The Rich Roll Podcast - Brogan Graham On Igniting A Fitness Revolution

Episode Date: March 6, 2017

There are leaders and then there are followers. The best leaders engender devotion to a big, new idea. But only a few successfully grow their conceit into a thriving a enterprise that withstands the test of time. Fewer still scale to mainstream cultural impact. Then there are the charmed select who simply see the world differently. Not how it is, but how it could be. How it should be. The rare figure who infuses his or her vision with a contagion of enthusiasm and connectivity so infectious and powerful, it ignites a revolution – catalyzing a movement that penetrates the mainstream, hypnotizes the masses and forever alters the perspective and behavior of all who fall under its spell. This is the story of Brogan Graham — an irreverent, way-outside-the-box fitness fanatic who, along with partner-in-crime Bojan Mandaric decided to flip the fitness industry on its head and make the world a better place with a creation dubbed November Project. No gyms or machines. No fees or dues. Just two dudes, wide open public space and a fervent, gung-ho tribe of thousands taking over not just urban landscapes but the world, one city at a time. If you’re into fitness and live in a metropolis, chances are you've already caught wind of NP. Maybe you've even attended one of their infamous morning workouts. But for those unfamiliar, November Project started as a simple month-long workout pact between Brogan and Bojan, two former rowers who wanted to stay fit through the cold New England months. One by one, a burgeoning community of fitness freaks joined the party. And before long, the few morphed into a fanatical multitude, bonding around NP's free, open-to-anyone, frentic sweat revivals – the more ice, sleet, snow, and rain the better. Dubbed “the ‘Fight Club' of running clubs”, November Project has matured into a flashmob fitness revolution that now dominates the pre-dawn urban landscape of cities all across North America, Europe, the United Kingdom and even parts of Asia. Thoroughly grassroots and populist to the core, it's a category-defying movement that is redefining how we think about and practice fitness by leveraging community, a simple sense of accountability and open public spaces to motivate and encourage people of all ages, shapes, sizes and levels — welcoming everyone from Olympic medalists and professional athletes all the way to complete fitness rookies and recent couch potatoes. The idea: use movement to turn strangers into friends and connect everyone to the city in which they live. The goal: world domination. This week I sit down Brogan — one-half of the beautiful high-energy, charismatic superhero duo that birthed it all — to find out how he did it, and why. I was super stoked to meet up with Brogan. From the minute he pulled into my driveway and gave me a bear hug (he's a big dude), I knew it was a bromance in the making. I have a strong feeling this is but the first of many future collaborations. This is an amazing conversation about the power of community and storytelling to drive positive cultural change. It's about the audacity to dream big, think different, and act outside the box. It's about the freedom and power of being you. And it's a conversation about unlocking untapped reservoirs of human potential to step into your best, most fully actualized self. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

Try a lot of different things and stay fired up. If you're not fired up by your gym, quit your gym today. If you're not fired up about your job, make a plan and get out of there. Or not, but make decisions instead of just sitting and complaining. I would recommend, whether it's November Project or just the Buffalo Wrap, just trying new stuff. whether it's November Project or just the Buffalo Wrap, just trying new stuff, you know? And I think a lot of people love the ethos of,

yeah, like trying new things and meeting new people. And yet a lot of us don't talk to people on the train or get to know anyone at the other table. And so I would urge people, whether they're younger in their younger stages of life or they're in their last stages of life, that these little ripple effects, whether you're the leaders in Boston sending a thousand athletes out into the city of Boston with smiles on their face to create a true ripple effect on a Wednesday morning, or if it's something as small as just having a small conversation

while someone pours you that cup of coffee, I think that those little moments really matter. And I know that seems a little bit elementary, but we as leaders and members of this fanatic movement are proof that the shit can happen if you try new things and you're willing to just go outside the box and do it wholeheartedly. That's Brogan Graham, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. There are leaders, and then there are followers. Among the leaders, there are people that have an idea, people that create a brand,

or perhaps a business. Fewer among these leaders grow it, and fewer still turn it into something super successful. And then there are the select few who see the world differently, not how it is, but how it could be, how it should be. These are the people who convincingly take their vision for a new and better way and ignite it, ignite it into a movement, an idea that catches fire, captivates people, alters their behavior, their attitudes, their perspectives, and permanently changes lives. Basically, I'm talking about revolution. And that's exactly what Brogan Graham did when he and his buddy, Boyan Manderek II, a reverent, way-outside-the-box fitness fanatics, decided to flip the fitness industry on its head and make the world a better place with the birth of something they call November Project. No machines,

no gyms, no dues or fees, just two dudes and a tribe of thousands taking over the world one city at a time. If you're into fitness or you live in a metropolis, chances are you already know what November Project is, or at least perhaps you've heard of it. But for the uninitiated, NP started as a simple month-long workout pack between the two former rowers to stay fit through the cold New England months. And one by one, people started to show up to join them a couple mornings a week for a free outdoor group workout slash community revival meeting, no matter what the weather. The more ice, the more sleet, snow, and rain, the better. It's been called the Fight Club of Running Clubs.

It's basically this insane flash mob fitness revolution that dominates urban landscapes and cities all across North America, Europe, the UK, and even Hong Kong. It's a movement, I think it's fair to say, that defies all categories. And it's become successful by leveraging not just movement, but also community and a simple sense of accountability and public spaces to motivate and encourage people of all ages, shapes, sizes, and fitness levels. Everybody from Olympic medalists and professional athletes all the way down to complete fitness rookies and recent couch potatoes to really redefine what fitness is, what it can be, all to turn strangers into friends and connect everyone to the city in which they live. And this week's guest is one half of the beautiful,

high-energy, charismatic superhero duo that birthed it. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to my podcast. I got a couple more things I want to say about Brogan and November Project and our amazing conversation before we launch into it. But first, I wanted to let you know that my friends Kip and Keegan, the filmmakers behind the amazing documentary Cowspiracy, if you're a longtime listener to the podcast, you're familiar with these guys. They've been on twice, episodes 91 and 176. So if you miss those, definitely go back and check them out.

Well, they're back with a brand new documentary. It's called What the Health. And it's a groundbreaking follow-up that explores the relationship between our food, our food systems, and the powerful government, big medical pharma, and health business interests that are making us sick and keeping us sick. I've seen it. I'm in it. And I can tell you that it is super-duper powerful. sick. I've seen it. I'm in it. And I can tell you that it is super duper powerful. I've got a new podcast with the boys. That's all about the new film, including when and where you're going to be able to see it online. And that's going to go up next week. But in the meantime, I wanted to

announce that we are hosting a live screening of the documentary on March 29th in Thousand Oaks, California, my neck of the woods. I'm going to be hosting it. There's going to be special guests, plus a plant-based dinner by Joy Cafe, our restaurant partner, and desserts from Karma Baker, our dessert partner, all vegan, all plant-based. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be awesome. For tickets and more information, go to whatthehealthfilm.eventbrite.com, whatthehealthfilm.eventbrite.com, and I put the link uh to that in the show notes all right i was super stoked to meet up with brogan uh from the minute this guy pulled into my driveway and gave me a big bear hug i knew that this was was a bromance in the making, and I've got a very strong

feeling and inkling that this is just the very first of many collaborations in our future. We even made a fun and silly two-minute little trailer video for the podcast episode. You can find that on my YouTube page. I've also embedded it on the episode page for this episode on my website, richroll.com. So check that out. Really fun. In any event, this is a conversation, of course, about Brogan's life. It's about the birth and growth of November Project. It's about the power of community and the power of storytelling and the power of social media to positively impact and change culture. It's about thinking and acting outside the box, how powerful that can be. And it's about unlocking untapped reservoirs of human potential so that we can all thrive and

live our most authentic, most fully expressed, most actualized, healthiest selves. So this is me and Brogan, and I hope you like it. Good to finally meet you, man. This is the best. I know. It took a little, it took a minute. Some organization. I know.

It's cool, man. It's awesome. Huge, huge fan of everything that you've done, everything that you're about. And just stoked to get into it with you, man. It goes both ways. Like I said to you when I arrived here, people that I think very, very highly of speak very highly of you. So this is a total honor to be here. I appreciate it, man.

Yeah. And you're coming in hot because you were just up in Alaska on a digital detox, like eight days off of social media and everything. One of my toes is actually – yeah, one of my toes is – Are you okay? Are you breathing? I'm thawing. I'm thawing. then i'm thawing i'm thawing um yeah last week i was up in yellow knife uh at a folk rebellion digital detox retreat folk rebellion folk rebellion is a group that's all about um you

know putting your phones down and living a little bit more um in the moment and those kinds of things yeah i'm not getting nervous already yeah they believe in rock and roll and stuff like that so it lined up but my wife goldie was uh given the opportunity the last minute to teach yoga so like we kind of made a quick decision and we were on like a bunch of airplanes and eventually we're landing on a frozen lake in the middle of nowhere it's great it's cool that you can kind of like spontaneously do stuff like that yeah well and we don't have kids right and i think one day we'll be able to say like oh sorry we can't go and usually we could i mean it was it was awesome the timing was awesome so yeah we also have a november project los angeles and um yeah just starting the week off with a bunch of bunch

of miles on the subaru forester right well you're i mean traveling is like your basic mo right how many days out of the year are you on the road you know i think last year was the kind of the peak of everything i think it was two and a half or three weeks each month i was gone which made you know southern california it was kind of hard to like get used to or kind of wrap your brain around it you know i'd lived in in boston downtown boston for like 13 years and so trying to decode what it means to live in you know the slow times of southern california especially san diego yeah and then not even being there. Right. So when people, I'd be on the road, people like how San Diego, I'm like, I don't know.

I do laundry there. The first through the fifth. Yeah. It's a bump and run. Yeah. Um, but I love it, you know, live in the dream of, of, you know, what my co-founder Boyan and I talked about years ago, which is like, what if we could, you know, jump on airplanes and go check on these tribes and spread the movement of this crazy thing that we kind of just made up well i uh i checked in with

our mutual friend uh caleb daniloff a little shout out before the uh before the podcast you're your co-writer on your book and uh and i was like hey man hey caleb like what should i brogan's coming over what should i talk to him yeah and he gave me few ideas, which I may or may not get into. But one of the things he said. They're bad ideas, I'm sure. Well, one of the things that he said that I thought was really interesting was, you know, talk to him about the sort of audacity that you had over, like, birthing this thing. Like, the idea that it could become a worldwide phenomenon right yeah it was something that you guys were talking about and believing in when it was just a small

little tribe of people showing up in boston yeah yeah um so where does that where does that come from you know that like sense that You know, that sense of possibility. I don't know. I think that November Project, you know, we talked about what we were doing at November Project and what the workouts were like at November Project and how we were. It was just Boyan and I. Right. You called it November. Right.

Oh, yeah. Two of you. And, like, we would be, you know, at our respective apartments, and he'd be telling his wife, well, tomorrow I have November Project. Well, that was just go meet up with me and do push-ups in the snow. So November Project, for he and I, was just something kind of like everything else we did in college, where you got to give it a name, and then even if it's really stupid,

just believe in it until someone else says it, and then it's alive. Well, when you give it a name, then it's real. Totally. And so that first month was just a spreadsheet because we're such rower-type dudes. We want to have miles, average pace, conditions, details, what time you took a dump, everything. And so it was like, Nate, what's a spreadsheet called? And then once that was up and running, we started the shirts and believing in these workouts, but it was a number of months before we even had anyone.

But, and how long ago was this? So the first month, November, the original November project was just, uh, November, 2011. And just before we even get into it, maybe just describe what November project is and like how big it is now. Right. Describe what November Project is and how big it is now. Right. So November Project is a worldwide community, free early morning workouts that are for all levels.

