The Rich Roll Podcast - Casey Neistat’s Absolute Disregard For Failure — And the Imperative to Define Your Own Path

Episode Date: April 27, 2015

This week marks the return of my friend Casey Neistat to the podcast. Where to even begin… As a filmmaker credentialed with co-creating an HBO series and laurels from prestigious outlets like Cannes, Sundance and the Independent Spirit Awards, one would expect an artist of his pedigree to be directing feature films, documentaries and television shows for mainstream media. And yet sometime around 2010, Casey opted for the road less travelled, putting the traditional filmmaker path in his rearview to blaze a different and quite surprising path more in alignment with his DIY sensibilities: YouTube. The great irony is that in embracing the most democratic of platforms as his primary artistic outlet, Casey has indeed become one of the most compelling and culturally relevant voices of his generation. From his sensational “Make It Count” (my fave) to his poignant “What Would You Do with $25,000?” to his gleeful “Snowboard NYC”, Casey has logged over 129 million YouTube views, compelling Wired Magazine to remark, “Casey Neistat’s bite-size Internet movies have so much viral potential they make influenza jealous.” Let's not even get into his continent-sized following on Snapchat (check out his ancillary Snap Stories YouTube Channel ), or the fact that he recently began posting a daily vlog so stellar, suddenly every other vlogger looks remedial.  Putting out a volume of content that would rival a major network, Casey Neistat is truly a do-it-yourself triumph — famed and fêted for unceasingly documenting his life, globe-trotting adventures and myriad curiosities with boundless perspicacity and bootstrapping panache. So what is it exactly that makes Casey's work so irresistible? Maybe it's simply because he knows how to tell insanely great personal stories. Perhaps it's his rapier-like knack for tapping the zeitgeist pulse. His fidelity to authenticity. Or his expertise when it comes to connecting emotionally with a signature style that always leaves you yearning for more. If you ask me what sets Casey apart, it's something else entirely: an absolute disregard for failure. That, and a profound work ethic. He makes it look easy, but make no mistake: Casey Neistat works way harder than you do. No, you can't have his life. But you can have your own. To echo Casey, if you are doing it like everyone else, you're doing it wrong. So stop following the heard. Define your own path. It was a treat to once again drop in on his singular Lower Manhattan studio — “one of the most compulsively organized, ridiculously customized, and mind-bogglingly gear-saturated spaces on Planet Awesome” — and I am pumped to share this conversation with one of the most interesting, creative, prolific — and in my opinion important — visual artists working today.

It's always the struggles that define you in life. Look back at your life, whether you're 13 years old or 80 years old, and it's always the hard times, the hardest times that made you who you are, not the easiest times. That's filmmaker Casey Neistat, this week on The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I am Rich Roll, fearless leader of this intrepid podcast, and we are on a mission, and that mission is to help you live and be better. So each week, I sit down for a Vulcan mind meld with the best and the brightest

across all categories of life, health, and in this case, creativity and excellence, always excellence, as a means to help you unlock and unleash the best, most authentic version of yourself on the world at large. So thanks for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for spreading the word. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter, for clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. And thank you for picking up a copy of our new book, The Plant Power Way, out in bookstores everywhere this week. So exciting. Hey, Julie. Hi, Rich. Julie's joining me for the intro. Hi, I'm Julie Pyatt. How's it going?

It's going great. My wife and mother of my children and co-author of our new book. That's right. Awesome. How are you feeling? Feeling really great, actually. By the time people listen to this, the book is going to be out. So this is like a super huge week for us. Wow, it's a good thing I practiced yoga this morning. Are you calm? I'm calm. There's a lot of activity going on right now. And I'm feeling very loved and very supported.

Yeah, there's a lot of support out there. Right now, we are at number 43 on Amazon of all books. You guys, that's amazing. Which is so crazy, right? Of all books, of all books being sold, there's only 42 other books that are like- Of all categories. Yeah, all categories. That's so crazy. Which is insane. And it's even more insane because we have not had one iota, not one shred of national media coverage. This is true.

The Today Show hasn't called. They don't want us. Good Morning America said, you know, maybe not so interested. You know, all the kind of like national magazines, all that kind of stuff. We don't have any of that. But you know what we have? We have you guys. We have a microphone. And we have you guys.

So this is really a testament to the true power of community to rally behind an idea that people want to support. And we just feel so loved by all of you guys who have risen up and shown your support for all the work that we're trying to do and what we're trying to put out to the world. So thank you so much for, uh, for rising up. Yeah. And for being, just for being a part of the community and actually, you know, being a part of affecting a change through, you know, collective, um, intention and consciousness and, you know, just will to, um, you know, shift the status quo and also just, you know, support another human being. And, uh, we, we would not be standing here without any of you.

And we are just filled with gratitude. And we do not take any percent, any just moment of any of this for granted. And so just thank you so much for coming out and for supporting us. We feel just immensely blessed. Yeah, it's really cool. I mean, this is the power of the internet, right? I mean, we're able to connect with people all over the world through the work that we're doing through this podcast and social media and to be able to, you know,

affect people in a way where they want to support what we're doing. I mean, this is really, yeah, we have a book coming out. We want it to be successful. It would be amazing if it hit the New York times bestseller list. It's definitely a goal, but, but, you know, this is more, this is much more than that. It's, it's, it's much more than us or this book. It's about a movement. You know, it's like America needs help. People are sick. We need better lifestyle options and, and, you know, pathways to access a healthier, better version of ourself. This is our little offering, you know, in that conversation. And to see people say little offering, you know, in that conversation. And to see people say, yeah, you know, we do need more of this.

Like, let's support this. And then, you know, in turn, you know, we'll support somebody else who's doing something similar. And it's just amazing. You know, it's just amazing the power of social media and the podcast and everything that we're doing that we could be sitting in this place. It's a very privileged place to be. I don't take it for granted. It comes with a great deal of responsibility, and I'm just extremely grateful.

Yeah, and also to know that what we are sharing and our transparency and our courage and maybe foolishness to be so open about our lives and about our relationship and about our family and to know that it is inspiring and it's giving people, you know, something to hold on to as they go through their own transformation. I mean, I think this week was, you know, in addition to having just the most amazing support and, you know, rallying from all of you from the plant power community. And, um, we also received some of the most deeply, you know, profoundly touching emails of people going through, you know, true life challenges, you know, serious, serious stuff,

you know, life or death and, you know, wanting to connect with us deep, you know, more deeply. And, you know, the book is, it's not just a cookbook. It is basically a window into our life. We have shared as transparently and as openly in this book as we do on the podcast. And our hope is that you feel as if we have invited you into our home and we've saved a spot for you at our family table. And so anyway, I feel mighty with all of your support. We feel mighty with all of your support. We feel mighty with all of your support. Such an exciting week. So thanks, you guys.

