systems.

I don't know. But I feel like I was hardwired as a seven since the beginning. And then I think then it's up to our parents to provide the software. So if the hardware was my personality type that I do believe is hardwired in, I don't think that came from my parents because my brother and sister have totally different hardware. But the software is what our parents teach us, our friends, our, you know, places where you grow up.

And that is what kind of creates the uniqueness of each human. So that's the way that I kind of look at nature versus nurture is, you know, hardware we come in with and software we get. And hopefully we get to continue to update our software as we go. Right. Well, your hustle game was right out of the gate, right? Like there was no, you know, putting a clamp down on that, right? Like from teaching tennis lessons in the neighborhood

to the laundry delivery service company that you created in college. Like it's just been one successive business adventure after the other. I mean, I think a lot of people look at you and they think of Tom's obviously your biggest success, but that was the product of, you know, four or five businesses that preceded it. Sure.

And, you know, and what I'm working on now made for, like it's totally a accumulation of everything I learned from Tom's plus the other businesses. So one thing that I think is interesting about my entrepreneurial life, and I say this because I've read so many books of entrepreneurs. So I didn't graduate from college, but I literally don't know another human that's read more biographies of entrepreneurs than I have. Like I just devoured them in my 20s because that was the way I learned. And so most entrepreneurs, especially if they've started multiple businesses, there's usually a pretty clear link between the businesses. You know, you look at my career, I was in the laundry business,

the outdoor advertising business, the online driver's education business, the television network business, you know, the shoe advertising business, the online driver's education business, the television network business, the shoe philanthropy business, and now in the space with MadeFor to help people live their best lives and reach the highest state of well-being. And so there's really no direct links between them. But what there is, and I've really spent time thinking about this, is there is a cumulative of like I learned this, so this allowed me to apply it to this. And I learned this and it made me apply it to this.

And so now definitely with having this mission of trying to help people with their mental health and their personal wellbeing is a derivative of what I saw with Tom's and what I experienced in that, a lot of people in developing countries, while they have very little material wealth, they have a lot better mental health than we have here in the United States. And so what are we missing that people in Uganda or Ethiopia or Venezuela,

you know, in very rural areas are getting so right. And that's what was kind of the question that led to really going down this path and working with scientists and really trying to understand that, which led to the Made For Company. So all my businesses, I think, even though they're not related per se, they all have like this kind of arc of curiosity and personal experience. Right. I don't want to go through Siri, Adam, like all your businesses. I think everybody should listen to

your episode of How I Built This with Guy Raz. He does a great job of taking you through all these iterations of things that you've done. I'm more interested, and not that that's not, it's super fascinating, and perhaps we can recount some aspects of the Tom story, but I'm interested in that inflection point when you're at the peak of your powers with Tom's and you have this kind of emotional realization that all these things that you've done in some part to be a happy person, right? Like you're doing it of service, you're running a business,

you're employing all these people, but it's also very much an aspect of, you know, these cultural drivers, these messages that we've been told our whole life. Like if you wanna be happy, well, you'd be financially successful and you serve others and all these things. And you kind of met your maker with that a little bit in terms of, you know,

really taking stock and inventory in an honest way with how you were feeling about yourself. So let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, it's looking back on it now, it's such a blessing, even though it felt so challenging at the time, because I'm an achiever and I set my goals and write in my journal and say,

this is what I wanna accomplish. And when you accomplish it, you expect to get a certain feeling. And I think most people in their life spend most of their life having these external goals and external accomplishments or family situations or whatnot that we have been told by society is the will result in happiness.

And maybe because I started early we have been told by society is the, will result in happiness. And maybe because I started early in my entrepreneurial life and I grew up fast, I achieved pretty much everything that I set out to achieve before I was 40. And that to everyone and myself at the time thought like a huge blessing. But what I found was, is that I woke up one day or a series of days

and didn't really think that my future was gonna be better than my past. And that's a really scary place to be in. I think that leads to a lot of mental health issues and devastating situations for people. And it wasn't that I didn't like my life or my situation or my business or I wasn't proud of what we accomplished at Tom's. But I realized that if we, anyone, and me specific in this situation, if we are looking to external accomplishments, external praise, anything, anything,

even your kid's love for your sense of peace and joy, ultimately you will realize that it doesn't work. And that is a really scary place to land. And that's where I landed. I had accomplished everything. I'd been on the covers of every magazine. I'd helped, you know, at that point, 80 million children get shoes. I'd made hundreds of millions of dollars.

I mean, I literally had kids. I had everything that I possibly could have been told was the key to not just a happy life, but actually a meaningful life. was the key to not just a happy life, but actually a meaningful life. Like I, you know, it wasn't like I, you know, just chased after like these hedonistic pleasures. And it wasn't just a company that was profit above everything else. Like there's such a built-in massive service aspect

of what you were doing, which you would think would buffer you against that. But actually I think it in some way made it worse. Well, the guilt and the shame of feeling that way. That, but would think, but actually, I think it, in some way, it made it worse. Well, the guilt and the shame, right, of feeling that way. That, but also, there was nowhere to go. So, if you think about it, if you had a traditional businessman or woman, and they built a huge company, made a bunch of money, had all this, and they realized, eh, it's really not what it's cracked up to be. Now, I can be a philanthropist.

And so, they can spend the next 20 years doing that. But I'd already done that. Right. And so they can spend the next 20 years doing that. But I'd already done that. And I realized it wasn't any better than, you know. And so I reached a point where, and there's this amazing teacher who I love named Sadguru. I don't know if you know Sadguru. Yeah, I do. But we got to spend some time together. We have a very shared passion for golf. And we've golfed together and he's stayed at my house in Wyoming. And he said that in the yoga sutras,

there's this one book and I forget which one it is, but the very first line is, and now yoga. And what that meant to him as he explained, because he knows quite a bit about my life story is that moment was when my yoga really started. It was, I had to accomplish all those things. I had to do all of that in my life to realize that the joy and the peace and the sense of connection to the great mystery that I've been searching for would never be found in those external things.

And that's when I could start my yoga practice. Yeah, to reframe it as an opportunity, but ultimately to have to basically experience all of that on the grandest level in order to understand fully that it isn't the solution, right? Because anybody who's listening or watching, myself included, there's a little bit of that, but there's also like, yeah, maybe he says that, but that's not going to be the way it is for me, right? Sure. And it's like, it doesn't matter how many successful people sit across from me and tell me their version of that exact same story.

It always holds true, right? And yet it's so difficult to wrap the human mind around that. to wrap the human mind around that. Like, how could that possibly be true? Because it's so contrary to everything that we've been hardwired to believe since as long as we can remember. Totally. I mean, I actually had a very prophetic conversation

where I was told this was gonna happen and it was by Ted Turner. So I looked up to Ted Turner a lot as an entrepreneur. As I said, I read all every biography and there's a few great ones on Ted Turner. And Ted Turner had some similarities with me. He started an outdoor advertising company before starting CNN, started a network. I lived on a sailboat for six years.

Ted Turner was a huge sailor, won America's Cup. Started a cable TV channel. Started CNN. Started a cable TV channel. Started CNN. So I was asked to interview Ted Turner maybe seven or eight years ago at the UN. And I got to spend the morning with Ted Turner. He was a real hero to me.

