The Rich Roll Podcast - Camille Herron: Crushing World Records, Narrowing The Gender Gap, And The Power of Happiness

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

She collects world records with wild abandon. With each race, she narrows the gender gap, rewriting the rulebook on human capability with a broad smile and arms outstretched. Meet force of nature Camille Herron. Alongside 21 marathon victories, Camille won the Comrades Marathon in 2017, becoming the first athlete to win World Championship titles in the 50K, 100K and clocking the most miles in 24 hours (167.8 to be specific) of any woman in history. Just after turning 40, earlier this year Camille took home a big win at the Jackpot 100, beating all the men and besting her own 100-mile Road World Record. In addition, Camille is the youngest woman to reach 100,000-lifetime running miles and she holds my favorite world record—fastest marathon in a superhero costume—running 2:48 dressed head to toe as Spiderwoman. Today she shares her unique story, in her own unique way. How can a woman who commits herself to such hellish feats of physical performance remain so joyous? Today we dissect it all: Camille’s relentless positivity, her unique backstory, her unique, quality over quantity training style, how she thinks about closing the gender gap in ultra running, the importance of strength training, how blood work has impacted her focus on nutrition, the difference between trail running and road running, her near term goals and future ambitions. We also talk about how she manages being married to her coach Conor Holt, how running can be self-transcendent, and many other interesting topics. More about Camille + show notes: https://bit.ly/richroll689 Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: https://bit.ly/camilleherron689a Camille is an unbridled optimist, a super fun hang, and an inspiration for all—especially for those of us pondering our athletic capabilities as we age up. Peace + Plants, Rich

I think about when I reached my mid-30s, I thought it was all downhill from here, but I feel like I'm reaching my prime right now. And I mean, it's incredible because here I've been a runner for 27 years and I'm still getting better. You know, at age 40, I'm somebody that doesn't really limit myself. If I set a goal for something, like I just go after it. I just, you know, bite down and go after that goals. It's not just me trying to reach a personal goal. I'm doing this for the world. I'm doing this to, you know, elevate the sport,

to raise the bar in what women think is possible. The Rich Roll Podcast. I've been known to host an ultra runner or two here on the show over the years. And for those of you who enjoy those types of conversations, you, my friends, are in for a treat because today's guest is no ordinary ultra runner. Camille Herron has been on an absolute tear as of late,

collecting world records with wild abandon and is well on her way to not only rewriting history when it comes to human capability, but also how we think about athletic ability as we age. Camille's accomplishments are far too numerous to list here, but highlights include 21 marathon victories, winning the Comrades Marathon in 2017, becoming the first athlete to win world championship titles

in the 50K, 100K, and 24 hours, and clocking the most miles in a 24-hour period, 167.8 to be specific, of any woman in history. Earlier this year at the Jackpot 100, just after turning 40, Camille won the race outright, beating all the men and bested her own 100-mile road world record by clocking 12 hours, 41 minutes. It's an effort that also earned her the 12-hour world record and a slew of master's world records as well. In addition,

Camille is the youngest woman to reach 100,000 lifetime running miles. She recently beat Harvey Lewis to outright win the strolling gym 40-er. And she holds my favorite world record, fastest marathon in a superhero costume, running 248 dressed head to toe as Spider Woman. Needless to say, Camille is a force of nature. This is just an awesome conversation and it's coming right up. But first.

coming right up. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care. Especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem, a problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com, who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders,

including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you.

Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. dot com. Okay. So the other really interesting thing about Camille is that similar to Courtney DeWalter, the ultra phenom she's often compared to, Camille is just a really happy and joyous person. So what is that all about? Well, what that's all about is something we definitely get into today, as well as her backstory, of course, her unique quality over quantity training style. We talk about how she thinks about narrowing the gender gap in ultra running, the importance of strength training, how blood work has impacted

her focus on nutrition, the difference between trail running and road running. We also talk about her near-term goals and future ambitions, how she manages being married to her coach, Connor Holt, how running can be self-transcendent, and many other interesting topics. Camille's a kick in the pants. She's also a super fun hang and just this unbridled optimist. And generally just amazingly inspiring, especially

for those of us who are pondering our athletic capabilities as we age up. My name is Rich Roll. This is the Rich Roll Podcast, and here we go, me and Camille Herron. Well, welcome to Los Angeles. Thank you. We have some nice weather for you. It got pretty warm. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's good for you, right? Like you need a little bit of heat acclimation as you're thinking about bad water sometime in your future, I would imagine, right? I'm trained for Western States right now. That's the big goal at the moment, right? So how's it all going? Oh, great.

Oh, great. I'm super fit. Yeah. I'm like already, you know, under seven weeks out right now and I've been road training and my speed is amazing right now. I mean, I just won a 40 miler last weekend. And I mean, that was a short speed work for me. I'm training more for a hundred miles and beyond. So running, you know, 40 miles was like a piece of cake. It seemed like, but I mean, it's still hilly. So it kind of, it's kind of priming me for Western States right now. And, but yeah, doing the trail run with Shannon

got me more on the trails and I just, I feel fast. Good. Super fast. Well, you are fast. I feel fast, yeah. And that 40 miler last week was a Laz race, right? And you took Harvey down to the mat. I did, I did. It was super fun.

I mean, like just, I mean, we love each other and I mean, it's just, you know, competitive spirit out there. And yeah, I mean, when Connor told me that he was two minutes behind and then 50 seconds behind and I only had a couple of miles to go, I said, it's time to go beast mode. Well, you're on like quite a tear.

I mean, you've had like an unbelievable last sort of 18 months of just ticking off world records and winning races. So the mojo that you have right now going into Western States has gotta be pretty empowering. Oh yeah, absolutely. I've, you know, of all the races I've got to win, you know, I've won Comrades

and the bucket list triple crown of ultras is to win Comrades Western States UTMB. So I'm really focused on Western States now. And you know, once I can take that off, then I can focus on UTMB and try to become the first athlete to win the triple crown of ultras. So, but yeah, I won Comrades back in 2017. And yeah, I've just, I've been focused more

on world records here the past couple of years. And now I'm kind of starting to focus more on trail running. And yeah, it's just really fun, so. Well, you're collecting world records like it's a bad habit. I can't even keep track of how many world records you have. And every time you do a race, multiple records fall because these races are so long.

And now that you're a masters athlete, you're collecting those along the way as well. So it's hard to even know where to start here. But I think maybe let's begin with the most recent, like the jackpot 100 mile world record, because that's the thing that got a lot of attention for you all of a sudden, and sort of took you out of the insular subculture

of ultra running and kind of put you in mainstream awareness because you got a lot of media attention for that. So walk me through how you broke this world record for running a hundred miles. Yeah, so fortunately I ran jackpot last year and that was the race that made me realize I had some issues with my health. And so I ended up doing a lot of blood work

right after that race and found out that I had high iron and low magnesium. So I was imbalanced in terms of my minerals. And so going into Western States last year, I had these health issues and I just didn't have time to really troubleshoot and get my health in balance for Western States. So after Western States in July, I started working with a dietician and she was the one that started altering my diet. I started doing what's called the root cause protocol to try and get my iron

down and get my magnesium up. And it's kind of this quirky diet that I have to consume. And so she was the one that got me consuming, changing my diet a bit. And that was what relit the inferno that I've been missing the past couple of years. So I was really determined. I've been on quite a tear. I won the Javelin 100. I went to Desert Solstice. Yeah, I've just been breaking records. Desert Solstice was a 24-hour race. Yeah. So I ended up, yeah, I ended up, I was actually pacing for 24 hours and I ended up deciding to stop at 100 miles because I was having a bit of a knee issue at that race. But I ended up breaking my world record for 100 miles on the track. So I still got records at that race.

And then I was able to recover from that race and go into jackpot 100, just really ready to redeem myself. And I knew I had a really good competitive field for both the men and the women. And yeah, I mean, I was training, you know, pretty, pretty conservatively because it was kind of early, you know, in January and I'm obviously trying to build up for Western States. So yeah, training for jackpot and the races in February. And so it's kind of an early season race. So I wasn't training super hard in January. I was just training, you know, pretty modestly going into it. And then on top of it, we decided to move back to Oklahoma, which is my home state. And, and so, yeah, we did that, like, I don't know, it was like two weeks before jackpot, but I felt like just getting

back to being around my friends and my family kind of gave me a bit of a boost going into the jackpot 100. And yeah, I mean, I just went in like, you know, pretty open-minded with, you know, not knowing if I could go for my world records, but obviously ready to redeem myself and have a really good performance after last year's race, so. Right, so the jackpot for people who don't know is in Las Vegas. And it's sort of a little bit over, it's like a 1.2 mile loop or something like that.

You do like 85 loops. And what's interesting is that it's a public park, right? It's open, like people are walking their dogs and pushing their kids in strollers. And you kind of have to dodge those people as you're running around, right? Yeah, yeah. Do they even know what's going on?

It's pretty wild. I mean, when I look at my GPS after the race, I think I had like 100.1 miles. So, who knows how much of that is weaving. With sidestepping, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty used to that because when I go to the 24-hour world championship, I'm weaving around people for 24 hours.

So obviously there's a little bit of the added challenge of trying not to trip and fall and a little bit of extra added mileage that you have to do. But yeah, I actually, going into Jackpot 100, I mean, the men took off, you know, I let the men go and I said, I'm going to run my own race and just see what happens. You know, I really trusted myself that I was going to be strong later in the race because women tend to be really strong later in the races. And so I just had that trust in myself that I was going to chase down the men.

And sure enough, it started to happen, you know, after 50 miles. I mean, I caught a couple of the men and before I know it, I'm chasing down the top man, Arlen Glick, after 80 miles. And so in my mind, that's like, you know, taking the bull by the horns. Like I grew up in Oklahoma and I always have this mental image of this bull behind our house when I grew up and imagine myself, you know, take the bull by the horns and staring him in the eyes

and just, you know, just ride the bull, you know. So for perspective, you win that race in 12 hours and 41 minutes, so that's a 737 pace, right? Yeah. And I think some of your last miles were around the seven minute mark or even below that, like you were just killing it all the way to the end.

Yeah, yeah, it was super fun. I think of myself, I grew up as a basketball player, and I think of Michael Jordan, you know, nailing the free throws, you know, to win the championship. And in my mind that that's what it's about. It's about that feeling of, you know, being on the free throw line, trying to nail the free throws. And so, you know, I channel a lot of thoughts.