And on the subject of emails that we get, I thought I would read a fan email that came in. I'm thinking about making this kind of like a regular. It could be great, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a guy called Matt. I'm not going to use his last name because he sent me, you know, I don't know that he didn't say that I had permission to read it. So I'm not going to give you his last name. But he sent a really nice letter that I'm just going to read. And he goes like this. I did a podcast a few months back, and it has changed my life, and that is not hyperbole, brother. Not only does your story just resonate with me, we have walked similar paths, but you have inspired me to pursue my dreams. I do not think the same message from someone else would have rung so true in my ears. It is all about the way in which you articulate your thoughts and ideas. It is so skillful and elegant, my man. Your words come through the earbuds with such clarity, and you have this incredible skill for distilling the ideas of others into digestible

pieces, which just makes sense. Well done, and keep up the excellent work. So that's really cool. Thank you, Matt, for that very nice letter. It feels really good to know that what we're putting out is connecting in that kind of way not just in a perfunctory kind of oh that was a fun podcast but that actually people are getting something out of it and implementing it into their lives for the better

yeah it was beautiful, beautifully said and on the subject of the power of community and the internet and kind of trying to get a message out outside the typical channels of mainstream media like television. We have a special guest this week, my friend Casey Neistat. I can call him my friend, I think. I think so. I think he's my family's favorite filmmaker. That extends down to our little girls, Mathis and Jaya, our big Casey fans. Right. Casey's awesome.

He is, if you're not familiar with who Casey is, he is the impresario of YouTube. He is the king of Snapchat. He's pretty much a social media maven. This guy puts out content through YouTube, through Snapchat, through Instagram, through all his social media channels that is just so, it's hard to describe. He shares himself authentically and very transparently. And there's just something about the quality of his content and the message that he's putting out that really resonates with me.

I've been a fan for a long time. I did a podcast with him, it must have been a year and a half ago or so. So we're going to sit down with him and hear a little bit from him in a minute. And this is a guy who is super smart. He's an insightful cat. He's got a gigantic imagination. He's got a huge work ethic, which I respect. And he just has a cool perspective on life, work, entrepreneurship. And if you're not onto his vibe, you should be.

So we'll get more into Casey in a second. But first. Okay, on to today's guest, Casey Neistat. How do you, how would you describe Casey? Your inspiration in who you want to be. I don't want to be Casey. I love what he does and I love following him. And what's funny in the conversation, he talks about how much he hates that word inspiration. He does. Sorry, Casey, I haven't met you yet. Sorry to bum you out. He is inspiring, but I don't think that he

really, uh, enjoys that mantle. And he doesn. And he doesn't like the idea of inspiration. He's all about like work ethic and like following through. Right. And that's kind of what we talk about today. Well, I mean, really what I think is, you know, what I see from him is I see that he was sort of a differently oriented child. And somehow he had something within him that allowed him to respect himself and kind of go his own way. And he made that decision and that's served him well. Yeah, for sure.

So he's definitely unique. It is inspiring. Sorry, Casey. To see somebody who kind of didn't fit the mold and went out and blazed his own trail and through a tremendous amount of hard work. Because people look at him and his life and his studio and they want to be him. And I don't think that they see how hard this guy works. Like he just, he is a workhorse, you know, and I have a lot of respect for that. And he's, his whole thing is like, I don't care about ideas. I care about execution. I care about follow through. And that's kind of

what he represents. And he's just constantly putting out amazing videos on YouTube. He does a Snapchat story every single day. I think he's the best thing on Snapchat. And he's just an artist with a ton of creative energy telling really relatable personal stories to help us all kind of access and find the adventure in life. You know, this idea of above all investing in experience, which I really like. And, you know, to be bold, to do more, which is his sort of ethos that is tattooed on his forearm. It says do more on his forearm. I first became aware of him in like 2010. He had a television show on HBO called The Nystap Brothers that he did with his brother Van that was produced by a guy that I went to high school with, Tom Scott. It was a really

cool show that kind of revealed his DIY sensibility, and he's gone on to work with huge brands like Nike. He made an amazing YouTube video called Make It Count. That's kind of legendary on YouTube. I'll embed that in the show notes on the episode page for this episode. And then he made another really cool video that's one of my favorites, which was intended to be a marketing promotional video for the movie, The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.

Fox, 20th Century Fox contacted him and said, would you make a video that would help us kind of market this movie? They gave him a budget of $25,000. And instead of making a video about the movie, he went to talk Loban, uh, in Southeast Asia and basically took all that money, the $25,000 and put it towards aid to the, the, um, survivors of the, um, I want to say hurricane. It wasn't a hurricane. It was a, uh, it was a typhoon right to the survivors there. And that's a very touching,

beautiful, uh, beautiful film. Uh, when I sat down with him, uh, last winter, uh, the next day he went out and there was a huge snowstorm and he went snowboarding all over New York city. And that was a movie that went viral overnight, which was insane, super fun. And about a month ago, he started a daily vlog, which is basically he's making a new YouTube video every single day of just kind of what he's doing in his life. And the quality of these is extraordinary given, given the fact that he's doing one every single day and they're, they're quite irresistible. And like you said, our kids love them. Jaya, who's seven, always watches Casey's videos. Casey stickers on her computers. Casey stickers all over her laptop. Casey watch out, Casey. She's on your heels. I know. She's getting ready to start her

own YouTube channel. I sent Casey a photo of Jaya with the laptop in her lap with all his stickers all over her laptop as she was watching one of his videos that he loved. But it's interesting. It makes you wonder like, okay, well, what motivated him to suddenly start doing a daily vlog after all this time? And, and I have a theory about this and this is pure speculation, but Casey is in the process of starting a new business and he's been very cagey about, uh, you know what it is. He hasn't said anything publicly about what this new business is. It's all very hush hush. Uh, he's been spending a lot of time at MIT at the media lab there where he's a fellow. He's been hanging out with a lot

of super smart techie dudes, guys who wear like Google glass. When I ran into him outside of studio, he was with a couple of guys. They're all wearing Google glass and he's extremely, I think this is something people don't understand is that he's extremely savvy when it comes to not just social media, but tech hardware and software. He really implicitly understands what works, what doesn't, why, which platforms fall short, why they fall short. And if I had to guess, and again, this is total speculation, I would venture to say that he just might be hatching maybe his own new social sharing platform, video-based, of course. I think it's a big idea. Whatever he's working on I think is big. You know, a platform that would specifically meet his criteria of what would be great because he's very exacting.

You know, I don't know. What do you think the name of it would be? I could be totally wrong. Who knows? And it's not like Casey answers this question in the podcast. Before we started, I said, can you talk about your new business? He's like, no, I really can't. You know, no boy, no, couldn't do it. But I will say this and we'll get into the interview. I really think that Casey is truly one of the more relevant cultural voices out there right now. And it was really cool to sit down with him once again with this very important caveat. I thought we were going to talk for about 90 minutes, which is my typical podcast interview time.