So this was a really special experience. And so I spent just months preparing for this interview and read every book again and was really excited to do this interview with Ted. But right before we went on stage, we're having this conversation. And Ted said to me, he said, you know, we're talking about life. And he said, you know, in life and in business, especially in business, you know, it's like this ladder. And it's not like the corporate ladder like you're about, but it's like this ladder of like believing that if you climb up this ladder, that at the top, there's something magical and something that's going to give you everything that you've ever wanted. And as you start to climb the ladder,

you see this beautiful bag on the top of the ladder. And you can only think what's in the bag when you get to the top. And he said, I spent so much of my life climbing that ladder to get a peek into that bag. And he says, and I a peak into that bag. And he says, and I've seen inside the bag. And of course, at this age, I was like, maybe,

I don't know, I was 38, 40 years old. I said, what's in the bag? He goes, I'll tell you what's in the bag. The bag is empty. And even though I've told you, you still need to climb the ladder and look for yourself. He knows well enough to know that just him telling you that ain't gonna do it. And I'll never forget that conversation with Ted.

I mean, it was one of the most beautiful life, like when we watched the movie of our lives, it will definitely be in the highlight reel of my life because he told me, he said, he saw me, he saw himself probably in me and saw exactly the path I was on and wanted to tell me, but also wanted to tell me that I still had to go down the path. So was there a specific moment where it dawned upon you or was it a kind of a slow realization? Slow realization.

And did you pick up the phone and call Ted and tell him I've arrived? I've arrived. And the bag is indeed not full. It's not full. No, it was really more of a slow process. And I think that in a lot of life transformations, I think happens kind of over time.

I think things just start losing their luster. You start losing a little bit excitement or energy around things. You start realizing that start losing a little bit of excitement or energy around things. You start realizing that something's a little bit more shallow than you realized before. And over the cumulative effect, you start just to energetically wake up and not have that same passion and enthusiasm and optimism that you built your life around. And that can be a pretty scary place. So, yeah,

it was over time, over about two year period of time for me. Well, the thing that you have though, that I think separates you from other people who've been in that place is this seeker disposition. Like you're, you know, from reading, you know, business entrepreneurial and self-help books as a young person, like you strike me as somebody who's always looking to grow all the time, right? Spiritually, emotionally, mentally, like there's a firm commitment there, right? No matter what, like you're always exploring these different and new modalities.

And I have to suspect that that's been a saving grace, like to keep you on this, you on this journey of self-improvement no matter what. Because it's rare, the typical arc for somebody like yourself, like setting aside the one-for-one model of Tom's would be make all your bank. Yeah, you have this existential crisis,

but you ultimately never really reckon with it or grapple with it. You just end up playing a bunch of golf and giving a bunch of money away. Yeah. I mean, that's really, and there's no judgment in that. And oftentimes people might have their external goals, whether they're financial or otherwise met, you know, later in life in their sixties or seventies, and then they can kind of coast on the golf course or wherever their hobby of choice is into old age and enjoy being grandparents and all these other things that are out there that satisfy them. But when it happens to you at age 40, you're in a different position. And so I think I am very

grateful that I have this seeker disposition that I'm insanely curious. And I really believe that you can kind of work through any situation that you're in. And so it really led me to go down the path of, okay, there are a lot of people in the world that are thriving. And what are they doing that I'm not doing because i did everything that society told me to do i did everything that my parents told me to do like i think i've really got an a plus on on all these things and i feel like this but not everyone feels like this and there's some people that have gone through what i've gone through and are thriving and there's some people that haven't had to reach any of those external accomplishments

and they're thriving. So who are these people and what are they doing that I'm not doing? And that led me down, working with many different scientists that study human behavior, top universities in the country. It led me to seeking out people like Sadhguru

and other spiritual teachers like Rob Bell. Like, I mean, it really led me to seeking out people like Sadhguru and other spiritual teachers like Rob Bell. Like, I mean, it really led me down a path of really talking to the widest net of people from scientists to shamans to going down to South America and having plant medicine journeys. I mean, I was willing to try anything, but what I found and it's no, But what I found, and it's no, I think it's no surprise that it ultimately led to something that then led to another entrepreneurial venture.

Of course. But it did because what happened, I realized, was the things that were holding me back was not paying attention to the little things in my life, the internal things. I was so externally focused that I wasn't really taking care of myself, not just in some of the traditional self-care ways that we kind of spoke about in the beginning, but some very specific practices that there have been kind of double placebo studies at universities show have a benefit on how people's energy levels are, how their sleep is, or their kind of mental outlook of the future being better than the past.

And so what I found was, even though I tried so many different things and met with so many different people, the, the, what made the biggest difference was actually working on the simplest things and just like really dialing in some simple things like the power of my breath or spending time in nature and why that's important for my brain or how your mindset can change through neuroplasticity. And those little simple things that I worked on is what had the biggest effect. And over time is that really started to kind of give me

and ground me in feeling like I was more in control with how I woke up and felt every day. That's what led to, and I think it's where my, the disposition of that had caused me to start Tom's like, okay, how can I help as many people learn this too? Because there are a lot of people, I mean, out there suffering. I mean, you can read any headline in the news now

and you see that we have more people on antidepressants than ever in the history of America. More people taking sleep aids just to get a night's sleep. I mean, we are as a society suffering and having experienced some of that suffering really motivated me to wanna do something to help people not have that suffering if it's not necessary.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, we're not in a great place with mental health, physical health across the board. Here we are the day after the election, anxiety rates are like off the charts at historic levels, of course. And I want to get into all these modalities, but I think a thought that I had was beneath the success and the admitted drive for external validation that's been a hallmark of you in the past, there has to still be this undercurrent of humility in order to be that seeker because you're not going to seek out Rob Bell or Satguru. You're not gonna be on the path to, sitting at the feet of wise people

to hear what they have to say, unless you enter that equation from a place of humility, this place of like, I have more to learn. Like these people seem to know something that I don't, like allow myself to be open to what they have to say. Yeah, I think maybe that's, maybe comes back from being an athlete and always like having so much respect for your coaches,

and like really at an early age seeing that, no matter what, if you're the best player in the world, and when I was growing up, it was Andre Agassi, he still had coach, and coaches, I've had a life coach for 14 years. And it's weird that most people don't, like we understand that, like how are you gonna be a great athlete

if you don't have a coach? But we don't think of that in any other context of life. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't think therapists and life coaches get near the respect or are held up with enough importance in our society because I think being a human, we need coaches. And they take many different forms

and everyone can choose their own based on their spiritual beliefs or their life situations. But for me, I've always been oriented and it's part of the seeker mentality of like, who knows whose experiences? Who knows this? Who could coach me on this,

who could give me a perspective I don't have. And I'm really grateful that I've had that mentality. And I think it does, the word humility is one that I think is always an interesting one because people who say they're humble, that's like an oxymoron, right? If you're saying it, you're performing on some level and that's coming from a place of ego.

Yeah, so I think I always, but I do think it's fair in this situation to say that, at least from a disposition is I approach my challenges with humility based on the fact that I know there is someone who has studied this situation or been in this situation and can provide some real value. Right. And I'm really grateful for all the people

that have been mentors and coaches and therapists and people who've helped me on this journey because being human is not easy. Certainly it's not. One of the modalities that I know you're passionate about, and I know you talked with Tim Ferriss about this recently, is the Hoffman process. And I do wanna get into this a little bit.

Do you know about it? I know about it, I've never done it myself. Do you know Neil Strauss? So Neil's constantly telling me I have to do the Hoffman process. And I know that I would glean so much, but he's like, when are you gonna go? When are you gonna go?