Everybody wants to know what's going in my head. And, I mean, I grew up as a basketball player learning how to shoot free throws because of my dad. And so when I'm in that position to, you know, take the bull by the horn, shoot the free throws, I mean, I just really step up my game. And I think that that's what I'm really good at, you know, bringing out the best in me,

you know, at those clutch moments when, you know, I have that opportunity to break a world record or to win a world championship. Like that's what I do best. Yeah. There's so much in everything you just said about the nutrition stuff and the blood work, also the confidence in your race strategy and how you think about pace. And I want to get into all of that, but let's talk about you growing up in Oklahoma, your father and your grandfather were both basketball players at University of Oklahoma. And there's this sort of legendary story out there

about when you're seven years old and you're shooting free throws for like hours and hours and hours without water. Like this is deeply woven into like your DNA, like this idea of persistence and hard work and determination and athletic prowess. Yeah, absolutely. I got it from my dad and my grandpa. And, you know, there's four kids in my family. And of all the kids, I was the one that was athletic and really aspired to be like my grandpa and my dad. And our mom is also a great athlete as well.

She was a really good swimmer and golfer. And I was just telling my friend Shannon last night, I was like, the first sport I learned how to play was actually golf. We lived out in the country and I'm the type of person that's pretty OCD. I mean, I grew up, you know, obviously playing basketball,

dribbling, shooting the ball in the driveway, but golf was actually the sport that I first learned from my parents. And I used to hit golf balls, like just relentlessly, like out into the field. And then I would go out there with a bucket and, you know, grab all these balls. But I mean, I wanted to be like my dad and my grandpa because I'm built like them. I'm tall and lean and I've just got the athletic genes. And my dad was always like, oh, we played basketball for six hours without water. And you don't want to tell your- You're like, I can do that.

You don't wanna tell your- You're like, I can do that. Exactly, yeah. In my mind, like I had it in my mind that I had to push myself like they did without water. And I mean, I would do that. It's not like they forced me to do it. I just thought that's what I had to do. And so I'd be practicing in the driveway

until I'm blacking out. And then I would run inside and my mom would have a big bowl of sweet tea and make some ice sweet tea and like have a sandwich and soup and pickles and I would get energized and I would go back out and I'd keep practicing. And so, it was like I was training for ultras without even realizing it.

Right, right, right. And it sounds like it was all very self-motivated. I mean, your father and your grandfather were examples, but what I didn't hear is you say they were pushing you, like this was coming from within you. Yeah, absolutely. I was just relentless. I just had drive.

Like I was competitive, I was driven. I used to play basketball with the boys in our neighborhood. And even at school, I played with the boys. And in fact, one of my childhood friends, he remembered me running in elementary school. And I totally forgot about that. But I mean, some of my childhood friends remember me playing sports with the boys. And I just didn't even think anything of them being better than me. I just grew up with this mindset of I'm going to beat the boys and I just, I didn't even think anything of, you know, them being better than me. I just, I just grew up with this mindset of I'm going to beat the boys. I'm going to,

you know, outrun them. I'm going to outplay them on the court. And yeah, that was my mindset. Right. And that's exactly what you're doing today. Killing all the dudes. Where do you make the transition from basketball to running? Yeah. So, yeah, so I, I, I was a, so I was a pretty good runner in elementary school. In fact, I totally forget about that, but my friends bring it up. We used to run the presidential physical fitness mile in elementary school, and I was the best girl at my school.

And they used to actually run the boys and the girls separate. And then I'd be having to compare my time to the boys cause none of the girls could keep up. And so, uh, I always wish I could race the boys, uh, cause I think I could have, you know, run faster. Um, but yeah, then in the seventh grade, uh, we had to go out for, I was a basketball player and everybody had to go out for track, uh, for our off season conditioning. And from the first day, I mean, I could just run and run and run just relentless.

Like I didn't get tired. And I remember like all the other girls. It's shocking to you. I mean, like your energy is like off the chain. Yeah, I had so much energy and I mean, it makes sense. Cause I was a point guard on the court. And my strategy as a point guard was always to try and like run all over the place and wear out whoever was guarding me. And I knew I could outlast them.

And so when I went out for track, it was obvious. Like from the first run, I remember running loops around the school and the other girls would start walking and I'm just full of energy. I just kept going. So, um, so yeah, I just, that's kind of what planted the seed in my mind. Like, Oh, this is really easy for me. Um, and then I went out for cross country in the eighth grade and I remember my first cross country race and all the other little girls looked like me and I've always been a string bean and, and yeah, going out for cross country was like this epiphany.

Like, wow, I think this is what I'm supposed to do. This is my tribe. All these kids look like me, like now they're into the same stuff and all of that. And that was that from then on out. Oh, I was hooked. I was absolutely hooked. I mean, cross country,

because we grew up out in the country running around the wheat fields by our house, cross country, because we grew up out in the country running around the wheat fields by our house. And cross country was that same feeling. Like I felt like cross country is what really got me hooked on running. And I felt like that's what I, that's what my calling is to, you know, to be a runner. And so I actually didn't get my height until I was in high school and after I had quit basketball. And so it's really funny because, you know, maybe I could have gone on with the basketball. Like I wonder, you know, so in fact, my husband bought me a basketball a couple of years ago and he had never seen me with

a basketball and he was just really shocked because, and I hadn't even practiced or done anything in years. And my husband just saw this whole other side of me as an athlete. And yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny to wonder, what if I had gone on with the basketball? Yeah, like some kind of sliding doors thing where had you just moved a little bit over

in the other direction, you'd be playing in the WNBA right now. And breaking records for, I don't know, being one of the older people doing it and still killing everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I could have been, I could have probably, you know, been a good rower. I probably could have been good endurance for any, any other sport, you know, that's comparable. Um, I mean, I learned how to row like 10 years ago and, um, I just easily picked it up. And I almost thought like, do I switch sports? You could do an Ironman. Your mom was a swimmer, right? There's that too.

I wasn't really a swimmer. I was more of a land sport athlete, but yeah, funny enough, I did not become a swimmer because I fell into a pool when I was three and I almost drowned. because I fell into a pool when I was three and I almost drowned. And my mom had to dive in and get me. And I was pretty traumatized from the water. And that's pretty much why I did not become a swimmer. That's so sad. We can work through that trauma.

I know. We can unpack that here and get you back in the pool. So you've just surpassed your 100,000th mile of running. I don't know how you've tracked all of this going all the way back to then. I guess it's a bit of an honor system in this world of like people who have run more than 100,000 miles,

but it began back then. And it sounds like you had success from the outset. I mean, what was it like in high school when you were running cross country and developing your skill? Yeah, so when I first started tracking my mileage and was like kind of loosely back in junior high and high school, just kept a calendar.

And my dad is, he's like a statistician and historian and he's kind of the one that planted the seed to be able to track my mileage to see what my training load is, you know, and try to figure out, you know, like not to increase my mileage too much and that sort of thing. So I just kind of loosely tracked it back then. But I actually started tracking it in more detail back in 2002 when I was in college. I was in a research study at Stanford and I had to start tracking my mileage back then in more

detail. And so that's when I started keeping my first proper training log. And I have all my mileage tracked since 2002. Wow. And yeah, and I, because I'm a bit of a stats geek, which, you know, I credit to my dad and I learned how to do spreadsheets and keeping stats, you know, with spreadsheets. And like, I have all this like detailed information on like entries and just, yeah, like paces, everything. Right, numbers geek.

And I think with that, I think you're the youngest to have surpassed 100,000 miles, right? So there's another record. There's no way I know how many records you're breaking, but I love the attention to detail and the math and the statistics. I think, you know, I'm sure you get compared to Courtney DeWalter like all the time, right?

And there's so many, just in spending a few minutes with you, I can already like identify all these sort of similar personality traits, like the joyfulness, the happiness, the enthusiasm. And there is a sort of happy go lucky attitude, but I think what differentiates you from her is that like attention, like the math side of you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a math geek. I, uh, I was on the math team when I was

in junior high and, uh, academic teams. And I credit my dad for being the one that, I mean, I used to help my dad with baseball cards and learning baseball stats. And so when I got into running, I'm learning running stats and, you know, times and, uh, track and field. And yeah, I got into running, I'm learning running stats and times and track and field. And yeah, I'm a total like running dork. So. Right, right, right. So you go on to this illustrious career on the road. I mean, you've won like 21 marathons, is that right? Yeah. You won comrades.

That was in 2017. Yeah. I mean, that had to be a career highlight winning that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, that had to be a career highlight winning that race. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I actually, after I won Comrades, I thought I could retire. Yeah, I mean, what's left? All those thousands of people cheering you on. I mean, I can't imagine much could live up to that.

No, I, yeah, I literally, the month after that race, I was like, I think I can retire now. And I had to reformulate my goals. Um, I, and I realized like, oh, there's all these world records I can go after. And, um, you know, that was kind of at the beginning of my ultra career. And a lot of people were trying to push me into trail running and I started getting my feet wet and doing trail running, but I really had to follow my heart and my heart was telling me to go after the world records. So after I won comrades in June,

later in the fall is when I started setting like the 12 hour, a hundred mile world records. And yeah, that was, you know, what started me like, yeah. You're like, this is easy. This is like low hanging fruit for me. I think it's unique and interesting that you're coming into ultra running with this illustrious career on the road.

So you have all this speed, right? Like a lot of people who get into ultra running don't have that type of background or that type of success in other areas of running. So you're bringing this new elite level of being able to just crush it in terms of pace that's new. And then the question becomes, can that be extended? Right?

And you're proving like, actually it can. And that's the way that you train also. You're still training like an elite marathon or not like how we think about ultra distance trail runners where it's just go out and run really long as many times a week as you possibly can. Yeah, exactly. I think that that's what differentiates me

is that I had a marathon in career for 10 years and I just brought my marathon training approach into ultra running. And literally for my first 100K, I broke my first record by Anne Trayson. And I mean, I was pretty naive. I didn't know how ultra runners train. I didn't even know who Anne Trayson was.

Like I had read about her. I guess everybody read Born to Run. And I had read that back when I was a marathoner. But I didn't really know like anything about the sport, how the athletes train. I just came into the sport with a marathon training approach and started breaking records. And I figured why change what works? And so I've been able to go longer with marathon training and continued to break the records.

And I haven't really found a limitation to the way that I train. Obviously if I'm training for trail, I do more trail running, but I'm still, you know, that foundation of being a marathon training, you know, works for, it's worked all the way up to 24 hours so far.

Right, and you're not doing crazy long runs. Like your longest runs are between 18 and 22 and you only do that every couple of weeks, right? Yeah, yeah. In fact, I was just telling my friend Shannon this morning, I was like, the longest training run I've done the past five years is 22 miles. And I, yeah.

And so I told her, I was like, the only time I ever go further than that is if I race. So it's almost like the races. But you are racing a lot. Yeah. So that is part of the training. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I just ran a 40 miler last weekend.

