The Rich Roll Podcast - Brogan Graham Is A Friend Hunter

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Meet Brogan Graham.  Fitness fanatic. Extreme extrovert. Style icon. Force of Nature. Cool dad. Loyal friend and overall stellar human being. These are just a few of many labels I would pin to BG’s chest. An exceptional host during my April visit to Minneapolis (the whole thing was his idea), Brogan is the co-founder of November Project, a free and frenetic, open-to-anyone, grassroots sweat revival—a flashmob fitness revolution that counts over 250,000 lifetime members and dominates the pre-dawn urban landscape of 52 cities and nine countries spread across North America, Europe, the United Kingdom and even parts of Asia.  Leveraging community, a simple sense of accountability, and open public spaces, the November Project motivates people of all ages, shapes, sizes and levels to move their bodies—welcoming everyone from Olympic medalists and professional athletes to complete fitness rookies and recent couch potatoes. Today’s conversation traverses many landscapes with a unique flair that can only be described as unapologetically Brogan-esque. Chronologically the first conversation recorded during my time in Minneapolis, we digest lessons delivered by a city and citizenship under duress—and why it’s necessary to never stop learning. We talk ‘dadding’, training, perfectionism, friendship, and the importance of getting outside your comfort zone—not just in the context of fitness but in all aspects of life. But the overall theme of this discussion is cultivating inclusivity. Why the path forward demands resisting the impulse to call people out. Instead, let’s call people in. As I’m fond of saying, prophets walk among us. Brogan isn’t just one such everyman prophet. He understands that to find these people, you need to always be on the hunt. You need to take swings at bat. You need to always be expanding your circle. And you need to develop the habit of reaching out to others, embracing your neighbors, and contributing to your community. This reflex begins with one simple word: hello. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll602 YouTube: bit.ly/brogangraham602 I urge all of you to absorb this conversation in its entirety. Whip out your pen and paper—this is essential, potentially life-altering listening for every human. And simply put, it’s everything I hoped it would be. Brogan is a beautiful dude. I wish he lived in Los Angeles. But I’ll take him however I can get him. May his words inspire you to reach out to someone new today. P.S. – This is Brogan’s second spin on the RRP flywheel. If you enjoy today’s episode then dig up his first appearance four years prior in RRP 277. P.P.S. – Special thanks to talented Minneapolis visual artists Bennie Wilson and Jordan Lundell for photographing today’s podcast. Peace + Plants, Rich

Springtime here in the Midwest, just because it feels like we should be back, that means nothing. And Midwestern folks are stoked. Just pasty white legs, just like Minnesota. It's wild. Things that people, ice fishing, which no, I haven't gotten into yet. I don't think I'm going to. But I had a knee surgery this past winter, and I spent a lot of time on snowshoes walking around and talking to those People out there in the huts and here's my approach my approach is

I've done this. I've never admitted this. I've done this probably 30 times 30 different ice huts Hello Hi, yeah, is this ice fishing? I just moved yeah hi I just moved here from Southern California kind of just like give them the whole story and then they'll usually show me the whole thing

so there anyway I was actually looking for like somebody do you want a beer? because I just thought that'd be cool to have that experience

yes I do you know are we friends yet? one of my buddies in San Diego calls me a friend hunter but it's the reason that I think I have these really weird, interesting kind of occurrences.

I'm Brogan Graham, and this is The Rich Roll. Nah. I'm going to do it again. Brogan Graham, and this. I don't like that. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Hi, I'm Brogan Graham, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. Yeehaw.

You won't use that one. No. The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings dispersed beings of planet earth. It is I, your host Rich Rich Roll, saying welcome to the podcast. Today, I rekindle, stoke my bromance with the very charming and charismatic Brogan Graham, who I would describe as an irreverent, not-your-run-of-the-mill fitness fanatic, an extrovert, maximalist, style icon, force of nature,

just one of those rare people with their own gravitational force field and just overall stellar human being. If you've been tuning in recently, you know Brogan's name has come up a few times on our roll-on episodes. He was our host and shepherd during our April visit to Minneapolis, which is when this podcast was recorded. In fact, the whole project was his idea. For those newer to the show, Brogan, along with his buddy Boyan Mandrich, founded this thing 10 years ago called November Project,

Boyan Mandrich founded this thing 10 years ago called November Project, which is a free, open, urban, outdoor space, open to the public, boisterous, gung-ho, group-led, script-flipping fitness thing that has, over the years, blossomed into a true global movement, a collective of communities that today counts over 250,000 lifetime members in 52 cities in nine countries all over the world. I love this dude, but first we gotta take care of a little business. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time.

It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression,

anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find

the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Brogan. Brogan Graham. I don't want to say too much about this one other than that we cover quite a bit of ground. We talk about dadding. We talk about building community. We talk about getting outside your comfort zone, not just in the context of fitness, but in all aspects of life. If there is a general theme to this one, I would say it's about seeking friendship, cultivating inclusivity, and calling people in rather than calling people out. As I'm fond of saying, prophets walk among us. And Brogan isn't just one of them. He's a guy who understands that to find these people, these prophets that walk among us, you need to be somebody who's always taking swings, somebody who is always on the hunt, in the habit of expanding your circle, reaching out

to others, embracing your neighbors, and contributing to your community. It's a practice, he will tell you, begins with a simple, hey, how you doing? Brogan's a beautiful dude. I wish he lived in LA, but I'll take him however I can get him. So yeah, let's do the thing. This is me and Brogan Graham. Brogan Graham. Rich Roll, the Rich Roll podcast. We are in Minneapolis.

What are we doing here? I think I convinced you to come visit. You did. And I just pulled out all the stops and I am shocked that you're here. We're here solely by dint of your efforts, but I'm super excited to be here, man. I actually can't believe that you're here.

You didn't think it would happen. Well, I kept baiting you to make it sound like I was gonna pull the plug at the last minute. And then the weather, it snowed this morning. It's all right. I know, but after all those years in Southern California, like weather is a thing. Meaning like-

It is the end of April. You would think the sun might peak out a little bit, but maybe not so much. And I went to a workout this morning and I was like looking for other folks to like talk. I was like, there's snow on the ground. I was like, are we not talking about this? It was very uncool.

Like I was exposing myself as like a recent- You lived here long enough. I mean, a year and a half. That should be something that isn't worthy of being all that. Yeah, but I stopped asking. I was like, okay, this is very uncool. It's gotta be sort of April.

Well, March has gotta be terrible. Cause that's when you think, oh, it's March, It's gotta be sort of April. Well, March has gotta be terrible. Cause that's when you think, oh, it's March, it's spring now. Right. It's all gonna start shifting. And then you get slammed. You get one weekend that's like 60 or 70 degrees and like Minnesotans are wearing shorts and like we're thrilled. And then it's like, oh, I think it's summer.

I think we're just in. Yeah. And then it's. But you're like the guy who's wearing shorts year round anyway. Some of that. Pull the mic up a little bit closer to you. Like that. Not that your voice isn't booming.

Well, the microphone thing, I also go like really, I go hard into it, you know? That's the way you live your life. I am, I'm pumped to be on. It's been four years. It's been four years. Yeah. And that's honestly, like, it's weird.

That's the only time I've actually met you. No, that's not true. Oh, because I went to that November project. I dragged you to West LA. I'm still recovering from that. West LA. That was at least three years ago. I think that was two years later.

So we're internet friends. We are. And then we took a stab at doing a little remote recording that I was gonna append to the top of a podcast about being a dad. And that was one year ago. Let's talk about that for a second. You called me, I think in June or July or something.

It must've been June. And you were like, yeah, I wanna add, I'm gonna start doing these shorter clips to add to other podcasts that you've like, that were upcoming. And I was hesitant. I was like, Rich wanna add, I'm gonna start doing these shorter clips to add to other podcasts that you've like, that were upcoming. And I was hesitant. I was like, Rich, man, like it's a pretty intense time here. Are we doing this?

And you're like, yeah, and we recorded it. And then it was just like- And then Minneapolis exploded. Minneapolis exploded. There's no way. And then you come back and you're like, sorry. We can't use this. Yeah. So anyway.

So that's a good lead in to addressing the elephant in the room. I definitely wanna open this by saying out loud that I'm not sure anybody needs to hear from two white, cisgender, upwardly mobile, suburban dwelling dads, you know. Who are already taking up space. Right, already taking up space, white space.

Right. To, you know, bro out on a curfew imposed Minneapolis in the middle of a COVID spike, the Daunte Wright situation and the Chauvin trial. Does anybody need to hear, you know, our opinions on racial justice, Black Lives Matter, civil rights? I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous, but we're here and it's rolling. And I think that there's some value in conversation. You talk about it all the time. It's like, I have grown to really appreciate you as a host and as someone who brings not only people together, but like the best out of

those people and to sit and have a conversation. And like, you know, we talked about on the way over here, it's like, or the last couple of days leading up to this, it's like, there's also a lot of life that's going on here in Minneapolis that applies elsewhere. Right. Opinions and things that we're kind of trying

to sort through as middle-aged white dudes. You know, there's, I think that there's a ton of value. So to you and your crew, thank you for coming here. Yeah. I don't know that I would have come here just to interview you though. That was, that's not, I mean, you put in motion, you put in motion this opportunity to sit down with, with Mayor Jacob Fry. That was kind of the instigating impulse. Of course, coming here then, you know, it became our responsibility to find community leaders of color to talk to. It wouldn't have been great to just interview the mayor and not get, you know, a differing point of view or perspective of somebody who, you know, is really immersed in the movement and the community. So we're doing that as well. We're recording this one first, though, so I don't have the experience of having sat down with those folks yet. We will release this afterwards.

And I also have this feeling like the recording from a year ago that didn't ever see the light of day, that there's a chance that this might not see the light of day. So if this gets banked and we- No, this is gonna go up. But what's interesting about that experience,

I think reflecting back on that, I recognize my level of disengagement and ignorance or naivete, I guess I should say, around exactly what was happening here and the import of it nationally and internationally that it's become. Yeah. I mean, I thought of that because I remember having that conversation with you where I was like, I was hesitant because I- Well, you were boots on the ground here. So you had a tactile connection.

We were living in uptown and we were about a little less than half a mile away from Cup Foods, from what is now George Floyd Square. And there's two things with that. When you talk about that, there's the piece that's about understanding how outraged this city was. Okay, there's that piece.

But then there's also a piece about like large scale crimes and terrorism that happened way down the road. Like I remember hearing about certain things growing up and feeling like Oklahoma City is a million miles away. That's hard to wrap my brain around, you know? And when the Twin Towers came down, like I was living in Boston, I felt a lot closer, but we weren't in New York City.

And like the whole world was shooken by that. But like, is it different to be closer? And so to have those conversations with you, like it felt weird. It was like, I don't know that we're having, I don't know that we were connecting on the same. Yeah. We weren't not having the same experience. I don't know that we're having, I don't know that we were connecting on the same. We weren't having the same experience. We weren't because I didn't understand

what was actually happening. And then fast forward, I think not even a couple weeks in all cities. Yeah, it became a very different picture quickly for everybody. For sure, for sure. And going back to how you kicked this show off, I was one of my highest council members, my mother, Ann, I told her, she's a huge fan.

And I told her that you were coming here. She's like, oh great. Like she thinks we're all just friends from like her front driveway playing basketball growing up. Like she pretends like we're all here. It all bleeds together. Oh, Rich is coming. You know, it's like, it wasn't that big of a deal,

but she said, well, I hope you guys don't end up looking like idiots. She said that. There's a very good chance that's exactly what's gonna happen. So she just said, she goes, well, I'm really proud of him. I'm glad he's engaged.

And like, I don't know how much of this you've done where you go to like where it is. Like this is like. No, I mean, I've gone to cities and done podcasts in cities, but they haven't been event driven. Right. So this is unique and different in that regard.

And on some level, I think it's a reaction to the world having been shut down the past year and being unable to travel, which is something I love doing. And we had a tour set up. We were gonna do live events in like six cities. So that didn't happen. But on top of that, and most importantly,

just a recognition of the significance of what's going on here. The fact that the whole world is watching, moment to moment what's going on here. The fact that the whole world is watching, you know, moment to moment what's transpiring here. It just felt prescient and important. And the opportunity arose because of you. And I couldn't say no to that. Yeah, and I was stoked.

