The Rich Roll Podcast - Chris Hauth: Building Better Athletes, Training For Optimal Performance & Achieving Fitness For Life

Episode Date: November 14, 2016

This week marks the highly anticipated return of Chris Hauth to the podcast. A sub-9 hour Ironman, Chris (@AIMPCoach) is the current Age Group Ironman World Champion, a former Olympic Swimmer and one of the world's most respected endurance coaches. In 2006, Chris won the Ironman Coeur D’Alene and went on to be the first American amateur & 4th overall American at the Ironman World Championships in Kona, Hawaii. When he's not training and racing, Chris expertly coaches a wide spectrum of amateur and elite professional athletes across a variety of disciplines, including Ironman and Western States top finishers, Ultraman winners and myriad swimmers towards age group nationals and Olympic Trials. My relationship with Chris began in 2008. A coach/athlete mentorship turned friendship that profoundly and forever altered the trajectory of my life. Brilliantly guiding me through three Ultraman World Championships ('08, '09 & '11) as well as EPIC5 in 2010, my debt of gratitude for Chris' tutelage cannot be overstated. Simply put, I could have never achieved the level of athletic success I have enjoyed without his deft counsel, which has been instrumental in maximizing my potential as an athlete and bettering me as a human being. Today I am pleased to share his wisdom with you. This is a general conversation about Chris' evolving philosophy on training, racing and life. It's also a granular and technical masterclass on optimal training protocols, the common mistakes most athletes make, the approach and mindset required to break the glass ceiling on potential, and how to effectively balance performance goals against general health and well-being. But at it's core, this is a conversation about multi-sport as a crucible for self-awareness and growth. Endurance sports as metaphor for life.  We cover a lot of ground in this conversation, including: * Chris’ training & racing philosophy * aerobic vs. anaerobic training * the benefits of calculated progression * pros & cons of external monitors/trackers * race plan execution * prioritizing core strength * strategies for optimizing recovery  * the facts on fad dieting and fitness nutrition * striking the proper balance between performance & general health * overcoming adversity through mental & physical fitness, and * the imperative of fitness for life I have an inkling this episode will leave you wanting to hear more about Chris' story and philosophy. If so, check out RRP #21 — our first podcast exchange back in the early days of the program. Then check out his website AIMPCoaching and let him know what you think on Twitter at @AIMPCoach. Still have questions for Chris? Shoot him an e-mail at [e-mail] (Chris – you might regret sharing your e-mail here!) I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich

You need to be connected with your body and listen to it. It will tell you so much if you slow down and really embrace and stay present in your training and are there to listen to what your body's telling you. It gives you all the answers you need from a nutrition standpoint, from a training standpoint. That's a skill. You learn to listen to your body. That's Chris Houth, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome or welcome back to the show.

My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. And of course, this is the podcast where I go deep and heady and long form with some of the most intriguing thought leaders and positive paradigm-breaking change makers all across the globe. An incredible collection of people who really have devoted their lives to making the world a better place. I appreciate you guys tuning in today. If you would like to support the show, there are many, many ways to do that.

But perhaps the single most powerful way you can help is to just subscribe. So if you haven't done so already, please, please make a point of clicking that subscribe button on iTunes or on whatever app you use to consume podcast content. And thank you so much for doing that. This week, it's all about healthy living and endurance multi-sport training and racing and lifestyle with my coach, Chris Health. Chris is the current age group Ironman world champion. He's a former Olympic swimmer and a top endurance coach. In 2006, Chris won the Ironman Coeur d'Alene and went on to be the first American amateur and fourth overall American at the Ironman world championships in Kona. When Chris is not

racing and training himself, he guides all manner of athletes, including Ironman and Western States top finishers, Ultraman winners, and plenty of swimmers towards age group nationals and Olympic trials. But before I go deeper into what's in store with this conversation, let's take care of a little business. Okay, Chris Health. So by way of background i started working with chris in 2008 and have been working with him ever since he trained me through three ultraman world championship competitions as well as epic five and i can honestly say that i could have never achieved the things that i've been able to do as an athlete without his guidance and

without his wisdom, which have been absolutely instrumental in my success. So I just wanted to formally thank Chris before we get into the conversation for everything that he has done for me. And it's an absolute pleasure for me to be able to give him a microphone to share his message and his wisdom with you guys. So this is a conversation, of course, about endurance training, but it's also about so much more. We cover Chris's training and his racing philosophy in general and how it's evolved over the years. And then we get granular.

years. And then we get granular. We start to geek out on aerobic versus anaerobic training, the pros and cons of external monitors and trackers, all the devices that we use, the importance of core strength, how to best execute your race plan, optimizing recoveries through sleep and nutrition, and striking that proper balance between performance and general health before we kind of culminate discussing how to best overcome adversity through mental and physical fitness. Chris and I sat down quite a while ago in the early days of the podcast for episode 21. So if you enjoy this, I strongly suggest you rewind back to that episode for a lot more from Chris. It's well worth your time. In the meantime, you can learn more about Chris at AIMPcoaching.com and give him a shout on Twitter at AIMPcoach.

And without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Chris Houth. Chris Houth in the house, man. It's been a long time. It has been. It's been what? Five years? Four years? Something like that. Well, we did that first podcast that was super early days. I don't remember what number episode that was. Three or something. But I do remember we were in a hotel room and we were each sitting on the edge of a bed with a little table in between us, which is exactly what we're doing right now. Yeah. So we're reprising that aspect of it.

We've grown. A lot of miles on the road since then. And it's really great to see you, man. It's been way too long. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, we've got a lot of history between us. between us. And I guess I should say, you know, at the outset, before we even get into it, I just wanted to, once again, thank you, because all of this stuff that I have the great privilege of being able to do these days is in such a large part the result of the time and energy that you

invested in me. And I can't thank you enough for that, man. It never would have happened without all of your advice and counsel and accountability and wisdom that went into helping me during that period of time. It was really amazing. And you're at the vortex of it. So I appreciate that very much. Well, you're very welcome. And also, I mean, you've had a big impact on me because over the last few years and all the athletes that have come to me due to your book have taught me a lot about coaching, about lifestyle, about nutrition, about plant-based, about things that I never thought I would get into. Exactly.

And it's been a growth process for me, too. I do fully see myself as a better person now than I was five, six, seven years ago when we first started working together. I learned from you, too, so I thank you. Well, that's great to hear, man. Very, very cool. I learned from you too, so I thank you. Well, that's great to hear, man.

Very, very cool. I would say that from my book, Finding Ultra, the quote that gets sort of shared on social media and that I hear the most, like almost daily, is something you said to me that I put in the book that I still think about almost every day, which is, I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember exactly what you said, but it was something like, the prize never goes to the

fastest guy, it goes to the guy who slows down the least. And I think I said in my book, you know, this is true in endurance sports, but also true in life. And the hilarious thing is that I see that quote, and then it's attributed to me and every time i'm like no i didn't say that chris said that yeah yeah ultra endurance sports it's a different animal and so many people see it differently or have a different idea of it and so being able to look at it from a different spectrum when you're thinking about endurance sports is the first step to being successful in endurance sports. There's no speed involved. The training is different.

The mindset is different. So, so much happens that you would want to look at it through a different prism, and that quote helps with that. Right. A different prism from what? Like what would be the default prism that most people perceive it through? Go hard or go home. Right. Right.

I only race as fast as I train. You know, if I don't train hard, I won't race fast. And all that pushing too hard will not help you in ultra endurance sports. And A, you fizzle out physically fizzle out mentally and it's a longer event than going hard right yeah how has uh i want to maybe we can sort of since it's been so long since we did our first podcast maybe you can lay out your your basic kind of training philosophy and then we can kind of pick apart how that's evolved since the last time we got together. Yeah.

Well, you know, a lot of the fundamentals still stay the same with regards to an aerobic platform, with regards to building a foundation from what we can work from, whether it's an ultra run, an Ironman triathlon, some crazy swimming event. I mean, it's grown across the board. I have athletes doing all kinds of things all over the world. Yeah, when you started, it was just run a marathon or do an Ironman, basically. Those were the two bucket list items that everybody would seek you out for guidance on. And now it's gone from solo sailing around the world to— Really? You coached somebody who's doing that last year i did wow to helping um guys through buds um seal training oh wow to the traditional iron man ultra man you know 100 mile run things um but yeah endurance sports has a common thread

through there and a lot of it is based on the fundamentals of aerobic training and getting your body ready to be able to work with the rigors that are coming towards it. Explain what aerobic training is and the difference between that and what would be considered anaerobic training. So aerobic training is more the lower heart rate, easier on the body training, where you're almost annoyed when you're finishing the workout that it didn't really feel like a workout. It is at a low heart rate compared to your thresholds. And it's usually at the paces that you'd be surprised how slow they are if you were to do them standing alone. But when you're doing them in an ultra-endurance event, whether it's an Ironman and your marathon pace or a 100-mile run, which is higher intensity, higher heart rates, more glycogen and blood sugars being used in order to power the muscles. This is more fat-based. So it's a different energy system, the aerobic energy system versus the anaerobic energy system.

Yeah, I just had Charlie Engel on the podcast. system yeah i just had uh charlie ingle on the podcast and one of the things that he always says when he gives talks in front of people he gets up and he says who here can run a mile and like i don't know what it is i think he says like 10 minutes or something like that and so almost everybody raises their hand he's like well if you could do that 135 times in a row yeah not only would you win bad water you would destroy the course record yeah yeah you know because people have the uninitiated have this idea that you know guys that are running these hundred mile races are just killing it the whole time and if you were actually to witness what's going on oh yeah it's like a death march shuffle it is as well as you also have to get your mind

ready for that right um things moving so slowly towards the finish line. So that's the whole second aspect of an ultra endurance training is getting the mind ready for what it's about to go through. And that happens with slow progression in volume, right? I mean, I remember training for Ultraman. People say to me, how can you go out and ride your bike for nine hours without going insane? And they don't understand that, you know, that you build up to that. Like before that it was an eight hour and then it was a six hour, it was a five hour. And there's this weird elastic equation with time

where it compresses and suddenly that nine hour ride feels like a two-hour ride. In the same way, if you're driving cross-country and you kind of lose time, and you wake up and you're like, where have I been the last two hours? I don't even remember a single road sign that I saw. Yeah, there's a lot of cyclists, especially in the off-season, they start doing less miles. And they're like, how did I ever ride six, seven hours a day? Now two hours feels awful.

