The Rich Roll Podcast - Confronting the Climate Crisis with Margaret Klein Salamon, PhD

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

In the words of today's guest, "we are in a moment of acute collective suffering." I couldn't agree more. From our nation’s current civil rights struggles to a metastasizing global pandemic, the pain is real, exacerbated by acurrent political system that seems hardwired to exacerbate problems, yet rather inept at actually solving them. Fomenting a collective sense of existential dread is the dark beast of climate change, an accelerating background hum that can leave even the most optimistic among us feeling powerless. Because we are not nearing the edge of a cliff. We have already flung ourselves off. Hitting the brakes isn't enough. We need to jam the engine into reverse. We need an immediate call to action. We need a 'Manhattan Project' scale approach to reckon with the objective truth of our dire predicament. Margaret Klein Salamon, PhD is here to guide us.  A Harvard graduate and self-dubbed “climate psychologist,” Margaret is the founder and executive director of The Climate Mobilization, a volunteer organization dedicated to initiating a transformation of the economy, politics, and society to respond to the climate emergency. She is also the author of  Facing the Climate Emergency: How to Transform Yourself with Climate Truth, an emotional guide to processing our impending apocalypse, and the subject of today's exchange. Recorded remotely in early June, this is a conversation about our emotional response to climate change, and tools for contributing to the positive change required of us. It's about the intersectionality of the climate crisis--it’s ties to the pandemic as well as the protests. It’s about the inherent conflict between capitalism and environmentalism--and how we must de-couple corporate self-interest from the public good.  And it’s about how to deal with weaponized media and the way in which we are being spoon-fed lies by conglomerated industry over-invested in maintaining the status quo. But more than anything, this is a discourse about effective altruism--and the actionable steps we can take now to backtrack from the global suicide we are nearing. It's normal to feel disheartened. Action seems futile. And 2020 has maxed out our collective bandwidth when it comes to crises and revolutions. But embracing the truth and finding a way to contribute to positive change is not only mandatory -- it’s a path to hope. To girding your life with more meaning, inclusion and empathy. This is one of my increasingly rare audio-only podcasts. You can find the is streaming wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Margaret’s ideologies have totally reframed how I perceive, address, and talk about the climate crisis. My hope is that her words offer you a perspective that is honest and hopeful. But more than anything, my hope is that it inspires you to do something. Peace + Plants, Rich

The truth is, there's lots of really exciting developments in the climate space, but it's about scaling it all up at like by a thousand times. Something that only federal governments have the resources to do is the kind of system change. It's all there. It's all ready to go. We just have lacked the political will to implement it. That is significantly because of psychological factors. And I think what the climate emergency movement is doing is intervening in that, is doing, is intervening in that. Realizing that our enemy is not just fossil fuel companies and their huge network and industrial agriculture, but also denial. Denial and passivity are also enemies.

No one, no one can say this system is working. That's Margaret Klein-Solomon, No one, no one can say this system is working. That's Margaret Klein Solomon, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? I am Rich Roll. Indeed, this is my podcast. Good to be here with you guys today. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to suggest that for a litany of unfortunate reasons, our current political system seems hardwired to exacerbate problems and rather inept at actually solving

them, whether it's our current civil rights struggles or managing the pandemic, it can really leave one feeling disheartened. Then, of course, there is the dark beast of climate change lingering in the background, fomenting this sense of existential dread. Because as much as we would like to believe that we are nearing the edge of a cliff, the truth is that we've already flung ourselves off that cliff. This is not a situation that requires we hit the brakes. We need to put the engine in reverse. And I say this not to be cynical, not to over-exaggerate or be some kind of nihilist, although I think those would be normal responses, but rather as an immediate call to action. And the action demanded by us,

all of us, requires that we begin by reframing the situation, placing it in its proper objective context. Today, Margaret Klein-Solomon, PhD, is here to guide us. A clinical psychologist turned climate warrior, Margaret graduated from Harvard and received her PhD in clinical psychology from Adelphi University. She is the founder and executive director of the Climate Mobilization, which is a volunteer organization dedicated to catalyzing a worldwide climate emergency movement. In addition, Margaret is the author of Facing the Climate Emergency, How to Transform Yourself with Climate Truth,

which, in addition to providing the structure for today's conversation, is a really powerful emotional guide to processing the climate emergency alongside tools to help us all rise to this great challenge. Got a bunch more I want to say before we dig into this one, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how

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And recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, back to Margaret. So this conversation, which I should point out was recorded remotely back in early June, is about the intersectionality of the climate crisis, its ties to the pandemic, as well as the protests. It's about the inherent conflict between capitalism and environmentalism, and how we must decouple corporate self-interest from the public good it's about how to deal with weaponized media and the way in which we are being spoon-fed lies by the fossil fuels industry but more than

anything this is about effective altruism and the actionable steps that we can all take now to backtrack from the global suicide that we are precariously nearing. I know it can sound disheartening, and at times it feels like our personal actions feel futile. Our collective bandwidth, meanwhile, is maxed out when it comes to crises and revolutions. But embracing the truth, the hard facts, the figures, and finding a way to contribute to positive change is not only required of us, it really is in many ways this path to hope, to meaning, to inclusion, and also, very importantly, to empathy. Margaret's ideologies have totally reframed how I perceive, address, and talk about the climate crisis.

And my hope is that her words will offer you a perspective that is honest and that is hopeful. But more than anything, my aspiration is that this conversation helps to inspire you to do something. So this is me and Dr. Margaret Klein-Solomon. Margaret, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for taking the time today. I'm very excited to talk to you. Thanks so much for having me. Me too. So the first line in your book, I think, is quite apropos to what we're experiencing right now. And it goes like this. We are in a moment of acute collective suffering. And not only is that incredibly true right now, I suspect that what we're experiencing right now exceeds anything that you were contemplating at the moment that you wrote it. And I have to say just at the outset here that what I'm dealing with in this moment is this sense that it kind of just feels wrong to talk about anything other than human rights, civil rights, Black Lives Matter, and social

unrest right now. It even feels wrong to talk about COVID. And I guess on some level, almost indulgent to talk about the environment at the moment. And yet, amidst this age of crisis, economic, government, health, and social structures being overwhelmed and falling apart, beneath all of it is this accelerating climate emergency that we can't forget. So I'm just wondering how you're thinking about all of this right now. Yeah, it is certainly a crisis within a crisis within a crisis. And in some ways, I'm surprised. But I'm honestly, I'm surprised at how quickly everything is moving. six, seven years that we were in a ecological climate and ecological emergency that was going to cause the collapse of civilization in the short to medium term, you know, in the,

