The Rich Roll Podcast - Courtney Dauwalter: Mindset Secrets From The World's Best Ultrarunner

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

We tend to think of high-performance athletes as superhuman—a rare species with extraordinary strength and a preternatural ability to suffer. But if you ask today’s guest what distinguishes the elite athlete and everyone else, she’ll say nothing. For her, the secret to high-level performance isn’t about cutting edge training plans, coaches, or carefully honed nutrition. For her, it’s instead found in seeking out and celebrating the pain cave, that deep place of physical discomfort most go to great lengths to avoid. Meet Courtney Dauwalter, the world’s best female ultrarunner—and when it comes to races 200 miles and longer—arguably the best period. A humble mater of grit and boundary-busting physical prowess, Courtney is universally loved and admired for her winning smile, mental fortitude and intuitive training style (she doesn’t even have a coach). In addition to being named one of the 50 Fittest Athletes in the World by Sports Illustrated and a two-time Ultrarunner of the Year, among her countless accomplishments, Courtney: won the 2017 Moab 240 (including beating all the men) by an astonishing 10 hour margin; won the 2020 Big Dog Backyard Ultra by clocking 283 miles (again beating all the men); won the women’s division of 2018 The Western States 100; broke the Tahoe 200 female course record in 2018 by 18+ hours; and was the fastest female at the 2019 UTMB, considered the world’s most prestigious ultra Not bad for an athlete who didn’t even begin her professional running career until she was 32 years old. The thing about Courtney is that she lives in the moment. She’s a doer. She doesn’t overthink things. She trains on feel, eats what she wants, and does it all with joy and a laudable degree of humility and perspective. But behind it all is a very intentional human—an athlete of unparalleled mental fortitude with the drive required to test the very limits of human capability. Today we get into all of it. Courtney shares the mindset techniques and tactics that have propelled her superhuman accomplishments. She shares her perspective on career longevity. Her evolution as an athlete. How she approaches unlocking unprecedented performance. And the purpose that lives beneath it all. But if you extract anything from this conversation, may it be the importance of having fun. Why taking things lightly is strength and not a weakness. When you reframe pain as a destination rather than an obstacle, truly anything is possible. To read more click here. You can also watch our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. An athlete I’ve admired for many years, I aspire to Courtney’s unique blend of grit and joy. Yes, she is a badass. But she’s also a good sport. A better human. And an absolutely delightful hang. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People are selling themselves short and setting their bars too low of what they could actually do if they went all in on something. Whatever they're psyched about to just see what happens if they invest a little more time and energy into it. I mean, our minds are so powerful. So even just like changing the storyline makes it a whole different game. So I call it the pain cave, that place. And I guess probably four or five years ago, I viewed the pain cave as like this place that you should try to put off as long as possible in a race. Like make your pain cave be as far away from you as you can. And if you arrive to it, then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave be as far away from you as you can. And if you arrive to it,

then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave. But in the past couple of years, I mean, it's just a mindset, right? It's like all in our heads, this thing. And in the past couple of years, it's been the place I want to get to. So like changing it to a place where I get to celebrate that I made it there. And then that's where the work actually happens. So making the pain cave bigger is how I view it instead of like pushing the pain cave away. Yeah. And all, I mean, it's just telling myself a different story about that place where it hurts so bad, you know, where before it was like surviving it, and now it's like, this is so cool. We made it here, and now we work. I'm Courtney Dwalter, and this is The Rich Roll Podcast.

The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. And my guest today is the world's best female ultra runner, straight up. And when it comes to the really long stuff, races 200 miles and longer, this person is arguably the best, period. Lover of nachos, fashion icon, joke teller, Courtney DeWalter is a humble master of mental grit and boundary-busting physical prowess, and honestly, just really fun to hang out with.

In addition to being named one of the 50 fittest athletes in the world by Sports Illustrated and a two-time ultra runner of the year, among Courtney's countless wins and many accomplishments, she was the overall winner, including beating all the men at the Moab 240 in 2017, a race she won by an absolutely mind-blowing 10 hours. What else? Earlier this year, she won the last man standing Big Dog Backyard Ultra by clocking 283 miles, again, beating all the men as well. She also won the women's division of the Western States 100 in 2018. She broke the Tahoe 200 female course record in 2018 by 18 plus hours.

She was the fastest female at UTMB in 2019, perhaps the world's most prestigious ultra. The other week, however, subsequent to this conversation, which was recorded at the beginning of June, Courtney had a bit of a rough go of it at the Hard Rock 100, dropping out around mile 62 due to some stomach issues, but she will be towing the start line at UTMB on August 23rd. This one is fun. It was a total honor to spend time with Courtney and it's all coming up in a few, but first. We're brought to you today by recovery.com.

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I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. It's a real problem. A problem I'm now happy and proud to share has been solved by the people at recovery.com who created

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When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. The thing about Courtney is this is a person who lives in the moment. She's a doer. She doesn't overthink things. She trains on feel, on intuition. She eats what she wants and she does it all with joy, with an infectious smile, and a really laudable degree of humility and perspective. But I think behind it all is a very particular mental fortitude,

an unreal capacity for suffering, and a drive to test the very limits of human capability. Today, we dive into all of it. She is a true delight. She's a good sport. And I should say that when we wrapped, I had the rare good fortune to hit the trails with her and our mutual friend, Billy Yang, which was fun, also humbling, but a treat for sure. So that's it. Let's go. This is me and Courtney DeWalter. That's it, let's go. This is me and Courtney DeWalter.

All right, all right, all right. You're actually here. Oh, geez. Oh, that's so Minnesota. Right out of Fargo. I love Minnesota and I love Minnesotan sayings. So I'll see how many I can sneak in. Yeah, I was like weave them in,

weave them in whenever you want to. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for coming out to do this many I can sneak in. Yeah, I was like weave them in, weave them in whenever you want to. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you for coming out to do this. I really appreciate it. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time. Yeah, thank you. How are you feeling these days? Good, yeah, I'm excited.

The snow is starting to melt in Colorado, so. Well, it's June, I hope. Yeah, it takes a while. Yeah. So it's getting warm out there. You're totally healed up after the Colorado Trail bronchitis episode. Yeah, totally healed up.

I probably only had a couple months where I noticed that in my lungs last year. And then, yeah, it was kind of like all green lights once they healed. And you're getting ready to tackle a pretty auspicious double. You're gonna do UTMB in August or in Hard Rock 100 in July 1st, right?

And then right on the back of that a month later, UTMB. Yeah, 200 mile races. It'll be really cool. Short ones. Yeah. I don't, I mean, it's just a fun challenge. I think they're like six weeks apart. So I have no idea what the time between will look like.

I think just kind of figure that out as I go and try to be ready to rumble at both of them. When you say you have no idea, that's sort of revealing in terms of your approach to your training, right? Like you're this intuitive when it comes to how you approach your routine. Correct, yeah, there's no plan. That's so crazy.

You literally, do you wake up in the morning and then make the decision or do you plan the day before? Do you plan a week? I mean, you must have a general idea other than like, okay, I typically put in a hundred miles a week. You must have a little bit more of a specific sense of what you're trying to accomplish.

Like walk me through this so I better understand. Because you play it off like with this very aw shucks, you know, disposition, but I know there's more going on. Nope, it's all aw shucks. No, so every day I do wake up and after drinking coffee, I'll figure out what I'm doing that day. There's no like, there's no plan going into a week what the days might hold, but I will know when races are and I will know when I can go

kind of hog wild with training and when I should pull in the reins a little bit and be smart because there's a race coming up or I should focus on something specific like climbing in the mountains or trying to run a little bit faster. So I'll know those things. It's not totally winging it in that way, but every single day it's deciding how I feel physically and mentally to determine what the run will be. Is there any scheduling of like, okay, on these days I typically go longer and these are more tempo days or technique days

or speed focus days. Not really. Or you just go out and these are more tempo days or technique days or speed focus days? Not really. Or you just go out and go long pretty much and just switch up the terrain based upon what you're training for. Yeah, a lot of the days are just long days, but I'll do intervals and stuff. I sometimes won't even know when those are going to happen

once I'm on the run. There's just a few routes that I'll do where there's a hill that I really like to do intervals on. So if I get to that spot on the route and I feel it, then I'll pop some into it. And if not, then I just carry on. And does that come into play? Like it doesn't appear that you've ever over-trained, right?

Do you know when to back off so you don't kind of tip over into that terrain where you're gonna wear yourself down too much and not be able to recover? Is that all on feel as well? Or have you just not, you have such a capacity, you're such a workhorse that you've never hit that place? No, I've made mistakes for sure,

or just tried to keep loading it on. But I think that's part of what I like about not having a plan is that I get to just figure it out by making those mistakes. So run myself into a ground one week and realize like that was a few too many miles. So now I can go from there

and try and hone in on what I'm doing a little bit. And no coach input. No. I did though. I mean, I grew up with fantastic coaches. So in high school and in college, I worked with some amazing people. And I think like they showed me all the types of workouts

that you can be doing. It wasn't for ultra running, but like I'll still draw on that and use some of what I learned from them to decide what I might do. What's interesting about that is you have a science background, you are a science teacher, right?