April went after our medicine. I was like, look, you gave a gift to me. I was like, I'm going to give the gift to Hoffman to you, and she went. So if the shaman's going, clearly everyone can- There's something. There's some gold there. Yeah. No, I say to people, it's like, I think it's like, if we got a hard, going back to the analogy of we come in with an operating system, we get software. Like, I think Hoffman is like getting all the bugs out of your software. Like, every software program is going to have glitches and bugs. And we all have parents and we all have life experiences and we all have our own versions of traumas and things that, you know, really create patterns in our lives. And Hoffman is an unbelievable experience. I use the word

experience, they say process, but it really is an experiential, you know, seven days where you really start to understand why the heck you are the way you are. And no judgment, good or bad, but knowing why and which of your patterns and which of your ways of being or responses that are so automatic at this stage and hardwired into your brain, which of them are serving you and which of them aren't. And then they have incredible ways to rewire yourself to let go of the things that aren't serving you.

My favorite Hoffman story is, and I don't think I've shared this with, is that I lost 20 pounds after Hoffman. Now I wasn't like heavily overweight. I was like, I'm like 165 now, I was probably like 185. And that was kind of a normal weight. And I literally was carrying 20 pounds of stress, 20 pounds of things that I had never worked through

from my childhood. And so Hoffman would never say that they- It's not a weight loss thing. It's not a weight loss thing. But by having your hormones dysregulated, it's keeping you heavier than you normally would be. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the science behind that, but it's like, it's just,

there's the correlations is exactly to that timetable. And I bring that up just because it's like, Hoffman has kind of a magical effect on pretty much everyone I know that's ever gone. And people do become almost evangelical about it that have gone, like we've seen with Neil, because it's just so liberating. I mean, it's just like you want every human to be able to live with this awareness and this freedom that you get through understanding how you got to where you are. But a lot of it is, correct me if I'm wrong,

about like early imprinting, like in your youth, right? And the kind of messages that you're receiving as a young person from your parents and how those really become part of that. It's somewhere in between software and hardware, really, right? Because it becomes so entrenched in you that it really is your hardware at some point.

At some point, yeah. I mean, because I would say the thing is, they talk about this thing called the negative love syndrome. And so basically they say as children from like age, you know, basically up until age 12 is, you know, you, all you need to survive and all you want is love or attention from your parents. And so everything that you do or learn to do is either doing something that's mirroring your parents' behaviors and patterns to get their love,

or is the exact opposite of your parents to get their attention. And so you can literally trace back all of, and they help you understand these patterns that are basically becoming your software. And you can trace back to which parent or caretaker, if you had a grandmother or someone that was really involved, and you can actually trace back to them

either doing the same thing or the exact opposite thing. And it's fascinating because then once you start to see your personality and your life experience as a collection of these patterns, then you realize how unconscious you are and how you're living your life. And that can be frightening but also incredibly enlightening to people because then you have the choice to choose, do you want to continue to live in this unconscious way and just responding to things based on what you patterned as a kid? Or do you want to use these practices to disrupt those patterns and then choose a different path?

And yeah, it's- So in your case, so what would be an example of an epiphany that you've had as a result of undergoing this? I mean, one of the ones that's the most silly and kind of embarrassing, which I think is why I like to share it, is my mom, I was the first child, and I was also the first grandchild. And my mom was a housewife before she wrote her cookbooks. And when I came around, I was her pride and joy.

I mean, I was like literally the center of attention, like no one's been the center of attention because I was the first grandkid. I was the first child. I was, I mean, I was. And so my mom's whole sense of self for a number of years really revolved around this baby and then this young kid. And I felt that in a big way. And it continued on even once I had brothers and sisters. And so my earliest

experiences with women, specifically, and my mom was, I am feel really good when I'm the center of attention. And so it's, it's you start looking at some of my life choices and they've all been to get more attention. And I mean, even some of the really pure philanthropic stuff is like, well, that gets more positive attention. And so- It's amazing you didn't become an actor, but you did do the reality TV thing. So I guess in certain respects you did. In some ways, right? But this is the fascinating thing is, okay, it's one thing to say, okay, I understand where my deep need and comfort for attention is. But where is that holding me back?

Where is that causing me to not feel authentic in my life and then creating some negative emotions in my life? negative emotions in my life. And so it wasn't like looking back at like, oh, some of the career choices, those are so obvious now if I'm someone who is starving for attention all the time. But then it was something like really simple. And this is why I just, in a meditation at Hoffman, I realized I love to go snowboarding. And I realized that on ski lifts, you know, you have three or four people in the lift, you have 15 minutes on the lift, that my need for attention was so great. This is embarrassing, but it's funny, is that I would always manipulate the conversation on a ski lift to ultimately, so someone had to ask me what I did for a living. So I could say I started Tom's, so they could tell me how great I was. Every ski lift was the same

damn conversation. It was so embarrassing to realize that my little boy in me still needed the attention so much, no matter how much success I've had. It doesn't matter how many magazine covers. I still have to get the woman from Nebraska to say, so what do you do to be in Jackson Hole?

Oh, I, you know. Once I realized that, it was so liberating because I stopped doing it. I was like, I don't need it. It's not serving me anymore. This is like limiting me from really learning about this person that could be like the most fascinating person in the world or have a great message for me because I'm so focused on needing my own attention. And it's created so much more real intimacy in meeting with strangers. It's created more comfort at parties. Like I actually play a game with myself now where I try like in a new environment, see if I can get through the entire night with no one knowing anything about my professional life.

You know, they learn things about me, about my kids. They learn things about my hobbies. But it really was. I mean, that's a long drawn out way to say one thing I learned, but that's the level of kind of the root of things you get to. And then when you realize them and you kind of can laugh at them and look at them without any judgment,

which is what Hoffman really allows you to do, then you can be free from them. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the most powerful aspect of the story you just told. Like as funny as it is, the way in which you can kind of own it completely without that pang of shame or embarrassment, there is a freedom in that.

And I think that that's totally related to like the weight loss thing. You're shedding that burden on yourself. So you're able to carry yourself in a lighter way, a more clear eyed way where you can be present with people and not be in that like need, neediness, you know, kind of dynamic that basically is completely, you know, perverse and not authentic to who you truly are, like that inner child within. That's right. When you walked up today, your t-shirt for those who can't see you says truth on it.

And it was so like divine that you were in that t-shirt because it is so much, I think part of this journey for me has been to look at myself and look at everything with no judgment so that I can live not just the most truthful life,

but like truth to myself. And that's when I feel like we really get this sense of just lightness. When there is no judgment. Everything happens for a reason, and you make decisions, good or bad, judged by society. But I don't believe that any of it has come from a bad place. But I think when you do this inner work and things like Hoffman, you start to put the pieces together.

And then you think, oh, I could beat myself up for being like always having to be the center of attention and what a horrible characteristic that is and no one wants to be around someone like that. Or I can be like, no, I'm just a little boy who that's all they knew growing up. And so when they got out to be a big boy, they just had to keep playing the same role, but I don't have to do that anymore.

Yeah. It's also not about vilifying your parents. Totally not. You know what I mean? No, my mom was amazing. Right. But that's been like a thing with me. I have fear of engaging with that process because I don't want to cast dispersions on my parents. But ultimately that blinds me from the relief that I could receive by working through these things, right? I mean, I'm a product of 12-step,

like I've been sober a long time. So my entry point to any kind of tools whatsoever is the process of like, you know, performing the inventory, which reveals, you know, it's similar in that it reveals these character traits that you have that, you know, tend to recur in your life and lead you down dark pathways. And there's a self-awareness that comes with that.