in the coming decades. I've, I've been aware of that, but I didn't, yeah, I thought it was a little further out, um, the acceleration, both in the climate system and in the like political system, the in, in significant part in response to, uh, the climate impacts is it, yeah, it, it has surprised me. But I think that viewing both coronavirus and the mass protests in the United States as part of what Paul Gilding, author and former director of Greenpeace, calls the great disruption. Greenpeace calls the great disruption that, you know, when you live unsustainably, when your system is unsustainable, that means it collapses. It doesn't go on forever. It ends. So it breaks down. So, yeah, I think keeping the climate and ecological factors at front of mind when considering every other emergency is really important, both because it's a critical piece of every story, of everything that's going on, and because we can't forget about it. I mean, coronavirus is here today, killing people today. The climate emergency is also doing that. Mainly, it's been in the global south. Most people who have starved because of droughts or, starved because of droughts or, you know, Bangladesh just suffered horrible floods again. So it's already taking lives, but it's like coronavirus, it's on exponential growth

trajectory, acceleration. And so, yes, there's a ton of crises and they're all interrelated. But I mean, to just stay grounded in the reality that our entire economy, our entire society, everything is takes place in and is fully dependent on our atmosphere and our biosphere. And, you know, the idea that human affairs, however pressing, are separated from that is, I mean, it's just never true. Right. I think that, that what we're seeing is the limitations of, you know, the human bandwidth to pay attention to too many things at once. The media is very good at centering in on one specific issue and its acuteness. But when we look at the climate emergency, it's more difficult to identify the enemy that we're marshalling against.

When we have COVID, we see the virus and we can kind of intuitively understand the enemy that we're marshalling against. When we have COVID, we see the virus and we can kind of intuitively understand the things that need to be done in order to tackle that. And we've seen the incredible power of the public to kind of rally around. It's like everywhere you go, people are wearing masks. For the most part, people are social distancing. Like they're adhering to certain protective protocols

in order to deal with this threat. Now we're seeing the social unrest and everything that's going on with that, and we're seeing a massive public awakening and awareness to a societal ill that is in dire need of redress. The climate right now just feels like something that is on a low hum on the back burner, you know, with this idea like we'll get to that, but we just, you know, we don't have the bandwidth at the moment to really talk about that or think about that until we can kind of get over the hump on these other things. And yet there is this indelible, irrefutable interrelatedness to the breakdown of all the systems that we're seeing right now. Yes. I do think attentional bandwidth is a real issue. But I also see a lot of coming from these two emergencies and our reaction to them,

with the central thing being just that normal is over. And I am very glad about that because normal was leading us straight to catastrophe. And, you know, this is I think this is an opportunity to create a new normal with, for example, Green New Deal as the stimulus that puts people back to work. And also the fact that the public has experienced an education about emergency situations, about how we can act together in order to protect life and radically alter the economy in order to protect life. Yeah, just what is possible for an emergency response. Suddenly Congress comes up with $2 trillion. Suddenly everyone can work from home. Suddenly people don't have to fly across the planet. These changes are possible and they can happen very quickly. The public's also getting an education about exponential risk and exponential acceleration of existential risk. The fact that these things happen on a curve and you have to respond as soon as possible or else they can get away from you. Yeah, I think that's certainly a lesson that everybody is taking from this. And there's definitely this sense of being awakened from the sleeping self, I guess, on some level.

And so with that, let's take it back a little bit. some level. And so with that, let's take it back a little bit. I mean, how, you know, how did your awakening occur with respect to your advocacy around climate? I mean, I know it had to do with Sandy. So if you could just like, you know, tell that story, I think it would be informative. So I came to New York City in 2009 to pursue my clinical psychology PhD. to pursue my clinical psychology PhD. And Hurricane Irene happened, Hurricane Sandy happened, or Superstorm Sandy. And as I was walking around my neighborhood in the days following, and just seeing all of this destruction, so much damage. There was a car with a smashed windshield and someone had put a sign on it that said, is global warming the culprit? And when I saw that, it's like my stomach dropped, because I knew, and that's what's, that's what's so amazing with,

uh, the climate emergency is there's so much awareness about the emergency and so little both discussion and action. So that sign helped me become actually aware of what I already knew, if that makes sense. So yeah, the process of becoming aware of the emergency happened through those events, as well as for many years, I was in denial and especially had practiced willful ignorance, meaning I knew that this was a scary situation. So I just would avoid it at like, sometimes I would read the first few lines of an article on climate and then say, Oh my God, I can't handle this, you know, X. Uh, and, but as I was getting older and also through my own psychotherapy, I was just getting internally stronger and more able to not do that, to actually look at this. So my awareness was kind of growing, but what really changed my life from which there's like, it's a clear kind of before and after, and there's no going back is my good friend said to me, I was planning, I was very alarmed and I was planning to do some writing. I was planning to, yeah, be kind of a climate

commentator and author. And my friend said to me, don't start a blog. Discourse isn't enough. Think what could you do to actually solve this problem? And it was like my brain exploded because it's like it had, i had never thought about it like that i was an academic i was a you know yeah a student at the idea of i've been a little bit involved in politics but not really so the idea of oh actually try to solve this huge global emergency. It's just too big to think of. But when he threw down that gauntlet, I just realized, oh, that's it for me, right? That's the only thing that I want is to, as we say at the climate mobilization, cancel the apocalypse. And I've been on that mission for the past six years. Well, what's interesting is that you've been able to leverage this specific skill set

that you have towards that solution. And when we kind of canvas the climate emergency, there's many on-ramps here. You could have been a commentator, a journalist, a writer, an author on this subject matter in general. There's political battles that we can pick. There's technological innovation that can help solve this problem. But fundamentally, if you want to get to the root of what's arresting the level or the rate at which we can address and overcome these problems, it really does boil down to our psychological makeup and how we're thinking about this issue, because that's the true barrier towards us actually doing anything about it. I come from addiction recovery, and there's a certain architecture in your steps that remind me of the 12 steps, specifically acceptance and breaking these chains of denial that are so important to

solving any personal problem. But on top of that, I'm also plant-based, I'm part of the vegan community, and I'm very aware of the various strategies that are deployed within that subculture to try to convince other people that becoming vegan is a good thing to do with varying degrees of success and failure. And I think in the Venn diagram, there's an overlap that's applicable to the conversation around environmentalism because your entry point and on-ramp is so relatable. It's not that we're not aware that there's a problem. It's the extent to which we're really willing to face it and then translate that increased level of awareness into some kind of tangible action that potentially can actually make a difference. Absolutely.