It's super inclusive and fun, but the price of admission is $0, but it's a full 100% effort. So if your grandma comes and just wants to walk, that's cool, but you better walk your ass off. And if a professional athlete stops by, that's cool, but you know, you better show us your wheels, Timmy Olson or what, you know? So,

so, uh, in that we get to see a lot of different kinds of athletes in a way that some fitness, uh, fads don't, you know, you look at,

what do you mean by, well, meaning like, I think, uh, like CrossFit's great, but it's prohibitive because of cost and the movements are pretty intimidating and so it ends up being a room full or a box full of really fit people period end of story and some people go

there to try their first steps in athletics but usually not right whereas we have a really positive culture of like come one come all but be ready to work your butt off. So I think a lot of new athletes are born, whether they're in their 20s or they're in their 50s, or maybe they were never picked in gym class. And when they're doing these workouts right next to someone who was the gym class hero or is a professional athlete, I think that goes a long way. Yeah, inclusiveness is like a key theme of the whole thing. Like just having that welcome mat that says, we want you to come show up. Right. You know, like you walked in my house, you gave everybody a hug, right?

That is bringing that kind of energy into the whole idea. Yeah. You know, and to go back to, you know, what Caleb was, you know, kind of getting at, I think. So that was the fall of 2011. And in 2012, we didn't really have anything online or a Twitter account or a blog or anything until the spring. And that was when November Project was hosting Wednesday morning workouts and the tweets went out to nobody. Right. So how long before it became three people? Um, so it was just Boynton and I, you know, I think our first member,

her name is Sarah Wilds. She gets brought up quite a bit. I think she came out in the spring, April, May. And you guys were your crew guys, crewed together in college. You were coaching crew, right, at the time at Northeastern? Yeah, so I coached for four spring seasons, four years at Northeastern, where we had both rode. And Boyan was actually doing his grad school work and coaching at Syracuse. So we actually rate our crews,

raced each other at some events, which is awesome. So it wasn't a stretch for Boyan and I to hold a space and say, all right guys, quiet down. We're not going to, we won't get going until we have everyone's attention. We knew how to coach and lead a practice or a workout.

And, but it was pretty funny that first day that sarah showed up because she kind of walks in kind of confused following some random tweet by so you tweeted it you're like it's just the two of you it's time to expand so we're going to tweet out yes one woman shows up so we tweeted out and then my my buddy who was doing the marketing at um uh marathon sports which is a specialty running shoe store in Boston. He retweeted it. And I think at the time they had like 2,000 followers, which for us was like the entire world.

Right. And this is early days of Twitter too. Yeah. And so, you know, but to have people that really care about running, local Boston specialty run, like Sarah Wild was a former Division I athlete. She played some years of pro soccer. She worked at New Balance.

She's all things running. But she's also a really polite personality that shows up, and she just kind of comes around the corner and says, is this November Project? I mean, we lost our shit. We thought it was the coolest thing. But was she expecting a big group of people? Well, I think kind of a legend has it that she's like told her,

uh, maybe boyfriend or dad or something like, I'm going to this thing to meet these guys in the morning, in the dark. It sounds shady and it might be. So I think that she was, she shows up, she's like,

yeah, it is shady. Yeah, exactly. You know, like it wasn't exactly like, you know, we gave her the brochure.

It was like, we kind of went in for the hug, I think. And then three of us just started running up and down the stairs at Harvard. And I kind of accidentally spoke down to her a little bit more in a way that felt inclusive of like, hey, look, this workout is pretty tough. We're going to go from here to there all the way around a pretty good amount of work. If you want to do this as your first time would be to do half. And that still is the rule in Boston.

We didn't know we were dealing with like the total wolf in sheep's clothes like she she was like okay well we'll see but what she meant was like some version of like i'm gonna destroy you guys crush you yeah and so i think we came through section 19 which is the halfway point she was still right there with us not really breathing as hard as us and um back in the day we just did random then they still do random things in the boston tribe but the first thing was hey look if you can finish this thing today with us uh i think it was under 30 minutes i told her to buy her buy her a large pizza which is like you're kind of in the heat of battle you know your lungs are burning your legs are on fire you think you're gonna pass out or throw up and then someone says i'll get you a large pizza i mean the whole thing was just so

weird and of course she finished it out and of course her time was fast but then i also hooked her to buy her back for the next wednesday so then the very first photo we have on our blog if you go all the way back is sarah after her second workout holding up a large frozen uh dijono uh-huh i think it was like a supreme right that just gives you all the options right right okay so so you got your your triangle right and so it is getting real very real yeah and and it was there so i i assume it just sort of progressively grew from there was there like a tipping point moment where it exploded or was there like was it a gradual thing or yeah like a couple there was a couple there Like a couple. There was a couple. There were a couple keys that spring, summer, and then definitely the next spring.

So that spring, you know, Boyne and I started off kind of ahead. It's not like we were new to town. We had a bunch of buddies that were kicking around that were good athletes that still wanted to train that had been to the Harvard Stadium that knew what was up. People who have known me for more than a few years know that I paint T-shirts and talk a big show. And sometimes it turns into something. Usually it doesn't. And so there's some sort of level of hype and something's going to happen with all the right people. Goldie Coffinberg, who's now Goldie Graham, my wife, at the time, I just met her.

And she came out to like a November project like a month in or something or, you know, a few in. And she was the first of like seven people there. And she said to me when she left that day and she said, do you want me to blow this up? Do you want me to like make this into something in kind of a confident way where I was like, who do you think you are?

We know, you know, I actually remember my, my answer was like, no, just a little, I'll get, I'll get back to you,

you know? like, no, I'll get back to you. Goldie is extremely connected through her yoga community in Boston. I don't really care how this sounds or how you cut it, but that's a lot of predominantly female athletes. Sure enough, in the next few weeks, she rolled through with 20, 40 people um and it changed it changed the the game yeah and boyan and i at that time were shooting photos and posting albums and trying to tell a big story um but you start posting photos of the women that she was rolling with in the day running up and down stairs in the sunshine i mean we started getting interest pretty quickly yeah well that's how you're getting getting more guys that totally well because we and then we said at the time we're like well because the key is men and women like training with attractive women that became the line and like

it might not be pc but like that was that was kind of what we were throwing i get it but but the idea like the big idea was always there like the idea like we're gonna blow this we are gonna blow this thing up right we're trying to create a movement. Well, so I think early, so I would love to sit here and be like, this whole time. You masterminded it from day one. This was the idea, but it wasn't. We were just fanning the flames, I think, especially early on.

We, you start, you know, there's this picture that I have in my head, but it's also on one of our first Facebook albums, this black and white photo of us looking from section 37 down the stadium and it's different size athletes in the foreground blending out to the back. And I remember that photo thinking it looked like a tornado of people and it was total mayhem. I think there was 35 people, you know? And so, and now just for context, you're getting how many people showing up at Harvard stadium?

You know, our biggest day there is 1,400 people. In the summertime on a Wednesday, if you combine the 530 and the 630 group, they could see 1,000 people. And so that summer was really interesting because it was the lockout, the NHL lockout. And there's a really cool, kind, badass community guy who was floating around, a defenseman who had just won the Stanley Cup with the Bruins.

Number 21, Andrew Ferentz. And he was doing the stadium on his own. He went to a bike shop, Landry's Bike Shop on Com Ave, and the dude who owns the place knew what we were up to, and he said, hey, you should go when these guys go. So Andrew came out right when we had hit 100 people, and we had just made the promise to our tribe of 100, which to us at that point seemed like 10,000. We said, if we ever break 300 people in a single workout, we'll get November Project tattoos.

And that was like, that seemed just like pretty impossible. Well, Andrew has a ton of ink and he loves a challenge and he's huge on Twitter. And so one week later. I mean, it was insane. And it was awesome, too, because, you know, Goldie brought the yoga people off their mat. Andrew brought people that showed up in their jerseys that wanted like an autograph or a photo, a selfie with him. And he was so cool that he was like, let's get moving. Like, you know, he's not he's never above taking a photo or being kind. I mean, I've been with him in situations where he stopped and given even too much time for

a fan. It's just so awesome. But in this setting, he's like, no, no, no, that's not what we're doing here. November project, the price, the price to play is you got to move your body. So let's go. And so there are people still to this day that came out because of Andrew as Bruins fans that were transformed into new kind of. That's super cool. Folks. to this day that came out because of Andrew as Bruins fans that were transformed into new kind of.

That's super cool. Well, it was also a really interesting time because social media was really, you know, starting to bloom and blossom in a way that kind of merged perfectly with your kind of messaging or your kind of efforts to get the word out. Right. So here you are, you're in,

you know, you're basically around Harvard, the birthplace of Facebook, Zuckerberg's old dorm did you crew with the winklevi so they were on the water at the same time as us they were a little bit younger um a little bit faster a little bit better looking uh and there was two of them yeah um but yeah harvard and northeastern guys don't have the best history. If there was a working class blue collar team in Division I rowing, we might be that. I know that's an oxymoron.

The Charles River is an interesting place because there's four Division I teams there. Or five. BC is a club. Imagine if Michigan and Ohio State shared the same practice facility for football. It's insane. There's a lot of... You come around the corner and under a bridge and there those guys are again that you got to race in april so um but you guys sort of knew early on like look we're going to use social media to to get a foothold here and and create you know that's going to be a major tool in

community building here and really leveraging those tools by like posting the photos and you know making sure that you're tweeting out and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. What was the, you know, what was the role that social media played and continues to play? Because it feels like it was instrumental. Yeah, absolutely. And I say that that time was like a hot spot, hot moment in time where like at that point it felt like everyone for the first time really was on social. And like folks had their parents on Facebook even if they didn't really know how to. Like everyone at that point, it felt like everyone for the first time really was on social. And folks had their parents on Facebook, even if they didn't really know how to.

Everyone at that point had an account, whereas five years prior, it was still new. So people knew how to operate it. And people knew how to kind of see their photos and kind of make it happen. The first thing that we had was a Twitter account and then a blog. And that was back before Twitter could post photos. So immediately, we saw these moments of like, I mean, the Harvard Stadium is so hard. It's like a heroic effort. Plus, it's a stone facility.

It's super old. It's like almost no matter where you point, you know, digital SLR camera, it's going to turn out epic. I mean, everyone looks like, you know, Gladiator. Right. You know, so right away it became, you know, we got to get these images out there. away it became, you know, we got to get these images out there. And our process, mostly credit to Boyan on this, was about keeping the content really live time. So if we have our workout on Wednesday, you know, we shoot 200 photos, you get them chopped down to 70, edited, blog post, and you all package it out and push it before the middle of those athletes morning

you know their legs are still sore they're probably still sweating and they're definitely talking about this experience but by the time they get to lunch they've already been tagged in some photos and their friend carl from accounting is saying so what's this november project so it's a really cool experiment of like hype it was social real human contact matters in person stoke the flame with social so that real human conversations happen and it just kept cycling um and then this thing is as instagram's come along it's just kind of continue to help right for sure for sure i mean that's that's when you have nothing to lose you know when when you're only two followers are brogan and boyan for november project you can drop as many f-bombs as you want and then all of a sudden it's like you you

accidentally put yourself in this class of people on social that are actually kind of speaking how they usually speak you know and not cleaning it up and um you know whereas marathon sports or some of the local brands like they kind of have to pay attention to their brand we were just like whatever i mean at that time the the the statement about us from other run clubs in boston was that they are the fight club of run clubs cambridge running that's like the best right totally ever get right totally i mean that's what i mean that was one of my favorite films we we actually used that film in a lot of what we did you know when it came to like talking about november project los angeles for example all of the tribes for the most part early on were

the airport code so it's np lax oh okay or np dca instead of dc and so um because there's that funky scene at the beginning where he wakes up on different runways and it's right right i remember even the pledge process of how you start your own tribe at least for the first number of years but the main difference is with fight club the first two rules he has never talked about fight club is like always talk about november first rule np is talk about np second rule constantly totally so yeah so that that was a really cool time um and it's what i was doing professionally and boyan was you know his degree is in is in media and he was able to um make our blog good and even though his second language is English and I barely speak it, and we had tons of spelling and grammar, it was like the timeliness of your day. And I think anyone that's creating content, whether it's a blog or you're a photographer, it's like turn your stuff around quick and it can be good.

