The Rich Roll Podcast - Breaking Boston: Scott Fauble Is Leading American Marathoners Into The Olympics

Episode Date: December 9, 2019

For the vast majority of us, besting our 26.2 personal record by 3+ minutes would be considered fine. Something to be celebrated, but hardly a mind-bending breakthrough. At the highest level of distance running however, the distinction is vast. It's the canyon that separates a very good marathon runner from the greats. This is the story of Scott Fauble. Historically a very accomplished cross country & 10K runner (at the 2016 Olympic Trials he finished 4th in the 10,000 meters), Scott was unproven at the marathon. That is, until he ran 2:12 in Frankfurt in 2017 and matched that time the following year in New York. These performances certainly established Scott as a very good marathoner. But nobody, aside from Scott himself and perhaps his coach and close circle, was prepared for his stunning performance at the 2019 Boston Marathon. Not only did he surprise the world by leading the race for extended stretches, he accomplished what is almost unheard of at his level -- besting his marathon PR by almost 3 and a half minutes to complete the course in 2:09:09 as the top American and 7th overall. It was a performance that foisted him into the mainstream spotlight. Anointed him as the leading American going into the 2020 Olympic men's marathon. And established him as one of the world’s very best at the 26.2 discipline. Just as interesting are Faub's pursuits when the running shoes come off. Alongside coach Ben Rosario he penned Inside a Marathon: An All-Access Pass to a Top-10 Finish at NYC. Documenting the entire four-month journey to Scott’s 7th place finish at the 2018 New York City Marathon, it's a rare, candid (and very funny at times) behind-the-scenes look at the life of a professional marathoner. A chronicle of grit and mental fortitude, it's a must read book for anyone committed to mastery. This conversation runs the gamut. We begin with Scott's young running career. Track his evolution to Boston. And his maturation into Olympic contender. We discuss life in Flagstaff, AZ. What he has learned under coach Ben Rosario and training alongside teammates on the HOKA Northern Arizona Elite Team. We talk about the coach-athlete relationship as partnership. We go deep into his breakthrough Boston performance. The strategies and techniques that produced that amazing result. And Scott's mindset as he approaches Olympic Trials at the end of February. In addition, we explore his off-road pursuits. The intention behind writing a book. The why behind his podcast. And his deep love for burritos -- all interests I can certainly relate to. In closing, we review the mistakes he sees many amateurs runners make -- and how best to correct them. For Scott, it's about process over results. Passion over podiums. And why 'fast' doesn't always equate to 'good'. You can watch it all go down on YouTube. Humble and jocular, Scott is a natural conversationalist -- one of the good guys you just want to see win. So let's put some wind in his sail for Olympic Trials. I really enjoyed this one and sincerely hope you do as well. Peace + Plants, Rich

The sport is a lot simpler when you just don't worry about all this stuff. It's just running, realistically. Everyone wants to make it this big, complicated thing, but it's a pretty simple thing. Everyone can go for a run, and you don't have to think about all these tactics all the time, and you don't have to worry about the courses or the hills or the turns or the weather. It's just running. Just get out of your own way. One of the buzzwords in sports and business right now is process-oriented.

For me, what that means, being process-oriented, means A, focusing on day by day, and B, not judging my performances down the line against other people. They're based on what I feel like I can do and whether or not I got the most out of myself. And so for me, I don't need to worry about anyone else. I just want to do the best that I can do. And the more I get sucked into what other people are doing, the worse the end result ends

up being, I think. Really, I'm free to take big chances. I'm free to go out there and just run as hard as I can and whatever those results are will be fine because the things that are really important, the people that I care about will still be there. That's Scott Fawble and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, planetary citizens. What's happening? My name is Rich Roll.

I'm your host. Okay. For most of us, beating our 26.2 PR by three plus minutes, well, that would be considered a good thing, right? Something to be celebrated for sure, but hardly mind-bending. At the elite level, however, the distinction is vast. The difference between being considered a very good marathon runner and one of the great marathon runners. This is the story of Scott Faubel. Historically, a very, very good and accomplished cross-country and 10K runner at the 2016 Olympic trials. He finished fourth in the 10,000 meters, but unproven at the marathon. That is until he ran 212 in Frankfurt in 2017 and followed it up in 2018 with another 212 at the New York City Marathon.

And those performances definitely established that he was very good at marathon running, of course. But nobody, perhaps aside from Scott himself and his coach and close circle of teammates and friends, was prepared for what happened in Boston this past year when Scott surprised the world by doing what is almost unheard of at his level, shaving almost three and a half minutes off his marathon PR to finish as the top American and seventh overall with a time of 2.09.09, landing him in very rare air amongst the world's very best at the 26.2 discipline. That performance made Scott a favorite heading into February's Olympic trials and certainly a figure of intrigue for this show. But I think what makes

Scott even more compelling are his many rounded interests outside of running. He's a great writer. He co-authored, along with his coach Ben Rosario, this book called Inside a Marathon, an all-access pass to a top 10 finish at the New York City Marathon. And it's this kind of beautiful, transparent look behind the scenes at what it actually takes to train and compete at his level. And it's simpatico with how he transparently logs all of his training on Strava, which is very unique among the elite. He also makes YouTube videos. He even has his own podcast, which I appreciate, called Showrunners, where he breaks down his favorite movies with fellow elite runners. And this one's great.

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To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, Scott, I love this guy. This conversation runs the gamut. We cover his start, his young running career. We talk about what it's like living and training in Flagstaff, Arizona under Ben Rosario and the Hoka NAZ, Northern Arizona Elite Team. Of course, we go deep on his huge performance at Boston, his training techniques, his strategies, his preparation for Olympic trials, his book Inside a Marathon, his showrunners podcast, for Olympic trials, his book, Inside a Marathon, his showrunners podcast, the mistakes he sees many amateurs make, which is super informative and entertaining, as well as his deep, deep love for burritos, an affinity I can safely say that I share.

So this is me talking with Scott Fawble. Right on, right on, right on. All right. Good to have you here today, Scott. So nice to meet you. Thanks for doing this. Thank you so much for having me, Rich. It's awesome.

Pleasure to be here. I welcome you to the northern Arizona of Los Angeles. It's as close as we can get to your training grounds, but it's pretty nice up here. So I appreciate you making the trek. Of course. thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, of course. What I really want to talk about before anything

is the Showrunners podcast. All right, let's do it. We could just like, let's just talk about movies. Let's just dive right in, man. I mean, that's why I started the podcast. I know. I like talking about movies. It's a fun run conversation,

which is where I spend most of my social time with friends and stuff. And I was just like, I've got free time. I would like to just kind of watch movies in a more structured way. And I was just like, let's just do it. And I talked to a friend of mine who owns a, or I guess maybe not owns, but runs a running website, Sidious Mag. Chris Chavez? Chris Chavez, yeah. And I was like, hey. Chris Chavez? Chris Chavez, yeah.

And I was like, hey, can I have my own podcast? I just want to talk about movies with my friends. And he was like, yeah. And so it was perfect. How dare you think about anything but running? I know, exactly. That's right. I'm one-dimensional.

Yeah. No, I love it. I think it's so cool that you're doing that. Thank you. And I would be delighted to just talk about movies and nothing else the whole time if that's what you want to talk about. You must be tired about talking about Boston and all of that. You know, we can mention it here and there, I guess. But, yeah, I'd love to hear your takes on the new Tarantino movie.

Oh, we can do a whole deep dive on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I'm ready to go. It's sort of rewatchables with runners, basically. Yes, very much so. I don't want to take too much credit for the idea, but it's very much a ripoff of the rewatchables with runners, basically. Yes, very much so. I don't want to take too much credit for the idea, but it's very much a ripoff of the rewatchables. Well, I love that show. Yeah, it's great.

I'm a huge fan of it. So I thought it was super cool that you're doing that. And I think it's cool that you live this full life. Like you're at the very tip of elite marathoning, and yet you still carve out time to develop your interests with this podcast and writing the book and all the other things that you do. So I'm interested, I guess, first of all, in just hearing how that informs your... I presume that having all of those other interests is super important in terms of you just being a happy person so that you can perform at your best.

Whereas certain people might look at that as a distraction, especially going into Olympic year. Yeah, I think so for me, it was very strange for me to go from a college setting where I was very intellectually stimulated to a professional running setting where there's really no structured way to flex your mind and for maybe a year i really like leaned into that and i just like binge watched the office and parks and rec and 30 rock a hundred times um and then i don't have anyone to talk about yeah and after maybe a year i was like i gotta like i gotta find something else to fill the time. And that's now at this point, I've, I'm doing it in a way that I feel comfortable like sharing and having like structured interests and making it more as like an outward thing as opposed to me just reading a book inside. Yeah. Well, there's only, I mean, I would imagine your training schedule puts you at somewhere around 25 or 30 hours a week, which still leaves a lot of time, right?

Or, well, there's all the extra stuff on top of that. I mean, it is a full-time job, but there's still downtime. Yeah. I would say it's, if you include napping, maybe 25 hours a week. It's a soft 25 hours. And it's not like watching movies is strenuous by any means. I'm not going out and doing CrossFit in my spare time. I can watch a movie and recover at the same time.

It was kind of a way to use my spare time in a way that felt mentally productive. Well, getting my head around you and your life and your career and preparing to talk to you today, productive. Yeah. Well, getting my head around you and your life and your career in preparing to talk to you today, most of the media coverage about you was kind of right post Boston. So, which we're going to get into, but I'm interested in kind of where you're at now as, you know, some time has elapsed and you're preparing for trials and you've got a race this weekend coming up, where's your head at? How are you feeling?

What is your sort of mental perspective? We're like, what, 190, 180 days out of trials at this point? Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't count down. Good for you. Yeah, so physically we're doing a segment where I'm not going to run a marathon this fall. We decided to get away from the marathon after running Boston.

What is that decision about? So I ran New York Marathon last year, Boston this year, and that was a whole year of marathoning. The thing about the marathon is it's very hard and very specific, and so you don't really have time to do some stuff that don't really lend themselves to the marathon but it's still important to work on so shorter tempos speed stuff um so for the long term that will be helpful but we kind of needed to find a place to do it before the olympic trials segment really started

and we really got going on really marathon specific stuff so physically that's kind of where I'm at I'm doing a lot of workouts that I don't feel really comfortable in like I'm not they're not the workouts that are really my bread and butter but will be important for the Olympic trials in a few months and then are particularly important as we build into the segment where we really get ready for the trials yeah you know mentally things haven't changed for me I am very much a believer important as we build into the segment where we really get ready for the trials. Mentally, things haven't changed for me. I am very much a believer that the best way to accomplish goals down the line is to do really well at what you're doing right now.

So whatever is on my schedule, I just try to do as well as I can in that. And I have faith in my coach and the people around me that if I do kind of what they say as well as I can right now, the larger puzzle will come together down the line. Right. It feels like you've really, part of your mindset game is to divest yourself of thinking too hard or much about the preparation, like you really trust your coach, and you let him make those decisions, and that frees up some kind of headspace for you to just be you.

