The Rich Roll Podcast - Creativity, Self-Discovery, & 'Slip': Zoe Lister-Jones Is Reinventing Hollywood

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Zoe Lister-Jones: a writer, producer, director, and actor you likely already know from her many film and television appearances, recent guest Zach Braff’s film ‘A Good Person’ and Ari Aster’s ...recently released ‘Beau Is Afraid’ starring Joaquin Phoenix. Zoe wrote, directed, and produced the film ‘Band-Aid.’ She has also starred in films she co-wrote, including ‘Breaking Upwards,’ ‘Consumed, and ‘How It Ends,’ which she also co-directed. Today we dive into the creative process and philosophical inquiry behind Zoe’s newest creation, Slip—the binge-worthy comedy series with a bit of a surreal sci-fi twist that involves parallel realities and alternate identities. Not only did Zoe create the series. Not only does she star in it. Not only did she write all seven episodes, she also directed each and every one of those episodes, an absolutely stunning achievement. We dig into the messy terrain of love, marriage, fidelity, divorce, addiction, and self-discovery that Slip explores. We talk about what it’s like growing up in New York City in a family of artists, making deeply authentic work, the responsibility she shoulders to empower other women in the arts, and ultimately, how to quiet the hungry ghosts lurking within us all. Zoe is an artist in the truest sense of the word and I loved getting to know her through this conversation. It’s a privilege to share her story with you today. Show notes + MORE Watch on Youtube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Peak Design: PeakDesign.com/RICHROLL Athletic Greens: https://www.athleticgreens.com/richroll BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/richroll Express VPN: http://www.expressvpn.com/RICHROLL SriMu: http://srimu.com/rrp Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich

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Starting point is 00:00:00 The Rich Roll Podcast. How to grow as an artist is to do things that you don't know how to do. Right. Today I'm speaking with the very talented Zoe Lister-Jones. Zoe Lister-Jones, everybody! Actress and filmmaker who stars in the sitcom Life in Pieces. Band-Aid, the movie she stars in, and me. You're in a new film
Starting point is 00:00:30 called Bo is Afraid. She's in theaters nationwide. Writer, a producer, a director, and an actor. It's nice to wear so many different hats, you know, because they're all different muscles to flex. Today, we dive into the creative process behind Zoe's newest creation, Slip, the binge-worthy comedy series that involves parallel realities and alternate identities.
Starting point is 00:00:53 We talk about making deeply authentic work, the responsibility she shoulders to empower other women in the arts. Zoe's a friend. She is a star very much on the rise and an artist in the absolute truest sense of the word. Before we dive in, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible. We're brought to you today by recovery.com. I've been in recovery for a long time. It's not hyperbolic to say that I owe everything good in my life to sobriety. And it all began with treatment and experience that I had that quite literally saved my life. And in the many years since, I've in turn helped many suffering addicts and their loved ones find treatment. And with that, I know all too well just how confusing
Starting point is 00:01:43 and how overwhelming and how challenging it can be to find the right place and the right level of care, especially because, unfortunately, not all treatment resources adhere to ethical practices. by the people at recovery.com who created an online support portal designed to guide, to support, and empower you to find the ideal level of care tailored to your personal needs. They've partnered with the best global behavioral health providers to cover the full spectrum of behavioral health disorders, including substance use disorders, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, gambling addictions, and more. Navigating their site is simple. Search by insurance coverage, location, treatment type, you name it. Plus, you can read reviews from former patients to help you decide. Whether you're a busy exec, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself, a parent of a struggling teen, or battling addiction yourself. I feel you. I empathize with you. I really do. And they have treatment options for you. Life in recovery is wonderful,
Starting point is 00:02:53 and recovery.com is your partner in starting that journey. When you or a loved one need help, go to recovery.com and take the first step towards recovery. To find the best treatment option for you or a loved one, again, go to recovery.com. Okay, let's do the thing. Well, it's so nice to see you. Thank you for doing this. Thanks for having me back.
Starting point is 00:03:27 I was telling you before we started that it's been so cool just to kind of watch your career blossom over the years. Like you're just like blowing up and you're in all this cool stuff. And it's just, you know, it's so fun for me as somebody who knows you to kind of see you popping up all over the place. So congratulations on all of that.
Starting point is 00:03:46 Thanks, Rich. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a particularly exciting year for sure. But I feel like this year is really a tipping point for you. Thanks. There's a lot of high prestige stuff that we're gonna get into
Starting point is 00:04:01 that's about to kind of pop in a big way, I think, right? I hope so. Yeah. And it feels like you've done so many things, but every new thing that you do is kind of a next evolution of like stepping into, you could just be doing the same thing, but you're stretching yourself with each thing. Like you go from co-writing and co-directing or starring
Starting point is 00:04:26 and then writing something that only you did and then writing and directing something that only you did. And now we have slip that's just about to come out that you wrote, directed, starred in, produced. And you're, I don't know, like in every frame of this whole thing, right? It's wild. Yeah. I mean, you know, like you're, I don't know, like in every frame of this whole thing, right? It's wild. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:04:46 I mean, you know, like you're the same, but I feel like I was a very fearful kid growing up in Brooklyn. And strangely, I think I push myself towards things that scare me, even though it's like anathema to who I am at my core. I think, especially in terms of the work I do, yeah, I try to lean into the unknown
Starting point is 00:05:17 and this is definitely the biggest foray so far because I've never worked in, I've never created my own television series. So I've written and directed and starred in my own films, which is like also scary as hell, but to do it in this long a format where I am in sort of every frame was daunting, but thrilling. Did you write every episode of Slip?
Starting point is 00:05:43 Yeah. That's nuts. Yeah, it was nuts. And you write every episode of Slip? Yeah. That's nuts. Yeah, it was nuts. And you directed every episode. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, even the most talented showrunners, they'll kick it off and then they'll oversee a writer's room.
Starting point is 00:05:55 Just for people that are listening or watching who don't really kind of understand how it works, they'll put their imprimatur on a show by creating the tone and maybe writing the first couple episodes and popping in and writing one here or there, but it's very much a collaborative effort. And this feels to be signature in a really unique way.
Starting point is 00:06:16 And just the kind of endurance of like having your fingers into every aspect of it while also being on camera, like that's a high wire app. Yeah. Yeah. I wrote the whole thing, the whole season in quarantine. And it was really a lifeline,
Starting point is 00:06:34 but it is unconventional for one person to write a whole season of television. Also unconventional for one person to direct it because generally you have a number of directors throughout the season. But I had come off of making a studio movie and there were so many cooks in the kitchen. And I think it was really intentional
Starting point is 00:06:55 that I create something that just felt wholly mine. And it's such a personal story that, yeah, I think my writing all seven was a protective measure in some ways so that I could go out and say, this is the thing and if you like it, then let's make it. But there's not really a ton of wiggle room in terms of what it is. I didn't want there to be compromise
Starting point is 00:07:23 and astoundingly Roku, I think probably it's a function of them being a new streaming service. Yeah. They gave me a green light to series without giving me one script note, which is unheard of. Wow. So they really just allowed for me to make
Starting point is 00:07:41 exactly the show that I envisioned, which was so healing as an artist. How does it work? Like usually in the kind of traditional, conventional Hollywood sense, when you wanna create a television show, you kind of create the book or what is it called? Like the kind of-
Starting point is 00:08:03 The Bible. The Bible, right? And you write a pilot and you go through these various stages where you have to get green lights along the way and all these cooks are in the kitchen approving things, giving notes, et cetera. And you're lucky enough to get just a pilot green lit, but that's no guarantee of anything.
Starting point is 00:08:23 But now we're in a whole new world in which the streaming services are green lighting entire series without that kind of pilot litmus test to kind of validate a project. Yeah, it's an interesting time. In some ways, I mean, television is obviously a very bold medium.
Starting point is 00:08:45 It's like really exciting and movies are in a much more tenuous space, but there's still a lot of fear-based decision-making. So the fact that I was given the amount of trust I was as an artist felt pretty singular as an experience. It was sort of a unicorn. And so, and to me, like any fear-based decision-making in a creative venture is just death. Yeah, but when money's on the line
Starting point is 00:09:19 and that intersection of art and commerce is sort of like knocking loudly at everyone's door. It's challenging. And I think, yeah, there was something about this project. I was able to make it inexpensively, which I think also afforded me more creative freedom. Liberation. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:09:41 And I suppose because I had, you know, some films under my belt that there was some more trust that was- Yeah, sure, of course. You have a track record. But it's interesting, you know, Roka is an interesting kind of home for this because on the one hand,
Starting point is 00:10:02 all the streamers have expanded the aperture of what's possible and have created kind of a tapestry for a lot more creativity and certainly a lot more, you know, kind of content. But we're also in a bit of a contraction with this, like the sort of halcyon days of like throwing money around and leaving creators to do whatever they want, that's sort of played out at the bigger streamers,
Starting point is 00:10:26 Netflix, et cetera. And they're reeling everything back and laying people off. But here comes Roku, like a little sprout, I'm like Roku, like what is Roku? Isn't that like a box that you have that, like I don't even know what Roku is. Like wait, they're making shows now? Like it's confusing from a consumer point of view. Like, I don't know, like all these new shows come up,
Starting point is 00:10:48 I can't even keep track of where they are and how to find them. It becomes, you know, there's sort of this diaspora of all these different kind of places to find stuff. But, you know, this is like, we're in this nascent stage of trying to, you know, figure out how to create a media landscape that makes sense. Like the early days of AMC,
Starting point is 00:11:11 when we were all like, what is AMC? And it was like- And they did Mad Men, right? And they did Mad Men and Breaking Bad. And then suddenly, so it's exciting to get in early in a streamer's nascent stage, because I think there is more room
Starting point is 00:11:28 to do really bold filmmaking. And this is surely the boldest thing I've ever made and is really sex forward and unapologetically sort of centered around female sexual pleasure. And so, yeah, I'm like big ups to Roku for taking the risk. It's definitely pushing the envelope and it's kind of NSFW in certain respects,
Starting point is 00:12:01 but very bold and honest in that regard. And yet at the same time, highly relatable. So maybe explain like, you know, before we go any further, like let's talk about what it actually is. So people understand what we're talking about. Sure, Slip follows a woman named May Cannon played by yours truly. And she, when we meet her, she's restless in her marriage
Starting point is 00:12:25 and ends up cheating on her husband one night and wakes up the next morning to discover that she's now married to the dude she cheated on her husband with. And then over the course of the season, learns that through orgasm, she's being transported into a multiverse. And so each episode, she's sort of being launched sexually
Starting point is 00:12:51 into all of her parallel lives and relationships. Right, so it has this weird kind of everything everywhere, all at once multiverse aspect to it that's kind of sci-fi-esque or kind of fantasy oriented. And yet at the same time, it feels very wedded to the work that you've always been doing all the way back to like Breaking Upwards and like, what was that?