And I would just add to that. that you're vegan and part like a leader in that movement that's obviously extremely important for animal agriculture and industrial agriculture is such a huge contributor to the climate emergency and just general ecological emergency and you, there's been such huge movement towards being plant-based and all sorts of meat alternatives going more mainstream. I mean, so that, that is a really exciting development. And the truth is there's lots of really exciting developments in in the climate space, bicycling is resurgent and solar panels are continually getting more efficient and cheaper and new technologies are being created and so forth and so forth. But it's about scaling it all up at like by a thousand times, something that only federal governments have the resources to do is the kind of system change. It's all there. It's all ready to go. We just have lacked the

political will to implement it. And I agree with you, but that is significantly because of psychological factors. And I think what the climate emergency movement is doing is intervening in that, realizing that our enemy is not just fossil fuel companies and their huge network and industrial agriculture, but also denial, that denial and passivity are also enemies. And the vested interests that, you know, are doing everything they can to buttress that level of denial. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, the political will to address and solve these problems at the highest level that we see in so many ways is lacking right now is also simply a reflection of public consciousness and awareness.

So the way to shift political will is less about browbeating and more about raising that awareness from a grassroots level up. awareness from a grassroots level up. So in terms of advocacy and the kind of psychological makeup of the average human being, learning how to crack that code, I see as fundamental to this whole thing. But at the same time, the strategies and the tactics for doing that, it's like a minefield, right? Like you didn't become a climate activist because somebody browbeat you into it. And I didn't become vegan because somebody pointed a finger in my face and told me that I had to. I had my own personal kind of evolution into it that began with health and kind of a self-oriented sense about my own body that then evolved over time into a greater sensitivity and awareness about the larger issues. But I had to come to that myself. And had I been browbeaten at an

earlier stage, I might not have made that adjustment. So communication becomes critical and learning how to effectively translate a message in a way that's digestible for people to hear is important. But also at the same time, being mindful of not soft peddling everything. Like you have an interesting perspective on fear and the importance of how fear plays into this in a positive way. So I'm interested in how you think about the communication aspect of all of this. The first thing we should recognize is the amount of propaganda and misinformation and lies that have been propagated incredibly successfully by the fossil fuel industry, the most profitable industry in history. We're talking

about billions of dollars. Everybody, anyone listening to this podcast has been lied to very intentionally by this industry. And they're very clever. So it's about, yes, denial and casting doubt on the science, which is the same technique that the tobacco industry used. Indeed, they use many of the same scientists and lawyers and everything. Doubt is our product. Right, exactly. Doubt is the product. And also that the idea of a carbon footprint, you know, that this is on you, right? Individuals need to clean up their own act because as long as there is a demand for our product, we have like no choice but to sell it basically. And then also one of their other lies is, yeah, it's a, it's a problem and we need to, you know, decarbonize in the long term

and through gradual policy mechanisms like a carbon price. And so starting to understand the different ways that we have been manipulated and propagandized, as well as the greater, you know, American consumerist delusion that we've also been sold virtually from the time of our birth that you know buying things is how you are happy and you know compete get yours and then buy things is this is like the American dream the point of life so first of all unpacking all of that and realizing that if we are going to solve this emergency, it will only be through a political solution. Individual action is fine. I also do some of, you know, whatever. We have solar panels on our roof and whatnot. But it's not politics. And we need a political solution here at emergency speed.

And realizing that gives a lot of guidance, though not, obviously, it's not doesn't answer every question, but in terms of where people should direct their energy, which is towards building a movement, because a social movement, I mean, honestly, I think about it sometimes in terms of it's like it plays a psychological function or a therapeutic function. It intervenes in denial and says, no, we have to pay attention to this. So realizing that raising the alarm, telling the truth and raising the alarm in the political arena is a critical part of this. How we're going to get out of this needs to be done. I'm sure from time to time you're confronted with people who are intelligent or at least seem intelligent who are not buying that climate change is a thing. They'll say the science is exaggerated. We don't really know. There's not

adequate science on this. How do you interface with somebody who's coming from that place, who's seemingly immune from having you, you know, basically list a bunch of resources and scientists and articles, et cetera, books that dispute that point. Yeah. There's two things I do. Um, one is I say, uh, God, I wish that were true because that's, that's really what it is, is it's, it's wishful thinking. And that's something we share. We both want that to be true. And I also say, listen, the most profitable industry in history has spent billions of dollars to intentionally lie and mislead the American public. And I'm sorry to say you've fallen for it. And, you know, that's it. You've been lied to. But I do want to say, with people my age, I'm 34, I hear a lot more

we're fucked than it's not real. There's a lot of nihilism and just defeatism out there. Yeah, that's its own beast, right? Like, how do you catalyze interest and activism from somebody who just perceives that the ship has sailed and there's nothing much to be done? There's a sense of powerlessness. Yeah, we can look at electric cars and ride our bikes, but it seems like such an ineffectual drop in the bucket compared to the larger problem. And when the cycle of these environmental cataclysms seems to be accelerating from the fires

that ravaged Australia and the flooding and everything that, that, you know, seems to be happening, um, at a quicker rate than we've ever seen. There is a despair that comes over people where they just feel like there's nothing that they could personally do that would be impactful. Absolutely. And for a long time, that was somewhat true. I mean, that's, of course, people can always make a difference. But until about two years ago, there really wasn't an active climate emergency movement in this country or really globally. I mean, so my organization, the climate mobilization has been demanding a World War II scale climate mobilization to eliminate U.S. emissions in 10 years or less for the last five years. in 10 years or less for the last five years. And for a long time, that was a really fringe position. But with that advent of Extinction Rebellion, the Sunrise Movement, and the youth

school strikers, and the Green New Deal, which is considerably based on our work, it is possible now, very possible, to go and join a movement that is fighting for transformation, not reform, not gradualism. So that's the good news. So, so yeah, the first thing to do is just, you know, try to give movement education, right? Did you know all this stuff that's going on? Because people's nihilism and cynicism, which absolutely does result from a sense of helplessness, it can change. I mean, based on internal factors and also based on political conditions. Like right now, the huge unrest in the United States is making different political outcomes very different and changing people's calculus about whether or not to engage in this movement, because obviously people want to fight winnable fights, and this is starting to feel more winnable. Yeah, and I think what's cool about not just your organization, but your book, I mean, your book is essentially a self-help book.

