The Rich Roll Podcast - Coaches' Corner: Working Out And Working In

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Working out offers a healthy path towards self-actualization. But it can also be used to avoid ‘working in’, perpetuating denial of that which must be confronted. What’s the difference between the two? Ask Chris Hauth + Caroline Burckle and they’ll both agree: the answer is intention. Over the last few years, it’s been a tradition to host periodic performance fitness deep dives with my long-time coach, Olympian, former professional triathlete, and fellow endurance fanatic Chris Hauth in a series erstwhile referred to as Coach’s Corner. Unfortunately, the pandemic derailed the regularity of this institution, our last observance of this sacred ritual conducted exactly one year ago on Zoom. In apologetic atonement for this grievous oversight, today we restore balance to the Universe, graced with the presence of not one but two Olympians because Chris and myself are joined by Caroline Burckle—an audience favorite many of you will fondly recall from RRP #565 this past December. For those new to the show, Chris is a sub-9 hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic Swimmer, a veteran of many an ultra-endurance challenge, my ÖTILLÖ Swimrun World Championship teammate, and one of the world’s most respected endurance coaches. Caroline (Burks) is a former swimmer & Olympic medalist with 23 All American titles, 2 NCAA individual victories & NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year accolades to her name. She runs RISE, a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young elite athletes for support and guidance. This is a super fun round table discussion on how to bring purpose and intention to our strength and endurance goals. It’s about how to create opportunities for personal growth, resilience, and the adaptability that athletic performance and this pandemic present and demand. It’s about the power of self-curated adventures in lieu of formal competition. It’s about what sport can teach us about patience, self-love, and discipline. And it’s about showing up and doing not only the physical work but also the internal work. In other words, it’s not just about working out. It’s also about working in. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll595 Apple Podcasts: bit.ly/rrpitunes Chris & Caroline are two of my favorite people. But the combo is over the top. This union is so charmed, what was once dubbed Coach’s Corner is now rebranded as Coaches’ Corner. Peace + Plants, Rich

The training is a scaffolding. What happens inside that scaffolding is unique to everybody. I might be doing a lot of mental work. Other people might be doing physical work. Other people are doing spiritual work. The training sets up the opportunity every day to spend time with yourself. And you might not want to go in that day. You might just sort of, you know, do a little paint job.

But other days you're like knocking down walls and you are doing some serious work inside and the tears come or the aha moment comes and you're like, wow, I hadn't realized how badly I'm avoiding. But again, I think it's important that curiosity sets up the training, the scaffolding so that you have an opportunity every day or every few days if you're not training every day to sort of do that working in and working out. For sure. And I'm going to throw another thought in here.

The power of what people experience through their bodies that they're not listening to, those things tell me what I'm avoiding. So that can be a cue into kind of what's happening. And I think there's a lot of intellectual athletes and then there's a lot of somatic and sensory athletes. And I think speaking to both in this space, like if I can speak to the sensory side where it's like you feel something off, don't ignore that. Tap into that and go into that and

understand where am I sitting right now? Am I avoiding or am I actually doing something because I want to? Or what is my why? Back to that question again. I think a lot of people use that as information and it is a powerful tool that I think we forget and we quickly try to jump to the mind and what it is that we just know how to do and what we've heard and like what other people are doing. So really getting to know ourselves because like what works for one person

may not work for the other. That's Chris Houth and Caroline Burkle. And this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, citizens? Welcome to the podcast. I am the guy behind it. So over the last few years, as most of you know,

I've had a kind of tradition here of hosting periodic performance fitness deep dives. And I've been doing this with my longtime coach, Olympian, former professional triathlete and fellow endurance fanatic, Chris Howth. It's a series, a popular one at that, that we have erstwhile referred to as Coach's Corner. Unfortunately, I permitted the pandemic to kind of upend this institution.

In fact, our last observance of this sacred ritual was essentially a year ago in April of 2020, conducted on Zoom. However, in apologetic atonement for this grievous oversight, today we restore balance to the universe. And we do it in high fashion, I might add, graced with the presence of not one, but two Olympians, because Chris and myself are joined by Caroline Burkle, an audience favorite many of you will fondly recall from episode 565 this past December. For the sake of brevity, I'll spare the full bios other than to quickly mention for context

that Chris is a sub nine-hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic swimmer, a veteran of many and ultra endurance challenge. He was my Otillo Swim Run World Championship teammate. And now today he's one of the world's most respected endurance coaches. Berks is a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic medalist with 23 All-American titles, two NCAA individual victories. She was also named NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year.

Today, Berks runs RISE, which is a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young elite athletes for guidance. This episode is so good for reasons that will soon become apparent. Pretty sure that Berks cemented a permanent seat for all future Coaches' Corner episodes, which is great.

And it's all coming up really quick. But first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find

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I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical Thank you. to support and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs.

They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. really do, and they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful, and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you

or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, so this one is a little bit of everything among the many things discussed in general terms. This is a conversation about bringing purpose and intention to our strength and endurance goals. It's also about the opportunity for personal growth, for resilience, for adaptability that athletic performance

or the pursuit of athletic performance, as well as this pandemic presents and demands from all of us. Put bluntly, it's not just about working out. It's really about working in. I don't need to tell you that Chris and Caroline are two of my favorite people, but the combination of the two of them together or the three of us all told, it is really just over the top. So without further ado, let the coaching session begin. We're off to an amazing start.

Oh, did we start? We're starting. Donner party two. Yeah. Have we all three been together in the same place at the same time since then? I don't think so. No. No.

This is the first time. I mean, I've obviously seen both you guys separately, but yeah, we did that podcast up in Donner when we were training for, say it, can you say it? Okay, now's the time. Can you say the word? Is this the test? Yeah. Otillo.

No, I don't even think that's close. All right. I just go full. You have European descent. I know, I go full American for this. I just go Otillo. Otillo. Don't even try. That way you exempt yourself out of the criticism, right?

I'm not in that gray zone of somewhat insulting. Right. But as long as you preface it by saying, I'm gonna butcher this, but let me give it a go. Okay, let's hear it. Otillo. Is that it? I don't know.

Well, what we really need to do is just ask for whomever is listening right now. It doesn't lodge in my long-term memory though. Send us a voice memo. I've had many people say it properly and then for whatever reason, I can't do it. Even doing it- Once you get to a certain age, you lose that ability.

That part of your brain just gets switched off. Even hearing it last March on Catalina enough. Right. From Americans saying it properly. I still don't remember. Right. So here we are, ugly Americans. You're doing November?

You're doing Catalina in November? With my brother. Right on. Are you doing the full one? No, we're doing the sprint. The sprint. It won't be the same, right? The sprint is not the same experience.

I don't know. It's an experience whiplash with the, I did the sprint. No, I did the middle one, didn't I? I don't remember. I think I did the middle one. There's a short one, a middle one. Yeah, I think I did the middle one.

I was gonna do the long one with Mark, but then he had a timing thing and for whatever reason, like we couldn't do it. And then I was grateful cause I realized the middle one was hard enough. That island is no joke. I'm just gonna pretend it's the long one. Yeah, when I told my brother about

what we actually need to be training for, getting like slippery rocks and whatever. And he was like, oh yeah, I'll find those around here. He lives in Louisville, Kentucky. Right. All right, Clark. And I mean, he's committed. My brother is a competitor though, so.

Right, which is why it seems like you should do the longer the better. That's what I think. Yeah. We probably should. There's not a lot of slippery rocks. I was just thinking it's mainly beaches. Yeah, there's hills,

but it's more traditional trail running. It's not as technical as Sweden by a long shot. Right. It was completely different. I mean, it was hard, the terrain was tough, but it wasn't like mountain, like orienteering or you're not trudging through bogs. Through the forest.

Yeah, like falling down on your butt on slippery rocks. Like that wasn't part of it, but- It may be part of mine. And it wasn't, and we, maybe it was just the day, but it was super hot out. Like I was overheated the entire time. I was wishing I had either a sleeveless or just did it without a wetsuit.

Yeah, November. I mean, it's hot. Yeah, what's the water temp? 60s? The water will go up. I mean, the water will. Yeah, what's the water temp? The water will go up. I mean, the water will be a lot warmer than March. Like 68 to 70. I would keep that in mind. I was so happy to get back in the water and cool down

because the running definitely overheated me. And that was the biggest challenge, like being overheated, trying to run up trails, like steep hills. The run segments were also different than the traditional Attila in Sweden that we did. Oh, way different. They were longer and you're more exposed.

They were more in a forest and shorter in and out of water. You do these 200 meter runs and then 200 meters swim and then 300 meter run and 100 meters swim. So that was definitely different in Catalina. But he also, what was it? Michael warned us, it's a lot harder than it looks. And Catalina was. The long course really surprised me

as my partner is just pulling me along. I got the reverse effect. He was just like, what are you doing, Chris? I'm like, this is way harder than I thought. Andy Blow from Precision Hydration. Oh. So, and he's quite an athlete himself and former pro triathlete.

That's an unusual, uncomfortable experience for you to get pulled. And the apologies that they- That's what I was doing to you the whole time. So sorry, I'm holding you back. Just go ahead, leave me, leave me. That's how I'm gonna feel when I'm swimming with my brother though.

He's gonna be charging, like I'm talking pace on pace on pace to the swim. Yeah, but he's the classic top heavy swimmer. He doesn't look like he can run up a hill. I mean, yeah, I think we may be even on the runs probably. Well, I don't know, maybe. But you want that, he'll clear the water for you. You stay on his feet and then you.

Right, exactly. He swims breaststroke, I swim freestyle and we'll be great. It's fine. I mean, I think Catalina is the perfect kind of easy first race to do. Chris and I going to Sweden and doing this thing. Like we didn't, other than that Donner trip that we were on, like we didn't do any training together.

And it was like the teamwork aspect of it and like maintaining proximity to your team. Like there's a lot of, it was amazing how many people were tethered to each other too. Yeah. Which I've still never tried that. Cause that just, I'm like, I'll face plant,

I'll trip on that cord or, you know, something bad will happen. It helps, but it helps for, if you have a super strong swimmer that literally can pull you. Right. I mean, there were a few times where Andy, yes, pulled me. Oh, you were tethered? I was, he was like, you know, let me pull you. Right. I mean, there were a few times where Andy, yes, pulled me. Oh, you were tethered?

I was, he was like, you know, let me pull you. Not on the run. On the swim, he pulled me. And it is interesting, and I noticed this both in Sweden and in Catalina, because you have the European crop of athletes who come, who are doing the circuit. And the sport has now been around long enough

that you have these specialists, like this is what they do. They're not like doing this on the side or after their triathlon career is over, like they're swim runners. And that's a very specific skillset that they have mastered. And when you see them execute, you're like, oh, that's a whole other thing

that they're doing, you know? They're so good at it. There's no weakness. I'm curious to see who comes for it. The only one I've done is with Hillary. Right, yeah. And that was in San Diego or no, Long Beach. Which is a whole different experience.

Oh my God, we were like, boom. Well, Hillary is very similar to my brother to where strategy, strategy, strategy. And I'm just like, let's go. So it's like, I pick up well on the strategist so I can strategize with the strategist. So Hillary's like, let's do this. This is the route.

This is how we're doing it. My brother's the same way. So it's like a good balance. You don't have two people trying to tell each other what to do the whole time. And then you'll get there and it'll be a whole different thing. Yeah, the plan will go awry

and you'll change it completely. It'll be rainy, windy, choppy. Right, I know, right? I remember watching that and I was like broken on the couch and just so in awe of you two doing that. I'm so glad it was that way though. Cause you went there next year and it was like a nice day.

Yeah. It was sunny in 75 the next year. It was a completely different experience. So us always having that event, it was epic. I mean, it's an experience of a lifetime to have that come together like that. And for us to be in that scenario, you can't script that. It was something else to watch. I'll put it that way. and for us to be in that scenario, you can't script that.

Yeah. It was something else to watch. I'll put it that way. It was something. Being on my side and watching it as it was live and you guys were going through it. Did you watch the live stream of the whole thing? Like, I don't remember what hour of the day it was at, but I was like, I'm committed to this.

I gotta watch this. And it was like choppy at some time, you know, there was points when it was just like spotty and the internet, the wifi was bad or whatever. But you guys, I mean, I was seasick watching it and just knowing what you all were doing through that was inspiring enough for me. I've told this story before,

but the most absurd moment in the whole thing was like midway through the pig swim, which is like the longest, it comes like maybe two thirds of the way in. It's the most exposed and the longest channel crossing and the whole thing where there's no island protection. So you really get the chop of the Baltic sea. And I completely lost eye contact with Chris.

I had no idea where he was and you couldn't, all the islands look the same. So when you're spotting on the horizon, where you're supposed to go, you lose your perspective of which direction you're heading. And the boats were pitching so insanely that it was like, if this was the United States, there's no way they would let any boats out here.