So why not avail yourself of like the science, like, oh, periodization seems to work or maybe you're already doing that, I don't know. But there's a lot of athletes and you see this much more in track and field or in triathlon than you do in trail running where people get really into the graphs and the heart rates and the power output and, you know, all

these data points around sleep performance and all of that and, you know, get mired in that in terms of trying to figure out how to crack the code on training. Yeah, that's exactly what I don't want. Right. In your scientific approach. Yeah. Why not? I mean, I'm having so much fun with how it is right now and I don't have a reason to change it. I also, I don't know, I think that without a plan, I do much better actually listening to my body. So I pay more attention if there's no schedule and there's no workout written down,

then I can really tune in and react. If it's an off day, then I don't do a workout. You have no problem like pulling the plug. Yeah. And I don't feel any guilt because there was nothing planned anyways. I don't know because I haven't had a plan or a coach in ultra running, but I feel like I could get like really attached to it if I had it and then disregard, you know, any symptoms or signs that I should change course. Right, thinking, oh, I need to accomplish this because the coach said, this is what I need to do. And then that ends up corrupting

this sort of perfect situation that you have for yourself. It's not perfect, but I think if it's fun and I'm enjoying every day and I'm still like, I'm still getting in the miles and the workouts that I'd like, then I'm gonna stick with it for now. I can see tons of benefits of having a coach, but for now I would-

Keep it this way. Yeah. It's working, right? Don't mess with it. I do think that that happiness piece is a big part of your secret sauce. Like you're able to find the joy in all facets of this. And that seems to be like fuel, right?

A lot of people in this subculture, they are powered by, oh, I'm just the grit and how hard it is. And I'm gonna really embrace the suffering and not from a victimhood place, but kind of like a more hardcore relationship to the difficulty of completing these races and the training that goes into them.

And you're just having fun like all the time. Like Billy Yang is here and I texted him the other day and I told him you were coming and he's like, oh, that's so great. 100% approval rating in the trail community. Like there's nobody that doesn't love Courtney and no matter how hard the race is or whatever you're enduring internally,

you always have a smile on your face. You always have a moment to give a high five to a little kid or to say a nice thing to a volunteer on the course. And that takes a conscious effort. Like there's a certain disposition that you have that seems to be unwavering. Well, thank you. We're so lucky to be able to choose something like this

to do with our time. So I think if you're not having fun with it, then I don't know, maybe reconsider some things. Yeah, but fun isn't, I mean, it is fun and everything about trail running is awesome. But for a lot of people, fun isn't in like the top five adjectives, you know, how they describe their participation in this. So how do you keep that in check?

It's just natural to you, right? Must be in Minnesota. Yeah. I like how you don't seem to overthink things too much. I think that's also, there's a lesson in that, right? Like you just, you're having fun, you go out, you train really hard, you go in with a smile, you're a competitor, but in your kind of list of priorities,

like keeping it fun, keeping it light, staying present with what you're doing seems to be the priority. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure every interview you do, they ask you, how come you're so much better than everyone else, right? And you always have a very diplomatic response to that,

but I don't wanna let you off the hook on this. Like somebody who's crushed it, you know, there's these famous stories about you winning the Moab 240 by 10 hours and all these other, you know, races that you've destroyed, everybody, men included, you seem to sort of shrug it off, but you must think at some point, like how come this is the case?

Like what is, when you go to sleep at night, do you, does it ever, like, do you ever ponder? Like what is the differentiator between you and your fellow competitors? No, I don't ponder. Oh man. I mean, I think like everyone can be pushing themselves. So I can't compare like what it's like in someone else's body or head

than what's going on in mine. So I have no idea. But I do know like I enjoy that place that we get to go to in these ultras where it hurts really bad. I think that's pretty cool. that place that we get to go to in these ultras where it hurts really bad. I think that's pretty cool. And I mean, that's gotta help like not avoiding it, but wanting to get to it has gotta be

like factored in there somehow. Yeah, sure. Okay, let's go a little bit deeper. Tell me a little bit more about what that is when you reach that point or that limit or that place where you feel like you can't put one foot in front of the other. Like what is the lesson that you find for yourself in that?

So I call it the pain cave, that place. And I guess like probably four or five years ago, I viewed the pain cave as like this place that you should try to put off as long as possible in a race, like make your pain cave be as far away from you as you can. And if you arrive to it, from you as you can. And if you arrive to it, then you just sit in it and you try and survive the pain cave. But in the past couple of years, I mean, it's just a mindset, right? It's like all in our heads, this thing. And in the past couple of years, it's been the place I want to get to. So like changing it to a place where I get to celebrate that I made it there. And then that's where the work actually happened. So making the pain cave bigger is how I view it instead of like pushing the pain cave away. And I think, I mean, our minds are so powerful. So even just

like changing the storyline makes it a whole different game. Right, so what is the story that you, like what is the script that you flip when you're in that head space and it's getting really hard? Yeah, it's like perfect, this is what we wanted. Like now we get to actually do the hard work of making the cave bigger. And so it's like picturing a chisel and just like making tunnels in my pain cave in my brain.

Right. You actually visualize that? Yeah, I'm super visual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. It makes it very visceral and like real. If you can, it's not just a mantra and mantras are great. I'm sure you have mantras,

but actually creating that three-dimensional image in your mind. Yeah, yeah, and all, I mean, it's just telling myself a different story about that place where it hurts so bad, you know, where before it was like surviving it and now it's like, this is so cool we made it here and now we work. Yeah, it's funny, I've been doing this podcast thing

for a couple of years at this point, and I've had a lot of people on who have done hard things, and I have psychologists and psychiatrists and mindset experts, and everybody kind of comes to the table and they're like, this is how you do it. And it's like step one, two, three, and like when your mind does this,

and you're just like, well, I just, you know, like it's very refreshing because what it does is it dispels this myth that it has to be complicated or that there is a right or a wrong way. Like you're just embracing life in all its colors and have figured out this thing that works for you, but it's welcoming to people because you're saying like,

look, I'm doing this, you can do this too. Like you're creating space for other people to see greater possibility in themselves because of that relatability. Well, thank you. Yeah. That's very kind. Yeah, no, I think it's powerful.

It's really powerful. In the equation of mind versus body, like how do you think about that? Like how much of it is physical prowess versus mental grit? It's both for sure. And I think in an ultra, it trades back and forth between the two. So like maybe for a while,

your physical has to pull more of the weight because it can. And then if that's giving out, maybe the mental takes over for a while, your physical has to pull more of the weight because it can. And then if that's giving out, maybe the mental takes over for a while. So I think they tag each other out back and forth where you need them for sure. Like physically, it's hard to run this far, but mentally you can like move your feet much farther than you think. Right, yeah, ultimately I think the differentiator is in the mental game because everybody, especially at the elite level is training really hard.

And there's only so much training that you can do before you get injured or you over train, right? So when you tow the line at the starting line, you can be assured that everybody who's a threat to your dominance has put in the work that you've put in, right? So when you tow the line at the starting line, you can be assured that everybody who's a threat to your dominance has put in the work that you've put in, right? So the person who's gonna win, it's gonna come down to who's gonna crack mentally

when the tough gets going. Yeah, and like who can problem solve efficiently or not let problems that come up ruffle their feathers too much. I think that's huge in ultras. Yeah, just being able to maintain that positive disposition rather than, oh no, this is terrible thing.

Right. Awesome, this is what it's about, right? Yeah, exactly. How do you keep a smile on your face and tell jokes and do all that stuff when you're so freaking exhausted? Jokes help everything. Yeah. Yeah. How do you keep a smile on your face and tell jokes and do all that stuff when you're so freaking exhausted? Jokes help everything. Yeah. Yeah.

That's part of the strategy. Sneaky. Yeah. I'm actually really bad at telling jokes. So it's like a mental game for myself to try and tell a joke with the correct punchline. So maybe it's like a- Making sure that you're still lucid. A sanity check, yeah.

It is so interesting that equation between mental and physical. Like we were chatting before the podcast, I was in Utah the last couple of days. I joined the Iron Cowboy for day 91 on his conquer 100 insanity quest. So cool. And that guy is a master of the mental game.

And he's somebody who's so physically strong, but also somebody who's mental game so far exceeds his physical capabilities that this guy's willing to just completely break his body. Like he will not crack. There's no way he's gonna give up for a physical reason. His mental game is so strong that he will literally run. There's no way he's gonna give up for a physical reason. His mental game is so strong

that he will literally run his body into the ground and do irreparable damage before he pulls out of this thing, which is worrisome, I think, but also impressive. And one of the things I noticed, I walked a marathon with him the other day, is just his ability to remain positive under all circumstances. And there's so many people that are congregated around him

and they all want a piece of him. And he makes time for every single one of those people and then finishes the day and always like spontaneously deliver some impassioned inspirational speech for everybody to take home with them. And the kind of presence of mind that you have to have to do that,

I think is really the differentiator. And the way that you carry yourself as similar, like what you do is, the way you do it is different, but in the Venn diagram, like it's that positivity piece, I think, that is really powerful. Yeah, well, thank you. So what's his mood like as he's walking?

