The Rich Roll Podcast - Breaking the Shackles of Apartheid in Medicine

Episode Date: February 17, 2014

We need more doctors in the world like Dr. Frank Lipman. Western medicine is astounding when it comes to treating acute, isolated conditions — a catastrophic injury, an arterial blockage or a serious infection, for example. But how does it fare when it comes to preventing disease, particularly chronic illnesses like diabetes, heart disease, obesity and countless other conditions sweeping the globe like a modern day plague? Well, not so well. On this I think we can all agree. On that note, when was the last time your doctor focused his inquiry on things like increasing energy levels and general vitality, elevating mood, sustaining optimal body weight, or enhancing mental acuity and focus? Not recently I would imagine, if ever. He or she might advise you to reduce the stress in your life, “eat better” and/or “start taking care of yourself” — but these proclamations are rarely combined with an actual specific protocol to implement. And that, my friends is a shame. Dr. Lipman is working to break this paradigm. Early in his medical career, he began to see that the polarization between western modalities and other healing philosophies merely negated positive attributes of both. He began to see that true healing lay in a blend between the two. He now practices his unique method of what he calls “Good Medicine”, which merges the best of the west with many traditions more eastern or alternative in origin — a holistic form of medicine that is truly unique and integrative in its approach to patients. It's for this reason he has become the go-to, in-demand doctor for the celebrated — people like Donna Karan, Kevin Bacon, Gwenyth Paltrow, Peter Sarsgaard & Maggie Gyllenhaal. If pharmaceuticals are truly in order to rectify an acute medical issue, he is happy to prescribe. But disease management isn't what gets him out of bed every morning excited about life. Instead, it's taking the time to evaluate each patient as a complex web of interdependent systems, with a keen lens focused on disease prevention. The idea is to optimize the quality of his patients' lives through implementing techniques such as acupuncture; Chinese, herbal & functional medicine; nutrition; biofeedback; meditation; and yoga. When was the last time your doctor prescribed you to go to yoga? It's never happened to me, and I live in LA. In short, Dr. Lipman's ultimate goal for all his patients is simple: sustained, long-term, optimal wellness. Sustained, long-term, optimal wellness. If you know me, then you know I'm all about this subject. So it was an honor and a treat to sit down with Dr. Lipman in his office at Eleven Eleven Wellness Center in the Flatiron District of Manhattan — with its soothing meditation retreat / yoga studio vibe — where he generously offered up his perspective on medicine & the medical profession, nutrition & food allergies, and the types of things we can and should all focus on more intently if we want to maximize our “wellness” in the truest sense of this all-too often over-hyped word. I hope you enjoy the enlightening conversation. Leave a comment below and let me know what you think. And don't forget to give Tyler — my trusty podcast producer and stepson — a nice shoutout for all his hard work not just putting today's show together, but for all his amazing original music compositions that accompany the interview. Thanks Ty!Enjoy! Rich

Welcome to Episode 72 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Dr. Frank Lipman. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome back. If you're tuning in again, if you're new, Welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll. I'm your host. This is the Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome back. If you're tuning in again, if you're new, welcome to the show. Thanks for stopping by. There's a lot of podcasts out there. I realize that you have many choices at your disposal, and I appreciate you taking a chance on me. So what do we do here? Well, each week I bring to you the best, the brightest, the most forward-thinking, Each week I bring to you the best, the brightest, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health, wellness, fitness, diet, nutrition, athletics, entrepreneurism, creativity, spirituality, yoga, meditation, you name it.

We cast a wide net. People that are interesting to me, that are leading amazing lives and are of service to other people, helping other people to improve their condition. And the idea is to provide you with a ton of information so that you can take what resonates with you, incorporate it into your life, and unlock and unleash your best, most authentic self. That is my simple goal here. This week, I'm in New York. Been having a blast. I came out here for a corporate speaking gig. That's what brought me out here. But took the opportunity to stay a couple days longer

and sit down with a bunch of interesting people and bang out some podcast guests. So I'm really excited to be able to share with you over the next couple of weeks, some of the amazing conversations that I've had with, uh, new guests, new people. It's awesome. It's been really cool. And it's been fun to be here. I always love coming to New York city, uh, the energy vitality, you just can't get it anywhere else. And it definitely is like a reboot for my system. It recharges me and gives me a sense of, I don't know, renewal,

excitement. And it's been cool. We got a big snowstorm here. I've been able to eat at a bunch of awesome restaurants, plant-based restaurants, Candle 79, always my favorite, Angelica Kitchen I'm going to tonight, Cafe Blossom. What else? Juice Press, of course. It's amazing to see how many healthy restaurants are cropping up all over the place, all over New York City. Essentially, there's a cold press juice place almost on almost every corner here, which was not the case not too many years ago. So I love it. I'm here with Tyler, my podcast producer, my son, who's been helping me out. And he actually even got to play a music gig at Sidewalk Cafe on the Lower East Side on Monday night. They have a legendary open mic night.

It has launched many a musical career. It's a pretty cool room. And Tyler was able to step in and play a couple songs for a live audience in his first trip to New York, which was really super cool. So thanks, Mishka, former podcast guest, Mishka Shibali, for helping hook that up. It was awesome. And we've been having a great time. And one of the reasons we've been having such a good time is I got to sit down with Dr. Frank Lippman, today's guest on the show. So who is Frank Lippman? Well, if you're in New York, you've probably heard of him. He gets a lot of press out here. There was recently a profile on him in the New York Times. I'll put a link up to that in the show notes. But

he is quite a prominent wellness warrior out here, an internationally renowned doctor in the field of integrative medicine. So what is integrative medicine? Well, basically, that is a merging of East and West. He is, he is trained in Western medicine practices. He's a doctor, he's an MD. But what makes him unique and special is the way that he, uh, has merged his practice, uh, by, uh, integrating, uh, techniques from more Eastern practices. I guess you could say things like meditation, acupuncture, acupuncture, acupuncture, uh, homeotherapy, things like that, that we talk about today. Um, and he's been doing this for about 20 years.

Uh, a couple of years ago, I think 2010, he opened up his wellness center, which is called 1111. It's in the Flatiron District of New York. But he's been practicing this particular sort of customized brand of medicine for like 20 years. I mean, long before it was hip and cool and sort of a zeitgeist thing. And he's helped thousands of people reclaim their vitality and improve their lives over the years. His focus is on sustainable wellness, which I love. I'm all about that. I'm not about the quick fix or shedding five pounds or kind of the, I don't know, the bio hack or the life hack. kind of the, I don't know, the biohack or the life hack. Like I'm looking at it from a perspective of permanent lifestyle alteration to kind of set you on a new trajectory for a healthier life. And,

and, you know, he shares that perspective. He offers his patients this customizable, customizable blend of Western medicine, again, with like acupuncture, nutritional counseling, medicine, again, with like acupuncture, nutritional counseling, vitamins and supplements, which he believes in, herbs, relaxation techniques, physical therapy, body work. I mean, he doesn't love body work, right? And what's cool is when you go to his office, it's not like stepping into a doctor's office. It's more like stepping into, I don't know, a meditation temple or a Kundalini yoga studio. You know, the elevator opens and you're in this suite with, you know, beautiful hardwood floors and it has this very warm, inviting feeling to it. And you're immediately greeted by the office dog, Coconut. So, I mean, I'm telling you, it's unlike any other doctor's office that

I've ever been in. And this is what doctor's offices should be like. They should make the patients feel warm and at home and, you know, feel like they're going to be taken care of, that they're going to be listened to and that they're going to be in good hands. And in many ways, you know, Frank really is a doctor for the modern age, you know, the internet age. I mean, this is he, you know, he gave a TED talk, he blogs for the Huffington Post, he writes on his own blog, he makes videos, you know, he has his own sort of, you know, personal brand behind what he does. But he's very interested in connecting with people in different ways outside of, you know, office hours. And that's what I love about him. He's super passionate about his

message and he's really busy. So it was an honor and a privilege to sit down with a guy. I mean, this is a guy who's, you know, has patients like, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and Maggie Gyllenhaal and Peter Sarsgaard. And like, this is, you know, this is a guy who doesn't have a lot of free time. And so it was, it was amazing to be able to grab him and get a quiet moment with him, um, to talk with him. So, uh, our conversation is amazing, inspiring. Uh, we talk about all these subjects, uh, over the course of, I don't know, hour and 15 minutes or whatever it is. Frank has also written two books, which I think you should check out. His first one is called Revive, Stop Feeling Spent and Start Living Again.