So yeah, time does get compressed. But the progression is also more about keeping your body healthy and injury-free. And that's sort of the biggest aspect of where my coaching and my training philosophy has evolved. And that is the primary singular focus on keeping athletes injury-free and healthy and that's a wide spectrum but in order to train successfully to build that load to be able to do it day after day after day we need to start with a healthy and injury-free body. So if we can start with that first point, we are set up for success in endurance training, because then we can create the load day after day, week after week. And within

that spectrum too, is that the athlete learns so much more about their body if they can stack the training. Day after day, they're starting to observe things, how their body reacts to the training, how they're recovering, how they're sleeping, all those things that help them become a more educated athlete. And then from that, it's a cycle of success because they understand themselves better, they can stay healthy and injury-free longer, and they can stack more training. That was definitely my experience working with you. I never got injured in the years that we were working together, which is insane when I think back on it,

because now when I go out and just do whatever I feel like doing without you being involved, the amount of training that I'm doing right now is ridiculously limited by comparison, and yet I'm constantly having little issues and stuff like that. So you said, well, then the athlete starts to learn about themselves. And yeah, I have that self-knowledge. And yet, I still don't have the meter or the self-discipline required to put enough thought into what I'm doing so that I avoid all of that.

You know what I mean? Yeah, and you stay connected to your body when you're doing it day after day. You stay really in tune with it and you hear what it's saying to you. And whether that comes from how you're recovering and how you're sleeping to all the little niggles and pains that you might have in big volume training, you know how to interpret it. And you know how to sort of adjust for it the next day with a better night's sleep or how you're going to move a different workout

that doesn't pound the legs and instead go for a long swim and so on. So it's that communication with your body and that communication with your coach, all three of them, we all work together in order for you to progress. And at the end of the day, that's the goal. Being a better athlete today than I was yesterday, being a better athlete tomorrow than I am today. And how do I progress? Well, healthy and injury-free is the key driver. And then just your ability to listen to your body to know what's

going on and being a better athlete tomorrow versus today doesn't necessarily and generally does not mean running faster today than i did yesterday you know what i mean so i think that the discipline uh what what i think a lot of people uh don't quite understand they understand the idea that you need discipline to get up and do something when you don't want to do it. But less understanding about the discipline to not do or to hold back or to have the restraint to not go that extra mile or go over your limit when you're feeling good. Because you feel like, oh, I feel good. like I should go harder, I should go further. I should go further. Yeah, listening to your body, as well as, yeah, progression, and being an athlete isn't necessarily training harder, faster, stronger.

It's sleep, it's nutrition, how you take care of your body. What am I doing today to make me better tomorrow? Might mean taking today off. how you take care of your body. What am I doing today to make me better tomorrow might mean taking today off, might mean spending time with the family today in order to then wake up tomorrow and have a little bit extra time to have an effective workout. Knowing today what I want to do tomorrow makes you a better athlete. There's so many ways to define progression, but all of them are part of that circle of knowledge that you create so that you can continue to progress. It's not just training.

It's not just nutrition. It's not just sleep. It all combines into, I know more today so that I can be a better athlete tomorrow. Right, and I think that's a big part of where you've grown and evolved as a coach. And I want to get into that. But before we do that, I want to camp out a little bit longer on this idea of aerobic training versus anaerobic training. And I want people to really kind of understand a little bit more in depth about what that's all about essentially as my understanding goes and correct me if i'm wrong aerobic training is all about creating body efficiency it's learning how to utilize fat as

fuel through training and building greater mitochondrial density so that as volume and intensity increases the tax and toll on on your physiology remains basically consistent, right? A delivery of oxygen to the working muscles is also part of it. Just becoming more economical in how your body works at those lower intensities. And what kind of fuel, like you said, it's using. and what kind of fuel, like you said, it's using, cartilage, ligament, all those pieces that tie into doing the motion more efficiently, more economically, using less energy so that you can go longer. And part of that is understanding that your lungs and your heart

will develop more rapidly than the ligaments and the tendons in your leg. So when you're, let's say somebody's training for their first marathon and they, they ramp up to a certain level of fitness and they feel good, their heart rate feels good, their lungs feel good, and they feel like they can go, go, go, but they haven't put in enough time, distance, volume in their legs so that those muscles and those joints and all the connective tissue is prepared for that next step. For those rigors. You're always holding people back and putting a lot of thought into what that progression looks like, which is basically two steps forward, one step back, take a break, let's pause, recover, and then let's

build again on top of that. These are multi-year programs. These don't happen in a couple months or six months. And I think it's a breath of wisdom and fresh air in an environment where it's all about the hack. Like, what's the shortest distance to this goal? Like, how can I train for my 100-mile run on three hours a week of running or something like that? You know what I mean? And some of it, out of fairness, is necessity, too, right? If you're a time-crunched. If you're a time-crunched athlete.

too right um and if you're a time crunched if you're a time crunched athlete but there my correction my corrective coaching with them is maybe we need to adjust your goals maybe we need to adjust your event don't just hit enter on a hundred mile run and realize four weeks in that you're not really going to be able to train effectively for it setting yourself up for disappointment possible injury other stresses because you taxed your family, your career, and all that. Try to fit it in, right? I mean, there's so much in this space that can go wrong. Exactly. That can go wrong.

And so that's what I call the coaching aspect of all this. of all this. I mean, I can give anybody training, but coaching ties into so much more on helping the athlete be successful to the event or the goal they signed up for. And some of those events, as we know from you, and I get monthly requests for some pretty crazy events. But then the athlete that is willing to work through it with me and talk through it and we set up a plan and sort of keep them on some sort of even footing to not get injured and progress forward. They learn more about themselves in those first few months on maybe this wasn't the best idea the way I had envisioned it, but I feel fitter and healthier and I'm progressing somewhat towards that goal. That is the joy and the beauty to see when people embrace the lifestyle of ultra-endurance sports. Right, because you have to, I'm sure people reach out to you all the time and they've got some insane goal. And it's about having the ability to have the perceptive ability to realize, like, well, is this – did they just wake up one day and they're excited and then tomorrow they're going to change their mind? Or are they really genuinely enthusiastic about making a change in their life, in which case you want to harness that and support that, right?

in the case of working with me, all I remember is you, like you never said, this is a terrible idea or like you really should aim lower. Like you are supportive, but you did exactly that. You're like, let's begin and we'll see how it goes.

And I'm sure you're thinking, well, he'll soon find out like where he's at with this and then we can make that adjustment. I never want to mess with somebody's goals or dreams, because in most cases they put some thought into what they're not just throwing a dart at the map and saying,

that spot in the world is where I want to do an 800-mile run. Sometimes that happens, though. Yeah, sometimes that does happen. So it's more about learning what they observe observe and they sort of get it after the first few months of saying you know what i see what you're saying now chris maybe that endeavor wasn't realistic for now right they come to it on their own exactly and that's the best way because a they're getting fitter and learning about themselves anyway while they're coming to it on their own and then we can still work through some other goals and milestones along the way to maybe

an incredible goal or event or something down the road anyway. But that's the growth of the athlete. And that's the fun, quite honestly, of coaching. Right. When I first started working with you, it was the first time that I had heard anything about what it means to train with a heart rate monitor. And you were like, I can't work with you until you get a heart rate monitor. Like, that's just, that's the way it has to be. And I was like, okay. And we do, we did all this lactate testing and figured out what my zones were and all of that.

And that was really an amazing way to kind of structure and understand how I was progressing or not progressing. And then when I wrote about that kind of aspect of how we work together in the book, my heart rate, like my zone two heart rate for running generally fell around like 140. I don't know what it is right now, but at that time, and the other thing that happens now all the time is people message me and they're like, I'm running at my 140 heart rate. And I'm like, no, no, no, that was my zone too, not your zone too. You need to figure out what your aerobic zone is. I have no idea whether you're running too hard or too slow based on an arbitrary number that was you know was really specific to

me yeah and it's funny you say that because i've actually gotten away from coaching too many i wanted a thing with too many inputs these days not that deliberate training intervals and pace and all that isn't very necessary for specific events but i also want a lot more feel training so that you exactly like i was saying earlier can connect with your body you can feel what's going on and so some athletes it's beneficial to have heart rate zones mainly to cap their effort of going too hard but other athletes are just that dialed and interested in knowing what's going on and like to measure progress at all times. Yeah. I think that's an individual thing, but I think that, that it's sort of like, you have to know the rules in order to break them. And, you know,

by training with heart rate and power meters on the bike for so long, I can basically tell you without them now where I'm at because I've spent so much time doing it. It's the same thing you go to the pool, like, if I'm doing 100 repeats, I can tell you within a second what my, you know, what my average time is on each one of these hundreds because I've swum billions of laps like you have, right? So, you just know, you know, but without having that experience, you're kind of operating in the dark, right? So, you can go on feel once you kind of have that body-mind connection that you can only get through experience. Yeah, and the master's athlete is new to all of this in many cases.

They weren't athletes in high school or didn't have any type of formal organized training. And so working with them to start understanding their body and what's truly happening is part of the process. And some embrace it. Others fight me tooth and nail. They're just like, no, I want to keep it fun and keep it light. They don't want that data to put pressure on them, which is absolutely fine.