Well, you don't know what's going on internally because he refuses to say anything negative. So no matter what's happening, he's like, it's awesome. This is great. You know, it's just like, we're just doing it, man. You know, like, I'm like, are you okay? That's cool. I think he is. Like he seems genuinely in a good place right now.

And he's had his ups and downs of course, over the last 93 days or whatever it is. And he will have completed it hopefully by the time this goes up, but it's, you know, there's so much to learn by just observing somebody like that. Yeah, for sure. What you project out, I mean, hearing it,

like you're hearing it in your head, but when you say it out loud, it can make a huge difference. Right, it makes it real or more real at least. I've told, so my husband is often the crew at my races and beforehand we're always like, I don't know, I tell him just don't ask me how it's going during because if it's going bad, I don't know, I tell them just don't ask me how it's going during, because if it's going bad,

I don't need to tell you that, like, you know, and if it's going good, we don't need to say that either. Let's just like carry forward. Right, right, right, right. Because it does nothing to tell you how bad my legs hurt right now. Is that outlook something you've always had or something that you've developed or learned?

To not wanna share how it's going. No, no, no, just being like understanding the power of positivity and having that kind of fortitude around protecting your state of mind. Like, is that a Minnesota thing? Is that the way your parents raised you? Is that something you've learned as an athlete in high school?

Or is that just Courtney? Yeah, I feel like ultra running has taught a lot of it to me. When you're in those 100 or 200 mile races, you can learn a lot about what your brain can do and what's helpful from your brain. But for sure, it's gotta come a little bit from my upbringing, from my parents, my coaches,

my friends, and just examples. What do you think about, I mean, your accomplishments put you in the bullseye of this ongoing, I don't wanna call it a debate, a conversation around the role of male versus female in terms of prowess in the ultra world, right? Like the longer, the science basically proves that the longer the distance is,

the less of a difference sex makes, right? So these two forties, like these super long races, like whether you're male or female, seems to not make very much of a difference. And it's one of the few sports in which the women can like crush the dudes. I think as the distance increases, it becomes a little more equal for sure,

because then it is a lot in your head and it's about, you know, persistence and problem solving and some stubbornness, you know, all of those factor in quite a bit as you're out there for over 24 hours. I think like Big's Backyard is a great example of a format that I think is pretty equal in what's possible and who might win it every single year, where it's that four mile loop every single hour, line up on the hour, every hour and do it again until no one will anymore. Right. It becomes a battle of will as much as anything else, right? And I want to talk about that in a minute cause I think that's fascinating. But being a science teacher, former science teacher,

it makes me think perhaps there is some evolutionary advantage that females developed as the child rearers that they are, they have, they carry with them like a deeper reservoir of psychological endurance and capacity versus men, right? It seems like it would make sense. I don't know if anybody studied this. Yeah, I have no idea.

I think it would be a cool thing for someone to focus their studies on if they aren't already. Yeah, yeah, It's wild. It's wild. I remember like before you were born, when I was, after I was, I grew up as a swimmer and after college, I moved to New York City and my roommate, this guy, Matt Nance

was a teammate of mine, very good swimmer, much better than me. And he decided to do the race around Manhattan, which is a 28 mile swim around the Island of Manhattan. And at this time I had no interest in any endurance. I was like, go for it. Like I'm not interested. And he ended up getting second place.

And I think he, I can't remember, this was like 1990. I think he broke the course record, but he got beat by a 15 year old girl from Australia. Wow. This girl, Susie Maroney, who ended up winning that race a bunch of times, maybe three times or something like that. You know, so at a 28 mile swim,

like she just crushed him. I should beat him by like five minutes or something like that. Really? Yeah. A sprint finish? No, I think she had a good lead on him. Okay. Yeah, at that point.

But it goes to that point of when you reach a certain distance, I don't wanna say gender, cause it's not gender, it's sexual. What do you call it? Sexual genetics really don't play the factor that they do in other sport pursuits. Yeah, I mean, I think it gets closer for sure.

I would love to just, I mean, 200s are kind of new. So I would love to see how over the years with if there's more men, more women competing, like just get more people out there and see what happens. Because I think, I mean, those 200s are fun because there's like not a ton of information about how they're done or, you know, what's the formula to do this as fast as possible. Whereas like there's tons of hundred mile races that, I mean, you can look at people's splits, you could read about their very specific training. Like there's all sorts of information about that.

And the 200s, I think it's just a little less known. And there's a few more variables that make it hard to. Right, yeah, it's at the cutting edge of where this sport is going. I mean, it's crazy how much the sport has blown up. And the fact that so many people sign up for a hundred mile races now is like wild. They all sell out.

I know. Yeah. And it's weird how the mind goes well, okay, 200. Like as if it's somewhat the same thing. Yeah. Like it's only double, like the longest thing you can ever imagine, right? And how many people are actually signing up for 200 miles?

I mean, in maybe five or 10 years, it will be like the hundreds are right now, right? I think so. But there's so little, it's so new, right? That you're one of the pioneers here trying to figure out how to optimize performance at that distance. It's a fun one to play with. Do you wish that the races were like 300 miles?

Absolutely. 400 miles? Yes. Like the longer the better, right? Yeah, keep going. I know when you were on Rogan, there was some discussion about a 500 mile race. Yeah, that hasn't happened yet. But like the Colorado trail that I tried is about 500 miles. And so I was kind of looking for starting

to figure out that distance with that. Right. So that was your first FTK attempt. That was sort of a COVID inspired pursuit, right? Like all the races were canceled. So you were gonna tackle this trail, which takes you from Durango to Denver? Correct.

500 miles? Yeah. You had a little hiccup though. Yeah. What happened? Well, oh man, it's a beautiful trail. I mean, it's this beautiful single track that goes over tons of mountain ranges

through the state of Colorado. And I'd been eyeing it for a few years, but the pandemic and all the races being canceled for sure suddenly made it like, I mean, we had a wide open summer to just go for it. So I ended up making it about 300 and I don't know, five miles and then was put in the ER because my lungs just weren't working like they were supposed to. Yeah. You had to be put on like oxygen, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It was weird because it started early on, like right when I started the trail, I remember commenting to my crew at one of the stops, like everything feels amazing, but my lungs just are being lazy right now. I thought they just weren't turning on like the rest of it, but I figured they just needed some more hours, and then they would realize what we were doing

and they would come with. Right, it comes around. Like that's that thing in ultras where you can't really make a informed decision about what's going on or how you feel based on the moment because it changes. Exactly. But it just kept getting worse.

So I was like wheezing and coughing up a lot of things. And it was preventing like any good forward motion, but also like sleep wasn't possible anymore because every time I laid down, I was just like wheezing, like I was breathing through a tiny straw. Right. And you had crew with you the whole way?

I did, yeah. I had a fantastic group. You couldn't have been in like, you know, a situation where you were out of cell range or anything like that and in real jeopardy. Yeah, I always had a crew. I always had someone running with me who had like a satellite thing that they could communicate.

So we could have figured it out if anything had really gone to the garbage. But my crew just like made the call at 305 where we had stopped for a rest stop. And they had been, you know, watching this get progressively worse over the course of these days. And then finally they were like, we gotta just go to this hospital nearby and get you checked out. And beforehand I had told them like, you know what we're trying to do.

So if you decide something about like how much I should rest or not rest or eat or not eat, like I trust you a hundred percent because I know my brain is gonna turn to mush. And so when they said that, I mean, for sure, I needed a little explanation of like, I've been wheezing for hundreds of miles at this point. Like I thought we were just gonna take that wheeze

to Denver, like it was coming all the way. That's where like, maybe you don't have a coach, but you need some third party intervention here because your mental toughness will forbid you from stopping. Yeah, I mean, even coming into that spot, I had told them like, I just wanna grab a slice of pizza and then let's keep going.

And they were like, no, please stop and rest. So I stopped to rest and then they were like, hey, we're gonna take you to the hospital. And even on the drive to the hospital in my head, I was like, I'm just gonna tell this doctor what I'm doing. And he's gonna say, that's fine, go back out there. He's putting oxygen on your face and saying, you're not going anywhere, right?

I'm sure they were really worried. I mean, there was a sense that, you know, that something could be really wrong. Yeah, and I mean, hindsight, like I'm so thankful that the crew made that tough call because they were as invested in it as I mean, hindsight, like I'm so thankful that the crew made that tough call because they were as invested in it as I was, they didn't wanna pull the plug. And that then the doctor kind of painted the picture

of this could have gone really far south if they hadn't brought you in. Right, do you think it's that thing where you probably had some really low grade infection, but you're out there crushing it and it just depresses your immune response, right? So it allows that infection to take root in a way that if you were just sitting at home on the couch,

you would have been fine. Yeah, I think it had to have been something like that because of how it felt at the beginning where I wanted my lungs to wake up and they weren't. It feels like something was brewing in there, but with acute bronchitis, they don't have like a, they can't pinpoint the cause. Sure, yeah.