It's about the climate emergency, but it's really about wrapping your head around the power that we all have to not just address but actually participate in this change. And you kind of walk people through these steps that we can undertake to reframe our psychological perspective on how we're thinking about this problem with actionable steps that we can take to move the ball forward. And I like, like I said earlier, it starts with acceptance, like coming to this understanding and having to break the denial, you know, welcoming the emotions that flood in with that. I mean, you kind of talk about Tara Brock and her, you know, rubric for how to think about this, then re-imagining the story, entering this emergency mode, and then joining the movement. And I think when you kind of walk through that, you start to realize that we are more powerful than we think that we are. And when we turn on

the news and we see all of the social activity in all its forms right now, I think that there is an empowerment lesson in there for all of us that we can provoke the change that we want to see in the world and that there is quite a bit of hope to be mined from what we're seeing at the moment. think when you view the climate emergency from the perspective of psychology and social psychology and allow that to inform your understanding of what the social movement needs to accomplish, it is, okay, we are living in a lie that things are normal and that there's not a climate emergency. And again, that's why the coronavirus and mass protests are, you know, I'm, I'm glad not to be fully in that delusion anymore, but we're still in the mass delusion that, um, we don't face a near-term existential threat, not other people, you and me and my family and your family and the whole human family is in danger because of the climate emergency, that understanding, we're in mass collective denial, like Vlav Havel pointed out in the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia, that there was mass understanding that the state was corrupt, just like there is mass understanding

in the United States that this is an existential threat. But by just living within the system, living as if things were normal, rather than talking about it and raising the alarm and changing your life in response to this, we're perpetuating this sense of normalcy. And so what's so important about this recognition, What's so important about this recognition, and again, that Vaclav Havel used to create the Velvet Revolution and peacefully democratize the Czech Republic, is through, if you're in this situation where there is something that is true and is largely understood as true and yet there is not action attached to that yet that there is an understanding that that that is a bubble that can be punctured right that is a situation that can flip really quickly once we start a collective awakening. And it is starting. It just needs to massively expand. Right. A little more inflation. Absolutely. To get it to that point. Like so many problems, it seems that part of what's preventing an and get what's ours to satisfy our material urges. And with lobbying efforts who are invested in the status quo and kind of diluting the public, is there a way in which capitalism and environmentalism on the level that you're talking about can coexist? Or how do we decouple corporate

self-interest from the public good? It seems that we need to find a way to realign these incentives so that systems kind of auto-direct towards solutions rather than exacerbating the problem. So absolutely, we need to realign incentives. I definitely agree with that. However, we are just so advanced in the climate emergency, like we're not heading off a cliff. We are off the cliff and we need to hit reverse, not the brakes. So I think that in order to move as quickly as humanly possible, it involves enlisting business as well as labor and the whole society into an effort. But what changes, what absolutely needs to change is the basic orientation and, let's say, power arrangements that at the moment, there is an understanding that, you know, it's like the neoliberal assumptions that the government can't successfully intervene in the market in order to deal with issues or pass strong legislation, command and control legislation, rather than just incentive based legislation right like we don't have to charge 10 cents for single-use plastic or whatever we could just ban it like that is a policy instrument that we've kind of forgotten how to use but during world war ii fdr said no more consumer cars are going to be sold in this country

because we need all of this capacity to make tanks, planes and ships. And so they're still participating, but the government's in the driver's seat. So that's the kind of emergency mobilization element in which very planned and emergency speed transition of the economy happens. And that's just the overriding top priority. So which, yeah, it just needs a lot of active intervention. So then what comes after that? I don't worry about too much for me getting to, you know, beyond zero emissions to negative emissions and stopping this six mass extinction of species. That's like enough for me, but absolutely a society that doesn't have financial incentives that lead us to legislative governmental structure that leads us

to destruction. I mean, it's like no one, no one can say this system is working, you know, if they live in the reality of physics. Right. This reality in the third dimension, right? You know, you mentioned FDR. That made me think of your bystander effect example. You use this analogy of the fire alarm going off in the office and the extent to which people respond to that is cued by the urgency level of the boss, the person at the top. And when you speak about FDR, we're talking about a strong leader who had a vision about a certain solution. We're lacking that at the moment. How important is it that at the very top, we have somebody who takes this seriously so that we can all kind of, you know, fall in step with this bystander effect?

We can raise the consciousness level from the ground up. But on some level, there's something to be said for leadership that takes this seriously. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, the climate mobilization endorsed Bernie Sanders, who is proposing a $16 trillion World War Two scale climate mobilization. So I mean, we Yeah't we don't waste our breath trying to advocate for Trump to do this. We would try to convince Biden administration to take this on. But yeah, I mean, and OK, so yeah, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I think, provides inspirational leadership for the climate emergency movement. Right. She certainly filled that vacuum. She did some. But while it is absolutely true that we need leadership from the top, it is also true that if you're in a burning office building, you don't have to be the boss to yell and tell everybody to get out and take the fire drill seriously. So the mission

that I am inviting readers to take on is really about becoming a leader. I mean, joining this movement and bringing in others through spreading the word and, I mean, yeah, recruiting. Yeah, to just try and increase their power and influence as much as possible in order to spread this message and save humanity. So it is both true that we need leadership at the top and true that each of us have to summon all of our strengths and courage in order to offer whatever leadership we can in our families and workplaces and communities. in our families and workplaces and communities. How do you think about greenwashing? There seems to be a lot of commercial co-opting of people's interest in environmentalism to the extent that products are developed and pitched and presented to the marketplace

that appear to be solution oriented and yet in fact are not. And that kind of lulls people into a placated state that they're actually doing something or that they're active when in truth, it ultimately ends up making the solution more difficult, preventing activism because people feel like they're already playing their part. So do you think about that really reinforces the idea of Americans as consumers. And whereas I, I really, I mean, I really want to emphasize the fact that we are citizens and that we make the

government and it is, it's up to us to create a system that cancels the apocalypse and protects humanity in all all life and that no one is going to do that for us again maybe bernie sanders could have taken care of it but even then we would have need a robust movement making sure that he does. So to have the assumption that no one is coming to save us. So, you know, we're going to create the leader that we need, you know, the, the saying, the feminist saying, uh, be the man you always wanted to marry. It's like, be the leader It's like, be the leader that you crave to see at the national level. Like, just try to find that within yourself and bring that into your endeavors.