But I do wanna get it right too. So I feel that responsibility and that pressure. But that's a white guy thing. Is it? And I'm not trying to teach anybody. I'm not trying to teach anybody. So walk me through that. I'm not trying to teach anybody, but that's a- Well, you've kind of done some training around this, right?

Some formal training. We're not supposed to talk about the work. Okay, that's part of the training too. But do it and then like tell some piece, some... All right. I think that the idea of perfectionism, the idea of getting it right, the idea of like having a messy conversation perfectly

is like, well, that's nearly impossible, especially for white folks that haven't handled race the same way and have lived a pretty easy life here in the United States. Like to think that like, we're gonna step into an arena and like get it all right. Like there will be missteps on this trip and in these conversations and on my side.

And like, you know, one of the things that one of the equity advisors for November Project told me today was like, acknowledge at the top, acknowledge at the top of the show. And you sort of did it, but I'll do it again for myself, for both of us. Like, what if you were launching into a conversation where you're gonna make mistakes?

Like, not like, oh, if we have a mistake on these topics and I don't even know which ones we'll cover, but like, if we have one, then we'll no, no, no. Let's just assume we're going to make mistakes. Cause you and I are both new to this. Like it's embarrassing. Right. But it's probably better to proceed going towards some mistakes, but in the right direction than like, oh, let's freeze up until. You know, Rich, I haven't done it. You get all rigid because you wanna say the right thing. And then the conversation really doesn't end up

going anywhere because you're coming from a place of fear. And if there's one thing that I've kind of learned or gleaned from conversations that I've had over the last 12 months on this subject, it's that, it's exactly what you said. Like you can't be afraid to have the conversation. It's acknowledging you're not gonna get it perfectly. I think there is a trepidation with a lot of white people. They wanna talk about it,

but that fear prevents them from even having the conversation because they don't want to get it wrong. They don't want to get castigated for saying the wrong thing. And so those conversations never transpire. Yep. And then, and then those out there that are like, yeah, I want to, yeah, okay. I'm going to do the reading and I'm going to, I'm going to get it right. And I'm going to figure it out. And then I'm going to engage and they engage and they engage and they get it wrong and they get called out or called a racist or critiqued or and then. And then the white fragility of.

Flares up. Like I'm trying, why are you taking me down? But it's not the responsibility of the black community to give you a pat on the back and say, good job. Right, and if we're living in this like insular, like existence of like, of white privilege that puts you in a place where like, you've, you know, you've practiced your whole life,

not taking criticism. And so it really like, it doubly hurts. It's 10 times, I'm not used to this. It's like, well, you should enter into these, enter the real world a little bit, you know? And look, it sounds as if I'm like coming from a place of experience. I am when it comes to messing up, you should enter the real world a little bit. And look, it sounds as if I'm like coming from a place of experience. I am when it comes to messing up,

like when it comes to doing the wrong things and proceeding as if I know the whole picture. But it's the way I've looked at building community and the way I looked at November Project has been through the lens of who I am in running, of who I am and it was in Boston and kind of how I saw bringing a group together and how to supercharge a group.

And so, I don't take credit or responsibility for all of November Project, but I think it was built by two white guys. And I think there's another thing that, Somia and I spoke about today is like, for my white friends out there that look at November Project and just say, that's fun. It's just fun. You know, it's not racist. It's just, it's a free community thing. Like people should show up if they can. And if they can't, they can't. And it's for everyone. And it's just, it's good. I would say it was comfortable for us

and we chose locations for us and we chose to bring people together in the only way we knew how. And we did it with our language and our social media and the group is formed by two cisgendered white guys, two rowers in Boston. The head Northeastern kind of like fancy school pedigree. And when I'm having the beginning of this story

and I can tell it's not landing, I say, could two shirtless black men have gone into the Harvard stadium and built a group of three, four, 500 people that were screaming and waking up the neighborhood with booming fuck yes and like hugging it out and just having the best time. And what would that look like? Like how would that have looked?

And I'm not talking about Harvard University. I'm not talking about Boston Police Department. I'm not talking about the neighbors in the residing areas. I'm talking about all of it. And I think that kind of helps frame it as far as like from the beginning we were operating with white privilege. Is the Harvard Stadium open to training?

Well, it's open. So we go in and we make it our home. And that's a very privileged way of operating. Yeah. You know. That's a super interesting perspective on it. I mean, that takes a lot of maturity to kind of own that aspect of it because it is easy and on some level,

you could make the argument correct to just say, look, we put this thing together and anybody can come. Like there's no closed doors to anybody, but to step back and really objectively deconstruct that from a systemic perspective to kind of own that, I imagine that took some work to get to that place. And then of course the question becomes, where do you go from there?

Right, like how do you, not to say that you did anything wrong, but acknowledging that you could do better, like what are the steps you put in place? Because it is all about community. Community is bread and butter of the whole November project. That's the ethos of it. So how do you like broaden that aperture to make it more welcoming to all comers?

I think even just laying out that context of like what it is, who it's for. And I think community members and leaders, people who have been once, people who are diehards, like if we can't see that access that we've had if we can't see you know one of my favorite stories from the boston days was like this police officer came and told us never to come back to this hill again and i i assured him we would seven exactly seven days from then and i i'm like talking to this guy with no shirt on like just barely respectful but like kind of having fun with the conversation. And he said, you know,

I'm gonna write you a warning today. And if you come back, it's gonna be to a couple hundred dollar ticket. Because it's too loud or it's a public space, right? Yeah, so he said, neighbors have complained. And I said, I don't think that they have. And he goes, well, you know, it's a sound ordinance violation.

And I was like, well, I'm gonna work on that. And he's like, well, just don't come back. And I said, I'll see you seven days from now. And this defiant nature of like, you know, the coolness of like being kind of just rad and like laugh in the face of authority. Like I need our community to see that that's how we built this.

Like I need our community to like, look at that as white privilege. And if like, if you don't wanna come along on that ride, like that's going to be hard. But your question was like, how do you go about and change that? I mean, you can't change the origin story, but acknowledging that had that been a black dude, you know, having that confrontation with a cop, it would have been a very different outcome. I agree. And I think the people that can watch the news

and see black and brown people being killed for traffic violations, and then play back that story I just told you, you got it, we got to see that difference. And so I'm really lucky to be part of this Tuesday night group called White Men for Racial Justice. And it's like a hundred dudes that jump on. I thought you weren't supposed to talk about that.

I'm gonna mention it, but then move on. And the reason I brought it up is because every Wednesday morning, then I go to November Project. And so like, I'm kind of waking up fresh off of this last conversation before I went to bed, before I got back with the community at November Project. And one of the conversations about this groundwater theory and like how racism is in everything.

And I think when people wanna solve things quickly and figure out how to make things right overnight, you come to this like barrier of frustration. And I think that's like the, that's the first reaction of like, how are we gonna fix this? How are we gonna fix November Project? Can November Project dismantle white supremacy?

And you laugh, but it's like, I think that dismantling white supremacy happens in small spaces times a million, right? And so if we can make small changes with the location that we host a workout. What does it mean to choose something in Dallas or in Orlando or in London? That's quote unquote centrally located. What does that mean? Centrally by whose definition, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, social media is such a toxic place right now, but I saw something that I thought was really great, which is like this idea of there's a big difference.

The line was, there's a big difference between all are welcome and this was built with you in mind. And I just thought it was super powerful. Like we were guilt-tripping half the city of like, oh, you can get there, get there. But we were really just talking to white folks we were connected to. Yeah, there seems to be this internal tension

with white people. On the one hand, this desire to participate in the solution, but also a cautiousness like, is this really my place? Is it appropriate for me to participate in this? Or is that gonna gonna come across as, you know, come across in the wrong way, frankly. And I think that creates a lot of paralysis. Participate in this meaning?

In the progressive movement towards change. Yeah. It's funny you say that. I always looked at friends of mine or co-leaders who I would consider activists, especially white folks that I saw wearing BLM clothing. And I always thought that they had done all the reading and that they were in it and they must have been experts. Or they had voted the right way and given their money there and were a mentor and, and also knew all the policies and they're, they're really fighting the fight every minute of every day.

And they've been at it for years. And, and this idea of starting somewhere, like one of our leaders in, in Kansas city, Nicole, I really admire her. She's like, just always boots on the ground, always having these conversations, always, uh, challenging white folks in her life and having conversations like, um, but she's always wearing PLM gear. And I always looked at her and like, I admired her and it was almost like, she's on the varsity team. I like, she's, she's an anti-racist, but I got to read a couple more books or like I'm not there yet. And I've had friends in my life recently just be like,

no, you have to start. If it's signaling with a yard sign, if it's a hooded sweatshirt, if it's donating, if it's the training that you're doing with November Project Co-Leaders, just continue in education, but then you have to go out and have these conversations. You have to go out and participate and build meaningful relationships.

And so anyway, I just, I find the bummer of a challenge is getting folks to take a step, to start something, you know? And it was so easy for me to talk about that when I was talking about fitness, right? And it was so easy for me to talk about that when I was talking about fitness, right? And it was so easy for us to figure out diversity and how to bring different kinds of athletes along, right? Like that was a really an easy one for us to talk about. But a lot of people, especially white people,

freeze up when it comes to like, I don't know where to begin. What about the person who doesn't wanna begin? Like you must have people in your life who really don't wanna engage with this, certainly not at the level that you've been engaging with it. Yeah. So I'll give you my answer.

For me, I've always said, and I said this to you back when we met years ago, which is like, I give people a lot of chances. And how that shows up in these conversations is that I'll meet someone where they are. I'll have a whatever pace conversation you need to have. I'll politely try and debunk and explain and understand where your positioning is and meet people wherever they are on the road. If someone says there is no problem, if someone says race isn't a thing, I think that's really a hard place to start. But one of the six community agreements for November Project is this idea of calling people in.

And it sounds so like gentle and a little bit hippie of like, don't call people out, Rich, that's too messy. Call them in. But there really is some truth to it, which is like, if you call someone out and say, well, that sounds racist. I think you're racist. Like how much could you even repair that relationship, conversation, like- You've basically ended any opportunity for moving the needle. I think you're racist. Like how much could you even repair that relationship, conversation?

You've basically ended any opportunity for moving the needle. And you've destroyed your relationship with that person in the meantime. And so to learn more, to learn more, to ask more questions and understand where they're coming from. I mean, that process takes a long time.

It takes patience. And if someone were to say, I'm not here for that, I'm cutting that person out of my life. I also understand that for them. But I recognize sometimes with white people in my life, I can make change by saying, tell me more about that. Is that really how you feel? Have you thought that through?

Or is that just kind of the people around you for much of your life? Like, where does this come from? Like, and I think tone is a tough thing, right? Cause we can come off pretty judgmental with just the wrong kind of angle. Yeah, tone's hard enough in person, forget about it on social media, it goes nowhere fast.

So. But it's so interesting that you, so you, you know, we went into the whole November project origin story the first time that we sat down and people should listen to that podcast. I love that conversation. So we don't need to retrace all of that, but it starts in Boston.

You ended up moving to San Diego and continue to build November project. And then how many years ago did you move to Minneapolis? Three years ago? So we moved here July, August of 2019. So a year and a half. Yeah, and now with everything that's transpiring in the city, making it literally ground zero

for the civil rights movement, right? Provides you with a lens into a level of truth that perhaps you wouldn't have been exposed to. And in turn, that gives you a level of truth that perhaps you wouldn't have been exposed to. And in turn, that gives you a depth of experience that you can inject into November Project to really make it a leader in this kind of new evolution of community fitness. I would like to think so.

I'd like to think so. I like- It's like almost divine. It was almost like meant to be, right? Like it's weird. It is weird that, and to go back, like so very happy in San Diego, we were married in La Jolla. We moved there January 1st of 2015, fell in love with the surf culture,

fell in love with the people, Goldies. My wife's sister lives there in Pacific beach. And we had a little baby, everything was, we're kind of living that renter's life, like kind of pretending like we could live in nice neighborhoods, but he just didn't have like a long term plan. And what if we're gonna have a second kid?

I don't know how that's gonna go. What if we wanted to buy a house? And meanwhile, like November projects free, I'm always like, how's this dude like pays bills? Like, how does this work? Right. You wanna get to that? Sure, yeah.