Yeah, I think that's probably accurate. And it just generally being like one of the kind of buzzwords in sports and business and everything right now is process-oriented. For me, what that means, being process-oriented, means A, focusing on day by day, and B, not judging my performances down the line against other people. They're based on what I feel like I can do and whether or not I got the most out of myself. based on what I feel like I can do and whether or not I got the most out of myself. And so, yeah, right now it's been about getting the most out of myself every day and whether or not that's a hard day or an easy day.

So be it. I heard you speaking, maybe it was with Chris, you were talking about what you respected in Kipchoge and perhaps some of the other East African runners. And one of the things is like, they don't worry about all that stuff, like whether they change the course or, you know, all the kind of externalities that can throw people off their game. Like they seem to, that's just, you know, water under the bridge to them. Like they're so focused on what they're

doing. So when I hear you say that, it sounds like you've adopted your you're striving to adopt that kind of mentality yeah hopefully where it's i think it's the sport is a lot more simple a lot simpler when you just don't worry about all this stuff it's just running realistically like yeah everyone wants to make it this big complicated thing but it's a pretty simple thing everyone can go for a run and you don't have to think about all these tactics all the time and you don't have to worry about the courses or the hills or the turns or the weather. It's just running.

Just get out of your own way is kind of my own internal mantra. But post-Boston, there's a bigger spotlight on you now. You're not as under the radar as you were a year ago, two years ago. Do you feel that or do you do your best to insulate yourself from all of that? My hope is that it doesn't change anything, the fact that I'm in a bigger spotlight. I think mentally it hasn't changed anything because I think I'm viewed as being very confident now,

but I was confident on April 14th too. I didn't necessarily surprise myself that I ran that well in Boston. I kind of knew that that was possible. And so it's not like I have to make a change. I knew I was capable of it then, and now it's just it's on the – it actually happened. But I kind of believed it was going to happen beforehand. Right, right. But at Boston you were like – what was your bib number number like 28 or something like that right so you know if you

were to make a surge or or try to do something spectacular there was the chance that they would let you go I mean we're going to tell that whole story but you could have done a little bit of a sneak move that you probably can't get away with now. Yeah, maybe. I'm not really sure. Because everyone's all eyes on you. Yeah, probably not. Maybe I could still get away with it. Boston, I have no idea. You know, Meb won after he was very, very good already. He had done some great things. So there's a chance. I don't really know. But yeah, I don't really, I'd hope that I don't change based on the fact that I have

a spotlight on me now. Yeah. And, and I also heard you say shortly after Boston that, you know, it would be a mistake for you to alter your training too much. Like this is what worked. This is what got me to this place. Like, let's kind of stay on this path and not, you know, make some rash decisions about changing up too many things leading into 2020. Is that still the case? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's probably the biggest mistake people make is they have this sort of breakthrough performance

and they're like, well, let's just push the envelope. Let's just keep pushing, pushing, pushing. But really the way we got to this point was by picking and choosing when we were going to really push and then also just hitting singles. We just trying to get on base, trying to do well at everything we did. And occasionally you swing big

and try to have a really big day, whether that's in a workout or like Boston, a big race. But yeah, I think it would be easy to get really results focused. But again, I wanted to stay, like this is the process that got us here. Let's just keep getting better at this. And we just have faith that the results will come.

Right. Well, let's work our way up to this. So you start out as essentially a cross-country protege in Colorado, right? Sure, yeah. Standout, high school, cross-country runner. Then you go to Portland, you run NCAA and, and you were a standout, but it wasn't like you were winning tons of races, like lots of

12th and 15th and things like that. And I guess you got injured in your senior year. Um, so perhaps, you know, you weren't able to show what you were truly capable of at the time, but it wasn't like, oh, here's the next new face of, you know, American distance running. Yeah. Is that fair? Absolutely. No, absolutely. I, you know, I mean, I don't think I'd be going like be speaking out of turn when I said I signed for $0. My first, my salary at the start was $0 and I signed my first contract in my girlfriend's Mini Cooper with a boot on my foot. Right. It was a very inauspicious way to start a professional running career and not at all how I had ever dreamed of it.

Well, I love how the book opens up with this email exchange. Where basically you're trying to get on this team. You're trying to get on the Northern Arizona team and Ben is like, Ben Rosario, the coach is like, nah, I don't think so. Yeah. I'm not sure if you're good enough. Yeah. And it took a little jockeying and back and forth and a word put in by Shalane's husband to even get, you know, get your name on that roster.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm super grateful for Steve to see you for going to bat for me because he absolutely didn't, didn't need to. Steve Edwards, Shalane's husband. Yeah. i think probably when i emailed ben he was like yeah all right like this i guess this guy's fine but at that point like um you know we had ben bruce was running in his prime he was running like 13 30s in the 5k and 8 20s in the steeple and matt yano would just run 101 45 and i was kind of asking it's like can i please come and And I'll figure out a way to pay for things. You don't have to pay me anything. And Ben was like, is this guy really going to be good enough? And yeah, I mean, I'm just happy to have had a chance, really.

So how does it work? When you're graduating from college and you're a standout performer and you're trying to get in on one of these squads, there really is a gate, right? You have to impress the coach or you have to be invited. How does that work for somebody who knows nothing about elite running? Yeah, the business structure for elite running is a lot like golf in the sense that we have sponsors and there's prize money. It's just way less. Whatever you see on the PGA Tour, just way less whatever you see on the pga tour just

way less than that um and it kind of depends on yeah shocking of course yeah um it kind of depends on how good you are so if you are good enough where you're kind of lighting the world on fire in college people will come to you and if you're in my position i kind of felt like i had to go to coaches and i was very lucky to have been introduced to Shalane's husband, Steve Edwards. And he kind of gave me enough guidance to be like, this is some people you could look at. And what I did was just went to every professional running team's website that I could find and emailed as many coaches as I could find their contact info. And then Ben got back to me, and I was fortunate enough that he took enough of an interest in me

to fly me down to Flagstaff, and I got to meet the team. And I don't think I wasn't a huge risk. He didn't have to designate any money to me at all. But he was basically like you can come on that come if you work really hard you can run well enough to earn a salary and that's I mean that's kind of how it happened I just put out as wide a net as I could and when Ben got back to me I knew that was kind of where I wanted to be I clicked really well with Ben Rosario, my coach. And that was that. I moved to Flagstaff in, I mean, I guess it would be almost four years ago today.

Yeah. What is it that Ben was doing or that was, you know, indicative of like, you know, his coaching ability? Like what was happening in Northern Arizona that caught your fascination? Like I was going to ask, I mean, it sounds like you were emailing everybody, but what is specific to that program that makes it so unique and excellent? Yeah, the team had signed with HOKA One One, which we're still with now, HOKA and AZ Elite, as a title sponsor earlier in the year.

And that was kind of a big thing that caught my eye because a lot of these groups, they don't have any funding. And even though I wasn't necessarily getting paid, there is an infrastructure and a prestige that comes with having a title sponsor. So that was one thing. And then I was really, really drawn to Ben's confidence and Ben's professionalism. He was absolutely 100% all in as a coach. It was like a full-time job for him.

And even though there are quote unquote professional teams, that's not something you find all the time. There are a few professional full-time coaches and there are a lot of people who are like coaching after work. So when you show up, do you have to get like a part-time job or like, how do you make ends meet when you're just beginning? Yeah. So I worked a ton Flagstaff if for those who haven't been there or don't know, it's not really a great place to find like part-time jobs. And it's especially not a great place if you say, well, yeah, I can't come to work anytime between

eight in the morning and 11 and a couple of times during the, like in the evening, I'll be gone from three to 5. I need to nap. I can't come on Thursday nights because that's when we go to the weight room. You should move to Los Angeles. There's lots of people like that. Every actor schedules something along those lines. Basically, I just made a resume and handed it out a bunch of places. I always made sure to put running first. I worked a ton over the summer before I moved to Flagstaff

and basically just burned through my savings pretty quickly. And I was fortunate enough to run very well at the end of the year and basically do enough to earn a salary starting January 1st and then ran well enough to kind of earn raises throughout the year in my career. Right. Well, yeah. Like having to bootstrap that dream, you know what I mean? It was pretty stressful. I mean, there were times when my card got declined and I was just like, well, I guess I'm not buying, I guess I'm not like, I guess I'm not buying these groceries. Like I'm going to go home and like, I got another, like another, like living stipend

coming in a couple of days. So I guess that's when I'll go get groceries. So romantic. Oh, it was amazing. Your dream. Yeah. So there you are. I mean, one of the things, well, first of all, Steve in his email to Ben, um, is like, listen, you know, this guy's a marathon or you hadn't run a marathon yet, but he saw that in you, you know, bird bones or whatever, but he's got some strength on him. He's perfectly suited for this. So there was a sense that you were well-suited for that discipline before you'd even ever tried it. So when you went to Flagstaff, was that the idea? Like, I'm going to step it up and move to the marathon? Not right off the bat, but that was quite clearly where I was gonna have the most success. And it was just kind of a question as to how long

until I'm ready to make a responsible jump to the marathon as opposed to just jumping right in. Because I had a qualifying time for the Olympic trials, which were gonna be in February. So I'm running the half, right? Yeah, so I could have gone straight to the marathon in February of 2016, but we kind of decided to push that back and just be like,

let's get miles under our belt. Let's get comfortable in some of these long workouts before we go 100% all in on the marathon. And we ended up doing that. I was still very young for going to the marathon, at least for American marathon. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the things that's pretty unique about you is that traditionally, it's many years later when, when the elite runner kind of steps it up to that distance and you made

that jump much sooner than most people, which puts you like now, you know, what are you 27 now? Yeah. Yeah. 27. I mean, that's really young. Yeah. And only three marathons under your belt. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm kind of entering my prime physically. From probably 28 to 32 is when you probably have all the tools. You haven't lost the fast twitch fibers, but you're probably not as injury risk.

But you've run enough miles to be really good. And we're kind of of the opinion that you should be running your best event when you're physically most capable. And so maybe I could train really hard for a spring and run sub-1330 on the track or something like that in the 5K. And A, I have no interest in doing that, and B, I'm better at the marathon. So I think it's important to be doing what you're best at when you're going to be the best at running in general.

Yeah, and I think there's still so much room for improvement because you are still relatively new to it, and you're young. You have your speed. You can probably handle volume more than, you know, an older person. You're going to be less injury prone. So when you look at that jump that you made from going to 12 to two, not low to a nine, um, that seems crazy, but like, you're still developing as a runner. And now here you are going into Olympic year with another year under your belt. Like that's pretty exciting. Yeah. And I, I mean, I sure hope there's still more to gain. That'd be,

that'd be huge. But, um, yeah, I'm but um yeah I mean I'm very excited very optimistic about the Olympic year and I'm I feel like we're in a good spot not only physically but also like situationally I feel very comfortable with the people around me and with what like the routines we've carved out and um you know Ben in particular but we've also got a really good weight training staff and Wes and AJ Greg, who are our strength coaches and Kairos and good massage therapists. So I feel very, very prepared, I guess, for the next six or seven months or whatever it is to the trials. So your big coming out party was Boston. I mean, you'd already, you'd done, you distinguished yourself in New York and in Frankfurt. What did you get in? You got seventh in New York, ran 212. And then you ran Frankfurt the year before that and got ninth, also running 212. So, you know, in the marathon world,

people were taking notice and certainly knew who you were. But America learned to embrace you in Boston. You know, there's- America. America being very niche America. Well, I mean, listen, a lot of people watch the Boston Marathon who don't know that much about elite marathon running. And when you took the lead and they're like, who's this guy? Suddenly you're the topic of conversation.