Yeah, I like that. No one's coming to save us. You've got to take that mantle on for yourself. Back to this World War II kind of Manhattan Project approach to solving the problem. Like, walk me through the ideal version of, you know, what that looks like from your perspective. Like, what are the biggest problems that we need to tackle? How are we going to, you know, deconstruct and reimagine those systems, whether they're agriculture or energy, et cetera? Like, what does that specifically look like? Great. So you can imagine that we have gotten this question a lot for years. And so my co-founder

of the organization, Ezra Silk, wrote a 100-page victory plan that spells this out for any listeners that want to take the deep dive. but I'll give some top lines. And it just goes to show also how incredibly complex this is, because even the victory plan, the 100 pages, it's still a high level overview. So anyway, what do we need to do? We need to transform our energy, need to transform our energy, agricultural and industrial systems of our economy. Yeah. And I mean, it'll have implications, obviously, for the financial sector and other sectors, but at emergency speed. So how do you do that? Oh, and yes, our transportation sector. I mean, it's just on and on and on. It's everything. So yeah, how do you do that? You immediately ban all new fossil fuel infrastructure and development. So no new export terminals for gas, no new coal plants, no new pipelines, no new anything. This is obvious, but it's still somehow

radical. Okay, so we shut all that down. And then we create a 10 year timeline to shut down the existing fossil fuel capacity in the United States. So the plants, And then you create a massive program to ramp up renewables and energy conservation in order to replace the fossil fuel that's getting phased out so quickly. So that's going to take a lot of jobs to put solar or green roofs on every roof and insulate every home, you know, winterize every home. And to create just a renewable energy production miracle, we want to convert factories into solar and wind producing factories. So that's a little bit on the energy side, on the transportation side to immediately make zero miles per gallon, the new mileage per gallon standard. So all new vehicles must be electric. And then to work on getting fossil fuel vehicles off the road through a cash for clunkers program. In some cases,

retrofits are possible. Cars with an internal combustion engine can be electrified and move towards public transportation. Obviously, we need to build out a huge high-speed rail network and drastically curtail flying. We need to to ban factory farms and transition all agriculture to regenerative practices through a combination of, you know, banning pesticides, phasing out pesticides, as well as, you know, education and providing support for farmers to do that. I mean, so yeah, we need huge research grants. We need to create a super smart grid. We need bike lanes. I mean, it's huge, the amount of stuff we need to do.

And the only possible way we would do it is if we realized that we have no choice, because if we don't do this, we will literally all die in chaos. Yeah, and getting people to understand the level of that existential threat seems to be not only is, you know, that's not only like the most important piece, like that's really the focus of your expertise, right? Getting them, you know, to this level of acceptance and then activated and self-directed, you know, on the right path. directed, you know, on the right path. How does your, you know, kind of solution-oriented perspective on this square with the work that Paul Hawken is doing with Drawdown, do those things line up or is there, you know, kind of a difference of perspective there? I see somebody

I've had on the podcast who, you know, spoke about his various channels for addressing this on a global level, because a lot of what you're talking about also is it's about, you know, kind of the United States and what we can do. But as we know, like this crisis doesn't respect national borders if we're doing this, but China isn't. Like, how are you thinking about all of that? So Drawdown is awesome. awesome. And it lays out areas like refrigerants and educating women and girls. And that, for example, that can reduce carbon emissions. And so, as I said earlier, in terms of solutions,

we've got them and they do such a good job of demonstrating this. And it's really just about achieving scale. myself and the climate mobilization coming in for incredibly strong legislation, massive spending in order to get all this done. It's going to be super expensive. And just, you know, kind of doing whatever it takes at a legislative level, an emergency mobilization. I think Paul Hawken has a vision that involves businesses and other sectors kind of taking action on their own. Yeah. Yeah. Not through necessarily command and control.

And yeah, the kind of emergency mobilization type approach. When we think about the psychological aspect of this, my sense is that everybody thinks they're – look, everybody, you know, thinks that they're a good person, you know, that they're doing the best that they can. And when confronted with certain aspects of this movement, it's not uncommon for people to be defensive or self-protective. So when I experience that myself, I'm reflective of my own kind of inherent biases. And I think, what am I being defensive about? Is there some underlying thing that I need to look at in my own behavior. And I think beneath that is perhaps some unconscious shame or my attempt to protect my own self-esteem because I feel like my identity is being threatened. Can you give me an example of the kind of situation that you're talking about? What might make you feel this way? Oh, I mean, it could be as banal as my wife saying,

why didn't you take the garbage out last night? You know, it can be anything. Like, I'm a sensitive person. You know, I will get defensive and protective, and then I'll react rather than, you know, take a moment to pause and respond mindfully to what is actually being said to me. So I'm just thinking about, like, if I'm called out on some character defect of mine or some behavior, my natural inclination is to be defensive. And I think that's a natural thing. And I've done a lot of work over the years to not behave in that way. But as we all know, we all have our buttons and when they get pushed we're going to you know basically play whatever loop is programmed into our psyche yeah but and and by being aware of them and mindful of

them is the best that we can do towards growth so it's that's great right so so in terms of of kind of creating an architecture around around on these subjects. Like you're out there, you're trying to get people excited about this movement, you're trying to empower them, but we all have people who are kind of resistant out there. So knowing what you know about the human brain and human behavior, I think it would be instructive and helpful to kind of provide some guideposts to people who want to learn how to be better communicators about this or how to think about their own participation in this movement for themselves, for their own personal self-actualization. Yeah, it's such an important point, what you bring up about people's self-esteem and how if someone feels criticized, that is not

when they're most receptive to what you have to say. And it can be hard because when we talk about the climate emergency, I mean, it's such bad news. It's such challenging, painful, awkward news. So I do think it's really important for people to really think about how they engage and how they communicate and always try to be improving on that. So I really appreciate the question. I think that one of the most important things is to speak from the heart. With climate, we have gotten so far down the road of science that, you know, people read about climate in the science section and they look to scientists to tell them what's going on and what we should do. And it's like, this is not a science issue. This is an everything issue. And scientists play an important role. But, you know, we can talk about this from a perspective of our values and our emotions and our futures. against a kind of, let's say, PowerPoint-type science-driven approach. Plus, people don't generally feel comfortable doing that.

So I invite people to have personal conversations about the climate emergency with your friends and family, in which you talk about your reaction. How are you feeling about what's going on? And obviously this includes COVID and the mass protests against police brutality and racism that we're seeing to talk about how you're feeling, what you think the future holds and your fears about the future and how you're processing this and ask them the same. And how are you feeling about it? And what are your thoughts about the future? And how are you processing it? And you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to have everything worked out. It's just to connect on the level of like, holy shit, have you seen the most recent updates about what's happening in the climate?