And good becomes great. Great a week late is only okay, in my opinion. And we were seeing that for the first time. Wow, you guys got the blog up already well the blog just like had a bunch of fart jokes and like a bunch of polished photos but like but it was it was content and people were still humming from their experience yeah that's cool and it's you know it's it's interesting to kind of watch these trends in in fitness and to see people kind of burn out on the typical health club gym situation like

right am i really gonna go and get on the stair master again? And then you see the explosion, you know, of CrossFit, right. Because it's participatory and because it's communal and there's accountability and you're going to go there and you're going to know the people and they're going to expect that you're going to show up and all that kind of stuff, right. That gets people excited about it. And there's a lot of that, that, you know that infuses the core of what you guys are doing. For sure. What is the secret sauce of the November project that holds it together and has allowed it to become such a massive thing? I think that any time we talk about it as a movement that's working in Baltimore and Milwaukee and Orlando and Iceland and Hong Kong.

I think you have to look at the regional leaders. We call them co-leaders, the people who created these tribes. They pledged to build something, and they're committed every Wednesday for kind of ever, rain or shine. And it's that kind of personality. How do you become like a leader? Well, you know, I didn't want to bring up Fight Club too many times in this interview, but I did. We have a process where you reach out to the website. We have a page on our website that says how to start a tribe.

Basically, you reach out to us and tell us why you're qualified and how you have these handful of extra hours in your week and how you've led things in the past and why you believe in this community. And then we jump on a Skype and figure out if you're the right kind of person, if we like you and if it's going to be fun. And from there, there's a challenge of eight or more Wednesdays where you rich role, November project, rich role has to build a community without calling it November project. I see.

So it'd be called fit project, role, role project or whatever. And then eight Wednesdays later, it's just you sitting here at your house with your dogs and your headphones. And I would have to email you and be like, rich, it's not going to happen.

Not really working out. Right. So, um, and then the flip side is that then you do build a community and you do source your neighbor and the mailman and the waitress and the trucker and the dude is pumping the gas. And it's like,

you, you're a frantic for eight Wednesdays. You're frantic about building something. And hopefully that sets the tone to figure out that this is a, it's a topic that you're allowed to talk to people about, right? We all, you know, we all gravitate towards cities and towns that we think are beautiful or upbeat, and then we don't speak as much to each other. So these leaders, they build something important.

And then, um, for anyone that hasn't been in a November project workout, I think, um, the human contact piece is important. We've always believed in this concept of hugging instead of shaking hands. And if you were to go to your first this week, you'd be like, wow, everyone here knows each other. But it's just because of the hugging culture of like, it's just, that's what we're doing.

And it was a part of the team that Boyan and I were on, a bunch of dudes who were six foot five, really scary looking guys. But for whatever reason, like we were huggers instead of shakers. And it was just kind of the team that Boyan and I were on a bunch of dudes who were six foot five, really scary looking guys. But for whatever reason, like we were huggers instead of shakers. And it was just kind of always was like, and to, to kind of extend the, the fight club analogy even further. I mean, you know, fight clubs all please, please do. I mean, I could talk about it for hours, but yeah,

it's about stripping away the artifice in your life and, and, you know, and sort of scraping away at, you know, these sort of self imposed prisons that we've created around our lives and trying to tap into something that's, that's authentic, right. That's real. That makes our heart beat and, and, uh, you know, it gets us out of bed in the morning. Right. And that's really what November project taps into because people, it's like a revival in

the morning, right? Like it's insane. The amount of energy. Yeah. Or, yeah. And I mean, that's, that's one thing that in the morning, right? Like it's insane the amount of energy people are. Yeah, and I mean that's one thing that I probably. You can't fake that. Right, and I think that that comes from the workouts being free because when you pay your 35 for spin or you pay your whatever for CrossFiter, when you pay that, then you are being served at the bar, at the fitness bar.

So give me that experience, give me that energy. Well, you get an expectation. Totally. But if you show up to something that's free, that you got yourself there, you're almost like a shareholder in a way that you recognize almost right away. Like, if I hoot and holler, that makes this better. If I race my butt off, that makes this better. If I'm upbeat and positive, that makes...

You know, like, you have more control because you are a part of it. We say November Project Tribes are built every week. It's great that you've been coming for the last couple months, but are you going this Wednesday? And in that way, it's like a never finished, very imperfect, kind of rough around the edges. Like, you know, people say grassroots and people say community and they love to sprinkle community on everything. But like, that's the true definition of what we are. Well, it's interesting because you would think like a it's sort of counterintuitive because you would think, well, if you really want to incentivize people,

they have to shell out a few bucks because then they feel like they're invested. Like they paid for it, so now they have to show up. Right. But you're working in, you know, sort of contradiction to that. Yeah, I mean, the creative drive

and the intensity and the passion that comes from these leaders who I don't like calling them volunteers, but that's what it is, is unmatched. And the vibe that's created by people feeling like they're truly a part of something that's built that morning is really cool.

And I've been through all walks of kind of life and fitness and been on the sidelines for things that I haven't participated in and just seen a lot of the industry um not really intentionally and i don't think i see much like this uh where the energy is super high people really do care that you're there uh they hope you come back it's almost like that midwest vibe of like travel safe hope to see you next time right and um and people are really proud you I mean, people are proud to be a part of something that sure it's a movement that's in Hong Kong and in New York city,

but man, November project Worcester might be the proudest tribe. You know what I mean? Like it's something that, you know, November project Indianapolis is really psyched that they had a tribe before LA and they'll tell you, you know,

and it's like, it's something to be connected to. It's interesting that you guys were able to scale it because both of you have such huge personalities. Like you guys have a lot of charisma. And so, you know, how do you transfer that onto these other cities where you guys aren't showing up all the time

and make sure that it carries that same, you know, trademark energy you're seeing in Boston? You know, i would love to think that i'm like mr finesse and mr management and i can read people really well but like that's that's part of what makes this uh difficult especially early on in the process of like are we gonna let these dudes or gals start their own tribe and it's the x factor right you can say okay so she's a spin instructor or okay. He was in the military. So he knows how to yell at people. Okay. He was a good runner, but like, will all those

things come together as they're become a blogger and a photographer and an inspirational leader and a coach and a friend and a hype man and a rent a clown all in one, you don't really know. And so we try and some size people up early on. And, um, that's why I think some of the Google Hangouts and the Skype dates are really important. If we make a stupid joke and it doesn't land, does that mean we're not funny or they're not on our wavelength? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. But we have to think. We have this leadership summit every year.

Boyan and I speak so often about, will they make it more fun? Or will they make it more weird? Or will they make it more fun or will they make it more weird or will they make it more competitive and so but on some level you also have to let go a little bit totally totally and i think that that's that's a tough one it's a tough one um have you had cities that were just didn't work out we've had cities that haven't worked out we've cratered we've had a couple. Gary, Indiana. We closed up. No, just kidding. No, we have. Yeah, we had.

I think people underestimate how hard we, and not just Boyne and I, but all of the Boston tribe, and not just the Boston tribe, but all the first seven tribes, ten tribes, how insane and rabid we were about recruiting. I spoke to everyone on the street my wife will tell you stories these days about how like borderline insane it was because i you know it's like the phil knight thing if you have a body or an athlete it's like i just remember seeing people and being like wow that fucking guy needs this for fitness he needs this for like you just roll up on people yeah yeah you have like flyers and stuff uh we we made these things out of like cardboard boxes beer boxes back in the day called recruiting papers but it wasn't a leave behind it wasn't like a flyer like here greenpeace on the street it was like if they earned it through the

conversation it was a leave behind but i was you know the easy the layup is like when you see someone running stuff oh wow you like those running shoes i've never seen those before what do you get what are you training for i mean you look fast oh that's awesome okay cool have you heard of november project you know that's the easy one because that person's already moving but getting people to consider trying to show up for the first time as a new athlete or someone who's been a long ways from their last workout those are the uphill battles that when you win them just are the best and and in terms of like winning those battles i mean the stories of people's lives who

have changed you know transformed by this experience is insane like that video that video is really well done what's it called again the the film yeah uh it's called showing up showing up showing up where you basically you track the lives of a variety of people and yeah basically the impact that november project has had on their lives it amazing. Yeah. That project was something that we were extremely, I should say are extremely proud of, and it was probably our biggest moment last year. The two young filmmakers, guys, Dylan Ladds and Ryan Skura of Deuster Film, have been shooting with us nearly since the beginning

when we could only offer them a plane ticket to go somewhere to do some kind of a weird stunt. So they've been sitting on a bunch of content for a long long time um because of our partnership with the north phase we were able to send them on the road and tell these eight stories some of which were super thoughtful and dark and intense and uh but some of them are upbeat and i i think what makes that story that film so killer is that everyone's got a million excuses, right? And everyone has a reason why they can't or that's not their thing. The eight stories that we tell in that film are reasons why people, against all odds, are able to pull themselves out of bed, whether it's in Washington, DC or in Vancouver, anywhere in the world and go be a part of this thing. That's really fun.

Good for your city and good for your body. And, um, man, I'm proud of that film. And there are people that might not have ever found their way to fitness. Right. They're very unlikely athletes.

Right. And then you see the impact of their transformation on the people in their sphere, right? Like the judge and like how he's getting everybody in his courthouse right right do all get fit again and like it's really inspiring right i mean to the underdog story is a great one um you know and the transgender you know iron man athlete right you know it's right it's really um you know you know the the the pieces that i thought were

interesting about that film was the stories that were a little bit downplayed. You know, Sasha in San Francisco, it just barely like skates through the fact that she ran. She ran Division one track at Brown. Like on paper, she does not need this community to get a run in. Right. But so why does she keep going in her connection through her friend Sam and the community of san francisco that was that was around her um in some extreme times you know rich in vancouver he's a two-time olympian swimmer like we kind of skated through that point in order to prove the point that that doesn't necessarily matter because if if an olympian's

in bed and not contributing to his community he doesn doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So, um, that film is one that if you, if anyone has 27 minutes and they want to like laugh and cry and get inspired, it's on YouTube showing up November project. It's in my opinion, it's like,

I don't know the best thing, the best thing in the world. Yeah, it's great. I'll put a link in the, um, in the show notes. Yeah.

So people can check it out. You know, I'm interested in, like, why some movements work and other movements don't. Like, what is it about, you know, November Project that has allowed it to flourish? And I see like a lot of parallels with alcoholics anonymous yeah which was started by two dudes sure who basically were just trying to help hold each other accountable for not drinking right right right and then they create this thing which you don't have to pay any money it's free right and basically you can contribute or whatever but it's free nobody's in charge there's no organizational body right no board of directors right and there's certain elements in the way in the kind of way that

that's structured that i think has allowed it to blossom and grow and i see certain kind of similar aspects in november project i mean keeping it free and like the way that you've allowed it to expand it would be very easy for you two guys to just hold on to it and make it your thing and try to control the whole thing right and turn it into a business where you're franchising it and charge to the workout trying to make it like you know a huge industry like crossfit i mean you must have had did that ever come up as like it comes up we should do that yeah why aren't we you know right right it came up a lot back in the day um it comes up all the time even to this day and i think that um you know we used to not have answers so we would come with this really confident like world take

over we believe in kindness and you know in hard work adult gym class and hugging if you don't understand that get out of our face you know it's like partially because we believe in hugging but if you don't like that fuck you totally get out of here you know but but uh i think any conversations we've had and when i say we i mean any of our leaders with anyone from the outside if they're asking those hard questions about like so when are you gonna how are you gonna charge let's charge like let's make it a you can turn the corner let's make some money here um they don't they don't get it if someone goes to a couple of these workouts they're like okay this is this is the way this is perfectly in that perfectly balanced so and then um the end game people always talk about the end game what's

your end game what is the end game it's become almost a joke it's like well we want to build these communities all over the world so i don't know how many communities are there. You know, like, you know, and the best part about it is like this, this intense way of speaking about like world takeover or like, like the generalities of humans and how all cultures could use a little bit more movement and kindness. We used to get laughed at. Like, really, like, like, you're not going to get more than these 300 people here in Boston. No one would ever be as passionate as you guys outside of here.

This will never work. And I'm not saying we were sitting on the answers like some geniuses. Absolutely not. But as it grew, less people have been laughing and more people say, world takeover. Where are we going next? Because why? Because I think that people, and this is an important thing to connect to what you're saying before about social. People need to connect and it's become especially in the last couple years, a kind of a buzz phrase.