Starting point is 00:13:16 Like 2008, nine or something like that. Like your first movie with Daryl that is really grappling with what it means to be in a relationship and find happiness and freedom within the construct of monogamy. And this being, slip being written like during the pandemic where we're all kind of stuck at home with our partners or whatever and we're questioning our lives.
Starting point is 00:13:43 There's something very universal that transcends just, you know, relationships that speaks to, you know, this idea of questioning our lives and could it be better and kind of a sliding doors sort of way. Like, well, you know, we all have that experience where we meet somebody and there's a spark and, you know, regardless of your station in life, you're immediately like sort of future tripping
Starting point is 00:14:07 and like playing house in, you know, in a kind of fantasy, you know, idealized way of what it would be like if I was with that person. And you're just playing that out all the way to the end to kind of experience like, oh, well, if I actually did that, what would that be like?
Starting point is 00:14:24 And how does that then make me sort of consider in a revisionist history way, how I've been feeling about my life as it is in reality? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've always been a avid future tripper. And I think it was exciting for me to sort of narrativize like what those fantasies would look like, as you said,
Starting point is 00:14:55 if they were actually played out because oftentimes the fantasy will never be. Right. You know. You quickly find out like, this is nothing like. The reality will always disappoint you. But I do out like, this is nothing like- The reality will always disappoint you. But I do think like as universal
Starting point is 00:15:11 as those sort of existential questions are around, like, could I be happier? And what do I do with that feeling of wanting more and the what ifs and the paths not chosen? All of those questions just became so loud in quarantine. As you said, like regardless of your station, if you were stuck in a relationship or if you were feeling so isolated and alone.
Starting point is 00:15:35 And so I think this really was my way of, I guess, trying to answer those questions for myself as I was also, ending a very substantial relationship and marriage. So it was mirroring some of my personal life. And I think so much of my work, as you said, has been about the nuances and complexities of relationship dynamics.
Starting point is 00:16:04 And so this was also very much about that, but I wanted to do it through a more fantastical lens and give myself an opportunity and also the audience an opportunity to go on a sort of wild adventure. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Relationships through the matrix. Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:16:22 On some level, you know, and it's really fun, but it's also like, yeah, it's like you're, there's a very kind of strong female empowerment component of being vulnerable, but not shying away from really confronting sexuality head on. Like you're not hiding from any of that. Like it's front and center throughout the whole thing, which is like a really bold choice, right?
Starting point is 00:16:47 And to say that like Roku was like, cool, go for it. Like that speaks to, you know, some level of like confidence in you as a, you know, creative force. Yeah, yeah, I'm so grateful to have been given that much room to explore female sexuality. I think, you know, I was raised by an amazing woman, Ardell Lister, an artist in her own right,
Starting point is 00:17:14 who really taught me to look at media through like a critical lens, especially when it came to the way that women were represented. And so this was an exciting opportunity for me to sort of subvert the lens that we have come to just know in the way that so many, I guess, yeah, that female sexuality in particular has been portrayed in media,
Starting point is 00:17:46 which is oftentimes voyeuristic in nature, even though we're not even aware of it, but that sort of male gaze that- Yeah, salacious through a male point of view. Yeah, and the objectification of those women in those scenes, I think this was such an exciting opportunity to make something that was erotic. Like I really wanted to make something
Starting point is 00:18:10 that was gonna turn people on, but that was also messy and unapologetic and that created sex scenes that were the centerpiece of every episode, but that were very much from a woman's perspective and very much like um yeah i guess pushing the boundaries of how much sex we are allowed to see it it's a it's such such a strange thing i think especially in media like the dichotomy between like puritanism and and salaciousness and we were always riding
Starting point is 00:18:42 that line and i think um female pleasure has always been sort of at the crux of that, right? Cause we don't really want to get into it. We kind of just want them to be, you know, objects of lust and desire rather than agents of it. Yeah. But the device that you use, which is simultaneously kind of hilarious and provocative is this notion that like orgasm is this wormhole through which you travel through time
Starting point is 00:19:13 and enter into parallel universes where you have sex with somebody and then suddenly this is your life, like that has always been your life with this person. And then you have to live with that. And that makes you kind of reflect on like, is this better? Like this fantasy that I had and now I'm in it,
Starting point is 00:19:31 is this better than what I had before? Yeah, that like grass is always greener paradigm where you then get to the other grass and you're like, ah, this one sucks too. Now what? But like, to be fair, I wasn't clear. Is it your boyfriend or your husband? Husband. Your husband, right?
Starting point is 00:19:49 Like, I mean, he's dork-filled like all the way, right? Like you're clearly unhappy with this guy and unsatisfied, but there's something stable about it. And you know. Yeah, I mean, yeah. In the show, yes, the relationship has come to a standstill for sure. I mean, there's only so much you can do in half an hour. So I didn't want it to be so black and white
Starting point is 00:20:13 that you're like, get out of there. Because I think there is like this sort of comfort, the creature comforts of a long-term relationship or any relationship really, you know, have a lot of value. And that idea of home is so central to like finding stability in one's life. And I think because my character comes from a foster upbringing.
Starting point is 00:20:48 Home in general is like a pretty tenuous thing for her. And so over the course of the season, I think she's, yeah, sort of pondering the decisions she's made and wondering if she should go back, maybe less about the person that she left and more about that sense of stability and home and what that means and how we can find that internally rather than other people.
Starting point is 00:21:14 But this notion of always searching for more or trying to find a way to fill that like hole that can only be filled through some sort of spiritual solution that transcends the material is played out in many ways, you know, throughout the show. And I'm only at the inception of the show, but I love the fact that like, you know,
Starting point is 00:21:37 she's a curator at this museum and there's this exhibit and it's called The Hungry Ghost. Like, obviously, you know, it's very intentional. Like, you know, I've read Gabor Mate's book, you know, the realm of the hungry ghosts and like that idea of like, we're just, you know, we're, we're craven in certain ways. And we're always looking for more and we're trying to like make ourselves feel whole
Starting point is 00:21:58 through what we can grab onto in the material world. And no matter what that thing is that we grab onto, it doesn't quite get us there. And we're diluted into the sense that like, it just, it lives just a little bit outside of ourselves and it's gonna be the next thing and the next thing. And that gets played out through sexuality in the narrative, you know, of slip.
Starting point is 00:22:22 But you know, how does that like, like, do you come to some resolution with that? And like, how is this playing out, you know, for yourself? Because obviously these are questions that you're grappling with in your own life. Yeah, I think the hungry ghost is a fascinating archetype because I've never struggled with substance abuse, but I think we all are addicts.
Starting point is 00:22:50 Like you're saying that there's always this sort of insatiable quest for something to fill that restlessness or vacuous place in our souls. When you finally win that Academy Award or when you get that external validation that you've been working towards your whole life, then you will feel complete. And you will never feel complete.
Starting point is 00:23:17 And I think that's, it's such a universal trope and trait that we're all constantly facing. And so I did kind of wanna look at addiction through that lens where, whether it's love or sex addiction or something even sort of more ephemeral than that, just that hunger that lives in all of us
Starting point is 00:23:42 and how we each choose to try to satiate it, you know, however misguided the attempts are. And I mean, I so admire all of your spiritual practices. I don't have enough of a steady spiritual practice, but I was raised in a very spiritual home. And I guess at my core, like it is something that I returned to when I'm really in need, but I totally struggle with it.
Starting point is 00:24:16 I think that, I don't identify as a love addict, but I'm very interested in love addiction because I think we all are sort of, you know, craving that connection in a way that will never be fulfilled, you know, in the way that love has been designed. The idea, this idea of love. The narrative of love has been designed,
Starting point is 00:24:47 the idea, this idea of love. The narrative of love has been designed to totally deceive us. And so I think, especially not to make it so gendered, but especially I think for women, what we're seeking in romantic relationships will always be just slightly off the mark. And I think that has been fed to us culturally, but I think this show does really delve into things
Starting point is 00:25:15 that I definitely struggle with personally around intimacy and sex and that sort of addiction to wanting more. Sure. Well, let's go back there. I mean, you mentioned your mom. Your mom is a central figure in your life. If you follow Zoe on Instagram,
Starting point is 00:25:36 you know, the affection that you have for your mom is really touching. You know, she's obviously had like a big impact on your life. Your dad was an artist too. You grew up in Brooklyn, two crazy artists. We're both kind of, your dad was a photographer, like they're in media, they're challenging narratives, I'm sure, and you're growing up in an environment
Starting point is 00:26:03 that is, I would suppose on some level slightly, if not, you know, altogether transgressive. Yes. And you're, you know, shaving your head and, you know, being like, were you a goth kid? Like what's going on? I shaved my head when I was 11. I wasn't goth. 11, wow.
Starting point is 00:26:22 Yeah. I was really into ska. Who were the bands? I loved the specials, the selector, madness. But yeah, I guess- Fishbone. No, I didn't- That was West Coast.
Starting point is 00:26:41 Yeah, I didn't get into like West Coast. I was sort of a purist in terms of that British scene. But I was definitely raised in a transgressive household, almost so transgressive that like the only way for me to rebel was to be conservative. Yeah, you're gonna be an investment banker. Yeah. My mom took me to get my head shaved.