And I just lied on my back and started laughing. I was like, this is the most ridiculous thing. And do you remember how many, like just everywhere you looked were jellyfish, but they weren't, they didn't sting. They were certain kind of jellyfish, but just like thousands, you know, everywhere you at every stroke.

And I was like, this is- And that was the only reason they would have canceled the race is not because of us, not because of the swimmer, because of the boats, they have to stay sort of in one place and they were getting tossed so badly as support boats that they would have had to cancel the race only because of that.

They said, we don't care about the swimmers or the athletes. Tomas was on one of those boats and he had some stories about getting seasick. It's pretty brutal. I remember that, those stories. The main thing I remember and I'll never forget is just you and I looking at each other at the top of one of those cliffs.

I think it was right before the pig swim. And we just start laughing. We're like, are you serious? We had to like slide down on our butt to even get down to the place where you jump in. It's like, we definitely didn't train for this correctly. A and B where's the coast guard? Like, wait, we're getting in here?

Did they cancel it? And we're still just the only ones out there. You know that thought process. Did they bring it back? Gosh, it was quite remarkable sitting on that beach and just looking at each other, just laughing. Cause that's all you could do. You're like, all right, well, here we go. Right.

Those are the moments you remember the most. Catalina won't be like that. Most likely. Are you sure? We'll see. Well, because the hardest swim in Catalina is the really long one on the back end of the eye, on the, you're already coming back and it's this, you leave this beautiful beach.

I mean, some of these beaches and these swims are gorgeous. And the clarity in the water is nothing like it is in LA. Like it is very tropical. Like the marine life is bananas. And then there's this one long swim, you leave the beach and you swim about a mile, maybe a little bit more, I don't remember off the top of my head,

but it's these cliffs and the beautiful island right there. And you have to swim around a point to come back in and onto another beautiful beach. But you're swimming and you're like, this is big ocean swimming. Like, cause you're just completely exposed and the cliffs just go straight up and it's a pretty remarkable swim.

The currents against you and you're just like, this is awesome. It's pretty hard. And it's sharky, yeah? Do we need to bring Michael with us? Michael Muller on the... I don't think it's shark. I don't know. You wanna do Catalina.

How is that gonna work? I know, no, I'm fine with them. I just wanna know if they're sharks. And what will that do for you? If the answer is yes or no, does it change anything if you're gonna do it? I think the general awareness, oh no, I'll still do it. But the general awareness of knowing that,

okay, that's gonna- So you're gonna do the midnight start and the whole thing, you're doing the official crossing where you start at midnight, you swim through the night. And you know- I don't think ours is at midnight this time. I don't know actually. I mean, I'm almost positive it's not at midnight.

I remember looking at the, I think it's like maybe 6 AM, 5 AM. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know Hank Wise? Sounds familiar. He lives down in like the Long Beach area. Swam at Stanford with me, super funny goofball guy, but he coaches kids now,

but he's done the Catalina swim a million times. And I think like a year ago, he broke the record. And he's like a couple of years younger than me. Like maybe he must be 51 or something like that at this point. Yeah. Came really close to breaking it. Then I think he broke,

I think he might be the record holder right now. I don't know, but he's done it so many times. Like I could connect you with him. So he'll have the whole breakdown and low down of like what to do and what not to do. That would be great. Cause I like to plan. As I told you about Tahoe.

The captain is key for that too. I mean, you can shave off of a ton of time. Yeah. Yeah. And for Tahoe, that's the main reason for me. There's no big fish. Okay, let's talk about that. Are you gonna do this too? So I have not swum at all.

I've done no swimming. Like it sounds cool. Like 21 miles across Tahoe, we should just preface or contextualize this by saying that's what Chris is getting ready for right now. Trans Tahoe. And so CB. Crossing 21 miles.

I'm also not training though. I mean, the pools are- There's no pools. There's no pools. I don't know how you went. This morning he's like, oh, I'm swimming at Pali High. I'm like, also new news to me that a pool is open. 40 minutes head down.

Right. But you on Instagram shared pictures of you on a pool deck. I went to El Segundo Wiseburn and they have like, I mean, I'm talking you book it on the hour, 7 a.m. for the week out. And if you get lucky, you get a slot. If not, you're like one minute late. I know.

So I got that one. And then I got a lane at, what's the one in Culver City, the plunge? Oh, the plunge, yeah. That was it. But you gotta book ahead. Like I did that too. And I've said this before, but yeah,

like look at the schedule, like, you know, like I'll just like book a ton for the whole week and then like the way my schedule kind of plays out, like I ended up making one of those swims. Yeah, you're that guy. I just like, I don't wanna do it on a schedule. I do it when I have an opening and I scoot over, you know. It's so, you were saying that on Bonnie,

when you're talking to Bonnie, because it's so true. It's like, you just wanna go when you feel it. Like when you wake up in the morning and you feel like I need to swim today, my body's sore, I need to loosen up, be one with the water. And it's hard when you just have to schedule it in on a certain day and time. And I don't wanna go down and swim in the ocean by myself.

Like I just am like all uptight and like anxious the whole time. It is scary. You were sharing Chris on your latest podcast episode about swimming in the bay and the difference between seals and sea lions. Seals fine, sea lions not so fine. And you don't know as they're coming up to you.

Yeah, they don't announce what kind of animal they are. They just ram into you. Exactly, hard. And they're into you. Exactly, hard. And they're very vicious. Yeah, super vicious and they're territorial. That's the problem with seals. Do they bite? They will. They'll nip you, yeah.

Really? Hard. There's definitely a bunch of South end rowing guys who have gotten. Right, is that when they get out in the bay though? They don't come in an aquatic park. That would be unusual. Rarely, rarely. But yeah, most go out. Most of the South end rowing guys.

I just saw a couple of days ago, a whale came into the bay. Oh, wow. There's a lot going on in the bay right now. There's just a lot in general. Like there's, I mean, the weather has been, it's been the biggest surf in what 30 years in LA. I don't, I just made that number up.

So I think- Is that true? I haven't heard that. Yeah, because I think the, I don't remember when it was, but the first rain that happened, all the wind that came in, I mean, it was in Redondo

and in Hermosa, Redondo, Manhattan, all the surfers were just like, this is the biggest swell we've had in so long. And I don't surf. So I just watch and it was intense. I mean, pumping. And then right after that, you see so much more wildlife. Like when things calm down again,

it's like the changing of the tides, literally. Like things just happen and you go out there and there's seals everywhere, sea lions or whatever, sharks and dolphins and all of these things that people are spotting and finding. And I find it so beautiful. I'm like, this is so cool that life just has this cycle of that, you know?

And I'm just still learning so much about all of that with the ocean in the first place, but it's very cool to learn. Right, except that when there's a big storm and all the surfers go out, they're disregarding the fact that like, that's when all the runoff is in the ocean and everybody ends up with some kind of infection.

Like I did, learned my lesson there. Remember the septic knee thing? Oh, right, that was from that, wow. So now I feel like the one that after it rains every time, there's still some of my buddies that will go out in the water and I feel bummed because I'm like, guys, I've had bad experience. It was a hospital thing.

Like I can't do that again and I just, I won't. So I just wait, I wait 72 hours. There's plenty of days to swim. Yeah, exactly. And the way I see it is mother ocean has her way, you know, like that's power. Like we are guests in that space and that's, I just view it as that. Like I will join when it feels right for me. And that's just been my philosophy since I'm not a big wave surfer or anything like that. I think you can say that with mother nature. Yeah.

Not even mother. Exactly. Mother of all things. Yeah, we noticed the big surf on the coast ride last week. Did you? And coming down, it was pretty remarkable. How many people did you have on that ride? 15.

Yeah. 15, Yeah. 15, yeah. I mean, for us, it was one for me, it was important to put on an event and not cancel something. And it was a January we had to cancel cause everything was closed.

And so we only had about 15 that were flexible enough, sort of like calling the Eddie, it was like calling the coast ride. And we had 15 people show up, ride down the coast and the highway one's closed because the washout, there's a huge washout. So we had to go inland, which is not quite big, sir. Yeah, it's a little bit different.

I mean, it's beautiful Carmel Valley and so forth. And then, but next thing you know, you're in the central valley and there's a lot of headwind. Flat commercial farming. It is, but then we turned into the old wildflower course and being back there again for the first time in 15, 20 years that was pretty cool to see. That's cool.

So with COVID and all the challenges that it's thrown at us for the last year, here we have Chris who's just been living his best life. He's like coaching, he's like coach rides. Yeah, like he's super fit training for this. Even though there's, I guess your master's pool, that's open, right? Yeah, super fortunate.

So you've been able to get back in there. But it's kind of been, I mean, I'm not, I don't wanna minimize, like there's obviously challenges and setbacks, but you've been, you know, basically thriving. Self curated adventures. And this time of non-competition highlighting for a lot of people, what's really important to them

on what they're doing on their endurance journey and what they really need. And they realize that they don't need a finish line. They need the experience, the journey, the time out there, the growth, and the curiosity for potential, as I like to always say, right? Like curious of what else I can do.

And I think this last year, because there has been no competition in the sense of urgency, like must get ready. They've relaxed into becoming better overall holistic endurance athletes. And it's been fun. Like I've had more athletes approach me with a new sense of purpose

and better outlook towards the future than ever before. Right, because without a race, then that question of why are you even doing this becomes more present. Like you can't really run away from it, right? And all the excuses around, like I don't have time to work on technique or I don't have time to do the strength

where all the other stuff that gets packed into kind of maximizing your potential, that when you're busy and this is your hobby, as you always say, is easy to kind of push across to the side, like, well, now's your moment. Like here you can actually do all those things and answer that question of why

and get really deep into like the purpose aspect of all of this. But one of the things I was thinking when I was listening to your latest podcast episode, which by the way is fantastic. Like you've really, you know, I didn't realize that you have been doing this now for four and a half years,

you've become a master of this medium. And it's, I mean, every endurance athlete should listen to your podcasts. Really, really well done. But I feel like as somebody who's known you for a long time, you've matured so much, not just as a human being, but how you kind of communicate your mentorship and had COVID occurred like 10 years ago,

you would have been the most intolerant, petulant, you know, like, I don't wanna hear about your stupid excuse, you know, it's like, but you're now like, I was listening to you talk and I was like, this guy's like a life coach. Like it really has so little to do with endurance anymore. It's really about like life and meaning. It is.

And so that this moment that we're having right now has coincided with your capacity to kind of speak to it. It appeared as it should, right? If like you said, 10 years ago, I would have not been prepared for this. But for some reason, things just all came together right here. I was mature enough 10 years ago.

I didn't have the wisdom 10 years ago. I didn't have a partner who challenges me constantly to go through this. Like it all culminates to this place. And now to speak more towards the purpose, it's my enjoyment lies 100% in helping others get that sort of deep understanding of their why or their purpose or their path.

I mean, the biggest frustration that many athletes that come to me have is that I keep telling them, it will appear for you. Do not try to force it. You know, you can't manipulate your life path and they don't wanna hear that. And it takes a few years and then they'll come back and go, you know what?

You were sort of right back then. I'm ready to take that journey now. Right. But my power meter says this Chris, and I needed to say this. Yes, but the only way it's gonna say that is if you let go and let, you know, it's like we know from swimming, you know,

it's like whenever we're too tight on, today this set is gonna be so intense. Like you try to get yourself mentally ready for it. And then you get there and you're three or four repeats in and you're nervous and you're not swimming well and your walls are awful. And you're just like chopping through the water. And then it's like,

what am I making such a big deal out of this? And then slowly you return into what you're capable of. And that's the hardest part, that dichotomy. Caring enough for the result and the outcome, but also letting go enough for letting the result and outcome to happen for you. The Eckhart Tolle. Yeah, that's literally my favorite.

Right now I'm living in a space of possibilities on both sides of everything. Like both things can be true. And I don't work with older athletes like you do, but the younger generation, these teenagers, it's the same thing. It's like this, I don't want to let go of that control because if I let go of that control,

then I'm gonna fail. I have, then my confidence will go you know, go down the drain, all of these other things that people just hold on so tightly to. And to let go is such a physical experience too, that you have to experience through your body, which I'm a big fan of just that whole conversation. But I think we try to use our minds to wrap around that,

to where it's like, I'm just gonna let go with my mind. And then yes, we can let go with our minds, but then we're just, our bodies are still tense and our minds are trying to let go and conceptualize this thing that we haven't actually experienced through our whole physical being, which I think quarantine has allowed people to tap in

to themselves in a different way because they don't have that physical outlet in the same way. So they have to release physically through other modalities. Right, right. Like what, that's the gift of this whole experience. Like when you're older and you've been ground down by life and you've had your experiences,

like you kind of slowly come to this realization of the power of letting go or like, you know, really calibrating like what you can control versus what you can't. When you're young, it's very difficult, right? Like you're like, this is what I'm doing and this is my path and I've got this, this is my meet schedule and this is what I'm doing. And then COVID hits and it all gets thrown out the window.