And in these super long races, it's those tiny little things that can end up burying you, right? Yeah, yeah, which is why it's so cool. I mean, the longer the race gets or the longer the challenge you're taking on gets, the more puzzle pieces there are that get involved. And I think just playing around with those every time,

it makes you better at doing the puzzles, but also like, it's just a fun game to me. So there's events like that, this self-styled, like I'm gonna tackle this trail and do it faster than anybody. There's the structured races like the Moab 240 or UTMB, which is kind of like the Superbowl of trail races. And then there are these last man standing races, right?

The backyard ultra that you referenced earlier, which I think is such a cool format. Yes. Do you, is there one of those formats that you enjoy best? Like, I feel like the backyard ultra format, the last man standing kind of thing is perfectly suited for you.

Yeah, I love those. I love all the events though. They just change in what I love about them. Like a 240 or a hundred mile race, I love because it's usually a really cool course. You know, you're getting to explore with your feet and then ones like these loop courses, it's more like exploring in your brain

of how to go a little bit deeper. So for, just so you know, like there's a percentage of the audience that is probably a super fan of yours and knows everything that you've done, but there's also a large percentage of them for whom perhaps this is their first introduction to you. So let's talk about what this backyard ultra situation is.

You do this four mile loop, right? And basically they're on the hour, essentially. They're on the hour. So you run four miles and however long it takes, and then you just have to start the next loop at the top on the hour. So you run four miles and however long it takes. And then you just have to start the next loop at the top of the hour. And then you just keep going until no one's left. So you don't know how long the race is gonna be.

Exactly. Right? And so you just did this past year and ended up running 283 miles. That's correct. It's like 67 loops, is that right? Yeah, 67. You're the science person.

Right. A lot of loops. 67 or 68. Until it was just you and Harvey Lewis. Yeah. Right? Yeah, who's an amazing human. And it was just the two of us from 200 miles on. So the way the race works is everyone starts all at once

and then every loop you're starting again all together. So you're never, you can't like get ahead by a certain amount of time or bank time anywhere. It's one hour and that's it. You set the clock every lap. Yeah, and you can either quit bank time anywhere, it's one hour and that's it. Every lap. Yeah. And you can either quit and refuse to start another lap or you can miss the hour cutoff. And that's how the field just starts getting smaller

and smaller. So it ended up with Harvey and I at about 204 miles or so. And we're, I mean, the cool part about this format is you need each other because once it's, once you're the last person standing, the race is over. You can't keep going. Yeah. You don't get to keep doing those four mile laps, even if you feel fine. So Harvey and I were like full on, let's work as a team. We want to get, you know, over 300 miles. How can we help each other? And we talk on the loops, like, what do you need? What do I need? How do we keep this train rolling? But then part of it is also, you've gone so far that you need to like, really just focus on like,

not imploding yourself. Right. And so there were quite a few laps where we were both just like totally focused inward on keeping it moving. Yeah. But that is beautiful and very unique in that your main competitor must become your ally if you really wanna push the envelope and see what's possible for each of you.

I think it's so cool. And that to be going that far, you both need so many things to have gone right for you. Like that's a far ways to run with your feet. So there's all these like hurdles along the way that you have to navigate and to have two people have days like that is really special.

But I think, I mean, the whole field is like a team. Everyone wants everyone to keep going. The more numbers you have getting into those higher distances, the more likely everyone is to keep going farther. Because if you're surrounded by 10 people, it feels less crazy than if you're surrounded by one person. Right, right, right. Yeah, it goes back to that mental game. It's the same notion that when, prior to Bannister breaking the four minute mile mark, people thought it was impossible. He breaks it, then suddenly,

all kinds of people are breaking it. Like it's so strange that that's the way the human mind operates. Yeah. But it is true. It's very true. Yeah. But did you feel like you could have kept going if there was somebody like Harvey taps out?

Yeah. I mean, yes, I was set on continuing on. And in the moment I felt like I could do more, but you never know. Like the race is as crazy as it is because one bad hour can take you out. Right. And then suddenly you're done.

Or one bad footstep where you roll your ankle or something like that happens. Yeah. So yeah, I was, when he dropped, I had gotten into this really good zone. I was like kind of robotic through the loop and I knew my spots where I ran and I knew my spots where I ran and I knew my spots where I walked

and it was like, just put it on autopilot. And yeah, I was kind of having fun, like being a robot. And where does your mind go? Like what's happening? Are you daydreaming? Are you focused on what you're doing? Are you listening to music and audio book? Like what is that about?

So when he stopped, it was in the night and in the night sections, we switched to a road out and back and there's music allowed in the night. So I think I was blasting some music. And then I think I was just like really embracing the robot mentality of like, don't think about anything, just do and like stay right where your feet are.

Because that one, any ultra really, but that format in particular, if you project too far ahead, like how much farther are we gonna be going? Are you kidding? We have to run until sunrise or like, or you start thinking about how the other person is looking and like, they'll never quit, you know?

Yeah. Then it can get into your head and spiral pretty quickly. Yeah, none of that's helpful. No. You just have to be where your feet are, right? Yeah. But that's a discipline. Yeah, it's hard, but I'll even like talk outside.

I'll talk out loud to myself, Like, no, stay right here. If I start thinking ahead too far. Yeah, what else do you tell yourself? Mostly it's like stay here and then this is fine. And I'll just say that over and over. This is fine. This is fine. This is fine.

We're good. No matter what. And when you come in at the conclusion of a loop, obviously you're eating, you're trying to rest. Like what does that routine look like? And what is the sleep piece? Yeah. I think this is the one where,

I mean, just doing the race format, you learn so much from it and seeing, you know, what's helpful. What does five minutes feel like? What does eight minutes feel like? Of sleep. Learning all of that or just time. Like, I mean, we rarely look and see what five minutes feels like when we're just like in normal life. But when you're in this format, five minutes is really important and you need to use it fully.

Right. Like everything should have a purpose. And so I think I was averaging daytime loops at like maybe 48 minutes or 50 minutes. And then nighttime loops, because it's that road out and back, it's a little easier. And so I was probably coming in at more like 45.

So you're getting anywhere between 10 and 15 minutes. Yeah. At night, we had a really good routine of just, I would come in the little tent, I had a cot set up and I would shovel some bites of food and then I would lay down and I'd have 10 minutes until the two minute whistle blew. And then I would get up, maybe drink some things and then get back out there. And even if I wasn't falling asleep, I would just lay there pretending like I was sleeping.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just convincing myself that that pays off also. Were you able to fall asleep though? Sometimes, yeah. So there's the famous story of in the Moab 240, you got one minute of sleep for the whole thing, but you felt like you slept for hours or something. Fully recharged after one minute.

Was it really one minute? It was. It was. That's so crazy. So crazy. I thought my pacer had tricked me. I thought he let me sleep for 45 minutes there. It was 60 seconds. You were mad at him.

Yeah. Why'd you let me oversleep? Now you could get like 10 minutes of sleep. Yeah, I've never been able to replicate that one minute nap though. Like I did another 200 mile race, the Tahoe 200, and I was trying, I was hoping for that magic. You're like, I know how to do this now.

I totally thought I'd figured out the sleep thing and then I couldn't get it to work again. So, I mean, that keeps me coming back to these as well as like, you think you learn something, you think you have a puzzle piece figured out and then you gotta throw it back in and start again. Do you think that the sleep deprivation part of the whole thing

is something that some people are better at than others? Or do you think it's just hard for everyone? Like, I feel like maybe you're well-suited to manage that maybe better than other people. Like, is that part of something you would consider to be an advantage? Maybe, I'm not sure though. I think- Yeah, you don't think about it.

That's it, that's my answer for everything. Yeah, well, listen, it's working for you. Don't think about it. We did it, we figured it out. Well, there's nothing you could do about it. Either you're good at it or you're not, right? Yeah, but I've, so I'm still learning and I'm like, I love that I can

use myself as this guinea pig and just test things and see. And like Johan Steen is another runner who has done backyard races amongst many other things. And watching him the first year at the backyard race that I went to, he would come through a loop, sit down and immediately be sleeping every single lap that year. And so he's like nailed it. And I would like to figure it out so I could nail it like that. So as a tinkerer or somebody who is experimenting,

but is also self coach, like what is something that you've learned over maybe even the last two or two and a half years that you're doing now that you weren't doing in 2018 or 2019? Like where are the kind of evolutionary arcs in your training or your kind of strategy with these races? That's tricky. I think getting on trails more

and yeah, playing on mountains more. More play, more play. Yeah. And then I think just learning from all the problems that come up, like you do these long races, inevitably there's problems that come up and then you've experienced those problems.