So let's spend a little time talking about Boston. Sure. I mean, cause that was such an extraordinary, incredible performance. And I've heard you say going into that, that you knew you were capable of going under 210 and you had a lot of confidence going into it. But that's different from being in the mix of it and sort of leading the race at certain points. Like, how do you think about that looking back on it now? Because the interviews that I listened to and read were right after that.

And I would imagine that, you know, that experience has settled in and maybe you have a little bit more perspective on it now. Yeah, definitely. One thing I don't think I did a good job of communicating immediately after the race was like when I led, I was kind of shocked. Not shocked. I took a moment to appreciate it. I was like, oh my God, I'm leading the Boston Marathon. I took a moment to let that soak in and be like, this is such an amazing experience. But it's not like I went to the lead just to say that. I went to the lead a number of times.

I'm going to get my TV time now. Yeah. I went to the lead with a purpose and with the goal of dropping people and making people hurt and with an agenda and initiative to get up to really push the pace. I took the lead for the first time seriously at 16 miles and I was in and out of the lead until 22. When I took the lead at 16, there was a group of probably 25 people and when I got over the top of Heartbreak Hill at 21 there was eight so I I don't think I communicated the fact that I really pushed I didn't just go to the lead to be there there was a point um and I mean, at this point after the race, I've kind of like let that sink in where it's like, yeah, I'm really strong. Like I can just kind of do that and feel really comfortable up front as opposed to getting up there and being really nervous and just kind of freaking out.

Yeah. Like do I really belong up here? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I've overextended myself. Absolutely. Well, my sense from reading up on this is that you were, for the uninitiated, if you were watching it,

you'd think you're putting in these surges trying to create a lead or whatever, but you were kind of sticking to your own plan of what you wanted to do, and the surges and the regressions were really a reflection of what the pack was doing. Yeah. And not really what you were doing. Yeah, especially going up the Newton Hills. So when you take a right turn at 17 and a half miles, and that's when the hills like really start. And the favorites and leaders, they would push really hard on the uphills. And there are these kind of respites in between the hills where it was unclear whether they were catching their breath or whether they just wanted to slow it down for a different reason and i would let myself slip to the back of

the group when they were running hard up the hill and then when we'd get over the top of the hill and we'd have the flat section i would just keep running the same rhythm so i'd pick it up in pace because we were running flat or downhill but i would find myself going back to the front and really dragging these people along. And that was mostly just me trying to do the best thing for me. It wasn't like a huge tactical move to try to break things open. It was just like the best way for me to get from here to the top of these hills is to run one really hard, even pace. Right. One of the things you've talked about is the difference between good and fast.

There's running fast, but there's also running good, which is more about racing. How do you put in a good performance amongst the group? And so when you're heading into Boston, you have a race plan. This is what I think I can execute. You've got it all locked in, but then you're in the pack and things are happening and you've got to adjust to what other people are doing. Like how much of that plays into spontaneous adjustments that you're making? Or are you just like, I'm running my thing. Like I'm not paying attention

to any of these people. Like, are you reactive or responsive or are you just within yourself I think at my best in Boston I was I was within myself and not worrying about the pace I mean I didn't take a split the whole race like a mile split the only way I was keeping track of how fast we're running was I'd look at the clock every mile and I would just take a note how many seconds under five minute pace we were uh-huh and then once we got to the hills at like 16 I stopped looking at the clock completely until 25 or something. You probably know yourself well enough to know like, you know, like, Oh, that was a bit, you probably knew your pace just intuitively. Yeah. Mostly the feel of it. I wouldn't say I had like a really firm grasp on what the number was, but I did know what it was

supposed to feel like. And there was a couple of parts in the race where um the pack would surge and I would kind of get left behind like most notably from like 12 to 14 there was this big surge in the group and all of a sudden I was like 20 seconds back and at that point I was thinking I was I wasn't within myself I was thinking a lot about the pace I was thinking about the numbers I was thinking a lot about the people who were running away from me. And that was my worst stretch of the race. And once we kind of got to this big downhill and I was like, okay, just letting my legs flow now, I'm going to let it turn over. I kind of got into this, I guess you would call it like flow state where things didn't really hurt. And I was just kind of, my legs were moving without me really having to push them. That was my best stretch in the race was after I got out of my own head and got out of my own way and just let myself go do what I felt like

I could do. Yeah. Well, that takes a level of maturity. You know, it'd be easier to just freak out and go, oh my God, like I gotta, I gotta pick it up or I'm going to lose contact with the group. Right. And get outside of what, you know, what your plan is, because you're reacting. Yeah, I hope so. I hope I was mature. For such a young man. Yeah. Who only had done two other marathons up to that point. But that's a tribute to you and like, you know, the work that you did with your coach and the confidence that you had going into the race. How much, like, what is going on? Like, when you're part of that pack, like, are people talking to each other?

Like, is there jockeying? Like, what is the strategy that you kind of witness unfolding amongst the leaders? Like, I think it's interesting for, you know, most people that are listening to this are casual runners at best. You know, I think everyone would be super interested in knowing, what is it what is it like like are people talking shit to each other are they like get out of my way or is there any of that going on or um what does it feel like there's not a ton of talking shit occasionally like people will like say if it's a really crowded pack there'll be some bumping right and then there'll be some chirping people don't necessarily

care for that it's a huge wide road you don't need to be all over each other right there's some etiquette right like give people some birth but i mean for the most part there are little like little mind games you can see people playing like if you've got a good tangent and someone's coming up on the inside you can kind of squeeze them out um but for me i try to just stay out of all that i just i don't want to i don't need to worry about anyone else. I just want to do the best that I can do. And the more I get sucked into what other people are doing, the worse the end result ends up being, I think.

There was one point where you went way wide of the group. I can't remember what that was. You had a better angle on the course than everyone else, and you were just kind of completely separated from everyone. Yeah, that happens kind of quite a bit. For whatever reason, I mean, part of it is that when you live in America, it's easy to get to Boston. So most of us who had seen, lived in America, saw the course at some point.

But for whatever reason, the East Africans generally aren't great at running tangents, whether it's that they haven't seen the course before or that they just don't know where the race is going or whatever. They'll almost always be on the wrong side of the road or they'll stay in the middle of the road when a turn's coming up. And it's almost baffling. Some of these guys in the race have run Boston like six or seven times. And it's like

we're coming up to a big right hand turn guys like right and they're way obviously the right side you obviously want to be over here um so i think it was mostly like i just had faith that i knew where i was going and i knew what the best plan was yeah so at some point so you take the gear you're up in the front and the the group's getting smaller and smaller you take the lead what is it like at at around like 19 or 20 or something like yeah there are a couple spots where i got in the front yeah and at that point you must be thinking i mean you're a strong finisher right like yeah i've been closing workouts really well just bust a move here and break away like these people aren't really expecting me to do anything like that um but that ended up not being the case right so walk me through like how that last part

of the race went yeah i think at like 19 was when the group was really down to like eight people and i was kind of sitting on the back going up like the last of the Newton Hills, Heartbreak Hill. And, you know, you mentioned before I was bib number 28. And in Boston, they go by PR. So I had 28, the 28th fastest PR, 212. There were 29 men in the elite field. So on paper, I should have been down there. And up ahead of me is like two four seven eight right um and i remember

thinking like the slowest guy in this group has run six minutes faster than me over the course of a marathon and then i was kind of like you know what it doesn't matter right now there's nothing i can do about that at this moment um and as we got up the very last hill just like i had at every other hill i got over the top and and I accelerated off the crest of the hill. And all of a sudden I found myself in the front. And for like a split second, I was like, you know, if I go really, really hard right now, maybe they'll kind of let me go. Maybe they'll think like we can pull them back later.

And this is my best shot. And I pushed pretty hard for like 50 or 60 meters. And they came right with me. It was too late. They were going to be covering everything. for like 50 or 60 meters and they came right with me. It was too late. They were going to be covering everything.

And so we get to 22 miles, which is kind of a hard mile, and you take a left turn at Cleveland Circle. You're going down Beacon Street now. And right as we take that turn, seven guys start running way faster than I'm capable of. They just are hammering. This is like your Dennis Christopher moment in Breaking Away. I'm just

envisioning that scene where all the Italians roll up and he's by himself and they put the pump in his spokes and he goes down. That was one of my big quips with that movie. It was like, how did he even get up with these guys? They had a gap. They should have just used team tactics stayed away but um yeah

yeah other than the bike spoke in the wheels it was basically the same thing yeah it was like they just started cranking and i just couldn't hang and for like maybe 30 seconds i threw myself a little pity party or it's like shit i'm not good enough today like i'm not gonna be able to hang um like i ran 22 great miles and i was like no you know what like fuck shit, I'm not good enough today. I'm not going to be able to hang. I ran 22 great miles, and I was like, no, you know what? Fuck that. I'm having a great day today. We're getting focused again. And it hurt a lot.

I was in a ton of pain. But when I just got really, really dialed in and just making it to the next mile marker, getting next to the next K, I could kind of get back into that rhythm. And I went back to my power phrases, the stuff that I'd been doing every time it got really hard in practice, which was like this one Jay-Z song that I like is fuck with me, you know, I got it. So I kept saying that over, over in my

head and kept reminding myself to just keep the pedal down, keep the pedal down. And eventually I caught up to seventh place, moved into seventh and got up the, there's like a tiny little hill leading into 25 at Boston. At 25 miles, it feels like a freaking mountain. Right. It feels awful. And I looked at the clock, and I saw one mile to go. I needed like a 450 to break 209. And I was like, all right, we're going for it.

And I pushed basically as hard as I could for like 600 meters. I was like, all right, we're going for it. And I pushed basically as hard as I could for like 600 meters. And then you do this little underpass and push down it, started going up it, and my legs just went. They just weren't, just like I got kicked in the nuts. And get up to the top of the underpass, right on Hereford, little bit of uphill, left on Boylston, and then you got like 600 yards.

And I still thought maybe I got a shot. Right, because you can see that finish line from quite a distance, right? Probably was still reading like two Oh seven or something. Yeah. And so I was just hammering. I was still like, I was like, I'm going to go deeper. I can go deeper. Like keep pushing yourself, keep pushing yourself. You can take more pain. You can take more pain. And it wasn't until like maybe 60 or 70 yards when it's like, I'm not gonna, not going to go under two Oh nine. I'm not going to catch anyone. And at that point I kind of let myself really enjoy the last finish. Like I got to point to the crowd. I saw a couple of friends in the stands and I pointed to the other side and finally got across the line. And then, um, yeah, then 209.09. The wall of sound has to be unbelievable.