Like how, not just disruptive, but like completely disorienting for a young athlete on the rise, right? So they're, but they're being given this opportunity to kind of grapple with these things that most people don't figure out until much later. Yeah. And if they can figure that out, how much more kind of powerful can they be? Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with living

under the constructs of, you know, what you're modeled in a young age, because that's how we all grow and learn. But like you said, as you get older, you start to unlearn the things from your past. So it just opens up more space to create what you want. So I think when athletes are young, they're afraid that something that works for them is, you know, well, it's like what we talked about last time. Well, if it works for me to do this, but everybody else is doing this, then I can't possibly do this, like that's wrong. Whereas when you get older,

you can kind of figure out what works for you, training or off training, like when you're at home. So I am noticing a big growth in that where people are starting to just own and claim their own path about what works for them, especially the athletes that I've talked to and worked with during this time. It's like, I've had more time to actually understand who I am as an athlete, not only, you know, outside, but actually as a competitor, like who I am as a competitor, it's given,

I wanna see where these kids are gonna be in one or two years, where your athletes are gonna be in one or two years. Like after having this window of time, I can't, I mean, that's huge. It allowed people to work on things they've never experienced before. I just, I'm excited for that personally.

How many, what's the percentage of your athletes, Caroline, that are swimmers versus other sports? Swimmers or water sports are the most dominant with us. We've got water polo and swimming are the main two. And then we've got softball, baseball, synchronized swimming, well, artistic swimming. Really, they changed it? Yeah, I know.

I keep saying synchronized. Is that like a woke thing? Like why do they change the name of that? I guess it is, I don't know. Artistic swimming? I know, I need to do a little more research on that, but I know that they've changed it to artistic swimming, which is cool.

But yeah, so swimming is water sports for sure. And is there a difference in how the athletes that you're working with are processing this based upon what sport they're in? Honestly, it also depends on Olympic sports too. So like we have a couple sports that aren't Olympic sports. So it's like the seasons are different. They have a different kind of structure and layout.

But when you have these athletes and we have some mentors that were training for Tokyo and it's same thing. It's like, it really threw them off. Like it really was hard at first. And your point of what you're saying, they've come a long way, but this time for those that had that Olympic schedule

where a lot of sports follow the quad of needs and structure, whether it's world championships and Pan Ams and whatever, it threw a lot of people off at first. The first initial three months were really difficult. Really, really, really difficult. And it just felt like, what's my purpose? Like, wow, if this isn't my path, what am I doing?

And even some of our athletes were saying things like, well, what am I gonna work on now? Like, will we work on mindset? But I don't know what to work on. And it took about, most of our mentors were saying this to us just, okay, so we've really got to all come together and shift what we're doing here.

Like how can we go through a transitional period with unknown and uncertainty versus, okay, how can we get ready for the ISL or the state championships or sectional championships or whatever it is. So it was a big shift in purpose. Like we were talking about earlier, huge. People completely had to redo their goals.

Well, you almost get kicked off the highway, right? Like let's say you're heading on a highway your entire life. It's pretty structured in swimming, especially where you know where you're going to be in a year from now and two years from now, if you keep progressing, it's a pretty clear path. And it's not like this year has just been a detour. It's like you completely got kicked off the highway. Now that where you're going is still out there, but it's like, how do you make that detour,

side road, whatever, work for you to still get back on the highway a couple of miles down the road. And that's the part that I find even the younger athletes and Olympic athletes have struggled with early of, well, wait a moment, there's no manual for this. And we've been conditioned our entire life.

And to this day in all sports, it's like, do these things, do it like this, set your mind to this. And no power through, don't listen to your body, just go, right? And this is how it works. And those first few months, when you take all that structure, all that narrative, your entire identity away,

of course you're gonna be floundering and confused. take all that structure, all that narrative, your entire identity away, of course you're gonna be floundering and confused. And like you said, okay, work on mindset. What does that even mean? Because again, you don't get it. The pools are closed. That was the answer. When I was 19, if the pool was closed for like a week, I would have a panic attack, you know, like.

Yeah, so. It's so true. Yeah, well, what do I, I don't get it. Do I just do abs? Like, you know, and so there's this whole shift where it was, it really was interesting to see the athletes say, okay, I mean, we had the artistic swimmer that's a mentor

doing her actual routines on land over Zoom with the other, her teammates. And she's training for Tokyo. She's also a mentor. And they had the yoga things where you put your head in and you can do headstands, but it's like a lifted raised, I forget what it's called.

I mean, they're all upside down doing their routines on Zoom. And she's sending us videos of what she's doing because we were just like, this is phenomenal. But it was such a shift of like, but wait, the pools are closed. How do we do this? And in her perspective,

like she was able to work on her own shift, but she was unique in that she was also competing. And the ones that the kids she was helping, those teen athletes got an even better perspective based on her own growth and what she was helping, those teen athletes, got an even better perspective based on her own growth and what she was going through. So she was able to grow and also learn how to help someone else

during her own growth, which I think is insanely, I can't imagine doing that when I was her age. Like I would have been so laser focused to not be able to like understand anything else around me. And I think it's really allowing people to understand their purpose outside of sport

and helping and growing and shifting whatever they had to do to however they had to do it. Yeah, and the athlete that can develop the stoic mindset. I was just gonna say, when you take everything away. Everything's gone, here are all these obstacles. So we can either throw a pity party and be angry about it. Or we go, all right, here's what it is. So, okay, I guess we're gonna do our routines on Zoom now.

Like let's do it. Or swim in aquatic park. I mean, you would go early in the summer last year with the pandemic and the pools closed and you would go to the aquatic park. There would be like 600 swimmers. It was all these high school kids were swimming. It was constant and everybody's swimming out along

down to the St. Francis and back, that was their only swimming. So you had swimmers from all over the Bay area using aquatic park as a launch point for swimming. And you'd have coaches on the rocks and on the pier. Right. By time, you know, and they'd whistle. I can't imagine.

I mean, I've thought, I've thought about that a lot. Just what it would have been like if this was an Olympic year before Beijing. Yeah. And we were like, I think about it all the time. I mean, of course I don't know what I would have done in that moment, but yeah, I guarantee it would have been an adaptation lesson.

Well, just think three months before trials. Oh my gosh. The world stops. Yeah. Right? I think that's what it was gonna be. Three months or two months before trials. We're at the one year mark right now. Last March, it was, I think trials were a little bit earlier. No, you're absolutely right.

These trials were like June, May, June. But I think they were going to be a little bit earlier this year. I think they were going to be late May or last year. And so it was like two and a half months before trials. I can't imagine. Here you are. I mean, and we're talking about a little swimmer world, right?

But that's multiplied by a hundred sports. Your whole life. I want to see where they're going to be into. I'm telling you something is, You're talking about a little swimmer world, right? But that's to multiplied by a hundred sports, your whole life. I wanna see where they're gonna be into. I'm telling you something is, this is so fruitful for their minds and for their regulation of who they are just as a human. I'm so excited.

Well, and it truly is the one who is the most, the ones who did work on the mindset piece and really took that seriously are the ones that are gonna emerge and have the big careers because that's the only way that you get through this. Well, think of the vulnerability that comes about when everything has been pulled out of your identity last March, and you've been able to work through that

and figure out a way and you're back in the pool since I think most of them are since August or September, they've been getting in pools. And your gratitude, your understanding of how special this is, how meaningful, the extra motivation, the intrinsic push you get from that, hopefully many of them are kicking out stronger, more resilient athletes

than they ever thought they could be. They discovered a side of themselves that was not there before because we were all in the channel, right? And we got knocked off that path. And next thing you know, it's like, wow, I'm back on the path. This is amazing.

Now I understand what it means to dig deeper and find a third and fourth wind and focus even more and be more diligent about recovery and nutrition and mindset and all those things. Like hopefully that all became amplified because it was gone. It was literally gone. And you sat on the couch eating a box of Pringles going, what do I do? I mean, it was literally gone. And you sat on the couch eating a box of Pringles going, what do I do?

I mean, it was that bad. We're not exaggerating here. For sure. I'm interested to see what the transition is back into, I don't like saying the word normal, but back into it, this new way of living too. Cause I know that a lot of athletes are now feeling like, okay, I got used to this and now I'm transitioning back and things are starting to happen. way of living too. Because I know that a lot of athletes are now feeling like,

okay, I got used to this and now I'm transitioning back and things are starting to happen and I've got to shift again. And that's a whole nother shift because you like regulate, you adapt, you regulate, and then you got to adapt and shift again. And that can be daunting to a lot of athletes

that have sort of gotten used to the way that things were with their training and with school. And then all of a sudden you're an introverted 14 year old and you got to go back out into the world and there's a ton of people everywhere. And you got to go to meets again and there's a ton of people everywhere.

And that is also something that I'm curious to see like how well we can support them in that space. Because I think that's something that's sort of forgotten. It's still a way to adapt. Well, we all have to do that as people too. Exactly. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I know I feel that. Even out on the highway, I'm like, well, the 405 is lit right now. Like it wasn't this way three months ago. Where are all these people coming from? I know, where are they going? But it is-

They can't be all podcasting. Well, maybe they are. Everybody has a podcast now. Everybody's late to their podcast interview. This can't be all podcasting. Well, maybe they are. Everybody has a podcast now. Everybody's late to their podcast interview. This used to be my highway. Now there's actually other people living in LA. I mean, it was nice for a while. I was like open road. It was crazy.

Because yeah, you could go, I was like literally driving to the Rose Bowl pool to swim. And it was not that, I mean, it was far, but it wasn't that big of a deal. It's like, it's not the distances, it's the freaking traffic here. I was the only person online in security yesterday at SFI. Not a single person in each direction.

I walked right up, they scanned my ID. I go to the security line and the thing goes off and they go, you've been randomly selected. And I look around, I'm like, what do you mean randomly selected? You have to change that word. Cause I'm clearly not random. So yeah, only line it, only person.

It's interesting because you hear like, oh, everybody's back flying. But then, you know, I've had, I've only flown twice this past year, but both times I was in the airport, you know, I was, you just walk right in. It is so nice though. It is like, I mean, you get off,

I got off the shuttle and I was at this gate within like four minutes. And you're just like, wow, this is how travel could be to get on the plane, have the planes empty. Yeah, it was nice. What is, I know this is a moving target, but how is the Olympics gonna work? Like they're not letting foreigners into Tokyo, but there's enough people in Japan

to kind of fill the rafters in terms of attendance. And they're being restrictive about journalists and the like, but like what is, from the athlete's perspective, working with athletes who are getting ready to go, like what is that experience gonna look like for them? I think they're still figuring it out. I haven't heard anything solidified yet.

It's still kind of in flux. It's still, yeah. And I think that a lot of coaches are doing a good job preparing them for what they need to know, but also things are gonna change again. It's gonna be different. It's gonna be different again. I think the village will be just far more spaced out.

I'm sure with what they built, they're gonna have to arrange that somehow or they've been building more, I would imagine. But I haven't heard anything solidified. So I wouldn't know definitely what that will be like to be an athlete. I just know that it will probably be pretty restricted. I mean, if I was in Beijing

and we could literally only go from the village to the pool, I can't imagine what it will be like now. That was what we could literally only go from the village to the pool, I can't imagine what it will be like now. That was what we could do and that was it. So I'm sure that it will be pretty tight restrictions on that end. Yeah, I mean, I think the pro sport bubbles have helped for sure them planning for that.

First of all, it's going to be the bubble. Yeah, it's gonna be like a hundred fold in terms of scale. But I think they'll separate the venues more dramatically. Like truly the swimmers and the polo players and the divers and such, they will be in their own compound. And like you said, one avenue to and from, you're not interacting with other athletes.

I mean, the opening ceremonies are just gonna be bizarre in general. Like how are you putting 15,000 athletes, even masked in that proximity into a stadium? Like how many people are gonna say no to that or even want to jeopardize their Olympic event? But I also think that those bubbles are gonna be bubbles within bubbles.

And it's just gonna be one quarantine perfect, you know, biological passport closed off area. I just, I have a feeling that it will change a bunch over and over again. I mean, I don't know. I think the future will hold this though. I don't think in four years or three years or five years, whenever the next Olympics,

I don't think we're going backwards from this. I think from a risk of virus or something like that standpoint, I don't think it's necessarily in the next Olympics going to go backwards from what the restrictions are going to be for this one. It's just going to be more protective, more avoiding the risk of what could be. You know, it was just like security

after the 96 games in Atlanta was for the first time, everything changed to 2000. And 92 was pretty bad compared to 88, but 92 was Barcelona and you're already pretty restricted and big fences, but you're still hanging out in the city with everybody. 96, once the first bomb went off, that was it. Like 2000, 2004, everything went,

you're not going backwards from the security. It's hard not to be depressed about that though. Like how do you move forward with that and not let it rob the athlete or the attendee of the joy. And we're not just talking rob the athlete or the attendee of the joy. And we're not just talking about the Olympics, like this is gonna be applicable to any large gatherings of human beings. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, when I went in Beijing, I didn't go to the opening ceremonies, just- Yeah, but you weren't, you didn't not go because you thought you were gonna catch a virus. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I went because I was worried, well, my coaches were worried that my legs would get too tired.