And the second one is called Total Renewal, Seven Key Steps to Resilience, Vitality, and Long-Term Health. The funny thing was, too, when our interview was over, uh, he went to his bookshelf and he grabbed a handful of CDs and handed them to Tyler. So basically every year he puts together like a mixtape and he makes a CD out of it and he gives it to his friends and his patients. And, and I'm going to share the artwork for these CDs on the blog. So check it out there, but they're hilarious. They're like, I'll just read you a few of these ones called lip.

Mo's upbeat mix for 2011 dance locally. Listen globally. Lip. Mo's Boogaloo upbeat mix, 2010, 19 international booty shakers. Like he's got these crazy artwork on these, on these insane mixtape CDs that he gives out.

And I'm thinking, like, what doctor does that? Like, that's awesome. So cool. Anyway, I love talking to him, and I hope that you enjoy our conversation. If you want to check out his books, and also if you want to support the podcast, the best way to do that, other than telling a friend, which is first and foremost in this free content, which will always be free, spread the word, tell a friend. Check out the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com. If you click on that when you're going to buy something on Amazon, go to that first, click that, get whatever you're going to get on Amazon.

First, click that, get whatever you're going to get on Amazon. Does not cost you a penny extra. And Amazon kicks us a little bit of loose change our way, which helps pay the bills for the podcast. So we appreciate everybody who's been doing that. And it was pointed out to me that some people might be concerned about privacy. Am I able to see what your purchases are? And no, I'm not. I have no idea what you guys are buying.

I don't have access to that kind of information. All I know is I get, there's a number, and they wire me a little bit of money every month, and that's it. So if you're concerned about me having any knowledge about what your Amazon purchases are when you use the Amazon banner ad, I can put your mind at ease about that. There's nothing to be concerned there for. So anyway, yes, Amazon banner ad. Thanks so much for you guys. I've been using it. We have a donate button at riskroll.com for people that want to go the extra mile and show their support.

Again, the show's free. You're not obligated to do that that's only if it feels right to you but we appreciate everybody who has uh who has done that you can throw us a little loose change on a one-time basis weekly monthly you know whatever you want but anyway thank you guys everybody who's been doing that and again it's been a great week in new york i'm going to be bringing tons of amazing interviews to you guys over the next couple of weeks, which is feels good having a little fresh air on the podcast. And I wanted to thank everybody who, uh, gave such great feedback on last week's episode with Adam Scully power. That was definitely a tear jerker, uh, a very inspirational story. And, um, I'm glad you guys enjoyed it. Uh, so looking to, looking to share more kind of every man's stories like Adam's coming up over the podcast

because those seem to really hit a chord and people enjoy that. So anyway, without further ado, you guys, let's get into the interview. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Frank Littman. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment.

And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online

support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you

decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. there's a certain poetry in the the sort of ethos behind your clinic and this idea that before there can be rebirth or renewal there must be destruction yes and this sort of is how you came up with the name 1111 for your center well maybe I'll burst your bubble straight away. I came up with the name because at the time I was a little bit obsessed with this whole 11-11.

This was 1991, and the idea that there'd be a shift in consciousness. I got caught up in this whole 11-11, the shift in consciousness, and that's how the name came about. It was sort of a spur-of-the-moment thing. Right, but it's Mayan in origin, right? Which means doom before the rebirth.

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, it is. Absolutely, yes. It's sort of like the Hindu goddess Kali, the goddess of destruction, before there can be a rebirth. Okay, right. I've never thought of it that way.

We must tear it down first and create the foundation. Thank you. Okay, it's the first time I've seen it in that perspective. But, yeah, that's true. That's exactly the way I feel about the medical system. So, yeah, so tell me a little bit about what you do here. So I am trained in Western medicine. I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor.

I was a doctor anyway in a past life. And what I realized early on is in Western medicine, we're really great at treating acute medical emergencies, acute surgical emergencies if someone's acutely ill. And that's the way we get trained at medical school. You get trained to treat heart attacks and take out appendices and treat acute pneumonia. But when I went into practice after my training,

people started coming to me with symptoms that they were feeling tired and they couldn't poop and their digestion was off and they were stressed out. And I had no tools in Western medicine to help these people. So any doctor, if they're really honest with themselves, realizes early on that we don't really have any tools to help most of the problems that people come to them with. Right, it's more diagnose and prescribe if there's something that you can. Yeah, I mean our tools are medicine or surgery it's drugs or surgery we don't really have anything

else so um you know i grew up in in south africa and um the tribe that i was moving with my friends and the people i was friendly with we were doing quite a bit of drugs in those days. We got the 60s in the 70s in South Africa. I saw Waiting for Sugar, man. Right. Okay, so Sugar was my closest friend growing up. Oh, is that right? Right.

So Sugar, who was my closest friend, I think maybe smoking a lot of pot may have opened me up and these type of people were interested in alternatives. So from an early on, I sort of started thinking there must be other ways. But this is before you even went to medical school? No, this is during and after medical school.

This is in the late 70s. Gotcha. In South Africa. In South Africa. In South Africa. And in the practice that I worked with in South Africa, it was a general practice. This was after my training. And the doctor used to see all the lefties and all the artists. And these people were coming into the office and they were telling me,

oh, they went to the homeopath and he gave me this and my stomach is better. Or they went to the acupuncturist and there was one acupuncturist in Johannesburg and their back was better. And I started thinking to myself that this is interesting. These are problems that I can't help and these people are going to these quacks and they're getting better. I better start checking it out. And that was sort of my

first real exposure I mean I had been exposed to traditional African medicine and also noticed that sometimes that helped so my mind started was being you know exploded open by all these factors you know the drugs that we were doing and the exposure I had to these alternatives. So it was sort of just common sense for me to start exploring these things. So this is late 70s, 1980. I started studying homeopathy because there was a strong homeopathic tradition in South Africa at the time because it was an English colony. In England, homeopathy was quite big, and we got that tradition. So I started studying homeopathy and started doing Tai Chi.

And in 1983, my wife and I just started, we just didn't want to live under apartheid anymore, and we decided to leave. And the doctor I was working with gave me a gift to go and it was the Barefoot Doctors Manual, which is this interesting book on what the Chinese did in the rural areas. They used to train these barefoot doctors to go and treat them there. And he gave me this book. He said, go study acupuncture, which was meaningless to me at the time. And this is relatively, I mean, it's more than progressive at the time. Yeah, at the time.

This is not happening like it is to the extent that it is now. No, no, no. This is like 30-odd years ago. This was pretty radical at the time. But for me, I was on such a journey. I knew it was right, so it wasn't even a question. It was the same thing. I always give this comparison.

Growing up in South Africa, when you grow up in South Africa during apartheid, you know it's a rotten system and you know it's wrong. And you're looking around and everyone's sort of living like normally as if nothing's happening. And I felt exactly the same way about the medical system, that it was so obvious there's got to be a better way. And there obviously is a better way because these people are getting better, but no one's acknowledging it. So it was in a way easier for me because I knew apartheid was wrong, and I knew that the Western medical model was limited as well. But coming to the United States, did you have an expectation that you would be welcomed for this more progressive ideas about treating patients? Well, no. What happened was

when I came to the United States, I got a job in the South Bronx because they sponsored me for a green card. And everyone said, well, you've got to do internal medicine, don't do family medicine. So I got this job, they sponsored me for a green card and here I'm in this residency doing something that I wasn't particularly interested in and after a week or two I came home and I said to my wife I don't know if I can be a doctor here because even the part of western medicine that I enjoyed in South Africa taking a good history examining a patient really getting to know a patient that the relationship was important because in South Africa, we couldn't do all these expensive tests. And here I come to the States and in the residency program, you had to take a quick history.

You draw the bloods. You go study what the story is and you look at the results and you present it the next day to the professor. And there was nothing about taking a good history, spending time with the patient. I said to my wife, you know, the things that I actually enjoy with patients, developing relationships with people, it's just not happening. I don't want to be a doctor here. Right. It's just a numbers game. You got to churn through so many people. Yeah. And some hard cases, I would imagine, in the Bronx, a lot of addiction cases. Yeah.