And then you get into the amends process, but there's so much work that still remains to be done. You know, I'll never forget sitting across from, I had Gabor Mate on the podcast and he starts, you know, I knew he would do this and I allowed him to do it, but for him to like kind of flip it and just start, he's starting asking me questions about my parents. And it's like, you know, to him, it's crystal clear, like why I'm behaving the way I'm behaving, you know? And it's like, I'm behaving the way I'm behaving, you know? And it's like, there's so much to learn

and to be gained by not being afraid of, you know, availing yourself of all these interesting modalities. So I think, you know, at some point I will do the Hoffman process. And it's not like you're not gonna reveal what actually happens. It's like you go to this place

and you undergo this experience that is very tactile. It's not about reading a book or like- Or that's experiential. That's experiential. It's a fun experience. I mean, like there are challenging times, but there are some really fun times too that us as adults don't get the opportunity to engage in

and modalities and ways that you do that. And so it's very, I always say it's very experiential. And I do think there are many of my friends who have hesitated. Most of them have all gone now because I'm quite persuasive in that regard. But some of them were the ones that had great relationships with their parents. Like, oh, I don't want to go and vilify my parents. I'm like, look, I had an amazing childhood. I'm still incredibly close to my parents. And like, everything that I learned that I learned from them of patterns that I don't want to keep anymore, many of them came from just, you know, the way that they loved me, there was nothing wrong with

it. It just has, there's a cause and effect for every way. Right. And I think what I've also found it to be incredibly helpful, and I go back to probably more than ever, is how I parent my kids. Because I'm realizing no matter how good or how involved or how I'm trying to do, there are responses that I'm creating, even if they're unintended. And I'm never going to do it perfect. And I already have a spot for all my kids at age 21 to go to Hoffman, already prepaid. So, you know, and I probably, the week after they're Hoffmans, I'll learn more about myself than I've ever learned. But yeah, like it's a really great tool to have that awareness of how there are unintended consequences, even for the best motivations. Right.

Well, let's talk about made for. Sure. So you have this occurrence in your life where you're feeling depressed and not sure what the next thing is. You're grappling with meaning in your life where you're feeling depressed and not sure what the next thing is, you're grappling with, you know, meaning in your life, how does that ultimately translate into this new venture? Well, it's fun because, you know, I, as I've said, and when we started our conversation talking about a shaman, so I think this is like the perfect segue into how this happened. You know, my first response to dealing with my depression

and kind of, you know, lack of positive outlook for the first time in my life, which was, you know, really intense for me because I'm such a positive person, was to go the super spiritual, super supernatural way. So it was shamans,

it was plant medicine journeys. It was, you know, Vipassana meditation retreats. I mean, super supernatural ways. So it was shamans, it was plant medicine journeys. It was Vipassana meditation retreats. I mean, it was that. And there was a lot of insights and stuff that I gained from all of that experiences. But I met a guy who's now my business partner at Made For. His name is Pat Dossett. And we met through mutual friends

and he was a navy seal for nine years and he uh thinks probably like you would stereotypically think navy seals think he's very methodical science only no foo-foo no fads no bullshit i mean this guy is like it's a shaman free zone with this guy this guy you're an user shaman in the room with that. And I met him and we were on a surf trip together. And we're talking about kind of what he's going through, what he's doing, and what his personal interests are. And he shared that, you know, I asked this question to him and several others, because I was also thinking in this way. I was like, if you guys didn't have to work for money and you could do anything you wanted to do with your life, what would you do? Like anything. And Pat gave an answer that was

very much in line with kind of what I was seeking. And that is, you know, I would help everyday people live their best lives by getting access to the information and the science that very few people get except Navy SEALs and top performers. And I thought, wow, that's amazing. Like I, that's kind of, you know, one of the, that's kind of something I would love to understand as well. And so over a series of surf sessions and lunches on the boat, we talked about that there is an incredible growing body

of knowledge in the scientific community of, you know of practices and habits that everyday people could partake in and it would make a real difference in their lives. And Pat was very interested in taking an approach that was very different than mine was really interviewing scientists and getting them to share what they've learned and

what they've been able to prove in terms of human behavior. And so I said, I think that sounds great. So I was like, Pat, like, Pat was working for Google at the time. I was like, if you, you know, would be open to leaving Google and pursuing this full time, I would fund it almost like a research project and some of it for my own benefit because of the place that I was in. And we agreed to start working on it as a project. That's another thing. A lot of businesses, I mean, Tom's wasn't a business. It was a project for a while. And so, Made For was a project. And shortly into Pat starting to kind of kick the tires about, okay, what are some of the practices that are most prevalent in high performers and people who are living in a high state of well-being, he met Andrew Huberman,

who you just had on the show. And he met Andrew at Hoffman. Oh, he did? Yes, he all comes back to Hoffman. That's unbelievable. I didn't know that part. Yes, yes. That's crazy. So Pat went to Hoffman after I talked so great about it. And then if you've been to Hoffman, you can go back on the graduation night for any class. And we had a friend graduating.

And so Pat went to support him, and Andrew was graduating, and they sat next to each other at dinner. Wow. So that's how that—amazing. And so Andrew has a lab at Stanford, and he's a neuroscientist for people who didn't hear that podcast that you had him on. And Pat started telling Andrew about what we're doing and Andrew just lit up. Andrew's like, this is exactly what we need. Like we, us scientists get so frustrated that we spend all of our lives, you know, proving things that could really benefit humanity, but we don't have a delivery mechanism that gets out there unless we write a book or write a paper or this or that. And Pat and I were much more interested in teaching people in a experiential way versus writing a book or hosting a podcast or whatever we could do at that

point. And so Andrew signed on to join us and he said, okay, let's identify, originally we were going for 12, going back to 12 steps or 12 habits or 12 months of the year. We're looking for 12 things that could transform someone's life. 12 either habits or daily practices that have been proven by the scientific community to make a demonstrative difference.

And working with Andrew and him introducing us to other scientists and specialties, everything from sleeping to nutrition to breath techniques, we found that we could only find 10 things. So we ultimately create a program. It's called Made For. That is a 10-month program where each month we send you a kit. And in that kit comes in the mail, you can have everything you need to learn the new habit or practice for 30 days. And the kind of thinking behind teaching people this way

versus using a digital app or a website or any other modality was what we recognized was in this time period in our life, we are so digitally distracted. We have so much information. It's not that we don't have the information, but we find it very hard to carve out the space to really experience deep learning. And in order for deep learning to happen, you need to have something you do consistently without distraction. And so the Made For program is completely analog. There's no digital app or application. And it requires a little bit of effort,

10, 15 minutes a day for 30 days to learn or to experience this habit or practice that can make a difference in your life. And so we have a different scientist and different kind of university or lab partnered with each of the months. and different kind of university or lab partnered with each of the months. And it was basically a derivative of the 10 things

that I found made the biggest difference for me. Yeah, I love that it's analog. Not that there aren't powerful digital tools that are available to people, but when you kind of canvas that space, I mean, we're in the age of like people trying to connect with their wellness in a meaningful way. And there are a lot of very, you know,

well-developed helpful apps out there, but they tend to pick a lane. Like this is mindfulness, this is meditation, this is, you know, sleep, this is a fitness tracker, but there isn't anything that looks at this holistically and even more specifically from the perspective of how you actually change a habit. Right, like if you can be on all these apps,

but if you're lacking tools for how to actually make a habit stick, you're not gonna reap the benefits of any of it, right? And so I think it's really smart and interesting that you would go the neuroplasticity route and really analyze like, how do you actually get somebody to adopt a new habit with staying power?

And that comes through tiny actions taken consistently, you know, that have staying power only through repetition, right? And breaking things down into their smallest little pieces seems to be the consensus about how we do this. You're either an all in person, you know, I'm kind of that way, but most people are not that way, you know? So if you read, you know, Charles Duhigg's work or,

or James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, like they all kind of say the same thing, which is like, you got to start with these tiny little things. And the problem is it's not sexy. It's not like I'm going to run an ultra marathon in a week. You know, it's, it's really like I'm gonna run an ultra marathon in a week. You know, it's really like these tiny little things that no one gives a shit about and don't look good on Instagram.