It's incredible. Yeah. I mean, I've, I went to Boston for, they've got some shorter races, um, that weekend, but the year before when it was just pouring down rain and it was really loud then. So the next year when we had really nice weather, I couldn't believe it. You come out of the little tunnel and you turn right on Hereford and it's just, it's like a rock concert. Yeah. Or it feels like a rock concert. Yeah. like a rock concert and you are the rock star hopefully you're still rocking 26 miles in and that morning it was pouring rain it was looking like it wasn't going to be a nice day

and I was looking forward to that I wanted the worst weather possible I remember getting on the bus you get on the bus to Boston at like 5.50 in the morning and I remember texting my girlfriend it's raining so hard this is so awesome I can't wait to get into this race. And both unfortunately and fortunately, it became super, super nice all of a sudden, basically like 30 minutes before the race

started. It was just perfect day. What are the mindset tactics that you use? I mean, you talked about the Jay-Z song and like, what are the things that you kind of rely upon to, you know, meet those obstacles and those barriers and push through, you know, the pain? I would say the biggest thing is like meditation practice. I've been practicing for the better, like part of two years. And I didn't start meditating for running by any means, but I think anxiety brought you into that, right? It was, yeah. It was a way to combat anxiety and sort of just deal with it in a more healthy way. But I think once you practice it for long enough, it kind of starts to permeate other parts of your life.

So being present and in particular the strategy of noting, where when you realize you're distracted, you just say, that's thinking, and you can get back into focus a little bit more as opposed to ruminating on the fact that you're thinking and then you're pissed off that you're distracted, and that's just all more thinking. So if you can just note it and let it go, I think that's one of the more helpful strategies. What does the daily practice of that look like

for you specifically? I just meditate 15 minutes in the morning and then on good days, I get in like another 10 in the evening. Do you have a specific like practice? Do you use an app? Yeah, I use Headspace. Oh, you do?

Mm-hmm, good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool. And then like throughout the day, does that give you like that extra level of awareness when your mind drifts to like bring it back? Yeah, I would say I could be more focused in my general life and I'd try to be mindful.

But I would say the times when I feel like the most at ease and the most mindful are when I'm outside, whether that's running or walking the dog or whatever. For whatever reason, being outside helps a lot. Well, running will definitely bring you into the present, right? But I would imagine your mind still wanders. So you can, you're always in that when you're racing specifically or training, like to be always bringing it back to like what's happening in the moment. Yeah. And I don't, you know, I don't train with music. I don't ever listen to podcasts when I run. It's just me and my thoughts.

And how dare you? I know. I'm sorry, Rich. ever listen to podcasts when I run. It's just me and my thoughts. How dare you? I know. I'm sorry, Rich. I listen to you when I stretch. This interview is over. Yeah. I listen to you when I stretch and when I drive. It's all your podcasts.

I listen to them all. All the time. Yeah, every single day it's one. I've listened to the Brian Kalman one seven times, Rich. Okay. I feel better now. Yeah. Thank you.

We can keep going. Yeah, and I think just the more you can practice having sort of like a quiet mind, the better whether that's formal meditation practice or like taking 60 meters on a run and just being like, you know what, I'm just gonna be really still until I get past that tree or when you get to like a turnaround point,

just taking five seconds and feeling your feet on the ground or feeling the wind on your face or appreciating the scenery. Do you break it down into, like when you're really in the pain cave, like, okay, I just need to get up to that next tree or that next street lamp or I'm just going to focus on catching that one guy who's right in front of me. Do you try to deconstruct it and break it down into tiny little bite-sized pieces? No, I just let it all in. You do?

Yeah, I just say I can take more. That's what I remind myself. It's like I can go deeper. I can take more. This is your superpower, right? Like you have a great amount of talent, but this ability to suffer and to show up like late in the race, like that seems like these seem to be your strengths.

Yeah, I think so. Is that accurate, you think? Yeah, endure a lot. Which isn't the coolest talent. It would be way cooler if I could just be really smooth and have the same results without hurting so badly. Yeah, but being able to suffer and endure a lot amongst the group of people

who know how to do that better than anyone is, I would say that that's a good distinguishing, uh, talent to have. Yeah. I'm like as, um, as shitty as it is to be like, yeah, I can endure a lot of pain. Um, and actually having to endure it. Um, I'm grateful that I get that opportunity and I kind of look forward to it now. Yeah. What do you think is your weakness or what's the thing that you find yourself having to work on the most?

I'm probably not as fluid as most people physically. And then I think mentally I'm very solid, but I could come to practice with more enthusiasm some days, particularly in like really hard training when the workout isn't going to be that hard and you don't have to get amped for it like i sometimes i come pretty flat yeah and that's something i can do a better job at i'm aware of that does ben remind you of that uh no he hasn't had to usually i realize i'm kind of being a drag ass uh on the warm-up when i'm pissed off that i have to do it as opposed to

like really grateful and really excited for the opportunity. And are most of your workouts with teammates or do you do solo training? Like what does it look like for you? Like what's, take me through like a week of training or a typical day. Yeah, I mean, most of our workouts are with people.

So a typical day is like we meet at 8.30, go for a run, and whether that's an easy run or a workout, usually we're with a group. Before Boston, since I was the only one doing Boston, and Boston's like really specific, I wasn't really on the same schedule with anyone. I was doing a lot of stuff alone. But usually a lot of times, at the very least, I would be working out in the same place as people so we could warm up together and cool down down and it wouldn't be quite so lonely.

And after the run, you finish the run at 10, 11 o'clock, go home, usually do my rehab, then take a nap usually. And then in the evening, we go back out for four miles and that's usually on my own. And that's when I'll take the dog out and we'll run together. And then afterwards, sometimes get in the sauna, sometimes do stretching and core twice a week. We go to the weight room. I think it's, you know, it's pretty basic. Yeah. Pretty basic. Yeah. And how much of it is on the track versus on trails or roads? I would prefer to never get on the track. I just, I don't care for it. My body doesn't handle it that well. It's kind of boring.

Um, I would prefer to go. We have this really nice road. There are certain workouts that are kind of appropriate for that, right? Yeah, there are workouts that make more sense on the track. I would always rather be on the road, though. But almost all of our easy running is on dirt roads. We're lucky in Flagstaff to be surrounded by either national forest or reservation. So there's a lot of forest service roads for us to run on,

which is really fun. And then we're also lucky to have a few really good road loops. And Lake Mary Road is where we do most of our runs, which is like, I think the road goes like 60 or 70 miles, but we have a 16-mile section that's marked every quarter mile. So we do a ton of workouts on that. We have a 16-mile section that's marked every quarter mile. So we do a ton of workouts on that.

One of the things that distinguishes you from people in your subculture is how transparent you've been with all of your training. In addition to writing this book inside of Marathon, where you literally, like, this is what I did every single day, to the minutest detail, you share all your workouts on Strava. You know, you write about it. You make videos. Like, you're doing a lot of things to be a complete open book about how you're preparing. And it's one thing for an amateur athlete to do that.

And I think, you know, a lot of people use Strava to get the added, the sort of accountability with their friends, et cetera. But you don't see that many elite athletes at their prime sharing their workouts. Like you'll see people after they retire and then they're happy to do it. But there's this sense like, well, I don't want to, you know, let people know where I'm at specifically because that might give them a competitive advantage. So walk me through the decision of being so open about it and why that's important to you. Part of our groups, the Hoke NAZ Elite, mission statement is to share your part of the journey. So part of it is that.

I'm trying to do as good of a job in my job as possible and live up to my BASA standards. As a brand ambassador. That's right, yes. And do as well as I can in representing HOKO. Part of it is also that creative stimulation.

It's fun to think of fun like interesting clever ways to share your training and on strava i don't participate socially really i just i put it out there right um just because i found like you read the comments occasionally sometimes um but like there's never any i've never had like a constructive conversation or anything on Strava. People will either believe you did it, or they'll say that's the wrong activity type, or they'll say it's bad GPS data. And so I just leave it be. So I'm just like, all right, this is what it was.

This is what I did. So that's kind of changed a little bit. But I think it's interesting and fun and like kind of creatively difficult to share your training in a way that's not like a training log like I know that inside a marathon is in its most basic form it was always going to be a training log but we were hoping it was more like a journal which is more fun and interesting and harder I I think. So part of it is being a brand ambassador. Part of it is kind of trying to be creative and use your brain a little bit

as opposed to just running and posting an Ernest Hemingway quote on Twitter. There's only so many times you can do that before even yourself gets bored. Well, it takes a little bit of confidence to say, I don't care whether you see what I'm doing or not, because I'm still going to do it. And, and, you know, you still have to do the work, right? One of the things that's interesting in scrolling through it, though, is, you know, I think a lot of people feel this pressure on Strava, like every workout has to

be super epic. And, you know, if their pace isn't good, they won't upload it or whatever. And there's a lot of like workouts where it's like, you're running seven minute pace. It's like, it's six miles, eight miles. It's like, well, you know, a lot of people can do that, right? And I think that's really cool because it shows people the reality

of preparing for a marathon, which is there is a lot of like, basically just like casual running that gets, you know, built into it. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess part, it is. Then you'll throw down some crazy workout. That is fun.

Yeah, that is fun. Yeah, and also, I guess to your previous point, like in terms of my competitors, it's like, I don't really care if they see what they're doing because if they see what I'm doing because A, they're not going to change it. I would think less of somebody.

Do you follow some of those people? Is anyone else doing this? I don't know that anyone else really does it. I would. Most of them are my friends, so I would follow them. But it wouldn't change what you were doing. No. I would think less of somebody

if they had a whole plan for a marathon laid out, and then they saw a workout I did, and they're like, oh, I know actually I want to do that. Right. And frankly, like... That would not be smart. No, and I've never had a marathon segment that went 100% smoothly. If you want to read inside a marathon and copy everything that I did,

it's like, okay, I bombed a couple workouts. Why don't you just blow up in a few workouts there? It's not like an addition problem. Why don't you just blow up in a few workouts there? It's not like an addition problem. It's more like a soup or a recipe. Like you've got to put a little bit here and put a little bit there, and maybe something isn't ripe or something isn't right,

and you have to adjust. So I don't think anyone has ever said, okay, that's what they're doing. We need to do that and then beat me. Right. Yeah. Well, one of the things in Inside a Marathon that I think is so interesting, I mean, really, you can characterize it as journals or as a travel log, but I look at it as a case study in the coach-athlete relationship.

Yeah, there's a lot of that. It's a deep dive into how that works. And it's very inside baseball. Like if you're training for a marathon, like read this book, it will walk you through. You'll learn so much about how to do that. But I think every coach should read it because it's really about like how the coach

responds to the athlete and what that relation, the dynamic nature of that relationship. And there's that one part in particular where you're all keyed up for this workout. I think it was two times six miles or whatever, and Ben decides to discard it. And there's a whole, you know, kind of discussion about that. Um, and it's super interesting to see just how this is in a constantly evolving thing. It's not like, here's your plan, this is what we're doing. It's like, how are you feeling today? Like all these micro adjustments that are happening all the time

and the communication that's required on behalf of both the athlete and the coach to really produce the result that you're both looking for. Yeah, and Ben does a great job of sharing that in the book. And you can kind of see, I guess there's like two instances. One where I don't give him a lot of information about how shitty I'm feeling. And it was like early in the book, kind of in the summer, I'm just feeling really bad, bomb a workout, feel like dog shit in a workout that should have been pretty easy.