Why do I need to do more long runs when I just ran 40 miles? So I think racing is training. Racing develops your fitness as well. And so I just really focus on recovering between my races and making sure I feel really good and do a lot of quality work, which is really important. Trying to keep in touch with my leg speed

is super important. I find if I get away from my leg speed too much that I get a little bit flat. And so, you know, coming from a short distance background, I still kind of have to tap into that, so. Yeah, a couple observations with that, just so people aren't confused. It's not like you're not training.

I mean, you run twice a day most days, right? So you're still crossing over the 100 miles a week mark pretty consistently, right? Yeah, yeah, I get in, you know, 100, 130 miles per week, but I do it in 12 to 13 runs a week. So yeah, I'm just doing short, mainly short frequent runs. And then, you know, every couple of weeks I might do a long run or I'll do a race. Um, but really it's just, you know, I feel like I recover really well, uh, with my training approach and I feel really good and

energized and it makes me really feel really fresh and strong when I go into races that I'm not beat down from a lot of long runs. And I, yeah, in fact, when I, when I first got into the sport, I mean, I, I kind of experimented with doing, you know, 30 mile plus training runs. And I found that I just felt tired trying to do that. So when I went back down to shorten my long runs and went back down to only 18 to 22 mile long runs every couple of weeks, that's when I started to feel fresher. Right, fresher, able to bounce back more quickly. And that way your training sessions

are of a higher quality in general, right? Yeah. Your husband Connor is here. He's your coach, he has been for a long time. I'm interested in getting like really nitty gritty and detailed about the training. Like what is the ratio of like the easy runs to the hard tempo speed work?

Like it appears that you train on the polarities, either you're going really chill or you're crushing intervals at the other end of that spectrum. Yeah, actually Strava is really helpful for knowing kind of the stats on my training. I think that last year it said that 86% of my training was easy and considered an easy pace. And what's easy?

So for me, like I guess on road, that would be like an eight to nine minute per mile pace. On trail, it might be quite a bit slower. On trail, it might be quite a bit slower. But yeah, I mean, I'm going about 65% to 70% of max heart rate effort as my easy pace. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm doing 86% is pretty aerobic, easy type of training. And then my hard days are very hard. And like, I might be doing like, I don't know, anywhere between six to 18 miles at like a pretty hard, hard effort. And so we operate pretty much on a two week training cycle where we have short intervals, long intervals,

a hill session and a progression run. So in between those four main workouts, it's just easy aerobic training, running twice a day. And so, yeah, being a 24 hour runner, I have to be used to training multiple times a day and being comfortable early morning or late at night. And so, yeah, I just get myself comfortable for that. Right.

So yeah, you like to do the evening runs, don't you? Yes. Yeah. How much of the tempo and hard efforts are like track-based or interval-based, you know, in that kind of traditional track and field approach versus like, oh, I'm just going out on the road and it's gonna be six miles at this level of intensity.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if I'm doing 14% of my training, I mean, I do like 90 second repeats is like kind of my short sprint type workouts. I mean, that's like, I usually do it on road too. I don't do it on track. I hate the track, which is really funny. I absolutely hate the track. I don't train on the track at all.

So I do everything on road and I do like 90 second repeats, maybe like five to six minute long intervals and sometimes maybe two miles or three mile intervals, which might be like half marathon or marathon pace. And then my progression runs might be anywhere between 30 to 60 minutes where I progress it from about 80% of max heart rate effort up to 90%. And so, yeah, when I race 50 miles to 100K, that I equate that to about 80% of max heart rate effort. And then when I run 100 miles, it's like 75% max heart rate. And then when you do 24 hours, that's more like a super chill, like 65 to 70% max heart rate.

And you wear a heart rate strap, chest strap to gauge all of that and monitor it? Yeah, yeah. What's your max heart rate? Yeah, actually I've kind of gotten, it hasn't really dropped that much. And since I've been tested, I was tested when I was in grad school on a treadmill

and figured it out. I think back then I think it was like maybe 198. And yeah, I mean like 15 years later, it's still like one, probably about 192 to 194. So if you're running 100 mile ultra and you're trying to keep it right at 75% of max for the whole time, that's like what, 145 or somewhere around that, right?

Yeah, about 145 to 150. But I don't wear my heart rate strap during the race. I just practice it in training and get a feel for the effort that I wanna go at. And then when I do the race, it's all just effort-based. And then eventually like, you know, 80 miles into the race is in my mind. Forget that and then you just go.

Yeah. Just ditch it and just run as hard as I can, yeah. Do you do proper lactate testing also? I haven't done that. For numbers geek, I'm surprised. I know, yeah. Do you do proper lactate testing also? I haven't done that. For numbers geek, I'm surprised. I know, I know. But funny enough, like my research that I did as an undergrad was blood lactate testing

with strength training. And so I got familiar with blood lactate testing with strength training. I've actually never done it on myself, but when I do my heart rate-based progression runs, I push it up to the point where I start to fill my blood lactate and know what my heart rate is for that. And then I train so that my heart rate is just below that, so that I'm training my blood lactate threshold. Right. So you have this massive aerobic capacity where you can train and race at 75 to 80% of max heart rate

without creeping into that anaerobic zone. But it would be cool though, you should get, it would be amazing to look at that graph and to see where it is exactly and then track it over time. Because I think what's really interesting about you now being 40 and being this master's athlete and somebody who's entered the sport with a huge amount of speed, obviously as we get older,

the speed becomes harder to hold onto. And that's like your secret weapon right now. So it's like double down on that. How can I leverage this speed and blow the lid on all these world records? But at the same time, what's exciting is that as that speed will naturally wither with age, just no matter what you do,

you have this whole realm of continuing to be able to develop your aerobic capacity as an endurance athlete, right? Which is sort of like with you doing the shorter stuff and not doing the longer stuff, I feel like there's a lot of room to grow there that will serve you well as you kind of continue along. Yeah, I feel like definitely's a lot of room to grow there that will serve you well as you kind of continue along. Yeah, well, I feel like definitely I'm physically stronger

since I've gotten older. And I know that because when I start to do like these progression runs, starting at like my 100 mile effort, like 75% working up to 80, 90%, my pace is faster and it feels easier. And I like the things I'm doing now, I couldn't do five years ago. I've just got this strength, this physical strength that I didn't have. And so I feel like maybe what I had in, uh, there's kind of been this shift in like,

you know, maybe I was faster, you know, 10 years ago, but I didn't have the strength. And now I'm kind of like more strength and able to hold that speed. So, um, it years ago, but I didn't have the strength. And now I'm kind of like more strength and able to hold that speed. So it's really interesting. I feel like I'm like in my prime right now. I've like got this really good balance for both speed and strength. And it's really more my strength

that is allowing me to do amazing things. Right, and you have been doing more strength work, right? Like I know you've got like a squat rack and you're kind of focused on that in a way that you didn't use to. Yeah, yeah, we bought a squat rack a year ago and I mean, I'd always worked like my upper body and I'd always just let the training

like take care of my lower body. And, but I was in a car accident three years ago and I injured my back and I've had a lot of breakdown on the right side of my body. And I've had to drop from races because my body was breaking down. And I finally said, I need to work on this. I need to work on whole body strength.

And so we bought the squat rack and working my back has made such a difference. Like it's just kind of unraveled all these kinks that I developed on the right side of my body. And I feel that when I race, especially like later when I'm running a hundred miles, I feel it later in the race. Like I feel like my form and my posture is a lot better.

In addition to squats, what other dry land strength stuff do you do? Gosh, yeah, I mean, we've got a gym and I have like a bench and I've really kinda, I mean, I've gone through different protocols over the years of just either doing upper body or some combo of upper body and lower body. And really I've just got it down

to four main exercises that I do. And so I do the bench press and pushups and squats and deadlifts. And that's it. That's it. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

It seems to be working, right? Absolutely. And I love this idea of racing at 75% of max heart rate. Like it's so simple. And that just then dictates your strategy. So you mentioned earlier at jackpot in these other races, like the men dart off the starting line and it's easy to fall into like forgetting

about your race strategy. Oh my God, they're getting away. I need to like match pace, but you're like, no, this is what I'm doing. This is a long day, right? And then, you know, come eight hours into it or whatever, you start to like, you know, oh, there they are. They're falling apart and I'm still good.

Just stick to what I'm doing. Because in those races, you're not really racing anyone else. No. You're just racing yourself, right? Yeah. And to have a clear strategy that works for you and the confidence to maintain it,

even when there's all this other stuff happening around you that you can't control, I think is really powerful. Totally, I just think I have a bit of maturity in the sport that I feel like I'm a veteran now and that I can be more confident in pulling back the reins earlier in the race and trusting that I can sustain it better later in the race. And so I think it's just taken me time to get that feeling

and to know that I don't have to go out with the men, that I can pull it back and kind of work more with my natural physiology. And it's been working really, really well. And even on the trails, everybody's like, well, how do you translate that effort to the trails? And I feel like I have such a good sense of what 75% effort feels like that even when I get on the trials, I can channel that effort.

And yeah, and I just have that confidence that later in the race, I'm gonna start to gain on the men. Yeah, well, you've been killing it on the track and on the road. And I think you would agree, like you've excelled in these road ultras and in races that are relatively flat. I mean, Jackpot had 3000 feet of elevation gain

and you broke the world record. Like what would happen on a totally flat track? Yeah. I guess we'll find out because you'll no doubt do that at some point. But trails is sort of a new terrain for you to conquer, right? Yeah. A lot of elevation gain, a lot of technical running. Like how are you reconfiguring your training

or maybe you're not to figure out that equation? Yeah, well, I found that I tend to do better on the trails if I'm really more focused on road and to get my turnover going. Even running this morning, I mean, I got on trails with a lot of like climbing and descents and I was like, whoa, it's, I mean, I grew up, I grew up like just to kind of give the analogy, I grew up playing the French horn and we used to buzz into the mouthpiece. And once you'd put the mouthpiece on the instrument, you're just like, woo,

just kind of like singing on the instrument. And that's kind of what it feels like when I really channel a lot of my road training and my leg speed and then bring it to the trails, it's just like I'm flying uphill and downhill. And I think that really the key for me that I found when I have done like kind of more technical trail races is I just have to like practice and get that technical skill. And I've been really working

on that the past year. We lived in Arizona for a while and I was running on more like technical rocky stuff. And I feel like I kind of gained a better sense of how to control my body on more technical terrain. And it's actually becoming more fun. Like I think like maybe five, six years ago when I got into trail running, it was kind of intimidating. And now I feel like I'm kind of like getting that sense of how to control the movement of my body

on technical terrain. And so, yeah, I mean, obviously I've been more focused on road and track stuff, but I'm really, really excited to get into more trail running and just see what I can do. Yeah, I think the strength training probably is very helpful in that like sort of body stability, because now you're kind of all over the place.