Totally. And that's why as a business, it can be quite challenging because we, and especially with having a business partner like Pat, who's like no bullshit, like all of our marketing and all of our explanations of what we're gonna help you with sounds really boring. Because it's like we're –

You're going to drink water every two hours or something like that. Yeah, like I mean we're going to talk about hydration. But the interesting thing about the water is the first step in getting people to really make a sustained change is convincing them that they're the type of person that can make a sustained change. Even if they have the desire, they're all the mindset that most of us have, especially if we're adults, you know, age over 25 years old, is I am the way that I am. And I've tried everything or, you know, this doesn't stick.

And so we actually start with hydration because, A, it's one of the most important aspects of how our bodies operate. And there's an incredible amount of science behind the negative effects of even a small amount of dehydration, which a huge amount of Americans are experiencing every day. So we start with something that we know is going to have a physiological impact almost immediately unless you already have an incredible hydration practice, which most people don't, even if they think they do. And the second thing is it's so simple. Like we have a very special water bottle that you get in your kit. It keeps track of how much water you drink throughout the day. It has a tactile kind of reward system with these like prayer beads that you move every time you finish a bottle. So you get that dopamine hit every time you do it. You're like gamifying a little bit.

Gamifying a little bit, yeah. And so, but what the beautiful thing about that is, is it's something so simple, but almost everyone immediately experiences two things. One, they experience the physiological benefit of being more hydrated. But the more important thing they experience is, I actually stuck to something for 30 days. I accomplished something. It was simple. It was water. But I can't wait to see what month two is because I have positive momentum and my mindset is now not one of a fixed mindset, but of a growth mindset. And Carol Dweck wrote a great book about that. Yeah. So the story changes from you don't understand, like, I don't do that kind of stuff. I'm not the kind of person that does these things. I don't like that. To a value shift where by undergoing, you know,

the first of 10 of these, you start to tweak the brain into believing like, I'm the kind of person who makes positive changes in my life. And the cascading like downstream impact of that is the most powerful thing of all. It's less about the water. Totally. And it's more about like that shift in self-awareness and that change in the story you tell yourself about who you are and what you're capable of. For people who've seen the movie, Karate Kid,

this is my favorite analogy is, you know, when Mr. Miyagi is teaching, Ralph, the karate chop, he has him washing his cars. Wax on, wax off. Wax on, wax off. And Ralph is so frustrated. He's like, this is boring. I don't understand why I'm doing this. And then there's that great moment in the movie when he immediately sees that the wax on

is the great blocking of the karate chop. And that is a lot of what we have found with these practices of made forest. These are basic, simple things that we're gonna have someone do. And the reason they're basic and simple is because they're easy to stick to. So we set you up for success

by not asking you to do Herculane things each month. They're things that anyone can do regardless of the time that they have available. We are very busy. And so the nice thing about these are is you understand because in the kit also comes a 15, 20 minute read on the science behind why you're doing what you're doing. So you understand where you're going and what the benefits will be by accomplishing the challenge that month. But some of them are a little bit like the waxing on wax off off, where you're like,

oh, I'm drinking water, I'm drinking water, and then at the end, by some prompts that we give you, we realize, oh no, what I really was doing was changing the neuroplasticity in my mind to tell myself that I can stick to something every day. And so when the next challenge comes, I'm gonna be more likely to accomplish it, even if it seems a little harder in the beginning,

because I've built this change in my growth mindset. And so ultimately, the biggest reward of starting Made For for me, and I think Pat would probably say the same and Andrew would be is, we get the most amazing testimonials from people that have had transformations that have nothing to do with our program. Like we don't have, I mean, like, you know, like, that is the thing that's so cool is that people say, I've always wanted to do this in my life and now I just did it. Or I had this really challenging relationship with my mother-in-law that I've been avoiding for 20 years and I fixed it. Or, and people have lost weight and weight loss isn't part of our program. It's, you know, it's amazing. What I see is what has happened is

when people do these other things and, you know, they optimize their sleep through the program or, you know, they heal relationships or have a gratitude practice, all these things that we've all kind of heard of. But when they do them in this systematic way, what they ultimately do is change their mindset. And whatever they do with changing their mindset just always astonishes me because I'm like, we never thought about that when we were designing this program. And that's what's been the most rewarding is we had these great Zoom calls with members and we just chat and hear what they're going through. And it reminds me of the early days of Tom's being on the ground giving shoes and seeing the joy in these kids' faces

because someone who's gone through a hard time and has faced something challenging, whether it was depression for me or the loss of a loved one or loss of a job, and then being able to grab onto something like the Made For program and make a change, like there's just nothing better. Like it's the coolest thing to hear these experiences

that our members have had. And it's pretty new, right? Like you launched it pretty recently. So you're in kind of like a beta test mode with like a smaller group of people or what do you have a couple thousand people doing this? Yeah. So we started actually, so almost, I guess it was two years ago or a year and a half ago, we finished the program and we did a formal beta test of a thousand people. And they were friends, family. We did some, you know, kind of random advertising on Facebook to get some diversity in the beta group. And we had a thousand people do the beta group and we refined the program a lot during that time. We officially launched to the public on March 4th, like a few

days before COVID hit. And it was a fascinating time to launch. I mean, it was really hard from a business perspective because we had all this media and stuff planned to share what we were doing, which all of that got squashed for several months because of the news cycle so focused on COVID. But what was great about it was, I think the thousand people that signed up

those two months that did get the information through Instagram or whatever we had means of reaching people, they have become our greatest advocates because during a time of COVID, when there's so much uncertainty, so much, you know, feeling of loss, so much change, so much fear, they were able to ground themselves each month in whatever they were learning and made for. And so we've actually seen kind of opposite of our projections where it started off slow and then it's just had this hockey stick growth. And I think we have 5,000 people going through the program right now. And it's all been through this kind of people sharing their experiences. It's almost all referral in that regard. And it's been really cool to see that it has been something

that people have really benefited during this challenging time of COVID. So what is the process of bringing someone like Andrew Huberman in and like, what kind of impact does he have? Like, it's one thing to say, okay, we wanna take these people through a 30 day challenge. There's nothing unique or new about that.

So where does the neuroscience come into play in terms of, you know, I would suspect like when you're gamifying the drinking, like those are all little tweaks, you know, that I can see that being a Huberman touch, right? Totally. This is the thing that differentiates it and makes it compelling to the reptilian brain.

Yes, so I think a big part of what Pat and Andrew specifically really connected on was really Andrew's understanding of how the brain works and how habits are formed from a neuroscience perspective. And so things like moving the bead every time you drink the water, not only is your body feeling better because it's hydrated,

but Andrew was able to show us how like gamifying it in that way creates this dopamine. It's so amazing because it seems so silly. It seems so dumb, right? Yeah. But like our brains just love it. We're simple, simple folks.