And then later in the segment when I'm telling him, it's like, dude, I'm tired, I'm beat right now. Then we actually make a decision, um, to, to change a workout. And Ben is clued in. It's kind of, it's small, but you can see kind of the negative side of maybe not communicating enough with your coach is when I was feeling really tired and terrible. And he was, I didn't really tell him cause I thought this is my job. I'm just supposed to do what I'm told. But he knows. Yeah, but I should have been more open about how shitty I was feeling. But maybe I was nervous to tell him that I was feeling shitty

or maybe I didn't want to tell him or whatever it was. But yeah, a couple times in the summer I should have been more open. Right. For the kind of uninitiated, it's interesting. Like there's so much heat around this one workout. It's like, dude, it's just one workout, right? But there are these, like you're doing a ton of running, but there are these particular workouts

that pop up from time to time at, you know, at these determined, you know, interval points that are super important in your build and in your prep that you kind of like, you just gotta put in, right? So although it was just one workout, it was like a super important one. Yeah, I mean, I still ran great in New York. Like we put a ton of importance on it,

but ultimately like one workout didn't make or break the segment any more than any other workout did. You know, I could have, there could have any number of those workouts, they could have bombed. And I dropped out of what I would consider kind of an important workout as well. And we just canceled another one. So you could make the case that

as long as you just do enough, it'll be fine after reading the book as well. I think all the importance is more like a projection as opposed to sort of actual scientific reality. Right, right, right, right. After working with Ben for a couple years now, what have you learned about what makes a great coach? Like what's the difference between a great coach

or a great coach-athlete relationship versus maybe some other types of things that you've seen over the years? I think, I don't necessarily, I don't think this all applies to just coach athlete, but I think it's probably trust and openness. Like the more information I can give Ben in a cohesive way is going to let him make better decisions. And it's also, I have to trust him to make good decisions as well. Just two weeks ago, we pulled out of a race that I was really looking forward to

because I got a little bit of flu-like virus earlier in the week and I just didn't look good, but I still wanted to go race. And Ben said, that's a bad idea, I think. And I just, I have to trust him on that. Because if I don't trust him, what's the point of even having a coach? Have you ever gone to loggerheads with him though? What do you mean? Like had a

conflict where you felt really strongly about doing something and he disagreed? Um, no, I don't think so. I think if we ever did that, it would be like, why do I even, why am I even working with Ben? If I'm just going, if we're just butting heads all the time, I really do trust him to make good decisions. And at some point,, his record has to speak for himself. We've run well at three marathons, myself and him. My teammate, Kellen Taylor, has run 224. She ran 226 again this year. We've had countless top 15s at world marathon majors.

He knows what he's talking about. It would be pretty arrogant of me to presume that I can just make a better decision than him when really like he's paid to make good decisions and he's done a good job of it for so long that it would be pretty silly to be like, yeah, you know what, I know better actually. But at some point as you get more and more experience,

you learn to know yourself very well, right? Like, I would imagine there's a point at which, like, you know what you need or you feel you're going to start to feel more strongly about this, that, or the other thing. And there's sort of a taking ownership thing that takes place, right? And learning how to, like, navigate that with the coach relationship, I would imagine. You see super elite, experienced athletes who have disagreements with their coaches. Maybe that's healthy, or it depends on the coach and the athlete, obviously. But it is interesting. You're really like, you just let him do his thing.

Yeah, and he lets me do my thing. There have been a lot of times where I've been feeling really good in a workout, particularly my biggest one before Boston. We did just 16 miles steady, and I was feeling really, really good, and I really, really pushed. In general, he would be like, okay, let's not go to the well today. Let's not leave the race out here. But he trusted me that I was feeling really good and to make a good decision. Um, so he trusts me as well. And there, I do have a little bit of autonomy, but for the most part, like, I just want to do what I'm told.

I just like, I like seeing what's on the paper and I don't want to have the stress of like trying to figure it out. I just want Ben, I just trust Ben enough to where it's like, look, if I do what Ben says and I do it really well in the end result, you'll be where I'll be where I need to be. Yeah. Cool. What do you think are the, the defining qualities of like the ultimate marathon runner? Like what do you, what do you have to have in order to succeed at your level at marathon running? I mean, I think physically you have to be very durable and you have to get really, really good at running marathon pace. I think that's the thing that most people probably mess up. They probably do the wrong indicator workouts.

So their workouts, they'll do a workout that is a really good indicator for running a half marathon or running a 10K on the track and they'll be like, look how fast I ran in this. It's like that's six by mile isn't the same. So I think physically it's being very durable and getting really, really good at running about the pace you'll be running in the marathon. And that just doesn't mean just getting really good at knowing what the effort is, Um, and that just doesn't mean just getting really good at knowing what the effort is, but it means getting really, really efficient, trying to not go, not burn too many calories too fast, being good at replacing them.

Um, and then I think mentally, I think it's important to expect to feel bad to let it in. Like you have to make peace with the fact that this is really going to hurt. There's no way that this won't be excruciating unless you're just out there jogging. Yeah. And I think the sooner you make peace with that, the sooner, like the easier it is when it comes, you're expecting it, you're looking forward to it as opposed to like worrying about the last four miles and dreading them.

That's just going to make them worse. I would imagine your mindfulness practices and your mindset techniques have helped you with that. Like to just embrace, like this is what it is. Like bring it on as opposed to being afraid of it happening down the line. Like, oh, in two more miles, I'm really gonna feel it. Yeah, and when it does come, letting it in,

like it's there, it's coming along for the ride there's no way the pain isn't going to hurt but you can't let it be the one that gets to make the decisions you have to be right the one in charge and if you let it in if you acknowledge that it's going to be there then you got to be in charge of the pain and it doesn't get to hold you back maybe it keeps coming maybe it keeps coming maybe it hurts a ton. But if you stay in front of it in terms of like, I'm just going to let this really hurt. Um, I think that's much more healthy than just fearing it and letting it be the boss. Right. One of my favorite questions that I like to ask uh elite athletes like yourself like one of the

things that's that's unique about marathon running is you go to these races and you compete and all the everyone all the in the hoi polloi like everybody gets to compete at the same time what have you seen um amateur runners do wrong like where you're like what's that guy doing come on you know like you know there's always these stories like the day before the race they're not doing tempo runs on the course or you know things like that like what do you see all the time that you and your buddies are like don't they know that they shouldn't do that one thing i would say trying something brand new the day before the race. It's like, especially at these big races like New York or Boston.

Totally different pair of shoes. Like, oh yeah, I just got these new socks. They're supposed to be better. Like going to the expo to buy shoes. Like you didn't come with a pair of shoes. Right. And then spending all day on their feet.

And it's like, would you do this if you had a workout tomorrow? Or conversely, people who just spend the whole weekend in the hotel room it's like you are in a big city like go enjoy yourself a little bit just have like what would you do the day before a workout you might go for a short run and go for a walk and go grab breakfast or something like that do the same thing it's fine like you people

i guess the thing that i see people do wrong is make these races into like this huge, like special thing that is not the same as how they prepared. It's like, no, you're, you're ready. You're prepared. Do the same thing you would have done normally. Like this doesn't have to be, you don't have to get out of your rhythm just because now you're in Boylston, you know. But there's all this second guessing and last minute adjustments. And I think that comes from fear, insecurity for the best part. I think so.

I think people probably get in their own way a little bit too much as opposed to just, you know what, I'm here in Boston. I want to have a little bit of fun this weekend. I want to take in the marathon atmosphere. But it's like, you've done this a ton of times. If you've trained well, you of times you know you've if you've trained well you should kind of know what's coming and if you qualified for boston yeah you kind of know what to do yeah right just get out of your own way just go have go out there and have fun you know it's

supposed to be fun yeah you don't have to worry about it don't have to stress about it and frankly like people put all this pressure on themselves and really it's not like that important like i know that even for me like i know this is my job and this is how i make money but if i go out in the trials and like i get sixth or i run three hours or something like that it's like the people who love me are still gonna love me uh-huh the people my friends are still gonna be my friends like i'm a hundred percent sure my girlfriend won't dump me if I run bad at the trials. Um, and if all the, if I I'm, so it's really, I'm free to take big chances. I'm free to go out there and just run as hard as I can. And whatever those results are, we'll be fine

because the things that are really important, the people that I care about will still be there. Right. Uh, you got yourself into like a little bit of hot water when you said this thing of like, if you were given the choice of running under two hours or giving up burritos for the rest of your life, that you would stick with the burritos. And that caused a lot of discussion. Yeah, I mean, I made it. About your commitment to the sport.

I made a joke. Yeah. People like, you know, on these forums these forums you know they take this stuff seriously yeah i mean i don't like i don't know what else you want me to do like well i just i'm like look i'm living my life like my happiness is important and i like speaking of like making a joke i love like in the beginning of the book you cut you it up by saying, I've always wanted to be the subject of a book or a documentary. And you go on to this kind of like hilariously, like self-mocking narcissistic, you know, like rant

that is, I thought it was hilarious. Thank you. You know, and, but I think what I, I hear the same tone in that, in the joke that you made. Yeah, I try not to take myself too seriously by any means, Like I know that the reason I have a platform is pretty stupid. Like I can run pretty fast. I'm not changing the world or like writing important books or anything like that. Like I'm a guy who can put one foot in front

of the other pretty quickly for a long period of time. Like I should have some fun and I should make fun of myself a little bit. Yeah. appreciate that yeah um what do you make of all the like we're in an interesting time and running right now like there's some really cool kind of storytelling happening and and and the running world like outside of just elite marathoning has really exploded with the expansion of ultra running and like the breaking two project and and you know you see people crossing over from from like what Walmsley's doing, like, you know, going from Western States into, you know, half marathon and marathon and all that kind of stuff. Like, how do you think about how you, you know, as somebody who's into movies,

who's into storytelling, who's written a book, like, how do you think about storytelling and running and how you connect with the public about what it is that you do? Um, yeah. And I would extend the storytelling like explosion kind of to cycling as well. And I think in running we're, we're behind cycling. We can do a better job. Um, you see, especially this education first team, they've got sending people to these alternative races, the Dirty Kanza, Leadville 100. And I think one of the huge powers in that in running is there's a lot of ways now to have fun with it. You see these unsanctioned races like the Speed Project where there's just unsanctioned 340 mile race.

the Speed Project, where there's just unsanctioned 340-mile race. And because these things exist, and we're at a place, especially with social media and Twitter and Instagram, there's a medium for people to share these stories really easily and really accessibly. You don't need multi-million dollar budgets, and you don't need to put this out on HBO or on Sundance. You can just make it and then put it on the internet. I think the storytellers have done a really good job of finding these niches of people who are just having fun.