In those days, that was crack and heroin were epidemic. So you're seeing really sick people. And I'd heard about this acupuncture clinic, which was actually attached to the hospital where they did drug detox. And I'd actually been taken there on a tour. When I first came to the hospital, there was a Hispanic woman said, you know, we got talking, we got friendly. And she said, well, let me take you on a tour

of the South Bronx to places you as a white boy are never going to see. And she took me on this little tour of this burnt out area. And one of the places we stopped was this acupuncture clinic. And it was pretty mind-blowing so um i thought okay you're remembering the words of your mentor back in south africa exactly so everything you know everything was falling into place so i'll walk over you know one day after a couple of weeks during my residency and i walk into this burnt out building again and i and you walk into this building and you see about 40 or 50 heroin addicts sitting quietly with needles in their ears and I went oh this is really interesting these are the same patients

that are pulling out IVs in the war they were really difficult to deal with and here they're sitting really quietly so I thought I've got to explain i've got to check this out so i went and i spoke to the guy who ran the clinic mike smith i said mike you know this is a story i'm from south africa yada yada and he was intrigued that i was from south africa because you want to know more about south africa and we got sort of talking and he said to me look you can come hang out here whenever you want you You know, you can come learn acupuncture. I know you're doing your residency, but feel free to come here. And I started going there more and more often. So I started living these two lives.

One at the hospital where I was seeing these acutely ill patients and Western medicine was fantastic. And then at the other place I was seeing these acupuncture patients and patients medicine was fantastic and then at the other place i was seeing these acupuncture patients and patients were coming in with different problems and you sort of could see it was pretty easy to see that the one worked really well for the one type of problem and the other worked really well for the other type of problem and it was obvious to me that the best medicine would be a combination of the two if If someone's really sick, if they need surgery, if they need acute intervention, the ICU, Western medicine is great. But if they have some chronic

problem, or they have back pain, or they're tired, the acupuncture clinic and Chinese medicine was better. So I saw early on, this is like 1984, that obviously the best medicine is going to be some type of combination of the two. Right. So this is planting the seed. And where does that lead you after your residency? So after my residency, well, during my residency, I spent more and more time at the acupuncture clinic. And by the time I finished my residency, I'd actually got my 300 hours, which I needed as a doctor to practice acupuncture in New York. So I knew I wanted to do something holistic. So I spent a little bit more time at the acupuncture clinic and I got a job on the Lower East Side at this very interesting community clinic that was interested in starting

acupuncture and alternative stuff. So I got a job there and I started doing some acupuncture, working as a doctor but also doing acupuncture and using Chinese herbs and also working at the acupuncture clinic where I was getting more experience with acupuncture. And at this clinic, the guy, Paul Ramos, who has now died, was so ahead of his time. I mean, he was bringing this stuff to the Hispanic community on the Lower East Side. I mean, it was pretty wild.

Yeah. I mean, that was a jungle back then. Yeah. And he was a very cool guy. And he sort of knew, you know, the direction. And he brought me in. He brought a nutritionist in. And I got friendly with this nutritionist, Susan Luck, who sort of became like a mentor to me.

And she told me about Jeff Bland. And if anyone doesn't know who Jeff Bland is, Jeff Bland is the father of functional medicine. So in 1988, because at my residency I did 84 to 87, and then I started working at Patansas in 87. And then Susan introduced me to Jeff Bland. And Jeff was going around the country in those days already lecturing whoever would listen to him so I sort of I met Jeff Bland in 1988 and Jeff was articulating exactly what I was feeling because here I was learning about Chinese medicine and they were talking about qi and energy and and this language that just didn't make sense from a Western perspective.

It was a completely different language. And Jeff had put it all together. He was talking Chinese medicine, but he was talking from a physiology perspective and biochemistry. So it sort of made sense to me. It was like such an aha experience to listen to Jeff talking because he was using the philosophy of creating balance and improving function of Chinese medicine but he was talking about physiology

and biochemistry and everything that I'd learned in western medicine so there's a perfect combination of the two couching it in a vernacular that's translatable to sort of the western logical mind and approach so exactly back at that time you know what was the typical case that you would see of somebody coming in to this particular clinic in the lower east side and you know what would the treatment protocol be what were the results that you were seeing well what was interesting was um at that stage the aids epidemic was was uh was a major epidemic. And I very soon got the name in the HIV community that you could actually get acupuncture. And we started teaching Qigong, and we started doing this interesting stuff.

I mean, we were all learning at the time. But because the clinic took Medicaid, we started getting a lot of that. The word got out that on could get on your Medicaid, you could go get acupuncture and herbs and nutrition therapy at this Patansas Health Unit. So very quickly, I developed this huge AIDS community of patients coming to see me. So I'd say most of the patients were HIV patients

coming with all various things. But, I mean, I think somehow in that community, because they were sort of not used to getting drugs all the time in and were happy not to get drugs and, you know, talk about their diet or use some herbs or some supplements. And so what kind of relief were you able to provide? Well, I think in the, I mean, it's hard to say. I think in the, you know, the beauty of acupuncture is most people are going to feel a difference quite soon. I think my practice and our practice in general in those days wasn't particularly sophisticated. We were sort of using a Western, you know, we were using Chinese medicine,

but the way I was working there is I was still thinking like a Western doctor and instead of drugs, I'd use herbs. So instead of something for indigestion, I'd use some herbs for it. So it was a different way. It hadn't been ingrained into me. The Chinese way hadn't been ingrained into me in those days to actually look for the underlying imbalance or what the underlying cause was.

I mean, I'd sort of learned that, but it wasn't part of my being, which is completely different now. I mean, the more you do it, you sort of get a sense of what's really good medicine. In those days, I was sort of practicing from a Western perspective and using sort of herbs or something to treat the way I was thinking, which is unfortunately what a lot of doctors still do. I mean, I don't think until they really get it in them that it's not about just giving a name to something and treating the name.

It's what's really going on underneath. I think Jeff Bland's done a wonderful job of really training doctors to reprogram the way they think and to really look for the underlying causes. You mean in a true sort of preventative medicine holistic sense? Yeah, I think it goes way beyond preventive. I think it's take an example. If an asthmatic patient, let's take heartburn because more people probably have heartburn. Someone comes in with heartburn. One way of treating it is saying, okay, you got heartburn,

and here's some supplements that are going to help your heartburn. So instead of taking your Nexium, you take the aloe vera or the deglycinated licorice, which is fine. I mean, it's better to do that than to take the drug. The other way is saying, why is that person getting heartburn? What is the underlying problem? Is that there's too much acid? There's too little acid, which can cause heartburn? Is there imbalance of the good and the underlying problem? Is that there's too much acid, there's too little acid, which can

cause heartburn? Is the imbalance of the good and the bad bacteria? Are certain foods triggering this problem? So you look at all the possible underlying issues that you need to address, rather than just treating the symptoms. I mean, to fast forward to kind of, you know, taking a bird's eye view of wellness today, the medical profession right now, I mean, to fast forward to kind of taking a bird's eye view of wellness today in the medical profession right now, I mean, we are in this bizarre kind of mashup situation where we've never been more sick as a society. Heart disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer, the statistics are insane. Ridiculous. And yet at the same time, we've never been more fascinated or intrigued by wellness. I mean, wellness is really, you know, at the advent,

it's very much a zeitgeist thing in a way that maybe you might have not even predicted, you know, 20 years ago when you started this. So it's a really great time for the message that you're putting out there. And yet there seems to be this disconnect between what's actually going on with the typical american and you know what's going on on mindbodygreen.com or right at 11 11 well i have a

very i've been thinking about this a lot more and more as i get older um you know your your whole in the old days um i was so like I was so passionate about, you know, we're going to do this and we've got to change this and yada, yada. Now that as I get older, I start sort of trying to think about, you know, the perspective changes in terms of why did this actually happen. In those days, I wasn't thinking of why it's happening. I just wanted, I saw it as wrong and I wanted to change it. That's taking that Chinese medicine approach to a sociological problem.

And I think I know why. What happened, if you look at pictures of the 50s and 60s, part of why I was attracted to America was the hippies, to be quite honest, because, as I said, we got the hippies. And that was quite an attraction, you know, why I wanted to come to America. It was, you know, Frank Zappa and all that music and that culture sort of was quite attractive to me. If you look at those pictures, most of those people were skinny. This was the 60s and 50s.