You know, other things are, you know,. Other things are like in the month about sleep. One of the absolute worst things for sleep has nothing to do with how you go to sleep really, but how you wake up. And that is people using their phone for their alarm clock. Because what happens is even if you say, I only use my phone for my alarm clock, what really happens,

and they have lots of studies to show this, is that when someone wakes up and they push the button to turn off their alarm, they see a notification, they see a text, they see an email pop up from their boss, immediately their cortisol level just spikes. And so any opportunity for them to enter the day with calmness and engage in a mindfulness practice, whatever that is,

is gone. And so really understanding things like why that cortisol spike happens when you see something that is stressing and then how to intervene. And so one of the things that you get in the sleep month is we give you an old fashioned alarm clock. And we say for 30 days try not putting your phone in your bed and see a do you fall sleep better because you're not looking at stressful things or just going to internet or

last night looking at the election polls all night long um and then b when you wake up you don't have that initial strike of cortisol because you're not seeing something that can be stressful right and so it's things like that that you start hacking when you have someone like Andrew, who looks at what is actually happening with all these little mundane behaviors that we humans do. And there's a lot more going on than we realize. Well, hydration and sleep,

it's easy to kind of grok what the tasks are gonna be, but among these 10 habits, you know, it's easy to kind of grok what the tasks are going to be. But among these 10 habits, you also have vision, clarity, nature, breath, movement, like what do those look like? Yeah. What does clarity look like or vision? Yeah. So that's really about, and that, you know, in some ways goes back to the over decade that I've worked with this life coach out of Vancouver, Dave Phillips. You know, Dave really helps, mainly works with CEOs and entrepreneurs, but he helps all people that he works with really understand how your vision for your life and the level of specificity you have with it has such an effect on how you spend your life.

And how you spend your life affects your levels of stress and feelings of happiness or whatnot. And so I spoke at the earlier part about how, like, I really feel that I manifest a lot of my life through my journals. But if you take that to a step further is when you look at what your goals of your life is and have clarity around that, then you also recognize, okay, if these are my goals, this is what I want to accomplish, this is what I want to experience, well, then I got to serve these roles. So maybe my goals are this, but my roles are I'm a dad,

I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an athlete. And then if I want to achieve these goals through these roles, there's tasks that I have to do. I have to spend time with my kids, to pick them up from school. I have to be these goals through these roles, there's tasks that I have to do. I have to spend time with my kids. I have to pick them up from school. I have to be there for family dinner. So then those start to inform your calendar. And our calendar is our most sacred thing in terms of really being the predictor of a lot of our well-being. And so in this month, we really work with Dave in a process that he's developed to help you really understand how are you really spending your time?

And is that really benefiting you in the way that you think it is? having these clear goals, having these clear kind of vision and mission statements in your life that really can be your North Star and guide you so that you can make better decisions that are not just reactive decisions on what the day brings you, but that are ultimately connected to a vision and having this clarity around what that vision is. Yeah, it's interesting. The clarity piece is tough though, like to bring it back to the Hoffman example. If your behavior is being motivated or triggered by subconscious impulses that you're not consciously aware of, then your instincts and your intuition about what you should and should not be doing are tainted, right? Like it becomes a bigger puzzle to, you know, or thing to unpack to really get to the bottom of that and to get to a place where you have enough clarity, where you

can trust those instincts or that you can say with assurance that these are truly my values and this is what's driving me and this is where I want to head. Otherwise, maybe that thing that you think you wanna do isn't really the thing that you wanna do. Yeah, it's interesting. This is not part of Hoffman or made for, but it's something that I would say is one of the realizations,

biggest realizations I've had about myself and I think just humans in general. And that is even without the Hoffman process, even without great coaches, just the act of slowing down has an incredible effect of cutting through what is subconscious versus what is really in your kind of your best interest or your highest truth. And so part of a program like Made For is really getting people to slow down enough to really think about things that they don't typically think about in some ways. And so, yes, in a perfect situation, you can go deep into your inner child and your subconscious and unconscious behaviors through a process like Hoffman or something else. But even without that, just the act of doing a exercise

that causes you to slow down and really think about what's important to you, just the slowing down aspect can have great, great benefits. And I've found that my mantra right now is just to slow down in everything i do because when i slow down when i'm with my kids i really see the incredible beauty and mystery of of a five-year-old and a three-year-old um and when i slow down you know um when i'm at a dinner party with friends, I really get to feel and experience what someone's going through positive or negatively.

And it's just so easy to, our brains are so good at thinking they know what the next thing is that we can move so quickly through life and through decisions and whatnot. And so I think having clarity is one of the real keys is just to do whatever practice it is, but to slow down long enough to really think about it.

One of the things that I think seems to be a huge priority for you or a strong value is surrounding yourself with high vibration people, right? Like if you canvas your life and I did a deep dive, like you always make a point to make sure that you're dropping in on interesting communities. You know, I know you're part of the summit community, right? Like just, you know, where can I find really interesting

people who will push me and broaden my worldview and expand my aperture so I can remove those blind spots or solicit the support or be a support system to other people. So I think it would be interesting to talk a little bit about the importance of community and finding the right community that supports you and that you can support. Well, and I think it's also one of the things that seeking out different communities that are different than you, and really trying to, I mean, you brought up Summit. I think one of the things that I like about Summit

or a TED conference or TED videos or whatnot is there's people that have total different backgrounds, total different educational experiences, total different motivations in life that I can be inspired by and learn from. And so, you know, I think that's one of the hardest things about this time in our history of COVID is it's been really hard to foster that.

And most of it has been through, you know, Zoom and being very intentional about trying to connect with people and keep community. But for me, going back to realizing that life's joy and satisfaction does not come from external accomplishments. and satisfaction does not come from external accomplishments. Where I landed is I need to develop the tools and habits to regulate what's going in internally. And so that led to Made For. But also what I learned is, and I already had experiences, but I think it ratcheted even higher on the level of importance,

is it's all about the relationships that you have. And, you know, I think people who are most fulfilled on their deathbed are those who really invested time in really not, you don't have to have lots of friends, but really deep relationships. And so, you know, one of the connections that, you know, led Pat and I together and continues to benefit both of us deeply is we have a group of guys that have been getting

together now for 14 years, once a year, sometimes twice a year from our different parts of our lives. But we all feel kind of share in the same values. And we also love to do some of the same activities, mainly surfing. And, and this group of guys are all doing different things, all live in different parts of the country, all, you know, some variances of ages, you know, some kids have already gone to college and are long gone, and some are having babies next month, you know, or in four months, because Pat's having another baby. And, and so, for me, that has been one of the most beneficial things in my life to have a group of, and especially as a man, because I think it's even less regular for men versus women in this case,

to have a community or group of people that you can kind of bring anything to, and that will always kind of speak their truth to you with anything that's going on in your life. And so while I have been very fortunate to be part of amazing communities like Summit Series or TED community or these kind of more public facing communities, I think the thing that I've benefited the most from in my life has been intimate friendships and this one group of guys that I'm so close with. That's interesting. Yeah, it has been hard in this time right now to stay connected to those relationships.

And I miss it. I'm a much more introverted person than you, but I've noticed how much I'm thirsting and hungry for being just with other people. Yeah. Like this is like my social outlet. Totally. You know what I mean?

No, and I heard that we're gonna do this in person. I was so excited because I've done so many Zoom calls with friends, with Made For members. I mean like, and it's great. I mean, if there's anything I have really taken away from this in terms of is that if you bring the highest level of intention to a video call, you can really connect. Yeah. You can.

It's not all the physiological things you get from being in person aren't happening, but it's a lot. I think it's a lot more effective than we thought before COVID. Like I kind of dismissed video calls. Like, I'll just call you on the phone. But now, like if I have a friend, I haven't seen him in a while, I'm like, we're FaceTiming. Because looking in your eyes and seeing you in real time, it does make a difference. Yeah. When you look out at the landscape right now, you know, I think this relates to what you're doing with Made For.