But at the same time, I think what you're saying is true. It's like, that will be something that is taken into consideration moving forward, especially with the opening ceremonies and what that looks like. But I can't imagine what that is like for these athletes going into it. I feel very deeply about that.

I feel it. So it's just, it's a heavy feeling, but it's also, I have so much respect for those that I see training with their attitudes, positive, you know, it's really cool to see that happen. I don't know. I think it would have been really tough to do. I'm curious about the crop of athletes,

sort of what you were saying, but we talked about it back at the beginning of the pandemic when they canceled the Olympics and made it 2021. Who rises, who falls back, who's on the back end of their career and no longer wanted to put in that extra year and put their life on hold. Who are the younger ones kicking up?

Yes. Who would have not been quite ready yet last year and got a year of maturity. I mean, it shifts a generation because then they have an extra Olympics for the next Olympics. I mean, it just, it's like this Pandora's box that you don't know the outcome

and how what might've changed and what didn't change. But I'm curious to see what the storylines are there and across all sports, because it just creates different rosters and different people and different people were like, no, I couldn't deal with it or I didn't have access or availability. It's going to be an interesting mix. Yeah, yeah. And all kinds of storylines and people

like you've never heard of, because they're gonna emerge out of this. They're not the favorites, are probably people who are later in their careers, right? And it's like, can you hang on for another year? Not just hang on for another year, but hang on in a year where all these obstacles are getting thrown at you, where a lot of people are just gonna's like, can you hang on for another year? Not just hang on for another year, but hang on in a year where all these obstacles are getting thrown at you,

where a lot of people are just gonna be like, I don't need to do this. Yeah. Like I did my thing. You know, like I don't, like this is. Been there. Anthony Irvin would have loved this. Right.

He would have been like, I just got a swim in 50. What is he doing? He's in Hawaii right now, like boxing and like he looks super fit. Like, I don't know what he's. Of course he is. Of course he's boxing. That guy, I boxing and like he looks super fit. Like, I don't know what he's- Of course he is. Of course he's boxing. That guy, I don't count him out of anything.

He tell you that he has no interest in swimming and then show up and win the gold medal in the 50. And that's the thing, especially in this environment, he might be like, you know what? I probably still can pop at 23. Because he's literally a master of adaptation. Like he can adapt to anything. And I've seen it time and time again, no matter the circumstance, he's like, master of adaptation. Like he can adapt to anything. And I've seen it time and time again,

no matter the circumstance, he's like, it's fine. Here I am, I'm gonna kick ass. Like I'm gonna do the thing. Still just gotta swim one length of the pool. Right, I might as well just show up at trials and see. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he has no fear in that way and it's, or he just works with it well.

Right, but exactly like you're saying, that is a prime example of somebody who no matter the circumstance can just not let his mind get in the way of what his body can do. And that's what I love about a lot of these athletes and the ones we look up to who just say, you know what?

I know how to do this. I inherently know how to do this. It's that positive presence that they talk of in psychology of you've have a past narrative of being successful in how you do it. And you have this confidence in the future that you can do it again. So you can completely just focus right now.

You have enough validation of the past and you have enough excitement and curiosity and positive thoughts about the future so that you can put this moment together. And he's like the perfect example of that. And he's like, you know what? I'm not here to prove anything. I've had the success in the past.

I know what my future holds and I'm just gonna do my best right here. And it's great. It's such a heartwarming, exciting, fun thing to watch when you see it and play out that clean. Yeah, and that goes back also to this idea of people that have faced obstacles in their personal life and their life outside of the pool,

like swimming, track and field, like sports where it's all about controlling the controllables, where you're in this kind of perfect environment where all, a lot of obstacles are stripped away and all you have to do is execute. My sense is that those athletes are gonna have a harder time with the adaptability piece,

as opposed to, you know, somebody who's doing Otillo in Sweden, where it's just, it's all about obstacles and nothing's ever the same, right? Like you just, you're acclimated to having to deal with unforeseen things all the time. Whereas in swimming, it's like every day is the same, you know, and you're not used to any kind of weird thing intervening with that.

And that demonstrates a lack of like mental and psychological adaptability, which in the construct in which we find ourselves now is not a strength, like that's a huge weakness. This is a funny Florida story. For what it's worth, they did a great job of this at Florida. They would toss obstacles in left and right of things that could go wrong. So, you know, we'd show up at the pool deck at 2.45 and he'd be like,

everyone go home, come back at 1 a.m. We're doing a test set at 1 a.m. or, you know, whatever. That's smart. Super smart. And he used to, at one point, I think they cut, one of the managers went in and like cut some of our practice suits. So we got to the pool and like, we didn't have suits.

So we had to like figure out what to do to find a suit. And, you know, it's like literally a scavenger hunt to figure that out and then also be back by 3.30 or whatever. So you're like busting home, like digging through your old crap, like finding a suit, busting back, or like going to the football weight room because the managers have the boxes there of extra suits

and like everyone's digging through it, you know? And it's like stuff like that is actually helping athletes learn how to adapt. You know, we didn't have a pandemic, but we all had our own individual things going on. And, you know, I had my own individual things going on and everyone else had their own individual things going on. But I had my own individual things going on and everyone else had their own individual things going on. But when you're doing it collectively too,

if you're a team athlete or you're on a team, it's like you work together and you can create that way of overcoming this obstacle. And it worked. I mean, cause what's gonna happen when you're flying to NCAAs and your flight's canceled, you gotta get on a flight in the morning. Yeah, can you roll with it?

Exactly, be ready to rock at 4 p.m. for your first night relay or whatever it was. And that ended up happening to us. And it happened to my brother at NCAAs, their senior year. I don't know if you remember this, but the whole plane got norovirus. So it's another situation like this. So Stanford was on the plane,

Texas was on the plane and Arizona was on the plane. And it was literally the whole plane was the three men's teams. And as you know, NCAA, there's like eight or nine per team. So it's not, they're not taking up the whole plane. Let's put it that way. They get norovirus, all of them. They get to the meet and it had like widespread,

like after the first day, everyone, you know, was spreading it, getting it. So they postponed NCAAs. What is norovirus? That was just another kind of virus that's very contagious. It makes you throw up like nonstop. So, you know, they're all very sick and they postponed NCAAs.

Men's NCAAs, my brother's senior year at Ohio State, they postponed for two days. So the whole, all the fans are there, the crowds are there, the people that didn't get it have two extra days, you know, and by the time they ended up swimming it, my brother had eaten a peanut butter sandwich in four days and he still wins the men's 200 breast, you know,

but it's like to go through this process, I remember him just being like, I'm really grateful. I mean, he was at Arizona for this at this time, but I'm really grateful for what we had to do at Florida for some of this stuff, because it was tossed in our faces that we had to overcome crap that would, even the littlest of things, you know?

So there is something to be said about, you know, creating some sort of obstacle that's safe. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like, did you see the Tiger Woods documentary? Yeah. So when his dad is like making noises, you know, when he's a kid, like just trying to distract him every time he would swing.

Like Happy Gilmore? Yeah. Yeah. Come on, you guys know it's great. Oh yeah. I'm serious. We could do two hours on that documentary alone. Yeah.

But that's also with the self curated events this past year is sort of, and I was telling a lot of my athletes, like what you build yourself and what we're executing on here. Then when the event that's all manicured and curated for you and you have support and aid stations and finish lines and perfect transition areas or perfect aid stations, then you can apply your energy completely differently, right?

Because now you've done it when it's harder and you had to figure it out on your own and you sort of still did it and still did your distance or still did the pace you wanted or still did the event you wanted. But now when it's nice and clean and shiny for you, now we can really put something together. Whereas, you know, if they just sat around for a year

and did not use that opportunity once again. I think that that's an appropriate kind of place to segue into something you were talking about in your podcast the other day, which is this idea, well, two ideas, the first being to think about not just working out, but working in, which is kind of what we've already been talking about,

but also this idea of showing up is not enough. Like where is the intentionality that you're bringing to what it is that you're doing? And of course, this is something that's applicable to any athlete, how they're approaching their training regimen, but in life too, whatever it is that we're doing, particularly now where everything has been upended

and it's causing confusion and anxiety. And we're all kind of asking ourselves questions about like, why am I doing this? Like, we're all being, it's kind of, yeah, everybody's reevaluating in their own way right now. Yeah, but that's part of what I go into there. And that is, once you have your purpose and your clarity, you can show up with intention

because you're not questioning the goals. You're not questioning the path. Now you can focus all your attention onto executing the next workout, the next day at work, this project to the best of your ability. Cause you're not wondering, well, why am I? You don't wanna be asking, why am I doing this? That takes everything that you have in that workout

or in that project or that vacation with your family. You show up with intention too. Like if you start wondering, why am I here? You're not gonna have a good vacation. You're not gonna have a good workout. You're not gonna have a good vacation. You're not gonna have a good workout. You're not gonna have a good workout, work outcome. And so the big thing there is once you've have the bigger picture, the purpose,

and once you have the clarity, which is what I call the coaching, the path, the manual, the sort of map, then you can execute the workout properly. You can execute your training without wondering, why am I doing this? How is this gonna help me? Is this keeping me on my path towards my desired outcome? And is this what the coach and I discussed?

It's all been laid out already. And we know that from swimming, we're just so ingrained in this that we don't, well, of course these 400 IMs are helping me swim my 400 IM better. Of course, this set of 200s with the middle hundred fly is helping me swim my 400 IM better. But in the endurance training world

or in just in the work world, if you don't know where you're heading and why you're doing it, the quality of your work is always going to be limited because you're just constantly wasting cognitive energy, cognitive load as they call it, on other things in order to make it more intentional and clear for you.

Once you have that out, you can hit flow. You can, you're right in the moment because you're not worried about all the other things because they've been clarified for you. That makes me think about some questions I get asked from athletes in general, like 13 to 18 year old age range. Well, what does it mean to set an intention?

Or, you know, like the concept is very new. And I think- Most don't know. That's not limited to 13 to 18 year olds. Most adults that I work with don't know what that means. Right. And it's a very, I don't wanna say nuance, I mean, maybe, but to have the word intention,

I think it's confusing to people because it's like, well, I mean, I know why I wanna be here. And it's like, well, why? You have to kind of dig a few layers deeper. But I get asked that question a lot and it does like, well, why? You have to kind of dig a few layers deeper. But I get asked that question a lot and it does make me wonder, what would it be like to have a buffer

on each end of a workout? 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after to where you come in and you literally lay on the floor and breathe and set your intention for the workout. You do the thing and then you get out and you lay back down on the floor and you breathe and you set your intention for the workout. You do the thing and then you get out and you lay back down on the floor and you breathe and you set your intention moving forward. Like I think about this all the time.

You do an inventory of what just occurred and did you live up to the intention that you've set for that? Exactly, yeah. And it's intended. It's not perfect, it's intended. I am coming into this with an intention to do X, Y, Z

to the best of my current abilities. It doesn't mean I have to do it perfectly. It doesn't mean I always have to achieve it. But my focus towards that intention was clear. And I did the best of my current abilities. Current is very important because we judge ourselves on our future person, not who we are in the now.

And therefore I can finish that, look back and I get a little dopamine hit. Every time I hit an intention successfully, my walls today, I swam butterfly. Like we're just, we keep coming back to swimming because it's easy for us to highlight, but I swam my butterflies every second breath. I didn't do every single breath, right?

For the whole workout, an easy intention. So that's an example of an intention for running workout. I want to make sure that my stride is behind me and my heels are kicking up high the entire workout, regardless of anything else. I want to make sure that I do the rest interval today properly. I'm not going to jog it. I'm literally gonna sit down, center myself and prepare myself for the next best possible interval. All those are little intentions on how you get a workout done. And afterwards you go,

well, it wasn't necessarily that I feel so much different from a physical standpoint, but my sense of accomplishment, my sense of execution is so much more powerful and it allows me to move on from that workout. And it's such a better, more positive place. I can now focus on work. I can now focus on family.

I can now focus on school because I checked off all my intentions successfully, close that, move on. And we carry so much with us, especially as younger athletes into the next thing. Like, oh, I probably could have done that better. But that, like you said, 10 minutes before, 10 minutes after is perfect

because then we can just put that behind us, driving from the workout back home, driving from the workout or walking to school. And creating that buffer and then going, you know what, that was good. That was good enough. It was good to my expectations, my intentions I set prior. And now I'm gonna do it better this afternoon or tomorrow.