But about 45 minutes into the interview, just as I felt like we were starting to hit a groove, I kind of felt like we got off on a little bit of a disjointed start. But we were kind of just starting to get into it. And I was feeling good about where the conversation was headed. He looks at his watch and he goes, I got to go. Like, he's like, I have to leave. I got another meeting. And I was like, what?

What do you mean? Like, we're right in the middle of this. So that was a little bit of a bummer. But hey, what are you going to do? It was fun to be able to spend at least a little bit of time. And as you will hear at the end of the podcast, it sort of comes to a comedic, uh, very abrupt halt at the end. Cause he has to do more. You can almost hear me wondering like, what is going on? Uh, so I'm not sure I got the full Casey experience I was hoping for, but

nonetheless, it's full of some gems. I think you'll enjoy it. I think you'll enjoy it. And I'm just sort of preparing you for how it ends. Anyway, I'm going to go. We're going to be in New York City again in June. I'm hoping I can pick it up where it left off and go another round with Casey. So what do you say we step into the incredible lower Manhattan studio of Casey Neistat. This is a studio that Wired Magazine has called one of the most compulsively organized, ridiculously customized, and mind-bogglingly gear-saturated spaces on planet awesome. And I concur. It's a pretty special place. Casey's a really special guy. So let's step into his world and see what he's all about. Cool?

Sounds great. The first time we did this was the day before the original snowpocalypse. I don't know if you remember, but I was in here and you were getting ready for the big snow. And then the next morning is when you went out and made the snowboarding video. Yeah, that's right. And then I was back here a month ago, and we were going to do this, and that was when we were supposed to get Snowpocalypse 2, right? So you're like, sorry, man.

No can do on the podcast. I've got to get ready for the snowstorm. The irony is that night I had an entire crew, an entire movie shoot crew. We had my crazy truck ready to drive around the city after traffic was closed. We went so far as to get a hotel room right next to the studio. That way in the morning, we didn't have to worry about the crew showing up at 5 a.m. to get started. We could not have been more prepared.

So you're going to go super next level on it? I mean, so next level. What were you going to do? The snow just never showed up. I know. You know, I don't like to talk about what i was gonna do it's such a loser yeah all right well it didn't happen we gave it our best shot mother nature screwed us over i think you had this like really uh kind of unsatisfying like drive around the city in your jeep trying to find snow that wasn't there we

just wanted to know like how did they screw it up so bad? It's incredible, right, that in 2015, I mean, is that a reaction to, you know, the hurricane and all of that? Like, everybody was on such incredible high alert. Like, this was going to be, I mean, literally in my hotel, they slid a notice under the door saying, we're shutting down. You're not going to get maid service. You better go get groceries because everything's going to be shut down. And I'm like, are you telling me that, like, the guy, the Korean guy in the bodega is not going

to show up? Like, come on, we're in Manhattan. The whole thing pissed me off. It made me angry because they shut down the subway system for the first time in 80 years due to snow. And it's just like, that's not what New York City is. It's like, we're not, we can persevere through anything. Don't prematurely shut all this stuff down. Nothing's happened yet. Not to mention it's snow. It was 28 inches in 96. The city was fine.

The silver lining for me was I got up and I was like, I'm going to run the city. And just the idea of running down the middle of Fifth Avenue or Park Avenue with no car, because there was a ban on any non-essential cars or transportation being in the city, and it was so quiet. And you could just,it was kind of a beautiful thing to do that. We did that same thing, but in my gigantic eight miles to the gallon monster truck going up Park Avenue.

Breaking the law, right? Because you weren't supposed to. Well, I mean, if you're going to break the law, you might as well go all the way. So it was like there were no other cars, so we didn't have to stop at stoplights, and there were no people out, so yeah, it was fun. I know. So you're going to have to wait until next year and there were no people out. So yeah, we were just, it was, it was fun. I know. So you're gonna have to wait until next year for that. So let's talk about Emirates airlines. Yeah. Those are pretty special experience. I know you're, you're partial to American, but, uh, I've been, I went to the middle East three times in the last year and, uh, flying that airline. My only analogy for that is it's like being on in like Kim Kardashian's Bentley

or something like that. Look, just to qualify my partiality towards American Airlines, it's purely based on like intelligent, considered business considerations, not any loyalty to the airlines. It's a good airline. Like all US airlines should be ashamed, maybe with the exception of JetBlue, but they should be ashamed of themselves at just how atrocious customer service is, at how old and busted their planes are, at how they nickel and dime you for services. It's just a night. I spend my life on airplanes. And every time I travel outside of the States and you experience other airlines,

they're just trying. They're trying to do something good. States and you experience other airlines where they're just trying, they're trying to do something good. So anyways, I don't, I don't know that I'm actually prepared to endorse American Airlines or any other airline. I gotcha. Especially while I'm picking on airlines, British Airlines,

I think is maybe worse than any even US provider because they're just so bad. But Emirates is like next level. It's pretty, it was a special experience. It's pretty crazy experience flying on that. Did you see how they have like the separate entrance for first class so that nobody has to even actually interact with those people and they get separate? Oh, you do. You were on like a smaller commuter plane, right? No, no, no.

It was a triple seven. Oh, was it? Okay. But you know, it's not that. Like, I think that, I don't think that it's about the amenities. It's, for me, it's just about how you're treated as a human being. And when you fly in the States, it's like the attitude that is put on you from the airline is like, fuck you, how dare you show up on my airplane.

You're inconveniencing us. Sit in your seat, eyes down, and don't you dare talk to me like I'm a person. That's how you're made to feel. You're made to feel like you're doing something wrong. And I find like Emirates is not the only one, but Emirates is certainly like at the top of the list where they like treat you like a human being. They look you in the eye when they speak to you. Japan Airways, the same way, like my, even my kid, he flew on it once and he always brings

it up how nice the woman was because she saved his food for him while he was asleep. You know, it's just like they treat you like a human being right i don't know why we've drifted so far away from that when it comes to customer service in the states well customer service in general across all sort of platforms is the bane of my existence and probably most people i mean i think we're in a we're in a culture right now where we've become sort of subservient to these gatekeepers at customer service that control our day and our hours and our time spent. So whether you have to call AT&T and change your cell phone plan or whatever it is, you're held hostage by these people for everything that we need to do. And I think that's a different – like, it's a new thing. It's a new thing. I'm sure it has to do with, like,

bureaucratization of these processes. And in any event, it ends up sucking for us. So when you do encounter something that feels like good customer service, it's a lovely... You're amazed, you know, but it should just be that way. It should just be that way. Yeah, it's like the difference between flying first class and flying in coach. Isn't that first class is so great.