So we, I left my job. I was in marketing for a couple of years. I worked for the performance running team at New Balance in I think 13 and 14. Before that, I had some other like active lifestyle marketing jobs. And we signed a partnership with the North Face, which was strong for half a decade.

And that partnership fuels our leadership gatherings and put outdoor training gear on all of our leaders. And it gave us the ability to quit our jobs and not only work on November project full-time, but also build some of their community ideas around train. And then, so at the end of 18, we were in conversations with Brooks running. Our contract was up with the North Face

and a Seattle based run company, the name and running. And so that quickly changed kind of the way we talked about playing outside with all this winter gear with the North face to like, no run happy, be in the run, enjoy your run. And that relationship now is two years strong. And so that partnership piece keeps November Project as far as the investment of keeping the organization going.

It's cool. It's cool that a brand can get on board with that and they understand the value proposition because the community is so strong. And not for nothing, shout out to Des Linden, Brooks athlete, broke the 50K world record, crushed it by like seven minutes yesterday. Des went under three hours for 50K

to do the new world record for 50K of running and 50K of running for those 31 miles. I've done 50K a couple of times. It took me like a million hours. Right. And my fastest road marathon is three minutes slower than Des. She held 547. But Des is, did you see any clips?

I mean, were you paying attention to Josh? I was watching Josh's Twitter feed and we followed, I mean, we were on route to the airport and all of that, like trying to get here. So there was no live stream of it anyway. It was just a Twitter thing, but it was cool to see the level of Twitter involvement. Like the whole internet was like all about,

the whole running internet was like all about this. And everybody jumped on board to like celebrate this, which was really an event. It's a COVID event. Like she kind of, they mapped out this course and just kind of did it. It wasn't like a scheduled race or anything like that. It was so awesome.

Everybody was watching it. It was so awesome. We had our weekly Brooks call today. And we were talking about it with Lauren and Brian and Boyan and myself, the four of us are on a call every week. And we were just talking about kind of that, that like the attitude of just kind of doing it.

Like it was like, in some ways it was like real running. Like it's been a while since we've all like- There's kind of a November project flair to that, right? Like we don't need all this other stuff. Like here's the road. So cool. And like the finish line was like held up by Josh and another person.

It was like world record. Shout out to Josh Cox. Josh Cox, San Diego Padres team manager. Big Padres fan. Yeah, so yeah. And let's see, we have another partnership with an eyewear company in San Diego. Oh, but Des has come through a handful of times.

I've run into company in San Diego. Oh, but Des has come through a handful of times. I've run into Des in San Diego and Des also led one of our leadership only runs in Seattle when we brought everyone together in 2019. We call it the meeting of the minds. And so I know that a lot of November Project, especially the leaders were watching yesterday. So shout out Des, you're amazing. It's cool. Again. It must be challenging for you.

We're switching gears a little bit here. I mean, there's introverts, there's extroverts, and then there's extreme extroverts. I would put you on the far end of that spectrum of extreme extrovert, gifted public speaker, somebody who wasn't afraid to get on a plane and get up on a stage and get a bunch of people excited and to show up at whatever hour of the day

at a November project thing to get everybody fired up. And now boom, pandemic all out the window. Yeah. You've had to like sit with your, I mean, that's like an extrovert's worst nightmare. It's the worst. You might have to look in the mirror and like do a little self inventory.

Yeah, I was laughing at you and Honnold talking about this cause you guys were like, yeah, it's great. We don't have to go anywhere. And I was like, you and Honnold talking about this because you guys were like, yeah, it's great. It's fine. We don't have to go anywhere. And I was like, these guys are idiots. Yeah, you know, I do not love the social distancing. I do not love the masks. I don't love it.

I don't love any of this stuff. And, you know, I think early on in the pandemic, we all had to like say, I don't know if you remember this, but back when we thought it was weeks, remember it was seven weeks, or maybe 14 weeks or whatever, people would be like, oh, I'm getting tired of this. But you always had to say, but I don't have it that bad.

It was always you had precursor or followed up with, I'm doing fine. I don't really have anything to complain about, but here's how I'm actually feeling. And then the longer the pandemic went, people started, hopefully more often, but here's how I'm actually feeling. And then the longer the pandemic went, people started hopefully more often, but I definitely in my community, just sharing the drain and how draining it is.

And I mean, I have my November project answer and I have my personal answer. My personal answer is like, I realized during COVID that those little conversations that I thought I was having, you know, kind of engaging with the postal worker or the barista, like I thought I was like Midwest nice, like polite, like I thought I was doing it for them. And I, once you turned it off, I recognized like, that's also how I plug in. That's your fuel.

Right. And so, you know, you mentioned public speaking, like I don't lead workouts anymore. I help the organization of November Project, which leads workouts all over the world. And so, you mentioned public speaking, I don't lead workouts anymore. I help the organization of November Project, which leads workouts all over the world. And so that thrill of stepping up on a Wednesday morning and then, or even interacting on the community level, like with the folks, the people I see on my block, it was all just brought to nothing.

And so I was surprised at how tough it was. I thought I could like be just optimistic and just like stay positive. And it got tough, it got draining. I'm not surprised. I mean, I would have duly expected that you would have a harder go than most people. Yeah, everyone says that.

Yeah, and like my sister-in-law Zoe said one time when I got back from a trip, she kind of called me out. Like she kind of pulled me aside. She lives in San Diego and she goes, man, I think you're having even more fun on the road than you let on. And not like shady, but just like, she was basically referencing,

like I would come back from these adventures and I would kind of like play like dad role or husband role and be like, let's go out to dinner. And let's just kind of be a little bit more domesticated and kind of indoor voice. And that's fine because I just had a screaming, wild community driven, like togetherness, like recess gym class, the social structure all in one,

like the fire hose for three days in two cities. And like- You got it. You had that outlet. Right. You got fed. So you could come home and be present. Right. And not, you know. And so like, you know, even last year,

like the meeting of the minds and November project summit were virtual events. You know, it's like, okay. And you and I have talked about this in the past. Like how much can you lean into that Zoom? Like how much can you, everyone's on mute. You know, like how vibey can you get, right? And I love the challenge, but it's like,

what's an A plus like togetherness vibe? What does that look and feel like on Zoom? I mean, it doesn't compare to your worst lamest November project experience. But just also for context, like you don't even like to text or do phone calls. Like it's all visual. Like it's either FaceTime or leaving a video message.

First of all, Rich, they're called short films. We've gone over this. They're called short films because they're thoughtful and maybe artistic. Send me a short film. And you've bought in. Now has that affected, have you sent, am I your only short film guy?

No, I started doing it more actually. So there's, yeah, there's been, you've impacted me in that regard. And it is better. It's better. And then you can get to like the idea of like sneaking into, oh, by the way, I wrote you a letter. So I'm a letter writer.

I didn't know whether I was supposed to unveil this. I don't even know, oh, it's way, I wrote you a letter. You did? So I'm a letter writer. I didn't know whether I was supposed to unveil this. I don't even know, oh, it's artwork. I made some artwork. It's a shark. Oh my God, you use a typewriter. There you go, hipster points, hipster points. Now, the reason I'm telling you that, similar to the short film, man, it's like this.

Brogan, quote, BG, unquote, Graham, then you have your phone number and your address. You can file that away. I love it, man. The reason that fits with the short film is that during the pandemic we spent so much time on screens, how can I sneak into Rich's day? How can I drop a video to Keith Kelly in Utah

and when he needs the vibe, when it fits, right? Because we've all had that person calling you during the pandemic that you've even caught up with them for a while. I can't rev another rev, even for someone I love right now, I should probably give them an hour, it's been a while. And then you miss the call and it's kind of like, and that's for people that you like, you know?

So sneaking in. So if you're listening to this and you're a letter writer or you used to be, get back into it or send a video to your friend by way of text. Yeah, because that way they get to see you, they hear your vibe, but there's no implicit obligation that you have to get back to them right away. Right.

I like that. Yeah, so short films, what else? Vibey. I think last year was, the short films, what else? Bybie, I think last year was this kind of more than November project answer, but you know, when the NBA canceled, they put their statement out. We canceled like within 24 hours. Yeah, that was the day. That was the day.

That was like the Rubicon, right? No one could wait around. That was the day where everything shut down. Yeah. Like, the day. That was the day. That was like the Rubicon, right? No one could wait around. That was the day where everything shut down. We're like, oh wow, this is like real. And growing up as a Hoops fan, I liked that the world was waiting. What's the NBA gonna do? Okay, they're canceled.

Okay, shut it all down. But we, in all 52 cities shut down at the same time. And as a group that's never canceled for weather ever, like, or, you know, the only other time we canceled a workout was for the manhunt the Friday after the marathon bombing in Boston in 2013. And so it just felt really weird to be like, shut it down, you know?

And we recognize that our leaders might need a little bit of a breather. I don't wanna say break because that doesn't really like jive. These folks are just as vibey. And we shouldn't have been surprised, but all these leaders stepped up and they got their Zoom going

and they started hosting virtual stuff. And it was, I think it even seemed a little fun early on, but as those weeks turned into months and it was just like, oh, this is, oh, this is just how we do it now. The workout that you went to in West LA years ago, you experienced, right? They kind of come together.

A normal-ish in-person November Project experience is there's a crowd of people somewhere. You go in, oftentimes the new people get introduced. The leaders say what the workout's gonna be. And within a few minutes, you're moving. And the block of time could be 20, 30 minutes, but it's usually the full experience. You're back in your car, back on your bike within an hour.

And then the reason I'm kind of framing that up is that now in this Zoom era, these leaders, instead of just saying, Oh, you're gonna run up the stairs, ready, go. And then just taking pictures and doing a couple of flights here and there. Like they are truly fitness experience hosts, get ready, go. And then just taking pictures and doing a couple of flights here and there. Like they are truly fitness experience hosts, 45 minutes nonce.

It's almost like standup comedy of like. Yeah, you gotta be on a Peloton instructor. Yeah, you're trying to fill it. And so the vast majority of our November Project co-leaders are not fitness professionals. And so it was a lot of growth and it's pretty draining. And so. And how long did it go on in the virtual realm?

Cause you did one this morning. So you guys are back at least in some cities. Certain cities are back. You know, it's gonna be a longer road for some than others, you know. Toulouse, which is the one November project that we have in France and Southern France is, you know, they've got a pretty long road in front of them

before coming back in person. Here in Minneapolis, they've been back for, I think six weeks, maybe something like that. But they're doing it differently. So it's not like what you experienced where there's a hundred people, it's small groups in three locations. So now they're covering more ground.

They have three leaders, which is, that's normal. It's capped. So it's a signup sheet, which is on their Instagram. And there's a spreadsheet, you's a sign up sheet which is on their instagram and there's a spreadsheet you have to sign the waiver which that's really at odds with the whole spirit just show up right now it's like just showed up but like kind of changing yeah so 20 people per per location these three leaders emily e ralph and sarah they split up and going back to what we talked about like centralized location they're able to try things like which spreadsheets fill up first. And the extra digital step for such an OG,

like is kind of killing me. Cause it's like that doesn't fit the chest show up, but this is how you have to do it. Masks before, during and after. And like a ready set go plan for if someone gets COVID, what happens? What does contact tracing look like? What do group photos look like?

I mean, you remember with Maggie and Tara in West LA, it was like- It must have been 150 people there. For sure. And it was like, squeeze closer. Okay, now everyone lean on there. It was like very much like human contact times a hundred. And now it's like, so it feels different,

but man, if you've spent 10, 12 months not doing group things, it feels so good to be back. Have you had a situation where somebody tested positive and you had to do a contact tracing deal and figure out how to respond? Yes. Wow. Yes. And in those moments, I was very proud of the efficiency. I know that sounds like a managerial thing to say, but like, because I reacted like-

You're a human resources professional. No, I reacted, I was like, oh man, we're in trouble. We are, oh man, we're fucked. It's gonna, oh, this is gonna be a disaster. And then like the leaders here in the Twin Cities were like, no, we reached out to the 10 people and we followed the list of names from the waivers. And we reached out to them and let them know within a day, the list of names from the waivers and we reached out to them

and let them know within a day, the state of Minnesota considered it. It didn't qualify as a close contact because it was outside social distancing with master. Like they were just on it. And so we let them know that they should go get tested if they're interested and they don't. It was just like, they kind of did it.