Starting point is 00:27:04 It wasn't me like- Oh, wow. That's a trip. It was my idea. Oh my God. But yeah, I think it was at a time for me when I was getting a lot of male attention from older men. And I think unconsciously, this is only in retrospect, that I think I shaved it in order to, as an attempt at some sort of invisibility,
Starting point is 00:27:32 it did the opposite. It got me so much attention and bullying. And, you know, it was really a tough couple of years when I was playing with sort of gender expression and androgyny in that way. But yeah, my parents are both really cool, prolific artists. My mom's a video artist and they both made very personal work. So I think from a young age, I had these really amazing examples
Starting point is 00:28:04 of what it looks like to fuse those two worlds. I really don't know any other way. I've never made anything that is not pretty deeply personal at its core. But yeah, and they've just been so supportive of me throughout my life and pushed me to go further. And they exposed me to so much transgressive shit as a young person, which, you know, at that age, you're like, I don't know if I'm ready for this,
Starting point is 00:28:40 but it had such an impact on me as an artist. So we think of Brooklyn now as this, you know, gentrified, you know, kind of a hipster village, but you know, when you were growing up, that predated kind of that wave, right? So the experience of being a kid in Brooklyn and having these artists as parents, yeah, there's no way that, you know,
Starting point is 00:29:05 you don't emerge from that with a very unique kind of worldview. Yeah, yeah, I mean, Brooklyn in the 80s, the neighborhood that I was raised in was, it was definitely tough, we were robbed a lot. It was like, I think my nervous system is broken. There's no repairing it. And also, you know,
Starting point is 00:29:31 but then I was a part of the sort of New York art world because of my parents and I was an only child. So I was being dragged to openings and events and performance art pieces. And so- Is this like abandoned building, you know, kind of weird, you know, like edgy. Totally, yeah.
Starting point is 00:29:49 I remember like my mom taking me, this was as a, maybe like 12 to this screening of this Japanese cult film that was like really fucked up. Really fucked up. And, but she's such a culture vulture, you know, and she's so curious. And I was, you know, she didn't have a babysitter. So I was exposed, yeah, to just wild shit that,
Starting point is 00:30:20 and her work too was really wild and transgressive. And so it's cool to see, yeah, the impact of both my parents' work on my own. It's interesting, like we're, you know, as a parent, the whole kind of conventional notion around protecting your kids from anything, you know, that might traumatize them, like not taking them to, you know,
Starting point is 00:30:44 a certain kind of movie too soon. But all the interesting people that I know that are doing interesting things in the world were the people who were going to those movies way too early. Yeah. So I have a whole different view on that. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:30:58 I think I saw Do the Right Thing in the theater when it came out. I think I was like five or something. Like, a lot, it was a lot. But what's wild about you is you kind of come out of that like nitty gritty art world, and you've done a lot of stuff in that independent DIY context,
Starting point is 00:31:21 but you're very much, you've segued and moved into, you know, this sort of very, you know, you've been embraced by, you know, the traditional Hollywood system and you've kind of stepped into being, you know, a glamorous exemplar of that, right? Like you really lean into the glamor. Like it's, you do, I mean,
Starting point is 00:31:43 like how many photo shoots a week do you do? It's insane, right? Well, right now with press, there's a lot. It's like, yeah, my Instagram is a little bit insufferable, but I do love, listen, yeah, I'm a real glutton for fashion. But the choices that you make as a creative are like feel very true to the ethos of how you were brought up nonetheless.
Starting point is 00:32:09 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I grew up broke. My parents were broke and they could never make a living from their art. And I think I really like bore witness to the heartache of that life. And it made me not wanna be an artist. I was like pretty adamantly like a capitalist.
Starting point is 00:32:34 Like my parents were both like- It's not surprising. You know, like I was like, I remember someone asking me in high school, like, what do you, what's like your main, what do you want from life? And I was like money. And they were like, you disgust me. But I was like, I was like, I want stability.
Starting point is 00:32:53 Like, I don't want the life, that life that I saw because it wasn't just being broke. It was, it was- Feeling unsafe and- Well that, but also like the emotional component of seeing two incredible artists sort of have to abandon those dreams. That's a really painful thing for a kid to witness,
Starting point is 00:33:24 you know, really porous and sensitive kid to witness that both of them had to get, my dad had a lot of odd jobs. He was telemarketer, he worked at different magazines. He worked at a video game company. It was just trying to scrape to get by. My mom started teaching video art at Rutgers. And I think neither of them ever were able
Starting point is 00:33:47 to really put the focus on their art again. And the, you know, it's that sort of age old question of like, if no one sees your art, what impact does that have on you as an artist? And both of them, you know, my mom is in museum collections and stuff, but could never make a living. And I think it's paralyzing.
Starting point is 00:34:16 And I saw how paralyzing it was. I saw how painful it was. And when I got a scholarship to go to Tisch for acting, I was like, no, like to put all my eggs in that basket. And my mom was the one to be like, no, you should, you should go. And I did. Had you been acting in high school building up to that?
Starting point is 00:34:39 Like how did that even happen to begin with? I had acted in a couple high school productions. I was really shy, but by the end of like, How did that even happen to begin with? I had acted in a couple high school productions. I was really shy, but by the end of, like by my senior year, I was acting more in high school. And then I auditioned and got in and got this scholarship. And so I think also because, you know, there was a financial component, my mom was like, you're going.
Starting point is 00:35:09 So the financial component was almost equally as important as the idea of like, you know, becoming an actress was secondary to that. Yeah, I think my mom also saw that I had love for that and didn't want me at such a young age to be so cynical. I think my mom also saw that I had love for that and didn't want me at such a young age to be so cynical. And I really am grateful for her cause she's a deeply cynical person, but she was trying to save me from that.
Starting point is 00:35:42 And then like miraculously in one of the toughest industries, I was able to make a living from my art. And so that's all a long way of saying, I started to work in TV before TV was cool. You know, like I was doing sitcoms and it was not cool. It was not like something that I was necessarily super proud of in terms of, you know, my street cred,
Starting point is 00:36:12 but to be able to make a living, like I was just like, this is the coolest thing in the world. Like this is beyond my wildest dreams. And I'm still just so grateful to have been given those opportunities and to be able to own a home. And I'm still just so grateful to have been given those opportunities and to be able to own a home. My parents never owned a home.
Starting point is 00:36:31 My dad still has never owned a home. So I think I've always had a really pragmatic approach to the industry. Yeah, you seem to kind of move back and forth between these worlds. I mean, like we mentioned, you did Breaking Upwards. Did that go to Sundance? I mean, that really put you on the map. That was the first thing that you and Daryl did together.
Starting point is 00:37:01 Yeah, that premiered at South by Southwest. And that was our first, we made, my ex-husband and I, Darrell made it for $15,000. So it was a real labor of love and teensy weensy. And then it opened all these doors for both of us as a team. So we were really then billed as a- But not like a financial windfall. No, God no.
Starting point is 00:37:25 But in terms of that, like street cred, right? Like indie filmmaker, cool, challenging monogamy. This is a recurrent theme through all the stuff that you do all the way through Slip. But then, yeah, like doing all this TV stuff. Like you've done, like it's a rite of passage for a young New York actor to do Law & Order, but you did like Law & Order to the 10th degree.
Starting point is 00:37:48 Like you did every iteration of Law and Order. Like I'm obsessed with Law and Order. Really? I've seen like every episode. Wait, I didn't know that about you. It's like a narcoleptic for me. Like, I don't know why, but like for some reason, like when I can't sleep, like an episode of Law and Order. It's like dun dun. Yeah, it just like, you sleep, like an episode of Law & Order.
Starting point is 00:38:05 It's like dun dun. Yeah, it just like, you know, it's despite the fact that it's about crime and people doing awful things, it like lulls me into some kind of calm. I don't know what that says about me. So I've seen you in many different, you know, versions of Law & Order, like Criminal Intent, SUV. It's like, it's always funny when you go back
Starting point is 00:38:24 and you watch the really old ones because there's so many amazing actors doing incredible things that you see in these small parts in Law & Order. This is kind of like a training ground. I don't know if it's still the case. Like they've kind of rebooted it more recently. But I'm always amused when you see an actor
Starting point is 00:38:42 show up in Law & Order and then like they show up again playing a totally different character. Like they don't care about that. They don't care. I think I did four in the span of like a year and a half, two years. Playing different people. Entirely different people.
Starting point is 00:38:57 And they just ignore the fact that you were, showed up last year as somebody else. Well, each one was a different franchise. I was on Mothership, SVU, Criminal Intent, and then a short-lived trial by jury. But yeah, no, that's a total rite of passage. And that was, it is really like sort of bootcamp because you do have to embody
Starting point is 00:39:21 these wildly different characters. And I remember auditioning for Law & Order and in the waiting room, there was like back in the days of VHS, embody these wildly different characters. And I remember auditioning for Law and Order and in the waiting room, there was like, back in the days of VHS tapes, but like there was like a shelf of VHS tapes of every audition and it was like Brad Pitt, like, you know, it was everyone, it was everyone.
Starting point is 00:39:35 Like, and so you were seated in this waiting room being like, yes, one day. Yeah, exactly. Like you kind of have to do it if you're a young actor in New York, right? Yeah, and I was doing a lot of theater at that time too, which was really fun and also an incredible training ground as an actor.
Starting point is 00:39:54 But I think that like indie film and guerrilla filmmaking for me was, it did allow, like I was able to afford to do those things because I was on television. I think because I was bridging those two worlds, you know, that allowed for some street cred while I was on network sitcoms. And then also the sitcoms allowed for me to go,
Starting point is 00:40:17 you know, make some really tiny things that cost nothing and made nothing. Right, but a lot of people don't do that. I mean, you end up in new girl, like I was telling you before the podcast, like my daughter Mathis is obsessed with new girl. Like that's all she, you know, Mathis, like that's all she cares about.
Starting point is 00:40:37 Like there's a certain generation, like for whom like that's the most important thing and the way that the office like, you know, lives in a certain headspace for a lot of people. And in that sitcom world, like you could make an incredible living. You're paying your bills
Starting point is 00:40:54 and you're able to create that financial stability that obviously was important to you. But it's very few people who then kind of branch out in the off season or in the, you know, kind of the respite in between seasons to go do their own thing. And, you know, the fact that like, you sort of have seized those opportunities
Starting point is 00:41:17 with Daryl and now without Daryl to like, really make sure that you're making the most of that to build your career, to me, reads like somebody who's incredibly ambitious and perhaps like creatively restless. Like you do those shows, you get paid really well, it's great, but are you really igniting your creative spark unless you're writing your own stuff
Starting point is 00:41:41 and like exploring your own kind of interior emotional landscape as an artist in these other new and unique ways and trying to kind of create a career path through that over time. Yeah, people get so easily pigeonholed in my industry and put into boxes. And so I think there was a ferocity to me trying to not be able to be put into one category too.