I mean, when you're on the road or the track, it's like a metronome, right? Like you just get into your pace and you just do your thing and you're doing these loops or whatever, and it becomes this mental game, but it's very steady state, right? Whereas in a trail, even when it's an ultra, like you're up, you're down, you're flat, you're descending,

like your heart rate isn't gonna be like completely in the same place every time. So it's about training your body to be able to come back to baseline more quickly or be able to bounce back and adapt to all of those different inputs. Yeah, I think it's fun. Even, I mean, I went and ran a Havalina last fall and getting back on trail and, you know,

just flowing with that terrain and the technicality, I feel like I'm gaining a better sense of how to, I guess, like throttle my gears like a bike, you know, knowing when to pull back and when to push. And it's fun for me. I feel like, like you said, I mean, I'm used to the road and track stuff being a metronome, but I get on trail and it's kind of this like, you know, throttling your gears and learning how to move with the terrain. And it's fun. It's beautiful. I really like the camaraderie out there, like just going through the aid stations

and seeing people and they're cheering me on and like that really amps you up. Are you thinking, who is your competition at Western States or do you not even think about that? You're just thinking about what you need to do for you. Yeah, I think I'm really somebody that focuses internally on my own effort. And yeah, I mean, I think it's been working really well that I've been more channeling my own internal effort

and then maybe catching people later in the race. It takes confidence to be able to do that, to be able to say that, okay, maybe I need to hold back earlier in the race to be stronger later in the race. I think everybody's kind of known me as somebody that goes out really hard. And obviously, you know, I work at a different pace than most people. So even like me looking like I'm going out hard,

I might be still pulling it back, you know, and in my mind I'm running controlled and, you know, waiting for 80 miles or later in the race to, you know, really just kick it in. How do you think about the gender gap? Because in ultra running, maybe more than almost any other sport, we're seeing the women excel at a level in terms,

in comparison, like in this ratio to men's performances that I think is super fascinating. Like the endurance capacity of the female body, particularly as we get older, the proof is in the pudding. Like you're matching stride for stride with the guys if not beating them out right. I mean, Harvey Lewis is one of the best ultra runners in the world and you just beat him in a 40 miler last week.

Like it's crazy, right? And I think when you look at world record comparisons between men and women, I don't know how it breaks down in terms of that ratio, but it's much slimmer in ultra running, right? Like your 100 mile world record compared to the men's, it's not, you know, they're not going that much faster than you.

Yeah, well, that was the thing that was really interesting. It seemed like the longer I went that the closer the gap got between me and the men's world records. And it's funny because now the men's world records have been raised by Alexander Sorokin. Yeah, that Lithuanian guy. Yeah. So I think I was running, I think it was at like 9.4% off the men's 100 mile world record. And then he's taken it to a whole other level. But that's the way it's supposed to be. Now you have something more to chase.

Exactly. I feel like, I mean, I'm inspired by what he's doing and it actually motivates me thinking, okay, maybe I need to really step up my game for 100 miles. Yeah, what did he do? 1141 or something like that? What was his? Oh gosh, I think he did like 1051.

Yeah, 1051. So he's running 631 miles. Yeah, it's amazing. And I mean, the record before he started breaking it was by Zach Bitter. I think he'd run like 1119. So, I mean, he's almost improved it by 30 minutes and it's like, oh my gosh, I need to get on a track and improve my world records. And so,

yeah, I mean, I'm super, it's super cool to see. I mean, I was doing it, you know, setting world records and then Zach Bitter did it and then now Sorikin's doing it. I mean, we just keep raising the bar and it's super cool. But I think on the right conditions, you could break 12 hours. Don't you think? I think I can. John Olson, he was on the 24-hour team. So John Olson, I think I surpassed John Olson for 24 hours and he's run 1159 for a hundred miles. So that kind of puts me in the ballpark of like, could I run 1150 something for a hundred miles, but it's going to take like the right conditions and, you know, being probably being on a track and just being really dialed in for that. So, yeah. I wanna go back to this nutrition piece because you mentioned getting blood work

and having some indications that you needed to make some corrections. I don't wanna just blow past that because I think it's really interesting. So tell me more about how you were feeling. You get this blood test, you get these results and kind of what happened. Yeah, well, it was pretty shocking.

I mean, you hear of endurance athletes getting anemia and having low iron, and I found out I had the opposite problem. So I had high iron. And I think the thing is like a lot of athletes think that they just have to test their ferritin. And I ended up having a full iron panel done with inside tracker. And all these iron markers were like way off the charts.

And I was just shocked because here I've been checking my ferritin for many years. And it's always been like kind of in the normal range. And then I go and get all these other iron markers tested and they're like off the charts. And it totally made sense to me because here I was just having trouble. Like I almost thought I was anemic. I felt like I was having symptoms that mimicked anemia because I was really tired in my training

and I'm trying to take more iron thinking that I'm anemic and then find out that I ended up having high iron. And so it was just really shocking. And I found that it's actually hard to get your iron down. Right, you can supplement to boost it, but how do you lower it if it's high without like bloodletting or donating blood, right? Yeah, so I mean, your body recycles iron

from what I've learned is your body's recycling iron. So your body actually holds on to iron pretty well. And so I've had to like work with a dietician with kind of these quirky, like balancing my copper and my magnesium and like, because it all kind of interplays together. But I've been having a lot of blood taken out, like blood draws for blood tests

the past year. And if I wasn't an endurance athlete, I would probably be donating blood, like a pint of blood to try and get my iron down because that's really the solution to really get it down. But being an endurance athlete, if I had a pint of blood taken out, who knows how it would impact my recovery. So it's interesting, you're using InsideTracker. I just started using it and we're working with them on the podcast. And I just got my blood results back

and my ferritin was low, but my iron was high. Yeah. I don't know what that means. And I was like, I need to figure out what that means exactly. How can my iron be high and my fer I don't know what that means. And I was like, I need to figure out what that means exactly. How can my iron be high and my ferritin levels be on the lower side? Yeah, I've actually asked my dietician about that. I'm like, why is all my markers high?

And then some people are like low, but then still like transferrin saturation or whatever could be high. And she says it's like iron dysregulation that I guess like the body could be under a lot of stress. And so for some reason, like it just causes like this imbalance of the markers. So yeah, I would suggest working with a dietician because they're kind of the brains to know what to do.

But it is unusual that you have these high ferritin levels. What causes that? How could you, was it because you were supplementing, thinking you were low, or what contributed to your iron levels being so high? Yeah, so I actually had the genetics test done for hemochromatosis, and I don't have the genetics, but apparently my body just naturally

like really absorbs and holds onto iron. And so when we were living in Colorado, I was supplementing with iron, thinking that that was the sensible thing to do. And because I learned since then that my body like retains iron really well, that I started getting really tired living in Colorado. And that was when I thought,

like, is my body just not doing well? Like being at high altitude. living in Colorado. And that was when I thought, is my body just not doing well, being at high altitude? Well, the altitude must have had some impact on it as well, because it's telling your body, we need more red blood cells, hold onto the, the iron is what captures the oxygen. Yeah, it was really interesting living in Colorado and feeling like something is, my body's just off. And I thought I needed more iron and I'm trying to supplement with more iron, not knowing that my body holds on to iron really well.

And so I was just making the problem worse without knowing it. And so we ended up deciding to move back down to lower altitude thinking, well, the high altitude isn't working for me. But the funny thing is, like if I had been living at high altitude and not supplementing with iron, I probably would have been okay because it probably would have helped to better regulate my iron and keep my blood values down.

And I probably would have felt fine. But the fact that I was supplementing with iron when my body didn't need it, that it just went like just crazy. And how long has it taken to get it back to normal? Yeah, so I mean, I've been on this special diet for a year and some of my iron markers are still a little bit high, but they've gotten down.

And I'm just going by how I feel. I felt so much better since I've been working with this special diet and having like these minimal blood draws done. And what is the diet specifically? What does it look like? Yeah, it's kind of quirky. I don't know how to describe what I'm doing. It's called the root cause protocol. And so I was supposed to rebalance, like it's supposed to like taking in more copper and trying to get my copper up.

And yeah, and I've been taking a lot of magnesium because my magnesium was low as well. And so I guess if you want to know like the chemistry, you know, you're working with all these cations, these two plus cations, because iron is a two plus cation. And so you're trying with all these cations, these two plus cations, because iron is a two plus cation. And so you're trying to rebalance and restrict the iron absorption

by taking in more of the other cation, the two plus cations. Right, I don't even know, what does that mean? Yeah, the chemistry, I know, I'm like, yeah. So what foods are high in copper? Like do you supplement with that or is that just in the choices of foods that are on your plate?

Yeah, I'm kind of like leaving that up to the dietician, but I'm taking a lot of nuts. There's a lot of different nuts that I'm taking and there's like bee pollen. I'm taking mineral drops that have like boron in them and a bunch of different things. And yeah, it's kind of quirky. I don't really know.

I'm taking like a lot of sodium, which is also two plus cation. And so it's kind of this quirky balance that is supposed to rebalance my minerals. And I'm just working with it. Yeah, no, I got it. And this also affects how you fuel during races, right? You're taking like mineral drops in the middle of a race.

So tell me about how you think about race nutrition and how that works. Yeah, so one of the symptoms of, I think of the whole iron overload is I started having GI issues, even going back to the 24-Hour World Championship back in 2019. And so I think like when you have a lot of iron

in your body, it causes oxidative stress. And so it was kind of stressing my gut. It was stressing like just like a lot of, I was having a lot of weird health issues. And so since we've been able to rebalance my minerals and my iron and taking mineral drops during races, like I stopped having my gut problems and it's been amazing because I'm somebody

that has generally not had gut problems during races. I'm somebody that has a bit of an iron gut. So for me to be getting gut problems during races was really unusual. And so, yeah, since we've changed my diet and I'm putting like mineral drops in my water during races, like I feel like a million bucks. Wow, that's super interesting.

Yeah, it really is. Cause I haven't really heard a story like that before, but I think that's fascinating. It would be good to see like a full study on what exactly it is that you're doing. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in that. Yeah, yeah, I'm actually working with InsideTracker and they're tracking my blood markers leading up to Western States. And so, yeah, and I've had a lot of blood work the whole

past year. And even looking at things like vitamin A, vitamin D, and just all these biomarkers. And so it's really interesting. I mean, I just know that I feel better and I feel like, you know, regardless of what the biomarkers say, I know that I that I feel better and I feel like, you know, regardless of what the biomarkers say, I know that I feel better. And I'm obviously like, you know, breaking world records. I mean. You definitely have a lot of energy. So something is going well.