Again, it's how they want to progress as athletes themselves. athletes themselves. And if they're listening to their body, and I can, again, navigate them to stay injury free and healthy, then we're probably doing okay. Right. But then there's the other guy who wants all the gadgets, right? And won't actually leave the house until he or she has the ultimate, you know, GPS watch, you know, whatever tracker device. I mean, there's more of that stuff now than ever before, which is great. It's getting people interested in health. And if you're a data geek,

you can go down the rabbit hole and that kind of stuff. But I think it can also distance you from why it is you're doing it in the first place. That as well as if you're letting, if you're overlooking the feel aspect of your training, come race day, when something goes wrong, when you're dealing with adversity. Totally fall apart. And you don't have your watch or those paces are just way off or your heart rate is way off or you can't hold a certain power number.

Not being able to close your eyes and reconnect with sensations and feelings that you had in many feel training sessions. It will mess with your race and it's usually in a negative way. Your day is oftentimes so negatively impacted because your mind just stepped away from the event that you're going to be disappointed with your result. Do you let your athletes use Strava? You set me up for that one. They use Strava. I have never looked at it.

It's something that they can use. And I have many athletes that say to me, well, just look at my Strava file. I go, no. Upload it to Training Peaks. Upload it to another site. And then I'll take a look at it there. But Strava is for yourself, right? That's your own. And your friends. And your ego. Yeah. Coaches, maybe they've embraced it more, and maybe I'm a little bit behind the times on it, but

coaches are not the biggest fans of Strava. Yeah, just for people that are listening, it's simply because it starts to work at cross purposes with the intention of whatever your workout is. Like I had to get off it because it was just inevitable that anytime I hit a climb on my bike, I couldn't help but think about like, well, here's a segment on Strava

and people are gonna see this. And like, what are they gonna think if my, I know Chris wants me to do a chill, you know, big gear zone two or whatever, but none of my friends know that they're going to be like, why are you such a slouch? You know? And then, and you're like, that's insane. You know, basically you're, you're doing the exact opposite of what you've been told to do because there's an internet site where people are going to be looking at your stuff. And I get the fun aspect of it, and I think anything that gets people out of the house and active is a good thing.

But it just depends on what you're trying to achieve. Yes, yes. And there's a big social pressure to the training for an ultra-endurance event. Like, what are you doing? Why are you training so slow? Or where were you all day? You know, I was out on my bike for eight hours. So you don't need or want or try to avoid the extra inputs that you get from people who say, what, what is your coach having you do? Oh, come

on, just come ride with us or do this. Right, a bunch ride on Saturday morning. Yeah, yeah. And there's a time and place for that. And if properly put in the training plan, it can be a very effective, fun workout. But yeah, eventually the Strava aspect will lead to, once again, not your best training, your deliberate training, and your outcomes that you're looking for. And then you sort of just had that workout

that yeah you did the workout but there was no progression from it there was no outcome that we were looking for and yeah it was you did the motions but you didn't train right you worked out it's yeah it's the difference between exercising or working out and actually training yeah yeah so so let's talk about how your approach with your athletes and with yourself has evolved over the years. I mean, when we worked together, heart rate, power meter, tons of zone two, high volume, which was great for me. Even when I was swimming, I always operated best

in a high volume kind of protocol. And any time I would be with a coach where it was like, all right, forget all that. That's all junk. Let's just do some super high focused, intense, shorter race pace stuff. I never ultimately responded as well to that. And that's just me. I know some people do really well at that. And you touched on a key point there. And that is, again, that's you knowing your body

and working with a coach that can facilitate that. So especially in ultra endurance events, there's people who respond very well to just tons of volume, but it's low intensity. well to just tons of volume but it's low intensity others they don't respond well to the big volume they need the high intensity shorter aspects of training threshold work you know half the hours needed or half the hours of a volume person but they respond great and they do great at ultra endurance events despite the higher intensity shorter workouts so how do you figure out like if somebody's listening to this and they're new to this they don't know which person they are and they're interested in getting involved in this world like how do you make that determination

well we can see it a lot on whether it's injuries and how they're responding to the workout what they're observing how they're progressing whether that's via testing or just seeing on the general workouts inputs that they're giving us. So, you know, just not feeling good. I seem to be getting sick or I mean, I'm sore. It's just not working. There's a lot of commentary that you can read through when people aren't responding to the workouts.

There should be phases where they're feeling great, where they're absorbing the workouts, where they're progressing, they can see and feel it. And when they're not over longer periods of time, something's off. And you know, we'll go through the usual checks of sleep and recovery and nutrition and so on. But if that's still not working, we start noticing that. Right, so you have kind of an open mind about different philosophies. You're not like, I'm a Maffetone person. It's got to be this way and this is the way that I coach, or whatever. Like, you're malleable.

That might be an exaggeration. That might be an exaggeration of people who know me. It's just, for me, the big thing is, again, healthy and injury-free. And in order to do that, we need to build that pyramid from the bottom. And so I have a lot of athletes that come to me. They send me their former plans and what they used to do, and they let me see their logs and so on. I don't even look. I know. I was like, wow. I say, we're starting from scratch. I need to know you did this first. And most of the time, that's aerobic training. For an ultra endurance event, remember, if they're getting ready for a marathon for runners which technically three hours is not really an ultra endurance event as crazy as that sounds

or faster and or a half ironman or olympic distance it's obviously a different training focus after some aerobic training but in most cases the athletes i'm working with are doing something longer and there i need to know that they first have the fitness, the aerobic capacity to do the volume well, respond to it, absorb it, come out of it healthy and ready to take on the next phase of training, which is then more specific to their event, whether that's a hilly ultra run, whether that's an Ironman that they want to race fast, whether that's, you know, an Ultraman, whether it, there's so many different events that we then take a look, okay, you have the base fitness. We know you can do the distance, the event, especially with you. We did, I think 80% of the distance over a weekend, right? Right. We did. Yeah. For for ultraman you had this thing that we would do each time where we would there were like three or four weekends in the like i don't

know six or eight weeks before ultraman where we would approximate the race like the race distance 70 80 90 and on a friday saturday sunday so we're simulating exactly like it so then you know you can do it like the confidence that you get from that alone was huge yeah and so then once we know you can do the distance and many people do this in iron man where they'll do an early season one they'll do pretty good nothing spectacular but then we can say okay you came out of it healthy fit you know you can do the distance now for our next one for the fall or late summer. How are we going to do it faster?

You know, and so that's when the specificity comes in. So what has changed? What's evolved? Because everything you're saying is that's the same. Yeah, well, I mean, I feel you got into coaching really from a performance perspective, like training elite athletes and pros and like high achieving amateurs. Right. And my sense is that that's evolved. And now you're you're dealing with a lot of people that are in it for the lifestyle as opposed to like hardcore type A Silicon Valley gunners. A lot less of those and a lot more lifestyle athletes for sure. And the joy there, of course, is having them embrace the healthier endurance lifestyle with regards to

what they were doing before, which was either not training or not as familiar or connected to their body, their nutrition, and how they're looking for longevity in the sport. But back to your question of what's changed, not much in regards to the approach, but more the actual health and injury-free approach, the progressing month to month, and the balancing feel with deliberate training. Before it was a lot more structured, and this is what we're doing,

these intervals are what you need to do. So now it's a lot more structured and this is what we're doing. These intervals are what you need to do. So now it's a lot more feel. It's become a lot more balanced with about 40% of the time feel training. And what was the impetus for that change or that evolution? Trusting the athlete that they know their body and that they're able to give me the insight and influence. It is, it is. But again, if we've progressed to a point that we can do that

type of training um that's the athlete then taking also a lot more responsibility on themselves that we're part of a team we're communicating and things are happening that they're excited and familiar with too and then therefore they can progress from that. So that's the fun aspect of it too, that the athlete becomes more educated and the joy that they're receiving from understanding their fitness. And the more that they can take personal ownership of it as opposed to just waiting for you to tell them what to do ultimately is going to, I think, empower them to want to continue.

Yes, and stay in it. Yeah, their kind of emotional investment in it. Yeah. And then lastly, I would say the mental game has become a bigger and bigger focus in this ultra-endurance world. Coaching mental skills, coaching adversity that happens on these i mean they're 10 12 24 30 hour days uh events right um and so a lot yeah it's all mental whether it's a hundred mile run anything beyond 45 miles it's it's just in your head um so how do you what do you do specifically to train people for that so a lot of that has to be on feel one. We do want to overcome adversity and training the days when things aren't going well, you know, the double flats or the stomach hurts, or, you know, you're not feeling it. Those are exactly the days that need to be embraced.

Those are our opportunities. Because on race day, my stomach hurts, I got a double flat, my legs are sore. You know, you're tapered, you're rested, but you're 10 miles into the bike and you're going, why are my legs achy and sore? All these sensations that we won't want to be familiar with and working mentally, especially on what you also experienced with regards to testing it on those weekends, that absolute certainty that you will do the event.

Once you've gotten that subconscious space of absolute certainty, because it seeps in real deep, knowing then that, okay, this is a moment of adversity, but I am still going to finish this race well. I have the fitness, I have the ability. So dealing it and processing it present and in the moment. And that's an opportunity you get in most training sessions. Taking advantage of my fatigue right now and saying, you know what, I'm the 10th interval in. How often do I get 10 intervals in and get to train this tired, this exhausted, and wanting to quit.