I mean, no close. Most people were skinny. And I've looked at pictures of people in the 50s. People were skinny. No one was talking about diet then either and then in the 60s we got into this thing and i mean i've started reading more and more about it this whole low fat this this whole concept of what foods you know certain foods are bad and certain foods are good and the food industry started proliferating and producing all this junk food.

And we started getting these experts telling us to eat in a certain way. And it's only really since the 60s that we've had this major issue with diabetes and heart disease. And it was always around a little bit, but it's much, much worse now. And if you look at even in South Africa, the same thing happened as we started putting that junk food and that crappy food into the into the local cultures most of the you know the traditional black um uh people when they lived in in the bush where they lived they ate what was around but when they came into the city they started eating our white bread and and all the white man's food

and they started developing the same diseases that the white man was getting. And so I think a lot of this has to do, and it's not really, I can't say this is a conspiracy theory because I don't think it was done on purpose. But I think as the food industry and people started getting into ways of cheaper ways and more efficient ways of how we could feed the masses, and we had these experts saying, well, low-fat is bad and these whole grains are good, and the food industry sort of followed those principles we created this disaster we're in right and um i think from my perspective i see so many you know most people shouldn't be insulin resistant or carbohydrate sensitive but most people i see are that and and we've become that because of all the crap in our food right you just we just completely excuse me bombarding our systems with these refined sugars refined grains refined flours and all of these processed foods that just wear they wear our system out i mean that's what creates

that that sort of perpetual chronic inflammation exactly and uh persistent state of eating these high sugar refined foods burns us burns us out it creates that insulin resistance is that fair to say exactly that's exactly what happens and our bodies just can't process that stuff now some people can um but most people can't and i think you know this what i find interesting because you know as i said i've been very reflective in seeing what's happened to the culture because I've been doing this for so long. What's actually happening and which I love is you have people on the Internet like you who aren't the authorities actually talking about certain ways to eat and healthier ways of eating. So this information is actually coming through the Internet.

It's not coming from above. It's not coming from authorities. It's not coming from the government. It's not coming from the doctors or the people who should know this stuff. It's coming actually from the people. And there's this huge movement, whether it's MindBodyGreen or what you're doing or the paleo movement. huge movement whether it's mind body green or or what you're doing or the paleo movement it's just there's these grassroots movement coming from people who experimenting with who who's saying

obviously something's wrong they're changing their diets they're feeling much better and they're going on the internet saying wow look i did this i feel much better yeah without anything there's nothing to gain you know that people are just sharing their experience authentically. I love it. And that creates a credibility that you don't get when you watch an advertisement, right? So there's that combined with I think there's a real appetite and thirst for sustainable long-term solutions to diet, wellness, health.

And a reaction, you know, sort of this, the pendulum swinging backwards where people are saying, like, I don't want to live this way anymore. And, you know, I don't believe all the hype about the latest diet fad that's coming down the pike, because I've seen it before. We all know where that leads. It's not working. So what is going to actually work? Right. Right? So it's fascinating. I mean, I love it. I mean, it's really fascinating for me to watch this whole thing blooming. Well, it's so amazing because you've been doing this forever. And now, like, there couldn't be more interest in what you're doing.

Right. I mean, you could not have predicted this level of excitement about this, something you've been passionate about your whole life. Right. And what I, yeah yeah it's fantastic and what i love about it's actually coming from the bottom up it's coming from the people the doctors still don't get it i mean it's interesting that what does it take for the medical to the medical system to realize that there's something wrong with the system i mean what does it take i i don't know i mean you, that was one of my questions that I jotted down was, what does a typical conversation look like when you're speaking with a traditional

Western doctor who's interested in what you're doing? I mean, is there sort of curiosity? Is there resistance? All the above. I think there's not enough curiosity. I mean, I still can't get over the fact when we have patients who come in, let's say, with rheumatoid arthritis, and they change their diet, and they get better, and they go back to their doctor, and they tell their doctor what they've done, that the doctor isn't even interested in finding out what he did. They'd rather just push these. I mean, there's so many toxic drugs out there. they just push these i mean there's so many toxic drugs out there so so um i think for the i'm still amazed that there's not that much curiosity because more and more people are actually

getting better by doing things out of the medical system and you'd imagine that doctors would be peaked at least a little bit to see what the hell these patients are doing most aren't there is some curiosity there's more and more doctors leaning in this stuff, are becoming more interested. Part of the problem I do see a lot of the time is they're still stuck in a model that is a little bit archaic, which they can't get over the fact that their model is wonderful at acute care or emergency medicine, and it's not working

for all these chronic diseases. Now, I think someone like Jeff Bland is doing a wonderful job at educating more and more doctors, but I think it is hard for it. It took me a long time to really get it, to really get it. It took me a number of years to really understand in my being, you know, not to think the way I got brainwashed to think or to realize that that's great. You know, if someone's coming with a heart attack with chest pain, I'm not going to give them acupuncture. So once you start getting that, then it's easy.

And I think more and more doctors are starting to get that. Well, I think there has to be a to get that well i think it has to be there has to be a systemic change i mean it has to be part of the curriculum it has to be part of their training i mean you you had the impetus to seek it out on your own you had this you know wild hippie flair to you that that drew you to this but you know not necessarily everybody has that and so if it's not presented to them they can't be expected to have an understanding of how it fits in with everything else that they know about practicing medicine right and also what i you know the problem is also that a lot of the time the way it's been presented to them in the system is sort of okay here's western medicine we'll teach you a little

bit of alternative medicines to sort of add to what you're doing. What we really need is a completely different way of thinking about it, and that's not really happening enough. It's not happening in the institutions, and that's the problem. Well, we need more guys like you to make that happen. so i want to switch gears a little bit and talk uh talk about uh inflammation more specifically and food intolerances because i know that's a big focus of what you do here and i think that you know so when you cast the umbrella term of inflammation, that really is, you know, such a massive part of what is making people ill. And it seems to be something that can be easily rectified with some pretty simple lifestyle choice alterations.

Right. So inflammation is interesting because inflammation can come from certain foods that trigger inflammation. And a lot of the foods that people are eating actually do trigger inflammation. The sugar, the gluten. I'm a huge believer that gluten is a big problem. And that's because we see so many people who stop gluten and all sorts of problems get better. But sugar, gluten, dairy would be the three big ones that trigger inflammation. But I think what people, and even people in the alternative world, are not really getting,

and which I think is a major issue, is often the inflammation is coming from a gut that's imbalanced. The microbial ecology. Exactly. Your microbiome, the balance of the good and the bad bacteria. And so many people, most people have this imbalance, partly because of the foods they're eating, the antibiotics in a lot of the animal products, the number of antibiotics they've taken over the years, other drugs they've taken, GMOs can do it. So you get this imbalance in the gut

and then what happens is firstly you don't digest those foods that you're normally eating properly and because they're not digested properly they can go through a damaged gut wall and trigger inflammation but even the toxins released by this this imbalance in good bacteria is a huge source of inflammation and toxicity. So I think people get that foods can do it. But probably more important is how that food is digested and what's going on in your gut. Because something I learned early on in Chinese medicine, I had these, you know, my second level of Chinese medicine came through Harriet Benfeld and Ephraim Korngold in San Francisco. They wrote a book called Between Heaven and Earth.

Brilliant, brilliant people. I mean, they still, I love them. They just really, they really taught me how to think differently about the body. But to them, always the gut was the center, was the earth element. And when the earth goes off, everything goes off. And even in most non-traditional medicines, I once got taught by a famous herbalist, when you don't know what's going on, you treat the gut. And I think in this day and age, in particular, the gut is a huge issue.

And when you have this dysbiosis or this imbalance in the good and the bad bacteria, that's a huge source of toxicity and inflammation. And if you don't treat that, the inflammation is not going to go. It may get better when you remove the foods. It's not going to go away completely. Until you actually change that, the nature of the gut biome. I think that's super fascinating. And I feel like that this interest and focus on the microbiome is something that's really only getting into public consciousness even just in the last year. I know.