Starting point is 00:42:13 But yeah, I think I don't know any other way to live. Like I don't know what to do with, it's not just a restlessness of spirit, but it's like a hunger to answer questions for myself that are sort of at the core of the human journey. For me, like anything that's coming up, I'm a deeply sensitive and feeling person. So I'm always wrestling with sort of deep and existential queries that I kind of only know
Starting point is 00:42:49 how to answer through my writing. Yeah, you made this independent movie consumed about GMOs and farming and soil. And that's around the time that we met for the first time. But then during the pandemic, you make this, how it ends movie, like what can we do when we're all locked down, right? And then you write slip during the pandemic as well,
Starting point is 00:43:14 like using the confusion and the isolation and kind of all the weird emotions that we were all having and channeling that into, you know, something that you could express. Yeah, yeah. How it ends was also both Darrell and I trying to figure out how to face like, God, something unprecedented that we were all,
Starting point is 00:43:40 we were all just, you know, sitting around having to face ourselves, you know, I guess that's the most unprecedented part. And so that was the story of my character walking across Los Angeles on the last day on earth with her younger self and having a conversation with her younger self because I was trying to do so much inner child work
Starting point is 00:44:01 at the time. And I did not know how to talk to my younger self. I still don't really know, but the movie was me trying to figure it out by actually writing a script between the two of us. Well, what does that look like? Like we were joking again, before the podcast, I texted Whitney Cummings.
Starting point is 00:44:19 You were in her show, Whitney. You know, Whitney, you know, better than I do. But I was like, Whitney, Zoe's coming in, what should we talk about? And it's like all about trauma and her child, like she wants to go right to the psychology of everything. Classic Whitney. I know.
Starting point is 00:44:37 So that inner child work or even like kind of not just childhood trauma, but like the adult trauma of like experiencing COVID and exploring that through art. Yeah, I mean, we've all got just children wailing inside of us. Sure, oh my God. And I guess that, you know, I think those children are probably in a weird way
Starting point is 00:45:03 holding the reins of our hungry ghosts. But I think we all can be sort of hijacked by very young people. And I've only in the last few years, I think really COVID sparked a much stronger or acute interest in who that person is and how to talk to her and how to settle her down. And I was going through some major life changes
Starting point is 00:45:38 and I still am. And I think at any threshold in a person's life, those voices get all the louder. And yeah, that process of like reparenting is, I still, I don't totally understand it, but I'm trying to. Do you, like, what is your modality for that? Do you have a therapist? I'm in a lot of therapy.
Starting point is 00:46:05 I have an individual therapist. I'm in a lot of therapy. I have an individual therapist. I'm also in group therapy, which is one of my favorite new modalities. I think it's really radical and cool work. And in that group, are they friends or strangers? No, strangers, and we can't speak outside of group. And it's an amazing exercise in radical honesty. It's basically a place,
Starting point is 00:46:31 it's like a safe space in which one can say anything and say it directly to another person. So it's like an individual therapy, which I also love, but it's a different dynamic. This is really testing the bounds of your interpersonal dynamics as a mirror to reflect what's happening outside of group therapy for you. And yeah, so that's been really fascinating.
Starting point is 00:47:01 That's a level, like an enhanced level of trust that you have to muster also, because with the therapist, they're sort of bound by law, but then you have these other people, if they're strangers, you don't even know these people and you're a public person. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting element to it that people are pretty cool about,
Starting point is 00:47:30 but, you know, they have access to information about me that I don't have about them. But that really rarely comes up. I mean, I think for me, like what it's also meant to do is sort of replay family dynamics. So within those family dynamics, like the group leader is the matriarch or patriarch. And then you've got where you fit in in a given family.
Starting point is 00:47:57 And I spent like the first four sessions just weeping. And I was so confused by it. I called the group therapist after and was like, what is happening? But there's also such like a raw humanity that is experienced because no, it's not like you're taking turns talking. You have to find your way in
Starting point is 00:48:23 to a conversation with 11 people. So if you wanna like talk about something or relate to somebody or say, I have something that is really eating away at me and I need your help. Like finding, just finding your voice is like such a huge hurdle. And for me as an only child,
Starting point is 00:48:40 like I've never had to really do that. I mean, I have to do it in my professional life, but yeah, so it's just been so interesting and then people will tell their stories and there's so much universality to them that, yeah. So that's been cool. And personal therapy. There was a time when I was in couples therapy,
Starting point is 00:49:09 individual therapy and group therapy every week. So like, I was so out of my mind. Right. It was helpful, but now I'm only in two of the three. It's a lot, man. It's a lot. I'm a firm two of the three every week. It's a lot, man. It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm a firm believer in therapy though. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:49:28 But this question around monogamy seems to be this thing that has kind of lived in your conscious and unconscious mind for a very long time from the inception of your beautiful relationship with Daryl that like went on for a very long time from the inception of your beautiful relationship with Daryl that like, you know, went on for a long time and kind of, you know, reached its conclusion. And I love Daryl, you know that. And I know you guys are still close and all of that.
Starting point is 00:49:58 But the fact that this was, you know, part and parcel of your first movie that you guys did together and still gets played out and slip. Like what is going on with like how, there's something like very cool about the female empowerment piece to that. But I feel like you're still trying to make sense of like what that means and how you live as a modern woman,
Starting point is 00:50:21 a modern empowered woman within the kind of construct of, you know, conventional lifestyle and expectations. Yeah, I mean, Breaking Upwards, as you said, was about non-monogamy. It was based on a real open relationship that Daryl and I were in. And Daryl and I, over the course of our 17 year relationship, we're in and out of non-monogamy.
Starting point is 00:50:49 And I think in some ways slip was me trying to contend with what that was and what that meant and how to take it into this new stage of my life. Like we became polyamorous in the later stage of our relationship. And that, you know, opens up a whole new- Does that ever work? You know, Rich-
Starting point is 00:51:13 Do you know anyone who's explored that? Like we have, you know, this fantasy that, you know, we can live these polyamorous lives, but I don't know anyone who's been able to like do that and achieve a level of happiness beyond what they were experiencing prior or to do it in any successful way. And I'm friends with Neil Strauss. He wrote a whole book about it called the truth. Like, you know, read that book and you'll, you know, you'll get a heavy dose of, you know, what the reality of that looks like.
Starting point is 00:51:40 Yeah. I mean, my mom's best friends are polyamorous and they have been for decades and they sort of served as me and Daryl's mentors. They have made it work. But, you know, like whenever I would go meet with either one of them to be like, oh, what do I do? Like, this is crazy. They would tell me stories that were so harrowing. I mean, like the fantasy of like sexual liberation, has to contend with all of our human frailty and jealousy and pettiness. I just don't know that I would, I mean, I'm not cut out for that. Yeah, and there's a level of,
Starting point is 00:52:26 at least in my experience, because I think some people do make it work. I definitely think non-monogamy can work. I think that's a very different thing than polyamory. And I think in some ways I question how much social conditioning plays into the difficulties that we assign to non-monogamy how much social conditioning plays into the difficulties that we assign to non-monogamy because monogamy is also really fucking hard.
Starting point is 00:52:51 We just don't see it. It doesn't have the same stigma, but- It doesn't have the level of complexity though. It might have a high degree of difficulty. Right, that's true. But the difficulty doesn't live on that exponential scale of like having to manage all different kinds of people. And it just seems very chaotic.
Starting point is 00:53:19 It is, it was chaotic. I guess like any extreme sport, there's really, you're chasing the adrenaline. It was chaotic. I guess like any extreme sport, there's really, you're chasing the adrenaline, and then your body's broken and you have to recover. Is the adrenaline about like the new, cause there's always like the allure of the new, that's the uncharted terrain where the answer lives in this exciting, uncharted,
Starting point is 00:53:48 like adventure with this new person and the promise that that holds. I think it's the allure of the new. I think there is something exciting and sexy about the transgressive nature of what you're doing, radical honesty, if you can swing that. But I think the complexity really, for me at least,
Starting point is 00:54:13 I think for a lot of people, it's like the new is hot and also the illicit is hot. And the whole point of non-monogamy when done well is that it is all about communication and honesty. But there's going to be omissions, there's going to, you're still gonna be chasing something illicit on some level. And that's, I think where people get stuck.
Starting point is 00:54:41 Yeah, well, it's a very kind of heightened peak experience I would imagine. Yeah. And, it's a very kind of heightened peak experience I would imagine. And when it's like working well, it probably feels like being really high. Yes. But I would imagine the lows are pretty low too. Real low, really low. So where do you land on that now?
Starting point is 00:54:57 After like, we don't have to get into the details of that adventure, but as somebody who's explored that, like what is your kind of, you know, summation on living that lifestyle? I think that I would not be polyamorous ever again. And I think I'm still, juries out on non-monogamy, I think it's something that really scares me. I still am not like, but it scares me,
Starting point is 00:55:27 but I'm always sort of game. Like most things in my life that scare me. For me, I think many people play with don't ask, don't tell in non-monogamous relationships. And that doesn't work for me. It's a tell, tell situation because I think, yeah, I think just based on my personal experience, honesty has to be at the forefront of any relationship.
Starting point is 00:55:59 And with all the therapy that you've done and that you're doing, how do you know, like when you're pursuing, how do you know, like when you're, you know, pursuing a relationship or an experience from a healthy place versus acting out on some, you know, you know, perpetuating, you know, some past trauma or acting out for attention or what have you.
Starting point is 00:56:25 Totally. Yeah. I don't know how you know those things. I mean, I think you know deep down when you're acting from the hungry ghost place. You know, like I will say to my therapist. What is the need that you're trying to meet? Yeah, and I can feel, I'm like, this feels addicting.
Starting point is 00:56:47 You know, like you can tell the difference of, I think the difference is really a center of gravity. You know, when you're experiencing something from a place of groundedness versus a place in which your feet are far off the ground. And from that hungry ghost perspective, can you be okay just with yourself and not in pursuit of those experiences with others?