Now is when the game starts. Right. Everything else is just prefatory to that. You know what I mean? I think I remember you saying at times, if you're doing one of those super long runs or rides, like let's say you're doing an eight-hour ride, like seven hours of it is just so that you can experience that last eight hours yeah and we do that a lot there's no way around that you can't shortcut that yeah you can't in ultra marathons

and so on it's you know get the body tired first then the training begins you know and it's it sounds sick but you know you're 40 miles into a training run, and then those last 10 miles are where you sort of learn the most about your training. And do you do any work or coaching around, like, specific mindfulness techniques or meditation or other kind of mental practices that can… It depends on the athlete and what they need. But one thing I've been focusing on with a lot of athletes lately is knowing, well, let's say that differently. They know that they have the fitness to do the event. They know that they've progressed to do the event and achieve the goal times and the results that they want to. But for some reason, there's a gap between what their body can do and the validation they've gotten in training and how they're executing their race plan come game day and so it's the exercise and understanding and

working through if i were to take your head off your body for a true visual and put you know croweys jan ferdenos um some phenomenal, Scott Jurek, onto your body, what's the delta between what Crowey could do with your body? Not that you're going to do an Ironman winning time, but what could he do with the fitness that you've built and your body versus what you're doing with it? And that gap between those two, that's where we then identify, well, what is missing? What are we not executing on race day? How are we, how is that avatar moving ahead of you

on during the race with Crowey's head on your body versus your head on your own body? And where is that differentiating? So being able to squeeze out the performance and executing a race plan that we've come up with is the key. And so many athletes sabotage themselves on race day, realizing one or two little mistakes and boom, off on a tangent they go. Right, because when you're dealing with gigantic distances and so many hours, a little mental tweak is the difference can make could be the difference in hours oh yeah an ultimate in your ultimate performance yeah so fitness allows you to stay present through that and that absolute certainty i talked about but then also being 100 confident in your race plan and your race strategy for the day and knowing you've trained and practiced some of the things that can go wrong knowing what's in your control and not in your race plan and your race strategy for the day. And knowing you've trained and practiced some of the things that can go wrong,

knowing what's in your control and not in your control, having talked through that, having visualized that, that is very important. Visualization exercises and just getting that mental resilience going for race day is something that we do train now a lot more, and I work with a lot of athletes on. And so what does your athlete base look like right now? Are you doing, is it mostly like Ironman people?

Like you said, you have people doing all kinds of different things. Yeah. You're coaching like about, what, like 40 people at a time? Yeah, about 40 people. Can you kind of cap it at that? It depends. You know, there's events that people are are all geared towards and so then they'll drop off three or four of them and then you know sometimes i'll

be down to 35 athletes average attrition rate but the crazy thing is i mean and and i'd say see this as a compliment to that the coaching is working is I have so many athletes that have been with me for years and years and they take a couple years off and then I'll get an email saying hey I'm thinking about getting ready for this and you know and that's part of the joy of the coaching too is that no plan is ever the same even for the athlete it progresses every year you don't do the same thing year after year after oh I know it's six weeks out. I'm going to be doing this. No, that's not how I coach.

And so a lot of athletes also truly enjoy that curiosity of where are we going with this? How far are we going with this? What's he going to have me do next? So, and yeah, that's part of the fun too in progressing the athlete. And what about recovery? What's your perspective on sort of maximizing the body's ability to repair itself when you're not training? Yeah, sleep, sleep, and more sleep. I just did a podcast for my athletes.

I do a small podcast for my athletes, and the theme was... You know you're going to get... Now everyone's going to be like, where do I listen to it? You've got to put it on... He doesn't put it on iTunes. I know. Well, it originally started for my athletes, just a way to communicate with them. And I've already had a bunch of people bug me how to get access to it.

Now you're going to have to put it on iTunes. I know. I just... Do you have a name for it? What do you call it? I call it the weekly word pod blast. Yeah. And so the topic I just finished was recovery, timing your nutrition after your workouts properly,

that 30 to 40-minute window, as well as that three to four-hour post window, sleep and more sleep. A lot of my athletes that know me well know I sleep a lot, eight to nine hours a night in my big training. You know, I go to bed with my kids, eight and ten, and I wake up after my kids. But, you know, it keeps me healthy, keeps me injury-free,

keeps me progressing, and I'm a big believer in sleep. Good nutrition, a good diet of, you know unprocessed healthy foods um vegetables fruit you know all kinds of right you're laughing it's okay man i know i'm not gonna hold you no no no no no and and the funny thing is that's part of my evolution over the years too we've talked about it is my understanding and my embracing of my evolution over the years too. We've talked about it, is my understanding and my embracing and my actually applying the plant-based aspect

has grown dramatically too. Not that it was like roll your eyes before, but my brain knowing what I know about my body and how it's worked all those years, you know, to change something, to put unleaded into a diesel engine, you know, it's a slow progress right and you have to be very careful with it what is your perspective on on you know sort of diets of the month like

there's there's always a new you know tweak on like here's the ultimate way to lose weight and to fuel for performance and it seems right now there's a lot of uh interest and discussion about low carb slash you know ketotic diets for athletes like have you worked with athletes that are doing this do you have any experience with this like what's your perspective little experience with it um i would say my athletes they do check in with me with regards to these diets. And I say these diets because, once again, what works for people, certain people, will not work for everybody. So there's that general umbrella, right, of saying, okay, just because it works for this 20% of the population doesn't mean it works for 100% of the population. And it feels great and looks great for them, but might not work and look great and feel

great to others. Now throw into that, under that umbrella, endurance athletics. So the demands on the body are so different, so much higher that you're taking that 20% and making it 5% or 10%, right? And again, very careful. You don't want to risk something that you've been working toward for years in some cases, whether it's a multi-stage race or some swim from Cuba to Miami. I mean, athletes set these things up years in advance and to then change their diet

too dramatically prior is dangerous. But, you know, the fads, a lot of times they work great for four to six weeks short term, and you have some amazing results from it. But to me, in the ultra endurance world, it has to work for years. It has to show performance and be successful and have you feeling connected and alive and remaining healthy and injury free over a longer period of time. And so even on the low carb, higher fat aspect, you know, there's a time for that. But everybody is an individual for how they're responding to it what their training needs are where they are and how old they are you know we both know our diets are different from our 20s to our 40s can a body in its 40s withstand a low carb

higher fat diet better than a kid in his 20s playing football? Yes. Right? We're amazing creatures, and we're constantly adapting, but that doesn't mean it's, in my opinion, that it's the long-term, full perspective that it needs to stay that way for a couple years. Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I think one of the things, a key central core aspect of endurance training is trying to, like you said earlier, like create these efficiencies, right? How do you become super duper efficient, not only at movement, but at metabolizing fat for fuel in your aerobic zone?

When you're in your aerobic zone, fat is your fuel, right? Yes. zone fat is your fuel right yes so i'm always thinking about like well how much of that fat burning efficiency is a result of the specific type of training that i'm doing versus the foods that i'm eating and in my experience it seems to be more about the kind of training that i'm doing yeah because the like you know sort of the demands of your metabolism will dictate what type of fuel you're going to burn more than what is in your stomach. I mean, I'm not a physiologist. I'm not a doctor. I don't need it.

Based on N of one of myself. But part of the idea behind the low-carb diet is that by sort of starving your body of carbohydrates that you're then kind of compelling the body to burn more fat and utilize more fat and remember it's a primary fuel source in aerobic and ultra endurance but it's not the only right we need those carbs either way yeah so i mean kind of like beneath all of this you know it's sort of like i can't imagine not eating carbohydrates and being an athlete well and just think if somebody's successful doing that, more power to you. But I just, it's never been something I've been able to do. But think about not eating fruits and vegetables. Right.

Because they're primarily carbs, right? Like, that's the crazy thing. Like, if you think of how many carbs are in fruits and vegetables, you're still getting your carbs. So you can be very avoidant of, you know, meats, for example, or some high carb breads and so on. But you're still eating your fruits and vegetables. So you're still getting a healthy amount of carbs, as well as sugars in there and so on. You know, we all know fruit has a fair amount of sugar in it. So again, it's how your

body is responding, what you currently need, how your body is adapting to it. Nutrition, again, in my opinion, is very much like endurance coaching. You have to be working with somebody who knows what you need and how your day-to-day goes and the stresses and the adrenal aspects and everything that is part of this bigger puzzle nutrition and you know whether that's a natural path or certified nutritionist or you know somebody who is in tune with you and where you are in your stage of life and what your needs are from a training load from a travel load from a work-life load all those things it all ties in right what about your perspective on all the kind of fitness nutrition you know the gels and the bars and the the like neon blue drinks and all that kind of stuff that just you see everywhere at these races it's still, my opinions there are still quite strong, and I know they're not

applicable to everybody, but normal food is still the best thing to fuel the body, especially at these ultra endurance events where you're out there for 10, 12, 24 hours. You're going at a pace that your body can still process normal nutrition. But there's always the athlete that is not absorbing it. It sits in their gut, or they just don't have the taste for it after a while. We all know that you eat 10 Clif bars in a row in training. The 11th one is not going down. I was doing great in my Ironman,

and then at mile six in the marathon i started throwing up yeah exactly you had 25 gels yeah and and there's a huge industry component in the message what they're sending in triathlon and and in the ultra endurance running world too of you know you need to do these gels and that sugar and that carb and that you need protein. It's exactly again, you need to be connected with your body and listen to it. It will tell you so much. If you slow down and really embrace and stay present in your training and are there to listen to what your body's telling you,

it, it gives you all the answers you need from a nutrition standpoint, from a training standpoint. But we have to, that's a skill. It's, you know, you learn to listen to your body. And there's a balance between performance and overall general health, right? I mean, gels have their place.