It's fantastic. I think that's fantastic. I think that's going to shift medicine more than anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I kind of started my journey, I mean, back 2007 or 2008, when I first began to, like, change my diet and look at my lifestyle habits, et cetera, I have a good friend and somebody who's worked with me extensively named Compton Rom. He's a PhD in microbiology. And he started hammering home this idea to me early and often all the time. And he would, you know, concoct these crazy smoothies for me to help get my gut biome on the right track.

And I became fascinated with this. And I would talk about it and people would look like I'm crazy. But now literally, in the last year, now it's a thing. And I think it's hugely important. But I think it's important to be able to give people some idea of how they can course correct this if they feel like they're on the wrong track with it. Or how do you even know if you're out of balance? Well, that's a good question. I think the easiest place or the easiest way to know is if your digestion is off. If you're still getting bloated or you're constipated or you have loose stools or you have indigestion, if you have any digestive symptoms, I usually assume that the microbiome is off.

I, in my practice here, probably start 70% to 80% of the people who come in, we treat the microbe. We give herbal antibiotics and probiotics. Because you've got to understand, the microbiome, there are more bacteria in your gut than you have cells in your body. You have thousands and thousands of different strains. And we don't really know exactly what's going on so it's a crapshoot so you're guessing and what we usually do initially

with most of our patients we take them off all the common foods that can trigger inflammation the sugar and the gluten and the dairy and the soy and the processed food and the junk food and and alcohol and at the same time we usually give them herbal anti and i have a cleanse and that's what basically what the cleanse does we give them herbal antibiotics in the cleanse we often use probiotics as well so i do it at the same time and it's amazing how people respond but I mean, some people will do well with just the dietary changes, but when you add those herbs that actually kill the bad bacteria, people do so well. Right. It's amazing. And it sounds like such a foreign concept, but the example that I always use,

and I'm interested in what you think of this, is when you watch the documentary, what's it called, with Morgan Spurlock, when he eats McDonald's, I want to say fat secondarily, supersizing. So you'll notice that the first couple days that he's eating McDonald's all day long, he's getting sick, like he can't stand the idea of eating it. But when you fast forward two weeks later, he wakes up in the morning feeling sick and does not feel right until he eats the mcdonald's and then he says i feel great now so what i'm seeing is a shift in his microbiome right by microbial ecology has changed and it now

needs to it feeds on that mcdonald's food it needs that mcdonald's food to survive and it's triggering his system to say get me more of that get me more of that right and and i mean it's complicated because there's no question that happens but then there's also the the the idea of these foods are addictive i mean sugar and gluten and a lot of and and the the food companies know this i mean they're putting they're making foods that are addictive and now we know that a lot of these foods actually trigger or light up the same part of the brain that heroin does. So we're dealing with drug addicts. I mean, we saw a patient today who was an ex-heroin addict and he got off heroin. And he comes in here and the first thing he said, you know,

because he knew he was going to have to change his diet, he said he's not disciplined enough to change his diet. And I had explained to him, it's not really discipline. We have this idea that you've got to be disciplined. The problem is these foods are addictive. You are basically an addict. This is the same thing over again, except it's not heroin, but it's sugar and junk food and

gluten and they causing and triggering the same chemicals that your your heroin did so we got to get it through to people that these are addictions that are being created it's not just about being disciplined to not eat sugar right and gluten is not as simple as that your body i mean the same thing that happens to drugs happens when you eat these foods, like what happened to Morgan Spurlock, what happens to all of us. You eat the food like you feel like crap initially, and then your body adapts, and you stop feeling so bad from the food. That's what happens with drugs.

So these are complicated things. Yeah, I mean, I think if people doubt that supposition, they should read Salt, Sugar, Fat, Michael Morse's book where he explains this in detail and sort of uses the analogy of the tobacco companies in the 70s and all the science and research that goes the parlance of recovery and say this is not about willpower. This is about surrender. This is not about you being a weak person. We're dealing with a beast here, and it needs a different – you need to shift your perspective on how you deal with it and deal with it in the same way that you would treat somebody who's struggling with heroin addiction or something of that nature. And that hasn't got into the culture zeitgeist yet. And I think if we can get that in, that these are drugs, these are addictive drugs that you need to get over, that would help.

And you talk about the tobacco industry. I think the junk food industry, the sugar industry, they use exactly the same tricks that the tobacco industry uses. They put out this information to make people question that these are harmful to you. They're using exactly the same data. Because if the consumer is confused, that plays into them. As long as people are confused, then they'll continue to buy their product. And they want to keep the consumer confused.

They're doing exactly what the tobacco industry. It's criminal what's going on. I mean, these health issues have become political issues. And emotional issues. I mean, there's nothing, in my experience, talking about diet and food is about as emotionally charged as religion or politics. is about as emotionally charged as religion or politics. And I think that that confusion kind of trickles over into your sort of dietary peculiarities, whether you're a low-carb person or you're a paleo person or you're a vegan or you're no sugar, no grains,

or then there's the high-fat crowd or whatever. And it's like these people of which we know of which we're each we play a part in this whole sort of dialogue of course but to the extent that we argue amongst each other that keeps the general public the guy who's going to mcdonald's every day saying well they can't figure it out so i'm just going to keep eating mcdonald's until they do well this is what we were talking about this thing exactly today because the the reality is there is no one right diet for everyone. Some people do really well on a paleo diet or no grains, no whatever. Some people do well on just removing gluten.

Some people do well on a vegan diet. I mean, it's hard to say there is one right diet. You've got to play around and see what works for you. Having said that, the majority of people that we see in this practice are carbohydrate sensitive, should be cutting down on their carbohydrates and do much better when they do that. But if you're not carbohydrate sensitive, there's no, you know, I don't think that diet's going to work for you. So you really need to play around with it. But I think people really need to, I mean, it pisses me off, this paleo world and the vegan world and everyone's got the, it doesn't work for everyone. People really need to get that.

Got to see what works for you and go with it. And I think you can look at the shared commonalities between all of them, which are really at their root about eating whole foods close to their natural state. It's about eating an anti-inflammatory, more alkaline-forming diet. It's about getting rid of the processed foods. It's all these things that are kind of at the core essence of all these. And the rest is the cherry on top. You know, it's the details that we can quibble over.

But I do, you know, I do like that idea of, you know, a patient coming in and you saying, well, we have to find out what's going on with you before we can say you should do this, that, or the other, whether it's your lifestyle habits, your dietary habits, or your blood work. Let's look at these food sensitivities. And that kind of dovetails into what I want to talk about next, which is gluten and gluten sensitivity. You know, very popular subject right now. There's some controversy. Some people think it's overblown. You know, this idea of sensitivity versus celiac. And you know, all I know is in my own personal experience that when I eat gluten, I don't feel so good. You know, I feel sluggish.

My eyes swell up. You know, I get puffy. There's an inflammatory response. And I don't have celiac. So I'm somewhere on that spectrum of sensitivity. And I'm not perfect at cutting gluten out of my diet. But I know that when I do, I feel better. Okay, so that's a great question

because there is a misunderstanding and it's actually very simple and I don't give a shit what experts say. We see this every day in our practice. There is this whole spectrum of gluten sensitivity from not being sensitive to gluten, which is unusual, to celiac disease. And we see this all the time. People come in and they do the celiac test and it's negative. And the doctors say,

well, you don't have celiac disease, you can eat gluten. It's nonsense. Most people actually fit on the spectrum somewhere like you, like me. I can have a little bit of gluten. It's not the end of the world. But I know if I have a little bit too much or if I'm starting to eat it a bit too frequently, also, I start getting inflammation. I start, first place I feel it is my toes. I actually get this, like, inflammation in my toes. And I know something I've been eating, and it's often gluten. So I hardly eat gluten anymore.

And, you know, I'm not obsessive. Sometimes if I see it from, like, in'm not obsessive and sometimes if i see it from like in italy or wherever and i want to actually i don't get that reaction into italy interestingly enough yeah that gets into like the different ways that we refine our brains so we'll talk about that but you know sometimes i want a piece of bread or some gluten and i have it and then i suffer the consequences but most people fit into that spectrum where they can have a little bit and it's probably not a problem as they go over their tolerance level they get symptoms and i know i know for sure i don't have to have a study i know that's the reality for most people

because you know i've just seen thousands of people where this happens, where their celiac test is negative, but they're still reacting to gluten. And it's probably because the gluten, you know, the wheat of today is very different to the wheat of our ancestors. It's an altered grain. And maybe because of that, I mean, there's so many theories. I mean, what I don't get into, you know, for instance, the paleo theory of why you should be eating this way. Whether that's true or not, I think I don't really care.