So then you have this filing cabinet in your brain where you can say like, here's all the things that I know of already that can go wrong. And that can help you better prepare for the next one where maybe those things happen again, but also maybe something brand new. But also collecting all those experiences,

you know, when things get tough, like I've been here before and this is what I did, or I got through it, so I know I can get through it again. Yeah, for sure, I'll think that if I'm, you know, like puking in the bushes, I can open up a whole folder in this filing cabinet of times I've been throwing up during a race, you know? And like, then the options that I have of what worked before

or what I at least tried before. Right. I feel like you need to get into a lab and have some tests run. You know, like they've done tests on Killian. They know he has a crazy, you know, threshold. Alex Honnold has had his brain analyzed and they realize his brain is a little bit different

when it comes to his fear response. Like, I feel like we need to get Dr. Andrew Huberman, my neuroscience buddy to test your head and see what's going on. Or like, have you had all those markers evaluated so you know where you are? You haven't even done that, right? I feel like let's get you in the lab.

What if they- Let's figure out what's going on. What if they only find air? But that would be instructive too, right? Now we know, you know? Like either you have some, you know, genetic disposition that differentiates you. And even if you don't, that's super interesting also,

you know, because then it does, I think in my mind that tells me, And even if you don't, that's super interesting also, because then it does, I think in my mind that tells me, oh, this person has developed a mental toughness that you can't calibrate with any scientific rigor. And that's interesting to explore in and of itself. Yeah, I would be curious what they would be like testing for looking for. Well, they could test your like,

I mean, you're not wearing a watch right now. How do you measure crazy? Yeah, I know, right? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe some scientist knows how to do that. It's not crazy, but you know, they could test your aerobic threshold

and your resting heart rate and your heart rate variability and like all of that kind of stuff that you ignore. Yeah. You wear a watch though when you're running, don't you? I do. Do you wear a heart rate monitor? Nope. I just have the one that's built into the watch,

but I don't really use heart rate. Just go with the joy. Is that surprising? No, it's not surprising at all. Like I kinda love it, you know? I think I have a good gauge of effort. I'm sure you know. Yeah, it's like you're so connected to yourself that you don't need that

because you already know intuitively where you're at, right? And that comes with experience. You've been doing this for a long time. Pretty long. Yeah, I mean, when did you start running cross country in junior high, high school? Yeah, cross country starting in middle school and then cross country skiing through high school.

Yeah, and you were a state champion in cross country skiing. Yeah. Aren't you? Why are you like laughing? Why is that so funny? It's not, I'm just awkward. You're not awkward, relax. We're just having fun here.

It's all good. It's all good. It seems like your parents are really supportive and cool. Yeah, they're the best. They're amazing. I was watching the video that Solomon made around the Western States with your parents there. They were so cute being interviewed.

They were so fired up to get to see this race where it's like kind of, there's so many crowds and so much excitement around it. So I was really lucky they could come out for it. Ever since I started doing these ultras, they've been full on supportive. And like the first hundred mile race that I ended up finishing.

So my second one I had signed up for, it was just my dad and brother and Kevin as my crew. None of us knew what we were doing. And we're like, you know, up in the woods of Minnesota at the Superior 100, like figuring out what these aid stations are and what the trail looks like and how to even like go about getting to a finish line.

Right. Yeah, I think there's this misconception that you like won your first race and it's just been podiums ever since, but you started in what, like 2012 running ultras? And it was a couple years of you growing and learning before you hit your stride and started winning. For sure, yeah.

It took a lot of races to start to put the pieces together. Did you know with that first one then though, that like, oh, this is gonna be my thing? No, I think, so I just stumbled upon the ultra running world. I had no idea they existed. And there was a 50K at a local park. So I signed up for that and was intrigued by it,

but I wasn't like hooked on the sport right away. And then I did a 50 mile race a little bit later that year and that got me hooked all the way. And then I just wanted 50 mile race a little bit later that year, and that got me hooked all the way. And then I just wanted to know what else was out there and what could I try? What was the decision to sign up for the first race though? Why were you interested to begin with? So I did a road marathon and surprised myself by finishing it. I didn't think I'd actually get to the finish line of 26.2 miles. I thought my legs would shatter. I thought I would die on the side of this road. And when I finished

it, it kind of like flipped a switch for me of just wondering if that sounded too hard, but I did it. What else is there that sounds too hard that I could try? So I tried like a Tough Mudder then, and then stumbled upon like these races that were just a smidge longer than a road marathon, a 50K, what, five miles more. I was like, I gotta try and see if the extra five miles kills me.

And then it didn't. Well, if that didn't kill me. Exactly, yeah. So then it was a real quick progression. I did the 50 mile race, got hooked and didn't die. And then instantly I wanted to try a hundred miles. It really fits your disposition though, because as somebody who is all about intuitive feel

to be a marathon runner is really kind of a data driven thing like, oh, here are the workouts you need to do. And here's how you have to hit your splits. But trail running is all about the terrain dictating everything. So all of that goes out the window. And it's just about like being present in the experience

and tackling things as they're thrown at you. Yeah, for sure. And it's not about anyone else other than you and you. Yeah, I think in that 50K, I was so surprised that everyone was chatting out on this trail, you know, winding through the woods, no one's watches were beeping splits. And then at aid stations,

we got to just fill our pockets with jelly beans. I was like, I'm in. We're gonna talk about your garbage patch kids diet. I feel like we have a lot in common there. Yeah. Oh my goodness. You're young. There's more to learn.

It is interesting as somebody who's trying to achieve peak performance in all these areas that your approach is to not focus on all these things where people are trying to get that incremental advantage, whether it's through some scientific approach to training or a dietary approach, like you're just like, no, not doing that. I eat whatever, nachos, cheeseburgers, French fries.

So good. Candy. Right? Has that evolved at all? No. No. No, and I realized like that is definitely an area where maybe if I did something differently, maybe it would help. But then like weighing that against how much joy I get out of just living life like this.

Yeah. I just, I love nachos too much. I don't blame you. I'm not, I'm like, I got nothing but love for that. You know, I think the enjoyment piece is really important because if you're not enjoying yourself, then you're putting a shelf life on your career. And if it becomes too rigorous or restricted,

whether it's through training or diet or any other, you know, like sleeping in an altitude tent, like all these, you know, like you don't even use Norma tech boots, right? No Norma tech. Has that changed? No. Yeah, you're talking about Rogan't even use Norma tech boots, right? No Norma tech. Has that changed? No. Yeah, you're talking about Rogan.

He couldn't remember what they were called, but like that's something that is like de rigueur with endurance athletes. And you were like, I don't even know what that is. Like that's nuts. But the good thing is if you ever get interested in those things, then there's a whole world of opportunity and possibility ahead of you.

Yeah. To explore all that stuff. I'll just keep them in and possibility ahead of you. Yeah. To explore all that stuff. I'll just keep them in my back pocket. Right. Yeah, pull it out when you need it. But so far so good, right? Let's talk about the Barclay Marathons. Yeah, let's.

I'm fascinated by this race and the people involved and what this is all about. So explain what it is for people who've never heard of it. fascinated by this race and the people involved and what this is all about. So explain what it is for people who've never heard of it. So it's a race in the mountains of Tennessee outside of a prison. And I believe the history came about because a prisoner escaped this prison. And when he was found 60 hours later, he had only made it like five miles or something

from the prison. And so Lazarus Lake is the race director. And I guess him and his buddies were just jawbone in about how they would make it farther and they should then make this race out there. So it's not marked like a normal ultra marathon is, and it's not on actual trails. It's just bushwhacking through these mountains. And you have to complete five 20-ish mile loops in order to be a finisher of the Barkley Marathons. You say 20-ish because they say it's 20, but it's not 20. It's not 20, but maybe 25 or 26 mile loops, not positive. And the way you prove that you made it around the loop correctly is he's hidden books

out in the woods and you have to get to the book and then you rip out your bib number to prove you were at that book and then turn them in when you finish your loop. Right. And it's uncrewed. There's no aid stations. The only time you can get more things

is when you're back at the camp between loops. And then there's a few stops out on the course where he's put some jugs of water. And over, is it five loops total? Five loops total. To complete it? And there's something like 60,000 feet of elevation gain, right? Yeah, easily, I bet.

Uh-huh. I don't know, it's a lot. So you're out there, it's not marked, you don't really know where you're going. I mean, people are getting lost all the time, right? Yeah, yeah, you're- The weather's terrible. The weather is horrendous

and you're navigating just with a compass and the day before the race, he puts out his map that you copy onto your own map of like the line you're supposed to take. It's not a orienteering race. It's not like you can just go any direction through these woods to get to the books. You're supposed to follow his line.

And isn't it a thing where he doesn't tell you when it's gonna start? Yeah. Yeah, he gives you a one hour warning. So it can be anywhere in this like, I don't know, 12 hour window of time or something, 20 hour window of time. And he'll give you the one hour warning.

And this year I was lucky enough to get to try the race and he gave that warning at like 2 a.m. or something. Right, 3 a.m. start. Yeah. He lights the cigarette, which is the thing he does. I mean, he's a character, this guy. He's a character. What is the story with this dude?

Controversial too. Yeah. He's a character, but he's created all these events where like he just wants to help people see what's possible for them. So like Barkley is that, you know, people sign up for it knowing they're not gonna finish probably.