Like if you're like hitting the wall and you're in a marathon, like you take a gel, it works. Oh know i wouldn't recommend commercial right but it's like here have a snickers you get grumpy when you're at this it's the gel right like it's effective you know in a performance context the question becomes like are you going to eat those every day in training like you want you don't want to do anything different on race day that you do in training, but how do you balance all of that processed crap, uh, in a way that isn't undermining, you know, your kind of long-term health? Well, there's race simulation days where you, where you definitely want to set it all up. But beyond that, you know, nutrition is the holy

grail of ultra endurance events, right? The fittest, best athletes have been derailed by nutrition, whether it's winning Ironman Kona or winning Western States. If you figure out your nutrition, that's really great because it works for about two or three more events, and then your needs again change. How many elite athletes have we all come across or seen or heard about that five years ago did one thing in their ultra endurance event and their body has changed and the needs have changed and their ability to absorb has changed and now they're doing something

completely different. And the conditions dictate a lot of that. I mean, how many athletes go out and win Ironmans all over the place and they go to Kona and just can't crack that nut. I mean, how many athletes go out and win Ironmans all over the place and they go to Kona and just can't crack that nut? Exactly. I mean, those stories are legend. I just did the podcast with Shalane Flanagan a couple weeks ago. I don't know if you saw her Olympic trials marathon where she – it was in Los Angeles. It was super hot. She'd never run a marathon in high heat, and she just had a really hard time.

high heat and she just had a really hard time you know for the first time in her career like fell apart and couldn't figure out the nutrition and had to like go to school to figure out how she was going to be able to perform in Rio and had to change everything yep and even then you're not positive right you don't know you're still going you're still yeah you're still going into an unknown and again that's a big aspect of, again, dealing with adversity on race day, knowing and keeping a good mind about you when that stomach does turn, or when you do realize that, you know, you haven't been drinking enough. You know, a little bit of a story of mine is, you know, last year, Ironman Kona. I was fortunate enough to finally win my age group. But you're always winning your age group.

No, no, no. I've been second and third and fourth. I pretty much know what every place feels like. But that elusive victory was still, hadn't happened. But I had lost 19 pounds in fluids. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, in kona and many ironmans they weigh you before you start for medical reasons although lately the argument is that doesn't really tell you that much but um and then they weighed me into the med tent and it was 19 pounds and i felt it all day i mean it was i was i was behind i knew i couldn't catch up. If I tried to catch up. Once you're behind. I would bloat myself. I'd be throwing up.

I would be running with a sloshy stomach. And, you know, I, I, but luckily I was able to stay present during that marathon, despite it being slow and things hurting and everything screaming at me because I knew why I knew what was going on. And I said, you know, this is the adversity. This is the point to go dark and just get to the finish line. And luckily it worked. But again, so the point there is, you know, use every opportunity to prepare yourself for what will go wrong.

You know, as I alluded to to before working with a couple of seals last summer um it started with a couple of guys at swim practice getting ready for buds um but then buds stand for it's um basic underwater demolition something um but they were um so a little bit of background the when you're going into SEALs or you're into BUDs especially, there's often alumni SEALs that are no longer SEALs, and they'll sort of work with new kids going in. This guy had been working in D.C. in the State Department doing some stuff, and so now he was sort of older going into it.

And so we were working together. And there, again, a lot of their quotes and a lot of their learnings is fascinating. You know, I've been actually reading up a lot about how they go about their training. But there again, despite all their strength and despite all their special training and all their abilities, fitness and keeping a clear mind and allowing the adversity of the day to not get to you is a key driver for them. And with some of the more advanced SEALs that I've worked with, a whopping two, let's not make this a bigger deal. They said, you know, because of my aerobic fitness, sure, I still can do all the strength work.

I can still do the Brazilian martial arts. I can still do all the power things that I needed to. But because I've increased my aerobic capacity, my fitness, when adversity strikes, I was less fatigued than others. I could make better decisions. I was more observant. And no SE CEO will ever admit they're tired. It just doesn't cross their vocabulary. And I can't stress that enough. I mean, it is amazing what they will put themselves through.

Right. So then how do you coach somebody who won't like tell you what they're really feeling? Because they'll tell me the positives. They'll tell me, wow, I noticed more. I see. You know, I'm more present. You got to read between the lines a little bit. Exactly. And it's a leadership question. And the average crybaby Ironman. Exactly. And so again, fitness, supreme fitness allows you to overcome adversity, whether it's in a race or in working with traders that just need to keep a clear mind when all hell's breaking loose. And again, just having the ability to stay on top of your own decision making, being

able to observe and to continuously take in information, that's fitness. That's mental fitness and that's physical fitness. Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean, that dovetails into mindfulness pretty well at the same time. The idea that it's the confidence that you get, but also just the presence of mind and that mind-body connection. When your body is fit and it can withstand stress, then you'll be able to mentally and emotionally weather whatever's coming at you and not be reactive, but be able to kind of, you know,

in the case of a SEAL, like make that decision that can literally be the difference between life and death. Yeah, yeah. And especially leaders for their men and observing and being able to make those critical decisions without fatigue being a factor. Those guys have supreme confidence in their abilities anyway. But just that little tiny edge of being a bit more tired is what you don't want. Right.

And so working with them on that different type of fitness has been awesome. That's really cool. It's been fun, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's got to keep you energized and excited. And, you know, just by way of background um you know you've been doing this for a very long time yeah like yeah you swam at an elite level throughout high school and college you competed in the olympics and swimming for germany that was was that 90 92 and 96 so two olympiads one as an alternate though okay so i watched So I watched. You were there. All right. I warmed up.

I warmed down. Yeah. Listen, man. You were there. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. And then kind of went right into triathlon and Ironman. Mm-hmm. Was a pro for many, many years.

Mm-hmm. I wouldn't say many, many years. How many years were you a pro? Three. Three years? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

You won Ironman Coeur d'Alene. Mm-hmm. Right. Did you win any other Ironmans? You won that couple of halves hawaii 70.3 right um escape from alcatraz and things like that but yeah the the victory line isn't that long but in each distance so i'm pretty happy about that yeah it's cool and then and then moved into being an age group athlete while you were coaching you've never

really retired from being an athlete. You've been an athlete consistently your entire life. Yes. So how do you maintain your enthusiasm, like your joy and your love and your interest in what you're doing without burning out? There's many answers to that. Of course, we're creatures of habit. It's been part of my life since I'm five years old um whether it was swimming or endurance athletics now you took a dark turn down a finance alley for five minutes exactly before you hightailed it back to be an athlete

i was like wait a moment what am i doing here but um so creature of habit. And then the adventures and the new challenges keep presenting themselves. Having done a 100-miler, my second one, two weeks ago. Right. So let's talk about that. Is that your second 100-miler? My first one was pretty flat. It was the Rocky Raccoon a couple years ago. And it's basically 520-mile loops, so pretty flat.

It's in Texas, right? Yeah, exactly. I have a friend who's done that one. And so I said to myself, I didn't want to do triathlon this year. I was going to take a break from Ironman after many, many years. And so I said, I want to find one of the hardest 100-milers now after Rocky Raccoon and having finished that successfully. So I did Wasatch 100 two and a half weeks ago yeah that's widely considered one of the most difficult ones you could possibly sign up for it was pretty hard yeah it was great until mile 67 and you know you run in this

spectacular environment up on this beautiful ridge line you know know, 10 up to 11,000 feet. I mean, it's gorgeous. And then, you know, you're at 67 miles, 100k about in, and then you're going into the night. It's 9pm, put your lights on, you get your warm clothes ready, because it's going to be 24, 25 degrees up there on the ridge, after being 75 and 80 most of the day. Harder to fall asleep on your feet when it's 24 degrees yeah you know sleep was never really i never really felt sleep deprived or it that it really hit me you're you're so on adrenaline and on your brain is on because then you're looking through that light in the middle of the night and your world is just this like two by two yard space in front of you and you're just

thinking don't fall don't fall off the ridge but um it was more just the terrain and the difficulty of it of that race late it was brutal right so what did you learn about yourself and what it means to do a race like that that perhaps you didn't uh didn't didn't know that didn't know? Well, that was part of the new challenge for me is my challenge is more mental now. I want us to know, I like going into that really dark space. And once there, I like foraging around. And unfortunately, I mean, in a good way,

it didn't happen at Wasatch 100. It never became super challenging where I had to overcome a lot. My fitness allowed me to sort of just work myself through that day pretty well. I never really hit a dark spot. But that's the challenge, and that's where I like to be, whether it's in training, you know, 50, 60-mile training runs where you're just not feeling it and just, all right. 50, 60-mile training runs. I know. I not feeling it and just 50 60 i know i went a little

bit overboard yeah um but yeah but those were the days that i wanted because i just it there's just something fundamentally raw and being in those places and just not wanting to continue and it's completely mental and i'm learning about myself i'm learning about my past i'm learning about so much inside me when you're that fatigued and everything's screaming at you physically to stop but mentally you know to keep going and so there's something happening there that's part of my latest motivation um that's the heart of it man that is the that's the beautiful for me the beautiful allure of those kind of crazy events because it strips you down to the rawest essence of who you are and you have to confront yourself in a way that you know short of i don't know doing ayahuasca or something like

that you're just not going to get to yeah And there's a purity to it. There is. And to sound a little cliche, in this day and age of so many inputs on a daily basis, whether it's technology, whether it's family, whether it's work, whether it's just everything's always coming at us, it takes longer and longer to let go into that space. And longer into, I've noticed, into training runs where it's like, well, you know, when am I finally just going to clear my mind,

but you can't look for it. It just happens. And once there, it's not like you're going, Oh, thank you. This is great. Cause usually there's a little bit of a physical price for that,

but, um, it does set you up and, and allows you to think clearly and come out of those runs and those moments reinvigorated, understanding yourself, your surroundings, your loved ones completely differently. I think there's this idea with a lot of people that whether it's Ironman or a 50-mile run or a 100-mile run or 135-mile run or whatever it is, or it's 50 Ironmans in 50 states in 50 days, that these things are all interchangeable.