We in the elite world need to take a cue from them, the storytellers who are sharing documentaries about the Speed Project or Barkley Marathons and figure out ways to make what we're doing interesting and fun. And I think there are some interesting or some good examples of that. I hope Inside a Marathon is one of them. We really tried hard and have worked really hard to make something that we're proud of. But I think a lot of it comes down to initiative. And I don't necessarily know if there's enough initiative,

in my opinion, from the elite athletes to go out and make it. You can't just wait and rely on outside sources to come and make the project. You have to tell your own story. No, you have to take responsibility for that yourself. And you've been doing that. You make these YouTube videos. And I feel like you've really taken that mantle and embraced yourself. And you've been doing that. You make these YouTube videos and like, I feel like you've really taken that mantle and, and, and embraced it. And I think it's, I think it's important as a professional athlete and as a sponsored athlete and brand ambassador, like this is part of your job now, right? To like storytell, because I think it's easy for the general public to look at somebody like yourself or, or a Shalane or a Des and just be like, I can't relate to these people. Like, they're just cyborgs.

But that's not the case. You're all human beings. And, you know, you're down at the coffee shop eating a burrito and working on a book. And you're a human being. And you have stories to tell. And there's a lot about who you are that's incredibly relatable. And the more that the general public can kind of connect with your journey, the more invested they are in your success and ultimately the more connected they are

to the sport. Absolutely. I agree. I mean, I think you said it much better than I did previously there. So let's just take your answer. You can dub it over my voice and if you could write it out, I'll just restate it. Yeah. I think it's, you know, you are seeing more and more of it. Like Gwen Jorgensen now is doing this vlogging. I think that's really cool. And I just think more and more that's part of the job. And I think more athletes, you're gonna see more athletes doing it,

but it's like an added expense too. And it's like, who wants somebody following them around with a camera all the time? Like you're trying to be your know, be your very best. And yet when you put this book together, there's incredible photographs from like all of your workouts. Obviously you had, you know, you had the forethought to like have a photographer there for all of these sessions so that you could document it and share it.

Yeah. Well, we were very lucky that Ben's wife, Jen, she is a photographer. She also did all the formatting for it and put the book kind of together. She's very, very talented at that. So we were lucky to have that. I don't necessarily know if we would have had the budget necessarily to have someone do it if we had to pay someone to come out every single time. You got it self-published. We did, yeah.

And that was kind of like we never like, making this a financial thing. Like, we were just like, this would be really cool if it existed. We would be into this. This will be fun to make. And so it just kind of made the most sense. It's like, let's just do it exactly how we want to do it, and let's just put it out. And then you could also put it out really quickly. Yeah.

So did it come out, like, right after New York? Yeah, I think we got it out by December 20th. Wow, that's really fast. So New York was like November 4th, so less than two months. And that included writing the last three chapters, all the edits, all the epilogues, picking the pictures. And then we had a little trouble finding a printer that we could get it printed um uh you know

for a reasonable price yeah that's the thing you have to you have to become this project manager and handle all this kind of stuff which i did not expect when we first started i was just like yeah we're just gonna write and there'll be pictures and then it'll be out it'll just we'll just put it out and you have to pay for the printing yeah before anyone buys it yeah and now i mean we've since boston we we've added another chapter, and we're going to release a second edition coming out soon. Oh, cool. So it's still kind of turning into a little bit more of a living document,

and Ben and I both hope to do a future one. Hopefully, if I make the Olympics. Then you do one for the Olympics. Yeah. This becomes a series. Absolutely. And mostly, I just want to do it so I can call it Inside a Marathon to Tokyo Swift. Yeah. series. Absolutely. And mostly I just want to do it so I can call it Inside a Marathon to Tokyo Swift.

Yeah. Yeah. And I am sure that won't be the official name, but that's what I will exclusively refer to it as. Or Tokyo Draft. Tokyo Draft. That's a good one too. One of the two.

Depending upon how the race goes. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it was like really fun. And I think that's something that kind of people just think about how hard it's gonna be when they're thinking about telling a story. And it's actually really fun too.

There's some stuff that I didn't care for, like editing isn't my favorite or like... I like all the footnotes. Yeah, but like writing the footnotes were my favorite. That was great. It was fun to come up with jokes. Yeah. But like writing the footnotes were my favorite. That was great. It was fun to come up with jokes. Yeah. So much of the conversation over the last year or two, when it comes to marathoning in America has been about the women. Like we've seen this resurgence of the prominence of American women marathoners, which has been really cool to see, but not a lot

of talk about the dudes. And even in the coverage, it's like, it's about the women, which has been really cool to see, but not a lot of talk about the dudes. And even in the coverage, it's like, it's about the women, which is like an awesome thing. But now here we are, we have you in like, you're on your, you're like, you've kind of emerged as this face and voice of American marathon running. So, you know, how do you like take stock of American marathon running right now versus what it was a couple of years ago? Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, the coverage has deservedly been on the women. They've been competing at a higher level, Des and Shalane, both majors. You know, we've got big stars in Molly Huddle and Emily Sisson, my teammate, Kellen, Steph, Bruce, another one of my teammates. They've both been running at a level that is, frankly, higher internationally

than what the men have been doing. So I'm not begrudging the fact that we weren't covered as heavily as the women. I think that's great. And I also think there's room to cover the women a lot more. There's still races every year that, world marathon majors that don't start the women ahead. So the coverage of the women is almost unwatchable. They're just buried back behind.

You know, Chicago did it last year and we missed one of the great races ever. So I think there's still a lot of opportunity to share women's running better. That being said, I guess like, I think American men's running better. That being said, I guess like, I think American men's run marathoning has always been pretty good, I think, but the times haven't necessarily reflected that. That's kind of what I meant when I said there was this disconnect where everyone kind of thought good and fast were the same. And if you just want to take speed, the American men are, this year so far, we've had two 209s, myself and Jared Ward.

And that's about eight minutes slower than Elliot Kipchoge's world record. There's a whole battery of East Africans who can make mincemeat of that. Yeah, but in terms of running well and placing high, I think American men's marathoning is actually doing pretty well and has been doing pretty well. We've finished high at Boston's, New York's. We've had people on the podium. We've been, if you want to say, in championship racing scenarios where there's not rabbits and there's not just, all right, go out, see who can run the fastest. Probably the third or fourth best country in the world behind Kenya and Ethiopia. And maybe you could put a Uganda or Eritrea in front of us.

So I think we've been doing well, but not necessarily in a way that's tangible. Nobody really knows what's sixth or seventh at New York is, especially when you're six minutes behind the leader. But that's just kind of my take. I'm sure that somebody on Let's Run will hear this podcast and get mad at me again for it. You can be sure of that. But I don't give a shit.

So the fastest, is Ryan Hall still the fastest? No. Yeah, sorry. So he's run, Ryan's run the fastest ever marathon by an American. He ran, was it, I think it was 204? 204. 204.58. 204.58 at Boston.

And then the American record is 205.30 something by a guy named Khalid Kanuchi from like 2005. And then we've had Galen Dathan. Yeah, we've had people running in the, Meb, yeah, running in the 207s, 208s. Right, and so your low 209 is like 11th on that pecking order right now. Yeah, 11th all time. So heading into trials, you've got to get first, second, or third to make the team.

Who are you? I know you're just thinking about your own race, but who are the other people to watch in your opinion right now? I think over the last few years, a guy named Galen Rupp has been on paper, probably the best American marathon or he's run two Oh six or something. And he won Chicago second at Boston. So, um, on paper, he's very good. Um, and should be the favorite probably. Uh,

but there's also, um, a good friend of mine, Jared Ward who finished right ahead of me in New York and then right behind me in Boston. How much training were you guys doing together? He was in Flagstaff for about a week, so we went on a few easy runs and then one really big workout before New York. And then I didn't really get to train with him since then.

But he's your dude. He's a guy, yeah. I really like Jared. And we've competed against each other since college because he went to BYU, I went to University of Portland and they're in the same conference. So I've been racing each other a lot. Usually he's beaten me, but I'm excited to kind of, I got him in Boston. Yeah. I got the better PR. So I own him now. If you're listening, Jared, I own you keep that in mind. But we've got a good group of other really talented runners.

but we've got a good group of other really talented runners. Shadrach Bwatt has been top three at Boston. Chris Derrick, unfortunately, just broke his ankle, but he's very talented as well. Dathan Ritzenhine has run 207. So I think those guys and a lot of others should be ready to go and in good form at the trials. Right, so trials are end of February. good form at the trials. Right. So trials are end of February.

Yep, February 29th. Atlanta. And how does that course break down for you? It's going to be really hilly. It looks like it'll be about 1,300 feet of gain and loss over the course of the race. So it's going to be three eight-mile loops. And I think that favors me. I'm here to race really hard, and I think the lack of rhythm kind of is right up my alley

where it's just going to be really, really hard, and I think that suits me pretty well. How are you going to not get injured? How am I going to not get injured? Yeah. Well, I've been lucky to be pretty durable, and I go, or I go see a, I get a massage every week. We have two good chiros. I think that's one of the things that a lot of amateur runners could do better is you put all this money and time into training and stuff.

And then as soon as something like pops up, you're like, I'll just figure it out. You know, like my ankle hurts. I'll just figure it out. It's like, no, no, no. Find like a chiro, find a massage therapist, find a physical therapist that you can go see you've you're gonna buy 300 pair of shoes but you won't spend 60 or 80 bucks to go see a professional who's gonna give you exercises and rehab and help you to be healthy so i do that i'm a big believer in that and so chiro you get like

your back cracked and you do decompression or what does that look like specifically? Yeah, a lot of it's ART, active release therapy. Painful. Yeah. The dry needling, our chiro's are dry needle certified. And sometimes it's scraping, sometimes it's... Cupping. Yeah. You mean cupping?

No, they haven't ever cupped me, but if they ever want to, I trust them. You got to get on the cupping. Got to get on the cupping. Okay. Yeah. ever want to trust them you gotta get on the cupping gotta get on the cupping okay um yeah uh it's i would say they probably look more like a pt than a typical chiro it's not a ton of like back cracking spine stuff it's a lot more wherever you're kind of injured and trying to figure out the root cause that and what is the other aspect of recovery look like for you like

you do the foam rolling and like the do you have the Norma tech boots and what does that entail? Yeah, I do have the Norma tech boots, try to foam roll a lot and just generally do the rehab that the chiros give us. And we also go, we do strength work twice a week in the gym and there's like Olympic lifts, like deadlift squats, that kind of thing. And that's not only performance enhancing,

but it's also rehab as well right um and but i mean honestly like i can sit here and talk about all the little tiny things that i do for recovery but really like sleep is the biggest one i try to take a nap pretty regularly try to have good sleep hygiene with like not doing stuff in my bed other than sleeping and um yeah and try to go to bed a reasonable hour wake up get right out of bed that kind of thing just regular sleep stuff nothing it's not too special yeah like what's your special morning yeah no you just get up just you wake up and you get up and drink coffee that's the morning routine yeah um is uh is the u.s olympic committee have have they invited you up to Colorado Springs? Is there any of that kind of stuff going on? I know in swimming, they'll do training camps and they'll

bring the top people in for little week-long sessions and things like that. Does that happen in marathon running? Not so much. The Olympic Committee's more hands-off, I think, in running than in most sports. And the running slot, it's more corporate. I think it's more well-funded in the sense that more groups have the resources. We don't necessarily need to go through the USOC. And so what's the one thing, if there is anything, that you're really focused on working on now that you weren't in your lead up to Boston? This is the one thing I really want to master

that I feel like was holding me back before. Or is it just I'm doing the same thing? The training has changed, I guess, now since I'm not getting ready for a marathon. But in terms of big picture stuff, I just want to do the same stuff. I don't feel like I need to do extra. I don't need to go back to the drawing board. I just want to do the same stuff that got me really, really ready for Boston.