I think in total, there's been 15 finishers ever of the Barkley. And then he's created Big's Backyard where it's like, you know't run until you can't basically. So 15 people total finish. I thought it was a few more than that, I don't know. But no woman has done the whole, has completed the whole thing, is that correct?

Yeah. And when you did it, you did, you completed the first loop within the time limit. And then on the second loop came in like 12 minutes. Yeah. Too late. Yep. We were 12 minutes over the cutoff.

So we weren't allowed to then leave on our third loop. Did anybody finish? No. Two people made it the fun run, which is three loops. So I think it's like 40 hours. You have to get three loops done in, in order to count for a fun run. Right, but it doesn't actually count as.

Right, yeah. So this is like the only race where almost, where basically nobody finishes like every single year. Yeah. How long has it been going on? A long time. Yeah. I'm not sure.

We can look that up. I know. Are you gonna go back to that? You gotta crack that. I'm really intrigued by it. Like just getting my feet wet and getting to actually see what it's all about was really cool.

I mean, it's just as hard as everyone says, like it's just straight up and down these mountain sides. And then finding the books is like this silly game where they're like hidden in the most obscure places. Like it's like in a hole, under a rock, on this log, you know, like it's hard to find them. I can't imagine like being that tired and it's like dark out too, right?

Yeah. So you have this map and you're like, the book's supposed to be here and you can't find like being that tired and it's like dark out too, right? Yeah. So you have this map and you're like, the book's supposed to be here and you can't find it. Yeah. Luckily I was with veterans and so they had a better gauge on like the lay of the land and just having been there before, like there's some spots that he repeats

the book being hidden there. So they knew like, oh, we lift up this one rock and, you know, then it's wherever. But like the whole first half of the first loop this year was in the dark and then it was in the fog. And so everyone going to the race had told me, pay attention on that first loop, you know, figure out your landmarks so that when you do it again on the second loop, you start to piece it together and you can like see the land in your head and you know where you're going kind of.

And that whole first half of the first loop, I'm like, I couldn't see like 10 feet out. I'm like, guys, I'm really trying to see the landmarks. So, all right, a couple of questions. First of all, the map that you have, is that on a, like an iPhone with a GPS or is that a piece of paper? No technology, so.

Right, so you can't see your dot on the thing to make sure that you're on course. Yeah, no phones, no GPS watches, he issues you. It is an orienteering race then, you said it's not, but it kind of is. Kind of, except in orienteering, can't they go however to get to the point? Oh, I don't know.

Cause this is like a very specific path to get to the book that you're supposed to follow. So maybe it's a little bit orienteering, but not like a free for all. Does he change it up? Like, could you go at other parts of the year and train on the course? So you get familiar with all the rock formations

and everything? You can't train off trail in the park. And so like the park makes a special exception for this race every year to happen off trail. But otherwise during the year, you have to stay on just their normal park trails. Right, right. But this year the watch he gave us was like a pocket watch,

like clicks open with the lid, you know? I mean, it was so useless. And isn't it like the entry fee is like $1.60 or something. And then there's always some random thing also, like a license plate. Yep, license plate. What is that all about? If you're new to the race,

you have to bring a license plate that year. And then if you've done the race before, there's like a different thing you bring him. I think he's done like socks and cigarettes and whatever else. Oh my God. Yeah. It's pretty cool though.

I mean, it was just like, it was silly. The weather was so bad that a few times I was with this small group. We're just going up and down these hillsides and everyone's just slipping everywhere. There's mud down the whole hillside. And so like zooming out and watching it, I'm like, this is like a comedy movie.

Like people are just slipping and falling and like tumbling and then back on their feet and running. Like it was the most normal thing to be doing. Right, right, right. Well, I'm wondering whether there's something so beautiful and pure about that, but also balancing that against, you know, risk and liability as this sport is continuing to grow.

Like it's very much in its juvenile years in terms of what we're learning about what's physically and mentally possible, but also in terms of onboarding all of these enthusiastic runners who are looking to push their limits. And we just saw what happened in China recently where 21 people died.

And when, it's fun to talk, oh, we're sliding around in mud, but like there's real life ramifications to this where people can get seriously hurt. We saw that. And it's gonna be interesting to see how that impacts race directors and races going forward in the United States. Like it's a cautionary tale.

Like this is very real. And people are pushing themselves to places that not everybody's ready to go. And they can be inspired by you, but if they're not somebody who's been doing this for a long time, people can get into very real trouble pretty quickly. For sure, yeah.

And like, just because it's this marked course doesn't give you this bubble of safety around it. Like it's still mountains and there's still- Yeah, and you're in these remote places. There's no hospitals nearby. And most of these races remain very grassroots. You know, there's just a couple people there. There's not a lot of infrastructure. And that's what makes it great and cool and fun

and cultivates this amazing community and rapport that you have with everybody. But on some level, there is a, you know, this is that event, you know, makes me think like, well, maybe it's time to mature a little bit. Yeah, or yeah, I don't know if like the application process needs more, you know, information from each runner to see.

Stronger waivers. Can you- It's your fault. But also like, can you make smart choices out there? Like what's your wilderness training or experience in that kind of thing? I don't know. I don't know what the solution is, but it's scary how real it became

when something like that race happens. And at the same time, there's money coming into the sport. We just saw Ironman partnering with UTMB, which is another controversial thing. Like, how do you feel about that? I am not sure. I don't know. I guess we don't know yet, right?

You'll probably learn more when you go to the race this year. What aspects of the race are gonna be impacted by it, positively or negatively. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, you're gonna be very politic here. I mean, it's hard to know right now. I think that the fear is that

it will corrupt the integrity of it. On the positive side, there's an infusion of money that could make the sport better and create opportunities for more runners and the like. But I think protecting the integrity and the legacy and what makes ultra running and that community special is important. And so I think people are afraid

that that partnership could threaten that. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm not even trying to stay neutral. I feel like I've just read a lot of things where it's like guessing what might happen. Right, all these hot takes, but we don't know yet. Yeah. We don't know. We'll see soon enough, right?

Yeah. Of the two races that you're preparing for right now, let's talk about the differences between something like Hard Rock and UTMB because they're very different. Yeah, the courses will be kind of similar. I mean, they're both mountain terrain, lots of climbing, but just the races in general are all the way different. Hard Rock has like 150 people in the race.

UTMB has thousands and thousands. It's crazy the crowds show up for that. Yeah, I mean, I've only been over there once, but it was insane. I've never experienced anything like that, but I'm excited to have both of them. I think it's so cool when you roll into an aid station, that's just a folding table out in the middle of nowhere

with some volunteers that camped there the night before to get there. I think that's just as special as like rolling through a hyped up town with crazy tents and NASCAR style crewing. So it'll be fun to have these races that are both beautiful mountain hundred mile races, but then different in so many other ways. And what does the training look like in between the two?

Are you just trying to like recover as much as possible so you can be fresh? Yeah, I think that'll be really play it by ear and see what my body needs and how my brain is feeling. Maybe some weeks of training squeezed in there, but maybe it'll just be like recovering and then trying to show up as fresh as possible at UTMB. Well, I guess you'll just wake up in the morning

and figure it out, right? Yeah, yeah, after coffee. It's cool, I can't wait to see what you're gonna do. Do you feel like you shoulder a little bit more pressure and a sense of expectations now because of your accomplishments? Does it change how you approach these races? For me, it doesn't, no.

I mean, I expect from myself to give it everything I have. And so what someone else is expecting from me is not part of the equation. That's pretty healthy. I'll do my very best no matter what. That's a healthy mental approach. I mean, I don't know if you saw this this past weekend with Naomi Osaka, like refusing to do press.

Yeah, I just saw that. For her mental health, which made the internet explode. Yeah. But I thought it was really cool that she's like, listen, you know, I'm not a product and I need to protect myself. And why should I expose myself to all of these, you know, reporters who say negative things

and that affects my ability to perform. And I think it's created a really interesting conversation about the responsibility of the media and the empowerment of the athlete to like say no to this stuff. Like just because you're competing at this level doesn't mean that you owe anybody anything. Yeah, super interesting.

She dropped out of the tournament now, I think. Yeah, I think so, yeah. How old is she, do you know? I don't know, I should know, she's young though. Pretty young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was a bold, that was a courageous thing to do, I think, you know.

And there were a lot of the people on the other side saying, this is your job, you know. This goes with the territory, you should know this. And on some level, yes, you make yourself available to the press, but doesn't that need to be reasonable and within certain parameters? And can't we respect the sovereignty of the athlete when they say enough is enough?

Yeah, probably all the social media changes the dynamics of sports. What is your approach to social media? Like, do you feel like you need to be sharing stuff and you've got sponsors and people that, you know, want you to be kind of out there in that way? Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of, I feel sort of new to it still, but I just, it's a cool way to connect with people

is how I view it. And so like, I am having fun sharing my story using it because maybe it can connect with someone who, maybe it helps them try something hard, you know? I don't know. And I mean, my sponsors are fantastic. So I don't have pressure from them to like do a certain thing or.