Once you're an ultra-endurance athlete, you can just tap in and out of all of these things. But there's a huge difference between doing an Ironman and running a 100-mile run. There's a huge difference between a 50-mile run and a 100-mile run. Absolutely. And so there's two things that you're saying there. One that I would comment on is there is the difference of what's happening. Ironman, in the meantime, has become a race. Many, many, many athletes just race it. They have the ability and the fitness and the knowledge and the coaching and the courses to really race it and it's crazy it's

tactical yeah not just you against yourself and the course but you versus the other person exactly surges and racing truly racing um and you don't do that yet in a hundred mile race i mean even the guys winning western states although that's even that's gotten yeah Yeah, in Western states. In Western states this year. It's crazy. Just hit the rivet and hold. And whoever holds the longest doesn't get lost. Yeah, who was that guy who was way out in front and looked like he was going to win it? Yeah, and he missed a ribbon. And he went straight instead of a left turn into this smaller little path. And he was on course record.

I forget his last name but jim and you know again amazing athletes are coming into the ultra endurance spectrum but the second thing that regarding what you just said there is a level of lifestyle fitness that i like to call it and that is that us as masters athletes um have a level of endurance fitness, not only from a health perspective, but that we can embrace challenges that come up. Like we have a mutual friend in Santa Monica. He was bored with all the ultra races or Ironmans.

And, you know, this thing came up to run once around Kilimanjaro, right? It was five days and a variety of things. And these incredible farms up there, but some pretty gnarly stuff. And his fitness that he had built over the years allowed him within a matter of six weeks to be able to do that event at altitude. You know, I think it was 100K a day,

something like that. And do that, you know, just to be able to say you know what i woke up i decided to do that race i adjusted my training for a few weeks nothing major and i did it and that's what i call that life fitness where you can just take on the challenges that were really cool and make you feel alive and are unique and just do it. Yeah, so in other words, with a certain number of years and level of training, you raise your floor so high that then you can chase different ceilings.

You can be flexible with that, which is pretty cool. And experience, and you really use your fitness to live, right? I mean, when else do you get a chance to run around Kilimanjaro? Or another athlete of mine he currently can't run or even bike so he decided to do a 10 mile ocean swim he's not a swimmer and he's probably going to listen to this and go no i'm not a swimmer i'm trying to become a swimmer but you know but it was an amazing event he was successful successful at it. He loved it. He's addicted to it now and wants to swim more. And so life fitness to just take on those incredibly invigorating experiences.

What do you do when you yourself just can't get out of bed? Like you've got to have those days where you're like, I'm just not up for it, man. I've been doing this since I was six years old. Like, I'm sleeping in. I know I got this race, but, you know, I just, ugh, seriously.

Rich, it doesn't happen. Never happens. Everybody who knows me is laughing right now. You are a robot. In that respect, I have certain rules. I don't get up for morning swim practice anymore like that's one thing if it's dark and it's not sun i can't do that and

i can't swim in an indoor pool yeah very rarely do i i don't can't even remember the last time i must have been on the road if i was swimming indoors but i do not get up when it's dark to swim there's just fundamentally can no longer do that so yes it triggers like this crazy memory and that cold and and here my athletes are probably going really and you make us get up every morning and swim but i think i put in my years but now i i get so excited about that daily progress i have a little quote on my wall. A lot of my athletes know this. It just says, what have you done today, today in capital letters, to come closer to achieving your goals? There's something you can do every day to make you a better athlete.

So for you, the motivation is internal. You're not driven by any externalities. There's no external pressures or... This last year, the Kona, getting that monkey off my back, it was pretty important to me. And it was just like a crazed dog, just running towards that finish line. And it was a huge relief to finally have gotten that. But no, the 100-mile run a few weeks ago, it wasn't about a place.

It was about the adventure. 100-mile runs also are really fun on a side note is because you have crew so a bunch of my friends flew in i have a bunch of buddies in park city and we had a fantastic fun weekend sure i ran 100 miles on the side are those endurance athlete friends or just just buddies yeah some of them they were getting involved in all of them i bet they had no idea no no no they they've all done this stuff they're all endurance athlete friends yeah um i'm trying to think if anybody in there no nobody in there was not familiar hasn't done iron man or something similar so but so that's really rewarding um and just you know it it it's part of who I am. I love being fit, being connected, and staying healthy.

Does that make you frustrated, though, when you have athletes who do have run into those kinds of issues because it's just not part of your makeup? I think I've become more patient with them. Yes, I understand it. You are a buyer beware coach yeah you know like what i always say when people are like i want to talk to chris can you get me in touch with chris i'm like all right he's he'll he's an amazing coach but if you're looking for a pat on the back no and an attaboy he's not your man no no that's not me it's yeah and you know a funny thing is every now and then i i give out praise like that and then people

are like oh my god so i know i've worked on improving that sorry i mean that's one of those things um yeah with age you're getting soft yeah no well it's just having more examples of actually the other way around of people really really caring and trying hard to make it all work and then, you know, failing. Right. And so understanding that they're trying and they're not able to, whether it's work, whether it's family, whether it's injury. So they want so much and to not be able to achieve it is more has more become a compassion aspect and an i don't know about empathy yeah that's a big word that's a big word what are the what are the biggest common mistakes that you see in the athletes that you coach or

maybe not just the athletes you coach but when you go in the athletes that you coach or maybe not just the athletes you coach but when you go to these events and you observe yeah like you're going to kona you know in a couple days right um when you go to kona and you see all these athletes gearing up for iron man you're just sort of taking it all in the circus well they're at the event already so i mean yeah like what is you know what do you what are things that like people who are listening who maybe they've done a couple races maybe they've done an ironman i don't know um but things that you just go well it applies actually across all spectrums of athletics and in a cliche way across in life too um you know, not training with an outcome in mind is one of the biggest aspects. A lot of people just work out, they go out, they're doing the motions. And while that's good in the beginning,

you know, you are getting fitter if you just do the swim, the bike, the run, or just the run, or so on. But eventually, you get to a point where you're no longer improving. And there's no deliberate training happening. You know, there's no deliberate training happening. There's no outcome in mind, and that's very important, that training with intent. Another thing is the classic piece that we spoke about, I bet you, last time, and that is not training hard enough on hard days and not training easy enough on easy days. Not enough changes in speed. Another thing I find with a lot of athletes these days, and let me just qualify athletes. To me, an athlete is not some elite athlete that has the results or achieved certain times or placings. Having, being an athlete is just a mindset. It's your ability

to think about what you're doing, how to be successful, how you're progressing, and setting yourself up for the best next workout, the next day, today, whatever. And so even if you're a beginner, or you're a world class athlete, you're thinking the same way. What am I doing now to improve myself? So I think one of the things, another thing that athletes overlook or make mistakes with is that they take too much time off in the off season. So they have these goals, they have these endeavors that they want to take on this coming season, and then they take off a lot of time in the winter and you know it takes them six eight twelve weeks just to get back to par fitness right and the older you get the longer it takes exactly so you get into this early summer finally getting back to fitness you had late the previous summer and you're expecting a different

outcome of your results by doing the same cycle of training. So understanding what am I doing in order to maintain some sort of connection to that fitness? No, you don't have to always be completely on it, but finding an activity, finding some training cycle that keeps you close to par, your best fitness, so that two, three weeks of good training puts you almost right back at it. Right. One of the things that I always see

and that I catch myself in is wanting to always train my strengths and overlook my weaknesses. Yeah. There's different theories on that, especially being a triathlon coach. And you would understand this as a swimmer. There is a lot of wasted time for triathletes practicing swimming.

It's just not a good use of your time. No matter how much you swim, you're not going to be a 53 Ironman swimmer or, you know, a 23 half Ironman swimmer. You can spend all the time and you want in the pool, you'll maybe gain in the next six months, two, three, four minutes. Whereas if you spent that time from logistics of getting to the pool and that training time and getting home and so on, and you spent that biking and running, you're probably better off.

You'll find a half an hour. Right. It's easy for you as a swimmer and myself as a swimmer to say that. It's harder to hear that when you're somebody who's afraid of swimming or doesn't have that much experience and feels like they have a lot of room for improvement. But the truth of the matter is, is that in triathlon, the swimming is so de minimis, right? But the other mistake that I see people, that I see triathletes making, triathletes that don't have a robust swimming background, is they go to the pool and they're so focused on getting... Yardage in.

Getting the yardage in, getting the volume in, and they just refuse to work on stroke. And you can look at their stroke and you're like, dude, if you took a month off and just did drills and got your stroke sorted out right. Catch-up freestyle over and over and over again. You would have a quantum leap in improvement, but that requires a leap of faith and some trust.

And they're so afraid of like not being fit, you know, that they can't allow themselves that type of focus. Looking for a certain yardage and not thinking about, again, what we said, not training with a workout outcome in mind. What is it I want to gain today versus just swimming laps in the pool, continuing to reinforce bad habits. So yeah, you're totally right. The other thing I find is that athletes often sign up for events that are not realistic in their current lifestyle. And that is whether it's a 100-mile run and they realize a couple weeks in that that training is just not going to work.

They don't have the hours. They don't have the job. They don't have the family to support that. That bet that they made with their buddy at the bar. Hitting enter too early. Enthusiasm around that starting to wane quickly. And it's frustrating. That bet that they made with their buddy at the bar, you know, hitting enter too early. Enthusiasm around that starting to wane quickly. And it's frustrating.