I don't wanna say perfectly, but nearly perfectly right away. I mean, so that's the model we're looking at, you know? And look, I think with November Project, for those of us who remember those groups of a couple hundred people, Boston gets, you know, four or 500 people, same with Edmonton, it's like,

I think rather than holding on and being like, I can't wait to get back there, just be like, no, no, no, because we continue to change, like we're not going back. You're not going back to sweaty hugs. Maybe ever, right? And so- Well, I think that is, an important idea, not just in the context

of November Project, but broadly, whether it's what's going on in this city and how the world is paying attention to it, or how we're just interacting with each other and our professional lives. Like I think we need to, if we haven't already, disabuse ourselves of this idea of getting back to the way it was.

We're not going back to the way it was. We're going back towards something different, hopefully something better. But it feels like every facet of our lives is sort of being impacted by that idea. Yeah. And what that's gonna look like. And it's all up in the air.

Yeah, I mean, the really positive, like let's look at the brighter side, Rich, side of November Project during the pandemic was that you could argue it was the easiest time to join. You can do it from your living room, right? And so if you here in the Twin Cities wanna wake up and do the Zoom with Emily and Rob in New York City, you just gotta get up a little bit earlier.

You can play the time zone game and start with London at two in the morning on Tuesday night. I've done workouts with November Project Miri, which is in malaysia it's a small fishing town in malaysia on tuesday like i think it's at 2 p.m on tuesday you know what i mean so it's like the idea of like being able to easier have an easier route to drop in other communities and get to know people like it's a stretch especially for someone i just finished saying how much i like interact with no i No, I get it. I mean, listen, it's cool and it's not the same.

Like I just know this in the context of like 12-step meetings, you know? It's like, that's, you know, a different version of what you're talking about that gives me sustenance and fuel and, you know, a sense of purpose and direction and groundedness and all the like. And when it all goes to Zoom, yeah, I do it, but it's not the same.

And I do feel myself wanting it to go back to the way it was. And, you know, look, at some point, we'll all gather together. The way that we do that is probably gonna be different. But the challenge is getting over that refusal to engage now because you're waiting until that later moment,

because you're missing the opportunity in the interim. Yeah. By the way, how often do you go? Depends. I mean, the truth is- Is that a personal question? Tell me a personal question. Yeah, no, it's personal. I'm happy to answer it.

I mean, the truth is that my meeting attendance dropped off dramatically, you know, because it's on Zoom. And I was like, I just can't do another Zoom call, man. Right. And recently I found my way back to it and falling in love with it in a different kind of way because I was just waiting for it to go back to the way that it was. And it's, you know, it's the most important aspect of my life. And yet I couldn't get myself to log on because I just had Zoom fatigue and I just didn't wanna do it.

Yeah, the thing to add another hour looking at screens. We had a meeting with the board of directors for November project. And one of the board members who was newer to the community said, who are some of your competitors? And the joke and the reality is like warm beds in the morning. Because we're a morning only group, right? And when people are getting up and putting their shoes on

and going to have an outdoor experience, as opposed to opening the lid of a laptop solo in a quiet apartment, like it's just, it's such a wildly different thing. And yeah, I mean, look. But I would suspect that you are competing with the Pelotons of the world, like because everyone's at home and trying to find a workout at home,

you're free and you're an all comer deal, but without the group congregation aspect of it, now you're relegated to competing with everybody else who's doing fitness online. I wanna use this platform and I'm glad you came here just to let Peloton know, we're gonna bring them down. If you're listening Peloton, you're going down. Robin NYC, you're going down. Robin, you're going down.

Now, I mean, you know, like, and that's the tough thing. Like what you said about the meetings and waiting for them to go back, right? You know, running into people or connecting with people over, you know, online, social, whatever, and have someone say, you know, I'm just waiting until they're back. Yeah.

I'm just not doing Zoom. Like you almost understand it. Like the way I would speak to someone on the street years ago, I'd be like, dude, you got this. And I would chop down all Like the way I would speak to someone on the street years ago, I'd be like, dude, you got this. And I would chop down all their excuses. And now I just, we just have to be, people have to be more gentle to each other.

Our leaders in Atlanta are like, we're not gonna be pushy recruiters. If we get five people who wanna be there, that's great. If we get 15, great. But we're not gonna guilt a 16th person into showing up to a Zoom experience in the morning, not knowing all that's pushing and pulling them in their day, you know? So that's something.

How many cities are you doing it in person now? I think 15 or 20. Yeah. And the reason I give you that kind of hazy answer is in, so it's not even just a lever of Zoom or in person, there's different challenges, there's what's called flybys, where they'll kind of assign different locations

and like a kind of a less centralized hosted thing. And so, but full swing back with a big group, like pretty much none. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're in this weird in between zone right now, where we feel like we're emerging out of this situation, but we really haven't quite yet. Nope.

And we're all impulse to like, just say, come on, let's just get on with life. Right. And now like Minnesota is having a little bit of a spike as a result of that. I mean, California is doing really well right now, but. Yeah. And then someone says something about variance.

Let's also, those are all the buzzwords, booster shots, what else do we say? Yeah, I mean, says something about variance. Let's also, those are all the buzzwords, booster shots, what else we say? Yeah, I mean, just this idea of like springtime here in the Midwest, like I have to check myself a little bit and be like, just because it feels like we should be back, that means nothing, right? So have you had any like days in the 70s yet?

Like that first day where it's a blue sky and it's like 74 degrees out. And Midwestern folks are stoked. Just pasty white legs, just like Minnesota, it's wild. And yeah, like when I left San Diego, like it was one thing like we didn't, no one ever talked about the weather in San Diego. Right?

And there's nothing to talk about, right? And there is this gritty nature of looking forward to and surviving a winter, the Nordic ski scene and the fat tire scene, things that people, ice fishing, which no, I haven't gotten into yet. I don't think I'm going to, but I had a knee surgery this past winter and I spent a lot of time on snowshoes walking around

and talking to those people out there in the huts. You know, there's something that comes to life. I need to talk to people. I'm gonna put snowshoes on. I'm so desperate to talk to somebody. I'm gonna walk out on this frozen lake and knock on this hut. Well, and I use the same line.

So these are usually men, usually kind of standoffish at first. And here's my approach because i've lived here for a year and a half my approach is i've done this i've never admitted this i've done this probably 30 times 30 different ice huts uh lake minnetonka i live kind of near there hello hi yeah is this ice fishing? I just moved, yeah. Hi, I just moved here from Southern California. I kind of just like give them the whole story.

And then they'll usually show me the whole thing. This is how we drill the thing. I know how they do it. Right. I met a guy last week, but I keep that going. So I'm gonna play the new guy card for like, I'm gonna play the new guy. I might play it for 10 years.

You would have to pay me a lot of money to do that. I would just never, it would never occur to me to do that. And I thought it was a drinking thing. I always thought it was like some Homer Simpson, like Al Bundy, like get away from it. Like usually those guys are a couple pops in. I thought that, I thought it was like mostly about the cooler of beers and maybe a radio.

And I was so wrong. These are like sport fisher people, fishermen. So there, anyway, I was wrong about that. I was actually looking for like somebody big, you want a beer? Cause I just thought that'd be cool to have that experience. Yes, I do. You know, are we friends yet?

One of my buddies in San Diego calls me a friend hunter. He just, he says that I'm always, I'm always looking for like- What does Goldie think about that? The friend hunter? Just like the whole vibe. The general antics? Like when you go out in public

and she has to contend with the guy who's literally gonna walk up to every stranger. I think she liked it when we were falling in love. I think it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm not, I don't do low key really well. So it's like-

Well, you're not like on a trajectory towards a destination. There's a lot of stops along the way, right? Oh yeah, it's- So getting from A to B. Yeah, it's kind of, it's like a multi-dimensional kind of experience of like, let's go over there for a while, no reason.

I don't know, you know, but it's the reason that I think I have these really weird, interesting kind of occurrences. And I know that, I don't know, what's the Larry Bird thing? You miss all the shots, you don't tell something, you don't take, and so for me, when it comes to all the shots, you don't tell something, you don't take. So for me, when it comes to people, it's like, and I had this happen just this past summer

and it was towards the end of last summer. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna tell this story. My knee was still kind of something, my bike was in the shop, it wasn't happening. So I ended up rollerblading, okay? Imagine me rollerblading. I can skate. Okay.

Rollerblading through downtown Minneapolis. And now you see what it's like. And in my past rowing life, I got really good at checking out rowers on the Charles River. Cause I was a coach after I was an athlete and I would watch the way men and women would take strokes. Boom, boom.

And the body positioning and the shape and their build and even sitting down. But that's a tall person that seems like, oh, they could probably relax their upper body. I was scouting athletes and bodies. And so it's never really left me. And then how we've fallen into running essentially,

I'm still checking out runners. So last summer I was in rollerblading through downtown Minneapolis, which was a ghost town as it is. And I saw this guy who was just such a smooth, smooth runner. So smooth. Like you could put a glass of water on top of his head kind of thing.

And I admire that because I'm a big heavy runner, right? And my first reaction, because it was like 9 a.m. or something. It was like just after or just before nine. And I'm thinking, I'm kind of like doing the math. I'm like, so this guy's running in downtown. That seems kind of like a touristy thing to do. He's a really good runner.

Long dreadlocks, black man. Looked like he was between 20 and 40. So it's like, okay, friend hunter. Okay, this is great. And I'm like, and I stopped myself. I'm like, okay, Goldie says I talk to people too much. Okay. And then I'm not just trying to talk to a black guy.

Okay, but I should. But you shouldn't, don't go just trying to be friends. Hang on. And I'm like, I'm playing all this. I'm like, okay. And I kept skating, I skated past him. And I was like, Oh, I've, I've become someone else. You've defied your nature. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't proud. And so like a block later, I was like, and this is all going on in my head. A block later later I was like, no, that's not who you are. This, that's, you don't have a ton of skills. Maybe one of them is approach.

Maybe that is one. And this guy's gonna think you're an idiot and it's not, you're not gonna connect, but you don't know unless you try. So I pretended that my roller blade was like messed up. So I waited at a crosswalk and this dude rolls up. You had to create all this artifice. Totally.

Because you'd already passed him. Totally. Because you couldn't loop back around. Can't loop back. Yeah. And he's standing there and I go, hey, look, man, I noticed that you are an extremely smooth runner and I've got a running injury right now,

but if I were running, all these buildings would be shaking and you would know it. He got a big laugh, right? Skate with the guy for a little bit from Kansas City, visiting, he's here to work, very kind of just general. And I said, Kansas City, we have a November project there. They meet at the war Memorial on Wednesday mornings. You should go, you're a runner.

You're up in the morning-ish. Started talking, talking, whatever. We started following each other on social. And it turns out he's a journalist for the New York Times. started talking, talking, whatever. We started following each other on social. And it turns out he's a journalist for the New York Times. And he covers race and culture. His name's John Elgin. Shout out, John.

And I think he thinks I'm a maniac. He's the guy who's been covering everything that's been going on here for the New York Times. Yeah, he's the guy. Yeah. Trinidadian, Trinidadian, I've never tried to say that one, but we gotta try it, we gotta practice stuff. Rich, out in the open, public record, he's Trinidadian.

I probably butchered that one. Super, super calm guy, lifetime runner. Obviously he's an incredible writer. And he, someone from the New York Times recently said that he's so dedicated to his work, he pretty much moved to Minneapolis, which is accurate to that story. This is his beat.

He's gotta be here, right? And so then the only other part of the story where John Elgin and I overlap, and now I think we are friends and John, if we're not, just text me and you can just tell me, I'll shut it down. But he was in town to do a interview with the mayor and Jacob Fry hit me up and he said, Hey, look, I've got the New York Times in the morning.

I hadn't talked to this John elegant guy, completely out of my mind. I had the New York Times in the morning, so I should probably go with him solo. And I said, okay, you're the mayor, do whatever. And you didn't tell Jacob this story. He didn't know the story. Of course not. That's just a kind of a normal story.