I don't want to have this sort of neuroticism where it's like, I need to do more, I need to do more, I need to do more. Do you have a goal time in mind? No, the course is going to be too hard. I just want to be top three. And what is the course like in Tokyo? It will be pretty flat, but it will be really, really hot and humid.

I think this year on the day we were supposed to have the marathon, like if it had been this year, it was well into the 90s with 90% humidity. That's really high. Yeah, it'll be brutal yeah yeah um do you do any like do you go train in certain places to acclimate to that i mean because you know flagstaff's super dry yeah you have the altitude but it's a completely different climate i think for the olympics we probably will um whether that's like houston or hawaii or maybe even going to like okinawa or something like that we We haven't, we're trying to make the team first, so we haven't discussed that. But, um, in general,

we're capable, like we have as kind of a sauna protocol for going to a really hot, um, climate where we'll just sauna for, you know, 15 to 30 minutes, like 10 times in the three weeks leading up to the race. And that will kind of help and overdressing and stuff like that so you don't put the treadmill in the sauna i haven't done that no i've heard of people doing that people do that for bad water yeah train for bad water i don't ever run on the treadmill either i would i don't care for the treadmill so um i just rather go outside so we just we just found the title for the podcast yeah i don't care for the treadmill that's it that's it that's it yeah That's it. That's it. Yeah. Um, you seem like somebody whose motivation is really internally generated. It's not like,

Hey, I need to beat this guy or I need to be on this podium or to win. Like this is about you versus you. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. And it wasn't always like that. A lot of it was sort of like, like almost petty, like, man, I want to fucking beat this guy. But I think in... Fuck that guy. Yeah, fuck that guy. I got to beat these guys.

And there was a little of that in the book too. But in 20, maybe 2017, 2016 maybe. No, it would have been 2017. I ran the Houston half marathon. It's usually really good weather, really fast course, 2016 maybe. No, it would have been 2017. I ran the Houston half marathon. It's usually really good weather, really fast course, really flat. This one year was just like soupy, and we weren't going to run fast. And it got really hard at like 10 miles, and I threw myself a little pity party.

Like I wasn't running as fast as I wanted to. I wasn't beating the guys I wanted to. And I was like, this is bullshit. This is stupid. I don't want to do this anymore. I want to drop out. And I kind of jogged into the finish, I don't wanna do this anymore. I wanna drop out. I kinda jogged into the finish and it wasn't a good time

and I finished a lot lower than I should've finished. And I kinda looked at that race and I was like, I probably can't. This probably isn't a sustainable form of motivation, being like, I have to beat these people. I need to figure out a more sustainable way to push myself. And then two weeks later, we had the US Cross Country Championships in Bend, Oregon. And it was

snowy. It was bad weather. It was really muddy course. And this was to qualify to go to the World Championships. And top six go. I was in the lead group. There were like seven of us going into the last 2K. And down this big hill, I fell and slipped. And I lost 20 meters or something. Hammered as hard as I could to try to get back onto the group. And I fell again on a corner. And all of a sudden, they're like 70, 80 meters ahead. I'm just watching the last world cross-country spot go away from me. And I kind of was like, look, maybe maybe that's gone today but I can still hurt as

much as I possibly can I can go as hard as I possibly can and that was probably the most I've ever hurt in a race was the last k I just absolutely dug deep and ripped as hard as I could and I probably wasn't running that fast but I was going as hard as I could go and I was really really proud of that race because I wasn't worried about what other people were doing. I did the thing that I wanted to do, which was do the best that I could do on that day. And I've kind of made peace with the fact that sometimes I'm going to run as well as I can possibly run and I'm going to get beat. I'm not the most talented, best runner in the world, but, and I can't control who else comes to the line or the fitness that

they're in or any of those extrinsic factors, but I can control how well or how hard I go today. And maybe I have a mediocre day and I'm trying to turn that into a good day. Maybe I have a good day like I had in Boston and I'm trying to turn that into a great day. So I don't know, that's kind of been, that's kind of how I got to this point. Yeah. I mean, I like that, you know, that is the sustainable fuel that you need. The anger and the sort of lower emotions might get you to a certain place, but ultimately it's not going to serve you over the course of a career. You got to find a different seat for that, for that drive. But were you always like super competitive when you were a kid?

Yeah. Like what was it like growing up? Like where does that come from? I don't really know. I mean, I was just competitive right off the bat. Maybe it was just like my parents. I'm good at this, I'm just gonna win. Yeah, my parents started us,

my sister and I in sports really young and it was just like, I realized like it's really fun to be good at something. and when you kind of butt up against that and you're young a lot of it is based on how like much do you want it like talent and training when you're like 12 years old doesn't have as much to do with it as like you know what I'm just gonna run harder I'm just gonna go deeper today or your high school had a pretty good program, right? We did, yeah. We were state champs my sophomore year and then second place my junior year. And we did well my freshman year as well.

So we had a good team. And your sister still run? No, she doesn't. She was never a runner. She did like soccer and basketball and tennis. Parents still together? Yep. Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah, it's great. When you look back on you know you're still at the beginning of your career really but would you like thinking back to that kid in high school you know running cross country could you have predicted or imagined that you'd be in this situation i probably imagined i'd be better yeah realistically i'm sure like when i was love the honesty of that. When I was logging miles in Wheat Ridge, I probably assumed I'd have three gold medals and a world record by now.

So it must have been a frustrating decade there. At times, probably. I think I probably got to college, and my first year I didn't handle the freedom and easy access to beer all that well. And I think probably I realigned my expectations and I've been working back to like the confidence, I guess, since then. So you're behind schedule.

Yeah, realistically. Yeah. Okay. Gonna have to make all three of these next Olympic teams, win gold medals just to impress high school Scott. Well, it's good that you're 27. Yeah. And you got a coach that believes in you yeah absolutely what would you what would you tell that youngster like that 16 year old kid

i would say i'd probably tell him make sure it's always fun and find ways to keep it fun because at certain points in college like especially that first year when i was running like garbage because i was out until 2 a.m. three times a week and you know drinking too much and eating like shit it wasn't fun because it's not that fun to wake up and like be hung over and go for a long run and I think I kind of lost sight of the fact that like this is a sport this is a game it's supposed to be fun and it took me a little while to maybe find that again so it's fun for the most part but there's got to be fun. And it took me a little while to maybe find that again. So it's fun for the most part, but there's got to be days where you're like, I don't want to get out of bed today.

Yeah. So how do you talk your way through that? know, maybe training for their first marathon and is struggling with, you know, motivation or the kind of strategies that somebody like yourself might employ to get over those humps. Yeah. I mean, I think for most people, they would say that going for a run is the best part of their day. You know, even if it's not every day, but I try to keep that in mind too. It's like, I get to do the best part of most people's day for my job. And even if there are things that I don't really like, it's part of being an adult.

It's doing aspects of your job that you don't necessarily like. And when I really think about it, it's like I got a pretty sweet gig here. The worst part of my day is doing hamstring rehab or something like that. So I guess for the average runner who's probably getting up at six, which is not something I do, or getting up early and going straight out the door and they've got all these other responsibilities. So making sure it stays as a get to instead of a have to.

Right. Sometimes easier said than done. Absolutely. Especially when you have some crazy workout looming over you. I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't want to sit here and say like, I'm some Zen Buddha who always appreciates the gratitude.

It's like, no, I have days where I don't want to do shit. I just want to like sit at home or I want to go like do something not running. But I'm trying to remember that this is a sweet thing I get to do. A little extra Andy Putacombe on those days. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

And how do you keep the Olympic dream in perspective? Because that looms so heavy, right? Like it's such a massively ambitious thing and the dream of a lifetime. And I would imagine it would be easy for it to kind of infect you in not a good way unless you're able to kind of keep it in check. Yeah, I try not to deal with it too much. That is like an end. I have gotten to this point where I got to the point where I got to in Boston because I wasn't thinking about like,

I have to win Boston, nor do I think I have to make the Olympic team I'm just going to prepare as well as I can I'm going to try to focus on doing the best I can do today on this thing and then I have faith that if I do well at the things that I need to do now the end will be there and I am willing to bet on myself that I'll be tough enough and strong enough and fit enough to accomplish things. I don't need to have some huge carrot of the Olympic rings down the road. Do you do any visualization techniques? When you're getting ready for a big race, you've been on the course at Boston, you know every turn or whatever.

Do you walk yourself through it mentally? What do you do before you line up on the starting line? And, and, you know, in that kind of sense, I let myself visualize when I'm on runs, usually like thinking about the last few miles and imagine just feeling, not imagine feeling really good, but imagine running really well. I think it's important to acknowledge that this is really going to hurt. Like it's not helpful to visualize it not hurting because it's going to hurt. Um, so I, I let myself visualize things in the race or like it, while I'm on runs, I'm imagining or I imagine the race. Yeah. Yeah. And then once I get to the line, it's really a matter of like, I mean, not letting myself write the story before I,

before it happens, you know, it's just, I just want to be where I'm at. And that's kind of what I do when I'm on the line. I try to, you know, in mindfulness, it's called like grounding usually where you just focus on your feet touching the ground. That's kind of what I do usually before races. I don't need to get hyped up. I don't need to get like out of my head or whatever.

I just want to be where I am. Right. Yeah. I think that's really important. I mean, one of the things that you hear with marathon runners or ultra distance athletes, there are moments where, you know, it's not going well and it's easy to just not just throw a pity party, but just think, well, I'm done, you know,

but to stay grounded and present with what you're doing and with experience, understanding that just because you feel lousy now, like five minutes from now, you might feel great. Like these things change. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's, um, Amy Craig had a really good quote about this. She's a wonderful marathoner, but, um, she said, I know I'm going to have good miles and I know I'm going to have bad miles and I don't know what order they're going to come in. I know I'm going to have good miles and I know I'm going to have bad miles and I don't know what order they're going to come in. And sometimes I remind myself of that. And I think another thing that happens a lot, at least to me, it's like when I'm feeling bad, when I feel like I'm having a bad

mile, if I actually check in, if I'm actually like, okay, how do I actually feel? It's really not that bad. It's probably like my mind's projection that I'm supposed to be feeling bad. So being present and like actually checking in with how your legs feel can make you feel better. That's interesting. Yeah. Distinguishing between how you actually feel and the story that you're telling yourself about how you feel, which is probably the worst, right?