Starting point is 00:57:19 And coming out of a marriage, a long time relationship and all the peaks and valleys with you know, with Daryl, like where does that land you in terms of how you feel about yourself and how you engage with other people in relationship? You know, it's interesting coming out of something that was really half my life and all of my adult life. It's a difficult thing to distinguish
Starting point is 00:57:47 what you're projecting onto a new relationship versus what that relationship is actually bringing to the table. So I guess that's been my biggest question, but definitely getting post-separation and also post-COVID, whichation and also post-COVID, you know, which was like, wasn't even post-COVID, but it was like when the world began to open up,
Starting point is 00:58:11 you know, everyone, regardless of what they had just come out of was like so desperate for human connection and sexual connection and all of those things that the moment was ripe. And I did have to face a lot of those questions of what's driving this need and is this healthy? And I think for women, especially, those questions are all the more complicated
Starting point is 00:58:38 because I think, you know, historically and societally, there's so much shame around sex and desire and what it looks like to be unapologetically lustful as a woman, which I think the show really- Yeah, the show definitely explores that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that's another huge theme in the work that you do
Starting point is 00:59:11 and kind of carry into how you create your projects from a professional perspective. I mean, in Band-Aid, which was really kind of your coming out party in terms of doing something on your own, like outside of your creative collaboration with Daryl to write and direct your first independent movie. And you got a lot of attention for the fact
Starting point is 00:59:38 that you hired an all female crew, which I don't, had anybody ever done that before? At least at that scale? I don't think so, not at that scale, yeah. So talk a little bit about like your decision to do that, the challenges and actually executing on that and kind of the ripple effect of having done that. I think, well, as I said,
Starting point is 01:00:01 my mother had a great influence on me growing up and really put my tension towards inequity, particularly gender inequity and particularly in media. And so I think when I was given the opportunity to be in charge of my own hiring practices, I wanted to take a really big swing. And as an actor, I had witnessed, I had witnessed that inequity firsthand. I mean, crews to this day still, regardless of the amount of lip service paid to how much is changing in our industry,
Starting point is 01:00:44 they are really white and really male. And yeah, I mean, female directors, like I don't think it's changed that much. Yeah, like directors, I feel like there has been a shift and I'm grateful for it. And I think that goes for, you know, for, you know, the BIPOC community too. Like there is more of a drive for inclusivity
Starting point is 01:01:11 above the line, meaning with directors and screenwriters and whose stories can be told and that's great. But there's a hundred person team below those people. And it's there that it's still really homogenized. And so I wanted to see what I could do to just really like shake up the system because I think if you don't draw a hard line in the sand, you will just continue the pattern
Starting point is 01:01:43 because it's mostly about, people are very unwilling to take risks on those with less experience. And those with less experience don't have an opportunity to get more experience because no one will take the risk on them. And so it's this- Yeah, there's a lot of money on the line.
Starting point is 01:02:00 And there's a lot of money and the stakes are high. And so that experience was incredible, like truly incredible to have all women surrounding me on that project, especially because it was my first time directing and I was also acting and writing. And it was, we shot Band-Aid in 12 days, which was insane.
Starting point is 01:02:22 Only 12 days? Yeah. I didn't know it was that short. We had so little money. That's crazy. And the fear that I found in my department heads who were also women in breaking their own patterns, cause they're like, I don't know,
Starting point is 01:02:39 but my second is a dude I've worked with for 12 years. Like you gotta let me work with him. We have a shared language, he's gonna. And I was just like, I'm so sorry, but you can't. And in the end, I think everyone was really grateful that they had been pushed beyond their comfort zones. And not from the perspective of making some sort of sociopolitical stance, but because of the process,
Starting point is 01:03:09 the process was really revelatory. And I remember like the day after we wrapped, my assistant director went on to a new project and was the only woman on the project. And we were sort of living in this utopia. And, and so I think that the fall from grace was really difficult. It's changing incrementally. I do think it's changing incrementally, but it, it requires intentionality and, and a willingness to take risks, which I hate calling them,
Starting point is 01:03:47 but it is what one would view as a risk in hiring someone that might have less experience than their white male counterpart. Yeah, and also a risk given that this was really your first time directing, right? Like there's a lot on the line for you career wise in terms of what's gonna happen next. So for you career wise in terms of, you know, what's going to happen next. So for you to say, it's one thing like, oh, I've been doing this for
Starting point is 01:04:10 a long time. Like now I'm going to, I'm finally going to do this. I have cred and all of that. But like you were, you know, just at the beginning of trying to establish cred in that world. And for you to say, no, I'm going to do this is bold, right? And then to have your department heads, you know, have to do that because then you're in a conversation around like values versus like the quality of the film. Like the quality of the film is gonna suffer because the communication between the department heads and the people underneath them, isn't gonna be functional.
Starting point is 01:04:42 That's gonna affect you. And it's great that you hired all these women, but if the movie sucks, you're not gonna get another chance to do this, right? And the whole project kind of collapses on top of itself. Yeah, and that's what stops progress from happening. Because I think that's like any sort of archaic institution that we're trying to poke holes in right now
Starting point is 01:05:04 is the idea that, but this works, but this is what we know. We can't change it because that everything's gonna fall apart. And it's like, when you change it, actually the opportunities for greatness are so much bigger. And it was amazing to sort of have empirical proof of that. And again, like-
Starting point is 01:05:29 But there is a ballsiness for you being still a newcomer to do that as opposed to an established, credible director with a track record of generating box office. You know what I mean? Like, so that's pretty fucking cool. And ballsy and courageous. It was cool.
Starting point is 01:05:49 I mean, again, like, you know, with Slip, like there's no reason anyone should have trusted me to direct every single episode, you know? Like that's a crazy thing for me to say. I'm gonna do this on my first series that I've created. It's a risk. Like I'd never, I directed a pilot. It didn't go to series.
Starting point is 01:06:12 I had a track record, but I do think you kind of have to, it requires a huge amount of like humility and confidence. Where does that confidence come from? Is that your mom? Yeah, well, yeah, my mom made really bold and ballsy things in her work, not things, but she was definitely a disruptor. I think she was a disruptor without,
Starting point is 01:06:50 I'm sorry, mom, a sense of business. And so I think I saw that as a cautionary tale and said, how can I become a disruptor and be a player like that is taken seriously in the industry. Not very many people can do that. Like artists are not supposed to be business people. That's why there's managers and business managers and all these other people to kind of, you know,
Starting point is 01:07:14 create guardrails around them to allow them to create while, you know, kind of providing some stability and infrastructure. Yeah, but you have to be, like, there's no, even as a director, like, if you don't make your day, you know, however, a 12 hour day, you're not gonna get hired again, generally speaking. And so you have to, and you're also in a,
Starting point is 01:07:40 in an administrative position, right? You are the boss of a huge crew of people. And so the idea of like the purity of the artistic experience is kind of bullshit sadly. And I think if you can't toggle those two worlds, that's where you get into trouble. And it's what I witnessed in my upbringing. And I think I've tried my best to toggle both worlds. It does require-
Starting point is 01:08:07 It's a world of compromise, right? Yeah, it's like, yeah. Compromise is so loaded a word. And that's always the line you're towing because you have to be able to play the game, but you also have to be able to trust your gut when something is- Choose your battles.
Starting point is 01:08:30 Is a betrayal of the vision or your integrity as an artist. And that's something I think that is only learned in time. What's the difference between directing a movie and being a showrunner on a TV show? There's a lot more episodes. Yeah. There's so much more room. I mean, you're kind of like Manning.
Starting point is 01:09:01 You know, it's sort of, to me, it feels like maybe the difference between, I don't know, going out on an expedition with a smaller group of people versus like captaining like an aircraft carrier or something like, right? There's a lot of people, there's so many more moving parts. Yeah. The puzzle is much more complicated.
Starting point is 01:09:25 Yeah, Roku didn't green light a second season, the puzzle is much more complicated. Yeah. Roku didn't green light a second season, but I did green light a second season of scripts. So I wrote the entire first season alone, but the second season I ran my first writer's room. And so that was really the conventional experience of being a showrunner. And that was really thrilling and cool.
Starting point is 01:09:47 Again, it is both administrative and creative and it's not dissimilar to directing in that there's a singular vision that a bunch of other visions are there to service. And I think your job as both a showrunner and director is to create an environment in which all of those visions are in harmony and conversation and and that obviously there's going to be a hierarchy but I think that's like something that I work really hard at to create,
Starting point is 01:10:30 yeah, a space in which everyone's artistry is showcased and that is deeply felt because I think that's when people do their best work. But it's a different skillset. The challenge of writing and directing your own independent film feels like a journey into the soul. And it's about expressing your vision and running a writer's room is about managing people and making sure that you're communicating adequately so that whatever is in your mind is being expressed by a collective group of people, right? Who are sharing, you know,
Starting point is 01:11:01 by a collective group of people, right? Who are sharing, you know, that sensibility and are able to translate that vision or those ideas onto paper and onto film and maintain like the tone that you've set, right? So it's like that's people skills versus like, you know, my creative genius skill. Yeah, but I think the thing that people don't talk about, or maybe they do,
Starting point is 01:11:29 those same skills are very much a play as a director, even on an indie film, because it, you know, it's like, there are so many personalities and egos to manage. And a lot of the work is about creating that sort of like symbiosis that is a total wild social experiment. That oftentimes is disastrous. How are we sharing this vision together?
Starting point is 01:12:05 Yeah, or how do I communicate my vision so that everyone is on board to be servicing it while not feeling hemmed in or that their vision is not like of equal merit? Do you know what I mean? Like it's that line because, and I think in a writer's room, you have that same thing of when someone,
Starting point is 01:12:30 you want to create an environment in which every idea comes to the table and is met with intrigue and curiosity and also have the wherewithal to say, and yet that has no place here. And that's really hard, especially for a person who's, you know, a people pleaser or codependent in any way. Right, right, right, right.
Starting point is 01:12:53 Yeah, yeah, interesting. After Band-Aid, you stepped up and kind of took a crack at a bigger budget with with craft, right? Craft legacy. Craft legacy, yeah. Like kind of resurfacing this cult classic. But that was much more of a studio kind of movie, right? Like, did you go into that thinking,
Starting point is 01:13:21 well, I'm gonna hire an all woman crew for this as well and meet with resistance with that? Or what was the process of cracking that thing open? Well, even with that film, clearly it was based on an existing property. Stakes were very high because the fans of that existing property are really intense. Yeah, hardcore,
Starting point is 01:13:47 goth community. Yeah. Gonna hold you to task. Yeah, and I was working within the studio system as an independent filmmaker for the first time. Daryl and I had worked with Fox Searchlight together, but this was really my first foray as I had individuated from our creative partnership. So it just comes with such a set, a new set of challenges. It still was the writing process for
Starting point is 01:14:15 me. I had to go in and pitch on it. I had to pitch to, to Jason Blum at Blumhouse and to the execs at Columbia and Sony. And my take was still, my way in is always personal, like even with an existing property. So it was really my story of my own adolescence and then add a little witchcraft. But of me living with my mom, just the two of us of me living with my mom, just the two of us and being in this sort of divinely feminine space and then her getting a boyfriend and forcing me to move in with him and his three sons,
Starting point is 01:14:54 which was quite a toxic masculine space at really such a crucial juncture in my own adolescence and coming into my own womanhood. And so that was my take. And then I added a bunch of bells and whistles to it. And yeah, that process, there are so many more cooks in the kitchen and there's so much more compromise.