But for now, I'm gonna set the next intentions for school, for work, for family. But precedent to that of course, is the clarity piece. Like if you don't have clarity about why you're doing what you're doing, what the broader goal is, then it becomes difficult to identify that intention piece. And I think where some confusion around intentionality comes in is that it can be defined in a macro context

or in a micro like, yes, I'm gonna work on my walls in my workout, like a micro intention. But the broader intentionality, like I'm going to express my potential as an athlete, that can be an intention also, but that becomes very vague, right? Like that's more, I think that speaks more to the clarity piece about identity and like your values

and intentionality on the day in day out, I'm writing in my journal or I'm doing, I'm like, I'm practicing this, mental habit of being in the mindset of intention focused, I think works best when you are specific about little things. Yeah, and you nailed it. Like there's micro and macro and it can get confusing

when it's like, well, my intention, I've had athletes say, My intention is to be awesome. Yeah, or like, I wanna go to the Olympics, but then wait, isn't that a goal? Or like, what do you mean by intention? And so it is something to clarify. Those are good questions. They're great questions.

And I honestly get humbled that they're asking cause it's like, oh wow, like I could even explore that a little bit more. Maybe I need to understand the difference between intention and goal setting or understanding micro intentions and macro intentions because it is, we attach meanings to words too. So, whatever we attach to the word intention

will be our trajectory of that. Like you said, if intention is to someone, if intentions yoga and saying, your own's before and after yoga, and that's their view of what an intention is, then we have to kind of dissect what that is because they are a swimmer and they need to learn and maybe a different way to do that.

These are just questions I get and things that I hear. And I think it's very interesting because it allows us to explore different avenues of what people identify with intentionality and their purpose and their reason for doing the sport that they're doing or competing or performing and whatever they're doing.

Exactly, spending so much time on something, but I bring it back to a deeper purpose and what I call the deeper why. If you don't have your deeper why, and many, all my athletes go through this exercise every year and it takes four, six, seven, eight tries for them to get to their deeper why.

The cliche is I wanna be a good role model for my kids. Well, guess what? Your kids are not up at 4 a.m. when you need to get out of bed and get this workout done. So they're not seeing you. I wanna be a good role model. I wanna be visible, show them how hard I work. Well, that doesn't work.

I think that's usually disingenuous. Also because it's taking so much time away from your kid. Like it's probably harming your kid more than inspiring them. But to me, that's not it. And I challenge them. That's not your deeper why. Like when things get difficult and when the excuses rise,

you need your deeper why, that anchor to sort of work you through those rainy mornings when you don't wanna get up. There's nobody watching you there. You need to be anchored in something. And the deeper why, if you keep asking that why enough, it goes to a pretty vulnerable place. But if you understand that, right?

And that validation, that lack of attention that you got as a child, that there's so many different things in here. I'd wanna be visible. I wanna be visible. And when I'm out there training, people recognize me. Well, good, okay. Now let's start working from there.

I mean, again, you're right. It is a lot of life coaching, but it makes them better athletes. Yeah, I mean, I would assume that a person's, an individual's ability to answer that question well, correlates pretty closely to how well self-integrated they are. Like if you've done enough interior work,

then you are, you know, you're able to like, you know, feel yourself in a way where you're gonna be able to honestly answer that question. But if you're just, if you've never explored your interior self, then you're gonna have the flip answer. But that's why I love endurance training. Which is why this is life coaching and you have become a life coach.

I mean, listen, Chris, if somebody had asked you at age, you know, 19 or 20 or however old you were, when you were getting ready to go to the Olympics, like what's your why? You would have told them to fuck off. Yeah, I would have. Well, but that's the thing is I did have some work in there and I still ignored it.

I'm not saying that you're unique in that. I would say most, you know, 19, 20 year old out, it's like. Mine was like, well, I just, because I don't want anyone to be mad. You know, so it's like the why can be something totally interesting too. And it's different in when I'm 19. Someone's why could be not so healthy.

Yeah, that's why your deeper why at 18 is different than your deeper why at 28 is different than my deeper why now. You gotta unlearn the conditioning. The tears that ran down my face when I finally won Kona wasn't because I finally won Kona. It was like, oh my gosh, I just stripped back a lot of emotions that were lurking

that I was hiding behind in this training. And it was like, oh my God, now that's gone. And I'm stuck still with myself. Oh, we're going there. Yeah. But that's also why I love endurance training is that it forces people to spend time with themselves. And the Z2 aspect, you and I texted a little bit about this.

What I love about it too, is when you have to go that easy, you have to learn patience. You have to forgive yourself and you open the door to like letting go. And then you have to let go of your ego. You have to let go of your ego. When you let go of your ego, all of a sudden you're spending a lot of time

in working in instead of working out because you don't feel this is a workout. It's too easy. I'm barely breaking a sweat. Everybody's walking past me and I'm supposedly running, sweat. Everybody's walking past me and I'm supposedly running, right? But that vulnerability right there,

that cracks the door open very gently. But how do you, you mentioned a minute ago, like the outpouring of emotion when you won Kona and the realization that you had been using your training to kind of run away from certain aspects of yourself. Clearly in endurance sports, you're gonna have the person who is in it to like, as a buffer to prevent having to look at them.

You know, it's like, it can be a healthy path towards self-actualization or it can be quite the opposite. And as somebody who's coached a lot of people, I'm sure you've seen every variety of that. Like how do you identify- There's a newsletter on it. Just today.

Spiritual bypassing. Yeah, like you just don't wanna go home because you're not getting along with your partner or whatever. It's so real. What are you running from? Yeah, and we get this instant validation of doing something really hard because it's the training, right?

We just ran this far, we swam this far, we biked this far, we rocked this far, but it's still below the surface is still the same issues, right? And you eventually, you can't avoid it. Like you have to turn around and quit facing the sun and look back at the shadow because it's there. It's always there.

It's always sitting there bubbling below the surface. And as I wrote today, you gotta go through the mud in order to get there and the mud. And unfortunately, not unfortunately, I can't even use that word properly. When I had that with Kona, it was like, it was the validation that I could, that I was missing so much with swimming

and that I was never good enough. And now I'm good enough, but the fine good enough. And it leaves me in the same exact place. You're still the same guy. Yeah, exactly. And it's what we talk about with goal setting in general. Like, great, you got to point B, now you're at point B. Right, so now there's always going to be a now what. Point C and then point D.

So that's why the deeper why and a purpose ties into it. Then goals just become validation markers along the path, your path, to where you are going as a human being. And many of us don't really know where that path leads. But once you start walking, that path starts unfolding for you. And you can't manipulate how that path,

where it's gonna turn. You just have to take that path and trust yourself and believe in your past narrative that it's worked for you so far, keep doing the work and the path as it was meant to unfold for you, will worked for you so far. Keep doing the work and the path as it was meant to unfold for you, will unfold for you. Yeah, trusting that. It's a hard thing to think about.

I actually had this conversation with Luke Tyburski who was on your podcast a while ago, just about the whole running from your emotions and what's going on in your life and everything. And I mean, I could talk about this for hours, but what you're saying is it really resonates because I think a lot of people think it's an either or, like you have to either face your demons

and quit everything you're doing or just keep going and ignore it until you finally break. And I firmly believe that you can do both. It's like, you're gonna work to understand yourself and what it is that your why is. I love that. And understand it. And again, going back to what I was saying at the beginning

is I'm in this place where I'm really exploring how we can make both things possible. Because as an extremist in my mindset, my whole life, you know, oh, it's either or. You can't, it's not a both and thing. It's either or. Like I either need to be doing this or I need to be doing this.

I either need to be facing my demons and quit everything or I need to be going here and just see how hard. Or also make it harder on myself. Exactly right. I'm gonna face my demons and therefore work my hair. No, that's not gonna be helpful either. You sort of have to work with both personas within you. Like we all have the yin and yang, the chaos and order,

the whole, it's always within us. And the more we become vulnerable to accept that, that there are days where I'm just facing the shadow and there's days I'm facing the sun, but I'm still there. And so, and again, our opportunity every day to work with that a little bit is what I love about training. Because again, working in versus working out,

this isn't just for our body. This is for our mind and our spirit every day too. And the more we recognize that, the more you can click into it, 15, 20 minutes into a run, 15, 20 minutes into a swim where your mind starts wandering and the ego is suppressed

and the subconscious comes, arises and you are having a different conversation with yourself. And it is very powerful. If you can click into that two, three, four, five times a week, it's amazing. Yeah, I think intentionality can be applied, not just in the context of what you're trying to get out of a training session in terms of technique and fitness.

Oh, I'm gonna make sure that I'm striking in this way or holding my shoulders in a certain way, but also on the working out and working in piece to say, I'm going to use this time to take control of that conversation in my head and not just allow it to be, sometimes it's good for it to just, to be in that ruminative space because stuff comes up. But other times I found like,

I'm gonna be more directed about this, like, and really focus or think about, or direct my mental energy around being honest with myself about what it is that I'm avoiding right now. Like, what, like, oh, I wanna go out and do this session because why, right? Like, because I don't really out and do this session because why? Like, because I don't really feel like answering

all those emails. It can be as simple as that, or it can be like, I had this thing with this person and it's been bugging me and that's why I didn't sleep well last night. Like, where's my part in that? Like, what character defect keeps like recurring that's causing this kind of issue

because this isn't the first time I've had an, you know, like there's a whole opportunity there to explore, right? And I think to the extent that you can like leverage the working in part of working out for self-improvement, like it's just, it's such an unbelievably powerful template for that, but I think it all begins with being honest with yourself about whether your interest in exploring

whatever fitness journey you're on is coming from a place of avoidance or curiosity and exploration, right? And I think most people don't even ask themselves that question. If you can't be honest with like, and it's okay if you're using it to run to like, look, it's so uncomfortable over here,

I wanna go over here for a while. Like, that's fine, there's no judgment on that. But I think recognizing that is the first step towards moving in the direction of resolving whatever psychological, mental, emotional, spiritual conundrum that you're facing and that we all face. Chris is gonna disagree.

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the first step because I think curiosity and exploration gets you out there and start setting up your future goals and your future version of yourself that you desire to be, potential comes from a sense of curiosity and exploration, right? Because I'm curious about my potential of who I could be. I have things inside of me, signals, emotions inside of me

that I still want to express as an athlete or in any realm. And as you're on that journey, I think that's also a time where it bubbles up where you start realizing, huh, I'm sort of avoiding things. But I think it's important to take that first step down the path and start getting out there, whether it's in training or whether it's in mindfulness, whether it's in any type of other sort of work with a therapist and so forth.

It's more about tapping into the curiosity and following that string. And then I think the avoidance question can start coming up. Then the time with working in can start coming up because again, the scaffolding is set. And what I mean by that is when we start training, especially as masters athletes, not when we're younger,

but the training is a scaffolding. What happens inside that scaffolding is unique to everybody. I might be doing a lot of mental work. Other people might be doing physical work. Other people are doing spiritual work. The training is the placeholder. And what's being rebuilt in that building?

Is it a complete rebuild? Is it some sort of remodeling, right? But the training sets up the opportunity every day to spend time with yourself. And you might not want to go in that day. You might just sort of do a little paint job. But other days you're like knocking down walls and you are doing some serious work inside

and the tears come or the aha moment comes. And you're like, wow, I hadn't realized how badly I'm avoiding. Or, you know, you're listening to a podcast and something you say, for example, just trigger something, boom, pause the podcast, keep rolling and just work with that sentence or with that emotion that just came up.

But again, I think it's important that that curiosity sets up the training, the scaffolding, so that you have an opportunity every day or every few days if you're not training every day to sort of do that working in and working out. Yeah, I like that. I think that's right. For sure.

And I'm gonna throw another thought in here. And this is only because I had a different way of feeling my way through my sport. And even after experiencing conversations after our last conversation, Rich, just of the power of what people experience through their bodies that they're not listening to. You know, sure, you have people that don't feel injuries or don't hurt ever. And I mean, I would love to know who that is. Please tell me your secrets. But no, but the main thing that I notice is, like, how can you really go in and tap in and understand what it is that you're doing, avoiding or curate, you know, like which direction I'm going if you're actually not even present in your physical self. And I think that can be the first sign is learning how to connect to our actual physical beings to see where we feel completely

disconnected from ourselves. And that can be in training where you're literally feel disconnected in training. I mean, that was my favorite term when I felt off was I just feel disconnected. Like my arms feel like they're doing something completely different from my legs and my body is feeling exhausted, fatigued. I'm having weird dreams and night sweat, all these things. And it's like, those things tell me what I'm avoiding. So that can be a cue into kind of what's happening. And I think there's a lot of intellectual athletes and then there's a lot of somatic and sensory athletes. And I think speaking to both in this space, like if I can speak to the sensory side where it's like, you feel something off, don't ignore that. Tap into that and go into that and understand where am I sitting right now?

Am I avoiding or am I actually doing something because I want to? Or what is my why? Back to that question again. I think a lot of people use that as information and it is a powerful tool that I think we forget and we quickly try to jump to the mind and what it is that we just know how to do and what we've heard and what other people are doing, if that makes sense. So really getting to know ourselves because I'm gonna be different from you.