But man, the better we get at pushing the buttons on our new iPhones and waiting for the next one to come out, the worse we get at having conversation with the mailman and talking to that cute looking gal at the end of the bar and welcoming the new neighbors to town and these social skills and i know that i'm sort of almost dating myself sounding like the crotchety old man but like hey man i'm a lot older than you they matter right those skills matter those connections matter and um that high that you get from these workouts if you do it with a group of supportive people is like nothing else you'll experience all day or all week and so um i think that is what's made it work but let's also not forget that because each of these sets of co-leaders are like they don't have a boss it's like this unruly like organization that's woven together by things that we do in practices and kind of ethos but it it keeps it, it keeps the, it keeps,

it's free form. It keeps the cool factor high. It, it maintains it's like punk rock ethos. And, you know, it kind of goes to when you're, when you're talking about, you know,

what's your end game. It reminded me of, you know, the scene in the social network where, where, you know, they're having that conflict over whether they should sell ads on the site and,

and, and just keeping the integrity of what it is. We don't know what it is, but it's cool. And underappreciating the fact that coolness wins every time. And you've got to maintain that. And once you lose that, the game's over. So maintaining that cool factor is the innate value of the whole enterprise. Right.

Yeah. And so as you grow and scale, how do you ensure that that stays intact? You know, it's, um, it's something I think about a lot. It's something I think about a lot. And I think that, um, when it comes to the communication we have with these leaders and where they, the, the venue, what part of town you want to host it, what will you do? What will your PR day look like? How are you going to recruit? Like those conversations are really important. And then in the end, in a coin flip locally, the leaders in their communities know better than I ever will,

you know? And, but it goes back even before that, where it's like, do we have the right people? And is someone perfectly calculated and insane enough to do this? And then beyond that, how do you tell the story, right?

I think storytelling is a huge part of this as well. And you guys have done a great job of knowing how to translate what is actually happening into a story that can connect with people and get them interested in what you're doing. Yeah, and I think that people, when it comes to storytelling, can look in any platform that they like. You can be on Twitter, you can follow the link, you can just follow the 140 characters, you can follow the hashtag, you can watch the whole film, you can read the whole book, you can just go to the workout and not even have a smartphone. Like I think storytelling is

all around us. And a lot of these tribes have looked to their members to tell stories of, you know, similar to the film, who's there? And it's really cool to realize like, oh, I've been working out with these guys and gals for a year. I don't even know what any of them do for a living. But not because we haven't had a really serious bond, because it doesn't matter. And at that hour, it's so hard just to get there. And the workout's so hard on its own that it's the one place in town where it's super social through the roof but it doesn't your business card will never come up and so when these uh when

these characters when these members get an opportunity to tell their story on our blog or through social whatever form of storytelling it's explosive locally and then the ones that we get to share out through the whole movement it's almost like this crazy uh experimental like performance art project that went haywire totally bigger than you ever thought it was it's like a science fair project yeah dad let's build a volcano we have a real volcano yeah i mean it's it's um it is a social experiment and you know one of the tweets that's pinned to the top of our page is, you know, the November Project movement is working. Just as simple as that. And it shows the seven nations flags that have this.

And I think people are still, you know, there's folks still on the edges that are saying it's slowing down. When are you going to? Right. I mean, World Takeover is real. Well, you know, sort of what do you infer from that? Like culturally, like what's going on right now? you know sort of what do you infer from that like culturally like what's going on right now you know not just in america but across the world that makes something like this so attractive i mean we're you know we're living in divided times right now there's a lot of fear and anger and you

know anxiety with people and you know it seems like this is a place it's like a safe haven where totally can express themselves physically and and communally yeah i mean to kind of transcend all of that completely a place of support is huge a place where you know you can go and dial into your own you know telephone booth and do your workout and get out of there you don't have you know it's not you don't have to stick around for coffee or hug a thousand people. You can just take and go. I think that, yeah, I think that people are finding that this is a place that's agenda free. are finding that this is a place that's agenda free. And I kind of pause on that because it's so hard to have conversations these days, especially when you involve Facebook that don't get politically charged. But we found early on, and these were some of the rules that we set

in Boston. And like a lot of things that we built in Boston around November project, we weren't really sure, but it's ended up trickling through. And so every April, there's the Boston Marathon. And in the tribe of 100, two, three, four, 500 people, there's gonna be a number of people that are running for charity. Great, really good. Well, Rich is running for charity

and he wants to make an announcement about his fundraiser that's happening tonight at the bar for leukemia. Good cause, great guy. Okay, runner. Well, Rich, if we let Rich speak, then she's going to want to talk about AIDS and then cancer. And then someone lost their hat at the last workout. And then I forgot where I parked.

So early on, we said, no announcements. Right. It's like in AA, that would be called an outside issue. Totally. Just off the table. An outside issue, even though it's so relevant. And this is such a ripe community to say, hey, guys, we all have a coupon for 10% off across the street at Starbucks. Thanks, Starbucks.

Like, we just weren't playing those games. And so I think people know that you can go there and you can have voted for anyone you wanted. And you can believe in whatever you want. But it's not a place for your agenda. Well, that undermines the inclusivity, right? When you have people from all walks of life and you have the Olympians and the pro athletes and then you have the 350-pound woman who's like showing up for the first workout in decades or whatever. And you got to create a warm environment that allows everybody to feel comfortable with that,

you've got to take that stuff off the table. Absolutely. And it's funny to know backstories, political affiliation, people's certain interests, whether they're leaders or members, and just be like, okay, keep it about the workout.

Keep it about why you started this or why you originally came out to this. And for the most part, I think even during the last few months of kind of awkwardness and kind of odd movement in the political landscape, it's been something that we've been able to stick to our guns on for sure. Yeah, that's great, man. So how long into it before you kind of expanded to your next city? Like what was the next city after Boston? Right. So that's, that to me is one of my favorite stories that doesn't get told enough.

But, um, I have one sibling in my family. He's two years older. Uh, he's like my best friend and sometimes my enemy. He's the man. His name is Dan Graham. And Dan Graham and I have been kind of competitive and friends our whole lives. Um, and he watched what we were doing with November Project and wanted to start one, but wasn't going to let his little brother, you know, kind of have a good idea. So he called Boyan, my co-founder, my buddy from college, and said, don't tell Brogan that I'm calling you.

I want to set this up. And at that time, my brother was still living in our hometown in Madison, Wisconsin. And so he started a tribe there in January 2013. So like it was, I mean, it was just a, they had a great story, starting story where on the top of Bascom Hill in downtown Madison, right there on the University of Wisconsin campus overlooking the lake, it was him and three gals just standing there in the snow and they ran some hills and they went and got coffee. And they did it next week. So, but the first four cities. So, how did you take that news, though, when you found out?

Oh, it was great. It was great. You know, he's a big, loud dude. Charismatic fellow. I just think that there's some intricacies to families where it's like I was very amused. I was really psyched because I couldn't imagine a better leader and I almost knew immediate success would come from it

for the November Project Madison tribe for November Project as now something that lived outside of Boston and I loved having my hometown involved and so that was how that started and plus you know Boyan and I are kind of unlikely friends from Northeastern rowing.

I had some really close friends and Boyan was a good friend, but I, you know, without November project, we wouldn't be this tight. And so the fact that he and my brother were connecting on this and kind of talking behind my back was great. Um, a friend of ours from the track team ended up moving to San Francisco and she wanted to start a tribe out here. And we were like, no, just, you know, that's not – you're not up to it. Like, just do something else.

You're not really upbeat enough. You're kind of cynical, Laura. And eventually she just went ahead and did it. And this was back before the pledging. Yeah, kind of like I'm doing it. And we kind of like kept in contact. And she's a before the pledging. Yeah, kind of like I'm doing it. And we kind of like kept in contact. And she's a powerhouse as well. And the dude from the Bruins, Andrew, when he got switched over to the Edmonton Oilers, his hometown, he brought November Project with.

So the first four cities kind of all have an epic start. But with people that, I mean, you could drop them out of a helicopter into any city in the world and they would start a community. I mean, these are some really tough, fun, funny, weird looking people. And now you have what? Like 30 cities.

Yeah. So we're, so we have 33 different cities. We call them tribes. These are 33 tribes. And, um, yeah,

the breakdown is we have 21 in the States. We have seven in Canada, four in Europe, and we have one in Hong Kong.ong so it's crazy it is it is crazy it's inspiring it's um it's something i'm really proud to be a part of i'm a member of november project san diego but i get to have this really cool backstory of being so you're not you're not even the leader where you live no no i i attend uh-huh there's that one part of fight club where tyler durden just like kind of walks in the back row.

And no one really knows who the hell that guy is. Because it's scaled past his personality. Absolutely. That's the idea. Yeah. And you know, the leader's there. Ashley, she's been there forever. And she knows San Diego, how to do San Diego.

And she's got a different... Her tribe is built around her. So I wouldn't really even be able to lead that tribe. So it's very fun for me on Mondays and Wednesdays to be able to go to the San Diego tribe and just be a member. That's it. Why did you move to San Diego? Why didn't you stay in Boston? So at the end of 2014, when Boyne and I built this partnership with the North face,

uh, for the first time, my wife, Goldie and I were able to kind of just work mobily. She has a sister that lives in North Pacific beach, um, who had just had a kid, a baby.

And, um, we had talked about moving to California on our very first date. And it was kind of like, okay, we did this. We could do this right now. Why not?

Why not? And she had this huge yoga following and NP was like getting really big at the time and we kind of looked at each other and it's a little bit of like let's do it the irony is that she wanted to move way more than i did and i was kind of like oh we could stay in boston and she was so driven and then right when we got to san diego i was psyched and she just kept talking about how much she missed it so two years and a month later two years and three months later we're um we're totally into it we're totally san diegans i've got a giant 10 foot surfboard and i think i'm totally rad totally narbra you

must get a bunch of shit from your friends in boston though well one of our pillars is being weatherproof right so like we built this army all around the world of weatherproof and then i skate off to san diego so uh i'm i'm that guy um but i think it also provides an interesting perspective because folks in the boston tribe i think are very boston centric it is where it started and it's hard to relate to an sf san francisco vibe or what they're doing in Los Angeles or what these temperate climates, Phoenix, uh, new Orleans, like they're, they're no less. Well, yeah. November project was born out of the grit of like getting up on a February when it's just the worst, right. And showing up and then knowing that there's going to be

some epic photos on Facebook of like crazy workout that you did in the snow and the sludge. Yeah. And then someone will always say, you know, what was your favorite workout of all time? And it's like for us, it was like the really epic, like disastrous weather, you know, Hurricane Sandy when we did it in Boston. What kind of workouts are you doing in the middle of a hurricane? You know, I think that was like a Monday or something where we like we all ran to the same. I think we were like near the Northeastern Boathouse, Charles River. And we just did like seven minutes of burpees and then we all ran home in the mud.

And so you're running sideways through these torrential downpour winds and then you meet up with this pack of people. No one even has lights on. Everyone just looks like they just stepped out of the pool or the river right there. I mean, you talk about a really creepy moment of like, are you guys ready? Everyone looks at their watches. Seven minutes of bur pool or the river right there. And I mean, you talk about like a really creepy moment of like, you guys ready? Everyone looks at their watches, seven minutes of burpees in the mud. And then you all laugh and run away.

I mean, epic times. Yeah. Like if it's a flash mob, right? Flash mob for sure. I think, I think we said that a lot more back in the day,

flash mob. Cause the Mondays really are the Mondays in Boston really are. We call them a destination deck where you go somewhere and then you do like it's not a full 40 minute workout it's like some core or some you know something funky for 15 minutes and then you run home um so sometimes when we have like sound complaint noise complaints whatever you know security guard will come by or a cranky neighbor will just say like look we're never coming back here again we're really sorry and we never repeat locations. Yeah, that's got to become a thing when you start getting 500,000, 600,000 people showing up.