Anyway, he meets up with some New York Times guy, it happened to be this guy, in the first 20 steps of the run, John Elegant says to Jacob, do you know, do you know Brogan Graham? And they both cracked up and it was like this great experience. And so the reason I'm telling that story

is not to celebrity brag on John or Jacob or you on the Rich Roll podcast. It is a story- You forgot what Jacob said, which was I blew off Brogan to go running with you. Totally. So the story is this, you gotta go in. You gotta go in.

You gotta go in, especially now living in the Midwest, being so close to Madison where I'm from, my brother lives in Milwaukee. It's starting to be kind of like, where did you go to high school kind of vibe, right? And I've been living in different coasts for the last 20 years. And so it's a cool time.

And I think the masks and the social distancing and the intensity that we're feeling right now, to me it just feels like restrictions and challenges of like, okay. Yeah, well, how did you become friends and running buddies with the mayor? Yeah, so when I lived in Boston and San Diego, a very dear friend of ours,

a very dedicated November project run, true runner, who actually got me connected to New Balance back in the day, Claire Wood, now lives in Portland, Oregon, went to high school with Jacob. And so when we moved here, she was like, you should connect with this guy. And I didn't really know. I mean, I didn't really know anybody.

So he's a former pro runner. Yeah, I mean, he's a 216 marathoner. 216. He got like fourth at the Pan Am Games or something like that, competed internationally for the US. He has to be the fastest, the most accomplished runner in elected office in the US.

Yeah, and then also just like another running fun fact, like a local, the mayor in St. Paul is also a former pro runner. Really? Like a sprinter, yeah. And so anyway, these twin cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, in my experience and growing up in a big college town, the capital of Wisconsin in Madison,

going to school in Boston, being around a lot of educated folks living next to Harvard and MIT, that whole zone. And then San Diego has got a lot of great things about it, but it's not exactly like a, you know. Intellectual hop bed. It's not where Good Will Hunting was filmed in San Diego. But moving here, in my experience,

it feels like the baseline level of local politics and activism and understanding of like those worlds. In my opinion, it's fairly high. And so I think Jacob and I hit it off because we both like to run in the morning. I didn't know very many people. And then when he would talk about work, I would be like, I don't love you, man,

but I don't know what the heck you're talking. I don't care. Like I care a little bit, but like not really. And I think he's got a world full of people here that he's got a lot of demands. But I would suspect that after living here for a while, you don't really have the latitude to not care. Like you quickly become somebody who cares

and you seem like somebody who does care. I mean, not about the intricacies of wonky policymaking, but just in terms of how local politics has a very real impact on the people that live here and what that means because of what's happening here to the rest of the world. Like it's very significant what's going on right now. Yeah, and I would say that I,

since the last year and a half of being here, I'm engaged. I think I understand what's going on, on a local level, but the people within reach in my life here in the Twin Cities are kind of more toward the activism. Level of? Right. Of what feels like unhappy, no matter what happens sometimes. And so that's hard. Yeah.

Like I think we should all wake up and do our part. And there's just always gonna be more work in any topic, in any part of this. I can't imagine the pressure that Jacob Fry feels right now to try to keep things intact. It's gotta be unbelievable. Yeah.

Well, you'll talk to him. And the extent to which running helps him like process all of it, I would imagine. I mean, he speaks on running the way a lot of folks in the November Project community speak on running where it's like, if you miss your run and you get that extra 90 minutes of sleep

or an hour of sleep, like it doesn't do as much for your day as had you traded that sleep for the experience, right? And so, yeah, he runs crazy hours. I should say his day is a long day that starts early. And yeah, I just admire, I admire people that are up out of bed doing something physical before they go into whatever their role is in any community, you know?

And so, I don't know, it takes a lot of criticism, a lot of shots from a lot of people. Yeah, there's a lot of vitriol and a lot of love, like it's split, right? Like a lot of people don't like the guy and a lot of people are on board with him and he's at the intersection and kind of the, you know, he's the, he's the sort of vehicle through which a lot of people can process whatever they're unhappy with about how things are going down right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and, um, you know, he's a,

he's a, he's a handsome, you know, really fast runner that like kind of, if people don't like him, they find a way to really not liking him. And he's a white man and he's also, this is a key piece, not from here. Right. And I think in a lot of cities, especially for the position of mayor, that matters a lot.

From Texas, where's he from? He's from Virginia. Okay. Where Claire and he went to, yeah. So yeah, and it's a reelection year, so. Right. But now I live in the Burbs, so I can't really even vote. So good luck, Jacob.

Good luck, everybody. Burb. Speaking of getting up and getting the run in so that the rest of your day goes well, that's something I did today. I can't say I got up all that early. I wasn't gonna make the November. Do you want a timestamp?

I was not gonna make the November project. It is two hours later here. So what time Pacific? So you ran at? I woke up, no, I woke up at like 8 a.m. here, I think. Right. Yeah, I woke up at eight. So I was like getting up at six. Totally.

And there was snow on the ground. But it's also in the wake of having done a podcast with Matthew Walker the other day, who's the sleep expert guy, and he talks about how important eight hours is. You gotta get eight hours no matter what. So I've graduated out of that, like, I have to get up at the crack

of fuck no matter what. Right. Vibe, which you're still on board with. I am. And as you get, I will tell you this, as you're senior, board with. I am. And as you get, I will tell you this, as you're senior, as you get older, that sleep becomes a little bit more elusive, especially when you travel across time zones and you're in hotels and stuff like that.

I'm only taking advice from older dads. Okay. That's like my new thing. That's one piece of advice. And we played this out a little bit because in kind of trying to plan the itinerary for this trip, you were getting all hopped up. And I was like, I had to throw a little brain because in kind of trying to plan the itinerary for this trip, you were getting all hopped up. And I was like, I had to throw a little rain on that parade because you're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. And I was like, whoa, dude, like I have to make sure that

I execute on these podcasts at the highest level that I'm capable of. And if I overbook myself, I'm not going to be prepared. I'm going to be tired. I can't just be running in a million different directions. Yeah, you did like a Papa bear, like reply all email that was like, it was very unfun. You were like, it's not, you were a downer. And, but just so you know, for future like trash talk

that will come your way from yours truly, like that worked. It was a good method. Right. And the email was, I think most of the cats in this room were on there. It was like, I need to focus on what I came there for. I was like, oh shit, sorry, dad.

But yeah, you know, like in tribute to you coming and that smackdown of an email. I was nice in the email. Yeah, you put me in my place. I also leading up to this, have been getting more sleep and with the ride to downtown and back, I've started calling that,

like I've been like nicer to myself to be like- Right, so you ride your bike in the city every day, which is 20 miles and you go back and forth, right? And I'll count that as my workout, right? So like, instead of having to get up and do something and then the ride, I've just been like, okay, Rich is coming. I'm gonna cut back on the beers, get better sleep

and just call my bike ride good enough. It's still 40 miles of riding. If you hit that hard, that's pretty good. Yeah. Anyway, so if I seem like extra on it today, it's because I'm getting better sleep. Well, this is what I want. Cause this is for the ages, my friend.

Totally, this is locked in forever. But speaking of the little jog that I did this morning, I mean, running around, we're right in downtown. I mean, I don't really know where I am. So I just kind of ran around the streets and the buildings and the bridges and stuff. Yeah, cool. It was eerie. Like everything is boarded up. Everything is shut down. Barely any people out. You see media, media trucks. You see a lot of tripods and cameras and, you know, people getting ready to cover what's going on. Yeah.

You had been sharing pictures of police presence and like Humvees and stuff like that. I didn't see that much of that this morning, but it was still pretty early. Perhaps that happens as we get towards evening, but it was strange, you know, it was strange to be in a city that I'm not familiar with. Just kind of, it's my favorite thing

to wake up in a new city and just, I don't even look at a map or anything. I just go outside and run around and try to get a feel for the vibe. Right. But there's like no vibe. There's no vibe. Because there's nothing going on.

And getting in last night, we couldn't get any food because there's no delivery. And like, it was like a whole, I was like, oh my God, we might not be able to eat. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Well, cause that was a travel disaster story

of like no food, I didn't eat all day. Well, I just figured like, usually the worst case scenario is you get like room service spaghetti, which we did, but it was really expensive and not that much food. And I was like, this isn't gonna do it. Now we gotta find somebody who's gonna deliver to us. And I ordered through DoorDash.

They charge your credit card and then they cancel on you. So like $250 later, I'm thinking like, I thought I had food coming and then they tell me, no, it's not coming, but we're still gonna take your money. I went into a mild panic. Let's see, the part about the police presence here right now is frustrating. And I know that this is a can of worms, so we don't have to get into this. But every time I see a Humvee or a bunch of armed guards with machine guns here in downtown Minneapolis, I wonder, I just think about January 6th.

I just think about what that staff looked like on the steps of the Capitol. So there's that. And then I want to circle back on something you said, because I told you some jokes last year that landed pretty well, which was just about how thoughtful your podcast was. But I was for the first time. So in my head, kind of about everything going on that I kind of, I kind of fell off the ritual podcast. Like, yeah, I know, but it feels good to say it on the show, right? So, but then, but one of the covers, so, but not completely,

I was still probably doing an episode a week, okay? Love John Sally that just, I love that he always has to go pick up his daughter. It's like my favorite thing. Yeah, he keeps having a bail. I love that. But in the conversation you had with Knox Robinson, shout out Knox, you examined something

that you just said just now, which was this idea of like, when you get to a new city, you like to go run around. I am completely the same way. But to the run world, to the white folks in running, like if you feel that same way, explore a city on foot, like it's so- And I never think twice about it.

And I've done it all over the world. Totally. I've done it in Muslim countries. Just whatever. You know, all kinds of crazy places. Globally just- I never thought about my safety once. Split shorts.

Should I bring a phone? Nah. Mm-hmm. And so like, again, like I try and find points of entry to see white privilege and like for the running world, like if you like to explore a city that you don't know on foot, like let's look at that. And so I'm not calling you out, I'm calling all of us.

Because I completely agree. When I travel, I'm like, oh yeah, what is Baltimore like? I'll just go trot around. And so I think that that's like, that's another way of looking at it. But when you had, so you were saying when Knox came out to visit, cause I wanna talk about that too.

You spent like a whole week with that guy, right? Yeah, well, I think so. And he was definitely on the Brogan itinerary. Oh yeah. And that was all shared in Technicolor on Instagram stories. Yeah, we used the phones. Yeah, there's a lot of phone use. We used that pink app quite heavily.

So I'd reached out to Knox last summer. Actually, I think I'd seen him in the sit-down that you had for the Rich Roll podcast, which I think you did in Los Angeles. It was like the black drape thing. It was when you started doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you started doing that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was like right after that, I think.

Shortly after that. And I wanted to amplify a voice of credibility in Run, but not just someone that, you know, and again, Knox doesn't speak for black people in running, but he has his own experience and he has his own set of identities. And I also know Knox and like ran into him at a million events and like, you know, he's got a kid and got a couple of kids now.

And so I've always liked him. And so I threw him the invite as we were getting ready to host the meeting of the minds, November Project Summit virtually. And it was just gonna be another piece of content. And yeah, he came out. Like one thing I didn't understand.

First of all, he said yes right away. Like he said, Knox Robinson said yes so fast. I was like, I was wondering if there was like a- Nobody traveled more during the pandemic than that guy. Totally. I would hit him up with a film. He went to Africa. He would send one right back.

He'd be like, yeah, I'm in Mexico city. I live here now. Right, he was living down there. Yeah, so anyway, he said yes so quickly. And it was a really beautiful conversation that we were able to share kind of just catching up on our timeline of like what the Black Roses was,

what they were doing when it was he and Jesse and how he sees run and taking over spaces. And it was, you know, we recorded that in my garage and it was great. I thought it was really great quality and beautiful, but it really was the time around, you know, riding bikes with the leaves changing. It was falling.

But yeah, I think that, I think having Knox here, you know, going back to what my mom said, it's like, there's folks in New York and Los Angeles and there's a lot of America in between, you know? And to have you here and have Knox come to Minneapolis, Minnesota, or the Burbs where I live now, it's like, it was cool. It in between, you know? And to have you here and have Knox come to Minneapolis, Minnesota, or the Burbs where I live now, it's like, it was cool. It felt good, you know?