Do you know what's happening in the climate? It is accelerating so quickly. I'm so scared. That is so impactful to share what's in your heart. I'm really, you know, to say I'm really thinking about not having children, given what I'm seeing and think the future holds. I mean, a huge amount of people are experiencing painful feelings, consciously related to the climate emergency. Yeah, 56% of Americans say we're in a climate emergency. And 80% of young people think that global warming is a major threat to

life as we know it. But yet there's still very little personal conversation going on. So that's, yeah, that's definitely the number one thing I would say. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's certainly an issue that should not be political, that should have bipartisan support. And yet like so many big issues that we're contending with right now have become politicized, tremendously politicized. kind of entered the public consciousness around the 2016 election has only accelerated the tribalism, the weaponization of social media, the fake news, and the increasing extent to which we are siloed in our chosen media information diets of choice. And when you're talking about trying to confront this issue, you're inevitably going to butt up against people who are getting their information from a very different source and have become very calcified around any idea that contravenes what they've

acclimated themselves to, which just is this extraordinary complexifier to this whole thing, like how to untangle that knot when everything is political now and we're so self-identified with whatever tribe it is that we choose to belong to. Yeah, absolutely. This is a huge central problem in our politics, generally speaking, and on the climate in particular. One thing I would say is don't worry about the deniers or don't focus on them. They're going to be the last people to join this movement. But even they perhaps can get there. But it's not going to happen now.

So don't waste your time. Spend your time talking to people who do understand what's going on with the climate, but are still going on with their lives as usual. Move them to greater action. Like people say, Oh, but that's preaching to the choir or something. And it's, it's like, no, that's getting the choir together. Our choir has not been doing a very good job recently and we need to really grow it and its power. So yeah, you don't, I, I, yeah, I wouldn wouldn't i wouldn't waste time honestly talking to climate deniers you could tell them if you're interested you know if you are reconsidering or if you're interested

or whatever we we could talk but there's so much low-hanging fruit like the 80 percent of young voters who think that global warming is a threat to life as we know it, like organizing them, bringing them into the movement, it's easy. All you need to do is show them how and get, you know, and encourage them to do it. So there's so much to do there. I would say that's where it's at. Yeah. I mean, that's the low hanging fruit in the easy sell and the on-ramps. It's just sell and the on-ramps. It's just building the appropriate on-ramp to activate those people in the most effective way. Yeah.

You know, another thing that's somewhat unique about this problem is, and you point this out in the book, is that we are together collectively all victims of the climate emergency, but through passivity, we're also its perpetrators. And from a psychological perspective, that's confusing, right? We're suffering as a result of this, but we're also active participants in its acceleration. And untangling that knot seems to be kind of a psychological minefield as well. Right. And this gets into or back to what you were saying about self-esteem and that guilt to be a part of this problem is one thing that holds us back from fully engaging with it and doing what we can to stop it because we've been told that it's our fault and i like to say it's not your fault but it is your responsibility you know no one asked to be born into this terribly destructive and broken system. We're here at this time and this is the reality that we're faced with. on this planet that would be more meaningful or noble than to fight for humanity in the living world take that on as your personal mission and just decide that this is not gonna happen

on your watch right and once you've an individual has kind of faced that truth and grappled with the, you know, the fear and the grief and all these other emotions that come up with breaking that chain of denial about what's actually going on, you have this third step, which is entitled re-imagining your life story. So walk me through what that means. animals that have already been lost, but also to grieve the future that they thought they had, their hopes and plans, realizing that it's just not going to unfold the way you hoped and planned. And instead, there's this other reality of that's going to be, you know, accelerating chaos once you do that. And I did realizing that, you know, being a psychologist and writing books and having a family, which is what I had planned. And it seemed like a great plan. But when I realized that it wasn't

going to work, if civilization was just collapsing all around me. I no longer saw satisfaction down that road. And what that does is open up space for a new identity, a new future, a new trajectory, and a new story of self. So I invite people to ask, what if this is why I'm here? And what if everything in my life had been leading up to this? All my challenges, all my skills and talents. Like, what if this is really what it's all about? And imagine what it could be to have that heroic mission, to take that on. So yeah, it's a tall order.

It's hard, but I just think it's so worth it. Yeah, it's very much in the ilk of the Joseph Campbell hero's journey. And there's this trajectory from self-interest to being kind of community-oriented, right? Like the self-esteem that comes with devoting yourself to something that's bigger than you and more important than your own personal concerns that I think girds people's lives with meaning and to the extent that they can identify with this movement or perhaps an aspect of it. Maybe it's animal agriculture, maybe it's

solar energy. Sometimes I feel like, well, global climate change, it's so vast and all-consuming. Is there wisdom in identifying one aspect of it that speaks to you personally, that you feel like you have an emotional connection to and can do the best good? How do you think about parsing this into various sectors where you can channel people's energy in a direction that feels like a fit for them? Definitely people need to find their place in this movement. And I absolutely, some people are, you know, drawn to regenerative agriculture and others to trains and, you know, every, and that's great. And, you know,

people should follow their heart in those ways. But make sure to make it or to also be political. Because if you're just having a regenerative farm, for example, that's great. It's certainly much better than having a conventional farm. But I just don't think that's going to change the world. Yeah. You're thinking in terms of scale, like whatever you choose, like it has to have a lever that can move things beyondative agriculture. And I share my insights with other regenerative farmers. You know, there's ways to make a lot of different things a part of this movement. It just has to be, you know, consciously part of what you're doing. Yeah, I guess what I'm thinking of, you know, I'm just analogizing it in my mind to the vegan movement and understanding that, you know, certain people are very good at

being, you know, brazen with their messaging and unapologetic and kind of, you know, edgy. And other people are more effective at provoking change in more subtle ways just because of their natural disposition. And I think you need all different types in, you know, every shape and form. But finding the vein that, you know, you can tap that fits you is, you know, what I'm always thinking about in terms of how I direct people and think about my own messaging. But I do think that piece of figuring out how that's going to be effective in a broader sense is the important part of the calculus that, you know, perhaps I've overlooked or should think more deeply about. Yeah. Choosing your place in the climate movement. And it's, and it's also, it's not just like one and done. It's a, it's an evolving