It's just that coach is so bad that it's just like how it should be when they, you know, smile at you and they give you like a terrible microwave plate of spaghetti instead of being in the back where you get like, you just get glass eyed and then you get to pay $5.99 for a pack of M&Ms. Right. So how was the experience in the Middle East for you? So I was in the Middle East. I was giving a talk in Dubai for Google. And then I was in Doha, in Qatar, giving a talk at VCU,

which is Virginia Commonwealth University. It has a campus over there. Oh, it's like their overseas program. That's correct. And it's mostly comprised, I think it's University. It has a campus over there. Oh, it's like their overseas program. That's correct. And it's mostly comprised, I think it's about 50% comprised of actual Qataris. And then the rest is sort of people from the region. And then there's a very small minority of people from overseas. But it was amazing.

It was like an absolutely eye-opening, wonderful experience. The biggest takeaway for me was I was speaking at a design school in Qatar. And all the students, the vast majority of students were women, were girls. And the reason why is that design in the Middle East is culturally regarded as more of a feminine profession than a masculine one. And that to me was like the most exciting thing I could ever hear, because what that translates to me and what I said to the girls when I was speaking there is that that is opportunity. That misconception, which is nothing more than a gross misconception because the rest of the world knows that design is absolutely, you know, it's ambiguous. It's not a feminine or masculine practice, but it's something that is, you know, that everyone should be enthusiastic about. that everyone should be enthusiastic about.

So the fact that these girls had this opportunity to me was just like tremendously exciting and something that I was really happy to be a part of. Well, empowering too in a culture traditionally that is not so friendly towards sort of the upward mobility of women. Yeah, I guess so. I don't understand the culture well enough to really get into the nuances of that. But it certainly is like, you know, a lot of these young girls were wearing veils. You know, you couldn't see their face. And I was still chatting

them up and hearing about how excited they get about designing a skateboard and the work that they're doing is so uplifting. You know, And then their professors kind of pull me aside and say, a lot of these women, culturally, all they've ever been raised as is to get married and have children. And certainly seeing this education that they now have access to means that there are more opportunities for them. There are more paths for them. And that's something that was, I don't know,

it was tremendously exciting for me. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I haven't been there, but I went to Bahrain. I went to three cities in Saudi Arabia. I went to Lebanon, which was cool. Like I've been to some of that area. And just being to immerse yourself in that culture, I mean, it couldn't be more different than here. But just absolutely fascinating.

Yeah, I mean, the other thing is so many of the Qatar students there are just inherently very wealthy just by default. So you have these students there that have no reason, no financial motivation to learn or pursue any profession. And you would think ostensibly that means that they would be less engaged or not really care. And I found the opposite to be the truth. I found that the students that were from there, especially the ones from affluent backgrounds, were more engaged and more excited about what they were learning and the potential that that might yield than what I've seen almost anywhere else.

But in any event, it was really fantastic to have the opportunity to spend time with them. And when you get up and you give these talks, it seems like you're giving more and more talks these days. Like, is it the same talk or what is the message? Like, what's the core thesis of what you're trying to communicate? I think you said it right in that there is always one sort of core thesis. And then how that's built on is appropriated for each audience. So, you know, in Dubai, speaking on Google's behalf or speaking at a Google event, it's the core thesis. And then what's built around that is how I was able to apply what I do to advertising and how that works on a platform like YouTube.

So it's fairly specific. And then speaking with a group of students, it's the core thesis. And then built around that is how to leverage an understanding to build a career. So the core of it is always the same. And then how that story is appropriate is dependent on what the audience is. And what that core is, I guess I would describe that, I would abbreviate that as it's working in the creative space is to work in a space where there is no defined path. If you want to be a doctor, if you want to be a car mechanic, if you want to be a, um, uh, you know, if you, if, if you want to be a butcher or even want to be a, um, anything where there is sort of a defined path, here is how you achieve that.

So anything where there is sort of a defined path, here is how you achieve that. You can follow that path, and education is a great way to have access to that path, and you will, provided you do it well, you will succeed in that space. And the exception to that rule is anything that's creative. And creative can manifest itself in myriad ways, from filmmaking, in my case, to being a painter, to being a sculptor, to being, you know, I think even to being a politician and things like that, you know, and to being like a chef and to being a designer, to being an architect. Those are all creative endeavors. And I think the key to succeeding in any creative space is that you have to define your own path. And that by default is sort of a contrary position to what education is.

And I think that young people have expectations when they show up at school, at university, at college, and they want to be filmmakers, and they want to be artists, and they want to be painters, and they want to be writers, that the school will define that path for them. Here is how you become a successful artist. And the truth is, like, how many students does NYU Film graduate every year and how many people get Oscars every year? How many people actually succeed in the film world? And the truth is education is a tool, is an incredibly valuable tool.

Education is maybe the most valuable tool to help you find that path, but education alone will not provide you with that path. The same could be said for experience. The same could be said for things like internships and apprenticeships, and the same could be said for having access, and the same could be said for resources and money and the opportunity to travel. The same could be said for owning great cameras or owning great paintbrushes or reading a lot of books. Every one of these is a tool that can help you pave that path, but that path is up to you and you alone to define. And it's a very ephemeral answer, because I think, you know, people don't say, they don't look to a surgeon and say, Oh, my God, how do I become like you, you know, the path

is sort of self evident, like, well, these are the steps that you take to, you know, sort of fulfill that role. But I'm sure not a day goes by where people aren't, you know, asking you, like, how do I, how do I have the life you have? How do I do what you do? They're, they're still looking for that, like step-by-step process. And it's sort of an outward looking perspective, as opposed to an inward looking perspective, like the Werner Herzog model of like, you know, go work in a, you know, go work in a cannery, go like do something like have life experiences that can inform the expression of what it is that you're trying to, you know, communicate. Yeah, I think I think you said that very,

very well. Yeah. And look, part of this is why I always focus on that as an expression of my own frustration, because I get these emails from kids every day and I don't fault them for sending me these emails. What kind of camera are you using? No, not even that. But how do I get to do what you do? And it's like hard for me. I understand where that's coming from. It's hard for me not to be insulted as if I could explain to you via an email what it takes, you know, what it took for me to be successful.

And this is a path that you could then emulate. Like this has been a 15-year battle for me. And I still feel like I'm standing at the bottom of a mountain staring up. But it's been 15 years of nothing but focus and hard work and determination to have what little tiny taste of success or recognition that I have thus far. But it's certainly not something that I would describe as transferable. Looking for the life hack, the hack. Yeah, it doesn't exist. How can I shortcut my way to doing what you're doing? Yeah, and look, there are some nuggets, some truths in there that I think can help others find their path.