Solomon is your main sponsor. That's correct. Yeah, you know, I just joined the Solomon team. I'm so excited. Now we gotta go running. I think I'm gonna announce it tomorrow. I'm super excited about it. No, it's hilarious.

Like, oh, joining the Solomon family. I'm like with people like Courtney, like I don't like I'm way in the back. Like, joining the Solomon family. I'm like, with people like Courtney, like I'm way in the back. Like I can't even believe that I'm here, but I'm really excited about it. And I love all the people that I've met and gotten to spend a little bit of time with. And everything is just so dialed in and super pro

from the gear to just the integrity. And it's been really, it's like a dream come true for me. Oh, that's so cool. So Erin and Juris were supposed to come out and do the iron cowboy thing with me the other day, but their youngin wasn't feeling well, so they couldn't do it. But I was hoping to see them on Saturday.

They're so great. Yeah. I'm so pumped you're on the team. I know, I should figure out some kind of, I feel like I have, I really have to live up to this. No. I gotta find some kind of challenge for myself

or whatever to legitimize the relationship. I'm really proud. I'm really proud. Would you wanna do a backyard race? Maybe. I have to put in quite a bit of work between now and maybe in a year. I have to get ready. I gotta heal my back up.

If you had to choose between a backyard or 200. I think I can wrap my head around a backyard. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's cool about it is that it can be as hard as your body is able to go, right? And those little breaks become super significant. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And mentally, it's not as intimidating. And those little breaks become super significant. And mentally it's not as intimidating.

Yeah, it is a cool format. I mean, the first year I was there, I think there was a person who was like, I'm just gonna try to run my first marathon ever today. And they wanted to stay in to get their 26 miles and then they were gonna feel satisfied. And they ended up doing, I think 100K, 62 miles because four miles at a time, they just kept thinking like,

oh, I can do one more. I can do one more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the Goggins challenge where he did the four four by four by 48 was a similar thing because it feels bite-sized and you don't realize that it's actually hard when you think about it until you're actually doing it

and you're in the middle of the night. Right. And it encourages people to try something that maybe they would have been too intimidated to do if it was signing up for like a really long race. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I wanna think of something like, like create my own thing though too.

Like I think there's something cool about that. And, you know, if there was a silver lining to the pandemic with respect to ultras, it was the like backyard, the backyard challenge thing. That was Mike Wardian the one who created that? He's the one who went the furthest. To do the virtual backyard? Yeah, the virtual thing.

Yep, he went the farthest. It was Dave Proctor and his team in Canada who like put together the event. Yeah, yeah, those things are cool. Yeah. To be able to create community when we couldn't be together. Yeah, oh, it was so fun. I know able to create community when we couldn't be together. Yeah, oh, it was so fun.

I know. It felt like we were all hanging out together, even though I was just staring at this little screen. I know, right? I know. Well, it must be nice to feel like you can start traveling now and the world is opening up a little bit and all that.

Yeah, it feels awesome. Yeah. Like seeing people doing things. I think though, like I kind of liked last year and like finding appreciation in these trails that were right out my door all the time that I had, you know, gotten to, I had taken them for granted basically. And then being stuck at home all last spring

and into the summer, it was like, oh, there's a lot of cool link ups you can actually make if you're just looking for it. Right, it encouraged you to explore a little bit more. Yeah, and I saw way more families out on the trails and just getting outside more. So I think it could have some cool things come from it, even though it was definitely not great.

Amelia Boone lives in Golden also, doesn't she? Do you ever go running with her? No, I saw her during a virtual run I was doing and we crossed paths on the trails, but otherwise we haven't run together. Really, didn't you? But one of the, cause the backyard ultra you do it in teams, right?

That like the US has their team and there was like, Because the Backyard Ultra, you do it in teams, right? That like the US has their team and there was like, wasn't Amelia part of one of the teams one of the years? That was in person in Tennessee in the fall. We were able to share a ton of miles there, but never in Golden. That's so, that's funny. I feel like I had this idea like, oh, you guys are like hanging out and running

and having coffee and doing stuff like that all the time. No. No, not recently. Yeah. We should. What is the ultra running community of the future that you would like to see? Like, where is all this heading and like, you know,

explain to somebody who's listening or watching who's unfamiliar with this world, like what's great about it and why maybe they should think of stepping into it. Oh man, so many reasons. Just exploring with your feet, like the places you end up with just your body carrying you there is pretty cool. And it feels special to be in the middle of nowhere and to have gotten yourself there

on purpose. I think it's the most welcoming community. The first 50 mile race I did, one of the things that hooked me was how awesome the people around me were. And I mean, we were in hail and sleet and just awful weather. And people were wearing garbage bags as their raincoats because it kept them a little bit warmer. And all signs pointed to like, we should be hating life right now. But people were just making the best of it. life right now, but people were just making the best of it. They were hooping and hollering, you know, splashing through puddles, finding like all the joy they could in this miserable situation. And they're also the most helpful because in that same race, I face planted in a mud puddle and a person 15 yards ahead ran back, offered their hand and pulled me out of this

puddle to keep running together. Like, where does that happen? You went out of your way to help me. It's not just that I was conveniently in your way. Like they turned around and came back for me. That is something really unique about the community, I think. I find that in every race. I mean, everyone's ready to help. If you're on the side of the trail having trouble, like everyone who goes by is going to ask, what can I do? How can I help you to get back on track?

And you might even hallucinate and you could go blind. Yeah, also perks. Can we talk about the hallucinations? Have you ever hallucinated? No. Yeah. It's fun. You make some good friends.

Yeah. I like your, it's for me, I mean, you hear lots of stories of ultra runners having hallucinations, but what I love about your hallucinations is your relationship to them. Like they're like your friends or something. Like you're like, oh, this is awesome.

There's Mickey Mouse over there doing whatever. Like what's going on? Mickey Mouse was throwing out t-shirts to the crowd and he did not throw me one. Do you know they're not real when they're happening? So there's a detachment or are you thinking this is really real and it's still cool? For the most part now I can tell they're not real.

There are some instances where I have to like take, you know, double or triple takes at something because I can't believe, you know, I'm seeing these people dancing right there and like, what are they doing? But usually I can recognize it's not real. And it means that I'm doing something really cool because these friends don't just come out anytime.

Right, it's special. Here they come. Do you know it's always gonna happen at hour whatever? It's not a certain hour, but it's definitely over 24 hours of effort. And then like nighttime for sure brings out more friends. So like UTMB starts in the evening. And so the night is when you're a little bit fresher.

And so I made no friends at UTMB because- You're like, where are my friends? Yeah. Even though that course would be hard enough and take long enough where maybe I would have made them if the night had been at the end section. I think you're a very healthy person. I'm no shrink, but I think the sort of good natured aspect

of your hallucinations speak to somebody who's a very grounded individual. Like if it was a lot of demons coming out at night and people trying to kill you and stuff. I know my friend. I feel like you should write them all down and then you could give that journal to a psychiatrist and say, tell me who I am.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I want them to analyze it. But I had to, my friend Maggie who does Big's Backyard and all sorts of adventures, she has really scary ones. Like she sees like heads on spears and clowns and stuff. Like Maggie, you gotta watch happy movies the day before. Like she's watching it the night before a race. Hannibal.

Yeah, like what do you think you're gonna see? That's funny. What about the blindness though? Explain that story for people that don't know it. Yeah, I don't recommend it. But what happened was it was a hundred mile race and about 12 miles from the finish, my vision was just getting really foggy on the edges.

I thought it was my contact lenses. I thought it was my headlamp dying. I couldn't figure out what was going on, but I for sure noticed I was seeing less and less. And by 10 miles out from the finish line, it just had closed in all the way where it was pure white in my field of vision. I waved my hand in front of my face and I couldn't see my hand, Like I waved my hand in front of my face and I couldn't see my hand. But there were 10 miles left. And so it was like problem solving, figuring out what solutions I had as options to keep moving forward. I didn't ever feel like it was permanent because it had crept in like it did.

And it didn't come from like falling and hitting my head. It had just like slowly happened over time. So I determined it was safe. And then if I just stared down at my toes, I could see this tiny arc of the trail in front of them to keep moving as quickly as possible. So you could see enough to gauge your foot placement. Yes, I could see that I was on the trail still.

And I knew that section of trail, I knew there weren't like spurs off of it where I would end up lost, you know, or I knew it didn't cliff out anywhere. So I was like, if I can just stay on this single track, it'll be okay. Right, you're not gonna fall off a cliff. Yeah, yeah.

Oh my God. I mean, some areas, if that happened, I would sit. Like if it's an area where it does cliff out or if I'm unfamiliar with what it does, I would probably have to like make a different choice. Yeah. Cause I'm not trying to go off a cliff anywhere. I hope not. Yeah. But then I made it to an aid station with about six miles left and the volunteers were very kind and sent one of their aid station workers to run next to me. And she narrated the trail to me then. And so she was like, there's big rocks on your left. The trail is turning slightly to the right. And it just made it so much easier because I could

like sort of then predict with my body where I was going next. When I was by myself, I was falling everywhere because if you can't see in front of your feet, I mean, I was landing on every rock and root and just tripping on everything. I don't even know where to begin with this. So first of all- Yeah, I don't know if you should.