thing. You should always be reaching for, you know, how is this going and how can I have a greater impact? That's just an ongoing process, but choosing it is as complex and personal as choosing a career, right? There's just so many different factors. And so that's why the final step, step five, I try to say, okay, well, this is what the movement needs, these different categories of things. And, you know, think about how you fit into them. So just like for some concrete examples, movements need bookkeepers and graphic designers and people to help with child care and people to make meals for events, whatever, catering people to do tech support, people to offer child childcare at meetings, translators. There's so many different things as well as of course, they always need organizers and fundraisers. If you want, if you want to be welcome in any social movement organization, tell them you're willing to raise funds. So there's, I mean, there's just so many different ways to do this. And yeah, I mean, and, and, you know, on the, on the high end, and I always encourage people to go

all the way, I mean, run for office, start an initiative, get your business or organization to declare a climate emergency and to reckon with their role in this movement, there's so much that is helpful to the listener. You know, there's something you can do. There's something for you in this movement. Right. One of the questions that you ask in the book is, you know, how we got to this place. Why are we passively accepting collective suicide? And, you know, underneath that, kind of underscoring this thing, is this idea that it's because, in so many ways, our society treats life as if it were a cheap commodity, like that's a line out of your book. To overcome that, it seems to me to require a shift in our

value system, right? And when I read that, it's a provocative line. I immediately think of all the things that I do that are not perfect. I'm talking to you through a microphone and a computer that's full of all kinds of minerals that I don't know where they came from. And I'm certain that they weren't mined in a way that was protective of the environment. We are all complicit on some level in participating in a system that is creating the undoing of the planet. That is creating the undoing of the planet. And that dissonance becomes – like I want to think that like my value system states that I don't treat life as if it were a cheap commodity. And yet it goes back to what I was saying before, like this idea that we're both victim and perpetrator here. But in order to truly shift this value perspective away from treating life as if it were a cheap commodity and towards valuing it more seems to be – that's a big thing, right? Like we can all get involved in causes. We can participate.

But are you optimistic that we can arrive at that place where – I mean, it would seem like there would need to be total system upheaval of governments and political systems to arrive at that place. Because at present, we value life so poorly. Hmm. I guess I'm not – like, that's not really a question. It was more like an observation, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just thought of that in that moment. Right. Yeah, yeah. And I take great comfort in your optimism around it and the activism that you've, you know, shouldered for yourself and your organization. And I am hopeful.

And I'm surrounded by young people who are extremely, you know, activated by this cause. And, you know, I want to believe that we're going to be able to tackle and overcome this. And I have to juxtapose that against some level of admitted despair that I see when I scroll through today's news cycle, and I see the violence, and I see the level of hatred being perpetrated. And on some level, this process has to occur for us to get to the other side and transcend these age-old problems that we have. But in my own mind, the attempt to kind of reconcile all of this, you know, leaves me at times like less hopeful or confused. So one element that I really want to emphasize is thinking about our system and our role within that. Because we participate in this system. There is not really a way out.

I mean, you could be like a renunciant, you know, like a monk or something, but it's, you have to take really extreme measures in order to not participate in the basic global economy and energy system and, you know, all of it. And I certainly don't think we should shame people for that but i actually don't think i mean yeah okay so by living in the system by consuming there is some level of guilt and responsibility but i think about passivity and lack of political engagement as the larger, like that to me is where the responsibility lies. And I think it was Naomi Oreskes who said that the abolitionists in this country knew that their clothes were made by slaves and that the cotton was picked by slaves and that this was a slave process but they knew they had to change the system not their clothes and i just i mean i

feel like looking back you can see it seems obvious right that a movement to ask people to change their consumption patterns and try to buy clothes that were made only by free workers, it would not have been as effective as fighting the institution head on, on the field of politics and public opinion. One of the things, well, the sort of, five final chapter in your book is about how to actually join the movement and be effective. In my experience, there's a lot of people who are energized by this movement, but they're not quite sure where to direct that energy. You can go to the Climate Mobilization Project website or you can go to an Extinction Rebellion rally, etc. But I think, you know, it's important to try to provide people with some guidance about

how to direct that in the most effective way. So talk a little bit about, you know, somebody who's listening to this or read your book and they're excited and they're ready to go. How do you then channel that in the right direction? What can somebody who's just living in the suburbs somewhere begin to do? Great. So the first thing is to find out what's happening in your area. Even, I mean, in this moment, even that is going to be virtual, but it's good to just find out what groups are operating as well as to start to understand the landscape. I encourage people to look for some criteria in what groups they're going to join. Do you call it an emergency?

Language matters. This is a climate emergency. This is not a little change. Even more important, do they advocate transformational change, not reform? Okay, so an example of reform is carbon pricing. And in many sectors of the environmental movement, carbon pricing is considered the gold standard of what we need to do. But it's too late. standard of what we need to do, but it's too late. Carbon pricing perhaps can play a role in a larger mobilization, but it is not worth it to campaign for carbon pricing alone. So look for a group that is talking about 10 years to zero emissions, an emergency response, an emergency mobilization, and that's growing, right? So Extinction Rebellion, the Sunrise Movement, the School Strikers, the climate mobilization, and many local organizations as well, you know,

have taken on this platform. So find out what's going on with those organizations and what the advocacy platforms are of the other organizations available is a great first step. Thinking about your own skills and resources and networks and doing an inventory of that. So, I mean, obviously, I would love to recommend that people read the book and that chapter facing the climate emergency, how to transform yourself with climate truth, because it's a really, I mean, it's quite involved. You got to think about how much time you have and if you're willing to donate money and, you know, yeah, what skills you have, what you're willing to do, what you're not willing to do. Are you willing to get arrested? So to really take seriously that kind of self-assessment and bringing that together with an understanding of what the movement needs and what's going on in your local area is what I would say.

As well as the addendum to that is and, and this is to everybody, talk about the climate emergency as much as possible and do it personally. Yeah. as much as possible and do it personally. Yeah. On the subject of philanthropy and from kind of an effective altruism perspective, if somebody wants to donate money, who are the best recipients of that that are provoking the greatest amount of change? I mean, there's so many places to donate now. It's hard to know who's doing the great work and where those funds can be used most effectively for the most amount of change. Yes. So I would strongly recommend funding newer, smaller organizations. And I really recommend not funding the big green organizations such as NRDC, Sierra Club. Greenpeace does some good work.

I guess maybe they're okay. But there's Nature Conservancy. These organizations are not on top of how bad this emergency is. League of Conservation Voters, they are in denial. They are in the gradualist paradigm. And that is significantly because they've gotten too cozy with power. They value being insiders more, you know, and they don't want to do any kind of agitation. So give to the organizations I mentioned previously, Extinction Rebellion, Sunrise Movement, Climate Mobilization, School Strikers.