And what is the calorie fueling and electrolyte process when you're racing? Like do you do increment, like every 30 minutes you take X, Y, and Z, like what is that specifically? Yeah, so obviously working for 24 hours and under, like I can get by pretty much mostly on gels and water and sports drink. And I only deviate from that

when I feel like I need something different. So everybody knows the story about me taking like tacos and burritos when I've done my 24 hour races. But yeah, I mean, I can, even for my hundred mile world records, I mean, every 30 minutes I was taking a gel with water and then just sipping sports drink. And the only thing that I deviated was like 70 miles into the race, I felt like I wanted something different. And I stopped for 15 seconds and shotgunned a non-alcoholic beer. I had read that. That's so funny.

And you, you're, I mean, you're, you like your beers, but you got, you kind of got off the alcoholic beer because of how that increases iron absorption, right? Yeah. Yeah. When I started learning, you started learning about my high iron and trying to learn like, what do I need to do differently? And yeah, me and my husband are beer connoisseurs. We love our beer.

I mean, we drink, in fact, we used to home brew beer. And so, I mean, we just, we love beer. But it actually was not that difficult to get off of, you know, stop drinking our regular IPAs every night for dinner, because we ended up switching to non-alcoholic beer. And yeah, I mean, there's some really great non-alcoholic beers out there. So if anybody's wanting to get off of alcohol,

that, I mean, there's some great non-alcoholic options out there, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. And what does recovery look like? You mentioned that you're really prioritizing that these days, so what does that mean? Yeah, I've definitely seen a change in my sleep, especially with the magnesium.

I've kind of experimented with my magnesium. I think I'm taking like 700 milligrams a day by supplement, which is quite a bit. Which supplement do you use, the Calm, or what is the one specifically you use? Yeah, so there's like two different magnesium ones I use. They're by Jigsaw Health. I think it's a magnesium malate and Magsoothe. And then I take the mineral drops as well.

So I'm taking something like 300 milligrams of the mineral drops. And then I'm taking like another 200 of magnesium malate. I think that's right. Yeah, something like that. And that comes out to like 700 milligrams of magnesium. And I've seen as I increase my magnesium drops that I've seen like a change in my sleep. And so that's been huge. Like I feel like I'm recovering so much better since I've gotten my sleep. I was averaging like seven hours at night

and now I'm like up to eight hours and then taking a two hour nap during the day. So- Wow, that's huge. Do you take the magnesium at night or it doesn't matter when you take it during the day? Yeah, so I usually take the magnesium malate for breakfast and lunch and then take the MagSoothe at nighttime.

And then the mineral drops, I take it in my water and my coffee, like throughout the day. So I think I'm just pretty much taking it all day. And then also when I go do races, I'm taking mineral drops during the races as well. When you did inside tracker, was your magnesium levels low or no?

Yeah, so trying to get my magnesium up has been really challenging because it was really low on inside tracker, but it has gone up. And I know like just based on how I feel and how I'm sleeping, like, and I feel a difference in my muscles when I run and that, you know, whatever, even if the biomarkers aren't necessarily like up

to where they should be, I just know that the way I feel is so much better, so. Right, so nine hours of sleep a night plus two hour nap. Yeah. Are you wearing a sleep tracker? Do you do like Oura Ring or the Whoop or anything like that? Yeah, I've kind of, so I have Koro's, the Koro's watch and I track like my deep sleep.

And I mean, I'm getting like two to two and a half hours of deep sleep at night. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, really good sleep. And I mean, it's incredible. And it's really interesting to see like after races and my sleep might be off for like a week or so. But then I go back into like this really deep sleep

and I'm just like super like charged and feeling good, so. How long does it take you to bounce back from these races? Yeah, it's been incredible. Like I feel like since I've changed my diet, like I've almost like rolled the clock back 10 years that, I mean, I used to run marathons back to back and I could do them like a week apart or two weeks apart. And now I'm like recovering from ultras

like with the same recovery powers. And I mean, I just did like a track ultra ran a couple of weeks ago and then came back and did a 40 miler and broke the course records there. But yeah, I mean, whatever I'm doing, I really think like just the recovery, the sleep aspect has made a huge difference. Oh, I forgot to mention, I'm also taking Epsom salt baths. And so that was something that I've just been doing the past couple of weeks that my dietician recommended. And I did that after my past two races and it's like super charging me.

So that's like mineral absorption through the skin. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. And do you do like the Norma Tech boots? Yeah. Do you use those too? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I have the Normatec boots. Yeah, do you use those too? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I have the Rapid Reboot recovery boots. And I've had those for over five years.

And the first time I knew that they made a difference was we had traveled to New Zealand with them and to go run the Terawara Ultra Marathon. And it was the first time after a race, I did not have ankle swelling after the race. And so I was kind of like hooked on the recovery boots after that. Right, right.

How does it work being married to your coach? I think it's okay. I think it's okay. I think it's okay. I mean- Connor's giving a thumbs up. You know, he's a thumbs down now. Yeah. I mean, it has to be like, it has to be challenging at times, right?

Like there's no separation between work and home. I mean, running is your life for both of you guys. Obviously you're both very invested in each other's success and happiness, but it's gotta be challenging also to not have like somebody outside of the home where you keep it a little bit separate. But I don't know, maybe you've never,

you've never really known anything different, right? You guys have been together for a really long time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm a different bird. I'm somebody that'll go run 20 miles at midnight. And if I had another coach, they would understand me. They would understand my psyche. I mean, I'm a different bird. I like to run late at night and I really don't set any limits on the day and when I run. And I mean, if I could,

I would run all day. I would run all day. I'd run twice a day. So Connor kind of understands my psyche and he's with me every day. He knows what my energy, my mood is like. And, you know, I think about like 10 years ago when I was, I was getting ready to go run a marathon up in Canada and I was crawling to the bathroom, like on the floor and I had torn my plantar fascia and like in my mind, it wasn't that bad. And here I am crawling on the floor and Connor's like, do you think you should go run a marathon? And yeah, I mean, I like, he's the only one that really understands my psyche

and he knows to like pull back the reins on me. Like when I'm like, I'm obviously exhausted or injured or complaining. I'm somebody that doesn't really complain about body issues. And so if I do complain about something, that's like a red flag to him. He knows it's bad, yeah.

Yeah. And how much of it is your intuition versus a prescription like, okay, this week, these are the workouts we're doing or today we're doing this. And you're like, yeah, but I just wanna go run a marathon at midnight or whatever it is. What is the push pull?

How locked in is it? Or does it just change and it's very much like day to day? Like, okay, here's what I think you should do today. Or you look a little tired today, maybe let's back off. And when Connor says, this is what you need to do, is that what you end up doing? Or do you like say, yeah, but I feel like doing this. Like what does that tension or relationship or communication look like? Yeah. So when he first started coaching me, like 15, was it 2004, 18 years ago or so, he used to just tell me what to do. And I just did it without even thinking about what I was doing.

And so about 2009, he started like kind of letting me have feedback on what I felt like doing. And so that was when the magic started to come out. I felt like when I started to tune in with like, what do I feel like doing? What does my body and my mind feel like doing? Like that was that was like what elevated me to a whole other level. And so I think we kind of have that day to day dynamic that we kind of assess like how I'm feeling what the weather's like. And you know, sometimes I have like other commitments for the day. And like, maybe I had a workout planned. And

you know, just based on like, kind of all those factors, you know, I might had a workout planned and you know just based on like kind of all those factors you know I might move a workout to a different day or like alter the workout and so I feel like the only thing that's really changed maybe as I've gotten older is I'm kind of more in tune with sometimes I don't do a hard workout like maybe I'll only do one hard workout a week

like I'm kind of working more with my body and rather than being strict on like having two hard workouts a week sometimes I only do one hard workout a week. Like I'm kind of working more with my body and rather than being strict on like having two hard workouts a week, sometimes I only do one workout a week if I'm feeling more tired. So I feel like I'm kind of more in tune with my body and not feeling like I have to push it all the time. That I just really want to feel good.

I want to be healthy. I want to, you know, toe the line for race, like feeling like really energized and really good, so. And you mentioned spreadsheets. So are you still keeping spreadsheets? And what can be found on those spreadsheets? Like what are you tracking specifically that you're interested in watching?

Yeah, and well, I keep Strava. So most of my training is like kept on Strava, but for the spreadsheets, I just keep track of my mileage and any sort of injuries or problems I've had through the year. And so I, it's not too much detail on the spreadsheets. I keep it pretty minimal, but it's, it's incredible to look at because I mean, I'm going back, you know, to the seventh grade and I've kept all these like details of like body issues. And yeah, I mean, just it's this whole evolution of my running career.

But yeah, I mean, thank goodness for Strava. Do you use Training Peaks or any other kind of database management or you just use Strava? Yeah, I mean, I've got my Coros watch, which keeps a lot of stats and sleep and those sorts of things as well. So I kind of look at what Chorus is tracking

along with Strava. But yeah, I mean, it's pretty incredible. Like there's so much data that is out there now and I don't even know how to digest all of it. But at the same time, I am a bit of a data geek. Yeah, you're the math person. Yeah. Let's talk about the mindset side of things.

Obviously, when you're going 100 miles or 24 hours, everybody wants to know, what are you thinking the whole time? Or when you feel like quitting, what do you tell yourself? Like, how does all of that work for you? Yeah, gosh, I mean, there's a lot of time to think when you're out there. I'm somebody that, like I said,

I trained for 75% of effort for a hundred miles. I, for 24 hours, I'm training for 65 to 70% effort, which is like an easy run pace. So I'm really just channeling my training and like how I felt in my training and running at 75%, running at 65%. And I really just focus on that and that feeling and that effort. And, and, and obviously I'm somebody, I'm somebody that like is able to tune out pain and to tune out the fatigue that I'm feeling, but I'm also able to tune into the things when I need to need to tune in, you know, keeping track of like, how did my feet feel? Um, you know, how's my gut feel? Like, do I need to change anything with my energy?

And so I'm somebody that kind of like, I feel like I'm out there just kind of like meditating a bit, but I'm able to tune in when I need to tune in and make changes when I need to make changes, so. Are there any mantras or things that you tell yourself when it is getting really painful and you're in that pain cave dark place? Yeah, oh, definitely.

I mean, one of the funny things when I was running my 100 mile world record and I mean, the sun is like baking on us. I felt like it was like being like an ant with a magnifying glass on us and sitting in this bowl and probably just after 50 miles, I was telling myself to suck it up, buttercup. Pretty straightforward. Yeah. Suck it up, buttercup. I mean, that's one of my favorite. I'm kind of somebody that's like

a tough love type of person. And yeah, I mean, I'm out there and there's certain things like, I have this mentality that I'm an animal out there and I'm chasing prey or I'm being chased by an animal. Which animal are you? Which animal? The honey badger? Like what is it? What specific animal are you?