Maybe we just leave that. You're like, all right, moving on. Next question. I right, moving on, next question. I mean, come on. First of all, you're wearing contacts for like days on end, right? Probably not a smart idea. You probably stopped doing that after that, right?

No, because I can't see without them. But you can get like, I'm blind as a bat. You just get glasses. Oh, I could do that. Yeah, right. I've heard L a bat. You just get glasses. Oh, I could do that. Yeah, right. I've heard LASIK makes it happen more often. It's corneal edema is what's happening, right? So essentially your body's so, you know,

under so much stress that you're having this immune response creating inflammation in your eyes that is crowding out your ability to see. Like it's basically pressure on the optic nerve. Yeah, and they, I mean, best diagnosis or reason they said is probably that. And it was dusty and smoky air and like rubbing my eyes, maybe just aggravated.

Allergic response. Yeah. But the frame of mind, when that happens to not freak out and say, I gotta stop, like I can't see, you know? And you're like, oh, it's good. We'll just keep going. Like, I think it's gonna be okay.

Oh, it was so great, I had a guide. Like that's not normal, right? You recognize that. Yes, and I don't recommend people just do this. Like maybe make the choice for you if it ever happens to your eyes. Like figure out how you feel about all the factors. But when it happened,

you didn't know what corneal edema was. Like now if it happens again, you're like, this has happened to me before, or I read something about it, but when it was occurring in real time, most people would have just freaked out. Yeah, I think in general, how I try to stay is just without emotions

in situations like that. So like, what are the facts of this situation? And then what can I actually control about it? How long before your eyesight returned? It was probably like five or six hours after the finish. That's a long time to be sitting there. Like at hour four, like is this gonna work out? I was very happy when it came back.

I went to the hospital. So, I mean, they checked me out. They weren't worried about the eyes. Oh, okay, that's helpful. So what do you do? Is there anything you do now to help prevent that like drops or anything like that? Yeah, I do eye drops pretty much through every ultra.

Now I'll have them in my pack or I'll use them at aid stations and then protective eyewear. So just trying to keep out as much dust as possible. But still with the contacts. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

I don't know, maybe I can try glasses. Have you never worn glasses? Not really. I've never really worn contacts. Yeah. Maybe we can switch. Just do a swap. I'll start wearing contacts.

I'll give you my glasses. Yeah, perfect. And we'll see how that works out. Maybe I'll get like really good at ultras and then your back will start hurting you. Thank you, sounds like a good trade. We can wrap this up in a few minutes, but one thing we're starting to lose the thread.

One thing I'm interested in is as somebody who's out there pushing the envelope in your sport, showing the rest of us what's possible and breaking all these boundaries and barriers, how does that affect your mental disposition and how you approach other facets of your life? Like how does it spill over and how you think about possibilities and potential in areas

that are outside of running? I think it's possible in every area outside of running. I'm not like seeking it in any other area right now, but I think what it's shown me is that like people are selling themselves short and setting their bars too low of what they could actually do if they went all in on something, you know, whatever they're psyched about to just see what happens if they invest a little more time and energy into it. And what about for yourself? For myself?

So you deflected a little bit there? What? Because I was asking you about you too. I never do that. Yeah, I know. Like, am I pursuing, am I? Well, right now you're all in on running, right? This is 110%, all your focus and all your time.

But there are other interests I'm sure that you have and you're married and you have a relationship and I'm sure there's other goals that maybe you're thinking about for your life after running or in conjunction with your running, talk a little bit about that and how you kind of see your life unfolding. I don't know how I see it unfolding.

Cause you're just, you're right where your feet are. Yeah. You wake up in the morning and decide. Yeah, I am having, like, I love this chapter that it's in right now. And so just enjoying that fully and knowing like chapters don't go on forever. So this ride, you know, will end at some point

and what comes next, I'm not sure, but I hope whatever, you know, page it flips to next, I can be just as excited about finding out what's possible. Right, but you don't have a sense of what that might look like. I don't, no. Do you think I should? Not necessarily.

I think you should be you. I think it's working out fine. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I know, I think that's an interesting that you asked me that because people ask me that, what's the next thing? Or where do you see yourself in five years? And I don't really approach my life that way.

I really don't think about those things. Then I feel guilty because like, here's my five-year plan. Like, should I have a five-year plan? I don't know. Do you, so you don't have a five-year plan? No. You have a weekly plan. I have a schedule of things that I'm doing,

but everything that ends up on the calendar is a reflection of me. I mean, I'm in a very privileged place where I have the opportunity to seek out things that interest me and pursue my curiosity, whether that's in sport or with the podcast or other creative outlets. And not everybody has that kind of life.

So I'm very grateful for that. But it's all about like, oh, this is cool. Let's see what this is about. Rather than like, I'm working towards this thing. And there's a destination and it's gonna look like that when I get there. Like I don't function that way. Yeah, that's cool.

Me neither. Yeah, I don't get that. But at the same time you do like, well, you say these are the races I'm gonna do this year and I'm working towards my best performance of them. So they're anchored, those are like the anchors and then your life kind of orients around that. But within that, there's so much opportunity to, you know,

be flexible and intuitive about your approach. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. One of the things that you see in ultra running is a problem with longevity in careers. Like you see athletes who come onto the scene, they crush it. They have a window of time, a couple of years where they're indestructible.

They're just winning everything in sight. And then something happens and they can't quite match those performances anymore. Seen it mostly in men time and time and time again. And I've often thought like, what is causing that or why is that? And I'm not sure anybody knows the answer to that, but obviously you're aware that this is the case.

So do you think at all about how you can protect the longevity of what you're trying to accomplish? Like, do you put any effort into that or thought? Yeah, I wanna be doing this sport as long as possible. And I mean, my schedule, my race schedule four years ago would have been an ultra every month because I love it so much. And I just wanted to do this thing I love.

And also I felt good doing it. So why not sign up for more? Um, but have wisened a little bit over the years to, uh, ease back on asking my body to go to that place so many times a year. ease back on asking my body to go to that place so many times a year. And also, I mean, I had an injury a few years ago that taught me to not neglect the small things like core work or stretching, foam rolling,

like things like that. I now implement because it's this tiny change I can do to maybe keep me in the sport longer. Yeah, I think I remember when you were on Rogan, he asked you about stretching and you're like, I probably should, but I don't really. So there's a change, right? Yeah. You're growing wiser.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But it's life's lumps that force you to, you know, make those adjustments. Yeah, for bit. Yeah. But it's life's lumps that force you to, you know, make those adjustments. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, soon the diet, we'll talk about that. Yeah, we can talk about it.

We'll see. No, I'm not getting involved. Like you're doing fine, you know. And are you still like, you don't know, no supplements or anything like that? No, nothing. Just candy bars? Yeah, mostly jelly beans.

Jelly beans? Yeah, the fruity candy is my favorite and it's getting vitamins in there somehow. And then when you're out training, like with the hydration pack, what is it? It's Tailwind, like what is your go-to? Tailwind, Honey Stinger. And then if it's a race,

I'll probably have some mashed potatoes in my pack. And then if it's a really long race, then it's like any other carbs, pizza, burgers, pancakes, pierogies, really good. McDonald's French fries. So good, yeah. The salt, right? Yeah, yeah.

Really any form of potato tastes great during an ultra. Yeah, they work well. Yeah. They're effective for sure. Well, I'm excited to see these races unfold with you. Thank you. It's pretty cool. Which shoe are you gonna wear?

Probably the S-Lab Ultra 3. Uh-huh. Have you tried it? I haven't tried that one yet. I've been running in the Ultra Glide, the new shoe that's about to come out. So good. Yeah, it's great, right?

Yeah. Enjoying that. I like the Sense very much too. Those are what I'm wearing right now, I think. The Sense Ride. Yeah, theying that. I like the scents very much too. Those are what I'm wearing right now, I think. The scents ride. Yeah, they're great. I gotta try those S-labs though. I haven't run in those.

I'm so happy you're on the team. Thank you. That's exciting. I'm very proud. I feel unworthy. So I wanna live up to it. You're very worthy. Yeah, I was nervous and awkward

and scared myself to talk to you because I have so much respect for everything that you do and you're such a joy and pleasure to speak to. And I wish you only the best. Well, thank you. Yeah, and I look forward to spending a little bit more time with you and getting to know you and being a cheerleader for your success.

Thank you. Let's run some trails today. I would love to do that. My guys here, I got a lot of work to do. I don't know if I can talk my way out of the office, but I'll see what I can do. Yeah, they won't know. Cool, so if people wanna connect with you,

what's the best way for them to find you on the internet? Basically, if you type in her name in Google, there's plenty. Yeah. On Instagram maybe. Yeah, on Instagram at Courtney Doolter. Awesome. It'd be great. All right, we'll come back after these races

and tell me about it. Yeah, I would love that. Cool, peace. And jelly beans. Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast,

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Namaste. Thank you.