And these are generic truths. These are truths that I'm happy to say in front of an audience, but ones that could also appear in a motivational poster underneath a picture of a cat hanged by one hand off a branch. to appear on like a motivational poster underneath a picture of a cat hanging by one hand off a branch. But it's, you know, it's things like in the creative space, if what you're doing, if you're doing it the same way others are doing it, you're doing it wrong. That's a fact. You want to be a designer, an artist, a painter, a filmmaker. If you're following, if you're doing it the way someone else is already doing it, that means you've already failed. You're doing it wrong. If there are a thousand sheep headed south on a road, and you jump in line with those sheep, and you think that by heading south, you're going to find success, like no

chance. There's no chance. You got to jump out of line and run north. And that's a truth. And then applying that to something that's actionable is where it gets really scary. But those are generic ideas that absolutely help promote discovering one's path. Those are generic ideas that absolutely help promote discovering one's path. I feel like you have a pretty strong conviction about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and where you're heading. But there's a juxtaposition of that with kind of being in faith that if you're just sort of propelling yourself forward and actively engaged in your own creative voice, that it's going to lead you somewhere. Yeah, I think that's a really optimistic way of looking at it. Maybe even a generous way of looking at it. I think a more, a less romantic perspective on that is like, an absolute disregard for failure. Like, honestly, who cares? We are, we are like healthy human beings that were born in the United States of America. Like we won the lottery on life. If you look at the history of humanity, if you look back 10,000 years to now, no one has ever in the history of ever had it as easy as we've had it.

easy as we've had it. And it's like, what does absolute abysmal failure look like to us? Like, I mean, what is the worst case failure for me in everything that I'm doing? It means like I'm dirt poor. I move out of New York City. I live in a trailer park and I'm on welfare collecting food stamps to feed my children. Like that's exactly where I was when I started my career, but that's rock bottom. And that's not such a horrible place. Like, I've handed out morphine in Uganda before to people dying of AIDS. Like, I've met Afghanis in the middle of Afghanistan during a war before. Like, I've had the luxury of being exposed to what true destitution looks like. Tacloban five days after the worst typhoon in the history of mother nature destroyed their life, their lives, like that is rock bottom. And we're so far from that. Like what, my business fails, and all of a sudden, like, I'd be living on the streets of the Philippines, like with my house destroyed and my family taken away from me, like no chance. No, it means like, I don't get to buy a fancy car. And it's like, is that something to fear? Absolutely not. So with that winning lotto ticket on life, I have a sense. And I think the fact that you had the upbringing that you did and had the experiences that you did where you struggled early on are really gifts that allow you to then really understand that failure is not that big of a deal.

It's not going to be that bad. And Tyler, my son, you met last time he was here. He's not with me on this trip, but he turns 20 tomorrow. And a couple of years ago, we were having a really hard time we thought we were going to lose our house like we didn't we were in a weird place where things like were not working very well but we were trying to kind of do new and different things with our lives more based on like you know the things that i'm doing now and passion and stuff, and we went and lived in Hawaii in yurts on a farm for three months on the North shore of Kauai. And we weren't sure

whether we were going to come back to LA or whether we were going to be able to save our house and all these sorts of things. And it was a very tenuous period of time. And Tyler said something to me recently where it was just a couple of months ago. He's like, that was the best thing ever. You know, he's like,, because I know that was actually an awesome experience, and we were together, and we did it. And if that's the worst, like if I had to go live in a yurt and basically sleep on a cot, so what? That was an awesome time. I had fun. And so that informs his perspective of the world to take additional risks and to pursue what's most important to him as opposed to taking the safe route. It's always the struggles that define you in life.

Look back at your life, whether you're 13 years old or 80 years old, and it's always the hardest times that made you who you are, not the easiest times. And I think knowing that, you should pursue the struggle. Like a really smart friend of mine, friend of yours, Tom Scott, said to me, like, you should pursue poverty in your 20s. And that is such like a valuable piece of information. And what that means is like you get out of college, you don't take the job that pays you 45 grand a year, and then take that money and get an apartment and sign a lease for $700 a month and then take that money and what's left over and go lease a brand new Honda that restricts you to $300 a month. Then you're 23 years old. You have all of these bills. You're accruing more debt.

And the handcuffs are set. They're locked. The key's been thrown away. How do you get away from that? Instead, say, screw it and seek poverty. That way you can trust that every decision you make is based on a passion and desire to actually do it, not some sort of false financial opportunity that's been ingrained in us sort of culturally, because I think that's a cultural misconception. I think that that's wrong. Yeah. I made all those mistakes. And so

when I talk to young people, it's the same thing. It's live lean, invest in adventure. Yeah. Because the truth is you won't always be able to, it's like, if you think your car and rent is restrictive, like wait till you have kids, like wait till you have things that are actually of consequence, not just, not just failure to make payment on your car, but things that are actually of consequence. car, but things that are actually of consequence. But you said something that I wanted to touch on when you said culturally we're sort of taught to pursue comfort, security, and relaxation. And I hate that. I mean, I hate all of those things.

But look at any television commercial, any billboard. I agree. Like, relaxation is my least favorite thing in the world. I hate it. Like, it's my second least favorite thing is vacation. I hate it. Like, the idea of not being productive in life is something that just, like, it makes me cringe. And at the risk of sounding overly patriotic or jingoistic, which is not my intention,

And at the risk of sounding overly patriotic or jingoistic, which is not my intention, but like America, we were built on like this generation that came back from war after saving the world and then became like this nation of workers that, you know, like we own manufacturing in the world. We exported more oil and more goods than anywhere else on planet Earth. And like we did that, by working hard. And that was, like, this wonderful life. Like, that's what defined and built America was that time after the war. But that also was the birth of the middle class, and that's where this idea of, like, having the good life started to creep in, I think. Totally. And that's the danger is that it's not sustainable. You cannot sustain an ethos of hard work and hunger.

Hunger is something that goes away the moment you're fed. So how do you, I mean, it's something I struggle with my own kid is like, Owen's 17 now and he's a wonderful boy and he gets great marks in school and all that. But like, I look at him and it's like, shit, I screwed up here. Like I always made sure he's had whatever he wants and he's always felt safe. And instead I should have thrown him to the sharks. Yeah, but he's gone on so many adventures. I mean, he's so worldly compared to most kids his age. I'm not worried about him at the least. I just, I know the struggles that I got to experience when I was his age.

So there was this girl, I'm digressing right now. I hope that's okay, Rich. There's this girl that I know and she talked to she talked to my brother, Van, and me. This is years ago. She's probably 25. She's absolutely the most beautiful girl, super rich girl. And she had this, like, what do I do with my life thing that she came and talked to Van and me about.

And I remember, I don't know if it was Van or it was me who like sort of laid it down or we said, stop taking money from your parents. Like, close or get away from your trust fund. Get a job in a restaurant waiting tables. And she looked at us like, how dare you? That sounds like the worst thing ever. And we looked at her and we're like, you want to be a writer. How are you supposed to write if you don't understand life?