And with all that's going on here now, it's just a reminder that like, there's a lot of communities that are going through a lot of hurt, you know? And I have friends in San Diego that still don't really know where I live. They call it Mindy Annapolis, Mindy Annapolis. Yeah, cause if you're not on a coast,

then you're just in some no man's land, it doesn't count. So yeah, so that was, those were important times. And, but again, that was for a gathering that's usually a couple thousand people called the November Project Summit and just have a virtual offering and a couple of live things. It was just like, you know.

So a lot has happened since the last time we sat down. A lot has happened. You got a kid now. I got a kid now. I'm a dad. You are a dad. I'm a dad. We've had some good dad conversations.

We have, we have. And I feel like that's my connection to you and this show, which is just like, I like people that are out there grinding. I like people out there that are athletes in whatever stage of life. But if you're a dad, I feel a connection to that. And so- You're born to be a dad.

Born to be a dad? Yeah. I'll take that compliment. You are like, I mean, you're like a dad dad. I'm in it. Yeah. I'm in it. Yeah, I think, you know,

I could have been a better dad to this baby. The baby thing is kind of like a lot of standing around, you know? And now that my kid is three, he turned three in February. So let's say, okay, so we did a podcast in February, 2017. My son, Lumi was born, Lumi was born. Lumi Graham. Look at that.

Was born. When I say you were born to be a dad. This is who I am. And my shirt's tucked in too. So if you're just listening and you're not watching, you're wearing a tie dye shirt. And I tucked in my shirt.

It doesn't just say Lumi's dad on it. It's like sewn onto the front of it. Yeah, and your shirt, when you're a dad, you should just start tucking in your shirt too.'s another thing get into jogging tuck in your shirt read the paper i got i got the print on sunday now so i'm drinking coffee reading the paper on like an ancient type of letters i mean it's and i you know i like on the here when you just give me your phone number you did the plus one and then in then in parentheses, zip code. Like it's the 40s. So my shirt's tucked in, I'm reading the Sunday Times

and I'm ripping out typewriter stuff. Yeah, so Lumi, yeah, so he was born a year after the thing when we sat down. I've said this before to friends and I said it on a couple other things, but I was traveling so much during that time that I was a little freaked out that I would not wanna be home.

Does that make sense? Like, cause you hear sometimes friends of mine that are men, that are dads do that kind of, oh brother, oh man, it's a lot. It's stressful, it sucks or whatever. Being at home or being on the road? Being at home. Right.

And so you also hear lots of guys talk about how stressful it is to be traveling all the time. And I think one thing you and I share is like, I love, I'm like, I'm not that guy. I love airports. I love like everything. It's like, I get to time travel. Like how cool is that?

I'm nowhere right now. Right, I'm in the Houston airport. I know I don't exist. So I was traveling so much and so thrilled by that. And like my sister-in-law said, I was coming to life on the road. I was concerned that like, I'd be one of those dads that like,

you know, like problematic. Like I'd come home and be like, wah, wah, this sucks. You're like Jeremy Renner in the grocery store looking at like detergent and breakfast cereal. And just being like, get me out of here. And I wasn't that way. I still came to life on the road, but like I was when I was home

and I think Goldie could say this for sure. When I was home, I was home, you know? And. But the ability to be fully present and grounded at home is informed by getting fueled up by those experiences on the road. Yeah, and I think when people talk about exercise to make yourself the best self

so that you can be in relationships better, you can be at your best self at work. And so to keep up yourself, you know, and for me, that also applies to like the social engagement, coming to life on the road and And not even really late nights, not even really like in nothing too like, you know, R-rated, nothing that fun, like traditionally, but just still being myself and a dad at home,

being individual, but also being married, you know, like I think you fall into those things of like, that's your role, that's all you are. And so I was really pumped to come home to that little baby. And now that he's a toddler, like he actually is fun instead of like, I think we love our baby. He's getting bigger, diapers. He's like a year or two of that, you know?

Yeah, they start becoming real people. Yeah. And then it gets really fun. Yeah, and you know, and so now, so almost every day, on Monday through Friday, I have on my calendar Lumi time, which is like around five o'clock until he goes to bed, which is like six, seven, eight, depending on whatever. And it's awesome.

And we go stumble around the woods or like pretend to go fishing and like just kind of fumble through stuff, you know, climb trees, like it's like the stuff, and I hate to be this way, but it's like, we got a big front yard, big backyard. It's like, it's kind of why we moved here, right? So, and those of you who are on the Instagram that follow Goldie, she announced yesterday

that we're having a second kid. I know, it's exciting, man. We're having a daughter, we're having a little girl. You are. Which is great, we have enough white dudes. There's enough white dudes. There was a little bit of a, you were like thinking though.

Well, what I was thinking, you know what I was thinking. You know what I was thinking. I don't know that I know. Well, I think that the understanding and the growth in our society, but definitely in my household and definitely for me personally around like gender

and what matters and identity. And then going to this baby gender reveal kind of vibe of like, we're having a, like, I think I thought if I was paying attention, we're supposed to not like even talk about it. Or like, it seems outdated to pop the balloon and the pink confetti comes out and we say, girl, and that means dresses.

You don't want fireworks. Right, so I remember seeing people on social media being like, we're doing the reveal and being like, what? I didn't know we're still doing that. So that's my pause. Yeah, I don't think, well, I don't know what it's, I don't know, I guess it might be a regional thing too. I don't know, it depends on where you live, I suppose.

But the progressive notion is that we no longer do that. We're not doing that. And so then this is like, man, all right, tell them the story. I came home on my bike, my in-laws were visiting, Jen and Gary were visiting and I was a little bit late and i could tell goldie was agitated she's like we're doing the thing we're doing it i was like what are we talking about her mother had had talked to the doctor on the phone so her only person who

knew if you're having a boy or girl was jen and she had gone to the store and got a big balloon and we were doing a gender reveal and in that moment i had to decide like be scrooge and ruin christmas and like take the energy out of it. And like, we're not doing that. And her mom, it's like a nice thing for her mom, whatever. And I even said to Goldie, I was like, are we doing that? And then I realized like, shut up, shut up. Don't ruin the moment. And it just, but just, but maybe we can, it goes back to the, it goes back to the anti-racism. It's like, maybe I can have a conversation with Jen and I can ask Goldie, we're not going to post the pink balloon popping. That's a bad, we're not doing that, but maybe we can engage and have these conversations. And then we all kind of win. I wish we didn't do it. We did

it and we popped it. Okay. So then I was kind of Scrooge on the inside and smiling on the outside. Okay, cool. I didn't stand up for much. Okay, great. And then we sent it to our really good friends in San Diego who have a boy and a girl. And they sent us back a video of them watching the reveal. And they were jumping up and down and screaming and crying. And it was like so beautiful. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. Okay. So that's just a lot of words.

I don't gender reveal. It's complicated these days. Right? Yeah. So we're having, so go back to the top. We're having a girl. Congratulations. Thank you. We're having a baby. Yeah, it's cool, man. No, we're stoked.

We're stoked. Yeah. I love the videos that you share online with you and Lumi and Goldie. It's pretty cool, man. Yeah, thank you. We're stoked. We're stoked. And with a mom named Goldie and a dad named Brogan and an older brother named Lumi and Goldie, it's pretty cool, man. We're stoked, we're stoked. And with a mom named Goldie and a dad named Brogan and an older brother named Lumi, I think we should name this girl Sarah or Katie.

Just go straight up the middle, you mean? Like Emily, middle name Elizabeth. Just because you need a straight man. Right. You can't have, everybody can't be completely wacky. I mean, let's be clear. It's not just Lumi, it's Lumi Cobra. Lumi Cobra Graham.

Where does that come from? So when we found out, when we found out we were pregnant, when we found out Goldie was pregnant, new age stuff, and this is a dad thing I'll teach you, cause you're a little bit further down the road, apps, people have tracking apps, okay? So you say like, oh, you know, there's the due date and then that kind of every week will be like,

oh, now it's the size of a grape and- Yeah, I missed all that. It's cool, but it actually is cool. But you have to put in a placeholder name. So the app will spit out, it'll say like baby Graham or something. And so, and Goldie's a yoga instructor. And so one of the poses is called baby Cobra.

It's like you're laying on your belly. You kind of lift up, whatever. And I don't know how we plug that in, but it's kind of cute. She was still teaching. So I'd go to her classes and she'd say, let's all come into baby Cobra. And we all kind of wink at the wife.

It was beautiful. It's great. But the further we got like into her pregnancy, we're looking at each other like, we're referring to baby Cobra. Like we're talking about, oh, I can feel Cobra. You know, it's like, we started looking at each other. We're like, okay, she's Goldie, I'm Brogan. We're like, are we really doing this?

This is actually gonna happen. We've gone too far. And then she's looking at me like, and she's outrageous with the names. And so she was like, she's looking at me like for the voice of reason, she's looking at me as the voice of reason. And she's like, I don't think we, I don't, what do you?

And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I guess this is gonna be what it is. And then we're just like, what is that? What does that do to a person? Send them into the world as Cobra? The pasty white San Diegan. But you can get away with it as the middle name. Right, so we hit it.

Yeah. So it's kind of like- If you're coming in hot with Cobra as the first name, that's a heavy load. So now it's kind of a parlor trick because how often does your middle name come up? What's your middle name? David.

David, it's so boring, so is mine. Mine's pretty much David, mine's Christopher. Same thing. It's the same thing. That's the same, they got those names out of the same pile. Does yours have significance? James, Steven.

Right. Well, it was my grandfather's name. Yeah. My grandmother, so my kids' great-grandmother's maiden name was Rocker. And I think that's a cool first name. Yeah. Anyway.

What if I married a rocker? Right. Then that woman's name would be Rocker Roll. Rocker Roll. Roll in the blank roll rocker roll yeah taking roll call yeah by the way i want adam's job uh you're gonna have to come and do some guest hosting spots like and and i the reason i'm the reason listening to his you're a good hype man i would be into it well and the thing is the reason i'm really i really despise that guy stuff. You're a good hype man. I would be into it. I'll give you that. Well, and the thing is, the reason I really despise that guy is because he does a good job. And I like him.

Adam's very good. Yeah, I mean, with the four- He's risen to the occasion, for sure. And it's been great. But I also, I reached, you know, one of the things that I had in mind when we were thinking about this tour and these live events was I wanted to have you involved.

And we talked about it because you're like the ultimate hype man. It'd be great. Get out on stage and get everybody excited. It'd be great. And I'm still down to do it. That was one of the many ideas that we've canceled on. Adam has job security though.

Yeah, what does he do? He's my hype man. Is that his full-time gig? No, he's a New York Times correspondent. Got it. Contributor. He's an author. He co-wrote Dave Goggins' book.

Right, right, right. And he's written his own books and he's working on a novel. He co-wrote Dave Goggins' book. Right, right, right. And he's written his own books and he's working on a novel. He does lots of stuff. It's called Roll On when the two of you are just chopping it up. When those episodes come up, because I want his role so bad,

his job so bad, I press play on those podcasts like this, like an angry. You hate listening? Yeah, I'm like, this is stupid. And then I listen to it, I'm like laughing at this stuff. I'm like, no. Here's the thing though. to it, I'm like laughing at this stuff. No.

And I'm like, I'm using the discount codes and shit. There's a lot of work that goes in behind the scenes to show up. We have this robust outline. He's reading all kinds of stuff. We're talking throughout the week about what we wanna talk about. Homework is involved.

But I'm like this kind of like, I'm like a field reporter, kind of like I volunteer my marketing ideas and you said Goggins. So I've got to roll this out. This, I throw you ideas and like nonsense, like all the time. You mostly get back to me. And I remember talking to the phone.

I wouldn't say mostly. No, you do. You get back. Do I? But you, one time I threw this idea. We're on the phone. I think we were actually faced. I think we might've been on the telephone.