Starting point is 01:15:22 And there's, yeah, even when there's more money on the line, there's still never enough money, you know, because I was making a big movie that required completely new tools for me as a filmmaker. So it was a very challenging experience. And I think part of me writing all of the first season of slip after that experience was a protective measure. Taking it back. Yeah, I needed to.
Starting point is 01:15:57 Yeah. And I needed to know that I could. And yeah, then to see that I was continuously given that protection by Roku and T-Time, my producers, which is Dakota Johnson's company. Like it was really, yeah, a very nourishing counterpoint. So how do you know if you're gonna get a second season? Depends on how well it does. We'll find out end of May, yeah.
Starting point is 01:16:28 So like as of the date of this recording, it hasn't come out yet. No, April 21st. Yeah, April 21st, all seven episodes drop. So hopefully people will binge it and Roku will. So they're all gonna drop at the same time? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart. Yeah, I wrote it to and Roku will. So they're all gonna drop at the same time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart.
Starting point is 01:16:47 Yeah, I wrote it to be binged. Yeah. So. Yeah, and they're half hour episodes. Yeah. You know. Yeah, they're easy. Yeah, I'm really excited. It's such a wild experience, like sharing something after it's lived inside you
Starting point is 01:17:03 for so long. What does that feel like? Vulnerable? It feels a bit out of body, like very vulnerable. This is the most exposed. Yeah, you're very exposed. Let's just say you're very exposed. I'm very exposed. So yeah, I definitely feel scared and I feel excited.
Starting point is 01:17:28 And there's so much anticipatory sort of adrenaline that, yeah, it'll be interesting. There's always a postpartum that happens after it comes out because it is a birth. Sure. And the high of the release is so wild and wildly vulnerable. And then you sort of have to figure out what's next.
Starting point is 01:18:00 Yeah. What is the creative process look like for you? I've had Steven Pressfield in here and I've had Robert McKee and all these people who come in and talk about, you know, the kind of art of creation and the kind of brass tacks of what it means to sit down and give birth to an idea. So how do you, like, what are your daily habits
Starting point is 01:18:23 or your practices around like, you know, creating these scripts or turning these ideas that you have into reality? You know, I don't know where, I have been talking about it and it's sort of an embarrassing way to talk about it, but it does feel like there's some sort of cosmic download. Like, I don't know when I, when people ask me the inception of these ideas for the projects that I write, I really don't, I don't have an inception point. I don't have a memory of
Starting point is 01:18:56 when it came to be. It generally happens in a sort of liminal space. It's like upon waking or sleeping or in a shower. It's when my mind is given permission to turn off. I'll get an idea and generally then it will sit. I'll sort of let it incubate for a year or two, usually because I'm working on something else. But when it persists. But when it persists, I know. You're like, I need to pay attention to that.
Starting point is 01:19:26 Yeah, I've never been impulsive. Like I've never gotten an idea and been like, and we're writing. I sort of let it, because also, as I said, like so many of those ideas are based in big questions. So I also wanna have some time to figure out what the question is and what the facets of it are that I want to explore. But I don't have like a daily practice when it's time to write and my body knows it's time to write,
Starting point is 01:19:56 it's very clear to me. And then I will write incessantly for until I have an entire script. And I'm a fast writer, but I won't, it'll be all day, every day. I'm not an early riser. So I'll wake up and I will generally just go right to my computer, which isn't the healthiest thing. And then I'll just write for, you know, eight hours or something.
Starting point is 01:20:26 And then, and I'll keep going until it's done. And then generally when it's done, I like, I have to have nothing to do with it for a week. And I'll send it to like a trusted group of friends. And it'll usually take them a couple of weeks to read. And then in that time, once I get their notes, and it'll usually take them a couple of weeks to read. And then in that time, once I get their notes, I'll have at least enough distance
Starting point is 01:20:50 to then be able to revisit it and go, Oh yeah, this needs to change, that needs to change. But yeah, that's generally my process for writing. And then once I've got enough notes and feel it's ready, I'll send it to my team and go like, all right, let's strategize. How do we get this made? Which is an impossible thing to do,
Starting point is 01:21:13 which is why I've made so many things independently. Yeah. Yeah. So a burst writer, but in the interim, when you're kind of collating these thoughts or there's ruminations around things that are recurring, do you like have a notebook and take notes?
Starting point is 01:21:30 Do you use like the notes app on your phone? Like when something you're driving and you're in traffic, we live in Los Angeles and you're like, oh shit, like, well, I need to remember this. Like, do you have any of that kind of stuff? Yeah, I have so many notes in my notes app. I also try to talk about it. Like if I have an idea, I'll try to, cause that kind of,
Starting point is 01:21:53 I think it's sort of cements it in a way, if I can say like, I had this idea for something today to a friend or a partner or my parents, sounding boards are really helpful. They can stress test it. Yeah. And then also it cements it in your awareness. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:22:10 It makes it more real. Yeah, totally. I have a new movie that has been percolating for many years. I've been doing some of that stress testing it and just talking it through lately. And yeah, I find the creative process so fascinating in that way, because it's so different for every person. And how do you know whether one of these ideas
Starting point is 01:22:34 is a TV show like Slip or a movie? Is it just how much runway is there to this story and what's the best medium? Because we're in this weird time where we've blurred the lines. I mean, what is television? I mean, it's not even really a thing. It's like, it's storytelling.
Starting point is 01:22:54 Like what's the best medium to tell the best version of this story? And then kind of like, you know, fitting that to the right distribution platform for that. Yeah, Slip was designed to be a TV show. And I guess I knew that when, but I think- Well, there's an episodic nature to it. Yeah, and I think I also know
Starting point is 01:23:18 what medium I'm looking to work in. So I knew that I wanted to create my own show. And I think then it was like, okay, what is that show? And what narrative lends itself to something episodic? And yeah, I think next up is a movie. I also mentioned interested in writing a book and that's been something that I've always wanted to do. So yeah, like different mediums excite me,
Starting point is 01:23:43 especially ones that I'm less familiar with. So is it, it's not just the story, it's like, okay, I've done this, but I haven't done this thing over here yet, right? Yeah, yeah. Do you have that? Mm-hmm. I don't know, do I have that?
Starting point is 01:24:00 I don't know, I've been doing this thing for a long time. You know what I mean? I'm trying to stretch in a few other areas. I'm trying to get another book together. Yeah, but when you write, like, is it, are you like, okay, I wanna push myself in this. Well, certainly, yeah. I mean, I look back on stuff as any creative person does
Starting point is 01:24:19 on things they've done in the past and you're like, really dude? So yeah, trying to grow and kind of meet the moment in a new and better way for sure, right? Yeah, I think it's the only way is to figure out, yeah, how to grow as an artist is to do things that you don't know how to do. Right, and to not be so afraid of the thing that scares you
Starting point is 01:24:49 that it paralyzes you from exploring it. Yeah. And I think that gets harder with success because it's easier to keep doing the thing. Like you could just be, like you're crushing as an actor right now, you could just be doing, you know, like getting cast in whatever.
Starting point is 01:25:07 Oh God, it's so hard. It doesn't look that way from the outside. It looks like you're getting cast in there. You're showing up in everything. Oh, thanks. Right now. Yeah, I mean, it's a nice moment because I was able to act in brilliant directors films
Starting point is 01:25:24 and only do that and then create my own stuff. And that's such a nice thing to be able to do. But I mean, the amount of films I'm not acting in, do you mean versus the ones that I get? It's the ratios is impossible. And so it's so nice to be able to create my own work rather than sit and wait for someone else to give me the opportunity.
Starting point is 01:25:47 Right, because you can exert some agency, right? As opposed to being reactive to whatever comes to you. Yeah, and to write the roles I wanna play. And unfortunately, like in this industry, the lists are very small. Again, the intersection of art and commerce, like the lists are very small of what, the intersection of art and commerce, like the lists are very small of what actors can get something financed.
Starting point is 01:26:09 I am not on those lists, at least not yet. And so like, it's an uphill battle to get cast, especially now that like Instagram influencers are of value, like know, like the pool, the casting pool is like even more big and daunting. So yeah, for me to be able to write the characters that I'm dying to play is like a total life saver. So how does it work?
Starting point is 01:26:39 Like do you, your agent calls you and says, so-and-so wants to meet with you or will you audition for this part or this director is thinking of you for this or what is that experience like? I'm still auditioning. She says resentfully. I do have a body of work that could be called upon
Starting point is 01:27:04 if one wanted to, but I am still auditioning. So like with Ari Aster's movie, Beau's Afraid that's coming out, or that's out now, I auditioned, I put myself on tape. So did you go after it? No. Were you like, I want this part or I want this? No, my team like bless them, brought it to me
Starting point is 01:27:30 and was like, this is an Ari Aster movie and I'm his biggest fan. But I wasn't given the script. So I had to fly completely blind. And when you see the movie, you'll see, it's like a really complicated character. So I had no context. And I just had to use my director brain
Starting point is 01:27:53 to go like, what's happening? So wait, you auditioned without a script? Yeah. How do you even know what you're doing then? You play like Joaquin Phoenix's, the young Joaquin's mother, right? Yeah, I play Joaquin Phoenix's, the young Joaquin's mother, right? Yeah, I play Joaquin's mother. So it just came out like today, I think, right?
Starting point is 01:28:11 I wish I had seen it before talking to you, but sorry, go ahead. No, it's, yeah. Oftentimes with like auteurs, unless you're being given an offer for a role, they'll be really secretive around the script. So I've had to do that before, but this one was particularly challenging as a role.
Starting point is 01:28:37 And Ari's dialogue is so brilliant, but it can be quite obtuse, you know? So yeah, I put myself on tape and it was sort of a, like whenever I put myself on tape, I'm like, you know, we'll see, I'm not hopeful. And then, yeah, I got the call that Ari wanted to meet with me and when we met, he offered me the part I thought we were meeting, you know, just as a meeting.
Starting point is 01:29:03 But that was just the most thrilling thing in the world. And to get to be in his orbit and to get to witness his mastery of his craft, like I shot that before slip, it was really inspiring. And yeah, but, and same with Zach Raff's movie, who I know was on the pod. Right. I auditioned, I put myself on tape and got the part.aff's movie who I know was on the pod. Right. I auditioned, I put myself on tape and got the part.
Starting point is 01:29:28 That's how it happened. Yeah. Yeah, you were great. Yeah, thanks. I loved that you played Florence's sponsor. Sponsor, yeah. And you were like no bullshit with her. Yeah, no.