I'm gonna be different from Rich. Rich is different from you. You're different from Rich. And so it's like, however, what works for one person may not work for the other. But integrating the things that you hear and the things that you learn experience in a way that does allow you to better yourself

and kind of figure out what path you're on, if that makes sense. Well, we're holding a lot too. Of course, yeah. We're holding and being able to recognize. And again, there's going to be many people who are like, not ready for that. Don't hear anything, don't feel anything.

I've tried working in, it's just not there. And that's totally fine. Again, it will in, it's just not there. And that's totally fine. Again, it will happen when it's time to happen. Right? It took me a long time. And it may not even happen in a way of awareness. It may kind of go up in a loop and back around and then figure it out from a different avenue.

And then you get smacked in the face with a pandemic or some sort of traumatic experience and boom, it all unlocks. Everybody has, we're all so similar in so many ways. It's just, we're on a different journey, but we're all going the same place and that is our path. One of the underappreciated aspects of fitness and why as human beings we're drawn to it is that it's one of the few things

and increasingly so now where we can just be completely present with ourselves. You have to be in the now to like do the thing. So whether you're Alex Honnold, hanging on the side of a whole cap without ropes, or you're trying to maintain a certain pace in a set of 100s, it doesn't matter. Like when you hit a certain sort of pain threshold

or exertion level, you can't be thinking about anything else other than just executing on what you're doing. And it forces like you to just be with yourself. And there's something incredible about that. Like I just got this cold plunge recently and I've started cold plunging. And, you know, I was realizing as I was doing it, I was like, oh, people love this because

when you're freezing fucking cold, like you can't think about anything else. You're just like present with yourself. Like it accelerates that. You're like, immediately you drop into that. You don't have to like meditate for 20 minutes or go out on a three hour run. Like it allows you to drop right into that experience.

And I think that there's power in that. But I think that's the beautiful aspect of sport. And maybe we're like, we don't even know that that's why we're pulled towards it. But I think when the more you can kind of recognize that, that's where that little, like, that like nuclear reactor sits in the middle for change in other aspects of your life.

Yeah, and I think what we're talking around here is again, that curiosity to be on an edge of what you deem possible and that challenge skill sweet spot, like when you're saying holding a certain set, we want to know we're always curious about next, about potential, we're just forward driving creatures. I mean, that's in our DNA. And so being in that challenge skill sweet spot

allows us to be fully present. Because if we're not challenged, you're gonna wander. Or if it's too challenging, you're also gonna wander. The whole thing falls apart, right? But it's gotta be right there. And that's where you're present. Exactly. That's where Alex Honnold is. that's where you're present. Exactly.

That's where Alex Honnold is. He's not bored. Yeah, well, he's talked about that very thing many, many times. Yeah, it's that incremental push. And I think there's a constant, I mean, neurochemistry just there with all the dopamine hits and all the things that are happening in your body and mind

that when you're right in that sweet spot, that sets up that complete presence because you have to, you need all your cognitive load towards that, which brings us back to intention, which why you need the deeper why and have clarity so that you can get into that space and you set your challenge skill spot because via the clarity and the goal setting,

you are now able to drop into intention properly. Yeah. That's why there should be buffers on each end of practice. I'm just, I think about it so much just about how that would have been so powerful to have that sandwiched in there where- Especially for us as swimmers in college or in high school as well, if it just became part of our routine. Right. Because we were so routine oriented. It's like, of course I do five minutes

of setting intentions before every workout. Yeah, you don't even really understand that. And then when you're 50, you're still doing it for every little thing. Like how do I want my day to go? Yeah. Well, I think I could imagine walking on the pool deck at the University of Florida

and being terrified for the workout that was about to happen. So all the things that you're carrying into workout and then you leave the things that you're carrying out, it's like, if that can somehow be streamlined into maybe a way to transition better, I think we could all get into these places of this narrow road that we wanna be on

with intentionality a little bit better because it just becomes an experience that you're used to after a while. You don't even think about, okay, now I'm setting an intention. Like you don't do that. It just becomes a natural thing that you do. And how do I want this to go?

Exactly. It's a constant conversation in my head. Like, how do I want this to go? How do I want tomorrow to go? How do I want this next few hours to go? And it's natural. It doesn't feel like a forced pressuring situation with yourself anymore. Like, how do I want this to go? How do I want tomorrow to go? How do I want this next few hours to go? It doesn't feel like a forced pressuring situation with yourself anymore. The conversation is just a natural conversation

with yourself where it feels like you're having- And the beauty is there's no judgment with it if it's automated or if it's part of what you do anyway. Then you don't judge yourself when it didn't go well or you didn't achieve your intentions. Because guess what? I'm gonna set intentions for something later on today or for tomorrow.

Or so that because you have the reps, you know that it's not gonna be perfect. And so the judgment comes out of so much of this because you're like, you know what? I did pretty good today. I got three of my five intentions. Great. And transitioning into real life after sport,

that's very helpful. Whereas you're judging yourself nonstop or nothing's enough and this and this and this, instead of being able to cultivate that while you're an athlete. And powering through the whole narrative we have as kids and young adults growing up as athletes, just power through and back to the signals

and what your body's telling you and what your mind's telling you and all that. Like that emotional intelligence that we're missing there. Of course, there's a maturity aspect. I get that. But it can definitely be guided a little bit better, right? One of the things I say in my coaching is I wanna set the conditions for success.

That's the buffers. Like you're setting the lane so that even if you hit the wall on the side a little bit, you're still going back on the lane. And setting the conditions for our young athletes success is part of this of like, you know what? What is it you wanna achieve today? And look, you achieved it.

Now let's move on to the next day. And sort of once they're done with that athletic, their athletic lives that they can sort of say, oh, well now I can still take all these skills and I'm actually ahead because I know how to do all this. Setting the conditions for their future success. I mean, it's such a brutal transition. Oh my gosh, that's the goal.

Right. The idea of being, that intuition that you develop, like we've talked about this before, but like when you're swimming all the time, it's like, if you're doing a set of hundreds, like, you know, when your finger hits the wall, you know exactly what your split is and you know what your heart rate is.

Like you're so connected, right? You're like, oh, that was definitely a 50. We have nothing else to do in the pool. It's like staring at a black line. Like everybody else has nature to look at. But another thought with that, like the average person is gonna say, I don't know how you swim that much.

Like you're four hours a day staring at the black line. Like it's so boring. But when you bring intention to it, there's nothing boring about it. Like when you break it, oh, I'm gonna do this crazy set. Like I'm scared, I'm nervous. I have anticipation.

I have dread maybe all of these emotions, but like boredom isn't really part of it because there's so much packed into whatever's gonna happen in that two hour. You're not just jumping in the pool and swimming back and forth, like aimlessly without any plan or anything like that. So like just disabusing people of that idea.

But then you set the intention that creates empowerment and agency because you're not just reacting. The coach says do this and you just respond and do it. You're trying to inject that experience with, you know, an added veneer of like, of, you know, how you wanna come out of it. Like you're taking control of it, right?

As opposed to just, you know, reacting and doing what somebody else tells you to do. But on that piece of like moving into the real world, like if you can take that highly integrated, very attuned, you know, mind body connection that you have when you're at the peak of sport and apply that to like the workplace. Like when you were talking about this somatic,

you know, a feeling athlete, like if you go into your work and like, you're like, I feel off, like not just saying, we'll tough it out or whatever, but like, what is this telling me? Like, what is off? Like, maybe I should value that a little bit more. It's much more of a feminine energy.

Like dudes are like, you don't wanna hear about this, but if you can really listen to that and try to understand what it's telling you in the way that you would as an athlete at the elite level, what would that mean? And how would that translate into how you're experiencing your life? I had a really interesting conversation about this

yesterday, actually, speaking of this with my therapist, how you're experiencing your life. I had a really interesting conversation about this yesterday actually, speaking of this with my therapist, we were talking about transitioning from sport and how again- Which is something Chris is never gonna do by the way. Yeah, he's gonna be literally 100. I don't need the list of this. He's like, I'm done.

What are you guys talking about? But we were talking, we were essentially talking about how the. What are you guys talking about? Yeah. But, you know, we were talking, we were essentially talking about how the same things we've been talking about, the grind, the go, go, go, I'm gonna crush this and, you know, power through all these things that make us great athletes

also make us great in the workplace because you get a lot of shit done on a great timeline. And you get validated for it by your peers. Right, validated for it, but then the same thing happens and you hit the wall and you burn out and you get tired and you don't want to look at social media and you have nothing to say. And there's just, you know, all of the same things continue to happen. And then you go to your boss and say, I need a rest week. Exactly. And then that doesn't work. So, right. We got to dial back my hours. Yeah, we're cutting back two hours a week.

That's a product we should figure out how to integrate into this normal conversation. We need to periodize my work schedule. But it's so real, like, you know, but it's like the, again, the two things, the both and, it's like both can be true. You can work your ass off in the workplace or get whatever done you wanna get done

and create this business and build all these things. But at the same time, the same rules apply. The same things apply. And so this middle space of that transition point where we become disconnected from understanding how to tap into that feeling, I've seen it across the board with all of my peers that have retired from professional sport.

They go ham into their life, whatever it is, and eventually this continues to happen. So the question is, and I still haven't figured this out. I don't think anyone's gonna figure anything out, but like, what's that transition space that you can allow people to know that they can still be great and power through and push it, but also take the rest, take the time to understand yourself, what your needs are

before you do end up gassed out on the side of the road again and the cycle continues and you're still running from your emotions and you're still doing this thing. Well, I think as a coach, you can shoulder that responsibility and create that partnership dynamic with the athletes that you're working with, right?

Like I would suspect that that's gonna break down between the people who, like that athlete who's making that transition, if that athlete had a coach that just told them what to do and they either did it or they were out, that person's gonna have a harder time as opposed to the coach athlete partnership where there's a communication and there's a back and forth

and that's a dynamic relationship. That person is gonna be much more adaptable to a changing environment, right? Conditions again, yeah, condition responses. I like to say how you do one thing is how you do everything. And so it starts with those, like you said, with if that's how you were as an athlete,

it's going to exactly carry over into the rest of your life. But I think it's back to a control thing because we want to control the outcome in swimming, in sports, in athletics, because we've been conditioned and we've had past narrative and validation of this that you, by doing this today, you're controlling your future outcome.

The further we get into life, we realize there's no controlling the future outcome. You can work at it. You can help guide yourself in that direction, but there's still so much that can happen. There is no control. And doing everything, especially in the work world as, or as adults

with the outcome and success in mind. And that's the only reason you're gonna do it, sets you up for failure, right? You can't just take on an endeavor, knowing, guaranteeing success. Oh, if I hire a coach, let's say I see it in my world, I am hiring you to guarantee my success. And I say to them, no, that's not gonna work. First of all, you have to do the work.

And second of all, I don't want you on this journey if you're doing it with an outcome in mind. Right. And so if we learn earlier on to let go of control and be more vulnerable, and again, allow this path to sort of unfold for us. And I know the commentary around this is always like, Chris, life doesn't work like that,

where you just say the path will unfold for you. Actually it does work that way. It does work, but it's hard to understand that. And all I'm saying is we can't try to manipulate the path. We can do the best in the present moment to continue with our best foot forward on that path. And that's trusting ourselves. Too often in as athletes, all our life up until we're 18, 19,

we didn't trust ourselves. We trust what a coach told us or what the system told us, or this is how you're gonna get through. You get it from states, the national, the regional, to, you know, and that's how you work. You don't have to trust yourself, but in the real world, you have to trust yourself. You have to believe in yourself and just trust

that the work that you're doing and that the path you're taking will lead you eventually to where you need to go. So, it's a worthiness thing too, knowing that you don't need to be validated from that to feel like you're worth a damn. And that's a big thing that I hear from a lot of retired athletes. We do webinars and I don't know if webinars is the right word,

powwow kind of things in our space where we have a group of retired athletes come in and we all have a conversation about this, just the transition. And it's incredible to see everyone feel very similar about their worthiness. And if they accomplish X, Y, Z in their career or in their projected family life or in their,

we buy the house, we do this, or I get this raise, or I make this, or I start my own business. It's like, it's all this feeling of, well, that's an accomplishment. And that's what I'm used to because that's what I was conditioned to believe about myself and my work. And you were loved and approved for that.

Exactly. Like, you know who Jessica Leahy is? She wrote this book called The Gift of Failure. She's an educator. And she talks about this all the time. Like with, she teaches young kids and she will, and she goes and she tours schools and she does stuff with the kids without the parents.