You can't just descend on some area. It's got to cause problems for you, right? And that goes back to the leaders. Their creativity of being like, okay, this venue is dope, but it'll only be really good for 80 or 100. So let's save that for a downpour rain day or like a below zero morning or something. But just continue with the Boston example. DC is the same way. Edmonton is the same way where Wednesdays are the biggest.

No one's left town yet for the wedding. No one's complications with their flight and they're not back yet Monday. Wednesday is the anchor. You live in your city on a Wednesday morning. They're not hungover. Right. And so our Wednesday in almost every single city is the biggest turnout. And then from there, our leaders get to kind of decide eventually when they add a Friday or a Monday. San Diego's Monday, Wednesday.

Milwaukee's Wednesday, Friday. So all of us share a sunrise around the world in these 33 cities on Wednesdays. And it's cool like if you're traveling and there's a november project wherever you're going you can always like tap into that community right right i mean that to me that's the coolest to walk up to a pack of people that you've never seen before in a city that you do not know but because you're wearing the spray paint you know it's almost like explain the spray paint all right so we call it grassroots gear so if you search hashtag grassroots gear um i've been spray painting shirts and painting shirts for like my whole life and so this was just another thing that when boy and i were doing

the stadium i showed up with some shirts and i was like made these uh they're made out of children's letters from like the like the school supplies aisle at cvs um and you know the big push in boston back in the first summer that we had we we had a day that we were going to paint shirts and then we're going to ruin the stencils and never do it again it's gonna be so like core and um we ended up seeing people in the six and a half other days of the week kind of running around the river and wearing and it became this kind of like oh i know that. Or even if you don't know him, it's like, oh, they're part of the family. It's another little fight club. Oh, totally.

And so it becomes this thing where you can't, like the whole idea of like, oh, yeah, I've been going to November Project forever. Do you mind if we paint one of these shirts for my mom? She lives in Arkansas. Well, unfortunately, your mom's going to have to earn her paint at a workout at some point when she's visiting. Some of the bigger tribes, they'll do it once a month. They paint. Some of the smaller tribes will do it every

workout. But it's definitely one of the first stages of rites of passage. It's like getting branded. Jumped in. You're getting jumped in. And then, my favorite stories are someone from the Phoenix tribe and someone from the New York tribe. They literally pass each other in the Grand Canyon

and the floor of the Grand Canyon going opposite directions, both wearing November Project grassroots gear. And they stop and take a photo. Or we keep it always black across the chest, never sideways, never like a small stencil for someone who's littler. It's just the same always.

The stencil's always the same. So where do you get the stencil so that you know you're getting the official one? Rich love i would love to is this like a secret i would love to tell you but i would i mean this is where i'd have to kill you i gotta cut you out at some point i can't tell you everything well this is all playing into this uh idea that this this thing is just one big crazy cult so how do you respond to like the cult allegation like no i'd like to go like no comment uh you know i think that i think that people kind of like to write it off as that because like our our members

are a little too upbeat like they are a little bit too talkative about it and they are going to recruit you until you go um it's it's just gonna make people's lives better rather than like an actual cult that kind of drains you and disconnects you but every cult tells you it's gonna make your life better well have you been to a workout yet i haven't so i can't i can't believe i'm having this conversation with you when i haven't done it i feel bad like i know but you did your homework i'm gonna have to do it you did your homework but it's you know it's funny with me because you know i travel a lot and people will tweet me and say oh you gotta you should come and do the november probably you know like i've gotten invited several times to show up and for whatever reason like i haven't gone and it's you know it's like i have my own training program oh that doesn't like really work with what i'm doing i follow your

instagram stories yeah i got and i'm kind of a lone wolf with my training but like i'm trying to change that because i want to do it for the joy right and that's about community right and so i'm i'm more open to doing this kind of stuff now than i have been in the past so i definitely want to check it out from from what i know and this is now i'm going to diagnose this problem i gotta get a t-shirt i need some i know i'd love to give you i'd love to leave this one but i can't uh you haven't earned it yet uh so i would say you as an athlete from what i know would love november project for the connection and to remind yourself to play, to remind yourself to have fun.

You're not a guy who needs help with your workouts. No, I don't need that. You don't need to lose weight. I need to take it less seriously. That's what I'm saying. And so one of my favorite dudes who's joined this movement is a 225 marathon guy. And his name is Ian Nurse. And he's super serious about running and uh he's

like finished 70th in the boss marathon he's just he's a stud and um he goes to np as a place to connect and as a place to kind of like just have a fun run and still get some hills in so it's not a total wash you know but you know like sasha and san francisco he doesn't need november project but i think he needs to kind of of lighten up a little bit here. Because running, I think at its core, at least it should be fun. So he's a cutthroat elite. I mean, he's a true elite. And yeah, he's a great example.

He's for sure. He's one of my favorite dudes in that tribe. In the years of doing this and all the people that you've seen kind of come into November project and seeing, you know, lives transformed, like what have you learned about human behavior or, you know, what's required for somebody to actually change their, um, their habits, right? Because we see it all the time. Like, Oh, you joined the gym or you go on a diet and these things just don't last. They don't stick with people. Right. So how do you get people to actually, you know, create a lasting or permanent shift in how they live their lives? the tribe itself is to credit. I'm not asking you to take credit for it.

I'm more saying like, what's your observation? Because you've seen thousands of people and you're traveling to all the tribes and you have your own tribe. Like what have you taken note of that maybe is not necessarily just obvious? Yeah, I think that a few really positive supportive words go a long way. And I think when it comes to recruiting someone saying the right kind of string of words to get them to show up and try.

But then once they're there, that's an important moment. Whether it comes to the leader or someone else remembering their name. It always blows my mind that like encouraging someone to finish their workout strong or, or to turn to somebody and give them, give a stranger a hug. Like those moments of like just a couple little things that are said or that are done can change someone's outlook. And you never know what kind of day people are having, you know,

what kind of situation they're leaving at home or what's kind of situation they're going to at work if they have a job or what they do, where they went to school, none of that matters. So I'm always inspired to see how people in a lot of cases can barely get there. But then a couple key moments will hook them. You know, our mutual homeboy, you know, Caleb is a great example. Like he set out and I don't care how this sounds, but he set out for a job.

He came to November Project to write an article for a job he came to november project to write an article for a running magazine done right he's ready to peace out before he even got there and because of his identity as a runner because of how he likes to train and didn't even know kind of the environment that he might gravitate towards plus some of the things that were going on in his life like it was the perfect storm where a couple key things were said by a couple key people, and he was hooked. Caleb's one of the most regular dudes there. Obviously he helped build the November Project book,

but he might be as core member as anybody. Those really small moments, I think, are huge. I think that plays outside of NP too. Well, it drills down to connection. Connection, community, accountability, the creativity and fun that comes with it. And on the accountability piece, that really works both ways.

It's like you have the welcome mat, everybody feels awesome, everybody's cheering and hugging and all that kind of stuff. But you also have that thing, like if people say they're going to show up and they don't show up like you sort of lambast them publicly the we missed you the we missed you know the the negative side of accountability which is very effective right and it's like you're doing it in fun obviously but like no one wants to be on that board right so so i gotta i had this conversation earlier today this piece

and i need all the listeners to understand that the we missed you page is not used on new people so if you're thinking about coming and then you don't come like we're not shaming people back to their beds it's basically for people that have become a part of the community at a certain point. And they promise their friend or they promise their leader or they promise somebody that they'll be there up and down swore you up and down. I mean these generations that are alive on this planet right now pretty much invented how to be flaky. Like that's

our thing. We made that. Congrats. You know so to fight back against that the we missed you page is if someone tells you in text or word of mouth i'll be there and they say that's a verbal it's a verbal commitment uh and then they break that whoever they broke the verbal to usually brings that information to one of the leaders and they write a we missed you page it's essentially a wall of shame and we usually

harvest photos uh off of their Facebook and then basically talk about how they were for sure coming, but then they were at a work thing and then like the beers were free. So they stayed for one more and then like, Oh, my alarm didn't go off. Make it all up. Or is that the excuse that they get?

No, no, no. So we usually use the person who reported it. So the person who they blew off, their friend will bring us the information. So like the, we missed you.

It's really common to see like a screen capture of very like all the stop oh right of all of the um back and forth texts of like yeah i'll be there yeah okay cool is that a verbal yeah cool oh i slept in oh my alarm right and so then i think a common thread through almost all the we miss you post is at the end it's some sort of rounded off corner of here's the deal. We just, we were sad that you broke our heart. Our workouts are better when you're there, Steve,

we miss you. Right. And so it's always some kind of like a little bit of a nicer ending. So how do you. So, so, so we feel like, so,

so, so what, why do we do that? So then we think that next time Steve is saying he's going to go to a workout, that might be the very last thing that he considers when he goes to bed. Oh, I don't want to be on that. We missed you.

Yeah, of course. That's what I'm saying about the negative side of accountability. It's like, yeah, you don't want to. I'm not going to let that happen to me. Right. You know, I'm going to show up no matter what. But no fear. If you're new out there, no fear.

Right. Right. so dude how do you like if this whole thing is free like how do you make a living like how does this work like is that how where north face comes in or yeah so uh my co-founder and i had the opportunity to talk to a couple key brands at the end of 2014 about partnering for a number of really important reasons uh one we felt like we were managing a movement of 16 17 cities and we wanted to focus on it we thought that this could be our job something that we should be focusing all of our energy on um and we also had this idea that once a year we would bring everyone together all of the leaders we called the summit it would almost have like a grateful dead vibe of like i'm not a leader but i gotta go it's like

almost your pilgrimage each year you know um we thought it would be pretty cool to outfit all of our leaders with gear as a as a like as a thank you of some sort and um and then the last piece was that this dream that boy and i had of being able to jump on planes and go see this and work with leaders and talk about leadership and not that we have all the answers but what worked in boston how they're doing it in seattle you know like what makes sense up there in winnipeg and and be able to you know kind of travel with these stories and and um and make tribes even better um so at the end of 2014 uh both he and I left our jobs and we formed a partner. What were you doing before that? Uh, I was working on the marketing team at New Balance and, um, that was an awesome job.

Great group of people. And, um, Boyan was, I think he was freelancing at that point and, um, walking his dog a lot. And, uh, he was being a good husband. I mean, for sure. Yeah. And he was being a good husband, for sure. Yeah. He has a daughter, too, right? And grooming his beard. He didn't have a daughter at that point, so he just focused on his beard, dog, wife,

I think in that order. Or wife. Anyway. Some kind of order. It remains unsure. So January 1st, 2015 is when it kicked off. And, you know, it's funny being from Wisconsin, growing up in snow sports, like I always had a dream of like having like North Face jackets. I thought it was so cool, you know, and high end and like kind of on top of Everest, kind of, you know, watching, you know, some of these pro skiers jump off of cliffs and being aware of North Face.

So I think that November Project depends on kind of what lens you want to look at it. Is this a running story? Is this a training story? Is this a weight loss story? Is this a community story? Well, we didn't really have to stretch very far with our friends at the North Face. Never stop exploring. We're going to be outside playing Rain or Shine.

I mean, that's what they do best. And so that partnership was so simple. It formed around their training platform called Mountain Athletics, which was kicking off PM workouts into certain cities around the world. But maybe more importantly, their series of trail racing events that happen all around North America, which we were actually using at the time as rally points for some of our tribes. So if there's one just outside of Madison, the tribes from Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis, and Chicago would all go there and kind of have like a miniature...