Starting point is 01:29:40 You know what I mean? Yeah. And I told Zach, I've seen the movie a couple of times now, like he did a really good job of being authentic to what that world and that experience is like for somebody who isn't part of that world. And also Florence who doesn't come from that subculture. I mean, she's a fucking genius.
Starting point is 01:30:05 It's unbelievable what she's capable of, like the pathos that she's able to bring to the screen just with her face is unbelievable. Yeah, it's an unbelievable performance and it's so beautifully directed and written. Yeah, it was really cool to be a part of both of those films because also, you know, you create these little families
Starting point is 01:30:31 and now I consider all those people my friends, which is so cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that movie is beautiful. And you know, this isn't like a film podcast. So there's a lot of people who aren't like, you know, Cine East. So for those that don't know, like, you know,
Starting point is 01:30:47 people listen to Zach, but maybe people don't know who Ari Aster is. I mean, this guy, I mean, Hereditary, Midsommar, I think Midsommar is just one of the most brilliant movies I've ever seen. And again, Florence Pugh, just like crushing in this movie that is unlike anything you've ever seen. It's equal parts beautiful and horrifying and confusing.
Starting point is 01:31:09 And I mean, just the kind of number of conflicting emotions that you experience watching this movie. So the anticipation of his newest movie, "'Beau is Not Afraid' is at a peak, right? And all I've seen is the trailer. What a gift that you're able to participate in this movie. Like, I just can't, I can't wait to see it. And I really believe that this guy is like, you know
Starting point is 01:31:34 he's among the greats. And he's only at the beginning of his career. Yeah, I think he's one of the greatest filmmakers of our time and to witness what he's done with this film is really incredible. It's three hours long. I know it's three hours based on the trailer. Like it's, there's a, you know,
Starting point is 01:31:54 it's obviously this surrealistic, you know, kind of experience of him. Like, I guess he's trying to go visit his mom and like, there's all kinds of craziness ensues, but just based on that alone, it feels very Charlie Kaufman kind of synecdoche New York. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's got like a Coen brothers,
Starting point is 01:32:14 Kaufman-esque vibe for sure. And then, and Ari's mastery of like, the visual cinematic language is really something to behold. Like I highly recommend seeing it in a theater. It is so incredible. And Joaquin's performance is incredible. I mean, the whole cast is amazing,
Starting point is 01:32:36 but it's, yeah, it's an epic sort of demented dark comedy. And what is it like, like when, All right, so Ari Aster, genius. What does that look like on a day-to-day basis? What is the experience of working with an auteur who has that level of command and vision? I mean, it is like a masterclass. Because I was in front of the camera and I didn't wanna be like annoying
Starting point is 01:33:06 and like shadow him when I wasn't on camera. But you are a director also, right? I'm sure you're like paying attention to everything with some level of hyper vigilance. Yeah, I mean, what's, I think one of the main things that I took away from that experience was the intentionality of his shots,
Starting point is 01:33:28 like how much he fits into one frame is really like unbelievable and inspiring and inspired. His mastery of tone is something that I am also always trying to navigate and going between comedy and, and deeply felt scenes and horror. And it's like an amazing absurdity. Yeah. But something that I really took away from it was his sense of play. And I think, you know, in sort of, it's aligned with what we've been talking about, um, with what I set out to create in the environment on my sets, like
Starting point is 01:34:14 stakes are so high, we're doing really intense scenes. He does a lot of takes, um, but it never feels like punishing or exacting. It feels fun and like experimental and that there's so much room because he has a sort of, I mean, he has a complete command over what he's doing, but there is like a childlike energy that is so exciting to be around and allows for, I guess guess just a lot of breathing room
Starting point is 01:34:46 in terms of performance as an actor. And so that was really inspiring. And what is it like to work with Joaquin? I mean, there's such a mythos that like surrounds that guy. I didn't really get to work with him. I only have one tiny scene in which that we shared, but I found him to be lovely.
Starting point is 01:35:09 Him and Ari had an amazing working relationship and we just premiered the film and yeah, he was so sweet. We hadn't really gotten to know each other. He came up to me and talked to me about my performance. Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. I saw some photos or videos of the premiere with you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm determined to get that guy in the podcast. Oh man. He's, he's such a brilliant actor. Um, so yeah, just to, to share any space with him on screen is really a dream
Starting point is 01:35:39 come true. It's pretty exciting. Yeah. That movie's gonna come, it's gonna make a big splash. I think so. I think so, right? Yeah. Yeah. What is it about A24? Like they just seem to be- Magic dust. Like their fingers on the pulse of everything's like iced, the level of understanding like what's gonna work
Starting point is 01:36:04 and kind of being at the cutting edge of not just what's cool, but what's of the highest caliber in terms of what's gonna work in the marketplace, but also what is most interesting creatively, I think is almost some kind of magic that they're doing right now, right? I know.
Starting point is 01:36:21 Even with like Beef, which just came out, which is just like crushing. And I guess they've done some TV in the past, but this is really their entree into television. Yeah, you know, I guess it is their commitment to not being fear driven, right? Like if you were to- There's a courage to what they're doing.
Starting point is 01:36:45 Yeah, they're trusting filmmakers in the singularity of their vision, whatever medium, and I think that is a testament to what creates the best work and what speaks to people. Like, I think that's what's so interesting about when you look at like the studio system, there's such an attention to creating something for a mass audience.
Starting point is 01:37:12 And I think what's misguided about the process a lot of the time is that the idea is that you're supposed to water it down. And when you see a company like A24 who instead is sharpening the singularity of a vision and that's what's actually speaking to such mass audiences, like what a great lesson. I think that's so true.
Starting point is 01:37:33 Yeah. I think that's so true. I think that's a powerful lesson for anybody who's thinking about birthing something creative, right? Like the resonance of it is found in the specificity, not in the, and the specificity is what creates the universal connection, not the other way around. And by watering it down and making it seemingly,
Starting point is 01:37:59 you know, kind of relatable to everybody, you've lost, you know, it's so general and diffuse that it doesn't connect at all. Like it's working across purposes with that goal. And it's like the more specific detailed to somebody's lived experience or creative expression, that's what works, right? Absolutely. It seems weird that that would be radical
Starting point is 01:38:27 or kind of like the contrary, the hot take. I know. You know what I mean? But obviously it's working with them. Yeah, yeah and the proof is really in the pudding. I mean, I also think like for anyone in any creative pursuit, making something with an audience in mind to me is always sort of like the death knell, you know?
Starting point is 01:38:57 Like make something that you wanna, like what is the story you wanna tell? And that's what you put out into the world. Because when you start to be, I think, product-oriented over process-oriented, yeah, it can get you into some trouble. And yet it is a business. And there are people sitting around conference room tables
Starting point is 01:39:22 trying to figure out if it's gonna work in China or it's gonna work in this other place. And those are the things that dictate budgets. Yeah, I mean, when I say it's like, figure out what story you wanna write. If I was talking to like a filmmaker, I would say, figure out what story you wanna write, what story you have to write.
Starting point is 01:39:43 And then think about a way to make it cheaply. You know, like I'm not taking business out of the equation because I think you do have to be pragmatic. If you're a first time filmmaker and you write some huge epic, it's never gonna get made. And that might be the story you think you need to tell, but if you distilled that story down,
Starting point is 01:40:00 what's the contained version of it? And then go figure out a way to make that because every single project I've ever made has had 1000 no's before there's been any yes. So how do you like weather the rejection? Because you're in a business, you've become very successful in this business, but it's a business of, like you said, mostly no's.
Starting point is 01:40:27 And being able to kind of like hold true to yourself and what you're doing and not get overly dissuaded by that. I guess it comes back to confidence, which is hard, right? Like, cause no's will diminish your confidence. I've always had something where I don't believe them. It doesn't mean that I don't take notes, right? Like, if someone says no, I have to look at what they're saying no to and what I can shift, but it requires such tenacity to keep going.
Starting point is 01:41:13 And that tenacity is ultimately like an unwavering sense of self or a sense that you have something that deserves a voice. And I don't know how to cultivate that necessarily, except for to just keep going. I think you just have to keep going. And I think making your own work is really important. Like Daryl and I made work in the face of 1000 no's
Starting point is 01:41:48 by just going and doing it ourselves. And you know, that's a real stress test of the work. Yeah, I feel like just in looking at like the projects that you guys did together, it feels like you just pulled the shit out of your ass. Like you're like, well, we're gonna go make this movie. And I'm like, what? And then like somehow you're like out in the street,
Starting point is 01:42:10 like shooting, like you just, you progress as if, like even if all the pieces aren't together, like you're just in motion moving forward. And you know, when you create that momentum, somehow everything else, you know, those other problems that seem insurmountable start to get resolved. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 01:42:30 I mean, it's like manifesting, I guess 101 is like, I am doing it. You can tell me no and I can take a note and shift something or you can tell me no and say, well, we have something else like it, which is what you're always hearing. You know, like, and it's like, well, but do you? And can't there be many things that are in the same world,
Starting point is 01:42:53 but have different voices behind them? And yeah, I guess it is about in some ways pulling it out of your ass. What's the like worst piece of advice that you've gotten from some kind of studio person or I'm sure you've heard some bangers. Yeah. Oh God.
Starting point is 01:43:18 We're not naming names. I know, I'm trying to think of like worst piece of advice. Like worst piece of advice, sadly, like it's almost more diminishing than bad advice. It's really just- Ad hominem. Yeah. I think it was more when I was young and I've named this name before and I'll name him again. But I went to David Mamet's acting school and I was 18 and he came and gave a guest class and told me that my shelf life was short as an actor.
Starting point is 01:43:59 And that's probably the worst piece of advice I've ever been given. If you could call it advice. Oh no. It's like someone just took like a steaming shit. Yeah. And like, yeah, oh man, that could not have been fun. No, but you know, then later he saw a sketch
Starting point is 01:44:23 that I had written and he was notoriously cruel and said, who wrote that? And I said, I did. And he said, you should write a feature. So, you know. Interesting. You should write him a letter now. This is my letter to him.