Like, if you have no actual exposure to life. Do you know what percentage of people actually get to live this dilettante lifestyle that is all you know? Like, instead, get out there. Like, understand what it means to live. Like, when Werner Herzog says that the application process for his fictitious film school

would be to walk from Paris to Berlin and keep a diary, and that diary is your application, I understand where he comes from. And when he says that he won't teach, he won't teach filmmaking in his film school, he'll teach you how to box. Right. I get that. It's the Hemingway school, you know? Oh my God. Yeah. So, I mean, this idea of vacation really, I mean, I think that that when you're, when you're doing what you love, when you're actively engaged in your life, you don't feel the need to escape

that, you know, but when you're stuck in a job that you hate, you know, that's where the idea of like taking a break or escaping to go to some beach starts to crop in and sound attractive. Yeah. And I get it. And it's look, a lot of this, a lot of this diatribe that I'm laying on you right now, like is, is risky to say, because I think it's really open to misinterpretation and it means that everyone should drop what they're doing and go become an artist and travel the world. And that's wrong. I just think it's about finding what you truly love.

And I look at my very best friend through high school who remains one of my closest friends ever, and he's worked in a restaurant the last 18 years. He still washes dishes one night a week and he has a family and he has a small house and he has two cars and a big screen TV. But I look at him and it's like, it's hard for me not to look at him and be like, why don't you leave that job and go like, find your passion. But the truth is how passion manifested for him was having this sense of security and having his family and having a wife that he loves and having two children now that he loves to watch and grow up.

And I look at him and he is a guy who's living his dream. And he's very, he's most certainly lower middle class, living in a small house, living in a crowded neighborhood, working in a restaurant. But he's happy most of the time. He's found his dream. So that happiness and that dream can manifest in myriad ways. It doesn't mean you have to be, you know, you have to be traveling the world and jumping off of bridges and being, you know, being sensational. But I just think it's being true to yourself and making sure you're doing something that you do actually love.

Right. But I think that that process, like kind of unpacking, you know, unboxing, like what is your passion? Like what is it that gives you a heartbeat? I feel like most people are so disconnected. We're just on a habit trail track that there's not a lot of emphasis on kind of looking internally to try to understand what that might be. You know, so a lot of people say, oh, I want your life, but they may not really know what it is that is the thing for them because that takes a little bit of work. Yeah, and you described it very well. I always say, like, in life you should only be doing one of two things.

The first is figuring out what it is you love, what your passion is, and two is realizing it. And the truth is very, very few people ever do the first thing because figuring out is much harder than actually doing it. If you know what you want, you just do it. Like, if you can see those goalposts at the end of the field, you just kick the ball through it, and you've done it. But if there's no goalposts, you have no idea where to go. And what happens is, during that search, you do things like you go to school, you do things like

you go on trips, you do things like you find experiences, and you have relationships, and you get dumped, and you have these ups and downs in life. But then what happens is life takes over and all of a sudden you're not a student and all of a sudden you have obligations and all of a sudden you have bills and all of a sudden you have a wife and then all of a sudden you have kids. And all of a sudden you're 43 years old and you've got a mortgage and a house and babies and cars and car payments and school payments. It's not an option anymore. And the option's gone. And it's no longer, the idea of figuring it's no longer there because life has handed you something else. Life has made the determination for you. And I think that's why it's

very important to sort of always hit the reset button and say like, am I happy? Do I love what I'm doing? And that answer can be yes for someone like my best friend that I described, who's like, yeah, he, he, he waits tables and he is a bartender and he's a dishwasher. He's also a people person. He loves being surrounded by people. You know, he makes an okay living. He doesn't worry about money. Like he stops, looks at his life and says, yes, I love what I'm doing. And he's not flying, you know, first class to Dubai because that's not where his passion is.

His passion is being at home with his family. So I think it's about asking yourself that question and being true to yourself. I think it's also about paying attention. And I think that when we're talking about obstacles or low moments, it's about valuing those rather than, like you said so eloquently, trying to sidestep them or avoid them. My wife always says, if somebody's being dismantled, like they lost their job or they lose all their money or something terrible happens in their life, like that's their sacred moment. Like don't rob them of that moment because that is fertile ground for really doing that kind of inward, um, work to try to say, all right, well, what now? Like what is meaningful to me? Like, what can I, how can I move in a different trajectory where I can express something that's more authentic

to who I would like to be? Like, I think those are amazing opportunities to change your life, as opposed to travesties or disasters. I mean, not to, like you said, like take away from the real life kind of, you know, pressures that things like that entail, but. I also think it's really easy for us to sit here

and be dismissive of them in retrospect because we're right. In retrospect, they're not a big deal. But when you're in the middle of those moments of the tough times in life, like the last thing you want to hear from some fucking guy with a podcast is that this is the most treasured moment of your life.

It's like, how dare you? But the truth is, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yesterday, I did a, last night I had an unbelievable podcast conversation with this guy, Tom Harden, who was a hedge fund manager and got busted for crossing the line

and became, he got tapped on the shoulder by the FBI and he became an informant. And his wiretapping activities led to over two dozen convictions and like toppled one of the biggest hedge fund managers in New York. Right. And so his whole, but basically he's still got a felony conviction and he avoided jail and he just got sentenced like two weeks ago and his whole life is destroyed. Like he can never pursue that job and he can't get employed. He's got two little kids and he discovered running, you know, he discovered running and he's like become this super passionate ultra runner.

And I asked him, I said, you know, if you could go back to that life, would you? And he was like, no, you know, like he's found something as a result of that process that the guy wakes up every morning, he meditates, he drinks yererba Mate, he goes running twice a day. Like he lives a completely different life now that he, I wouldn't say he's in a place where he's found gratitude for that quite yet, but he has found a way to find peace for himself. And there's beauty in that. Yeah. I, you know, I got run over by a car when I was 26, like stupid motorcycle situation. And when I was like in the hospital, my leg, my femur was broken in like 26 places, something crazy like that. And the doctor said, you will, he said, unequivocally, you'll never

run again. And prior to that, I wasn't like an unhealthy person, but I definitely smoked a pack a day and I liked to drink and party and like, I didn't really unhealthy person, but I definitely smoked a pack a day, and I liked to drink and party. I didn't really care, and I had that sense of invincibility. That's when I stopped smoking, and that's when I started running. I've run 22 marathons since then, and my focus now is all about health. So, yeah, I think that's a really leg's destroyed, and said, Casey, this is going to be a really valuable moment in your life, I would have punched you in the stomach and told security to carry you out. But the truth is, yeah, looking back at that, I'm appreciative of that. It forced me to realize how reckless I was with my own health prior to that.

And I think every low point in my life, I can look back and say the same thing. But I also think there's a difference between seeing the struggles in life as opportunities and seeing yourself as the victim. And I think we largely, and I say this, I can hear myself sounding cynical when I say this, but I think we live in a largely kind of entitled world. Not world, but culture. Our culture specifically, the people we're surrounded with have a sense of entitlement. And that sense of entitlement means that when I'm experiencing a struggle, it's someone else's fault. And therefore I'm a victim. And I hate that. I hate that more than anything.

I think there are victims in this world. I think you look at people who are sick and they shouldn't be sick. Those people are victims and that's a horrible, horrible thing. But if you're facing a struggle in life that's overcomable, like you're no victim. Like, you know, pull your boots up, like work hard, fight through it. Well, generally the person played a part in it happening anyway. I would say generally is nice of you to say. I'd say always, always.