And not everyone's running in ultra, right? You're doing relays and like 5Ks and stuff like that. And even before November Project started, I was a fan of these races because there's a marathon relay on Saturday. There's also a 50K and a 50 miler. The next day is a half marathon,

five K, 10 K. So it's like, and they're always within certain proximity of cities. So it's like trail for city folk that want to try trail, but it's not soft, you know, 50 miles legit. Um,

and so you've seen a lot of our community start with the marathon relay on a team of four and then sign up for the next one team of two sign up for their first ultra you know like it's been cool to see it happen it happened to the best of us right either they clock out and they're done right this is done all in right right right well that's cool i mean it's a perfect you know it's obviously the perfect company for your message and what you guys are doing absolutely and they're i mean they've done a really amazing job of casting a wide net and working with really interesting athletes and yeah you know we were talking before the podcast i mean i've had the opportunity to talk to a bunch

of people that are on that team yeah we've got conrad anchor dean carnazes timothy olsen yeah and then you did didn't they have like a summit for their own athletes right at the time wim hoff was there right i saw a picture of you. I think it was you and Wim in the ice bath or something like that. So Wim was kind of like doing like some breathing, like karate chops over our heads. But I was in the ice bath with Timmy Olsen. And all of the athletes were either preparing to like strip down to jump in

or they were doing the Wim Hof kind of like, uh, shake it out, breathing kind of focused thing. Wim Hof. I mean, Wim Hof is awesome. I, you know,

partly insane and mostly genius. I think he's, I think he's the man. He's like, I mean, talk about a guy who's done a great job of telling his story. Like that guy's blown up. Totally.

Nobody heard of that guy like a year and a half ago. Totally. Now he's everywhere. No, it's funny. I got back from the summit and I was like i was trying to tell goldie i was like you know this wim hof guy we did this like ice bath thing everyone jumped in except boyan but you know she's kind of like you know i don't really know i heard of him whatever i think she started following on instagram and then like two months later very recently she was doing the

wim hof like ice shower challenge which is like you start for the first week with like 10 seconds or 15 seconds of like the end of your shower you just flip it to cold right and just like take it to the face or chest or something he's changed a lot of lives i've just got an email from a buddy of mine reese who lives in san diego actually no way so impacted by whim he went on his retreat in poland and like climbed some mountain in his shorts and did the whole thing. And he's like, you know, basically changed his life. You know,

it's amazing. I'm a, I'm a whim, whim supporter. And this homie of yours in San Diego can fall into a community if he ever wants to in Balboa park. I heard there's something going on down there. Special shout out.

It's 29 AM. Uh, yeah. So tell me, talk me through the typical November project workout. Or is it just different every day and it just morphs with whatever the weather is and the location? The latter, for sure. Typical, I think you can plan on what starts with the group kind of surrounding their leader.

Their leader is usually waiting for everyone's attention. There's a few announcements or none. their leader. Their leader is usually waiting for everyone's attention. There's a few announcements or none. There's usually what we call a bounce where everyone very tight in a pack starts popping around like popcorn. No form, no real point except just get the vibes moving and get your bodies moving. Usually then the leader will shut it down and say, good morning. And everyone stops moving. And similar to some sort of creepy fitness call, yells back good morning and then they say y'all good or are you good and the proper response even if you're tired or you just got laid off or you slept on the couch or you're you have the flu the proper response is f yeah can we curse on you you can say whatever you want so the proper response is

fuck yeah now when that spread to wisconsin they don't, they're not, that's a little crass, that language. So in Milwaukee, good morning, good morning, y'all good? Oh, yeah. There's some kind of a warm-up or you turn to somebody you don't know and give them a big bear hug or both. And then the workout is said to be between 20 and 40 minutes long of a circuit that usually involves running or could be running heavy. We just like to kind of disguise it. There's bodyweight exercises, burpees, whatever. Some leaders will use benches and stairs and get you jumping and get you moving and climbing.

Others will be more focused on the ground or just focus on running depends on the background of the leaders the two guys that created the tribe in New York City are pure running Paul and John where do they do it in New York City so they do in the Upper East Side which is near right outside of Gracie Mansion and it's kind of an unheard of location people always kind of like why there and that's another good example of like who who are buoyant and I to step in and be like, you need to move the location. It's working. So anyone that kind of says it should be here or there, it's like, no, no, we're doing it. And there's actually a tribe right now pledging in Brooklyn. So it's the first city to have two in the same city.

And they're at Fort Green Park or something. They're still pledging, so we're not really sure they're up to this. Pledging. Pledging, little pledges. So it's got like a fraternity overtone. I don't like that, and I actually used to make fun of frats in college. We all did, but then I was part of the rowing team. But yeah, you're a rower.

That's worse. You're a jock, dude. It's way worse. You look like you were in a frat. Okay, okay. I'll take that as a weird. Well, no, like maybe a little too many tattoos for a typical frat guy. But you were like a drama major, right?

How do you know that? Oh, you read the book. And I talked to Caleb. Oh, yeah, yeah. I try and hide that. I was a business major. Oh, you were? I was a branding major.

But you did drama? No, I was actually a theater major. You were theater, right? So that's interesting. That is interesting. Theater and jock. Theater and jock. Usually don't go together.

I started rowing and I started theater at the same time in my life, which was my senior year in high school. And acting was super fun and easy. How am I going to be speaking in front of people? Well, for me, I came from a house full of storytellers and loud people. And people that just naturally have like some timing and some nonsense rattling around in their brain so the presentational piece was easy for acting um and rowing was something i just wanted to check off to make sure i didn't like so that i wouldn't regret it and both of them at the same time kind

of started this really like interesting race to the end of my senior year where i was in plays and i was in things and I was in things and I was in design classes, but I was also a part of this really, really weird other cult. I mean, theater is a total cult rowing, which is like some of these really dorky kids that figured out how to move boats and all became 18 and grew shoulders. And like they're, they're, they're flying out there on Lake Mendota, but it also came with opportunity. So like for the first time, I was really jazzed about school because it had some entertainment value and it had something i was really good at really bad

student in high school not because i didn't really apply myself because i was looking at troublemaking and stuff like that so here i am as a senior trying to figure out what i'm doing for college in a really like a big college town where everyone's either going to wisconsin or better and um i pulled a couple good rowing scores And I was able to go to some schools because of athletics. So rowing opened the door. So rowing opened the door. And then when you get there, it's one of these life questions of like, where are you going to college? And then right when you get there, they're like, what's your major?

And then right when you major, it's like, when do you graduate? So what's your major? I was like, I'm barely here. I had no leg to stand on as a student. And I was only rowing for a few months. So I was kind of a faker in both regards. And so I remember saying. In your mind.

I mean, you got in. You weren't. I was doing a lot of straight facing. I was doing a lot of straight. So when it came time to study something, I said, you know, if I do something that bores me or is agonizing or is even unfun, I'm not going to make it. You got to move your body.

I got to move. You're like an ADD, ADHD. Totally. Totally. Getting in trouble because you can't sit still, right? Totally. Totally. I mean, November Project is like a manifestation of your inability to sit in a chair.

It's the best. You've been sitting in this chair for a while now. It sucks. Are you all right? Is this over yet? Yeah. So to me, to make that decision, I think a lot of people at a school like Northeastern where you're supposed to study business or engineering or nursing or PT, I was like theater guy. Well, in a lot of ways, it actually makes sense because I hopped from one weird group of outcasts to another.

Rowan could be elite or they're just the biggest dorks. And theater kids are either total artists and ahead of their time or they're the biggest dorks. And theater kids are either total artists and ahead of their time or they're the biggest dorks. And so it was a really interesting trip through downtown Boston college years of like these two worlds that never met that were really odd for me. I was still a ball player

that was kind of looking for the parking lot fight after the race, but it just wasn't part of the culture. I was like happy Gilmore. And theater ended up being a really interesting place. And in such a small program, there were times where I was able, happy Gilmore. And, um, and theater ended up being a really interesting place. And in such a small program, there were times where I was able to like write scripts and direct that thing or hang the lights and design a stage for something that I was acting in. And, um, I, at the time was like, what am I doing? But I am really proud of it. And, but it is,

it is one of those fun facts where I definitely don't lead with that. It's cool. I think, because I don't know about you, but I grew up thinking, well, you're an, you're either an athlete or you're like kind of an artist type, but like, you're not both. Certainly nobody's both. Like you kind of got to pick. And I'm, I was somebody who always, like, I love, you know, I love swimming and triathlon and running all that kind of stuff. But I also have like an artistic side, but I, at moment i'm like repressing one of one one of those sides i never really believed that like both of those ideas could inhabit the same human being right and of course they can right um but i didn't realize that until later in life but for you to be in college and kind of be pursuing both

of those at the same time i think it served you well in what you do because like what i said before i think is true, which is that November Project really is a crazy performance art experiment. It is. You know what I mean? So on some level, there are a lot. It's theater. Totally.

You have created this theater piece. Totally. That has gone. It's like having a long run on Broadway, man. Right. It keeps expanding to other cities. And you see these performances. You see these leaders who come alive they're just or more just as or more tired than the people in the

tribe but they put on this character and for some it's very natural like my brother or myself or laura whatever but for some it's a true character um some of my favorite like nick rod in baltimore he's a freedom fighter for the city of baltimore but when the bounce is about to start he gets like a different growl in his voice and he becomes a different creature and it's awesome to watch and uh people are entertained it's true entertainment and even in some of the groups that swell to the five six seven hundred people in dc boston edmonton when the leaders want the attention of the mob, you can hear a pin drop and there's something really special, creepy, explosive about that. And yeah, I mean, you know,

I remember being at Northeastern and being like, okay, I'm going to actually, boy, I don't remember this. I was in a Shakespeare production of, as you like it, as you like it is the famous piece that the world is simply staged. That's that quote. But I had these parts that were so tiny. I was like Charles the Wrestler and I was another guy that just held balloons and I was

barely in it. But I remember those times of total fearlessness in a boat or total fearlessness socially or total fearlessness and being freaked out total fearlessness socially or totally total fearlessness and being like freaked out about like screwing up my lines and stuff like that and um my brother said to me recently just a month ago a few weeks ago really um it's really important to keep yourself in a mode of being a little bit terrified because if not then you're not growing and i know

it's borderline cliche but um i had an opportunity to speak in san Francisco a few weeks ago in front of 4,000 people. I saw the photo. And I was freaked. Was that Facebook or what? Yeah. That was the Facebook Global Summit. Total brag. Not a subtle brag.

It was full brag. And the woman who was organizing the event for the talent, the few speakers, was a woman I had worked with years before at wanderlust a yoga event right um and she thought it'd be good kind of content and get people moving and it was so much fun but to go back to that point of like presentation in theater was like the moments before you step on stage with your little ted talk mic in front of 4 000 people trying to pull a stunt to get them out of their chairs you're gonna take your phone out and you're gonna give it to someone and they're gonna babysit it for the next five minutes and you when going to take your phone out and you're going to give it to someone and they're going to babysit it for the next five minutes.

And when you give them your phone, you're going to say, I trust you. Like these weird things. And could you do it in front of, I was freaked out. But I think I tapped back into some of those things from theater and some of those moments

of like stage presence and confidence. Yeah. I want to get back to the 4,000 people speech. We can get done with that. No, no, no. I have some questions about that. I want to get back to the 4,000 people speech in a second but I want to no no no I have some questions about that but first of all I want to know you know like you like how do you

think about where you're at right now like going from being a guy who was like basically coaching crew like is this what you thought you would be doing? I can't imagine it is, right? Like how could you possibly imagine this? But like what was the plan and like how did this –

like do you go, whoa, I can't believe this is happening. Almost every day. What happened to my life? Almost every day. Almost every day. I think that Boyan and I were and still are extremely passionate about this movement. But we also, there were some timing things. And there was the right people in the right places.

And the right, you know, at the very beginning of this conversation, talking about the timing around social. And like a lot of things just lined up for us. It helped that we had a bunch of really creative, really great athletes that were a part of the Boston tribe. Or they splintered off. Or they saw what we were doing through social. And, um, you know, I, I wish I knew in my early twenties, definitely back in the days of like figuring out your resume or your, um, your major and then what your resume would look like. I wish I knew to be less stressed because the lesson that I'm learning these days as a dude in his thirties is like

those jobs you had and those things that you did, even though you weren't sure how they'd look on a resume or if they'd even make your resume or where you were going, they all add into who you become. And I know that's so like, um, I don't know, it's a big, it's a big picture thing to say, but you know, I was a pedicab driver boston as a rowing coach i i had a a website uh weekly man on the street gig where i was bothering bostonians around town to answer the question of the week do you have a minute you're an interesting looking guy and like you're perfect for that but i didn't know at the time that like you could you could still you could go back to that i'm dying to boldfacers i was, I didn't know that at the time I was in, for what we were going to end up building in Boston, kind of just sharpening my teeth.