I saw, yeah, I saw your interview with Harvey. I think he said he was channeling the honey badger. I mean, I think I'm a lion. I think I'm a lion, especially with my hair. You always wear your hair down, don't you? Yeah, I do. I do. And I feel like,

I literally feel like I have a cape on my head when I run. Like it feels like I'm flying out there and like my hair just like kind of stimulates me in such a way that I feel like free and liberated. But I feel like I'm an animal out there, like chasing prey. And I mean, that's like the mindset that I have, even like racing Harvey here last weekend, I felt like I was being chased by an animal

and I better like, I better survive, like, yeah. Well, I have this theory. I mean, when I look at you and I'm experiencing you, you're clearly a very happy person, a very joyful person. And again, it's impossible to not compare you to Courtney's disposition, also a very happy, joyful person. And even like Harvey, Harvey's like,

he's like overflowing with like gratitude. And I think it's curious that some of the most successful ultra runners in the world have this disposition. And I have to think that there's something to that. Like, what is the relationship? Like if you're a really happy, joyful person, on some level, what you're doing

is in pursuit of that joy, right? So when it gets really hard, like you have that, right? And that's very, that is in contrast to this idea that I think is out there that ultra running is hard and you gotta be tough. And it's sort of this alpha Navy seal attitude of like tackling obstacles and all of that, because it's like you're holding it a little bit lighter.

Like, oh, this is fun. And like, let's remember that this is fun when it's like you're holding it a little bit lighter, right? Like, oh, this is fun. And like, let's remember that this is fun, you know, when it's really dark. And I think there's a real strength there. It would be interesting to like study all the elite ultra runners from that perspective of joy, happiness, gratitude, because I see it everywhere I look.

Yeah, I think I got it from my parents. I've seen my parents have their own health issues and struggles that they go through. I think about my mom, she had like shoulder surgery and she had to go through PT for many months. And I've never seen my mom, like, I mean, my mom is like this, you know, Betty Crocker type that, you know, like cooks and, you know, she's at home.

And she's like, you know, she cooks and, you know, she's, she's at home and she's like, you know, she goes hardcore. She goes hardcore with her PT and she's so positive. And she, you know, she was motivated. She's positive. And I think I got that from my parents. I mean, growing up playing sports and my parents were just such positive people, like just super motivating and like believed in me. And I think like I got it from my parents. Like, yeah. And you guys lost your home, right?

Growing up to a tornado? We did, we did. Yeah, that happened my junior year of high school. And it actually happened a couple of days after prom. And so I'd had my prom dress hanging on my bathroom door. And then the tornado happened on a Monday. And I remember I'd gone to lunch with my friends that day and it was this perfect sunny day. And then, yeah, the tornado came and my dad, so my mom was down in Norman taking care of my grandpa at the time. And so my dad, I'd gotten out of the shower and my dad was like, hey, there's a tornado coming.

And we get tornadoes all the time in Oklahoma. You don't think really anything of it. You're just like, okay, I got to go take shelter. There's a tornado coming. So I just grabbed my book bag and went with my dad. And we drove down to Norman to be with my dad, my mom and my grandpa and I'm watching the TV and like, here's this tornado coming through Oklahoma city and, you know, telling us the streets that it's going through. And, um, I mean, we're like, oh my gosh,

that's where we live. Um, and so, yeah, it just ripped like right through where my high school was the neighborhood to the South. It lived, it ripped like right through where my high school was, the neighborhood to the south. It lived, it ripped like right where we lived, which is right across the street from the high school. But yeah, it was pretty traumatizing at the time. And yeah, I mean- So your whole house was gone. Yeah, so we actually, so what had happened was

we lived down in Duncan, Oklahoma, and we had just moved up to the city like a couple months before because my dad had retired. And we were trying to decide like where to live in South Oklahoma City. And so we were either gonna live like across the street from the high school

or we were gonna live in another neighborhood. Both places got hit by the tornado. And so we ended up, we had an apartment at the time because my parents were trying to sell their house. And so the tornado. And so, um, so we ended up, uh, we had an apartment at the time cause my parents were trying to sell their house. And so the tornado hit the apartment where we were staying at. And, um, and so, I mean, it just, there were like four people where we lived in that vicinity that died. Um, and so, I mean, I'm, I feel so blessed that my dad had loaded me up in the car to go down to Norman. And, you know,

when we got, when we were able to get back up there and, you know, I mean, it's just concrete slabs up there. And so it was really shocking. I mean, at the time you're thinking, oh my gosh, like, you know, I can't believe this happened. But at the same time, like I felt so grateful for my life and, you know, what my dad had done, you know, to load us up. And yeah, I mean, I just felt like this appreciation for like, I'm alive, like I can still run. I still have my running talent.

And it kind of like made me like become more spiritual with myself. And I felt like I started running long on Sunday as a way to like celebrate my life and like my running talent. And yeah, and that really like kind of, it kind of put me back in touch with myself and like being appreciative of my life.

So that gratitude thing. Yeah. And now you're back there. Yeah. Like you've been, you've kind of been nomadic, right? You lived in, you were in Colorado, you were in Tucson. Now you're back in Oklahoma City. Back in Oklahoma, love it.

On the tornado watch. Has there been any since you've been back? It's pretty recent, right? Yeah. You moved back there pretty recently. Yeah, so we just moved back here a couple months ago and we have a storm shelter in our house. So I've joked, I've thought about like-

This is new for Connor, right? Like not used to like tornadoes, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I haven't even gotten down in there yet to see what the storm shelter's like, but we have one in our garage. So yeah, you got to get underground if a tornado is coming because it's, yeah, just completely flat in your house.

But yeah, I mean, I'm from Oklahoma. I'm a native Oklahoma and my parents live there. My two sisters live there. And I just, I feel like I'm reconnecting like with my roots as a runner and you know, where I'm from, so. Yeah, yeah. But it's pretty flat there, right?

You're not getting a lot of hill work for Western States. Yeah, so the way that I was able to train and to win the comrades marathon was I went down to Mount Scott, which is like our only like mountain in Oklahoma, like 1500 feet high or something. Yeah. I think it goes up to like 2000 feet or something like that. It's like three, just under three miles to go up to about 2000 feet. Um, it's a pretty steep grade. Um, like I think it goes maybe from like 8% up to 20% or so, but yeah, that's basically how I trained to win the comrades uphill course was, um, driving down to Mount Scott and doing repeats up and down the mountain. Um, and then I would do

short repeats at the bottom as well. And so that was how I trained. That was how I hill trained for comrades. And there's also trails down there to get on. I really liked the trails, so. And now is that what you're doing for Western States or what's the prep like? Like this is the big goal.

Yeah. It's coming up. When is it? In July? Yeah, the end of June. End of June, okay. Yeah. So where are we at and what are you focused on? Like this is the thing, right? Like you've got all these world records,

but like it's all about Western States. Yeah, now I'm trying to bring it to the trials. So super fun. I mean, I'm gonna do the Western States training camp coming up here in a couple of weeks, which is something I haven't done before. And I mean, I've run, I ran Western States last year. And so I've kind of got like the mental picture of what it's like. And, you know, the different, there's, it's, you know, you kind of have to think of it in segments because there's so many different parts and kind of how you break it down.

because there's so many different parts and kind of how you break it down. And I feel like since I've run the whole course, I can like mentally process that better and how to prepare for it. But yeah, I'm planning to go out to the training camp and get on the course more and just kind of get dialed in with that flow and that connection of my body with the course. But yeah, I mean, you kind of just tried and put it all together on race day and hope that you've like dialed in all the different components.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You seem really clear on your strengths. What do you think are your weaknesses or the areas that really need a little bit more focus? Yeah, well, definitely one of the things was my body breaking down and like I've, I've had to drop from races because I had hamstring issues or just my body breaking down. And so, um, I've spent, you know, the past year really like getting in the gym and really working

on my full body strength so that I'm not breaking down. And I felt like even last year when I ran Western States, even though I had this iron issue, my body wasn't breaking down. And I felt like even last year when I ran Western States, even though I had this iron issue, my body wasn't breaking down. Like I was physically strong because I'd been working more in the gym. And so I felt like that was the first piece of the puzzle was to get my body physically stronger so I'm not breaking down the race.

And then the whole iron issue was the other thing that I needed to work on. I'm somebody that has the opposite problem than most people. Like I have to, I'm having to give my blood away rather than trying to build it up. So, yeah, I mean, I've really worked on that. Just trying to get my biomarkers more balanced again. So. Yeah, but I feel like

you're on top of that, right? It's like, okay, that was a weakness. I've dealt with that. What's the next weakness that I need to look at? Yeah, yeah. You're like, I'm good, I'm on top of that, right? It's like, okay, that was a weakness. I've dealt with that. What's the next weakness that I need to look at? Yeah, yeah. You're like, I'm good, I'm strong. I'm like ready to go. I feel pretty good.

Yeah, I mean, right now, like, cause I've been so focused on road stuff and track running, like I'm trying to get, I'm trying to translate it to the trails right now and kind of get my flow dialed in to be on trails. And I mean, I feel great when I've, the past couple of weeks that I've gotten on trails, I'm like, man, I feel great. Like I feel like, I feel like, damn, like flying like uphill and downhill. And I feel like, I feel so much more comfortable with my

technical skills than I did, you know, a year, a couple of years ago. Um, and yeah, obviously like, you know, for me to take on like a course like UTMB is going to be like, you know, whole other elements, but I feel like I'm somebody that can adapt, you know, I can get stronger, I can, you know, improve. And I mean, it's kind of like learning how to ride a bike and, you know, any, any athlete, you know, is that's trying to learn how to do something new. Like if you do it over and over and over again, eventually you're gonna get it right. And I'm optimistic, I'm optimistic that if I keep practicing and I keep working at it,

like I'm finally gonna get things right, so. And how do you like to work with pacers? Do you want somebody with you as much as possible or you want a bump and run, just give me the nutrition and I'm fine. Or like, how do you think about that? Yeah, I'm not really, I don't think I want a pacer. I actually, like a year and a half ago, it was interesting.

I ended up running a road 100K and had a pacer and that was kind of my first time to have a pacer. And I feel like I'm somebody that likes to get into my own head that I don't like to be distracted. I don't like to have a pacer. And I feel like I'm somebody that likes to get into my own head, that I don't like to be distracted. I don't like to have a whole lot of people or like outside like influence. I really need to be in my own head space when I race. And I mean, that's kind of the, that's kind of what I'm good at, like getting in my own head when I race and really like elevating myself. And so I'm, I'm actually not going to have pacers. Likeers. Like I feel pretty confident enough in my own self

that I can get in my own head space and like to elevate myself like later in the race. Yeah, yeah. Talk a little bit about the longer term goals. I mean, Western States is a short term goal. Like what's further down the horizon in terms of things that you'd like to be able to accomplish?