You know, smartphones still have a feature where you can just call someone. We were on the telephone, good old fashioned telephone call with Rich Roll. And I was like, oh man, I was on a bike ride. You don't remember this. I was like, I was on a bike ride and I thought of this funny shit because I was listening to you

and a couple of key words came up. Do you know where this is going? I think so. Yeah. And I was like, you got to do Rich Roll bingo and just like have these bingo boards out there. And then when people hear like a key word,

they can like, they can play along. I know so many endurance athletes are like doing like, you know, marathons and stuff, but it was the one time in our friendship where you were like flatline. You were just like, it was, with your silence you said, I don't like that idea. Like this drinking game whenever I say some word

that I always say all the time. Totally. Yeah. And you, so when I'm in the creative space, you pay attention to those moments where someone's like, oh, that's a bad idea. And you're like, okay, we'll finesse it this way. But instead of doing that, I just went ahead and created it.

Yeah, I know. You know, did you see it? Well, you started mocking me. You were mimicking me on Instagram and you did like, so, well, let me preface this by saying, when I was getting ready to go on this trip, my boys who are now 26 and 24, who have been living at home since the pandemic,

I'm like, I'm going to Minneapolis. I'm gonna see Brogan. And they're like the Instagram takeover guy. Yeah. They were like, I love that guy. So you would go on Instagram and pretend that you're, oh my God, you were taking over and then you would act like me.

I would pretend like Rich did a takeover of my handle and I would like speak like very thoughtfully and unpack a lot of things. Talking about homework. So this is, and then you can do this. So this is, and this won't catch on. And I didn't talk to Adam about this. If people are just listening,

you literally handed me a bingo game chart. Read what it says from the top. It says Ritual Podcast Bingo, how to play. Tune into any episode of the Ritual Podcast. Yep, any episode. You can go back and there's like a thousand of them. Link for keywords and mark each space with a cutout piece below.

The first listener with five in a row will win. Many will play, many will win. Yeah, piece. Piece, long pause, plants. Now read some of the keywords here. Yeah, on the chart, the keywords. I like how at the bottom too, you have a little scissor thing to cut out

like your poker chip. This is interactive. This is like a lot of work. This took me 25 minutes of love for the organization. So here's what you get on the bingo card. Can you say it again? Rich roll bingo. Can you just say it?

Rich roll bingo. It flows. It's nice. Yeah. All right, go ahead. John Joseph is right there at the top left. Top left, yeah. So let's go back to the beginning. So let's go back to the beginning.

Refuel, gut health, endeavor, Goggins, mindset. There's gonna be a lot of winners. Ultra health decoding.com slash rich roll. A lot of that. Yeah. There's a lot of that. Because now you're doing those in the middle of the show. Right. Right. Studio, right in the middle.

You just have the symbol, like the Prince symbol. Is that upside down? I couldn't figure out how to put that right. It goes, which I think you did it right. Authentic, spirituality, recovery, Julie, precipice, new book, subscribe, hindsight, an even deeper look, swim, run, paradigm busting and vegan.

I was gonna do the cheese that your wife, what's Julie's cheese? You're missing a few here though. Oh, Shreemo? Shreemo. You're missing a few. Well. Oh, Shreemo? Shreemo. You're missing a few. Well, you can unpack. I thought that was your favorite.

That is my favorite. Let's land this plane. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't wait. So what you could do is you could knock this all out. Like you could just really rich roll it up in the first 10 minutes. I think everybody would win in short shrift.

And then they get a discount code for 10,000 shorts. All right. I appreciate the effort. Thank you. And I like how it's colorful. And you used all the fonts and everything. I just, look, I'm gonna keep coming with ideas. What do we do with this though?

Raise money for charity maybe. There you go. Yeah. Rich Roll Bingo is on. Okay. Rich Roll Bingo is on. But I'm serious about next time you blow through Southern California, you got to drop in on a session with Adam and I. I would love to.

And kind of chime in and participate in the roll on endeavor. For his shout out, especially with the Goggins thing that he did, the four by four by 48. I was walking on Lake Minnetonka in the frozen, whatever. And I was listening to him talk about running and then you talk about training. And it was like this really beautiful thing where he, and I hope this isn't insulting. I mean it as a compliment,

but he was talking about running in a way that more people can relate to. Like, I don't want to call him a couch to 5K. He's way more than that. But it was like, he was approaching run with like, I think he said like 25 miles a week, like trying to get into it. And you were like, phase two, hang on.

How are you? And you were like, you were trying to help him, but it was almost like you guys were like, it was like too far a little bit. And I thought it was awesome. Cause you have so many listeners who are super serious athletes, but also people who move a little, you know?

And I thought it was beautiful. No, I think Adam is very relatable in that regard. Like he's aspirational in the things that he's trying to do with his running and his swim, run and fitness and all that kind of stuff. But I think he does sit in the position of, you know, more of the listeners in terms of like how they think about these things.

Yeah, and then how did it go? Did he crush it? Did he do the thing? He did great, yeah. I rode my bike down and like checked on him a couple times. Was it, did it get ugly at the end? He got, he did pretty good. Jason over here actually did it as well.

So they were checking in with each other throughout the whole time. That's awesome, that's awesome. Yeah, I was coming off the knee thing. I was not gonna do that, but I was stoked for him. Were you uncomfortable that you couldn't rise to the occasion? Absolutely.

Instead snowshoeing out on a Lake Minnetonka, like looking for fishermen to talk to you. It's surprising you haven't started a podcast. Too much work, man. That's it? Anybody who could put together this podcast bingo chart could probably- Rich roll podcast, you just gotta say the whole thing.

Rich roll podcast bingo. Okay. The Goggins thing is crazy. TM. I will do, totally. I will do the four by four, 48. Goggins has been on your show, now I'm not joking, but Goggins has been on your show like four times?

No, no, twice. Oh, okay. He's in the twice club with yours truly. No, but I am inspired by Goggins. I liked, Goggins called a friend of mine's dad who was battling cancer. This was just a few months ago and left him a voicemail. Wow.

And you know, Steve Prognol. Yeah. So it's his dad. Yeah, yeah, wow. And the two, the Steve and his dad, you know, read the Goggins book and the whatever. And so I'm not even a huge Goggins fan, but when I heard his voice,

like in this really matter of fact way, talking to Steve's father about taking this thing head on and like, you got this, I was just like, okay. I got Steve on the phone and I was like, well, you definitely have to do the four by four before, you know, and it was like, he only had a few weeks and he's in great shape, but I don't need to know much more about Goggins

cause that was like a really well placed, perfect. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Steve's dad is doing much better. That's cool. So Steve's the, he's the November project leader in Buffalo. Yeah, yeah. And he's like one of the earliest fans of this podcast.

And, you know, frankly, he's a friend of mine that I get to know through November Project. It's cool, he visited us at our house several years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, he came on in 2017 and they've been doing a great job in Buffalo ever since. He's also like Mr. Connector in that city, like everyone knows him.

But yeah. Back to Lumi. Back to Lumi. Yeah, so in your dadding, I guess he's probably not old enough to really understand kind of what's going on in this city that he lives in, right? Do you feel like you,

can you talk to him about all of this stuff yet or not? So can you talk to him? So I have friends that are most excited about anti-racist work through the lens of being parents, right? And what history classes we took and what things we learned about the United States and like, how will that look for this next generation? And so I'm very interested in that. And I'll be completely honest, I haven't begun those conversations. He has a hard time sitting still and we, you know, he's into coral reefs and things like that,

but not too far off to be honest. And, you know, I was speaking to some other dad friends where, you know, especially last summer here, living in uptown and the very organized peaceful protests and some of the riots, like I remember seeing it, whether it was on TV or just listening, just out my front window and thinking like, I gotta be out there.

That's, I wanna be in the mix with people. One of the leaders in San Francisco reminded me this week that like there are other ways that you can have as much or much more impact. But going back to what we said earlier about who I am and how I connect and how I participate. Yeah, I would imagine you're like, I need to be right in the middle of where all this is happening.

And I'm like, honey, I gotta go. And she's like, you're not leaving us here, that vibe. And so that was a real like push pull for like the fatherhood thing of like. What is your responsibility? Right, right. Where is your time best spent? Yeah, and so, but I did,

and I still do take him out on the bike seat, little bike seat on the back, dad life, man, tuck in the shirt, kid goes on the back. And we would go to some peaceful marches and protests and things. And I would talk about how these are mommy and daddy's friends and everyone's wearing black and black lives matter.

And we've been to the George Floyd Memorial. Now it's called George Floyd Square. I went once by myself and then the next day I took just Lumi. I didn't let Goldie know. But then the three of us went the next day. which has its own kind of set of opinions, which is just kind of this tourist vibe of like going to the place where this unarmed black man was killed. Yeah, which is something we're gonna,

I think we're gonna do after this podcast, right? And it is a loaded thing. Like you don't wanna be a looky Lou, like how do you approach that with the correct level of like respect and appreciation? It's not about your Instagram moment. Yeah, I mean, and this was a conversation that came up with Knox when he visited.

You know, I said to him and I said to you, which is like, if we don't go, I understand. From a personal point of view. I think it's important. Any steps closer you can take to the reality, I encourage. And I know I'll get blowback for just even saying that. And for me to take my kid there and my wife and we took pictures and, you know, again, supercharged with privilege. But like George Floyd and our move to Minneapolis,

and I don't know how much longer we'll be here. He could go to college at the U, this could be where we are forever. But if we aren't, or if we are, his first history lesson that he lived through that he knows is George Floyd. And we went to the place where he was murdered in broad daylight.

And look, if there's some judgment there, and not only do I understand it, but I see it. And at the same time, I think keeping kids in cocoons and not telling these stories is absolutely wrong. Yeah, 100%. So then it's, you know, you know that corner on Chicago Ave is, you know, point four from where we lived, you know,

I ride my bike on every corner of the city. So yeah, we're gonna go. One of the things that we've talked about a couple of times on FaceTime with respect to, you respect to being a dad is the challenge of trying to figure out like what that means in 2021, right? You're no longer Don Draper who's going out and doing whatever as long as you're paying for everything. Right.

You can't just be the super sensitive guy. You're expected to be strong, but also emotionally available and vulnerable at just the right time. You have to be the good listener, but you also have to be the person who knows how to erect the boundaries while making a living that's gonna support the people that you share a home with.

And it can be overwhelming and confusing to know what that roadmap looks like for you. Yeah, I think it's a stress that it's also not cool to complain about. There's not much of a space for men to be like, wow, this is a lot. Yeah, I think you're supposed to have, you're supposed to, I got this,

you're supposed to be on. So yeah, it's complicated. I mean, being, yeah, I got this, you know, you're supposed to, you know, be on. So yeah, it's complicated. I mean, being, yeah, I got like, that's part of that is yes. And part of that is part of the problem. For sure. You know what I mean? Like just being like, I'm just gonna buckle down and solve the problem. Yeah.

Isn't necessarily how you solve the problem. Right. And then what stereotypes do we continue like supporting? And like, what do we still think is like the husband role thing? Like, for example, like around the house shit, like I didn't really want to necessarily move to the birds we did.

And like, now we've got this house and the house has like a water heater. What the hell is a water, like furnace? I don't know. I'm just saying things now. A sink, I knew that one before. Carpet, wood floors, things. So, okay, a lawn.

Okay, now I've got my shirt's tucked in. It says Lumi's dad. I'm pushing a lawnmower. So, okay, a lawn. Okay, now I've got my shirt's tucked in. It says Loomy's dad. I'm pushing a lawnmower. It's all coming to life. But I've gotten some shade from like the moments where Goldie's like, hey, can you fill in the blank, build the dresser or like hang the lights

or like the thing. And like- I can't do any of that. I can't do that stuff. And then I grew up in a house where we were kind of always doing projects and things, but like, so it always, especially in my new like suburban house life,

it feels like fail to like call like a real guy with a tool belt and he owns the saw to come saw my stuff. If the washing machine breaks or whatever. Totally. Yeah. And so like, as if we buy a house and the dad then knows how to fix a dryer same day, it's like, what are you talking about? So I think pushing back on,

so it would be like, you know, the stereotype. And I tell Goldie this, she's like, are you pissed? And I'm like, yeah. She's like, well, explain yourself. I'm like, I don't know. Like, you know, that's like a dad thing. I should be able to replace the ceiling fan or something, you know?

And a lot of my homies listen to that. Pissed meaning disappointed in yourself because you feel like you can't live up to that. That's the role. That stereotype. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I threw it back in her. I was like, that would be like me saying your cooking sucks.