And I will never take credit for building the Boston tribe completely. Of course not. And the movement is built on the backs of many leaders but um when it comes to public speaking confidence when it comes to the ability to speak to strangers uh to host a workout to hold a moment uh and some of the timing things about presenting and you know from theater to tricycles to man on the street to coaching elite rower dudes on the charles river it's all kind of that's who i am what do you what do you if you had to articulate if you had to say what your gift is, like what is your, your strength or your gift?

I think my gift is, I think my gift is bringing people together. And I think that that could mean six people in a booth at a bar and none of them know each other except me. I think I can make that pretty fun pretty quick. That could mean six people in a booth at a bar and none of them know each other except me. I think I can make that pretty fun pretty quick. Well, that gift dovetails pretty nicely into November Project. Sure. It's one of those things where when you look in the rearview mirror, everything lines up perfectly.

And you're like, oh, of course this is happening. It's all perfect, right? Right, right, right. And that's like I look back at my life and it looks that way as well. But I know when you're in the midst of it, it's chaos and confusion. Totally. You would never think that it would amount to what it becomes, right? I mean, you know, I have a cousin who's in his 20s right now and he's dealing with like a job he hates and kind of like not sure if he's using his degree as an architect the right way.

And he's stressed. You know, hey, Kev, it's your cousin cousin bg how long have you had this job your dad told me you're kind of in a tough spot he's been there for two months you know and i think we forget sometimes you just gotta trudge sometimes you trudge and that stuff though those miles are not discarded they're not junk miles i do not believe in junk miles and in life right i mean it all goes into it my worst my worst job I ever had was in South Florida. I moved from Boston for one year to manage a pedicab company.

My buddy, who technically at that time became my boss, was thinking about buying a pre-existing company that had like four locations, trucks and trailers, 200 dudes. It was like the Wild West down there. And my job was to go down, assess culture, tighten the screws, make a little more money, and then maybe a a year later my buddy would buy the company i had free housing i also had to manage a bunk house for dudes from new york that came down it was like every different

kind of shady and uh i hated most days and how do you finesse and manage people that are uh you know independent contractors they rent the bike from me. That's pretty much where it ends. How do you position yourself? How do you manage? How do you ask people for things that don't, there's no real working relationship back and forth. How do you guide culture?

How do you decide what's important and let go of all else? And how do you get rid of people that aren't doing it right? And some of those things that I pulled from that time, which was like a total headache, are some important lessons that I still use when it comes to. Yeah. I think that's beautifully put and super relevant in a culture in which, you know, especially on the Internet, like people will just tell you follow your passion and, you know, all this sort of thing. And it's like it's very flip flip. You know what I mean?

And there is value in the trudge and that job that you're stuck in that you hate you don't you don't have the uh you know global view or objectivity when you're in it to understand how that's gonna fit contextually into what you ultimately end up doing later and you really you only realize in retrospect like oh wow what i learned you know the pedicab thing actually was crucial. Right. Totally. Yeah. I mean, like I told my cousin, it was like, but you don't have to have that job forever.

I don't have to live in southern Florida to like. Right. But you do have to. When is the learning curve like. And when is the experience could have a bookend? When could it be complete? And I think for him, the trudging lesson is important. could it be complete and i think for him the trudging lesson is important you don't get to be in a job in your 20s that you don't like for two months and then move on and have it not make

your resume and have no trudging miles like i don't think i think you got to be there for your six or one year so you can put it somewhere on resume at least for now but also having enough of a relationship with yourself to understand what it is that gets you excited and having the you know the courage to continue to pursue that. For sure. Maybe not in a linear way, but to always have that as like your propulsion. For sure.

I mean, his whole thing was like no one was, he'd walk into the office and he was in charge of a bunch of dudes that like wouldn't even say hello to him. And I was like, buy him donuts, make it a game, make it a contest. It's an opportunity to learn management skills and people skills.

Totally. And just figure it out. How can you win that over? Because it's not going to get worse skills and people skills totally and just figure it out win that over because it's not gonna get worse i mean that's they're probably not they're not gonna say how like they're not gonna acknowledge you less right so anyway i just i i um i think some of those things are really important to like kind of where what forms us you know all right so when you get up in front of 4 000 people or when you get up in front of any group of people like what do you talk about? What is your presentation all about?

Right. Well, luckily, over the years, I've been side by side with Boyan. I saw the TED Talk. TED-X. The TED-X. Well, I mean, you can still say it's a TED Talk, can't you? No, because TED-X means that you're kind of JV. That was almost like a TED talk. No, you're not allowed to. No, because TEDx means that like, you, you know, you're like, you're kind of JV.

You guys, it was, that was almost like a musical performance. It started with body surfing. Yeah. Right. So TEDx, so,

but I've been lucky to have him by my side. So he's a real organizational, like, like a rational thinker. And I'm an ideas guy. And I'm like, let's do, you know,

whatever. So we've fallen into a lot of like how much of the history, a lot of what we talked about in this conversation today, how much of the history is relevant? How much do people need to hear about it? And I think we've, we've had some okay presentations. He and I,

where we probably spent too much time talking about like, and then we were in nine cities and then 10. Like, so I think that these days I give more of a gist of what NP is, November Project. And then I try and find a way to get people as well-rounded of an education as they can and then get them to move. And so the big challenge with going up to San Francisco to speak at Facebook was the woman who had brought November Project brought me there was basically saying, you know, I've seen what you've done where you get people out of there. It's just not going to go completely perfectly. Why?

Because you got a bunch of code jockeys? A little bit of that. It's a digital company. People are on their phones. But as we got closer and closer to the event i recognized like there's not a lot of like these kind of headline speakers it was like two before me and then i got off the stage and zuckerberg got on i mean it was kind of like he was there yeah oh wow so it was like you know this as this thing's really developed it wasn't like breakout rooms it was 4 000 humans with their

lanyards on ready to listen and so i mean just giant screens and kind of like the, you know, the whole, the whole rigmarole. And for me, it was, they played a short video for two minutes. It was 12 minutes total, two minutes video. I step on, people clap. They're not sure why. I tell them five minutes of kind of why this matters. The theme there was a real human connection and why it will always matter. And so in front of a bunch of folks that are really digitally savvy to talk about how, you know, your phone skills are not real skills, but let's talk about acknowledging one another. Five minutes flies by. And then the back five minutes were getting people out of their chairs.

And that was where my challenge was to prove the organizer wrong. She's like, you know, 60% success rate, they'll stand up. And I didn't even tell her I was going to have people take out their phones and pass them around the room. Like there were just parts of it where I was kind of just going to stick my neck out there and just kind of hope for it. So on social media, there's this selfie photo that we took at the end of the presentation where all 4,000 people are on their feet.

And it was a very nice crowning moment for me and for November Project and for this theme of this talk. Real human connection and why it will always matter. They were having fun. People's giant smiles on their faces. And every single person is without their phone because it's two feet away in someone else's pocket. And they're screaming and they're smiling and they're doing something together. even though it was the photos and snap of them all yeah it's crazy

it was a quick moment but it was super fun and they sat back down and they gave their phones back and it was really really upbeat and i think i just kind of shined the mirror on them at that point of like we do this a lot We do it in a lot of cities. Come join us or not. Just point these smiles outward, you know. Human connection. Why it'll always matter. Yeah.

And that's really what it's all about. That's what November Project is all about. And it is very interesting the times that we're living through right now because we feel like we're more connected than ever and yet we're more disconnected and it's pithy to say that because a lot of people say that but it really is true you know i live my life on social media like you're you've built november project on the shoulders of social media

these are tools that are important that we both utilize and you know i have at times an unhealthy relationship totally with it you know what i mean and i need to be shaken up and totally out of that um well let me ask you i mean i know you're in charge of asking the questions but let me ask you no go as a as a digitally savvy fellow um what are like because you know you have wife and kids like are are there moments in your day-to-day week-to-week where like work ends and you really do put your phone down or do you have trouble with that? Or like, I have trouble with it. I have trouble with it because, you know, work, where does work end? And, you know, the rest of my life begin, it's all one thing, you know, and that's, that's by design. That's the life that I wanted to create for myself. And there's a lot of beauty in that. And I'm super happy doing what I'm doing because there really is no demarcation line

between what I'm doing professionally and what I would do otherwise. But at the same time, that requires a lot more consciousness around boundaries. So I do have to take a little bit more of a concerted effort to say, okay, I'm putting this aside for now. I mean, with the kids, it's like, okay, when I'm with the kids, I'm with the kids. And meals and all that kind of stuff. But it tends to bleed in right so i i find myself in that battle so i have to make rules around it like i have a morning routine i don't check the stuff in the you know all that kind of stuff and then i break those rules and whatever

it's like an ongoing right i certainly haven't mastered it yeah i mean this this morning was the first morning since uh the uh early 2000s that I woke up without a phone alarm. Coming off this digital detox, my wife and I went out yesterday and bought alarm clocks. I read like some, in getting ready for this, I read some article. It was on some blog. I don't know where it was, but it was like your morning routine. It was like, get up, drink coffee, immediately go online, check social media. What are people saying about November Project?

Go to Twitter. What's going on on Facebook? And then go work out. So I would say that in my household, it's not exactly a problem. But we're just below that line of like, you know, Goldie's brand is yoga. And it lives heavy on social and all that she promotes. And obviously, you know, there's a lot for us to be touching our phones. And you can make that argument to yourself like, well, I need to do this.

This is what we're doing. This is my career. Don't tell me to get off my phone. Completely. You know what I mean? But then that takes you down a dark alley. I mean, you know, we, you know, I'm not lying. I mean, we slept differently last night without those phones.

I mean, they're in the kitchen now. And so like just little things like. Are you going to be able to maintain that? I think so. That's great. We'll talk in a week or so. Right. You know, I think some of the things that we were doing last week with this digital

detox of like writing long, you know, long letters, handwritten letters. Well, like I was kind of doing that anyway. And my folks taught me about that. And like, you know, some of these exercises, you know, it was not all for necessary, but we're outside of cell range and we didn't have anything. It was great. So did you have like a day of like jittery panic? But we're outside our cell range and we didn't have any tech. It was great. Did you have like a day of like jittery panic?

Like as you were like sort of separation anxiety? I will say the funniest thing was like the insane amount of Instagrammable moments that like you just had to just keep looking at. Just keep looking at them. Right? So there's like, you know, an amazing bison head on the wall did you have a can't or like allowed to take pictures with the camera or so i had my gopro but it beeped a lot and like i every time it would beep like almost like like you know drug fiends everyone would like look over and be like well what is that you know so you can turn that beep off you know but i kind of like it because it feels like i'm really doing something important um so then um but, like we're carving blocks out on this giant lake to make the walls of an igloo.

And like everyone's got these saws and we're like carving blocks. It's just like the most epic like Instagrammable moment. And there we are like going back to like turn that part of your brain off. Just keep making the igloo, right? Be present. Yeah. So anyway, but I mean so let me ask you this

how many times a day do you check Twitter way too many like do you think 50 times I don't know you know what this week

I'll make a mental note of yeah paying attention to it because I've gone through periods where I take it off my phone yeah

you know and then I put it back on yeah whatever I go up and down on that kind of stuff yeah i um i follow your instagram stories pretty closely and i would say not that you need to hear this but high quality work oh thank you really good i i don't know if they're boring you know it's like does anyone like i'm yeah i'm here i'm back at the pool i'm doing the same thing again i did the other day like you still want to see this totally totally i mean i think it'd be funny if you like if you had your pull buoy and like your workout and like you just pulled over to the side of the highway and like put it down like

all right guys here's a workout today and just kind of like go go through you know i mean like really like a similar setting or like how you know anyway uh anyway so just know that when you post those i'm watching all right good i'm a huge fan i'll keep going well yeah i don't know where that then i'm like are they too long like i don't know whatever it's a it's yeah i'm always trying to find the right balance because the thing is you can you can become a prisoner of that like i always documenting everything you do and then you're like you're a slave to your own life like i want to be present in what i'm doing right where is that but i also understand the value in sharing what i'm doing and I get good feedback. People are enjoying it. So I want to be able to contribute to the community in that regard. But I have to find that fulcrum where it makes sense. So what is your personal favorite platform right now?