Some people do well on a paleo diet. Some people don't do well. I don't know if it's just because of, you know, people can't tolerate grains and all the lectins and i'm i'm sort of just working clinically or you know i sort of go by what i see clinically in my experience but most people that we see in this practice are somewhat sensitive to gluten some people more so than others but most people are somewhat sensitive And I think that's because the wheat is different. And I go to Italy, and we have patients who go to Italy and have the pasta and the bread there and don't seem to have reactions. I thought that was crazy at first, but I've gone there. The same things happen to me.

First of all, maybe I'm on holiday, and maybe it's happening because of that. You have an extra endorphin rush because you're in Tuscany. Maybe, but we hear this over and over again. So there's something to it. That's very, very interesting. So why is this such a controversial notion then? Why are people pushing back on this? Well, I think, you know, same as people push, you know,

the old God will always push back initially. I mean, I think there's less and less pushback because more and more people are feeling it in their bodies. But there's always going to be pushback against something that sort of goes against their way of thinking. So what are the main kind of trends that you see in the patients that are coming through your doors? What are the main kind of trends that you see in the patients that are coming through your doors? I mean, we've talked about gluten-sensitive. We've talked about sort of this carbohydrate intolerance. I mean, what are the things that people should be looking out for?

What are the kind of chronic conditions out there that are typical? Right. Well, look, one of the trends that I see is younger and younger people, especially women, because it's the women who usually come in. I'm seeing younger and younger women come in with problems that I used to see older. Women are coming in in their 20s when they used to come in in their 40s with more and more chronic conditions. I mean, I see so many people with what's labeled irritable bowel syndrome, which is a totally meaningless name for a whole host of problems. And I think we are seeing that. We're seeing a lot of autoimmune problems, talking about these, the junk that's put into the food, the chemicals in the environment in general, this microbiome that's off. Because most of these problems we actually treat in a very similar way. We take them off the common foods that trigger the inflammation and we treat the gut.

Now, sometimes we support the liver. Sometimes we do some other things. But most of the time, we're doing very similar things, and most people get better. So I think the trend is younger people reacting or presenting with these chronic problems, probably because they started when they were younger we you know most of us our age started when we were older the advent of these

foods wasn't really around in the earlier years exactly so i think that's what i'm seeing a lot more and more autoimmune problems um but i the other trend i'm seeing is much more openness in the younger generation to um to want to change your diet and and feel healthy so i it's you know in the old days i'd have to spend so much time trying to explain my generation i'm almost 60 my generation are like it's like they're so difficult because you've got to convince them you know that's what my doctor said or whatever um they're still caught up in this belief system of western medicine and and our western way as being right the younger generation get that we're doing something wrong and they're very open to change so you know that's you know the success of mind body green and you know what people like you are doing is you know, that's, you know, the success of MindBodyGreen and, you know, what

people like you are doing. People know that there's something wrong with the system and with what we've been taught up to now, and they're looking for change. And that's so, to me, that's so exciting. Yeah, I'm incredibly optimistic and really optimistic, particularly with very young people, because I think that they're very attuned to what's going on. They look around. They see obese people all over the place, and they see the lifestyle habits that are contributing to those problems that the older generation is having,

and they're having this converse sort of, I don't want that in my life. And this is the first generation that's had to see that and experience that. And then at the same time, you can't walk a block in New York City without seeing Organic Avenue or a juice press place and get your turmeric shot. And we got here a little bit early. And I said, oh, let's see if there's a place where we can go hang out for 10 minutes so we don't bug the good doctor. And, yeah, we went to the juice press place and had some kale chips and you know that would not exist a couple years ago and it's happening quickly yeah it's really really it is it is so yeah i feel extremely positive i mean i am so excited by the young generation i mean i have six now seven health coaches working with me and these are all women who were disillusioned with what they were doing,

wanted to study nutrition, wanted to make a difference. They live this life and they went to study it further and they want to do something to help people. And this seems to be happening all the time. We have so many patients who come in here, they change their life, and then they go to IIN to go study nutrition because they want to make a difference. So, yeah, I feel very positive. And I feel positive because it's coming from the bottom.

This is a consumer-driven movement. It's not coming from the top. I don't think it's ever going to come from the top. I don't feel positive that the government that the politicians that our institutions that the medical system is ever going to change it's too entrenched in the in the medical industrial financial whatever complex that is creating wealth for whoever it's creating wealth for so they're too entrenched in that they're not going to change it that's going to be very difficult to change. But there is a very strong, powerful, consumer-driven movement,

which is growing. I mean, look at MindBodyGreen. Oh, it's crazy. It's unbelievable. I mean, every month their website traffic seems to double. And Jason will say that all the web experts out there would tell him, well, you'll never break the glass ceiling on this number because nobody's that interested in wellness.

And he continues to blow away all those benchmarks. And that's phenomenal. I mean, that speaks to the promise for all of us and for our country. You know, that definitely feeds the optimism. Right. And it is. It's young. I mean, it is a young movement, which is fantastic.

And we all have the power to vote with our dollar. And so as much as it's consumer-driven, we can support those businesses that are cropping up around that. And I think we all should be doing that. I think that's important. We should be supporting those businesses because there's so much money. Look at you in California. Look at the GMO labeling. Look what you have to come up against.

I mean, these are billions, hundreds of millions of dollars fighting to keep. Have you seen the latest thing? They want to label it themselves. I mean. Yeah, I know. It never ends. And I'm constantly beating a dead horse with this issue on the podcast. But it is remarkable and amazing that they were able to defeat that initiative, Prop 37.

But I do think it's changing. I mean, there's no question because I've been in this movement a long time and every year it's not just slowly happening, it's like exponentially growing and it's so exciting. It's wonderful. I mean, I'm'm very very positive about the next generation yeah me too i know that you're a big proponent of doing detox cleanse, you know, fruit and vegetable detox cleanses. And that's something that was absolutely crucial in commencing my journey. Had I not done that,

I'm not sure that I would have taken the next step. It was a profound thing for me. But it's also that's another kind of sort of controversial thing. And it begs the question of, you know, juicing in general. And there seems to be this idea now that, you know, we should never drink juice, you know, that the sugar in the juice is bad and we should stay away from that. And, you know, I don't go a day without having, you know, my own juice that we make at home, you know, vegetable fruit juice, or, you know, my Vitamix smoothies that I, you know, fruit juice or you know my vitamin smoothies that i you know couldn't go two days without so well i have a slightly different take on this i think someone like you you're probably not carbohydrate sensitive but too much fruit juice for some

people is a problem when i started getting to juicing many years ago, I bought a juicer and I started, my favorite was apples, carrots, beets, and ginger. I started juicing and I started putting on all this weight. And that is too much sugar for me. So, I'm not against juicing. I am against too much sugar in the juices, too much fruits for some people. But to get back to your question about detox, to me a detox is just an entry point into a healthy lifestyle. Right, it's like a tabla rasa. Exactly. It's just a way of getting into eating and living a healthy way

because what I find with a detox, so my detox isn't a juicing detox, although I'm not against juicing, especially if there's not too much fruit in it my detox is really about cleaning out the gut you know we're talking about that earlier supporting the liver and the gut with the nutrients to help the detoxification system and removing all the foods that could be triggering inflammation and toxicity and once again to me it's just that entry point into getting so right so people feel after two weeks feel so much better they go ah i can actually feel like this so they don't have to listen to me anymore they listen to their bodies and then we get them on a healthy plan

so that to me the detox is just such a great little boost as sort of you know pushing the reset button more than um a long-term thing that anyone has to do it's just a great way of getting healthy starting that journey right right right starting over um but i think that you you bring up an important point because i you know i'm not against juicing i think juicing is a great way of resting the digestive system. I mean, I personally do smoothies every day. I'm a big Vitamix smoothie person. And I love my juices too. And juice press do make good juices. But I do think we do, I am wary of giving people who are carbohydrate sensitive,

which is a lot of people, too much fruit juice. I understand that. That is a, you know, you need to just be aware of that more than then right right right an issue for everyone and i would say that that uh to be clear when i when when i and tyler sitting here we make juices together at our house and and they're very vegetable based like i almost use fruit just to cut the flavor so it's a little more palatable but it's usually kale beet spinach you know celery things like that so it's it's much lower glycemic sure and look you're a perfect

example of of it working chris car is a perfect example of of these things working so i'm definitely not against it i just tell people just be careful of putting too much sugar because I know from my – I love the sugar. So I wanted the sweet. Right. I got you. So if somebody is listening to this and they're kind of at that crossroads point in their life where they're grappling with how to live more healthy but they're not quite there yet but they're interested. healthy, but they're not quite there yet, but they're interested. I mean, how does somebody begin this journey of trying to figure out what their food sensitivities are, what their intolerances are, and how to take that first right step?