Absolutely. Well, let's take it back a little bit. You know, the last time we sat down, we kind of went through the life story, the origin story. But for people that are new to the podcast, how did this all begin? We're sitting in this extraordinary studio, which, by the way, I'll transgress a little bit. transgress a little bit last sunday um i picked up the new york times and i was reading through the magazine and i saw the article on tom sacks who did you see that last sunday's new york so there's a there's an article about um he there's like a retrospective of his work or like a an installation on his boombox art and i was reading it. I'm familiar with his art, but I was noticing like in the

images of some of his pieces, the through line between kind of his aesthetic and like what you've built here in the studio. Like I can, when I look at like that wall over there on the back wall, I'm like, that's very, I can see the influence of Tom on, you know, kind of how you've, you know, crafted how you work and see the world. Is that fair? Yeah, I think I worked. I was his assistant when I was like 19 years old, and I moved to New York City, and I worked in his studio.

And I remember I was there for about six months before he said to me, Casey, you are the first assistant I've ever had who can come up with ideas for my artwork. And I, you know, I've like thought about that so much since then. And I also, you know, when I first started working for him, Van and I, my brother and I worked for him. We were getting paid $10 an hour and we weren't allowed in his studio. We worked in this like terrible warehouse three blocks away because we were too much like of a pain in the ass to be in his studio. But when we were there unsupervised, we started making movies about his artwork.

And then those movies, once he discovered what we were doing, those movies became a big part of his work. And this is all pre-YouTube. Yeah, this is like 2000, 2001. So I think there is this sort of connection between someone like him, who he's a sculptor and someone like me i'm a filmmaker um when you sort of look back at what are the things that excite us and i think that you know at the time when i first started working for him and he bestows a compliment

like you can come up with ideas for my work what that actually means is like we both like to make things with our hands we both sort of were raised in a similar environment we both have a very similar set of aesthetic principles and goals and things like that. And that's what, that's why we worked together so successfully. You know, when I was just a kid and he was a successful artist. But yeah, I think that, I think that that idea of, of handmade and making things is something that I've always been tremendously passionate about. You know, I made a telephone headset when I was eight years old using a toothbrush,

two pair of broken headphones, and like a bunch of tape, and it worked. Like it totally worked. And I think it was that sort of precedent of us growing up in a house where everything was broken and us always having to learn how to fix things that led to such a sort of a successful relationship with someone like Tom and then seeing how he's able to do something similar to that but build a career around it was certainly eye-opening. I would imagine empowering just to be able to observe what he was able to create and then inspire you to do your own version of that in the filmmaking context? I just read, who said it?

I think it was Chuck Close. I'm responding to your use of the word inspiration. I hate the word inspiration. It's like my least favorite word. And I've been trying to figure out why I have such disdain for the word inspiration. And I think it's a couple of things. But one, I think it's way overused.

Way overused. way overused everyone uses it too it's because like advertising has taken over that word that idea and like everything now is meant to inspire and like every piece of clickbait nonsense that's in your and my facebook feed is like this inspiring moment when like a puppy saves a fucking chicken from a well. And like I hate the word inspire. And then I recently read this amazing piece by Chuck Close where it starts, and this is the only part of the piece I remember because I committed this quote to memory, where he says, Inspirations for amateurs, the rest of us just show up and get to work. And that's exactly how I feel. When I get tweets, they're like, Casey, what inspires you get to work. And that's exactly how I feel. When I get tweets, they're like, Casey, what inspires you to make the work? There's no moment of inspiration.

It's all just a labor. And it's via the process of creation that the idea is actually birthed, that it's actually hatched. It's never a moment of inspiration and then the product is there. It's like everything I do, everything I make, I think that's true for most people in the creative world, is a product of a process. And that process invariably involves a lot of hard work. But there's never this idea of a moment of inspiration, where the inspiration carries you through and has the product be at the finish line. Well, I think inspiration is easy, too. And in some respects, it's almost lazy. Like if you scroll through Instagram, right?

Like suddenly now there's instead of images, it's like quotes on top of some kind of background, right? With like these platitudes. And maybe I'm cynical, but like I just can't – I'm not down with that. Like I just find that um, not insulting, but just sort of like, really, come on. Like, I think there's people want to be inspired. People are very easily inspired. I don't think it's that hard to inspire people, but I don't think that inspiration often translates into action. Yeah. And that's the, that's the gap. You know what I mean? Like, oh, that's inspiring. And then they just go back and do whatever they're doing. Yeah. On my flight to Dubai last week, I watched the movie Gandhi and I was very inspired at the end of that movie. And the moment it was

over, I didn't become like a political radical and try to change the world. The moment that movie was over, like opened up my laptop and went back to editing whatever stupid little movie I'm making next. Inspiration is absolutely cheap. And I think it's important. I think inspiration and ideas are important. I think they're both very cheap and very easy. And they're powerful.

And that's why people probably throw them around so much. But I think that there's real danger in that. I mean, the caveat that I would make is that, you know, look, you live your life incredibly transparently. You're sharing it on YouTube, sharing it on Snapchat, and I want to talk a little bit about that some more. But, you know, the manner in which you conduct yourself is inspiring to a lot of people. And, you know, the truth is, is that there probably are people out there who see your example and then make a different choice. So it's not that it doesn't have merit, you know? So totally. And I agree with, I agree with that entirely. And look, I, I, by learning about other

people, I can remember the first time reading like the autobiography of Malcolm X. And I mean, I've read that book several times, but the first time I read that, it inspired me, it moved me in such a way that like, it was absolutely a call to action. You know, knowing that he entered prison as a criminal and he left, uh, he left prison as a, as a extremely well educated autodidact because he sat up all night, every night reading every book in the prison library. Like that showed me that like my own lack of formal education was no barrier to my, my seeking out of success. And like, no, inspiration is an incredibly, incredibly powerful, powerful emotion and powerful thing. And I don't mean to diminish that

by saying I hate the word inspiration. I just mean the way that it's used today, culturally, the way it's used in popular culture, and the way that it's used today culturally, the way it's used today in popular culture, and the way that advertising has bastardized that word has made it diminish its value to me. So if you want to explain the effects of it or talk about the effects of it or the impact of it, or you want to talk about what it may lead to or what actions it may cause, that is tremendously exciting for me.

But to talk about inspiration, especially in the form of like, text in my Instagram feed, it's just it's eye rolling, pandering nonsense that I don't have time for. And it's like, it's cheap and easy. So let's talk about kind of the evolution of what you've been doing. I mean, the last time that we sat down, that was pre Snapchatapchat right so in the last that was a little over a year ago so um now there's this thing called snapchat and you were like on it like from day one since they uh revealed that added functionality of being able to create stories you were immediately on top of that and to this day i think you've posted one almost every day. You've only missed a few days.