Starting point is 01:44:36 Okay. David. Dear David. Zoe is on the scene. Conversely, what about like some of the best advice that you've gotten over the years? Well, I guess the best advice I ever was given was by a producer named Alex Madigan,
Starting point is 01:45:03 who took me to coffee and said, you should direct. And I didn't know that. And it's like a wildly simple piece of advice. But I think that it does take sometimes, I think, for many people, but especially for women, and especially for women in film, like this sense of confidence, even if you don't know, or if you haven't gone to film school, if you don't have every answer, you don't know every lens,
Starting point is 01:45:31 that someone saw that and said, go do it, you got it. And that's really all it took. To have that outside external voice, see something in you that maybe you're not ready to see in yourself. Yeah, which I think has happened for me every time. I mean, that David Mamet story was that for me too.
Starting point is 01:45:52 I was writing, but I wasn't like, no, I should go write a feature, you know? And even when I was in high school and I was acting, I was in the chorus of a musical. I had no confidence as an actor and some like parent in the PTA was like, you're really good. You're the one I'm watching in the chorus of a musical. I had no confidence as an actor. And some like parent in the PTA was like, you're really good. You're the one I'm watching in the background.
Starting point is 01:46:09 And so I guess tell people when you think they're talented because it's really meaningful and it's a really hard world across all industries. And those are really character building moments in terms of giving someone, yes, a sense of value in the craft they might be interested in, but too afraid to pursue. Yeah, I like that.
Starting point is 01:46:38 I think that you don't, yeah, also as somebody who's older, you don't know the impact that your words have on somebody else. And when I reflect back and I remember certain things that certain people said to me, I'm sure they have no memory of, you know, like that nice thing that they said
Starting point is 01:46:56 and those things really can be meaningful. Yeah, yeah. Obviously, So obviously equity and empowerment are really important subjects to you in terms of trying to build on ramps to a career in this business that you're in and kind of changing the landscape. We're still kind of in the wake of Harvey Weinstein
Starting point is 01:47:26 and Me Too and all that kind of stuff. And you've been a really kind of powerful voice in that conversation. What's your sense of kind of changes that have been made, changes that still need to be made? Like, I feel like the whole kind of streaming situation, everything's sort of up in the air and it makes it rife for reinvention and new models.
Starting point is 01:47:53 Like we just saw what Matt Damon and Ben Affleck are doing with artist equity. And basically they've created this new production company where all the crews are participating on an equity basis in these projects. And that's something that's never been done before and it's fucking awesome. And so I think there is real opportunity
Starting point is 01:48:14 to kind of rewrite the rules. And you're somebody who I know thinks a lot about this and has taken action on this. So like, where's your head at with all of that right now? So like, where's your head at with all of that right now? I guess my head is like, I feel hopeful. I do feel hopeful. I think there have been strides that have been made
Starting point is 01:48:39 and I think there's still a really long way to go. And it requires a huge amount of intentionality from the people at the top. And I guess, yeah, my hope is that it won't just be for optics, that people see the actual inherent value in diversifying voices in a room and changing up who's also in charge. But, But it's wild, I think how far we still do have to go. Like I say that I have hope and I do,
Starting point is 01:49:33 but just yesterday I did an interview with like an esteemed publication and the journalist said, what's it like to fake so many orgasms? You must have done that in your real life a bunch too. And I thought, God. Let's get to the real important stuff. So far to go, man.
Starting point is 01:49:53 Like that's top of mind for you to ask me. And I do think in some ways, slip is gonna be an interesting test in terms of what, you know. The discourse will be around it. Yeah, and what, yeah, what the discourse will be around my exploration of sexuality and female pleasure. And I hope that it pushes the envelope in a good way I hope that it pushes the envelope in a good way because I do think that that's a part of it,
Starting point is 01:50:30 you know, like that in the wake of Me Too, which, you know, we're still in many ways, but that I think one of the most threatening things is women's sexuality. I mean, we look at it with women's reproductive rights. It's like the fact that Roe v. Wade has been overturned, it's just unbelievable the power we hold, you know, and how threatening that power is.
Starting point is 01:51:02 and how threatening that power is. And I hope that there's some way to shift the perspective. It's the same thing about equity and inclusivity. It's like this idea that if we change it, it's gonna be a mess or the people who have been in power so long have to feel a threat rather than a sense of excitement at not even, you know, a change of guard,
Starting point is 01:51:38 but like what that could open up for the world at large and for the guard themselves, you know. Or just a paradigm shift in perspective from perceiving it as a threat to perceiving it as the greatest opportunity for growth and, you know, kind of nourishment and economic viability. Yeah, yeah.
Starting point is 01:52:06 And, you know, you look at trans rights just being demolished across the country at the same time as reproductive rights and the same time as racial inequity. And in some ways, you know, the pushback has allowed for so many more voices to come into the fold where, all of these incredible trans advocates
Starting point is 01:52:30 are using their platform to say, we're all in this, and parents of trans kids and all of that. It's like, I feel inspired amidst the sort of bleak atmosphere that we're in, because I do think we're at a crossroads. It's just gonna take some time. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:52:57 Yeah, I feel like the entrenchment around Hollywood the entrenchment around Hollywood specifically is not, under threat is the wrong word, but is being challenged to reimagine itself. And I feel like that's happening in some respects and in other ways, there's a holding on to an old way of doing things, which I guess is natural. This is the way it always is with everything. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:53:34 But I feel like those changes are inevitable. So I'm optimistic and I think it's a really interesting time. Yeah. And for yourself as somebody who's creating in that space, in this space, there's so much more. I mean, the fact that you're like making the show with Roku, like there's so many avenues and opportunities
Starting point is 01:53:55 to do cool things and they're leaving you alone and you're getting to do all this kind of stuff. Like that didn't exist that long ago. And we're at this point now where it's like, there's so much shit. Like I have to go, you know, I have to talk to other people and go online and like, what should I be watching?
Starting point is 01:54:11 Like there's so much great, awesome stuff out there. Whereas it used to just be like, we're just waiting for that one thing for months, you know, to like nourish us. And now we're in this cornucopia of like just amazing art that we can pursue. Yeah, it is an exciting time. And yet the business model of it has changed, right?
Starting point is 01:54:34 There's no syndication money, like all the backend and all that kind of stuff. So all the economics of it are being upended and everyone's trying to figure out like a new way. Yeah, network television is freaking out. As they should be. I mean, that's fucking some broke ass shit right there, right? It's amazing it's still holding on in the way that it is.
Starting point is 01:54:56 Like get over it already. You know what I mean? Or push yourself to make, you know, bolder choices. Right, right. And you say that as somebody who's done the sitcom thing. Yeah. Like it's wild that so many people watch that shit still. So many people.
Starting point is 01:55:12 I know. And you bought me a house, so God bless all those people. Good for you. All right, well, the last thing I wanna kind of pursue with you before releasing you to your life is just, you know, in kind of closing here, I always wanna try to leave people with some inspiration around engaging or reengaging
Starting point is 01:55:34 with their own creativity and their own voice in perhaps a way that people feel like they don't have permission to, like you're in this world, like this is your job, right? But for most people, like they're't have permission to, like you're in this world, like this is your job, right? But for most people, like they're doing other stuff. And I'm of the firm belief that we're all creative beings and we all have a voice and we all have something interesting to say
Starting point is 01:55:55 and there's no one else out there. You know, you are your own, you know, you are a unique being and I'm always encouraging people to kind of explore that and find a way to bring expression to your unique lived experience. So, you know, how do you kind of encourage that in individuals or think about how you do that yourself? Well, I think an exciting thing about this moment
Starting point is 01:56:23 in the world and while social media is a nightmare hellscape, it is also a way for people to see that there are weirdos like them everywhere. I mean, I identify as a weirdo too. When I was growing up, I didn't know necessarily how to find the weirdos or how to feel less alone and what to do with those feelings of alienation. And so I hope that people are emboldened to tell their stories in whatever way they want to, right? Like there's so many modes of self-expression.
Starting point is 01:57:02 in whatever way they want to, right? Like there's so many modes of self-expression, but I think what I've learned in all of my therapies is that depression is when rage is turned inwards or when you're collapsing in on yourself because there's not a mode of expression. And so I'm a firm believer in figuring out what that mode of expression. And so I'm a firm believer in figuring out what that mode of expression is because I do think it's what will save your life.
Starting point is 01:57:34 Yeah, I think that's wise. Rather than pushing it down, finding a way to shine a light on it and expose it in a way and deconstruct it for yourself and share it in a way that creates a sense of bond with the other people who are feeling that way because we all feel alone
Starting point is 01:57:58 in those weird emotions that we have. We all feel alone all the time. And like whenever I'm asked what i want audiences to take away from slip or anything i make i just say i want them to feel less alone because it is why i make things yeah it's the most powerful tool you know and the most and and such a transformative experience as a viewer for me when I see something and feel less alone. That's like, that's why we consume art. I mean, in slip, there is this sense
Starting point is 01:58:33 that you are very alone in this relationship. You know, you're in this, you know, intimate relationship, but there's a severe lack of intimacy and you're trying to figure out like, what am I doing here? You go on this adventure and whatever ensues ensues, but I think there's something universal in that. Like the idea that we're in our lives, but we're always thinking about like,
Starting point is 01:58:57 would our life be better if we were over here as opposed to here? And that's connective tissue that, you know, I think we can all, you know, relate to deeply. Yeah, especially at this moment, you know, sort of post pandemic, it, I think the sense of aloneness is something deeper than we've ever been willing
Starting point is 01:59:24 to really talk about. And I think talking about it is a great thing. I think it is one of the most profound experiences I've had in the aftermath of quarantines that when you ask people how they are, now they actually tell you. Right, that is true, right? They're like, not great.
Starting point is 01:59:49 Life's hard. And that's, I think that's important. Yeah, it's true. Oh, cool, man. I think we did it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Starting point is 02:00:03 It's so nice to be back in this beautiful new space. I love you, Zoe. I love you too. I'm such a fan. And like I said, at the outset, it's been so fun to watch your kind of career take off in the way that it has. It's well-deserved and I can't wait to see what you do next.
Starting point is 02:00:17 So you've got Slip coming by the time this podcast comes out it will be out on Roku. Bo is not afraid in movie theaters, wherever you live, right? Worldwide. Yeah, I think so. And then what else do you have anything else coming out? No, we'll just, if you watch Roku and watch slip season one,
Starting point is 02:00:37 then you'll help me get a season two. All right, there we go. Let's all, let's crowdsource season two for Zoe. There's the deal, right? Yeah. Cool. Cool. Thanks.
Starting point is 02:00:47 Thank you. Yeah. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources
Starting point is 02:01:12 related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com.
Starting point is 02:01:33 If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode
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Starting point is 02:02:14 with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpudiyete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created
Starting point is 02:02:40 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.

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