Okay. So the first thing, I mean, I rarely do blood tests for food intolerances for a couple of reasons. Over the years when i used to do them i found that the the results changed so frequently and especially changed after you clean up the gut so i usually don't do the blood tests i put people on elimination diets as we were talking earlier i tell people remove you know the sugar the the gluten, the dairy. On my website, we have a cleanse diet and we have a be well living diet. Both of them, the cleanse diet is a bit stricter, but we remove the common foods that cause a problem. I often at the same time clean out the gut, but then after that, you start introducing foods and you see how you react to those foods. So we start with the foods that usually don't cause a problem but

sometimes do like the nightshades you reintroduce them you see how you feel then you can start with maybe a bit of soy maybe a bit of dairy whatever but you slowly one at a time every two or three days reintroduce a food or a food group and you see how you respond and you listen to your body and the beauty of that is you start becoming your own doctor you start becoming oh it's awareness training i think a lot of what we try to teach patients is awareness training where it's aware of where your mind's going but it's also aware of how you respond to food to your peers to you know to your boss so the more aware you can become and including to how

you react to foods, the better it's going to be for you in the long term. Right. I think that's a great, you know, sort of introductory message. And I think that it is important that you do have to kind of clean things up first before you can really see how these different foods are affecting you. I mean, for example, if you just want to know if you have a gluten sensitivity and you cut out gluten from your diet, everybody's going to feel better because they're not going to be eating as much processed food. So by virtue of whether it's gluten or anything else, they're going to feel better.

So you have to kind of get to a baseline, you know, from a scientific point of view so that you can really objectively evaluate what's going on. Yeah, I think that's important. I think a lot of people come in here and they say, well, I stopped dairy for a week and maybe I stopped gluten for a week. But I think it's much better if you cut out all these foods first and you start at a new baseline. Great. All right, so I'm going to let you go. That's all right.

I'm enjoying the week. You want to keep going? All right. So I'm going to let you go. That's all right. I'm enjoying the week. You want to keep going? Yeah. All right. Good. So where do you see wellness heading in the next 10 years if you had your druthers? I mean, what is the next thing? Oh, I think it's just a huge growing movement.

And part of it I can tell because the financial guys the um the money people are starting to get involved and you know so many people you know want to invest in my company invest in something health they're coming to me for advice because they see wellness is hot so i think that's good and can be bad i mean i think but the fact that the the investors are starting to realize that wellness is here as they say wellness is hot and it's we it's obviously here to stay um so i think you're going to see more and more big money coming in um supporting whether it's mind body green, green or wellness companies. And I think that's basically a good thing if we can all stay true to our truth and not sell out.

Yeah, I think that there's a danger of being co-opted. Just like you see a green all-natural label on every food product that's essentially meaningless. But at the same time you see things like cvs saying we're not going to sell tobacco products anymore like that's real that's a legitimate shift and i think it's up to us to stay true to the truth and not to sell out and i think there will be some people that sell out but i think there's going to be a core i mean i honestly believe there's a lot of core people who really believe in

this and will do it intelligently so I think this is just going to grow, they're going to be more and more healthy same as you come to New York now and you see juice places all over, I think in five years time you're going to see healthy restaurants all over, I mean New York is

this has been going on in LA.A. for much longer. But when something grabs hold in New York, it grabs hold. The rest of the world. I don't know. I mean, I think New York rivals L.A. any day of the week in terms of healthy restaurants. I mean, there's so many. I think it's just going to explode. I mean, grass-fed meat, for instance, was so hard to get.

You're not a meat eater. When I eat meat, I mean, grass-fed meat, for instance, was so hard to get. You're not a meat eater. When I eat meat, I'll eat grass-fed meat. Now I see more and more restaurants doing it. Well, gluten-free is sort of almost passe. So many places are doing gluten-free. But I see more and more healthy restaurants. You know, I have chefs who are patients who say to me their priority is good, tasty food, but we shouldn't be thinking of it, is it healthy or not healthy? They just want to make good, tasty food that is automatically healthy.

Right. And I think that's what's going to happen. It's going to not become, you know, do I have to eat healthy and cardboard and food that isn't so tasty but I want to eat healthy? I see that happening, that these healthy restaurants are becoming really good restaurants. They don't have to say they're this kind of restaurant or that. Exactly. They're just delicious.

I mean, if you go to Cafe Gratitude in Los Angeles, it doesn't say that everything is plant-based. And you don't have to ask the question. You eat your meal there. It's absolutely delicious. It's a wonderful environment. And you leave wanting to go back. And that's it. Yeah, and I think that's going to happen more and more.

I think this young generation, I mean, there's so many people are getting into nutrition. I think the web has been um such a positive yeah it's got its problems but the the way people are getting educated now the young people is fantastic so i definitely see there's this big shift with the 20 year olds and and and younger a major shift in in how they see things i mean I have so many patients who have come in with their mothers, young 20-year-old women who have really been screwed around by the medical system and sick. They've discovered, they've been online and sort of worked out what is sort of going on with them. They've come here with their mothers, and you go through everything with them,

and it makes perfect sense with them, and they keep looking at their mothers they i told you so more i told you so we've seen this so often i mean it's becoming like a common thing the mothers like you know thought the kid was crazy um and it's just beautiful to see and and so i think there's more and more of this younger generation educating my generation. So I love it. Yeah, that's fantastic. I mean, we're seeing that. One of the questions that always comes up is, well, how do you get your kids to eat more healthy?

And there's no magic bullet answer to that other than leading by example and providing healthy alternatives. And it takes time and being patient and being flexible when they go to a friend's house and all these sorts of things. And we have a particularly, uh, uh, sort of strong-willed 10 year old daughter who has her own ideas about how things should go and was very resistant to healthy eating for many, many years. And now my wife's favorite thing is to post Instagram pictures of what she's choosing to pack in her lunch. She's making healthy choices. And she'll always tag it with something like, the microbes are changing. The microbiome is taking hold of her brain.

And it's really amazing and encouraging to see that. Not because we told her she had to, but she's making that choice. It's fantastic. Not because we told her she had to, but she's making that choice. It's fantastic. And even going to Costco. I mean, they sell these big bags of organic almond flour at Costco. Things like, you know, the recipes that are on the web for these healthy desserts. You know, coconut milk. And it's just, I'm amazed at, you know and and i've been helped a lot by my

health coaches because you know over the years it's been me telling people okay you shouldn't eat gluten you shouldn't eat this day yada yada yada now i have health coaches who actually give specifics to the patients and they come up with pinterest pages with all these amazing recipes and now my wife in the last couple of years has been making these unbelievable desserts because i love my sugar i love that sweetness and you know now i can have my chocolate mousse made with raw cacao and coconut milk and chia seeds and a bit of stevia i mean things that so so there's the availability of having the same um dessert or the junk food that we all crave you can get it in a in a healthy form now i think that's becoming more ubiquitous which i think is yeah it's overcoming this idea that

there's a sacrifice involved exactly because when you know at our age you know going to the natural food market meant going to that terrible place where everything tastes horrible. Exactly. And it's just not that way anymore. Thank you. They've really figured it out. Yep. Well, I think that means two things. On the one hand, there are incredible

healthy, delicious alternatives to, let's say, ice cream, because you can get this coconut milk stuff, or you can make it yourself, and it's absolutely fantastic, and you don get this coconut milk stuff or you can make it yourself and it's absolutely fantastic and you don't feel like you're sacrificing anything to eat it. At the same time, there's also the advent of lots and lots, many, many, many more processed foods. I'd say this is gluten-free or this is dairy-free or this is sugar-free

or this is fat-free or it's vegan or whatever it is, and it plays a mind trick on you because you think, oh, well, this is this, so this must be healthy, when in fact it's a heavily processed food. So I think you have to have some discernment when it comes to that. No, that's right on. I mean, I think there's so much of that junk health food out there. I think you nailed it. I think my idea of healthy dessert or healthy food was not really that taste. It was like I'm eating it because it's healthy, not because it's delicious.