And how has that, like, what was that choice about, and how has that kind of informed what you do? Well, look, I think if you look at the trajectory of my career, I was making movies in the early 2000s before the Internet, so I called them fine art and distributed them in museums and galleries around the world. And then, you know, I was in television, and had a show on HBO and I made feature films that I put into movie theaters. And then I discovered YouTube in like 2010 and the potential of that.

So I pivoted to YouTube. And, you know, Snapchat is something that I'm super excited about. But Twitter and Instagram are things that I'm excited about as well. excited about, but Twitter and Instagram are things that I'm excited about as well. I've always been sort of agnostic when it comes to what mediums I use to disseminate ideas and perspectives that I believe in. And I think that, you know, YouTube enabled me to all of a sudden reach a global audience and do it in an entirely democratic, egalitarian way. If HBO is elitist in that you have to pay for it and have access to it and have a television and all these barriers that existed, that exist still, you know, I think that YouTube is antithetical to that. Anyone with an internet connection can now access my work.

Therefore, the only barrier between them and my work is their decision to engage or not engage in the work. And that motivates me to make it better. So they choose to engage. And I love that idea. And I think what Snapchat enables me to do is to do that on a much smaller scale. It's the preciousness of creating movies is diminished in that I can just share sort of little tiny compartmentalized experiences that I've had using this distribution medium. Instagram enables me to do that with a still image and Twitter enables me to do that with words. Instagram enables me to do that with a still image and Twitter enables me to do that with words.

Snapchat enables me to do that with these little creations that involves drawing on the screen and putting silly geo filters and taking pictures and doing all these other things. But yeah, there's rarely a day that goes by where I don't see something that interests me enough to want to share it. And my host of tools becomes a YouTube movie. No, an Instagram post, maybe a Twitter post, okay, perfect. Or a Snapchat post is now part of that conversation. So I think, yeah, it's in the long sort of lineage of social tools and the dissemination of information from one to many. I think Snapchat's a really powerful tool and a really, really like pivotal step in sort of the evolution of that in distancing ourselves from needing an established medium to disseminate ideas

and instead just putting all of the power into that of the people. Right, or no intermediary, right? Because essentially what you do is is remove any kind of gatekeeper between you and your audience, whether you're creating on-air talent, you're the editor. And, and ultimately it's your story that kind of, uh, that almost trumps the product itself in terms of the narratives that you're spinning. So there's this, there's this kind of, um, I don't know how you doing. We're in the middle. We're Snapchatting now. That just totally threw off my train of thought.

You know what I mean? Like in a commercial aspect of what you do, it's this new idea of, you know, traditionally in advertising, there's the agency, there's the client, there's, you know, there's the product, There's the production company, which is often different. And you're sort of all of those things. Yeah, look, I think that in the established means of, I don't know, communication, of sharing, call it radio or television or any of those, there's always this filtration process that means producers, distributors, financiers, theater chains. There's a million different levels to that filter, that bureaucratization of the spirit of the original idea. But when you look at something like, I don't know, written word, or you look at something like a painting, like Picasso makes a painting, he hangs it on the wall,

then you go and you look at it. It means there's nothing between you and his idea. It's pure. It's true. And I think with – But the accessibility of that requires you to travel to go see it. Absolutely. So I think what technology has afforded us the opportunity to do is diminish that bureaucratization, diminish that. And all of a sudden now, because of technology, you have the opportunity to reach an audience directly with zero filtration in between you and that audience.

And that is a magical, amazing thing that we've seen governments overthrown because of Twitter. And we've seen like, you know, all kinds of promotion of empathy because of tools like Instagram. We're seeing, I think, Snapchat is, again, part of that evolution in sort of connecting people and making this direct communication between you and people that choose to receive whatever content it is you're sharing. But that decision is theirs alone and not based on this buffer that's in between. Right. They're not force-fed a commercial they don't want to watch. They have to opt in. They have to desire to see it. They're

volunteering for it. That's right. Rich, I gotta go. You have to leave? Yeah, I gotta stop this podcast. Do you? How long have we been talking? What time is it? 45 minutes. You gotta go? Yeah, I gotta go, man. I got meetings. Alright, dude. Alright. That's a good point

to end on, right? Yeah. Very abrupt. You know, I'm a man of many things, but subtlety has never really been one of them. I got you, man. All right. Hold on a second, though. I have to at least get one Snapchat of you talking, right? Do you want me to actually say something important?

I'm going to tell you, this podcast is now over. I'm trying to end this podcast, but Rich won't stop Snapchatting in the middle of it. All right. I can hear you posting that podcast. I can hear it trying to connect to that. Yeah, I know. He's making that buzzing noise. All right, man.

Well, thanks for the time. Yeah, this was awesome. I'll see you again next time there's a blizzard in New York City. I know, right on. All right, man. Peace. Great, Rich. Thanks.

Bye. Bye. All right. See what I'm saying? It just kind of ended right there. But hey, what are you going to do? It was still fun, right? I hope you guys enjoyed that. Casey's awesome. If you're not already a follower, I would highly suggest checking out his YouTube page, his Snapchat, I would highly suggest checking out his YouTube page, his Snapchat, his Instagram, his Twitter, all that good stuff. He's Casey Neistat, N-E-I-S-T-A-T,

pretty much everywhere on the internet. If you Google him, it's insane. For all the information, education, products, nutritional products, tools, resources, inspiration you need to take your health, your wellness, your fitness, and self-actualization to the next level, go to richroll.com. Check out our nutrition products, our educational products, our books, our garments, Julie's meditation program, all good stuff. If you're in online

courses, we've got two, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, which is a program that Julie and I did. Everything you need to know. It'd be good, like sort of companion piece to the plant power way, I think. Uh, and also I did one called the art of living with purpose. That's about goal setting and the inside work and how to set yourself, uh, up for a better life trajectory. Both of those courses are on mindbodygreen.com. Uh, you can find them pretty easy. Click on video courses on the homepage there. If you like the podcast, give us a review on iTunes. Pick up the free app to listen to episodes older than the most recent 50 that you find on iTunes.

Keep supporting the show. Give us a review on iTunes. Tell your friends. Pick up The Plant Power Way. Tell your friends about The Plant Power Way. You know what would be cool? And let's close it down with this. So the book is going to ship on people who pre-ordered the book. A lot of them are going to get the book on their doorstep on Tuesday by the time they're listening

to this. So pick it up, make a recipe from the book, share that recipe and your experience of using the book on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, all that kind of stuff. Let us know how the recipes are doing and let us know online how you're enjoying the book. What's your favorite recipe? Post us, tag us. We'll share it. We'll throw you the love, throw us the love. It's all good. We're just having a huge global internet party. It'd be great. All right, you guys, we'll see you soon. Thanks. Peace. Pl right, you guys. We'll see you soon. Thanks. Peace. Plants.

Namaste.