Like you can't cook. And then she's like, well, I can. And I'm like, yeah, shit. Yeah, you're a pretty good cook. Okay, maybe I should learn how to fix a ceiling fan. You know, these stereotypes, like what our roles are. And so, I mean, going back to just the one-on-one time with your kid, putting your phone down, and like how you talk to kids. Like the generations before us and also some of us had parents that didn't have all those conversations, but didn't, weren't so open. And, you know,

I really admire the parents who have a relationship with their kids where, you know, for most of their childhood, for sure, maybe up until they're teenagers, are coming to their parents and asking questions, right? Yeah. And if you don't have that communication open, who's that on, right? Yeah. Mother or father or whatever, whatever, I think that's on the parent. So those are some good goals that fall outside of the roles and the stereotypes. It's just like, I think I can do that. I do that with a lot of my friends,

a lot of my guy friends. And so- One of the things I've learned as I continue to try to figure out this parenting thing, I've said this before, but the older boys are my step-sons. I had a hand in helping, you know, navigate them into young men, but I wasn't their dad, but I was around all the time.

So I feel like on some level I participated in that. Do they know their dad? Yeah, and he's since passed away and their dad was great and he was a great dad. So I was always very, you know, respectful and cautious not to overstep that boundary. With these next two who are my children, it's been a lot harder.

And when I thought I had a grip on what parenting was, I'm continually challenged and brought to my knees in ways I would have never imagined. And one of the things that I've learned, to get back to my original point, is no matter what you do, like that pendulum swings back and hits you in the ass. So when you're like, I'm gonna be the open dad

who tells them all this stuff, they reach a certain age and they're like, why are you telling me all this? Like, they're angry that like, you should just be like, I appreciate that. They reach a certain age and they're like, why are you telling me all this? You're an idiot. Like they're angry that like, You're an idiot. You should just be like, I just need to know that you've got it under control.

Right. You know? But if you were that guy, then they'd be like, why didn't you tell me? You know, it's like, Totally. It's rigged in a way that you're not gonna win. Right, right.

You're in this like weird mouse labyrinth that only leads to like, you know, damage control. Right, right, right. And learning how to like come to terms with that and be okay with that has led to, you know, a lot of pain, but also some hilarious conversations with my wife. And is that for the two younger kids, was that always that feeling

or was that mostly teenage years? No, this is all kind of coming out as they reach teenage. You know, they reach a level of sentience and look, kids will try to identify by either becoming more like you, like they're gonna take your lead and look up to you and be like, I wanna be like dad, or I wanna be like mom, or they try to craft their identity

in opposition to who you are. So we're in that right now, where it's like, whatever we're doing, that's definitely the wrong way to do things. And they have to figure it out for themselves. And as a parent, you're like, well, let's give them that opportunity, because you want them to push their boundaries know, their boundaries and figure out like what

works for them and what doesn't like that self-exploration, that differentiation, that, you know, trying to figure out who they are in the world as they get older. But at some point you got to put the guardrails up, right? But where do those go? Like, it's just, it's so confusing, man. You're stressing me out. Let's go back to fishing. And I said to you, like, when you, when you said like, oh, we, you know, we're, we're going're stressing me out. Let's go back to fishing. And I said to you, like, when you said like, oh, we're gonna have another baby. I'm like, good, well, in 15 years from now, you'll be going through that.

Totally, totally. No, there was definitely like, you controlled some of this story. You controlled the pacing on this, which was like, you said some very sweet things over the years. We were like, oh, I remember washing my kids in the sink and time flies.

And when I see you with Lumi, I miss that. You know, it's like, I'm not in that stage anymore. And I have to remind myself. And it's so precious and just being 100% present for that. Like it's such a cool time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like, I just like, it cracks me up. Like for whoever's listening to this,

imagine if Rich Roll was your dad. Like how wild is that? Like, and then you talk about the pendulum swinging. like, so like what? So like they're eating beef nachos, like, and they're like, just, they think you're, they think your shit is just terrible. Basically. Yeah. You don't know. But one of the funny things that Julie, Julie and I will then go, like, when we're talking about it, she'll be like, we'll just joke and be like, there's all these people out in the world. They would love for us to be their parents. Totally, totally. Because you know, this thing like younger people do,

um, it's like internet speak in YouTube comments. They'll just say, dad, you know, like dad, like, Oh, like you're the mentor that I need in my life. So I get those comments on you. Like dad, dad, dad. And I was like, but my kids, they're like, no. Bonehead. No bueno. Yeah, totally, totally, totally nothing. But I mean, when you were a teenager, what kind of teenager were you? I was a super goody two shoes. Were you? Yeah, I was a grinder.

I mean, I was, I got into, I mean, when I was around 14 is when I started to get serious about swimming. So it was all about swimming and then it became all about school. And I was very judgmental of anybody who was like out having fun and messing around. Cause I was like very directed. But I was also socially awkward.

I was not a good looking kid. Yeah, you were socially distancing back in the. You did it first. I was an OG social distancing. Yeah, you started this whole thing. I had weird looking glasses and bad haircut. And you still do. So I know, right?

No, I mean, like that's the thing that I'm fearful of is, I mean, I was a really bad teenager. Like going back to that Harvard Stadium comment and the commentary about race, it's like we would bend and break every rule. Like the story, and I only have one other sibling, an older brother, he's like, we would bend and break every rule. Like the story, and you know, I only have one other sibling an older brothers, two years older. And he was a little closer to your end.

It's just, he didn't break as many rules, but like, you know, I was this big when I was 15 and a half years old. Wow, that's a lot of energy. And so my folks are divorced. And so I spent time in both houses, but like my mother had her hands full with us. And so I just think about how I use my creativity and my energy back then.

I had a lot of it, social connections. I had a lot of like traditional popularity and I used all of that to like fuck around. And like. And so how did you slowly emerge out of that? How did I slowly emerge out of that? How did I slowly emerge out of that? It was a couple decisions towards the end of high school in what felt like really last chance opportunities.

And going back to the commentary on race, like this world wouldn't have been as patient or kind to some of the things I did and got away with. If I weren't a loud, charismatic white kid, captain of the basketball team, kind of like that guy. I got into rowing at the end of high school. I barely graduated high school, but I got into rowing because people said like, you'd be pretty good at it. And there's college opportunity maybe, but whatever. And I got into acting in high school. Other than that. Yeah. We talked about, we talked about that on the first podcast. That's the, that's the like less known. That's the, yeah. That's the B plot. Yeah. You could have gone this whole acting trajectory. Maybe. I'm too big. I'm

too big. But anyway, so, so, so I picked up, I got into acting in my senior high school, I got into rowing, and these were two like cult worlds on their own, and they both grew very quickly, and they both were taking me away from that idea of, I just didn't, you know, I was kind of overdrive. And so then college became a thing, and then Boston became a thing,

and then I was surrounded with a bunch of, definitely not straight laced, but like goal driven, rowerower type kind of preppy, kind of hardcore, like jock dudes, college division one college athletes. And from there you kind of like. A bunch of Winklevii. 100% those guys are out there.

And so, yeah, so that was it. But we still played in the margins and Saturday night still came. And like, so when it comes to being a dad now, it's like, I don't, I wouldn't, I would be freaked out if I had, if he saw my playbook, you know what I mean? When it comes to like ruckus.

So anyway, we'll see to be continued. Yeah, but you know, the universe, God, whatever you wanna call it, rigs it in a certain way that you'll get your, your buttons pushed and you'll get challenged in ways that you can't foresee. Totally. You know what I mean? And it's like, it puts right in front of you,

whatever it is that you need to look at within yourself. 100%. And I love that. I mean, the challenge of being a dad, right? That's the hardest thing I've done. And it's, I have a friend who's about to become a dad in like a couple months. It is also, there's no second place.

Like there's not even like, there's no podium. It's like the first, second and third best thing I've ever done, right? So it's so cool, right? Yeah. And it's the hardest, it's so hard. You just give up everything. This should roll out on Father's Day, actually.

You could bank it. When is Father's Day? It's like June or something. Maybe it will, we'll see. Yeah, you've gotta give this one some air. Well, if we're gonna do that, then you gotta take it out. You gotta take it out on a positive Father's Day note.

Yeah, on a positive. Typewritten letter to the erstwhile fathers to be. Fathers to be. Francis St. John in North County. I tell new dads this all the time. It's not like anything. It's not like going to grad school in late nights. It's not like being tired or sleeplessness. There isn't a comparison. And you also don't love anything like this. It's not like your favorite team's home game against the Yankees. It's not like the best experience, you know?

And so I don't speak this way that often, but I really believe in it. And so, you know, when that comes planned or otherwise, and you're going to be a dad, it's like, don't try and understand it. Just live it, live right through it, you know? And keep your eyes wide open, you know? And keep your phone far away from you.

And ironically, still take a lot of pictures somehow. And drink a lot of water. Hydration. Say please and thank you. Hydration. I actually don't care a lot about the rules in our house. Like we're gonna raise Lumi this way, but I drill the please and thank you thing my dad did. So if my kid is like this wacky loud mouth,

but he says please and thank you a lot, I'm fine. That's good. Yeah. So to pick your battles, I would say that's an important one like how you think you're gonna shape your kid. Good luck, it probably won't go that way. But if there are things that are worth picking your battle for stick by the please and thank you thing that's that's big so and then um and then don't don't think you're gonna figure it out i used to surf with a guy who told me with all confidence he was three or four

weeks away from becoming a dad he said yeah we decided we're not really gonna do a stroller we're just gonna like i don't know i We're just gonna like, I don't know, I'll probably just get like a backpack or something. And like, you know, Coachella's coming up. So like, we'll probably, I mean, definitely still going. And I was like, and you've done a good job of this biting your tongue. But like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, like keeping your own opinion on the side.

There's times when you know it's not about you. Yeah, so. Let me know how that goes. I was like, cool, yeah, no stroller, dope. Meanwhile, I didn't ever think otherwise. I have three strollers. You know what I mean? So this idea of controlling the future.

To my dads out there, you will never get the credit. And there's so much more to do. And being a positive male role model, I think, is an important thing. It's the best. And guide your kid to a life with anti-racist work in it. Cause I think that that's the place where we can make the biggest change, the quickest change, even though it seems like years and years, decades and decades, like,

I think those are the changes we'll see quickest. So. Beautiful, man. There's only one thing that I would add to that, which is in those moments where you're being tested, which are gonna be more frequent than you expect. And you feel like I gotta get out of here cause I gotta do that thing or I'm gonna call that guy.

It's just like, remember, like this passes so quickly. You know, I've been doing this for a long time. And when I see the videos of you with Lumi, I'm like, man, it doesn't seem like it was that long ago. And then I look at my kids and they're so much older and you forget how quickly it passes. And just to be able to be present and appreciate what's actually transpiring.

It's great to say, put the phone away, but like, how present are you? Like we're gonna climb a tree and just forget about what your agenda is and just be. Cause it's not about like, I'm gonna create the ultimate day and we're gonna go to the amusement park. It's not about that.

It's just like, just be present with the kid and give that child your full attention. And that's the most powerful and greatest gift that you can give. It's really well said. It's not the stuff, it's not the right hamper. It's not the right wall color. It's not the crib.

It's just like, if you can do those things, you could be playing in a bucket of sand. It doesn't matter. So that stuff, man, I really connect with that. So once again, Rich Roll, it's been an honor, my man. I love you, brother. Love you too. Yeah.

I'm really proud of you for coming to the Twin Cities during this. Why? You gave me a reason to go on an adventure too. That's true. And I'm really happy to be here. And I feel excited about what I'm gonna learn over the next couple of days. Yeah, yeah, it's an important time. And I feel excited about what I'm gonna learn

over the next couple of days. Yeah, yeah, it's an important time. You know, before people start talking about what we're doing with our hours in this time, during this time and the sensitivity around it, it just, let's agree that it's an important time. And if you're a storyteller and if people listen to you and you have influence in a platform, which is undeniable, then you belong here.

You need to be here. So. Thanks, man. Yeah. Thanks for bringing me out. Peace, plants. Namaste. That's awesome.

We did it. Yes. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do

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subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Allie Rogers and Davey Greenberg.

Graphic elements, courtesy of Jessica Miranda. Copywriting by Georgia Whaley. And our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter at Rich Roll. I appreciate the love. I love the support.

I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Yee-haw!