And that's, you know, the Future Coalition is one of the key school strike organizations. And so, yeah, look at their demands. Again, we are out of time for weak demands. If someone is promoting the decarbonization by 2050, it's just, I mean, come on, we don't have 30 years. And it's certainly not worth funding an environmental group that is advocating such a like weak and not reality based message. So yeah, I think that kind of targeted giving,

Yeah, I think that kind of targeted giving, I mean, this new movement, this climate emergency movement that has emerged, it is a tiny fraction of the resources that the big green has. And it has made a much more significant impact through its passion and willingness to tell the truth. its passion and willingness to tell the truth. So I would strongly direct people towards climate emergency organizations that are operating in the political and social sphere. It's a tiny fraction of climate funding goes to that. It's like a new area. So another group to mention is the Climate Emergency Fund, which sprouted to fund groups like this and new groups right that have no track record but that want to get started and you know the climate emergency fund will give them small grants like 500 bucks to you know host their first

protest or whatnot so that they're pretty cool they take risks that other funds don't so if you don't feel comfortable giving directly to an organization that's a good approach they know how to disperse it yeah i would the last thing i would say is to apply these same standards to political candidates that you donate to obviously donations matter a lot in u.s politics so letting a candidate know that you're only supporting candidates that call it a climate emergency, that advocate for an emergency response, 10 years to zero emissions, whatever. I mean, that's like one of the most effective ways to influence a candidate. Other than AOC, who else on the Hill is really pushing this message? Earl Blumenauer and AOC introduced the climate emergency declaration in the house. Bernie Sanders introduced it in the Senate. So yeah, that's, that's some people to flag Ed Markey, who's getting primaried from

the, you know, centrist Democrat, Joe Kennedy has been a climate champion. There's not a huge amount of people that are doing nearly enough. I wish the list was longer. You and me both. Well, I want to give you an opportunity before we close here to talk a little bit more about the Climate Mobilization project and perhaps kind of what your immediate focus is right now and some of the work that you're doing. So the climate mobilization's key organizing activity is our climate emergency campaign, which has helped achieve more than 1, 1500 declarations of climate emergency, primarily from local governments, but also from national governments and even the EU. Though unfortunately, some of those governments attached to 2050 decarbonization timeline, totally contradicting themselves

in their declaration. And it's quite a cognitive pretzel. But anyway, in other cases, it works really well to help shift the terms of the debate. So for example, Ann Arbor, Michigan, declared a climate emergency and unveiled a billion dollar climate plan that would get them to net zero emissions by 2030, which is quite ambitious for a city of that size. by 2030, which is quite ambitious for a city of that size. 20 cities in California and Massachusetts have now, after declaring a climate emergency, banned the natural gas hookups in new construction, making all new construction, electric appliances, electric heating. So we work with local organizations and organizers who want to enlist their local governments as allies in the fight with declaring a climate emergency as the start of a campaign. a project around the book and around creating models for facilitated discussions around these issues in which people can share feelings and process together. And so I'm also personally really leaning into the psychological side and looking to operationalize that as much as possible.

Oh, that's cool. I like that idea. So in other words, getting like smaller groups of people together to just process and talk about how they're thinking about it or what does that mean? Yeah, exactly. I mean, right now there's two kinds of discussions that we do. One is called pain into action, and that's for people who haven't read facing the climate emergency. And at first everyone shares what they're feeling about the climate emergency. And in at first, everyone shares what they're feeling about the climate emergency. And then in the second round, people share ideas about action for themselves, what they might do. And it's a bit of brainstorming. I mean, it's very basic. I mean, it's not rocket science, but people say to me all the time, no one ever asked me how I feel about the climate emergency. And it's like, huh, maybe we should be talking about this. And then we're also putting

together a format for people who have read the book. So it's a, yeah, kind of like a, I don't know, a politically engaged book club, kind of a politically and psychologically engaged book club kind of approach. Right. Well, cool. I mean, I love that idea. I love the book. I should say that it's a very easy read. I mean, there's this sense that you think you're going to get into something that's, you know, super heavy about the science behind the climate emergency. And it's really less about that and much more about how to think about it, like we've been talking about psychologically, and how to channel that into action. I think you did a great job. It's very easily digestible. And I

should also point out what's very cool about this that I love is that your publisher is not only a B Corp, but they're like carbon neutral and the book is printed on recycled paper and they have this like environmental benefits statement on the back page and everything. So you are walking your talk with that. It's cool. Let me let me also mention that all proceeds from book sales on our side go to Climate Mobilization Project. Cool. Of course. Excellent. So if people are digging on Margaret's message, definitely pick up the book, Facing the Climate Emergency.

Go to Climate Mobilization Project, the website, and any other place that you want to direct people. So, I'm sorry, you said theclimatemobilization.org and facingtheclimateemergency.com? Oh, go to all of them. Yeah, one is for the book, one is for the organization. Both great sites. And you can be followed on Twitter at Climate Psych, correct?

Yeah. Cool. All right, I think we did it. How do you feel? I think that went really well. I think so too. I think people are going to really enjoy it. So I appreciate you sharing your message. It's powerful with everybody today.

And if there's anything I can ever do to help with your work and your cause, please reach out to me. I really enjoy. Well, this is an incredible help to appear like this. So I really appreciate it. Cool. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

So that happened. We did that. Did it bend your noodle? Margaret's an incredible communicator, I think. Hope you guys are feeling more inspired than despondent because we need you. This crisis is important. We can do this, but we gotta do it together. If you're feeling at all altruistic,

you can find the aforementioned climate groups in today's episode's show notes. I also encourage you to check out Margaret's book. Please read this book, Facing the Climate Emergency. It will not disappoint. You can find Margaret on Twitter at Climate Psych and on Instagram, just go to Climate Mobilization. We also have another Roll On AMA coming up in the forthcoming weeks.

You can leave us a voicemail with your question at 424-235-4626. And you can also leave a message on our Facebook group. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube, share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com forward slash donate. I appreciate my team who works very hard week in, week out to put on the show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin who typically video the show, Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margo Lubin,

who typically video the show, but today is audio only. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Allie Rogers, who takes portraits when we do in-person podcasts. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Hari Mathis.

Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon with another amazing episode. Until then, peace, plants. Namaste, you guys. See you back here soon with another amazing episode. Until then, peace, plants, namaste. You got this. Let's act together. Come on, let's do it. Thank you.