Yeah, so obviously I wanna become more of a trail runner and I'm really motivated. I've been setting world records for many years now. And I mean, there's still some more world records like in the multi-day stuff that I wanna get. And I see myself evolving more into trail running and mountain running. And I wanna become the first athlete to win, uh, comrades Western States UTMB, uh, because that's the triple crown of ultra

running. And so, uh, winning comrades is the, obviously the hardest one because it's the most competitive race to win. And there's only been three Americans that have done it. So I feel like, you know, I won, I won like the pinnacle, you know, as far as comrades, but, uh, but yeah, now I've got to bring it to Western States and UTMB and, um, yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun trying to, trying to, you know, achieve that. So, um, but yeah, I mean, I, I feel like there's no limits on what I can do. Like if I set a goal for something, like I'm somebody that doesn't really limit myself on like, I just go after it. I just, you know, bite down and go after that goal. So I feel like you would really excel at

Badwater. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Um, I was actually signed up to do Badwater two years ago and it got canceled. Um, and so, yeah, I've been staying with my friend Shannon who's done it like eight times and, um, I mean, she's all raving who's done it like eight times. And I mean, she's all raving to me about it. And in fact, she actually did the double bad water. She ran bad water and then turned around and ran back to the start. So we should just shout her out, like Shannon for our griefer.

She's a legend. She lives in the area. If you run trails around here, you're inevitably gonna bump into her. She's amazing. And yeah, was she the first to do the double? Or I can't remember. If you run trails around here, you're inevitably gonna bump into her. She's amazing. Yeah. And yeah, was she the first to do the double? Or I can't remember.

It was a while ago when she did it, but it's like unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, she was talking about how tired she was when she finished and she turned around and ran it all the way back. I know. I mean, that's so mental. Like, it's incredible.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What about a transcontinental run? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I've got a long list of things I wanna do. I mean, we're watching Michael Wardian right now do a transcon. And I mean, that stuff just totally blows my mind.

Like I feel like I'm somebody that, I mean, I find joy in running period and to run across America, I would just absolutely love it. I mean, it would be something completely new because you would see the entire country by foot. And I think I would just love that. I think I would just be taking it in every day, being in a new place and knowing where my legs are taking me. What's the women's record for that? Yeah, I don't really know what that is.

I think Pete Kostelnik holds a men's record and I've run a little bit further than him for 24 hours. So I think I would be trying to go for his record. That would be unbelievable if you broke the world record for men and women doing that. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

And then there's all these FKTs, right? Like you could, I mean, there's no limit. It's just a question of like where you wanna place your attention. And I think you even mentioned the 3,100 in Queens, which is a wild one. That, I mean, that is just so, that blows my mind. I mean, 3,100 miles, like around,

like I think it's like a half mile block. I mean, how do you stay motivated? How do you find joy, you know, when it's boring? And I think I'm somebody that like, I mean, I like to use the energy around me when I'm in races and, um, you kind of have to, you have to break it down. Like, how do you eat an elephant? You eat an elephant one bite at a time. And so, um, I've learned like when I run races, like I need to, I need to, you know, track the mileage and I need to break down the, how, how am I going to eat the elephant? And so, I mean,

that's something I think about in races, like, you know, whether I'm going 100 miles, 24 hours, 3,100 miles, like how do you break down eating the elephant? Well, you're no stranger to running around in circles. So you're running around in a circle. The interesting thing with that one is the course closes at night. So you go to bed and it becomes like a job for the summer. You just wake up and between eight and five

or whatever eight and eight or whatever the hours are, you just go around the loop and try to get as many miles as you can. There's a documentary about it that my friend Sanjay Rawal made. I don't know if you've seen it. And it's so interesting, the people that excel in that race are not the people,

like they don't look like runners. They're like average people with, you know, all different kinds of jobs. And it really shows you like, oh, this is about mental fortitude. This is about like something more than athletic capacity. This is about like a connection to something beyond, like those are the people that seem to, you know, excel.

Yeah, yeah. And I feel that, I feel a spiritual connection. When I go for world records, I feel like I'm tapping into something really special inside of me. And I reach a point where I like transcend and like, it's almost like my head starts to float off of my body.

And I think when you do something like that, you really have to tap into that spiritual energy inside of you to keep going and to complete it. Cause it's just something that just like, you know, it's just like beyond like what you think is possible. Tell me more about that. Yeah, I feel like I've always had this ability

to tap into this extra energy inside of me. And I remember when I set my 50 mile world best back in 2015, I think I have like, maybe it's like 12 miles to go. And I joke that it was like the hand of God came over me. And I literally felt like my head started to float on my body and I'm just like a machine those last 12 miles. And it was kind of one of those points where I was either gonna get the record or not get the record. And I felt like I just found some sort of like spiritual connection where my body just became a machine. And it was kind of like my head was floating.

And I felt that like many more times when I've gone for world records, I feel like even I more times when I've gone for world records, I feel like even, um, I think about when I did my 12 hour world record, I started to feel that I feel like I, I kind of just went into this like machine mode and, and yeah, I mean, it was like, it's, it's incredible. I just, I feel it. I feel this energy that I can tap into when I go for these amazing things. So Like this advanced flow state where you become this channel for something else. Yeah, yeah, I feel it.

Like, it's incredible. Like even racing Harvey, I mean, it was like, I just transcended like this last couple of miles and I don't know how to describe it. Like I just, it's like, I almost like detach a bit from my body and from the pain I'm feeling and I just become this machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, I almost like detach a bit from my body and from the pain I'm feeling. And I just become this machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's wild. Well, that's why you have to do the 3100. It's this self transcendent run. That's what it's called, right? Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that's gonna be like my finale as a runner. How do you think about yourself as a role model? Obviously you're inspiring to everybody,

but particularly to women, women athletes, young girls, I'm sure you have opportunities to speak with younger people. Like, how do you think about how you carry yourself and what that means for the next generation of young athletes? Yeah, well, when I'm out there and I'm going, I'm about to do something,

I mean, I think about that, not only the people that inspire me to do a race, I feel like every race that I do, I have somebody that is inspiring me and that I think about, like especially later in the race, but I also know that people are watching me and that I'm bringing inspiration to other people.

And I feel that. I feel that during the race. I feel like, you know, I'm doing this for the world. I'm doing this to, you know, elevate the sport, to raise the bar in what women think is possible. And, like, it's such a powerful thing when you're out there. I feel like it's not just me trying to reach a personal goal. I'm doing this for the sport. I'm creating history.

And it just like totally like elevates me like late in the race, just thinking about that. And now being 40, you're not just breaking barriers in distance and time, you're breaking barriers in age. Like you haven't even begun to, you know, tap into what you're capable of. I'm sure you've got a whole slew of world records coming,

but it's really cool because it creates this conversation around what we're capable of and what our limits are as we age. And as you redefine it, you're in equal parts inspiring young people as you are to like the older people who are trying to, you know, rethink what they're capable of as we get older. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think about when I reached my mid thirties, I thought it was on some sort of like downhill slope or something. And I mean, probably a lot of like marathoners and, you know, ultra athletes think that. They think that, oh, you know, it's all downhill from here. But I feel like I'm reaching my prime right now. And I mean, it's incredible because here I've been a I've been a runner for 27 years and I'm still getting better, you know, age 40. And, you know, I feel like I'm kind of dialing in more like I talked about my diet and my recovery.

about my diet and my recovery, I'm kind of dialing in more on those factors that maybe I just kind of let them slide in the past and wasn't really as dialed in on them. So I'm kind of showing like, if I'm using like more of my brain and having more wisdom and with my training and my recovery, my diet, all these things and it's like working. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's also cool that we're in a time where, somebody who is of your age can live as a professional athlete. Like you have sponsors and you can make a living and do your thing. And I think that's amazing. Like that wouldn't have been possible, maybe even like 10 years ago.

Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, definitely. I mean, I've been the sport for seven years. And I've seen this whole evolution with sponsorships. And even when I when I first got into the sport, and it was it was actually hard to get sponsorships, even being a woman. And I felt like I saw like, more younger men getting sponsorship opportunities. And I like here I was, I had done a lot in like, just my first year as an ultra runner. And I like here I was, I had done a lot in like just my first year

as an ultra runner. And I felt like that there was kind of more of this focus on men. And it's kind of shifted now that there's so many amazing women doing things and sponsors have realized like, oh, you know, like we've got these amazing women that, you know, we can back.

And I feel like there's kind of been this shift of supporting more women and more women, more athletes of, you know, all different ages as well. I mean, I'm, you know, just turned 40 and I'm a professional athlete. And, and I mean, I had a profession before I was a professional athlete that, and, you know, I thought I would be working in research for the rest of my life. I couldn't have imagined that I'm a professional athlete at age 40. This is just wild. Right, like were you working in a lab in like Ann Arbor, like studying bone density or something? Yeah, yeah.

I worked at the University of Oklahoma Health Science Center, but I also worked at Michigan for a period back in 2016. And so, I mean, I had a dedicated career, like I was not expecting to become this ultra runner, this professional athlete, you know, at this age. And, um, I, I had to go through a transition, um, trying to transition from my profession, my day job, uh, to become a professional athlete. I mean, it was like, oh my gosh, what do I do with this? But yeah, once I, once I had my car accident back in 2019 and I mean, I was driving to work that day and I felt

like it was almost like this sign from above telling me, you know, this is where it stops. Like, you know, go, go full time with your, with your running. And I mean, I'm grateful. I feel, I feel like I'm doing what I'm born to do as a runner and it's empowering to be doing this. And I'm grateful for that. I wanna be the best that I can be and to do everything right, so. Yeah, and on a practical level,

so you have your sponsors and then do you guys also coach other people or like how does it work so that all the bills get paid and you can travel? Because it's expensive to travel around and go to all these races and do all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, well, fortunately, I've got a lot of support from Hoka.