There's a lot of acrimony. There's a lot of acrimony, there's a lot of division, there's a lot of heated debate, say the least at the moment. People are suffering. There are lots of people who are feeling overlooked, disenfranchised, and this gets translated into a level of vitriol that I don't remember in my lifetime. So how do you think about our current cultural moment and how that relates to your relationship with self-improvement and mental, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing? You know, one of the things that I really hoped

was gonna come out of the COVID experience, and I'm not as satisfied with what I've seen as what I hoped, but I think there's still directionally where we have to go as a human society is that there's so much more that is in common with us than what divides us. Like if you really just, if you just did a piece of paper and you said i mean in any of these issues uh or any of these situations like we are all as vulnerable as much more vulnerable than we realize when we see something like covid and it affects the person in the high rise in Manhattan as much as someone

in the township in South Africa. And I think there's been a lot of great rhetoric over the years and musicians and great writing about we really are all one. But I really think the movement that really has to happen is for us to really spend more time looking at the similarities and the beauty of those similarities. And I definitely feel like that is been connected to my mental health journey and realizing I'm not so special after all. Like this is not, this is not,

I'm not the only person that's experienced this. There are actually millions of people that are feeling this way or having trouble in this regard. And my desire now is to help them because that's just kind of what I like to do. Now, anything that can help people see the similarities and the connections over the differences and the divisions is something that we have to move towards. And I don't have the answer or the prescription, but that's just like in my gut, it's just like when I look around and I slow down,

really when I slow down, I really look at the specifics of what is happening. I'm like, we're just, we're losing the narrative because we're so focused on the negative or the division or the differences when there's so many positives and similarities there. And I wish I had a better answer to how we get there, but I feel like that's where we have to go.

It's certainly the only way forward, but how to get there is really a tricky problem to solve. I mean, you would think that when COVID was visited upon us as a collective, that that would be a unifying event. And that's what I thought. And what we saw was exactly the opposite. And that's dispiriting. It's a bummer that something that we could have rallied behind and come together around has really created an even deeper divide. And it's easy to lose hope about digital tools that have been weaponized to pit each other against each other. It's like, in my daily life, I'm not having strife and conflict like I see on social media. So I know in my heart that we do have this great shared, unifying threads and themes and things that we care about

with our fellow human beings. But that's not what we see when we look at our screens every day. Yeah. The impact of that, I think, is not to be overstated at this point. And figuring out how to, you know, rectify that is- Well, I think-

No small problem. You used the word weaponized, and I think that is a very fair description of how these apps and sites and targeting and all the stuff that I don't understand exactly how they do it, but I know the effects of what's happening. And it has pitted people against each other in ways that I don't think they ever would have been without these tools. And so I think one of the things that's important is for people to try to develop some real just awareness around how these things that seemingly seem innocent are affecting us in such a powerful way. Yeah. And to be more aware and mindful of just how powerful they are. And to the neuroplasticity point,

the extent to which they really are manipulating our emotional state. And I think that requires appreciating just how easily manipulated we are. Like we don't like to believe that we are, but we clearly are. And we're seeing that getting played out right now. Yeah.

I wanna talk a little bit about this, I don't know what you would call it. It's not really a blog, like this next steps thing that you published recently. Because I think there's a lot of people watching and listening who aspire to, you know, aspire to make their imprint in the world and want to do something interesting that has, that has meaning, but they're, you know, much further earlier along the path than you. And you kind of created this

multiple, I don't know what it would, what you would call it, a series? Yeah. Like a written series of lam trying to strive. Light posts? Yeah, it's like it's not enough content to be called a digital book. And we realized that, you know, I wanted to share just basically the lessons that I learned over the last, you know, 10 years of Tom's

and in the last two years of building Made For with entrepreneurs and people who want to make a difference in the world. And I was trying to think of a medium that I really enjoy and I do love to write. And I wrote a book in 2010 and that was a great experience, but I didn't want to go through the whole process of writing a book again because it took two years of my life and I just didn't have that energy right then. And I also feel that, you know, everyone is consuming everything digitally. So, so yeah, so it's kind of like a, it's like a, it's like a mini book or digital series of lessons that has, you know, pictures and videos and anecdotes from my life

experiences through Tom's and then most recently made for. And it was really fun. Like, I think that like, and one of the things that I try to characterize most of my work projects around now is, is it fun? And it was fun to kind of go back over memory lane and to really kind of sit with, okay, how did I actually start like doing that? And, you know, why was that so effective with Tom's? And how could someone who's starting a business out of their garage today or wants to create a new nonprofit, like how can they benefit from the lessons that I learned? And so I wrote this, you know, series of lessons that I call Next Steps. And it was really about looking over the past 15 years to kind of, in some ways for myself to think about like, okay,

what do I want to bring into the future? And it's been really fun because it's been, I published it about a week or two ago and I've gotten so many great interactions and conversations with people online because of it. Yeah. So it's sort of, you know, basically guideposts, right? Like go with your gut. Like this is how you trust your intuition. Why giving is good. Like they're basically principle based. Yeah. Totally based on principles through a lot of funny stories this is how you trust your intuition, why giving is good. Like they're basically principle-based. Yeah, totally based on principles through a lot of funny stories that happened through the early days of Tom's

and most recently being an entrepreneur again with Made For. What's your relationship with Tom's now? So it's such a, I describe it this way, is I feel like Tom's is my child that's in college. And I say that because, you know, whenever I, you know, call and have a great conversation with the CEO at Tom's or someone at Tom's, like, they're always seem to be really happy to hear from me and we have a great conversation. But I don't show up in the dorm room. You know, I'm not just showing up as a proud dad. Is your laundry clean? Do you need your laundry picked up and done? Exactly. So I'm there. I always am happy when they give me a call

and I'm more than happy to give my perspective on something that they're making a decision on, but I'm definitely not showing up in the dorm room. And then also it's kind of like in college, they have parents weekend, right? And so once time of year, parents come out and they get to experience everything. That's kind of the same thing. They put a dog and pony show on it. Blake's coming.

Yeah. Let's get ready. Let's see what's happening. But it's Tom's like many businesses in retail and the consumer space have been hit hard by COVID. There's some things that have been real blessings. I mean, online businesses continue to grow dramatically. But I think it's a long road ahead as we see all of retail try to figure out what the future looks like.

How many retail outlets are there now? I mean, you know, in terms of the, I mean, I think at one point, you know, in terms of number of outlets that we sold, it was like 8,000 or 10,000. You know, we never really got deep into our own retail. I think we had 15 stores when I stopped being involved. But mainly it's through, you know, your wholesale partners who have their own challenges, their own challenges like Nordstrom's or whatnot. And then we always had a strong online business because the business was really started in my garage and selling online. But that has even become more important because so many people are shopping at home now. So to date, how many shoes have been donated? So we're almost at – I mean, we're so close.

I mean, it's like 98 or 99 million. Right. So we're really close to that 100 million mark. And I think that's when they'll probably bring you back for the celebration. Right, that's crazy. Yeah. Wow. And also then you got into prescription eyewear.