And she'll be like, raise your hand if, like everybody closed their eyes because she doesn't want the kids influencing each other. And like, raise your hand if you think that your parents love you more when you get better grades. And it's like 85% of the kids, right? And so as an athlete, of course, your validation is coming from performance

when you have a coach that's gonna give you that approval. And even when parents are doing the best job possible, they're gonna like, when their kid does something good, they're gonna like be excited about it, right? So yeah, that all gets internalized. So of course your whole sense of self gets wrapped up in like how well you're doing. And then suddenly you graduate out of sports

and you're in the real world. A, you don't have a coach anymore. Yeah, the accountability is low. It's just you, right? Sometimes you do have a coach. Rarely anymore. Yeah, the accountability is low. Maybe, maybe. It's just you, right? Sometimes you do have a coach. Yeah, that's you. Rarely though. Yeah, no, I agree.

In fact, that's something I think should change. Like, why, you know, it's like, why shouldn't we continue to have coaches our whole life for the things that we're trying to do better at? But it's unbelievably disorienting. Yeah, it is. And I am a firm believer in coaching your whole life, somehow, some way, whatever realm it is.

Because you need that accountability, especially if you've been raised that way to be seen for your accomplishments, somebody that can also not just see you for your accomplishments, but help you grow out of that space of needing that validation for what it is that you've done. And it's very, very difficult.

I mean, you were talking about the transition. Well, we don't know, you may. I mean, you were talking about the transition. Well, we don't know, you may never transition, but we were talking about the transition too. It's not just sports. This is across the board with any major life event that happens, these transitions are inevitable. And so, I have friends that have had babies and it's like the postpartum transition and things like that are just so intense

and so difficult to work through for some people, not everyone, because it is this Mecca of what you set out to think that you should feel. And then something ends up different than what you should feel too. Then that causes some sort of depression, which a lot of athletes go through

when they're transitioning. Well, I thought it was gonna be easy. I thought it was gonna be a success again. I thought I was gonna be at the top of my field right away again. Or I thought this again. And it's like, oh damn, I'm not. I gotta start over.

I gotta sweep floors at Lululemon on Saturday and Sunday, like shit. Like that isn't what I signed up for. Or like Lolo Jones working I signed up for. Right. Or like Lolo Jones working at the juice bar. Exactly right. Oh, that documentary hit me hard with that because I could just feel her in that experience

because there is this expectation conundrum in your head of what things will look like because of this amazing thing that you've just achieved. And so again, across the board, I think we set ourselves up in that way. And rightfully so, dream big, want great things. Well, it's in our DNA. Exactly.

It's in our evolution, like that you get validated for standing out in the tribe and that those behaviors and characteristics and values allowed you to be a better member. And so it's very deep in us. But again, like you're saying, it's when you get the rug pulled out from under you, like let's say the Lolo Jones example,

that's a little bit different than a transition of, don't get me wrong. I have plenty of athletes who come to me. I'm having a baby in six months, but after six months, it'll take me about three months to get back. And then I wanna qualify for Boston. It's like, whoa, all right.

We gotta work through this a little bit differently. And I'd like you to know that that transition, like you just described, there's going to be a lot more. You are not going to be the same person on the other side of having that child than you are now. And despite what you think, you won't. You're just a different person. And yeah, the transitions in that space

become the part that you are connected deepest to yourself. That's the vulnerability and a space where if you took the time to look into that, that there's the growth. In that mud is the growth. Right. But I just want to go to Boston, Chris. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can't, there's no way you could ever shoot something like that down either. Like, I'm not going to say, well, no, that's, well, let me break it to you. You know, that's going to be pretty tough. I don't shoot it down, but I say, we'll cross that bridge.

Of course. Yeah. Like you have to hold space for the other version of themselves that's gonna come out on the other end of that because it's gonna be somebody that could even achieve more than what they've just set out to give you. And be the growth that is possible that I get actually excited because I'm like, you know what?

You don't get it yet. But if you kick out on the other side of this and you can grow from this that I have my mitts on you for the next nine months. Hopefully you'll kick out going, Oh my gosh, I had no idea, but now I'm armed so much better for my future as a mother, as a athlete, postpartum,

as I can avoid a lot of physical and mental difficulties because I've been told the big secret post children. Like it is hard. It is lonely. I'm disconnected from my body. I have no clue what's going on in my life. I mean, there's so much going on there. But if you have somebody that maybe not a guy like me,

but there's plenty of professionals out there to say, you know what, this is all part of it. This is what to expect, but at least educating them on that. Like this is out there, be ready for it. And you think you might be prepared, but when your mother and mother-in-law finally leave and you're alone in the house and you can't sleep and you've totally look at your body

and you're not getting any training done, you know, like, that's when things start going south. And it's hard to prepare. I mean, you can prepare people for these things, but everyone's experience is going to be different through that transition, no matter what. Yeah, that's why you just said with experience and her going into those classrooms,

I think the important thing there is too, is like you said, allowing ourselves to fail. And a lot of good coaching in my opinion is exactly that. Allow setting the conditions and the environment for you to fail and having a guide, a mentor, a coach to say, you know what? That was expected. You should be here.

And that is awesome. Now, what are we gonna do with it? How are you as an athlete learning to go forward from this using what you just experienced with me helping you along the way, guiding you forward, failing forward so that then you're gonna be a better, smarter, stronger, better athlete post this. But you have to go through those failures.

Right. Yeah, it has to be a tactile experience for that individual. You're performing as a coach, some form of inception because you could just say, here's what you need to do. Why aren't you doing this? But the letting go and the allowing allows that person to then, you know,

see where those edges are or whatever or fail. And then they can like take ownership of it in a different way. Like they get it in a way they wouldn't if they were just trying to follow your lead all the time. Yeah, there's a theory out there that, you know, I think it was a quote by Bismarck who said, you know, I don't wanna learn through experience.

I wanna learn through other people's experience so I can avoid those mistakes. No, in my opinion, no, because I am incorporating, I'm learning, I'm working in and working out when I'm going through those failures. I'm able to analyze it, feel it mentally, physically, spiritually, completely different going through that. Bismarck didn't have teenage daughters.

Exactly. That's a good one. That's very true. Three of them. I mean, look, I'm a woman. I can speak for that side of it. Cause it is very true. I think there's like when you're saying,

you know, he wants people to avoid these mistakes before they go into it. I get so frustrated when I hear people wanting advice or telling me how to do this or please tell me how to do this right now. And it's something I'm working on not getting frustrated with, but it is something that is difficult

because I just so badly wanna just say, you have to learn this through your own experience and take and integrate things that other people have said and showed you so that you can then integrate it into your own body and your own experience. It's like, you don't wanna be the next Serena Williams, you wanna be Coco, like you wanna be your own body and your own experience. It's like, you don't wanna be the next Serena Williams. You wanna be Coco. Like you wanna be your own athlete.

And I think that that is something I'm so passionate about. And I get all the feels about that because it's a powerful thing as we evolve in society. And there's a lot of information out there. And there's a lot of people telling you how to do different things. And coaches telling you, this is the way to do it. And it's like the ones that can walk alongside you and allow you to fail forward and allow you to make your own mistakes. And-

It frustrates people though. It's very frustrating for sure. It's hard to be in that position. Well, but it's also frustrating for the athlete. I'm used to watching it now because it just, you know, it's very predictable. But A, there's an industry out there of coaches who will shortcut it with you. That's my job. You hack the system by working with me. I'll get you around those shortcuts.

Well, A, in the endurance world, we know that especially doesn't work. But B, it's also the athlete, the person, the coachee thinks that because they hired you, they get to jump ahead in the line, ahead in the path of life. And it's like, no good coaching is mentorship, right?

Being a few steps ahead maybe and saying, you know what, when you grab that branch, be careful. You're still gonna grab the branch as you're climbing the tree, but just heads up. Like you're gonna do it, but I'm also- Or what I like to always do is like, imagine a good coach is the guy who stands behind or the girl who stands behind you

and just takes your shoulders and goes, adjust this way just a little bit. You're still going your path, but just a little nudge here and there so that you again are heading with those buffers, bumpers, setting the conditions to get to where you wanna go. What kind of athlete were you? Did you want the answers or did you like?

No, I was such a scared little kid. And that's the funny thing is I had, I just talked about this, I think on my podcast about how I never won anything. I always had bigger, stronger athletes around me that were just awesome. They were just, you know, six foot two big, I mean, in like middle school, like these icons.

And I was always just a little kid, just, I was never, I always felt never good enough. Part of the tears back then too. Like it just was never good enough. I was just always below the surface of feeling good enough. And so I stood there with the puppy eyes, did everything. And oh, you want me to sleep more? Okay.

And then I tried everything, you know? So I was very compliant, but I also loved the structure and the discipline. So yeah, I don't, I think I was coachable, but I think that the coaches were bored with me because they're like, he's just too like, oh my gosh, go away. Yeah, it isn't, you know,

compliance will take you pretty far. Like there's the person who can read all the books and they get it and they actually apply it in their life. And like, you know, they can become amazing in all different kinds of things. And it's the person who is the creative thinker who's pushing the boundaries and like refuses to comply. That's the problem athlete or the problem student.

And you know, when you're a kid and you see that guy, you're like, don't be like that person. In my experience, quite often, those become the most amazing people because they're trying new things and they're refusing to just take things at face value. And that can go off the rails, of course, but in the right circumstances,

they become the most interesting people, the most successful people, the most creative people in so many ways. So a lot of it is disposition. Some people are just wired in different ways, but I think about that a lot. Like I've talked about that with John Moffat. Like he was like that as a swimmer.

And I was like, how come he's not doing what the coach said? Or the kid in middle school who was cracking jokes and then becomes like, you know, Jonah Hill and gets Academy Award nominations. It's like, you know, he got thrown out, tossed out of Boulder, like his first year of college. But you know, when those people find their right lane, they become amazing.

Or as I like to say, the lane that they were destined to be in anyway. And as children that comes out anyway, there's not enough narrative and dirt in the way for their more natural self to come out. And that's where the kids we remember, they're like, wow, that kid was different or creative or always loud or always rambunctious

or couldn't sit still. But that was the true them before society sort of. Right, right. Yeah, like squeezed it out of them. You must be like this conform. Which is why it's like, okay, you might, if you're gonna grab that branch, you might wanna think about that.

Like when you were telling that story, you know, it reminds me of like sponsorship in AA, like doing this for many years. And it's like, you know, you get crazy calls and people are like, well, maybe you need to go out and drink some more, you know, like, let me know how that goes. Call me next week.

You know, it's like, I'm not telling you not to do, you know, like, well, it sounds like you really wanna drink. So maybe you should. Allowing them to think about- Like they have to like make that decision for themselves. You know? For sure. I appreciate coaches like that though,

that I really do that allow you to, like you were saying, fail forward, make the decisions for yourself. And I think I was more of the John Moffat type myself. So I can only speak to that, but my brother's the exact opposite. He's very much play by the rules. So I grew up very close in age to somebody

that was exact opposite of me. And so it is interesting to have that experience as I reflect back now on coaching and what that looks like growing up and how that can evolve and change and how the athlete can also evolve and change. If they are someone that is a rule follower in this, they can use that to their advantage

if they choose to, to become great. That can actually play into their advantage in a way that I wouldn't be able to begin to become great. That can actually play into their advantage in a way that, you know, I wouldn't understand. I wouldn't be able to begin to understand, but there's a lot of that going on. But yeah, you have the athletes like John, where it's like- When that comes out in you though,

like what you're talking about, like either end of the spectrum, the rule follower or the more creative, again, once you're connected to what is your source and what is your path, you can just blossom. But if you just continue to ignore that, you're never going to find out. You're just gonna be bouncing from spot to spot.

And that's the classic, like, well, what are my destined to do? Or what is my path? Even in that question. Well, you gotta sort of get dirty and keep doing a variety of things to find that where that sweet spot is. And that's those first years from college

until like your mid thirties where you just gotta sort of, it's messy. It's meant to be messy. And I think we should disabuse people of this idea that you're supposed to just have it figured out. Right, right. You're never going to, and you're allowed to change as many times as you want.

And I hope you don't, right? We hope that we don't always have it figured out. Then there's no passion and purpose and failing forward and curiosity and excitement and what potential says, I don't have it figured out. I wanna keep going along that path. Yeah. That's like David Epstein's book range.

He has all these case studies of all these amazing people. And have you read that book? No. So, it kind of upends the 10,000 hour roll idea and looks at all these people who have excelled in a variety of walks of life from math and science to academics and sports and art and creativity. And the overwhelming majority of people

were people who were dabblers for a very long period of time. Like the Tiger Woods are few and far between, but I can't remember, is it Federer? Like one of the great tennis players was like a soccer player. Federer, yeah. Yeah, he did all these other things before he ended up specializing in like-

As was Rafa. Van Gogh and like all these people had like a million different jobs before they finally figured their thing out. And then all these people have like a million different jobs before they finally figured their thing out. And then all of those experiences, in retrospect all line up to inform the greatness that later blossoms. All paths usually lead to one eventually.