So Hoka is my main sponsor and I've got a travel budget with them, but yeah, we also coach on the side, which keeps my husband busy. But yeah, I mean, we coach together and that's what I'm doing a which keeps my husband busy. Um, but yeah, I mean, we coach together and, um, you know, that's what I'm doing a lot in my free time. You know, we're trying to work with our athletes and, uh, yeah, just communication with athletes and that sort of thing. Um, so yeah, I mean, we,

we started our, our, um, coaching business, you know, back when I was still working full-time and research and, um, and I mean, that, that was really helpful, you know, trying to transition into becoming a full-time athlete along with, you know, having our own business was really beneficial. And, but I feel it's so cool for me to be able to give back my knowledge and my wisdom to the running community and to see other athletes like succeed. And we just coached the guy that, um, Joe McConaughey that just won the Cocodona 250. I mean, he just crushed it here last week. And I mean, it's really cool to be able to use, you know, my experience and my wisdom to give back to other athletes and see somebody like him, you know, just crush it. Right, right, right. On that note, what do you see like a lot of people doing wrong

or what are common mistakes that the amateur athlete makes when they're participating in these longer races? Yeah, I mean, I would say as far as mistakes that athletes make, I would say too many athletes run their easy days too fast. And so we really have to pull back the reins on the athletes that we coach

and that people don't know how to run easy. They don't know how to run relaxed. Well, Strava doesn't help with that. That's true. Because every time you're out there, you're like, what's this gonna look like on Strava? I don't wanna be judged for running slow. Like, I don't think it's good for that.

Yeah, I think it turns people into workout champs. I mean, I look at Strava sometimes and I'm like, oh my gosh, like it's mind boggling some of the workouts that people are doing and their easy days are hard. Like every day is like hard. They don't have any concept of pulling back the reins and running easy on their easy days, hard on their hard days. It seems like every day is hard. So yeah, I mean, with the athletes that we coach, you know, we're really trying to get them to pull back their pace on the easy runs. But then the other thing is we don't do back-to-back long runs.

We don't believe in, we think it's too much stress. And so when we start coaching athletes and they're like, you know, where's our 40-mile training run? That's a standard thing in ultra prep, like doing a long run on tired legs. Yeah. So the back-to-back is a big part of that. Yeah, so even coaching Joe for Cocodona, he thought he needed to be doing a lot of vert,

he needed to be doing a lot of long runs, and we just really pulled back the reins with his training. He's the type of guy that he ran in college, so he has a lot of like natural leg speed. And so we worked more with his natural physiology, and he thrived on that. Like, and he went into Cocodona and he felt like he was pretty strong, like most of the race. And I think a lot of it is just that he's not overtrained. He went into the race, like pretty fresh. Um, he had done, um, he had done a hundred K like a couple of weeks before as a race as like his last like long run.

But then, you know, we had him come back and do a speed session a couple of days after that and he just crushed it. So we kind of worked more with his natural physiology rather than, you know, doing all these like back-to-back long runs and extreme amounts of verge. Right, but I also find myself thinking as somebody who doesn't have a background in running,

I have a background in swimming and other things, but you having this elite background, and Joe is his name? Yeah, Joe. Yeah, having a background as a really good runner makes it make more sense, like, okay, you don't need to do your long runs longer than 22, because you're tapping into two decades

or a decade plus of that type of background, but if you're an amateur runner, who's kind of new to all of this and doesn't have that, I think on a confidence level, they need to do a longer run just to convince themselves like it's possible. But maybe there's something to like those back-to-back long hard runs that fills the gap

because they didn't have that experience as a younger person. Yeah, I kind of feel like doing races, you know, gives people the confidence and the way to prepare for whatever sort of like a goal race. Even I do that. I mean, I like to, when I'm going for,

you know, training for a big race, like a world championship, I like to do like a marathon or a 50K a couple of weeks out. And, you know championship, I like to do like a marathon or a 50 K a couple weeks out. Um, you know, it's like my last like long run, you know, for that big race. And I mean, that's, that's kind of the mindset that we have coaching the athletes that we, you know, try to do like, you know, something big, like a couple of weeks before they're like a race. And, um, you know, that kind of like helps them to practice their nutrition and spending more time on their feet.

But yeah, I feel like doing all these like back-to-back long runs, I feel like it's too much stress. And I mean, I have a master's degree in exercise and sports science. And I mean, I just can't really justify from a science standpoint, like there's just too much stress like from doing so many long runs. I feel like it beats you down. And when I've tried that, when I've tried to like do like 30 mile plus training runs, I mean, I feel like I get tired.

I'm like, I don't feel like this is necessary. And so, yeah, when I like pulled back the reins, like I feel like, you know, if you pull back the reins and you know, you have a, yeah, finding that perfect formula to have like a race, like a couple of weeks out that that kind of gets you dialed in and you know, you have a, yeah, finding that perfect formula to have like a race, like a couple of weeks out, that that kind of gets you dialed in and then just, you know, taper and recover for the race, a big race.

Yeah, that's really interesting. The final thing I wanted to ask you about has to do with diversity in ultra running. I mean, obviously it's a very kind of like white sport, you know, I think it is really cool that there's so much enthusiasm and excitement around women in ultra running. And that's where it's most exciting, I think, because of people like you who are really pushing boundaries

and advancing the conversation of what's possible. But how can we make it a little bit more inclusive? I know this is something that you care about and elaborate on that. Yeah, well, it's really interesting when I go to Comrades and that Comrades is probably the most diverse race in the world as far as ultra running. And yeah, and then you look at trail running

and things and tend to be a little less diverse. And I think one thing that Comrades has going for it is they have a very small entry fee. And I think one thing that Comrades has going for it is they have a very small entry fee. I don't know what the conversion is for their amount to enter the race, but they have a different entry fee for international versus within South Africa. And so I think of money, the cost of getting into a race, like that's one barrier for sure. And I feel like, you know, maybe trail running needs to have some sort of subsidized like entry fees or something to, you know, to allow like more people to afford it.

But yeah, I think that Comrades is kind of like brings in like a global, like, I don't know, it just seems like they have like this, like, like it's kind of like the world coming together type of thing. Yeah. But also there's such a steep tradition there around it. Like everybody there knows about it and everybody, like it was the whole community just kind of does it, whether they're trained to do it or not. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe, you know, there needs to be more collaboration between like what, what comrades is doing right and trying to bring that more to trail running. Um, but yeah, just try to, you know, think about what, what are

the barriers to allowing, you know, more diverse, you know, community. Um, you know, I, I follow like the black trail runners. Um, I think they're based in the UK and, um, you know, I follow like the black trail runners. I think they're based in the UK and, you know, just trying to create a community to get more diversity into the sport. And there's also like the native American trail runners. And I think I actually donated towards their cause. You donated money to that, your prize money towards that, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like this, like I need to give back more. Like, I feel like, you know, even if I'm getting prize money or, you know, what are the ways that I can give back to the sport? You know, do I donate part of my prize money? Like, you know, get more active with, you know, trying to promote these causes and, you know, black trail runners and Native American trail runners. And yeah, I mean, I feel like that there's ways that, you know, we need to, we need to acknowledge, you know, that, that, Hey, you know, we're a pretty welcoming community and,

you know, anybody can do our sport. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's, it's pretty cool, you know, that there's a greater awareness of that too. So, um, all right, well, before I let you go, I think it would be good to kind of round this out with just some parting words for somebody who's been listening to this or watching it and is feeling inspired and thinking, maybe I can do one of those. Like, that's cool. Like how does somebody begin this process

of tackling a big challenge or how do you inspire or motivate somebody to get off the couch and start thinking about raising their ceiling on what they're capable of. Yeah, well, I mean, I think back to when I was a marathoner and I mean, even when I did the half marathon, I remember when I did the half marathon thinking it felt like a marathon.

And it seems like every time I've gone up in distance, I'm like, you know, I spent many years doing marathons and then I kind of wondered what's next? Like what's next? What's next? What can I do next? Yeah, I mean, going into ultra running, it was kind of like deep diving into a whole other sport. And fortunately, I did it. Fortunately, I had the courage to do it.

But now, being able to give back to the sport as a coach. And that's what I recommend to athletes. I mean, I'm willing to help athletes, you know, to make that deep dive and, you know, and help them have the guidance and the confidence to do it. But, but yeah, I mean, it's obviously it's, I feel like there's kind of this step up and, you know, sometimes there's even ultra runners who have stepped down in distance. Um, I think about like Jim Walmsley stepped down and did the marathon, which is really cool. So yeah, I mean, I feel like it takes courage to do that, but obviously, you know, being a coach, I wanna get back and, you know, help athletes, you know,

to make that jump, you know, whether to step up or step down in distance, so. Well, you're an inspiration, and I think there's gonna be a lot of new fans coming your way. Everybody's excited to see what you do at Western States and after that. So I appreciate you coming here today

and sharing with me. Well, thank you. Thank you for the conversation. Your energy is amazing. It really is infectious. And you're a beautiful person. So thank you. Thank you, appreciate it.

Keep doing your thing. I just like, it's so cool. You're just knocking these things down like bowling pins. Like nothing's in your way. Yeah, it's all in the mind and just determination and joy. I'm propelled by joy. The joy thing is big. Yeah, absolutely.

And it doesn't, it's very authentic to you. It's not like, oh, I'm trying to be joyful because if I'm joyful, then I'll be a better athlete. It's not like that, it doesn't work that way, but. I'm just a happy person. Yeah. How do you think you're so happy? Well.

Yeah, is that what you mean? Yeah, well, I was born on Christmas day and they said I came into the world smiling. So yeah, I came into the world smiling. So yeah, I came into the world smiling. And you've always been this way. Yeah, my mom said I was just a happy baby. And yeah, I like to eat.

Okay. I like to run. I like to eat. I mean, I just, yeah. And now you get to do those things. Yeah. Professionally. Professionally. Yeah, cool.

We'll come back and talk to me again after you break a bunch more world records and we'll get Connor on with you next time together and we can like get into the spreadsheets. There you go. Cool. Cool. If anybody wants to learn more about you,

should they just go to your website, Camille Herron, or you're on all the socials and all of that, you share tons of stuff. I love the little video of you face planning on the trail. Oh. That's like pinned on your Twitter. Oh my gosh, that was like, it was a drone. I had no idea there was a drone that captured me

like face planning on the trail. And I got back up and it was like bloody and everything and just kept going to the finish, so. Right, so if you wanna see that, go to Camille's Twitter and your website and anywhere else. Yeah. I mean, I'm in Instagram at run Camille and I mean, I get messages all the time. I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty interactive on like all the social media platforms. I really like interacting, commenting and you know, I meet people at races.

I meet people at races and they're like, oh yeah, I follow you. And I mean, it's just, it's really cool. Like when I meet people in person, I'm like, yeah, we like, you know, exchange messages and things. So shoot her a DM and she might answer you. Yeah.

And say hi at the next race. All right. Thanks so much. Yeah. Thank you, Rich. All right. Cool. Peace.

Lance. I'll be right the next race. All right, thanks so much. Yeah, thank you Rich. All right. Cool. Peace plants. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com

where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated.

And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast

was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiette. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management.

And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.ナマステ Thank you.