It creates a lot of anxiety. And then you either give up or you're only a shell of yourself trying to keep up with the training. So I think that's a very important aspect. Before you sign up for the event, know more about the training and what time commitment or what your own expectations might be from are you you're just finishing which is totally fine um but know that and so when you have anxiety about the workouts or about how you're going to get it done you can remember remind yourself oh wait a moment this is just the finish this isn't for some, you know, crazy result. Mm-hmm. What about cross-training, you know, the gym, weight room, strength training,

you know, things that triathletes and runners don't like to think about too much? Yeah, it's actually gotten a lot better. Cross-training, CrossFit even, all helpful. You know, again, what works for the body? How is it progressing? How is it adapting? Is it helping you? You should be seeing results within six to eight weeks of doing the proper type of strength work.

I'm a big believer in body weight strength. Actually, I've never done any strength work in my entire life. But you believe in it. But I am supportive of it, whether it's Pilates, yoga, just being connected again with your body and working on the weak spots in order to do that. I know I'm probably the worst example on all this because I've been, again, super fortunate.

I've never been injured in my life. I've been able to work through nutrition and all this sports and never had any type of real injuries it's just been i've been lucky and i've been doing this a long time so but you also have never like you don't take the winter off and you don't give your body that period of time to atrophy and certain muscles get weaker than others like you've just you've been on you've literally been like you know applying that pressure consistently yes yes i've never been very far away from good fitness um yeah but i mean i also feel like i know myself very well i know what works i know what i need i know my weaknesses i know you know

what i need to work on and whether again whether it's the sleep and the recovery, the nutrition, I do. My only strength as a qualifier is I do stretch cords. I love doing stretch cords. It keeps the motion and keeps me connected. And to me, it works. It's not for everybody. But for me, that's my strength and my core and my connection. I think the core work.

Like you gave me that core workout handout, like when we first started working together. And when I do, I hate doing it. I absolutely hate it. Like you have to put a gun to my head to make me do it yeah but when i actually do do it and i do it consistently you know within like six or eight weeks of consistent practice the difference in how i feel like in my form is super dramatic it's remarkable yeah the amount of power that i can generate in my swim stroke the the ability to maintain my form running when you start to get tired uh and just even generate generating power on the bike like you can feel. It makes a big difference.

Everything comes from the core in a big way. And we're fortunate as swimmers to have a pretty strong core in general because it ties into so much of our swimming. But having maintained that and working with it has been part of the key driver to successfully running without injury and cycling all those years without injury. So we reconnected about, I don't know, a couple months ago. I reached out to you.

I can't remember if you reached out to me to check in or I reached out to you and I was like, I think I got to get back into this. It's been a couple years. What have you been doing since? I've been sitting around doing nothing. You're busy. I'm very busy, but like, everybody's busy.

Yeah. You know what I mean? That's a good point. I think for me, you know, I got into ultra endurance sports less to see how I would measure up against other people and more as an experiment in self-discovery. Like there were certain things I needed to work out about who I was and what I wanted to do with my time

on this planet Earth and all that kind of stuff. And we talked about that dark place that you get to where you're stripped away. And I needed that and I crave that. And I needed that, and I crave that, and I got that. And I was able to figure out a lot as a result of that journey. And so I feel like I've answered a lot of those questions for myself. Now, that work's never done. I mean, you can always continue to evolve and grow. But I feel like I got to a place where I had a better sense of what I wanted

to do with myself. And then I began to get to work doing that. And as a result of that, my life has changed in dramatic ways. And I've been blessed to have these amazing opportunities where I have the coolest job in the world because it involves sitting down with people like you and talking to them and sharing that. And a lot of the motivation that got me out of bed to put in those hours and do that difficult work that you were, you know, that you were, the program that you were giving me has been supplanted and replaced with trying to help other people, which is great.

But it's also been a convenient excuse to be less rigorous about my own fitness protocol. So I haven't raced since 2011. And I feel it. It's like I want to feel fit like that again. And I don't have a race that I can orient my whole life around. And my life's a lot busier than it was back then. around and my life's a lot busier than it was back then so for me um the challenge is trying to find a goal that excites me and to prepare for that in a way that works within the construct of how my life currently functions so you're like every working athlete in the world right like there's

nothing they have a full-time job, and they're looking for something that will motivate them in order to overcome the challenges of day-to-day and reach a spot within them that has meaning. Yeah. So that's the search right now. Yeah. We took a stab at it and then i went to

italy and it all fell apart i've been putting the pieces back together so that for me lately i get up and i kind of do whatever i feel like doing i'm traveling a lot so that generally involves running um but i don't like running every day like even when we were training for ultraman i never ran two days in a row we do those double run days on Tuesdays, but it was maybe three or four runs a week. And by spacing out the runs, I actually progressed more quickly. And now when I'm traveling and I'm just running all the time, I just feel tired. And I feel like it's stalling my ability to progress. Well, it's hard.

I'm doing this in a vacuum and I'm just doing it haphazardly, and then I start to feel, oh, my knee doesn't feel good, or this is not working for me. On the one hand, you're activating certain things, which feels really good because you get in a workout, but on the other hand, you're activating certain things that need attention and haven't been built properly or been taken care of properly. you know, need attention and haven't been built properly or been taken care of properly. The danger there is trying to reconnect with what it felt like in 2010. Right. It's that idea of training where you're at as opposed to training where you think you should be or once were. Once were, exactly. And we all have these visions of especially when we hit enter on a race

um this is how i'm going to train and this is how i'm going to focus on it and this is how much time i'll have and it never happens like that and it usually when digging deeper i find that the athlete is thinking back to before they had a family and it was just them right it's like wait a moment you have a lot more responsibilities now. Yeah, but if I live like Ted Kaczynski in a hut in the woods, it would be awesome. I'm going to win that thing. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, we need to find you something.

We've talked a little bit also about, you know, who you are and the message that you've created. And I think it's important to realize that you have gone and grown beyond that. And you're so much more than just a plant-based endurance athlete now. I think you're more of an advocate. You're bringing people into the podcast that are expanding the horizons of so many people listening to it, learning, making them curious, and at least giving them tidbits of information to make them a better person, fitness, health, variety of aspects, food industry. So it's not about addressing any of those aspects of who you once were. But I also think that a lot of people really, really look up to you

for having been able to successfully do what you did back then. Because that was the preface of all this, right? Of course. The book and overcoming and being able to describe that and just think of your knowledge today of all the things and people you've spoken to over the years and how you've grown to then disseminate a completely different you having gone through that ultra endurance experience.

I think a lot of people would be curious about that. Second book right there. Yeah, I know. The thing is, this is what I grapple with, right? Well, the thing is, this is what I grapple with, right? Like, I don't have the bandwidth to go back and train for Ultraman the way that I did in 2009, right? Because if I do that, well, I could. It's a choice, right? But then there's no podcast.

There's no, like, all these other things have to go away because there's only 24 hours in the day, right? So, what's the best? For me, it's always, it's an equation of what's the best way to serve the most people in the most effective way, right? You know, it has been the podcast and writing books and traveling to give talks and all of that. At some point, you know, I turned 30 in a couple, or 30, I turn 30. Yeah, I wish, right? I turn 50 in a couple weeks. And there's something about being 50. Maybe a great way to carry this message is to do another event as a 50-year-old and to see what that looks like and to be transparent about that journey. But to do it in a way where I'm not going into it i'm not like throwing everything out so that i can focus on a performance goal it has to function fluidly so that the other aspects

of my life are in balance and don't suffer so that i can write books and do the podcast well you wouldn't be successful as you are today without those two you know your life your family being part of that. And like you said, that's not different than anyone else. Yeah. And your understanding of it is completely different. Right. But I also think what you just said, serving many, I think also serving yourself could

be of benefit to many. Yeah. Right. Because what you observe, what you'll learn, how you reapply yourself, and from a diet aspect, from your knowledge aspect, to just going through the observations again at this stage of your life would be incredibly valuable to many people. And so your serving yourself would serve many.

Yeah, it's that kind of Zen idea that the way to be the best servant is to make sure you're taking care of yourself first. And it's that ironic thing, like, oh, I'm in wellness, but, like, I'm spending all my time helping other people get well and not paying attention to my own wellness. Not that I, you know. No, you're not unhealthy. I don't want to, I'm not going to sign, I'm not going to go do Ultraman unless I can toe the line and know that I put everything and my power into getting the best performance out of me. But you've been there.

And that's just not a reality. You've been there and you've done that. That's not a reality so so for me it's about growing past that and that's i think that's the hurdle that i gotta jump over because i've never been the guy who just wants to show up and run a bunch of 10ks and and marathons and be you know kind of like a middle packer guy high-fiving everybody like it's it's never been part of who i am but maybe it should be you know there's there's no there's no judgment on that at all. It just has never been how I've approached it in the past. And I think I've been waiting to get struck by lightning with some race or challenge that's gonna give me that juice, that level of excitement that Ultraman

and Epic Five gave me. But maybe I need to re-examine and rethink that relationship as well because it doesn't have to be an obsession nor does it have to be shouldn't be actually crazy epic yeah right otherwise you're waiting forever you know everybody's upping the ante it's like it's there's always going to be somebody who's going to do something crazier and harder and longer and and all of that and if you want to play in that sandbox, then you really do have to marginalize everything else in your life to accomplish that. And that's just not something I'm going to do.

But I think we can be creative in finding something that, even if, like you did in the past, create your own event, where it's not a question of a performance result. It's a completion and a message result and the process. Remember, like you've always said, and many of us always say, it's the journey of getting ready for that event. Of course. And I think for me it's also important that the event,

I like the idea of coming up with your own kind of self-styled adventure, because that provides the opportunity to bring the message into it, to make the DNA of the event and the message be indistinguishable from one and the other. to be this dualistic thing where it's like, oh, I'm either training for this race or I'm doing the podcast way over here. If there's a way to have them be the same thing, like how can I carry this message that I'm putting out and make that part of whatever this adventure is, like whether it's a documentary or you're running from point A to point B and you're stopping at schools or going to farms and meeting with people or whatever.