I'm loving the stories because then it just adds so much additional functionality to it. And that's where I get the most kind of feedback and engagement. Yeah. I think Twitter is my favorite thing to check to just see what's going on. Yeah. But the engagement level is not what it was a couple of years ago. Right. Like it's sort of, it seems like everyone's shouting and no one's listening.

Right. Everyone wants to be heard, but no one wants to listen to what anyone else is saying. So I go there for like news and to see what's going on culturally. Right. And, you know, I like to engage with people there as well but i think you know i think instagram right now is is kind of where things are and and then but this and then this is the last question i'll give your interview back over to you definitely hijack this but it's kind of part of my craft yeah um is during the last few months like we said earlier in this conversation kind of working with leaders to remind ourselves that we're not really political. Are you a political cat on your social media or do you play that safe or are you using the platform to, I mean, like, where are you? I have made a concerted effort to not be overtly political, but it's caused me some consternation.

effort to not be overtly political, but it's caused me some consternation. And I'm often thinking like, what is my responsibility to use the audience that I've built to express opinions that I think are important or my opinions on issues that I think are important. And so I've dipped my toe in it and done a little bit of it, but I try not to make it too much about that. There are a lot of people that are speaking to that much better than I am, but I try to make it understood kind of where I stand on everything without being a divisive voice. Because I feel like I'm in a position where I have the ability to capture the interest and the attention of a wide spectrum of people. And I don't see the point in unnecessarily alienating them from perhaps some information that might benefit them irrespective of where they're coming from politically. At the same time, when I see things happening to the environment and other things, there's just certain things that I just cannot, you know, I just can't not say something.

I just feel like I would be, I don't want to be 20 years from now somebody that my daughter looks to and says why didn't you say you had all these people following you you could have said something i don't want to be that guy either right so it's tricky i think yeah totally so well let me know when you figure that out yeah i'll let you know i'll email you i'll tweet at you at some point well we got to wrap this thing up how do we do like generally i think i think we're doing good how do you feel i feel great i feel great and all of the podcasts that you've done, this is the best one. It is the best one. It is.

Well, because we have to go long, you know? Yeah. A lot of podcasts are not sure how long you're going to go. When you go long, you get to really know who somebody is. And again, that goes to authenticity. It's like for me, it's much more important to me to have a real exchange with you. Right. Like sit in front of you and like,

we're going to share something and whether some information, the information that comes out of that is secondary to being present for whatever happens. Right. You know? Well, this is awesome, man.

I mean, it's great experience. I'll come here. We'll just do this every week. We can do it again, man. Yeah. So this is episode one.

I know you were trying to wrangle me into like you know dropping a verbal yeah you're like we're gonna do we're gonna work out all day first yeah dude but so i'm up for that but like also i was like yeah the first time i when i would do the podcast though i don't want to be all talked out by the time we do it so i'm glad that we did it this way and then next time i'll come down to san diego and we'll have a good time yeah i mean i don't want to hold it over your head, but you definitely owe me. I mean, that's kind of why I'm here. You came here to score. Brogan won.

Establish that there is a debt. Rich roll. Be repaid. Zero. All right, man. All right. So before we completely wrap this up, I always try to end it by leaving the listener with something that they can take away. And so

there's a lot of people out there that listen to the show that, you know, are perhaps stuck in a job that isn't doing it for them, or they just have trouble like getting out of bed in the morning, you know, let alone in the middle of, you know, Katrina, just trying to, you know, get a new habit to, you know, get a new habit with staying power, like whether it's fitness or diet or whatever it is, like, how do you speak to that? And what are some things that you could kind of like take us out with on that subject? Yeah, I think, um, I think that, um, at November project, we, we kind of shy away from, you know, the new year's resolution or looking at, you know, getting motivated by getting a new gym membership or the new piece's resolution or looking at getting motivated

by getting a new gym membership or the new piece of clothing or a new fad diet. But you know what? I think we've been around the block enough times that whatever you get psyched about, try a lot of different things and stay fired up.

If you're not fired up by your gym, quit your gym today. If you're not fired up about your job, make your gym today. If you're not fired up about your job, make a plan and get out of there or not, but make decisions instead of just sitting and, and complaining. I would also like to say that November project is open to everyone, but it,

because of how fun it is and because of how outside it is and sometimes hardcore, it's not for everyone. But I would recommend, whether it's November Project or just the Buffalo Wrap, just trying new stuff, you know? And I think a lot of people love the ethos of, yeah, like trying new things and meeting new people. And yet a lot of us don't talk to people on the train or get to know anyone at the

other table. And so I would urge people, whether they're younger in their younger stages of life, or they're in their last stages of life, that these little ripple effects, whether you're the leaders in Boston, sending a thousand athletes out into the city of Boston with smiles on their face to create a true ripple effect on a Wednesday morning, or if it's something as small as just having a small conversation while someone pours you that cup of coffee, I think that those little moments really matter. And if people ever underestimate the ripple effect, just rewind to the beginning of this podcast and remember how this thing started. It wasn't a couple of ideas, a couple of guys trying to build a brand on an idea. It was just a couple of guys that just thought about starting and trying something new.

And I know that seems a little bit elementary, but we, as leaders and members of this fanatic movement, are proof that shit can happen if you try new things and you're willing to just go outside the box and do it wholeheartedly. Good talking to you, man. Awesome. That was awesome. Sweet, dude. Good talking to you, man. Awesome. That was awesome. Sweet, dude.

We rocked it. We did great. Feeling good. Awesome. So if you're digging on Brogan, the best way to connect with him on Twitter, he's ArgoBats. Why are you ArgoBats on Twitter? It was a monogrammed backpack that I saw that I thought was hilarious,

and I laughed like LOL'd for a little bit, and no one in my area thought it was funny. And I just said the name a million times. There's someone out there named Argo Bats. Argo Bats. It was on a backpack and you just stole this guy's name and made it your Twitter? That's accurate. That's correct. And the guy never reached out to you and complained?

Yeah, he didn't. Argo Bats. So if you're out there, Argo. All right. even complained yeah he didn't argo bat so if you're out there argo all right but maybe uh maybe easier to find on instagram because it's brogan graham there right that's right and if you're interested in uh in in brogan's abs i got good news for you because there's a twitter account devoted to that called brogan's abs you can check that out you have done your homework. Yeah. And most importantly, uh, go to November projects website. No,

it's November dash project.com. Right. And, and see if there's a November project in your city or when you're traveling, find one and, uh, and check it out. Right.

And get your, uh, spray painted t-shirt. That's right. Earn your paint, earn your paint. And, uh,

and of course the book, man, plug your book. November course, the book, man. Plug your book. November Project, the book. Caleb Daniloff, Boyan Mandrick, as well as yours truly, put out by Rodale Publishing. Came out last April. It's totally sweet. A lot of photos.

But don't be fooled. It's pretty epic. It's like a graphic novel. It's a graphic novel. It's like, I don't know how to describe it. It's unlike any other book i've ever seen yeah it's like it's almost as if i was involving like i was trying to build the first book for me because like i'm like an add guy that could like close the book on anything so i was like it was tons of pictures

it's also there's a lot of people that spill their guts in it so don't overestimate it or underestimate it as something that's just kind of light it's not um but it tells the building blocks of the first three years of the movement and then showing up the film that came out last december on youtube just search showing up november project will come up yeah and like i said i'll put the show notes uh i'll put that in the show notes of people sweet right on dude we did it thanks so much we're out of here boom good we're gonna make a video now i think the gopro's make uh well i got a camera over there we'll make a little video trailer for the podcast. Yeah, yeah. We'll do that.

All right. All right. Thanks, man. Peace. Peace. Plants. All right. That was pretty sweet. The guy has amazing energy, right?

I just love it when a podcast guest just brings his or her A game and makes all the difference. And his message is super powerful. Hope you dug it. I really look forward to more collaborations. Collabs, I think is the cool kids call it, with BG, Brogan Graham in the future. If you would like to support this show and my work, the easiest way to do that is just share the podcast with your friends around the water cooler, at the dinner table, on social media. If you haven't done so already, leaving a review on iTunes is very helpful. Don't forget to click that subscribe button on iTunes or wherever you enjoy your podcast content. As always, big thanks to everybody who has made a habit of clicking through the Amazon banner ad

on my website for all your Amazon purchases or bookmarking it to your browser. It doesn't cost you anything extra on your Amazon purchases, but they do kick us some loose commission change. That's very supportive of the work that I do. And on that note, a mad shout out to everybody who has gone the extra mile to support my work financially through Patreon. I love you guys and really appreciate that. If you Doug Brogan, again, you can find him on Twitter. He's at ArgoBats, A-R-G-O-B-A-T-T-S.

I don't know why he picked that name. He still didn't answer that question to my satisfaction during the podcast, but whatever. He's easier to find on Instagram at Brogan Graham. And definitely check out November-Project.com for more information on NP. And while you're at that, I strongly suggest you watch their mini documentary, Showing Up. It's a really incredible little movie. I shared it in a roll call several months ago. I'll put a link to that in the show notes

on richroll.com as well on the episode page. And that's where you will also find copious additional links and resources and background on everything we talked about today and more. Once again, we're hosting a screening of the new documentary, What the Health. We'd love to have you there. It's March 29th in Thousand Oaks, California. Plant-based dinner by Joy, desserts by Karma Baker. Go to whatthehealthfilm.eventbrite.com for tickets

and information. Julie and I are going to be in Australia, in Sydney on March 16th, and Melbourne on March 17th, doing these incredible evening events. For more information on tickets on that, there's still tickets available. Go to livingtheplantpowerway.com or click on appearances on my website and you'll see the hyperlinks there. I'm also speaking in Pasadena at one of the Engine 2 events on March 26th. Also information about that on my website. If you would like to receive a free weekly email from me, I send something out every

Thursday called roll call. It's five or six things that I've come across over the course of the week that I'm enjoying or that have intrigued me. Usually articles, a podcast episode, a documentary I watched, a TV show I saw, a YouTube video, whatever. It can be all different kinds of things. Often it's things that I don't share on social media. The email is totally free.

I'm not trying to sell you anything. There's no affiliate links. I don't make any money off this. There's no spam, just good stuff. You can subscribe on my website. And when you're there on my site, you can go to the store where you can find all kinds of cool Plant Power merch and swag.

We got signed copies of Finding Ultra and the Plant Power Way. We got cool t-shirts, tech tees, sticker packs, all kinds of cool Plant Power merch and swag. We got signed copies of Finding Ultra and the Plant Power Way. We got cool t-shirts, tech tees, sticker packs, all kinds of fun stuff. Because who doesn't love stickers, right? I want to thank today's sponsors, Harry's, a superior shave at an affordable price. Friends of the Rich Roll podcast can visit harrys.com forward slash roll to redeem your free trial set, which comes with a razor, five-blade cartridge, shaving gel, and post-shave gel. All you got to do is pay the shipping. And Casper, the number one

online retailer of premium mattresses for a fraction of the price. Get $50 towards any mattress purchase today by visiting casper.com forward slash roll and using the promo code roll at checkout. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for all his hard work on audio engineering and production. Sean Patterson for all his killer graphics. He started creating these amazing motion graphics that I've been sharing on Instagram. Are you guys following me on Instagram at rich roll? I post them there. They're really cool with little audio clips and moving text and all kinds of amazing stuff. That is Sean. Thank you, Sean. Chris Swan for all his hard work on compiling the show notes and creating the architecture for these episodes and additional production assistance and theme music

by Analema. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'm off to Australia tomorrow. I'm recording this on Sunday morning, Monday night. I'm off to Australia. I've never been there before. Super excited to come at you guys next week from the land down under. And I'm going to be making more YouTube videos. I've made a concerted decision to invest in that platform a little bit more than I have over the last year. And hopefully I'm going to be bringing you some really fun stuff from both Sydney and Melbourne. So stay tuned for that. Take it easy, you guys. Have a great week. Talk to you soon. Peace. Plants. Stay true. Thank you.