There's all these other kind of giving arms to Toms these days that have broadened that scope. Which has been really, I mean, I think as an entrepreneur, those are my greatest memories of my, you know, Tom's, you know, journey. It was not just in the shoes that we gave, but then being like, oh, we can, you know, help people get cataract surgeries, you know, and in 15 minutes take someone who's blind and within 48 hours give them their sight back through a surgery that we can pay for by selling a pair of sunglasses on Abbot Kinney, you know. So I think the thing I'm most proud of within the walls of Tom's,

but then even with Tom's influence on other businesses has been just that how so many entrepreneurs and businesses see that you can be a profitable business, but also have a really meaningful impact on the world. Yeah. I mean, that's the real legacy of this whole thing. Not only did you pioneer this one-for-one model, it really reconfigured the capitalistic landscape to establish and demonstrate that you can create a very profitable company at scale and still make the giving component of it very, very real and meaningful. It's so heavily integrated that they're not separate at all. And that really, the ripple effect of that, I mean, you just see it everywhere you look now. Well, I think what's happened is society is, and consumers have changed their expectations of businesses. So before, and it's, you know, it's not just Tom's, there's been a lot

of amazing companies that have, you know, kind of been birthed around the same time or shortly thereafter that have really helped change what the customer expects from a company. And so ultimately, a company is going to behave in the way that gets more customers. And that's just the economic law there. And that was companies having a CSR department and writing a check to a nonprofit that was really meaningless in terms of the scale of their business was inconsequential but looked good in a photograph in their annual report. To now, customers want to really know how is this being sourced? What are your labor practices? What are you doing with your profits? What percentage of my purchase is actually going to do something besides just go to the bottom line? The customers become much more demanding. And I think that's good for society.

The expectation of transparency and the expectation that there is something more meaningful than just the balance sheet, the P&L statement of this company. But is there a Warby Parker without a Tom's? Like you did set in, I mean, you weren't the first to do this, but you were the first to do it at such a massive scale. For sure. Right? And that's made a huge impact. And I look at that impact in the same way

that I look at what Scott Harrison did in the inverse situation of creating a giving model that was like an aspirational brand, like bringing the best of what a capitalist culture could offer the nonprofit sector and merging those worlds and what he's been able to create and the legacy of that on just the giving ecosystem at large. Oh yeah, I mean, it's changed the way that

charities operate, the way they communicate, the way they market in such a profound way. And it's been such a joy. I've been part of Charity Water since day one. Scott's one of my greatest friends. It's the greatest. It's super cool. But when you look now, there's also like the kind of dark underbelly of all of this is the greenwashing that you see also where there's a lot of lip service to this that isn't meaningful or substantial in any way. And it's very easy for a company to say we give away 1% or we do this. And they're really doing it from, you know, a marketing. It's a positioning and marketing decision and not really, you know, part of the ethos or the mission of the company. Yeah, that's the thing.

When I speak at universities or lecture at different things, I always say is like, I think the customer demands transparency and authenticity. And you're better off to have no giving program and just be, we sell this, we make money, we have a great product. giving program and just be, we sell this, we make money, we have a great product. If you like our product, buy it. Versus trying to sprinkle on some type of feel good message. Because I think people just see through that. And I think it backfires. And I think that's been one of the harder parts about having this legacy is I have seen so many things that I've just cringed at, especially more with bigger businesses that have tried to, you know, add this on because someone in marketing read a case study

about Tom's in a business school. And so, you know, but what I always say is as long as the collective direction is to a higher consciousness in how we operate our businesses, then I feel that what we started in motion, you know, 14 years ago now is going to continue to have positive effects. Like it has to be directionally going that way. And I think that really goes back to like, you know, how conscious are we being as consumers and as entrepreneurs or people who work at companies? Well, there's a strain of economics oriented people

who cast aspersions on the conscious capitalism model, like, oh, it's bullshit, it's lip service. But I don't believe that to be true. I think what you've created and there's other examples out there, establish not only its viability, but it's almost de rigueur if you wanna be competitive in today's world.

I think so. I mean, John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. He's a friend. He's been on the show. I did his conference. I've met a lot of these people that are doing this. And I think he and through his books, and he just came out with a new one, proved that this is good business. And I think that's what's so important is, and I think that's why we've seen a shift and why more and more companies have adopted this way of thinking is, you know, there are a lot of stakeholders that you need to pay attention to in order to, you know, maximize your profits. And it's not just the investor or the financier, it's the employees, it's, you know, who helps make these products. Like everyone has to be healthy

for the business to be healthy. Right. Knowing everything that you know now and all these experiences that you've had, what is the advice that you would give to the young upstart Blake, who's, you know, hustling billboards in Nashville or starting his laundry business?

Wow. I mean, you've done pretty good. Was there anything you changed or where did you see yourself going astray? Maybe on the external validation piece? Well, yeah, this is where it's interesting. It's going to all come back to the inner journey that I've been on that we've spoken about throughout the show here. that I've been on that we've spoken about throughout the show here.

And that is through a plant medicine journey I had, through some work at Hoffman, I have a consistent theme that has been revealed to me. And if I could have understood this at an earlier age, to me. And if I could have understood this at an earlier age, I think I just would, I would have struggled less internally. And that is, I'm good enough. You know, I'm fine. I don't need to be any more perfect. Everything that I have done and that I do, um, is my best effort. And my best effort is, is enough. And I think a lot of people, um, have this inner critic and it can be a great, you know, driver for success and, and accomplishment, but it also, you know, comes with a lot of collateral damage. And I think I've carried around a lot of stress and a lot of weight internally and I've enjoyed things probably

far less than I could have if I just would have known that no matter what I do it's exactly what I'm destined to do and it's good enough. Isn't there that fear though, that if you felt like you were good enough when you were young, that you never would have done the things that you did? I don't know. I mean, that's definitely a fair assessment of that. And I definitely, there were some times and through this inner work that I've done where I'm like, well, if I hadn't have been like so competitive and I haven't been, then I wouldn't have had this drive. But it all comes with a price. And I wouldn't change the way my life has unfolded

for one minute, nor can I. But I do feel that there is a peace and a calmness that I have today that I wish I would have had earlier in my life. That's a good place to end it. Great. So much respect for everything that you've built and the service to the world.

But I think more than that, just respect and appreciation for the person that you are. that just respect and appreciation for the person that you are. Like you carry yourself with a great deal of presence and equanimity, and it's a tribute to all the work that you've done. Like I can feel it sitting across from you. Like you're here, you're who you are, you feel like integrated, you're authentically yourself. And that's a reflection of all of these things that you've done and attribute to that work. And I think ultimately it's only going to benefit everything that you put your energy into.

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. It's been great. Made for, getmadefor.com is the website, right? That's correct, getmadefor.com. And you're easy to find on the internet, just at Blake Mycoskie. If people want to find the kind of mini book series thing, that's on your website?

Yeah, it's on BlakeMycoskie.com. Cool. Yeah. Right on, man. Cool. All right. Thanks, dude. Let's do this again sometime.

Okay. Right on. I want to interview you next time. Peace. Anytime, dude. Plants. So good, right? I told you, he is a unique and beautiful human, that Blake Mycoskie.

If you dug Blake and what he's all about, I suggest that you check out the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com, where you will find links and resources to everything we discussed today. Give him a follow on the socials at Blake Mycoskie on Instagram and Twitter and check out the Made For program at getmadefor.com. If you find yourself intrigued, use the code RICHROLL at getmadefor.com to get 20% off the Made For program. It's a special gift from Blake. And no, I'm not an affiliate, just sharing his very generous offer. Reminder that my new book, Voicing Change, is available exclusively through my website. And we are shipping globally.

Inspiration and timeless wisdom from the podcast, all wrapped in a beautiful coffee table style book. Really proud of this. So pick up your copy today. Available only at richroll.com slash VC. We've got another Roll On AMA coming up later this week. So please give me a call at 424-235-4626 and leave a message with your question.

We might just answer it on air. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media and you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com

slash donate today's episode was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo the video version was shot and edited by Blake Curtis graphic elements were created by Jessica Miranda portraits courtesy of Allie Rogers and sponsored relationships are managed by David Kahn.

Theme music, as always, by my step-sons, Tyler and Trapper, and my nephew, Hari Mathis. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here Thursday with another Roll On. Until then, peace, plants, service. Namaste. Thank you.