Exactly, there's that as well as the first part of your life and the second part of your life. And you can be a phenomenal exceptional mastery type of athlete or creative or musician or artist in the first part of your life. And you might then most cases, I'm not saying a hundred, you hit a wall. And then who are you going to be

the second half of your life? And that is the biggest challenge then, right? Because then like, I know Tiger's an easy example, right? Like the dominance, the athletic ability, the skill, the intelligence around it, but now still just golf, right? And of course, family and so forth. And I don't wanna, I don't know him

and I don't wanna judge that. I'm just saying the path runs out. And at some point you hit what's called that second mountain where you have to be the author of your own life, right? And where you tap into the things you've learned in order to then express your path, express the truth of who you are. And that's what to me is most fascinating as we get older.

And those first few years out of college and stuff where you're doing all those things, it's all tools for that second mountain when you wanna be the author of your own. We all have to follow some sort of rules with regards to making some money, a career path and so forth. But then once we kick out of that,

it's not just another car, it's now what can I do with this one great life? You know, Mary Oliver's quote. I mean, it's just, it gives you so much freedom, the fact that you dabbled, as well as that you were open to finding yourself and your path. And on this road, everyone just wants to be seen

for whatever they're doing in whatever timeline they're doing it on. And that's something across the board is sort of the underlying theme with all pursuits at any point in life, you know, and it feels, I suppose it feels terrifying to want to be seen for things in your life, you know, when you transition from sport or when you're in sport or when you're an athlete to a coach, it's like, we all just wanna feel seen for whatever it is that we're going through in that moment,

regardless of if it's succeeding or failing. And I mean, I know I'm going off on a little tangent here, but that to me allows us to feel safe enough to continue doing 10 different things like Van Gogh and trying to figure out your way. Otherwise you're just trying to nail something down in order again, to be validated so that people think you're great

or I gotta go get this big job and everyone loves what I'm doing. But if somebody can see you for your paths and what you're doing, it's such a different experience to feel accepted instead of validated. If you follow my- But you have to do that for yourself first. Totally.

And it's hard to see yourself. It's hard for people to look at themselves going back to the going in concept. It's hard to feel like you want to be seen for something. Even the ones, even the people in our lives that we would never think that about, that they have no problem being seen. Here I am.

There's still something in there to where they want to feel understood, seen, accepted, loved, all of these themes throughout the process. And it again, it's the underlying thing, the worthiness, the feeling seen so that you can feel like you can conquer and go through any stage or any version of yourself in your life that you're going to take on. Yeah, back to that positive present

that their past narrative has shown that it works validation. I feel accepted at that. I've done it before. I can therefore immerse myself in the now because I'm confident your past validation and narrative that it will work out in the future. So I can be creative.

I can be in the moment. I can be on that challenge skill sweet spot and not worry, right? Because I have been accepted. So it's, but that's also brings us back to the pandemic, right? With this whole year with a lot of people not being comfortable with being by themselves, right? Because you're back to, oh shit. Right. Now I have to see myself and accept myself. So there's the flip side of being seen too, just being seen by yourself. And this past year, there are countless people

in my direct world and extended world where I just sit there and I'm like, gosh, you should just spend some time with yourself. It's okay, right? But despite that, the pandemic could have provided an amazing opportunity for some of those people. And that's something I feel is often overlooked, spending time with yourself and your thoughts

and looking yourself in the mirror and being comfortable with that. It being comfortable, it's uncomfortable. It's terrifying for a lot of people. It's like the worst nightmare for many. It's very terrifying because it means- Set up your whole life to avoid having to do that. And then pandemic.

There are so many ways to hide behind it too. There's so many, again, going back to the sports or just hiding behind anything that you possibly can so that people don't really have to see you and your struggles and your vulnerabilities. You don't have to confront that. You don't have to confront that, yeah. You don't have to see it because if you see it,

then well, there goes the spiral of I'm a failure. I'm not enough. I'm this, I'm this. You see it, then that fear that's you're repressing might actually be real. Yep. As well as if I see it, then that fear that's you're repressing might actually be real. Yep. As well as if I see it, others must be seeing it. So then you get that sensation in there too.

Like, yeah, no, it's, but again, it's every now and then stopping, turning around and facing the shadow versus just constantly looking at the sun and striving for that. And like you said earlier, pausing and taking some time and checking in, like is everything okay? Yeah.

The power of the pause. I think that this is as good as time as any to hit pause on this then. Been going for a couple of hours. We can do that. Good, we can go for five more hours. To be continued, Chris, I think Coach's Corner has just been extended to Caroline.

Yeah. Did I make the cut? No, it's- I did it? Yeah. It's been nice. I'm joining the team. It's been great. Yeah. Great. I feel very fortunate to be here with you.

And quite honestly, we needed a female presence. Yeah, we did. We definitely did. You know, I provide the yin to the. I know. A little bit. Oh, I love it. Yeah, it's awesome.

This is great. Yeah, this is great. So Chris, you are planning on swimming across Lake Tahoe in August? Yeah, 21 miles. First two weeks in August is the window because the water is the warmest. Right, so 66, something like that.

Historically, it could get up to 68. Right, but no wetsuits. So you are gonna have to, you should put on a little bit of weight. I'm thinking about 12 to 15 pounds. There's no indication that you've done that so far. This is me in my swimming years too. It's like, oh, he's like,

what's the little kid doing here? Wait, so are you gonna coerce myself to come up here? I'm definitely coercing you because you needed to get ready for Catalina. I've done less swimming this year than I have in my whole life. I know. I mean, look, we could give it a go. Yeah.

You don't have to swim many times. You could just jump in once, right? What do you mean? Like what? We still need to talk about the structure of this race. So it's not looking, it's not a race. It's not a race. Oh, right.

Not looking for the record, which is 845 or something like that. Who has a record? It's a woman, which is awesome. Let's go. And a pretty fast guy tried it last year and he only went only 930. So that's a significant difference of what she said. Her name escapes me right now, but not looking to set the record.

So those who look to set the record start at midnight and swim through the night because of the winds on the lake. But I have no interest in swimming through the night. I like daylight and sunshine, again, warmer. So I was thinking of starting around 4 a.m. and swimming into sunrise. And then when the body is truly miserable, like six, seven hours in,

that the sun is at its highest point. And then you're done. And then eventually I'm done. I can still have dinner, a normal meal that night, go to bed versus being shelled for two days for a lack of sleep at night. So it'd be middle of the week on a Wednesday go to bed versus being shelled for two days for a lack of sleep at night. So it'd be middle of the week on a Wednesday because the lake's emptiest.

We have kayakers, we have boats and a bunch of swimmers, people jumping in for certain legs. So your brother should jump in and all that. Well, he can't come. Oh yeah, that's right. He has a wedding or something like that. But I mean, he'll be there for Catalina after. I'm down.

I just need, you know, spell out the deets. Tell me how much I'm doing here. It's 21 miles. Come up and pop in. Oh my God. Yeah, you should come up and pop in. I mean, it's so epic to swim in the middle of that lake. And it's beautiful.

I've done the relay, the Trans-Tahoe relay thing. But that goes across the short end. You don't go end to end. We start south at Camp Richardson and head north to incline. So it's sort of a diagonal length of the lake. Yeah, there's not really that much about it. We gotta stick to open water swimming rules.

So no wetsuit, no touching the boat and being fed. No being fed. Being fed versus touching the boat and grab any type of food. So it's a question of, you know, water polo, but it's like, you know, there's sort of like lacrosse stick type of extenders. Pass me the goo. Well that you'll find depending on your crew,

how well they throw it at you. Yeah, I'm like swimming to get it. Yeah, exactly. It's like a bobbing apple. Yeah, you actually swam 23 miles cause you kept having to get trash that people were throwing at you. Yeah, and you know, it's 37,500 yards about,

that gives you an idea. Look, I'm down, I need some, yeah, some prep. Yeah, and so in, yeah, some prep. And so in the prep, it's going to be a fair amount of lake swimming starting in June, late May, wetsuit just to get used to long lake swims. I spend my time at Donner three miles length.

So I'll do back and forth. So I'll build from six to probably all the way to, I won't go more than 16 in training. So it looks like we need a Donner repeat. Yeah. But we'll choose Tahoe. Yeah. Right.

And go longer there. That could be fun. Yeah. I feel like it would be nice to have something to look forward to other than Catalina. Right? Yeah. It's just night, you know, I just,

it's always annoying in the moment when you're like, I don't know, I can do it. And then you put it on there and you go and you're like, that was epic. Yeah, I know. So it's like, why not? I've never done anything that long. The kids say.

You've done 10 Ks though. I've done 10 Ks, but I mean, this is a lot longer than six miles. Yeah. So four times as long. And Caroline, you've got. November. Maybe.

Probably do this. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's. I think we'll be like three or four swimmers all doing the full length. I think it would be really cool. I mean, we could get another boat too and get, yeah.

You could just do a team too. For four swimmers, we'll want a second motorboat just to supplies and people back and forth and then a kayaker, so. And you've got Jamie Patrick involved. Yes. Didn't he try to go the outline of the lake one year? He runs the Lake Tahoe Swim Association

and he was the first person to do the double. Yeah, I remember that. So I crewed for him. Right. He swam down and back. Right. So, and then he tried the outline and he's done single crossings like four or five times.

How many miles is the perimeter? It's gotta be. Well, it's on the bike, it's 73 miles. So if you figure a little bit smaller, 68 or something. That's a whole different endeavor. And there's things that go through your head, obviously, when you're training this stuff,

but then I always keep saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's first do 21, Chris. I think we should do the backbone trail, maybe next year. Well, we're on it tomorrow. You're about to do that tomorrow with Billy Yang's crew, right? But I'm not doing the whole thing. You're just gonna do a section of it. Yeah, well, we're on it tomorrow. You're about to do that tomorrow with Billy Yang's crew, right? But I'm not doing the whole thing. You're just gonna do a section of it.

Yeah, I had a hamstring issue. How many people are, who's joining Billy for that? He has about 10 of his Patreon podcast listeners. Yeah. Who are good Ultramaners, yeah. I knew that he, there was right at the beginning of the pandemic, I think Courtney DeWalter was gonna go for like the record or something like that.

And that didn't happen. Well, because she did the, no, it's just basically listeners of his podcast and a couple of friends of his, but she then went on to run the whole length of Colorado or something like that, that full hundred mile run. She's like, forget that backbone stuff. And then I have about nine athletes doing it too. And it was, this came up in December where we's like, forget that backbone stuff. And then I have about nine athletes doing it too. And it was, this came up in December where we're like,

this is when the California shut down the second, the strict one happened. I was like, we need something through the winter to train for, to have to look forward to. And that coincides with the rest of people's seasons. And so in a major hub, LA having the Backbone Trail, which is beautiful and epic, 67 miles with 13,000 feet of elevation gain,

people can fly in, it's easy. And yeah, they're off tomorrow morning at 5 a.m. All right, I'll have to figure out what time it's gonna be passing through. The Backbone literally runs through my backyard. There you go. Rich is out there with a sign. But that's like around like the 30 mile mile.

A little recliner. A little recliner just going, you guys are crazy. You're looking good. You want some water? Throwing goos at them. The hose is over there. I mean, I'm all about also creating our own adventures.

So I think we could muster something up next year or so. All right. How's your running though? Are you able to run? I run a little. I don't run a lot anymore. Honestly, yeah. I don't run like you.

I'll go out and I'll run like three, four miles. Yeah, like I don't care. I think I'm also in a space where I don't need to run to feel like validated with myself, which took me a really long time. But now I just, I love like just going out and running for like two miles, jogging, walk, run. And I'll do like five to six miles,

just walk, run kind of jog, run thing where I have the intervals and the different thing. I like that way better than straight running. I can't do the concrete pound in the concrete for 10 miles. Forget that. I don't do that either. All right, well, let's do this again. Maybe in Donner since that's where it started.

We'll see. Full circle. Full circle. In the meantime, where should I direct people to go? ampcoaching.com for Chris. And then the weekly word podcast. That's right. Caroline.

I have website, carolinberkel.com and Instagram at Carol Berkel. I don't tweet and I don't do Facebook. You're a beast on Instagram though. I'm trying. I'm a little dull at the moment. It feels like the same thing every day kind of thing. I like your artwork.

I think your artwork is cool. How's that going? Yeah, it's great. You have like a clothing line and all that. I'm really loving it. Yeah, I actually started a swimwear line before COVID and then I had to stop because I was manufacturing in LA

and they were only taking current customers instead of new. But I could start again now and they're open. That's awesome. I mean, the artwork has been pretty remarkable. Thanks, yeah, it's a good balance to rise. It's like the end to it all. It's really nice. That I can imagine. Well, we'll talk more about that next time.

Yeah, new conversation. Good to see you guys. Love you both. Thank you. Thank you. Peace. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today,

visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books,

the meal planner and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Allie Rogers and Davey Greenberg. Graphic elements, courtesy of Jessica Miranda.

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Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.