So it's an integrated experience that goes beyond athleticism. Yeah, endurance can be defined in a variety of ways, right? Like it doesn't have to be a sports-related endurance. Life is the ultimate ultra-endurance event. There we go. There it is. There it is. And I have to take ownership of it i can't wait for you to call me and say i've got the thing for you and i know you're waiting for me to call you and so we've been at this impasse so this podcast is a way of of trying to break

through that and create some accountability not just with you but you know publicly as well so i don't have the answers to that yet, but I'm going to hold myself accountable to figure that out soon. That would be great. It would be great. It would be really great to work with you again. And I think beyond just the expertise and the wisdom and the knowledge and the program and all of that, having that accountability is so huge.

Just filling out those workout logs knowing that you're going to look at it well the exchange of ideas you don't care it's like but like knowing he's going to see it so yeah that that thing like keeps me on track in a way that i've proven to myself time and time again uh i haven't been able to do on my own and i think that's a very human thing yeah and and the relationship between coach, athlete, athlete, coach, friends, where, you know, you take on this endeavor and this growth and this progress together and getting to know yourself better and better again as an athlete. And just that invigorating, connected feeling of, wow, there it is. That's part of who I am.

It hasn't been around for a couple years, but now. There's that guy. There's that guy, exactly. There's that guy. Let's see. I don't know. I'm open to ideas. Well, I've talked about swimming for you,

just because it's something that you know how to do at a very high level so maybe there's something there with regards to swimming and endurance event um not in the pool yeah like you just scared me for a minute because as as you know like being a swimmer the idea of of just swimming. Yeah, it's hard. I don't know if I'm down for that. No, we'll build fitness in a variety of ways. Okay. Yeah. We'll figure it out.

I don't know what it's going to be. But the truth remains, which is the prize goes to the guy that slows down the least. Yeah. And I'm just trying not to slow down. Even in swimming. You know, that's true, right? Cool, man. So we did it. Yeah. How do you feel? Good. Yeah. And I'm just trying not to swim now. Even in swimming. You know, that's true, right? Cool, man. So we did it.

Yeah. How do you feel? Good. Good. Another episode. Did we talk about everything? Well, you know, I could always talk about a few more things. We could go.

Yeah. Well, you're going to Kona in a couple days, right? Yeah. Any big Kona predictions? No, I stay out of that world. I don't pay enough attention to the front of the pack. I don't even know anything about it anymore. I mean, I know there's some phenomenal athletes up there, and a out of that world. I don't pay enough attention to the front of the pack. I don't know anything about it anymore. I mean, I know there's some phenomenal athletes up there,

and a variety of them could win it, but there's some heavy favorites. So it'll be fun to watch it. I mean, how many times have I been there to watch? Not a lot. You're going just to watch. Just to watch. I don't even have an athlete racing. That's crazy.

Yeah, it's crazy. After so many years, but years where I had 22, 23 athletes, that was a little busy, including myself racing. But this year, no, going to support a few friends, going to meet a few people in the industry, and then take in the race and come home. And what's the next challenge for you? Yeah, that's still open.

We're trying to determine if i'm going to put in for the western states lottery but there's a very small chance of getting in it's like 4.7 percent so how did you how did you place out at wasatch um 23rd or 24th and you don't think you'll get into western states um do i work um no it's not a question of your time or your ability it's it's truly a lottery yeah it's a pretty highly desirable event and sure there's some races where you if you get top three you're automatically qualified or stuff like that but i'm not at that level right and um do i think i could do well at western states yes i think actually it's your kind of terrain yeah yeah and after doing wasatch and sort of learning a lot more about myself versus a flat race and how i can probably do it better i mean

all this you just learn you learn you learn you start thinking you start going um but you know yeah so a respectable finish yeah but that would be a a lottery win if i get in this year otherwise i'll probably do a couple of ultras 50 milers and then there's some adventures still out there bad water not interested no too much pavement uh too much pavement it's pretty gnarly it's it's that's a that's a whole different animal that i won't even attempt to think I'm part of. I crewed for that race one year. I know. I remember. I saw a lot of suffering.

There's an Ultraman bug in me. I think that's your race. Yeah. You would dominate. A few people have commented on that. I can't believe that you haven't done it yet. It's wide open right now. It is.

I sort of like running um the cycling i'm not that intimidated by and i know how to swim so but you know it's i want to do it with my kids i want to have them crew i want to have them older and really be part of it um not that i'll get any better by then as we're getting older but you know i think i can hold on to some good fitness for a few more years i think you would walk away with that race i know a few people have tried that um whether it's the hillary buscays and so on but um yeah it's it's a curiosity and you know of course the training for it and getting deep into that would be fun too but yeah so that's a curiosity and you know of course the training for it and getting deep into that would be fun too but yeah so that's a bug um but yeah nothing nothing too scheduled

so uh let's end this with one last question which is uh if you if you had some words of wisdom to the guy or the woman out there who's listening, who's maybe having trouble getting off the couch, but is interested in perhaps dipping their toe into this world. Maybe they've never run before. Maybe they're getting ready for their first big intimidating race. Like what are the, you know, what are some doable practical tips that you could give somebody to get started? The first thing is always, always a little something every day. Get a little something started every day, whether that's 20 minutes, whether that's 30 minutes,

whether that's an hour, and progress. Just gradual progression. A lot of us are too focused on perfection. There's a training plan. I missed two or three workouts, therefore I'm failing. That is not how it works. You did seven out of 10. Great. Next week, let's do seven out of 10 again, maybe even eight. Progress, not perfection. You're always the guy who says, you know, if you miss that workout, it's gone. It's vanished into

the air. You don't go and then try to make it up and do two workouts the next day like that's that's a bit just keep moving forward always moving forward how am i progressing as a person as an athlete tomorrow better than today and so getting up off that couch it's just about doing a little something better fitness wise today than i did yesterday whether it's i walked to work i walked to the subway i rode my bike or anything to just make you a little tiny bit fitter healthier than yesterday it's good talking to you chris yeah good to catch up yeah yeah okay you want to keep talking you got anything i say? I live for this stuff. We'll do it again soon.

Yeah, I can talk about this stuff all day. Oh, me too. And we're both passionate about it. That's what makes this stuff easy. It's impacting people on a daily basis, even just one person, to have a better understanding of health, nutrition, fitness, and just getting them into a better place. It's the key, man.

It's the key to unlocking so much more than just, oh, I need to lose a few pounds. If you really want to tap into a deeper understanding of who you are and what makes you tick, this is the way that I did it with your guidance. And I want everybody to have their version of that experience it's a great way to live man it's a great lifestyle and it's fun it's fun I mean that's the thing remember the why you're doing it why is because there's joy in it there's fun in it it makes you feel alive and yes there's hurdles to overcome it's hard in the beginning to get that fitness, to feel that alive.

But there's an incredible reward at the end of that. And that is health, longevity, and just feeling connected with this wonderful, wonderful tool we've been given called our bodies. The reward isn't at the end. The reward is as you go, right? And it's that idea of enjoying the process. You know, it's so cliche and silly to say it, but, you know, it is the journey. It's not about your time when you cross the finish line or what place you get or any of that stuff. And not look at it like it's burdensome or something to be dreaded, but rather to be embraced and enjoyed like you said. It's discovery.

It's discovery. Learning who you are as an athlete, as a person, as a human being, because you have this body. And just living in it, with it, in harmony, and living with it longer. That's the key, right? Yeah, absolutely, man. So let's figure this out. Yeah, let's find an event. Find some kind of challenge and make it happen, man.

Yeah, that'd be great. All right, dude. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. If people are digging on you, the best way to track you down and find you, you're at AIMPcoach on Twitter, but your tweeting is infrequent.

Yes, infrequent, yeah. I would say. And how else should people get in touch with you? The website? The website, AIMPcoaching.com, AIMPcoaching.com. Yeah, or I'm always Chris at AIMP Coaching. I have a lot of people that email me at chrisataymcoaching.com, just with questions, just, hey, I don't really have this coaching thing.

I'm not looking to be an athlete, but I was wondering what you think of this. And absolutely fire away. I never hesitate or mind working with people to just get them moving forward. I love it, man. Yeah. Excellent. Wow, I just had a final thought that I was going to say, and I just completely spaced on it.

I don't know what happened, but cool, man. Well, thanks so much. I appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you for having me. Let's do it again soon, dude. Yeah. All right. All right. Peace. Plants. man well thanks so much i appreciate your time thank you for having me let's do it again soon dude yeah all right all right peace plants all right i hope you guys enjoyed that as always please make a point of checking out the show notes at richroll.com on the episode page lots of links and resources to take your education beyond the earbuds. Thank you for sharing the show with your friends and on social media,

for leaving a review on iTunes, for subscribing, of course, as I said earlier. And also, mad love to everybody who has made a habit of always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. Huge help to us. We appreciate it. And also to those that have gone the extra mile and supported us on Patreon. You can find the Amazon banner ad and the Patreon banner ad on any episode page on my website, richroll.com. Also, if you haven't done so already, you can subscribe to my weekly

email. It's called Roll Call. It's free. It's short. Just five or six tips, tools, resources, a list of documentaries, books, articles, products, things I've come across over the last week that I've enjoyed or that have inspired me or found useful. Totally free. Never going to spam you. You can sign up on my website. There's plenty of places to enter your email to subscribe. Also, as always, go to richroll.com for all your swag and merch needs. We've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and the Plant Power Way. We've got t-shirts. We've got tech tees. We've got all

kinds of cool stuff. Big love to Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production on this week's show. As always, Sean Patterson for his wizardry on graphics. Thank you, Chris Swan, for additional production assistance and for help compiling the show notes and theme music by Anna Lemma. Be well, exude love, walk with integrity,

embrace your fellow man, and I'll see you back here soon. Peace. Plants. planets. Thank you.