Now that's shifted. I mean, you get from, you know, everything can be absolutely delicious and healthy. And that's the way it should be. When we were younger, it was the carob bar. Exactly. Horrible tasting. Exactly. and healthy right and that's the way it should be when we were younger it was the carob bar exactly horrible tasting exactly and you had to make a choice and you used to eat this crap because you thought it was healthy i mean yeah it doesn't yeah and that's changed and that's probably only in the last five years that i've seen this real shift that like i don't need to get that crappy you know delicious healthy food i think it also brings up an important issue, though, which is the economics of all of it.

Because, you know, not everybody can go to Whole Foods and afford that Coconut Bliss ice cream. And that stuff's pricey. And when you see the blueprint juice that's $12, and, you know, yeah, I'm sure it's great. But it's like, that's ridiculous. So for somebody who's on a budget, it's very easy to be dismissive and say, well, you know, I'd eat well if I could, but you know, it's not in the

realm of possibility. So how do you help disabuse people of that idea that eating healthy, it doesn't have to be a whole foods, you know, whole foods, whole paycheck? Right. Well, I'm going to sort of answer it first by saying, not really answer it, but I need to bring up the point that the problem is the foods that get subsidized by our government, by our tax dollars, are all the unhealthy foods. I mean, they've just bailed out the sugar industry fairly recently in the last couple of months. out the sugar industry fairly recently in the last couple of months. So our tax money is going to subsidize all that food that we shouldn't be eating, and that's why it's cheap. Put that aside, what's the practicalities of eating healthy on a budget? I mean, I think it is partly a problem, but what we tell people is the EWG.org, the Environmental Working Group, has a wonderful list of the Dirty Dozen and the Clean 15.

So try to buy your fruits and vegetables organic, and the ones that are relatively or have fewer pesticides, those aren't as important. So we give people that list, or we tell them to look at that list. Right. The Dirty Dozen is a list that comes out every year that identifies the 12 foods that are really important that you get organic because the pesticide levels are so high in those. Right. And that's ewg.org. So we do that.

But then we start really teaching people to cook at home and eat at home, and that becomes much cheaper. And if you can't get organic ingredients, you don't get organic. Still get your fruits and vegetables. Just try to eat food as close to nature as possible, foods that haven't been altered by the food industry. So I think the more you encourage people to eat at home, the less expensive it's going to be.

But I don't know if there's, I mean, it's a problem. It is sort of a middle class, upper middle class thing to do. It's very difficult to eat healthily on a very low budget. I mean, it's a problem. I don't know what the solution to that is. I mean, it's actually criminal, but that's just the way it is. I had a guest on the podcast a couple months ago, a guy called David Simon, and he wrote a book called Meatonomics,

and he really did an economic analysis on the food subsidies and how this has impacted our economy. And when you do the math and you look at how much of our taxpayer dollars goes into subsidizing these, the manufacturing of, you know, whether it's livestock or grains or what have you, that that, you know, McDonald's Big Mac, which is whatever it is, two bucks, three bucks, actually comes out to, you know, some crazy number. Like, I can't remember what it was, but, was, but it was like $9 or something like that. So we actually are paying for all this in our own way.

And to be able to kind of reframe it and think about it might be, I mean, it's not going to solve everybody's problem, but it's interesting to kind of think of it in those terms. And I think until we really can enact some legislative change on Capitol Hill to really address that in a real way, it's going to be difficult to really change that paradigm. But I don't know how optimistic I am about that. Right. And it's not happening enough, but I work with a nonprofit in South Africa, and we started growing – we started vegetable gardens at the school because these kids i went there one year

and the kids were getting bread and and jam for lunch and that was their lunch and i saw all this you know this all this ground around and i thought you know i used to i've been teaching at rancho la puerta which is a spa in mexico and we were just there i was just there how those vegetable gardens and what's his name the gardener oh he's incredible yeah so i thought why can't we do this here so we started growing vegetables started vegetable gardens at the schools and um first of all you the kids would learn about the vegetables i mean their health changed dramatically i mean the principals couldn't believe from add and a lot of them are hiv positive because this was the only meal that

they were getting but right the point is if we can encourage people to grow their own vegetables that would be great right i don't know how realistic that is but um why can't it be that every public school has its own garden i mean mean, why would that be so difficult to create? Even if they were small little hanging gardens and it was part of your curriculum to learn and take care of like a small amount of growing carrots and kale or something. So I think this is the direction that I would like things to, you know, in the next couple of years. But, you know, in the next couple of years, I think that's where I'm going to start putting some energy into these simple things that I think can make a huge difference. I mean, I've seen it happen in South Africa. There's no reason why it can't happen here.

I mean, I know it is happening a little bit, but it could become, you know, it should be spreading all over. But they're doing it kind of on their own volition. There's no sort of policy from above. I mean, I went out and visited the public school out in Queens that implemented the plant-based diet out there, PS, I forget what it's called. Do you know what I'm talking about? No. There's an amazing public school. It's the first public school in the country to implement a plant-based diet.

And I went out there to meet with them and have them on the podcast and hear about this. And it got a lot of press because it's like, ooh, vegetarian diet. But it really wasn't about that. That was almost a byproduct of a systemic commitment to wellness at this school, basically an elementary school for kids, where it's woven into the fabric of their everyday existence and they're growing their food in the back and they have tower gardens in the library and they're and they're learning how to make healthy snacks and their after-school programs and all this kind of amazing things that are happening so there are these sparks that are

occurring we just have to fan those i think so yeah and i think we all need to work together whether you're a vegan or you're paleo and i mean that's crazy god forbid right right and i think you know we need to you know somehow and i know mind body green is trying to do that type of thing and i think the more we can create those type of forums, the better. I think that's a beautiful way to end it. So even though I like to eat sort of paleo-ish, well, I'll make my peace with my vegan brother here. We'll smoke the peace pipe, African style, South African. But I think it's crazy, yeah, because I agree with you. I think we're all saying the similar things

and people just get caught up with such dogma. It's absolute nonsense. I mean, I share what's worked for me, what's changed my life. I don't have any judgment on anybody else's decision over that, and it's not my prerogative to tell anybody what they should or they shouldn't do. I would like to put out a healthy message and try to help inspire people to which you do think about their health and their friends you're doing it and you're doing a great job yeah well so are you you're an inspiration i appreciate you taking the time thank you you're a busy guy thanks thanks rich so uh i hope that our paths cross

i'm sure they will all right so cool So cool. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. Peace. Plants. All right, people. That's our show this week. I hope you enjoyed it. Frank was awesome. You want to learn more about Frank, go to his website, drfranklipman.com. You can find him on Twitter.

You can find him on Facebook. You can find his Be Well products as well through his website. You want to read his books. Again, they are called Revive, Stop Feeling Spent and Start Living Again. And his second book is Total Renewal, Seven Key Steps to Resiliency, Vitality, and Long-Term Health. You can find those on Amazon. Just use the Amazon banner ad as your way to get there. You know how to do it. You can find those on Amazon. Just use the Amazon banner ad as your way to get there. You know how to do it.

I want to learn more about plant-based nutrition. Check out our course, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. You can find that on mindbodygreen.com. Three and a half hours of streaming video content and an online community and downloadable tools and everything you need to get more plants in your life. Whether you've been eating plant-based for a long time or this is brand new to you and you're just trying to wrap your brain around it, it's a good place to start. It's a great program. We're proud of it.

So check that out. We got schwag at richworld.com. We have our vitamin B12 supplement and my athletic recovery product, Chai Repair. And we got some other cool products there too. I'm not even going to tell you what. Just go check it out. Go to richroll.com and you will see for yourself. What else?

I think that's it. We're out of here. Nothing left except to leave a comment on the blog page. Tell us what you think about the show. Leave us a review on iTunes if you have a minute. That helps us out. And again, tell a friend. Thanks for stopping by, you guys.

Hope you dug it, and we'll see you next week. I'm out of here. Peace. Plants. you