Worse than you actually feel. Like in Boston, for example, like we got through the halfway mark and I think I was 104.40. And the fastest I've ever come through the half marathon and i think i was 104 40 and the fastest i ever come through the half marathon mark in a marathon was like 106 12 or something like that and so i think my mind was like oh like oh shit you're in uncharted territory here like we're 90 seconds under pace and they were like you better they're telling my legs like you better slow down when i actually felt what my legs felt and like checked in with my body it's like no like i'm fine i'm okay like this i just am expecting to hurt and you have to kind of i'm expecting to feel shitty i'm expecting that this is too fast but in actuality i'm not feeling

that bad yeah and pretty close to even splitting it yeah a negative split at boston did you are you negative split yeah i was 104 40 104 29 wow which is hard because second half has super hard but the best more marathon performances are pretty even right in terms of first and first and back half yeah i mean in terms of speed yeah if you're gonna run um like the fastest you could run you would want it to be even, but the best performances in terms of like winning races are almost all negative split. Cause you generally, especially at races like Boston, New York and Chicago, like there are big moves at the end where people will run, be running, having really, really fast miles to break the race open. What do you think about,

uh, Quinn Jorgensen's, uh, proclamation about making the Olympic team, you know, I had a podcast recently. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a bold statement. And one of the things I asked her was like, you know, what was that like after saying, you know, like, okay, you win the gold medal in triathlon, you retire, and then you make this announcement and then you show up at bowerman like how how'd that go right like how are you received and it seems like people were happy to receive her by her account but i'm interested in how the marathon world is kind of what the reception is yeah um so i guess when i first heard she said okay i'm gonna go win the gold medal i was kind of like

yeah all right bullshit quinn like come on like let's be real here. Let's be, I kind of thought it was like too brash and too, um, it was too much, I think was my initial reaction. And then I was like, well, like, why do I think that? Like, she's has every right to have whatever goal she wants to have. And I think it's great that she's sharing it like I think my I should have taken a second before I was like before in my head I was like nah fuck that that's a that's a stupid thing to say because in real reality it's like I kind of admire I admire her for a having the highest goal as possible and be being open and honest right like being afraid to just say that yeah knowing that there's gonna be some people

that aren't gonna receive it so well. Yeah, like I should have taken a beat and been like, well, good on her. But I admit that I didn't at first. Yeah, well, it'll be exciting to watch. Yeah, I hope she's, I know she has had some injury issues. I hope she's healthy and ready to go on the line.

I think she's making her way back. So is it trials? Are the women and the men running like the same weekend or how does that work? Yeah, we'll run on the same day. On the same day. We actually just got an email about this. I think it's the current plan right now.

The men will start at 12.03 on February 29th. The women will start 20 minutes later so that we're not lapping them. And it'll be three 8-mile loops and then a 2.2-mile stretch out of the loop to finish. Wow. So on the course at the same time. Yeah.

That'll be interesting. The USATF has assured us that we shouldn't be, the men shouldn't be lapping women until the third lap and it should be spread out enough where it won't be trying the men shouldn't be lapping women until the third lap and it should be spread out enough where it won't be like trying to navigate huge groups. And I think the top women will be probably catching the top men or the, sorry, the, the stragglers on the men's side at some point as well. Cause at the moment, I think like 700 people have qualified for the trials. So it'll be a huge event huge event um and is it strictly like for second

or third or are there other like weird things that happen you know as you see in other sports yeah so for the u.s it was so convoluted super super convoluted until maybe like five weeks ago where there was like an a standard and then there was a point system and it was going to be it was like what's going on it's like not even people was a point system, and it was going to be... What's going on? Not even people in the sport could explain how it was going to work. And luckily, the USATF lobbied the IAAF, which is the governing body of sports, the sport, to make the Olympic trials a gold label event.

And what that means shortcut is that the top three across the line will make the team they will achieve the standard and be eligible for the Olympics and the USATF will just have to submit their names the top three will go from the trials and that's it like if somebody else two weeks later at some other marathon run some crazy time or somebody gets injured there's's a period of that. I mean, that's the way it's been done in swimming forever. Like, it's just very, like, there's no other,

it's just your first or second, or that's it. Yeah, and I think there's some wiggle room with injuries. You can kind of, before a certain date. But yeah, it's been like that for the marathon for a really long time. The standards were slow enough where if you won the Olympic trials or you were top three at the Olympic trials,

you had the standard. And that was awesome. It made for great events and just a really cool, dramatic thing. There was finality. And it was kind of in danger for a little while. But luckily, that's not the case. Yeah.

So you make the team. It's also, I feel like the timing is really good too. Like it gives you plenty of time to take a break and then build back up. Yeah. In swimming, it's like perilously close to the actual game. So it's always this weird science experiment of like, do you train hard or you maintain? But here, being at end of February, like you have a nice block after that yeah and on the track it's more similar to swimming where the Olympic trials will be in the summer and then the people who make the team will go to the

Olympics later that summer so right um I think for shorter distances that's probably good because you don't have to like end your season necessarily even even if the race is a 10 K, like you're probably pretty beat up and maybe you feel bad for a few days, but you can come back and still be fit with a marathon. That's not really an option. Like you couldn't, they couldn't have the marathon in like may or even, you know, later like July,

like four weeks later, you can't run another marathon. It would be awful. It'd be terrible. So it kind of, you know, it's a little bit event specific in that regard. Right. All right. We got to wind this down in would be terrible. Yeah. So it kind of, you know, it's a little bit event specific in that regard. Right.

All right. We got to wind this down in a minute here. Okay. But one of the things I wanted to give you the opportunity to talk about is just, you know, now that, like, you're in the media a little bit more, like, is there anything that you think people get wrong about you? Or is there a narrative out there that you feel like they don't understand what i'm trying to do here like i just want to give you the opportunity to like correct the record if there's anything out there where you think people are misunderstanding you or marathon running in general for that matter yeah i mean i think we talked about the difference between

like what good is and what fast is and how those aren't necessarily 100% the same thing. That's kind of been the thing I've probably gotten the most shit for online. People chastising my opinion that good can be finishing high and not just running fast. Like harkening back to some imaginary golden age of American marathon running that actually didn't exist. Exactly. That's 100% correct. Yeah. If somebody wants to go through the history books and show me an era where people were running sub 210 every single time out, I would be happy to hear about it. I don't think it exists. Other than that, I think I've done a pretty good job of telling my own story and communicating the messages that I personally wanted to communicate.

And so I've just done it myself as opposed to letting other people get it wrong. But yeah. The only thing I would say, and I know this is going to be a shock to a lot of people, is I don't actually only eat burritos. I know we didn't talk a ton about burritos, but I've got this reputation online

for eating a lot of burritos. You created that narrative. Absolutely i did um but i think some people think that's the only thing i eat and i would like to go on the record as saying i only mostly eat burritos there are other aspects only mostly or you mostly only um the main food how many burritos a week? I mean, on a good week, like six. Yeah. On a bad week. One, two. I'm with you.

I probably eat that many burritos. Yeah. Home burritos. They're all perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have a couple of burrito recommendations while you're in LA. Absolutely.

Are you going to be, where are you guys going after this? Are you going to be on the West side? I think we're going back towards Ontario and then LAX. Oh, by LAX? Yeah. So hit Holy Guacamole on Main Street in Santa Monica. That's my favorite. Every time I go to LAX or I fly into LAX and I'm making my way back home,

I always drop in there. Holy Guacamole. It's just a little hole-in-the-wall place, but they make a good – it's pretty good. Does the menu have pictures? No. Oh, okay. I like the menu with the pictures. And I like – I mean, there's a lot of just the old-school food trucks. pictures no oh okay i like the menu of the pictures yeah and i like you know i mean i'll

i like there's a lot of like just the the old school food trucks not the fancy food trucks but like the ones that park at construction sites and stuff like that that's clutch really good absolutely yeah um yeah so i guess i had to get the burrito plug in there sorry rich and uh all right final question what's the movie you're you're most anticipating right now let's see like that's coming out yeah um man i i'm upset that i don't remember the name what's the name of the movie that's coming out the leno waythroat sunny sunny and something it's got michael kiwanuka kit oh i don't think that's that's his name not named michael kiwanuka michael he was in Widows and he was in Get Out. Oh, right.

Yeah. And then I don't know the woman. I'm interested to see that one. And I just watched, this summer has been a good movie summer. We had Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. We had Hobbs and Shaw and we had John Wick 3. So I had a really good summer of movies. I have a good John Wick 3 story.

I'll tell you after the podcast. Okay, perfect. Absolutely. All right. Cool. Well, I'm so excited for Olympic trials. I can't wait to watch you, and I'm cheering for you. You're one of the good guys, man. And I'm excited to see what you're going to do. It's super exciting. So best of luck to you. Thank you so much, Rich. And thanks for having me. Yeah. And once you make the Olympic team and go to Tokyo and all that, come back and tell us about it, will you?

Sounds good. I'll just try to live up to the image I had of myself in high school. Now we can come talk about it. Yes, please do that. In the meantime, everybody check out Inside a Marathon. It's not on Amazon, right? Like you gotta get it through your website.

Yeah, through the website. ScottFaubel.com. We should have. Why don't you get it up on Amazon? Well, because they would make us charge like $40 for it. Okay. But we want to, we're doing it through our own website, Inside a Marathon, second edition should be coming out soon.

I don't know when this podcast will drop. Hopefully we'll have the book out by then, and we'll have an e-version as well. Oh, cool. Awesome. Audiobook? Audiobook. No, not an audiobook.

I'm not doing that. That's too long. Unless we can get Morgan Freeman to read it. I don't want to do it. Well, now that you're a podcaster. That's true. We could do it. You should do that.

Yeah. You could bring in like guest people to like mimic your voice. One person. If we get, there's like 22 chapters. If 22 people volunteer, you can all read one chapter. That's fine with me. All right. You should do that.

Okay. In the meantime, scottfauble.com uh at s fobs on instagram yep and at scott fobs on twitter right cool man thanks brother thank you peace peace good luck thanks man very cool good dude that's got like said, somebody that you want to root for, that you want to see prevail. So let's do this. Let's send a rounding roar of support to Scott, who I imagine right now is probably pretty deep in the throes of heavy training at the moment, given that Olympic trials are, I think about 11 or 12 weeks away at this point by hitting him up on the socials. You can find him on Twitter at Scott Fobbs, F-A-U-B-S. And on Instagram, he is at S Fobbs. You can learn even more about him at scottfobble.com.

And of course, in the show notes on the episode page on my website. And don't forget to pick up a copy of his book with his coach, Ben Rosario, Inside a Marathon. It's pretty great, especially if marathon running lands on your 2020 list of New Year's resolutions, or as a great gift, I might add. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on the program on Apple Podcasts. That really helps new people discover the show, which is super important. Tell your friends about your favorite episode, share the show on social media.

Hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Spotify, Google, wherever you listen to this. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. Much love and appreciation for my team who helps put on this show every week. I do not do this alone. Jason Camiello for audio engineering,

production, show notes, interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin for videoing the program, editing it, creating all the beautiful short clips. Jessica Miranda for her graphics wizardry. Allie Rogers for her beautiful portraits. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Anna Lemma. Appreciate the love you guys.

I will see you back here in a couple of days with another great episode with the one and the only Srimati, my wife, Julie Pyatt. And until then, remember, it's not complicated, people. Get outside, run, move, and remember, mood follows action. Peace, bless, namaste Thank you.